EVIDENCE 

ON  CONDITIONS 
IN  IRELAND 


COMPRISING 

The    Complete    Testimony, 

Affidavits  and  Exhibits 

Presented  before 

The  American  Commission  on  Conditions 
in  Ireland 


Transcribed  and  Annotated 

by 

ALBERT  COYLE 

Official  Reporter  to  the  Commission 


aoCTOTf    x 


>^SGE  LIBRARY 
8. 


Bliss  Building 
Washington,  D.  C. 


SINCE  the  sole  purpose  for  the  organiza- 
tion of  the  American  Commission  on 
Conditions  in  Ireland  and  the  publication 
of  this  volume  of  Evidence  is  to  let  the 
American  people  know  the  facts  about  the 
Irish  crisis,  will  you  not  render  the  service 
of  bringing  it  to  the  attention  of  your 
friends?  Evidence  on  Conditions  in  Ireland 
may  he  had  for  $1  in  art  paper  covers,  $1.50 
cloth  bound;  and  the  supplemental  Report 
of  the  Commission  (152  pages,  illustrated) 
for  35c  per  copy.  Orders  may  be  sent  to 
Albert  Coyle,  Official  Reporter  to  the  Com- 
mission, Bliss  Building,  Washington,  D.  C. 


3845 


THE  COMMITTEE  OF  ONE  HUNDRED  FIFTY 
ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

The  American  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland  was  selected 
by  and  derives  its  authority  from  a  committee  of  distinguished 
Americans  brought  together  through  the  efforts  of  the  editors  of 
the  New  York  Nation  to  perform  the  service  of  ascertaining  for  the 
American  people  the  truth  about  conditions  in  Ireland,  which  in- 
creasingly menace  the  friendly  relations  that  have  existed  between 
Great  Britain  and  the  United  States.  In  order  to  secure  an  impar- 
tial and  distinguished  body  for  this  investigation,  every  United 
States  Senator,  every  State  governor,  every  member  of  the  higher 
clergy  of  the  Protestant,  Roman  Catholic  and  Jewish  churches,  and 
the  leading  educators,  journalists,  editors,  mayors,  and  publicists 
of  the  country  were  extended  an  invitation  to  become  members  of 
this  committee,  over  150  of  whom  accepted,  including  5  State  gov- 
ernors, 11  United  States  Senators,  13  Congressmen,  the  mayors  of 
15  large  cities,  the  late  Cardinal  Gibbons.  Archbishop  Keane.  7 
Protestant  Episcopal  bishops,  4  Roman  Catholic  bishops.  4  Meth- 
odist bishops,  and  other  eminent  public  men  and  women,  repre- 
senting a  broad  diversity  of  racial  stocks  and  political  and  religious 
beliefs,  and  covering  geographically  36  states  of  the  Union. 

The  personnel  of  the  Committee  of  One  Hundred  Fifty  on  Con- 
ditions in  Ireland  is  as  follows: 

Jane  Addams,  Hull  House,  Chicago,  111. 

Hon.  Charles  F.  Amidon,  U.   S.  District  Judge,  Fargo,   N.   D. 

U.  S.  Senator  Henry  F.  Ashurst,  Prescott,  Arizona. 

Bishop  James  Atkins,  M.  E.  Church,  South,  Nashville,  Tenn. 

Mary  Austin,  writer  and  lecturer.  New  York  City. 

Abby  Scott  Baker,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Governor  Simon  Bamberger,  Salt  Lake  City,  Utah. 

Abraham  Baroff,  International  Ladies'  Garment  Workers'  L:nion.  New- 
York  City. 

Rt.  Rev.  Troy  Beatty,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Tennessee. 

Mayor  C.  F.  Beck,  Akron,  Ohio. 

Mayor  Martin  Behrman,  New  Orleans,  La. 

Fred  G.  Biedenkapp,  Brotherhood  of  Metal  Workers,  New  York. 

William  Harman  Black,  former  member  National  War  Labor  Board,  New- 
York  City. 

Alice  Stone  Blackwell,  Boston,  Mass. 

Harriet  Stanton  Blatch,  New  York  City. 

Lucy  Branham,  New  York  City. 

T.  M.  Budish,  United  Cloth.  Hat,  and  Cap  Makers  of  America,  New  York 
City. 

Rt.  Rev.  Hugh  L.  Burleson,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  South  Dakota. 

Rt.  Rev.  C.  E.  Byrne,  Bishop  of  Galveston,  Texas. 

Governor  Thomas  E.  Campbell,   Phoenix,  Arizona. 

Rt.  Rev.  John  J.  Cantwell,  Bishop  of  Monterey  and  Los  Angeles. 

U.  S.  Senator  Arthur  Capper,  Topeka,  Kansas. 

Governor  Robert  D.  Carey,  Cheyenne,  Wyoming. 

Ill 


IV 

Frank  E.  Carstarphen,  Special  Counsel  for  the  Federal  Government,  New 

York  City. 
J.  J.  Castellini.  merchant,  Cincinnati,  Ohio. 
Parley   P.   Christensen,   Presidential  candidate,   Farmer-Labor    Party,   Salt 

Lake  City,  Utah. 
Professor  Arthur  C.  Cole,  Ohio  State  University,  Columbus,  Ohio. 
George    W.    Coleman,    President    of    the    Open    Forum    National    Council. 

Boston,  Mass. 
Martin  Conboy,  former  Director  of  the  Draft,  New  York  City. 
Henry  W.  L.  Dana,  Cambridge,  Mass. 
Rev.  William  Horace  Day,  former  Moderator  of  the  National  Council  of 

Congregational  Churches  of  U.  S.,  Bridgeport,  Conn. 
Rt.   Rev.    E.    T.   Demby,    P.    E.    Suffragan    Bishop   of    the    Colored    Race. 

Province  of  the  Southwest,  Little  Rock,  Ark. 
Dr.  W.  E.  B.  Du  Bois,  editor  of  The  Crisis,  New  York  City. 
Professor  Horace  A.  Eaton,  Syracuse  University,   Syracuse,  N.  Y. 
Governor  Edward  I.  Edwards,  Trenton,  N.  J. 
John  Lovejoy  Elliott,  Hudson  Guild,  New  York  City. 
Hon.  J.  W.  Folk,  former  Governor  of  Missouri,  Washington,  D.  C. 
Mrs.  Andre  Fouilhoux,  Short  Hills,  N.  J. 

Clemens  J.  France,  former  Collector  of  the  Port  of  Seattle,  Wash. 
Royal  W.  France,  lawyer,  New  York  City. 
Governor  Lynn  J.  Frazier,  Bismarck,  N.  D. 
Zona  Gale,  writer,  Portage,  Wis. 

John  F.  Galvin,  former  Chairman,  Board  of  Water  Supply,  New  York. 
Gilson   Gardner,  Washington  correspondent,   Newspaper   Enterprise  Ass'n. 
His  Eminence  James  Cardinal  Gibbons,  Baltimore,  Md.    (deceased). 
Mayor  C.  P.  Gillen,  Newark,  N.  J. 
Arthur  Gleason,  writer,  New  York  City. 

Hon.  James  H.  Graham,   former  Congressman,   Springfield,   111. 
Mayor  Frank  J.  Hague,  Jersey  City,  N.  J. 
William  Hard,  writer,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Rt.  Rev.  Robert  Le  Roy  Harris,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Marquette,  Mich. 
Dr.  Gillette  Hayden,  Columbus,  Ohio. 

Professor  Carlton  J.  Hayes,  Columbia  University,  New  York. 
Mayor  J.  J.  Hayes,  Vicksburg,  Miss. 

William  Randolph  Hearst,  newspaper  publisher.  New  York  City. 
Charles  B.  Henderson,  former  U.  S.  Senator,  Elko,  Nevada. 
Mayor  Joseph  Herman,  Newport,  Ky. 
Morris   Hillquit,   lawyer,   New  York   City. 
Rabbi  E.  E.   Hirsch,   Professor   of   Rabbinical   Literature   and   Philosophy, 

University  of  Chicago. 
Mayor  Daniel  W.  Hoan,  Milwaukee,  Wis. 
Judge  George  Holmes,  Omaha,   Nebr. 
Rev.    John    Haynes    Holmes,    President    Free    Religious    Association,    New 

York  City. 
Rt.  Rev.  J.  M.  Horner,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Asheville,  N.  C. 
Frederic   C.  Flowe,  former  Commissioner  of   Immigration  of  the   Port  of 

New  York. 
Bishop  John  Hurst,  Methodist   Episcopal  Church,   Baltimore,  Md. 
Mayor  John  F.  Hylan,  New  York  City. 

Dr.  Edmund  J.  James,  President  Emeritus,  University  of  Illinois. 
U.  S.   Senator  Hiram  W.  Johnson,  San  Francisco,   California. 
James    Weldon   Johnson,    Secretary   of   the    National    Association    for    the 

Advancement  of  Colored  People,  New  York  City. 
William    H.   Johnston,   President   International   Association   of    Machinists, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
Rev.  Paul  Jones,  formerly  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Utah,  New  York  City. 
Dr.  David  Starr  Jordan,  Chancellor  Emeritus,   Leland   Stanford  Jr.   Uni- 
versity, California. 
Most  Rev.  James  J.  Keane,  Archbishop  of  Dubuque,  Iowa. 
Mayor  H.  W.  Kiel,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Edwin  P.  Kilroe,  Assistant  District  Attorney,  New  York  City. 
Richard  R.  Kilroy,  editor,  Anaconda  Standard,  Butte,  Mont. 


Dr.  George  W.  Kirchwey,  Head  of  Department  of  Criminology,  New  York 
School  of  Social  Work,  New  York  City. 

Rev.  G.  S.  Lackland,  Denver,  Colo. 

U.   S.  Senator  Robert  M.  La  Follette,  Wisconsin. 

Hon.  F.  H.  La  Guardia,  President  of  the  Board  of  Aldermen,   N.  Y.  City. 

John  S.  Leahy,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Owen  R.  Lovejoy,  General  Secretary,  National  Child  Labor  Committee, 
New  York  City. 

Professor  Robert  Morss  Lovett,  University  of  Chicago. 

Hazel  MacKave,  Director  of  the  Bureau  of  Pageantrv  and  the  Drama, 
Y.  W.  C.  A.,  New  York  City. 

Rabbi  Judah  L.  Magnes,  Chairman  of  the  Executive  Committee,  Jewish 
Community   (Kehillah)   of  New  York  City. 

Mayor  James   B.  McCavitt,  Anaconda,  Mont. 

Allen  McCurdy.  Secretary  of  the  National  Executive  Committee.  Commit- 
tee of  48,  New  York  City. 

U.  S.  Senator  Charles  L.  McNary,  Salem,  Oregon. 

Bertha  H.  Mailly,  Executive  Secretary,  Rand  School  of  Social  Science, 
New  York  City. 

Hon.  Dudley  Field  Malone,  former  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  U.  S. 
Treasury,  New  York  City. 

Basil  M.  Manlv.  Director  of  the  Scripps  Economic  Bureau,  Washington. 
D.  C. 

Mayor  Elliott  Marshall,  St.  Joseph,  Mo. 

Anne  Martin,  publicist,  Reno,  Nev. 

Congressman  William  E.  Mason,  Chicago,  111. 

James  H.  Maurer,  President,  Pennsylvania  State  Federation  of  Labor, 
Harrisburg,   Pa. 

Mrs.  Katherine  M.  Meserole,  Bellport,  Long  Island,  N.  Y. 

John  E.  Milholland,  business  man  and  writer.  New  York  City. 

A.  P.  Moore,  editor  of  the  Pittsburgh  Leader,  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

Mrs.  Agnes  H.  Morey,  Brookline,  Mass. 

Bishop  H.  C.  Morrison,  M.  E.  Church,  South,  Leesburg,  Fla. 

William  J.  Mulligan,  Supreme  Director  of  Knights  of  Columbus.  Thomp- 
sonville.  Conn. 

Mrs.  William   Spencer  Murray,  Catskill,  N.  Y. 

Professor  William  A.  Nitze,  head  of  the  Department  of  Romance  Lan- 
guages and  Literatures,  University  of  Chicago. 

Edward  N.  Nockels,  associate  editor,  The  New  Majority,  Chicago,  111. 

Rt.  Rev.  John  J.  O'Connor,  Bishop  of  Newark,  N.  J. 

Daniel  C.  O'Flaherty,  Richmond,  Va. 

Rt.  Rev.  Charles  T.  Olmsted,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Central  New  York. 

M.  O'Neill.  Akron.  Ohio. 

Rt.  Rev.  Edward  L.  Parsons.  P.  E.  Bishop  Coadjutor  of  California,  San 
Francisco,  Calif. 

Captain  Julius  C.  Peyser,  Washington,  D.  C. 

U.  S.  Senator  James  D.  Phelan,  San  Francisco,   Calif. 

Rev.  Watson   L.  Phillips,   Shelton,  Conn. 

Amos  R.  E.  Pinchot,  lawyer  and  publicist,  New  York  City. 

Mayor  Willis  H.   Plunkett,   Phoenix,  Ariz. 

Rev.  Levi  M.  Powers,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mayor  George  A.  Quigley.  New  Britain,  Conn. 

Mayor  Edward  W.  Quinn,  Cambridge,  Mass. 

Congressman  Charles  E.  Randall,  Kenosha,  Wis. 

U.  S.  Senator  Joseph  E.  Ransdell,  Louisiana. 

Mrs.  James  Rector,  Columbus,  Ohio. 

Raymond  Robins,  formerly  Commissioner  in  command  of  the  American 
Red  Cross  Mission  to  Russia,  Chicago,  111. 

Gilbert  E.  Roe,  lawyer,  New  York  City. 

Mrs.  John  Rogers,  Jr.,  New  York  City. 

Rev.  John  A.  Ryan,  Professor  of  Theology,  Catholic  University  of  Amer- 
ica, Washington,  D.  C. 


VI 

Professor  Ferdinand  Schevill,  Professor  of  Modern  History,  University 
of  Chicago. 

Rose  Schneidermann,  Woman's  Trade  Union  League,  New  York. 

Mavor  Cornell  Schrieber,  Toledo,  Ohio. 

Hon.  R.  O.  Sharon,  Peoria,  111. 

Congressman  Isaac  R.  Sherwood,  Toledo,  Ohio. 

Dr.  John  S.  Simon.  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

J.  C.  Skemp,  International  Union  of  Painters  and  Decorators,  Lafayette, 
Indiana. 

Mayor  E.  P.  Smith,  Omaha,  Nebr. 

Mrs.  Anna  Garlin  Spencer,  minister,  educator,  White  Plains,  N,  Y. 

U.  S.  Senator  Selden  P.  Spencer,  St.  Louis,  Missouri. 

Emma  Steghagen,  Woman's  Trade  Union  League,  Chicago.  111. 

Doris  Stevens,  New  York  City. 

Mayor  Peter  F.  Sullivan,  Worcester.  Mass. 

Rev.  Norman  M.  Thomas,  editor  of  The  World  Tomorrow,  New  York  City. 

Richard  C.  Tolman,  Associate  Director  Fixed  Nitrogen  Research  Labora- 
tory, War  Department,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Albert  B.  Unger,  Assistant  District  Attorney,  New  York  City. 

Hon.  Tames  K.  Vardaman,  former  U.  S.  Senator.  Jackson,  Miss. 

Mrs.  Henry  Villard,  Dobbs  Ferry,  N.  Y. 

Congressman  Edward  Voight,  Sheboygan,  Wis. 

John  H.  Walker,  President  Illinois  State  Federation  of  Labor,  Springfield, 
Illinois. 

U.  S.  Senator  David  I.  Walsh.  Boston,  Mass. 

J.  Barnard  Walton,  General  Secretary,  Advancement  Committee,  General 
Conference  of  the  Religious  Society  of  Friends,  Philadelphia,  Pa. 

Dr.  James  P.  Warbasse,  President  of  the  Cooperative  League  of  America. 
New  York  City. 

William  Allen  White,  editor  of  the  Emporia  Gazette,  Emporia,  Kansas. 

Rt.  Rev.  Cortlandt  Whitehead,  P.  E.  Bishop  of  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood,  lawyer.  New  York  City. 

PERSONNEL  OF  THE  COMMISSION  ON  CONDITIONS 
IN  IRELAND 

The  foregoing  members  of  the  Committee  on  Conditions  in  Ire- 
land elected  from  their  number  a  commission  of  five,  with  power  to 
enlarge  its  personnel  by  calling  other  members  of  the  parent  com- 
mittee to  aid  it  in  the  prosecution  of  a  public  inquiry  into  conditions 
in  Ireland.  It  was  thus  assured  that  the  Commission  entrusted  with 
the  task  of  making  this  important  inquiry  should  be  composed  of 
persons  of  national  distinction  and  of  ability  and  integrity  beyond 
question.  The  Commission  as  finally  constituted  consists  of  the 
following  members: 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood,  Chairman — Lawyer  and  publicist.  A  graduate 
of  Haverford  College,  Pennsylvania,  and  Columbia  University  Law  School, 
New  York  City,  Mr.  Wood  was  admitted  to  the  bar  of  the  State  of  New 
York  in  1899,  and  has  distinguished  himself  in  the  practice  of  law  in  New 
York  City.  Besides  his  professional  attainments,  Mr.  Wood  has  devoted 
himself  unselfishly  to  a  number  of  humanitarian  causes.  He  is  a  member 
of  the  American  Civil  Liberties  Union,  vice-president  of  the  Board  of 
Trustees  of  Fisk  University,  Nashville,  Tennessee ;  member  of  the  Board 
of  Managers  of  Haverford  College ;  president  of  the  National  Urban 
League  for  the  Improvement  of  Race  Relations  Within  the  United  States  ; 
and  an  influential  member  of  the  Society  of  Friends  (Quakers).  Mr. 
Wood  has  traveled  extensively  in  Europe,  Asia,  and  Africa;  he  is  one  of 
the  few  Americans  who  have  toured  England  on  a  cricket  team ;  and  he 
has  visited  Ireland  a  half-dozen  times  to  study  the  development  of  the 
Irish  Cooperative  Movement. 


VII 

Dr.  Frederic  C.  Howe,  J 'ice-Chair man — Author,  attorney,  economist. 
Dr.  Howe  is  one  of  the  foremost  American  authorities  in  political  econ- 
omy. His  public  career  began  with  the  practice  of  law  in  Cleveland,  Ohio, 
serving  in  turn  as  city  councillor  and  state  senator.  He  was  appointed 
special  United  States  Commissioner  to  investigate  municipal  ownership  in 
Great  Britain  (1905)  ;  professor  of  law  at  the  Cleveland  College  of  Law; 
special  lecturer  on  Taxation  at  Western  Reserve  University;  lecturer  on 
Municipal  Administration  and  Politics  at  the  University  of  Wisconsin ; 
director  of  People's  Institute,  New  York  (1911-14)  ;  Commissioner  of 
Immigration  of  the  Port  of  New  York  (1914-19)  ;  director,  Conference  on 
Democratic  Control  of  Railroads  (1919-20)  ;  and  since  then  he  has  served 
as  executive  secretary  of  the  All-American  Cooperative  Commission.  Dr. 
Howe  is  the  author  of  numerous  books  on  taxation,  municipal  government, 
and  the  war.  His  familiarity  with  European  conditions  is  derived  from 
graduate  studies  in  England  and  Germany,  from  frequent  trips  as  investi- 
gator and  writer,  and  recently  as  an  expert  on  international  affairs  at- 
tached to  the  American  delegation  at  the  Paris  Peace  Conference. 

Jane  Addams — Author,  lecturer,  sociologist.  Miss  Addams  is  not  only 
America's  most  distinguished  woman  sociologist,  but  one  whose  interna- 
tional contributions  have  made  her  as  well  known  in  Europe  as  at  home. 
After  graduation  from  Rockford  College,  Miss  Addams  spent  several 
years  in  Europe  studying  applied  sociology  and  political  economy,  and 
returned  to  become  head  of  Hull  House,  Chicago  (1889),  which  became 
the  model  for  the  development  of  social  settlement  centers  throughout  the 
cities  of  the  nation.  Among  many  outstanding  public  services,  Miss 
Addams  acted  as  president  of  the  National  Conference  of  Charities  and 
Corrections  (1909),  and  president  of  the  International  Congress  of 
Women  in  Switzerland  (1919).  She  is  now  chairman  of  the  Women's 
Peace  Party,  the  International  Committee  of  W'omen  for  Permanent  Peace, 
the  Women's  International  League,  and  a  member  of  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee of  the  American  Union  Against  Militarism,  and  many  other  reform 
organizations.  In  recognition  of  Miss  Addams'  high  public  services,  the 
honorary  degree  of  LL.  D.  has  been  conferred  on  her  by  the  University  of 
Wisconsin  and  Smith  College,  and  the  A.  M.  degree  by  Yale  University. 
Miss  Addams  is  the  author  of  numerous  well-known  books  on  sociology 
and  political  economy,  and   is  an  eminent  lecturer  on  these  subjects. 

James  H.  Maurer — Labor  leader,  writer,  legislator.  Mr.  Maurer  has 
been  for  many  years  the  president  of  the  Pennsylvania  State  Federation 
of  Labor,  which  has  become  under  his  guidance  one  of  the  most  progres- 
sive labor  organizations  in  America.  He  is  a  well-known  authority  on 
workmen's  compensation,  workers'  education,  cooperation,  and  other  labor 
problems.  He  is  a  member  of  the  Executive  Board  of  Labor  Age,  and 
serves  as  director  for  many  other  organizations  striving  for  the  betterment 
of  the  working  classes.  Mr.  Maurer  represented  the  Reading  district  for 
a  number  of  terms  in  the  Pennsylvania  State  Legislature. 

Major  Oliver  P.  Newman — Journalist,  lecturer,  sociologist.  Major 
Newman  was  born  and  reared  in  the  Middle  West,  where  he  received  his 
education  until  his  appointment  to  the  National  Military  Academy  at  West 
Point.  He  followed  the  profession  of  journalism  in  the  Middle  West  for 
a  number  of  year,  distinguished  himself  also  as  an  author  and  short- 
story  writer.  Major  Newman's  broad  humanitarian  interests  led  him  into 
social  service  work,  where  he  made  a  substantial  contribution  to  American 
sociology  as  one  of  the  founders  of  the  Social  Unit  Organization.  He  is 
now  serving  as  vice-president  of  the  National  Community  Board,  and  is 
well  known  as  a  lecturer  on  social  service  and  political  economy.  He  was 
appointed  by  President  Wilson  to  the  Board  of  Commissioners,  the  gov- 
erning body  of  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  served  as  President  of  the 
Board  from  1913  to  1917,  resigning  to  take  up  the  command  of  a  battalion 
of  field  artillery  following  America's  entrance  into  the  late  war.  Major 
Newman  served  ten  months  in  France,  and  since  his  return  to  civil  life 
has  continued  in  the  profession  of  journalism  at  the  national  capital. 


VIII 

U.  S.  Senator  George  W.  Norris — Educator,  jurist,  statesman.  Senator 
Norris  began  his  career  as  a  teacher,  was  graduated  from  Valparaiso 
University  law  school,  and  admitted  to  the  bar  in  1883.  After  serving 
three  terms  as  prosecuting  attorney,  he  was  twice  elected  district  judge  of 
the  Fourteenth  District  (1895,  1899),  which  position  he  held  when  nomi- 
nated for  Congress  (1902).  Since  that  time  Senator  Norris  has  continu- 
ously represented  the  people  of  Nebraska  at  Washington,  serving  in  five 
successive  Congresses  prior  to  his  election  to  the  Senate  in  1912,  and  his 
re-election  in  1918.  His  fairness  and  fearlessness  in  public  life  have  won 
him  the  esteem  of  the  nation. 

Rev.  Norman  M.  Thomas — Minister,  lecturer,  editor.  A  graduate  of 
Princeton  University  and  Union  Theological  Seminary,  New  York,  Rev. 
Thomas  officiated  as  associate  minister  of  the  Brick  Presbyterian  Church. 
New  York  (1910-11)  ;  minister  of  the  East  Harlem  Presbyterian  Church 
and  director  of  the  American  Parish  Among  Immigrants  (1911-18)  ;  mem- 
ber of  the  Fellowship  of  Reconciliation,  and  editor  of  The  World  To-m 
morrow  (1918—).  Rev.  Thomas  is  a  prominent  lecturer  on  economic 
and  political  reform,  and  has  rendered  conspicuous  service  since  the  war 
with  a  number  of  reconstruction  organizations. 

U.  S.  Senator  David  I.  Walsh — Senator  Walsh's  public  services  in- 
clude membership  in  the  Massachusetts  House  of  Representatives,  Lieu- 
tenant-Governor of  Massachusetts,  and  twice  Governor  of  that  State  (1914, 
1915).  He  was  elected  delegate-at-large  to  the  Democratic  National  Con- 
vention, 1912,  1916,  and  1920;  delegate-at-large  to  the  Massachusetts 
Constitutional  Convention,  1917-1918;  elected  to  the  United  States  Senate, 
1918.  Senator  Walsh  has  distinguished  himself  both  in  the  study  and 
practice  of  law,  receiving  the  Bachelor  of  Laws  degree  from  Boston  Uni- 
versity School  of  Law  in  1897,  and  subsequently  the  honorary  Doctor  of 
Laws  degree  from  Holy  Cross  College,  Notre  Dame  University,  and 
Georgetown  University. 

SECRETARIAT 

Dr.  William  MacDonald,  Secretary. 
Harold  Kellock,  Publicity. 
Albert  Coyle,  Official  Reporter. 


ATTEST  OF  TRANSCRIPT 

District  of  Columbia,  ss.: 

I,  Albert  Coyle,  do  hereby  certify  that  I  am  Official  Reporter  to  the 
American  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland ;  that  in  said  capacity  I 
personally  attended  each  and  all  of  the  hearings  held  by  said  Com- 
mission in  the  City  of  Washington,  District  of  Columbia,  from  November 
18.  1920,  to  January  21,  1921,  inclusive,  save  and  except  Session  Two  of 
the  Fifth  Hearings,  held  January  14,  1921  ;  that  I  personally  took  down  in 
shorthand  the  complete  testimony  and  other  proceedings  before  said  Com- 
mission at  each  and  all  of  the  aforesaid  hearings;  and  that  the  follow- 
ing is  a  full,  true,  and  correct  transcript  of  the  shorthand  notes  taken  by 
me  at  said  hearings,  excepting  only  irrelevant  and  immaterial  remarks 
extraneous  to  the  inquiry. 

I  further  certify  that  all  affidavits,  depositions,  signed  statements,  and 
other  documents  submitted  in  evidence  to  the  said  Commission  by  wit- 
nesses and  counsel  at  the  aforesaid  hearings  were  given  over  into  my  cus- 
tody and  keeping;  that  same  were  appropriately  marked  and  designated  by 
me  for  purposes  of  identification ;  that  I  have  kept  same  continuously  in 
my  care  and  custody;  and  that  the  copies  of  same  reproduced  in  the  fol- 
lowing transcript  are  true  and  correct  copies  of  the  original  documents 
submitted  in  evidence  as  aforesaid. 

IN  WITNESS  WHEREOF  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and  seal  this 
eighth  day  of  May.  A.  D.  1921. 

(Seal)  Albert  Coyle. 

District  of  Columbia,  ss.: 

We,  Alexander  H.  Gait  and  Harry  G.  Wilbur,  do  hereby  certify  that 
we  were  engaged  by  the  American  Commission  to  Investigate  Conditions 
in  Ireland,  on  January  14,  1921,  to  make  a  stenographic  report  of  its  pro- 
ceedings of  that  day  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette  in  Washington,  D.  C. ;  that 
we  made  such  report  and  that  the  transcript  is  a  true  and  accurate  record 
to  the  best  of  our  knowledge  and  belief,  and  was  duly  verified  by  the  wit- 
nesses  after  having  been   reduced   to    typewriting. 

Alexander  H.  Gai.t. 
Harry  G.  Wilbur. 

Sworn  to  and  subscribed  before  me  this  8th  day  of  May,  1921. 

(Seal)  Joseph  M.  Tighe. 

Notary  Public  for  District  of  Columbia. 

My  Commission  expires  April.   1923. 


X! 


CONTENTS 

PAGE 

The  Committee  of  One  Hundred  Fifty  on  Conditions  in  Ireland Ill 

Personnel  of  the  Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland VI 

Preface    IX 

Attest  of  Transcript XI 

Index  of  Witnesses  : 

Irish  citizens  indicated  by  (I) 

British  citizens  indicated  by  (B) 

American  citizens  indicated  by  (A) 

FIRST  HEARING 

Session  One — November  18,  1920 

Denis  Morgan   ( I ) 6 

Chairman  of  the  Urban  Council  of  Thurles 
Rev.  Michael  M.  English    (A) 53 

Whitehall,  Montana 
John  F.  Martin    (A) 69 

Attorney,  Green  Bay,   Wisconsin 
Rev.  James  H.  Cotter    (A) 75 

Clergyman  and  Editor,  Ironton,  Ohio 

Session  Two — November  19,  1920 

John  Derham    (I) 92 

Town  Councillor  of  Balbriggan 
Mrs.  Agnes  B.  King   (A) 120 

Ironton,  Ohio 
Francis  Hackett   (A) • 137 

Associate  Editor,  "The  New  Republic,"  New  York  City ;  inves- 
tigated conditions  in  Ireland  for  the  New  York  "World" 
Signe  Toksvig  (Mrs.  Hackett)    (A) 174 

Associate  Editor,  "The  New  Republic."  New  York  City 

SECOND  HEARING 

Session  One — December  8,  1920 

Miss   Mary   MacSwiney    (I) 183 

Sister  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 

Session  Two — December  9,  1920 

Mrs.  Muriel  MacSwiney    ( I ) 265 

Widow  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 
Miss   Mary    MacSwiney 303 

Session  Three — December  10,  1920 

Miss  Mary  MacSwiney 345 

P.  J.  Guilfoil   (A) 366 

Pittsburgh,  Pennsyhan ia 
Daniel  Francis  Crowley   (I) 376 

Member  of  Royal  Irish   Constabulary  from  November,   1914, 
to  June,  1920 
Tohn   Tangney    (I)    390 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  October,  1915,  to  July.  1920 
Mrs.  Anna  Murphey   (I) 402 

New  York  City.     (Husband  an  Irish  citizen) 
John  Joseph  Caddan   (I) 407 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  February  to  November,  1920 
Daniel   Galvin    (I) 421 

Member  of  R.  I.  C,  October,  1907,  to  July,  1920 

XII 


XIII 

THIRD  HEARING 

Session  One — December  15.  1920 

Miss  Ruth  Russell    (A) _ 428 

Chicago.     Investigated   conditions   in   Ireland  for   the   Chicago 
'■Daily  News" 

Hon..  Laurence   Ginnell    ( I ) : 462 

Former    Member    of    British    Parliament ;    Member    of    Dail 
Eireann  and  of  the  Irish  Republican  Cabinet 

Session  Two — December  16.  1920 

Miss    Nellie    Craven    (A) 506 

Washington,  D.  C.     Cousin  of  Michael  Walsh,  murdered  Coun- 
cillor of  Galway,  Ireland 
Paul  J.  Furnas   (A) 517 

Nezv  York  City.     Member  of  the  Society  of  Friends 

FOURTH  HEARING 

Session  One — December  21.  1920 

Mrs.  Annot   Erskine   Robinson    (B) 530 

Manchester,     England.       Representative     of     British     Branch, 
Women's  International  League 

Miss    Ellen   C.   Wilkinson    (B) 578 

Manchester,     England.       Representative     of     British     Branch, 
Women's  International  League 

Session  Two — December  22.  1920 

Miss  Susanna  Walsh    (I) 627 

Sister-in-law   of  Aid.    Thomas   MacCurtain,   late    Lord  Mayor 
of  Cork 

.Miss  Anna  Walsh   (  I ) 653 

Sister-in-law  of  Aid.    Thomas  MacCurtain,   late   Lord   Mayor 
of  Cork 

Daniel  J.   Broderick    (A) 664 

Chicago,  Illinois 

Session  Three — December  23.  1920 

Mrs.  Michael  Mohan    (A) 684 

Corona.  Nezv  York 
John   Charles  Clarke    (A) 699 

Corona,  New  York 

FIFTH  HEARING 

Session   One — January  13.    1921 
Hon.  Donal  O'Callaghan    (I) " 718 

Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 

Session  Two — January  14.   1921 

Lord   Mayor   Donal   O'Callaghan 798 

Thomas  Nolan    (I)    852 

Merchant,  Galway 
Emil  Pezolt  (A) 869 

Oakland,    California.      Junior    Engineer    on    U.    S.    S.    "West 
Cannon" 
Henry   Turk    (A)    879 

San  Francisco.     Messman  on  U.  S.  "West  Cannon" 
Harold  Johnson    (A) 882 

Bucks  County.  Pennsylvania.     Sailor  on  U.  S.  S.  "West  Cannon" 


XIV 

Ralph  Taylor   (A)    886 

Scott   Township,   Pennsylvania,  Messman  on    U.   S.    S.    "IV est 
Cannon" 

Peter   J.   MacSwiney    (A) 889 

New  York  City.     Brother  of  the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork 


SIXTH  HEARING 

Session  One — January  19,  1921 

Frank  Dempsey    ( I ,) 893 

Chairman  of  the  Urban  Council  of  Mallow 
J.   L.  Fawsitt    (I) 935 

Consul-General  of  the  Irish  Republic,  New  York  City 

Session   Two — January  21,   1921 

Miss  Louie  Bennett  (I) 979 

Dublin.      Secretary    of   Irish    Branch,    Women's    International 
League 

Miss  Caroline  Townshend   (I) 1015 

Bandon,  County  Cork.     Officer  of  the  Gaelic  League 

Exhibit  I.     Memorandum  on  English  Armed  Aggression  against  the 

Irish  People,  Resulting  in  the  Killing  of  Policemen 1053 

Exhibit    II.      Memorandum    on    British    Atrocities    in    Ireland,    1916 

through  1920 1059 

Exhibit  III.     Terrorism  in  Tuam 1060 

Exhibit  IV.     Official  Falsehood  to  Conceal  Murder:  Case  of  Connor 

Clune   1064 

Subject    Index 1069 


CORRIGENDA 


Page  167,  line  33 :  for  iogS  read  1908. 

Page  205,  line  19,  and  page  206,  line  25 :  for  Sid  read  Sir. 

Page  336,  line  16 :  for  co-called  read  so-called. 

Page  417,  line  30:  for  Roddy  read  Ruddy. 

Page  564,  line  4:  read  And  impropriety  read  Any  impropriety. 

Page  635,  line  30:  for  Maura  read  Maun. 

Page  900,  for  line  41  read:  /  happened  to  be  in  Tralec  at  the  time.     On  tin 

first  time  they  came . 

Page  908,  line  12:  for  Police  read  Military. 


EVIDENCE 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN 

IRELAND 


COMMISSIONERS 


EVIDENCE 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Presented  to  the 

American  Commission  of  Inquiry  on  Conditions 

in  Ireland 

Jane  Addams 
James  H.  Maurer 
David  I.  Walsh 

L.  HOLLINGSWORTH   WOOD 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 

FIRST  HEARINGS 

Session  One 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  at  the  Hotel  Lafayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  November  18,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:22  a.  m. 

ORIGIN  OF  THE  COMMISSION 

Chairman  Howe:  This  is  the  first  session  of  the  hearings  of  the 
American  Commission  on  Ireland.  The  American  Commission  on 
Ireland  was  conceived  of  and  started  by  the  New  York  Nation  in 
September  last  as  a  result  of  the  growing  body  of  public  opinion 
in  this  country  that  was  seriously  concerned  over  conditions  in 
Ireland.  Something  like  one  hundred  fifty  people,  representing 
all  phases  of  thought,  selected  from  various  professions,  mostly 
persons  who  had  been  identified  with  public-spirited  enterprises  in 
this  country,  were  associated  into  this  Committee  of  One  Hundred 
Fifty,  which  was  the  body  from  which  this  Commission  has  sprung, 
— elected  by   this   larger   Committee.      A   complete   list   of  the   one 


1  The  Commission  at  its  first  sitting  elected  Hon.  Joseph  W.  Folk, 
former  Governor  of  Missouri,  as  Chairman,  and  Dr.  Frederic  C.  Howe 
as  Vice-Chairman.  Because  Mr.  Folk  felt  that  his  legal  relations  with 
the  Egyptian  Nationalists  might  embarrass  the  Commission,  he  resigned, 
and  Dr.  Howe  served  as  Acting  Chairman  until  the  addition  to  the  Com- 
mission of  Major  Newman,  Mr.  Thomas,  and  Mr.  Wood,  the  latter  being 
then  elected   Chairman   of  the   Commission. 


hundred  fifty  was  sent  to  all  those  so  selected,  and  they  in  turn 
were  asked  to  vote  from  out  of  that  larger  list  for  a  smaller  Com- 
mission to  hear  testimony.  It  was  in  the  nature  of  a  referendum 
vote.  The  votes  as  they  came  in  were  tabulated,  and  this  Commis- 
sion came  into  existence  in  that  way.  It  was  picked  by  one  hundred 
fifty  people. 

The  Commission  immediately  got  into  communication  with  the 
British  Embassy  in  Washington;  with  Mr.  de  Valera;  it  cabled  to 
England  and  cabled  to  Ireland  to  secure  witnesses  who  might  appear 
before  the  Commission  and  give  testimony.  A  number  of  those 
witnesses  are  here  today. 

MOTIVE  AND   PURPOSE  OF  THE  COMMISSION 

The  motives  which  called  this  Commission  into  existence,  and  its 
purposes  as  formulated  by  the  Commission,  are  as  follows: 

The  American  Commission  on  Ireland,  which  now  opens  its  first 
hearings,  was  elected  by  referendum  vote  from  a  larger  committee 
of  one  hundred  fifty  eminent  Americans  organized  through  the 
efforts  of  the  New  York  Nation.  Conditions  in  Ireland  have  pro- 
foundly stirred  millions  of  American  citizens  of  Irish  descent.  They 
have  created  and  are  creating  a  widening  rift  in  the  friendly  rela- 
tions of  English-speaking  peoples,  not  only  in  America  but  all  over 
the  world.  No  person  who  shares  our  common  blood  and  language 
can  view  unmoved  the  existence  of  civil  war,  the  killing  of  human 
beings,  and  the  substitution  of  martial  rule  for  the  civil  state  in 
any  part  of  the  English-speaking  world.  As  a  people  we  have 
been  trained  by  centuries  to  a  belief  in  orderly  civic  processes. 
Only  in  direst  necessity  can  there  be  justification  of  a  resort  to 
arms  for  the  adjustment  of  disputes  which  it  has  been  our  custom 
and  our  pride  to  adjust  by  reasoned  and  amicable  means. 

What  the  world  most  needs  is  peace.  It  needs  an  ending  of  hate. 
Discussion  should  resume  its  ascendancy  and  reason  should  displace 
the  employment  of  force.  The  orgy  of  destruction  which  is  now 
ravaging  Ireland  is  sending  its  repercussions  to  every  corner  of  the 
civilized  world.  It  cannot  fail  to  postpone  indefinitely  the  return 
of  ordered  tranquillity  to  civilization.  In  addition  to  all  this,  the 
political  life  of  America,  as  well  as  its  orderly  social  processes,  is 
profoundly  disturbed  by  the  injection  of  an  internecine  war  between 
peoples  of  our  own  flesh  and  blood. 


THE    COMMISSION"    TO    ASCERTAIN    THE    FACTS 
ABOUT  IRELAND 

Feelings  such  as  these  gave  birth  to  this  Commission  for  investi- 
gating into  conditions  existent  in  Ireland.  The  Commission  has 
set  itself  to  the  task  of  ascertaining  the  facts.  "  It  plans  to  learn  as 
nearly  as  possible  just  what  the  conditions  in  Ireland  are  and  what 
has  brought  them  about.  It  plans  to  conduct  a  series  of  public 
hearings  in  Washington.  It  will  hear  witnesses  who  present  them- 
selves representing  English  and  Irish  opinion.  The  Commission 
plans  to  send  a  mission  to  England  and  Ireland  to  make  an  inquiry 
into  conditions  in  the  latter  country.1  It  will  investigate  the  kill- 
ings and  disorders.  Quite  as  important  to  the  permanent  adjustment 
of  the  dispute,  it  will  investigate  into  the  economic  conditions  in 
Ireland,  the  extent  to  which  the  Irish  have  developed  a  self-con- 
tained economic  and  cultural  life,  and  the  extent  to  which  the  Irish 
people  have  evolved  their  own  agencies  of  self-government  during 
the  last  few  years. 

In  making  these  investigations,  the  Commission  has  received  as- 
surances of  cordial  cooperation  from  liberal-minded  groups  in  Eng- 
land, who  are  also  deeply  concerned  over  the  state  of  civil  war 
that  exists  in  Ireland.  It  has  received  similar  assurances  from 
British  labor  groups  and  from  British  statesmen,  as  well  as  from 
organizations  in  Ireland.  Judging  by  the  expressions  that  have 
reached  the  Commission,  the  creation  of  this  unofficial  agency  and 
the  delegation  of  this  unofficial  mission  to  Ireland  have  awakened 
a  genuine  hope  that  through  an  impartial  inquiry  into  the  facts  and 
a  disinterested  study  of  conditions,  some  constructive  measures  may 
be  formulated  for  ending  the  chaotic  situation  that  now  prevails. 

WITNESSES   INVITED   TO  APPEAR 

In  carrying  out  the  purposes  of  the  inquiry,  the  Commission  has 
sent,  as  I  stated,  a  number  of  communications  to  the  British  Am- 
bassador and  to  Mr.  de  Valera.2  Persons  representing  any  phase 
of  this  subject  have  been  invited  to  be  present  this  morning.  Wit- 
nesses   who    have    been    called    have    been    given    the    privilege    of 


1  The  Commission  selected  Major  Newman,  Mr.  Maurer,  Rev.  Norman 
Thomas.  Mr.  Arthur  Gleason,  Dean  Robert  Morss  Lo'vett.  and  Dr.  Wil- 
liam MacDonald  as  members  of  this  mission.  Passports  were  duly  granted 
to  them  by  the  U.  S.  Department  of  State,  but  the  British  Embassy  at 
Washington  refused  to  vise  their  passports,  and  effectively  blocked  this 
effort  to  make  a  first-hand  investigation  of  conditions  in  Ireland.  For 
correspondence,  see  Appendix  A  of  Commission's  report. 

-  See  Appendix   A   of   Commission's  interim  'report. 


selecting  counsel,  and  the  Commission  is  solicitous  that  all  interests 
that  may  be  involved  should  be  permitted  to  make  such  inquiries 
of  the  witnesses  as  are  germane  to  this  inquiry. 

The  witnesses  that  have  been  asked  to  appear  for  this  day's  pro- 
ceedings are  as  follows:  Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  Chairman  of  the  Urban 
Council  of  Thurles,  -Ireland;  Reverend  Father  English,  of  White- 
hall, Montana;  Mr.  Francis  Hackett,  of  New  York  City;  Miss  Signe 
Toksvig,  of  New  York;  and  Mr.  John  F.  Martin,  of  Green  Bay, 
Wisconsin.  I  presume  that  many  of  these  witnesses  are  here,  and 
they  will  be  called  in  the  order  named. 

I  might  say,  in  order  that  they  may  know  the  nature  of  these 
proceedings,  that  we  are  not  a  legal  body.  We  have  no  power  to 
subpoena  witnesses.  We  desire  only  statements  of  facts.  If  any 
of  the  witnesses  will  indicate  that  they  desire  to  be  examined  by 
counsel,  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  grant  that  privilege.  We  want 
them  to  feel  perfectly  free  to  tell  their  stories  in  their  own  way: 
about  the  facts,  about  the  background  of  conditions,  about  their 
own  experiences;  so  that  this  Commission,  none  of  whose  members 
has  been  in  Ireland  for  a  long  time,  will  get  as  clear  an  idea  as 
possible  of  present  conditions. 

Is  it  clear  that  all  of  these  witnesses,  have  been  invited  by  the 
Commission?  Senator  Walsh  asks  me  to  emphasize  that  all  of 
these  witnesses  are  witnesses  of  the  Commission.  They  have  been 
invited  by  it.  Their  expenses  from  Ireland  have  been  paid  by  it. 
These  hearings  are  hearings  of  the  Commission. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh  (of  counsel)  :  May  I  ask  if  the  petition 
which  I  presented  the  other  day  to  your  Commission,  that  permis- 
sion be  given  to  the  Commission  on  Irish  Independence  to  be  present 
here  and  be  heard,  has  been  acted  upon  by  the  Commission  of 
Inquiry? 

Chairman  Howe:  The  petition  has  been  raceived  and  granted  by 
the  Commission.  All  witnesses  coming  here  can  have  counsel  in 
telling  their  story. 

The  first  witness,  Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  of  Thurles,  Ireland. 

TESTIMONY  OF  COUNCILLOR  DENIS  MORGAN 
Q.     What  is  your  official  position,  if  any? 

A.  I  hold  the  position  of  Chairman  of  the  Thurles  Urban  Coun- 
cil, the  governing  body  of  Thurles. 

Q.     That  is  the  same  as  our  town  councils? 

A.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  same  as  our  town  councils. 

Q.     Will  the  witness  give  his  full  name? 

A.     Mr.  Denis  Morgan,  of  Thurles,  Ireland. 


Chairman  Howe:  If  you  desire,  your  counsel  can  conduct  your 
testimony.     That  will  be  satisfactory. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  kind  of  a  town  is  Thurles? 

A.  The  town  that  I  was  in  in  Ireland  is  a  town  of  about  five 
thousand  people. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  might  say  that  Mr.  Morgan  and  the  other 
witnesses  from  Ireland  have  advised  with  the  American  Commission 
on  Irish  Independence.  You  may  make  your  statement  to  that 
effect. 

The  Witness:  As  regards  to  that,  I  have  spoken  to  Mr.  Walsh 
and  Mr.  Malone  for  any  assistance  that  I  need  in  hearing  my 
evidence. 

Q.     Would  you  like  to  have  them  lead  you  in  stating  your  case? 

A.     I  would  like  to  have  them  assist  me  in  points. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  a  good  background  for  it  would  be  to 
give  your  own  length  of  residence  in  Thurles.  I  could  ask  you  some 
questions  that  I  think  would  start  this. 

Q.     You  are  chairman  of  the  town   council   of  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  is  the  population  of  Thurles? 

A.     About  five  thousand. 

Q.  Has  it  any  industries?  Is  it  a  manufacturing  place?  What 
sort  of  town  would  you  say  it  is? 

A.     It  is  a  large  agricultural  center.     It  isn't  an  industrial  town. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  are  chairman  of  the  town  council.  Briefly, 
what  does  that  town  council  consist  of  and  what  are  its  duties? 

A.  It  is  the  governing  body  of  the  town.  There  are  twelve 
members  of  them,  which  are  selected  by  the  voters  on  the  principle 
of  proportional  representation. 

Q.     When  were  you  elected  chairman  of  the  town  council? 

A.     On  the  thirtieth  of  January  of  this  year. 

Q.  Were  the  members  of  the  town  council  elected  by  a  vote  of 
the  people  of  Thurles? 

A.     They  were. 

Q.  Briefly,  who  were  candidates  and  what  party  did  you 
represent? 

A.  There  were  three  different  parties  trying  to  get  representa- 
tion on  the  council.  There  were  the  Republican  candidates;  ihen 
there  was  the  Labor  Party  and  the  Independent  Party. 

Q.  Is  the  Independent  Party  the  party  that  is  presumably  op- 
posed to  Sinn  Fein? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


Q.  So  that  three  parties  had  candidates  in  the  field.  What  party 
did  you  represent? 

A.      I  was  on  the  Labor  Party. 

Q.     Are  you   affiliated  with   any  labor  organization   in   Thurles? 

A.  I  am.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Teachers'  Association  on  the 
Trades  Council. 

Q.  It  might  be  apropos  at  this  time  to  state  what  your  business 
was  in  Thurles  and  what  you  have  done  there. 

A.  I  have  been  there  for  the  past  twelve  years  and  have  carried 
on  the  occupation  of  teaching  at  the  Christian  Brothers'  School  and 
the  Diocesan  College. 

Q.     What  branches  do   you  teach? 

A.     English,  Irish,  and  mathematics. 

Q.      How  many  students  in  the  Diocesan  College? 

A.     One  hundred  and  twenty  students. 

Q.     In  the  secondary  school? 

A.     In  the  secondary  school  up  to  one  hundred  students. 

Q.     That  has  been  your  vocation  while 'you  have  been  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  you  single  or  married? 

A.     I  am  married. 

Q.  If  you  would,  state  the  situation  of  the  election  of  last 
January. 

A.  The  election  took  place  on  January  fifteenth.  I  was  one  of 
those  elected.  There  were  five  Labor  men,  four  Sinn  Fein,  and  three 
Independents.  The  results  of  the  poll  were  declared  on  January 
sixteenth. 

RELIGIOUS  HARMONY  IN  THURLES 

Q.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  a  little  more  about  Thurles  before 
you  get  to  the  actual  occurrences.     Are  there  churches  in  Thurles? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  are  very  fine  churches  there — a  cathedral 
and  an  archbishopric. 

Q.     Is  there  a  Protestant  church  as  well? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  known  as  Saint  Mary's  Church.  Canon  Wilson 
is  there. 

Q.     Is  there  a  Protestant  population  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  quite  small. 

Q.     How  about  the  surrounding  country? 

A.     In  the  surrounding  country  there  are  a  few  more  Protestants. 

Q.  Do  the  members  of  the  surrounding  country  worship  in 
Thurles? 


A.     They  do. 

Q.     And  the  cemetery — ? 

A.  The  cemetery  of  all  of  Thurles  is  here  in  the  grounds  of  the 
Protestant  Church.  Saint  Mary's  Church.  The  Catholics  are  in- 
terred there. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  ahout  the  business  population?  Do 
non-Catholics  carry  on  trading  with  Catholics? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  know  of  a  woman,  a  non-Catholic,  who  carries 
on  the  largest  trade  in  town. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Just  a  word.  Has  there  been  a  conflict  be- 
tween the  people  of  Thurles  at  any  time  since  you  have  been  there 
based  on  religious  prejudices  or  religious  differences  between  the 
population? 

A.  Quite  the  contrary.  There  have  always  been  the  most 
friendly  relations  between  the  peoples  of  all  religions  in  Thurles. 
In  fact,  the  chairman  of  the  Urban  Council,  who  had  been  the  whole 
time  president  for  the  past  twenty-five  years,  was  a  Protestant. 

ABSENCE  OF  CRIME  IN  THURLES 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  to  the  character  of  the  people  of 
Thurles:  is  it  a  lawabiding  place? 

A.     Very. 

Q.     You  say  it  is  a  city  of  five  thousand  inhabitants? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  the  twelve  years  of  your  residence,  has  there  ever 
been  a  murder  trial  there? 

A.     None. 

Q.     Has  there  ever  been  a  case  of  assault  to  commit  murder? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Has  there  ever  been  a  burglary? 

A.     If  you  mean  a  petty  larceny — 

Q.     No,  a  serious  breaking  in — 

A.     No,  I  think  not. 

Q.  Has  there  been,  in  the  entire  time  that  you  were  there,  a  case 
of  forgery,  rape,  embezzlement,  or  any  of  the  major  felonies? 

A.     No.  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.      Have  there  been  courts  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Please  describe,  up  to  the  time  that  I  understand  what  had 
been  the  regular  government  courts  were  abandoned,  what  sort  of 
courts  you  had  and  how  they  were  operated? 

A.      We   have    what    are    known    as    petty    sessions    courts,    sitting 


10 

about  once  a  week,  presided  over  by  one  of  the  R.  M.'s — the  resident 
magistrates. 

Q.     What  is  the  character  of  these  magistrates? 

A.     The  R.  M.'s  are  appointed  by  the  Government. 

Q.  Did  the  resident  magistrate  who  presided  over  the  Thurles 
court  live  in  Thurles? 

A.  He  did.  We  have  certain  gentlemen  who  get  the  position  of 
justice  of  the  peace.  They  are  allowed  to  sit  on  the  bench  also. 
If  the  resident  magistrate  is  not  present,  then  the  senior  member 
of  the  justices  of  the  peace  can  take  his  place. 

Q.  Please  state  to  the  Commission  the  general  character  of  the 
litigation  that  takes  place  in  these  courts. 

A.  At  these  weekly  petty  sessions  the  general  matter  is  of  such 
nature  as  stray  animals  on  the  road,  or  a  man  going  home  at  night 
without  a  light  on  his  car,  or  a  certain  man  going  home  that  had 
been  imbibing  during  the  day  too  freely. 

Q.     What  was  the  nature  of  the  punishments  in  these  courts? 

A.  There  would  be  a  fine  of,  say,  five  shillings  imposed.  Or, 
if  a  man  had  trouble  with  a  neighbor,  he  might  be  bound  to  keep 
the  peace. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Who  appoints  these  justices  of  the  peace? 

A.  Dublin  Castle,  the  representative  of  the  English  Government 
in  Ireland. 

Q.     Then  they  are  Government  officials? 

A.     They  are. 

MILITARY  OCCUPATION  OF  THURLES 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Are  there  military  barracks  in  Thurles? 

A.  There  had  not  been  up  to  the  last  two  years.  The  hospital 
we  had  there  was  commandeered  by  the  military  and  has  been  fitted 
up  by  them  as  the  military  barracks. 

Q.     Prior  to  that  time  what  was  the  method  of  policing  Thurles? 

A.  There  were  fifteen  or  twenty  police  under  the  district 
inspector. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  appointed  them? 

A.     They  are  Government  appointees. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  wish  that  in  your  own  way  you  would 
state  to  the  Commission  the  constitution  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary; whether  or  not  they  are  residents  of  the  district  in  which 
they  operate;  the  character  of  the  arms  used  by  them;  and  a  resume 
of  the  entire  organization  of  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary. 

A.     The  system  as  regards  appointing  the  men  to  a  place  is  that 


11 

the  native  of  the  county  where  the  police  are  is  never  appointed 
to  that  county.  If  a  Tipperary  man  joins  the  police  force,  he  will 
be  sent  to  any  county  outside  of  Tipperary.  So  that  you  have  no 
such  thing  in  Ireland,  even  prior  to  1910,  as  a  local  police  ap- 
pointed by  any  power  in  that  community.  They  all  came  from 
some  other  place. 

Q.     Did  the  Town  Council  have  any  authority  over  the  police? 

A.     None  whatever. 

Q.  So  that  the  administration  of  justice  and  the  preservation  of 
peace  and  order  was  entirely  under  the  control  of  the  British 
Government? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  If  a  constable  of  the  county  married  a  girl  in  that 
county,  he  was  immediately  removed  from  that  county. 

Q.     He  was  removed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How   do  these  constables  patrol  now? 

A.  They  go  in  lots  of  eight,  each  man  carrying  a  carbine,  the 
man  on  the  right  with  a  rifle  and  the  man  on  the  left  with  a  shot- 
gun.    They  carry  revolvers  in  their  belts. 

Q.     Where  are  they  located  at  the  present  time? 

A.     In  the  barracks,  which  is  at  one  end  of  the  town. 

Q.     Describe  what  implements  of  warfare  they  have. 

A.  They  are  served  out  hand  grenades  and  rifles  and  shotguns 
and  also  revolvers. 

Q.     Do  they  have  machine  guns? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  always  have  machine  guns  in  the  barracks. 
All  the  barracks  are  sandbagged. 

Q.     Do  they  have  materials  for  barricades? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     They  have  barbed   wire  and  the  like. 

COUNCIL  ELECTED  UNDER  ENGLISH  LAW  FAVORS 
IRISH  INDEPENDENCE 

Q.  Unless  there  is  some  other  background  in  regard  to  the 
situation  you  desire  to  state,  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  election. 
Was  it  an  orderly  election? 

A.     Perfectly  orderly. 

Q.  Prior  to  that  time,  had  you  had  any  trouble  at  your  elections, 
or  were  they  always  orderly? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  always  orderly. 

Q.     They  were  carried  on  in  good  temper  by  the  people? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  always. 

Q.     Relate  what   incidents  in   regard   to   the  situation   you   think 


12 

would  be  interesting  to  the  Commission,  in  regard  to  the  political 
organization.  Suggest  the  method,  or  begin  with  your  own  election 
and  the  constitution  of  your  council  and  the  conduct  of  your 
business. 

A.  As  I  stated  before,  the  election  took  place  on  the  fifteenth 
of  January  and  the  polls  were  declared  on  the  sixteenth.  There 
were  five  Labor  members,1  four  Republicans,  and  three  independents 
elected. 

Q.     How  were  they  elected? 

A.     All  elected  on  the  proportional  representation  system. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  does  not  mean  that  these  Labor  people 
got  the  largest  vote  necessarily.  It  means  that  under  the  system 
of  proportional  representation  each  party  had  to  have  a  certain 
number  of  members  on  the  council  ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Does  that  system  prevail  all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  town  councils  and  urban  councils  and  county  councils 
use  the  proportional  representation  system? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  poor-law  guardians  are  also  elected  in  the 
same  way. 

Q.  You  stated  that  a  non-Catholic  citizen  had  been  chairman  of 
the  council  for  the  last  twenty-five  years? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  electorate  was  Catholic  and  what 
non-Catholic  during  those  years? 

A.     The  non-Catholic  amounted  to  about  twelve. 

Q.     Twelve  per  cent? 

A.     No,  twelve  persons. 

Q.  During  the  twenty-five  years  that  a  non-Catholic  was  presi- 
dent of  the  town  council? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  same  gentleman  carried  on  one  of  the  largest 
businesses  in  the  town. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Now,  go  ahead  with  the  organization  of 
the  council. 

A.  The  first  meeting  of  the  council  was  fixed  for  the  thirtieth  of 
January  in  order  to  appoint  a  chairman. 

Q.  Were  you  acting  under  the  English  statutes  or  under  the 
statutes  of  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.  We  were  acting  under  the  rules  for  elections  laid  down  by 
the  Local  Government  Board. 


The  Irish  Labor  party  is  officially  committed  to   Irish  independence,  and 
national  issues  is  allied  with  the  Republicans. 


L3 

Q.     What  is  the  Local  Government  Board? 

A.  The  Local  Government  Board  is  a  system  brought  in  by  the 
English  Government  for  extending  to  the  Irish  people  more  freedom 
in  their  own  affairs.     It  has  been  in  force  for  many  years. 

Q.  So  that  the  Local  Government  Board  could  arrange  the  elec- 
tion under  the  proportional   representation   principle? 

A.     \es,  sir. 

Q.     And  it  was  under  that  Board  that  you  elected  these  officers? 

A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  And  the  Local  Government  Board  were  officials  appointed  by 
the  British  Government? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  In  fact,  that  proportional  representation  law  was 
passed  in  the  House  of  Commons. 

Q.  And  this  election  was  held  under  laws  and  machinery  that 
had  been  existing  in  Ireland  for  many  years? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

ARRESTED  WITHOUT  A  CHARGE 

Q.     Now,  about  the  election  of  a  chairman? 

A.  The  election  of  a  chairman  was  fixed  for  the  thirtieth  of 
January,  fifteen  days  after  the  polls  were  declared.  At  that  meet- 
ing a  chairman  was  to  be  elected  by  majority  vote  of  the  council. 
On  the  night  it  was  to  take  place,  just  as  I  was  going  to  the  meeting. 
I  was  arrested. 

Q.     Where  were  you  arrested? 

A.      In  my  own  home. 

Q.     By  whom? 

A.     By  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.1 

Q.     How  many? 

A.     Eight  armed  men. 

Q.  Describe  just  what  took  place,  what  hour  it  was,  and  how 
they  approached  you  and  your  family. 

A.  It  was  just  about  the  hour  of  six-thirty  in  the  evening.  The 
meeting  was  fixed  for  seven.  I  remember  it  well.  I  heard  a  knock 
at  the  door,  and  as  I  opened  it  a  hand  was  placed  on  my  shoulder. 
A  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  said,  "I  arrest  you."  I 
said,  "On  what  charge?"  He  said,  "On  the  orders  of  His  Majesty's 
Government." 

Q.     Did  he  read  a  paper,  any  paper? 


1  The  Royal   Irish   Constabulary   is   the   Imperial    British   police   force 
Ireland.     See  index. 


14 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.      Describe  your  own  home  and  the  members  of  your  family 
who  live  there.     You  live  there  with  a  wife  and  two  children? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     The  ages  of  the  boys? 
A.     One  five  years  and  the  other  was  two. 

HOME  "SHOT   UP"  AND   FAMILY  TERRORIZED 

Q.     Were  your  wife  and  children  in  good  health  at  that  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  child  of  five  years  was  very  healthy.  My  wife 
was  approaching  her  confinement.  On  the  twentieth  of  January, 
before  the  arrest  took  place,  about  eleven  ten,  my  wife  was  in  bed 
and  my  boy  of  five  years  was  in  the  cot.  I  had  put  out  the  light 
and  had  got  ready  to  go  to  bed  when  I  heard  shooting  going  on  in 
the  town.  My  house  is  about  five  hundred  yards  from  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  barracks.  It  is  on  one  of  the  corners  of  the 
street  facing  up  toward  the  town.  The  town  contains  a  large  square 
— Liberty  Square,  they  call  it. 

Q.     What  had  been  the  name  of  it  prior  to  this? 

A.  It  was  known  as  the  Main  Street,  but  it  was  changed  by  the 
new  council,  which  changed  most  of  the  names  of  the  streets. 

Mr.  Walsh:  Proceed. 

The  Witness:  On  the  side  of  the  house  facing  toward  this  Liberty 
Square  there  are  seven  windows.  All  the  rooms  are  exposed  toward 
it.  On  the  front  there  are  six  windows  looking  out  into  the  street. 
When  I  heard  the  shooting  first  I  thought  it  was  only  isolated  shots, 
and  then  I  heard  heavy  volleys.  So  I  said  to  my  wife,  "We  must 
get  out  of  this  room  immediately.  If  there  are  any  stray  shots,  we 
shall  be  in  danger."  We  hastily  got  out  of  bed  and  got  down  to 
a  lower  basement  where  it  was  fairly  good  protection  from  the 
side  and  also  from  the  front,  because  we  were  in  the  back.  I  went 
back  and  got  the  youngster  out  of  his  cot.  I  had  to  go  on  all  fours 
lest  a  bullet  should  come  in.  I  dragged  him  down  and  had  to  go 
back  for  some  clothes  to  cover  us.  All  that  time  the  firing  was 
going  on  heavily.     And  it  got  nearer  and  nearer. 

Q.     Had  any  of  the  bullets  struck  your  place? 

A.  Not  up  to  that  time.  Just  as  I  got  inside  the  basement  with 
the  clothes  I  heard  bullets  hitting  the  house.  There  was  a  door 
there  facing  the  street.  The  bullets  came  in  through  the  hall  and 
swished  by  the  door  where  we  were  standing.  We  heard  the  glass 
going  and  the  plaster  falling  off  the  ceiling. 

Q.     The  glass  of  your  own  house? 


15 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  placed  my  wife  and  the  little  boy  flat  on  the 
floor.  We  tried  to^protect  ourselves  as  well  as  we  could.  It  was  a 
miserably  cold  night.  My  wife,  in  her  condition,  being  within 
two  weeks  of  her  confinement,  was  in  a  terror-stricken  state.  We 
lay  there.  The  firing  continued.  The  heavy  volley  we  heard  out- 
side seemed  to  pierce  every  window  in  the  house.  Then  the  firing 
moved  back  to  town  again.  It  lasted  altogether  for  about  an  hour, 
and  it  stopped.  We  remained  in  the  same  position,  anxious  to  know 
if  it  would  break  out  any  more.  In  half  an  hour's  time  it  started 
again,  but  on  the  second  occasion  it  did  not  last  so  long.  Only  about 
ten  minutes.  We  could  not  stir  from  the  position  we  were  in 
because  we  did  not  know  at  what  moment  it  would  break  out  again. 
So  that  we  had  to  lie  on  the  stone  floor  all  night. 

THE  TOWN  "SHOT  UP"  BY  GUARDIANS  OF  THE 
LAW 

Q.  Did  you  go  out  in  the  morning  to  make  an  examination  of 
the  city? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  crowd  outside  my  house  looking  up 
at  the  front  of  it  and  wanting  to  know  if  we  were  all  alive.  I 
examined  the  front  there,  and  every  window  in  the  house  had  been 
pierced  by  bullets.  Some  struck  the  doors.  I  counted  twenty-one 
of  them.  Inside  the  rooms  the  ceilings  were  all  torn  and  the  wood- 
work was  all  shattered.  There  was  debris  lying  on  the  floor  and 
all  around.  I  proceeded  up  town  to  see  who  had  been  killed,  and 
the  whole  street  was  littered  with  plate  glass  shattered  by  shots 
along  the  side  of  the  large  square — both  by  breaking  and  by  rifle 
shots.  The  newspaper  office,  to  which  I  proceeded,  had  been  shat- 
tered by  hand  grenades.  Just  inside  the  window  you  could  see  the 
large  holes  in  the  floor  where  they  bursted.  In  several  shops  the 
glass  was  completely  broken. 

Q.     Could  you  see  who  carried  on  this  firing? 

A.     I  did  not  attempt  to  put  out  my  head. 

Q.  All  you  know  about  it  was  what  you  ascertained  the  next 
morning? 

A.  Yes.  The  statements  made  by  the  inhabitants  were  that  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  had  come  out  of  the  barracks  and  had 
gone  down  the  street,  and  were  acting  under  orders.  Several  people 
told  me  they  had  orders  given  to  them. 

Q.  Were  there  any  soldiers  employed  in  addition  to  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     There  were. 


16 

Q.     Who  was  the  District   Inspector? 

A.     District  Inspector  Golden. 

Q.     He  was  in  charge  of  the  military  proper? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  could  not  tell  you  that. 

Q.     That  was  on  the  fifteenth? 

A.  On  the  twentieth — the  night  of  the  twentieth  and  the  morning 
of  the  twenty-first. 

Q.     And  your  election  came  on  the  thirtieth? 

A.     Yes. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  It  would  he  well  to  carry  this  on  chronologi- 
cally. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   The  election   was  on   the  fifteenth? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     But  the  election  of  the  chairman   was  on   the  thirtieth? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  chairman  is  elected  at  the  first  statutory  meeting  of  the 
council,  is  he? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  at  the  first  statutory  meeting. 

REPRISALS   INFLICTED    ON    INNOCENT   TOWNS- 
PEOPLE 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Prior  to  January  twentieth  and  those  dis- 
turbances that  you  have  described,  were  there  any  actions  on  the 
part  of  the  people  of  that  town  of  a  lawless  character,  or  any  dis- 
turbances of  the  peace,  or  anything  that  would  appear  to  be  a 
justification  for  an  attack  on  that  town? 

A.  In  the  morning  I  ascertained  that  a  member  of  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  had  been   shot  the  evening  previous. 

Q.     Where  was  he  shot? 

A.     Back  of  the  main   square,  this  Liberty   Square. 

Q.     Do  you  know  by  whom  he  was   shot? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  But  the  night  before  there  had  been  a  member  of  the  Con- 
stabulary shot? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     That  was  what  I  heard  the  next  morning. 

Q.  And  the  attack  was  made  following  the  shooting  of  one  of 
the  members  of  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  a  row,  an  open  fight,  over  the  killing  of  this 
member  of  the  Constabulary? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.     Was  there  any  disturbance  of  any  kind? 


17 

\.  No.  >ir.  In  the  country  towns  people  arc  not  <>nt  late  like 
in  the  large  cities.  By  half  after  ten  the  houses  are  all  closed  and 
the  people  in  bed.  Yon  would  nol  meet  anyone  in  the  streets.  By 
half  after  eleven  the  town  was  perfectly  quiet — no  one  on  the 
streets. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  disturbances  of  any  kind  or  any  assem- 
blies or  gatherings  of  a  lawless  character  previous  to  these  two 
events  ? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  So  that  after  the  shooting  of  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary  the  next  night  following  this  shooting  up  of  the  town 
was  done? 

A.     The  same  night.     It  all  occurred  on  the  same  night. 

Q.  You  learned  the  next  morning  that  it  all  occurred  on  the 
same  night? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  area  of  the  town  was  covered  by  this  shooting? 

A.     The  area  was  directly  along  the  main  thoroughfare. 

Q.     About  a  mile? 

A.     A  mile  and  a  half. 

Q.     Was  every  house  attacked  along  that  thoroughfare? 

A.     No,  only  certain  houses  were  attacked. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   About  how  many  in  number? 

A.     To  the  number  of  ten.  I  would  say. 

REPRISALS  PENALIZE  POLITICAL  OPINIONS 

Q.     Were  there  any  business  houses  attacked? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Most  of  them  were  business  houses.  A  man  with 
a  large  trading  establishment  had  the  front  windows  shot  out  and 
bullets  through  the  upper  rooms.  Two  licensed  premises  on  the 
opposite  side  of  the  street  had  the  same — plate-glass  windows  shat- 
tered. Two  private  residences — mine  and  another  member  of  the 
Urban  Council — shot  up.  I  may  mention  that  of  the  members  of 
the  Urban  Council,  there  were  four  members  whose  houses  were 
attacked^on  that  night — four  newly  elected  members. 

Q.  Was  it  appparent  that  these  houses  were  picked  out  because 
of  the  political  opinions  of  the  owners? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  known  to  be  the  political  opinion  of  the  members 
of  the  Council   whose  houses  were  attacked? 

A.  They  were  all  known  to  be  associated  with  the  movement  for 
national  independence. 


18 

Q.     And  they  were  all  among  the  local  leaders  of  the  movement? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  it  was  apparent  that  they  picked  out  those  who  were 
associated  with  this  movement? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  spoke  that  a  member  of  the  Irish 
Constabulary  was  shot.  Is  that  merely  hearsay,  or  do  you  know 
definitely  that  a  member  was  shot? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  we  knew  afterwards  that  there  was. 

Q.     You  knew  afterwards? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     He  was  shot  about  an  hour  previous  to  that  time. 

Q.     You  are  satisfied  that  one  was  shot? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     There  was  a  funeral  afterwards. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  these  Labor  members  who  were  elected 
to  the  Council  in  favor  of  a  republican  form  of  government  for 
Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  all  of  them. 

Q.  How  many  were  in  favor  of  a  republican  form  of  gov- 
ernment? 

A.     Nine. 

Q.     They  were  unanimous? 

A.  No;  nine  out  of  twelve.  But  one  of  the  independent  men, 
who  was  in  opposition  to  a  republic,  is  now  in  favor  of  it. 

Q.     Where  is  the  town  of  Thurles? 

A.     In  the  heart  of  Ireland,  in  Tipperary. 

Q.     Is  it  a  seaport  town? 

A.     No;  well  inland. 

Q.      In  what  province? 

A.     Province  of  Munster. 

Chairman  Howe:  That  takes  us  to  the  approaching  election  of  the 
chairman  of  the  Town  Council  and  his  arrest. 

ENGLISH    LABOR    COMMISSION    FIND    THURLES 
WORSE  THAN  FLANDERS 

The  Witness:  Previous  to  that  let  me  state  that  the  morning  after 
the  shooting  we  had  a  visit  from  the  members  of  the  English  Labor 
Party,  who  were  sent  over  to  Ireland  to  look  into  affairs.  It  hap- 
pened that  they  came  along  at  twelve  o'clock  of  that  day  and  passed 
through  the  town  on  their  way  to  the  hotel  from  the  station.  They 
saw  the  damage  and  issued  a  statement  that  evening. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Who  were  the  members  of  this  mission? 


19 

A.     Mr.  Arthur  Henderson,  Mr.  Adamson,  and  several  others. 

Q.     Have  you  their  statement? 

A.  I  did  not  bring  it  with  me.  I  did  not  know  whether  it  would 
be  permitted  to  bring  papers  with  me. 

Q.     What  was  the  nature  of  that  statement? 

A.  They  said  that  they  had  been  in  Flanders,  and  the  scene  they 
saw  in  Thurles  that  day  was  worse  than  anything  they  had  seen 
in  Flanders. 

Q.     What  was  the  effect  of  this  on  the  people  in  your  own  home? 

A.     My  wife  suffered  a  nervous  breakdown. 

Q.     And  the  child? 

A.  The  little  boy  was  very  frightened.  He  was  in  a  very  nervous 
state  as  a  result. 

ANONYMOUS  THREAT  PRECEDES  ARREST  WITH- 
OUT CHARGE 

Q.     And  your  arrest? 

A.  On  January  twenty-third  I  happened  to  be  investigating  one 
of  the  houses  that  had  been  shot  up.  I  was  talking  to  the  man  at 
the  door  when  eight  members  of  the  Irish  Constabulary  came  along 
and  asked  me  what  I  was  doing  on  the  streets  after  six  in  the 
evening.  I  told  them  that  I  was  talking  to  this  man.  They  said  I 
had  no  business  to  be  on  the  streets. 

Q.     Were  you  then  a  member  of  the  town  council? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  elected  on  the  fifteenth.  Had  you  yet  taken  the 
oath  of  office?     When  did  you  officially  become  a  member.? 

A.     On  the  date  of  the  election,  the  fifteenth. 

Q.  So  at  the  time  these  eight  officers  intercepted  you,  you  were 
performing  a  duty  of  an  officer  of  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  ordered  to  proceed  home.  I  met  my  wife 
and  child  coming  up  the  street.  She  asked  me  to  come  back  to  one 
of  the  shops.  They  came  along  after  me.  We  crossed  the  square 
and  they  followed  us  and  remained  outside.  I  said  to  my  wife 
that  we  had  better  go  home.  And  they  followed  us  until  I  got  inside 
my  own  house,  and  then  they  departed. 

Q.     Were  there  any   disturbances   at  that  time? 

A.  Oh,  no.  All  the  disturbance  was  over.  That  was  two  days 
after  the  shooting. 

Q.  Were  you  not  allowed  on  the  streets  at  night?  Was  that  a 
continuous  order  of  the  authorities? 

A.     It  was  no  order  at  all.     Everybody  was  doing  their  business 


20 

on  the  streets.  I  was  accosted  because  I  was  talking  to  this  man 
at  the  door. 

Q.     Were  you  ever  on  the  town  council  before? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     But  you  were  a  school  teacher  in  the  town  for  twelve  years? 

A.  Yes.  On  the  morning  of  the  twenty-fourth  I  received  a  letter 
in  a  disguised  handwriting  saying:  "You  will  depart  this  life  if 
you  do  not  leave  this  town  within  twenty-four  hours,"  signed 
"Vengeance."  I  received  that  on  Saturday  morning,  the  twenty- 
fourth,  I  think  it  was.  I  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  the  letter. 
Things  kept  on  quietly  for  the  next  week. 

Q.     You  have  no  knowlege  of  the  authenticity  of  that  letter? 

A.  INo,  sir;  no  direct  knowledge.  But  I  have  a  very  good  idea 
of  where  it  came  from.  On  the  thirtieth  this  meeting  of  the  council 
was  to  take  place,  the  statutory  meeting  at  which  the  chairman  was. 
to  be  elected.  I  was  arrested,  as  I  said.  I  asked  the  charge.  They 
said  there  was  no  charge;  only  Government  orders.  I  was  marched 
up  to  the  town  surrounded  on  both  sides  by  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary. I  was  marched  away  up  to  the  other  end  of  the  town  to 
the  police  barracks.  I  was  brought  inside  and  all  the  contents  of 
my  pockets  turned  inside  out.  This  threatening  letter  I  got  on  the 
Saturday  previous  was  among  the  letters  I  had  in  my  pockets.  All 
these  documents  were  taken  away  after  being  gone  through  by  the 
police.  I  afterwards  received  them  all  back  with  the  exception  of 
the  threatening  letter.     I  never  received  that  threatening  letter  back. 

I  was  left  about  an  hour  in  the  cell  in  the  police  barracks,  and 
then  I  was  taken  to  Templemore,  about  seven  miles  from  our  place, 
to  the  large  military  barracks  there.  We  were  surrounded  by  armed 
soldiers  in  motor  lorries. 

THREE  LEGALLY  ELECTED  TOWN  COUNCILLORS 
ARRESTED  AND  DEPORTED 

Q.     How  many  prisoners? 

A.     There  was  Mr.Tulane,  another  member  of  the  Urban  Council. 

Q.     What  is  his  business? 

A.     He  carries  on  a  large  business  as  a  seller  of  hides. 

Q.     What  party  was  he  elected  on? 

A.  He  was  elected  on  the  Republican  Party.  And  then  there 
was  a  Labor  member.  He  was  organizer  for  the  Thurles  Irish 
Transport  Workers'  Union. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     Eamon  Hayes.     And  then  another  chap  named  Eustice. 


21 

Q.     What  parties  did  these  two  others  belong  to? 

A.  The  organizer  was  a  Labor  man  and  the  other  chap  was-  a 
Republican. 

Q.     The  whole  four  were  in  favor  of  a  Republic? 

A.  Yes.  We  were  handcuffed  in  pairs,  placed  in  motor  lorries, 
and  taken  to  Templemore  and  thrown  into  cells  there.  At  midnight 
we  were  taken  out  by  armed  soldiers,  handcuffed  all  the  time  in 
pairs,  and  proceeded  to  Limerick,  which  we  reached  about  three 
o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q.     How  far  is  Limerick? 

A.  About  forty  miles.  We  were  handcuffed  there  until  about 
eight  in  the  morning.  We  were  then  put  in  motor  lorries,  again 
handcuffed,  and  carried  to  Cork  jail,  which  we  reached  about  eight 
in  the  evening.  We  were  put  into  cells  there.  The  second  of 
February  we  reached  Cork.  On  the  fourth  of  February  I  got  a 
telegram  announcing  the  birth  of  the  son. 

Q.     You  got  a  telegram  on  the  fourth  of  February? 


On  the  fourth  of  February. 

And  you  were  arrested  when? 

On  the  thirtieth  of  January. 

That  was  the  first  word  you  had  received  from  home? 

Yes,  sir. 

How  did  they  know  where  you  were? 

There  were  people  who  had  seen  us  on  the  way  and  it  was 


announced  in  all  the  papers. 

TREATMENT  OF  POLITICAL  PRISONERS 

Q.     Up  to  this  time  was  there  any  information  given  you  or  any 
other  man  with  you  as  to  the  reason  why  you  were  arrested,  or  the 


OH 


charge  against  y 

A.  No.  They  refused  to  give  us  that.  In  fact,  we  did  not  know 
our  destination.     We  were  simply  taken   away. 

Q.     Your  family  or  the  townspeople  were  not  advised? 

A.     Oh,  no.     Nobody  knew. 

Q.     Was  there  any  indictment  against  you?    Were  you  ever  tried? 

A.  Oh,  no,  sir.  We  were  taken  from  Cork  on  the  eighth  of 
February  at  about  four-thirty  in  the  morning.  We  were  told  to  pick 
up.  I  asked  the  warden  where  we  were  going,  and  he  said  he  did 
not  know.  We  were  lined  up  in  a  procession  of  fourteen  motor 
lorries  preceded  by  an  armed  car.  Four  prisoners  handcuffed  in 
pairs  were  put  in  each  motor  lorry,  and  the  car  was  then  filled  up 
with  armed  soldiers  wearins  helmets  and   fixed  bavonets. 


22 

Q.     How  many  prisoners? 

A.  Fifty-five  in  our  batch.  We  were  brought  down  to  Cove,  that 
was  formerly  Queenstown,  and  we  were  put  on  two  lighters,  two 
tenders,  and  shipped  out  into  the  bay,  where  there  were  two  war 
sloops  waiting  for  us.  We  went  aboard  the  first  sloop  and  had  to 
cross  from  the  deck  of  this  sloop  onto  the  next  sloop.  The  hand- 
cuffs were  not  removed.  The  captain  of  the  second  sloop  said  he 
would  not  permit  any  prisoner  to  pass  the  gangway  of  his  sloop 
until  the  handcuffs  were  removed,  because  it  was  too  dangerous. 
We  were  brought  across  to  Milford  Haven,  where  a  special  train 
was  waiting  for  us,  and  carried  us  on  to  London.  As  we  went 
aboard  the  war  sloop  an  officer  came  along  and  read  out  a  document 
which  said  that  whereas  I  was  an  individual  who  had  acted  or  was 
acting  or  was  about  to  act  in  a  manner  prejudicial  to  the  peace  of 
the  realm,  I  was  a  fit  person  for  deportation.  That  was  the  purport 
of  the  document,  but  it  did  not  state  any  charge. 

Q.     How  long  were  you  handcuffed  continuously? 

A.     Practically  twenty-four  hours. 

Q.     Handcuffed  to  the  other  men? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.       Where  did  they  put  you  in  the  ship? 

A.  Down  in  the  hold.  Away  down  in  a  little  square  hole  just 
large  enough  for  a  man's  body  to  go  down. 

Q.     How  many  in  the  hold? 

A.     Thirty-five  prisoners. 

Q.     And  ventilation? 

A.     No  sort  at  all. 

Q.     None  otherwise  than  the  hatch? 

A.  No,  sir.  Some  of  the  men  were  practically  lifeless  when 
they  got  across.  One  of  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabu- 
lary force  came  down  with  us  before  we  started,  and  he  had  to  be 
carried  out  in  about  five  minutes. 

Q.     The  air  was  foul? 

A.     Very  foul. 

REFUSED  PAROLE  TO  SEE  DYING  SON 

I  was  interned  up  at  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison  about  the  second 
of  April.  There  was  sickness  in  my  family.  If  a  man  interned 
there  had  one  of  his  relations  who  were  sick,  it  was  the  common 
custom  that  a  man  would  apply  for  leave  to  go  home,  giving  his 
parole  that  he  would  come  back  by  a  certain  date.  There  had  been 
about  six  paroles  before  this  date.     Every  one  had  been  kept.     One 


23 

chap  got  a  telegram  that  his  mother  was — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Where  did  you  say  you  were? 

A.     In  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison. 

Q.     Where  is  this  prison  located? 

A.     In  London,  in  Shepherds'  Close  district. 

Q.     How  large  is  it? 

A.  Very  large.  I  think  it  would  hold  about  two  thousand 
prisoners. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Have  they  workshops  in  it — make  brushes 
and  the  like? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.      It  is  a  combined  jail  and  penitentiary  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     About  paroles? 

A.  Oh.  yes.  This  chap  got  word  that  his  mother  was  dead  in 
Cork.  He  just  had  time  to  ask  for  leave  and  to  catch  the  Saturday 
boat,  and  had  to  take  a  motor  about  forty  miles  into  the  country. 
He  just  got  there  and  met  the  funeral  of  his  mother.  He  came  back 
in  three  days,  and  had  previously  applied  for  extension  of  parole 
and  had  not  got  word  of  it.  He  reached  the  prison  gate  and  was 
just  talking  and  shaking  hands  when  he  learned  that  his  parole 
was  extended,  and  then  he  went  off  again.  That  was  the  system. 
Every  man  got  a  parole  who  had  reason  for  it.  On  the  second  of 
April  I  got  word  that  my  son  was  dying. 

Q.     Which  son  was  that? 

A.  The  oldest.  I  immediately  applied  for  a  parole  to  go  home 
because  my  little  boy  was  dying.  No  reply  came  to  that  applica- 
tion;   it  wasn't   granted.      Another   telegram   came. 

Q.     Meantime,  had  you  heard  of  the  condition  of  your  son? 

A.  Yes,  I  got  word  from  my  wife  that  he  was  still  dying.  On 
the  ninth  I  got  a  telegram  that  the  child  was  dead.  I  sent  in  another 
application  for  parole.  He  had  died  on  Friday  night,  and  was  to 
be  buried  on  Sunday,  so  that  I  just  had  time  to  get  there.  I  got  no 
answer  until  five-thirty  in  the  evening.  Then  the  warden  came  along 
and  said,  "I'm  very  sorry,  I've  got  this  document  to  read  to  you." 
The  document  was  that  the  Irish  Government  could  not  see  its  way 
clear  to  grant  the  parole  to  Mr.  Morgan. 

Q.     The  Irish  Government? 

A.  Yes,  the  Irish  Government,  the  government  set  up  at  Dublin 
Castle  by  the  English — what  we  call  the  Castle. 

Q.     The  child  was  buried  in  your  absence? 

A.  Yes.  I  tried  to  get  word  through  to  my  wife.  I  sent  her 
word,  but  she  did  not  get  it.     The  first  word  she  got  was  from  the 


24 

stop   press   news   in   the   papers.      The   child   was   buried   the   next 
evening  in  the  cemetery  of  the  Protestant  church  of  which  I  spoke. 

ELECTED  CHAIRMAN  OF  COUNCIL  WHILE  IN  JAIL 

Q.     Did  the  election  of  the  chairman  of  the  council  proceed? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  night  I  was  arrested,  while  I  was  still  in  the 
lockup  in  the  Irish  Constabulary  barracks,  the  news  reached  me 
that  the  election  had  taken  place  and  I  was  elected  chairman.  There 
were  two  candidates,  myself  and  Mr.  Tulane,  who  was  along  with 
me  in  the  cell. 

Q.     Was  it  known  that  there  were  two  candidates? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  known  before  you  were  arrested  that  you  were  can- 
didates? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     Everyone  knew  it. 

Q.  So  that  the  two  men  arrested  were  known  to  be  the  candi- 
dates? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Had  it  been  published  in  the  local  press? 

A.     In  the  Star,  yes. 

Q.  How  many  votes  did  you  receive  from  the  eleven  members 
present? 

A.  There  were  not  eleven  members  present.  There  were  two  of 
us  in  the  lockup  cell  and  there  were  two  men  on  the  run. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  there  were  two  other  members  who  were 
eluding  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  being  looked  for.  The  police  went 
down  and  looked  into  the  meeting  and  did  not  find  the  men  they 
wanted  and  left. 

Q.     What  was  the  vote? 

A.     Four  to  three  was  the  vote. 

HUNGER  STRIKERS  THROWN  INTO  "PUNISHMENT 
CELL" 

One  thing  more  about  while  we  were  in  prison.  On  the  twenty- 
fifth  of  April  we  put  in  a  demand  to  the  Government  that  we  be 
tried  oh  some  charge  or  other.  We  demanded  to  be  brought  to  trial 
or  else  released.  They  refused.  We  got  no  answer  to  the  demand, 
and  we  went  on  hunger  strike.  We  refused  to  take  any  food  in  the 
prison  until  we  were  released  or  tried.  Two  hundred  of  us  went 
on  hunger  strike  at  this  time.  When  some  of  the  men  began  to  get 
exhausted  and  were  collapsing,  we  asked  the  governor  of  the  jail 


25 

if  he  would  leave  the  cell  doors  open  in  the  night-time  so  that  those 
of  us  who  were  not  in  as  had  state  as  the  rest,  we  could  look  after 
them.  That  request  was  refused,  and  we  broke  down  the  doors  that 
night.  So  we  were  taken  out  of  the  cells  where  we  were  and  thrown 
into  what  are  called  punishment  cells.  We  were  three  days  on 
hunger  strike  at  this  time,  and  were  getting  pretty  weak.  These 
punishment  cells  are  in  the  basement,  low  down.  They  had  not 
been  opened  for  twenty  years,  I  think.  They  were  very  small  and 
close  and  the  dust  was  thick  in  them. 

Q.     What  was  the  size  of  those  cells? 

A.  Twelve  feet  by  eight,  I  suppose.  We  were  left  there  for  four 
days.  The  conditions  were  bad  there.  We  were  never  given  any 
water  to  wash  ourselves  or  anything  else.  We  were  left  in  a  filthy 
condition. 

Q.     How  many  days  were  you  in  those  cells? 

A.  Four.  I  was  taken  out  of  the  cells  in  the  low  basement  and 
placed  in  the  very  top  of  the  house,  up  four  flights  of  stairs.  We 
could  take  a  little  exercise  at  certain  times  of  the  day,  walking  out 
of  the  cells  and  down  into  the  yard  and  walking  back  again.  I  used 
to  do  this  until  my  legs  gave  way  due  to  hunger.  I  was  then  locked 
up.  None  of  the  doors  were  ever  opened  after  that.  The  doctor 
came  along  and  asked  me  to  take  some  medicine,  and  I  said,  "No, 
not  so  long  as  I  am  in  the  prison.  As  soon  as  I  am  out  of  the  prison 
gate,  I  will  take  medicine."  He  tried  to  force  it  down  my  lips,  but 
I  threw  the  glass  out  of  his  hand.  The  next  day  at  twelve  o'clock 
a  man  arrived  and  said  to  me  that  an  ambulance  was  waiting  outside 
for  us.  He  did  not  tell  us  where  we  were  going  or  anything  else. 
They  brought  us  to  the  ambulance  and  took  us  to  St.  James  Hospital. 

Q.     What  hospital  was  that? 

A.  St.  James  Hospital,  in  London,  near  Wormwood  Scrubbs  jail. 
We  were  in  the  hospital  then  for  about  three  weeks.  We  never  got 
a  thing  when  we  left.  I  may  tell  you  that  upon  leaving  the  jail, 
we  were  simply  taken  out  of  the  bed  and  put  into  the  ambulance. 
We  had  no  clothes.  The  money  we  had  on  us  when  we  were  arrested 
was  taken  at  the  prison  gate.  Our  watches  were  also  taken.  When 
we  came  out,  we  got  back  none  of  our  property  or  our  money.  We 
were  three  weeks  in  the  hospital. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  get  your  money  back? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  eventually.  Another  thing  was  that  if  a  man  was 
released  from  a  prison  in  England,  he  had  to  be  sent  back  to  Ireland. 
You  got  a  voucher  to  bring  you  back  to  the  place  where  you  were 
arrested.  When  we  came  out  of  the  hospital  we  asked  for  a  voucher 
and  for  our  watches  and  our  money.     They  were  all   refused, 


26 

Q.     How,  then,  did  you  get  back  home? 

A.  Fortunately  some  of  us  had  friends  in  London,  so  that  we 
got  some  money  and  got  home.  We  kept  applying  and  applying, 
and  finally  after  six  weeks  I  got  my  money  back.  But  we  were  never 
paid  for  our  railway  fare. 

THE  REPUBLICAN  ARBITRATION  COURTS 

The  result  was  that  I  took  up  my  position  on  the  Urban  Council 
in  June.  There  was  a  great  assembly  called  of  all  the  public  bodies 
in  the  county  to  appoint  judges  for  the  Republican  system  of  arbi- 
tration courts.  The  government  courts  of  Thurles  had  fallen  into 
disuse  for  about  twelve  months  past.  These  courts  were  all  practi- 
cally falling  into  disuse  altogether. 

Q.  By  reason  of  the  fact  that  the  military  authorities  were  assum- 
ing control  of  all  disorders? 

A.  No,  by  reason  of  the  fact  that  the  people  were  refusing  to  go 
into  these  courts. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  means  in  civil  cases.  But  were  not  the 
police  arresting  citizens  and  bringing  them  into  these  other  courts? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  These  petty  offenses  of  which  you  spoke,  where  were  they 
tried? 

A.     In  these  petty  sessions  courts. 

Q.     But  all  the  civil  cases  were  not  tried  there? 

A.  No.  The  weekly  sessions  fell  through.  They  were  not  held 
any  more  because  of  the  fact  that  there  was  nothing  for  them 
to  do.     The  people  wouldn't  use  them. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Are  there  any  lawyers  in  Thurles? 

A.     Oh,  yes.    We  have  four  lawyers. 

Q.     They  formerly  practiced  in  these  petty  courts? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.     What  do  they  do  now? 

A.     They  go  into  the  Republican  courts. 

Q.     How  about  this  meeting,  this  assembly? 

A.  We  called  a  meeting  of  the  whole  constituency.  That  is,  a 
village  area  takes  up  the  whole  council.  We  called  a  meeting  of  all 
the  governing  bodies. 

Q.     What  governing  bodies? 

A.  The  urban  council,  the  district  council,  the  labor  bodies,  and 
other  public  bodies.  We  got  them  all  to  send  representatives  to  the 
assembly  at  Thurles.     At  that  meeting  they  appointed  five  judges. 

Q.     Who  were  these  judges? 


27 

A.  Five  citizens — Mr.  O'Byrne,  Mr.  Dwyer,  Mr.  Leady,  Father 
O'Brien,  and  Mr.  Hassett. 

Q.     Could  vou  give  the  husinesses  of  these  men? 

A.  Yes.  Mr.  O'Byrne  is  a  barrister,  Mr.  Dwyer  a  farmer,  Mr. 
Hassett  is  also  a  farmer,  and  Father  O'Brien  is  a  local  priest. 

WHOLESALE  DEPORTATIONS 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  May  I  ask  the  witness?  You  said  there 
were  two  hundred  people  in  the  jail  at  the  time  you  were.  Were 
two  hundred  men  arrested  as  you  were?  Where  were  they  from 
and  what  was  the  cause  of  their  arrest? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  were  fifty-five  deported  on  the  first  occasion. 
Every  day  there  were  batches  coming  in  from  Ireland,  just  as  we 
were,  on  deportation  orders. 

Q.     They  were  under  indictment? 

A.  No,  they  were  all  deported.  There  was  just  a  deportation 
order. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  were  they  signed  by? 

A.  Mine  was  signed  by  Ian  MacPherson.  Others  were  signed  by 
\  iscount  French,  the  Lord  Lieutenant  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Were  they  all  on  hunger  strike? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  any  of  them  die? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  on  hunger  strike? 

A.     Some  of  them  were  on  hunger  strike  for  twenty-four  days. 

Q.     Were  they  all  released  as  you  were? 

A.     Yes. 

POLICEMAN  SHOT  "BY  PERSONS  UNKNOWN" 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  should  like  to  ask  about  the  killing  of 
the  policeman  in  Thurles.    That  happened  the  night  of  your  arrest? 

A.     It  was  a  few  days  before  that. 

Q.  What  reason  had  they  to  connect  that  with  the  leading  Re- 
publicans of  the  town? 

A.  You  mean  why  we  were  shot  up  on  account  of  the  shooting 
of  the  constable? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.  I  could  not  say.  This  is  only  a  theory  of  mine:  they  thought 
they  would  make  prominent  members  of  the  town  suffer  for  it. 

Q.     Did  they  make  any  inquiries  into  the  cause  of  his  death? 

A.     Oh,  there  was  an  inquest.     But  he  did  not  die  on  that  night 


28 

of  the  shooting-up.  He  died  two  days  after.  There  was  a  coroner's 
inquest — a  coroner  and  a  jury  of  twelve  men.  They  found  he  was 
shot  by  some  persons  unknown. 

Q.     This  took  place  in  the  town  itself? 

A.     In  the  town  itself. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason,  any  enmity  or  animosity,  that 
would  lead  to  his  being  murdered? 

A.    No. 

Q.  Was  he  conspicuous  in  any  work  there  among  the  British 
officers  that  might  make  his  particular  actions  offensive  to  the  people 
of  the  village? 

A.  Well,  you  see,  I  could  not  really  tell  you  what  his  duties 
were.  In  these  cases  we  have  no  control  whatever  over  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary.  We  have  no  control,  we  know  nothing  about 
the  duties  they  were  performing. 

Q.     Did  you  personally  know  this  particular  officer? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     Constable  Finnegan. 

Q.  Had  he  been  obnoxious  in  any  way?  Had  he  been  over- 
zealous  in  his  duties? 

A.     I  really  could  not  say. 

Q.     At  that  time  had  they  abandoned  the  coroner's  inquest? 

A.     No,  not  at  that  time. 

Q.  The  finding  was  merely  that  he  was  shot  down  by  persons 
unknown.    No  other  finding? 

A.     No  other  finding. 

Q.     It  v 

A.    No. 

Q.  What  were  the  circumstances  of  his  shooting?  Was  he  on 
his  beat? 

A.     I  think  so.     I  think  he  was  going  home. 

Q.     Was  he  a  citizen  of  that  town? 

A.  No,  he  could  not  be.  No  constable  is  ever  sent  to  his  home 
town. 

Q.     Did  he  have  any  quarrel  with  the  neighbors? 

A.     I  do  not  know.     It  could  happen,  but  I  do  not  know  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  best  information  you  obtained  as  to  the  time 
when  the  officer  was  shot? 

A.     The  time  that  he  was  shot  was  about  half  aften  ten. 

Q.     Where  was  he  when  he  was  shot? 

A.     He  was  going  toward  his  own  home, 

Q.     That  was  about  half  past  ten? 


29 


A.     Yes.  sir. 

Q.  How  long  after  this,  policeman  was  shot  did  the  shooting  up 
of  the  town  take  place? 

A.     About  an  hour. 

Q.  And  everybody  in  town  was  practically  in  bed  or  in  his  home 
at  that  time? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  that  there  were  two  hundred  men  in  that  particular 
jail  under  arrest  with  you.     Were  there  men  in  other  jails? 

A.  Oh,  there  were.  In  Brixton  prison,  the  scene  of  the  late 
tragedy,  there  were  five  more. 

Q.     How:  many  all  told? 

A.  About  three  hundred  all   told. 

Q.     From  different  parts  of  Ireland? 

A.     \es.  different  parts  of  Ireland. 

REPUBLICANS  WIN  NINETY  PER  CENT.  OF  TOWN 
COUNCILS 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  elections  to  which  you  referred  under 
the  Local  Government  Act  which  resulted  in  the  return  of  Labor 
men  and  Republican  men:  do  you  know  what  the  results  generally 
were  of  the  elections  throughout  Ireland  at  that  time? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  There  had  been  a  great  sweeping  at  the  polls  in 
favor  of  the  Republic. 

Q.      About  what  per  cent,  of  the  urban  councils  went  Republican? 

A.     I  would  say  about  ninety  per  cent. 

Q.     All  over  Ireland? 

A.     All   over  Ireland. 

Q.     North  as  well   as  south? 

A.  Not  so  much  in  the  north;  but  if  you  take  the  whole  of 
Ireland — 

Q.     Ninety  per  cent? 

A.     Ninety  per  cent. 

Q.  What  per  cent  of  the  councilmen  were  Labor  men  and  what 
per  cent.  Republicans  and  what  per  cent.  Unionists? 

A.  Our  own  council  is  a  good  case:  about  five  Republicans  to 
four  Labor  men,  and  three  who  are  for  union. 

Q.  On  the  whole,  do  the  men  who  run  as  Labor  candidates 
adhere  to  the  principle  of  Republican  organization  for  Ireland? 

A.     All   of  them. 

Q.     But  they  maintain  their  own  party  organization? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


30 

Q.  It  is  a  political  party,  just  like  the  Labor  Party  or  the 
Liberal  Party  in  England? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  do  the  individual  members  all  adhere  to  the  principle 
of  a  Republican  government  in  Ireland? 

A.     All  of  them. 

Q.  When  you  say  that  ninety  per  cent,  are  Republicans,  you 
mean  that  ninety  per  cent,  of  those  voting  indicated  their  preference 
for  those  candidates?  But  in  every  council  there  must  be  a  minority 
of  non-Republicans  because  of  the  proportional  representation 
system. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Under  the  old  system  there  would  have  been  no 
minority  representation  at  all. 

Q.  Did  other  arbitration  councils  organize  as  yours  and  proceed 
as  you  did? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  In  the  larger  cities  they  have  a  different  method. 
But  in  the  towns  and  smaller  cities  they  are  organized  along  these 
lines. 

Q.     About  ninety  per  cent,  of  the  local  agencies  are  Republican? 

A.     Yes,  today. 

Q.     On  the  night  that  they  shot  up  the  town,  was  anyone  killed? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Anyone  wounded? 

A.     There  were  some  very  remarkable  escapes,  though. 

Q.     Just  property  destroyed? 

A.  Property  destroyed.  For  instance,  the  bed  in  which  I  was 
sleeping  was  struck.  Had  I  not  the  good  sense  to  get  out  of  the 
bed,  I  would  have  been  struck. 

Q.  Had  you  any  personal  knowledge  of  the  facts  surrounding 
the  killing  of  this  constable,  or  do  you  know  of  any  resident  of 
Thurles  that  had  such  knowledge? 

A.     No. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  a  private  feud,  or  whether 
he  was  executed? 

A.     No,  I  do  not  know. 

Q.     Direct  or  indirect,  by  hearsay  or  personal  knowledge? 

A.     No,  I  could  not  give  you  any  idea. 

Q.  What  was  the  popular  sentiment  in  that  town?  How  did 
the  people  feel  about  it? 

A.  The  people  were  so  terror-stricken  and  absorbed  in  their 
own  safety  that  they  did  not  have  time  to  think  about  anything  else. 

Q.     Since  then  it  must  have  been  discussed  among  the  neighbors. 

A.     Yes,  but  the  people  do  not  know  who  committed  it. 


31 

Q.  I  do  not  mean  who  committed  it,  but  the  fact  that  it  occurred. 
How  did  they  feel  about  such  an  occurrence  in  your  town? 

A.     I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you,  Mr.  Walsh,  wish  to  continue? 
Is  there  anything  more? 

A.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  If  you  please,  yes. 

MURDER  OF  M'CARTHY,  DWYER  AND  ROONEY 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Has  there  been  any  further  shooting  up  of 
the  town  since  you  came  back? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  While  I  was  in  prison  it  was  shot  up  twice,  similar 
to  the  first  time. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  detail  anything  you  had  knowledge  of  in 
the  immediate  vicinity — for  instance,  in  Templemore,  the  killing 
of  the  men.     Would  you  detail? 

A.  First  of  all,  while  I  was  in  jail  in  March,  there  was  another 
member  of  the  Urban  Council  named  McCarthy  who  was  very 
prominent  in  demanding  an  inquiry  into  the  shooting  up  of  the 
town.  At  the  Urban  Council  he  put  forward  a  resolution  that  some 
inquiry  be  held  as  to  the  importance  of  the  damage  done  and 
everything  else  in  the  shooting  up  of  the  town.  This  chap  got  a 
letter  informing  him  that  if  he  came  up  Pryor  Street  in  the  direc- 
tion of  the  barracks  they  would  give  him  all  the  information  he 
wanted.  Naturally  he  did  not  move.  But  there  was  a  sad  sequel  to 
it.  A  few  nights  afterward,  after  the  family  was  in  bed — they  live 
off  the  Liberty  Square — the  family  was  in  bed  about  two  o'clock  in 
the  morning.  A  knocking  came  at  the  door,  and  they  asked  who 
was  there,  and  they  said  they  were  looking  for  one  McCarthy.  The 
member  of  the  Urban  Council  is  Michael  McCarthy.  The  brother, 
a  lad  named  James,  who  never  takes  part  in  public  life  in  any  way, 
simply  a  chap  who  is  fond  of  going  around  with  dogs  and  sporting, 
he  said  he  would  go  down  and  answer  the  door.  As  he  answered 
the  door  the  men  asked  him  what  his  name  was.  Immediately  two 
shots  were  fired,  and  he  fell  back  dead  in  the  hall.  His  sister  and 
brother  came  down.  The  sister  said  she  would  go  to  the  priest's, 
and  she  ran  down  the  street  in  her  bare  feet.  As  she  proceeded, 
two  shots  were  fired  after  her. 

Q.     Did  they  hit  her? 

A.  No,  she  luckily  escaped.  There  was  a  coroner's  inquest  held 
over  him.  The  verdict  of  the  jury  was  that  he  was  murdered  by 
men  dressed  in  the  uniform  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

The  next  night,  at  a  place  named  Ragg,  three  miles  from  Thurles, 


32 

there  was  a  chap  there  named  Dwyer.  A  knock  came  at  the  door, 
and  his  sister,  a  married  lady,  opened  the  door,  and  they  demanded 
her  brother. 

Q.     What  was  his  position? 

A.  He  was  a  licensed  trader.  She  said  he  was  upstairs.  He 
came  down  with  a  candle  in  his  hand.  Two  shots  were  fired  and  he 
fell.  A  man  at  the  door  said,  "I  think  I  will  finish  him."  And  he 
fired  another  shot  into  him.  The  verdict  in  that  case  was,  "Wilful 
murder  against  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary." 

Q.     Wilful  murder  against  or  by? 

A.     Against  them.     The  verdict  was  against  them. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  verdict  was  that  this  young  man's  death 
was  caused  by  wilful  murder  by  the  members  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary? 

A.  Yes.  In  the  case  of  this  chap  Dwyer,  the  members  of  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  came  through  in  motor  lorries  about  three 
days  afterward  shouting:  "Dwyer  is  dead  and  a  very  good  job." 
They  came  back  to  the  house  where  this  sister,  this  married  girl 
lived,  and  smashed  all  the  bottles  in  the  house  and  fired  shots 
through  the  ceiling.  The  result  was  that  she  had  to  leave  the  shop 
altogether.  The  shop  was  shut  up  for  several  weeks.  She  came 
back  after  a  time  and  a  similar  occurrence  happened.  The  shop 
was  shot  up  again. 

There  was  a  case  at  Holy  Cross,  about  three  miles  from  the  old 
abbey  of  Holy  Cross,  where  a  wake  was  being  held.  A  girl  had 
died,  and  a  wake  was  being  held  at  the  house.  At  a  wake  in  Ireland 
the  neighbors  assemble  and  they  say  the  mass  for  the  dead  and  sit 
up  all  night  with  the  corpse.  At  the  wake  there  was  a  poor  old 
simpleton. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.  Mr.  Rooney.  He  happened  to  go  out  of  the  corpse  house 
about  three  o'clock  in  the  morning.  He  was  riddled  with  bullets. 
Shots  were  also  fired  through  the  doors  and  windows  of  the  corpse 
house.  There  was  another  man,  the  village  postman,  who  was 
brought  out  and  told  to  look  at  the  body  of  the  dead  comrade.  He 
expected  to  be  shot  too,  and  he  said,  "But  you  know  me;  you  know 
who  I  am.  I  am  the  village  postman."  They  said,  "No,  we  don't 
know  who  you  are." 

Q.     Who  were  "they"? 

A.  They  were  the  men  who  came  in  lorries.  They  were  not  from 
Holy  Cross.  Finally  one  of  the  men  spoke  up  from  the  lorry  and 
said,  "Yes,  I  know  him.  He's  the  postman."  The  verdict  again 
was  wilful  murder. 


33 

Q.     Who  returned  that  verdict? 

A.     The  coroner's  jury  of  twelve  men. 

Q.     Who  selects  those  twelve  men? 

A.     The  police;  that  is,  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Q.  Was  that  verdict  rendered  by  a  jury  established  by  the  Re- 
publican government  of  Ireland,  or  by  the  Roval  Irish  Constabu- 
lary? 

A.     By   the   Royal   Irish   Constabulary. 

Q.  So  that  the  verdict  of  a  jury  called  and  convened  by  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  pronounced  that  crime  as  wilful  murder? 

A.  Yes.  wilful  murder  committed  by  the  armed  forces  of  the 
Crown. 

Q.  What  could  be  the  motive  and  reason  for  shooting  up  a  house 
where  there  was  a  dead  body? 

A.  I  was  just  coming  to  that.  The  next  morning  there  was  an 
official  notice  appearing  in  the  papers  coming  from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  Dublin  Castle  is  the  representative  of  the  British  Government 
in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes.  This  report  stated  that  there  had  been  an  attack  on  the 
police  barracks  in  Holy  Cross  and  one  of  the  members  had  been 
shot  dead. 

Q.      Had  there  been  an  attack  on  the  barracks? 

A.     No.     None  at  all. 

Q.     And  this  chap  was  a  poor  simpleton? 

A.     Yes,  just  a  poor  simpleton. 

Q.     How  old  was  he? 

A.     About  sixty  years  of  age. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  shots  fired  or  persons  killed? 

A.  No  other  persons  were  killed,  but  other  shots  were  fired,  lots 
of  them,  through  the  house. 

Q.  What  was  it  that  prevented  them  from  killing  others  in  the 
house?     Was  there  any  person  who  intervened? 

A.  There  was  a  man  who  was  a  cousin  of  the  person  who  was 
dead.  He  was  an  ex-army  officer.  He  came  out,  and  they  asked  him 
what  business  he  had  there.  He  said  he  was  an  ex-army  officer — 
he  explained  who  he  was.  I  think  his  presence  saved  the  other 
men  from  being  shot  also. 

Q.  Was  there  other  shooting  at  Holy  Cross  besides  at  the  place 
where  the  dead  body  lay? 

A.  No,  but  at  a  place  about  seven  miles  away  there  was  an  attack 
on  a  police  barracks,  but  not  there. 


34 

WARNING  OF  IMPENDING  MURDERS  BY  POLICE 

Q.  If  it  will  not  interrupt  your  narrative,  when  was  the  Lord 
Mayor  of  Cork  killed,  Mr.  MacCurtain,  with  reference  to  your  con- 
finement in  jail? 

A.     He  was  killed  in  March. 

Q.     And  you  were  then  in  Wormwood  Scrubbs  prison? 

A.     I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  advices  prior  to  the  death  of  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain  that  he  was  to  be  killed?     Please  tell  that  incident. 

A.  On  the  sixteenth  of  March  there  was  a  prisoner  from  Ireland 
arrived  in  Wormwood  Scrubbs.  I  happened  to  know  this  man. 
He  was  Mr.  Dwyer,  a  member  of  the  arbitration  court.  When  he 
came  in,  I  shook  hands  with  him.  He  was  telling  me  about  home 
affairs.  He  said,  "By  the  way,  I  heard  something  coming  over  on 
the  boat,  that  yourself  and  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were  sentenced 
to  be  shot  by  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary." 

Q.  He  said  that  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  to  be  shot  to  death  by 
the -Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  by  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Q.     When  was  that  date? 

A.     The  sixteenth  of  March. 

Q.     When  was  his  life  taken? 

A.     He  was  shot  on  the  twentieth. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  information  from  any  member  of  the 
English  Labor  Commission  who  was  present  in  Thurles  the  day 
following  the  first  shooting  as  to  what  information  he  had  from  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  as  to  their  future  movements  in  your 
town? 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  I  had  an  interview  with  the  members  of  that 
Commission,  and  was  talking  with  Mr.  Arthur  Henderson.  Just  as 
he  was  leaving  the  town  he  called  me  aside  and  said  to  me:  "Mr. 
Morgan,  I  want  to  speak  to  you  a  minute.  When  I  arrived  at  the 
station  this  morning  I  was  speaking  to  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary.  I  said  the  shooting  up  of  the  town  was  terrible.  He 
said,  'Well,  they  deserved  it  for  shooting  one  of  our  men,  and  it  is 
nothing  to  what  we  will  give  them  tonight  if  he  dies.'  "  That  was 
Mr.  Arthur  Henderson  of  the  British  Labor  Party. 

TEMPLEMORE  SHOT  UP;  TOWN  HALL  BURNED 

Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  further  disturbances  in  this  locality? 

A.     Of  what  nature? 

Q.     Violence,  disturbances,  and  shootings. 


35 

A.  Oh,  yes.  Templemore,  seven  miles  from  us,  was  shot  up  and 
the  town  hall  completely  gutted. 

Q.     By  fire? 

A.     By  fire,  incendiary  bombs. 

Q.     Did  you  examine  the  premises? 

A.     I  did.     Only  the  four  walls  remained. 

Q.  What  was  the  occasion  for  attacking  that  building?  Was  it 
an  attack? 

A.  The  same  day  there  had  been  a  district  inspector  shot  in  the 
town  of  Templemore. 

Q.  So  that  as  soon  as  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
is  shot  they  proceed  to  fire  up  the  town? 

A.     Yes.     That  night  they  shot  up  the  town. 

Q.     Are  there  other  instances  of  that  sort? 

A.     \es,  they  are  quite  common. 

Q.     Is  that  what  is  meant  by  reprisals? 

A.  Yes.  These  are  what  are  meant  by  reprisals.  Something 
happens.  Any  town  in  that  vicinity  will  be  attacked  in  a  similar 
manner:  shooting  and  everything  of  that  kind;  big  motor  lorries  of 
troops  arrive. 

THE  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.     Does  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  do  this,  or  the  military? 

A.  They  are  so  mixed  now  it  is  difficult  to  tell.  The  original 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  forces  are  now  supplemented  by  what  are 
known  as  the  Black-and-Tans.  They  are  police  who  have  been 
recruited  in  England  in  large  quantities  and  sent  across  to  fill  up 
the  forces  in  Ireland.  They  did  not  have  uniforms  enough  of  the 
original  kind  to  give  them,  so  they  dressed  them  in  khaki  and  put 
R.  I.  C.  caps  on  them,  which  are  black,  and  a  black  belt;  so  the 
black  and  khaki  together  made  what  is  called  Black-and-Tan. 

Q.  Have  they  had  difficulty  in  recruiting  members  for  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  Yes.  They  could  not  get  them  to  enlist  in  Ireland.  As  a 
result  this  Black-and-Tan  has  been  introduced. 

JUSTICE  SUPPLANTED  BY  ARSON  AND  ANARCHY 

Q.  Has  any  person  in  your  vicinity  been  arrested  or  tried  or  even 
accused  by  the  public  authorities  for  the  commission  of  any  of  these 
murders  or  assaults  upon  officers? 

A.     No. 

Q.     So  that  the  method  which  has  been  invoked  to  attempt  to 


36 

stop  or  to  bring  to  justice  the  perpetrators  of  these  murders  has  been 
to  fire  upon  the  town? 

A.  Exactly.  There  has  been  no  trial  in  our  vicinity  of  anybody 
on  any  of  these  charges. 

Q.  Discussing  the  wake  where  the  simpleton  was  shot,  you  said 
that  that  same  night,  about  seven  miles  distant  from  the  wake,  the 
barracks  of  the  police  had  been  attacked? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that?  Was  anyone  shot  or  any 
damage  done? 

A.     No  one  was  killed.     The  barracks  were  just  shot  up. 

Q.  You  described  the  report  made  by  Dublin  Castle  on  the  kill- 
ing of  this  simpleton.  Was  it  at  Templemore  where  some  buildings 
were  set  fire  to  and  people  burned  to  death? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Just  describe  that. 

A.  About  two  days  after  Templemore  had  been  shot  up,  an 
officer  who  had  taken  part  in  it,  named  Captain  Beattie,  died.  A 
report  appeared  in  the  papers  that  Captain  Beattie  had  lost  his  life 
in  a  gallant  attempt  to  save  an  inmate's  life  in  a  burning  building 
in  Templemore. 

Q.     Is  that  all?     Did  they  say  what  burning  building? 

A.     Oh,  no;  they  did  not  say  what  building. 

Q.     What  was  the  result? 

A.  The  urban  council  of  Templemore  met  and  issued  a  repudia- 
tion of  that  statement.  They  said  that  Captain  Beattie  did  not  lose 
his  life  in  rescuing  an  inmate  of  a  burning  building,  but  had  lost 
his  life  in  attempting  to  burn  the  town  hall. 

Q.     What  were  the  facts? 

A.  The  best  of  my  information  is  that  Captain  Beattie  and  a 
private  soldier  entered  the  building  to  burn  it,  and  before  they  could 
get  out,  it  was  set  afire  from  the  outside.  There  was  just  a  window 
from  which  they  could  escape.  The  window  was  a  good  height. 
A  person  could  jump  out  from  it  into  the  street.  What  I  imagine 
happened  is  that  the  soldier  lifted  the  officer  up  to  the  window  to 
jump  out,  and  then  he  could  not  get  out  himself  because  he  had 
no  one  to  help  him,  and  his  body  was  found  inside. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  the  soldiers  got  the  petrol  to  burn  this 
building? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  soldiers  went  to  a  petrol  shop  in  Templemore 
and  demanded  petrol.  The  owner  said  he  would  not  give  it  to  them, 
and  they  took  it  anyway  from  him  and  threw  some  of  it  back  lighted 
and  burned  the  shop  down. 


37 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  Demanded  what'.-' 
A.     Petrol,  petrol. 
Chairman  Howe:  Gasoline. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Who  was  the  owner  of  the  shop? 
A.     He  was  a  Protestant  gentleman. 

Q.  Were  there  any  inmates  of  the  town  hall  at  the  time  the 
attack  was  made  upon  it? 

A.     No;  fortunately  it  was  night  time  and  no  one  there. 

REPUBLICAN    COURT  ONLY  JUDICIAL   BODY   IN 
THURLES 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  go  back  for  a  moment  to 
the  constitution  of  this  arbitration  court.  After  this  court  was 
formed,  did  the  people  of  Thurles  submit  their  cases  to  the  arbi- 
tration court? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  hundreds  of  cases  were  tried. 

Q.  Hundreds  of  cases.  Do  the  lawyers  of  Thurles  practice  in 
the  arbitration  courts? 

A.     They  do. 

Q.  Are  they  allowed  to  carry  on  their  business  without  restraint 
on  the  part  of  the  military?  Do  they  do  it  in  public  or  do  they 
have  to  do  it  in  private? 

A.     Oh,  they  have  to  do  it  in  private. 

Q.  Are  the  decrees  of  this  court  respected  by  the  people  of 
Thurles? 

A.  Absolutely.  I  may  say  that  at  first  the  court  did  sit  openly, 
and  then  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  came  along  and 
closed  the  court,  and  since  then  they  meet  surreptitiously. 

Q.  Do  the  people  submit  their  controversies  to  them  and  respect 
their  decisions  and  abide  by  them? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  absolutely. 

Q.     There  are  now  no  other  courts  in  Thurles? 

A.     No,  nor  have  there  been  for  several  months. 

Q.     They  are  abandoned? 

A.  Yes.  The  petty  court  has  quit  sitting  and  the  court  house  is 
falling  into  dilapidation. 

COOPERATIVE  CREAMERIES  BURNED   BY  CROWN 
FORCES 

Q.     Are  there  any  creameries  in  your  neighborhood? 
A.     Oh,  yes. 


38 

Q.     You  might  sketch  how  they  are  gotten  up. 

A.  Yes,  these  creameries  are  started  by  the  farmers'  cooperative 
societies.  They  take  all  their  milk  there.  These  have  been  very 
successful  for  the  last  several  years  in  Ireland. 

Q.     About  how  long? 

A.  Thirty  years,  I  suppose.  I  am  not  quite  sure  on  that  point, 
but  I  think  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     The  farmers  started  them  themselves? 

A.  Yes.  These  creameries:  the  petrol  that  was  taken  from  this 
shop  this  night  at  Templemore,  the  motor  lorries  took  this  petrol 
the  same  night  and  went  around  the  country  burning  the  five 
creameries  systematically. 

Q.     Were  these  large  creameries? 

A.     Yes,  very  large. 

Q.     Was  butter  stored  in  these  creameries? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

EFFECT  OF  TERRORISM  ON  PEOPLE 

Q.  What  has  been  the  effect  of  this  terrorism  upon  the  life  of  the 
people  in  the  market  towns?  What  effect  has  it  had  upon  the  price 
of  necessities? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  many  people  are  afraid  of  their  lives  and 
are  leaving  business  and  giving  up  their  places  for  sale.  The  roads 
of  the  district  are  patrolled.  Armed  motor  lorries  are  rushing 
along  day  and  night.  The  people  are  afraid  to  go  on  the  roads  at 
all.  Only  in  case  of  necessity  are  people  using  the  roads  at  all. 
People  do  not  go  on  the  roads  except  in  day  time  when  they  have  to, 
and  they  go  straight  home. 

Q.     What  effect  has  this  had  upon  the  price  of  products? 

A.  It  has  sent  up  the  price.  Often  necessary  food  cannot  be 
brought  in  from  the  country  because  the  people  will  not  venture  on 
the  roads. 

Q.     What  effect  upon  the  people? 

A.  The  people,  naturally,  are  living  in  a  state  of  terror.  Take 
the  case  of  my  wife.  She  finds  it  very  hard  to  sleep  at  night.  At 
the  least  noise  she  is  startled  and  rushes  out  of  the  house  thinking  an 
attack  is  to  be  made. 

Q.  At  the  time  of  the  shooting  up  of  Thurles  your  little  boy  was 
in  good  health? 

A.     He  was  a  very  strong  boy. 

Q.     Did  this  seem  to  have  a  profound  effect  upon  his  nerves? 

A.     Yes,  it  shocked  him  profoundly. 


39 

Q.     How  about  the  people  of  the  town,  the  rest  of  them? 

A.  I  have  not  been  able  to  stop  at  my  own  home  since  January 
last. 

Q.     Where  do  you  stop? 

A.     I  stop  at  friends'  houses. 

Q.     And  your  wife? 

A.  She  usually  sleeps  in  the  house,  but  any  noise  sends  her 
flying  from  the  premises. 

Q.  Is  that  common  in  Thurles?  How  about  the  prominent 
citizens? 

A.  Yes,  no  man  who  is  prominent  will  stop  in  his  own  home 
over  night. 

Q.     For  fear  of  attacks? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  I  was  asking  about  the  little  boy.  Subsequent  to  this,  when 
was  the  first  notice  you  had  of  any  condition  of  the  boy's  heart? 

A.  We  never  had  any  trouble  with  him.  We  never  had  a  doctor 
for  him. 

Q.     After  this  shooting,  what  was  the  course  of  his  life? 

A.  He  was  a  great  favorite  of  my  own.  He  was  a  little  chap 
whom  I  was  bringing  up  in  his  own  language. 

Q.     Irish? 

A.  Yes,  Irish.  I  kept  him  with  me  so  that  I  could  talk  to  him 
in  his  own  language.  When  I  was  taken  away  the  poor  little  fellow 
was  constantly  calling  for  me.  The  week  that  he  was  dying,  he 
used  to  look  at  the  mother  and  say,  "When  is  Daddy  coming  home?" 
and  "Daddy,  oh  Daddy!" 

Q.     What  is  he  said  to  have  died  of? 

A.     Heart  trouble. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:     I  think  that  is  all. 

The  Witness:  As  regards  the  town  hall.  We  have  a  very  fine  town 
hall  in  Thurles  that  is  used  as  a  place  of  recreation  for  the  young 
men  of  the  town.  That  hall  a  year  ago  was  commandeered  by  the 
military. 

Q.  Is  there  any  social  life  left  in  Thurles  at  all,  any  intercourse 
between  the  inhabitants,  educational   meetings? 

A.  Oh,  no.  We  used  to  hold  classes  in  Irish,  and  they  have  all 
had  to  be  discontinued. 

Q.     Prior  to  that  time  was  there  social  intercourse? 

A.     Yes.    We  used  to  have  classes,  Irish  and  other  classes. 

Q.     And  that  has  all  been  wiped  out? 

A.  Yes,  tha^  has  all  been  wiped  out.  It  is  scarcely  safe  for 
traders  to  keep  open.     I  have  seen  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown 


40 

come  along  and  enter  a  meat  shop  and  take  down  all  the  quarters 
of  meat,  put  them  down  on  the  block,  cut  them  up,  and  take  them 
away. 

Q.     Did  they  give  any  payment  for  it? 

A.  They  offered  payment,  which  was  not  accepted.  In  the  case 
I  spoke  of  it  was  not  accepted. 

TROUBLE   IN    IRELAND    DUE   TO    DEMAND    FOR 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  some  questions 
about  the  government  of  Ireland  and  the  changes  which  have  taken 
place  there.  I  understand  that  some  years  back  the  government  of 
your  town  consisted  of  a  town  council  elected  by  the  people,  and  an 
Irish  Constabulary  appointed  by  the  British  authorities,  and 
magistrates  and  justices  of  the  peace  appointed  by  police  authorities; 
that  there  came  a  time  when  there  was  brought  to  Ireland  a  British 
army,  and  this  hospital  you  spoke  of  was  taken  over  for  barracks, 
and  the  town  hall  also.  When  was  the  date  of  the  coming  into 
Ireland  of  the  British  army? 

A.     The  British  army? 

Q.     Yes,  the  British  army. 

A.     You  know  we  have  always  had  British  garrisons  in  Ireland. 

Q.     When  did  they  take  over  the  hospital? 

A.     The  hospital  was  taken  over  two  years  ago. 

Q.     The  town  hall? 

A.  A  year  ago.  They  do  not  have  it  now,  but  they  had  it  that 
winter. 

Q.  In  speaking  of  garrisoned  towns,  you  mean  recruiting  stations 
where  officers  and  soldiers  are  drilled  and  trained  for  the  British 
army? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  But  there  was  no  actual  operating  on  the  part  of  the  British 
army  until  the  past  two  years? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     They  did  not  assume  any  authority  or  police  the  streets? 

A.     Oh,  no.     There  would  be  none  of  the  armed  lorries  going  by. 

Q.     When  did  the  Black-and-Tans  appear  in  Ireland? 

A.  The  Black-and-Tans  appeared  in  Ireland  some  six  months 
ago. 

Q.  How  far  had  the  people  of  Ireland  proceeded  in  their 
attempts  to  establish  an  Irish  Republic  when  the  British  army  began 
to  take  an  active  part  in  attempting  to  preserve  law  and  order? 


II 


A.  The  establishment  of  the  Irish  Republic  would  dale  back  to 
the  time  of  the  election   in   December,   1918. 

Q.  Two  years  ago  this  next  month? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  About  that  time  the  British  army  became  active  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  been  active  ever  since? 

A.  Ever  since. 

NATURE  OF  MILITARY  OCCUPATION  OF  IRELAND 

Q.  So  it  was  the  advent  of  the  Republican  form  of  government 
that  brought  the  British  army  to  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  They  have  established  barracks  in  every  large  town  and  city 
all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  So  that  they  had  in  your  town  this  large1  building  you 
speak  of? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  was  that  building  used  for  before  they  took  it? 

A.     A  fever  hospital. 

Q.  And  you  say  they  took  over  by  summary  process  the  whole 
building  and  turned  out  the  inmates? 

A.     Yes,  and  turned  out  the  inmates. 

Q.     And  also  the  town  hall? 

A.     Yes,  the  town  hall. 

Q.  What  appear  to  be  the  duties  of  these  British  soldiers? 
What  are  they  doing  by  clay  and  night? 

A.     It  seems  to  me  that  they  are  a  garrison. 

Q.     Are  they  acting  in  the  capacity  of  police  officers? 

A.     They  are  going  around  on  all  these  raids. 

Q.     Mr.'F.  P.  Walsh:     Eight  of  them  go  together? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  say  soldiers.     It  is  no  longer  the  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     It  is  all  soldiers  now. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     What  do  the  Black-and-Tans  do? 

A.     I  really  could  not  tell  you.     They  do  not  do  anything. 

Q.     Where  are  they  lodged? 

A.  In  the  police  barracks.  You  must  discriminate  between  the 
police  barracks  and  the  military  barracks. 

Q.  The  Black-and-Tans  are  taking  the  place  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabularv? 


42 

A.  Yes.  Irishmen  refused  to  join  them.  Resignations  have 
been  taking  place  constantly  and  continuously. 

Q.     How  are  they  dressed? 

A.  They  are  dressed  in  khaki  the  same  as  soldiers,  with  a  black 
cap  and  black  police  belt. 

Q.     Do  they  carry  any  weapons? 

A.     Rifles  in  their  hands. 

Q.     How  many  Black-and-Tans  are  there  is  your  town? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you.  It  would  be  -dangerous  for  anybody  to 
ask.  You  might  be  sent  to  two  years  in  prison  for  asking  such  a 
question. 

Q.  Has  not  the  Town  Council  any  authority  to  ask  about  how 
many  British  soldiers  there  are  in  the  town? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  What  is  your  best  judgment  as  to  the  number  of  Black-and- 
Tan  officers  in  the  town? 

A.     I  suppose  there  would  be  forty  there. 

Q.     And  how  many  British  soldiers? 

A.  I  really  could  not  tell  you.  It  is  constantly  changing.  The 
units  are  changed.     I  really  could  not  say  what  number. 

Q.     Are  these  officials  practically  all  British  or  Englishmen  now? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  All  Black-and-Tans.  Of  course  there  is  a  corps 
now  known  as  the  Auxiliary  Corps. 

Q.     What  is  that? 

A.  This  is  a  corps  that  has  been  recruited  from  what  has  been 
described  in  the  House  of  Commons  as  ex-army  officers  in  England. 
I  think  they  are  principally  for  raiding  purposes.  They  dress  in 
civilian  clothes  and  in  soldiers'  clothes.  They  dress  in  every  way. 
You  can  never  tell  them.  They  go  around  in  motor  lorries  every 
day  raiding  houses  and  raiding  streets  and  holding  them  up. 

BRITISH   POLICY   TO   STAMP    OUT   SELF-GOVERN- 
MENT 

Q.  Back  of  all  this  disorder  and  the  conditions  you  have  de- 
scribed is  an  attempt  of  the  British  authorities  to  wipe  out  and 
stamp  out  and  eliminate  from  Ireland  the  efforts  of  the  Irish  people 
to  organize  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  as  soon  as  the  people  of  Ireland  would  give  up  any 
effort  to  establish  a  republic  and  agree  to  accept  British  authority 
all  this  would  end? 

A.     That  is  apparently  the  case. 


43 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  These  local  bodies  to  which  you  were 
elected  a  member,  are  they  not  British  statutory  bodies?  Were 
they  not  elected  in  accordance  with  an  Act  of  Parliament? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.     And  the  people  were  authorized  to  use  them? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Thev  were  legalized  political  agencies  that  had  been  used  by 
the  people  for  a  long  time? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  And  when  they  used  them  to  elect  Republican  members,  this 
attack  intervened? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  understand  you  to  say,  Mr.  Morgan,  that  you  had  not 
slept  in  your  own  home  since  this  happened? 

A.  I  have  not  slept  in  my  own  home  since  January  twentieth,  the 
night  of  the  shooting. 

Q.  How  many  people  in  Thurles  do  that — of  how  many  is  it 
true? 

A.  I  know  of  my  own  personal  knowledge  that  it  is  true  of  over 
a  dozen,  I  am  sure. 

Q.     Do  you  show  yourself  on  the  streets  of  Thurles? 

A.     Yes,  in  the  day  time,  but  not  after  dark. 

Q.     You  have  been  back  in  Thurles? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  do  not  sleep  at  night  where  you  may  be  found? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     All  these  massacres  take  place  at  night? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  always  at  night.  The  day  I  was  coming  away  I  was 
in  Dublin,  before  I  came  here.  The  night  before  I  came  the  whole 
block  where  I  was  staying  was  hemmed  in  by  Black-and-Tans.  I 
was  afraid  I  would  be  detained,  and  so  I  left  early  in  the  morning. 
I  came  down  in  a  taxi  cab  to  see  my  sister.  The  motor  car  was 
held  up  by  two  armed  soldiers  by  the  road  and  I  was  ordered  out  by 
the  side  of  the  road  to  be  searched.  The  officer  came  along  and 
looked  me  over  and  said,  "I  guess  we  will  have  to  go  back."  And 
so  I  made  the  boat  just  in  time. 

Q.     You  had  a  passport? 

A.     Yes,  I  had  a  passport. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  come  here  in  response  to  the 
invitation  of  this  Commission? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 


44 
THE  CAMPAIGN  OF  PASSIVE  RESISTANCE 

Q.  Has  the  Republican  organization  in  any  way  of  your  knowl- 
edge aided  or  abetted  or  encouraged  the  commission  of  murders 
of  officers? 

A.     Never. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  action  taken,  secretly  or  in  any  way,  to 
wreak  vengeance  upon  English  soldiers  who  are  implicated  in  re- 
prisals? 

A.    No. 

Q.  As  conditions  are  such  as  you  have  described,  it  is  but  natural 
that  there  have  been  excitable  Irish  citizens  who  engage  in  assaults. 

A.  But  they  control  themselves.  In  the  town  of  Littletown  there 
was  a  police  barracks.  About  three  weeks  ago  that  barracks  was 
attacked  on  Sunday  afternoon  and  taken  without  a  shot  being  fired. 
The  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  men  who  were  there, 
were  taken  out  and  never  molested,  and  told  to  wait  for  a  time  until 
the  men  took  away  the  stuff  in  the  barracks,  and  they  were  never 
injured.  That  was  a  case  where  they  captured  the  whole  barracks 
and  had  all  the  men  in  their  hands,  and  none  of  them  were  ever 
molested. 

Q.  Has  the  movement  in  Ireland  for  an  Irish  Republic  been 
based  upon  orders  that  murders  or  the  loss  of  life  shall  never  be 
tolerated  or  committed?  That  is,  has  the  campaign  of  the  Irish 
Republican  authorities  been  one  of  passive  resistance? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  The  organization  is  there  for  the  establish- 
ment on  a  permanent  basis  of  the  Irish  Republic  if  possible. 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  they  proceeded  to  organize  by  passive 
resistance?     What  is  their  plan? 

A.  They  set  up  their  own  executive  bodies.  The  arbitration 
court  is  an  instance  of  it.  In  our  council,  for  instance,  we  have 
repudiated  the  authority  of  England  to  hold  any  dictatorial  power 
over  us  or  forbid  us  to  do  this  or  to  do  that.  We  have  our  own 
government  now,  established  with  what  is  known  as  all  the  public 
representatives  of  the  people  assembled.  We  have  a  regular 
executive  organized. 

Q.  In  a  word,  your  organization  has  appealed  to  the  people  of 
Ireland  to  make  known  through  their  votes  their  wishes  to  abandon 
any  association  with  the  British  Government  and  to  establish  a 
government  of  their  own? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  were  elected  to  form  a  town  council  to  notify  the 


45 

British  authorities  that  you  would  not  recognize  the  British  Govern- 
ment but  would  establish  an  Irish  Government? 

A.     Exactly.     We  repudiated  any  connection  with  Britain. 

LAW  AND  ORDER  MAINTAINED  BY  IRISH  CIVIL 
AUTHORITIES 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  you  gone  in  warning  and  preventing 
your  supporters  and  aids  from  doing  violent  acts,  and  what  steps 
have  you  taken  to  prevent  lawlessness  in  Ireland? 

A.  We  have  established  in  Ireland  our  own  police,  who  have 
been  very  effective  in  bringing  to  account  those  who  have  been 
guilty  of  burglary  and  assaults  and  larceny  and  everything  of  that 
sort.  They  have  captured  the  criminals  in  several  cases  of  hold-ups 
of  banks  in  Ireland.  The  streets  of  Dublin  at  night  time  are 
policed  by  our  men. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  authority  appointed  and  named  and  elected 
by  the  people  of  your  town  and  the  towns  of  the  vicinity,  other  than 
what  has  been  elected  by  the  people  with  a  desire  to  have  a  republic 
in  Ireland? 

A.     Is  there  any  other  authority  in  operation? 

Q.     In  operation  elected  by  the  people? 

A.     No. 

Q.  The  only  other  authority  is  the  British  army  and  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     No  civil  authority? 

A.  No,  there  is  no  civil  authority  now  with  the  exception  of  the 
Republican  executive  bodies. 

Q.  There  is  no  other  group  of  civilians,  either  elected  or  named 
by  the  British  Government,  seeking  to  administer  to  the  people 
politically? 

A.     No. 

Q.  How  many  British  soldiers  or  members  of  the  Roval  Irish 
Constabulary  in  the  last  two  years  have  been  assaulted,  killed,  or 
murdered  by  unknown  parties  in  your  vicinity? 

A.  In  the  vicinity?  In  the  town  there  have  been  two  cases  of 
shooting  in  or  near  the  town. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  the  last  two  years  did  the  Repub- 
lican police  try  in  any  way  to  investigate  or  protect  the  constables? 

A.     Do  you  mean  on  this  particular  occasion? 

Q.     On  any  occasion? 

A.  On  the  first  occasion  our  police  were  not  operating.  That 
was  a  good  while  as;o,  two  years  ago.     But  thev  have  been  very 


46 

active  since.  I  have  known  of  cases  of  soldiers  rescued  from  the 
hands  of  mobs;  that  is  to  say,  drunken  soldiers  who  are  taken  and 
apt  to  be  maltreated.  I  have  known  them  to  be  taken  and  rescued 
by  the  Irish  police  officers. 

Q.     Are  they  known  as  such? 

A.     Oh,  no.     They  act  secretly. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  would  happen  to  a  man  who  was 
known  to  be  acting  as  an  Irish  police  officer? 

A.     He  would  be  arrested  on  the  spot. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  mean  about  policing  the  town 
generally? 

A.  There  is  more  terror  struck  into  criminals  now  than  ever 
before.  They  know  they  cannot  escape  from  the  Irish  Republican 
police. 

Q.     What  happens  to  a  man  who  is  taken  by  your  police? 

A.  He  is  taken  to  what  is  known  as  an  unknown  destination.  If 
the  destination  was  known  the  army  would  swoop  down  on  them. 

Q.     Has  he  a  regular  trial? 

A.     Yes,  a  regular  trial. 

Q.     What  happens  to  him?     You  have  no  jails. 

A.  Sometimes  there  are  jails.  A  secret  house  will  do.  And 
there  are  fines.  And  we  order  them  to  leave  the  district.  They 
may  be  deported  out  of  that,  and  sent  away.  Very  often  they  are 
taken  down  to  the  boat  and  sent  away  to  the  other  side,  for  very 
often  they  are  from  the  other  side. 

IRISH  LABOR  SUPPORTS  REPUBLIC 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  To  what  extent  is  the  town  you  live 
in  organized? 

A.     I  beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  To  what  extent  is  the  town  you  live  in  organized  as  far  as 
labor  is  concerned? 

A.  All  the  labor  possible  in  our  town  is  organized,  and  then  we 
have  a  trades  council,  which  consists  of  elected  members  from  the 
trades  unions. 

Q.      Is  this  council  molested  in  any  way? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  There  has  been  a  meeting  of  the  Irish  Transport 
Workers  broken  up  by  the  police. 

Q.  Are  the  organized  labor  groups  in  sympathy  with  the  Re- 
public? 


47 

A.  Oh,  every  one  of  them.  One  hundred  per  cent.  Every  one 
of  them. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Can  you  give  us  a  financial  statement  of 
the  amount  of  damage  that  has  been  done  to  property  in  your 
vicinity  by  attacks  on  your  town? 

A.     By  attacks  on  the  town? 

Q.     What  that  represents  in  dollars  and  cents? 

A.  No,  I  would  not  attempt  to  do  that.  That  would  be  a 
financial  matter  that  I  could  not  answer. 

Chairman  Howe:  It  is  now  one  o'clock.  We  will  adjourn  until 
two-fifteen. 

2:25  P.  M. 
Chairman  Howe:  Will  the  hearing  please  come  to  order?     Are 
there  further  questions  that  members  of  the  Commission  want  to 
ask  the  witness? 

SUPPRESSION     OF     FREEDOM     OF     PRESS     AND 
SPEECH 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  There  is  one  question  I  want  to  ask  the 
last  witness.  To  what  extent,  if  at  all,  have  restrictions  been  put 
upon  the  printing  in  the  press  of  Ireland  of  news  items  relating  to 
the  activities  of  the  Republican  movement  and  the  officials  of  your 
council? 

A.  All  the  papers  have  been  warned  from  the  English  Govern- 
ment that  if  they  publish  any  news  like  that  they  will  be  suppressed. 

Q.  Have  you  any  specific  instances  where  there  has  been  a  re- 
fusal to  print  propaganda  in  favor  of  the  Republican  movement? 

A.  On  the  occasion  of  the  floating  of  the  Republic  Loan,  any 
paper  that  published  the  advertisement,  the  prospectus,  was  im- 
mediately suppressed. 

Q.     Were  they  suppressed? 

A.     Yes,  there  and  then  they  were  suppressed. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  many  papers  were  suppressed? 

A.  One  of  the  leading  papers  in  Dublin,  the  Freeman,  published 
it  and  was  suppressed  immediately. 

Q.     Was  that  one  of  the  papers  of  largest  circulation? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     To  what  extent  has  freedom  of  speech  been  restricted? 

A.     No  such  thing  as  a  public  meeting  is  now  allowed. 

Q.     For  how  long  a  time  has  that  been  in  force? 

A.     For  eighteen  months  or  two  years. 


48 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  interference  with  the  religious  rights  of 
the  people? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  On  my  own  experience,  a  fortnight  before  I  left 
for  here.  I  was  leaving  a  church.  The  whole  street  was  suddenly 
blocked  up  by  motor  lorries  and  soldiers,  and  every  man  coming 
out  of  the  church  was  held  up  and  searched. 

Q.     How  many  were  thus  held? 

A.     There  must  have  been  thousands. 

Q.     When  was  that? 

A.     About  a  Sunday  before  the  seventh  of  November. 

Q.     Just  this  year? 

A.     Just  this  year,  just  before  I  left. 

Q.  What  were  they  searching  for,  arms  or  documents  or  some- 
thing else? 

A.     It  must  have  been  arms.     I  presume  arms. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  interference  of  your  personal  knowledge 
of  the  holding  of  religious  services  by  any  religious  denomination? 

A.     Not  of  my  own  experience. 

Q.     Do  they  have  religious  services  at  night? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  they  still  held  at  night? 

A.     They  are. 

Q.  What  if  any  effect  upon  the  attendance  is  due  to  this  con- 
dition you  have  described? 

A.  We  have  missions  in  Ireland,  perhaps  once  a  year,  for  a 
particular  parish  or  a  particular  church.  It  has  happened  that  as 
the  people  came  out  of  the  churches,  it  might  be  a  bit  late,  they 
have  been  stopped  and  searched. 

Q.     Apparently  to  find  out  if  they  are  carrying  arms? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

CONDITIONS  BECOMING  WORSE 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Much  of  your  testimony  related  to  the 
early  part  of  this  year? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Are  the  conditions  improving  or  getting  worse? 

A.  Getting  worse.  As  to  that  there  can  be  no  question.  There 
is  now  no  end  of  suppression  of  freedom  of  speech. 

Q.  How  about  the  military  authorities?  Are  there  more  clashes 
with  their  men  than  two  months  ago  or  not? 

A.  It  is  constantly  reported  in  the  papers  daily  that  more 
troops  are  coming  over,  coming  by  thousands. 


19 

Q.     You  mean  that  troops  are  being  massed  by  the  thousands? 

A.     Yes,  sir, 

Q.  Do  they  come  organized  as  a  military  expedition  or  more 
as  a  police  force? 

A.  It  is  very  hard  to  place  this  Auxiliary  Corps  I  spoke  of 
under  any  head.  It  is  not  a  police  force.  It  is  more  for  raiding 
purposes.  It  seems  to  be  particularly  the  duty  of  the  Auxiliary 
Corps  to  carry  out  raids  on  houses. 

Q.  You  have  described  conditions  around  about  Thurles.  How 
is  it  elsewhere? 

A.  I  have  had  experience  at  Dublin  for  the  past  few  weeks 
before  I  left.  You  might  be  going  down  the  main  streets  any  time 
of  the  day,  and  suddenly  you  hear  a  shout,  "Whoop,"  and  suddenly 
both  ends  of  the  street  are  stopped  up.  Shots  are  fired  over  the 
heads  of  the  bystanders  and  then  everyone  is  searched.  Now  they 
are  always  accompanied  by  armored  cars  carrying  machine  guns. 
The  armored  cars  drive  right  up  on  the  foot  path  where  the  people 
stand  so  that  they  have  to  clear  out  in  all  directions  in  order  to 
escape.  On  almost  any  street  of  Dublin  you  can  see  these  armored 
cars  going  along  with  bayonets  sticking  out,  and  very  often  they 
fire  shots,  apparently  to  see  the  women  and  people  scream  and  fly 
in  all  directions. 

Q.     Very  often  they  fire  in  the  air? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  The  reason  for  searching  persons  is  to  see  if  they  have  any 
firearms? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  do  they  do  it? 

A.  They  take  a  particular  street  or  a  particular  section  and 
search  that.  There  was  D'Olier  Street  a  short  time  ago.  Both  ends 
of  the  street  were  cut  off  by  a  cordon.  No  one  was  allowed  to  go 
inside  it.  They  were  raiding  some  house  inside  that  area.  A  shot 
went  off.  Immediately  an  officer  gave  orders  to  his  men  and  they 
immediately  lay  flat  on  the  ground  with  their  guns  pointed  on  the 
ready.  Suddenly  a  man  rushed  out  of  his  office  and  said  to  the 
officer:  "Hold,  that  shot  was  fired  by  one  of  your  own  men."  The 
officer  had  the  presence  of  mind  to  say  "Hold"  to  the  men.  And  it 
was  found  that  a  soldier  had  accidentally  dropped  his  rifle  and  it 
had  gone  off.  It  was  only  the  presence  of  mind  of  the  man  who 
rushed  out  of  the  office  that  saved  the  situation. 


50 

POLICE  FORCE  SUPERIOR  TO  ELECTED  AUTHORI- 
TIES 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  know  whether,  in 
your  official  position  as  executive  of  the  town,  if  there  should 
be  another  of  these  killings  of  constables,  you  would  feel  it  a  part 
of  your  official  duty  to  go  into  it  and  try  to  apprehend  the  man 
responsible? 

A.  You  must  remember  that  that  does  not  come  within  the 
scope  of  my  duties.  We  do  not  have  that  power  now  and  we  did 
not  have  it  under  the  old  regime.  We  cannot  do  anything  of  that 
kind.  We  have  no  control  over  this  Irish  Constabulary  force.  We 
cannot  direct  them  to  do  this  or  to  do  that  or  anything  else. 

Q.  But  if  he  is  injured  on  the  streets  of  the  town  of  which  you 
are  acting  mayor,  you  can  do  nothing  about  it  then? 

A.  No.  We  have  nothing  to  do  at  all  about  that.  We  have  no 
power  to  do  anything. 

Q.  Under  the  old  system  could  you  call  upon  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary  to  preserve  order? 

A.     Anybody  can  do  that. 

Q.     But  you  had  no  authority  under  the  old  system? 

A.    No. 

Q.  Under  the  present  system  you  are  looked  upon  as  outlaws 
and  as  enemies  of  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes. 

SUPPRESSION  OF  CORONERS'  INQUESTS 

There  is  a  point  about  the  coroner's  inquest  that  I  spoke  of  this 
morning.     Now  there  are  no  coroners'  inquests  allowed. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  When  did  they  stop? 

A.  Within  the  last  couple  of  months,  when  this  latest  emergency 
legislation  came  out.  The  coroners  are  warned  not  to  hold  any 
inquests  in  case  of  a  shooting.  Instead,  a  military  inquest  is  held 
and  an  official  account  is  later  issued.  In  fact,  English  newspaper 
reporters  writing  up  the  situation  have  been  threatened  openly  by 
the  police. 

Q.     Can  you  give  a  specific  instance  of  that? 

A.  Mr.  Hugh  Martin,  who  represents  some  big  English  paper, 
was  across  in  Ireland  for  his  paper,  and  he  wrote  up  an  account  of 
a  shooting  by  the  Constabulary,  and  he  reports  that  his  life  was 
threatened  on  the  streets  of  Tralee. 


51 

Q.     What  kind  of  a  threat? 

A.     That  if  he  did  not  clear  out  he  would  be  taken. 

GOVERNMENT  WITHOUT  CONSENT  OF  GOVERNED 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  the  Irish  citizens  refused  to  serve  in  the 
British  courts? 

A.  They  have  absolutely  refused  to  obey  the  summons  of  these 
courts. 

Q.     Is  that  practically  unanimous  all  over  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     The  same  thing  is  true  about  the  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  it  is  practically  impossible  for  the  British  Government 
to  get  a  citizen  of  Ireland  to  serve  on  a  jury  or  in  the  Irish  Con- 
stabulary? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  quite  difficult. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  civic  bodies  where  Irishmen  formerly 
rendered  service  under  British  authority  where  they  have  protested 
against  it  now,  other  than  police  and  jury  service? 

A.  Of  course  the  magistrates  have  all  handed  up  their  magis- 
tracies. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Are  there  any  magistrates  now  except  the 
R.  M.'s — that  is,  the  resident  magistrates,  who  are  paid  officials? 

A.     No. 

Q.  So  the  protest  has  practically  gone  to  the  extent  of  every 
Irish  man  and  woman  refusing  to  hold  a  position  of  authority  in 
Ireland   under  British   rule? 

A.  Yes,  they  refuse  to  recognize  the  functions  of  the  other  party 
in  Ireland. 

THE  WRONG  MAN  SHOT 

Q.     Are  there  any  other  points  you  want  to  bring  out? 

A.  There  is  just  one  other  case  in  regard  to  shootings,  which 
happened  in  Thurles.  There  was  a  man  named  Cleary.  I  happened 
to  be  in  Dublin  at  the  time.  This  night  his  brother  by  some  means 
got  word  not  to  sleep  in  his  own  house.  His  name  was  John — 
John  Cleary.  So  he  did  not  go  home  and  sent  word  to  his  mother 
not  to  allow  his  brother  to  sleep  in  his  house  either.  Michael 
stopped  out  until  one  in  the  morning,  and  then  thought  that  every- 
thing was  quiet  and  safe  and  proceeded  home.  At  one-thirty  there 
was  a  knock  at  the  door,  and  he  went  down  in  his  trousers  and 
opened  it.  He  was  immediately  confronted  by  four  armed  men 
wearing  trench  helmets,  and  was  asked  something  about  whether  he 


52 

knew  anything  of  the  killing  of  a  policeman,  and  immediately  he 
was  fired  upon.  The  bullet  entered  his  chin  and  penetrated  the 
shoulder  and  came  out  of  his  back.  He  had  a  very  narrow  escape 
with  his  life.  Fortunately,  he  has  not  died.  He  was  not  the  man 
they  wanted.  They  wanted  his  brother.  The  same  night  the  as- 
sistant town  clerk  of  Thurles  was  looked  up,  about  a  half  hour 
subsequent  to  that.     He  was  not  at  home  at  the  time. 

Q.     Who  was  Cleary?     What  was  his  position? 

A.     He  was  a  coach  builder  in  the  town. 

Q.     A  reputable  citizen? 

A.     Yes.     He  was  only  a  young  chap,  an  ex-pupil  of  mine. 

Q.     How  old? 

A.     About  twenty-three. 

Q.     Was  he  a  Republican  in  politics? 

A.  ^es,  he  was  known  as  a  Republican.  He  did  not  have  a 
very  prominent  part,  however. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  this  shooting? 

A.  I  cannot  give  you  the  exact  date.  However,  it  would  be  about 
five  weeks  ago. 

Q.      Had  any  British  officer  been  injured  or  shot  previous  to  that? 

A.     No. 

Q.  Was  it,  to  your  knowledge,  due  to  any  act  of  assault  or 
murder  committed  by  the  citizens  of  your  town? 

A.     We  could  not  find  anything  at  all  happened. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  what  was  the  motive  for  these  British 
officers  to  call  at  this  house,  either  for  Cleary  or  his  brother? 

A.  They  probably  considered  that  his  brother  was  a  member  of 
the  I.  R.  A.,  the  Irish  Republican  Army.  They  probably  intended 
to  take  him  out  and  shoot  him.  He  was  not  there,  and  so  they  shot 
the  brother  instead. 

Q.     What  was  the  question  they  asked  him? 

A.     Did  he  know  anything  about  the  shooting  of  a  policeman. 

Q.     Had  there  been  any  policeman  shot? 

A.     No,  not  since  the  preceding  January. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Is  there  any   other  testimony? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  We  have  one  question  we  would  like  to  ask 
him.  You  detailed  a  number  of  coroners'  inquests  wherein  the 
verdict  was  that  it  was  a  wilful  murder.  Was  there  any  action 
taken  after  the  coroner's  jury  verdict  by  the  British   Government? 

A.     No. 


53 

WITNESSES  IMPARTIALLY  SUMMONED  BY  COM- 
MISSION 

Chairman  Howe:  I  might  say  that  the  cablegrams  asking  witnesses 
to  come  here  were  sent  to  officials  of  towns  and  cities  which  were 
quoted  as  towns  in  which  outrages  of  some  kind  were  carried  on. 
The  Commission  cabled  to  Belfast  and  thirty-four  other  towns,  to 
the  mayors  of  those  towns.  It  was  an  impersonal  cable  rather  than 
a  personal  cable. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  personally  received  a  cable  from  this 
Commission? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  receive  it? 

A.     On  the  Sunday  before  I  left. 

Q.     So  no  Irish  society  brought  you  here? 

A.  No,  I  came  only  at  the  request  of  the  Commission.  I  re- 
ceived a  cablegram  and  immediately  proceeded  the  following  Sun- 
day morning. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  am  asking  you  because  I  want  it  a  matter  of 
record  that  you  are  brought  here  and  your  expenses  are  paid  by  this 
Commission,  and  you  came  as  a  witness  for  the  Commission. 

( The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. ) 

Chairman  Howe:  There  are  three  Americans  who  have  recently 
been  in  Ireland  who  are  here  and  want  to  testify  and  get  away  this 
afternoon.  They  are  Father  English  and  Mr.  Furnas  and  Reverend 
Cotter.  The  testimony  of  these  American  witnesses  will  be  con- 
ducted by  the  Commission.     Father  English. 

TESTIMONY  OF  REV.  M.  M.  ENGLISH 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Father  English,  will  you  please  state  your 
name  and  residence  and  your  professional  position  and  any  other 
preliminary  facts? 

A.  My  name  is  Michael  M.  English.  I  live  in  the  town  of 
Whitehall,  Montana.  I  am  the  pastor  of  the  Catholic  Church  there, 
the  only  Catholic  Church  in  the  town. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.     In  Ireland. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  in  America? 

A.  I  have  been  in  America  for  thirteen  years.  I  came  to  this 
country  in  1907. 

Q.     Where  did  you  get  your  education? 

A.     In  Saint  Paul.  Minnesota. 


54 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen? 

A.     I  am. 

Q.     When  did  you  become  an  American  citizen? 

A.  Just  one  year  ago.  The  reason  the  citizenship  was  postponed 
was  that  because,  when  I  arrived  in  this  country,  I  was  just  sixteen 
years  of  age,  and  waited  until  I  was  twenty-one  before  getting  my 
first  papers.  Then  I  made  a  visit  back  to  Ireland,  and  I  found  upon 
my  return  that  I  could  not  get  my  citizenship  papers  because  of 
my  absence  from  the  country  on  my  trip  to  Ireland.  I  had  to 
take  out  my  first  papers  again,  and  became  a  citizen  just  as  soon 
as  possible. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Are  there  any  other  preliminary  facts? 

A.     No. 

Q.  You  have  been  recently  in  Ireland.  Now  proceed  and  tell 
what  you  saw. 

Senator  Walsh:  What  was  your  reason  for  going  to  Europe? 

A.  First  of  all,  to  visit  my  parents  in  Ireland  and  to  visit  in 
England  some  friends  of  mine,  and  to  visit  France,  Italy,  and  espe- 
cially Rome.  I  arrived  in  Ireland  about  the  third  of  May  of  this 
year.  I  sailed  from  Cove  in  Ireland  about  the  first  of  September. 
I  was  in  Ireland  all  of  this  time  with  the  exception  of  about  five 
weeks,  which  I  spent  in  France  and  England  upon  two  occasions. 

Q.     Proceed  with  the  story  of  your  experiences  in  Ireland. 

RAID  ON  FATHER'S  HOUSE 

A.  The  part  of  the  story  I  wish  to  relate  first  is  the  most  intimate 
experience  I  had  in  Ireland.  It  occurred  on  the  evening  of  Mon- 
day, the  twenty-ninth  of  August.  I  left  my  father's  home  on  Tues- 
day, the  thirtieth  of  August,  to  go  to  Cove  and  take  the  boat  for 
America  the  next  day. 

Q.     Cove  was  formerly  Queenstown? 

A.  Yes.  That  is  the  name  it  legally  has  now,  even  under 
British  law. 

Q.     Did  you  not  state  where  your  father's  home  was? 

A.     In  the  County  of  Limerick. 

Q.     The  parish? 

A.  The  parish  is  Templebredan.  The  nearest  town  is  Hospital, 
four  miles  away.  On  this  evening,  while  my  baggage  was  being 
made  up,  consisting  of  two  grips  and  a  trunk,  I  was  in  my  father's 
house,  which  is  about  a  hundred  yards  from  the  road.  About  half 
past  five  a  military  lorry  came  down  the  road  from  the  direction 
of  the  town  of  Hospital  and  stopped  at  the  gate.     The  soldiers  ran 


55 

into  the  avenue  and  surrounded  the  house.  There  are  two  doors 
in  the  house,  a  kitchen  door  and  a  hall  door  facing  the  road  on  the 
other  side.  I  came  to  the  hall  door  just  in  time  to  see  the  troops 
form  a  circle  around  that  end  of  the  house.  These  troops,  I  might 
explain,  were  dressed  in  khaki  and  wore  trench  helmets  and  carried 
rifles  with  bayonets  on  them.  Two  men  who  seemed  to  be  officers, 
whom  we  afterwards  discovered  to  be  officers,  were  armed  only  with 
revolvers  in  their  belts.  One  of  these  officers  came  to  the  door  and 
demanded  that  all  of  the  men  in  the  house  must  come  out  on  the 
lawn  in  front  of  the  house  and  be  searched.  They  told  my  mother 
that  the  ladies  and  myself  did  not  need  to  come  out,  because  I  was 
a  priest.  My  brothers  were  all  searched  except  my  small  brother, 
about  seventeen,  who  said,  "I  refuse  to  come  out."  And  the  officer 
pulled  his  revolver  and  said:  "You  come  out  or  I  will  give  you 
the  contents  of  this."  Then  the  search  went  on.  As  my  father's 
watch  was  taken  out  of  his  pocket  he  said,  "I  want  you  to  return 
the  watch."  The  officer  said:  ''Escort  this  man  to  the  lorry."  The 
search  of  the  other  men  proceeded.  The  body  search  was  finished 
in  about  fifteen  minutes.  Then  the  officers  attempted  to  enter  the 
house. 

AMERICAN   CITIZENSHIP   IGNORED 

I  was  standing  in  the  hall  door.  I  said:  "I  want  to  know  who 
the  commanding  officer  is."  He  said,  "I  am."  I  said,  "I  have 
property  in  this  house,  my  personal  belongings.  As  an  American 
citizen  I  require  that  these  be  immune  from  search."  He  said, 
"Your  American  citizenship  does  not  count  here.  You  are  on  Brit- 
ish soil."  I  said,  "Still  I  am  an  American,  and  subject  only  to 
the  ordinary  civil  courts."  He  said,  "That  does  not  count.  Your 
citizenship  does  not  entitle  you  to  any  privileges  here."  He  re- 
peated, "It  does  not  count  here,  and  your  property  will  be  searched." 
Then  I  said,  "I  am  anxious  on  my  return  to  America  to  enter  a 
protest  to  my  government  against  this.  In  order  that  my  protest 
may  be  intelligent,  I  want  to  know  your  name,  your  rank,  and  the 
name  of  your  regiment."  He  said,  "I  absolutely  refuse  to  give  you 
any  information."  I  said,  "Do  you  mean  that  I  am  not  going  to 
know  who  is  searching  me?"  He  said,  "I  will  give  you  no  infor- 
mation whatever.  I  have  been  forbidden  to  do  so.  I  cannot  do  it." 
I  said,  "Then  I  require  you  to  produce  your  authority  for  searching 
me."  He  tapped  his  revolver  and  said.  "This  is  my  authority." 
I  said,  "That  is  not  enough."  He  said,  "Do  you  want  to  see  a  little 
more  of  it?" 

The  search  of  the  house  proceeded.     They  started  on  the  lower 


56 

floor.  There  is  a  parlor,  a  large  room,  and  a  little  breakfast  room 
on  the  lower  floor.  One  of  the  officers,  whom  I  afterwards  dis- 
covered to  be  Captain  V.  H.  Wells  (the  other  one,  with  whom  I 
held  the  conversation,  was  afterward  discovered  to  be  Major  Gray), 
— the  captain  went  into  the  little  breakfast  room  accompanied  by 
my  mother.  The  major  asked  me  to  accompany  him  on  his  search. 
In  the  parlor  he  took  the  rug  off  the  floor.  I  also  wish  to  state 
that  during  the  search  no  property  was  damaged  in  any  way.  He 
removed  the  rug  off  the  floor,  lifted  up  the  tablecloth,  examined 
all  papers  in  the  room,  took  the  pictures  off  the  wall  and  removed 
the  cardboard  off  the  back  of  them.  Evidently  he  was  looking  for 
documents.  On  the  mantel  piece  were  also  some  letters  of  mine 
addressed  to  me,  containing  nothing  but  social  and  personal  cor- 
respondence. These  the  major  took  in  his  hand.  I  said,  "All  these 
letters  are  mine."  He  said,  "I  am  going  to  read  them."  He  put 
them  in  his  pocket,  although  I  requested  him  to  hand  them  over 
to  me.  Those  letters  were  never  returned.  The  captain,  who 
searched  the  other  room,  reported  that  he  was  through.  Then  all 
four  of  us  went  upstairs.  On  one  side  of  the  stairway  upstairs  are 
two  rooms,  one  the  room  that  I  had  been  using,  and  the  other  room 
used  by  a  couple  of  my  brothers.  I  stood  again  in  the  door  leading 
into  the  room  which  I  had  been  occupying,  and  I  said,  "This  is  my 
room.  There  is  nothing  in  here  that  is  not  my  property,  and  I  insist 
as  an  American  citizen  that  it  be  not  searched,  at  least  without  a 
proper  warrant."  The  major  stated  again  that  that  made  no  differ- 
ence, and  the  protest  was  unavailing.  My  mother  accompanied  the 
captain  during  the  search  of  my  room.  I  went  into  my  brothers' 
room  with  the  major.  In  that  room  is  a  wardrobe  with  coats  and 
vests  and  trousers  hanging  in  it,  and  one  bed.  He  searched  the 
wardrobe.  In  a  pocket  of  the  wardrobe  he  discovered  a  card  of 
membership  in  the  Irish  Volunteers,  made  out  in  the  name  of 
Patrick  English,  a  brother  of  mine.  He  showed  me  this  card  at 
the  time  he  found  it.  He  said,  "Who  is  Patrick  English?"  I  re- 
fused to  give  him  any  information  whatever.  He  said,  "We  will 
take  every  man  here  until  we  discover  who  he  is.  We  will  remove 
them  all."  He  proceeded  with  the  search.  He  took  the  bedclothes 
off  the  bed,  including  the  mattress,  removed  the  rug  again  off  the 
floor,  looked  on  top  of  the  wardrobe  and  under  it  (it  was  a  loose 
wardrobe,  not  attached  to  the  wall),  and  then  he  sounded  the  ceiling 
with  the  butt  of  his  revolver,  and  he  sounded  portions  of  the  floor 
and  the  wall.  In  the  meantime,  the  captain,  as  I  have  stated,  was 
conducting  the  search  of  my  room.  I  went  in  there  with  the  major. 
This  captain  who  was  conducting  the  search  in  mv  room  never  at 


57 

any  time  appeared  in  the  room  where  we  were.  I  discovered  that 
things  were  considerably  upset,  but  nothing  damaged,  indicating 
that  a  very  thorough  search  had  been  made.  I  found  that  other 
letters  which  were  only  of  a  personal  nature  were  taken,  that  a 
photo  which  had  been  taken  of  myself  in  Butte,  Montana,  many 
years  ago  had  also  been  taken,  and  that  notes  of  mine  from  my 
trip  around  England,  Ireland,  and  France  had  also  been  taken,  i 
asked  the  major  again  for  the  return  of  these  notes,  but  he  again 
refused.  They  also  searched  the  rooms  on  the  other  side  of  the 
stairway.  As  far  as  I  know,  nothing  was  taken.  Then  we  all  went 
downstairs. 

The  major  said.  "Who  is  Patrick  English?"  My  brother  stepped 
out.  He  said,  "You  are  under  arrest."  They  removed  my  brother 
down  to  the  gate.  My  mother,  my  brother,  and  myself  went  down 
to  the  gate  to  see  him  off.  He  said,  "What  charge  have  you  against 
me?"  The  major  refused  to  reply.  As  we  were  going  down  to  the 
gate.  I  warned  the  others  to  go  back.  I  said,  "They  might  fire  on 
us.  They  are  liable  to  turn  the  machine  gun  in  the  lorry  on  us. 
We  had  better  go  back." 

HIS  LIFE  THREATENED 

As  a  continuation  of  this,  the  next  morning,  as  I  was  leaving  for 
Cove  to  take  the  boat,  the  next  morning  about  half  past  ten  a  young 
man  who  lives  in  a  house  about  three  miles  from  there  named  Kirby 
came  up  there  and  said  to  me  privately,  "Our  house  was  raided  last 
night  at  midnight.  They  asked  where  you  lived  and  one  of  them 
said,  'We  are  going  to  shoot  English  on  the  morrow.'  "  That  was 
the  last  I  heard  until  I  got  to  Montana,  and  I  got  a  letter  which 
said  that  my  brother  had  been  sentenced  to  six  months.  I  also  got 
a  letter  from  my  father,  who  said  that  on  the  next  evening  the 
Black-and-Tans  came  and  surrounded  the  house  and  fired  on  my 
brothers,  who  were  out  in  the  fields  around  the  house,  but  they  did 
not  get  hurt.  The  District  Inspector  was  in  charge,  and  he  asked 
for  the  Reverend  English.  He  was  told  that  I  was  on  my  way  to 
America.  The  District  Inspector  swore  that  if  ever  he  got  his  hands 
on  me.  it  would  be  a  long  time  until  I  saw  New  York.  On  the 
mantelpiece  was  a  picture  of  George  Washington. 

Q.     Who  was  this  District  Inspector? 

A.  He  was  the  district  inspector  of  police  from  a  place  called 
Pallas.  He  took  the  picture  of  George  Washington,  threw  it  on 
the  floor,  and  put  his  heel  on  it  and  said,  "This  is  what  ought  to 
happen  to  all  these  bloody  Americans." 

That  is  all  of  my  personal  experiences. 


58 
POSSIBLE  REASONS  FOR  THE  RAID 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  at  any  time  during  your  presence 
in  that  town  participate  in  any  way  in  political  matters? 

A.  No,  I  made  up  my  mind  that  I  would  not  take  any  part  in 
politics.  I  was  asked  to  speak  on  one  occasion  in  Limerick,  but 
refused  on  that  ground. 

Q.  Did  your  father  or  brothers  participate  in  any  way  in  any 
attacks  upon   British  officers  or   authorities? 

A.     No,  not  at  any  time. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  why  they  singled  out  the 
house  where  you  were  for  this  raid? 

A.  The  explanation  which  I  think  is  feasible  is  that,  like  other 
people  in  that  part  of  the  country,  my  father  is  known  to  be  de- 
sirous of  a  Republican  government  in  Ireland.  He  has  made  no 
secret  of  it,  and  has  advocated  it  on  all  occasions.  He  happens  to 
be  one  of  the  most  prominent  farmers  in  that  part  of  the  country. 
I  suppose  that  was  one  reason.  Another  reason  is,  and  I  forgot  to 
state  it,  in  the  course  of  the  search  a  telegram  was  found  in  one  of 
the  rooms — an  old  telegram.  It  was  sent  by  me  to  my  brother.  It 
was  sent  from  Lisdoonvarna,  in  the  County  of  Clare.  I  sent  it  about 
the  first  of  August  to  my  brother  Patrick,  who  was  arrested  that 
night.  There  were  races  taking  place  in  Galway.  I  had  been  away 
from  home  about  two  weeks,  and  had  wired  to  my  brother  to  join 
me  at  the  race  meeting.  Everybody  goes  to  the  race  meetings  in 
Ireland.  I  wired  him:  "Will  you  be  able  to  come  to  the  meeting 
in  Galway?  Bring  New  York  papers."  The  major  discovered  this 
and  called  the  captain's  attention  to  it  (he  carefully  refrained  from 
calling  him  captain),  and  said,  "Here  is  something."  That  was 
pocketed.  This  bore  out  a  suspicion  they  might  have  had  that  I  was 
a  medium  for  communication  between  New  York  and  Ireland. 

Q.  This  meeting  was  a  race  meeting  and  they  interpreted  it  as  a 
political  meeting? 

A.     Yes,  evidently. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  mentioned  that  when  your 
father's  watch  was  taken,  he  asked  that  the  watch  be  returned,  and 
then  the  officer  in  command  ordered  that  he  be  taken  away.  What 
happened  to  your  father? 

A.  He  was  sent  back  when  the  lorry  left.  He  was  only  taken  to 
the  gate.    He  was  not  injured  in  any  way. 


59 

Q.     How  old  is  your  father? 

A.     About  fifty-one  years  of  age. 

Q.     A  farmer? 

A.     Yes,  a  farmer. 

Q.     How  large  a  home  have  you  there? 

A.  It  is  about  sixty  acres,  which  is  a  fair-sized  farm  in  that  part 
of  the  country. 

Q.     Did  your  brothers  work  upon  the  farm? 

A.     Yes,  with  the  exception  of  the  one  who  is  going  to  college. 

Q.     This  young  brother  of  seventeen  was  going  to  college? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  going  to  Rothwell. 

Q.  There  was  nothing  in  the  conduct  of  the  members  of  your 
family  that  would  justify  such   a  raid? 

A.  Absolutely  nothing,  except  that  our  sympathies  were  well 
known. 

Q.  Did  you  find  out  that  the  sympathies  of  the  other  people  in 
that  village  were  of  the  same  kind? 

A.  Yes,  the  sympathies  of  all  the  people  in  that  part  of  the 
country  are  Republican. 

Chairman  Howe:  Now  you  may  proceed. 

ORDINARY  EXPERIENCES  IN  IRELAND  TODAY 

The  Witness:  I  will  try  to  give  a  chronological  account  of  my 
experiences.  I  remained  in  Ireland  all  the  time,  except  for  a  brief 
visit  in  France  and  England,  up  to  my  departure  for  this  country. 
In  traveling  around  to  visit  my  friends  it  was  an  ordinary  experience 
to  be  held  up  by  the  military  on  the  country  roads.  A  motor  lorry 
would  be  alongside  the  road  surrounded  by  soldiers,  and  everybody 
in  the  car  was  searched  and  the  car  itself  was  searched,  all  except 
myself.  I  never  was  searched,  although  I  was  held  up  many  times 
with  others  who  were  searched.  These  lorries  drive  along  the  prin- 
cipal roads  almost  every  day,  going  to  and  fro  at  a  high  rate  of 
speed. 

Q.     Will  you  describe  these  lorries? 

A.  The  lorry  is  a  large  truck  with  an  automobile  engine.  It  is 
very  large.  It  seats  between  twenty  and  thirty.  In  the  large  ones 
they  have  machine  guns,  and  soldiers  or  Black-and-Tans  ( it  depends 
upon  who  is  going  in  the  lorries),  silting  along  the  side  and  in  the 
back  with  rifles  at  the  ready.  These  soldiers  and  Black-and-Tans 
frequently  fire  on  cattle  or  horses  and  destroy  them  on  their  trips 
around  the  country.  I  will  give  one  example  of  which  I  have  per- 
sonal knowledge.     About  a  half  mile  from  my  place  lives  a  neigh- 


60 

bor  in  a  cottage  by  the  road.  He  has  about  a  half  acre  of  ground. 
His  hogs  are  generally  along  the  road  by  the  house.  The  road  itself 
is  about  twenty-five  feet  wide,  and  on  either  side  there  is  a  hard 
surface.  Along  the  side  by  the  hard  surface  is  a  grassy  surface 
about  eight  to  ten  feet  wide  on  either  side.  One  afternoon  a  lorry 
was  passing  along,  and  two  pigs  were  on  the  hard  surface  between 
the  road  and  the  fence.  It  was  a  big  heavy  lorry  filled  with  sol- 
diers. The  lorry  turned  in  off  the  road  and  ran  over  the  pigs, 
breaking  the  back  of  one  and  the  legs  of  the  other,  so  that  they  had 
to  be  butchered.  I  came  along  about  a  half  hour  after  this,  and 
the  young  man  showed  me  that  the  lorry  had  turned  off  the  road 
and  ran  almost  into  the  fence  in  order  to  run  over  the  pigs.  I  give 
this  as  an  instance  of  the  mischief  they  do. 

WANTON  MURDER  OF  PATRICK  LYNCH  AT 
HOSPITAL 

On  the  night  of  the  fourteenth  of  August  there  was  a  shooting  in 
the  town  of  Hospital.  On  the  morning  of  Sunday,  the  fifteenth  of 
August,  I  went  from  my  own  place  to  the  town  of  Hospital,  and 
there  I  found  the  people  in  a  state  of  terror.  I  discovered  upon 
investigating  that  upon  the  previous  night  a  number  of  soldiers  had 
entered  the  house  of  a  man  named  Lynch,  Patrick  Lynch,  a  harness 
maker,  a  single  man  forty  years  of  age  living  with  his  two  sisters 
and  a  blind  father.  These  soldiers  had  entered  his  house  at  eleven- 
thirty  on  Saturday  night,  the  fourteenth  of  August,  while  they  were 
on  their  knees  saying  the  rosary.  They  dragged  him — or  rather 
they  first  asked  him  to  come  along.  He  said,  "Just  a  minute  until  I 
get  my  cap."  They  said,  "You  will  not  need  your  cap  in  the  place 
to  which  you  are  going."  They  took  him  out  about  a  hundred 
yards  to  a  place  called  the  Fair  Green,  the  village  square.  And 
then  they  shot  him. 

The  local  doctor  lives  in  a  place  about  fifty  yards  from  where  he 
was  shot,  and  they  dragged  him  out  and  told  him  a  man  was  shot. 
He  had  lived  in  this  town  about  thirty  years,  almost  as  long  as 
Lynch  himself.  The  doctor  saw  that  Lynch  was  dead.  There  were 
about  four  wounds  in  his  head.  His  body  was  badly  battered.  The 
powder  marks  were  on  his  face  in  such  a  way  that  the  doctor  did 
not  recognize  him.  He  asked  the  military  who  the  man  was.  He 
said,  "Does  he  live  in  this  town?"  The  doctor  knew  Lynch,  but 
he  did  not  recognize  the  body,  and  he  could  not  understand  why  he 
should  be  shot.  So  he  went  clown  with  the  military  to  Lynch's 
house,  and  knocked  on  the  door  and  asked  the  sisters  and  said.  "Is 


61 

vour  brother  home?"  They  said,  "No,  the  military  took  him  out 
about  half  an  hour  ago."     He  then  knew  it  was  Lynch. 

Q.     Had  they  notified  the  sisters? 

A.  Yes.  The  next  day  a  report  was  made  public  by  the  police 
that  Lynch  was  shot  by  the  forces  of  the  Crown  in  attempting  to 
escape  from  arrest.  An  inquest  was  arranged  for.  This  was  before 
the  abolition  of  coroners'  inquests  in  the  county  of  Limerick.  I 
believe  it  was  called  for  the  following  Saturday,  which  would  be 
about  the  first  of  August,  I  think.  At  the  request  of  the  county 
coroner,  who  corresponds  roughly  to  what  we  call  the  county  at- 
torney, the  inquest  was  postponed  for  two  weeks. 

Q.     At  whose  request? 

A.  The  county  coroner,  the  representative  of  the  British  Gov- 
ernment, requested  that  the  inquest  be  postponed.  At  the  end  of 
two  weeks  it  was  held.  I  was  present  at  the  inquest  in  Hospital 
on  Monday,  about  the  twenty-second  of  August,  if  Monday  was  the 
twenty-second  of  August.  It  was  called  for  one  o'clock  in  the 
afternoon.  The  coroner  was  there.  A  jury  was  there,  which  had 
been  summoned  by  the  Head  Constable  of  the  Constabulary  at  the 
next  police  barracks,  which  was  about  five  miles  away.  The  wit- 
nesses were  there,  and  the  audience. 

Q.     The  jury  was  not  from  that  town? 

A.  No,  the  jury  was  not  from  that  town,  but  summoned  by  the 
police  from  five  miles  away.  They  waited  for  the  appearance  of 
the  Crown  Solicitor  until  three  o'clock,  and  for  the  appearance  of 
the  witnesses  of  the  military.  Then  a  telephone  call  came  from 
Limerick  from  the  Limerick  County  Solicitor,  Gaffney,  stating  that 
his  side  would  put  in  no  witnesses.  The  inquest  was  held.  The 
doctor,  his  sisters,  and  all  the  other  witnesses  who  saw  how  the  man 
had  died  and  the  nature  of  his  wounds,  testified.  The  verdict  was 
"wilful  murder"  against  the  military  stationed  in  Hospital  at  that 
time.  As  far  as  I  could  discover,  before  I  left  Ireland  and  since, 
I  have  heard  of  no  action  whatsoever  that  was  taken  against  any 
of  those  men  who  shot  him,  although  a  verdict  of  wilful  murder, 
brought  in  under  all  the  rules  of  English  law  in  Ireland,  was 
rendered. 

Q.  Did  the  soldiers  give  any  reason  to  the  doctor,  when  they 
called  him  to  view  the  body  of  Lynch,  for  murdering  him? 

A.     No,  they  gave  no  reason  whatever. 

Q.  Do  you  know  from  your  personal  inquiries  and  investigation 
as  to  whether  Lynch  had  been  active  in  doing  anything  that  would 
anger  or  create  any  hostility  against  him? 

A.     I  know  that  Lvnch,  in   the  first   place,  was  a  man   who  was 


62 

not  in  full  possession  of  his  faculties;  he  was  not  insane,  but  he  was 
slightly  what  they  call  over  there  simple.  I  knew  him  when  I  went 
to  school  there  at  the  age  of  sixteen.  I  knew  him  as  a  very  harmless 
individual  who  never  took  part  in  politics  of  any  nature,  not  even 
in  the  old  days. 

Q.     What  explanation  do  you  give  for  the  murder  of  Lynch? 

A.  The  explanation  that  I  heard  around  there  from  the  people, 
and  which  has  since  been  verified  to  a  certain  extent,  was  that  they 
were  looking  for  some  Lynch  or  for  another  Lynch.  They  found 
that  he  was  the  only  man  of  that  name  in  Hospital,  and  they  shot 
him. 

Q.  Some  Lynch  that  they  thought  was  prominent  in  the  Repub- 
lican movement? 

A.  Yes,  some  Lynch  that  was  prominent  in  the  Republican 
movement. 

HOSPITAL  SHOT  UP 

Also  in  the  town  they  seized  the  house  of  the  man  to  whom  they 
came  first,  of  a  man  named  Sullivan.  His  house  overlooks  the  three 
short  streets  of  the  town.  They  seized  this  house  about  the  middle 
of  July — from  the  first  to  the  middle  of  July.  On  the  street  in  front 
they  built  a  barricade  of  sand  bags  and  stones,  and  in  this  barricade 
they  placed  a  machine  gun.  This  blockade  and  the  hollow  square 
inside  it  were  always  manned  by  some  soldiers.  One  afternoon 
about  a  week  after  they  had  occupied  this  house,  they  turned  the 
machine  gun  on  one  of  the  streets  of  the  town  and  raked  the  streets 
of  the  town  for  fifteen  minutes.  Fortunately,  the  people  got  word 
in  some  way  of  what  was  going  to  be  done,  and  there  was  no  one 
injured,  except  glass  broken  and  walls  injured  where  they  were  hit. 

Q.     Had  any  attacks  upon  soldiers  been  made  in  that  town? 

A.  No,  absolutely  none.  The  condition  in  Hospital  was  that 
that  was  a  police  barracks  in  Hospital  until  about  the  fifth  of  May. 
The  police  evacuated  the  barracks  about  the  fifth  of  May  and  left 
for  some  other  town.  On  the  night  that  they  evacuated  the  police 
barracks,  it  was  burned.  That  was  all  that  had  happened  in  that 
part  of  the  country  at  any  time  since  1916. 

Q.  Had  these  men  who  had  occupied  these  barracks  and  evacu- 
ated resigned? 

A.  No,  they  had  not  resigned.  They  were  moved  from  this 
barracks  and  taken  to  larger  quarters. 


63 

INDISCRIMINATE   FIRING  AND   BURNING   IN   LIM- 
ERICK CITY 

I  live  fourteen  miles  from  the  city  of  Limerick.  Frequently 
during  the  summer  I  visited  the  city,  staying  over  night  or  for 
three  or  four  days,  for  I  had  some  friends  there.  In  the  city  of 
Limerick  there  is  a  large  military  barracks  containing  on  an  average 
perhaps  six  hundred  soldiers.  And  then  there  are  two  police 
barracks,  large  ones,  containing  possibly  four  hundred,  three- 
fourths  of  whom  are  Black-and-Tans,  and  the  other  members  were 
the  old  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.  During  the 
months  in  which  I  visited  Limerick,  it  was  a  frequent  occurrence 
for  the  Black-and-Tans  to  go  out  through  the  streets  at  night,  and 
especially  in  one  section  of  the  town,  Pennywell  is  the  name  of  it, 
and  there  about  eleven  or  twelve  o'clock  let  loose  their  guns,  firing 
in  the  air  or  at  some  house.  Anyway,  nobody  was  personally  in- 
jured. I  was  present  myself  in  Limerick  one  night.  I  was  staying 
with  a  clergyman  on  the  outskirts  of  the  city.  We  had  to  walk 
through  this  district  of  Pennywell.  As  we  were  proceeding  home 
some  Black-and-Tans  passed  by  us.  Just  as  they  turned  into  another 
street  we  heard  firing,  and  concluded  it  was  the  Black-and-Tans 
firing  there.  And  so  it  was.  They  were  not  attacked.  They  did 
not  state  that  they  were  attacked.  They  were  firing  to  terrorize  the 
people.  To  such  an  extent  was  that  true  that  this  disrict  of  Penny- 
well  was  called  the  Pennywell  sector  of  the  city  of  Limerick  because 
it  was  so  often  under  fire. 

Then  again,  on  Sunday,  the  fifteenth  of  August,  on  the  day  on 
which  I  had  discovered  about  the  shooting  of  Lynch,  I  went  home 
to  my  father's  house,  about  four  miles  away.  I  heard  that  a  part 
of  Limerick  was  on  fire.  On  Monday  I  went  to  the  city  of  Limerick 
to  investigate  the  matter.  I  remained  in  Limerick  on  that  occasion 
for  three  days.  I  went  out  to  the  Pennywell  district  and  there  I 
saw  that,  according  to  my  estimation,  about  two  hundred  houses 
had  been  injured,  some  slightly  and  others  more  seriously.  I 
found  there  the  marks  of  bullets,  and  in  a  number  of  instances  the 
marks  of  bombs,  where  bombs  had  been  hurled  through  the  win- 
dows and  exploded  on  the  floors;  and  other  places  where  the  fire 
was  still  smoldering.  Whether  the  fires  were  set  by  matches  or 
by  direct  application  of  bombs,  I  do  not  know.  I  discovered  thai 
all  that  had  been  done  on  the  day  before  by  the  Black-and-Tans. 
They  also  returned  to  the  city  proper  and  set  fire  or  hurled  bombs 
into  two  business  houses,  one  of  which  was  known  as  the  Railway 
Bar,  near  the  railroad  station. 


64 

Some  time  previous  to  that,  on  Queen  Street  in  Limerick,  a  house 
belonging  to  a  man  named  Hartney  was  destroyed  at  about  mid- 
night. The  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  or  men  in 
their  uniform,  were  seen  running  away  from  the  house  about  mid- 
night. Immediately  a  tremendous  explosion  took  place  and  blew 
the  whole  front  of  the  house  down,  to  such  an  extent  that  the  second 
floor  leaned  down  on  the  first  floor.  Fortunately,  this  was  a  tea 
shop,  where  tea  and  light  lunches  were  served.  There  was  no  one 
in  the  house  on  this  night,  and  there  were  no  lives  lost. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  CREAMERIES 

Then  again,  in  regard  to  the  burning  of  creameries.  On  Tuesday, 
the  twenty-second  of  August,  I  was  passing  through  the  town  of 
Knocklong,  in  the  County  of  Limerick,  and  there  I  discovered  that 
the  creamery  was  partially  destroyed.  It  was  a  creamery  belonging 
to  a  man  named  Cleeves,  Sir  Thomas  Cleeves,  a  Unionist  in  politics. 
He  lives  in  the  city  of  Limerick,  and  had  been  knighted  by  the  late 
King  Edward.  This  creamery  was  one  of  the  largest  in  the  south 
of  Ireland,  probably  hiring  about  fifty  or  sixty  men,  and  was  worth 
about  three  hundred  thousand  dollars.  I  stopped  off  there  when  I 
saw  the  crowd  around.  It  was  partially  destroyed.  I  inquired  from 
those  around  what  had  happened.  They  told  me  that  at  about  two 
o'clock  on  that  morning  a  lorry  containing  men  in  the  uniform  of 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  appeared  in  town,  entered  the  cream- 
ery, and  threw  bombs  in  the  engine  room,  which  was  the  center  of 
the  creamery,  and  attempted  to  set  fire  to  other  rooms  in  that 
creamery,  and  then  left.  The  people,  on  the  departure  of  the  police, 
all  turned  out,  and  they  extinguished  the  fire  in  a  very  short  time 
in  the  other  part  of  the  building,  but  the  bombs  had  already  de- 
stroyed the  machinery  in  the  engine  room.  The  central  engine 
plant  of  the  creamery  was  a  total  wreck,  and  the  creamery  was  out 
of  business  and  is  as  yet.  The  result  is  that  the  farmers  in  that  part 
of  the  country — it  is  a  dairying  country — the  farmers  have  been 
compelled  to  feed  the  milk  which  they  sent  to  the  creamery  to  the 
pigs  and  calves  or  throw  it  away.  They  can  no  longer  supply  it  to 
the  creamery,  have  it  made  into  butter  and  cheese,  and  get  a  return 
for  it. 

I  must  also  state  that  no  compensation  has  at  any  time  been  made 
by  the  British  Government  for  any  of  the  work  of  destruction  that 
has  been  proved  against  its  own  forces  in  Ireland,  especially  in  the 
line  of  the  destruction  of  creameries  and  the  blowing  up  and  burn- 
ing of  houses. 


65 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  explanation  for  ihe  destruction  of  this 
creamery? 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  About  the  date  that  I  arrived  in  Ireland,  a  fresh 
correspondent  there,  one  of  the  representatives  of  the  Paris  Matin. 
had  an  interview  with  Lord  French,  the  Lieutenant  Governor  of 
Ireland.  This  was  published  in  the  papers  over  there,  the  English 
and  Irish  papers.  He  asked  French  what  the  trouble  was  in  Ireland. 
French  said  the  difficultv  in  Ireland  was  two  hundred  thousand 
young  men  who  should  have  emigrated.  I  believe  that  the  only 
possible  reason  and  the  explanation  that  I  heard  around  there  was 
that  the  reason  for  the  destruction  of  these  creameries  and  other 
business  houses  was  to  throw  out  of  employment  the  young  men 
and  compel  them  to  leave  the  country — in  addition,  of  course,  to  the 
auxiliarv  reason,  the  attempt  to  terrorize  out  of  the  minds  of  the 
people  their  hope  for  independence. 

Q.  Did  the  owner  of  this  creamery,  whom  you  state  was  a 
Lnionist,  do  anything  there  in  that  part  that  would  create  a  hostile 
feeling  toward  him? 

A.  Nothing  except  that  he  has  been  known  as  a  Unionist  in 
politics.  He  has  taken  no  part  in  politics,  however.  He  owns  large 
creameries  all  over  the  south  of  Ireland,  and  large  business  estab- 
lishments in  Limerick. 

Q.      Has  he  made  any  statement  of  this  matter? 

A.  I  am  sure  he  has  made  a  statement  to  the  British  Government, 
but  no  statement  of  his  has  been  published. 

DRUNKENNESS  AMONG  BRITISH  TROOPS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  May  I  ask  the  question:  You  have 
been  close  to  some  of  these  soldiers,  these  Black-and-Tans.  Ireland 
is  not  dry.     Have  you  noticed  any  drunkenness  among  them? 

A.  I  have.  I  have  noticed  in  the  city  of  Limerick  a  number  of 
soldiers  and  Black-and-Tans  that  were  very  ostensibly  under  the 
influence  of  liquor.  I  have  heard  it  stated  in  their  barracks  that 
they  were  given  in  their  barracks  free  drink,  in  addition  to  their 
ration,  especially  just  before  going  out  on  a  raid.  But  I  have  seen 
them  myself  very  much  under  the  influence  of  liquor. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  On  duty  or  off  duty? 

A.  It  is  very  difficult  to  tell.  I  know  that  they  are  almost  always 
on  duty. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Oh,  yes;  a  soldier  is  almost  always  on 
duty  except  when  on  leave  of  absence. 


66 

COMMANDING    OFFICER   INCITES   POLICE   TO 
VIOLENCE 

The  Witness:  Then  again  events  occurred  over  there  while  I  was 
in  Ireland.  There  was  a  charge  made  by  Divisional  Commissioner 
Smyth,  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  to  members  of  the  police 
force  in  Listowel,  in  the  County  of  Kerry.  This  charge  was  made 
about  the  fifth  of  July.  It  was  a  statement  he  made,  a  speech  he 
made  to  them  in  their  barracks.  There  were  sixteen  police  in  the 
barracks  at  the  time.  They  published  an  account  of  the  statement 
that  Mr.  Smyth  made  to  them.  They  signed  it  and  it  was  published 
in  some  of  the  Irish  papers  and  English  papers  on  Saturday,  the 
tenth  of  July.1 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  After  these  police  officers  had  resigned? 

A.  After  they  had  resigned.  The  statement  was  made  while  they 
were  official  members  of  the  police  force.  Afterwards  they  made 
it  public.  I  have -the  statement  here.  It  is  brief.  I  am  going  to 
read  it  for  you,  with  your  permission.     The  statement  says: 

Mr.  Smyth,  the  Divisional  Commissioner,  addressed  us  as  fol- 
lows: "Well,  men,  I  have  something  of  interest  to  tell  you,  some- 
thing that  I  am  sure  you  would  not  wish  your  wives  to  hear.  I 
am  going  to  lay  all  my  cards  on  the  table.  I  may  reserve  one 
card  for  myself.  Now,  men,  Sinn  Fein  has  had  all  the  sport  up 
to  the  present,  and  we  are  going  to  have  the  sport  now!  The  police 
have  done  splendid  work,  considering  the  odds  against  them.  The 
police  are  not  sufficiently  strong  to  do  anything  but  hold  their  bar- 
racks. This  is  not  enough,  for  as  long  as  we  remain  on  the  defen- 
sive, so  long  will  Sinn  Fein  have  the  whip  hand.  We  must  take 
the  offensive  and  beat  Sinn  Fein  with  its  own  tactics.  Martial  law 
applying  to  all  Ireland  is  coming  into  operation  shortly.  I  am 
promised  as  many  troops  from  England  as  I  require:  thousands 
are  coming  daily.  I  am  getting  seven  thousand  police  from  Eng- 
land. Now,  men,  what  I  wish  to  explain  to  you  is  that  you  are 
to  strengthen  your  comrades  in  the  outstations.  If  a  police  barrack 
is  burned  or  if  the  barrack  already  occupied  is  not  suitable,  then 
the  best  house  in  the  locality  is  to  be  commandeered,  the  occupants 
thrown  out  in  the  gutter.  Let  them  die  there — -the  more  the  merrier. 
Police  and  military  will  patrol  the  country  roads  at  least  five  nights 
a  week.  They  are  not  to  confine  themselves  to  the  main  roads,  but 
take  across  the  country,  lie  in  ambush,  and  when  civilians  are  seen 
approaching,  shout  'Hands  up!'     Should  the  order  be  not  obeyed, 


1  The  charge  in  question  was  made  on  the  nineteenth  of  June,  but  was 
not  published  until   several   weeks   later.     See   Report,   Appendix   "E." 


67 

shoot  and  shoot  with  effect.  If  the  persons  approaching  carry  their 
hands  in  their  pockets  or  are  in  any  way  suspicious-looking,  shoot 
them  down.  You  may  make  mistakes  occasionally  and  innocent 
persons  may  be  shot,  but  that  cannot  be  helped,  and  you  are  bound 
to  get  the  right  parties  sometimes.  The  more  you  shoot,  the  better 
I  will  like  you;  and  I  assure  you  that  no  policeman  will  get  into 
trouble  for  shooting  any  man.  Hunger  strikers  will  be  allowed  to 
die  in  jail — the  more  the  merrier.  Some  of  them  have  died  already, 
and  a  damn  bad  job  they  were  not  all  allowed  to  die.  As  a  matter 
of  fact,  some  of  them  have  already  been  dealt  with  in  a  manner 
their  friends  will  never  hear  about.  An  emigrant  ship  left  an  Irish 
port  lately  with  lots  of  Sinn  Feiners  on  board.  I  assure  you,  men, 
it  will  never  land.  That  is  nearly  all  I  have  to  say  to  you.  We 
want  your  assistance  in  carrying  out  this  scheme  and  wiping  out 
Sinn  Fein.  Any  man  who  is  not  prepared  to  do  so  is  a  hindrance 
rather  than  a  help  to  us,  and  he  had  much  better  leave  the  job 
at  once." 

This  statement  was  made  by  Commissioner  Smyth  about  the  first 
of  July  in  Listowel,  before  the  members  of  the  R.  I.  C.  Their 
spokesman  stood  out  and  said:  "We  are  Irishmen.  It  is  evident 
that  you  must  be  an  Englishman.  We  will  not  obey  these  orders." 
Smyth  turned  to  the  others  and  said,  "Arrest  this  man ! "  The  others 
refused  and  said,  "If  this  man  is  arrested,  this  room  will  run  red 
with  blood."  This  matter  caused  considerable  comment  even  in 
England.  The  subject  of  conducting  an  investigation  was  broached 
in  the  House  of  Commons.  The  speaker  of  the  House  refused  to 
allow  the  motion  for  an  investigation  to  be  put,  on  the  grounds  that 
it  was  outside  of  their  sphere  and  not  a  matter  of  very  great  impor- 
tance. Smyth  himself  did  not  deny  the  statement  that  had  been 
made.     He  simply  said  that  his  words  had  been  misinterpreted.1 

MILITARY    POSSESS    UNLIMITED    ARBITRARY 
POWER 

Another  experience  that  I  wish  to  give  you  is  one  that  I  had  in 
England.  It  pertains  to  the  affairs  in  Ireland.  On  my  way  on  the 
train  from  London  to  Holyhead — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  think  it  pertains  to  this  inquiry? 

A.  Yes,  it  does.  About  the  fifteenth  of  July  I  met  a  young  man 
on  the  train  who  told  me  he  was  an  army  officer,  a  first  lieutenant, 


1  In  consequence  of  this  speech.  Divisional  Commissioner  Smyth  was 
later  shot  and  killed  "by  parties  unknown"  at  the  Cork  County  Club 
July  18,  1920. 


68 

about  to  be  sent  to  take  command  of  his  company  in  Ireland  in  the 
County  of  Roscommon.  He  told  me  he  had  been  over  there  before 
and  was  home  on  a  furlough  for  two  weeks.  He  said,  "I  wish  to 
God  I  never  had  to  go  over  there  again."  I  said,  "Why?"  He 
said,  "Because  it  is  the  most  distasteful  work  I  have  ever  done." 
He  looked  young.  I  asked  him,  "How  old  are  you?"  He  said, 
"I  am  not  quite  twenty-two  yet,  and  only  out  of  the  military  school 
a  short  time."  I  said,  "What  is  the  nature  of  your  duties  in  Ire- 
land?" He  said,  "I  command  a  body  of  about  one  hundred  fifty 
men  in  the  County  of  Roscommon.  I  am  to  look  after  that  part 
of  the  country."  I  said,  "Are  you  given  full  jurisdiction  there?" 
He  said,  "Yes."  I  said,  "How,  for  instance,  would  you  act  in  the 
case  of  a  riot  or  in  case  your  men  were  going  through  the  country 
and  stones  were  thrown  at  them,  or  you  saw  people  who  looked  sus- 
picious?" He  said,  "I  have  the  right  to  order  my  soldiers  to  fire." 
The  reason  I  introduce  this  is  to  show  that  a  young  man  not  yet 
twenty-two  years  of  age  has  the  power  of  life  and  death  in  that  part 
of  the  country. 

THE  RESTORATION  OF  ORDER  IN  IRELAND  ACT  1 

In  regard  also  to  the  law  under  which  the  people  of  Ireland,  the 
British  law  under  which  they  are  living  today,  I  wish  to  quote  a 
couple  of  clauses  from  the  Restoration  of  Order  in  Ireland  Act. 
This  order  was  promulgated  and  put  in  force  in  Ireland  on  the 
twenty-first  or  twenty-second  of  August  last. 

"Regulations  2  and  3:  Ordained  that  any  Irish  subject  may  be 
arrested  and  tried  by  court  martial  for  an  act  done  at  any  time  in 
the  past,  which  act  was  not  at  the  time  it  was  done  but  which  is 
now  an  illegal  act." 

"Regulation  3,  Paragraph  6:  Ordained  that  any  Irish  subject 
arrested  may,  on  an  order  made  by  the  competent  naval  or  military 
authority,  be  detained  in  any  of  His  Majesty's  prisons  until  thence 
delivered  by  order  of  the  competent  naval  or  military  authority." 

"Regulation  14,  Paragraph  2:  If  any  person  has  in  his  possession 
any  document  relating  or  purporting  to  relate  to  the  affairs  of  any 
such  association  (these  are  proscribed  associations)  he  shall  be 
guilty  of  an  offense  against  the  regulation.  Where  a  person  is 
charged  with  having  in  his  possession  any  such  document  and  the 
document  is  found  on  the  premises  under  his  occupancy  or  under 
his  control  or  on  which  he  has  resided,  the  document  shall  be  pre- 
sumed to  have  been  in  his  possession  unless  the  contrary  is  true." 


Commonly  known  as  the  Coercion  Act. 


69 

Regulation  16  abolishes  the  coroners'  inquests.  Regulation  4, 
the  fifth  paragraph,  ordains  that  any  Irish  subject  can  be  sentenced 
to  death  for  political  offenses  by   these  courts  martial. 

WITNESS    INVITED    SOLELY    BY    COMMISSION 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  For  the  sake  of  having  it  appear  in  the 
record,  we  would  like  to  ask  you  to  say  who  invited  you  to  testify. 

A.     Mr.  William  MacDonald,  the  secretary  of  this  Commission. 

Q.  Have  you  come  here  solely  at  the  request  of  this  Com- 
mission ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     So  that  no  Irish  association  has  invited  you? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  The  reason  for  inviting  you  is  that  you  have  recently  been 
to  Ireland  and  know  what  is  happening  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  to  none  of  the  members  of  this  Commission 
until  today? 

A.     No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  So  that  vou  have  not  even  communicated  with  Mr.  Mac- 
Donald? 

A.     No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  F.  MARTIN 

Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  John  F.  Martin,  of  Green  Bay,  Wisconsin. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Martin,  will  you  please  qualify  yourself  profes- 
sionally? 

A.  My  name  is  John  F.  Martin.  My  residence  is  Green  Bay, 
Wisconsin,  and  my  profession  is  an  attorney-at-law. 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen? 

A.     Born  in  Green  Bay,  Wisconsin. 

Q.     Born  and  always  lived  in  Wisconsin? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     You  have  recently  been  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     When  did  you  return? 

A.     I  sailed  from  Cove  on  the  twenty-third  of  September. 

Q.     When  did  you  land  in  Ireland? 

A.     I  was  in  Ireland  seven  days.     I  might  say  that  I   went  to 


70 

Europe  not  specifically  to  visit  Ireland,  but  as  a  member  of  the 
Commission  of  the  Knights  of  Columbus  to  present  the  statue  of 
La  Fayette  and  incidentally  to  visit  France  and  to  present  to  King 
Albert  and  Cardinal  Mercier  a  medal  from  the  Knights  of  Colum- 
bus, and  to  the  latter  a  check.  I  went  from  the  duties  of  that 
Commission  to  Malignes  and  Brussels,  and  from  there  over  to 
London. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  practiced  law? 

A.     About  twenty-five  years. 

Q.     What  offices  have  you  held  in  Wisconsin? 

A.     I  have  never  held  any  office  in  Wisconsin. 

Q.     You  have  always  been  a  plain  practitioner  of  the  law? 

A.     Yes,  very  plain. 

Q.     What  office  have  you  in  the  Knights  of  Columbus? 

A.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Supreme  Council  of  the  Knights  of 
Columbus. 

Q.     How  long  were  you  in  Ireland? 

A.  Seven  days.  I  went  into  Dublin  on  the  sixteenth  of  Septem- 
ber. My  observations  in  Dublin  would  probably  be  not  worth 
while.  They  were  similar  to  those  of  Mr.  Morgan.  I  wanted  to 
visit  Limerick,  which  was  the  birthplace  of  my  mother;  but  I  was 
advised  that  there  was  railway  trouble.  I  wished  also  to  visit 
Tipperary,  but  was  informed  that  I  could  do  that  better  by  auto 
than  by  train.  So  I  arranged  to  go  by  auto,  accompanied  by  a 
British  subject,  Mr.  J.  J.  Leary,  of  Saskatoon. 

Q.     You  say  he  was  a  British  subject?     Of  what  nationality? 

A.     He  was  a  Canadian  of  Irish  parentage. 

THE  WAR  ZONE  AROUND  LIMERICK 

We  left  our  bags  in  Dublin  and  went  by  auto  over  to  Tipperary, 
and  then  sought  a  conveyance  to  Limerick.  We  had  considerable 
difficulty  in  procuring  a  conveyance  to  Limerick,  but  finally,  after 
very  diligent  search,  we  got  a  man  who  promised  to  take  us  over. 
When  he  came  to  the  hotel  he  had  a  very  dilapidated  Ford  car, 
with  half  the  hood  gone  and  with  one  headlight  that  would  not 
work.  Without  knowing  anything  of  the  experiences  to  encounter, 
we  went  along  to  Limerick  Junction  and  Oola.  We  suddenly  came 
across  a  great  stone  wall  built  across  the  road  at  Pallas.  This 
stone  wall  was  about  six  feet  high  and  three  or  four  feet  thick,  with 
an  opening  in  the  center  just  wide  enough  to  permit  a  car  to  pass 
through.  To  the  right-hand  end  of  it,  it  circled  around  a  house 
built  up  close  to  the  road.     I  might  say  that  many  houses  in  that 


71 

country  are  built  up  close  to  the  road.  It  was  about  a  two-story 
house  with  a  flat  roof.  We  got  within  perhaps  a  hundred  feet  of 
this  stone  wall  when  we  saw  six  or  eight  men  in  uniform  back  of 
the  wall.  Three  of  them  stepped  to  their  rifles,  which  were  resting 
on  the  wall,  and  one  to  a  machine  gun.  One  man  was  parading 
on  the  rather  flat  roof  with  a  rifle,  and  all  four  were  trained  directly 
on  us.  The  men  behind  the  wall  were  aiming  at  us,  and  the  man 
with  the  machine  gun  as  well.  They  yelled  at  us,  accompanied  by 
the  command  to  halt.  I  might  suggest  that  less  would  have  stopped 
us.  After  they  had  us  thus  covered,  three  men  in  uniform  came 
out  to  search  us.  They  did  a  very  thorough  job,  searched  the  car, 
asked  some  questions,  particularly  of  the  driver.  ,  They  wanted 
especially  to  learn  where  we  were  going,  and  if  we  expected  to  come 
back  through  there  that  night.  They  finally  let  us  go  with  the 
statement  that  we  must  get  back  by  nine  o'clock  if  we  expected  to 
get  through  there.  We  decided  we  would  be  back  before  nine 
o'clock.' 

We  went  over  to  Limerick  and  passed  about  an  hour  driving 
about  Limerick.  Owing  to  the  nine  o'clock  restriction  at  Pallas, 
we  abandoned  my  intention  of  visiting  a  little  town  not  far  from 
Limerick.  On  the  streets  we  observe'd  not  hundreds  but  thousands 
of  men  in  uniform,  it  seemed  to  me.  As  we  were  driving  along, 
suddenly  there  sped  out  in  the  street  in  front  of  our  car  six,  seven, 
or  eight  large  fellows  dressed  in  black  uniforms.  One  whipped  a 
revolver  out  of  his  back  pocket  and  commanded  the  driver  to  halt. 
He  did  not  stop  the  engine,  because  it  was  almost  impossible  to 
start  the  old  engine  after  it  was  once  stopped.  They  insisted,  and 
the  officer  in  charge  of  them  commanded  him  to  stop  the  engine. 
The  officer  became  very  abusive,  and  asked  the  driver  some  questions 
about  his  permit  to  drive  about  in  that  part  of  the  country.  The 
young  man  was  not  the  owner  of  the  car,  but  only  the  driver.  It 
seemed  that  his  permit  was  in  the  name  of  the  owner.  The  official 
spokesman  said,  "Young  man,  you  will  go  along  with  us."  This 
was  a  little  disconcerting  to  us,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  our  baggage 
was  at  Limerick  Junction,  twenty-five  miles  away.  I  ventured  to 
say  something  to  the  officer:  "Perhaps  you  overlooked  the  fact  that 
I  am  an  American  citizen.  I  am  here  under  a  passport" — which  I 
produced  and  showed  to  them — "and  this  young  man  is  under  my 
employ.  We  hired  him  this  afternoon  to  take  us  over  here  and 
bring  us  back  to  Limerick  Junction.  This  man  with  me  is  a  Cana- 
dian citizen.  I  presume  that  he  has  a  right  to  travel  here.  I  am 
going  to  object  to  your  right  to  interfere  with  my  progress.  I  am 
due  back  at  Limerick  Junction  tonight."     He  examined  my  passport 


72 

and  rather  insolently  tossed  it  back  to  me.  I  said,  "I  have  further 
proof" — a  ticket  that  I  bought  at  Dublin  for  Mallow.  He  looked 
that  over  and  finally  he  turned  to  the  driver  of  the  car  and  said: 
"On  account  of  these  men  with  you,  you  may  go  on  this  time,  but 
don't  let  us  find  you  here  again  or  you  will  not  get  through." 

We  hastened  back  to  get  through  Pallas  before  the  curfew  hour. 
Incidentally,  the  lights  did  not  work,  and  we  had  some  tire  trouble. 
We  got  to  Pallas  a  little  late,  but  explained  that  tire  trouble  had 
detained  us,  and  we  were  allowed  to  go  through  without  headlights. 
A  little  later  we  observed  a  lorry  coming  down  the  road  with  great 
large  headlights.  Our  driver  pulled  alongside  the  road.  The  lorry 
stopped  and  searched  us,  but  found  nothing  objectionable.  We 
were  allowed  to  go  on,  and  got  back  to  our  hotel. 

RAIDS,  TERRORISM,  AND  DESTRUCTION  IN  IRISH 
CITIES 

The  next  day  we  went  down  to  Killarney.  We  found  the  largest 
hotel  there — I  think  it  is  the  Southwestern,  the  largest  hotel  there — 
commandeered  by  the  military  and  surrounded  by  a  barbed-wire 
entanglement,  around  which  were  soldiers  and  officers  parading. 

The  next  morning  at  ten  o'clock  we  saw  in  front  of  that  place 
eighty  or  ninety  soldiers,  and  saw  them  march  down  and  make  a 
raid  on  the  Presentation  Convent,  a  place  where  they  manufacture 
a  very  special  brand  of  Irish  lace,  the  excuse  being  that  they  sus- 
pected that  firearms  were  there. 

We  went  from  there  to  Cork,  where  we  saw  a  greater  number  of 
motor  lorries  than  at  any  other  place.  They  were  driving  through 
the  streets  at  a  rapid  rate  of  speed,  sending  the  people  helter-skelter, 
and  promiscuously  bent  on  frightening  them.  They  were  loaded 
as  has  been  described  to  you  before.  The  rear  part  of  the  lorry 
has  a  body,  say,  three  feet  high.  In  this  the  men  were  standing  or 
looking  over  the  top  of  the  body,  all  with  their  rifles  ready.  We 
were  told  that  night  that  two  men  were  shot  because  they  had  failed 
to  comply  with  the  curfew  law,  which  hour  is  ten  o'clock  there. 

We  went  to  Cove,  from  which  we  were  going  to  sail  on  the 
twenty-third.  We  learned  down  there  that  the  town  had  been  sacked 
and  a  reprisal  made  because  of  the  killing  of  a  soldier  at  a  little 
town,  I  think  Midleton,  about  fifteen  miles  outside  of  Cove.  Hav- 
ing the  conditions  described  to  us  by  the  young  lady  in  the  hotel, 
we  walked  down  the  street  to  make  some  observations.  I  personally 
counted,  beginning  at  the  Queen's  Hotel  and  going  up  the  street, 
within  five  blocks  eighty  plate-glass  windows  broken  on  both  sides 


73 

of  the  street.  The  little  round  holes  in  the  broken  windows  looked 
like  bullet  holes,  but  we  were  informed  that  they  were  not;  that 
they  were  made  by  what  they  call  trench  hammers.  The  lady  who 
lived  up  at  the  end  of  where  this  district  began  said  that  late  at  night 
a  band  of  soldiers  came  charging  up  the  street.  The  officer  in 
charge  said,  "Not  a  window  left  from  here  down  to  the  station," 
and  the  work  began. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  They  were  broken  by  mallets? 

A.  Yes;  most  of  them  were  small,  round  holes,  apparently  like 
the  hole  of  a  stone.  They  said  it  was  a  small,  round  hammer  that 
struck  it. 

That  is  all  that  I  think  would  be  of  any  interest  to  you.  I  left 
there  on  the  afternoon  of  the  twenty-third. 

POLITICAL    UNANIMITY    OF    IRISH    PEOPLE    UN- 
AFFECTED BY  RELIGIOUS  ISSUES 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  What  did  you  find  among  the  people, 
a  spirit  of  terror? 

A.  Yes,  I  found  that.  But  if  I  may  give  the  results  of  my 
conversations,  there  was  an  absolute  unanimity  of  opinion  among 
the  people  that  they  were  going  to  stick  it  out  until  they  got  the 
right  to  govern  themselves.  I  talked,  going  out  of  Dublin  on  the 
train,  with  a  man  who  appeared  to  be  a  very  distinguished  gentle- 
man, who  told  about  the  raid  that  took  place  at  his  home  about 
a  week  before,  while  he  was  away  at  the  races.  A  dozen  or  more 
men,  all  masked,  came  about  midnight,  searched  his  house  for 
munitions  and  firearms,  and  finally  found  one  sporting  gun.  His 
daughters  were  very  much  aroused  and  excited.  The  next  day  the 
military  came  along  for  the  same  purpose.  I  said,  "I  assumed  that 
when  you  told  about  this  first  raid,  you  were  speaking  about  the 
military?"  He  said,  "Oh,  no,  I  was  speaking  about  the  Sinn 
Feiners,  and  I  was  damn  glad  they  got  there  first,  for  I  would 
rather  have  them  get  it  than  the  military.  They  probably  heard 
the  military  intended  to  raid  my  house  for  arms,  and  so  they  beat 
them  to  it."  He  said,  "My  name  is  Kirk.  I  am  not  a  Catholic. 
You  Americans  think  that  we  are  not  in  agreement  over  here  because 
in  some  places  there  have  been  religious  differences.  But  when  it 
comes  to  politics  we  are  all  Irish,  and  we  believe  in  the  right  of 
Irishmen  to  govern  themselves." 

At  Killarney  we  stopped  at  the  Glede  Hotel.  Mr.  Graham,  a 
Scotchman,  was  the  proprietor.  He  said,  "We  are  all  of  one  thought 
politically,  and  religion  does  not  enter  into  it  at  all." 


74 

WITNESS   COMES   SOLELY   AT   REQUEST   OF   COM- 
MISSION 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  did  you  happen  to  become  a  witness 
here? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  got  a  telegram  from  here  signed  William 
MacDonald.1 

Q.     That  was  all? 

A.  Yes.  I  am  a  little  curious  to  know  how  you  knew  that  I 
was  in  Ireland. 

Q.  It  was  through  newspaper  reports.  You  came  solely  at  the 
Commission's  request? 

A.     I  came  at  Mr.  MacDonald's  request;   at  his  request  only. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  much  territory  did  you  cover  in 
Ireland? 

A.  I  went  to  Dublin  for  two  days,  and  then  down  to  Limerick, 
about  one  hundred  miles,  and  then  down  by  train  to  Killarney,  and 
over  to  Cork,  and  then  down  to  Cove. 

Q.     Two  or  three  hundred  miles  altogether? 

A.     I  should  think  so,  about  that. 

Q.  These  conditions  you  have  described  are  fairly  typical  in 
those  towns? 

A.  I  think  they  are  much  worse  in  the  north  of  Ireland.  By 
reading  the  newspapers  after  I  got  back  I  find  that  we  are  not 
getting  very  much  information  over  here.  They  are  much  worse 
in  the  north  of  Ireland. 

PEOPLE   ESTABLISHING    THEIR    OWN    POLITICAL 
INSTITUTIONS 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  people  are  forming  their  own  civil 
processes  there? 

A.  Yes.  A  young  man  of  our  party  was  fortunate  enough  to 
get  into  a  Republican  court,  and  he  found  that  the  people  of  Ireland 
are  submitting  their  questions  to  their  own  courts  and  are  perfectly 
glad  to  do  so. 

Q.     There  is  a  de  facto  political  life  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the 
industrial  conditions  of  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  a  little. 


Dr.  William  MacDonald,  Secretary  of  the  Commission. 


75 

Senator  Walsh:  Don't  you  think  that  a  witness  like  Mr.  Hackett 
could  give  us  more  about  that? 

The  Witness:  The  industrial  life  was  very  prosperous  until  the 
attacks  on  the  creameries  got  in  vogue,  and  that,  of  course,  is  putting 
them  out  of  business. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 


TESTIMONY  OF  REV.  DR.  JAMES  H. 
COTTER 

Chairman  Howe:  Reverend  James  H.  Cotter,  of  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     What  is  your  full  name? 

A.     Reverend  Doctor  James  H.  Cotter. 

Q.     Where  are  you  stationed? 

A.     Saint  Laurence  Church,  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     You  are  the  pastor  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  that  town? 

A.  Thirty-one  years,  over  thirty-one  years.  In  addition  to  being 
pastor,  I  would  say  that  I  am  on  the  staff  of  The  Columbiad,  the 
Knights  of  Columbus  organ. 

Q.  That  is  to  say  that  you  are  a  member  of  the  editorial  staff 
of  the  Knights  of  Columbus  official  organ? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  a  Catholic  priest? 

A.     Thirty-eight  years. 

Q.  All  of  that  time  your  work  has  been  confined  to  the  State 
of  Ohio? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.     County  Tipperary,  Ireland. 

Q.     How  old  were  you  when  you  came  to  America? 

A.     Fifteen  years. 

Q.     Have  you  recently  visited  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     I  have  been  there  for  eight  weeks  exactly. 

Q.     What  months? 

A.  From  the  twenty-third  of  July  to  the  twenty-third  of  Sep- 
tember. 

Q.     How  long  since  you  last  visited  Ireland? 

A.     Twenty-three  years. 

Q.     What  was  the  occasion  of  your  visit  to  Ireland  at  this  time? 

A.  I  went  to  visit  Ireland  because  I  was  anxious  to  see  for  my- 
self the  conditions  there. 


76 

Q.     Not  for  the  purpose  of  printing  in  any  newspaper? 

A.  Only  as  a  result.  I  was  for  six  years  the  editor  of  the  Union 
and  Times,  of  Buffalo,  and  I  was  then  for  three  years  editor  of  the 
Columbia,  of  Columbus,  Ohio,  and  then  for  a  while  I  was  on  the 
staff  of  the  Columbiad. 

Q.  So  that  you  were  desirous,  for  personal  reasons  and  also 
for  newspaper  purposes,  of  studying  the  conditions  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  so  that  I  would  know  the  questions  intelligently  and 
could  discuss  them  editorially. 

Q.  Will  you  relate  to  us  your  personal  investigations  of  lawless- 
ness and  military  conditions  in  Ireland? 

A.  When  I  went  to  Ireland  first  I  landed  in  Dublin  on  the 
twenty-third  of  July.  I  was  not  long  in  Ireland  before  I  learned 
that  England's  sole  purpose  was  to  tempt  the  Volunteers  *  into  the 
open  in  order  to  mercilessly  shoot  them  down.  Ireland's  sole  pur- 
pose— it  was  a  surprise  to  me,  knowing  that  they  were  an  enthusi- 
astic and  political  race — was  to  curb  their  passions,  their  indigna- 
tion, and  anger. 

NO  RELIGIOUS  QUESTION  INVOLVED  IN  REPUB- 
LICAN MOVEMENT 

The  first  question  that  I  desired  to  study  was  the  religious  ques- 
tion, naturally,  as  a  sequence  of  my  own  profession.  As  my  mother 
was  a  Protestant,  I  went  to  see  my  niece,  who  was  married  to  an 
Episcopal  rector,  Reverend  William  Stewart,  of  Keenish  Rectory, 
Enniskillen.     That  was  as  far  north  as  I  dared  to  go. 

Q.     How  far  north  is  that? 

A.     It  is  in  Fermanagh,  one  of  the  nine  counties  of  Ulster. 

I  went  to  see  my  niece,  who  is  married  to  this  gentleman,  and  I 
was  very  curious  to  fathom  his  mind,  since  he  lived  in  the  north 
and  differed  from  me  in  religious  principle.  I  found  him  very 
much  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement,  and  disowning 
the  fact  that  there  was  anything  like  a  religious  difference  in  the 
movement.  I  in  his  presence  drew  the  distinction  between  the 
Protestants  of  Ireland  and  the  Orangemen.  I  held  that  the  Protes- 
tants of  Ireland  were  good  and  very  sincere  men,  who  served  their 
God  through  their  fellow  men;  while  the  Orangemen  had  only  a 
creed  of  hatred  begotten  by  the  devil. 

I  also  went  to  see  some  relatives  in  Ballyeagan.  I  found  the 
same   conditions   there.      They    did   not    ask    what   their   neighbor's 


1  The   Irish   Volunteers,   the   nucleus    from   which   the   Irish   Republican 
Army  has  been  formed. 


77 

faith  was  when  it  was  a  question  of  devotion  to  country  and  a  desire 
for  liberty.  And  at  Ballingarry,  where  I  have  some  more  Protes- 
tant relatives.  I  found  the  same  thing  is  true  there. 

I  also  met  some  editors,  or  rather  authors,  since  I  was  an  author 
myself.  I  met  Darrell  Figgis,  a  Protestant  author  in  Ireland.  He 
holds  a  position  in  the  Republican  Government  of  Ireland.  I  also 
met  Erskine  Childers,  whose  book,  "Military  Rule  in  Ireland,"  I 
have  here  and  with  your  permission  will  place  in  evidence. 

Q.     Is  that  recently  published? 

A.  It  is  a  revised  edition  of  "Military  Rule  in  Ireland,"  pub- 
lished not  long  ago. 

Q.     What  is  the  date  of  publication? 

A.     Mr.  MacDonald:  Here  is  the  date,  1920. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  the  author  of  that  a  member  of  the  Re- 
publican Party? 

A.  He  holds  a  state  office  in  the  Republican  Government  of 
Ireland. 

Q.     Do  you  happen  to  know  his  religion? 

A.     Protestant.     These  are  all  Protestants. 

Q.  You  are  now  dealing  with  your  experiences  with  Protestant 
people  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes.  As  far  as  I  have  gone  they  are  all  Protestant  people  in 
different  parts  of  Ireland,  in  the  north  and  in  the  south.  Mr.  Figgis 
lives  in  Dublin.  Mrs.  Bryce  entertained  me  for  an  afternoon  in  her 
home  in  Bantry  Bay.  Mrs.  Bryce  is  the  sister-in-law  of  Ambassador 
Bryce,  who  was  in  this  country.  She  was  such  a  radical  Sinn 
Feiner  that  I  have  learned  she  was  once  put  in  jail.  She  was  going 
to  Wales  to  lecture  on  the  labor  question,  and  while  going  she  was 
arrested  and  put  in  jail  for  five  hours.  Then  I  met  Mrs.  Waddell, 
of  Achill,  in  western  Ireland.  She  is  one  who  is  heart  and  head 
with  the  Republican  movement. 

Q.     She  is  a  Protestant  also? 

A.  Yes,  Senator,  I  saw  Protestants  especially  because  I  wanted 
to  get  the  other  side  of  the  question,  to  see  if  there  was  any  truth 
at  all  in  the  assertion  that  it  was  a  religious  question. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  This  Mrs.  Waddell? 

A.  Mrs.  Waddell  is  a  very  wealthy  lady  whose  estates  are  in 
Russia.  She  lives  in  the  west  of  Ireland.  Her  estates  there  are  in 
Galway. 

Then  there  is  Mr.  Biggs,  a  Protestant  gentleman  of  Bantry,  who, 
because  he  put  a  notice  in  the  paper  sympathizing  with  the  move- 
ment and  deprecating  English  propaganda,  particularly  the  brand 
Americans   got,   his   store,   valued   at   thirty   thousand   pounds,   was 


78 

burned  immediately  afterwards — I  think  it  was  the  next  day  or  the 
next  night,  immediately  after  his  declaration  in  the  local  paper. 
Then  his  magnificent  home  was  commandeered  by  the  military 
some  short  time  after  the  burning  of  his  store. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  any  judicial  action  taken  to  determine 
who  burned  and  destroyed  his  store  and  place  of  business? 

A.  It  was  generally  understood,  and  although  no  court  was  ever 
held  on  it,  it  was  understood  that  it  was  the  work  of  the  military 
police. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  that  destruction,  approximately? 

A.     It  was  previous,  Senator,  to  my  going  to  Ireland. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  long  before? 

A.     Something  like  a  week  before. 

Q.     Did  you  see  that  man  himself? 

A.     No,  I  did  not  interview  him. 

Q.     Just  talked  with  him? 

A.  No,  I  did  not  see  him,  but  it  was  very  well  known  there.  It 
was  taken  as  a  maxim  that  it  was  the  work  of  the  military  as  a 
matter  of  revenge. 

Q.     For  his  public  utterances  of  sympathy  with  the  Republic? 

A.     For  his  public  utterances  of  sympathy. 

CONDITION     IN     ULSTER     "LABORIOUSLY     ARTI- 
FICIAL" 

To  Ulster  I  did  not  go,  but  I  learned  that  the  condition  there 
was  laboriously  artificial — I  mean  as  an  argument  against  the  Re- 
publican form  of  government  for  Ireland.  It  is  a  mixture  of  fanati- 
cism and  the  cry,  "To  hell  with  the  Pope,"  in  order  to  keep  the 
laborers  in  the  linen  factories  of  Belfast  away  from  the  realization 
of  the  hell  from  which  they  themselves  were  suffering.  Some  of 
the  girls  there  are  working  for  a  miserable  pittance  in  water  up 
to  their  ankles  all  day.  It  is  well  known  that  these  linen  factories 
are  the  subjects  of  great  profit.  Among  the  proprietors  are  Sir 
Edward  Carson  and  Bonar  Law.     Regarding  what  I  saw  myself — 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Before  you  take  up  that,  Doctor,  did  you 
learn  from  these  people  with  whom  you  had  interviews  as  to  the 
sentiment  among  their  neighbors  and  parishioners,  among  people 
of  Protestant  faith? 

The  Witness:  Will  you  kindly  repeat  the  question? 

Q.  You  have  told  us  of  the  sentiment  that  these  individuals  have 
produced  to  you.  Did  they  communicate  to  you  the  sentiment 
among  their  Protestant  neighbors  and  parishioners? 


79 

A.  Yes,  they  remarked  that  their  neighbors  did  not  know  what 
the  faith  of  their  other  neighbors  was;  that  they  were  all  for  the 
Republic.  They  were  not  interested  in  the  other  things.  It  was  an 
issue  which  they  met  on  common  ground,  and  did  not  bother  their 
heads  about  inquiring  as  to  the  religious  convictions  of  the  other 
parties  interested. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  any  Protestant  men  or  women,  or  did  you  hear 
of  any,  that  are  out  of  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement? 

A.  Not  one.  As  I  stated,  it  is  a  laboriously  artificial  condition 
that  they  have  a  great  difficulty  to  preserve  in  its  present  artificial 
state  in  the  north. 

Q.  You  indicated  that  that  is  due  to  the  efforts  on  the  part  of 
the  manufacturing  interests  to  divert  their  employees'  attention  from 
organizing  so  as  to  better  their  conditions? 

A.  Yes.  And  that  was  confirmed  by  a  passenger  coming  over, 
a  Protestant  gentleman  who  was  leaving  Belfast  because  of  the 
fanaticism  that  was  guilty  of  such  wild  work  there.  He  was  leaving 
Belfast  forever  and  coming  to  this  country.  He  confirmed  the 
thought  that  I  had  got  elsewhere. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Now  will  you  continue? 

MURDER  OF  MAYOR  MAC  CURTAIN  CLOAKED  BY 
HYPOCRISY 

A.  Yes.  I  want  you  to  know,  Senator,  very  particularly  about 
the  murder  of  Mayor  MacCurtain,  of  Cork,  for  the  reason  that  a 
thousand  pounds  reward — oh,  yes,  here  it  is;  this  affair,  the  burn- 
ing of  Mr.  Biggs's  place  of  business  was  on  July  twenty-sixth — 
a  thousand  pounds  reward  was  offered  in  the  American  papers  for 
the  arrest  and  conviction  of  the  Sinn  Feiners  that  murdered  Mayor 
MacCurtain,  of  Cork.  I  was  very  anxious  to  know  how  that  ques- 
tion stood,  because  of  the  hypocrisy  that  cloaked  the  crime.  So  I 
went  to  Cork  and  interviewed  one  of  the  jurors.  I  will  not  mention 
his  name,  for  the  reason  that  I  would  be  fearful  that  something 
might  happen  to  him  as  a  result  of  the  interview.  He  said:  "Dr. 
Cotter,  that  street  was  guarded  by  the  military.  The  converging 
street  was  guarded  by  the  police.  And  in  from  the  band  of  police 
went  eight  policemen  and  murdered  the  mayor  of  Cork" — Mayor 
MacCurtain,  who  preceded  immediately  Mayor  MacSwiney;  as 
afterwards  his  sister-in-law  told  me  in  Brixton  Prison  in  London, 
murdered  him  with  his  babe  in  his  arms.  A  policeman's  button 
was  found  on  the  floor,  but  never  was  the  circumstance  considered 
at  all.     The  verdict  of  the  jury   was  that  Mayor  MacCurtain   was 


80 

murdered  by  Lloyd  George,  by  Field  Marshal  French,  Lord  Lieu- 
tenant of  Ireland;  by  Ian  MacPherson,  by  Swanzy,  the  district  in- 
spector of  police,  and  some  unknown  members  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary. 

Q.     Was  that  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury? 

A.     That  was  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury. 

Q.     Formed  under  English  law? 

A.     Yes,  before  they  were  abolished.     They  are  abolished  now. 

Q.  I  suppose  that  the  verdicts  were  so  often  against  the  English 
Government  that  they  thought  it  wise  to  abolish  them? 

A.     I  do  not  know  why,  but  the  fact  is  that  they  were  abolished. 

Again  I  say  that  I  have  a  hesitancy  in  mentioning  names  of  per- 
sons, because  I  believe  it  would  be  productive  of  disaster  to  them. 
Just  as  you  know  of  men  whom  you  have  summoned  and  who  will 
not  get  their  passport,  and  who  are  in  jail;  like  the  guard  of  honor 
of  eight  who  were  sent  over  to  accompany  the  remains  of  Mayor 
MacSwiney  and  are  now  in  jail;  they  never  came  back  from  Eng- 
land. 

DUM-DUM    BULLET   FIRED    AT    MISS    MACSWINEY 

In  Cork  I  was  shown  by  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  the  sister  of  the 
late  Lord  Mayor,  I  was  shown  by  her  a  bullet  that  flattens  as  it 
strikes.  It  was  fired  and  intended  for  her,  but  went  wide  of  the 
mark.  This  was  a  dum-dum  bullet.  It  was  not  made  in  Ireland. 
There,  instead  of  having  a  munitions  factory,  if  you  carry  a  gun 
you  get  two  years  or  anywhere  around  that. 

NIGHTLY  TERRORISM  IN  CORK 

The  curfew  is  the  cloak  for  night  work.  In  Cork  first  came  down 
from  the  barracks  armed  lorries,  armed  motor  cars. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  these  yourself? 

A.  Yes.  At  ten  o'clock  or  a  little  before  ten — ten  o'clock  was 
the  hour  for  the  curfew,  but  they  used  to  come  a  little  before — 
these  motor  cars  filled  with  soldiers  with  their  guns  at  the  ready  and 
fixed  bayonets.  They  would  be  accompanied  often  with  tanks  and 
searchlights. 

Q.     And  this  happened  every  night? 

A.  Every  night.  And  then  the  night  made  hideous  with  shots 
and  shouts,  making  you  tremble  because  of  the  indifference  of  the 
parties  themselves  and  the  lack  of  responsibility,  as  the  sequel 
proves. 


A.     Down  Patrick  Street,  the  principal  street  in  Cork. 

REPRISALS    BASED    ON    MANUFACTURED 
PRETENSE 

Now,  to  give  you  an  instance  of  the  way  they  found  a  pretense 
for  what  they  called  reprisals.  A  reprisal  is  a  word  that  has  an 
English  and  not  a  general  meaning.  It  is  an  elastic  term  not  found 
in  our  dictionary,  but  used  by  England  at  the  present  hour  to  justify 
any  barbarity  that  has  no  connection  whatsoever  outside  of  manu- 
factured reason.  Right  opposite  the  Victoria  Hotel,  on  the  side- 
walk, there  was  a  hand  grenade  thrown — on  the  sidewalk!  The 
soldiery  made  this  a  reason  for  raiding  the  Cork  Examiner's  office, 
directly  opposite  the  Victoria  Hotel,  and  a  shop  called  the  Black 
Thorn  Shop,  where  one  hundred  pounds'  worth  of  stuff  was  taken. 
That  night  the  raid  was  made,  and  they  made  the  hand  grenade 
the  reason  for  that  action.  The  hand  grenade,  however,  came  on 
the  sidewalk.  You  have  to  suppose  either  one  of  two  things:  either 
that  the  man  who  owned  the  house  had  thrown  a  hand  grenade  from 
his  own  house  at  his  own  window,  or  that  a  man  on  the  sidewalk 
threw  it  at  his  toe.  It  evidently  came  from  the  center  of  the  street 
because  of  its  marked  destination.  And  yet  that  was  made  a  reason 
for  raiding  the  newspaper  office  and  the  Black  Thorn  Shop.  I  give 
this  as  an  instance  of  a  manufactured  reason  for  wanton  conduct. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  the  claim  was  made  that  this  hand 
grenade  was  thrown  from  the  window  of  this  establishment  at  a 
soldier  or  at  an  officer? 

A.     It  could  not  have  happened. 

Q.     But  was  that  the  claim  made? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  claim  made. 

Q.     But  you  are  saying  why  the  claim  was  invented? 

A.  Yes;  the  claim  was  that  they  were  justified  in  the  reprisals 
because  the  hand  grenade  was  thrown  at  them.  How,  nobody  could 
figure  out. 

Q.     But  this  happened  while  you  were  there? 

A.  Just  the  day  before  I  came  to  Cork  they  were  raiding  the 
Cork  Examiner  s  office.  When  Mr.  Ryan,  who  owned  the  Black 
Thorn  Shop,  reported  the  theft  of  one  hundred  pounds'  worth  of 
his  property  to  the  general  in  charge  of  the  troops,  he  was  told 
that  his  application  was  not  mannerly.  The  letter  was  pasted  up  in 
the  shop  window,  and  that  was  the  gist  of  it  all. 


82 

SOLDIERS   EQUIPPED   FOR  WAR   LINE  STREETS 

From  Cork  I  went  to  Queenstown.  It  was  about  the  end  of  July 
or  the  first  of  August.  I  went  to  the  boat  regatta  that  they  have 
there.  In  the  evening  the  little  boys,  as  part  of  the  play  of  the 
day,  had  a  donkey  race.  They  raced  down  the  street  on  donkeys. 
They  had  to  go  through  a  line  of  soldiers  with  loaded  guns  and 
fixed  bayonets.     I  saw  that  from  the  window  of  the  Rob  Roy  Hotel. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  learn  that  that  was  a  nightly  occur- 
rence for  these  soldiers  with  fixed  bayonets  to  be  on  the  main 
thoroughfare? 

A.  '  They  are  always  on  the  main  thoroughfares  whenever  they 
can  accommodate  them.  For  instance,  in  Limerick  they  were  having 
a  mass  in  one  of  the  churches  at — 

Q.     Did  you  see  that? 

A.     Yes,  I  saw  it. 

Senator  Walsh:  We  only  want  what  you  saw  personally. 

The  Witness:  I  was  on  the  outside.  The  crowd  came  out  of  the 
church  onto  the  street.  While  they  were  saying  mass  the  soldiers 
came  and  stacked  arms  and  fixed  bayonets  and  made  sounds  to 
indicate  to  people  that  they  were  there.  And  then  they  picked  up 
their  arms  and  passed  on.  It  was  really  an  interruption  of  a  re- 
ligious service. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  there  anything  else  in  Queenstown  besides 
the  instance  you  refer  to? 

A.  Nothing,  except  that  when  they  were  having  their  little  dance 
— some  little  girls  had  a  step  dance  on  the  platform  after  the  boat 
race; — the  soldiers  were  massed  on  the  platform  right  near  with  their 
loaded  guns  and  fixed  bayonets. 

RAIDS,   REPRISALS,   AND    KILLINGS   IN    LIMERICK 
AND  GALWAY 

In  Limerick  five  times  in  succession  they  raided  at  two  o'clock 
in  the  morning  the  house  of  a  lady  and  her  three  daughters.  The 
last  time  the  Black-and-Tans  came  in  there  perfectly  drunk.  They 
did  not  know  what  they  were  doing.  One  of  them  took  a  bayonet 
and  was  ripping  up  an  oak  floor. 

Q.     From  whom  did  you  get  this  information? 

A.     From  the  parties  themselves. 

Q.     You  visited  the  house? 

A.     Yes,  I  visited  the  house. 

Q.     How  soon  after  these  raids  had  been  made? 

A.     About  a  week  following. 


83 

Q.     What  was  the  pretended  purpose  of  these  raids? 

A.  The  pretended  purpose  was  to  search  for  arms  or  for  persons 
carrying  arms  or  for  those  who  were  on  the  run — that  is,  those  who, 
if  they  were  caught,  would  be  put  in  jail,  and  so  they  sleep  away 
from  their  homes. 

The  curfew  was  put  on  in  Limerick  after  two  drunken  soldiers 
had  been  relieved  of  their  revolvers.  A  whole  street  called  Kerry 
Row,  a  street  where  everybody  was  exceedingly  poor,  was  raided  in 
reprisal.  I  went  into  their  houses  and  saw  the  results  and  sympa- 
thized with  them.  The  windows  were  all  broken  and  everything 
smashed.  The  butts  of  guns  and  bullets  did  not  have  far  to  go  in 
order  to  destroy  everything  those  poor  people  had. 

Q.     What  was  the  occasion  of  this  destruction? 

A.     The  taking  of  two  revolvers  from  drunken  soldiers. 

Q.     This  followed  that  act? 

A.  This  followed  that  act.  I  mention  it  to  show  that  there  is  no 
comparison  between  the  occurrence  of  the  act  and  its  punishment. 
This  whole  street  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  couple  of  boys  who 
took  away  their  revolvers.  Besides  the  houses  which  were  fired 
there,  a  beautiful  window  set  in  a  tower  opposite  the  Dominican 
Church  was  destroyed. 

Q.     By  what  was  it  struck? 

A.     By  the  military. 

Q.     By  what  weapon? 

A.     I  would  suppose  by  hand  grenades. 

In  Galway  I  saw  what  was  to  be  seen.  I  was  in  the  railroad 
station  after  returning  from  the  Islands  of  Aran.  The  boat  was 
very  late.  It  was  nearly  twelve  o'clock.  Suddenly  we  heard  a  sharp 
report.  I  was  with  Father  Kelley,  of  Spiddle,  a  place  near  Galway. 
I  said  to  him,  "These  are  shots."  Three  to  five  shots  were  then 
heard.  Then  a  pause  and  six  or  eight  more  shots.  Then  very 
quickly  a  Black-and-Tan  went  out  on  the  platform  that  leads  to 
the  back  door  of  the  railway  hotel,  and  when  the  people  were 
coming  to  get  the  papers  off  the  train  at  midnight,  he  used  his 
revolver  in  any  way,  shooting  in  any  direction.  He  shot  a  young 
fellow  named  Mulvoy.  I  saw  him  the  next  day.  He  was  shot 
directly  through  the  temple. 

Q.     Where  was  this  young  boy? 

A.  On  the  platform  getting  the  papers  with  the  rest.  They  had 
brought  up  the  papers  giving  the  news  of  Mayor  MacSwiney's  con- 
dition. 

Q.     The  train  comes  in  at  midnight  and  they  were  trying  to  buy 


34 

A.     Yes.      . 

Q.     Did  you  see  him  the  next  day? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  you  talk  with  him? 

A.     No,  he  was  dead. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  beg  your  pardon.  I  thought  he  was  only 
wounded. 

The  Witness:  A  civilian  jumped  on  the  back  of  the  Black-and- 
Tan  and  tried  to  get  the  revolver  out  of  his  hand.  He  tried  to  twist 
his  hand  so  as  to  shoot  the  man  on  his  back.  While  he  was  trying 
to  do  that  he  wounded  a  couple  of  bystanders. 

Q.     That  is,  after  the  soldier  had  shot  Mulvoy? 

A.  Yes,  someone  jumped  on  the  back  of  the  Black-and-Tan,  and 
while  he  was  trying  to  twist  the  revolver  from  him,  he  wounded  two 
others. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  Mulvoy  was  an  innocent  bystander.  He 
was  not  connected  with  politics?  He  had  not  been  too  patriotic  in 
any  way? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  So  far  as  I  know,  no.  There  virtue  is  re- 
garded as  a  vice.  I  would  say,  Senator,  in  reply  to  your  question, 
that  all  young  men  are  patriotic. 

Q.  So  that  no  matter  in  what  direction  they  shoot,  they  are  apt 
to  shoot  a  patriot? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  After  he  had  wounded  a  couple  of  men,  a  civilian 
shot  him.  An  English  officer  on  the  platform  said  it  was  the  only 
thing  to  do  with  the  scoundrel.  In  every  civilized  land  under  the 
sun,  an  action  like  that  would  be  considered  the  right  thing  to  do. 
But  it  begot  reprisals.  These  reprisals  had  no  connection  with  the 
deed  and  were  entirely  out  of  proportion  to  it,  even  as  punishment, 
and  utterly  unmerited,  because  it  was  a  virtuous  act  to  kill  the 
murderer. 

Q.     Now,  what  were  the  reprisals? 

A.  The  reprisals  were  about  two  hours  afterward — about  two 
o'clock — 

Q.     I  understand  that  you  were  present  and  saw  this  shooting? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Two  hours  afterwards.  Lights  were  put  out  at 
once,  because  they  thought  they  would  come,  and  so  half-way  pre- 
pared for  their  coming.  With  the  lights  out  in  my  room,  I  peeped 
out  under  the  blinds  and  saw  what  appeared  to  be  about  two  hun- 
dred fifty  soldiers  or  police  halted  at  the  front  door  of  the  hotel. 
Immediately  after  the  order  "Halt!"  came  the  word  "Fire!"  So 
they   shot   there   for    several    hours   through   the   street,    terrifying 


85 

everyone.  I  left  my  bed  and  lay  under  the  window — it  was  a  stone 
building — to  escape  a  possible  bullet. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  in  that  position? 

A.     About  an  hour  and  a  half. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  thought  that  was  the  safest  place  from  a  stray 
bullet  through  the  window? 

A.  That  is  the  place  that  is  generally  advised  in  Ireland — under 
the  window. 

Next  day  I  learned  that  after  shooting  up  the  street,  they  went  to 
a  Mr.  Broderick's  house,  locked  an  old  woman  of  sixty-five  or 
seventy  years  of  age — no,  not  locked,  but  shut  her  into  a  little  room 
in  her  own  house,  poured  petrol  into  the  parlor  and  everything 
near,  and  set  fire  to  her  house.     I  went  to  see  the  ruin  the  next  day. 

Q.     What  happened  to  that  fire?     Did  they  burn  the  house  down? 

A.  They  did  not  burn  the  house  down,  because  some  neighbors 
dared  to  come  out  of  their  houses  and  extinguish  the  flames.  But 
the  piano  was  burned,  and  a  trunk  that  belonged  to  a  woman  who 
had  just  come  from  America,  who  has  been  fifty  years  here,  and  it 
burned  her  trunk.  From  Broderick's  they  went  to  a  house  where  a 
man  named  Quirk  was  lodging.  They  took  him  out  of  bed,  did  not 
give  him  any  time  to  dress,  tied  him  to  a  lamp  post,  and  shot  him 
nine  times  below  the  belt,  literally  disemboweling  him.  An  inquest 
was  forbidden  to  be  held.  I  have  forgotten  to  say  that  they  de- 
stroyed the  Galway  Express  office,  smashed  all  the  type,  and  de- 
stroyed the  linotype. 

Q.     That  was  a  newspaper  office? 

A.     Yes,  a  newspaper  office. 

Q.     Did  that  newspaper  have  Republican  sympathies? 

A.     Republican  sympathies?     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  all  happened  in  one  night  after  that  railroad  station 
affair  in  the  town  of  Galway? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  the  next  morning  to  the  Galway  Express 
office.  The  owner  of  the  paper  was  picking  up  pieces  of  broken 
type  off  the  floor.  They  gathered  together  enough  to  print  a  paper 
on  a  sheet  about  the  size  of  that  (indicating  a  sheet  of  business 
letter  size),  and  in  big  block  letters  on  the  top  of  the  sheet  was 
"Keep  Cool,"  which  is  really  the  philosophy  of  the  passiveness  that 
Ireland  is  practicing  right  now.  Mr.  O'Day,  a  solicitor  of  Galway. 
for  the  sake  of  the  good  name  of  the  community,  inaugurated  an 
informal  inquiry  into  the  happenings,  and  his  house  was  bombed — 
or,  rather,  his  office  was  bombed— the  following  night.  And  so  it 
goes,  and  the  story  is  kept  from  the  rest  of  the  world. 


86 

UNANIMITY  OF  IRISH  SYMPATHIES 

Q.     Do  you  know  the  political  sympathies  of  this  last  party? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  were  they? 

A.  Like  the  sympathies  of  everyone  I  met  in  Ireland,  Protestant 
and  Catholic — Republican. 

Q.     Republican? 

A.     Republican.     It  is  the  only  government. 

Q.     The  only  civil  government? 

A.     Yes,  civil  government. 

Q.  That  is,  you  found  no  vestige  of  British  civil  authority  in 
Ireland  at  all? 

A.  Absolutely  none,  except  this  meaningless  madness  that  is  the 
work  of  government. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  say  you  met  no  one  in  Ireland  that  is 
not  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  form  of  government? 

A.     None  at  all. 

Q.     That  is  literally  true? 

A.     Literally  true. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  you  never  met  anyone  at  all  who  is  not 
sympathetic  with  the  Republican  form  of  government? 

A.     No,  absolutely  none  at  all. 

Q.     You  mean  to  say  that  you  could  not  find  them? 

A.     Yes,  I  could  not  find  them. 

A  SOLOMON'S  JUDGMENT  IN  REPUBLICAN  COURT 

I  asked  them  about  their  courts.  They  said  that  one  court  gave  a 
regular  Solomon's  judgment.  Two  sons  were  disputing  about  a 
legacy.  The  judgment  of  the  court  was  that  the  eldest  should  divide 
the  property  and  the  younger  take  his  choice.  It  was  very  simple, 
but  it  was  right. 

LYNCH  MURDERED  IN  BED  BY  POLICE 

I  was  in  Dublin  when  Mr.  Jack  Lynch  was  killed  in  the  Exchange 
Hotel. 

Q.     Do  you  know  the  circumstances  of  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  not  there  to  see  it,  but  I  know  from  every 
mouth. 

Q.     You  investigated  it? 

A.  Yes.  Six  to  eight  police — I  do  not  know  the  exact  number, 
but  it  is   immaterial — or   rather  six  soldiers   came  to  the   door   of 


87 

the  hotel  at  two  o'clock  in  the  morning,  asked  to  see  the  register, 
looked  for  a  name,  and  went  to  room  number  six.  They  left. 
Nobody  heard  any  sound.  And  some  half  hour  or  so  afterwards 
two  policemen  came  and  knocked  at  the  hotel  and  said  to  the  night 
clerk:  '"We  are  going  to  guard  room  number  six,  where  a  man  lies 
dying.  The  military  told  us  to  come  there."  All  the  next  day  they 
stood  guard  at  that  room,  and  did  not  even  admit  the  proprietor 
of  the  hotel  into  that  room.  They  supposed  the  man  was  dying. 
He  was  shot  in  the  throat.  Nobody  heard  the  shot,  because  they 
blanketed  the  revolver.  The  military  held  the  inquest.  The  coroner 
wras  first  notified  not  to  perform  the  functions  of  his  office. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know  what  was  the  pretended  reason 
for  attacking  Lynch? 

A.     He  was  an  officer  in  the  movement. 

Q.     He  was  an  officer  of  the  Irish  Republican  movement? 

A.     \es,  he  was  an  officer. 

Q.      Had  he  committed  any  outlaw   act  that  you  know? 

THE  PURPOSE  OF  THE  IRISH   VOLUNTEERS 

A.  None  whatever.  The  purpose  of  the  Volunteer  is  to  incul- 
cate three  virtues  in  a  very  practical  way:  the  first,  truth;  the 
second,  sobriety;  and  the  third,  patriotism.  There  is  no  officer  in 
the  Volunteer  army  that  touches  drink. 

Q.  And  I  suppose  that  they  appreciate  that  the  whole  success  of 
their  movement,  if  it  can  be  called  successful,  is  to  proceed  orderly 
and  without  the  commission  of  murder? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  there  is  the  highest  form  of  passive  resistance 
that  has  been  ever  attempted  in  the  world? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

To  that  same  barracks  from  which  the  police  came  to  take 
charge  of  that  room  where  the  man  was  dying,  as  it  was  supposed, 
I  wrent  to  report  to  the  police,  as  I  was  ordered  to  do  on  leaving 
the  ship  at  Liverpool.  The  man  who  was  at  the  desk  had  evidently 
been  imbibing.  The  lines  of  the  face  indicated  it.  He  said  to  me, 
"I  will  give  you  ten  days  to  get  to  Darlington.  If  you  do  not  get 
there  in  ten  days,  report  to  the  police,  for  they  will  be  looking  for 
you."     I  was  going  there  to  see  a  relative. 

Q.     He  knew  you  were  going  there? 

A.     Yes,  I  told  him  I  was  going  to  that  place. 


CRUELTY  DRIVES   WOMAN  INSANE 

In  Tuam  there  was  a  magnificent  draper's  place,  the  finest  shop 
in  Tuam,  a  splendid  cut-stone  building  valued  at  forty  thousand 
pounds;  the  contents,  with  the  building  itself,  was  destroyed  by  the 
police.     The  wife  of  the  proprietor — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  it? 

A.     This  is  what  I  did  not  see,  but  got  from  others  who  did  see  it. 

Q.     How  soon  after  the  occurrence  happened? 

A.     About  two  or  three  weeks. 

Q.     This  establishment  was  destroyed? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Who  was  the  owner  of  it? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  the  name — something  like  Carey.  It  was 
the  principal  building  in  town. 

Q.     Did  you  see  it? 

A.     Yes,  I  saw  it. 

Q.  And  when  you  arrived  there  a  few  weeks  later  you  investi- 
gated? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  heard  about  it,  and  then  when  I  got  there,  went 
and  saw  it  and  investigated. 

At  Tuam  the  wife  of  the  proprietor  escaped  from  the  burning 
building  with  her  child  in  her  arms,  when  she  was  covered  by  a 
loaded  gun  in  the  hands  of  a  policeman  and  told  to  get  back  there. 
She  escaped  over  a  high  wall  in  the  rear  to  a  neighboring  premises. 
As  a  result  of  her  awful  experience,  she  is  insane. 

Q.     Where  is  she  stationed — in  what  institution? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     You  did  not  see  her?     This  is  what  the  neighbors  told  you? 

A.  This  is  what  the  neighbors  told.  But  I  generally  ask  people 
who  are  intelligent  to  get  the  straight  of  it. 

Q.     Did  you  learn  what  had  been  done  to  incur  such  a  thing? 

A.  Absolutely  nothing.  There  were  two  policemen  shot  a  day 
or  two  before. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Up  to  the  date  of  the  burning  of  this 
man's  home,  nothing  had  happened  to  call  forth  a  reprisal  that 
was  known  to  the  general  public? 

A.     Nothing  at  all. 

Q.  Was  this  man  obviously  connected  with  the  Republican 
government  or  movement  in  Ireland? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Will   your   testimony   take   much   longer? 

A.     Very  short,  sir. 


89 

In  that  same  town  a  Mr.  Casey,  who  identified  himself  very 
prominently  in  the  Republican  movement,  told  me  that  in  a  raid 
on  his  house  his  wife  was  made  to  walk  barefoot  over  the  back 
yard  that  was  full  of  glass.  They  extracted  fourteen  pieces  of 
glass  from  her  feet.  She  was  confined  the  week  afterwards  and 
bore  her  first  son. 

Mrs.  Annan  Bryce,  the  lady  whose  name  I  have  already  given, 
held  a  country  dance  in  her  garage,  and  the  next  night  her  garage 
was  burned  down. 

Q.     Is  this  the  sister-in-law  of  Ambassador  James  Bryce? 

A.     A  sister-in-law. 

Q.     Did  she  tell  you  this  herself? 

A.  Yes,  she  told  me  this  herself,  and  wrote  a  letter  giving  the 
details  to  the  papers  of  Glengariff. 

Q.     Have  you  a  copy  of  that  letter? 

A.  I  am  not  sure.  But  I  can  send  it  to  you,  whether  I  have 
it  or  not.     I  saw  it  upon  arriving  in  Glengariff. 

Arthur  Griffith,  the  vice-president  of  the  Republic,  told  me  that 
England  was  planning  a  massacre.  Before  I  left  Ireland  I  found 
that  his  words  were  true.  I  found  that  G.  K.  Chesterton,  the  lead- 
ing scholar  in  London,  in  his  magazine,  The  New  Witness,  exposes 
the  plot  entered  into  by  the  House  of  Commons  after  their  last 
adjournment  prior  to  the  present  session.  Ireland  has  been  gen- 
erally devastated.  Her  railroads  have  been  stopped  by  Sir  Eric 
Geddes,  the  brother  to  the  Ambassador  here.  The  way  they  stop 
them  is  to  send  soldiers  with  loaded  guns  to  the  train;  and  then 
the  train  does  not  start.  The  engineers  will  not  start  them  when 
they  are  used  for  military  purposes.  The  creameries,  you  have 
heard  about  them  being  destroyed.  It  is  a  plot  to  destroy  the 
economic  life  of  the  people. 

There  is  no  use  going  over  about  the  boy  being  shot  going  to 
bring  his  mother  to  church,  and  about  the  Midletown  boys  who 
were  taken  to  the  Cork  jail  and  were  strapped  back  to  back.  The 
officer  in  charge  took  it  into  his  head  to  see  if  one  bullet  would 
kill  the  two  men,  and  shot  them,  the  bullet  going  through  the 
back  of  one   and  through  the  shoulder  of  the   other.1 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   Did  you  investigate  this  yourself? 

A.     No;    I    heard   of   it    from   responsible   people. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  we  should  rather  have  things  that,  as  a 
newspaper  man.  you  have  investigated  for  personal  reasons  rather 


The   Buckley  case.     See   affidavit  of   Bartholomew   Bucklev  and   index. 


90 

than  general   comment  about  what  had  happened  here  and  there. 

The  Witness:  In  England  I  found  that  the  English  were  as  much 
deceived  about  conditions  as  the  Americans.  I  found  that  the 
government  dare  not  tell  the  people,  noble  and  humane,  dare  not 
tell  them  the  truth  about  Ireland. 

I  would  like  to  ask  the  Commission  to  read  a  little  extract  from 
the  inscription  by  the  author  of  a  work  written  forty  years  ago, 
by  the  sister  of  Admiral  Fitzgerald,  of  the  English  navy. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  am  afraid  we  would  be  getting  into  a  great 
deal  of  matter  that  would  be  interesting  and  historic,  and  yet 
would  not  pertain  to  the  immediate  inquiry  here.  I  think  we  had 
better  confine  ourselves  to  just  what  is  going  on  in  Ireland  today, 
what  acts  of  lawlessness  are  taking  place  and  how  much  destruc- 
tion of  life  and  property  and  loss  of  blood  there  is,  and  how 
much  and  to  what  extent  humane  treatment  has  been  abolished  or 
done  away  with. 

THE  HUNDRED  "COWARDLY  MURDERS  OF 
POLICE" 

The  Witness:  I  will  state  just  one  more  thing.  I  wanted  to 
know  something  about  the  hundred  cowardly  murders  of  police. 
They  have  no  such  word  as  police  is  with  us.  They  use  a  different 
dictionary.  I  wanted  to  know  about  the  cowardly  murders.  I 
had  heard  about  these  cowardly  murders  through  the  speeches  of 
Lloyd  George.  The  cowardly  murder  takes  place  in  this  way: 
The  people  in  certain  parts  of  the  country  become  infuriated. 
They  have  no  weapons  of  their  own.  They  attack  a  police  bar- 
racks-, almost  with  their  bare  knuckles.  That  barracks  is  fortified 
and  well  protected  to  keep  anything  like  violent  hands  off.  In 
that  attack  on  the  barracks  the  policemen  are  killed.  So  too  are 
the  civilians  killed.  And  they  attack  armed  lorries  that  have  their 
guns  at  the  ready,  and  there  they  are  killed.  But  instead  of  being 
a  cowardly  act,  the  civilians  that  attack  these  barracks  and  these 
lorries  have  no  arms  at  all  with  which  to  meet  their  purpose. 

Then,  too,  the  police  are  spies.  When  a  camp  of  military  comes 
to  town,  they  point  out  to  this  military  marked  men,  and  these 
men's  houses  are  raided  or  they  are  shot.  And  they  are  treated  as 
spies.  The  people  conceive  of  a  state  of  war  as  existing,  which 
leads  them  to  regard  the  policemen  as  spies  and  give  them  the 
fate  of  spies. 

That  is  about  all. 


9] 


WITNESS  SUMMONED   SOLELY  BY  COMMISSION 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Doctor,  you  were  summoned  by  this  Com- 
mission and  invited  to  come  here  and  testify? 

A.     I  was  summoned  by  Mr.  MacDonald. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  want  to  have  it  in  the  record  that  you  are  here 
on  the  invitation   of  this  Commission  and  nobody  else. 

Chairman  Howe:  Are  there  any  other  questions? 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  The  inhabitants  of  Ireland  are  not 
allowed  to  have  in   their   possessions   any   firearms? 

A.  They  will  get  two  years  for  having  in  their  possession 
firearms.1 

Q.     How  about  finding  firearms  in  their  homes? 

A.     It  is  the  same. 

The  Witness:  Thank  you,  gentlemen,  for  your  courtesy. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  of  the  Commission   will   adjourn 
until   ten  o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 
Adjourned  5:20  p.  m. 


1  Under   the   recent   proclamation   of   martial    law    in    Ireland,   the    death 
penalty  may  be  inflicted  for  possession  of  arms  or  ammunition. 


FIRST  HEARINGS 

Session  Two 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  La  Fayette,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C,  Friday,  November  19,   1920. 
10:15  a.  m. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  DERHAM,  OF 
BALBRIGGAN 

Chairman  Howe:  The  Commission  will  please  come  to  order. 
The  hearings  will  begin  by  the  testimony  of  Mr.  John  Derham,  of 
Balbriggan,  Ireland.     Mr.  Derham. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Mr.  Derham  has  asked  me  to  act  as  his  counsel 
in   bringing   out   his   testimony. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  is  your  name,  please? 

A.     John  Derham. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside? 

A.     Balbriggan,   County   Dublin,   Province  Leinster. 

Q.     How  far  is  Balbriggan  situated  from  the  city  of  Dublin? 

A.     Twenty  miles  north. 

Q.  What  communication  is  there  between  Balbriggan  and  the 
city  of  Dublin? 

A.  The  Northern  Railroad  and  a  main  road  between  Belfast 
and  Dublin. 

THE  INDUSTRIES   OF   BALBRIGGAN 

Q.  I   wish  you  would  describe  to  the  Commission  the  sort  of 

town  Balbriggan   is,    industrial    or    agricultural? 

A.  Industrial. 

Q.  What  are  the  industries? 

A.  Hosiery,  Balbriggan  hosiery. 

Q.  There  are  two  main  factories  there? 

A.  Two,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  size  of  them? 

A.  The  largest  factory  employs  about  three  hundred  or  two 
hundred  and  fifty  in  the  factory. 

Q.  The  smaller  one? 

A.  The  smaller  one,  one  hundred  twenty. 

Q.  One  was  burned,  I  believe? 

A.  That  was  the  smaller  one. 

92 


93 

Q.     That  had  one  hundred  twenty  employees? 

A.     In  the  factory. 

Q.  Were  there  others  in  the  town  that  worked  for  the  factory, 
and  in  what  way  was  that  done? 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    What  is  his  official  position? 

A.     Town  commissioner. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    When  were  you  elected? 

A.     The  fifteenth  of  January. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    I  believe  you  also  have  a  son? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  the  chairman  of  it. 

Q.     He  is  here? 

A.     No,  he  is  in  jail. 

Q.     He  was  in  jail  at  the  time  you  came? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  in  jail  at  Mountjoy  prison. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     For  what  offence? 

A.  For  riding  a  bicycle  at  night.  Nothing  found  on  him.  No 
charge.  He  had  to  go  on  hunger  strike  for  three  weeks  to  get  the 
charge. 

BALBRIGGAN  A  NATIONALIST  STRONGHOLD 

Q.  Tell  us  a  little  more  about  the  election  on  the  fifteenth. 
What  parties  were  candidates? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Just  describe  that.  The  election  was  of  what 
date? 

A.     The  fifteenth  of  January. 

Q.     How  many  parties  had  candidates? 

A.  Republican,  Nationalists  or  Redmondites,  and  two  Unionists 
and  one  representing  the  Soldiers"  and  Sailors'  Federation. 

Q.     Any  Labor  Party  running? 

A.     Two  Labor. 

Q.     What  was  the  result  of  the  election? 

A.  The  result  of  the  election  was  that  Labor  and  the  Republi- 
cans, who  are  the  same,  five;  two  Unionists,  two  Nationalists,  and 
the  Soldiers  and  Sailors,  none. 

Q.     Your  town  commission  consists  of  how  many  members? 

A.     Nine. 

Q.     Did  you  perfect  your  election  before  your  son  was  arrested? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  he  was  not  arrested  until  June. 

Q.     What  was  your  son's  name? 

A.     James. 

Q.  Was  it  a  full  and  free  election,  participated  in  by  the  men 
and  women  of  Balbrigaan? 


A 


9! 


Yes,  all  the  people  of  the  town. 


Q.     Was  there  any  disturbance? 

A.     Not  the  slightest.     There  was  a  very  full  vote. 

Q.     How  many  votes  were  cast? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     How  many  members  of  the  council  were  elected? 

A.     Nine. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  members  elected  were  sympathizers  with 
the  Republican  movement? 

A.     Five  Republicans. 

Q.     Were  any  other  of  the  men  sympathizers? 

A.     The  other  four  were  not. 

Q.     Which  party  received  the  highest  vote? 

A.     The  Nationalists. 

Q.  Which  party  came  in  as  members  of  the  council  through 
minority  representation?  That  is,  there  was  some  one  party  which 
got  the  highest  vote,  and  the  others — the  minority  representation 
was  given  to  the  others. 

A.  The  highest  vote  was  got  by  the  Nationalists.  The  next  was 
got  by  a  Labor  and  one  of  the  Unionists. 

Q.     And  the  Republicans  last? 

A.  No,  my  son  came  next,  the  Republican.  Then  one,  a  Labor 
man,  and  another  Republican  after  him. 

Q.  As  the  council  was  finally  made  up,  the  sympathizers  with 
the  Republican  movement  were  five  out  of  nine;  but,  as  a  matter  of 
fact,  the  highest  vote  was  given  to  other  than  Republican  candidates? 

A.  Yes,  you  can  explain  that  by  the  Unionist  and  Nationalist 
members.  The  Nationalist  member  was  a  very  old  member  there, 
for  nine  or  ten  years. 

Q.  Then  there  was  not  so  much  of  an  issue  as  to  sympathies 
with  the  Irish  Republic  as  with  local  conditions? 

A.  The  Unionists  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  that,  because  the 
Unionist  candidates  were  members  of  the  large  factory. 

Q.     Was  it  a  victory  for  the  Republicans,  then? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Your  town  was  a  Nationalist  stronghold? 

A.  A  Nationalist  stronghold.  But  it  had  not  been  tested  for 
three  years. 

Q.  You  say  that  factory  that  was  burned  gave  employment  to 
one  hundred  and  twenty,  and  gave  out  work  to  others  to  do  at  home. 
How  many? 


95 

A.     Between  three  and  four  hundred. 

Q.  How  many  did  the  largest  factory  have  that  did  their  work 
at  home? 

A.     Between  five  and  six  hundred. 

Q.     The  backbone  of  the  town  was  the  hosiery  industry? 

A.     Yes,  it  extended  to  Skerries  and  Rush. 

Q.      It  went  to  villages  around  in  the  neighborhood? 

A.  Certainly.  There  were  not  people  enough  in  our  town  to 
do  it. 

Q.     Was  there  any  work  done  in  Dublin? 

A.     Yes,  the  big  factory  had  some  work  done  in  Dublin. 

Q.     Was  there  any  other  industry? 

A.     Yes,  linen. 

Q.     What  was  the  size  of  that? 

A.  Fortv  or  fifty  working  on  linen  ticking,  tablecloths,  sheets, 
and  the  like. 

Q.  Has  Balbriggan  any  other  resources?  Is  it  anything  of  a 
mountain  town? 

A.  No.  There  is  the  sea  on  one  side.  We  are  not  far  from 
Drogheda.  Then  there  is  the  national  fishing  fleet  motor  boats  in 
Balbriggan. 

Q.     You  are  the  proprietor  of  a  licensed  public  house? 

A.     Yes,  for  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  Balbriggan? 

A.     For  about  thirty  years. 

Q.     You  are  a  married  man? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  many  in  the  family? 

A.     Eight. 

Q.     Can  you  give  their  names? 

A.  Yes.  Mary,  James,  Elizabeth,  Michael,  Kathleen,  John, 
Morris,  and  Louis. 

Q.     Did  these  children  all  live  at  home  with  you? 

A.     Yes. 

CROWN  FORCES  IN   BALBRIGGAN 

Q.  What  sort  of  a  barracks,  if  any,  is  there  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  A  large  house,  an  old  house. 

Q.  Was  there  a  police  barracks  in  Balbriggan  prior  to  this  time? 

A.  Always  in  Balbriggan. 

Q.  How  large  a  one  was  it? 


96 

A.     The  house  was  fairly  large. 

Q.  How  many  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  ordi- 
narily were  there? 

A.     Ten  to  thirteen. 

Q.  After  the  war  was  there  any  military  establishment  close  to 
Balbriggan? 

A.  During  the  latter  end  of  the  war  there  was  an  aerodrome 
built  for  flying  at  Gormanstown,  three  miles  further  north,  a  very 
large  one. 

Q.     Subsequently  what  has  that  been  used  for? 

A.  Turned  into  a  training  quarters  for  Black-and-Tans.  There 
is  supposed  to  be  fifteen  to  twenty  hundred  of  them.  We  cannot 
tell.     They  come  by  rail  and  motor  lorries. 

Q.     When  did  they  begin  to  use  the  aerodrome  for  that  purpose? 

A.     I  should  say  about  July  when  they  came  first. 

Q.     The  population  of  Balbriggan  is? 

A.     Twenty-five  hundred. 

RELIGIOUS   HARMONY 

Q.  How  did  you  find  the  population  was  as  to  Catholics  and 
non-Catholics? 

A.  Oh,  the  population  is  Catholic.  We  have,  I  suppose,  sixty 
or  seventy  Protestants. 

Q.     Are  there  two  churches  there? 

A.     There  are,  the  Protestant  and  the  Catholic  Church. 

Q.     Who  is  the  pastor  of  the  Protestant  Church? 

A.     The  Reverend  William  Jamison. 

Q.     How  long  has  he  been  there? 

A.     I  should  say  about  a  year. 

Q.  Has  there  been  harmony  or  not  between  the  Catholics  and 
Protestants  in  Balbriggan?  # 

A.     Harmony. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  differences  there  between  them,  caused 
by  any  differences  in  belief  on  the  part  of  the  inhabitants? 

A.     Not  the  slightest. 

Q.     Do  they  cooperate  and  help  each  other? 

A.  Yes,  they  always  cooperate.  If  there  is  anything  for  the 
Chapel,  they  all  help. 

Q.     How  is  that? 

A.  The  Catholics  are  in  the  best  economic  position  to  do  so,  and 
they  extend  help  cheerfully. 


97 

ORIGIN  OF  THE  NIGHT  OF  TERROR 

Q.     Upon  what  night  was  there  violence  in   Balbriggan? 

A.     The  twentieth  of  September. 

Q.     Was  there  a  Blaek-and-Tan  killed  in   Balbriggan? 

A.     One  killed  and  another  wounded. 

Q.     Were  you  present  at  the  time? 

A.     I  was  not  present  at  the  time  of  the  shooting. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  proceed  and  give  the  details  of  what  oc- 
curred at  your  own  home  and  at  the  Smith  public  house.  There  is 
a  public  house  there  kept  by  a  woman  named  Mrs.  Smith? 

A.     Yes,  Mrs.  Smith  has  a  house  known  as  the  New  Bar. 

Q.  Please  state  to  the  Commission  what  you  learned  the  follow- 
ing morning  about  what  occurred  in  that  place. 

A.  No,  that  night.  On  the  night  of  the  twentieth  of  September 
I  was  in  my  own  bar.  My  son,  John,  came  in  about  half  nine  and 
told  me  there  was  a  row  in  the  New  Bar  with  the  Black-and-Tans, 
and  that  two  of  them  were  shot. 

Q.     Did  you  get  any  other  details  at  that  time? 

A.     Nothing  further  at  that  time. 

Q.     Please  tell  what  you  finally  learned  about  this  occurrence? 

A.     About  how  it  did  take  place? 

Q.     Yes,  how  it  took  place. 

A.  District  Inspector  Burke  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
came  down  to  see  his  brother,  a  sergeant  in  the  R.  I.  C.  in  Bal- 
briggan. 

Q.     Where  did  Burke  live? 

A.     In  the  barracks  at  Balbriggan. 

Q.     That  is,  the  sergeant? 

A.     Yes,  the  sergeant  did.     The  brother  came  from  Dublin. 

Q.     What  had  he  been  before? 

A.     An  inspector. 

Q.     He  had  been  promoted? 

A.  Yes,  on  that  day  or  the  day  previous.  He  came  down  to  cele- 
brate it  with  a  few  friends,  There  were  two  motor  cars  or  taxis 
came  down  from  Dublin. 

Q.     Who  were  in  the  taxis? 

A.  Black-and-Tans.  They  stopped  at  Smith's  and  were  taking 
some  drink  there.  The  bar  maid  refused  to  give  them  more,  and 
they  went  behind  the  bar  to  take  it.  She  then  sent  for  the  R.  I.  C. 
They  came  up,  looked  in  at  the  door,  and  left  when  they  saw  who 
was  inside. 


98 

Q.     Who  was  inside? 

A.     The  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  At  that  time,  according  to  your  information  received  there  the 
next  morning,  was  there  anyone  in  there  except  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     Not  that  I  heard. 

Q.     There  had  been  civilians  in  there,  but  they  had  left? 

A.  They  left  when  this  excitement  began  about  taking  the  drink. 
The  police  look.ed  in  and  left.  It  was  not  a  hundred  yards  from 
there  where  the  shooting  took  place. 

Q.     The  Black-and-Tans  came  out? 

A.     Yes,  through  the  Smith  door  of  the  street. 

Q.     What  became  of  the  taxicabs? 

A.     One  taxicab  immediately  left  for  Dublin. 

Q.     Did  you  hear  of  any  other  details? 

A.     That  was  practically  all. 

Q.     Was  there  ever  any  military  investigation? 

A.     No,  no  other  than  the  military  inquest  made  further  about  it. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  begin  now,  Mr.  Derham,  with  your  own 
experiences,  what  you  heard  and  saw. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  know  who. shot  these  Black-and- 
Tans? 

A.  No,  there  was  just  a  bit  of  a  row  there.  They  had  been 
drinking  and  were  a  bit  excited. 

Q.  Was  there  a  row  between  themselves,  or  with  citizens  of  Bal- 
briggan?     Or  did  citizens  waylay  them  and  shoot  them  outside? 

A.  No,  the  shooting  took  place  from  the  inside  at  some  of  the 
Black-and-Tans  already  gone  out. 

Q.     Who  shot  them? 

A,     Nobody  knows. 

Q.     The  bar  maid  was  inside? 

A.     She  was  inside. 

Q.     Has  not  somebody  made  an  inquiry  of  her? 

A.  She  says  she  knows  nothing  about  it.  She  was  very  excited 
about  these  people  coming  behind  the  bar. 

Q.     Did  any  civilians  get  inside  and  threaten  them  with  revolvers? 

A.     Not  that  is  known. 

Q.     It  could  have  happened  by  a  skirmish  among  themselves? 

A.     It  could. 

Q.  Or  it  could  have  happened  by  some  citizens  of  the  town 
shooting  these  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     It  could. 


99 

Q.  Or  it  could  have  happened  from  inside  as  these  men   were 

joing  out? 

A.  It  could. 

Q.  Who  were  killed? 

A.  These  two  brothers. 

Q.  Was  there  any  inquiry? 

A.  There  was. 

Q.  Who  conducted  it? 

A.  The  military. 

Q.  What  was  the  verdict? 

A.  Shot  by  persons  unknown. 

Q.  Was  there  any  investigation  by  civil  authorities? 

A.  Oh,  no.     That  has  been  done  away  with. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been  done  away  with? 

A.  Four  or  five  months. 

Q.  In  what  condition  were  these  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  They  were  supposed  to  have  had  too  much  liquor. 

Q.  Does  the  bar  maid  claim  they  were  drunk? 

A.  She  claims  they  had  too  much. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  in  there? 

A.  Eight  or  nine  of  them. 

Q.  That  is  the  whole  story  about  that  episode? 

A.  That  is  all  as  far  as  that  is  concerned. 

Q.  The  bar  maid  did  not  know  them? 

A.  No.     She  was  not  long  there  in  the  employ  of  that  place. 

Q.  Do   any   of   those    Black-and-Tans   claim   that    civilians   shot 


th 


fin 


A.  They  do. 

Q.  They  all  claim  that,  1  suppose? 

A.  They  do. 

Q.  Do  they  say  where  these  civilians  came  from? 

A.  There  is  a  back  door. 

Q.  Who  runs  this  place? 

A.  Mrs.  Smith. 

Q.  Has  she  any  sons? 

A.  No,  only  daughters.     The  men  folks  are  dead. 

Q.  Then  there  are  no  men  working  or  living  on  the  premises? 

A.  No.     Only  women. 

Q.  Has  she  any  assistants? 

A.  A  couple  of  bar  maids. 

Q.  After  the  police  officers  looked  into  the  front  door,  did  thev 


100 

A.     Yes,  they  went  away.     There  was  no  disturbance. 

Q.     Does  the  bar  maid  claim   that  these  men  took  liquor  from 
behind  the  counter? 

A.     Yes,  they  did  take  it. 

Q.     What  were  they  drinking? 

A.     Bass,  I  suppose — the  usual  drink  over  there. 

Q.     But  about  the  Black-and-Tans'  claim  that  some  civilians  shot 
at  them  from  behind  the  door? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  the  excuse. 

Q.     You  do  not  care  to  state  from  your  inquiries  as  to  what  ex- 
tent these  Black-and-Tans  were  under  the  influence  of  liquor? 

A.     They  had  too  much  taken.     I  could  not  find  out  just  how 
much. 

Q.     There  was  a  celebration  going  on  there  on   account  of  the 
elevation  of  this  inspector? 

A.     Yes,  certainly. 

Q.     Were  any  of  these  Black-and-Tans  from  Dublin? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  all  from  Dublin  except  the  brother. 

Q.     They  got  the  brother  who  was  a  sergeant? 

A.     They  got  the  brother  of  the  inspector,  who  was  a  sergeant, 
from  the  barracks,  and  went  up  to  the  house  for  refreshments. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  in  there? 

A.     About  an  hour. 

Q.     Had  they  taken  drink  before  they  came  in  there? 

A.     I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  was  the  circumstance  of  the  other 
taxicab? 

A.     Immediately  after  the  shooting  one  of  them  disappeared. 

Q.     Did  any  Black-and-Tans  get  into  the  taxicab? 

A.     I  could  not  find  out  about  that.     It  is  supposed  they  did. 

Q.     What  became  of  the  wounded  men? 

A.     He   that   died   was   taken   out,   and   the   wounded   man    was 
brought  to  the  police  barracks. 

Q.     You  may  proceed  and  recount  the  instances  that  occurred 
after  that. 

A.     My  own? 

Q.     Yes,  your  own. 

A.     I  need  not  tell  about  what  my  son  said. 

Q.     Mr.  Walsh:    No,  you  told   about   that.      Did   anything   else 
take  place  in  your  own  bar? 

A.     No,  I  immediately  ordered  the  porter  to  put  up  the  shutters. 
I  asked  the  men  on  the  premises  to  leave,  that  I  was  going  to  shut 


101 

the  shop.  So  they  drank  up  and  left.  I  had  the  shop  shut  at  quar- 
ter to  ten  or  twenty  minutes  of.  I  then  went  inside  to  the  sitting 
room  with  my  family.  We  remained  there  until  half  after  ten. 
Then  my  son,  Mike,  came  in. 

Q.     How  old  is  Mike? 

A.     Just  twenty.     At  half  past  ten  he  came  in  and  went  to  bed. 

Q.  I  think  it  might  be  well  to  describe  the  location  of  the  rooms 
in  your  house.  How  many  rooms  and  where  is  the  bar  there  located 
with  reference  to  the  living  part  of  the  house? 

A.  The  bar,  of  course,  is  on  the  ground  floor.  The  bar  is  on 
Clanard  Street  on  the  Square. 

Q.     How  large  a  room  is  the  bar  room? 

A.     About  thirty-six  feet  in  length  and  about  fifteen  across. 

Q.     Describe  your  house  there. 

A.  At  the  back  of  the  bar  is  the  two  sitting  rooms,  and  the 
kitchen  at  the  back. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Are  those  for  private  use? 

A.  One  of  them  is  for  the  family,  for  private  use,  and  the  other 
is  for  the  bar. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    That  is  all  that  is  on  the  first  floor? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Now  describe  the  upstairs. 

A.  There  are  seven  rooms  upstairs,  six  bedrooms  and  another 
one. 

Q.     Of  what  material  is  your  house  built? 

A.     Of  stone. 

Q.     Two  stories? 

A.     Yes,  two  stories. 

THE  COMING  OF  THE  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.     You  were  saying  that  Mike  came  in  and  went  to  bed? 

A.  Yes.  And  the  rest  of  the  family  and  my  wife  went  to  bed  at 
eleven.  I  retired  about  quarter  past  eleven.  When  I  got  into  my 
bedroom  I  saw  and  heard  the  motor  lorries,  four  of  them,  come  in 
full  of  Black-and-Tans.  I  remained  then  to  see  what  they  were 
going  to  do. 

Q.     You  could  look  out  on  the  street  from  your  bedroom  window? 

A.  Yes,  the  barracks  is  about  fifty  yards  from  my  place,  and  I 
knew  that  they  were  going  to  stop  there.  After  they  stopped  I  saw 
from  ten  to  twelve  Black-and-Tans  proceed  down  Drogheda  Street. 
I  waited  then  to  see  what  was  going  to  happen  with  these  Black-and- 


102 

Tans  for  some  ten  minutes  or  so.  It  might  have  been  half  past 
eleven.  The  first  I  heard  was  glass  breaking  up  the  street.  I  told 
my  wife,  "There  is  going  to  be  a  raid  on,"  because  I  heard  the 
glass.  Then  I  heard  some  shouting  and  more  glass.  I  went  inside 
and  called  the  daughters  and  told  them  to  go  into  the  back  room, 
not  to  light  any  lights,  and  bring  their  clothes  with  them.  I  then 
went  back  into  the  boys'  room  and  called  my  three  sons  and  told 
them  to  get  up  and  dress  and  use  no  light.  My  wife  did  the  same. 
They  remained  in  the  back  room  in  the  dark,  for  I  thought  there 
would  be  shooting.  You  could  hear  them  screeching  and  roaring, 
and  their  voices  got  worse,  and  I  heard  some  shots. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    The  voices  of  the  people  in  the  village? 

A.     No,  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.     What  were  they  saying? 

TORN  FROM  FAMILY  AT  POINT  OF  GUN 

A.  We  could  not  tell  you  that.  They  were  yelling  down  the 
street.  What,  I  could  not  tell.  I  remained  in  the  room  for  three 
minutes  or  so.  We  heard  the  yells  coming  closer  to  our  place.  They 
started  in  breaking  in  the  shutters  and  windows. 

Q.     What,  your  house? 

A.  Yes.  The  yelling  was  something  fearful.  It  took  them  three 
or  four  minutes  to  break  into  the  front.  Then  they  started  breaking 
up  the  shop  and  the  two  rooms  below  stairs.  Then  the  excitement 
was  so  bad  in  the  room  that  I  got  a  candle. 

Q.     The  excitement  among  your  own  family? 

A.  Yes,  my  wife  and  one  of  the  daughters.  I  heard  them  com- 
ing upstairs  then  and  break  open  the  parlor  door.  Immediately  I 
heard,  "Hands  up  or  I  will  shoot."  So  I  put  my  head  out  through 
the  door  and  said,  "Come  this  way,  for  I  have  nothing." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  were  there  any  fire- 
arms or  weapons  in  your  house? 

A.  Not  a  thing.  Not  a  thing.  He  then  said,  "Come  out  or  I 
will  shoot,"  so  I  looked  out,  and  he  put  the  rifle  up  to  his  shoulder. 
I  ducked  back  and  told  him  to  come  this  way,  for  I  have  nothing. 

Q.     In  what  position  did  he  put  the  rifle? 

A.     Like  this  (indicating  raised  position  ready  to  fire). 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    To  your  body? 

A.  Like  this  (again  indicating  position  ready  to  fire).  I  said, 
"Come  this  way  for  I  have  nothing."  Then  ten  or  twelve  of  them 
advanced  up  to  the  front  room.     I  said,  "Spare  the  children."     And 


103 

he  said,  "This  is  the  man.  Take  him."  And  my  wife  said,  "Where 
he  goes,  I  go,"  and  she  caught  me.  Then  I  was  taken  around  to 
look  at  the  family,  and  I  got  a  blow  in  the  jaw  from  a  man's  fist — 
I  did  not  see  the  man — and  pushed  down  the  passageway.  They 
stopped  there  for  about  a  minute,  perhaps,  until  more  Black-and- 
Tans  came  up  the  stairs.  I  was  then  taken  downstairs.  There  was 
none  of  our  family  fully  dressed.  The  wife  had  no  stockings  on; 
the  children  had  no  hats  or  boots — shoes;  I  had  no  hat  myself  or 
shoes.  I  was  taken  downstairs  and  was  going  through  the  hall  door 
when  the  policeman  turned  to  me  and  said:  "No,  you  are  going  out 
the  way  we  came  in,"  and  he  brought  me  out  through  the  shop. 
When  going  that  way  I  saw  that  the  two  rooms  were  packed  with 
Black-and-Tans  breaking  in  there. 

SHOP  RAIDED  AND  WRECKED 

Q.     About  how  many  would  you  say  there  were  down  there? 

A.  There  were  at  least  seventy  on  the  premises  before  I  got 
through.     Seventy  at  least. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Were  they  drinking  any  of  your 
liquor? 

A.  I  do  not  think  so.  But  they  took  a  bird  I  had  there,  a  finch, 
took  it  out  of  the  cage  and  on. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  was  the  condition  of  your  bar  room 
when  you  got  downstairs? 

A.  Everything  was  completely  smashed.  The  glass  was  about 
a  foot  high  back  of  the  bar. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Did  they  destroy  any  of  your 
liquors? 

A.     They  did. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Did  they  destroy  all  of  your  stock? 

A.     There  was  much  left. 

Q.     Did  they  destroy  the  shop? 

A.     Yes,  counter  and  shades  and  so  forth  were  smashed. 

Q.     Did  they  take  anything? 

A.  They  did  not  take  what  they  could  have.  Some  dozen  or  so 
of  Three  Star  brandy  they  left,  and  some  other  liquors. 

"SIT  DOWN  ON  THE  CURB,  YOU  DOG" 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  you  did  not  have  time  to  investi- 
gate? 

A.     No,  sir.     I  was  taken  to  the  shop  door.     Immediately  I  got 


104 

to  the  shop  door  I  was  caught  by  the  neck  and  pulled  into  the  path. 
I  then  got  the  blow  of  a  rifle  in  the  side  of  the  head.  I  was  taken 
across  the  street  and  struck  four  times  and  asked,  "Where  is  your 
bloody  son?"     A  voice  said,  "Take  him  to  the  Green." 

Q.     What  is  the  Green? 

A.  The  Fair  Green.  I  thought  he  meant  to  take  me  there  for 
shooting  purposes.  That  is  what  I  thought  at  that  time.  Going 
across  the  street  I  was  stopped  then  and  searched  by  a  Black-and- 
Tan.  He  did  not  take  anything  from  me.  He  made  me  put  my 
hands  over  my  head,  high  up,  for  about  a  minute.  He  then  said, 
"Sit  down."  I  was  going  over  to  a  door  step  to  sit  down.  He  said, 
"Come  back  here  and  sit  down  on  the  curb,  you  dog."  I  sat  down 
on  the  curb  stone  and  there  were  seven  rifles  pointed  at  me.  I  re- 
mained there  for  about  five  minutes  more.  A  man  then  asked  me 
my  name,  and  I  told  him.  I  then  shifted  my  position  a  minute,  and 
he  said,  "Sit  down  there,  you  dog." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  All  of  this  time  there  were  seven  rifles 
pointed  at  you? 

A.     Yes,  all  that  time  there  was  seven  rifles  pointed  at  me. 

I  was  being  led  to  the  barracks  when  a  big  man  pointed  a  re- 
volver at  my  ear  and  said,  "I  will  blow  your  bloody  brains  out." 

Q.     Did  he  put  it  to  your  ear? 

A.     Yes,  right  at  the  side  of  my  ear. 

Q.     All  this  time  did  you  make  any  protest? 

A.     No ;  I  never  spoke. 

Q.     Never  spoke? 

A.  Never  spoke.  He  told  me  to  get  in  on  the  path.  I  was  on 
the  road.  And  immediately  I  was  struck  on  the  shoulder  and  tum- 
bled down  with  the  butt  of  a  rifle.  I  got  to  the  barracks  then.  It 
was  about  thirty  yards  away  where  all  this  was  happening.  He 
said,  "Put  this  man  in  the  day  room."  The  man  guarding  the  door 
said,  "He  cannot  go  in  there.  There  is  a  man  dying  in  there."  I 
was  told  to  stop  on  the  porch  of  the  barracks  and  remained  there 
for  about  five  minutes  or  eight  or  something  like  that.  The  man 
then  said,  "Take  this  man  to  the  hotel."  So  I  was  brought  to  the 
hotel.  Lawless — the  second  son  of  Mr.  Lawless — was  there  with  a 
child  three  years  old  with  bronchitis;  and  another  little  child  about 
four. 

UNCLAD  CHILDREN   DRIVEN  FROM  HOME 
Q.     Were  these  Lawless  children  driven  out  of  their  home? 
A.     Yes,  they  were  driven  out  with  their  father.     He  was  in  his 
bare  feet,  and  the  children  were  in  their  night  clothes. 


105 

Q.     What  sort  of  weather  was  it? 

A.  The  weather  was  very  cold.  It  was  frosty,  too.  The  grass 
was  wet.     There  was  no  rain,  though. 

I  got  into  the  hotel.  When  I  got  there,  I  got  the  remainder  of 
my  family  with  me,  with  the  exception  of  Mike.  I  stopped  there 
until  half  past  six  in  the  morning. 

A  NIGHT  OF  YELLING,  BURNING,  AND  SHOOTING 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  During  the  night  what  could  you  see  from 
the  hotel  as  to  what  was  going  on? 

A.  I  could  see  the  glare  of  the  fires.  I  could  see  that  two  houses 
were  gone  altogether. 

Q.     Could  you  see  your  own  house  from  there? 

A.  I  could.  Then  there  was  yelling  and  burning  and  shooting 
all  the  night. 

Q.  At  any  time  during  the  night  did  you  ascertain  that  anyone 
had  been  killed? 

A.  Not  until  half  past  six  in  the  morning.  The  Black-and-Tans 
were  stopping  and  yelling  outside  the  hotel  all  the  time.  There  was 
nearly  a  collapse  in  my  family  whenever  they  stopped. 

LAWLESS  AND   GIBBONS  BAYONETED  TO  DEATH 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  You  might  detail  at  this  time  what  you  saw 
and  heard  about  Mr.  Lawless  and  Mr.  Gibbons. 

A.     About  half  past  six  I  came  out  of  the  hotel. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Was  the  hotel  turned  into  police  banacks? 

A.     I  thought  so  all  night,  but  I  came  out  at  half  past  six. 

Q.     How  did  you  happen  to  come  out  at  half  past  six? 

A.  There  was  no  police  with  me.  I  saw  civilians  walking  around 
outside.  I  got  down  to  the  barracks  and  was  told  that  Lawless  and 
Gibbons  were  shot,  and  were  down  in  the  lane  about  six  yards  off 
the  road.  I  saw  the  black  objects  of  their  bodies,  but  did  not  feel 
able  to  go  down  and  look  at  it  myself. 

Q.     Were  there  people  around  the  bodies? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  around  there  looking  at  them. 

Q.  What  was  your  information  about  where  they  were  killed 
and  how  the  bodies  got  there? 

A.     They  were  killed  around  the  corner  in  Quay  Street. 

Q.     Where  were  the  bodies  lying? 

A.     On  the  roadside,  by  two  pools  of  blood. 


106 

Q.     What  was  your  information  about  how  the  bodies  got  there? 

A.  The  neighbors  carried  them  down  to  the  gate  in  the  lane, 
about  five  or  six  yards  down.  The  neighbors  found  their  bodies  on 
the  roadway  and  removed  them  from  the  sight  of  the  public. 

Q.     Who  was  Mr.  Lawless? 

A.     He  was  the  local  barber. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     James. 

Q.     Who  was  Mr.  Gibbons? 

A.  He  was  a  dairy  proprietor,  living  with  his  mother.  His 
name  was  John. 

Q.     How  old  was  Mr.  Gibbons? 

A.     About  thirty-five. 

Q.     Was  he  a  married  man? 

A.     No,  he  lived  with  his  mother  and  three  sisters. 

Q.     Was  he  a  law-abiding  man? 

A.     Yes,  indeed. 

Q.     How  old  was  Mr.  Lawless? 

A.     About  forty. 

Q.     Had  he  any  family? 

A.     Yes,  seven  children. 

Q.     Had  he  a  wife  living? 

A.     Yes,  she  is  living. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  I  wish  you  would  detail  the  circum- 
stances as  they  were  given  to  you  the  next  morning  about  the  death 
of  these  men. 

A.  Lawless  was  first  taken.  His  was  the  first  house  attacked. 
He  was  brought  into  the  barracks  at  the  time  I  was  brought  down. 

Q.     Did  you  see  him  there? 

A.  I  did  not.  But  his  sons  said  they  heard  their  father's  voice 
inside.  The  local  doctor  was  then  in  the  day  room.  He  was  badly 
bruised  and  beaten  about  the  head. 

Q.     Where  was  Mr.  Lawless's  son? 

A.     He  was  on  the  porch  of  the  barracks,  where  I  was. 

Q.     Did  he  have  anyone  with  him? 

A.     He  had  his  little  sister  about  four  years  old. 

Q.     The  sick  child? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Had  he  been  brought  there  with  his  father? 

A.     No,  he  came  there  after  his  father  was  taken. 

Q.     He  was  in  the  hotel  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  he  brought  the  child  to  the  hotel. 


107 

Q.     You  were  telling  about  the  death  of  Mr.  Lawless. 

A.  About  half  past  one  two  Black-and-Tans  came  into  the  bar- 
racks and  asked  Lawless  to  tell  them  who  shot  Inspector  Burke. 
He  said  he  did  not  know,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  said,  "Tell  the 
truth  or  you  will  be  shot  at  half  two,"  looking  at  their  wrist  watches. 

Q.     He  looked  at  his  wrist  watch? 

A.  Yes,  and  said  right  out,  "You  will  be  shot  at  half  two."  He 
was  then  taken  outside  the  barracks,  and  there  was  some  shots  fired. 
It  was  presumed  to  be  at  Lawless,  but  not  to  hit  him — to  frighten 
him.  And  he  was  brought  in  again.  Gibbons,  John  Gibbons,  was 
brought  into  the  barracks  just  as  Lawless  went  back  to  the  barracks, 
and  after  half  an  hour  or  so  there,  they  came  in,  the  same  two 
Black-and-Tans,  and  asked  Gibbons  to  tell  who  shot  Burke.  He 
said  he  did  not  know.  They  said,  "You  will  have  to  tell  the  truth." 
He  said,  "I  am  telling  the  truth."  They  asked  him  to  tell  what  he 
had  to  do  with  the  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers.  He  said  he  was  secretary 
for  the  local  Volunteers.  The  two  of  them  were  then  brought  out, 
one  after  the  other,  again,  and  were  asked  the  same  questions,  and 
the  same  procedure  went  on.  That  is,  there  were  shots  fired,  and 
they  were  brought  in  again  to  the  barracks.  They  remained  there 
until  about  quarter  to  five  in  the  morning,  when  they  were  taken 
out  and  brought  around  to  Quay  Street,  about  ten  yards  from  the 
barracks,   and  were  bayoneted  to   death. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    They  were  stabbed  to  death  with  bayonets? 

A.     Yes,  with  bayonets. 

Q.     No  shots  were  fired  into  them  at  any  time? 

A.     No,  not  according  to  the  doctor's  report. 

Q.     How  many  times  were  the  bodies  pierced? 

A.  There  were  three  in  Gibbons's  neck  and  several  across  the 
body.  The  other  man  had  bayonet  wounds  nine  inches  long  in  each 
of  his  thighs. 

SON,    BEATEN    UNTIL    UNCONSCIOUS,    LEFT    IN 
BURNING  HOME 

Q.     Did  you  find  all  of  your  family  in  the  hotel,  Mr.  Derham? 

A.  No.  After  passing  where  Lawless  and  Gibbons  was,  I  went 
further.     I  saw  nothing  was  standing  there. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:    Your  own  home? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  walls  were  all  tumbled  down.  Not  the  mak- 
ings of  a  match  was  left. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Burned  all  your  property? 


108 

A.     The  whole  lot. 

Q.     Clothing? 

A.     Yes;  we  were  not  dressed. 

Q.     Everything  you  had  in  the  house  was  burned? 

A.  Yes,  everything  we  had.  I  was  told  then  by  the  people  that 
Mike  was  all  right,  that  he  was  up  in  a  neighbor's  cottage,  Murphy's, 
about  a  mile  out  of  town;  that  he  was  badly  beat  about  the  head. 
I  was  afraid,  because  so  many  were  telling  me  he  was  up  there,  that 
the  police  would  hear  about  it  and  beat  me  up  there,  and  so  I  went 
up  immediately. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    What  was  his  condition? 

A.  He  was  badly  cut  about  the  forehead;  his  lip  was  stitched 
here  (indicating  front  of  lip),  and  his  jaw  was  bruised  badly,  and 
several  bad  wounds  about  his  head.  His  arms  were  so  stiff  he  could 
hardly  shake  hands  with  me. 

Q.     He  was  lying  on  the  bed? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Dressed? 

A.  Partially  dressed — trousers  and  coat  and  stockings.  I  asked 
him  to  tell  me  how  he  got  out  of  the  house.  He  told  me  he  didn't 
know;  he  remembered  calling  for  his  mother  two  or  three  times, 
and  didn't  know  anything  more.  Finally  he  was  found  lying  in  the 
field  and  brought  to  this  house. 

Q.     What  is  your  information  about  what  happened  to  him? 

The  Witness:  After  he  left  the  house  and  went  into  the  next 
garden? 

Senator  Walsh:    No,  before  he  left  the  house? 

The  Witness:    What  he  told  me  himself? 

Senator  Walsh:    Yes. 

The  Witness:  When  we  left  the  room  one  of  the  Black-and-Tans 
said:  "There  is  the  young  lad;  take  him."  And  they  went  to  choke 
his  brother,  John. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :    How  old  is  John? 

A.  Just  fifteen.  And  Mike  said,  "It  is  not  him,  it  is  me  who  is 
wanted."     And  they  immediately  left  John  go  and  went  for  him. 

Q.     How  old  is  Mike? 

A.  Just  twenty.  So  they  immediately  went  for  him  and  were 
beating  him  about  the  face  and  body.  They  had  him  on  the  bed. 
He  asked  them  to  shoot  him  and  end  it,  and  they  said  shooting  was 
too  good  for  him.  He  then  turned  his  face  on  the  bed  to  save  his 
face,  and  he  was  then  struck  on  the  back  of  the  head,  and  they  left 
him  unconscious.     They  left  him  there  on  account  of  the  fire. 


109 

Q.     Where  was  he — in  the   burning  house? 

A.     That  was  where  he  was. 

Q.     Did  he  know  how  he  got  out  of  the  house? 

A.  No,  he  said.  He  got  out  and  called  for  his  mother  three 
times.  He  got  to  the  top  of  the  garden  and  got  "Halt,"  but  instead 
of  halting  he  ran  and  jumped  into  the  neighbor's — Burke's  garden. 
There  is  a  river  at  the  back  of  our  place  that  supplies  the  denim 
mill  with  water — about  knee  deep  or  so.  Mike  made  it  over  there. 
They  went  up  the  river  and  Mike  went  down  the  river. 

Q.     Who  went  up  the  river? 

A.  Burke.  Burke  and  his  two  sisters  went  up  the  river,  and 
Mike  went  down  the  river. 

Q.     Where  was  Mike  after  that? 

A.     He  was  seen  down  on  Quay  Street  and  Mill  Street. 

Q.     What  was  his  apparent  condition? 

A.  They  did  not  know.  He  gave  a  knock  at  a  door  as  he  was 
passing  through  the  town. 

Q.     Apparently  seeking  shelter? 

A.     Knocking  at  the  street  door  at  any  rate. 

Q.     Where  was  he  found? 

A.     Lying  in  a  field  of  oats  by  a  man  named  Costello. 

Q.     Where  was  he  then  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  Murphy's  cottage  with  no  clothes  on  him. 
I  then  came  back  from  there  and  got  a  motor  car  and  sent  him  to 
Drogheda,  both  to  be  attended  to  and  to  be  out  of  the  way;  and  I 
have  not  seen  him  since. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  he  all  right  now?  Have  you  got  word 
from  him  since? 

A.     No,  but  he  is  all  right.     He  cannot  communicate. 

TWENTY-FIVE  HOMES  BURNED 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  condition 
of  your  own  house. 

A.  It  was  burned  to  the  ground,  and  not  a  vestige  left.  Not  a 
vestige  left.  Everything  burned  down.  My  neighbor's  house,  Con- 
nolly's, on  the  opposite  corner,  was  the  same  way.  Nothing  but 
bricks  and  stones.  Clanard  Street,  seventeen  houses  burned  in  that 
street,  nine  in  one  row. 

0-     Were  those  dwelling  houses? 

A.  Dwelling  houses.  Three  of  them  were  two-story  houses — 
shops — and  another  was  a  Mrs.  Cochran's  dairy.     When  the  Black- 


110 

and-Tans  came  in  there  Mrs.  Cochran  ran  out  into  the  yard  and 
left  two  of  her  little  boys  behind.  One  of  them  was  about  twelve 
and  the  other  ten.  They  made  them  get  up  and  dress  themselves 
and  brought  them  through  the  house  upstairs  where  they  were  break- 
ing up  the  furniture.  Whenever  they  would  see  a  religious  picture, 
they  would  make  the  children  look  at  it,  and  put  their  bayonet 
through  it. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  They  would  have  the  children  put  the 
bayonet  through  it? 

A.  Oh,  no;  they  would  do  it;  but  they  would  make  the  children 
look  at  it  to  see  what  they  were  doing. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood1:    That  means  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Yes,  the  Black-and-Tans.  They  brought  them  down  the 
street  toward  our  place  to  see  Derham's  fire. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Did  they  sav  that  to  them? 

A.  Yes,  they  took  the  children  by  the  hand,  and  told  them  they 
were  bringing  them  down  to  see  Derham's  fire. 

Q.     That  is  to  say,  your  house  afire? 

A.  Yes,  to  see  my  house  afire.  They  brought  them  back,  then, 
into  their  own  yard,  and  told  them  to  sit  down  at  a  hay  rick  to  warm 
themselves.    They  threw  a  tin  of  petrol  over  the  rick  and  set  it  afire. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Where  did  they  get  the  petrol? 

A.  When  they  came  into  the  town,  they  went  that  night  at  quar- 
ter past  eleven  to  a  man  named  Martin  Connolly,  asking  him  for 
the  keys  of  his  garage;  got  them;  went  down  and  took  out  thirty 
tins  of  petrol;  locked  up  the  garage;  and  returned  the  keys  to  him, 
and  told  him  his  house  would  be  all  right. 

Q.     How  many  residences  were  there  burned? 

A.     Twenty-five  of  them  altogether. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Just  a  moment.  He  did  not  finish  about 
the  hay  rick. 

A.  They  then  set  fire  to  the  hay  rick,  and  then  set  fire  to  the 
Cochran  house. 

Q.     Was  that  house  completely  destroyed? 

A.     Completely,  except  the  back  of  the  kitchen. 

Q.     Were  there  other  houses  completely  destroyed? 

A.  Totally  destroyed.  Twenty-five  houses  in  the  town  were 
totally  destroyed. 

Q.     They  were  all  dwelling  houses  and  all  occupied? 


1  Mr.  L.  Hollingsworth  Wood  was  present  at  the  First  Hearings  by  invi- 
tation of  the  Commission,  and  was  elected  to  and  accepted  membership  on 
the  Commission  prior  to  the  Second  Hearings. 


Ill 

A.  Yes,  all  occupied.  In  Clanard  Street  there  were  nine  single 
houses  and  all  destroyed — not  a  vestige  left. 

Q.  Were  these  houses  largely  owned  by  people  who  worked  in 
the  mills? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  occupied  by  the  mill  people  and  fishing  people 
and  laborers. 

Q.  Were  there  any  business  places  destroyed  other  than  the  fac- 
tory you  have  mentioned? 

A.  Yes.  Costello  and  myself  and  two  others;  four  publicans 
and  two  groceries;  six  business  houses  altogether. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  FACTORY  BRINGS  DESTITUTION 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  About  the  mill.  Where  was  the  mill  located 
with  reference  to  these  houses? 

The  Witness:    The  factory? 

Senator  Walsh:    Yes,  the  factory. 

A.  The  factory  would  be  about  five  hundred  yards  from  the 
nearest  burned  dwelling. 

Q.     Was  it  detached  from  the  rest  of  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  detached.  There  is  a  railroad  embankment  passing 
through  our  town  about  ten  to  fifteen  feet  high,  and  it  is  on  the  sea 
side  of  the  embankment  that  this  factory  is  situated.  You  cannot 
see  it  from  the  town. 

Q.     That  factory  was  burned  this  night? 

A.     It  was  burned  the  next  morning. 

Q.     Was  it  totally  destroyed? 

A.  Totally  destroyed;  one  hundred  thousand  pounds  loss.  It 
is  owned  in  London.  The  manager  is  an  Englishman.  There  is 
nothing  in  a  political  line  there.  Only  to  leave  destitution  in  the 
place. 

Q.     It  threw  them  out  of  work? 

A.  Yes,  one  hundred  twenty  people  in  the  factory  and  three  hun- 
dred more  working  in  their  homes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  say  these  people  worked  in  their 
homes? 

A.  In  taking  the  stockings  in  their  homes  and  doing  embroidery 
on  them. 

Q.  So  on  your  estimate  it  threw  four  hundred  twenty  people  out 
of  employment? 

A.     Yes,  out  of  employment. 

Q.     That  was  their  sole  means  of  livelihood? 


112 

A.     Yes,  their  sole  means. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  houses  in  Balbriggan  for  these  people 
whose  homes  were  burned? 

A.  No,  there  were  no  other  places  for  them.  I  myself  have  two 
of  my  girls  in  lodgings. 

Q.     Hired  a  lodging  for  them? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Describe  how  your  own  family  is  dis- 
tributed? 

A.  Two  of  them  are  in  lodgings  with  a  friend  in  Balbriggan, 
and  one  of  the  boys  is  with  a  friend  because  he  is  going  to  school 
there.  Mike  is  in  Drogheda,  and  the  rest  of  them  are  in  Rush,  nine 
miles  away. 

Q.     Where  did  you  stop? 

A.  I  stopped  in  Rush  with  my  wife.  We  could  not  get  a  place 
in  the  town  for  them. 

Q.     How  are  these  laborers  maintained? 

A.     There  was  a  public  subscription  for  them  in  the  town. 

Q.     As  a  rule,  none  of  them  had  savings? 

A.     Oh,  there  were  no  savings,  no. 

SIX  DAYS  OF  TERRORISM 

Q.     What  became  of  the  people  of  the  town? 

A.     That  was  a  night  of  terror.     Over  two-thirds  of  the  people 

were  in  the  country  all  that  night. 

Q.     Where  did  they  sleep? 

A.  In  the  fields.  They  slept  anywhere,  some  of  them  in  ditches 
filled  with  barbed  wire  all  night. 

Q.     They  left  things  behind  them? 

A.  Yes,  everything.  Some  of  them  went  out  only  with  their 
night  dresses  and  bare  feet. 

Q.     Men,  women,  and  children? 

A.     Yes,  everybody.    They  had  to. 

Q.     Many  children  in  the  town,  I  suppose? 

A.     Many  of  them. 

Q.     Was  there  any  other  damage  done? 

A.     In  that  Clanard  Street  I  spoke  of,  they  broke  the  windows  of 

fifty  houses  in  that  street,  along  with  burning  seventeen  houses. 

Q.     Did  that  state  of  terror  continue  for  some  time  after  that? 

A.     I  think  it  was  Sunday  before  they  settled  down. 

Q.     And  this  occurred  on  Monday  night? 


113 

A.     On  Monday  night. 

Q.     For  the  balance  of  the  week,  where  did  the  people  go? 

A.  They  spent  the  night  in  the  country.  They  did  not  wait  until 
night  to  go.  When  four  o'clock  or  evening  came,  you  would  see 
them  going  away  to  the  country,  stopping  in  the  farmers'  stables  or 
barns  or  hay  lofts  or  anything  they  could  get,  or  in  the  ditches. 
Two-thirds  of  the  people  left  the  town  during  the  week. 

Q.     Afraid  to  stay  over  night? 

A.  Yes,  because  they  had  it  all  day.  They  had  these  Crossley 
engines  running  through  the  town  full  of  Black-and-Tans  sitting 
with  their  rifles  at  the  ready  all  the  time.  If  they  saw  a  crowd  at 
the  corner,  they  would  bring  up  their  rifles  and  fire  shots. 

Q.     Were  they  firing  shots  all  the  time? 

A.  They  were.  On  the  Wednesday  after  that  they  fired  in 
through  the  grocer's  window  and  took  half  his  collar  away,  just 
like  that  (indicating  coat  lapel).  At  the  same  time  they  threw  a 
Mills  bomb  in  the  butcher  shop  on  the  side  street,  and  a  piece  went 
through  an  apple  in  a  young  lad's  pocket.  The  next  grocery  shop 
they  fired  and  destroyed  the  scales.  And  another  place  they  fired 
into  a  crowd  of  young  ladies. 

Q.     Going  along  the  road,  what  is  the  situation? 

A.  They  go  along  the  road  with  these  big  lorries  of  three  to  five 
tons  at  a  dangerous  speed. 

Q.     Do  they  fire  along  the  road? 

A.  Oh,  constantly,  at  the  animals.  Take  Mr.  McCullough;  the 
old  gentleman  was  there  with  his  sons,  and  they  fired  on  them. 
Another  place  they  cut  the  tails  off  of  four  pullets,  and  one  of  them 
after  died. 

LOOTING  OF  STORES 

Q.     Did  they  do  any  other  damage? 

A.     Yes,  they  raped  and  looted. 

Q.     What  did  they  do? 

A.  In  the  house  next  to  me  there  was  a  public  house,  and  they 
took  the  bottles  away. 

Q.     Did  they  do  any  drinking? 

A.  No,  not  at  this  place.  The  place  opposite  me,  at  Connolly's, 
was  where  they  drank. 

Q.     What  was  the  situation  at  Connolly's? 

A.  Connolly  had  two  large  glass  windows,  and  they  broke  these 
with  the  butts  of  their  rifles.     The  place  was  well  lighted  up  by  the 


114 

fire  from  my  house  opposite,  and  they  drank  to  their  fill  before  the 
place  was  destroyed.  Two  grocery  stores  they  looted  and  raped; 
threw  the  tea  and  sugar  and  soap  and  candles  and  everything  on  the 
floor  about  three  feet  high;  tramped  over  it;  and  pulled  things  out 
in  the  passage  to  destroy  what  they  did  not  set  fire  to. 

Q.     Did  you  see  the  stuff  there  the  next  day? 

A.     I  did. 

Q.     Took  it  out  and  tramped  it  in  the  dirt? 

A.     They  did.     I  saw  it  myself. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  business  houses  destroyed? 

A.  Of  course,  there  were  four  public  houses  completely  de- 
stroyed.    All  the  things  in  them  were  completely  destroyed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Was  there  any  way  to  get  repaia- 
tion  from  the  British  Government? 

A.     They  are  working  for  that.     They  are  trying  to  do  it. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    Is  it  a  civil  process? 

A.  They  are  going  to  the  civil  courts  first,  and  they  do  not  know 
what  they  will  do  afterward. 

Q.     These  business  men  are  trying  to  do  this? 

A.     Yes,  they  are  trying  to  do  that. 

Q.     Does  the  British  Government  acknowledge  that  as  a  claim? 

A.  No,  they  do  not  acknowledge  that.  We  are  trying  to  test 
them  first. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  inquiry  held  in  Balbriggan  by  the  au- 
thorities? 

A.  No,  not  that  I  know  of.  I  never  had  an  invitation  to  any 
inquiry. 

Q.  Did  the  British  Labor  Party  send  a  mission  to  Balbriggan  as 
it  did  to  Thurles? 

A.  No,  but  the  International  Women's  League  did.1  That  came 
from  Manchester. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    Can  you  tell  us  about  that? 

A.  Yes.  I  met  them  when  they  came.  I  was  on  the  same  train. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  leader  handed  me  a  letter  with  my  name  on 
it,  asking  me  where  Mr.  Derham  was. 

Q.     Did  they  seem  to  be  making  a  fair-minded  investigation? 

A.     They  did.     They  seemed  to  be  all  right. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:    Did  they  question  the  people  any? 


1  The  witness  refers  to  the  British  Branch  of  the  Women's  Interna- 
tional League,  which  sent  an  investigating  mission  to  Ireland,  two  mem- 
bers of  which,  Mrs.  Annot  Erskine  Robinson  and  Miss  Ellen  C.  Wilkin- 
son,  testified   before   the    Commission.      See   index   and   list   of   witnesses. 


115 

A.  They  did.  They  questioned  the  people  who  had  gone 
through  the  fine  and  slept  out  in  the  fields. 

Q.     Did  they  question  the  police? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     How  long  a  time  did  they  spend  there? 

A.  From  half  twelve  to  five.  They  went  on  the  same  train 
back  to  Dublin  that  I  was  going  back. 

Q.     Half  twelve  means  half-past  eleven  or  half-past  twelve? 

A.     Half-past  twelve. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Were  there  any  dairies  in  the  neighbor- 
hood destroyed? 

A.  No;  we  do  not  have  any  dairies.  The  only  thing  we  had 
was  factories.     That  was  all  they  could  destroy. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  These  textile  workers,  do  they  be- 
long to  a  union? 

A.     They  do.     They  are  all   union. 

Q.     Do  you  have  any  other  unions  in  the  city? 

A.  The  only  other  union  we  have  is  the  Irish  Transport 
Workers. 

Q.  These  fishermen,  do  they  dispose  of  their  own  catch  or  work 
for  some  fishing  concern? 

A.  They  dispose  of  their  own  catch.  That  is  a  thing  that 
the  Republican  government  is  trying  to  bring  in — cooperation — so 
that  we  can  all  do  our  own  business. 

Q.  These  unions,  as  unions,  are  they  in  any  way  harassed  by 
the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military? 

A.     No,  not  as  unions.     That  would  be  too  large  a  job. 

SUPPRESSION   OF  CIVIL  LIBERTIES 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  the  press  in  Balbriggan  free  to  say 
what  it  pleases? 

A.  There  is  no  local  press.  There  is  the  Freeman,  but  the 
editor  is  to  be  up  before  the  Government  this  week  or  next  week 
for  condemning  the  actions  of  the  Black-and-Tans  in  the  country. 


He  is  under   arrest? 

Yes,  he  is  to  be  called  up  for  trial. 

Where? 

Dublin. 

Before   the   regular   criminal    courts? 

I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

There  is  an  indictment  against  him? 

Yes,    for   condemning   the   Black-and-Tans. 


116 

Q.  Do  they  permit  public  meetings  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  No  public  meetings  are  allowed. 

Q.  No   gatherings   in   the   streets? 

A.  None  in  the  streets. 

Q.  Or  in  the  halls? 

A.  You  can  go  to  the  hall  if  they  know  what  the  meeting  is 

about,  but  you  cannot  hold  any  political  meeting. 

Q.  Where   do   the   Republicans   hold   their   political    meetings? 

A.  Oh,  different  places. 

Q.  But  they  do  hold  them? 

A.  Yes,  they  do  hold  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:   They   are  not  generally   advertised? 

A.  Oh,  no.     Oh,  no. 

EFFECTS   OF  TERRORISM   ON   ECONOMIC  AND 
POLITICAL  LIFE 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  has  been  the  effect  of  this  on  the 
business  of  Balbriggan,  especially  from  the  country  districts? 

A.  The  country  districts  are  bad.  It  is  hard  on  them.  You 
do  not  have  any  country  people  in  the  afternoon.  They  will  come 
in  only  when  they  have  to.  They  cannot  travel  on  the  roads  to 
Dublin  or  Drogheda,  for  they  are  afraid  of  the  shooting. 

Q.     Where  do  the  people  get  their  food  from? 

A.     It  has  to  come  in  on  the  trains  or  from  around  the  town. 

Q.     The  people  do  not  come  into  the  town  like  they  did? 

A.  No.  We  are  in  a  sense  isolated.  It  is  not  safe  to  be  com- 
ing in.     You  do  not  know  what  you  are  going  to  meet. 

Q.     Does  the  local  town  council  meet  regularly  in  Balbriggan? 

A.  It  did  not  for  awhile.  It  took  five  to  form  a  quorum.  When 
my  son  was  away,  we  could  not  get  a  quorum,  because  the  Union- 
ists did  not  attend. 

Q.     You  had  no  local  government,  then? 

A.  Not  until  he  came  out.  Since  then  we  have  had  two  or 
three  meetings.  He  would  go  to  Balbriggan  to  attend  them  and 
then  leave. 

Q.     So  your  local  government  is  not  functioning  now? 

A.  Oh,  well,  its  duties  are  not  much.  You  see  the  state  of 
terrorism  there,  and  people  are  so  frightened.  My  son  was  not 
out  until  the  fifteenth  of  October.  That  was  more  than  a  month 
afterwards.  He  went  down  to  Balbriggan  on  Saturday,  to  attend 
a  council  meeting.  On  Saturday  evening,  when  he  was  seen  about, 
they  got  a  report  that  there  would  be  a  raid  on  to  get  Derham  by 


117 

night.  Half  the  town  slept  in  the  fields  that  night  in  fear  of  what 
might  happen. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  your  son  on  the  run? 

A.  The  two  of  them  are  on  the  run.  He  goes  in  the  daytime. 
They  are  not  afraid  in  the  daytime.  It  is  the  night  time  they  are 
afraid  of.  It  is  terrorism.  You  do  not  want  to  be  with  friends, 
for  you  are  liable  to  get  the  whole  place  broken  up  for  them. 
And  if  you  stay  in  your  own  home,  it  is  sure  to  be  broken  up. 

FIVE  DIE  FROM  FRIGHT  AND  EXPOSURE 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Have  there  been  any  deaths  since? 

A.  Five  of  them,  soon  after  that:  three  elderly  persons  and 
two  children.     The  fright  and  exposure  was  largely  to  blame  for  it. 

And  it  isn't  over  yet.  There  were  handbills  saying,  "Send  in- 
formation to  D.  W.  Ross,  London."  That  is  the  way  they  get  all 
their  information.  They  came  around  three  weeks  after  the  burn- 
ing and  pasted  one  on  every  door  in  town,  and  at  some  doors  they 
knocked.  There  was  an  old  woman  sixty-five  or  sixty-eight  years 
of  age,  and  she  died  from  the  fright. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:   What  were  these  bills? 

A.  Handbills  telling  us  to  send  any  information  we  knew  about 
Sinn  Fein  to  D.  W.  Ross,  London,  and  you  would  get  the  money 
afterwards. 

Q.     Who  is  D.  W.  Ross?      Does  anybody  know? 

A.  That  is  unknown.  It  is  somebody  in  London.  You  send  in 
the  information,  and  you  would  get  a  reward  afterwards. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  these  raids,  did  they  just  take 
particular  parties,  or  did  they  take  the  whole  street,  or  select  those 
who  are  Republicans  and  Sinn  Fein? 

A.  They  did  not  take  everybody.  They  picked  them  out  like 
they  did  me. 

Q.     Any  big  business  property  molested  besides  the  big  mill? 

A.     No,  that  was  all,  the  big  mill. 

RESTRICTIONS  ON  FUNERALS 

Now,  you  might  want  to  know  about  burials.  When  the  funerals 
of  Lawless  and  Gibbons  were  about  to  be  held,  we  were  going  to 
have  the  tricolor  on  the  coffins. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  is  the  tricolor? 

A.  The  colors  of  the  Irish  Republic.  When  the  funerals  were 
to  be  held,  we  wanted  to  have  the  Volunteers  there  and  march. 
But    about    twelve    o'clock    that    day,    or    eleven,    the    word    came 


118 

through  some  of  the  clergy  that  if  this  thing  was  to  go  on,  if  there 
was  any  tricolor  out  or  any  military  formation,  the  Black-and- 
Tans  would  come  on  that  night  and  wipe  the  town  out.  There 
was  a  long  discussion.  Some  of  them  wanted  to  do  it  anyway. 
But  it  was  finally  decided  that  for  the  sake  of  the  town  we  would 
have  to  cut  it  out. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Is  there  any  limitation  of  the  number 
of  persons  who  are  allowed  to  attend  people's   funerals? 

A.  At  the  present  time  there  is  a  limitation,  as  in  the  case  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  Terrence  MacSwiney.  It  was  limited 
to  a  quarter  of  a  mile  long.  There  would  have  been  four  or  five 
miles  of  it.     And  then  you  are  accompanied  by  these  motor  lorries. 

MURDER  OF  SHERLOCK  AT  SKERRIES 

Q.  I  believe  you  had  some  information  about  the  murder  of 
a  man  at  Sherries? 

A.     At  Skerries. 

Q.     What  is  the  situation  of  this  town? 

A.     Four  miles  from  us. 

Q.     What  are  the  circumstances  of  the  death  of  Mr.  Sherlock? 

A.  Penstraw  is  that  man's  name.  He  was  supposed  to  be 
around  with  the  Black-and-Tans  at  the  night  of  the  sacking  of 
Balbriggan,  showing  them  where  the  Sinns  were.  So  he  left  the 
town  the  day  after,  and  he  was  in  Skerries.  The  report  was  that 
the  Skerries  Volunteers  put  him  out  of  Skerries.  That  was  the 
report.  That  was  about  three  or  four  days  afterwards.  About  a 
month  after  that,  there  was  a  body  got  about  eight  miles  away  in 
a  ditch.  It  turned  out  to  be  Penstraw.  He  was  not  buried  right. 
There  was  heavy  rains  on.  There  was  some  young  lads  in  the 
ditch  getting  blackberries,  and  they  found  the  body. 

Q.     Was  there  a  man  named  Sherlock  in  that  place? 

A.  Well,  then,  he  was  identified.  The  police  were  very  active, 
and  he  was  identified  as  Penstraw. 

Q.     Was  there  a  man  named  Sherlock  killed  there? 

A.  Yes.  Well,  that  night  they  went  up  to  Skerries  in  motor 
lorries. 

Q.     How  many? 

A.  I  do  not  know  how  many  lorries  went  up,  but  there  was  a 
hundred  or  so  Black-and-Tans.  They  stopped  out  on  the  Balbriggan 
side  of  the  town  and  walked  so  that  they  would  make  no  noise. 
They  went  to   a  namesake  of  mine,   Derham,   and  knocked   on  his 


119 

door,  and  he  let  them  in,  and  stood  in  another  door  as  they  passed 
by  and  went  upstairs  in  the  house.  And  then  they  went  out  again. 
Derham  immediately  went  out,  when  they  broke  in  the  door  to  look 
for  him.  So  he  escaped.  They  then  went  to  a  young  man  named 
Terrol  and  kept  him  on  his  knees  for  two  hours,  and  then  went  for 
Sherlock.  The  father  answered  the  door.  They  asked  for  his  son 
John — John  Sherlock.  The  father  said,  "He  is  not  in.-"  He  said, 
"it  is  all  right,  father.  They  will  not  do  me  any  harm."  They 
brought  him  away  about  three  hundred  yards  in  a  field,  and  when 
his  father  and  sister  found  him  that  morning,  about  seven  o'clock, 
there  were  three  bullet  wounds  in  his  breast  and  four  in  his  head. 
But  Terrol  was  all  right.  They  did  not  shoot  him.  The  next  night 
they  came  again  and  set  fire  to  Derham's  house  and  burned  it 
all  up. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  This  first  man,  he  was  an  informer? 

A.  \es.  he  was  said  to  be  an  informer,  going  around  with  the 
Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  Was  there  any  reason  for  the  Black-and-Tans  believing  that 
these  men  were  implicated  in  this  crime? 

A.  The  only  reason  was  that  the  body  was  found  about  eight 
miles  away  from  Skerries. 


Q.     There  was  no  oth 


was  no  otner  reason 


A.     No. 

Q.      It  was  only  an  excuse? 

A.  Yes,  all  they  wanted  was  an  excuse.  That  was  all  they 
wanted. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:  But  was  this  body  identified  as  that  of  the  man? 

A.     Yes,  I  believe  an  uncle  and  an  aunt  identified  it. 

Q.     But  the  body  had  been  dead  a  long  time? 

A.  Yes,  it  was.  He  was  missing  for  about  a  month.  I  don't 
know  how  long  the  body  was  there.  But  they  could  identify  it  by 
some  of  the  things  or.  the  body. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  further  statement  you  want 
to  make? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  that  covers  it,  Mr.  Derham. 

Q.     Mr.  Wood:  The  Smith  public  house  was  also  destroyed? 

A.     Oh,  no;  nothing  done  there.     Not  a  pane  of  glass  broken. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  that  Smith  place  a  place  to  which  the 
Black-and-Tans  resorted  a  great  deal? 

A.     They  did. 

Q.     None  of  them  ever  came  to  your  place? 

A.  They  did  not.  None  of  them  came  there.  Perhaps  two  or 
three  times  altogether. 


120 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  do  you  explain  that?  They  left 
the  Smith  house  and  destroyed  the  others. 

A.  That  is  the  mystery.  If  that  had  happened  in  my  house,  1 
would  not  be  here.  There  was  not  a  pane  of  glass  broken  in  the 
Smith  house. 

Chairman  Howe:  That  is  all.    Thank  you  very  much. 

The  witness  was  thereupon  excused. 

*  *  *  *  *  »  *  « 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  AGNES  B.  KING 

Chairman  Howe:  Is  Mrs.  King  here? 

(The  witness  takes  the  stand.) 

Mrs.  King,  of  Ironton. 

Q.     Please  state,  Mrs.  King,  your  full  name  and  residence. 

A.     Agnes  B.  King,  of  Ironton,  Ohio. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  lived  in  Ironton? 

A.     Six  years. 

Q.     And  in  the  United  States? 

A.     All  my  life. 

Q.     You  were  born  here? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  you  married? 

A.     I  am  a  widow  with  three  children. 

Q.     Are  you  a  professional  woman? 

A.  I  cannot  be  said  to  be  that,  no.  I  have  taught  school  formerly 
in  the  Cleveland  public  schools.     That  is  all. 

Q.     You  have  been  recently  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  for  about  eight  weeks,  and  one  week  in  London. 

Q.     When  did  you  enter  Ireland? 

A.     I  entered  Ireland  on  the  twenty-second  of  July. 

Q.     When  did  you  leave? 

A.     The  twenty-third  of  September,  1920. 

Q.     What  led  you  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  went  over  at  first  for  my  health.  I  did  not  intend  to  visit 
Ireland  except  for  two  or  three  weeks.  My  real  intention  was  to 
take  my  grown-up  niece,  who  was  a  French  student,  to  France.  But 
I  changed  my  mind  after  being  in  Ireland  two  or  three  weeks,  be- 
cause the  situation  was  so  engrossing.  And  so,  although  I  had  a 
passport  to  France,  I  did  not  go. 

Q.     Why  did  you  go  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  went  to  Ireland  because  my  mother  and  father  were  born 
in  Ireland.  My  father  was  all  through  his  life  a  very  strict  Protes- 
tant, and  would  not  on  any  account  enter  a  Catholic  church.     He 


121 

was  opposed  to  the  Catholic  faith  save  as  he  saw  it  exemplified  in 
my  mother's  life,  and  this  he  admired. 

Q.     Your  mother  was  a  Catholic? 

A.     Yes,  she  was  a  Catholic. 

Q.     Were  they  born  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  both  born  in  Cork  city.  He  was  baptized  in 
the  famous  Shandon  church.  I  got  his  baptismal  record  while  I 
was  over  there. 

Q.     What  was  your  father's  business? 

A.     He  was  a  manufacturer  of  barrels  all  his  life. 

Q.     You  went  back  to  visit  their  old  home? 

A.  Yes.  My  mother  died  last  January,  and  I  became  very  ill 
after  her  death,  and  my  people  suggested  that  a  sea  voyage  would 
do  me  much  good,  and  I  said  that  perhaps  the  sight  of  my  mother's 
and  my  father's  birthplace  would  reawaken  interest  in  me.  And  I 
also  wanted  to  take  this  niece,  who  had  been  raised  by  mother  from 
a  baby.  I  thought  that  if  she  had  a  stay  in  France,  it  would  be 
the  best  thing  for  her.  I  also  took  my  daughter  with  me.  My 
daughter  is  twelve  years  of  age. 

Q.     Where  did  you  land  in  Ireland? 

A.  Kingstown,  I  think.  We  went  straight  across  from  Liver- 
pool.    We  took  a  taxi  up  to  the  hotel  in  Dublin. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  remain  in  Dublin? 

A.     About  a  week,  I  think. 

Q.     What  did  you  do  there? 

Q.  We  went  sight-seeing,  and  I  called  on  my  people  there.  We 
visited  all  the  famous  churches  there,  and  the  cemeteries.  I  think 
that  is  about  all  that  I  did  in  Dublin. 

Q.  You  know  in  a  general  way  the  purposes  of  this  inquiry. 
Now,  go  on  in  your  own  way. 

THE  PREVAILING  TERRORISM 

A.  The  first  time  that  I  was  terrified  in  Ireland  was  at  Temple- 
more.  I  remember  going  with  my  daughter  and  my  niece  to  visit  a 
church  on  Saturday  evening,  and  the  lorries  were  coming  into  town 
at  full  speed.  This  was  my  first  close  view  of  lorries.  They  were 
bent  on  terrorizing  the  people.  They  came  down  the  road  at  a  very 
high  rate  of  speed.  The  drivers  were  completely  white  with  dust. 
It  seemed  to  me  almost  like  flour  dust,  they  were  going  so  fast. 
The  lorries  were  all  filled  with  soldiers.  The  guns  were  all  at  atten- 
tion. I  clung  to  my  daughter  and  my  niece,  and  I  think  we  said  a 
few  prayers,  for  it  had  been  said  in  Templemore  that  day  that  they 


122 

were  bent  on  mischief.  The  driver  wanted  to  have  a  little  fun,  for 
he  swung  the  first  lorry  near  to  the  curb,  and  the  muffler  blew  off  just 
as  they  passed  us.  I  called  out,  "We  are  Americans,"  but  of  course 
it  was  only  my  woman's  fright  and  terror. 

During  that  night  we  drew  the  dresser  up  in  front  of  the  window, 
and  during  that  night  there  were  shots  fired   in  the  Square. 

Q.     Where  is  Templemore? 

A.  It  is  in  the  central  part  of  Tipperary,  not  far  from  Thurles. 
When  I  arrived  in  Templemore  I  heard  of  the  outrages  in  Thurles, 
and  the  air  seemed  rife  with  coming  danger.  So  I  was  anxious  to 
be  out  of  the  place  as  soon  as  possible.  I  might  say  that  in  every 
place  and  in  every  town  where  we  stopped  in  Ireland,  the  dressers 
were  put  up  before  the  windows  to  ward  off  the  shots  if  there  were 
firing  during  the  night.  In  Cork,  really  the  only  place  that  I  was 
interested  in  seeing  in  Ireland,  because  it  was  the  city  of  my  parents' 
nativity,  I  was  thinking  of  anything  but  of  the  military  program  in 
that  city,  and  was  bent  on  thoughts  of  my  recently  deceased  mother 
when  we  entered  the  city.  There  we  were  in  the  midst  of  scenes 
of  great  military  activity,  and  I  was  almost  regretful  that  I  had 
come.  There  was  a  raid  on,  and  there  were  Lewis  guns  and  tanks 
and  many  of  the  military  surrounding  the  place  where  they  were 
raiding.  The  citizenry  of  Cork  was  standing  about  in  a  very  quiet 
way,  and  I  believe  that  I  was  the  most  turbulent  person  there  and 
the  most  agitated.  I  rushed  to  the  hotel  and  said,  "Please  give  me 
a  back  room,  so  that  we  will  be  as  far  as  possible  away  from  this 
shooting."  The  lady  said  to  me,  "You  are  not  brave  like  the  women 
of  Ireland.  You  do  not  have  to  suffer  like  this  in  America."  My 
daughter  and  myself  were  given  a  rear  room  on  the  top  floor  of  the 
hotel,  but  there  was  a  window  in  this  room  that  let  out  on  the  side 
street.  The  porter  placed  the  dresser  and  the  large  wardrobe  before 
that  window  as  a  protection  from  stray  shots  that  might  come  down 
that  side  street.  My  little  daughter  seemed  to  be  less  fearful  than 
myself.  Once  or  twice  after  the  curfew  had  been  on  that  night — 
the  curfew  lowers  at  ten  o'clock  in  Cork;  it  had  been  put  on  about 
a  week  before  we  entered  the  town — my  little  daughter  went  to  the 
window  to  look  out,  and  I  called  her  back.  She  said,  "Mama,  there 
is  no  danger  if  you  peek  out  of  the  corner  of  the  window."  We 
then  peeked  out  and  it  seemed  to  me  that  about  a  dozen  soldiers — 
I  cannot  give  the  exact  number — were  halting  men  in  the  side  street. 
I  think  some  of  those  men  escaped  halting,  because  of  the  inter- 
mittent peeks  that  we  gave.  We  watched  those  men:  in  some  way 
they  ran  into  the  side  street  and  escaped  the  military  that  night. 
I  saw  the  military  all  through  the  night  down  that  side  street  as  if 


123 

watching  for  someone.  Needless  to  say,  there  was  very  little  sleep 
that  night,  and  I  almost  forgot  that  it  was  my  mother's  birthplace. 
I  may  say  that  the  next  day  I  started  to  take  a  picture  from  the 
upper  window  of  the  hotel,  where  many  people  were  watching  the 
soldiers  in  the  square  below,  and  a  man  said  to  me — a  man  with 
a  decided  English  accent — 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  were  the  soldiers  doing? 

A.     Preparing  for  a  raid. 

Q.     Would  you  please  describe  this  raid? 

A.  There  were  many  lorries  and  hundreds  of  soldiers  with  their 
guns  at  attention.  Each  squad  of  soldiers  were  pointing  their  guns 
in  different  directions,  so  that  no  angle  was  left  uncovered  by  guns 
and  bayonets.  The  Lewis  guns  were  ready  for  firing,  and  what 
were  called  tanks — I  would  not  have  known  it,  but  they  told  me  it 
was  a  tank  that  was  waiting  there.  The  officers  were  busy  com- 
manding the  soldiers.  And  then  suddenly  they  rushed  into  this 
house  to  raid  it.     What  they  did  inside  this  house  I  do  not  know. 

Q.     A  private  house  or  a  business  house? 

A.  A  business  house,  a  publishing  business,  and  also  a  store- 
house for  groceries. 

Q.     What  did  they  do  on  that  raid? 

A.     I  was  not  inside.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     You  saw  the  soldiers  go  into  that  house? 

A.     Yes,  dozens  of  soldiers  going  in  with  bayonets  at  attention. 

Q.     Did  they  bring  anything  out? 

A.     They  brought  nothing  out. 

Q.     Was  the  house  destroyed  or  burned? 

A.  No,  not  that  day.  It  was  what  one  would  call,  after  seeing 
others,  a  peaceful  raid.  They  were  searching,  I  believe,  for  a  man 
they  did  not  get,  and  for  documents,  according  to  what  was  said  in 
the  papers. 

I  Went  to  take  the  picture  of  this  immense  gathering  of  military 
because  of  the  fact  that  it  was  my  nearest  approach  to  war  in  my 
lifetime.  And  this  man  said,  "My  God,  girl,  if  they  see  you  they 
will  shoot!"  I  said,  "Why  would  they  shoot?"  He  said,  "They 
would  take  that  camera  to  be  something  that  a  Sinn  Feiner  was 
throwing,  and  they  would  shoot."  He  said,  "I  am  an  Englishman, 
and  I  would  not  take  a  picture  of  this  gathering  myself." 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Did  you  see  any  other  raids? 

A.  I  did.  Shall  I  give  you  some  of  the  other  things  I  saw  at 
Cork? 

Senator  Walsh:  Yes,  chronologically. 


124 

"WAR  ON  WOMEN  AND  CHILDREN" 

The  Witness:  The  nights,  then,  while  I  stayed  in  the  hotel — my 
stays  were  very  brief  in  Cork  because  of  my  extreme  timidity,  but 
I  still  wanted  to  get  in  touch  with  some  of  my  mother's  and  father's 
relatives  because  they  had  long  been  in  America;  so  I  went  back, 
I  think,  four  times  to  Cork — the  people  would  gather  in  the  lower 
parlor,  that  is,  the  parlor  on  the  second  floor  of  the  hotel,  in  order 
to  watch  the  movements  of  the  military  as  soon  as  the  curfew  hour 
approached.  One  could  gather  by  that  whether  the  military  were 
bent  on  any  dread  business  that  night.  At  any  rate,  lights  went 
out  and  at  five  minutes  to  ten  there  was  on  each  night  a  scurrying 
of  bullets  on  the  road  from  Patrick  Street  down  (Patrick  Street  is 
on  the  road  straight  up  from  the  hotel ) — a  scurrying  of  bullets  to 
clear  the  street,  as  near  as  one  could  tell.  In  the  morning  one 
would  read  from  the  papers  that  these  bullets  would  fly  because 
men  would  not  halt,  or  something  of  that  sort.  After  the  first  scurry 
of  bullets  there  would  be  motor  lorries.  Sometimes  they  would 
come  at  a  rapid  pace  through  the  town,  making  a  great  noise. 
Sometimes  they  would  come  in  funeral  style:  first  fifty  soldiers 
advancing,  with  a  slow-moving  lorry  after,  and  then  fifty  more 
soldiers  and  a  slow-moving  lorry,  and  then  at  the  head  of  this 
procession  a  great  searchlight,  which  they  would  throw  onto  the 
top  of  the  buildings.  They  seemed  to  single  out  churches  more 
than  any  other  buildings,  from  what  I  could  see.  One  woman  at 
the  windows — she  was  not  on  the  run,  but  her  husband  was,  and  so 
she  was  stopping  wherever  she  could  get  a  night's  rest,  and  this 
night  she  was  stopping  at  the  hotel — she  was  well-nigh  sick  or 
hysterical  with  fear  because  she  could  not  know  where  her  husband 
was.  And  she  turned  to  an  English  gentleman  who  was  in  the  parlor 
and  said,  "Is  not  this  terrible?  We  can  never  return  to  our  own 
homes."  And  he  said,  "When  I  return  to  England  I  shall  tell  my 
people  that  they  are  waging  war  on  women  and  children  rather 
than  on  men,  for  from  what  I  have  seen,  it  is  doing  more  harm  to 
the  women  and  children  than  to  the  men."  I  turned  to  him  and 
said,  "You  are  an  Englishman?"  "I  am,"  he  said.  "Why  did  you 
come  to  Ireland?"  I  said.  "Just  to  see  the  conditions."  And  that 
is  all  the  conversation  that  occurred  then.  Later  I  said,  "It  is 
frightening  me."     He  said,  "It  is  frightening  everyone." 

Then  we  went  into  the  back  room  and  barricaded  the  door.  On 
each  night  of  our  stay  in  Cork,  there  were  shots  near  or  far  away 
from  our  immediate  room. 


125 

HUNCH-BACK  MURDERED  IN  ACT  OF  PRAYER 

Tien  I  went  to  Bantry,  because  my  daughter  was  named  after 
someone  in  Bantry.  and  I  wished  her  to  see  her  namesake.  I  had 
never  known  or  met  this  woman  before.  On  the  night  I  entered 
Bantry  the  scenes  were  very  terrifying,  and  I  readily  concluded  that 
one  night  was  all  I  could  stand  in  Bantry.  While  in  Bantry  I  talked 
with  the  mother  of  a  little  boy  who  had  been  shot  a  few  nights 
previously.  That  was  about  the  first  week  in  August  that  the  boy 
had  been  shot.  The  mother  was  quite  repressive  on  account  of  the 
disaster  that  had  occurred  in  her  home.  I  cannot  say  her  age,  but 
she  seemed  to  me  a  woman  well  up  in  the  sixties.  She  said  that 
she  had  one  Volunteer  son  who  was  on  the  run,  and  a  little  hunch- 
back boy  who  was  at  home  with  her  and  his  father  on  the  night 
that  the  raid  occurred.  There  were  no  lights  at  night  on  the  streets 
of  Bantry,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  or  the  R.  I.  C. — they  are  dis- 
guised so  that  one  could  not  tell  to  which  body  they  belonged — 
they  knocked  on  the  door.  She  answered  the  knock  with  a  candle 
in  her  hand.  The  soldiers  knocked  the  candle  from  her,  using  an 
electric  light  to  light  them  up  the  stairs.  The  Volunteer  boy  was 
not  at  home.  The  little  hunch-back  boy  ran  from  his  own  room 
into  his  brother's  room.  The  mother  rushed  up  the  stairs  after 
them,  and  was  in  sight  of  the  tragedy  when  it  occurred.  "My  boy's 
hands  were  raised  in  prayer,"  she  said.  "He  was  only  a  little 
hunch-back  and  had  never  done  any  harm  to  anybody.  He  had 
never  done  any  greater  harm  than  trapping  a  rabbit  now  and  then 
to  make  a  few  pennies  to  make  him  feel  that  he  was  in  the  world 
of  the  living.  They  shot  through  his  uplifted  hands;  and  his  mother 
said  that  as  they  shot  he  was  saying,  "My  Jesus,  have  mercy  on  me." 
He  fell  back  as  a  shot  pierced  his  hands,  and  the  men  stepped  close 
to  the  bedside  and  pierced  the  chest  with  three  bullets.  They  then 
left  the  house,  and  they  completed  then  the  raiding  in  that  town. 
Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  old  was  that  hunch-back  boy?- 
A.  I  did  not  ask  his  age,  but  I  should  say  about  fifteen  or 
twenty. 

Q.  This  was  all  related  to  you  by  the  mother?  You  did  not  see 
any  of  it  yourself? 

REPRISAL  AGAINST  A  PROTESTANT 

A.  I  did  not  see  any  of  it  myself.  I  saw  the  ravages  in  the 
town;  and,  strange  to  say,  one  of  the  worst  ravages  in  that  town 
occurred  on  the  home  of  a  Unionist  and  a  man  of  the  Protestant 
faith.     Most  of  the  people  in  the  town  are  of  the  Catholic  faith., 


126 

This  man  had  written  a  letter  about  the  little  hunch-back's  death 
and  the  misconduct  of  the  military  to  the  newspaper,  and  sa  d  he 
also  wished  to  state  in  public  that  there  had  never  been  any  religious 
ill-feeling  in  their  community,  and  that  he  had  always  lived  in  peace 
and  harmony  with  his  neighbors  of  different  faith.  The  next  night 
his  place  was  completely  burned,  and  I  saw  the  ruins  of  it.  There 
Was  scarcely  a  stone  left  upon  a  stone.  I  believe  at  that  time  he 
had  entered  a  report  of  damages  to  the  British  Government  to  the 
extent  of  thirty  thousand  pounds.  It  was  after  making  the  second 
statement  about  the  misconduct  of  the  military  in  that  town  that 
his  home  was  burned.  I  saw  the  place  that  was  set  on  fire.  If  I 
remember  rightly,  his  name  was  Hennissey,  a  man  with  seven  or 
eight  children  in  the  family.  The  house  was  burned  while  all  the 
occupants  were  inside  the  house.  I  asked  if  any  were  burned,  and 
they  said  that  fortunately  all  escaped  over  the  rear  walls  or  through 
the  windows,  and  were  only  bruised  and  cut  a  bit  by  glass. 

The  entire  appearance  of  Bantry  is  of  a  devastated  town  where 
business  is  at  a  standstill.  The  young  men  of  the  town  are  many 
of  them  on  the  run.  They  are  sent  out  from  their  own  homes  to 
other  places,  so  that  the  military  cannot  find  them  when  they  are 
in  search  of  them.  This  cripples  the  industry  of  the  town;  and 
then  the  leading  places  of  the  town  being  burned  and  bombed  has 
crippled  business. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  large  a  place  is  Bantry — three  or  four 
thousand? 

A.  Yes,  more  than  that,  I  think.  It  has  one  long  main  street. 
While  I  was  there,  the  day  I  was  there,  the  workhouse  was  com- 
mandeered by  the  soldiers;  and  the  sisters  in  charge,  the  Sisters  of 
Mercy,  were  given  twenty-four  hours  to  have  all  their  things  taken 
out.  The  poor  and  the  old  people  of  the  town  were  there.  I  think 
there  were  twelve  sisters  in  charge  of  the  institution  ordinarily. 
And  then  all  the  inmates  were  forced  to  leave. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  The  workhouse  in  Ireland  corresponds  with 
the  home  for  the  aged  here? 

A.  Yes;  the  old  and  infirm  and  those  who  have  no  one  to  help 
them.  I  visited  the  town  of  Youghal,  a  seaside  resort,  expecting 
to  have  rest  and  quiet  there.  But  military  lorries  patrolled  the  town 
through  the  day  and  through  the  night,  and  there  was  very  little 
rest  possible.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  destruction,  and  there 
I  witnessed  a  raid  on  several  houses.  They  were  looking  for  boys 
who  were  on  the  run  and  supposed  to  be  in  hiding  there.  I  took 
a  ride  on  the  Blackwater  up  to  Cappoquin,  accompanied  by  my 
niece  and  my  daughter  and  three  of  my  mother's  second  cousins. 


127 

We  were  engaged  on  a  studious  talk  on  that  occasion.  The  girls 
were  speaking  Irish  and  French  to  me.  It  was  an  interesting  gather- 
ing. The  tide  did  not  allow  us  to  return  easily.  We  had  to  oar 
it  all  the  way.  We  had  two  oarsmen  in  the  boat,  and  they  worked 
hard  until  we  reached  Youghal,  about  one-thirty  in  the  morning. 
When  we  reached  the  landing,  military  activities  on  both  sides  of 
the  river  commenced.  The  little  boat  going  down  the  river  made 
them  think,  perhaps,  that  it  was  a  Volunteer  party,  so  that  lights 
were  played  on  the  boat  constantly.  I  was  afraid  they  would  fire 
on  us,  and  I  began  to  sing  "The  Star-Spangled  Banner"  as  well 
as  I  could  sing  it.  I  told  the  girls,  who  had,  perhaps,  a  strong 
Southern  accent,  though  they  speak  a  number  of  languages  with 
equal  fluency,  not  to  speak,  and  I  would  speak  in  my  Yankee  tone. 
So  I  carried  on  a  long  conversation  about  George  Washington. 
Then  we  three  Americans  all  sang  "The  Star-Spangled  Banner," 
and  the  two  oarsmen  pulled  hard  to  reach  the  landing  before  any 
more  signals  were  given  or  lights  played  on  the  boat.  Perhaps  the 
signals  might  be  accounted  for  by  the  fact  that  they  might  have 
thought  we  were  these  boys  on  the  run,  as  they  raided  many  homes 
in  Youghal  the  following  morning. 

BURNING  OF  TEMPLEMORE  TOWN  HALL 

I  returned  to  Templemore  mainly  in  the  interests  of  my  religious 
convictions  a  few  weeks  later,  because  there  had  been  reported 
something  like  a  miracle  transpiring  in  Templemore.  On  that 
second  visit  I  saw  the  ruins  of  the  town  hall,  and  talked  to  an  ex- 
soldier  who  explained  that — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Ex-British  soldier,  or  an  Irishman? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  an  Irish  soldier  who  had  served  with  the  British 
forces  in  the  World  War,  and  was  still  badly  crippled.  He  still 
wore  his  uniform.  He  explained  how  the  petrol  had  been  gathered 
from  the  garages  on  the  little  street  facing  the  Square,  and  how  it 
had  been  poured  over  this  building  and  set  fire  to  the  night  before, 
the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  going  through  the  streets 
knocking  at  the  doors  and  calling,  "Come  out,  you  Irish  swine." 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Had  anything  happened  before  this 
in  Templemore?     What  led  them  to  this  attack? 

A.     No,  not  that  I  could  hear  of,  Miss  Addams. 

The  town  hall  was  where  the  people  gathered  for  their  pleasure 
gatherings.  They  poured  petrol  over  it  and  set  fire  to  it;  but  one 
soldier,  in  attempting  to  burn  it,  was  imprisoned  inside,  and  the 
officer  who  was  with  him,  in  trying  to  jump  through  the  window, 
had  his  leg  broken  and  died  two  days  later. 


128 
VOLUNTEERS  MAINTAIN  ORDER 

Then  this  religious  miracle  that  the  people  could  only  explain 
in  one  way  over  there.  It  created  a  spirit  of  friendliness  between 
the  people  inside  the  barracks  and  the  rest  of  the  people.  They 
refused  to  go  on  with  their  work  of  shooting  and  terrorizing.  I 
was  all  through  that  barracks  at  Templemore.  That  was  the  only 
barracks  I  had  a  chance  of  getting  into.  The  windows  were  all 
barred,  and  there  were  large  sacks  around  the  windows,  and  barbed 
wire  around  the  building. 

Q.  But  what  I  wanted  to  get  at  was  what  started  the  military  to 
attack  Templemore? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  could  not  find  anything.  I  only  know 
that  this  second  burning  with  petrol  was  caused  by  the  death  of  the 
officer  who  had  jumped  through  the  window  of  the  burning  building. 
They  warned  the  people  that  if  the  officer  died  the  town  would  be 
razed  to  the  ground.  It  was  at  this  time  that  the  miracle  occurred. 
The  people  of  every  kind  were  immensely  impressed  with  the 
orderly  nature  of  the  thousands  who  poured  into  the  city  to  see  it, 
as  were  the  police  themselves.  The  police  were  not  in  any  way 
able  to  keep  the  thousands  or  tens  of  thousands  of  people  who  came 
into  the  city  in  order,  and  so  the  Volunteers  did  the  work.  The 
Volunteer  who  led  me  into  the  Square,  he  led  me  in  ahead  of  the 
rest  because  I  was  an  American,  and  I  offered  him  a  pound  note 
and  he  said,  "I  am  a  member  of  the  Volunteer  Army,  and  we  are 
not  allowed  to  take  anything  for  acts  of  courtesy,"  so  he  refused 
this  from  me.  At  this  time  they  were  riding  out  to  a  town  named 
Carriheen,  about  seven  miles  from  Templemore.  Everybody  was 
bent  on  going  out  to  this  village,  and  some  of  the  car  drivers  were 
exacting  up  to  seventy  shillings  for  the  trip.  The  Volunteers  fixed 
the  price  at  something  like  thirty  shillings  less,  so  as  to  prevent  a 
very  great  graft  in  carrying  people  this  short  distance.  They  also 
asked  each  vehicle  that  passed  over  the  road  to  contribute  a  very 
small  sum  toward  the  upkeep  of  the  roads  around  the  town,  which 
was  gladly  paid. 

Q.     Did  they  know  the  Volunteers  were  doing  this? 

A.  Yes,  they  knew,  and  the  police  were  helpless.  They  could 
not  do  anything  with  this  crowd  of  people;  there  were  too  many 
of  them.  The  police  would  come  out  and  talk  with  the  Volunteers 
and  say,  "Boys,  keep  the  people  back  from  the  police  barracks." 


129 

RELATIONS  BETWEEN  POLICE  AND  BLACK-AND- 
TANS 

I  asked  one  of  the  policemen  inside  of  the  barracks  on  this  occa- 
sion if  he  was  an  Irishman,  and  he  said,  "I  am."  I  said,  "Are  you 
then  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement,  or  are  you  in 
sympathy  with  the  Union  as  heretofore  practiced  in  Ireland?"  He 
said,  "You  must  not  ask  me  such  a  question.  There  may  be  some- 
body listening."  I  said,  "If  you  would  resign  your  position,  what 
would  happen  to  you?"  And  he  said  to  me,  "Miss,  do  you  read 
the  papers?  Do  you  know  that  when  a  policeman  resigns  he  either 
has  to  get  out  of  the  country  at  this  stage  of  the  game  or  else  the 
Black-and-Tans  will  probably  tell  him  that  he  has  done  wrong  in 
a  very  effective  way?"  I  got  very  little  from  that.  I  give  it  to 
you  just  as  he  told  it  to  me.  He  said  the  Black-and-Tans  would 
soon  let  a  man  know  that  he  had  done  wrong  in  quitting  the  force. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  What  kind  of  police? 

A.  The  R.  I.  C.  They  have  to  give  a  thirty-day  notice  to  quit 
the  force.  There  was  one  in  Cork  who  gave  this  notice,  and  im- 
mediately there  was  a  police  murder  in  Cork,  and  the  paper  said, 
"Killed  by  parties  unknown." 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  This  same  policeman  was  killed? 

A.  Yes,  the  same  man.  The  policeman  in  the  barracks  called 
my  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  same  man  was  killed  by  parties 
unknown. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  get  the  impression  that  the  Black- 
and-Tan  organization  was  independent  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabu- 
lary, and  was  sort  of  a  spy  organization  upon  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  The  authorities  got  the  impression  that  they  could  not  trust 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  to  do  their  work,  and  so  checked  up 
on  them  by  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  The  two  parties  do  not  get  along  very  well 
in  most  cases.  Inside  the  police  barracks  there  are  usually  several 
Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  the  Black-and-Tans  became  friendly 
with  the  crowd? 

A.  It  means  all  who  were  in  the  barracks;  because  in  this  bar- 
racks there  were  only,  I  think,  two  Black-and-Tans.  I  remember 
passing  them  when  I  walked  into  the  barracks.  There  was  a  great 
deal   of  respect  shown  by  the  military   in   the  adjoining   military 


136 

barracks,  which  is  quite  distinct  from  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
barracks,  in  the  way  the  Volunteers  handled  the  crowd. 

Q.     Up  to  this  time  there  had  been  no  destruction  in  the  town? 

A.  Yes,  the  town  hall  was  destroyed  the  night  before,  and  they 
were  coming  back  in  case  this  officer  died  to  destroy  the  town.  But 
this  little  boy  had  manifested  some  miraculous  evidences,  and  they 
did  not  destroy  the  rest  of  the  town.  The  crowds  were  largely 
praying  through  the  day  and  the  night,  and  the  officers  looked 
around  at  the  crowds  without  attempting  anything.  I  had  a  front 
room  in  the  hotel,  the  first  time  I  was  brave  enough  to  have  one, 
and  looked  out  at  the  crowds. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  These  crowds  came  out  in  anticipa- 
tion of  the  town  being  destroyed? 

A.  No,  on  account  of  the  miracle.  The  crowds  came  from  all 
parts  of  Ireland  and  England.  I  met  many  people  from  England 
who  had  been  waiting  to  get  into  the  town  from  six  o'clock  in  the 
morning. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  The  story  had  gone  out  that  the  miracle 
had  occurred  there  and  the  people  came  from  all  directions  to  see 
about  it? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  it. 

KILLINGS  AND  REPRISALS  IN  GALWAY 

The  main  terror  of  my  experience  in  Ireland  was  in  Gal  way.  I 
had  come  home  late  from  the  Isles  of  Aran,  accompanied  there  by 
a  friend.  I  went  up  to  get  a  paper  from  the  platform  at  the  railroad 
station.  It  was  the  custom  when  the  goods  train  came  in — there 
were  no  passenger  trains  coming  into  Galway — to  have  the  people 
of  the  town  go  up  and  get  the  papers  from  the  train.  They  were 
anxious  to  get  the  news  of  the  condition  of  Mayor  MacSwiney. 
There  was  a  man  on  the  platform  to  whom  I  paid  little  attention, 
and  could  not  give  a  description  of  him  in  a  satisfactory  way.  He 
wore  what  I  think  was  a  loose  cap.  He  did  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  a  regular  soldier,  nor  did  he  seem  to  me  to  be  the  customary 
Black-and-Tan.  There  was  a  woman  on  the  platform  at  the  station 
with  three  or  four  children.  There  was  an  English  officer  on  the 
platform,  and  there  were  many  civilians.  I  turned  my  head  in  this 
direction  (indicating  aside),  and  the  man  in  this  peculiar  uniform 
whipped  out  a  revolver.  He  was  standing  with  another  man  in 
ordinary  attire.  And  he  slashed  the  revolver  around  and  began 
shooting.  One  shot  hit  a  boy  in  the  leg,  and  I  heard  him  call,  "I 
got  it  in  the  leg."  I  ran  then  for  shelter  to  the  door  of  the  hotel, 
and  looked  at  the  woman  running  to  the  British  officer  with  her 


131 

children.  He  seemed  to  be  wholly  engaged  in  keeping  this  woman 
and  children  safe.  I  thought  at  the  time  they  were  his  family,  but 
I  do  not  know  that.  One  of  the  boys  stepped  up  quickly  to  the 
man  who  had  been  shot,  and  then  I  heard  another  shot  ring  out. 
That  boy  was  not  killed  instantly,  but  fell  at  once.  He  later  died, 
and  the  next  day  I  saw  him  in  death.  Then  another  boy  jumped 
from  the  back  and  caught  the  soldier  in  this  way  (indicating  across 
the  body),  so  that  he  had  only  one  hand  free.  And  then  a  harsh 
shot  rang  out  and  this  soldier  fell  to  the  ground. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Who  fired  the  first  shot? 

A.  This  man  in  a  strange  attire.  He  was  not  dressed  as  a 
Black-and-Tan  that  night.  There  was  perfect  peace,  and  we  were 
all  waiting  for  the  papers,  and  he  whipped  out  the  revolver  and 
began  to  fire. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  was  the  purpose  of  the  shooting? 

A.  That  I  could  not  tell.  The  reason  I  went  to  Galway  was  that 
everything  was  quiet  there.  There  was  no  curfew  there  and  every- 
thing was  quiet. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Could  you  give  any  information  why  a  man 
on  the  station  platform,  without  any  reason — a  Black-and-Tan  or 
anybody  else — would  draw  a  revolver  and  begin  to  fire  shots? 

A.  I  cannot  say.  Unless  there  is  some  actual  damage  done  in 
the  town  by  civilians  or  others,  there  is  no  curfew  law.  And  there 
was  no  curfew  law  in  Galway. 

Q.  So  you  think  that  this  man  was  stationed  there  to  shoot  so 
that  the  curfew  law  would  be  applied  to  Galway? 

A.     That  is  what  has  been  suggested. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  The  man  was  not  insane? 

A.     Not  that  I  know. 

Q.  Could  you  gather  whether  the  man  who  did  the  shooting  was 
an  Englishman  or  an  Irishman? 

A.  He  was  an  Englishman  as  well  as  I  could  gather  from  the 
gathering  of  men  in  the  hotel  immediately  after  the  shooting.  It 
was  what  is  known  over  there  as  a  shoneen  hotel,  where  many 
British  officers  stay.  I  chose  this  hotel  for  my  own  safety.  The 
officers  who  were  there  during  the  day  were  downstairs  with  their 
bathrobes  about  them.  One  man  in  full  civilian  dress,  with  the 
same  sort  of  a  cap  on  him  as  the  man  on  the  outside  had,  stepped 
up  to  a  man  right  at  my  side  and  asked  who  had  been  shot.  He 
said,  "I  don't  know  who  he  was."  And  then  the  other  man  said, 
"Tell  me  how  he  was  dressed."  The  man  by  my  side  described  him 
as  best  he  could,  and  then  the  man  with  the  cap  on  said,  "My  God, 
it   is  my   brother,"   and   dashed   up  the  hotel   stairs.     And   then   in 


132 

about  three  minutes  he  jumped  down  the  stairway  of  the  hotel  and 
hurried  out,  stopping  to  talk  to  no  one  and  pushing  them  in  front 
of  him  very  rapidly. 

Immediately  the  crowd  said  there  would  be  a  raid  this  night.  I 
had  a  front  room  up  to  this  time,  for  I  was  unafraid. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  understood  that  this  man  said  that  the 
Englishman  who  was  speaking  was  a  brother  to  the  man  who  fired 
the  shot  and  was  later  killed? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  to  my  room  and  did  not  undress.  I  threw 
a  loose  coat  about  me  and  lay  on  the  bed,  awaiting  danger.  1  was 
not  asleep.  Presently  I  heard  the  tramp  of  soldiers  approaching. 
I  had  with  me,  I  may  explain,  a  few  letters  from  the  Countess 
Markievicz  introducing  me  to  a  British  general.  General  Barton,  who 
is  now  in  Pentonville  prison,  I  believe. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  General  Barton  the  distinguished  general 
who  did  such  splendid  service  during  the  war.  and  returned  to 
Ireland,  and  was  converted  to  Sinn  Fein? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  now  in  Pentonville  prison. 

Q.     You  had  a  letter  to  him? 

A.  Yes,  I  had  a  letter  from  his  sister,  and  also  two  or  three 
letters  from  a  man  in  Cork  whose  business  was  ruined  and  who  got 
out  this  letter,  and  I  bought  several  of  them  for  souvenirs.  I  also 
had  this  copy  of  Dail  Eireann,  which  was  given  to  me  by  the 
Minister  of  Labor,  Countess  Markievicz.  I  also  had  the  card  of 
Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney  for  a  souvenir.  I  had  nothing  else,  with 
the  exception  of  one  or  two  things  as  souvenirs.  I  had  a  letter  to 
Mrs.  Bryce,  the  sister-in-law  of  our  former  ambassador.  All  of  these 
things  seemed  to  me  to  be  contraband  of  war,  and  I  became  abso- 
lutely terrorized,  thinking  that  any  minute  they  might  connect  me 
with  this  murder  case  and  hurry  me  off  to  prison.  I  could  not  light 
a  light  because,  as  I  looked  outside  the  window,  the  soldiers  were 
immediately  outside  the  hotel  door.  There  seemed  to  be  about  two 
hundred  fifty  of  them,  with  helmets  on  them  and  fully  accoutered 
in  war  clothing.  I  drew  back  in  the  room  and  held  these  papers 
as  if  they  were  absolutely  deadly  instruments  instead  of  mere 
writings.  I  began  to  chew  up  the  Lord  Mayor's  card.  I  was  afraid 
they  would  enter  the  room,  and  the  papers  fell  out  of  my  hand  to 
the  floor  and  I  could  not  see  all  of  them.  I  then  opened  the  door 
and  called  to  the  only  man  whom  I  saw  walking  in  the  corridor. 
I  called  to  him  and  said:  "I  am  ill  and  am  alone,  and  want  you 
to  come  in  and  help  me  gather  some  papers."  He  said,  "What 
papers  are  they?"  I  said,  "They  are  merely  personal  correspond- 
ence.    I  want  to  get  them  out  of  the  way."     He  said,  "Then  destroy 


them/'  I  -aid.  "Yes,  destro)  them,  but  one  cannot  light  a  light  in 
here."  He  said.  •"Follow  me."  I  followed  him  into  the  lavatory, 
and  he  said.  ."Throw  them  into  the  lavatory."  I  said.  "If  the) 
don't  go  down,  and  they  find  them,  what  will  happen  to  me?  Then 
I  will  he  shot."  He  said.  "Give  them  to  me,"  and  tore  them  up  in 
hits  and  got  rid  of  them,  and  then  he  asked  me,  "What  right  have 
you  to  have  them?"  I  said,  "They  are  only  letters."  He  said.  "Do 
not  carry  any  letters  or  even  what  is  printed.  The  law  makes  what 
was  printed  or  written  legally  only  a  few  weeks  ago  a  seditious 
document  now." 

Then  I  went  out  into  the  hall  and  saw  two  British  officers,  and 
said.  "Will  some  of  you  men  come  down?  I  am  alone  back  here. 
This  seems  to  he  war  on  women  more  than  on  men."  The  man  said. 
"^  on  may  go  into  your  room.  There  will  he  nothing  happen  to  you. 
You  are  an  American.  Thev  are  only  taking  reprisals  out  in  the 
street."  I  said.  "What  do  you  mean  by  reprisals?"  He  said. 
"They  are  shooting  some  of  the  townspeople  that  deserve  shooting."' 
The  shootings  continued,  volley  after  volley. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  During  all  this  time  was  there  shooting 
going  on? 

A.  Right  outside  the  door.  ^1  on  could  hear  the  shooting  and 
the  commands  given  to  the  soldiers.  1  went  the  next  morning  to  a 
home  that  had  been  almost  completely  destroyed,  petrol  having  been 
poured  upon  it.  One  of  the  ladies  there  had  just  returned  to  Ireland 
on  a  trip  from  America,  after  fifty  years*  absence.  Her  trunk  was 
burned  in  the  fire.  The  house  had  been  attacked  and  they  had 
broken  the  windows  before  trying  to  burn  it.  The  women  got  out 
to  safety. 

Q.     Why  was  this  house  attacked? 

A.  There  was  a  young  boy  there  named  Broderick  who  was  taken 
out  to  be  shot  because  he  was  a  Volunteer.  He  is  not  dead;  he  is  in 
charge  of  the  military  now,  or  has  escaped.  The  Black-and-Tans 
kept  the  firing  up,  and  then  they  went  to  the  lodgings  of  a  young 
boy  named  Quirk.  His  corpse  was  found  early  the  next  morning. 
There  were  nine  bullet  holes  in  his  body  below  the  waist.  He  was 
taken  to  the  spot  where  the  Black-and-Tan  was  shot,  and  then  he 
was  shot  nine  times  below  the  waistdine,  and  did  not  die  until  three 
hours  later.  He  was  virtually  disemboweled.  There  were  pools  of 
blood  from  the  station  just  across  the  way  clear  across  the  street. 
He  died  at  five  o'clock  in  the  morning.  His  name  was  Quirk,  and 
he  was  on  the  run  from  Cork.  There  were  no  inquests  allowed  in 
these  cases.  At  five  o'clock  in  the  morning  there  was  a  very  great 
sound  of  breaking,  although  the  military  were  returning,  and  I  was 


134 

up  and  dressed  and  out  in  the  hall  to  be  near  the  British  officers 
when  the  bullets  were  flying.  It  was  not  the  return  of  the  military. 
They  were  engaged  in  battering  down  the  only  newspaper  in  the 
town.     It  is  called  The  Galway  Express. 

Q.  Commissioner  Acldams:  Who  was  battering  down  this 
paper? 

A.  The  Black-and-Tans.  They  battered  clown  everything  in  the 
office.  I  saw  the  office  at  eight  o'clock  the  next  morning,  and  there 
was  not  a  vestige  of  the  machinery  left.  Everything  was  on  the 
floor  in  heaps.  I  saw  the  manager  of  the  place  stooping  down  and 
gathering  up  single  bits  of  type  which  he  saw  on  the  floor.  They 
gathered  up  enough  type  to  get  out  a  special  edition  of  the  paper 
on  a  little  sheet  like  this  (holding  up  copy).  I  would  like  to  read 
you  what  it  says  (reads)  : 

"The  Galway  Express,  Thursday,  September  Ninth.  Special 
Issue.  Price,  one  penny.  The  Murder  of  Innocent  Men.  People's 
Admirable  Restraint  Under  Extreme  Provocation.  Galway  Express 
Premises  Demolished.  An  Unparalleled  Outbreak  of  Crime  Took 
Place  in  Galway  This  Morning." 

The  Witness:  Perhaps  I  had  better  not  read  it.  It  is  all  like 
that.     Only  this  line  (reads)  : 

"While  definitely  charging  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  with  full 
responsibility  for  the  murders,  we  feel  it  incumbent  upon  us  to 
counsel  the  people  of  Galway  to  remain  calm  under  this  terrible 
provocation.  We  regret  that  under  the  circumstances  we  cannot 
make  any  announcement  of  the  exact  date  on  which  we  will  resume 
publication.  Remember,  Galway  men  and  Galway  women,  the 
watchword  is,  KEEP  COOL." 

I  saw  also  the  body,  the  corpse  of  the  young  Volunteer  who  was 
shot  on  the  station  platform.  There  was  one  bullet  hole  clear 
through  his  head. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  May  I  not  ask  you  about  this? 
Is  it  not  the  same  case  that  Dr.  Cotter  told  us  about  yesterday? 

A.  It  is  the  same  case.  I  do  not  think  Dr.  Cotter  was  on  the 
platform.  I  happened  to  be  there  at  the  time.  I  think  he  was  in 
the  hotel. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  the  man  was  running  amuck,  as  we 
say?  Was  he  not  crazy  to  do  that  when  women  and  children 
were  about? 

A.  That  has  happened  in  several  different  towns.  So  there 
must  be  several  insane  men  about. 

Q.  That  could  happen  under  the  abnormal  pressure  of  that 
situation.     But  you  think  that  there  was  no  provocation? 


135 

A.  No.  Galway  was  a  very  quiet  town,  and  there  was  no  provo- 
cation or  there  would  have  been  a  curfew. 

Q.     But  it  might  have  been  done  more  suddenly. 

A.  The  idea,  I  believe,  was  to  provoke  the  people  into  open 
rebellion.     I  imagine  that  from  what  I  have  said. 

In  Limerick  I  had  a  rear  room  in  the  hotel,  and  I  was  awakened 
from  my  sleep  by- the  cries.  "Halt"*  and  "Fire."  I  jumped  from  my 
bed  and  dressed  quickly.  The  same  cry  rang  out:  "Halt,"  "Hands 
Up,"  "Fire."  It  terrified  me.  I  looked  into  the  court  yard  and 
there  was  nobody  there.  Presently  I  opened  my  door  and  called 
for  some  help.  The  lady  clerk  came  and  said,  "Never  mind.  That 
is  a  man  who  was  on  the  run,  and  he  was  caught  and  escaped.  His 
mind  is  a  little  shattered  now,  and  he  is  resting  in  the  next  room. 
He  does  that  now  all  through  the  night. 

BRAWLS  AND  DRINKING  IN   BARRACKS 

I  think  you  asked  me,  Mr.  Walsh,  about  the  amicable  relations 
between  the  Black-and-Tans  and  R.  I.  C? 

Senator  Walsh:     Yes. 

The  Witness:  I  had  the  privilege  of  going  into  a  prison,  and 
while  there,  one  in  the  prison,  not  incarcerated,  told  me  that  they 
had  spent  the  previous  day  in  watching  the  conduct  between  the 
Black-and-Tans  and  the  R.  I.  C,  and  that  there  was  great  disorder 
within  the  barracks  where  they  were  staying  the  day  before,  and 
that  there  was  a  great  deal  of  whiskey  being  drunk,  and  that  caused 
open  rebellion  between  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  Black-and-Tans,  and 
there  was  as  much  fighting  going  on  inside  as  there  was  outside  the 
barrack. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Are  you  at  liberty  to  name  that  place? 

A.  I  would  not  be  privileged  to  name  it,  because  the  man  whom 
I  mention  is  now  on  the  run,  and  he  was  in  the  prison  as  well  as 
in  the  barrack.  I  could  give  you  intimate  details  of  what  was  going 
on  in  the  barrack. 

I  might  say  that  when  I  reported  to  the  police  on  the  day  when 
Balbriggan  was  devastated,  both  the  policeman  who  took  my  report 
and  the  policeman  who  checked  it  up,  and  the  two  policemen  who 
came  to  look  at  the  American  who  came  in  with  the  passport,  all 
were  strongly  under  the  influence  of  drink.  That  is,  their  eyes 
were  very  bloodshot,  their  faces  very  red,  the  pronunciation  of  their 
words  very  guttural,  and  their  entire  attitude  indicated  it.  The  one 
who  took  my  report  was  a  man  from  England.  He  was  not  dressed 
as  the  other  men.     He  did  not  even  have  on  a  collar,  and  had  his 


13b 

shirt  front  tucked  clown  in  careless  fashion,  and  did  not  know 
anything  of  the  places  I  had  visited  in  Ireland,  and  knew  only 
places  in  England  where  I  was  going. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  they  smell   of  liquor? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.     How  many  of  them? 

A.     There  were  five. 

Q.     Where  was  this? 

A.     In  Dublin. 

Q.     What   building? 

A.     The  Strong  Street  Station. 

Q.     Police  station? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  the  police  station  to  arrange  for  your 
itinerary  in  Ireland,  you  met  these  officers  of  the  government,  and 
it  was  while  you  were  talking  with  them  tbat  you  observed  their 
situation? 

A.      Yes. 

Q.     It  was  about  what  hour  of  the  day? 

A.  About  three  o'clock  in  the  afternoon.  One  had  come  out  of 
a  side  room,  as  if  awakened  from  sleep,  and  he  looked  as  if  he  was 
not  in  any  condition  to  talk  to  anyone. 

Q.     He  was  drunk? 

A.  He  was  not  so  much  drunk  as  in  the  condition  of  emerging 
from  drinking. 

DESTRUCTION   IN   LIMERICK 

I  may  say  that  in  Limerick  I  went  down  one  whole  street  and 
went  down  both  sides  of  the  street  counting  one  house  after  another, 
and  found  not  one  undevastated  house  in  the  whole  street.  It  wa.« 
the  street  where  the  poor  people  lived,  called  Kerry  Row.  I  asked 
them  about  the  conditions  on  the  day  on  which  their  homes  were 
destroyed,  and  they  all  had  a  pitiable  tale  to  tell.  In  Limerick  the 
Black-and-Tans  are  still  patrolling  the  streets  in  groups  of  eight  to 
ten,  and  lorries  were  passing  down  the  principal  thoroughfares. 
iVfany  homes  were  burned,  and  during  the  night  there  was  a  home 
bombed  and  burned  while  I  Was  there. 

Q.      Did  you  find  any  peaceful  conditions  anywhere  in  Ireland? 

A,.  Let  me  see.  I  think  the  most  peaceful  place  I  found  was  at 
Lisdoonvarna. 

Q.     How  many  places  did  you  visit? 

A.      I  visited,  I  think,  forty  or  fifty  towns  in  Ireland. 


137 

Q.  And  this  was  the  only  place  where  you  found  normal  con- 
ditions? 

A.  The  conditions  were  not  normal  there,  hul  the  conditions 
were  less  terrorizing  than  in  any  other  town  I  visited.  It  is  a  water- 
ing place,  and  there  are  many  English  officers  there. 

Q.     What  is  your  nationality? 

A.     My  father  is  of  English  descent,  and  my  mother,  Irish. 

I  have  here  letters  from  the  Minister  of  Labor  in  Ireland,  show- 
ing the  nature  of  the  laws  as  operated  by  the  Republican  forces. 
This  was  given  to  me  by  the  Countess  Markieviez,  the  Minister  of 
Labor;  it  was  issued  a  few  days  before  I  visited  her.  1 1  shows  how 
the 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     Is  it  printed  in  Gaelic  or  in  English? 

A.     It  is  printed  in  both. 

Q.     Can  you  leave  it  with  us  for  a  few  hours? 

A.      I  can  leave  it. 

IN  BURNED  BALBRIGGAN 

I  was  going  to  say  that  I  have  more  to  tell  you  from  Balbriggan. 
I  was  in  the  room  while  the  testimony  was  given.  But  I  went  out  to 
Balbriggan  the  following  day,  the  day  before  Patrick  Lynch  wa> 
killed  in  a  Dublin  hotel.  I  went  out,  but  I  was  so  terrified  by  the 
appearances — it  seemed  to  me  that  hundreds  of  Black-and-Tans  were 
on  the  roads  going  out — wonderful  military  activity.  As  you  ap- 
proached the  town,  you  met  the  people  fleeing,  with  sometimes 
pathetic  amounts  of  baggage  in  their  hands.  Sometimes  they  were 
taking  all  they  had  with  them.  I  met  many  women  with  children 
huddled  about  their  skirts,  fleeing  from  the  town.  1  witnessed  all 
the  burned  buildings  that  have  been  spoken  about  this  morning. 
The  terror  of  the  roads  is  quite  indescribable! 

I  The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.  I 

Senator  Walsh  (presiding)  :  Air.  Hackett,  will  you  be  here  until 
half -past  two? 

Mr.   Hackett:    Yes. 

Senator  Walsh:    We  shall   adjourn,  then,  until   half-pasl   two. 

(1:15  P.  M.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  FRANCIS  HACKETT 

(2:35  P.  M.) 

Chairman  Howe:  The  session  will  please  come  to  order.  The 
first  witness  this  afternoon  is  Air.  Francis  Hackett  of  the  Neiv 
Republic.  New   York.      (The  witness  takes  the  stand.  I 


138 

Q.  Mr.  Hackett,  will  you  please  state  your  professional  relations 
and  anything  else  about  yourself  that  you  desire,  as  a  preliminary 
statement  of  fact? 

A.  First  of  all,  I  think  I  had  better  state  that  I  am  an  Irishman 
born.  I  have  been  in  this  country  since  1900.  I  think  I  was  about 
eighteen  when  I  came  here.  And  I  have  lived  here  continuously 
since,  with  the  exception  of  one  year.  I  was  a  year  in  Ireland  in 
1912  to  1913.  I  went  home  for  personal  reasons.  My  father  was 
ill,  and  I  stayed  with  him  as  long  as  he  lived.  Then  I  came  back 
to  this  country  and  became  an  editor  of  the  New  Republic,  and 
stayed  in  this  country  until  last  May.  My  wife,  Miss  Toksvig,  and 
myself  went  then  to  England  and  then  to  Denmark  for  five  weeks, 
and  reached  Ireland  in  July, — towards  the  end  of  July,  and  stayed 
there  until  the  end  of  September.  We  were  then  eight  weeks  in 
Ireland.  I  went  to  Ireland  for  two  reasons:  one  was  to  see  my 
own  people,  and  the  other  was  to  write  a  few  articles  for  the  New 
York  World  and  to  make  an  investigation  as  much  all  over  the 
country  as  possible  under  the  circumstances.  As  I  said,  we  stayed 
there  for  eight  weeks,  going  over  the  ground  in  the  south  and  north 
and  west  of  Ireland,  and,  of  course,  in  Dublin  a  great  deal. 


Q.     How  much  country  did  you 


cover : 


A.  I  should  say  we  covered  roughly  about  two-thirds  of  the 
country.  We  went  to  my  home  town,  which  is  a  small  place,  Kil- 
kenny. We  went  from  Kilkenny  to  Waterford,  and  from  Waterford 
to  Drogheda,  and  from  Drogheda  to  Cork,  and  to  Kerry  for  a  few 
days,  and  then  to  Limerick,  and  then  to  Dublin,  and  then  to  Bel- 
fast, and  then  to  Galway,  and  back  to  Dublin  and  Kilkenny;  and 
then  we  spent  several  days  in  Londonderry  before  we  sailed. 

Q.  All  this  time  you  were  gathering  material  for  the  work  you 
were  doing  for  the  New  York  World? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.     And  you  are  also  the  author  of  a  book  on  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

INDEPENDENCE   THE   SOLE   SOLUTION    OF   IRISH 
ISSUE 

When  I  went  home  in  1913  I  was  particularly  interested  in  the 
economic  conditions  in  Ireland.  I  thought  that  the  Irish  question 
was  largely  a  democratic  economic  question, — the  question  of   the 


139 

struggle  of  lower  classes  to  come  up.  In  other  words,  the  very 
much  same  sort  of  struggle  that  was  going  on  in  England,  but  com- 
plicated by  the  fact  that  the  ruling  class,  the  shell,  was  not  only 
different  economically  but  also  different  racially.  I  made  up  my 
mind  while  I  was  there  to  collect  all  the  material  1  could  that  bore 
on  that  subject,  and  then  to  write  a  book  on  Ireland  after  my  return 
to  America.  At  first  I  thought  of  calling  the  book  "What  America 
Could  Teach  Ireland."  I  thought  there  was  a  great  deal  to  be 
learned  from  this  country  in  practical  ways  as  far  as  education  was 
concerned,  as  far  as  self-help  is  concerned,  the  organization  of 
laborers,  the  organization  of  educational  bodies,  and  that  sort  of 
thing.  I  did  not  get  the  book  completed  until  the  war  came  on,  and 
a  lot  of  preconceptions  that  I  had  about  the  possibilities  of  self-help 
and  the  unimportance  of  politics  went.  I  became  convinced  that  it 
did  matter  what  political  relations  you  had  and  what  the  sover- 
eignty of  a  country  was.  After  we  went  into  the  war,  I  determined 
that  since  Ireland  was  a  small  nation  in  the  same  sort  of  plight  with 
a  great  many  other  small  nations,  I  made  a  great  effort  to  get  out 
my  book.  And  I  got  out  this  book,  which  is  about  four  hundred 
pages,  in  1914.  I  got  it  out  because  I  came  to  believe  that  the  thing 
that  the  Irish  had  to  do  was  to  get  a  working  relationship  in  Ireland, 
and  in  order  to  do  so  they  must  have  a  measure  of  self-government 
in  Ireland.  At  the  time  I  believed  that  the  best  measure  they  could 
get  was  a  measure  of  dominion  home  rule.  I  wrote  the  book  with 
that  as  a  conclusion;  the  helpful  thing  for  Ireland  was  not  to  get 
an  economically  workable  solution  like  the  Home  Rule  Bill  of  1914, 
but  an  economically  workable  solution  like  the  Dominion  Acts  of 
Canada  and  Australia  and  South  Africa.  In  1919,  after  observing 
the  situation,  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that  the  British  were  not  in 
a  position  to  give  the  Irish  that  solution.  There  was  no  prospect 
for  a  solution  along  this  line;  that  the  real  vitality  in  Ireland  was  a 
vitality  that  demanded  a  different  solution — a  solution  along  the 
lines  laid  down  by  President  Wilson  for  the  squaring  of  the  troubles 
on  the  continent  of  Europe.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  who  came  to  this 
country  in  1919,  asked  me  if  I  would  be  the  representative  for  a 
new  paper  he  was  about  to  start  called  The  New  Statesman.  I  made 
up  my  mind  that  it  would  be  against  the  will  of  the  majority  of  the 
Irish  people  to  advocate  the  solution  he  represented,  and  I  deter- 
mined to  publish  a  new  edition  of  my  book  stating  that  the  Irish 
problem  solution  was  to  give  the  Irish  the  same  sort  of  autonomy 
that  the  American  Republic  achieved  in  1776.     In    1914  I  wrote  in 


140 

the  New  Republic  that  the  English  were  taking  a  course  of  action 
that  any  Englishman  would  see  was  leading  to  an  armed  crisis. 
Certainly  it  was  apparent  to  any  man  who  had  studied  the  Irish 
situation  that  something  like  that  was  bound  to  occur. 

When  I  went  to  Ireland,  I  went  not  only  to  investigate  the  facts, 
but  also  to  interpret  them.  I  saw  the  situation  very  like  the  situation 
in  Finland  that  we  have  long  been  familiar  with;  like  the  situation 
in  Bohemia,  the  Jugo-Slav  situation,  the  Schleswig  situation,  the 
Armenian  situation,  the  Alsace-Lorraine  situation, — the  situation  of 
a  people  that  had  long  been  imperialized  struggling  to  get  for 
themselves  conditions  of  self-development  that  they  could  not  get 
without  a  new  constitution, — a  new  constitution  that  they  only  could 
hope  to  get  by  securing  independence.  I  was  very  instructed  in  that 
field  by  the  attitude  that  we  ourselves  took  in  this  country  toward 
similar  struggles.  On  my  paper,  the  New  Republic,  we  had  two 
members  of  our  staff  who  went  to  work  for  the  United  States  Gov- 
ernment after  we  went  into  the  war  in  1917,  and  their  particular  job 
was  this:  they  went  into  Military  Intelligence,  and  they  were  dis- 
patched by  our  government  to  England.  And  there  they  worked  out 
in  conjunction  with  certain  Englishmen  a  policy  by  which  they 
would  get  information  over  to  the  Czecho-Slovaks,  who  were  fight- 
ing for  Austria,  by  which  they  would  persuade  the  Czecho-Slovaks 
not  to  fight  for  Austria  but  to  desert  the  cause  of  Austria,  and  to 
assert  their  own  legitimate  claims  to  freedom  by  deserting  Austria. 
I  bring  this  point  in  for  this  purpose:  everything  depends  in  these 
situations  of  nationalism  on  what  you  mean  by  law  and  order  and 
what  you  mean  by  lawlessness.  When  a  man  like  Sir  Roger  Case- 
ment, for  example,  went,  to  the  Irish  soldiers  who  were  in  the  British 
army  and  said  the  same  thing  to  them  that  the  editors  of  the  New 
Republic  said  to  the  Czecho-Slovaks  by  sending  them  similar  mes- 
sages tied  to  balloons  that  were  timed  to  come  down  at  the  right 
time  and  in  the  right  places,  Sir  Roger  Casement  was  tried  and  exe- 
cuted for  treason  for  that  sort  of  propaganda.  But  we  of  the  United 
States  saw  that  justice  for  Czecho-Slovakia  and  other  small  nations 
on  the  continent  of  Europe  meant  that  they  could  not  be  free  unless 
they  broke  away  from  an  empire  that  was  sacrificing  them. 

PURPOSE  IN  GOING  TO  IRELAND 

I  conceived  that  there  was  some  such  sort  of  situation  in  Ireland, 
and  in  order  to  interpret  the  facts,  one  had  to  find  out  what  one 
meant   by   law   and  order.      And  I   went   to   Ireland  to   answer  two 


141 

questions  for  myself:  1  was  told  in  London  that  the  Irish  were  kill- 
ing police,  and  that  the  Irish  were  being  lawless,  and  that  the  law- 
lessness was  in  the  hands  of  a  band  of  young  men  who  were  not 
responsible,  and  that  that  lawless  situation  in  Ireland  must  be  met 
with  force. — by  the  use  of  military  force.  I  was  told  by  certain 
Englishmen  in  conversation  that  that  was  the  real  interpretation  ol 
the  Irish  situation.  The  manager  of  Cook's  bank  in  London  told 
me  that  that  was  the  true  solution  of  the  Irish  situation.  I  met  an 
old  man  on  the  street  whose  bag  I  carried  (although  at  first  he  was 
a  bit  sceptical  and  thought  I  might  be  a  pickpocket,  yet  he  final  I  y 
did  take  a  chance,  for  the  bag  was  heavy),  and  he  told  me  that  that 
was  the  solution  of  the  Irish  question.  I  found  that  that  was  the 
general  idea  in  England;  on  the  one  hand,  a  band  of  extremists  who 
were  excitable  and  did  not  know  what  they  wanted  and  who  were 
killing  the  police  who  were  striving  to  maintain  law  and  order;  and 
on  the  other  hand  a  band  of  noble,  heroic  police  seeking  to  suppress 
this  lawlessness.  And  I  went  to  Ireland  to  find  out  if  that  was  the 
case. 

I  have  been  here  for  two  days  and  heard  the  testimony  of  various 
kinds  covering  what  happened  in  Dublin  and  Thurles  and  Balbrig- 
gan,  and  perhaps  I  could  help  out  if  I  stated  other  facts. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  would  like  to  have  you  state  whether  you 
found  those  facts  general  in  Ireland,  and  also  tell  what  you  think 
should  be  done. 

Senator  Walsh:  May  I  interrupt  you  to  inquire  about  your  re- 
ligion? 

A.  May  I  tell  you  exactly  what  my  religion  is?  I  was  born  in 
the  Roman  Catholic  Church.  I  have  a  brother  in  the  clergy  who  is 
now  stationed  in  Limerick,  who  is  a  hot  Sinn  Feiner.  but  who,  din- 
ing trouble  in  Limerick,   saved  the   lives   of  three  English    officers. 

Q.  I  do  not  want  to  be  personal  at  all,  but  I  want  to  weigh  your 
evidence  by  way  of  your  religious   convictions. 

A.  I  formed  a  newr  religion  when  I  came  to  this  country.  I  am 
a  man  of  religious  feeling,  but  1  am  a  member  of  no  church.  I  have 
not  been  inside  a  church,  except  for  curiosity,  for  twenty  years. 

Q.  Did  you  have  Sinn  Fein  sympathies  when  you  went  to  lie- 
land? 

A.  I  have  always  sympathized  with  Sinn  Fein  as  an  aspiration. 
I  have  never  believed  it  was  practicable  until  1919.  In  1919,  when 
Sir  Horace  Plunkett  asked  me  to  be  the  representative  of  his  paper. 
I  had  to  make  a  choice,  and  1  decided  that  Sinn  Fein  was  practical. 


142 

and  was  the  only  healthy  moral  thing  for  the  Irish  to  act  upon. 
They  really  wanted  independence,  in  my  belief,  and  they  had  to  be 
honest  with  themselves.  There  was  no  use  saying  they  wanted  a 
half-measure  when  they  wanted  independence. 

Senator  Walsh:  Excuse  the  interruption.  I  merely  wanted  to 
get  the  background. 

ROYAL  IRISH   CONSTABULARY   ORIGINATED   FOR 
POLITICAL  PURPOSE 

The  Witness:  First,  when  I  went  into  Ireland  I  found  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary.  They  were  invented  by  Peel  in  1820.  There 
was  trouble  in  Ireland  a  hundred  years  ago  just  as  there  is  today, — 
trouble  in  Cork  and  Belfast  and  Dublin  and  elsewhere.  The  gov- 
ernment was  authorized  by  Peel  to  put  the  military  into  Ireland. 
If  you  made  a  chart  of  the  police  stations  in  Ireland,  you  would  find 
that  if  you  had  a  gridiron  with  spaces  ten  miles  square  and  covering 
Ireland,  you  would  find  a  police  station  in  the  center  of  each  space 
of  the  gridiron.  Sometimes  the  police  stations  are  in  hamlets  of  a 
few  homes,  and  sometimes  in  a  town  like  Kilkenny  you  will  find 
forty  or  fifty  policemen.  The  number  of  policemen  in  Scotland  is 
about  three  to  four  thousand.  In  Ireland  there  are  from  thirty  lo 
forty  thousand  police.  In  population  the  two  countries  are  about 
the  same  size:  Scotland  has  4,700,000  and  Ireland  4,300,000.  Ire- 
land, then,  has  ten  times  as  many  police  to  the  population  as  has 
Scotland.  And  this  in  time  of  peace  when  crimes  like  manslaughter 
and  murder  have  always  been  less  in  Ireland  than  in  Scotland.  The 
police  were  put  in  Ireland  for  a  political  purpose.  They  were  really 
the  advance-guard  of  imperialism.  They  were  there  not  because 
there  was  work  for  them  to  do,  but  because  there  might  be  work 
for  them  to  do,  largely  in  regard  to  public  opinion.  Three-fourths 
of  the  police  are  Catholics,  but  the  men  were  picked  for  other  rea- 
sons. Oxford  and  Cambridge  men  were  preferred  for  the  police. 
The  police  were  always  semi-armed,— bayonets  on  their  belts  and 
batons.  And  they  always  had  in  the  barracks  carbines,  and  were 
drilled  by  the  military  in  the  barracks  yards.  They  were  recruited 
from  the  Irish  peasantry.  If  the  farm  could  not  support  two  or 
three  men  in  Kerry  or  Tipperary  or  Cork,  the  boy  would  go  into  the 
police.  It  was  never  looked  upon  as  a  very  desirable  occupation, 
but  if  there  was  no  work  to  do  on  the  farm,  the  boys  would  go  into 
the  police. 


3K 
143 

POLICE  ACT  AS  SPIES  FOR  MILITARY 

After  1916  and  the  uprising  in  Dublin  a  new  situation  occurred 
with  regard  to  the  police  that  is  very  important  to  grasp.  When  the 
rising  took  place,  it  only  took  place  in  Dublin  and  in  Galway.  But 
it  was  firmly  believed  that  there  were  plans  for  a  rising  all  over 
Ireland.  The  week  after  the  rising,  troops  were  brought  into  Ire- 
land. They  poured  into  the  country  in  great  numbers.  There  were 
a  thousand  in  Kilkenny.  The  military  immediately  got  into  touch 
with  the  police  and  said:  "Who  are  the  people  here  who  are  sus- 
pected of  being  Sinn  Feiners,  or  people  of  independent  opinion,  or 
dangerous  people?"'  The  head  constable  in  my  own  town  of  Kil- 
kenny gave  a  list  to  the  military  of  people  who  had  ever  given  him 
any  trouble  of  any  kind.  In  that  little  town,  over  fifty  young  men 
were  deported,  young  men  who  belonged  to  Sinn  Fein  and  others 
who  believed  in  the  Republican  movement  philosophically.  It  was 
a  philosophical  belief  rather  than  an  armed  program.  About  two 
thousand  people  were  deported  from  Ireland  to  detention  camps  in 
England.  Those  men  went  with  a  certain  feeling  toward  the  police, 
and  then  when  they  came  back  they  were  down  on  the  police  books 
as  radicals  and  dangerous  men.  And  then  the  fight  for  conscription 
began  in  Ireland,  and  it  became  necessary  to  make  a  case  out  for 
conscription  and  also  for  the  attitude  of  Ireland  in  regard  to  Ger- 
many. And  so  the  discovery  was  made  that  there  was  in  Ireland  a 
German  plot.  In  1917  the  Irish  convention  was  called  by  Lloyd 
George,  and  there  was  an  amnesty.  And  in  1918  there  were  a  large 
number  of  men  arrested  and  kept  in  England  without  trial  for  about 
ten  months  and  then  released.  In  1917  and  1918  the  police  became 
very  anxious  in  Ireland  about  the  people  in  case  they  should  resist 
conscription. 

THE  ULSTER  REBELLION  TREASON  AGAINST  THE 
CROWN 

It  was  particularly  important  because  there  was  a  contrast  in  the 
treatment  between  the  people  in  the  south  of  Ireland  and  the  people 
in  the  north  of  Ireland.  If  I  may  dwell  on  this  question  for  about 
three  minutes  I  think  it  will  illuminate  the  attitude  of  the  Irish 
people  toward  law  and  order.  In  1913  when  I  was  home  there  was 
a  rebellion  going  on  in  Ireland  of  a  very  respectable  character.  It 
was  headed  by  Lord  Londonderry,  Lord  Willoughby  de  Broke,  the 
Duke  of  Abercorn,  Sir  Edward  Carson,  Lord  Birkenhead,  General 


Ill, 

Hackett  Payne,  who  is  now  the  military  commander  in  Ulster,  and 
a  large  number  of  other  gentlemen  from  the  House  of  Lords  in 
England,  and  other  persons  who  might  be  called  by  an  unsym- 
pathetic person  members  of  the  Junker  class.  These  men  had  or- 
ganized rebellion  against  the  British  Government  because  there  was 
in  process  of  being  passed  by  Parliament  a  Home  Rule  Bill  for  Ire- 
land; the  point  of  this  rebellion  by  these  gentlemen  Junkers  was 
that  Ulster  was  to  be  brought  under  the  Home  Rule  bill,  and  thev 
did  not  want  that  to  be  brought  about.  They  wanted  Ulster  inde- 
pendent. A  projected  independence  for  Ulster  was  arranged  by  Sir 
Edward  Carson,  and  a  virtual  revolution  declared  in  1914.  Machine 
guns  and  rifles  were  imported  from  Germany,  and — 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Before  autumn  of  1914? 

A.  Late  in  1913  and  early  in  1914.  This  effort  to  bring  arms  to 
Ireland  was  going  on  all  the  time,  and  was  very  successful  because 
the  military  authorities  did  not  try  to  stop  it. 

Q.  You  began  to  utter  the  sentence  that  the  British  officers  ab- 
sented themselves  from  the  docks,  and  by  their  absence  allowed  the 
revolutionists  in  the  north  of  Ireland  to  receive  arms  and  munitions 
from  Germany,  did  you  not? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  Who  were  the  leaders  in  this  movement  in  the  north  of  Ire 
land? 

A.  The  leaders  were  Sir  Edward  Carson,  Mr.  Bonar  Law,  F.  E. 
Smith,  who  is  now  Lord  Birkenhead,  Lord  Chancellor  of  England. 
Lord  Londonderry,  who  is  now  dead,  and  various  members  of  the 
House  of  Lords.  The  chief  recruiting  officer  of  that  lot  in  London 
was  Lord  Roberts.  They  raised  large  sums  of  money.  They  raised 
five  thousand  dollars  for  Red  Cross  wrork — at  least  they  raised  it  on 
paper.  They  had  a  huge  parade  in  Belfast  that  was  attended  by 
newspaper  reporters  from  all  over  the  world;  also  by  reporters  from 
Germany,  who  wanted  to  see  how  big  the  revolution  was  going  to  be. 

Q.     What  was  the  organization  called? 

A.  The  Ulster  Volunteers.  By  the  way,  I  must  point  out  that  at 
this  time  there  was  a  Liberal  government  in  England.  The  Liberal 
government  almost  got  to  the  point  of  arresting  Sir  Edward  Carson; 
but  it  was  recently  disclosed  by  Colonel  Reppington  in  his  biography 
of  the  war  that  when  the  arrest  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  brought 
up  by  the  Liberal  government,  the  King  absolutely  prohibited  the 
arrest. 


I  to 


0.     What  was  the  charge  against  him? 

A.  Treason  against  the  Crown.  Sir  Edward  Carson  said:  "There 
is  no  need  to  inform  me  that  what  I  am  doing  is  anarchy.  I  know 
it."  And  he  was  very  well  informed  ahout  it.  for  he  knew  that  the 
British  army  would  not  move  against  Lister.  Orders  were  given  to 
troops  to  move  from  Kildare  to  I  lster.  and  they  refused  to  move. 
Certain  resignations  were  taken  from  the  army  on  that  occasion. 
One  of  the  resigners  was  Lord  French,  who  is  now  Lord  Lieutenant 
of  Ireland:  also  General  Hackett  Payne,  who  was  then  recruiting 
for  the  army,  and  is  now  in  command  of  the  government  troops  in 
Munster.  You  might  not  remember  that  some  months  later  Sir 
Edward  Carson  was  put  into  the  British  Cabinet. 

THE  SOUTH  OF  IRELAND  ARMS  IN  DEFENSE 

The  young  men  in  the  south  of  Ireland  said:  "Now  the  north  ol 
Ireland  is  armed.  We  have  never  been  allowed  to  have  arms  in  the 
south  of  Ireland,  except  for  Held  sports, — shotguns  and  so  forth." 
Permits  were  given  by  the  local  authorities,  the  resident  magis- 
trates, for  sporting  guns  and  rifles. — I  imagine  to  shoot  rooks  with, 
and  things  like  that.  The  lists  of  people  who  had  such  guns  were 
known  to  the  police,  and  usually  hung  up  in  the  post-office.  They 
were  usually  rich  people.  The  people  of  the  south  of  Ireland  made 
up  their  minds  that  if  the  north  of  Ireland  were  to  be  armed,  that 
they  were  to  be  armed  too.  Perhaps  it  was  a  reprehensible  thing, 
from  my  humanitarian  point  of  view,  a  very  bad  thing;  but  perhaps 
it  was  human.  The  moment  the  south  of  Ireland  began  to  import 
arms,  the  government  moved.  The  last  day  of  August,  1914,  a 
yacht  brought  arms  to  a  place  called  Howth  outside  of  Dublin,  and 
landed  arms  to  a  body  called  the  National  Volunteers.  The 
troops 

Q.      Senator  Walsh:     The    British  troops? 

BACHELOR'S  WALK  MASSACRE  ALIENATES  IRISH 
FROM  WAR 

A.  The  British  troops  and  the  police  were  sent  to  intercept  those 
arms,  and  they  failed  to  get  there  in  time  to  intercept  them.  Thev 
came  back  to  the  city  of  Dublin  from  Howth.  a  seven  miles"  walk. 
The  people  came  out  from  the  terrible  slums  of  Dublin,  and  I  think 
they  must  have  jeered  at  the  soldiers.     Some  said  they  also   threw 


146 

stones.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  feeling  against  the  soldiers.  The 
soldiers  fired  into  the  crowd  and  killed  four  and  wounded  about 
sixty.  This  was  in  the  week  before  the  declaration  of  war  against 
Germany.  The  young  Sinn  Fein  men  who  were  running  the  three 
or  four  papers  that  were  allowed  to  be  published  said:  "This  is  the 
beginning  of  the  end  in  Ireland.  Blood  has  been  shed  by  the  Brit- 
ish soldiers."  There  was  an  inquest  after  this  killing  that  was  a 
whitewash.  The  regiment  was  moved  away.  The  young  Sinn 
Feiners  said:  "We  have  no  sympathy  with  the  war  to  be  fought  by 
men  who  have  just  been  killing  civilians  on  the  streets  of  Dublin 
with  only  very  slight  provocation." 

HEROES  OR  CRIMINALS? 

Then  you  have  got  the  situation  developing  in  1916  and  the  use 
of  the  police  for  political  purposes.  They  were  used  to  root  out  all 
the  young  men  of  advanced  ideas,  and  in  many  cases  the  women, 
and  to  put  all  those  who  had  any  idea  of  freedom  for  Ireland  in 
the  place  of  criminals.  You  got  a  contrast  all  the  time  there  be- 
tween the  heroes  of  Poland  and  the  people  of  Czecho-Slovakia  and 
the  people  in  Schleswig  and  Finland  and  Alsace-Lorraine  who  had 
no  part  in  this  war, — who  were  going  to  be  given  their  freedom; 
the  contrast  between  them  and  the  people  of  Ireland,  who  had  simi- 
lar claims  and  who  were  regarded  as  criminals. 

HOME  RULE,  TOO  LONG  DEFERRED, 
DESPAIRED  OF 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  For  the  sake  of  the  record,  will  you  state 
how  far  and  to  what  extent  the  Home  Rule  Bill  had  reached  at  the 
outbreak  of  the  war? 

A.  There  was  no  dominion  home  rule  bill.  There  was  pending 
a  bill  to  give  Ireland  a  sort  of  qualified  home  rule. 

Q.  That  bill  was  accepted  by  Redmond  and  that  party,  but  not 
acceptable  to  the  Ulsterites? 

A.  Yes,  not  acceptable  to  the  Ulsterites.  It  had  passed  the  House 
of  Lords,  and  the  King  was  to  sign  it  on  September  14,  1914.  He 
signed  it,  and  it  was  to  become  law  for  Ireland.  But  a  compromise 
was  reached  by  which  it  was  to  be  held  up  and  not  become  law  until 
an  amendment  was  passed  making  some  provision  for  Ulster. 

Q.     How  can  a  bill  that  had  been  passed  and  signed  be  held  up? 

A.  Senator  Walsh,  the  British  constitution  is  an  unwritten  docu- 
ment, depending  upon  the  interpretation  of  lawyers.     The  idea  was 


147 

that  they  had  suspended  this  law  for  one  year,  and  that  this  amend- 
ment was  to  be  made. 

Q.  The  bill  was  enacted,  but  the  administrative  forces  refused, 
or  by  agreement  did  not  provide  machinery  to  carry  it  out? 

A.  Exactly.  That  is  the  legal  situation.  The  bill  has  since  been 
repealed.  As  part  of  the  Home  Rule  Bill  now  before  the  House  of 
Commons,  this  Home  Rule  Bill  is  to  be  repealed. 

Q.  Was  it  apparent  that  during  all  that  time  in  1914  that  this 
bill  was  to  be  passed  by  the  House  of  Lords? 

A.  The  bill  was  never  passed  by  the  House  of  Lords.  But  in 
1910 

Q.  Yes,  I  know.  It  was  passed  twice  by  the  House  of  Commons, 
which  made  the  action  of  the  House  of  Lords  unnecessary. 

A.  Yes,  in  1910  a  Veto  Bill  was  passed  that  if  the  House  of 
Lords  rejected  a  bill  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  twice,  it 
could  be  passed  over  their  heads. 

The  people  say  in  Ireland:  Do  you  want  Dominion  Home  Rule 
in  Ireland?  They  say:  Suppose  we  do  agree  to  accept  Dominion 
Home  Rule,  and  that  bill  is  introduced  in  the  House  of  Commons, 
and  it  is  then  passed  after  many  amendments  to  it.  It  then  goes  to 
the  House  of  Lords,  and  is  rejected.  It  is  then  passed  by  the  House 
of  Commons  and  given  back  to  the  House  of  Lords,  and  is  then 
rejected.  Then  many  amendments  are  made,  and  it  then  goes  back 
to  the  House  of  Lords.  And  then  it  is,  after  four  years,  again  really 
enacted  by  the  Commons  and  goes  to  the  King  for  his  signature, 
and  afterwards  put  on  the  statute  books.  And  then  there  will  be 
other  details  and  delays  until,  they  say,  perhaps  bv  that  time  our 
great  grandchildren  will  be  interested  in  it.  And  they  say:  We 
have  no  interest  in  a  Home  Rule  Bill  along  those  lines. 

When  I  went  to  Ireland  I  went  to  get  an  answer  to  these  ques- 
tions: Is  it  true,  as  they  say  in  London,  that  the  Irish  are  killing 
policemen,  and  that  the  Irish  who  are  killing  policemen  are  a  small 
band  of  extremists?  I  went  all  over  the  ground  that  we  heard 
covered  this  morning.  It  seems  to  me  that  what  was  said  is  per- 
fectly in  accord  with  the  facts. 

EXTENT  OF  MILITARY  RULE  IN  IRELAND 

Now,  I  went  to  a  number  of  places  in  Ireland,  first  of  all  with 
the  preoccupation  of  finding  out  the  facts  about  military  rule:  how 
far  does  military  rule  exist  in  Ireland?  I  tried  first  of  all  to  find 
out  how  many  troops  were  there  in  Ireland.     It  is  generally  be- 


148 

lieved  that  the  number  of  troops  in  this  country  would  be  three  to 
four  hundred  thousand. 

Senator  Walsh:  Before  the  war  about  one  hundred  fifty  thou- 
sand.    Our  new  bill  provides  for  much  more  than  that. 

The  Witness:  In  Ireland,  which  is  a  country  of  four  million 
three  hundred  thousand  people,  the  British  government  said  there 
were  about  fifty  thousand  troops.  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith,  the  acting 
president  of  the  Irish  Republic,  said  he  could  prove  there  were  one 
hundred  thirty  thousand  troops  stationed  in  Ireland.  In  addition  to 
those,  there  were  around  thirty  thousand  of  the  Irish  police,  less 
about  one  thousand  that  had  resigned,  plus  about  a  thousand  re- 
cruited Black-and-Tans  who  had  the  status  of  sergeants  and  a  large 
body  of  Black-and-Tans  who  came  in  with  the  ordinary  status  of 
constable, — perhaps  six  or  seven  thousand.  So  you  got  in  all  a 
body  hovering  around  one  hundred  fifty  thousand,  as  large  as  the 
ordinary  peace  establishment  in  the  United  States,  which  has  a 
population  of  one  hundred  million;  that  is  to  say,  twenty-five  times 
as  many  per  person  as  would  normally  be  here  before  the  war. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  That  was  true  when  you  left? 

A.  Before  I  left  I  saw  Arthur  Griffith,  late  in  September.  I 
need  not  tell  you  that  it  is  impossible  to  find  out  from  the  British 
Government  how  many  troops  there  are  in  Ireland.  They  convert 
homes  and  public  buildings  of  all  sorts  into  barracks,  so  that  it  is 
impossible  to  tell  how  many  there  are.  Before  the  war  Ireland  was 
a  great  training  ground  for  British  troops, — perhaps  twenty-five 
thousand  always  in  training  there. 

I  am  just  trying  to  give  the  first  crude  aspects  of  British  rule. 
Perhaps  it  would  be  more  interesting  to  the  Commission  if  I  an- 
swered questions  which  would  be  given  rather  than  relate  my  own 
account. 

WHY  POLICEMEN  ARE  KILLED 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  think  it  would  be  interesting  to 
know  how  many  policemen  were  killed. 

A.  I  wanted  to  find  out  why  the  policemen  were  killed  and  how 
many  were  killed.  The  numbers  given  in  the  British  House  of  Com- 
mons are  about  one  hundred  twenty  killed  during  the  last  few  years 
in  Ireland.  The  situation  may  be  illuminated  if  I  hand  in  a  pam- 
phlet called  "The  Two  Years  of  British  Atrocities  in  Ireland."  That 
is  the  pamphlet  compiled  by  the  Sinn  Feiners  giving  the  numbers 
of  civilians  killed  in  Ireland  before  a  single  policeman  was  killed 


149 

in  Ireland.  In  1910  no  policeman  was  killed  in  Ireland.  Ab  I 
understand  it,  in  1917-1918  there  were  about  a  dozen  murder- 
charged  to  the  police  and  about  twenty  thousand  raids,  a  number 
of  wrhich  are  detailed  here,  the  suppression  of  newspapers,  and  so 
forth,  all  of  which  you  have  heard  described. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  All  of  this,  as  T  understand  it.  was  before 
the  killing  of  any  police  officer? 

A.  \es.  sir,  previous  to  the  killing  of  any  police.  Then  :he 
killing  of  police  began.  Sometimes  they  have  been  ambushed  and 
killed.  On  one  occasion  a  policeman  was  killed  going  into  chapel 
to  mass.  On  another  occasion  a  policeman  has  been  killed  on  patrol 
formation.  On  one  occasion  a  patrol  came  into  contact  with  a 
small  group  of  armed  Sinn  Feiners.  They  fired,  and  fell  back  into 
a  ditch,  and  the  young  Sinn  Feiners  returned  the  fire.  These  police- 
men were  killed  fighting.  Some  policemen  have  resigned  from  the 
force  and  then  been  killed.  One  was  killed  at  Oranmore  in  Sep- 
tember after  he  had  resigned. 

Q.  Is  it  the  intimation  that  the  police  officer  who  resigns  and  is 
killed  is  killed  by  the  British  authorities,  or  by  the  Sinn  Feiners? 

A.  That  i*  rather  interesting.  I  have  never  heard  that  imputa- 
tion until  today.  But  I  can  give  the  case  specifically  where  Black- 
and-Tans  have  called  at  the  home  of  a  man  who  has  resigned  and 
have  brought  him  out  of  his  home  and  flogged  him  mercilessly.  So 
that  that  explanation  seems  to  me  to  be  plausible.  On  the  other 
hand,  I  heard  of  this  case,  where  the  policeman  wa*  killed  by  mis- 
take. 

So  I  went  to  the  Sinn  Feiners  and  said:  "Why  are  these  police 
killed?  Why  was  Allan  Bell  killed  in  Dublin,  that  old  magis- 
trate?" Certain  Sinn  Feiners  said:  "Oh,  it  is  all  done  by  impetuous 
young  people."  But  as  I  got  down  into  contact  with  responsible 
men,  they  said, — many  of  them  said:  "This  killing  of  policemen  is 
a  necessary  act  of  justice.  As  far  as  we  know,  no  policeman  has 
been  killed  who  has  not  been  tried.  If  a  policeman  commits  mur- 
der or  something  similar  to  murder,  he  is  given  a  trial  without  him- 
self being  present,  and  he  is  punished."  I  asked  for  instances,  and 
I  was  given  the  instance  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain.'  I  was  told  by 
several  Sinn  Feiners — it  may  be  folklore  but  I  give  it  for  what  it 
is  worth — I  was  told  by  responsible  men  that  the  policemen  who 
killed  or  carried  out  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were 
numbered;  that  one  was  killed  on  his  way  into  a  chapel  in  Cork,  ami 
three  more  had  been  killed  around  Cork;  and  that  another  remained 
to  be  killed,  and  that  his  name  was  Swanzy,  and  that  he  had  left 


150 

Cork  to  go  to  Lisburn;  and  a  few  weeks  later  policeman  Swanzy 
was  killed  as  he  was  going  out  of  church  in  Lisburn.  And  in  re- 
taliation the  Orangemen  of  Lisburn  set  fire  to  the  Catholic  section 
and  did  damage  to  the  extent  of  two  or  three  hundred  thousand 
dollars.     That  I  give  you  as  an  instance  of  a  police  murder. 

Q.  The  Sinn  Feiners  declare  that  they  had  a  trial  and  heard 
testimony  and  were  satisfied  that  these  police  had  committed  the 
murder  of  Mayor  MacCurtain,  and  that  they  had  pronounced  the 
death  sentence  against  them? 

A.  Exactly.  I  went  to  see  a  very  splendid  young  man  whom  I 
would  not  wish  to  identify  because  it  would  be  dangerous  for  him, 
but  a  man  in  a  very  responsible  public  position,  and  I  asked  him 
about  the  killing  of  police.  I  asked  him,  "Why  did  they  kill  Wilson 
in  Wexford?"  And  he  said,  "That  man  was  a  proper  ruffian,"  and 
he  gave  me  a  number  of  instances  of  things  that  this  man  had  done 
which  seemed  criminal  and  brutal  in  his  life.  And  I  said,  "Do  you 
know  any  other  instances  of  men  like  that  who  have  been  killed?" 
And  he  said,  "Most  of  the  men  who  have  been  killed  have  been 
guilty  of  murder."  And  I  said,  "Do  you  know  of  any  other  instances 
in  your  district?"  And  he  said,  "A  young  man  works  for  me,  and 
he  said  the  other  day  when  he  came  in,  T  have  seen  the  policeman 
in  town  who  killed  my  brother,  and  I  am  going  to  kill  him.'  "  And 
his  employer  said:  "You  are  a  member  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  and 
you  mean  to  say  that  you  are  going  to  take  the  law  into  your  own 
hands?  You  know  the  proper  course  to  pursue.  If  you  have  any 
charge  to  make  against  that  policeman,  you  know  where  to  send  it 
and  you  know  what  action  will  be  taken."  He  prevailed  upon  the 
young  man  to  get  out  of  the  way  of  the  police;  and  the  police  got 
wind  of  the  fact  that  this  particular  policeman  was  identified,  and 
he  left  town.  By  these  instances  you  get  a  practical  illustration  of 
the  fact  that  the  men  who  have  tried  to  break  down  the  will  of  Sinn 
Fein,  to  break  clown  the  will  of  the  Irish  as  expressed  in  two  elec- 
tions, have  not  succeeded.  And  you  inevitably  get  a  clash  between 
these  men  and  the  Sinn  Feiners — the  Irish  Volunteers. 

BRITISH  "LAW  AND  ORDER"  IN  IRELAND 

The  English  policy  in  this  question  is  very  important.  The  Eng- 
lish maintain  that  they  are  holding  up  law  and  order  in  Ireland. 
They  maintain  that  all  these  instances  that  you  have  heard  about  in 
the  last  two  days  are  instances  to  be  explained  by  rational  proc- 
esses, and  that  they  stand  for  law  and  order.     The  results  of  my 


151 

investigation  are  this:  the  English  maintain  that  they  are  standing 
for  law  and  order,  and  that  the  Sinn  Feiners  are  a  band  of  extrem- 
ists; but  at  the  same  time  they  are  pursuing  a  policy  of  provocation 
and  assassinations  and  murders,  and  make  no  effort  whatever  to 
bring  to  book  those  members  of  their  organization  who  commit 
murders  and  assassinations,  and  are  making  every  effort  to  throw 
the  onus  of  disorder  and  lawlessness  on  Sinn  Fein;  that  Sinn  Fein, 
on  the  other  hand,  wishes  to  have  peace  in  Ireland,  to  have  their 
own  government  perfected,  but  are  constantly  running  into  the  law- 
lessness and  oppression  of  the  old  police,  the  Black-and-Tans,  and 
the  military  in  Ireland. 

And  I  would  like,  if  I  may,  in  relation  to  this  to  show  the  sequel 
to  the  Balbriggan  affair  as  brought  out  today.  I  made  no  investiga- 
tion in  Balbriggan  myself.  I  made  an  investigation  in  Gal  way  and 
Dublin.  But  the  sequel  in  Balbriggan  is  this:  I  wish  to  quote  Sir 
Hamar  Greenwood,  the  British  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland,  on  the 
subject  of  Balbriggan  and  the  inquiry  into  Balbriggan.  There  was 
an  effort  made  to  get  the  House  of  Commons  at  the  end  of  October, 
two  weeks  ago — no.  I  guess  about  three  weeks  ago, — to  appoint  a 
commission  to  investigate  and  find  out  what  actually  happened  at 
Balbriggan.  And  the  House  of  Commons  voted  to  refuse  this  move. 
They  declined  to  appoint  a  commission  to  investigate.  But  the 
phrases  that  illumine  the  state  of  mind  of  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood 
are  important.  He  said :  "I  admit  that  nineteen  houses  were  de- 
stroyed and  others  damaged;  that  four  public  houses  were  destroyed, 
and  one  hosiery  factory  that  employs  two  hundred  hands  was  also 
destroyed.  I  admit  it  is  difficult  to  defend  the  destruction  of  that 
factory."  And  he  was  asked  if  two  men  were  not  also  killed.  He 
said:  "Two  men  were  also  killed."  And  Sir  Arthur  Balfour  said: 
"Murder!"  And  he  said:  "If  the  right  honorable  gentleman  gets 
any  satisfaction  out  of  it,  I  would  say,  murder."  He  admitted  that 
the  murder  was  not  the  act  of  irresponsible  men,  that  it  was  organ- 
ized ;  that  it  was  the  work  of  men  who  went  from  a  barrack  seven 
miles  away;  and  he  said:  "I  have  myself  made  an  inquiry  into  this 
case,  and  I  will  tell  the  House  what  I  have  found:  that  some  hun- 
dred to  one  hundred  fifty  men  went  to  Balbriggan  to  avenge  the 
murder  of  a  comrade  murdered  in  cold  blood;  and  I  find  that  it  is 
impossible  out  of  those  one  hundred  fifty  men  to  find  out  who  did 
the  deed,  who  did  the  burning;  and  I  have  had  the  most  careful  pos- 
sible investigation  made."  In  other  words,  the  British  Government 
is   confronted   with   a  situation  not  dissimilar   to   that   which   con- 


152 

fronted  President  Roosevelt  at  Brownsville.  But  where  President 
Roosevelt  took  the  regiment  who  were  there  and  investigated  and 
carried  out  the  results  of  this  investigation,  the  British  Government 
says:  We  know  the  regiment  that  went  there,  and  we  know  that  they 
burned  down  nineteen  houses  and  killed  two  men,  and  all  this;  but 
we  are  not  able  to  push  it  further.  Therefore,  nothing  will  be  done 
about  what  was  done  at  Balbriggan. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Who  is  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood? 

A.  He  is  that  member  of  the  British  Cabinet  responsible  for  Ire- 
land.    He  is  the  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland. 

Q.  And  this  was  the  speech  he  made  in  the  House  of  Commons 
when  a  motion  was  made  to  have  an  investigation  made  of  Bal- 
briggan ? 

GOVERNMENT  SUPPRESSES  TRUTH  ABOUT  BURN- 
INGS OF  CREAMERIES 

A.  Exactly.  And  my  object  in  bringing  that  up  is  this:  that 
while  nominally  England  stands  for  law  and  order  in  Ireland,  they 
are  really  out  to  crush  what  they  think  is  revolution ;  and  when  they 
run  into  something  that  they  think  does  not  fit  into  the  categories 
of  democratic  government  and  decency,  they  simply  say  that  they 
are  powerless,  and  decline  to  carry  out  an  investigation, — such  an 
investigation  as  would  be  carried  out  in  any  other  civilized  country 
where  there  was  an  established  government.  Thirty  creameries  have 
been  burned  down,  and  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  was  confronted  with 
the  evidence  of  the  burning  down  of  these  creameries;  that  uniformed 
men  have  gone  out  in  lorries;  that  they  have  been  seen;  and  they 
have  burned  down  the  creameries.  And  he  is  unable  to  act  because 
he  has  seen  no  evidence:  "I  have  never  seen  a  tittle  of  evidence  to 
prove  that  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  have  destroyed  creameries." 
Well,  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  and  Mr.  George  Russell  have  tried  to  put 
evidence  in  his  hands  that  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  have  de- 
stroyed creameries.  I  think  it  would  make  it  clear  if  I  might  read 
a  letter  written  by  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  on  the  twenty-sixth  of 
October:  "Both  Houses  of  Parliament  and  the  public  have  been 
completely  misled  as  to  the  destruction  of  creameries  and  other 
property  of  cooperative  societies  in  Ireland,  and  in  all  seriousness 
I  am  compelled  to  charge  the  Government  with  suppression  of  the 
truth.  During  the  past  six  months  a  correspondence  upon  this 
subject  has  been  carried  on  between  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organ- 
ization Society  and  myself,  as  its  President,  on  the  one  hand,  and 
the  civil  government  and  the  military  authority  in  Ireland  on  the 


153 

other.  On  Wednesday  last,  in  the  reprisals  debate  in  the  Com- 
mons, Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  selected  out  of  this  mass  of  letters  a 
single  extract  from  a  letter  of  his  own  to  me.  In  this  extract  he 
deplored  and  condemned  'these  outrages,'  promised  to  try  and 
prevent  them,  and  to  punish  those  responsible.  He  adverted  to 
'the  outstanding  difficulty  .  .  .  that  the  sufferers  have  been 
unable  or  unwilling  to  come  forward  with  evidence,'  and  invited  me 
to  provide  it.  He  then  told  the  House  that  he  had  'never  seen  a 
tittle  of  evidence  to  prove  that  the  servants  of  the  Crown  had  de- 
stroyed these  creameries.'  This  morning  I  was  told  by  a  distin- 
guished member  of  the  House  of  Lords  that  Lord  Curzon  had  on 
the  same  day  made  an  identical  statement — of  course,  from  the 
material  supplied  to  him.'  He  quoted  the  same  extract  from  the 
official  correspondence,  and  then  gave  it  as  'a  curious  corroboration' 
of  the  innocence  of  the  servants  of  the  Crown  that  I  had  failed  to 
supply  'evidence  of  any  sort.' 

"Space  forbids  the  production  in  your  columns  of  the  evidence 
in  the  possession  of  the  Government,  partly  from  the  records  of  their 
own  courts,  partly  furnished  by  us.  It  will  suffice  here  to  say  that 
the  unfortunate  victims  of  these  outrages  have  only  one  means  of 
proving  their  loss.  They  have  to  bring  suit  under  the  Malicious 
Injuries  Acts  before  the  County  Court  Judge  at  Quarter  Sessions. 
If  the  judge  is  satisfied  that  the  injury  is  malicious,  even  if  it  is 
proved  beyond  all  possibility  of  doubt,  as  it  was  in  a  trial  which  I 
personally  attended,  that  servants  of  the  Crown  destroyed  the  prop- 
erty, he  has  to  charge  the  amount  of  compensation  awarded  (in 
this  case  £12,349)  on  the  rates.  In  other  words,  the  victims  of  the 
outrages,  and  other  innocent  persons,  have  to  pay  for  damage  in- 
flicted upon  the  community  by  the  guardians  of  the  law. 

"Everybody  in  Ireland  knows,  and  the  Government  knows,  that 
these  acts  are  deliberate  reprisals  by  servants  of  the  Crown.  Unless 
discipline  has  hopelessly  broken  down,  the  Government  could 
easily  identify  the  criminals.  It  is  scandalous  that  for  lack  of  this 
identification  such  a  crying  injustice  should  go  unredressed.  We 
have  asked  for  an  open  and  impartial  inquiry  in  Dublin,  where 
witnesses  can  be  protected.  To  say  that  this  would  be  a  mere  con- 
flict of  perjury  is  untrue  as  regards  the  evidence  we  are  ready  to 
produce,  and  is  not  complimentary  to  the  peace  officers  of  the  Gov- 
ernment. Redress  in  this  case  is  urgently  demanded  far  more  on 
account  of  the  position  and  influence  of  the  agricultural  cooperative 
movement  in  Ireland  than  for  the  direct  and  indirect  restriction  in 
food  production,  which  is  no  light  matter.  As  I  write,  a  telegram 
reaches  me  reporting  the  burning  of  vet  another  oreamerv." 


154 

The  Witness:  I  would  like  to  leave  this  letter  to  show  the  situation 
they  are  in  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Just  give  us  that  citation,  please. 

A.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  writing  to  the  London  Times,  printed 
on  the  twenty-sixth  of  October  of  this  year.  There  is  an  editorial 
on  the  same  subject  in  this  issue  of  The  Irish  Homestead,  which 
reprints  the  letter,  by  George  W.  Russell. 

PERVERSION  OF   BRITISH  JUSTICE 

There  is  evidence  that  there  is  justice  going  on  in  Ireland  from 
the  Irish  side.  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  himself  said  that  courts  are 
going  on  in  Ireland  conducted  by  the  Irish  people.  Not  so  much 
can  be  said  for  the  Government  courts  in  Ireland,  even  where  they 
have  not  been  superseded  by  courts  martial.  In  the  north  of  Ire- 
land, a  man  found  with  a  revolver  is  fined  two-and-six-pence  or 
three  shillings.  But  in  the  south  of  Ireland  I  have  found  no  case 
where  a  man  found  with  arms  is  given  less  than  two  years'  im- 
prisonment.1 

ELECTIONS  PROVE  LARGE  MAJORITY   SUPPORTS 
SINN  FEIN  GOVERNMENT 

Worse  than  the  assertion  that  the  courts-martial  have  the  full 
confidence  of  the  Irish  people  are  the  constant  assertions  that  the 
British  Government  is  working  in  Ireland  in  the  interests  of  the 
whole  people.  I  would  like  to  give  you  the  analysis  of  the  vote 
in  1918  and  in  1920  to  bring  out  the  point  whether  the  de  facto 
government  of  Sinn  Fein  has  the  confidence  of  the  people  or  has 
not.  I  think  this  material  is  absolutely  trustworthy  and  very  closely 
analyzed.  It  shows  that  the  Sinn  Fein  party  secured  nearly  75  per 
cent,  of  the  seats  on  the  county  councils  at  the  last  election. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  election  is  this? 

A.  June,  1920.  The  total  number  of  county  council  seats  in 
Ireland  is  given  as  699.  Of  those  county  council  seats,  Sinn  Fein 
secured  71.9  per  cent.;  Sinn  Fein  and  Labor,  who  work  together, 
secured  between  them  80  per  cent.  Putting  in  with  them  the  Ulster 
Nationalists,  who  can  be  put  in  as  believing  in  self-government  for 
Ireland,  the  number  of  seats  won  is  84  per  cent.2     Of  course  that 


1  The   death  penalty   may   now   be   imposed   for   possession   of   arms   or 
ammunition. 

2  Of  the  699  seats,  612  were  won  by  candidates  opposed  to  union  with 
England,  and  87  seats  were  won  by  Unionists. 


155 

is  not  unanimity-  I  personally  found  no  unanimity  in  Ireland  on 
the  subject  of  Sinn  Fein.  But  what  I  did  find  was  this:  that  all 
the  class  of  Unionists  in  the  south  of  Ireland  that  were  descended 
from  the  landlord  class,  and  who,  until  the  question  of  landlordism 
had  been  settled  in  favor  of  peasant  proprietorship,  had  been  all 
dead  against  independence,  I  found  that  these  men  were  now  all 
in  favor  of  home  rule.  In  the  Irish  Times  for  September,  a  con- 
servative paper.  I  found  at  least  two  hundred  letters  from  very 
conservative  gentlemen  saying  that  independence  was  the  only  way 
out.  If  you  desire,  I  can  get  a  collection  of  those  letters,  because 
it  seems  to  me  that  they  are  real  evidence  of  opinion  in  the  south 
of  Ireland.  Those  gentry  constitute  the  magistrates  and  the  upper 
class,  so  to  speak.  The  great  majority  of  these  people  have  resigned 
from  their  offices,  men  like  Sir  Henry  Grattan  Bellew,  Sir  Algernon 
Coote,  Sir  Thomas  Stafford,  and  other  men,  a  list  of  whom  I  can 
give  you.  These  men  are  all  deputy  lieutenants.  These  men  all 
resigned  while  I  was  in  Ireland.  And  when  I  was  in  Dublin,  there 
was  a  conference  of  six  hundred  men  and  women  of  this  particular 
class  of  Unionist  persuasion  who  came  together  to  plead  for  do- 
minion home  rule.  Lord  Shaftesbury,  a  prominent  Ulsterman,  also 
pleads  for  dominion  home  rule. 

Q.     And  until  recently  these  men  were  all  against  it? 

A.  While  these  men  were  all  landlords,  their  interests  were  all 
against  home  rule.  But  now,  since  they  have  settled  down  in  Ire- 
land, their  interests  are  with  the  people.  Many  of  them  have  said 
to  me  they  had  just  as  soon  have  Sinn  Fein  government  as  not. 
Many  of  them  go  to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts.  A  big  merchant  in  Cork, 
called  J.  C.  Dowdall,  who  had  just  come  back  from  a  delegation 
that  had  gone  to  Lloyd  George — 

Q.     What  nationality? 

A.  A  Cork  Protestant  Irishman.  He  told  me  that  a  relative  of 
his  had  for  months  tried  to  get  a  land  settlement  from  the  British 
Government  and  had  failed;  and  in  a  few  weeks  he  got  the  whole 
question  settled  by  the  Sinn  Fein  courts.  Many  of  them  have  gone 
to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts  to  get  them  justice,  and  in  many  cases  the 
courts  have  leaned  backwards  to  give  them  justice. 

Here  is  a  list  of  county  councils  and  urban  councils  and  other 
bodies  that  have  declared  their  allegiance  not  to  Britain,  but  to 
Dail  Eireann.  And  I  will  put  in  here  the  analysis  of  the  vote  in 
1918,  the  object  of  which  is  to  show  that  Sinn  Fein  is  not  a  small 
body  of  extremists,  but  is  80  per  cent,  of  the  people  of  Ireland, 
who  have  so  declared  themselves  in  the  election  of  1918,  and  have 
reiterated  that  decision  in  the  elections  of  1920. 


156 

Q.  What  per  cent,  of  the  county  councils  have  renounced  alle- 
giance to  the  British  Government  and  are  now  doing  business  with 
the  Sinn  Fein  government? 

A.     I  think  all  the  county  councils  outside  Ulster. 

Q.     How  many  is  that? 

A.  There  are  thirty-two  altogether,1  and  outside  of  Ulster  I 
think  that  twenty-six  have  submitted  themselves  totally  to  the  Sinn 
Fein  government. 

Q.  Of  the  total  number  of  town  councils  and  urban  councils  and 
county  councils,  and  all  the  bodies  chosen  by  the  people  to  manage 
their  affairs,  how  many  now  recognize  British  authority? 

A.  I  think  that  outside  the  six  or  four  counties  in  the  northwest 
of  Ulster  there  are  practically  no  public  bodies  in  the  south  of 
Ireland  that  recognize  the  British  Government.  But  there  are  mi- 
nority representatives  who  believe  in  the  British  Government  on  a 
great  many  of  these  bodies — men  of  property  who  still  believe  that 
the  Sinn  Fein  policy  is  not  desirable. 

I  do  not  seem  to  have  succeeded  anywhere  in  giving  evidence  on 
military  rule,  and  I  would  like  very  much  to  go  ahead  on  whatever 
lines  you  would  suggest. 

ALLEGED    RELIGIOUS    DIFFERENCES    PRIMARILY 
ECONOMIC  AND  POLITICAL 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  have  been  in  the  north  of 
Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  industries  there?  In  other 
words,  in  the  north  of  Ireland  there  are  great  textile  industries. 
Have  you  investigated  anything  among  the  workers  there — what  the 
standard  of  living  is,  under  what  conditions  the  women  work,  and 
are  there  any  labor  unions  there,  and  what  influence  is  brought  to 
bear  by  the  large  employers  upon  these  workers  to  keep  them  di- 
vided on  religious  prejudices  and  to  keep  them  from  organizing 
into  industrial  organizations?  Do  you  know  anything  about  any 
of  these  questions? 

A.  I  think  I  know  something.  Yes,  I  went  in  Belfast  to  one  of 
the  factories,  and  had  a  long  talk  with  the  employer,  and  I  have 


1  While  there  are  32  counties  in  Ireland,  there  are  33  county  councils, 
Tipperary  being  divided  into  North  and  South  constituencies.  Of  the  nine 
counties  in  Ulster,  only  four  (Antrim,  Armagh,  Derry,  and  Down)  elected 
a  majority  of  Unionist  councillors.  None  of  the  24  county  councils  outside 
of  Ulster  went  Unionist.  In  fact,  of  the  510  seats  on  these  councils,  only 
three  were  won  bv  Unionists, 


157 

studied  to  a  certain  extent  government  reports  on  the  condition 
of  industries  in  Belfast.  I  think  it  is  generally  admitted  that  the 
standard  of  wages  in  Belfast  is  especially  low,  because  in  house- 
holds the  men  usually  work  in  the  shipyards  and  in  higher  branches 
of  the  textile  industry,  and  the  women  work  in  very  low  occupa- 
tions: and  the  Belfast  employer  looks  upon  the  joint  wage  in  appor- 
tioning wages.  L  p  to  a  very  few  years  ago,  the  women  employed 
in  Belfast  seldom  wore  boots.  There  are  very  many  bad  factories. 
There  are  also  some  good  factories.  But  the  trade-union  situation 
is  very  complicated,  because  the  lower  wages  are  usually  paid  t<» 
the  Catholic  workers,  and  when  the  Catholic  worker  becomes  a 
foreman,  any  non-Catholic  worker  who  wishes  to  raise  the  religious 
issue  can  raise  it  and  make  it  impossible  for  the  Catholic  workman 
to  be  regarded  as  a  union  man.  And  that  has  been  constantly  done 
with  British  unions.  A  very  serious  situation  was  created  in  July 
when  the  Protestant  workers  drove  out  a  number  of  Catholic  work- 
ers up  to  five  thousand,  and  not  only  drove  them  out,  but  burned 
their  homes;  and  in  a  very  short  time  fifty-six  people  were  killed 
on  the  streets  of  Belfast. 

Q.     How  long  ago  was  that? 

A.  That  was  in  July  and  August  of  this  year.  I  think  my  wife 
will  tell  you  more  on  the  labor  aspect.  There  is  no  doubt  that  the 
religious  issue  has  been  kept  alive  by  the  employers  to  keep  trade 
unionism  from  growing  in  Belfast.  It  has  been  a  red  herring  across 
the  trail  of  the  labor  situation,  and  constantly  labor  organizers  like 
James  Connolly,  who  worked  in  Belfast,  have  been  up  against  this 
situation.  It  is  kept  alive  continually  by  the  newspapers  and  the 
sermons.  I  think  there  are  more  political  sermons  in  Belfast  than 
anywhere  else  in  the  world.  Practically  all  the  sermons  in  Belfast 
are  political  sermons.  And  that  is  a  very  bad  situation  for  the 
workers. 

Q.      Belfast  is  not  very  well   organized? 

A.  Belfast  is  not  very  well  organized.  The  Transport  Workers 
are  the  strongest  union  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Are  they  in  Belfast? 

A.  I  do  not  think  they  are  in  Belfast.  I  am  not  well  informed 
on  that  point.  But  wages  in  Belfast  are  very  low  in  comparison 
to  similar  wages  in  England. 

Q.     And  what  are  housing  conditions  among  the  workers? 

A.  The  housing  conditions  are  good  because  ground  rents  are 
very,  very  low,  and  they  have  built  a  vast  number  of  one-story 
houses.  There  is  no  congestion.  It  is  a  new  city  which  has  been 
built  up  in  small  houses,  so  that  there  is  no  slum  problem  as  there 


158 

is  in  Dublin,  where  twenty  thousand  families  live  in  single  rooms — 
one-third  of  the  population  of  Dublin  live  in  twenty  thousand 
rooms!  Sometimes  families  of  ten  or  twelve  people  live  in  one 
room. 

Q.     And  what  is  the  standard  of  living  in  Belfast? 

A.  The  standard  of  living  is  fairly  low,  considering  the  good 
housing.  I  think  it  is  a  squalid  city.  It  is  like  some  of  the  Cana- 
dian towns,  I  would  say;  it  is  in  a  state  of  early  capitalism. 

Q.     What  is  the  general  morale  of  the  place? 

A.  The  Belfast  Chamber  of  Commerce  is  one  of  the  most  reac- 
tionary bodies  whose  pronouncements  I  have  ever  read.  The  Dub- 
lin Chamber  of  Commerce  is  very  much  better.  Although  in  regard 
to  labor,  I  must  say  that  the  Dublin  Chamber  of  Commerce  showed 
up  very  badly  when  I  was  home.  In  relation  to  that  may  I  say  this: 
although  there  is  a  very  bad  situation  in  regard  to  the  social  struggle 
in  Ireland,  still  Irish  labor  outside  of  Belfast  is  all  for  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.     In  Belfast  what  is  the  situation? 

A.  In  Belfast  labor  is  opposed.  Of  course  you  have  to  take 
Catholic  labor  and  Protestant  labor  separately.  In  the  British 
House  of  Commons  there  is  a  member,  Mr.  Joseph  Devlin,  elected 
by  labor  as  a  Labor  representative.  He,  of  course,  has  stood  for 
Irish  independence.  There  is  a  gradual  tendency  on  the  part  of 
Labor  to  get  together.  The  whole  fight  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  and 
his  group  is  to  keep  the  religious  question   elevated. 

When  the  question  came  up  in  regard  to  what  part  of  Ulster  is  to 
be  excluded  from  the  Home  Rule  Bill,  they  did  not  put  in  the  three 
counties  of  Ulster  that  had  a  majority  of  Catholics,  or  the  four 
manufacturing  counties  where  labor  might  get  together,  but  rather 
the  two  agricultural  counties  where  there  might  be  enough  farmers 
who  had  an  interest  against  labor,  to  go  into  the  Ulster  Parliament. 

Q.  After  all,  the  religious  differences  in  Ireland  are  primarily 
political  and  economic? 

A.  I  think  the  religious  differences  in  Ireland  are  clearly  politi- 
cal and  economic,  and  that  the  theological  basis  is  practically  nil. 

Commissioner  Maurer:   That  is  what  I   think. 

The  Witness:  I  do  not  think  that  those  who  conduct  the  religious 
agitation  in  Belfast  do  know  very  much  about  the  theology  of  Rome, 
or  care  very  much.  But  they  must  have  a  difference,  and  if  they 
did  not  have  this  difference,  they  would  have  a  difference  on 
whether  people  were  brachycephalic  or  dolichocephalic. 

Q.  What  is  the  religious  situation  between  the  Protestants  and 
Sinn  Feiners? 

A.     There  is  practically  no   difference.     The  two  have  merged 


159 

when  the  question  was  taken  out  of  the  control  of  special  interests. 
Some  of  the  most  prominent  men  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  are 
Protestants.  There  is  Lieutenant-Commander  Erskine  Childers. 
Robert  Barton,  who  is  also  a  Protestant,  is  a  member  of  the  Sinn 
Fein  cabinet.  I  stayed  in  Dublin  with  a  prominent  Protestant  who 
is  also  a  Sinn  Feiner.  I  met  Dr.  Kathleen  Lynn,  who  is  also  a 
Protestant,  who  had  been  sentenced  to  death  in  connection  with  tin' 
1916  uprising;  and  I  think  several  women  who  were  with  her  were 
also  Protestants.  1  met  many  Protestants  who  were  prominent  in 
Sinn  Fein.  There  is  no  active  religious  feeling  in  the  south  of 
Ireland.  In  my  section  of  the  county  the  Catholics  are  95  per  cent.. 
and  they  elected  a  man  as  chairman  of  the  county  council  who  was 
a  Protestant.  Among  the  Catholic  bishops,  among  the  hierarchy, 
there  is  a  great  difference  of  opinion  upon  politics,  just  the  same 
difference  of  opinion  you  would  find  among  any  group  of  men 
anywhere.  That  is  to  say,  I  think  Catholic  traders  would  show  as 
many  people  against  any  change  in  government  and  against  Sinn 
Fein  as  would  Protestants.  That  is  to  say,  I  think  the  attitude 
follows  economic  lines  rather  than  religious. 

THE  ATTITUDE  OF  IRISH  LABOR 

One  piece  of  evidence  in  regard  to  labor.  There  was  a  conven- 
tion of  the  Irish  Labor  Party  in  Cork  about  the  first  of  August, 
and  the  conclusion  of  that  convention  was  as  follows: 

"We  are  fully  aware  of  the  gravity  of  the  issues  involved  in  this 
conflict.  We  are  challenging  not  only  the  right  of  an  imperial 
power  to  subjugate  a  small  nation  by  armed  force,  but  we  are  also 
challenging  the  generally  accepted  conception  of  the  relations  be- 
tween employer  and  employed.  Railway  companies,  backed  by  the 
Government,  contend  that  the  workman's  duty  is  simply  to  obey 
orders,  to  carry  any  materials  that  may  be  handed  to  him,  irrespec- 
tive of  the  use  to  which  these  materials  may  be  put — in  other  words, 
that  the  workman  is  part  of  a  system,  of  a  piece  of  machinery;  he 
is  not  a  responsible  agent.  The  worker's  contention,  on  the  other 
hand,  is  that  when  he  knows  that  he  is  being  used  for  a  purpose 
against  which  his  soul  revolts,  he  would  be  violating  his  conscience 
if  he  were  to  agree  to  be  so  used.  This  contention  involves  a  claim 
that  the  workman  is  a  responsible  human  being — not  a  cog  in  a 
machine;  that  he  is  a  conscious  cooperator  in  the  work  in  which 
he  is  engaged,  and  has  a  right  to  decide  whether  or  not  he  will 
participate  in  the  work  according  to  whether  its  purpose  is  worthy 
or  degrading.     Such  a  conception  of  industrial  relations  is  doubtless 


160 

revolutionary,  but  it  is  the   conception   which   shall   prevail   in   the 
Irish  Commonwealth  of  the  future." 

This  had  to  do  with  the  refusal  of  the  Transport  Workers  to 
handle  munitions,  and  with  the  refusal  of  the  railway  firemen  and 
engineers  to  run  trains  that  were  carrying  soldiers  on  military 
expeditions  in  Ireland.  The  Government,  which  now  has  control 
of  the  railroads,  is  now  determining  to  close  down  railroad  traffic 
in  Ireland  and  to  prohibit  motor  traffic  more  than  twenty  miles  from 
the  home  of  the  owner  of  the  motor.  This,  of  course,  applies  only 
to  civilians.  The  situation  that  is  being  brought  about  in  Ireland 
is  that  of  a  blockade.  That  situation  labor  has  tried  to  keep  off. 
Labor  also  called  a  two  days'  general  strike  on  account  of  the 
hunger  strikers  in  Mountjoy  prison.  They  were  successful  in  that 
strike  in  showing  where  labor's  sympathies  were.  The  Government 
would  like  decidedly  to  close  down  the  railroads  on  account  of  the 
munitions  situation.  It  is  probable  that  Ireland  will  be  deprived 
of  railroads  within  the  next  two  weeks.  It  has  already  been  de- 
prived of  freedom  of  the  press. 

IRISH     ENDURANCE     PITTED     AGAINST     ENGLISH 
TERRORISM 

The  situation  is  rapidly  coming  to  a  climax  between  this  great 
nation  and  this  small  people:  the  efforts  of  England  to  keep  up  the 
illusion  that  it  is  standing  for  law  and  order  in  Ireland  while  it  is 
working  to  break  down  the  morale  of  the  people  of  Ireland  by  the 
destruction  of  homes,  the  burning  of  factories  and  creameries,  the 
cutting  off  of  railroads,  and  the  killing  of  prisoners,  before  the 
world  gets  to  learn  the  truth  about  these  conditions  and  thus  be 
delivered  from  the  illusion  that  law  and  order  is  being  maintained. 
So  you  have  a  race  between  the  patience  and  endurance  of  the  peo- 
ple of  Ireland  and  the  government  of  Lloyd  George  and  Sir  Hamar 
Greenwood — a  government  which  denies  responsibility  for  the  acts 
of  its  agents,  so  that  you  have  men  executed  in  the  way  that  Lynch 
was  executed,  and  men  who  are  brought  out  of  their  homes  and 
shot  without  trial  or  warrant.  Of  course,  one  of  the  strong  cards 
that  England  has  is  the  killing  of  police.  Sinn  Fein  says,  on  the 
other  hand:  While  we  have  killed  police,  we  have  been  compelled 
to  do  so  in  order  to  keep  the  struggle  of  Sinn  Fein  going.  And 
even  though  many  of  our  young  volunteers  are  arrested  and  taken 
to  barracks  and  killed,  and  then  announced  as  killed  while  trying 
to  escape;  even  though  our  people  are  terrorized  and  our  homes 
destroyed:  and  even  though  sixty-five  out  of  the  seventy-three  mem- 


loi 

bers  of  the  Sinn  Fein  parliament  have  served  prison  sentences,  yet 
there  is  no  chance  of  the  morale  of  the  Irish  people  being  broken 
down. 

Q.     Where  were  these  members  of  Parliament  imprisoned? 

A.  I  will  give  von  the  list,  showing  the  prison  and  the  time 
served  by  these  men.' 

REPRISALS  OFTEN  WITHOUT  JUSTIFICATION 

I  wish  to  make  two  things  clear  from  my  own  investigations.  In 
many  cases  there  are  no  reasons  whatever  for  reprisals.  In  other 
cases,  there  are  mistakes  made,  like  the  burning  of  that  English 
factory  in  Balbriggan.  I  was  in  Gal  way  a  week  after  that  young 
Black-and-Tan  brought  his  revolver  out  and  began  shooting  wildly 
at  the  people  on  the  station  platform,  and  I  want  to  suggest  to 
Mr.  MacDonald  that  if  Father  Griffin  of  Galway  be  asked  to  testify 
here,  he  has  all  the  facts  in  that  case  as  has  no  other  man.  Father 
Griffin   was  kidnapped   by    Black-and-Tans    last   week,    and    nothing 


1  The  witness  submitted  in  evidence  the  official  Irish  Bulletin,  Vol.  2, 
Xo.  72  (13  August,  1920)  :  "In  the  general  election  of  December,  1918, 
68  of  the  Parliamentary  candidates  of  the  Republican  Party  in  Ireland 
were  elected,  several  of  them  for  two  constituencies.  Some  of  the  recent 
experiences  of  these  publicly  elected  representatives  are  given  in  the  fol- 
lowing pages.     They  are  probably  without  a  parallel  in  Europe. 

Twelve  of  these  representatives  have  been  sentenced  to  death. 

Twenty-one  of  these  representatives  have  been  sentenced  to  penal  servi- 
tude for  life,  or  for  terms  of  twenty,  ten,  five  or  three  years. 

Thirty-seven  of  these  representatives  have  been  arrested  without  charge 
and  imprisoned  or  deported  without  trial,  the  majority  of  them  being  kept 
in  prison  for  ten  months  and  then  released  without  explanation  or  apology. 

Sixty-five  of  these  representatives  have  been  imprisoned  in  English  or 
Irish  prisons,  either  without  charge  or  trial  or  for  political  offenses.  Many 
have  been  imprisoned  more  than  twice,  some  have  been  imprisoned  five 
times.  Efforts  were  made  to  arrest  one  of  the  three  who  were  not  im- 
prisoned. 

Only  two  of  the  sixty -eight  representatives  were  not  at  some  time  either 
arrested  or  "wanted  by  the  police." 

Eighteen  are  now  hiding  from  arrest  in  Ireland,  America,  France,  and 
Italy. 

This  persecution  of  Irish  Members  of  Parliament  has  continued  without 
cessation  since  May,  1916.  A  constant  passing  in  and  out  of  English 
prisons  has  been  the  common  experience  of  representative  Irishmen  for  the 
past  four  years.  It  continues  to  the  present  moment  to  be  their  experience. 
On  August  12th — the  day  prior  to  the  issue  of  this  Bulletin— Mr.  T.  Mac- 
Swiney,  Member  for  Mid.  Cork,  was  arrested  by  British  troops  while 
presiding  over  a  Republican  Court. 

Since  this  document  was  published,  additional  punishments  have  been 
inflicted  upon  Irish  Members  of  Parliament. 


162 

has  been  heard  from  him  since.1  That  young  Black-and-Tan  who 
was  killed  on  the  station  platform  was  drunk,  it  is  said.  He  was  a 
chauffeur,  and  he  had  been  two  weeks  in  Ireland,  and  had  been 
fed  up  with  the  notion  that  the  Irish  were  particularly  violent.  As 
a  matter  of  fact,  there  is  a  great  deal  of  quietness  in  Ireland,  except 
where  the  police  and  military  are  patrolling.  He  was  on  the  plat- 
form when  the  papers  were  brought  in.  There  was  a  great  rush 
for  the  papers  for  two  reasons:  they  wanted  to  see  about  the  con- 
dition of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney;  and,  in  addition,  there  was  a 
race,  and  the  people  wanted  to  see  the  results  of  the  race.  For 
some  reason,  whether  this  young  man  was  drunk  or  not,  he  got 
excited  and  began  firing.  And  then  the  old  Irish  Constabulary  took 
it  into  their  heads  that  they  would  show  the  people  their  hand, 
and  began  their  reprisals.  The  old  man  Quirk  whom  they  killed 
was  organizer  for  the  Boy  Scouts,  and  known  to  have  the  respect  of 
the  citizens.  There  the  provocation  was  exceedingly  indirect.  It 
must  be  understood  that  the  Black-and-Tan  who  was  killed  at  the 
railroad  station  had  already  killed  a  man.  Nobody  knew  who  he 
was.  He  was  carried  to  a  house  by  Volunteers  of  Sinn  Fein.  Then 
it  was  found  out  that  this  man,  who  had  a  British  revolver,  was 
one  of  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown.  It  was  the  sort  of  thing  that 
might  happen  anywhere,  and  would  not  be  the  occasion  for  an 
outbreak  were  it  not  for  the  political  background.  There  are  every- 
where in  Ireland  desperate  evidences  of  the  efforts  of  Ireland  to 
realize  its  own  will  without  violence. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  do  you  know  about  Father  Griffin  being- 
kidnapped? 

A.     I  only  know  what  the  New  York  Times  said  last  week. 

Q.     Was  he  invited,  Mr.  MacDonald,  to  come  here? 

Mr.  MacDonald:  No,  he  was  not. 

The  Witness:  Father  Griffin  told  me  the  facts  about  what  hap- 
pened at  Gal  way.  I  went  to  see  Dr.  Thomas  Dillon,  professor  of 
mining  at  the  University.  I  had  to  go  to  eight  places  to  find  him. 
He  was  on  the  run  because  he  was  afraid  of  assassination  by  a 
policeman  who  knew  he  was  a  Sinn  Feiner.  He  had  been  arrested 
and  spent  ten  months  in  an  English  prison  for  a  German  plot.  I 
asked  him  about  the  German  plot,  and  he  said  he  knew  nothing 
about  it.  He  had  never  seen  a  German  plot  in  his  life,  but  it  was  a 
sufficiently  good  pretext  to  send  him  to  prison.  He  sent  me  to 
Father  Griffin,  and  he  told  me  that  the  official  report  of  what  had 


1  Father  Griffin  was  murdered  before  the   Commission  could  secure  his 
attendance. 


163 

happened  at  the  station  passed  through  his  hands.  I  think  Father 
Griffin  must  have  been  prominent  in  the  organization  of  Sinn  Fein. 
What  the  Government  has  tried  to  do  by  hook  or  crook  is  to  get 
rid  of  the  higher  in  command  in  Sinn  Fein.  The  Government  has 
a  list  of  the  prominent  Sinn  Feiners,  and  has  the  instrument  in  the 
Black-and-Tans  to  carry  its  plan  out. 

BLACK-AND-TANS    RECRUITED    FROM    EX-SOL- 
DIERS, ADVENTURERS  AND  CRIMINALS 

Who  are  the  Black-and-Tans?  I  went  to  one  gentleman  in  Ire- 
land, whose  name  I  will  give  to  the  Commission,  but  I  will  not 
give  it  publicly. 

Q.     This  is  an  English  officer? 

A.  An  English  officer.  He  told  me  that  they  are  recruited  in 
England  in  many  cases  from  ex-army  men.  They  are  often  adven- 
turers. "An  English  detective,"  he  said,  "came  over  here  to  see 
me  this  morning.  T  am  over  here  to  find  a  convict,  and  I  went  to 
the  depot  of  the  Black-and-Tans  to  find  him,'  the  detective  told  me. 
T  did  not  find  him  there,  much  to  my  surprise,  but  I  found  a  num- 
ber of  other  convicts  whom  I  knew  very  well.'  "  I  think  a  large 
number  of  the  Black-and-Tans  are  desperate  men  who  will  do 
anything.  Major  Erskine  Childers,  who  won  the  D.  S.  0.  for 
bravery  during  the  war,  has  published  a  pamphlet,  which  was  given 
to  you  yesterday,  showing  the  number  of  thefts  that  have  come  from 
Black-and-Tans.  They  are  that  class  of  men.  The  situation  is 
working  up  to  a  crisis.  All  the  time  we  are  being  told  that  Ireland 
cannot  stand  on  her  own  feet  economically,  and  is  run  by  terror  of 
a  small  band  of  extremists. 

IRELAND    ECONOMICALLY    SELF-SUPPORTING 

I  think  that  when  Ireland  gets  her  freedom,  she  will  work  towards 
a  workers'  commonwealth.  In  any  case  it  is  perfectly  clear  that 
Ireland  can  stand  on  her  own  feet  economically  if  she  is  given 
half  a  chance.  She  is  a  small  nation,  like  Denmark  in  many 
respects.  Its  principal  industry  is  agriculture.  Between  1915  and 
1919  Ireland  contributed  over  and  above  its  own  revenue  for  its 
own  expenditures  sixty-two  million  pounds  to  the  British  Empire. 
That  is  to  pay  for  these  tanks  and  aeroplanes  and  the  one  hundred 
thirty  thousand  soldiers  who  are   running  Ireland. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:     How  is  that  collected? 

A.     Through  excises,  customs,  and  inheritance  and  income  taxes. 


164 

Q.     The  army  of  occupation  is  paid  for  by  the  Irish? 

A.  Not  directly.  The  Irish  contribute  sixty-two  million  pounds 
to  the  Government,  and  that  money  is  spent  in  part  to  maintain  the 
army  of  occupation. 

Senator  Walsh:  That  is  the  policy  of  all  imperialistic  govern- 
ments, to  make  the  people  pay  the  cost  of  keeping  them  down. 

The  Witness:  Miss  Addams  made  the  point  this  morning  that  if 
any  locality  has  a  disturbance,  the  inhabitants  have  to  pay  for  all 
the  damage  done.  And  if  there  is  a  strike,  the  people  have  to  pay 
for  all  the  damage  done  during  the  strike.  If  the  ordinary  bourgeois 
gentleman  sees  a  strike  coming  along,  he  does  not  want  a  strike 
because  he  will  have  to  pay  for  part  of  the  results.  The  Irish 
people,  besides  contributing  to  maintain  this  army  of  occupation, 
have  to  pay  for  all  the  damage  this  army  inflicts  upon  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  does  the  Sinn  Fein  government 
get  its  money? 

A.  Partly  by  the  issue  of  bonds.  Of  course,  it  was  illegal  to 
advertise  those  bonds.  Many  of  them  were  sold  in  America.  Even 
when  they  got  the  money  it  was  not  always  safe,  for  many  of  the 
banks  where  these  Sinn  Fein  funds  are  deposited  have  been  raided. 
The  Sinn  Feiners  try  to  get  the  Irish  to  pay  an  income  tax  to  the 
Irish  rather  than  to  the  British  authorities.  The  British  cannot  col- 
lect the  tax  by  selling  the  property  on  which  the  tax  is  levied  be- 
cause nobody  will  go  to  the  auction  to  bid  on  it.  And  the  property 
cannot  be  picked  up  and  taken  away.  The  English  government 
cannot  get  more  than  ten  per  cent,  of  the  amount  of  its  taxes.  The 
Sinn  Fein  government  asks  the  property  owner  to  pay  to  it  fifty  per 
cent,  of  the  English  tax,  and  promises  to  protect  him  in  case  the 
English  seize  his  property  and  distrain  it  for  non-payment  of  taxes 
to  them.  From  the  fifty  per  cent,  which  it  does  get,  it  is  able  to 
compensate  for  property  which  is  distrained.  I  do  not  know  how 
well  this  plan  will  work  in  the  long  run. 

MILITARY     RULE     EXISTS     TO     SUPPRESS     IRISH 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Now,  as  to  reprisals.  You  can  see  that  the  established  military 
order  exists  to  suppress  by  any  means  the  efforts  of  these  people  to 
assert  themselves  and  establish  their  own  government.  I  have  to 
give  you  an  interview  given  out  by  Sir  Nevil  Macready,  the  military 
head  in  Ireland,  who  defends  the  killing  at  Balbriggan  of  two 
youne;  men.  He  says  that  it  is  only  ordinary  human  nature  that 
the  police  should  act  on   their  own  initiative  when   somebody   has 


165 

been  killed  unfairly.  As  a  result  of  these  killings,  he  says,  it  is 
necessary  to  augment  the  forces  of  law  and  order  from  England- 
This  is  an  interview  given  to  the  Associated  Press,  which  is  a  com- 
plete defense  of  the  military  policy  of  reprisals  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  suppose  that  if  the  Irish 
people  had  been  able  to  build  up  their  own  government  without 
the  killings  of  police,  that  reprisals  would  have  occurred? 

A.  It  is  very  difficult  to  say,  because  the  British  started  out  so 
roughly  in  handling  the  Irish  situation.  They  arrested  people 
merely  on  the  suspicion  that  they  wanted  independence,  and  were 
quite  brutal.  They  started  on  a  policy  of  intimidation,  and  it 
hardly  seemed  possible  for  the  Irish  Volunteers  to  function  unless 
the  police  wrere  driven  out  of  the  country  districts  into  the  towns. 
In  order  to  do  this  they  had  to  use  force.  However,  there  were 
very  few  police  killed  in  getting  the  evacuation  of  six  hundred 
barracks, — perhaps  twenty.  The  police  did  not  put  up  a  fight 
there.  But  when  they  got  into  the  towns,  with  sixty  or  seventy  in 
one  house  and  all  the  instruments  of  modern  war  to  support  them, 
then  they  could  defy  the  population. 

DRUNKEN  POLICE 

Lots  of  liquor  had  been  shipped  in  for  the  police.  I  myself  have 
seen  drunken  police.  I  have  seen  unshaven  police  on  Sunday 
afternoon.  Those  police  do  get  into  an  excited  frame  of  mind  very 
easily.  They  apparently  have  the  power  to  commit  any  outrage 
with  impunity.  How  the  Irish  have  been  able  to  keep  up  passive 
resistance  for  so  long  as  they  have,  I  do  not  know.  Then  there  had 
to  be  some  policy  taken  in  regard  to  assassinations,  because  those 
assassinations  began,  as  I  have  said,  with  the  police.  I  think  that 
explains  why  some  police  have  been  killed. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  have  you  seen  drunken 
police? 

A.  I  have  only  seen  one  instance.  I  have  seen  many  sodden 
men,  dirty  in  uniform,  in  Limerick. 

SINN     FEIN     AGREES     TO     PROTECT     UNARMED 
DUBLIN  POLICE 

But  I  have  to  contribute  one  fact  about  the  police  to  meet  Miss 
Addams'  point.  In  Dublin  there  were  five  or  six  members  of  the 
Dublin  Metropolitan  Police  killed.  The  Metropolitan  Police  are 
under  Dublin  Castle,  but  are  not  part  of  the  R.  I.  C.     There  was 


166 

some  sort  of  agreement  between  the  Sinn  Feiners  and  the  Dublin 
Metropolitan  Police  that  if  they  would  go  around  unarmed,  no 
policeman  would  be  killed.  Before  that  five  or  six  had  been  killed. 
Since  then  they  have  gone  around  unarmed  and  none  have  been 
killed.  Of  course,  the  English  do  not  tell  you  that  this  arrangement 
was  made. 

Q.  You  think  the  Sinn  Feiners  would  agree  to  do  that  with  all 
the  police? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  the  Sinn  Feiners  would  agree  to  that  tomorrow. 

Q.  But  that  would  prevent  the  British  from  stamping  out  the 
aspirations  of  the  Irish  for  a  republic. 

A.  Exactly.  The  crime  that  George  Washington  committed  and 
got  away  with,  the  crime  of  the  Czecho-Slovaks  and  the  other  people 
who  were  seeking  independence,  is  the  crime  of  the  Irish  today. 

BRITISH   AUTHORITY   IN   IRELAND    MAINTAINED 
BY  FORCE 

Q.  Mr.  Wood:  Can  you  give  us  some  idea  of  the  relation  be- 
tween the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  The  Auxiliary  Police  start  as  sergeants.  They  are  taken  in 
at  a  pound  a  day,  and  twenty-five  shillings  a  day  in  disturbed  areas. 
I  do  not  know  this  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  that  is  my  information. 
They  are  brought  over  from  England  as  sergeants  and  put  over  the 
R.  I.  C.  That  has  made  for  bad  blood  in  many  cases.  The  old 
local  senior  military  police  resent  this,  because  these  English  who 
are  brought  over  are  getting  more  pay  and  are  put  over  them.  As 
sergeants  they  are  getting  much  better  pay  than  the  regular  Irish 
Constabulary. 

I  have  seen  these  Auxiliary  Police  very  often  in  Ireland  coming 
back  from  a  raid  very  early  in  the  morning  covered  with  dust.  I 
myself  have  seen  a  military  motor  lorry  approaching  at  a  high  rate 
of  speed  along  the  roads,  and  you  know  that  you  will  be  killed  if 
you  do  not  get  out  of  the  way.  And  there  have  been  several  people 
killed  by  these  motor  lorries  along  the  roads. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  if  the  English  authori- 
ties had  not  imported  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  British  soldiers 
into  Ireland,  there  would  practically  be  in  Ireland  today  no  English 
government  except  the  officials  in  Dublin  Castle?  That  is,  all  the 
English  magistrates  and  all  the  Irish  Constabulary  were  rapidly 
coming  over  to  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  and  the  Republican  form 
of  government,  so  that  there  would  be  no  Irishmen  in  Ireland  under 


167 

English  pay  who  would  be  out  of  sympathy  with  the  movement  for 
a  Republic? 

A.  No,  I  think  there  would  be  a  small  number  who  would  like 
some  English  connection,  but  they  would  not  be  a  very  large  num- 
ber, perhaps  five  per  cent. 

Q.  But  vou  said  the  magistrates  and  the  police  were  resigning 
in  large  numbers,  so  that  a  situation  was  rapidly  approaching  where 
there  would  be  no  authority  except  the  English  left  in  Dublin  Castle. 

A.  Yes,  I  think  that  is  true.  But  the  police  are  in  this  situation : 
there  are  many  of  them  who  expect  to  be  pensioned  off  after  twenty 
years  of  service, — men  along  about  forty,  forty-five,  or  fifty  years 
of  age.  When  they  approach  the  pension  age  they  are  not  very 
apt  to  quit  the  job.  But  it  is  undoubtedly  true  that  if  the  English 
troops  were  withdrawn  tomorrow,  British  authority  in  Ireland 
would  be  largely  limited  to  Dublin  Castle  and  the  forty-six  or  forty- 
eight  or  fifty  departments — whatever  it  is — that  are  paid  there. 
They  would  stay  there  as  long  as  their  pay  lasted;  but  elsewhere 
the  new  government,  which  has  come  up  under  the  old  government 
like  a  shell,  would  function  openly.  Like  in  County  Conuaught, 
there  are  a  number  of  instances  where  the  police  have  sent  men  to 
the  Republican  courts  to  get  justice. 

CONSTRUCTIVE  ACHIEVEMENTS  OF  REPUBLICAN 
GOVERNMENT 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Tell  us  something  more  about  the  de  facto 
government,  Mr.  Hackett. 

A.  The  de  facto  government  has  a  land  bank  run  by  Lionel 
Smith-Gordon  in  Dublin.  They  are  trying  to  provide  land  for 
landless  men,  and  at  the  same  time  increase  the  country's  economic 
wealth  by  keeping  the  young  men  in  Ireland.  The  population  of 
Ireland  has  sunk  from  eight  million  to  four  million  in  the  last 
eighty  years.  No  population  in  Europe  has  sunk  in  this  same  way. 
The  Sinn  Feiners  are  trying  to  find  means  to  carry  out  the  program 
which  they  formulated  in  1098.  They  have  worked  out  justice  as 
well  as  they  can.  In  most  cases  it  is  not  criminal  justice, — just 
civil  justice.  They  have  established  these  civil  courts.  They  have 
inaugurated  a  commission  of  inquiry  into  the  conditions  and  sources 
of  industry  in  Ireland.  Of  course  it  is  an  illegal  body.  It  is 
pursued  by  the  military  authorities.  They  produced  a  document  on 
milk  production.  It  is  an  excellent  document.  They  are  endeavor- 
ing to  get  the  farmers  of  Ireland  to  introduce  a  very  revolutionary 
thing — milk  testing,  so  that  the  farmers  will  not  have  to  rely  upon 


168 

folk  lore,  but  rather  by  scientific  testing  they  will  be  able  to  say 
that  that  cow  is  a  good  cow  or  a  bad  cow.  This  report,  which  I 
will  leave  with  you,  shows  what  the  Sinn  Fein  government  is  trying 
to  do.  They  have  also  established  a  steamboat  line  from  New  York 
to  Ireland. 

Q.     This  lands  directly  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  at  Dublin,  I  believe. 

Q.  But  direct  trading  connections  are  possible  now  with  the  out- 
side world? 

A.  Yes.  But  like  the  coroners'  inquests,  it  may  be  cut  off. 
They  cannot  land  in  Queenstown  any  more.  If  Dublin  gets  to  be 
a  prosperous  port,  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  it  will  be  cut  off. 

Q.  Now,  about  the  de  facto  government.  Mr.  Morgan  said  yes- 
terday that  the  people  of  Ireland  had  a  certain  amount  of  self- 
determination  by  act  of  Parliament;  that  they  proceeded  to  use  this, 
and  that  the  Republicans  generally  succeeded  in  capturing  the  local 
governing  agencies,  like  he  described  in  Thurles.  How  generally 
has  the  old  imperialistic  government  been  succeeded  by  a  stable 
local  government? 

A.  I  think  you  would  find  it  is  not  proceeding  in  any  logical 
way.  Take,  for  instance,  this  machinery  of  local  government. 
The  Irish  Local  Government  Act  was  enacted  in  1900.  That 
machinery  is  still  employed  by  Sinn  Fein,  although  it  is  British 
machinery.  Where  those  local  bodies  which  Sinn  Fein  controls 
refuse  to  do  things  which  the  English  want  them  to  do,  then  the 
British  immediately,  if  they  can,  cut  off  their  resources.  A  situation 
has  been  created  at  Dublin,  for  example,  where  part  of  the  money 
for  supporting  the  tuberculosis  hospitals  was  contributed  by  the 
Government  to  the  Dublin  municipality.  When  Dublin  declared 
itself  for  Dail  Eireann,  the  British  Government  cut  off  this  money. 

Q.     Then  the  local  government  cannot  function? 

A.  That  is  it.  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  in  a  speech  he  made  last 
August,  said:  "If  they  will  not  run  the  railways,  we  may  not  be 
able  to  compel  them  to  do  so.  But  the  stoppage  of  the  railroads 
in  Ireland,  owing  to  the  refusal  of  certain  railwaymen  to  carry 
soldiers  and  munitions,  would  mean  the  cessation  of  the  old  age 
pensions  paid  to  the  males  and  the  stoppage  of  unemployment 
pensions." 

Q.     Do  you  think  that  is  an  effective  policy? 

A.  I  do  indeed.  The  Government  is  hoping  by  this  method 
to  make  satisfactory  local  government  impossible,  and  to  create  a 
public  opinion  that  will  demand  the  operation  of  the  railroads, 
even  though  the  railroads  carry  troops  and  munitions. 


169 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  When  you  speak  of  the  de  facto  government. 
\ou  mean  that  there  is  a  national  government  that  has  representa- 
tives all  over  Ireland,  and  that  eighty  per  cent,  of  the  population 
of  Ireland  have  by  vote  given  recognition  to  that  government,  and 
that  from  eighty  to  ninety  per  cent  of  the  town  and  city  and  county 
councils  recognize  President  De  Valera  and  Dail  Eireann  as  their 
president  and  their  national  government? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  So  that  there  is  every  single  bit  of  legislative  and  executive 
that  the  people  could  establish  to  create  a  national  government? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  But  it  is  being  constantly  broken  up  and  blocked  and  inter- 
fered with  by  the  British  authorities  to  break  down  the  purpose  and 
will  of  the  people? 

A.  Yes,  indeed.  \ou  have  heard,  I  suppose,  of  that  thing  called 
the  Continental  Congress.  Well,  if  the  British  forces  had  got  to 
Philadelphia,  where  the  Continental  Congress  was,  they  would  have 
been  compelled  to  meet  underground.  I  think  that  the  Dail  Eireann 
government  presents  much  the  same  aspect  of  government  in  some 
places  as  one  sees  in  some  of  the  countries  of  Europe,  like  Hungary, 
especially  on  the  military  side,  where  death  is  the  penalty  if  you 
are  found  connected  with  the  new  organization.  But  it  has  got  the 
sympathy  of  the  Irish  people.  They  are  absolutely  with  it.  They 
want  it.  And  the  actual  strength  of  the  people  will  support  it  to 
the  end. 

Q.  Suppose  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  were  removed 
from  Ireland;  what  would  happen? 

A.  The  new  government  would  come  up  from  the  cellar.  It 
would  come  up.  It  would  be  to  England's  best  interests  to  let  it 
come  up.  For  Ireland  is  the  second  best  customer  England  has. 
Next  to  the  United  States.  Ireland  consumes  more  English  goods 
than  any  other  country.  And  it  would  be  even  a  better  customer 
if  it  had  an  opportunity  to  develop  its  own  resources.  Although 
Ireland's  chief  source  of  wealth  is  agricultural,  there  are  only  one 
hundred  agricultural  students  in  all  of  Ireland,  as  against  thousands 
in  a  country  like  Denmark. 

Q.     Only  a  hundred  in  all  the  universities  and  schools  of  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  only  a  hundred  students  who  are  pursuing  courses  in 
scientific  agriculture;  real  students  in  agriculture. 


170 
AIMS  OF  SINN  FEIN 

I  will  leave  with  you  a  very  precious  document  entitled  "The 
Constitution  of  Sinn  Fein,  Established  in  1908,"  with  a  program 
which  is  now  being  put  into  effect.  Its  first  aims  were  a  just  eco- 
nomic system,  the  establishment  of  a  land  bank,  the  early  estab- 
lishment of  the  Irish  mercantile  marine,  and  th'e  development  of 
Ireland's  natural  resources.  There  is,  for  instance,  a  coal  mine 
only  nine  miles  from  where  I  was  born  that  has  never  had  a  railroad. 
Coal  is  still  hauled  by  a  cart. 

Q.     Good  coal? 

A.  Anthracite  coal,  yery  hard,  with  a  good  deal  of  sulphur,  but 
excellent  for  mercantile  uses. 

ENGLISH  ATTITUDE  "A  CURRENT   OF  CONFLICT- 
ING WINDS" 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  have  a  sense  that  this  tension 
in  Ireland  is  due  to  the  fact  that  the  military  are  themselves  being 
forced;  that  they  are  in  a  very  forced  position? 

A.  They  are  mixed,  I  think.  I  went  with  a  brother  of  mine  who 
is  a  doctor  in  a  prison  to  the  United  Service  Club,  and  some  of  the 
members  of  that  club  feel  very  bitter  about  the  Irish.  They  have 
been  educated  with  the  idea  that  the  Irish  are  inferior.  They  are  a 
little  like  the  common  soldier  I  heard  about  in  1916.  He  was  asked 
if  the  fighting  was  over  in  Dublin,  and  he  said,  "Yes,  all  but  the 
natives  in  the  hills,  who  have  not  yet  come  in."  They  have  this 
feeling  about  the  natives.  But,  of  course,  I  found  a  good  many 
soldiers  who  hate  their  jobs.  They  say  that  it  is  not  their  job — it 
is  a  police  job.  In  some  cases  the  military  have  prevented  the  police 
from  killing,  and  in  other  places  the  police  have  prevented  the  mili- 
tary from  killing.  And,  by  the  way,  the  only  picture  I  saw  that  was 
destroyed  in  the  Kerry  Row  that  we  heard  about  was  the  picture 
of  King  George.  It  was  in  the  home  of  a  man  who  had  fought  for 
the  British  Crown  in  Flanders.  The  police  probably  destroyed  it 
because  it  was  the  most  vivid  picture  in  the  Row,  with  bright  color- 
ings that  could  not  fail  to  attract  some  attention.  The  man  was 
furious  because,  he  said,  "It  cost  me  a  pound,  and  now  see  what  they 
have  done  to  it."  But  when  the  police  came  down  that  street  de- 
stroying everything,  smashing  in  doors  and  throwing  things  out  of 
the  windows,  and  stabbing  bedding  with  their  bayonets,  the  military 
came  and  stood  by;  and  some  of  the  inhabitants  came  out  and  said, 
"Can  you  not  stop  them?"    And  they  said,  "No,  we  cannot  prevent 


171 

them  from  destroying  property,  but  we  are  here  to  prevent  them 
from  destroying  life."  So  there  is  this  current  of  conflicting  winds. 
I  need  not  tell  you  that  if  a  hundred  and  thirty-five  thousand  soldiers 
on  a  war  footing  got  loose  to  destroy  things  in  Ireland,  they  would 
finish  the  job  in  a  week.  But  there  is  this  tug  between  conflicting 
winds.  All  of  England  is  not  out  to  massacre  Ireland.  If  they  were, 
they  would  have  massacred  them  long  ago.  On  the  other  hand, 
massacres  do  occur. 

Q.  I  mean  between  the  people  and  those  who  are  in  the  military 
and  police  service. 

A.  It  all  depends  upon  the  individual  military  officer.  Some- 
times he  is  orderly  and  civil  and  will  not  allow  any  theft.  In  Gal- 
way,  for  instance,  I  was  told  by  the  Sinn  Feiners  that  the  head  of  the 
military  was  a  very  fine  man,  Hildegard  his  name  was.  But  this 
good  officer  was  ordered  away  and  a  man  called  Cruise  came  there, 
and  he  had  a  very  different  attitude.  In  Galway,  for  instance,  there 
was  one  regiment  stationed  that  had  just  come  there  and  got  it  into 
their  heads  that  they  would  like  to  shoot  up  the  town.  The  other 
regiment  had  been  there  much  longer,  and  had  formed  certain  human 
associations  in  the  town,  and  they  by  force  kept  the  Devonshire 
regiment  in  the  barracks  and  prevented  them  from  destroying  the 
town.     And,  of  course,  the  Sinn  Feiners  are  equally  human. 

In  Belfast  there  was  a  Catholic  house  occupied  by  a  Catholic 
family  in  a  street  where  a  number  of  Protestant  families  live,d.  A 
number  of  men  came  in  and  said,  "We  are  Ulster  Volunteers.  You 
had  better  get  out  of  the  house,  for  we  are  going  to  burn  it."  One 
of  these  Catholic  women  stayed  to  see  what  would  happen,  and  the 
other  rushed  into  the  next  house,  where  the  people  were  also  mem- 
bers of  the  Ulster  Volunteers,  and  said,  "Oh,  for  God's  sake  come 
over.  We  don't  know  what  is  going  to  happen.  There  are  some 
men  who  say  they  are  Ulster  Volunteers,  and  they  are  going  to 
burn  down  our  house."  A  half  dozen  people  rushed  into  the  house 
and  said  to  the  men,  "Who  are  you?"  They  said  they  were  Ulster 
Volunteers,  and  the  others  said,  "What  credentials  have  you?"  And 
they  produced  a  paper.  The  man  from  the  street  said,  "This  will 
not  do  at  all."  And  he  asked  them  what  happened,  and  these 
Volunteers  said,  "We  gave  them  a  wee  beating."  And  my  friend 
said,  "And  where  are  they  now?"  And  they  said,  "They  are  in  the 
hospital." 

And  so  you  have  this  human  situation.  I  talked  to  an  English 
correspondent  who  was  in  a  hospital  in  Limerick,  and  he  said  he 
waved  to  a  motor  lorry  of  soldiers  when  they  went  by,  and  he  said, 
"I  bet  those  men  have  not  got  a  smile  since  they  got  into  Ireland. 


172 

I  have  seen  them  in  Flanders,  and  they  are  all  right."  This  news- 
paper man  was  Mr.  Hugh  Martin.  He  was  in  Dublin  the  next  week 
and  saw  a  row  in  a  bar.  An  officer  who  had  been  drinking  too  much 
was  flourishing  his  revolver.  The  porter  tried  to  shut  the  door, 
and  the  officer  pushed  his  revolver  in  his  face  and  prevented  him. 
Martin  sent  a  report  of  it  to  his  paper.  Two  or  three  days  later  a 
batch  of  English  journalists  went  to  Tralee,  and  the  police  came 
up  to  them  and  said,  "Which  of  you  is  Mr.  Martin?"  And  Martin 
concealed  his  identity,  and  they  said,  "When  we  catch  Mr.  Martin, 
we  are  going  to  kill  him."  And  Mr.  Martin  forgot  the  smile  he 
gave  the  Tommy  and  left  Ireland  the  next  day. 

And  this  situation  is  going  on  unless  some  other  country,  perhaps 
the  United  States,  can  get  it  into  Mr.  Lloyd  George's  conscience 
that  people  should  not  be  crucified  just  because  they  want  the  right 
to  govern  themselves. 

SINN  FEIN   NOT   LED   BY   HOT-HEADED 
EXTREMISTS 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  are  the  Sinn  Feiners 
educated? 

A.  Many  of  the  leaders  are  highly  educated  men.  There  are 
men  like  the  Protestant  writer,  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis;  and  Mr.  George 
Russell,  editor  of  the  Irish  Homestead,  is  very  sympathetic  with 
Sinn  Fein — more  sympathetic  than  any  other  man  I  have  met  out- 
side the  Sinn  Fein  cabinet.  Then  there  are  any  number  of  school 
teachers  and  professors. 

Q.  So  it  is  not  an  organization  led  by  a  few  hot-headed  en- 
thusiasts? 

A.  On  the  contrary,  I  talked  with  the  largest  dealer  in  sheeting 
in  Belfast,  and  he  is  a  Sinn  Feiner.  The  big  merchants,  a  great 
many  of  them,  in  spite  of  their  interests  in  business,  are  for  Sinn 
Fein.  Mr.  O'Mara,  head  of  the  American  Association  for  Recog- 
nition of  the  Irish  Republic,  whose  father  is  a  big  merchant,  is  a 
Sinn  Feiner. 

MAINTENANCE  OF  LAW  AND   ORDER  BY  REPUB- 
LICAN GOVERNMENT 

Q.  I  would  like  to  have  you  briefly  tell  us  what  the  program 
of  the  Sinn  Fein  organization  is  in  so  far  as  they  endeavor  to  pre- 
vent assaults  and  murders  and  violation  of  law  and  order? 

A.     That  is  the  question  which  Miss  Addams  asked  yesterday. 


173 

Q.  Do  they  have  a  fixed  policy?  Do  they  send  down  orders  to 
those  under  them  to  stop  murders  and  assaults? 

A.  I  think  that  there  isn't  any  doubt  but  that  in  many  cases 
they  have  intervened  to  prevent  violent  acts  by  subordinates.  1 
heard  of  a  man  who  had  been  guilty  of  theft,  who  had  been  intimi- 
dated in  a  horrible  way  into  making  a  confession.  They  knew  the 
man  was  guilty,  and  they  fired  a  revolver  off  beside  his  head  and 
frightened  the  life  out  of  him  until  he  confessed  and  the  goods 
were  restored.  I  told  this  to  a  Sinn  Feiner  in  Dublin,  and  he  was 
furious,  and  he  said,  "If  you  will  tell  me  who  they  are,  I  shall  see 
that  they  are  punished,  for  they  are  guilty  of  a  breach  of  trust." 
But,  of  course,  when  they  have  no  jails  there  is  no  way  of  punishing 
many  people.  When  they  had  General  Lucas  in  prison,  they  finally 
let  him  go  because  it  took  too  many  officers  to  stay  with  him  all 
the  time.  A  Sinn  Feiner  told  me,  "We  did  not  have  the  machinery 
to  keep  that  man  a  prisoner.  It  was  breaking  up  our  organization. 
We  had  to  give  too  much  brains  to  him.  He  had  to  have  the 
Times  from  London  every  day,  and  we  got  it  for  him  somehow. 
But  he  was  too  much  trouble."     So  they  let  him  go. 

There  is  another  instance  of  some  men  found  guilty  by  the  Sinn 
Fein  organization  and  put  on  an  island  in  the  Shannon.  The  R.  I. 
C.  heard  that  they  were  there  and  went  to  rescue  them;  and  when 
they  came  near  the  island,  the  prisoners  took  stones  and  fired  at  the 
R.  I.  C,  because  they  were  afraid  of  being  arrested!  I  could  give 
you  cases  of  Sinn  Fein  police  being  given  two  years  in  prison  be- 
cause of  their  police  work  in  preserving  order.  What  Mrs.  King 
told  you  this  morning  about  Templemore  and  the  police  work  of 
the  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers  there  was  absolutely  accurate.  All. the 
roads  were  broken  by  motor  vehicles.  All  the  vehicles  were  assessed 
sevpral  shillings  for  the  repair  of  the  roads. 

MORAL  FORCE  CHIEF  SUPPORT  OF  REPUBLICAN 
COURTS 

I  myself  have  gone  to  a  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  I  have  been  struck 
by  the  intelligence  and  good  sense  of  these  young  tradesmen  who 
were  running  the  court.  It  was  the  most  democratic  court  I  have 
ever  been  in.  And  although  there  is  no  physical  force  behind  the 
decrees,  they  are  usually  obeyed. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Moral  force? 

A.     Moral  force.    Of  course,  there  is  also  some  physical  force. 

I  The  witness  wTas  thereupon  excused.) 


174 

Chairman  Howe:  This  is  the  last  of  the  hearings  of  the  Commis- 
sion at  this  time.  The  next  sessions  will  probably  be  heard  the 
first  week  in  December.  One  of  the  witnesses  at  that  time  will  be 
Mrs.  MacSwiney,  who  sails  in  a  very  short  time  from  Ireland. 
There  are  a  number  of  other  witnesses  who  are  either  on  the  sea 
or  planning  to  sail  in  a  very  short  time.  There  may  be  one  or  two 
or  three  more  sessions. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  SIGNE  TOKSVIG 

The  last  witness  is  Miss  Toksvig,  of  New  York.  I  can  say  for 
her  that  she  is  a  Dane,  and  has  been  in  this  country  for  at  least 
eight  years.     Miss  Toksvig. 

Q.     Your  name  and  address,  please. 

A.     Signe  Toksvig,  of  229  East  48th  Street,  New  York  City. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  in  America? 

A.     I  have  been  in  America  for  fifteen  years. 

Q.     Are  you  an  Irishman? 

A.  I  am  a  Dane,  claiming  some  relationship  and  interest  in 
Ireland  through  my  husband. 

Q.     Born  in  Denmark? 

A.  Yes.  I  left  there  when  fifteen.  I  went  to  Denmark  this  fall, 
and  then  went  to  Ireland.  We  spent  most  of  the  time  in  the  south 
and  east  of  Ireland.  I  finally  insisted  that  we  should  go  to  Ulster, 
for  although  I  am  not  an  orthodox  Protestant,  I  come  from  a  family 
of  that  persuasion,  and  thought  in  fairness  that  we  ought  to  visit 
Ulster  and  find  out  at  first  hand  what  conditions  there  were  like. 
We  went  there  on  the  seventh  of  September. 

EXPULSION  OF  CATHOLIC  WORKERS 

You  probably  know  that  trouble  started  in  Ulster  on  the  twelfth 
of  July,  which  is  Orange  Day.  Trouble  usually  starts  on  that  day 
in  Belfast.  On  the  excuse,  as  I  could  see  it,  that  an  Ulster  man, 
District  Police  Inspector  Smyth,  had  been  killed  in  Cork,1  and 
another  R.  I.  C.  man,  who  was  also  an  Ulster  man,  had  been  shot, 
the  Ulster  shipworkers  refused  to  work  with  their  Catholic  fellow 
laborers,  and  I  think  that  about  five  thousand  Catholic  shipworkers 
in  Ulster  were  compelled  to  leave  because  of  the  demands  of  the 
Protestant  workers,  who  struck  to  compel  their  discharge.     Many, 


See  note,  page  67. 


175 

if  not  most,  of  these  had  to  leave  Ulster  because  they  had  no  other 
means  of  livelihood.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  street  fighting,  as 
you  know.  In  the  poorer  sections  of  the  town,  the  Catholics  and 
Protestants  fought  each  other  with  stones  and  the  like. 

A   DELIBERATELY   INSINCERE  APOLOGIST 

The  first  man  that  we  went  to  see  was  a  Mr.  Lind,  the  editor  of 
the  Whig,  an  extremely  Protestant  paper.  Mr.  Lind  thought  we 
were  tvpical  American  journalists,  and  he  gave  us  what  we  con- 
sidered to  be  the  regular  dope  for  American  journalists.  Much  of 
it  we  knew  at  the  time  was  not  true.  He  filled  us  up  with  the  usual 
stock  stories,  such  as  that  Belfast  had  contributed  more  soldiers  to 
the  Irish  army  during  the  war  than  all  the  rest  of  Ireland  put  to- 
gether (that  can  be  easily  verified,  or  rather  not  verified,  from  the 
records),  and  that  the  rest  of  Ireland  gave  only  two  to  Ulster's 
three.  He  also  said  that  all  the  people  in  Belfast  were  orderly, 
law-abiding  citizens;  and  when  I  remarked  to  him  that  fifty-six 
people  had  been  killed  in  the  month  of  August  in  Belfast,  he  said 
that  when  these  Belfast  people  heard  of  their  fellow  townsmen 
killed  in  Cork,  they  could  not  be  restrained.  He  said  that  the  Sinn 
Feiners  were  all  leagued  with  Germany  and  received  guns  from 
Germany.  I  asked  him  if  it  was  not  true  that  there  had  been  a 
gun-running  at  Larne  at  the  time,  of  the  Carson  rebellion.  He  said 
there  was  not  one  gun  got  from  Germany  at  that  time,  and  if  there 
was,  it  was  for  the  defense  of  the  Empire.  Mr.  Lind  was  very 
pleasant,  but  he  was  not  truthful.  He  was  the  only  man  I  met  in 
Belfast,  however,  who  was  deliberately  insincere.  There  were  some 
others  who  were  sincerely  misinformed  and  misinforming.  But  he 
knew  that  what  he  said  was  not  true. 

BELFAST  IMPRESSIONS 

Then  I  met  a  Mr.  Good,  who  wrote  the  best  history  of  Ulster  that 
has  been  written,  but  it  was  not  reviewed  in  the  Ulster  papers.  He 
called  attention  to  the  fact  that  it  was  not  so  very  long  ago  that 
Ulster  Catholics  and  Protestants  were  fighting  side  by  side  against 
England.  Mr.  Good  was  the  son  of  the  head  constable  of  the  Irish 
Constabulary.  He  is  not  a  Sinn  Feiner,  but  he  is  a  very  fair  man, 
and  I  think  we  could  believe  what  he  told  us.  He  said  that  in  Bel- 
fast a  very  peculiar  situation  existed.  Most  of  the  constables  were 
Catholics,  owing  to  the  fact  that  no  Ulster  constables  are  placed  in 
their  home  county,  but  are  sent  down  to  the  south  of  Ireland,  and 


176 

vice  versa.  So  that  when  the  Ulster  shipworkers  attacked  their 
Catholic  fellow  workers,  the  constables  protected  them.  He  him- 
self had  often  heard  the  shipworkers  say  that  "When  we  get  those 
constables  alone  we  shall  do  for  them."  He  also  told  us  that  very 
often  the  Catholics  and  Protestants  helped  each  other  in  cases  where 
they  knew  each  other.  He  said  that  whenever  attacks  were  made, 
they  were  not  made  by  neighbors  against  neighbors,  but  by  people 
coming  from  another  part  of  the  town — a  Protestant  gang  would 
come  over  and  fight  someone  in  the  Catholic  quarter,  or  vice  versa, 
but  where  they  were  mixed  and  knew  each  other,  they  were  not  so 
likely  to  do  that. 

I  talked  with  a  man  who  was  a  trolley-car  starter.  We  met  him 
several  times.  He  was  as  kind  a  man  and  as  polite  a  man  without 
being  servile  as  I  have  met.  He  had  very  liberal  views.  He  had 
been  with  the  English  army  that  had  fought  in  Russia  at  Archangel. 
He  said  that  those  people  ought  to  have  the  right  to  decide  what 
kind  of  a  government  they  wanted.  He  thought  that  Englishmen 
surely  ought  to  realize  that  the  Irish  nation  should  have  a  right  to 
say  what  it  wanted  to  do.  And  so  I  said  to  him,  "Don't  you  think 
it  was  rather  rough  to  turn  five  or  six  thousand  people  out  of  their 
employment  just  on  account  of  their  religion?"  And  he  looked  at 
me  and  said,  "Well,  they  were  getting  very  cockey,  and  we  had  to 
put  them  in  their  place." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  these  five  or  six  thousand  who  were 
discharged  Catholics? 

A.     Yes.     Discharged  is  hardly  the  word. 

Q.  The  Protestant  workers  struck,  and  went  back  to  work  on  a 
compromise  that  the  Catholic  workers  would  be  kept  out  of  em- 
ployment? 

A.     Yes. 

Then  he  told  us,  as  an  example  of  the  extreme  cheek  of  the 
Catholics — he  pointed  to  a  street  near  where  he  stood  and  said: 
"A  band  of  them  came  here  one  morning.  They  saw  a  laundry 
wagon  full  of  clothes-baskets.  They  stormed  the  wagon  and  took 
the  baskets  and  made  a  barricade  across  the  street  and  got  down 
behind  that  and  began  to  fire.  But,  fortunately,  we  had  a  very 
brave  inspector  of  police,  and  he  came  along  and  shot  several  of 
them,  and  they  all  fled." 

And  then  in  Londonderry — 

Q.     What  is  the  Protestant  population  in  Belfast? 

A.  The  Catholic  is  about  20  per  cent,  of  the  total  population. 
Most  of  the  others  are  Protestant. 

Q.     And  in  Londonderry  it  is  half  and  half? 


177 

A.     It  is  about  half  and  half.  1  think. 

We  talked  with  the  man  who  showed  us  around  the  walls  in  Lon- 
donderry. The  most  that  we  got  out  of  him  was  that  it  was  very 
bad  for  Catholics  and  Protestants  to  marry,  because  it  would  never 
work.  And  home  rule  would  never  work.  He  had  no  reasons  to 
give  us.  He  just  had  that  idea  roofed  in  his  head.  He  wa-  out  oi 
work,  and  was  a  bit  dissatisfied. 

Q.     Had  the  strike  extended  to  Londonderry'.'' 

A.     No.     I  do  not  know  why  he  was  out  of  work. 

I  talked  to  another  man  from  the  south  of  Ireland,  and  he  began 
to  talk  to  me  very  freely  when  he  found  that  I  was  sympathetic.  1 
do  not  know  wThether  he  was  a  Sinn  Feiner,  but  he  was  Republican. 
In  the  south  of  Ireland,  he  said,  you  cannot  even  carry  a  camera 
without  being  arrested;  but  in  Belfast  you  can  have  a  Lewis  gun  in 
your  house  if  you  are  of  the  right  persuasion  and  you  will  not  be 
touched.  I  said,  "Whose  houses  have  been  destroyed  in  Belfast?"" 
He  told  me  that  in  certain  districts  only  certain  houses  were  de- 
stroyed. I  went  to  that  district  and  found  that  most  of  the  houses 
destroyed  had  Irish  names  on  them — Murphy,  O'Callaghan,  and  so 
forth — Irish  Catholic  names.  They  were  mostly  public  houses. 
And  I  was  told  by  a  man  who  was  there  that  the  soldiers  were  there 
at  the  time  of  the  raid,  and  that  they  held  back  the  mob,  and  let  a 
few  of  the  mob  through,  and  said,  "Easy.  easy,  only  a  few  at  a 
time.     There  is  enough  for  everybody." 

COBBLESTONES  MENACE  PEACE  OF  BELFAST 

The  whole  prospect  for  immediate  peace  there  seemed  very  dis- 
couraging, especially  in  view  of  the  large  piles  of  stones  in  the 
poorer  sections  of  Belfast,  which  they  call  Irish  confetti  or  Irish 
butterflies. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  are  those  stones? 

A.  We  wTere  told  by  Mr.  Good,  who  knows  Belfast  very  well, 
that  these  cobblestones  were  a  great  menace  to  the  peace  of  the 
city.  At  one  time  the  city  council  voted  to  have  the  streets  of  the 
city  repaved,  so  that  this  menace  might  be  done  away  with.  But 
they  voted  to  begin  repaving  in  the  Nationalist  quarter;  and  the  Na- 
tionalist members  of  the  council,  as  few  as  they  were  in  number, 
made  such  a  row  that  the  paving  wras  never  done;  and  of  course  in 
the  Orange  section  of  the  city  they  refused  to  have  the  paving  begin 
there,  because  it  would  leave  them  without  weapons. 


178 

RELIGIOUS   PREJUDICES   FOSTERED   BY   BELFAST 
MANUFACTURERS 

Also  we  met  an  Ulster  man  who  was  an  Unionist,  and  also  a  rea- 
sonable human  being.  He  was  a  large  manufacturer,  but  of  course 
I  could  not  give  his  name  except  very  privately  to  the  Commission. 
He  only  talked  to  us  because  we  came  very  highly  recommended  by 
Mr.  Good,  who  is  well  known  in  Belfast.  At  first  he  was  very  reti- 
cent and  confidential,  but  after  awhile  he  said,  "I  know,  and  all  the 
manufacturers  in  this  city  know,  that  the  trouble  is  not  a  religious 
trouble  except  as  it  has  been  fostered  by  them  to  serve  their  political 
and  their  economic  interests," 

Q.     By  "them"  meaning  whom? 

A.  By  the  manufacturers  in  Belfast.  He  said,  "1  warned  them 
a  long  time  ago  that  they  were  raising  up  a  monster  which  they 
could  not  control  and  which  some  day  might  turn  upon  them,  but 
they  paid  no  attention.  Both  the  press  and  the  clergy — not  all  of 
them,  but  some  of  them — and  the  large  manufacturers  have  worked 
together  to  keep  up  strife  between  the  workmen  in  Belfast,  using  the 
religious  issue  simply  as  a  means." 

Q.     As  a  means  to  prevent  what? 

A.  To  prevent  agitation  among  laborers  to  improve  their  con- 
dition and  wages,  and  home  rule  agitation  secondly.  It  seems  to 
me  that  that  was  a  large  admission  for  him  to  make.  He  might  be 
willing  to  come  over  here  and  testify.    He  is  a  very  courageous  man. 

POINT  OF  VIEW  OF  SOME  ULSTER  PROTESTANTS 

Q.     Did  your  other  evidence  confirm  that? 

A.  Yes,  absolutely.  The  brother  of  this  man,  who  is  a  junior 
partner  in  the  firm,  talked  with  us  afterwards,  and  he  gave  us  the 
same  impression.  He  was  terribly  shocked  by  what  he  called  the 
murders  of  policemen  in  the  south  of  Ireland.  Of  course,  his  whole 
point  of  view  was  that  England  furnished  all  their  law  and  order, 
and  he  repudiated  the  Sinn  Fein  government.  He  said,  "You  can 
hardly  blame  us.  We  went  to  school  in  England.  All  our  connec- 
tions and  acquaintances  are  there.  Nevertheless,  we  are  not  against 
dominion  home  rule."  They  were  against  the  Sinn  Fein  Republic. 
I  do  not  know  whether  it  would  be  possible  to  change  them  or  not. 
My  own  personal  feeling  was,  in  talking  with  other  people  in 
Ulster,  people  in  the  stores  and  on  the  streets,  that  they  were  enough 
different  from  the  people  in  the  rest  of  Ireland  to  have  the  right  to 
vote  as  to  what  would  become  of  them.     The  man  with  whom  I 


179 

talked  said,  "I  know  perfectly  well  that  this  country  our  forefathers 
got  by  robbing  the  Irish  inhabitants  several  hundred  years  ago. 
But  we  have  developed  this  country  by  our  own  labors,  and  is  it 
right  to  drive  us  out  of  here  without  giving  us  a  voice  as  to  what  is 
going  to  become  of  us?"  He  was  a  descendant  of  one  of  the  fam- 
ilies that  was  planted  in  Ulster. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  they  use  the  word  "planted"  in  Ulster  to 
denote  those  who  were  planted  there  by  England  many  years  ago? 

A.  Yes,  he  knew  that.  He  knew  more  history  than  the  majority 
of  the  people  in  Ulster. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    Just  when  was  that? 

A.  The  planting  was  about  two  hundred  years  ago.  Then  we 
talked  with  the  bookkeeper  in  that  firm,  who  took  us  around  and 
showed  us  the  factory.  I  have  seen  excellent  factories  in  the  United 
States,  and  this  factory  was  as  good  as  any  of  them.  It  was  an  ex- 
ceptional case.  I  saw  many  young  girls  working  who  looked  to  me 
to  be  under  fourteen,  but  he  said  that  they  were  all  over  fourteen, 
and  they  probably  would  have  said  so  themselves.  They  had  a 
nine-hour  day.  There  are  some  factories  in  Belfast,  we  heard  from 
the  bookkeeper,  which  were  not  up  to  that  standard.  Yet  they  had 
municipal  inspection  all  the  time,  and  had  to  measure  up  to  a  cer- 
tain norm.  The  bookkeeper  also  said  that  there  were  factories  in 
the  south  of  Ireland,  usually  laundries  and  places  like  that,  which 
were  far  from  sanitary  and  ought  to  be  inspected.  I  said  to  him. 
"Is  that  in  your  opinion  an  argument  against  Ulster  coming  into  an 
independent  Ireland  or  an  Irish  dominion?  Are  you  afraid  that  the 
south  of  Ireland  will  hinder  you  in  Belfast  from  doing  what  you  are 
doing?"  He  said,  "No,  that  is  all  the  more  reason  why  we  should 
go  into  an  Irish  parliament  and  settle  it  between  ourselves  and  de- 
cide together  what  we  are  going  to  do."  All  the  people  in  that  fac- 
tory are  Presbyterians — Protestants.  Both  the  bookkeeper  and  the 
two  brothers  at  the  head  of  this  factory  I  found  to  be  as  liberal  and 
as  good  to  their  employees  as  any  employers  I  have  ever  met. 

MURDER  GLOSSED  OVER 

I  think  this  is  all  I  have  to  say,  except  that  we  attended  an  in- 
quest in  Belfast  over  two  murders  that  occurred  in  August.  The 
thing  that  impressed  me  most  was  a  conversation  I  had  with  a  police 
sergeant.  He  was  an  Ulsterman  from  County  Cavan,  I  think.  He 
was  a  reasonable  man,  and  I  said  to  him:  "Don't  you  think  it  would 
be  much  better  if  you  were  a  civil  force,  and  did  not  have  to  carry 
these  arms?"  pointing  to  his  arms.     He  said,  "Yes,  I  think  it  would 


180 

be  far  better  if  we  were  only  a  civil  force,  and  had  no  military  duties 
to  perform."  T  was  also  impressed  by  the  evidence  given  by  the 
district  inspector  of  police  at  that  inquest,  and  at  the  way  his  evi- 
dence was  disregarded  by  the  coroner  and  the  coroner's  jury.  His 
evidence  had  to  do  with  the  case  of  a  man  shot  from  an  armored 
car.  There  were  two  streets,  connected  by  another  street  forming  a, 
letter  H,  where  there  was  a  riot.  That  cross-bar  street,  however, 
was  perfectly  quiet.  It  appeared  to  me  from  the  evidence  that  it 
was  perfectly  clear  that  the  man  standing  at  his  door  in  that  cross 
street  was  a  quiet,  peaceful  man.  His  widow  was  there.  That  man 
was  a  Protestant.  He  was  also  a  Sinn  Feiner  as  far  as  I  know.  It 
was  evident  that  he  had  been  shot.  But  the  coroner  and  the  jury 
were  so  anxious  to  gloss  it  over  that  the  three  young  officers,  who 
appeared  to  be  very  excited,  were  acquitted  by  the  jury. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  the  north  they  still  have  coroners' 
juries? 

A.  Yes,  because  in  the  north  the  people  on  the  jury  will  in- 
variably give  the  verdict  that  the  Crown  wants,  while  in  the  south 
of  Ireland  it  will  always  bring  in  the  verdict  that  the  Crown  does 
not  want. 

Q.  Then  there  is  a  different  rule  for  different  sections  of  the 
country  in  regard  to  coroners'  juries? 

A.     Yes,  exactly. 

THE  UNCONTROLLABLE  "MONSTER  OF  RELIGIOUS 
PREJUDICE" 

There  is  one  more  thing  I  want  to  tell  you  as  an  example  of  how 
the  Ulster  manufacturers  have  called  into  being  a  monster  of  re- 
ligious prejudice  that  they  can  no  longer  control.  The  owner  of  a 
very  large  machine  works,  called  the  Sirocco  works,  I  believe,  had 
been  affected  by  the  very  same  conditions  that  the  shipyards  had  to 
face.  The  Protestant  workmen  laid  down  their  tools  and  refused 
to  go  back  to  work  with  Catholic  employees.  The  owner  wanted  to 
start  up  again,  but  he  could  not  because  there  were  certain  drafts- 
men employed  by  him,  very  crucial  men,  men  on  whom  the  industry 
depended,  who  were  Catholics.  No  one  else  could  take  their  places. 
so  he  slipped  them  in  and  thought  the  other  workmen  would  not 
notice  it.  But  the  workmen  did  notice  it,  and  demanded  that  he  dis- 
miss these  men.  And  so  he  had  to  shut  down  his  factory.  He  could 
not  run  without  them.  And  of  course  it  threw  the  Protestant  work- 
men   out   of  employment   too.      The   bookkeeper   to   whom    I    have 


181 

referred  told  me  about  this  case.  "And  so,"  he  said,  "that  is  the 
result  of  stirring  up  religious  prejudices." 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  not  the  whole  religious  question  in  Ire- 
land one  of  the  privileged  classes,  the  financial  interest  classes,  who 
control  some  of  the  press  and  clergy  and  keep  these  religious  dif- 
ferences stirred  up  for  intrenching  their  own  privileges? 

A.  That  is  true.  But  you  must  remember  that  they  have  suc- 
ceeded in  doing  that.  They  have  dangled  the  religious  bogey  be- 
fore the  people  for  so  long  that  now  a  very  real  feeling  exists.  It 
started  out  like  that.  But  the  present  generation  is  not  going  to 
forget  about  it  soon,  even  though  it  was  started  artificially. 

Chairman  Howe:    We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you. 

Adjournment  5:45  P.  M. 


SECOND  HEARINGS  ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Before  the 

AMERICAN  COMMISSION  OF  INQUIRY  ON  CONDI- 
TIONS  IN   IRELAND 
Session  One 

Jane  Addams 

James  H.  Maurer 

Oliver  P.  Newman 

George  W.  Norris 

Norman  Thomas  \    Commissioners 

David  I.  Walsh 

L.  Hollingsworth  Wood 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 

Before  the  Commission  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washington, 
D.  C,  Wednesday,  December  8,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:23  a.  m. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  session  will  please  come  to  order.  Since 
the  last  meeting  of  the  Commission  the  following  persons  have 
become  members  of  the  Commission,  and  will  sit  with  us  this 
morning: 

Senator  George  W.  Norris,  of  Nebraska. 

Congressman-Elect  C.  L.  Knight  has  been  elected  but  is  not  here, 
although  he  has  accepted  membership.  He  is  the  Congressman- 
elect  from  Akron,  Ohio. 

Major  Oliver  P.  Newman,  former  District  Commissioner  of  the 
District  of  Columbia.  Major  Newman  is  sick  in  bed  today  and 
cannot  be  with  us. 

Mr.  Norman  Thomas,  of  New  York,  who  is  here  this  morning. 

The  Commission  has  also  asked  Senator  Thomas  Walsh,  of  Mon- 
tana, and  Ex-Senator  James  Martine,  of  New  Jersey,  to  sit  with  the 
Commission  today.     They  are  present  with  us. 

The  first  witness  this  morning  is  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney.  Miss 
MacSwiney  is  on  the  witness  stand. 

Miss  MacSwiney,  you  realize  that  this  is  not  a  regular  legal  hear- 

182 


183 

ing — not  a  legal  procedure — and  you  are  not  subject  to  cross  exami- 
nation, except  that  the  members  of  the  Commission  want  to  examine 
you  to  get  at  the  facts  and  find  out  about  conditions  in  Ireland.  We 
want  you  to  tell  your  story  in  a  way  that  is  easy  and  natural  to  you, 
and  we  would  like  to  have  you  tell  it  loud  enough  so  that  as  many 
of  the  people  here  as  possible  can  hear  it. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  MARY  MACSWINEY 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh  (of  counsel)  :  Your  name  is  Miss  Mary 
MacSwiney? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside,  Miss  MacSwiney? 

A.     In  Cork,  Cork  city. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  that  there  was  something  you  wanted  to 
say  to  the  Commission. 

AN  EXPRESSION  OF  APPRECIATION 

A.  I  felt  that  I  wanted,  before  I  started  my  evidence  this  morn- 
ing, to  thank  the  Commission  and  the  American  people  first,  for 
the  kindly  reception  we  got,  and  to  thank  the  Commission  for  its 
endeavor  to  help  Ireland  by  getting  at  the  truth. 

I  think  the  best  evidence  that  this  Commission  is  impartial  is  the 
fact  that  when  I  left  Ireland  I  got  the  impression  from  some  Amer- 
icans that  were  there  in  the  summer  that  this  Commission  was  one 
especially  arranged  by  friends  of  England  to  try  to  whitewash  her 
in  the  papers,  and  to  do  it  not  only  in  England's  interests  but  in  the 
interests  of  an  Anglo-American  alliance.  I  find  also  that  our 
enemies  took  it  that  you  are  a  Sinn  Fein  sympathizing  Commission. 
And  since  we  thought  you  were  pro-British,  and  they  thought  you 
were  pro-Irish,  you  must  therefore  be  impartial. 

I  should  also  like  to  express  my  appreciation  of  the  fact  that  the 
Commission  has  been  trying  to  carry  out  one  of  the  purposes  for 
which  America  entered  the  war,  and  which  I  think  we  all  agree  was 
not  quite  effected  by  the  war,  and  that  is  to  make  the  world  safe  for* 
democracy.  As  far  as  my  evidence  is  concerned,  I  should  like  to 
give  whatever  evidence  I  have  to  the  Commission. 

MACSWINEY  FAMILY  IN  COUNTY  CORK  SINCE 
FOURTEENTH  CENTURY 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  wish  you  would 
begin  at  the  point  that  you  suggested  to  me  that  you  thought  would 


184 

be  significant,  and  as  far  as  you  can,  go  ahead  with  your  own  story. 
I  will  ask  you  a  few  questions  to  begin  with.  You  are  the  sister  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  the  names  of  your  parents? 

A.  John  Terence  MacSwiney  was  my  father's  name.  He  was  a 
native  of  County  Cork,  where  my  family  have  resided  since  the 
fourteenth  century.  And  my  mother  was  named  Mary  Wilkinson. 
She  was  born  and  brought  up  in  England,  but  of  her  four  grand- 
parents, three  were  Irish. 

Q.     How  many  brothers  and  sisters  have  you? 

A.     Originally  a  family  of  nine,  five  boys  and  four  girls. 

Q.     And  how  many  are  living  now? 

A.     Six  since  my  brother  Terence  died. 

Q.     Have  the  family  always  lived  in  Cork? 

A.  My  father  went  to  England  after  the  Fenian  times,  when 
things  were  very  hard  in  Ireland,  and  took  up  a  position  there,  and 
married  my  mother  there,  and  I  was  born  there. 

Q.     In  London? 

A.  In  London.  We  came  back  to  Ireland  when  I  was  five.  The 
family  have  lived  there  ever  since.  Some  have  gone  away  for  short 
periods.  I  was  in  college  in  England  and  was  teaching  in  England 
for  a  while. 

Q.     What  place  was  the  late  Lord  Mayor  in  the  family? 

A.     He  was  the  fourth. 

Q.     He  was  the  fourth  in  the  family? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  how  many  brothers  and  sisters  have  you  living? 

A.     I  have  now  two  brothers  and  three  sisters  living. 

Q.     And  the  brothers  are  whom? 

A.  My  eldest  brother  is  Peter.  He  is  an  American  citizen.  He 
came  to  this  country  in  1908  and  was  naturalized  here,  and  lived 
in  New  York.  My  youngest  brother,  John,  was  in  Canada  when  the 
war  broke  out,  and  he  got  a  very  bad  time  there  because  he  would 
not  join  the  British  army  to  fight  the  small  nations.  He  was  sen- 
tenced to  two  years'  imprisonment,  and  might  even  have  been  sen- 
tenced to  death;  and  he  was  about  to  be  transported  forcibly  to 
fight  in  the  British  army,  but  some  of  his  friends  got  a  writ  of 
habeas  corpus,  to  prove  that  under  Canadian  law  they  were  not 
entitled  to  send  him  across  seas;  and  while  that  matter  was  under 
the  jurisdiction  of  the  courts,  the  armistice  was  signed. 

Q.     Where  do  your  sisters  reside? 

A.     Two   of   my   sisters   are   nuns.      One   is   in   Asheville,   North 


185 

Carolina.     She  ha:-  been  in  America  since   1910.     Another  sister  is 
in  Japan.     My  third  and  youngest  sister  is  at  home. 

Q.     What  has  your  life  been? 

A.     A  teacher. 

Q.      How  long  have  you  been  a  teacher? 

A.     I  have  been  a  teacher  since  1901. 

IRELAND'S    FIGHT    FOR    FREEDOM    CONTINUOUS 
SINCE   ENGLISH   CONQUEST 

Q.  You  suggested,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  in  order  to  give  a 
proper  background  for  other  features,  and  what  has  transpired  re- 
cently, you  might  briefly  sketch  the  Republican  movement,  espe- 
cially as  it  has  touched  your  family  and  your  case,  and  as  you 
had  observation  of  it. 

A.     Just  the  present  Republican  movement? 

Q.     Well,  the  background  you  gave  me. 

A.  I  suppose  the  background  of  most  of  the  Irish  families  such 
as  ours  is  the  background  of  Ireland.  I  would  like  to  emphasize 
that  the  present  Republican  movement  is  not  a  new  thing.  It  is  a 
continuous  fight  that  has  been  going  on  for  Irish  freedom  ever  since 
the  English  conquered  our  country.  In  Henry  VIII's  time  they  held 
a  very  small  portion  of  the  country.  He  was  the  first  to  take  the 
title  of  King  of  Ireland,  but  he  was  really  king  of  only  a  couple 
of  counties.  By  degrees  the  English  spread  over  Ireland,  and 
finally  dominated  the  whole  of  it.  But  from  the  time  that  they 
dominated  the  country,  there  never  has  been  one  generation  when 
a  fight  for  independence,  an  open  fight,  has  not  taken  place.  There 
has  always  been  an  open  current  of  hostility  to  English  government 
in  Ireland,  and  the  Irish  people  have  never  once  in  all  the  course 
of  their  history  accepted  the  British  government  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Coming  down  through  the  Home  Rule  movement,  with  which 
I  believe  you  are  familiar,  is  there  a  connection  between  this  Home 
Rule  movement  and  the  struggles  that  have  gone  on  all  the  time 
against  English  domination  over  your  country? 

A.  Distinctly,  I  should  say.  Suppose  I  begin  with  1798.  I  will 
not  take  very  long.  In  1798  there  was  an  outbreak.  They  call  it 
the  Irish  Rebellion.  I  should  like  to  emphasize  for  the  American 
people  that  the  definition  of  a  rebellion  is  an  uprising  against  law- 
fully constituted  authority.  Consequently  there  never  has  been  a 
rebellion  in  Ireland.  There  was  an  insurrection.  But  you  cannot 
have  a  rebellion  unless  you  are  rising  against  lawfully  constituted 


186 

authority.     And  England's  authority  in  Ireland  was  never  lawfully 
constituted — it  was  an  usurpation  maintained  by  the  sword. 

IRISH  PROTESTANTS  LEAD  STRUGGLES  FOR 
FREEDOM 

Consequently,  in  1798  there  was  an  Irish  insurrection,  in  which 
Wolfe  Tone,  Lord  Edward  Fitzgerald,  and  many  other  famous  men, 
with  whose  names  we  are  not  familiar,  tried  to  secure  Ireland's  free- 
dom. It  was  distinctly  a  Republican  movement.  Wolfe  Tone  de- 
clared for  Irish  independence,  and  it  was  an  insurrection  all  the 
leaders  of  which  were  without  exception  Protestants.  I  should  like 
to  emphasize  that,  because  some  of  your  people  have  the  idea  that 
the  Irish  difficulty  is  a  religious  difficulty.  There  is  no  religious 
difficulty  in  Ireland  of  serious  importance.  It  is  entirely  a  move- 
ment for  political  freedom.  I  might  say  that  many  of  the  leaders 
in  the  Republican  movement  have  been  Protestants,  not  only  Wolfe 
Tone  and  Lord  Edward  Fitzgerald,  but  men  like  the  Emmets,  Mac- 
Cracken,  Thomas  Davis,  John  Mitchel,  and  Parnell — for  we  do 
reverence  Parnell,  because  he  put  up  a  good  fight  in  his  day.  And 
many  of  the  leaders  of  the  present  movement  are  Protestants. 

Well,  that  revolt  was  crushed,  and  then  there  was  a  period  from 
1817  to  1847  when  there  were  many  petty  wars  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Miss  MacSwiney,  may  I  interrupt  you  there? 
Were  all  the  names  of  all  those  persons  you  named  Protestants? 

A.  Every  one  of  them,  Senator,  and  many  more  of  them.  Dur- 
ing that  period,  the  first  half  of  the  nineteenth  century,  the  Tithe 
Wars  and  the  wars  against  an  oppressive  landlord  system  were 
constantly  going  on.  They  were  what  you  might  call  little  sectional 
wars.  The  Tithe  War  was  national.  It  meant  that  the  Irish  Catholic 
population  were  protesting  against  having  to  support  non-Catholic 
clergymen.  As  an  instance,  I  can  tell  you  of  clergymen  who  got 
a  salary  of  one  thousand  pounds  a  year.  That  would  be,  I  suppose, 
about  five  thousand  dollars;  and  they  never  entered  Ireland  from 
one  year's  end  to  another.  They  lived  in  England  and  spent  their 
money  in  England. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  That  was  paid  out  of  the  public  taxation? 

A.     Out  of  the  public  taxes,  yes. 

Q.  That  was  the  struggle  against  what  was  called  the  Irish 
Church? 

A.  Yes.  And  it  finally  ended  in  the  disestablishment  of  the 
Church  in  1869.     But  it  was  only  by  the  Fenian  uprising  that  they 


187 

later  disestablished  the  Church.     Meantime  we  had  a  Repeal  Move- 
ment, which  was  a  constitutional  movement. 

ENFORCED  STARVATION  POLICY  PRODUCES 
FAMINE 

Then  we  had  the  Republican  movement  of  1848,  following  the 
famine.  That  is  what  was  technically  known  as  a  famine,  but  it 
was  not  a  famine  at  all.  It  was  a  starvation  policy  enforced  by 
England. 

Q.  Mr.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  During  that  time  was  there  plenty  of 
food  in  Ireland? 

A.  Plenty.  There  was  food — corn  and  meat — to  the  value  of 
fifteen  million  pounds  a  week  sent  out  of  Ireland.  And  if  Ireland 
really  had  a  government  of  its  own  and  there  was  a  scarcity  of 
food,  the  first  thing  that  government  would  do  would  be  to  close 
the  ports  and  prevent  the  shipping  of  food.  But  England  put  her 
armed  soldiers  at  the  ports  to  keep  them  open,  and  food  to 
the  value  of  fifteen  million  pounds  a  week  went  out  of  Ireland — 
that  would  be  nearly  $60,000,000  a  week  went  out  of  Ireland — 
while  over  a  million  people  died  of  famine. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  That  was  not  a  famine.  That  was  a  star- 
vation. 

A.     Exactly,  as  starvation  is  going  on  in  Ireland  today. 

Q.     Now  to  bring  it  down  to  date. 

A.  The  movement  of  1848  was  all  a  Republican  movement. 
That  was  entirely  a  Republican  movement.  And  surely  one  sees 
the  extraordinary  vitality  of  Ireland  when  a  famine  that  destroyed 
one  and  one-quarter  million  people  did  not  subjugate  them.  In  a 
year  after  that  they  were  in  arms  again. 

THE  FENIAN  MOVEMENT 

Again  in  1867  the  Fenian  movement  sprang  up,  and  that  move- 
ment was  suppressed  after  a  time.  Many  of  the  Fenians  fled  to 
America  and  lived  here  for  many  years;  and  about  the  last  of  them 
lives  now  in  New  York.  I'm  sure  that  many  of  those  listening  to 
me  have  heard  of  John  Devoy  as  the  last  man  connecting  the  present 
generation  with  the  other. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  did  the  Fenian  movement  differ  from 
the  others? 

A.  Not  at  all,  or  it  differed  only  in  that  it  was  a  secret  move- 
ment.    They  had  a  secret  oath. 


188 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  it  have  religious  aspects? 

A.  Yes.  On  the  ground  that  it  was  a  secret  society  with  a  secret 
oath,  many  of  the  bishops  condemned  it,  and  that  frightened  many 
of  the  people  away. 

Q.     How  about  having  Protestants  in  the  ranks? 

A.     Oh,  there  were  many  Protestants  in  the  ranks. 

Q.  There  never  was  any  difference  or  division  along  religious 
lines? 

A.  Never.  Never.  Insomuch  as  it  was  more  a  movement  of  the 
proletariat  it  was  more  Catholic  than  the  '98  movement  was,  because 
the  proletariat  were  always  more  Catholic.  And  for  that  reason 
it  was  more  largely  Catholic,  even  among  the  leaders,  .than  the  '98 
movement,  because  there  was  hardly  a  single  Catholic  leader  in 
the  '98  movement. 

Q.  What  various  Irish  national  movements  developed  after- 
wards, if  any,  that  could  not  be  said  to  be  strictly  along  constitu- 
tional  lines,   beginning    with   Sir   Isaac   Butt's   constitutional   move- 


PARNELL'S  GOAL  ABSOLUTE  INDEPENDENCE 

A.  Sir  Isaac  Butt  was  a  Protestant,  but  we  would  call  him  a 
very  strong  imperialist.  He  did  believe  in  home  rule  for  Ireland, 
and  started  a  home  rule  movement,  which  was  a  very  milk-and-water 
affair  indeed.  Then  Parnell  came  along.  Parnell  was  a  Protestant, 
as  Butt  was,  but  Parnell  took  up  the  movement  for  freedom  and 
liberty  from  the  Irish  point  of  view,  while  Butt  took  it  up  from  the 
standpoint  of  convenience  for  the  British  Empire.  I  think  Amer- 
icans understand  that  point  of  view.  Butt  did  not  want  the  Empire 
weakened.  Parnell  was  different.  He  thought  the  Irish  question 
was  really  and  truly  dominant,  and  that  Ireland  had  a  right  to  have 
a  voice  in  its  settlement.  Parnell  met  the  Fenian  leaders,  many  of 
them,  and  asked  their  permission  practically  to  try  a  constitutional 
movement  in  Westminster.  In  1829  Daniel  O'Connell  had  obtained 
the  right  to  have  Catholics  represented  in  Parliament.  And  Parnell 
said  it  would  be  better  to  use  this  right  and  see  what  could  be  done 
in  Westminster. 

Q.  Was  it  generally  known  that  Parnell,  as  far  as  his  effort 
for  complete  liberty  was  concerned,  did  work  in  harmony  with  the 
Irish  Republican  brotherhood? 

A.  Yes.  He  made  a  definite  agreement  with  them  to  stand  aside 
for  a  time  and  see  how  his  scheme  would  work.  And  he  gave  them 
a  definite  promise  that  if  after  a  certain  period  they  felt  that  they 


189 

were  obtaining  no  good  by  staying  at  Westminster,  he  would  go 
back  to  Ireland  and  work  there.  That  was  a  definite  promise  by 
Parnell  to  the  Fenians.  Before  he  started  his  movement  at  West- 
minster he  made  that  promise. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Did  the  Irish  people  ever  notice  anything 
in  the  statements  of  Parnell  publicly,  or  in  the  statements  he  made 
in  the  House  of  Commons,  that  would  indicate  that  he  was  willing 
to  place  any  positive  inhibition  on  or  suppress  efforts  at  complete 
independence? 

A.  No.  The  people  were  quite  confident  that  Parnell  meant 
absolute  independence  in  the  end,  and  that  Home  Rule  was  only  a 
stepping  stone.  And  Parnell  himself  said  over  and  over  again  that 
no  man  could  say  that  when  Ireland  got  Home  Rule,  we  would  not 
want  anything  more.  He  was  asked  over  and  over  again  to  give 
that  promise,  and  he  refused  to  give  it.  He  said:  "No  man  can  put 
bounds  to  the  onward  march  of  a  nation."  These  words  of  his  are 
historic,  and  that  was  his  answer  to  England  asking  him  to  give  a 
guarantee  that  if  Ireland  got  home  rule,  she  would  not  want  any- 
thing more. 

Q.     Was  there  any  change  in  the  Parnell  policy? 

A.  No,  Parnell  never  did  change  it.  Parnell  carried  on  that 
fight  by  means  of  obstruction.  You  can  see  that  there  was  no  chance 
to  go  on  with  obstruction  forever.  At  that  time  there  was  no  limit 
to  the  length  of  the  speech  a  man  could  make  in  the  House  of 
Parliament.  So  Parnell  said,  "Very  well,  if  you  will  not  pass  any 
Irish  legislation,  you  will  not  pass  any  English  legislation  either.'" 
And  then  the  whole  eighty  members  of  the  Irish  Party  began  to 
talk,  and  Parliament  did  not  pass  any  English  legislation.  Then 
they  brought  in  the  Cloture  Bill,  by  which  the  Speaker  could  stop 
debate  on  a  bill  at  the  end  of  the  day's  session.  Parnell  was  a  very 
much  hated  man.  He  adopted  a  policy  that  his  followers  could  not 
join  in  English  social  life  or  join  English  social  groups,  in  order 
to  keep  themselves  absolutely  uncontaminated  by  English  influence 
— which  was  a  very  wise  decision.  Then  they  tried  to  put  tempta- 
tion in  Parnell's  way,  and  Parnell  fell.  I  only  want  to  say  one 
thing  about  that:  after  the  judgment  was  given  against  Parnell,  there 
was  a  meeting  of  the  Irish  party  in  Room  Fifteen,  and  they  dis- 
cussed in  the  meeting  all  night  long  as  to  whether  they  should  ask 
Mr.  Parnell  to  resign.  They  decided  that  they  would  not;  that  the 
man's  private  life  was  his  own  affair,  and  that  he  was  doing  the 
duty  that  he  undertook  to  do  for  Ireland;  and  therefore  they  elected 
him  leader.  The  plan  was  a  disappointment  to  the  Unionists,  be- 
cause they  thought  the  Irish  leaders  would  be  so  terrified  of  what 


190 

people  might  say  in  Ireland  that  they  would  dismiss  Parnell.  Then 
Mr.  Gladstone,  who  posed  as  a  friend  of  Ireland— and  I  believe  was 
good  enough  in  his  own  way,  but  in  regard  to  Ireland  thought  it 
was  a  matter  of  territorial  dominion  and  sovereignty — Mr.  Glad- 
stone put  on  a  virtuous  air  and  said  he  could  not  have  any  alliance 
with  a  man  of  Parnell's  character.  That  frightened  the  Irish  mem- 
bers very  much,  because  they  counted  on  the  Liberal  alliance.  And 
Parnell  said  to  them:  "I  do  not  care  very  much  as  far  as  I  am  con- 
cerned, but  I  warn  you  that  if  you  allow  yourself  to  take  English 
dictation  now,  you  ruin  your  work  through  all  these  years."  But 
after  an  all  night  discussion  and  debate  he  was  asked  to  resign. 
That  caused  what  was  known  as  the  Parnell  split.  He  said  that 
if  they  had  asked  him  to  resign  at  the  first  meeting,  he  would  have 
resigned  at  once;  but  he  would  not  resign  because  of  a  charge 
given  them  by  an  English  statesman.     And,  of  course,  he  was  right. 

JOHN  REDMOND'S  DUAL  VOICE 

Eventually  Mr.  Redmond  became  head  of  the  Irish  party.  Mr. 
Redmond  as  a  young  man  was,  according  to  his  words  and  public 
expressions,  as  ardent  an  Irishman  as  my  brother.  But  he  did  not 
keep  up  Parnell's  policy  of  remaining  uncontaminated  by  English 
society;  and  gradually  he  seems  to  have  been  hypnotized  by  the 
imperial  idea,  and  he  began  to  speak  with  two  voices.  When  Mr. 
Redmond  came  over  to  Ireland  he  spoke  with  a  fairly  strong  voice. 
When  speaking  in  England  he  spoke  with  a  very  weak  voice.  He 
said,  at  the  latter  end  of  his  life,  words  amounting  to  this:  "I  only 
ask  you  for  Home  Rule.  We  would  not  dream  of  asking  you  for 
anything  that  would  injure  you  in  any  way  whatever.  And  any- 
thing endangering  English  freedom  or  the  British  Empire  we  will 
not  ask  you  for.  And,  therefore,  we  will  not  even  ask  you  for 
our  customs  and  excise."  When  Mr.  Redmond  said  that  he  did  not 
speak  for  the  Irish  people.  He  spoke  for  himself  and  for  a  very 
small  number  of  people  whom  we  in  Ireland  call  West  Britons — 
that  is,  those  who  ought  to  be  Irish,  but  are  very  anxious  to  re- 
main English.  We  call  them  West  Britons.  Mr.  Redmond  spoke, 
when  he  said  that,  not  for  the  Irish  nation.  The  Irish  nation  never 
agreed  with  him.  Never  once  in  any  speech  he  made  in  Ireland 
did  he  dare  to  say  anything  like  that.  The  Irish  people's  attitude 
always  was:  If  our  independence  is  going  to  hurt  the  British  Em- 
pire, so  much  the  worse  for  the  British  Empire.  They  have  no 
right  to  want  anything  that  is  inconsistent  with  the  rights  of  an- 
other nation.     The  people  began  to  get  very  angry  with  the  Na- 


191 

tionalist    party,    and   then    a   movement   started    in    Ireland    which 
was  called  the  Sinn  Fein  movement. 

EDUCATIONAL  SYSTEM  DESIGNED  TO  DENA- 
TIONALIZE  IRELAND 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  do  you  not  think  that  this 
would  be  a  good  way  to  come  at  this  Republican  movement,  to 
trace  your  own  movements  in  Ireland.  You  were  a  teacher  at 
this  time,  I  believe? 

A.     Yes,  I  have  been  a  teacher  since  1901,  when  I  left  college. 

Q.  And  you  might  state  to  the  Commission  briefly  the  general 
plans  of  the  educational  system  in  Ireland.  Are  you  a  teacher 
in  what  is  known  as  the  public  school?  Give,  if  you  will,  please, 
the  different  lines  on  which  the  educational  system  is  founded. 

A.  Our  educational  system  differs  greatly  from  yours.  I  may  not 
have  yours  very  correctly,  but  what  I  understand  by  public  schools 
in  America  are  those  financed  by  the  state,  to  which  all  people  of 
all  classes  can  go  free  of  charge;  that  in  addition  you  have  in 
America  a  good  many  private  schools;  that  these  are  mainly  for 
rich  people,  who  prefer  to  have  their  children  educated  separately; 
and  that  they  are  of  a  different  kind,  and  will,  perhaps,  give  a 
different  kind  of  education.     Is  that  not  so? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :     That  is  quite  broad. 

The  Witness:  Well,  in  England  what  you  call  public  schools  they 
call  board  schools.  Their  national  schools  are  schools  run  by  the 
Church  of  England,  and  all  other  denominations  as  well  as  the 
Church  of  England  can  have  their  private  schools,  which  can  get 
their  grant  from  the  state;  not  as  good  a  grant  as  the  board  schools 
get,  but  a  grant,  provided  they  confine  the  teaching  of  religion 
to  certain  hours  of  the  day. 

Q.  On  what  conditions  can  the  schools  get  the  government 
grant?     Is  it  based  on  examinations,  or  what? 

A.     Now  it  is  not  any  longer.     It  is  on  inspection. 

Q.     But  prior  to  the  war? 

A.  It  is  on  inspection,  and  has  been  for  some  time.  In  Ire- 
land we  have  what  is  called  the  National  Education  Act,  which 
is  the  most  unnational  thing  you  can  imagine.  The  National  Edu- 
cation Act  was  passed  in  1831.  The  object  was  to  allow  people 
of  all  classes  to  attend  schools.  It  was  the  very  first  time  that 
Catholics  were  allowed  to  be  educated.  There  was  another  Act 
passed  earlier  that  allowed  them  to  have  a  certain  amount  of 
education.     But  education  for  the  common  people  only  began  by 


192 

this  act  of  1831.  Previously  they  got  what  education  they  could 
get  illegally.  We  had  in  Ireland  what  we  called  hedge  schools,  be- 
cause the  master  sat  under  a  hedge.  He  taught  his  pupils  in  the 
open  air  because  he  had  no  school  house.  The  National  Educa- 
tion Act  passed  in  1831  was  passed  with  the  express  purpose — 
definitely  expressed — of  denationalizing  Ireland  and  anglicizing  it. 
And  in  connection  with  that  I  would  like  to  tell  you  a  little  story. 
You  have  all  heard  of  Sir  Walter  Scott's  poetry,  and  you  know 
that  he  has  written  a  little  poem  that  begins  like  this: 

Breathes  there  a  man  with  soul  so  dead 
Who  never  to  himself  has  said, 

"This  is  my  own,  my  native  land"; 
Whose  heart  hath  ne'er  within  him  burned 
As  home  his  footsteps  he  has  turned 

From  wandering  on  a  foreign  strand. 

And  it  goes  on  to  say  that  if  there  is  such  a  man,  he  should  go 
"down  to  the  vile  depths  from  which  he  sprung,  unwept,  unhon- 
ored,  and  unsung."  When  Archbishop  Whately,  the  Protestant 
Bishop  of  Dublin,  got  together  a  number  of  clerks  and  secretaries, 
and  got  them  to  help  him  compile  books  for  the  new  national 
schools,  he  found  among  one  of  the  books,  in  revising  them,  this 
extract.  It  was  to  go  into  one  of  the  books  for  the  national  schools. 
Of  course,  that  would  never  do,  even  if  it  was  copied  from  the 
best  English  school  books.  The  secretary  who  put  that  in  prob- 
ably lost  his  job.  Archbishop  Whately  said,  "What  a  stupid  thing 
it  was  to  put  that  into  the  books,  when  what  we  want  is  to  make 
these  Irish  children  forget  they  have  a  land."  And  he  substi- 
tuted for  it  a  rhyme  which  began : 

I  thank  the  goodness  and  the  grace 

That  on  my  birth  has  smiled, 
And  made  me  in  these  blessed  days 

A  happy  English  child. 

Of  course  we  call  this  blasphemy.  We  do  not  thank  God  for  a 
lie. 

I  have  told  you  that  little  story  to  give  you  the  whole  tone  of 
the  education  in  those  so-called  national  schools.  It  was  abso- 
lutely forbidden  to  speak  a  word  of  Irish  within  the  walls  of 
the  school,  and  that,  mind,  to  children  who  could  speak  nothing 
else,  because  in  those  days  Ireland  was  all  Gaelic-speaking.     Even 


193 

the  children  were  whipped  in  school  if  they  did  not  make  haste 
and  pick  up  English.  In  addition  to  that,  no  word  of  Irish  his- 
tory was  allowed  to  be  taught  in  those  schools.  And  in  a  whole 
series  of  school  books  appointed  for  those  schools  all  over  the 
country,  Ireland  was  mentioned  twice.  On  one  occasion  the  Irish 
children  were  told  that  Ireland  was  an  island  lying  to  the  west 
of  Great  Britain;  and  in  the  other  place  they  were  told  that  Ireland 
had  been  visited  on  a  certain  date  by  her  gracious  majesty,  Queen 
Victoria.  And  that  is  the  education  the  Irish  children  growing  up 
in  the  middle  of  the  nineteenth  century  got. 

You  might  ask  me.  Why  did  the  Irish  people  accept  it?  The 
bishops  of  that  time,  with  the  exception  of  one  glorious  example, 
accepted  it  because  they  had  no  chance  to  get  at  their  children  to 
teach  them,  and  they  said,  It  is  better  for  us  to  teach  them  their 
religion  anyhow;  and  since  we  have  the  opportunity  of  teaching 
religion  for  the  first  time  without  hindrance,  let  us  accept  this 
Education  Act  with  all  its  great  drawbacks.  The  one  glorious 
bishop  who  stood  out  against  it  was  MacHale  of  Tuam.  He  said. 
"That  Education  Bill,  as  it  stands,  is  an  evil.  If  you  accept  it 
you  are  doing  no  good  to  religion  and  you  are  ruining  nationality." 
And  as  long  as  he  lived,  which  he  did  for  about  fifty  years  after 
this  act  was  passed,  he  refused  to  allow  a  single  national  school 
in  his  diocese.  Unfortunately  he  did  not  live  long  enough.  But 
that  is  the  sort  of  education  our  children  are  getting.  But  our 
children — if  you  will  let  me  use  the  word — of  the  better  class 
people — (I  hate  to  use  it  because  I  am  a  thorough  democrat,  but 
I  will  use  it  here) — these  children  attend  private  schools.  The 
better-off  people  send  their  children  to  be  educated  in  England, 
and  naturallv  thev  come  back  very  English. 

SECONDARY    EDUCATION     FINANCED     BY     DISES- 
TABLISHMENT FUND  AND  WHISKEY  TAX 

In  1869  the  Irish  Church  was  disestablished,  and  there  was  a 
great  deal  of  money  left  over.  And  there  was  one  and  a  quarter 
million  of  that — 

Q.     One  million  pounds  or  one  million  dollars? 

A.     0,  pounds — about  five  million  dollars  that  would  be. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Not  at  the  present  rate  of  exchange. 

The  Witness:  Will  you  allow  me  to  use  pounds,  because  it  i? 
difficult  for  me  to  think  in  terms  of  dollars?  Well,  a  great  deal 
of  money  was  devoted  to  education,  secondary  education,  educa- 
tion for  those  who  could  afford  to  stay  in  school  up  to  eighteen. 


194 

The  national  schools  only  prepared  up  to  fourteen.  For  those  who 
could  afford  to  go  on  to  the  university  these  secondary  schools 
were  endowed  from  part  of  the  money  left  from  disestablishing 
the  Irish  Church.  The  system  of  education  was  that  the  Board 
laid  down  a  certain  program.  Any  school  of  any  denomination 
could  teach  that  program,  and  might  enroll  themselves  as  an 
Intermediate  school  provided  they  had  seven  pupils.  They  got  a 
grant,  after  their  pupils  could  pass  this  examination,  which  was 
divided  into  various  grades.  In  the  beginning  they  did  very  well, 
because  there  were  not  very  many  children,  and  there  was  no 
system  of  crams.  But  as  the  number  of  children  increased  and  the 
money  did  not  increase,  of  course  the  tendency  was  that  the  prizes 
and  the  grant  had  to  be  divided  up  among  a  great  number  of 
people,  and  got  so  small  it  could  not  finance  education.  A  little 
more  money  was  given;  and  I  would  like  to  point  out  to  you  here 
where  this  money  came  from.  A  certain  proportion  of  the  whiskey 
tax  was  devoted  to  education.  The  result  was  this:  If  our  people 
were  sober,  there  was  very  little  money  for  education.  If  they  got 
drunk,  there  might  be  a  little  more.  But  the  total  sum  devoted  to 
education  in  Ireland  was  about  forty-five  thousand  pounds  a  year. 
That  education  became  a  cram  system.  There  were  certain  books 
prescribed.  Much  depended  upon  the  teacher;  but  nearly  all  the 
teachers  in  Ireland  at  the  present  day  were  brought  up  on  that 
system  themselves.     Cram  for  examinations;  no  real  development. 

ANGLICIZING  INFLUENCE  OF  SECONDARY 
SCHOOLS 

For  a  long  time  Irish — the  Gaelic  language — was  not  allowed 
at  all.  Irish  history  was  not  allowed.  I  may  as  well  tell  you, 
incidentally,  that  when  I  was  going  to  school  in  my  own  native 
city  of  Cork,  I  never  learned  one  line  of  Irish  history.  It  was 
only  about  two  years  before  I  left  school  and  the  history  class 
that  Irish  history  was  allowed,  with  much  fear  and  trembling, 
to  be  taught.  And  then  it  was  not  Irish  history,  but  it  was  the 
history  of  England  in  Ireland.  That  was  what  was  called  Irish 
history.  But  some  of  us  did  not  confine  ourselves  to  that.  We 
learned  a  little  more.  How  much  you  learned  depended  upon 
what  sort  of  a  family  you  came  from — what  England  would  call  a 
rebellious  strain.  Therefore  the  majority  of  the  people,  who  were 
in  the  hard  struggle  for  existence,  knew  nothing  about  Irish  his- 
tory. And  that  has  given  England  a  chance  to  say  the  Irish  people 
do  not  want  independence.     The  Irish  people  do  want  independ- 


195 

ence,  but  because  of  their  bad  education  they  do  not  know  how  to 
express  their  desires. 

Another  thing  I  would  like  you  to  know  about  education  in  the 
secondary  and  national  schools  is  that  there  is  one  set  of  people 
in  Ireland  that  were  not  there  in  Archbishop  MacHale's  time.  They 
refused  to  go  under  the  Board  of  National  Education.  They  were 
the  Christian  Brothers.  The  Christian  Brothers  refused  it  because 
you  had  to  confine  religious  education  in  schools  to  one-half  hour 
a  dav,  and  you  had  to  use  books  appointed  by  the  national  board, 
and  those  books  omitted  all  mention  of  Irish  history,  about  Irish 
heroes,  or  a  single  word  about  a  martyr  or  a  saint  whatever.  And 
the  Christian  Brothers  would  not  have  that  system,  and  they  adopted 
books  of  their  own,  which  are  very  fine  books.  And  perhaps  the 
reason  that  the  men  of  Ireland  are  better  educated  and  know  more 
about  the  history  of  their  land  than  the  women  do,  is  that  the 
men  have  been  educated  by  the  Christian  Brothers  and  the  women 
have  been  educated  in  the  national  schools  or  anglicizing  secondary 
schools. 

Commissioner  Addams:    But  there  is  one  exception. 

The  Witness:  0,  Miss  Addams,  there  are  many  exceptions.  But 
I  am  talking  about  what  the  government  gave  us  and  not  what  we 
gave  ourselves. 

About  the  second  schools:  the  anglicizing  influence  of  the  sec- 
ondary schools  was  much  greater  than  the  anglicizing  influence  of 
the  national  schools,  because  it  was  fashionable  to  ape  England. 
And  there  was  a  certain  class  of  people  in  Ireland  who  were  the 
outcome  of  this  system  of  education.  I  think  they  probably  would 
be  much  worse  in  any  other  country  than  our  own.  But  they 
were  ashamed  to  be  Irish.  They  all  of  them  finished  their  educa- 
tion in  England,  and  they  were  so  happy  if  by  any  chance  they 
were  mistaken  for  Englishmen.  That  type  of  man  is  hopeless  in 
a  country.  And  you  have  no  idea  how  hard  we  had  to  fight  to 
kill  this  influence,  but  thank  God  it  is  dead. 

The  influence  of  all  the  secondary  schools  in  Ireland  made  it 
seem  fashionable  to  be  English.  So  when  the  Sinn  Fein  move- 
ment started  in  1905,  you  might  be  quite  sure  of  this,  that  the 
meaning  of  it  was  neither  understood  nor  appreciated  in  the 
schools — the  upper  class  schools,  the  fashionable  schools  of  Ire- 
land. The  system  in  those  schools  was  English.  It  was  an  angliciz- 
ing influence  entirely.  I  am  sorry  to  say  that  it  was  largely  car- 
ried on  by  religious  denominations,  by  the  nuns,  who  were  afraid. 
They  were  very  timid,  and  were  afraid  to  be  anything  except  con- 
ventional.     They    are    different    now,    of    course.      They    followed 


196  , 

suit  when  the  times  have  become  Republican.  And  even  then 
there  were  many  bold  exceptions.  But  that  was  the  run  of  the 
secondary  schools. 

THE  MEANING  AND  POLICY  OF  SINN  FEIN 

I  will  have  to  digress  from  the  educational  question  to  explain 
Sum  Fein.  Sinn  Fein  with  us  today  means  the  party  which  follows 
the  Republican  policy — what  Ireland  is  today.  I  have  seen  in 
American  papers,  for  instance,  "The  Sinn  Fein,"  as  if  Sinn  Fein 
were  a  people.  Now,  Sinn  Fein  is  a  policy,  as  you  have  the 
Democratic  policy  and  the  Republican  policy. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  We  do  not  have  it  now.  We  used  to 
have  it. 

The  Witness:  Like  we  used  to  have  West  Britons  in  Ireland? 
Well,  I  do  not  know  enough  about  your  policies  to  know  if  they 
are  a  good  thing  or  a  bad  thing,  but  if  you  Americans  want  it, 
that  is  your  business.  Now,  Sinn  Fein  is  a  policy,  but  the  Irish 
Republic  is  a  country.  Suppose,  for  instance,  I  asked  you  what 
nationality  you  were,  and  you  told  me  you  were  Democratic.  I 
am  quite  sure  that  your  countrymen,  your  fellow-citizens,  would 
resent  that  very  much.  A  Democrat  is  a  member  of  a  particular 
organization  or  a  particular  party.  Sinn.  Fein  is  a  policy,  but 
the  Irish  Republic  Government  is  the  authorized  recognized  gov- 
ernment of  the  Irish  people,  their  chosen  government.  And  so  we 
do  not  call  ourselves  Sinn  Feiners.  We  call  ourselves  Irish  Re- 
publicans, just  as  you  call  yourselves  Americans.  We  may  have 
a  Sinn  Fein  policy,  or  some  other  kind  of  policy,  within  our  own 
country. 

I  will  tell  you  where  the  confusion  comes.  When  Parnell  and 
Redmond  had  failed  to  secure  even  a  measure  of  freedom  for 
Ireland,  Arthur  Griffith,  who  was  founder  of  the  Sinn  Fein  policy 
and  vice-president  of  our  Republic  today,  took  a  different  policy. 
He  wanted  a  reversion  to  the  Grattan  Parliament  of  1782,  with 
proper  representative  franchise  and  an  executive  which  would  be 
subject  to  Parliament.  Grattan's  Parliament,  while  it  did  a  great 
deal  of  good,  had  none  of  these.  It  had  a  strictly  confined  fran- 
chise, and  the  executive  was  under  the  control  of  England.  He 
said,  We  are  to  reach  this  goal  by  a  policy  of  self-reliance.  He 
took  the  name  Sinn  Fein,  which  simply  is  the  Irish  word  for 
"ourselves."  And  he  took  it  as  a  policy  of  self-reliance.  Up  to 
that  time  we  had  been  working  at  Westminster  for  a  very  long  time 
to  see  what  we  could  get  out  of  Westminster.     We  also  had  our 


197 

eyes  on  America  to  see  if  there  would  be  anything  good  coining 
from  that  quarter.  During  1798,  when  we  were  ;it  open  war  with 
England,  we  looked  to  the  French  for  help.  But  Griffith  said. 
There  is  no  good  casting  your  eyes  to  the  ends  of  the  earth.  Only 
the  fools*  eves  arc  there.  Vie  can  do  a  good  deal  more  at  home. 
We  can  develop  our  industries.  We  can  study  the  Irish  language. 
The  Gaelic  League  had  started  some  years  before  that.  He  made 
the  main  plank  in  his  policy   abstention  from  Westminster. 

That  was  the  policy  of  Sinn  Fein.  The  reversion  to  Grattan's 
Parliament  meant  a  separate  Parliament  for  Ireland.  He  took 
Parnell's  view  that  you  cannot  put  bounds  to  the  onward  march 
of  a  nation.  But  although  he  wanted  a  different  Parliament,  there 
would  be  the  same  king  over  both  countries.  That  was  the  original 
policy  of  Sinn  Fein.  The  name  has  stuck  to  what  has  been  the 
policy  of  the  Irish  people  all  along — utter  and  entire  independence. 
Certain  of  us  in  Ireland  have  never  joined  Sinn  Fein.  My  brother 
was  never  a  member  of  any  Sinn  Fein  club,  simply  because  it  was 
not  expressly  Republican.  It  was  implied.  But  he  took  the  atti- 
tude that  the  mere  repression  of  the  statement  that  we  are  aiming 
at  a  Republic  is  a  compromise.  And  we  stand  where  Wolfe  Tone 
stood.  So  he  said,  We  will  not  join  Sinn  Fein.  But  he  helped  it, 
especially  the  policy  of  the  development  of  Irish  industry.  He 
worked  for  the  policy  of  Sinn  Fein  without  ever  declaring  himself 
a  Sinn  Feiner. 

Q.     How  old  was  your  brother  when  he  died? 

A.     Forty. 

THE  MACSWINEY  FAMILY  ALWAYS  REPUBLICAN 

Q.  I  think  it  might  be  well  to  develop  your  statement  along  that 
line,  by  a  statement  of  your  brother's  activities. 

A.     I  am  afraid  I  would  be  too  long. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  might  say  to  the  Commission  that,  riding 
over  on  the  train  with  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  found  she  knows  much 
more  about  this  than  any  of  us.  She  asked  me  to  make  suggestions 
from  time  to  time  that  might  keep  the  narrative  in  order  and  get 
everything  in.  I  just  made  that  suggestion.  Of  course,  if  it  does 
not  fit  there,  Miss  MacSwiney  should  go  on. 

The  Witness:  The  only  reason  I  hesitated  was  that  the  Com- 
mission might  sit  for  a  whole  week  and  ask  me  questions  and  yet 
not  get  to  the  end  of  the  story.  I  am  at  your  disposal  as  long  as 
you  like. 

In    regard    to    my    brother's    activities.      Perhaps    that    would    be 


198 

interesting  just  at  this  point.  I  might  say  that  we  have  always  been 
Republican.  Not  only  all  our  lives,  but  all  our  generations.  We 
came  down  from  the  north  of  Ireland,  where  our  family  originally 
came  from  in  the  thirteenth  century,  and  we  settled  in  County 
Cork  in  the  fourteenth  century.  And  I  think  there  are  very  few 
generations  or  fights  since  when  we  have  not  given  some  sort  of 
account  of  ourselves.  Writing  in  the  days  of  Elizabeth,  a  certain 
one  of  her  ministers,  Sir  Henry  Bagenal,  said  of  Ireland — he 
wanted  at  that  time  to  capture  the  young  Red  Hugh  O'Donnell,  the 
chieftain  of  the  north,  and  he  was  very  exercised  because  the  leader 
of  the  MacSwineys  of  that  day  was  the  guardian  and  foster-father 
of  young  Red  Hugh.  In  those  days  in  Ireland  there  was  the  prac- 
tice of  fosterage.  It  meant  that  the  sons  of  the  chief  of  one  family 
were  sent  to  the  chiefs  of  other  tribes  to  be  educated.  And  young 
Red  Hugh  O'Donnell  had  been  sent  to  MacSwiney  of  the  Battle 
Axes  to  be  educated,  because  he  was  the  greatest  chieftain  of  the 
North.  The  MacSwineys  were  always  a  great  military  power  there. 
So  Sir  Henry  Bagenal,  writing  to  Queen  Elizabeth,  said,  "Your 
Majesty,  if  I  could  only  manage  to  get  rid  of  this  MacSwiney,  I 
would  be  able  to  capture  Red  Hugh.  I  think  I  have  a  plan." 
He  had  a  plan.  He  succeeded  in  capturing  him  by  duplicity.  It 
is  not  necessary  to  tell  you  that  story. 

Besides  being  great  military  chieftains,  the  MacSwineys  had 
great  characters  even  in  those  days.  I  hope  you  will  not  think  me 
blowing  a  family  trumpet,  but  since  it  is  a  great  many  generations 
back,  it  will  not  make  any  difference.  They  had  a  characteristic 
even  in  those  days  of  being  honest,  and  an  honest  person  is  at  a 
disadvantage  in  dealing  with  rogues,  because  they  give  the  others 
credit  for  being  honest,  too.  So  this  MacSwiney,  being  honest, 
went  aboard  an  apparently  harmless  merchant  ship  that  came  to 
port.  He  went  on  board  to  pay  a  friendly,  courteous  visit  to  the 
captain.  While  they  were  in  the  cabin  on  this  friendly,  courteous 
visit,  the  hatches  were  closed  down  on  them,  the  anchors  loosened, 
and  they  were  taken  prisoners  to  Dublin,  which  was  about  the 
only  place  Queen  Elizabeth  had  for  herself  in  Ireland.  That  was 
the  history  of  the  MacSwineys  of  those  days. 

The  family  eventually  came  south  and  settled  in  County  Cork, 
and  there  is  hardly  a  place  in  the  whole  barony  of  Muskerry,  as 
they  called  that  country  in  those  days,  where  our  family  had  not 
built  castles.  There  are  still  ruins  all  around  County  Cork  be- 
longing to  them.  In  Cromwell's  time  we  went  the  way  of  all  the 
Irish  chieftains.  Cromwell  took  the  land  and  gave  it  lo  one  of 
his  troopers  named  Sweet.     And  the  Sweets  held  that  land,   and 


199 

some  of  this  family  hold  it  still.  They  thus  became  the  so-called 
gentry. 

All  the  Irish  chieftains,  when  they  were  dispossessed  of  their 
land,  hated  to  go  away.  They  preferred  to  work  as  laborers  on 
the  meanest  little  farm  than  to  leave  Ireland  and  their  native  soil. 
There  is  an  extraordinary  attachment  to  the  very  sod  of  the  earth 
in  an  Irish  heart.  These  people  did  not  leave  the  county.  They 
took  service  as  laborers,  and  became  small  farmers  when  it  got 
possible  to  buy  a  farm,  and  stayed  there.  There  actually  is  at  this 
present  day  a  direct  descendant  of  the  MacSwineys  living  on  a  farm 
on  the  grounds  where  are  the  ruins  of  his  ancestral  castle.  He  is 
also  Terence  MacSwiney. 

Chairman  Howe:  Just  a  moment.  I  notice  Senator  Gore  in  the 
rear  of  the  hall.      (Applause.) 

As  you  all  know,  no  man  in  the  United  States  Senate  has  been 
interested  more  earnestly  in  human  questions  than  Senator  Gore. 
We  would  like  to  have  him  come  forward.  (Continued  applause. 
Senator  Gore  is  ushered  to  the  Commissioners'  bench.) 

Chairman  Howe:    Miss  MacSwiney  will  proceed. 

THE  SPIRIT  OF  THE  FAMILY 

The  Witness:  You  have  been  kind  enough  to  ask  me  for  some  of 
our  family  history.  I  do  not  want  to  spend  too  long  on  it.  I 
want  to  get  my  brother's  particular  part.  Just  before  the  famine 
period  our  family  moved  to  Bandon.  My  grandfather  was  mar- 
ried twice.  They  were  there  during  the  period  of  the  famine. 
My  grandmother  used  to  tell  me  very  many  stories  when  I  was  a 
child.  I  am  using  the  word  famine  because  it  is  so  familiar  to 
say  it  like  that,  but  I  want  to  emphasize  it  once  more  that  it  was 
not  a  famine,  in  a  country  where  the  fields  were  growing  beautiful 
rich  corn  and  where  there  was  meat  and  butter  in  plenty.  There  is 
no  famine  in  that  country.  It  was  organized  starvation.  My  father 
was  only  a  little  boy,  only  a  child,  at  the  time  of  the  famine.  When 
he  was  growing  up  they  removed  to  the  City  of  Cork.  Of  course 
you  can  understand  the  want  of  employment  there  is  in  an  unde- 
veloped country.  Some  of  you  have  been  in  our  country  and 
you  must  have  noticed  how  undeveloped  it  is — no  factories;  even 
the  very  fields  undeveloped.  The  cause  of  that  is  not  laziness,  as 
you  have  been  often  told.  It  is  a  fact  that  we  have  not  been  allowed 
to  develop  our  country.  So  my  father  went  to  England  and  worked 
there  for  a  while,  and  there  got  married.  He  returned  to  Ireland 
somewhere  about   1880  or  1881.  I  am  not  sure  of  the  dates.     He 


200 

joined  his  brother-in-law  in  a  partnership  as  a  tobacco  manufac- 
turer. The  partnership  did  not  turn  out  very  successfully,  and  he 
started  afterwards  himself,  but  again  he  did  not  succeed  very  well. 
Matters  were  against  him,  and  so  the  business  was  closed.  My 
father  died  when  we  were  children.  I  think  the  last  time — he  died 
away  from  home,  where  he  had  to  go  for  his  health,  and  my  brother 
Terence  was  only  about  eight  when  he  saw  his  father  for  the  last 
time.  But  even  so,  there  were  a  lot  of  old  family  customs  which 
he  had  put  into  us  children — the  spirit  of  the  family.  One  of  them 
was  that  every  Sunday  afternoon  we  had  to  learn  a  little  poem 
about  Ireland  for  my  father.  We  generally  stood  with  our  backs 
to  the  dining-room  door,  and  recited  for  him.  Terence  was  the 
last  that  ever  did  that.  He  was  only  eight  when  my  father  died. 
We  had  to  learn  some  little  poem  and  it  had  to  be  about  Ireland. 
We  learned  T.  D.  Sullivan's  poems;  Thomas  Davis'  poems,  all 
of  them  of  an  insurrectionary  character.  And  I  think  that  the  more 
fiery  the  poem  was,  the  bigger  reward  we  got.  I  remember  get- 
ting a  bright,  new  sixpence  when  I  recited  "The  Death  of  Owen 
Roe  O'Neill."  It  was  a  very  fiery  poem,  indeed,  and  two  whole 
verses  were  taken  up  with  curses  on  England.  I  was  about  nine 
when  I  recited  that.  My  mother  was  very  shocked,  and  I  heard 
her  say  in  an  undertone  to  my  father,  "Really,  that  child  should 
not  use  such  frightful  language."  He  said  he  didn't  think  it  would 
do  me  any  harm. 

EDUCATION  AND  EARLY  ACTIVITIES  OF  TERENCE 
MACSWINEY 

My  brother  went  to  school  to  the  Christian  Brothers,  but  he  was 
not  satisfied  with  it.  It  was  not  a  national  school,  as  has  been 
stated;  but  it  was  so  far  ahead  of  the  others  that  we  gave  them 
credit  for  having  the  only  Irish  schools  in  Ireland.  He  went  in 
for  the  Intermediate  examinations  and  got  exhibitions — that  is,  a 
money  prize  in  each  class.  He  left  school  when  he  was  about  six- 
teen and  went  into  business.  In  normal  times  and  in  less  strenuous 
conditions,  as  far  as  money  went,  he  would  have  remained  at 
school  and  entered  a  college  course,  and  would  have  become  a 
writer  or  a  poet.  But  he  had  to  leave  school,  because  the  family 
was  not  well  off,  and  entered  business.  He  did  not  like  business. 
And  he  educated  himself  and  was  able  to  take  a  university  degree, 
and  he  became  a  Bachelor  of  Arts.  Not  only  that,  but  he  did  a 
great  deal  of  writing  besides.  He  wrote  poems.  In  looking  through 
his  papers  after  his  death  I  came  across  the  letter  that   I  myself 


201 

wrote  him  congratulating  him  on  the  first  poem  that  was  published 
over  his  name.  He  became  very  interested  in  national  things. 
There  is  a  society  in  Cork  called  the  Celtic  Literary  Society.  1 
think  he  must  have  been  about  seventeen  when  he  was  one  of  the 
founders  of  that.  It  was  a  body  of  young  men  animated  by  the 
Republican  ideal.  They  used  to  meet  together  after  business  hours; 
they  read  and  wrote  essays,  and  brought  out  a  little  magazine  that 
circulated  among  a  certain  crowd.  And  that  Celtic  Literary  So- 
ciety did  develop  other  national  activities.  The  thing  that  stands 
most  to  its  credit  is  the  Irish  Industrial  Development  Associa- 
tion, which  is  one  of  the  things  those  young  men  started.  I  told 
you  that  he  never  joined  Arthur  Griffith's  Sinn  Fein  Society  be- 
cause it  was  not  primarily  for  Republican  independence,  but  he 
worked  along  that  line,  as  far  as  it  went,  and  with  one  or  two 
others  was  responsible  for  the  founding  of  the  Irish  Industrial 
Development  Association. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :    You  might  sketch  that. 

The  Witness:  It  was  really  a  society  strictly  non-political  and 
non-sectarian,  and  formed  for  the  especial  purpose  of  developing 
Irish  industries — to  make  the  people  of  Ireland, — who  had  been 
avoiding  Irish  goods  without  any  thought, — to  buy  Irish  goods 
wherever  they  could  get  them.  They  started  industries.  It  spread 
from  Cork  to  Dublin,  and  naturally  Dublin,  being  the  capital, 
became  the  center.  But  Cork  has  the  honor  of  starting  it.  Mr. 
Fawsitt,  who  is  now  the  Consul-General  of  the  Irish  Republic  here, 
was  secretary  in  Cork  for  many  years.  He  was  considered  the 
best  man  to  send  over  here  for  that  reason.  The  fact  that  we  have 
a  consul  here  today,  and  have  a  consul  in  almost  every  European 
country,  entirely  against  the  wishes  of  Great  Britain,  is  entirely 
due  to  my  brother  and  his  comrades  who  started  this  society  in 
Cork  in  1901,  I  think.  It  might  be  a  year  one  way  or  another. 
That  was  one  of  his  activities. 

GAELIC  LEAGUE  RENATIONALIZES  MINDS  OF 
PEOPLE 

Another  was  the  Gaelic  League.  This  was  a  society,  also  non- 
sectarian  and  non-political,  for  the  purpose  of  developing  the 
Irish  language  and  making  the  people  Irish-speaking  again.  The 
soul  of  a  people  is  expressed  in  its  langauge.  And  if  you  speak 
a  foreign  language  continuously,  you  will  naturally  develop  the 
soul  of  that  language  within  you.  The  great  anglicizing  power 
that  England  had  over  Ireland  was  in  that  she  had  almost  killed 


202 

the  Irish  language.  She  was  very  clever  in  her  propaganda.  It 
is  a  great  mistake  to  think  that  England  is  not  a  clever  nation. 
She  is  very  clever  and  very  insidious  in  her  propaganda.  She 
never  said  to  the  people  outright,  You  shall  not  speak  Irish.  But 
she  took  the  children  and  educated  it  out  of  them.  There  is  a 
little  verse  about  the  truth  coming  out  in  spite  of  oneself,  like 
the  story  I  told  you  of  Archbishop  Whately  and  the  verse  of  Sir 
Walter  Scott.  When  Lloyd  George  said  the  other  day,  when  Irish 
atrocities  were  mentioned  in  the  House  of  Commons,  that  those 
things  will  happen  in  a  state  of  war,  he  thereby  admitted  that 
there  was  a  state  of  war  in  Ireland.  And  so  you  get  the  truth  out 
like  that  occasionally  in  a  moment  of  high  pressure. 

About  the  Gaelic  League.  We  wanted  to  renationalize  the  minds 
of  the  people,  and  that  could  best  be  done  by  the  Gaelic  language. 
And  so  classes  all  over  the  country  started  up  for  the  teaching 
of  Gaelic.  Old  men  and  young  men  who  knew  the  Gaelic  language 
well,  v/herever  they  could  be  found,  were  brought  into  the  cities 
and  set  to  work  as  teachers.  You  could  see  them  night  after  night 
in  stuffy  rooms, — mainly  because  most  of  these  people  were  poor. 
They  had  no  money  back  of  them  to  help  their  propaganda.  They 
worked  hard  during  the  day,  and  at  night  sat  around  the  table 
there  in  these  little  rooms  and  studied  Gaelic  and  made  them- 
selves Gaelic  speakers. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  to  what  extent  in  the  last 
ten  or  fifteen  years  has  the  speaking  of  the  Gaelic  language  been 
extended  among  the  Irish  people? 

A.  I  could  not  give  you  the  exact  statistics,  but  it  has  devel- 
oped very  wonderfully.  For  instance,  when  those  young  men 
began  to  learn  the  Gaelic  language,  they  were  looked  upon  as 
curios.  Their  own  people  could  not  understand.  They  said,  What 
is  the  use  of  that  outlandish  thing?  But  they  persevered,  and  now 
today  the  person  who  cannot  speak  Gaelic  is  ashamed  of  himself 
or  herself. 

Q.  It  is  then  exceptional  to  find  anyone  who  cannot  speak 
Gaelic? 

A.  It  is  the  exception  to  find  anyone  who  is  not  trying.  It  is 
very  easy  to  find  some  who  cannot  hold  a  good  conversation  in 
Gaelic. 

Q.  And  that  has  all  been  acquired  through  private  instruction? 
There  has  been  no  public  instruction? 

A.  None  whatever  at  first.  But  they  forced  the  Irish  language 
into  the  schools.  They  started  a  propaganda  in  the  newspapers 
and  succeeded  in  getting  Gaelic  into  the  schools.     But  it  is  taught 


203 

as  a  foreign  language,  and  in  our  own  country!  In  our  own 
schools  our  own  language  is  taught  as  a  foreign  language!  The 
development  of  Gaelic  today  was  caused  by  a  handful  of  enthu- 
siasts who  had  the  idea  and  persevered.  The  Gaelic  League  was 
non-sectarian  and  non-political,  and  they  got  into  it  a  good  many 
people  who  were  interested  in  the  language,  perhaps,  from  an 
historical  point  of  view,  perhaps  from  a  literary  point  of  view;  and 
these  people  joined  in  because  it  was  non-secretarian  and  non- 
political.  But  those  who  remained  and  made  themselves  speakers 
of  the  language  had  the  right  idea,  the  right  Irish  idea  behind  them. 

COUNTERED  ENGLISH  PROPAGANDA 

In  addition  to  that,  my  brother  aided  a  great  many  other  activi- 
ties. There  was  considerable  English  propaganda  going  on.  These 
young  men  started  themselves  to  counteract  this  propaganda.  Part 
of  this  English  propaganda  consisted  of  visits  of  royal  personages 
to  Ireland.  When  these  royal  persons  were  coming,  there  was 
always  a  great  effort  to  get  loyal  addresses  from  corporations 
and  like  bodies.  That  succeeded  for  very  many  years.  Then  this 
body  of  young  men  took  it  upon  themselves  to  see  that  that  did  not 
succeed  any  more.  In  1906  or  1907,  when  the  late  King  Edward 
was  visiting  Ireland,  they  had  a  little  room  up  over  the  street, 
and  they  hung  out  a  black  flag  instead  of  the  union  jack.  They 
hissed  and  booed  a  great  deal.  Of  course,  needless  to  say,  the 
police  were  down  on  them,  but  they  did  not  care  about  that.  They 
took  good  care  to  see  that  the  corporations  did  not  pass  a  loyal 
address,  and  the  corporations  did  not. 

All  these  things  are  small,  but  it  is  out  of  those  that  our  success 
has  come  today.  Not  that  the  soul  of  Ireland  was  not  always 
Republican. — I  should  like  to  get  that  into  your  heads;  but  it  is 
because  it  is  more  successfully  Republican.  As  Mr.  Griffith  said 
in  a  message  to  some  people  in  America,  "Today  is  our  Valley 
Forge;  tomorrow  will  be  our  Yorktown."  But  if  I  am  not  mis- 
taken, at  your  Valley  Forge  the  soldiers  had  to  bear  the  brunt 
of  the  suffering.  But  in  our  Valley  Forge  the  women  and  chil 
dren  have  to  bear  the  brunt  of  the  sufferings.  But  our  turn  is 
coming  tomorrow,  as  surely  as  yours  came. 

That  represents  the  activities  of  my  brother. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  I  ask  if  the  telegram  that  came 
from  the  Cork  Chamber  of  Commerce,  that  came  to  this  country  to 
protest  against  ships  not  stopping  at  Queenstown,  was  that  a  part 
of  your  brother's  movement? 


204 

A.     Yes,  they  started  that,  but  it  was  years  afterwards. 

Q.  But  after  this,  this  Commission  came  to  America  of  which 
Mr.  Fawsitt  was  a  member,  and  it  is  as  a  result  of  their  efforts  that 
there  is  a  line  of  ships  running  to  Ireland  such  as  we  have  today? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  this  work  was  or  was  not  a  good  thing 
for  the  industries  of  Ireland? 

A.  Of  course,  it  has  made  our  industries  much  more  pros- 
perous. It  has  given  employment  to  hundreds  of  thousands  of 
people.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was  out  of  the  Industrial  Devel- 
opment Association  that  the  cooperative  creamery  movement  was 
started  by  Sir  Horace  Plunkett.  Everybody  realized  that  the 
country  should  be  developed,  and  they  started  where  they  could. 
And  then  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  started  his  creameries  all  over  the 
country,  which  the  English  are  now  burning  to  ruin  the  industry. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Where  were  we? 

CARSON   INCITES   ULSTER  TO   REBELLION 

A.  I  am  coming  to  the  Volunteer  movement.  You  remember 
that  there  was  a  Home  Rule  Bill  introduced  in  Parliament  in  1912, 
one  of  many.  It  was  in  the  hope  of  stopping  all  this  activity 
and  getting  the  people  to  accept  definitely  Home  Rule  in  the 
British  Empire,— which  would,  of  course,  leave  England's  hands 
in  our  pockets  all  the  time.  It  was  absolutely  no  use,  that  Home 
Rule  Bill  of  1912,  except  that  it  would  be  centering  Irish  inter- 
ests in  Dublin  instead  of  London.  I  said  that  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith's 
policy  in  the  old  days  was  abstention  from  Westminster.  West- 
minster, of  course,  means  the  English  Houses  of  Parliament.  The 
only  good  that  a  Home  Rule  Bill  would  have  done  would  be  that 
the  center  of  gravity  would  have  been  shifted  from  London  to  Ire- 
land. That  would  have  had  a  very  great  effect.  The  people  would 
have  said  then,  Why  should  we  have  so  little  when  we  might  have 
had  more?  Sir  Edward  Carson  said  he  did  not  want  Home 
Rule.  He  started  in  1913  the  idea  of  forcible  resistance  to  Home 
Rule.  He  said,  "Ulster  will  fight  and  Ulster  will  be  right."  He 
said  a  great  many  other  things.  The  main  thing  is  that  he  got 
guns  and  ammunition,  and  he  got  them  from  Germany.  He  also 
said,  We  will  not  come  under  a  Catholic  government,  and  if 
the  English  people  throw  us  over,  we  will  enroll  ourselves  under 
the  greatest  Protestant  nation  in  the  world,  under  the  German 
nation."  He  said  he  would  invite  the  German  emperor  over  himself 
if  the  English  forced  Home  Rule  upon  them. 


205 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Are  these  things  matters  of  public  record? 

A.  0,  yes,  absolutely.  They  are  in  all  the  English  papers  and 
Irish  papers  of  the  time.  You  will  find  them  in  book  form,  Sir 
Edward  Carson's  statements.  They  have  been  collected  together  by 
an  Irish  Republican  and  put  into  book  form  and  called,  "The 
Grammar  of  Anarchy."  When  Sir  Edward  Carson  made  those 
statements,  he  got  something  like  two  million  pounds  from  Eng- 
land for  propaganda,  and  also  the  promise  that  the  English  Tories 
would  fight  with  them.  He  also  stirred  up  a  revolt  at  the  Curragh 
camp,  and  the  British  officers  in  the  Curragh  camp  said  they  would 
not,  if  they  were  ordered,  go  and  put  down  a  revolution  in  the 
Covenanters'  camp.  They  were  called  Covenanters  because  they 
covenanted  together  that  they  would  not  have  Home  Rule;  they 
would  have  the  Castle  code.  We  were  very  happy  when  we  knew 
what  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  doing.  His  statements  have  been 
collected  in  book  form,  as  I  said.  One  Sinn  Feiner  got  some- 
thing like  six  months'  imprisonment  for  having  in  his  possession 
seditious  literature,  and  the  only  seditious  literature  he  had  in  his 
possession,  besides  a  few  newspapers,  was  Sid  Edward  Carson's 
statements. 

IRISH  VOLUNTEERS  ORGANIZE  TO  RESIST 
AGGRESSION 

Sir  Edward  Carson  started  the  Volunteers.  There  was  always 
an  Act  in  Ireland  that  you  must  not  have  arms  in  your  possession. 
It  was  not  enforced,  however.  Sir  Edward  Carson  succeeded  in 
getting  a  large  quantity  of  arms  presently.  We  looked  on  and 
said  nothing.  We  let  Sir  Edward  Carson  and  his  Volunteers  get 
along  splendidly.  If  we  could  have  patted  him  on  the  back,  we 
would  have  told  him  to  go  ahead.  He  went  ahead  a  good  while. 
And  then  our  people  in  the  south  began  to  say  publicly,  Well,  of 
course,  if  Sir  Edward  Carson  is  getting  armed  for  a  march  on 
Cork,  we  will  have  to  arm  also.  And  then  they  started  the  Irish 
Volunteers.  England  was  in  a  fix.  She  had  patted  Sir  Edward 
Carson  on  the  back  when  he  formed  the  Ulster  Volunteers.  Eng- 
lish societies  had  been  organized  to  subscribe  money  for  drums 
for  these  Ulster  Volunteers.  The  English  Government  had  looked 
on  with  a  more  or  less  benevolent  eye.  And  then  if  she  had  said, 
There  must  be  no  Irish  Volunteers,  the  world  would  have  said, 
That  is  not  impartial.  But  within  one  week  of  our  starting  the 
Irish    Volunteers,    the    Arms    Act   was    enforced    and    the    Govern- 


206 

ment  said,  No  arms  in  Ireland.  Within  one  week!  Sir  Edward 
Carson  had  been  getting  arms  for  several  months. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  date  was  this? 

A.  This  was  somewhere  in  the  early  days  of  1914,  in  the  spring, 
before  the  War.     He  got  a  boat 

Q.     Had  the  Home  Rule  Bill  passed  passed  Parliament? 

A.  It  had  passed  the  House  of  Commons  in  1912,  but  on  ac- 
count of  the  House  of  Lords  it  had  been  suspended  for  two  years. 

Q.     It  passed  the  House  of  Commons  in  1912? 

A.  Yes,  and  it  went  to  the  House  of  Lords,  and  the  House  of 
Lords  threw  it  out. 

Q.     What  date  was  it  passed? 

A.     In  1914. 

Q.     After  the  War? 

A.     After  the  War,  yes;  after  the  Recruiting  Act. 

Q.  But  it  was  known  in  1914  that  it  would  be  passed, — it  was 
known   before  the  War? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  that  these  preparations  that  were  made  were  in  prepara- 
tion for  the  Act? 

A.     Yes. 

GUN-RUNNINGS    AT    LARNE    AND    HOWTH    SHOW 
ENGLAND'S   BIAS 

In  the  spring  of  1914  a  ship  loaded  with  arms  set  out  from 
Germany  for  Sid  Edward  Carson.  The  English  government  knew 
perfectly  well  what  was  being  done,  and  that  those  arms  were 
going  to  Sir  Edward  Carson.  There  was  a  little  camouflage  done. 
The  boat  started  with  one  name  from  Hamburg  and  was  stopped 
in  midocean  and  repainted  and  renamed,  and  came  into  Larne, 
which  is  one  of  the  Orange  ports  up  there.  The  policemen  are 
all  Orangemen.  They  were  all  sympathetic  with  Sir  Edward  Car- 
son. It  was  absolutely  contrary  to  law,  of  course,  but  that  made 
no  matter.  The  guns  were  safely  landed  in  Larne  and  safely 
stored.  And  the  next  morning  it  was  all  over  the  English  and 
Irish  press.  The  English  Parliament  held  up  their  hands  in  horror. 
It  was  a  very  illegal  act,  said  Mr.  Asquith,  but  he  made  no  motion 
to  punish  that  act.  Well,  we  will  take  a  good  example  from  peo- 
ple when  we  get  it;  and  as  we  followed  the  Irish  Volunteers  after 
the  Ulster  Volunteers,  we  were  not  too  proud  to  follow  Sir  Edward 
Carson  in  gun-running.  And  the  last  week  in  July,  1914,  the 
Howth  gun-running  took  place.     I  was  in  England  at  the  time  on  a 


207 

little  holiday.  The  Howth  gun-running — now  notice  the  difference. 
The  Ulster  gun-running  was  in  support  of  what  England  wanted. 
She  was  forced  to  pass  the  Home  Rule  Bill  because  she  had  to 
take  the  lesser  of  two  evils.  So  she  allowed  those  guns  into  I  Ister. 
But  when  we  started  gun-running  she  knew  that  what  we  said,  we 
meant,  and  therefore  our  gun-running  had  to  be  stopped.  Well, 
it  was  not.  Our  people  got  in  quite  a  number  of  guns  that  day. 
In  spite  of  a  regiment  of  soldiers  and  all  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary that  were  available,  the  guns  were  not  captured.  But 
several  men,  women,  and  children  were  shot  down  on  the  streets 
of  Dublin  bv  the  soldiers  returning  empty-handed  from  Howth. 
That  was  the  massacre  of  Bachelors'  Walk,  which  took  place  exactly 
one  week  before  the  declaration  of  war  on  the  continent  and  two 
weeks  before  England  declared  it. 

That  shows  you  whether  England  wants  to  be  impartial.  She 
tries  to  say  that  she  wants  to  treat  the  north  and  south  alike. 
I  could  give  you  a  hundred,  a  thousand  examples  if  time  permitted 
to  show  you  that  she  never  does, — instances  of  this  kind.  Then 
came  the  War. 

VOLUNTEERS  DECLARE  FOR  A  REPUBLIC 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  These  Volunteers  meantime  had  organized 
all  over  Ireland. 

A.  All  over  Ireland.  But  there  was  this  against  them.  Mr. 
Redmond  set  his  face  against  any  volunteers  whatever.  He  wanted 
to  keep  to  the  Constitutional  movement.  At  the  time  the  Volun- 
teers were  started,  it  was  said  that  they  only  wanted  to  take  meas- 
ures against  Sir  Edward  Carson's  rebellion.  He  felt  that  it  was 
dangerous  to  let  the  young  men  take  things  into  their  own  hands. 

Q.     And  this  organization  was  called  the  Irish  Volunteers? 

A.     The  Irish  Volunteers. 

Q.  And  they  included  the  people  of  all  classes?  Did  they  in- 
clude women? 

A.  0  no,  only  the  men  were  armed.  But  the  women  formed 
the  Cumann  ria  niBan,  a  society  something  like  your  Red  Cross, 
a  patriotic  society  to  help  carry  on  the  work. 

Q.  Up  to  this  time,  Miss  MacSwiney,  was  there  a  Sinn  Fein 
movement,  or  was  this  simply  a  movement  among  the  people, — a 
movement  among  the  Irish  Volunteers  to  arm  and  protect  them- 
selves against  attacks  from  the  north? 

A.  Well,  this  was  a  movement  among  the  young  men  to  arm 
to  defend  themselves  for  Irish  rights. 


208 

Q.  Exactly.  But  up  to  this  time  there  was  no  movement  for 
independence? 

A.  No,  of  course,  that  was  the  idea  back  of  every  movement 
in  Ireland.  But  it  was  not  precisely  stated  until  the  first  Vol- 
unteer convention,  which  was  held  in  1914.  They  definitely  stated 
their  policy  as  a  Republic.  The  policy  of  the  Irish  Volunteers 
was  the  policy  of  the  Irish  Republic,  a  continuation  of  the  fight  for 
freedom  that  had  been  always  going  on.  They  armed  themselves 
in  defense  of  the  rights  and  liberties  of  the  Irish  nation.  The 
women  joined  Cumann  na  m'Ban. 

REDMOND  DEMANDS  CONTROL  OF  THE 
VOLUNTEERS 

Q.  You  answer  my  question.  Now,  going  back  to  Redmond's 
position  before  the  outbreak  of  the  war? 

A.  Before  the  war  Redmond  disapproved  of  the  Irish  Volun- 
teers. He  sent  messages  and  letters  to  all  the  A.  0.  H.1  branches 
all  over  the  country  forbidding  them  to  join  the  Irish  Volunteers. 
But  that  is  where  I  would  like  to  point  out  to  you,  as  I  said 
awhile  ago,  that  the  policy  of  Ireland  was  always  Republican,  and 
when  they  found  that  a  leader  set  himself  against  Irish  inde- 
pendence, then  the  leader  fell  and  not  the  movement.  Mr.  Red- 
mond sent  orders  that  no  member  of  his  organization  was  to  join 
the  Irish  Volunteers.  But  they  joined  in  hundreds  and  thousands 
all  over  the  country.  So  that  by  June,  1914,  they  were  coming  in 
in  very  large  numbers,  and  Mr.  Redmond  began  to  see  that  he 
could  not  possibly  forbid  the  movement.  And,  therefore,  the  next 
step  was  to  control  it.  A  great  number  of  people,  though  they 
did  not  refrain  from  joining  the  Irish  Volunteers  at  the  bidding  of 
Mr.  Redmond,  believed  in  his  sincerity  and  in  his  desire  for  ulti- 
mate separation  from  England.  And  when  he  wanted  to  come  and 
control  the  movement,  they  didn't  see  any  reason  why  he  should 
not,  when  he  was  going  to  improve  it,  you  see.  So  he  demanded 
that  he  have  a  voice  in  the  councils  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  and  he 
demanded  a  number — twenty-five,  twenty-five  members  nominated 
by  him  to  sit  on  the  council.  A  great  many  were  against  giving 
him  that, — a  great  many,  the  majority,  in  their  hearts.  But  as  a 
matter  of  policy  they  felt  this:  if  we  refuse  to  allow  Mr.  Redmond's 
nominees  on  the  council  of  the  Irish  Volunteers,  we  will  imme- 
diately have  a  split,  which  of  all  things  should  be  avoided  at  the 

1  Ancient  Order  of  Hibernians. 


209 

present  moment.  And  so  the  majority  of  the  council  gave  in  and 
allowed  Mr.  Redmond  to  nominate  members  for  the  Irish  Volun- 
teers' council.  There  were  nine  who  opposed  it.  Of  those  nine 
there  were  many  who  lost  their  lives  in  Easter  Week.  1916.  What 
would  have  happened  if  they  had  gone  on?  The  whole  policy  of 
Mr.  Redmond  was  to  weaken  the  Volunteers.  He  got  a  number  of 
guns,  but  they  were  useless.  He  did  not  want  war.  He  didn't 
want  any  physical  force  in  Ireland.  We  knew  that  he  didn't  want 
it,  and  that  his  action  was  weakening  our  movement.  But  at  that 
time  it  would  have  been  worse  to  start  out  against  him  and  say, 
You  will  not  get  a  single  nominee  on  our  council. 

REDMOND'S  SUPPORT  OF  ENGLAND'S  WAR 
CAUSES  SPLIT 

When  the  war  came  Mr.  Redmond  started  as  recruiter-in-chief 
for  England. 

Q.     Senator   Walsh:    In   Ireland? 

A.  In  Ireland.  You  remember  Sir  Edward  Grey,  as  he  was  at 
that  time,  in  speaking  of  the  black  outlook  in  Europe  on  the  eve 
of  the  war,  spoke  of  Ireland  as  the  one  bright  spot,  because  he 
knew  that  Mr.  Redmond  sided  with  England  in  the  war,  and  he 
thought  that  Ireland  would  follow  Mr.  Redmond.  But  he  made 
a  mistake.  Ireland  was  furiously  and  indignantly  insulted  at 
being  called  the  one  bright  spot.  But  the  people  did  not  know  what 
was  going  on.  The  next  thing  was  that  stories  of  German  atrocities 
in  Belgium  began  pouring  in, — how  they  were  cutting  off  the  hands 
of  all  the  little  Belgian  children.  How  these  stories  were  believed 
is  a  mystery  to  me.  But  they  were  believed  largely  in  Ireland. 
Many  people  became  violently  anti-German,  and  because  anti- 
German,  pro-British.  That  is,  the  unthinking  people.  Those  of  us 
who  knew  something  of  history  knew  that  perhaps  ninety-five  per 
cent  of  the  stories  were  lies.  War  always  brings  atrocities.  There 
is  no  doubt  that  Germany  was  guilty  of  atrocities  in  the  recent 
war.  There  is  equally  no  doubt  that  England  committed  worse 
atrocities.  But  there  is  also  no  doubt  that  the  stories  told  in  Ire- 
land to  touch  the  kind  hearts  of  our  people  were  lies.  I  could 
give  you  many  instances  where  they  were  lies.  The  only  people 
who  were  not  deceived  by  them  were  the  poeple  who  knew  that  the 
stories  that  England  was  telling  about  German  atrocities  were 
absolutely  word  for  word  the  stories  she  was  telling  the  world  in 
1798  about  Irish  atrocities.  One  of  our  national  journals  printed 
one  week,  in  the  early  days  of  the  war,  in  one  column  the  stories 


210 

England  was  telling  Ireland  about  German  atrocities,  and,  in  a 
parallel  column,  the  stories  England  was  telling  the  world  about 
Irish  atrocities  in  1798.  And  we  who  knew  what  lies  the  stories 
of  1798  were,  concluded  logically  that  the  other  stories  were  lies, 
too.  But  you  must  remember  that  the  Irish  people  did  not  know 
their  own  history;  that  when  England  allowed  Irish  history  to  be 
taught  in  the  schools,  she  only  allowed  it  to  be  taught  in  books 
controlled  by  her.  Therefore,  the  people  of  Ireland  would  believe 
these  stories.  Some  of  them  may  have  been  true,  but  the  majority 
of  them  were  prevarications,  the  sort  of  English  propaganda  that 
we  had  been  fighting  for  centuries. 

Mr.  Redmond  came  over  and  stood  with  Mr.  Asquith,  or  who- 
ever was  Premier  at  the  time,  and  advised  the  Irish  people  to  go 
to  war  for  small  nations.  You  can  hardly  blame  us  for  being 
skeptical.  As  a  preliminary  measure,  they  passed  the  Home  Rule 
Act,  and  then  put  it  on  the  shelf  until  after  the  war,  and  said  it 
was  only  to  be  passed  with  an  amendment  clause  that  would  sat- 
isfy Ulster.  The  next  point  was  an  absolute  division  with  Mr. 
Redmond's  Volunteers,  the  National  Volunteers,  as  they  were  called, 
and  the  Irish  Volunteers.  Now,  because  a  great  many  of  those 
who  had  been  strongly  connected  with  the  Sinn  Fein  movement, 
which,  as  I  told  you,  was  a  constitutional  movement  when  it 
started, — a  great  many  of  those  who  had  been  constitutional  Sinn 
Feiners  had  immediately  joined  the  ranks  of  the  Irish  Volunteers, 
the  tag  got  on,  Sinn  Fein  Volunteers  versus  National  Volunteers. 
Redmond  called  his  the  National  Volunteers.  We  in  Ireland  called 
them  Redmondites.  But  the  general  public,  to  distinguish  be- 
tween them,  called  them  Nationalist  Volunteers  and  Sinn  Fein 
Volunteers.  The  Nationalist  followers  firmly  believed  with  Mr. 
Redmond  that  this  was  the  way  to  win  liberty  for  the  country. 
The  Irish  Volunteers  did  not.  Very  soon  the  National  Volunteers 
disappeared.  They  got  no  recruits.  The  recruits  went  into  the 
Irish  Volunteers. 

SUPPRESSION  OF  CIVIL  LIBERTIES  BEGINS 

So  matters  stood  until  1916.  There  was  a  great  deal  of  harassing 
work  going  on  in  the  meantime.  The  papers  were  suppressed  one 
after  another.  We  had  a  paper  called  Irish  Freedom,  which  ran 
for  some  months,  and  then  it  was  suppressed.  Generally  each  sup- 
pressed paper  would  appear  the  next  week  under  another  name. 
We  did  not  know  always  what  the  name  of  it  would  be,  but  we  knew 
its  sentiments.  There  were  many  Republican  papers  suppressed. 
My  brother  started  a  paper  called  Fiorina  Fail.     It  means  The  Army 


211 

of  Destiny.  From  the  word  Fianna  the  word  Fenian  has  come, 
because  they  were  the  army  of  the  great  Irish  hero,  Finn  MacCoole. 
All  that  time  the  suppression  of  papers  went  on,  people  were  pre- 
vented from  holding  meetings,  and  various  other  things. 

My  brother  was  one  of  the  very  first  Volunteers  in  Cork.  In 
regard  to  the  founding  of  the  Volunteers  in  Cork,  there  is  a  very 
interesting  story.  The  organization  was  founded  in  November, 
1913,  in  Dublin.  Eoin  MacNeil  and  other  people  came  down 
to  speak  at  the  inaugural  meeting  in  Cork.  I  have  told  you  that 
we  Republicans  were  very  much  pleased  when  we  saw  what  Sir 
Edward  Carson  was  doing,  because  it  gave  us  our  chance.  But 
we  rather  forgot  that  the  mind  of  the  country  was  not  educated 
up  to  that  point  of  view,  and  to  them  Sir  Edward  Carson  was 
anathema  because  he  was  opposing  Home  Rule.  Eoin  MacNeil 
forgot  that,  and  in  the  course  of  his  speech  he  said  Sir  Edward 
Carson  deserved  three  cheers  from  us  for  forming  his  Ulster  Vol- 
unteers. That  night  there  was  a  little  body  of  men  at  the  hall 
that  were  sent  there  for  the  purpose  of  making  a  row.  That 
little  remark  of  Eoin  MacNeil  gave  them  a  chance,  and  they  broke 
up  the  meeting.  The  Redmondite  papers  the  next  day  spoke  of 
the  awful  iniquity  of  calling  for  cheers  for  Sir  Edward  Carson, 
who  was  marching  on  Cork  to  put  us  to  death.  It  was  a  foolish 
remark  to  make,  because  psychologically  the  people  were  not  up 
to  it  at  that  time.  They  simply  looked  upon  Sir  Edward  Carson 
as  the  opponent  of  independence  and  Home  Rule.  That  retarded 
the  work  of  the  Volunteers  in  Cork  for  some  time,  and  they  did 
not  advance  as  quickly  as  they  did  in  Dublin. 

WOMEN  ORGANIZE  CUMANN  NA  M'BAN 

In  the  spring  of  1914  we  started  this  women's  side  movement, 
Cumann  na  m'Ban,  as  I  have  said,  like  Red  Cross  work,  and  we 
trained  the  minds  of  the  people  to  know  what  the  Republican 
movement  meant.  But  our  chief  work  was  to  support  the  Irish 
Volunteers  by  every  means  possible  in  their  fight  for  the  inde- 
pendence of  Ireland.  We  wanted  to  get  a  big  inaugural  meeting, 
and  we  succeeded  in  getting  a  big  inaugural  meeting,  which  really 
gave  the  Volunteers  a  big  chance  to  have  a  meeting  also.  Our 
meeting  was  a  real  help  to  them.  You  know  how  meetings  are 
sometimes  delayed.  We  began  in  March,  and  it  was  April  when 
we  got  going.  We  invited  Sir  Roger  Casement  to  come,  but  he 
could  not.  One  of  my  dearest  possessions  today  is  an  autographed 
letter  from  him  explaining  that  he  could  not  come  down  to  the 
meeting.     That   was   in   May;    and  in   the  beginning   of  June   Mr. 


212 

Redmond's  call  for  control  of  the  volunteers  came.     Then  came  the 
war. 

In  November,  1914,  we  had  a  meeting  at  Dublin  when  the 
women  had  to  decide  whether  they  would  remain  neutral  or  side 
with  the  Irish  Volunteers,  or  with  Mr.  Redmond's  Volunteers,  or 
split.  Thank  God  we  did  not  split,  but  remained  on  the  side  of  the 
Irish  Volunteers.  Cumann  na  m'Ban  has  never  deviated  from  that 
day,  and  they  are  still  fighting  on  that  position. 

EASTER  WEEK  THE   FIRST   BATTLE   IN   PRESENT 
WAR  FOR  INDEPENDENCE 

In  1916  we  began  our  first  open  battle.  I  suppose  you  can 
regard  the  declaration  of  war  on  England  as  the  day  we  reorganized 
the  Irish  Volunteers  and  said  they  are  out  to  fight  for  the  rights 
and  liberties  of  the  Irish  people.  But  the  first  battle  in  this  phase 
of  the  war  that  has  been  going  on  for  so  long  was  in  Easter  Week, 
1916.  That  battle  failed.  We  lost  it.  But  Padraic  Pearse  said, 
on  the  night  before  we  were  forced  to  evacuate  the  general  post- 
office,  "We  have  lost  the  first  battle,  but  we  have  saved  the  soul 
of  Ireland,  and  now  the  people  can  go  ahead."  Easter  Week  saved 
the  soul  of  Ireland.  From  that  day  on  there  was  no  more  possi- 
bility of  the  Irish  people  mistaking  where  their  duty  lay.  From 
that  day  on  there  was  no  such  thing  as  recruiting  for  any  army 
except  the  Irish  Volunteers.  In  consequence  of  the  insurrection, 
the  Irish  people  were  arrested.  About  two  thousand  of  them  filled 
English  jails. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  About  how  many  Irish  soldiers  took  part 
in  the  Easter  uprising? 

A.  Not  more  than  one  thousand.  The  English  brought  in  regi- 
ments and  armored  cars  and  guns  and  shelled  our  capital. 

Q.     Were  they  all  Irish  Volunteers? 

A.  No,  there  was  also  the  Citizens'  Army,  the  Irish  Citizens' 
Army. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  was  not  a  Sinn  Fein  army?  It 
was  a  national  army? 

A.  It  was  a  national  army.  The  reason  the  name  Sinn  Fein 
stuck  to  it  was  that  all  these  people  got  mixed  up  in  the  Irish  In- 
dustrial Development  Association  and  the  Gaelic  League,  and  all 
got  to  be  called  Sinn  Feiners  because  some  of  them  were  Sinn 
Feiners,  and  because  they  all  joined  the  Irish  Volunteers'  move- 
ment.    Sinn  Fein  was  a  tag  put  on  by  the  people.     Sinn  Fein  was 


213 

originally  a  constitutional  policy.  But  now  the  name  lias  been 
adopted  everywhere,  and  it  is  a  Republican  policy. 

After  that  there  were  wholesale  arrests. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  The  story  of  what  has  happened  in  the 
Easter  Rebellion  ought  to  be  a  continuous  story,  ought  it  not? 

A.     Would  you  like  me  to  tell  you? 

Chairman  Howe:  We  would  like  to  have  you  tell  us  some  time, 
either  now  or  after  lunch. 

The  Witness:  About  the  Easter  Week  insurrection,  I  will  try  to 
put  it  as  shortly  as  I  can. 

Chairman  Howe:     I  did  not  mean  to  suggest  that. 

The  Witness:  I  know,  but  it  would  take  so  long  if  1  went  into 
detail.  The  essential  point  for  you  to  understand  is  that  this  insur- 
rection was  confined  mainly  to  Dublin.  Galway  rose  also,  but  most 
of  the  fighting  was  in  Dublin.  You  have  often  heard  that  Ireland 
was  divided  over  this  insurrection.  I  should  like  to  explain  about 
that. 

RIGHT   OF  IRISH  REPUBLICANS  TO   RECEIVE  AID 
FROM  GERMANY 

We  expected  help  in  this  insurrection.  We  expected  arms.  We 
had  very  few  arms  at  that  time.  We  were  expecting  Roger  Case- 
ment to  come  from  Germany  with  arms.  I  have  no  hesitation  about 
acknowledging  that,  and  I  give  no  one  in  the  world  any  apology  foi 
it.  We  were  at  war  with  England,  and  we  were  at  liberty  to  get 
guns  where  we  could  to  carry  on  that  war.  England  said  she  was 
fighting  for  the  rights  of  small  nations.  We  had  absolutely  as  much 
right  to  our  liberty  as  Belgium  had,  about  whose  rights  England 
was  so  solicitous.  If  we  wanted  to  take  Germany  as  an  ally  we  had 
a  right  to  take  her  as  an  ally.  England  had  a  great  deal  of  talk 
about  our  being  pro-German.  She  did  turn  France  against  us.  Only 
my  brother's  death  has  softened  France.  She  said  we  weakened  her 
ally  at  a  critical  moment.  But  what  right  had  France  to  expect  that 
we  should  not  weaken  the  cause  of  her  ally  when  her  allv  was  op- 
pressing us. 

Q.     We  were  told  you  took  German  gold. 

A.  We  did  not  take  German  gold.  We  took  the  pennies  and  six- 
pences of  our  people.  But  did  not  we  have  a  right  to  take  it  if  we 
had  wanted  it?  Did  not  France  take  English  gold,  and  did  not 
England  take  American  gold  when  she  could  get  it.  Surely  no  one 
has  a  right  to  speak  if  we  had  taken  it.  But  we  did  not.  Surely  not 
England,   who   was   borrowing   from    America.      Any   nation    has   a 


214 

right  to  make  alliances  when  she  is  fighting  against  an  enemy.  It 
is  said  that  we  wanted  to  invite  the  Germans  into  Ireland.  We  did 
not.  The  only  man  who  ever  tried  to  invite  Germans  into  Ireland 
was  Sir  Edward  Carson.  If  Germany  tried  to  take  Ireland  we 
would  fight  her  just  as  long  and  just  as  effectively  as  we  are  fighting 
England.  Of  course  it  was  a  lie  that  we  took  German  money,  but 
if  we  had  taken  it,  what  difference  would  it  make?  England  says 
she  wants  people  to  have  fair  play,  but  she  does  not  give  us  fair 
play.  If  it  is  right  for  France  to  borrow  money  from  England,  it 
would  be  just  as  right  for  us  to  borrow  money  from  Germany,  if 
we  had  got  it,  but  we  didn't.  Germany  would  have  been  glad  for 
us  to  create  a  revolution  in  her  favor,  of  course.  But  we  were  not 
doing  it  to  please  Germany.  More  than  one  Irishman  has  said: 
"England's  difficulty  is  Ireland's  opportunity."  England's  difficulty 
has  always  been  Ireland's  opportunity,  and  we  are  absolutely  right 
in  taking  advantage  of  that  opportunity.  The  sooner  you  can  get 
that  in  a  common  sense  way,  the  better.  It  was  no  crime  for  us  to 
take  help  where  we  could  get  it,  to  make  an  alliance  with  anybody 
we  wanted  to. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  -it  not  raised  as  a  fact  that  France  has 
sometimes  been  at  war  with  England,  and  has  been  glad  to  help 
along  revolutions  in  England's  colonies? 

A.  I  was  going  to  say  that.  In  1778  France  happened  to  be  at 
war  with  England,  and  she  wanted  to  hurt  England  in  any  way  she 
could,  and  she  acknowledged  you  as  a  republic  to  hurt  England, 
and  it  did.  You  also  wanted,  in  1774  and  1775  to  appeal  to  the 
sympathies  of  the  Irish  people,  and  you  got  it.  And  I  do  not  think 
America  needs  to  be  told  of  the  many  Irishmen  she  has  had  then 
and  since  to  fight  for  the  freedom  of  her  country. 

And  therefore  I  protest  against  the  statement  that  I  or  my  fellow 
citizens  would  choose  to  ally  ourselves  with  the  Central  Empires. 
We  did  not  because  they  would  be  no  good  to  us.  But  if  we  had, 
it  would  have  been  no  worse  than  England  taking  your  help,  and 
she  was  very  glad  to  get  it,  because  if  she  had  not  got  it,  she  would 
not  be  victorious  today. 

AMERICA  HAS  FAILED  TO  ACHIEVE  WAR  AIMS 

I  ask  you  American  people,  do  you  think  you  have  helped  de- 
mocracy by  entering  the  war?  President  Wilson  said:  "The  reasons 
for  this  war  have  been  so  clearly  avowed  that  no  man  can  make  a 
mistake  by  entering  it."  He  said — I  do  not  know  whether  I  am 
stating  it  exactly:   "America  has  gone  to  war  for  the  rights  and 


215 

liberties  of  all  peoples  everywhere  under  the  sun,  for  the  right  of 
self-determination  for  small  nations,  and  for  their  release  from  an 
autocratic  power."  Are  we  not  a  people,  and  are  we  not  under  the 
sun  somewhere?  If  you  say  "all  people,"  you  must  count  us.  If 
you  say,  "the  release  of  small  nations  from  autocratic  power,"  you 
must  not  leave  out  Ireland.  As  America  went  out  for  the  rights  and 
liberties  of  all  peoples  everywhere,  for  liberty  and  self-determina- 
tion and  for  the  "undictated  development  of  all  peoples"  (I  think 
that  was  another  phrase  of  President  Wilson ) ,  I  ask  you,  have  we 
not  rights  and  liberties  and  a  right  to  the  undictated  development 
of  our  own  country?  We  have  our  republic,  but  we  have  got  it  in 
spite  of  England's  oppression. 

You  people  in  America  have  not  carried  out  the  policies  for  which 
you  went  into  the  war.  You  sheathed  the  sword  when  England  got 
what  she  wanted.  I  do  not  want  to  hurt  you.  You  have  been  very 
good  to  us,  and  you  have  given  us  a  chance  by  this  Commission  to 
tell  the  truth  about  Ireland.  But  you  have  not  made  the  world  safe 
for  democracy.  You  have  only  made  the  world  safe  for  a  time  for 
the  British  Empire.  But  I  know  this.  When  England  begins  to 
collar  all  the  coal  fields  and  all  the  oil  fields,  and  when  she  begins 
to  hamper  your  navy  and  your  shipping  by  collaring  the  coal  and 
oil  fields  of  the  world,  she  will  not  find  it  as  easy  to  overwhelm 
America  with  force  of  numbers  as  she  has  found  it  to  overrun  Ire- 
land. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  now  be  adjourned, — it  is 
quarter  to  one — will  now  be  adjourned  until  two  o'clock. 

2:21  P.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  will  proceed  with  the  hearing  (rapping  for 
order).     Is  Miss  MacSwiney  here? 

(Miss  Mary  MacSwiney  retakes  witness  stand.) 

CONFLICT   OF   ORDERS   PREVENTS   NATIONAL 
UPRISING 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  When  we  let  out  for  the  noon  recess,  Miss 
MacSwiney,  you  had  just  begun  to  tell  of  the  happenings  of  Easter 
Week,  1916. 

The  Witness:  It  was  a  point  made  very  much  of  by  England  that 
the  Easter  Week  insurrection  was  not  an  insurrection  of  the  Irish 
nation.  That  it  was  only  a  few  extremists.  And  they  pointed  to  the 
fact  that  the  fighting  took  place  in  Dublin  only.    I  had  begun  to  tell 


210 

you  that  we  had  expected  help  in  the  shape  of  arms.  We  had  hoped 
to  get  some  arms  to  enable  us  to  carry  on  the  fight,  because  the  arms 
and  ammunition  of  the  country  did  not  amount  to  much.  And  those 
arms  failed  us.  They  did  not  come.  An  insurrection  had  been  ar- 
ranged for  Easter  Monday,  1916.  The  leader*  had  counted  on  get- 
ting the  arms  the  last  of  the  week,  on  a  Good  Friday.  The  ship 
bringing  the  arms  was  sunk  by  the  British.  They  were  perfectly 
justified  from  their  point  of  view  in  sinking  that  ship,  just  as  we 
were  justified  in  bringing  it  in  if  we  could.  However,  it  was  sunk. 
The  result  of  that  was  that  some  of  the  leaders,  notably  Mr.  Mac- 
Neil,  thought  that  the  time  was  not  opportune  to  begin.  And  though 
the  orders  had  gone  out  for  the  whole  country  for  the  insurrection 
on  Easter  Monday,  the  orders  were  cancelled  at  the  last  moment  by 
Mr.  MacNeil.  Many  of  the  leaders  did  not  agree  with  the  canceling 
of  those  orders,  and  I  think  that  some  of  them  thought  that  Mr.  Mac- 
Neil  had  exceeded  his  powers  and  his  rights  in  sending  these  can- 
cellation orders.  One  section,  the  Irish  Citizens'  Army,  was  not 
under  the  control  of  the  Volunteers.  That  was  a  labor  organization 
chiefly.  You  have  heard  of  Jim  Larkin  here,  and  he  and  James  Con- 
nolly were  concerned  with  the  organization  of  that  Citizens'  Army. 
They  had  threatened  to  go  out  in  any  case.  The  secret  history  of 
those  few  days  has  not  been  fully  published,  and  the  documentary 
evidence  in  connection  with  it  was  largely  burned  during  Easter 
Week.  And  some  of  us,  even  though  we  were  on  the  inside  of  Re- 
publican affairs,  are  not  exactly  certain  of  all  the  orders  and  counter- 
orders  of  that  week.  It  ended  by  only  a  portion  of  the  Volunteers 
rising  in  Dublin.  They  began  on  Monday  morning,  according  to  the 
plan.  Mr.  MacNeil  had  sent  the  order  all  over  Ireland  on  Sunday 
that  the  Volunteers  were  not  to  rise.  An  order  followed  on  Monday 
signed  by  Padraic  Pearse  and  John  MacDermott  that  they  were  to 
rise,  that  the  orders  were  to  be  kept  to.  By  the  time  these  orders 
reached  the  outlying  districts  it  was  too  late.  Cork  was  not  in  the 
Easter  rising.  The  fact  that  it  was  not  was  a  lasting  source  of  grief 
to  my  brother.  Many  of  the  people  thought  they  should  have  gone 
out,  even  though  they  were  certain  to  fail.  There  were  some  people, 
I  am  not  sure  how  many,  who  accused  them  of  cowardice  or  funk  at 
the  last  moment.  That  charge  was  not  justified,  and  I  do  not  think 
it  will  be  ever  made  again.  But  the  situation  in  Cork  made  it  im- 
possible for  them  to  rise.  Cork  is  built  in  a  valley.  The  order  to 
rise  did  not  reach  the  commandants  until  Monday  evening.  By  the 
time  they  could  have  got  their  men  together  every  hill  in  Cork  was 
mounted  by  a  huge  field  gun,  the  largest  piece  of  artillery  they  could 
get.    Cork  is  built  in  a  valley.    The  British  military  barracks  are  on 


217 

the  highest  hill  in  the  district.  By  Tuesday  night  they  had  a  huge 
gun  planted  on  every  hill  around  the  city.  They  could  have  shelled 
the  city  in  an  hour  until  there  was  nothing  left  of  it.  The  Volun- 
teer commanders  in  Cork  knew  that.  They  did  not  want  to  order 
the  men  out  to  what  was  absolutely  certain  slaughter.  They  realized 
that  Dublin  was  only  a  first  battle  in  the  war,  and  for  the  time  they 
had  to  remain  inactive.  I  can  speak  of  personal  knowledge  of  the 
very,  very  great  reluctance  with  which  they  came  to  that  decision. 
I  can  tell  you  what  very  few  people  in  Ireland  knew  at  that  time  or 
even  now,  that  as  late  as  Thursday  evening  at  seven  o'clock  they  had 
made  plans  to  get  out  of  the  city  into  the  country  districts  where  they 
could  have  fought.  Cork  is  not  like  Dublin,  which  was  suitable  for 
street  fighting.  Cork  could  not  have  street  fighting.  It  would  have 
been  shelled  from  the  hills  within  an  hour.  By  Thursday  evening 
they  were  trying  to  call  the  Volunteers  out  of  the  city,  and  as  late 
as  Thursday  evening  at  seven  o'clock  I  had  orders  to  put  in  a  fresh 
supply  of  first  aid  material  in  case  they  were  able  to  manage  it. 
They  were  not  able  to  manage  it,  but  I  can  testify  to  the  great  re- 
luctance with  which  they  finally  gave  it  up. 

BRITISH    MILITARY    BREAK    PLEDGE    TO    MAYOR 
AND  BISHOP  OF  CORK 

The  military  in  Cork  were  so  certain  that  they  would  rise  that 
the  military  commander  appealed  to  the  mayor  and  the  bishop  to 
try  to  get  the  Volunteers  to  lay  down  their  arms.  If  the  Volunteers 
showed  no  signs  of  giving  the  military  trouble,  the  military  under- 
took not  to  give  them  any  trouble.  Our  men  would  not  have  any 
negotiations  with  the  British  except  on  equal  terms.  But  they  came, 
by  the  advice  of  the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor,  to  an  understanding, 
as  they  were  assured  that  a  rising  in  Cork  was  impossible.  The 
understanding  was  that  they  would  hand  over  to  the  bishop  and  the 
lord  mayor  of  the  city  the  guns,  the  arms  and  ammunition  that  they 
had;  that  these  arms  and  ammunitions  were  to  remain  under  the 
charge  of  the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor  as  joint  guarantors  that  the 
Irish  Volunteers  would  not  rise  in  insurrection,  on  the  one  hand; 
and  that  the  military  authorities  would  not  capture  the  guns  and 
would  not  arrest  the  leaders,  on  the  other.  This  was  a  definite 
understanding,  a  promise  made  by  Colonel  East,  who  was  command- 
ing the  British  forces  in  Cork.  And  that  promise  was  given  to  the 
lord  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor  of  the  City  of  Cork.  After  a  lengthy 
discussion  the  men  agreed  to  accept  that,  and  on  Monday  night,  that 
would  be  the  first  of  May,  they  handed  their  guns  over  to  the  care 


218 

of  the  lord  mayor.  They  were  locked  up  in  his  offices,  and  the 
guarantee  was  given,  not  a  written  guarantee  in  the  hands  of  the 
Volunteers,  but  the  word  of  the  military  commander  was  given  to 
the  bishop  and  the  lord  mayor,  as  the  word  of  our  men  was  given 
to  them,  that  they  would  take  no  further  action.  That  was  on  Mon- 
day night,  and  the  arms  were  handed  to  the  lord  mayor  before  mid- 
night. At  eight  o'clock  on  Tuesday  morning, — at  quarter  to  one, 
let  me  say  first,  just  three-quarters  of  an  hour  after  midnight,  a 
military  party  headed  by  a  captain  went  to  the  lord  mayor  and  de- 
manded the  arms  that  had  been  entrusted  to  him.  He  said  they  had 
been  given  to  him  as  a  trustee,  and  the  military  had  promised  not 
to  ask  for  them.  He  was  told  that  he  would  be  in  jail  in  a  very 
short  time  if  he  did  not  give  them  up.  Not  being  an  Irish  Republi- 
can at  the  time,  he  gave  them  up.  At  seven  o'clock  in  the  morning 
the  arrests  began.  Practically  every  Irish  Volunteer  in  the  city  was 
arrested,  and  two  women  were  arrested.  My  brother  had  left  for  the 
country  early  on  Tuesday  before  the  arrests  began,  or  before  he 
knew  of  it,  and  he  was  out  of  the  city  when  a  party  of  six  policemen 
with  loaded  rifles  came  to  our  house.  I  was  in  school  at  the  time, — 
at  least,  I  was  not  in  school  at  the  time,  I  was  in  jail,  but  my  sister 
thought  I  was  in  school.  But  they  stood  around  her,  and  the  whole 
six  pointed  their  loaded  rifles  at  her  and  demanded  to  know  where 
her  brother  was.  She  said  she  would  not  tell  them.  They  threatened 
and  coaxed  her,  but  she  gave  them  no  answer.  They  wanted  to  know 
if  he  was  upstairs,  and  she  said,  "Go  and  see."  She  happened  to  be 
standing  with  her  arms  behind  her  back,  and  they  ordered  her  to 
put  up  her  hands.  She  put  them  up,  for  she  had  nothing  in  them. 
They  then  wanted  to  know  again  if  he  was  upstairs,  and  she  would 
not  tell  them.  And  so  they  went  upstairs,  but  they  were  all  very 
polite,  very  polite  to  each  other,  each  one  letting  the  other  go  first. 
They  thought  that  he  might  be  at  the  top  of  the  landing  with  a  gun. 
The  sergeant  finally  went  first.  They  found  nothing.  They  came 
down  with  very  relieved  faces  and  went  away.  We  had  a  little  maid 
at  the  time.  They  found  her  in  the  kitchen  and  threw  her  out  by 
force,  threw  her  out  in  the  next  room  against  the  wall  and  demanded 
to  know  where  the  master  was.  She  did  not  know.  She  never  knew, 
of  course.     And  they  finally  went  away. 

WHOLESALE  ARRESTS  AND  REARRESTS 

In  the  meantime  they  went  to  the  school  and  arrested  me.  All 
over  the  city  that  day  the  tension  was  frightful.  Great  squads 
of  soldiers  and  police  going  all  over  the  city,  as  many  as  a  hun- 


219 

dred  and  fifty  soldiers  to  arrest  one  man.  Naturally  the  word 
was  taken  to  the  bishop.  Men  and  women  were  going  to  the 
house  of  the  bishop  and  demanding  to  know  what  it  all  meant. 
He  got  in  touch  with  the  military  authorities.  I  think  he  spoke 
very  plainly  to  them.  And  finally,  although  they  did  not  give  back 
the  arms.  Colonel  East  sent  an  order  to  release  all  the  people 
who  had  been  arrested  in  the  city  about  seven-thirty  Tuesday  even- 
ing. So  we  all  got  out.  We  did  not  have  very  much  jail.  It  was 
about  twenty  to  eight  when  I  was  driving  down  from  the  jail, 
and  about  ten  minutes  afterwards  an  urgent  order  came  from 
General  Maxwell  that  no  one  was  to  be  released  on  any  condi- 
tion whatever.  But  we  were  gone.  The  birds  had  flown.  They 
did  not  take  the  women  back,  but  they  began  rearresting  the  men 
in  twos  and  threes  until  they  had  about  two  thousand  of  them  ar- 
rested and  put  in  jail  in  England.  My  brother  was  arrested  in  the 
country  and  taken.  We  did  not  know  for  a  long  time  where  he 
was. 

MR.  ASQUITH'S  DUPLICITY 

To  show  you  how  they  can  tell  lies:  we  were  very  uneasy  be- 
cause for  over  a  week  we  did  not  have  a  single  word  from  my 
brother.  We  knew  he  had  been  arrested.  Someone  had  seen  him 
brought  into  Cork  at  half -past  four  in  the  morning,  and  they  were 
taking  him  up  to  Cork  jail.  A  few  days  afterward  we  learned 
that  someone  had  seen  him  about  five  o'clock  in  the  morning  re- 
moved from  Cork  jail.  We  applied  to  the  governor,  but  got  no 
information  where  he  was.  After  a  question  asked  in  the  House 
of  Commons  as  to  why  these  men  were  not  allowed  to  see  their 
relatives,  Mr.  Asquith,  the  Prime  Minister  at  the  time,  replied 
that  all  the  Cork  prisoners  were  allowed  to  see  their  friends  and 
had  fresh  air  and  food  and  visitors  and  all  other  nice  things.  It 
was  utterly  false.  That  appeared  on  Thursday  morning,  about  the 
thirteenth  of  May,  I  think.  He  had  been  missing  since  the  third. 
Some  of  us  whose  relatives  had  been  taken  away  and  did  not 
know  their  whereabouts  went  to  the  general  postoffice  and  sent  a 
series  of  telegrams  to  Mr.  Asquith,  and  sent  him  each  one  his  own 
particular  story,  and  told  him  that  our  relatives  had  been  taken 
away  and  we  had  been  denied  all  information  as  to  where  they 
were.  We  also  sent  copies  of  these  telegrams  to  William  O'Brien, 
because  it  was  he  who  asked  for  information  from  Mr.  Asquith, 
and  to  Lawrence  Ginnell,  because  he  was  the  only  one  in  the  House 
of  Commons  on   whom  we  could  depend  to  bring   out  the  truth. 


220 

We  sent  them  in  great  hurry,  because  there  was  to  be  a  debate 
in  the  House  of  Commons  that  day  on  the  Irish  question.  Mr. 
Ginnell  later  told  me  that  those  telegrams  created  a  great  sensa- 
tion when  read  in  the  House.  That  was  on  Thursday.  On  Satur- 
day morning  we  all  got  letters  from  our  friends.  That  is  the 
way.  And  then  when  you  catch  them  at  it,  they  correct  it  and 
say,  It  is  a  lie;  you  are  not  telling  the  truth. 

PENAL  SERVITUDE  AND   EXECUTION  FOR 
INSURRECTIONISTS 

That  was  my  brother's  second  term  of  imprisonment.  They 
were  all  in  prison  most  of  the  time  until  Christmas.  There  was  a 
general  amnesty  at  Christmas.  But  the  men  who  were  concerned 
actually  in  the  rising,  the  men  who  were  in  Dublin,  were  sent  most 
of  them  to  penal  servitude,  those  who  were  not  shot.  And  they  were 
not  released  from  prison  by  the  Christmas  amnesty. 

SUBSERVIENCE  OF  SCHOOLS  TO  ENGLISH 
INFLUENCES 

Mr.  Walsh  asked  me  this  morning  to  tell  you  something  about 
education  in  Ireland.  There  is  a  little  addition  I  would  like  to 
make  here.  I  was  teaching  in  a  large  secondary  school,  in  one 
of  the  intermediate  schools  of  which  I  spoke,  in  the  city  at  that 
time.  As  an  example  of  the  type  of  mind  engendered  by  the 
British  education  in  our  country,  I  might  tell  you  that  the  nuns 
are  personally  very  fond  of  me.  I  know  that.  They  highly  dis- 
approved of  my  political  opinions,  and  they  were  very  nervous 
at  having  them  in  that  exceedingly  respectable  school.  On  the 
January  preceding  the  Easter  rising,  my  brother  had  been  arrested 
for  making  a  speech.  And  a  district  inspector  of  police  who  had 
a  child  in  the  school  went  up  to  the  Reverend  Mother  and  told  her 
I  was  not  a  proper  person  to  be  teaching  in  a  school  like  that,  and 
I  ought  to  be  dismissed.  Now,  I  do  not  want  to  say  an  unneces- 
sarily harsh  word  about  that  school.  It  was  my  alma  mater,  and 
I  am  very  attached  to  it.  And  the  only  crime  I  convict  the  nuns 
of  was  cowardice.  It  is  a  pretty  bad  one  in  my  category  of  crimes. 
But  it  was  absolutely  unavoidable  in  that  condition  of  mind  en- 
gendered by  the  education  of  the  country.  It  was  so  fearfully 
disrespectable  to  be  a  Sinn  Feiner.  We  are  all  called  Sinn  Feiners. 
And  Sinn  Fein  by  that  time  had  become  Republican.  However, 
some  time  before   Easter  the  Reverend   Mother  complained  of  my 


221. 

tendencies  to  make  Sinn  Feiners  of  the  pupils.  I  said,  "I  have 
never  mentioned  the  name  Sinn  Fein  in  the  class.  I  am  not  a 
Sinn  Feiner  at  all.  I  am  a  Republican.  But  I  have  never  told 
the  children  what  I  am."  And  she  said,  "But  at  the  same  time  there 
is  something  there."  And  she  finally  brought  it  out  with  a  great 
burst  that  I  was  too  Irish.  And  I  asked  her  if  she  ever  heard  of 
an  Englishwoman  being  too  English,  or  a  Frenchwoman  being  too 
French;  and  it  was  not  a  crime  for  me  to  be  too  Irish.  Then  she 
said,  "You  must  keep  to  the  textbook  in  teaching  history."  I 
said,  "If  I  keep  to  the  textbook,  the  senior  girls  will  fail  in  the 
examination,  because  there  is  not  enough  in  it."  That  was  not 
exactly  what  she  meant,  and  I  told  her  what  she  meant.  "You 
want  me  to  teach  Irish  history  from  the  English  point  of  view.  I 
would  no  more  do  that  than  as  a  Catholic  I  would  teach  the  history 
of  the  Reformation  from  the  Protestant  point  of  view."  And 
whether  you  are  Catholic  or  Protestant  or  nothing  at  all,  you  can 
perfectly  understand  that  I  would  not  teach  the  Protestant  point 
of  view  against  my  own  than  you  would,  if  you  were  a  Protestant, 
teach  the  Catholic  point  of  view  against  your  own.  Naturally,  the 
teaching  of  all  history  must  be  colored  by  the  point  of  view  of  the 
country  in  which  it  is  taught.  I  think  before  this  war  there  was 
an  idea  that  history  should  be  wholly  colorless;  that  it  should  be 
taken  from  state  documents.  If  there  is  anything  that  this  past  war 
has  taught  the  world  it  is  that  of  all  the  lies  that  it  is  possible  to 
tell,  that  official  documents  are  the  biggest  lies.  I  have  friends  who 
were  in  the  war  who  told  me  exactly  how  these  official  documents 
were  compiled.  It  is  very  interesting  for  the  historian  and  I  don't 
think — 

Chairman  Howe:  Please  keep  to  the  recital  of  the  Irish  situation, 
Miss  MacSwiney. 

The  Witness:  I  am  sorry.  Please  pull  me  up  if  I  say  things  I 
ought  not  to  say.  I  have  said  that  about  the  school  to  show  you 
the  type  of  mind  that  was  engendered  in  our  country.  The  Reverend 
Mother  hinted  to  me  that  they  would  have  to  reduce  the  staff.  I 
think  I  was  expected  to  take  the  hint  that  I  was  to  be  the  one  dis- 
missed, so  I  said  to  her,  "Now,  Mother,  I  am  the  senior  teacher 
here.  Therefore,  I  take  it  for  granted  that  I  am  not  the  one  to  be 
dismissed."  She  could  not  take  it  for  granted  at  all.  I  said,  "Why, 
then?  Am  I  incompetent?"  And  she  had  to  say  I  was  not.  I  said, 
"Now,  look  here,  if  you  dismiss  me  in  reducing  the  staff,  it  simply 
means  that  you  are  dismissing  me  because  I  am  an  Irish  Republican. 
You  are  dismissing  me  because  of  my  political  opinions.  If  you 
say  that,  well  and  good.     Bui   I  will  not  permit  myself  to  be  dis- 


222 

missed  on  any  other  ground."  There  were  three  teachers  in  that 
division  of  the  school.  And  all  three  teachers  got  notice  that  in 
consequence  of  changes  in  the  school  during  the  coming  summer, 
we  could  not  consider  ourselves  engaged  for  the  next  year.  We 
were  at  liberty  to  get  another  post,  and  they  were  at  liberty  to  get 
other  services.  That  was  the  quietest  way  to  get  rid  of  a  trouble- 
some person.  It  does  not  sound  very  nice,  and  I  do  not  want  to  be 
hard  on  that  particular  school,  but  I  am  doing  that  not  to  hurt 
them,  but  to  show  you  the  type  of  mind  that  was  engendered  by  the 
British  education  in  that  country.  They  were  afraid — afraid  of 
offending  the  rich  people,  who  were  mostly  West  Britons;  afraid 
of  offending  the  police  authorities;  afraid  that  anybody  connected 
with  them  might  be  connected  in  any  way  with  that  very  dangerous 
thing  called  Sinn  Fein.  When  I  was  arrested  on  a  Tuesday  morning 
and  released  on  Tuesday  night,  I  went  to  school  again  on  Wednesday 
morning. 

EXECUTIONS   OF  EASTER  WEEK  MAKE  IRELAND 
CONSCIOUSLY  REPUBLICAN 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  How  is  that  school  about  being  Republican 
now? 

A.     Oh,  everyone  in  Ireland  is  Republican  now. 

Q.     Does  that  include  that  school? 

A.  Yes,  of  course.  In  the  recent  martyrdom  of  my  brother, 
when  prayers  were  being  said  for  him  and  masses  were  being  said 
for  him,  all  the  school  children  said  prayers  for  him,  and  I  am 
glad  to  say  that  that  school  sent  me  word  through  one  of  the  nuns 
that  they  had  done  their  share.  All  the  children  are  all  right  and 
all  the  nuns  are  all  right.  I  think  there  are  several  old  ladies  there 
yet  who  are  very  much  afraid.  But  they  are  all  right  at  heart.  I 
was  deeply  grieved  at  their  treatment  of  me,  and  still  am  deeply 
grieved  because  they  did  not  dismiss  me  straight  out.  When  they 
found  out  Easter  week  had  changed  the  whole  of  the  citizens,  and 
there  was  a  revulsion  of  feeling  and  indignation  in  the  city  because 
I  was  dismissed,  they  tried  to  say  that  I  was  not  really  dismissed; 
that  it  was  a  mistake. 

I  have  introduced  this  to  show  you  the  state  of  mind  of  a  large 
number  of  the  Irish  people  in  1916.  It  was  the  shooting  of  the 
leaders  of  the  1916  movement  and  the  arrest  of  over  two  thousand 
people  that  woke  up  the  ordinary  man,  who  up  to  that  time  had  been 
a  home-ruler,  perhaps,  to  realize  that  it  was  the  same  old  fight 
over  again  in  their  generation,  although  they  had  not  realized  it  up 


223 

to  that  time;  and  that  when  England  began  shooting  Irishmen,  no 
matter  what  the  Irishman's  political  opinions  were,  he  must  be 
right.  From  1916  on  Ireland  became  more  and  more  consciously 
Republican  in  the  hearts  of  the  common  people.  They  had,  of 
course,  been  instinctively  so.  They  became  consciously  so  after 
that. 

ELECTIONS    PROVE    PEOPLE    OVERWHELMINGLY 
FOR  REPUBLIC 

The  first  chance  they  had  to  give  expression  to  that  was  in  the 
general  election  of  1918.  In  that  election  Sinn  Fein  or  the  Repub- 
lican movement  swept  the  country.  There  were  very  few  con- 
stituencies in  which  there  was  a  contest.  But  where  there  was  a 
contest  in  the  whole  of  Ireland,  outside  of  Ulster,  there  was  only 
one  man  got  in  who  was  a  Redmondile,  and  that  man  was  John 
Redmond's  son,  who,  because  of  sympathy  for  his  father  and  be- 
cause of  his  hold  on  the  people  of  Waterford,  was  returned. 

Q.     That  is  exclusive  of  Ulster? 

A.  I  am  excluding  Ulster.  In  the  Parliamentary  elections  again 
matters  were — 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  a  candidate  representing  the  Na- 
tionalists in  every  county  in  that  election? 

A.  Oh,  no;  very  few.  There  were  twenty-five  constituencies,  1 
think,  in  which  Republicans  were  elected  without  any  opposition. 

Q.     There  was  very  little  opposition? 

A.     Very  little  opposition. 

Q.     But  where  there  was  a  contest? 

A.  Where  there  was  a  contest  it  was  a  contest  between  the  Red- 
mondites  and  the  Republicans,  and  Redmonclism  was  wiped  out 
completely,  except  in  Waterford,  where  it  was  not  Redmondism 
that  won,  but  a  feeling  for  Redmond's  son. 

In  Ulster  the  case  was  rather  peculiar.  You  have  at  present  four 
men  representing  the  Constitutionalist  Home  Rule  Party  in  Ulster — 
five  men.  Four  of  them  got  in  this  way.  There  were  eight  seats  in 
Ulster  in  which  the  proportion  of,  we  will  say  Nationalists,  using 
the  word  Nationalist  in  its  broad  sense — Ireland  versus  England — 
had  a  majority.  But  if  Sinn  Fein  and  Redmondites  and  Unionists 
went  up,  the  three-cornered  division  would  probably  let  the  Union- 
ists in.  On  those  seats,  upon  the  advice  of  Cardinal  Logue,  there 
was  a  compromise  suggested:  that  they  should  divide  them  equally. 
Our  people  wanted  a  much  fairer  thing  than  that.  Our  people 
wanted  an  election  of  the  Nationalist  population  held,  a  kind  of  a 


224 

plebiscite  of  the  Nationalist  population  held  on  the  preceding  week, 
everyone  to  vote,  and  the  seats  to  he  given  to  either  the  Republican 
or  the  Redmondite,  according  to  the  votes  cast.  If  that  had  been 
so,  we  would  have  had  seven  of  the  eight  seats.  Consequently  the 
Redmondites  did  not  agree  to  it. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  Seven  or  eight  seats  in  Ulster? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  this  does  not  deal  with  the  contests  with  the  Union- 
ists, but  only  with  the  contest  between  the  Republicans  and  the 
Redmondites.  They  would  not  agree  to  this  plebiscite,  so  it  was 
either  let  them  have  half  the  seats  or  give  them  to  the  Unionists. 
I  mean  the  risk  would  be  letting  the  Unionists  slip  in.  So  the  people 
agreed  to  halve  them,  and  that  is  why  you  have  a  few  representa- 
tives still  of  Redmond's  party. 

With  regard  to  the  general  election  of  1918,  it  was  80  per  cent. 
Republican.  It  was  claimed  by  the  British  Government  and  by  our 
opponents  that  it  did  not  represent  a  Sinn  Fein  election  or  a  Repub- 
lican election,  but  an  anti-parliamentarian  election.  It  was  an  anti- 
Redmond  election  rather  than  a  pro-Republican  election.  And  they 
said  that  ever  so  many  people  had  got  tired  of  a  parliamentary 
policy  and  were  willing  to  give  Sinn  Fein  a  chance.  We  knew  it 
was  not  so,  but  of  course  they  had  a  certain  amount  of  plausibility 
behind  their  argument.  And  so  it  was  not  until  1919  and  1920  that 
we  were  able  to  counter  that  and  prove  that  it  was  false  by  the 
municipal  and  county  elections.  It  is  true  that  every  candidate 
who   went  up  had   to  take  the  Republican   pledge. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  was  that  pledge? 

A.  "I  pledge  my  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann  and  the  Parliament 
of  Ireland."  I  do  not  know  the  exact  words,  but  it  was  pledging 
allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republican  parliament  and  renouncing  every- 
thing English. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Every  candidate? 

A.  Every  candidate,  yes,  who  received  Republican  support.  But 
some  said,  after  the  Republican  victory  in  1918:  "Even  so,  the 
candidates  were  Republican,  but  we  have  people  voting  for  the 
Republican  candidates  not  because  they  were  Republicans,  but  be- 
cause they  were  anti-parliamentarian.  They  were  sick  of  parlia- 
mentarianism."  And  so  when  the  municipal  and  county  elections 
came  and  were  overwhelmingly  Republican,  even  more  so  than  the 
general  elections  had  been,  that  argument  was  killed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  was  the  county  and  municipal 
election  of  1920? 


225 

PROPORTIONAL  REPRESENTATION  ACT  FAILS  TO 
REDUCE  REPUBLICAN  VICTORIES 

A.  Yes.  In  spite  of  the  fact  thai  in  the  meantime  proportional 
representation  laws  had  been  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  for 
Ireland  for  the  purpose  of  spoiling  the  Republican  elections  and 
getting  in  candidates  who  would  not  otherwise  have  got  in.  Our 
people  had  from  1905  advocated  proportional  representation.  And 
so  when  it  was  passed  by  the  House  of  Commons  it  was  opposed, 
not  by  us,  because  we  welcomed  it,  but  by  the  Carsonites.  And 
the  result  showed  that  they  had  good  reason  to  be  afraid  of  it. 
For  the  first  time  we  have  Irish  members  in  the  Belfast  corporation. 
We  have  Irish  Republican  members  in  county  councils  that  before" 
were  wholly  Unionist.  We  have  won  all  over  the  country,  and  have 
lost  nothing.  Probably  in  the  south  and  west  there  are  Unionist 
members  on  the  councils  who  might  not  have  been  there  otherwise: 
but  we  have  no  fear  whatever  of  Unionists  getting  on,  providing 
they  get  on  fairly  and  in  proper  proportion.  We  do  not  dread 
proportional  representation,  and  you  have  a  proof  of  that  by  what 
I  have  given  you  and  what  you  get  in  the  daily  newspapers.  Pro- 
portional representation  was  passed  to  ruin  the  Irish  Republican 
elections.     But  the  only  people  who  opposed  it  were  the  Carsonites. 

I  told  you  I  would  say  something  more  about  my  brother's  activi- 
ties. I  don't  think  there  is  anything  else  about  the  present  situation 
before  I  come  to  that. 

OUR  REVOLUTIONARY  WAR,  AND  NOT  CIVIL  WAR, 

ANALAGOUS  TO  IRELAND'S  RIGHT  TO  BREAK 

UNION  WITH  ENGLAND 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Before  that,  while  it  is  a  very  well-known 
subject  in  England,  one  of  the  Commission  has  asked  you  to  briefly 
sketch  the  Act  of  Union,  it  being  claimed  by  many  persons  that 
there  is  some  parallel  between  the  efforts  of  certain  states  in  the 
American  union  to  secede  and  the  efforts  of  the  Irish  people  to  get 
their  independence.     Do  you  understand  what  I  mean? 

A.     Oh,  quite,  Mr.  Walsh. 

Q.  Give  the  date  of  the  Act  of  Union  and  what  attitude  the  Irish 
people  take  toward  it. 

A.  I  would  like  to  deal  first  with  the  suggestion  that  there  is 
any  parallel  between  the  fight  between  your  north  and  south  against 
secession.  If  you  want  any  parallel  you  will  have  to  go  back  to 
1776,  and  not  to  1862.     That  is  the  parallel,  and  not  the  war  for 


226 

secession.  And  I  would  like  to  say  in  connection  with  this  that  you 
had  far  less  reason  to  secede  from  your  mother  country  than  we 
had,  because  she  was  never  our  mother  country.  We  are  a  distinct 
race.      (Continued  applause.) 

Chairman  Howe:  Please  let  the  witness  go  on  without  interrup- 
tion. 

The  Witness:  I  am  sure  you  will  not  mind  doing  that,  because 
I  am  sure  I  am  taking  up  much  of  the  Commission's  valuable  time. 

We  are  a  different  people.  As  I  told  you  this  morning,  they 
tried  to  kill  our  language  and  make  us  forget  it.  But  you  were 
the  same  people,  many  of  you.  But  you  were  not  going  to  permit 
them  to  take  away  your  liberties,  and  so  you  set  up  a  republic  of 
your  own.  That  is  the  only  liberty.  And  you  became  a  colony 
naturally  in  the  first  place.  Your  liberty  was  never  filched  from 
you.     Our  liberty  was  filched  from  us. 

PARALLEL  BETWEEN  SECESSION  OF  ULSTER  AND 
SOUTHERN  STATES 

A  parallel  with  your  war  of  secession  is  the  parallel  between 
Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ireland  today.  And  if  you  maintain  that  you 
were  justified  in  waging  a  long  war  of  five  years  which  nearly 
broke  President  Lincoln's  heart,  if  you  were  justified  in  fighting 
that  war  rather  than  let  a  part  of  your  country  secede,  then  you 
must  admit  that  we  are  justified  in  fighting  for  a  century,  if  need 
be,  rather  than  let  a  part  of  Ireland  secede.  The  parallel  is  the 
war  between  north  and  south  as  far  as  Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ireland 
are  concerned.  But  between  England  and  Ireland  your  Revolution- 
ary War  is  the  parallel. 

ACT  OF  UNION  SUPPRESSED  IRISH   PARLIAMENT 

The  Act  of  Union  was  signed  by  King  George  III  in  1801.  He 
was  your  enemy  as  well  as  ours.  Ireland  had  always  had  her  own 
parliament.  But  Poyning's  Law  of  1494,  and  what  is  known  as  the 
Sixth  of  George  I,  passed  in  1719,  I  think — I  am  not  certain,  but 
it  was  the  sixth  act  of  George  I's  reign,  anyway — -those  two  laws 
destroyed  all  the  powers  of  the  Irish  Parliament.  Poyning's  Law 
said  that  no  laws  could  be  made  in  Ireland  or  for  Ireland  without 
the  consent  of  the  king  and  the  privy  council  of  England.  That 
was  so  that  no  law  for  the  benefit  of  Ireland,  Irish  commerce,  or 
Irish  trade  could  be  passed,  unless  the  English  king  and  the  English 
council  were  quite  convinced  that  it  would  not  interfere  with  any- 


227 

thing  they  wanted.  The  Sixth  of  George  I  went  a  step  further,  and 
declared  that  all  laws  passed  in  England  were  binding  on  Ireland. 
That  distinction  is  quite  clear.  The  first  said  that  all  laws  passed 
in  Ireland  must  be  approved  in  England.  The  second  one,  passed 
nearly  three  centuries  later,  said  that  all  laws  passed  in  England 
would  become  operative  in  Ireland.  And  thus  those  two  laws 
ruined  all  of  the  power  of  the  Irish  Parliament.  The  1782  move- 
ment followed  very  largely  from  the  example  of  your  War  of  Inde- 
pendence. Ireland  could  not  see  why  she  could  not  follow  your 
example.  But  just  as  in  the  beginning  of  your  war  you  had  no 
idea  of  seceding  from  your  mother  country,  so  those  in  the  Irish 
movement  of  1782  had  no  idea  of  breaking  connection  with  the 
English  crown.  They  wanted  what  they  called  "the  King,  Lords, 
and  Commons  of  Ireland."  They  wanted  an  Irish  Parliament  sepa- 
rate from  that  of  England,  but  the  English  king  was  to  be  the  ruler 
in  both  countries.  After  a  great  deal  of  work  that  was  passed  in 
1782.  But  the  Act  of  Union,  definitely  renouncing  all  power  of 
Ireland  to  pass  laws,  was  passed  in  1801. 

Arthur  Griffith  has  often  had  this  sneer  thrown  at  him,  that  he 
wanted  to  create  another  Grattan's  Parliament.  But  this  is  not  true. 
That  parliament  was  elected  on  a  purely  Protestant  franchise.  Its 
executive  was  appointed,  not  elected.  And  still,  in  spite  of  those 
defects,  when  the  parliament  turned  its  attention  to  Irish  trade  and 
Irish  development,  they  increased  the  prosperity  of  the  country  to 
such  an  extent  in  the  space  of  twelve  years  that  the  English  govern- 
ment called  a  halt  immediately,  and  said,  "This  will  never  do."  And 
so  Pitt  began  to  put  his  clever  mind  to  work  to  see  what  could  be 
accomplished. 

IRELAND   REFUSES   SOLDIERS   TO   CRUSH   AMERI- 
CAN REVOLUTION 

To  go  back  a  little  bit.  When  your  war  was  on  with  England, 
and  England's  plan  was  to  raise  an  army  in  Ireland  to  send  over  to 
fight  you,  Ireland  declined.  She  also  wanted  to  bring  in  about  three 
or  four  thousand  Hessians  to  guard  the  Irish  coast,  while  she  was 
sending  over  an  Irish  army  to  defeat  the  Americans.  The  Irish 
people  said  "No,  thank  you.  You  can  send  your  Hessians  where 
you  like.  We  are  not  going  to  fight  Americans  and  we  are  going 
to  take  charge  of  our  own  coast."  But  there  was  no  anti-English 
movement  there  at  all.  They  found  Ireland  so  strong  on  that  that 
they  were  obliged  to  give  in.  Consequently,  you  got  the  Hessians 
and  we  stayed  at  home. 


228 

PROSPERITY  OF  IRELAND  UNDER  GRATTAN'S 
PARLIAMENT 

Now,  we  wanted  free  trade  in  Ireland.  And  when  the  Volunteers 
were  formed  and  got  their  power  they  began  to  say  they  could  not 
see  why  Ireland  should  not  have  the  right  to  trade  abroad  if  she 
wanted  to.  She  was  not  allowed  to.  And  so  she  demanded  free 
trade — the  right  to  trade  where  she  liked.  And  there  is  a  very 
famous  march  of  the  Volunteers  in  Dublin  when  they  took  up  their 
position  before  the  House  of  Parliament  with  a  cannon  trained  on 
the  House,  and  they  put  a  motto  on  the  cannon,  "Free  Trade  or 
This."  I  think  there  is  a  very  striking  parallel  there  between  your 
position  in  1774  and  this.  You  wanted  free  trade  and  you  wanted 
the  right  to  settle  your  own  taxation,  and  not  to  pay  taxation  where 
you  had  no  representation.  That  act  resulted  in  Grattan's  Parlia- 
ment. It  had  its  disabilities,  but  it  doubled  Ireland's  trade  in  a 
short  time,  and  made  it  very  prosperous. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  just  what  years  are  you 
talking  about? 

A.  That  was  in  1782.  The  Parliament  lasted  until  1800.  But  it 
really  was  effective  only  about  ten  years,  because  intrigues  destroyed 
its  power. 

Q.     The  prosperity  you  mentioned  was  during  that  period? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  building  develop  as  well  as  trade? 

A.  Yes.  But  you  must  remember  that  the  Irish  people  at  that 
time  were  ignorant,  and  being  ignorant,  they  were  poor.  The 
Catholics,  then  as  now,  were  in  the  majority.  But  the  Catholics 
did  not  have  a  vote.  The  mass  of  the  population  had  no  represen- 
tation whatever  in  the  government.  Grattan  and  Flood  and  Hely 
Hutchinson  were  all  of  them  Protestants.  No  Catholic  could  sit  in 
the  House  of  Parliament.  It  was  a  crime  punishable  by  death  to 
follow  a  Catholic  service.  No  Catholic  could  own  land  or  lend 
money  on  land.  No  Catholic  could  lend  money  and  take  in  turn 
a  mortgage  on  land,  because  that  would  mean  that  the  land  might 
revert  to  the  hands  of  Catholics,  which  was  against  the  law.  No 
Catholic  could  own  a  horse  worth  more  than  five  pounds.  If  he 
did,  any  Protestant  could  come  up  to  him  on  the  streets  and  say, 
"I  would  like  that  horse.  Here  is  five  pounds.  You  may  sell  it 
to  me."  An  incident  like  that  happened  with  a  great-granduncle 
of  my  own.  He  was  a  priest,  and  had  a  valuable  horse,  because 
he  had  long  distances  to  go  to  see  sick  people.  One  day  he  was 
held  up  by  a  terrible  scoundrel  who  was  well  known  in  the  neigh- 


229 

borhood,  and  he  was  ordered  to  dismount  from  the  horse  and  turn 
it  over.  Instead,  he  put  spurs  to  the  horse  and  got  away.  But  he 
knew  that  would  save  him  only  for  a  few  hours,  so  he  went  to  the 
Protestant  minister,  who  was  a  great  friend  of  his,  and  explained 
to  him.  And  he  said.  "That  is  easy.  You  give  me  the  horse — sell 
it  to  me.  and  1  will  loan  it  back  to  you."  And  he  did,  and  kept 
the  horse.  And  that  shows  another  thing — the  extraordinarily 
friendly  relations  between  ministers  of  religion  of  different  faiths 
when  the  country  was  in  such  a  state  that  a  Catholic  did  not  dare 
to  show  his  face  on  his  own  street. 

The  franchise,  then,  was  restricted.  Only  Protestants  could  sit 
in  Parliament.  But  they  were  Irishmen,  and  they  believed  that  the 
development  of  their  country  was  necessary.  Grattan's  Parliament 
had  its  disabilities,  but  it  was  an  honest  attempt  to  develop  Ireland 
for  the  Irish.  And  one  of  the  first  things  we  shall  do,  I  hope, 
when  we  have  cleared  out  the  army  of  occupation,  will  be  to  take 
up  the  bones  of  Grattan.  who  is  buried  in  Westminster  at  the  feet 
of  Castlereagh,  one  of  the  most  infamous  villains  in  history,  and 
we  will  take  them  back  to  Ireland. 

ACT  OF  UNION  MADE  POSSIBLE  DESTRUCTION  OF 
IRISH  INDUSTRIES 

Pitt  decided  that  the  Irish  Parliament  was  inconsistent  with  the 
rights  of  England  and  that  it  was  injuring  English  trade.  I  would 
recommend  to  you  to  read  a  book  by  Mrs.  Stopford  Green,  "The 
Making  of  Ireland  and  Its  Undoing,"  which  will  tell  you  how- 
England  has  deliberately  destroyed  Irish  industries  whenever  they 
conflicted  with  her  own. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know,  Miss  MacSwiney,  the  name  of 
the  book  which  has  been  published  which  is  a  compilation  of  all 
the  statutes  passed  by  the  British  Parliament  hostile  to  Irish  indus- 
tries, and  also  indicates  the  speeches  made  on  that  subject  in  the 
English  Parliament? 

A.     No,  I  do  not,  but  you  can  find  out,  I  think,  from  Mr.  Fawcitt. 

Q.  I  understand  there  is  such  a  book  that  contains  all  the  hostile 
statutes  and  the  purpose  of  them  and  the  speeches  made  about  them. 

A.  I  am  sorry  I  haven't  it  with  me.  But  we  are  now  living 
history  so  fast  that  the  events  of  a  few  years  ago  seem  very  far 
away  indeed.  But  if  you  want  to  know  the  purposes  of  England 
in  Ireland,  the  book  of  which  I  spoke,  "The  Grammar  of  Anarchy,'" 
containing  the  statements  of  Sir  Edward  Carson,  is  quite  sufficient, 
and  if  you  read  it  you  will  understand  why  an  Irish  Republican 


230 

got  a  term  of  imprisonment  for  having  it  in  his  possession  as  sedi- 
tious literature. 

There  are  many  instances  of  English  statutes  destroying  Irish 
industries.  One  of  the  statutes  of  William  III  was  against  the  Irish 
woollen  industry.  It  was  better  wool  than  the  English  wool  and  it 
was  quite  as  cheap.  Consequently  it  got  a  better  market  on  the 
Continent.  There  is  actually  a  petition  in  the  English  archives  from 
the  merchants  of  England  to  William  III  asking  him  point  blank 
to  destroy  the  woollen  industry  in  Ireland.  They  give  their  reason: 
We  cannot  sell  our  wool  because  the  Irish  wool  is  better.  It  sounds 
very  nice.  Nowadays  they  do  it  more  diplomatically.  William 
promised  them  that  on  the  opening  of  Parliament  he  would  see  what 
he  could  do  about  that.  And  he  did.  He  put  a  tax  of  four  shillings 
a  pound  on  Irish  wool.  And  of  course  ytfu  cannot  expect  a  French 
merchant  to  pay  that  much  tax  on  Irish  wool  when  English  wool  is 
much  cheaper  and  only  a  bit  inferior. 

ENGLISH  POLICY  IN  IRELAND  "DIVIDE  AND 
CONQUER" 

And  then  Pitt  began  his  little  tricks.  By  this  time  the  Irish 
Volunteers  began  to  admit  Catholics  to  their  ranks,  and  Catholics 
and  Protestants  all  over  the  country  began  to  work  harmoniously 
in  the  ranks  of  the  Volunteers.  At  this  time  there  was  a  dispute 
between  Flood  and  Grattan  as  to  whether  they  would  work  first  for 
Catholic  emancipation  or  work  first  for  the  development  of  the 
franchise  and  the  solidification  of  the  liberty  they  had  won.  They 
disagreed  on  that  point.  Grattan  was  for  Catholic  emancipation. 
But  as  a  Catholic  I  would  say  that  Flood  was  right. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Both  Flood  and  Grattan  were  Protestants? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  they  were  both  Protestants.  Catholics  had  no  say 
whatever  for  thirty-five  years  afterwards.  Another  Protestant,  the 
Earl  of  Charlemont,  was  commander-in-chief  of  the  Volunteers. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  there  not  a  certain  class  of  Protestants 
disqualified? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  Everyone  had  to  be  a  forty-shilling  freeholder  in 
order  to  vote.  There  were  large  masses  of  the  population  excluded, 
even  though  they  were  Protestants. 

Q.     Did  Nonconformists  vote? 

A.  Yes.  When  Catholics  finally  got  the  vote,  in  1829,  there  was 
a  rather  interesting  thing  in  connection  with  that.  Up  to  that  time 
it  had  been  forty-shilling  freeholders  who  were  allowed  to  vote. 
Immediately  there  was  a  nice  little  addition   passed.     It  was  not 


231 

forty-shilling  freeholders  any  longer,  but  ten-pound  freeholders. 
The  result  was  to  knock  out  of  voting  a  large  part  of  the  Catholic 
population  that  did  not  have  ten  pounds. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  It  was  true  all  over  the  world  at 
that  time  that  there  was  a  property  qualification. 

A.  Yes.  but  the  forty-shilling  law  held  in  England.  The  ten- 
pound  law  applied  only  to  Ireland,  you  see. 

The  Earl  of  Charlemont  was  commander-in-chief  of  the  Volun- 
teers. He  was  a  very  good  man,  no  doubt,  but  he  was  a  very  timid 
man  in  some  respects.  He  was  timid  very  largely  in  being  afraid 
of  new  innovations.  He  was  afraid  of  Catholic  emancipation.  And 
Pitt  worked  on  his  horror  and  dread  of  Catholic  emancipation  until 
he  split  the  Volunteers  over  it.  Always  the  same  British  policy — 
divide  and  conquer.  The  Volunteers  split  over  the  Earl  of  Charle- 
mont's  resignation.  The  others  wanted  to  keep  the  Volunteers 
intact  and  have  Catholics  admitted.  The  Earl  of  Charlemont  would 
not  have  the  Catholics  admitted,  and  the  Volunteers  split  over  that. 
The  Earl  of  Charlemont  was  a  timid  man  who  was  afraid,  even  at 
that  time,  that  the  pope  would  come  over  and  do  terrible  things 
in  Ireland.  Having  split  the  Volunteers,  the  next  thing  was  to  dis- 
band them-  When  Charlemont  had  them  disbanded,  those  who 
would  not  disband  formed  themselves  into  United  Irishmen,  a  defi- 
nite body  announcing  a  Republican  policy  and  declaring  for  the 
Irish  Republic. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  year  was  that? 

A.     1795,  1796,  and  1797. 

IRELAND'S   RIGHT   TO   SECURE   HELP   FROM 
ENGLAND'S  ENEMIES 

They  sent  to  America  for  American  help  and  sympathy,  and  they 
sent  to  France,  and  Napoleon  was  thinking  about  helping  us.  But 
all  the  great  powers  have  been  willing  to  help  us  only  when  it  is 
for  their  own  interests.  I  hope  America  will  be  an  exception  to  that 
rule.  France  was  at  war  with  England,  and  she  sent  over  an  expe- 
dition to  Ireland,  just  as  Germany  would  have  gladly  sent  over  an 
expedition  to  Ireland  in  the  present  war.  Ireland  would  have  wel- 
comed the  Germans  just  as  she  did  the  French.  She  had  a  right  to 
get  any  help  she  could  in  the  struggle  with  the  enemy.  Not  one  of 
your  people  would  deny  that,  if  you  would  put  justice  before  every- 
thing else.  Many  people  are  afraid  of  the  truth.  There  are  a  great 
many  good  people  who  will  tell  the  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth. 
But  the  whole  truth  sometimes   frightens  them.     And  I   have  been 


232 

told  that  I  am  likely  to  alienate  a  great  deal  of  American  sympathy 
by  acknowledging  the  plain  truth  that  we  would  have  taken  German 
help  if  we  had  got  it  in  1916.  If  that  is  so,  I  ask  Americans  of 
that  opinion  to  try  and  let  their  sense  of  justice  get  the  upper  hand 
of  their  prejudices.  The  fact  that  the  person  who  might  have  helped 
us  was  an  enemy  of  their — 

Senator  Walsh:  They  were  not  an  enemy  of  ours  then. 

The  Witness:  No,  not  an  enemy  of  yours  then.  We  were  not 
pro-German  in  the  sense  that  we  wanted  Germany  instead  of  Eng- 
land. We  were  not  pro-German  in  the  sense  that  we  wanted  Ger- 
many to  dominate  Europe.  If  Germany  had  treated  us  as  England 
has  treated  us,  she  would  have  got  the  same  treatment  that  we  are 
giving  England.  I  do  not  want  to  be  misunderstood,  and  I  am  not 
going  to  purchase  your  sympathy  by  the  sacrifice  of  one  iota  of 
the  truth.  The  truth  is  just  that.  We  were  pro-Irish  always.  If  in 
order  to  help  our  country  an  alliance  with  any  other  country  is 
necessary,  we  were  perfectly  justified  in  forming  that  alliance.  We 
would  be  sorry  if  that  alliance  would  alienate  anybody  with  whom 
we  want  to  be  friendly.  Ireland  would  always  want  to  be  allied 
with  France  rather  than  Germany,  because  France  was  near  us  for 
many  years  and  Germany  was  England's  first  cousin,  say  what  you 
will.  Our  natural  inclination  was  to  sympathize  with  France.  But 
if  we  could  have  got  Germany  as  our  ally  in  our  war  with  England, 
we  would  have  taken  her.  I  must  say  that  because  I  don't  want 
to  be  afraid  of  the  truth,  and  I  don't  want  to  purchase  any  sympathy 
by  denying  the  truth. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  were  at  the  Act  of  Union. 

ENGLISH  ATROCITIES  PROVOKE  UPRISING  OF  1798 
AS  EXCUSE  FOR  ACT  OF  UNION 

The  Witness:  The  Act  of  Union  was  passed  in  that  way.  First, 
the  Volunteers  were  alienated  from  each  other.  Having  alienated 
them,  they  were  suppressed.  A  fresh  supply  of  Hessians  were 
brought  over  and  let  loose  on  the  country.  I  cannot  dare  to  tell 
you  of  the  horrors  that  were  committed  by  those  Hessians  and  the 
English  yeomen  in  our  own  country. 

Q.     In  1798? 

A.  Yes,  in  1798.  When  England  dares  to  tell  you  of  the  atroci- 
ties of  other  countries,  she  is  simply  dishing  up  some  of  her  own 
atrocities  in  Ireland,  or  perhaps  in  Egypt  and  India  also. 

Now,  at  that  time  all  the  Irish  Volunteers  who  were  willing  to 
be  Irish  first,  formed  themselves  into  the  secret  society  of  the  United 


2:;:; 

Irishmen.  It  had  to  be  a  secret  society,  when  if  it  were  known  to 
be  in  existence  every  member  of  it  would  be  killed  on  the  spot. 
They  formed  their  society  in  secret  and  then  entered  into  the  '98 
insurrection  for  a  republic.  This  was  exactly  what  Pitt  wanted. 
He  wanted  an  insurrection  in  order  to  smash  the  growing  liberty  of 
the  people  and  give  him  an  excuse  for  the  Union.  History  is  re- 
peating itself  today.  In  order  to  get  that  insurrection,  which  the 
people  did  not  want,  because  they  were  not  ready  for  an  insurrec- 
tion, he  instituted  a  system  of  horrors  similar  to  those  of  the  Black- 
and-Tans  today.  The  English  yeomen  and  Hessians  were  just  like 
the  Black-and-Tans  today.  Devastations,  lootings,  murders,  and 
burnings  took  place  all  over  the  country  to  exasperate  the  people 
into  insurrection  before  the  people  were  ready  for  it.  That  insur- 
rection followed,  and  the  result  was  that  the  Act  of  Union  was 
passed. 

IDENTICAL  TACTICS  OF  LLOYD  GEORGE  TODAY 

^ou  have  the  same  thing  being  done  in  Ireland  today.  Lloyd 
George  wants  to  get  the  Irish  people  into  the  open  again  so  he  can 
shoot  them  down.  I  believe  that  their  prime  motive  in  letting  my 
brother  die  was  just  that.  Our  secret  service,  you  know,  has  not 
done  badly.  They  have  gotten  a  lot  of  information  about  the 
enemy's  plans.  We  know  that  today  they  want  the  Volunteers  in 
Ireland  to  come  out  into  the  open.  And  they  thought  that  since 
my  brother  had  the  confidence  and  affection  of  the  Volunteers  of 
Cork,  that  if  they  let  him  die,  the  Volunteers  would  lose  their  heads 
and  come  out  into  the  open,  and  then  they  could  shoot  them  down. 

THE  ACT  OF  UNION  PASSED  BY  SMALL  MINORITY 
WITH  FRAUD  AND   PERJURY 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  we  not  close  the  question  that  one 
of  the  members  of  the  Commission  has  asked  about,  the  Act  of 
Union,  when  it  was  passed,  and  what  the  circumstances  were? 

A.  Well,  I  want  to  give  you  the  exact  particulars  of  the  passing 
of  the  Union,  and  I  will  just  recapitulate  what  the  Parliament  was 
at  that  time.  It  was  purely  Protestant.  It  was  made  up  of  Protes- 
tant landlords  from  England — placemen.  As  Miss  Addams  has 
just  said,  the  franchise  was  not  democratic  anywhere  in  the  world 
.  at  that  time,  and  I  do  not  think  you  had  any  in  America.  They  had 
in  England,  as  in  Ireland,  too,  what  used  to  be  called  pocket 
boroughs.       That    is.    there    were    certain    districts    which    returned 


234 

parliamentary  members  where  there  was  really  no  population  at 
all.  There  was  one  district  in  Ireland,  a  pocket  borough  in  the 
possession  of  a  West  Briton  of  that  day — that  is  to  say,  a  man  whose 
interests  were  centered  in  England.  In  that  particular  district  there 
was  a  public  house  and  a  little  hamlet  of  about  ten  houses,  two 
of  which  were  inhabited  by  Protestants.  Only  two  people  in  that 
hamlet  had  the  vote,  because  they  were  the  only  Protestants.  And 
they  returned  two  members  to  Parliament.  There  were  other 
boroughs  in  which  there  were  a  half  dozen  houses  represented  by 
two  or  three  members. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  This  was  the  Irish  parliament? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     But  the  same  thing  held  true  in  England. 

Q.  You  are  explaining  the  make-up  of  the  Parliament  that 
passed  the  Union? 

A.  Yes,  and  I  am  explaining  how  it  was  that  a  Parliament 
apparently  composed  of  Irishmen  passed  the  Act  of  Union.  I  have 
told  you  that  this  Parliament  was  made  up  of  Irish  landlords  and 
English  placemen — that  is  to  say,  a  man  who  had  performed  some 
service  for  the  King,  and  was  given  land  in  Ireland,  and  was  there- 
fore entitled  to  sit  in  the  Irish  House  of  Parliament.  But  nobody 
would  call  him  an  Irishman!  That  Parliament,  great  as  was  the 
work  it  did,  was  largely  composed  of  English  placemen,  and  the 
Patriotic  Party  was  small  from  the  beginning.  The  Patriotic  Party 
was  the  Grattan  and  Flood  party.  That  Patriotic  Party  was  in- 
creased, because  even  these  placemen,  when  they  got  land  in  Ireland, 
wanted  the  land  to  be  as  prosperous  as  it  could.  And  so,  unless 
they  got  orders  to  vote  against  a  measure  from  the  people  who  gave 
them  their  places,  they  generally  voted  to  help  Irish  industries.  But 
that  was  the  composition  of  the  Parliament.  You  can  see  that  it 
voiced  only  the  minority  of  the  people,  because  Catholics  had  no 
representation  at  all.  In  the  second  place,  it  voiced  only  a  small 
minority  of  that  minority.  And  since  there  was  open  voting,  no 
man  who  had  a  vote  dared  vote  against  his  landlord.  If  he  did, 
then  he  lost  his  holding  at  once.  If  you  quite  grasp  that,  you  see 
it  was  quite  easy  to  corrupt  a  parliament  of  that  kind.  Pitt  began 
by  giving  a  good  many  placemen  the  right  to  hold  land  in  Ireland. 
It  might  be  only  a  few  acres:  that  made  no  matter;  they  were  land- 
owners. Then  he  got  these  placemen  to  buy  up  all  the  pocket 
boroughs.  You  had,  we  will  say,  a  borough  there  which  contained 
nobody,  but  returned  two  members  to  Parliament.  These  were  sold 
for  fifty  thousand  pounds,  sixty  thousand  pounds,  or  ten  thousand 
pounds  only,  if  they  were  small  ones.  But  they  were  openly  sold. 
The  transaction  of  the  buying  and  selling  of  seats  can  be  found  in 


235 

certain  documents,  even  to  the  present  day.  And  anybody  who 
will  take  the  trouble  to  read  the  life  and  letters  of  Lord  Castlereagh, 
which  is  published  in  six  volumes,  I  believe,  can  see  how  openly 
they  boasted  of  the  buying  and  selling  of  parliamentary  seats. 
There  is  a  poem  in  Ireland  that  begins:  "How  did  they  pass  the 
Union?  By  forgery  and  fraud;  by  perjury  and  corruption  of  every 
kind."  I  do  not  know  the  rest  of  it.  And  when  I  emphasize  that 
point,  I  want  to  emphasize  with  it  that  it  was  not  the  Irish  people 
who  sold  their  Parliament.  The  Irish  people,  the  bulk  of  them, 
had  no  voice  in  their  country  at  all.  The  majority  of  the  Protes- 
tants in  the  country,  who  had  no  franchise,  would  not  have  done 
that. 

Now,  suppose  that  tomorrow  morning  you  had  a  Congress  who 
were  in  English  pay  and  under  English  influence.  I  am  only  taking 
that  as  a  supposition.  You  may  be  dominated  by  men  under  Eng- 
lish influence,  perhaps,  because  they  have  their  roots  in  the  May- 
flower; but  they  are  not  in  England's  pay.  But  these  were  men 
placed  in  the  Irish  parliament  to  vote  for  what  England  wanted 
them  to  vote  for.  and  they  carried  out  the  contract.  Suppose  that 
Congress  tomorrow  passed  a  vote  by  a  majority  handing  you  over 
and  deciding  that  you  would  have  a  union  with  England,  and  that 
the  English  king  was  to  be  your  king  again.  Or  suppose  that  it 
passed  a  vote  handing  you  over  to  Germany.  I  do  not  think  the 
majority  of  the  American  people  could  possibly  be  said  to  desire 
a  union  with  England  or  Germany  under  those  circumstances.  Yet 
these  are  the  circumstances  under  which  England  got  the  Act  of 
Union  passed.  She  bought  up  all  the  pocket  boroughs  and  placed 
sufficient  men  in  the  Irish  Parliament  to  pass  the  Act  of  Union. 
And  that  was  how  the  Act  of  Union  was  passed.  When  England 
says,  "The  Irish  people  passed  the  Act  of  Union  and  wanted  to  be 
united  with  us,"  go  and  tell  her  to  read  history — read  Lecky,  who 
certainly  is  not  an  Irishman.  Froude,  the  historian,  will  tell  the 
truth.  Gladstone  himself  says  it  is  the  blackest  stain  on  England's 
history,  the  Act  of  Union. 

ENGLISH  DEBT  SADDLED  ON  IRELAND  BY  FRAUD 

And  even  then  they  did  not  keep  their  word.  When  they  passed 
the  Union  they  made  a  solemn  promise  that  the  English  and  Irish 
exchequers  were  to  be  kept  separate.  The  reason  was  that  Ireland 
had  a  national  debt  of  two  and  one-half  million  pounds.  England 
had  a  national  debt  of  over  two  hundred  million  pounds.  Those 
seem  very  small  sums  in  today's  computations.     After  the  Act  of 


236 

Union  in  1801,  Ireland's  debt  was  twenty-one  million  pounds. 
Where  did  it  get  up  to  that  sum?  She  bribed  these  men,  England 
did,  in  the  House  of  Parliament  to  pass  the  Union,  and  then  she 
paid  the  bribes  out  of  Irish  money.  And  then  she  promised  that 
the  exchequers  would  be  separate.  In  1817  the  English  national 
debt,  owing  to  the  Napoleonic  Wars,  had  gone  up  to  something  like 
four  hundred  fifty  million  pounds.  The  Irish  national  debt  had 
gone  up,  I  think,  to  something  like  twenty-five  million.  And  Eng- 
land suggested  that  it  would  be  very  nice  for  Ireland  if  they  amalga- 
mated their  exchequers.  The  Irishmen  representing  Ireland  in  the 
English  Parliament  at  that  time  did  not  think  it  would  be  nice  for 
Ireland  to  saddle  Ireland  with  that  debt.  But  of  course  they  were 
outvoted.  So  the  two  exchequers  were  amalgamated.  One  clause 
of  the  Act  of  Union  was  that  they  should  not  be  amalgamated.  But 
they  were  amalgamated  as  soon  as  it  suited  England.  From  that 
time  to  the  present  day  Ireland  has  been  in  the  control  of  England. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Grattan  and  his  party  then  opposed  the  Act 
of  Union? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  absolutely. 

Q.  Was  it  just  before  the  Act  of  Union  that  Grattan  was  carried 
into  the  House  of  Parliament  on  his  sick  bed  to  make  his  protest? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  carried  in,  practically  a  dying  man,  and  made  an 
eloquent  protest  against  it. 

Q.     What  was  the  vote?     Was  it  close? 

A.     I  cannot  recall  it.    It  was  close. 

FINANCIAL    COMPETENCY    OF   IRELAND    PROVED 
BY  REPORT  OF  ENGLISH  COMMISSION 

I  would  like  to  say  another  thing  about  financial  matters  of  that 
period.  Before  the  war,  while  the  Home  Rule  bill  was  being  dis- 
cussed, we  were  told  that  Ireland  could  not  possibly  govern  herself. 
As  it  was,  she  could  not  pay  her  own  way;  that  England  had  to 
subsidize  her  to  the  extent  of  half  a  million  a  year;  and  what  would 
she  do  if  she  were  her  own  mistress  and  England  would  not  be  able 
to  subsidize  her?  This  was  one  of  the  economic  points  brought  up 
against  Irish  Home  Rule.  Ireland  never  got  a  subsidy  of  half  a 
million  a  year  from  England.  She  got  it  one  year,  and  I  will  tell 
you  how  it  happened.  The  old-age  pension  was  passed,  giving  to 
each  old  person  over  seventy  several  shillings  a  week. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  This  was  quite  recent? 

A.  Yes,  it  was  quite  recent,  but  I  must  go  back  to  give  you  an 
idea.     You  can  get  from  reliable  statistics  an   idea  of  how  many 


237 

old  people  in  the  country  there  ought  to  be.  Owing  to  England's 
misgovernment  of  the  country  and  the  way  she  had  impoverished 
it,  the  proportion  of  old  people  in  Ireland  was  perfectly  abnormal. 
All  the  young  men  and  women  had  gone  out  of  the  country.  In- 
deed, their  emigration  was  encouraged  and  subsidized  by  England. 
In  consequence,  the  proportion  of  old  people  was  much  greater  than 
it  was  in  any  other  country.  The  result  was  that  that  year  there 
was  a  deficit  of  a  half  million,  and  England  used  that  one  year  to 
say  that  she  was  subsidizing  the  Irish  exchequer  to  the  extent  of 
half  a  million  pounds  a  year. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  year  was  that? 

A.     That  was  1912,  I  think. 

When  the  Home  Rule  Bill  became  an  issue  of  practical  politics, 
they  wanted  to  adjust  the  financial  relations  between  the  two  coun- 
tries, and  consequently  there  was  a  commission  appointed  by  the 
King  to  inquire  into  the  financial  condition  of  Ireland  from  1817 
— that  was  the  date  the  exchequers  were  combined — to  1908.  That 
was  about  one  hundred  years.  This  was  known  as  the  Childers 
Commission,  presided  over  by  the  uncle  of  the  present  Erskine 
Childers.  It  was  an  English  commission  appointed  by  the  King. 
They  went  into  all  the  statistics  from  1817  to  1908.  They  pub- 
lished their  statistics.  That  can  be  found  in  all  the  blue  books.  I 
am  giving  you  only  the  results  now.  They  found  that  from  that 
period  Ireland  had  paid  all  her  own  expenses,  every  single  penny — 
all  the  expenses,  including  the  army  and  navy  expenses  in  Ireland, 
which  is  not  really  an  Irish  expense.  She  had  covered  the  whole 
of  it,  and  had  in  addition  paid  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million 
pounds  into  the  English  exchequer.  So  that  during  the  period  when 
we  were  supposed  to  be  an  impoverished  country,  we  had  paid  three 
hundred  sixty-nine  millions  into  the  English  treasury. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  That  was  from  income  taxes,  excise  duties, 
and  so  forth? 

A.  Yes,  all  the  income  of  the  country,  after  the  expenses  were 
paid.  And  yet  England  has  the  impertinence  to  say  that  Ireland  is 
a  bankrupt  country!  Those  facts  are  given  by  the  Parliamentary 
Commission  which  began  sitting  in  1908  and  reported  and  gave  its 
findings  in  1911.  And  remember  what  we  had  been  through  during 
that  time — the  Tithe  War,  the  Fenian  movement,  the  Land  Wars, 
and  all  those  experiences.  We  had  been  through  the  terrible  period 
of  the  famine.  And  yet  all  that  expense  was  paid  for  by  Ireland, 
and  that  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million  pounds  left  over.  I  think 
that  when  we  send  out  the  army  of  occupation,  we  are  entitled  to 
get  back  that  three  hundred  sixty-nine  million  pounds. 


238 

Senator  Walsh :  Let  us  get  ours  first. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  we  will  forgive  her  every  penny  of  it  if  she 
will  only  take  out  her  army  and  let  us  alone. 

I  would  like  to  suggest  that  the  first  relief  ship  that  came  to 
relieve  the  distress  of  America  came  from  Ireland. 

\ 

BENEFICIAL   EFFECTS   OF   LAND   ACTS   WRESTED 

FROM  ENGLAND 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  You  might  discuss,  while  we  are  on  this  point, 
some  of  the  great  benefit  that  has  been  given  to  the  people  of  Ire- 
land by  allowing  them  to  purchase  their  land. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  When  you  discuss  that,  will  you  not  discuss 
that  land  levy,  please?  How  much  alien  landlordism  still  exists, 
how  the  people  were  allowed  to  purchase  land,  and  so  forth? 

A.  I  will  do  my  best,  but  I  cannot  be  very  accurate  on  per- 
centages. The  landlord  question  was  very  vital  to  us.  While  it  was 
a  sectional  war,  yet  the  goal  all  the  time  was  freedom,  and  therefore 
those  of  you  who  have  gone  into  the  study  of  history  a  bit,  just 
take  a  broad  view  of  that.  It  was  necessary  to  get  it  done,  and  we 
do  not  worry  very  much  about  statistics.     But  I  will  do  my  best. 

The  land  acts  have  been  very  beneficial  to  the  country.  But  they 
were  not  passed  by  England  to  benefit  the  country.  They  were 
passed  by  the  campaign  in  Ireland  of  Parnell  and  the  Land  League, 
in  the  early  eighties,  I  believe.  That  part  of  history  has  not  been 
written  yet,  at  least  not  very  fully.  I  have  never  read  it,  at  least. 
I  cannot  give  you  full  details,  but  this,  at  all  events,  is  the  outline 
of  it.  When  Parnell  carried  on  his  Constitutional  Movement,  he 
felt  that  it  was  very  necessary  to  get  the  land  for  the  people.  The 
farmers  could  do  nothing,  because  if  there  was  an  adverse  vote  in 
the  district  against  a  landowner's  plans  or  against  England,  the 
farmers  all  got  notice  of  ejectment.  They  had  no  security  of  tenure 
for  their  lands.  It  certainly  was  a  wise  move  for  the  people  to  get 
the  land  tenure  fixed.  But  England  never  gave  those  land  acts  as 
an  act  of  justice.  When  the  Fenians  blew  up  Clerkenwell  prison, 
Gladstone  took  it  into  his  head  in  1871  that  there  was  something 
behind  the  movement,  and  he  had  better  do  something  for  those 
people.  I  could  not  give  the  details  of  that  Act,  but  I  will  come 
to  the  last  Act,  the  Wyndham  Act,  which  has  been  very  beneficial. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  date? 

A.  In  1903,  I  think.  That  Act  has  been  very  beneficial.  It  has 
enabled  the  farmers  to  buy   out  their  land.     They  could  pay  rent 


239 

for  twenty  or  twenty-five  years,  and  at  the  end  of  that  time  their 
land  was  their  own. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  They  paid  so  much  on  the  principal  as  well 
as  the  interest? 

A.  Yes.  Immediately  that  Act  was  passed,  the  farmers  started 
to  improve  their  land.  They  did  not  do  it  before,  because  they 
had  no  security  of  tenure.  Do  you  know,  in  that  period  if  a  mother 
put  a  clean  pinafore  on  her  child,  she  had  her  rent  raised  from 
two  to  ten  pounds  a  year.  And  any  woman  would  say,  "Is  it  not 
better  for  a  child  to  have  a  dirty  pinafore  than  to  have  the  rent 
raised?"  And  that  is  why  you  hear  the  Irish  described  as  a  lazy, 
dirty  people  sometimes. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  that  apply  to  the  whole  country? 
A.  Yes,  to  Ulster  just  as  much  as  the  rest.  That  Land  Act  gave 
the  people  the  right  to  purchase  their  farms.  The  instant  the  farm- 
ers could  purchase,  they  went  on  improving  and  improving  and 
improving.  Why?  Because  they  knew  they  were  doing  that  for 
their  sons  and  their  daughters,  and  they  knew  they  would  not  be 
thrown  out  of  it  next  week.  If  a  man  put  a  new  paling  up  around 
his  field,  he  knew  that  his  rent  would  go  up  several  pounds  the 
next  week,  and  consequently  the  paling  was  not  put  up.  If  too 
many  improvements  were  made,  the  farmer  could  be  ejected  and 
lose  them  all.  But  the  moment  the  farmers  got  their  security,  they 
improved  their  farms.  And  consequently  you  have  a  good  many 
prosperous  farms  all  over  Ireland  today. 

Q.     How  many  farms  have  been   converted  in  that  way  up   to 
today?     Two-thirds  of  them? 
A.     I  don't  know.     Perhaps. 
Senator  Walsh:  It  is  not  as  much  as  that. 
Q.     Chairman  Howe:  And  it  has  led  to  improvements? 
A.     Yes.      But   the   buildings!      Some    of   them    are    very    ugly. 
They  do  not  build  their  houses  beautiful.     I  wish  we  had  a  law  to 
make  them.     At  all  events,  the  houses  are  comfortable,  well  built, 
and  much  better  than  the  old  unhygienic  detached  buildings. 

Q.  How  prosperous  is  the  agricultural  population  of  Ireland 
today? 

A.  Of  course,  the  agricultural  population  benefited  by  the  war, 
as  all  agricultural  populations  did.  They  got  high  prices  for  their 
crops,  as  all  of  them  did.  Some  of  them  were  unpatriotic  enough 
to  sell  too  much  of  the  country's  food,  and  some  of  them  had  to 
be  stopped.  I  do  not  know  whether  you  know  of  the  incident  that 
happened  in  Dublin  when  the  Volunteers  stopped  the  exportation 
of  food  because  they  were  sending  too  much  of  it  away.     A  gentle- 


240 

man  in  this  country  now,  Mr.  Lynch,  was  our  food  controller  at  the 
time,  and  he  ordered  that  no  more  pigs  should  be  exported.  But 
the  people  did  not  think  that  the  Irish  government  would  have  to 
be  obeyed.  There  was  a  large  consignment  of  pigs  going  off  to 
England  one  night,  and  the  food  controller  ordered  them  to  be 
stopped.  The  pigs  were  taken  off  and  turned  into  an  abattoir  and 
slaughtered,  and  the  price  was  paid  to  the  owner.  That  had  to  be 
done  in  a  summary  fashion,  but  it  was  a  necessary  act  of  govern- 
ment. 

ENGLAND  PLACES  EMBARGO  ON  BEST  IRISH  PORT 

Q.  There  have  been  a  number  of  statements  made  about  eco- 
nomic embargoes  on  Ireland  by  the  British  government.  Can  you 
tell  us  anything  about  them? 

A.  I  know  they  have  put  an  embargo  on  everything  they  could. 
They  have  put  an  embargo  on  our  best  port,  the  port  of  Queens- 
town.  Once  Queen  Victoria  visited  us,  and  the  sycophantic  council 
of  that  day  (for  then  it  was  only  that  kind  they  could  get  into  the 
council)  ordered  in  her  honor  that  the  port  should  be  called 
Queenstown.  But  we  do  not  recognize  it  as  Queenstown.  I  would 
like  our  friends  in  America  to  get  into  the  habit  of  calling  it  Cove, 
the  Irish  name  for  it. 

MONEY    ADVANCED    TO    FARMERS    UNDER    LAND 
ACTS  NOT  AN  ENGLISH  GIFT 

There  was  a  question  about  one  hundred  million  pounds  loaned 
to  farmers  in  Ireland.  That  one  hundred  million  pounds  was  very 
beneficial,  but  I  would  like  you  to  understand  that  the  security 
given  by  the  farmers  was  quite  adequate,  and  that  the  people  who 
are  paying  the  money  are  Irish.  It  was  advanced  by  England  for 
the  time  being,  but  it  is  Ireland  that  is  paying  the  debt.  But  do 
not  let  them  hypnotize  you  into  believing  that  that  money  was  given 
by  England,  for  it  was  not.  England  and  France  borrowed  huge 
sums  from  America  during  the  war,  and  they  borrowed  it  without 
giving  you  security.  But  you  do  not  say  that  you  have  given  them 
a  present  of  all  their  war  debt.  And  this  loan  is  very  largely  paid 
back  already,  and  paid  back  out  of  Irish  money. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  it  was  paid  back  to  absentee  land- 
lords and  those  who  have  succeeded  to  their  estates,  was  it  not? 

A.  Yes.  And  there  is  a  very  large  number  of  farms  where  the 
payments  have  been  completed,  and  that  money  has  all  gone  back 


241 

to  England.  I  believe  the  great  bulk  of  thai  money  lias  been  already 
paid  back. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  To  what  extent  has  alien  landlordism  pre- 
vailed as  it  did  in  the  Hungry  Forties? 

A.  Not  much.  There  are  very  few  big  landlords  today.  They 
may  spend  a  part  of  the  year  in  England  or  abroad,  but  generally 
those  that  are  left  spend  a  part  of  the  year  in  Ireland.  The  alien 
landlord  of  the  early  nineteenth  century  has  gone.  There  are  very 
few  of  them  left  now. 

Q.     That  question  does  not  figure  at  all  any  more? 

A.     No,  not  much  any  more. 

Now,  about  the  embargoes.  I  wish  I  had  Mr.  Fawcitt  here.  He 
has  all  that  on  his  fingertips  and  could  give  it  better  than   I. 

Senator  Walsh:  He  is  coming,  I  believe. 

The  Witness:  Will  you  ask  him,  then? 

Chairman  Howe:  I  did  not  know  but  what  you  are  familiar  with 
the  industrial  issues. 

The  Witness:  I  am,  but  I  cannot  give  you  exact  figures  as  he 
could. 

ORGANIZATION    OF    REPUBLICAN    GOVERNMENT 
FOLLOWS  ELECTION  VICTORY 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  would  like  to  have  you 
give  us  for  the  record  just  when  there  was  organized  in  Ireland  the 
de  facto  Republican  government,  who  organized  it,  how  long  the 
Parliament  continued  to  meet  in  the  open,  when  it  began  to  meet 
secretly,  and  if  it  is  meeting  now,  how  long  it   will  continue. 

A.  I  would  like  to  answer  the  last  question  first,  because  it  is 
meeting  and  will  continue  to  do  so. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  get  in  the  record  how  much  of  local  govern- 
ment there  is  and  how  it  is  functioning,  and  if  it  will  continue  to 
function. 

A.  The  Republic  was  declared  in  1916,  but  for  two  years  there 
was  no  government  to  function,  until  the  general  election  of  1918. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  made  your  declaration  of  independence 
in  1916,  but  it  took  you  two  years  to  get  your  government  organized 
so  that  it  could  function  openly? 

A.  Exactly.  There  were  seven  Irish  Volunteer  leaders  in  the 
Dublin  General  Postoffice  on  Easter  Monday  in  1916,  who  in  the 
name  of  the  Republican  Army  declared  Ireland  a  free  and  inde- 
pendent  Republic.        They    were    Padraic   Pearse,    Thomas    Clarke, 


242 

John  MacDermott,  Connolly,  Kent,  Plunkett,  and  MacDonagh,  and 
they  were  all  executed  for  it  afterwards. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  They  were  executed  for  that  offense — for 
signing  your  declaration  of  independence? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  chief  thing  for  which  they  were  executed. 
Q.     Senator  Walsh:  The  elections  took  place  in  1918? 
A.     Yes.     And  immediately  after  the  general  elections  the  Re- 
publican Parliament  got  busy. 

Q.     Were  the  members  of  that  Republican  Parliament  the  Re- 
publican members  who  were  elected  to  the  British  Parliament  from 
the  boroughs  or  constituencies  in  Ireland? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.     So  that  upward  of  seventy-five  men  who  received  a  majority 
as  Republican  members  of  the  British  Parliament  at  London  from 
Ireland,  these  men  met  to  form  the  Irish  de  facto  Government? 
A.     Right,  quite  right. 

Q.     How  many  altogether  were  elected  from  Irish  constituencies 
to  the  British  Parliament? 
A.     One  hundred  and  three. 

Q.     How  many  of  that  number  met  in  Dublin,  or  wherever  they 
met  afterwards,  to  organize  the  Republican  Government  of  Ireland? 
A.     I  think  that  at  the  very  first  meeting  of  Dail  Eireann  there 
were  only  37,  for  all  the  others  were  in  jail. 

Q.     How  many  joined  in  the  call?     I  want  it  for  the  record. 
A.     I  think  it  was  37. 
Q.     How  many  went  to  England? 

A.  None  of  the  Republicans  went  to  England.  The  only  Irish 
who  went  were  the  Redmondites  and  the  Carsonites. 

Q.  It  was  alleged  in  America  that  sixty  or  seventy  or  so  did 
not  go  to  the  British  Parliament,  and  joined,  either  de  facto  or  in 
person,  to  the  call  for  an  independent  Parliament. 

A.  Yes.  You  see,  there  were  seventy-five  members  elected,  but 
some  of  them  were  elected  from  two  or  three  constituencies.  Presi- 
dent de  Valera  was  elected  from  three  constituencies. 

Q.  How  many  constituencies  were  represented  at  the  first  meet- 
ing, either  by  those  present  in  person  or  in  jail? 

A.  I  suppose  it  would  be  about  sixty-nine  men,  but  the  con- 
stituencies represented  were  seventy-five. 

Q.     So  that  seventy-five  constituencies  out  of  one  hundred  three 
sent  representatives  to  get  a  Republican  organization? 
A.     Yes. 


243 

IRISH   PARLIAMENT  MEETS  OPENLY   UNTIL 
PROSCRIBED 

Q.     Where  did  they  meet? 

A.     In  the  Mansion  House  in  Dublin. 

Q.     But  some  of  them  were  not  there,  because  they  were  in  jail. 

A.  Yes.  President  de  Valera  was  in  jail,  and  my  brother  was 
in  jail,  and  a  number  of  others  at  that  time. 

Q.  What  steps  did  they  take?  Was  this  first  meeting  in  the 
open? 

A.     Yes,  oh,  yes. 

Q.  Now,  give  us  the  history  of  that  organization.  It  is  very 
important. 

A.  As  so  many  were  in  prison,  the  government  elected  was  only 
provisional.  Because  you  must  remember  that  the  cream  of  the 
men  were  in  jail,  and  those  who  were  left  felt  that  they  should 
wait  until  they  got  all  their  comrades  together  before  electing  a 
regular  government.  So  they  elected  only  a  provisional  govern- 
ment. That  was  in  January,  1919.  In  March  there  was  a  general 
amnesty.  It  was  in  connection  with  the  German  plot  idea  of  May, 
1918,  that  they  were  put  into  prison.  In  March,  1919,  they  let  them 
all  out.  And  then  they  had  the  election  of  the  Irish  Government. 
President  de  Valera  was  elected  president,  and  Arthur  Griffith  was 
elected  vice-president;  and  the  names  of  the  others  I  would  rather 
not  give  for  state  reasons.  Some  of  them  are  known  and  some  of 
them  are  not  known. 

Q.     But  a  complete  organization  was  effected? 

A.  A  complete  organization  was  effected,  and  the  first  resolution 
to  be  passed  was  that  Irish  would  be  spoken  in  the  Irish  Parliament, 
although  English  could  not  under  the  circumstances  be  excluded 
entirely,  and  that  all  the  records  of  the  Parliament  should  be  in 
Irish.  English  could  not  be  kept  out  altogether,  because  some  of  the 
older  men  could  not  learn  to  speak  Irish.  But  all  the  records  are 
in  Irish,  and  all  who  can  speak  Irish  use  it. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  continue  to  function  openly  in  the  eyes 
of  the  British  officials? 

A.  I  think  the  first  attempt  to  smother  them  up  was  on  the  occa- 
sion of  the  American  delegation's  visit  to  Ireland  in  1919.  Senator 
Frank  Walsh,  you  were  on  that  delegation,  I  think. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  No,  I'm  not  a  senator. 

The  Witness:  I  got  mixed  up,  and  it  doesn't  matter.  Coming 
events  cast  their  shadows  before,  perhaps. 


244 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Not  for  those  who  are  here,  with  all  due  defer- 
ence to  them. 

The  Witness:  You  see,  the  Irish  Parliament  only  held  a  few  ses- 
sions in  the  open;  and  then  the  word  was  passed  around  that  there 
was  going  to  be  a  meeting  of  Dail  Eireann,  and  the  public  was 
admitted.  But  the  enemy  did  not  get  word  beforehand.  They  really 
held  their  meetings  in  public  for  twelve  months,  or  nearly  twelve 
months  at  any  rate.  But  they  have  been  able  to  do  almost  as  much 
meeting  in  secret.  They  immediately  compiled  statistics  as  to  the 
conditions  of  the  fisheries  and  of  agriculture,  and  the  condition  of 
the  ports,  and  the  improvements  that  could  be  made.  They  have 
done  all  the  ordinary  work  of  government,  and  have  done  it  very 
well  and  very  effectively. 

NINE-TENTHS    OF    LOCAL    COUNCILS    RENOUNCE 
ALLEGIANCE  TO  BRITAIN 

Senator  Walsh:  Up  to  this  time  the  municipal  and  county  council 
members  had  not  declared  themselves  openly  and  publicly  as  to 
whether  they  were  still  holding  allegiance  to  the  British  Government 
or  not? 

A.     That  is  quite  true. 

Q.  Then  the  elections  came,  in  1920,  when  that  issue  was  pre- 
sented for  all  candidates  for  office  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  state  how  many  elected  members  to  the 
municipal  councils  and  county  councils  declared  under  oath  their 
abandonment  of  allegiance  to  the  British  Government  and  swore 
their  allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic? 

A.  All  the  county  councils  in  the  south  and  west  of  Ireland,  in 
what  are  called  the  chief  provinces,  and  I  think  three  or  four  in 
Ulster.     But  all  of  the  south  and  west. 

Q.     What  per  cent,  would  that  be? 

A.  That  would  be  twenty-seven  out  of  thirty-two.1  There  are 
thirty-two  counties  in  Ireland.  There  are  nine  in  Ulster.  Out  of 
that  nine  in  Ulster,  there  were  four,  I  think — I  am  pretty  certain 
of  four — that  declared  themselves  for  Dail  Eireann. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  have  seen  the  statement  in  some  English 
paper  that  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  county  and  municipal  councils 
had  declared  their  allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic. 

A.     It  was  fully  ninety-one  per  cent.1 


See  note,  page  155. 


245 


Q.  So  that  in  1920  you  had,  in  addition  to  the  Irish  national 
Parliament,  some  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  municipal  and  county 
councils  recognizing  the  Irish  Government  and  declaring  that  they 
no  longer  gave  allegiance  to  the  English  Government? 

A.     Right. 

REPUBLICAN  COURTS  SUPPLANT  ENGLISH 
JUDICIARY 

Q.  Now,  to  what  extent  did  the  courts  and  judicial  functions 
of  Ireland  pass  from  the  control  of  the  British  government  to  the 
Irish  government  itself? 

A.     It  passed  almost  ahsolutely. 

Q.     Give  us  the  figures,  please. 

A.  I  do  not  know  what  you  mean  by  figures.  Wherever  the 
Irish  Republicans  gained  the  elections — 

Q.  What  I  want  to  do  is  to  get  what  you  claim  the  facts  are, 
so  that  your  friends  in  America  can  get  the  truth. 

A.  Wherever  the  councils  had  declared  allegiance  to  Dail 
Eireann — that  was  in  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  counties — the  courts 
were  established  immediately.  At  first  the  courts  were  not  noticed 
very  much  by  the  British  Government.  She  did  not  like  them,  but 
she  had  no  law  which  could  absolutely  forbid  them.  Arbitration 
courts  were  legal.  And  these  courts,  under  the  head  of  arbitration 
courts,  began  their  functioning. 

Q.  So  that  ninety-one  per  cent,  of  the  elected  representatives  of 
the  people  established  arbitration  courts? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  But  you  must  remember  that  they  came  on 
only  gradually. 

Q.  Yes,  I  understand.  But  previous  to  this  movement  the  judi- 
cial control  of  Ireland  was  never  a  matter  of  local  control;  it  was 
always  a  matter  of  British  control? 

A.     Yes,  always. 

Q.  So  that  the  entire  judiciary  was  appointed  by  the  British 
Government? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     So  what  became  of  them? 

A.  They  sat  in  state  in  empty  courts,  surrounded  by  barbed  wire 
and  soldiers.  And  they  waited  for  cases,  and  none  came.  In  one 
case — I  would  like  to  have  you  notice  that  when  the  judge  came  to 
the  city  he  was  always  lodged  at  one  of  the  friendly  houses  in  the 
city,  in  what  would  correspond  to  your  Four  Hundred,  I  suppose. 
And  when  the  arbitration  courts  began  to  function,  the  Irish  Parlia- 


246 

ment  said  that  these  judges  were  forbidden  to  hold  their  courts. 
The  result  was  that  when  the  judge  came  to  Cork  there  was  no 
lodging  for  him.  He  could  not  sleep  in  the  barracks,  because  it 
was  against  English  law  in  some  way.  And  so  he  had  to  sleep  in 
the  courthouse. 

Q.  So  that  in  Cork  there  was  not  only  no  court  for  the  judge, 
but  not  even  a  bed? 

A.     Yes,  not  even  a  bed. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Were  there  no  hotels? 

A.  There  are  hotels,  but  the  judge,  you  see,  in  Ireland  is  always 
an  obnoxious  person.  You  see,  he  was  in  the  pay  of  the  enemy, 
and  he  was  doing  the  enemy's  business,  and  he  always  came  sur- 
rounded with  a  great  deal  of  police  and  military.  And  so  he  did 
not  consider  it  safe  to  stay  in  the  hotel. 

Q.     How  many  of  these  judges  have  resigned  their  positions? 

A.  Many  of  the  magistrates  have  resigned.  They  sit  in  the  petty 
courts. 

Q.     Are  they  elected  officials? 

A.  No.  The  Local  Government  Bill  gave  the  right  for  nation- 
alists to  become  J.  P.'s.    But  they  have  many  of  them  resigned  now. 

Q.  But  the  judiciary,  the  English  judiciary  has  practically  dis- 
appeared? 

A.     Yes.     But  they  sit  there  yet  for  purposes  of  state,  I  think. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Now  let  us  come  to  the  police  force.  To 
what  extent  does  the  old  Irish  police  force,  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary, exist  to  this  day?  To  what  extent  has  the  old  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  disappeared  by  resignations  or  by  severing  alle- 
giance to  the  British  crown,  and  gone  over  to  the  Republican  move- 
ment? 

A.  Several  hundreds  of  them  have  resigned.  I  do  not  know 
how  many  of  them  have  gone  over  to  the  Republican  movement. 
They  have  not  gone  over  as  police.  They  would  not  be  accepted 
as  police.  They  have  been  trained  very  largely  as  spies,  and  they 
have  been  trained  to  spy  on  each  other.  When  we  set  up  a  police 
force,  it  will  be  a  police  force  such  as  the  R.  I.  C.  never  was. 

Q.     That  force  has  largely  broken  down? 

A.     Yes,   although  it  has  been   largely  recruited  from  England. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  I  would  like  to  ask  Miss  MacSwiney 
a  question  in  regard  to  the  resident  magistrates.  The  resident  magis- 
trate is  a  paid  official? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  a  paid  official  appointed  by  the  British  Government. 

Q.     What  has  become  of  them? 

A.     They  have  continued  to  sit  in  their  courts.     If  a  policeman 


247 

catches  something  like  a  petty  thief,  he  will  bring  them  up  before 
the  court.     But  the  court  is  empty  most  of  the  time. 

Q.     Have  not  many  of  them  resigned? 

A.  No.  not  many.  They  have  nice,  comfortable  jobs,  you  know, 
and  are  always  selected  from  the  anti-Irish  population.  Not  many 
of  them  have  resigned. 

AUTHORITY    OF    REPUBLICAN    COURTS    DERIVED 
FROM    UNANIMOUS    CONSENT    OF   PEOPLE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Does  the  authority  of  the  Irish  courts 
rest  upon  the  consent  of  the  people  or  upon  some  oilier  force? 

A.  Upon  the  consent  of  the  population  entirely.  And  I  do  not 
think  anything  could  show  the  truth  about  the  false  contention  put 
out  by  England  that  we  are  not  a  law-abiding  people  better  than 
the  success  of  these  courts,  with  only  moral  force,  in  many  cases, 
to  enforce  their  decrees.  We  are  a  law-abiding  people  absolutely, 
if  we  are  given  a  chance  to  have  our  own  laws. 

I  would  like  to  stress  the  good  the  courts  did  in  bringing  together 
the  people.  Unionists  brought  their  cases  to  the  Irish  courts. 
Protestants  brought  their  cases  to  the  Irish  courts.  And  although 
they  may  not  have  ceased  to  be  Unionists,  they  have  come  to  the 
conclusion  that  if  they  want  their  claims  settled,  they  must  bring 
them  into  the  Republican  courts.  There  was  one  case  where  a 
Protestant  landlord  had  a  case  which  he  felt  he  must  have  settled, 
and  so  he  took  it  to  the  Irish  courts.  And  his  friends  were  shocked, 
and  remonstrated.  And  he  said,  "I  do  not  care.  If  I  take  it  into 
the  English  courts  I  might  get  a  just  judgment,  but  it  will  not  be 
obeyed.  And  if  I  take  it  into  the  Irish  courts  I  will  get  a  just  judg- 
ment and  it  will  be  obeyed."  And  he  did  get  a  just  judgment  and 
it  was  obeyed. 

There  is  a  rather  interesting  incident  in  connection  with  those 
courts.  Three  men  were  arrested  for  breaking  clown  a  wall.  They 
were  convicted  in  a  Republican  court.  One  consented  to  repair  the 
damage,  and  the  other  two  refused.  We  have  no  jails.  However, 
it  happened  to  be  on  the  coast  of  Galway.  So  these  gentlemen  were 
taken  to  one  of  these  islands  off  the  coast  of  Galway.  They  were 
given  food  and  everything,  for  we  believe  in  treating  our  prisoners 
humanely.  After  a  couple  of  days  the  British  police  heard  wheie 
they  were,  and  went  out  in  a  boat  to  rescue  them.  But  when  the 
British  police  came  out,  these  prisoners  stoned  the  police  and  said 
to  go  away,  that  they  were  prisoners  of  the  Irish  republic  and 
would  not  be  molested. 


248 

REMARKABLE   ABSENCE   OF    CRIME   IN   IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  nearly  all  the  civil  litigation  and  crimi- 
nal litigation  carried  on  in  these  Irish  courts, — in  the  Republican 
courts  of  Ireland? 

A.  The  civil  litigation  altogether.  The  criminal  litigation  would 
be  a  burden  if  there  were  much  of  it.  But  it  is  not  an  excessive 
exaggeration  to  say  that  there  is  no  crime  in  Ireland.  That  would 
be  true  before  the  trouble  started  rather  than  now,  since  the  Black - 
and-Tans  came.  In  Ireland  there  is  a  custom  that  when  a  judge 
goes  on  circuit  and  has  no  serious  cases  to  try,  he  is  presented  with 
a  pair  of  white  kid  gloves.  And  there  were  sessions  after  sessions 
where  the  judges  going  around  their  circuits  got  white  kid  gloves. 
They  often  made  a  joke  about  it,  that  the  judges  should  set  up  a 
glove  shop.  And  that  is  an  absolute  fact.  There  may  be  little  petty 
larceny  cases  and  breach  of  promises  and  the  like,  and  I  think  that 
is  about  the  most  serious  thing.  We  occasionally  have  a  murder 
case,  but  very,  very  rarely. 

BRITISH  JUSTICE  PERVERTED  FOR  POLITICAL 
ENDS 

And  with  a  view  to  the  English  support  of  law  and  order  in  Ire- 
land, I  would  like  to  tell  of  the  last  murder  case  before  I  left  Ire- 
land. A  man  named  Quaid  in  County  Clare  in  Ireland,  a  man  with- 
out a  good  reputation,  a  blustering  sort  of  a  bully  who  took  Eng- 
land's part  in  the  war  and  advocated  recruiting,  and  did  his  very 
best  to  get  recruits  for  her.  He  was  a  man  with  a  very  hot  temper. 
And  sometime  about  a  year  and  a  half  ago, — he  was  a  publican, 
a  saloon  keeper — and  he  kicked  one  of  his  bar  attendants  to  death. 
She  was  a  woman.  Kicked  her  to  death  absolutely.  She  was  found 
dead  in  the  yard  the  next  morning.  That  man  deserved  to  be  hanged 
in  any  civilized  country.  His  counsel  made  a  very  long  speech  in 
his  behalf,  showing  that  he  was  a  very  loyal  subject,  that  he  had 
done  a  great  deal  of  recruiting  for  the  army  and  had  gotten  a  great 
many  recruits,  and  that  he  asked  for  a  light  sentence. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    This  was  in  the  British  courts? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  British  courts.  He  got  a  sentence  of  twelve 
months  as  a  first-class  misdemeanant,  which  meant  that  he  could 
have  his  friends  visit  him,  and  his  own  clothes,  and  all  the  other 
privileges  except  that  of  walking  out  when  he  liked.  So  he  got 
twelve  months,  when  men  who  were  found  with  revolvers  in  their 
pockets — which  it  is  the  right  of  a  free  man  to  carry  if  he  likes — 
get  from  two  to  five  years  penal  servitude.    He  got  twelve  months  in 


249 

the  most  comfortable  prison  they  had.  And  the  judge,  in  passing 
sentence,  said  they  would  make  him  as  comfortable  as  they  pos- 
sibly could.  Six  weeks  afterwards  the  man  was  released.  I  believe 
he  developed  a  headache  or  something  like  that.  That  is  the  way 
the  English  keep  law  and  order  in  our  country. 

Again,  three  policemen  were  caught  red-handed  in  Aghada,  not 
far  from  Cork,  in  the  act  of  stealing.  There  were  Americans  there, 
and  the  policemen  were  accused  and  found  guilty  of  stealing  their 
property.  About  two  months  after  that  the  Americans  cleared  out. 
They  got  a  sentence  of  nine  months  each,  I  believe.  But  three  days 
after  your  boys  cleared  out.  they  were  released.  That  is  keeping 
law  and  order. 

CRIMINALS  SENT  TO  IRELAND  AS   SPIES  AND 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Another  case  of  law  and  order  1  would  like  to  mention  is  that  of 
Hardy.  Perhaps  vou  have  heard  of  that  before.  It  was  in  all  the 
papers  of  England  and  Ireland.  It  was  the  case  of  a  spy.  That 
man  got  five  years  penal  servitude,  and  the  judge  who  sentenced  him 
said  his  record  was  the  very  worst  that  he  had  ever  come  across  in 
all  his  years  of  experience  on  the  bench.  About  five  months  after 
he  was  incarcerated,  he  was  released  and  sent  to  Ireland  to  see  how 

many  Sinn  Feiners  he  could  spy  upon.  He  was  sent  to  find  out  who 
the  Sinn  Fein  leaders  were,  how  they  made  their  remarkable  es- 
capes, and  if  they  could  not  get  hold  of  them.  He  visited  Mr.  Ar- 
thur Griffith  and  said  that  he  had  been  a  secret  service  man,  and  that 
his  sympathies  were  very  much  for  Ireland,  and  that  he  would  like 
to  help  them  if  he  could.  He  said  that  he  knew  all  the  movements 
of  the  enemy.  He  could  tell  them  where  Mr.  Hamar  Greenwood 
could  be  found  if  it  was  thought  advisable  to  have  him  visit  another 
planet,  and  he  knew  where  Mr.  Lloyd  George  could  be  found  if  they 
wanted  to  get  him.  Mr.  Griffith  listened  to  him  very  attentively  and 
asked  a  few  questions.  What  the  man  wanted  was  to  get  in  touch 
with  the  Sinn  Fein  council.  So  Mr.  Griffith  listened  to  him  appar- 
ently very  favorably,  and  said,  "Come  back  tomorrow  morning  and 
we  will  see  what  can  be  done  to  put  your  information  before  the 

council."  And  then  Mr.  Griffith  said  when  he  came  back,  "I  have  ar- 
ranged a  meeting  for  you,  and  you  be  here  tomorrow  afternoon  and 
we  will  see  what  can  be  done."  He  did  arrange  a  meeting,  not  of 
the  Sinn  Fein  Council,  but  of  some  newspaper  correspondents,  of 
some  American  and  French  and  Danish  and  other  correspondents. 
He  had  the  only  English  newspaper  man  in  Ireland  he  could  trust, 


250 

the  London  Daily  Herald  man.  And  of  course  he  had  some  Irish- 
men. And  they  sat  around  and  acted  like  a  Sinn  Fein  council. 
But  in  case  their  accents  might  betray  them,  it  was  agreed  that  only 
the  Irishmen  should  speak  at  all.  Hardy  was  asked  to  tell  his  story. 
He  said  that  on  a  certain  night  on  Kingstown  pier  Sir  Hamar  Green- 
wood would  be  crossing  to  England,  and  it  would  be  easy  to  get  him. 
He  was  quite  nervous  when  he  started,  but  as  he  got  along  he  got 
very  fluent.  When  he  got  through  Mr.  Griffith  got  up  and  said,  "Mr. 
Hardy,  you  think  you  have  been  speaking  to  a  Sinn  Fein  Council. 
You  have  been  speaking  to  a  number  of  foreign  press  correspondents. 
They  doubtless  know  already  who  sent  you  here.  And  now  I  want 
them  to  know  your  record."  And  he  gave  them  all  his  record,  and 
gave  him  until  nine  o'clock  in  the  evening  to  get  out  of  the  country. 
Hardy  begged  to  have  until  eight  o'clock  the  next  morning,  and  this 
was  granted;  but  he  was  advised  not  to  be  found  in  Ireland  after 
eight  o'clock  the  next  morning. 

This  is  the  way  the  English  keep  law  and  order  in  Ireland.  They 
take  criminals  out  of  the  jails  and  send  them  to  spy  on  the  Irish. 
And  they  take  them  out  of  the  jails  and  make  Black-and-Tans  of 
them.  There  is  a  friend  of  mine  who  was  temporarily  the  prison 
physician  at  Portland  prison,  and  one  day  he  met  a  man  on  the 
street  in  the  Black-and-Tan  uniform  and  stopped  him  and  said, 
"Where  did  I  meet  you?"  And  the  man  said,  "Oh,  doctor,  don't  you 
know?  I  was  at  Portland  prison  when  you  were  the  prison  physi- 
cian." That  is  the  way  we  get  English  law  and  order  in  Ireland. 
Most  of  the  criminals  are  sent  in  from  the  outside.  We  have  no 
trouble  except  where  the  British  forces  make  it. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  that  due  to  the  Irish  character,  or  is 
that  due  to  the  fact  that  they  are  banded  together  in  this  common 
cause  where  they  must  protect  one  another,  or  is  it  historically  true? 

A.  It  is  historically  true.  There  was  at  one  time  a  great  deal  of 
drunkenness  in  the  country,  but  the  Volunteer  movement  killed  that. 
The  people  are  intensely  serious  now.  The  work  of  our  courts  is 
really  very  light. 

BRITISH   ENDEAVOR   TO    SUPPRESS    REPUBLICAN 
COURTS 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Do  these  courts  have  to  meet  in  secret? 
A.     Now  they  do. 

Q.     How  long  were  they  in  the  open? 

A.  They  were  in  the  open  until  about,  I  think,  the  time  of  my 
brother's  arrest.    There  was  a  court  going  on  that  night.     They  are 


251 

open  now  to  those  who  want  to  go  into  them.  The  Irish  public 
knows  where  they  are. 

Q.     And  others  than  the  Irish  can  go  into  them? 

A.  Yes,  but  not  too  openly,  for  then  the  police  or  the  military 
would  come  in  and  break  things  up. 

Q.     But  they  are  going  on  now? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  But  the  British  authorities  have  put  them  down  and 
declared  them  illegal. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  The  British  Government  specifically  declared 
them  illegal.  They  were  afraid  they  were  getting  too  much  power, 
because  not  only  the  Republicans  used  them,  but  they  were  used  by 
the  Unionists  and  by  the  people  all  over  the  country. 

The  Witness:  I  have  been  asked  to  say  something  here  about  the 
burning  of  creameries  and  destruction  in  general;  the  circumstances 
under  which  the  Coercion  bill  went  into  effect,  as  well  as  the  exact 
circumstances  of  my  brother's  case;  and  the  shooting  of  police. 

I  would  like  to  say  as  quickly  as  possible  with  regard  to  the  shoot- 
ing of  policemen.  I  am  most  anxious  to  speak  to  the  Commission 
on  that  point.  I  have  been  told  ever  since  I  have  come  to  this  coun- 
try that  there  were  three  things  that  were  a  great  stumbling  block  to 
American  sympathy  in  the  Irish  situation.  The  first  was  that  it  was 
a  religious  fight.  The  second  was  that  the  Irish  were  murdering 
policemen.  And  the  third  was  the  difficulty  of  giving  Britain  guar- 
antees that  we  would  not  molest  her  or  let  our  coast  be  used  for  pur- 
poses of  military  aggression. 

RELIGIOUS    DIFFICULTY   CREATED    BY    ENGLAND 

With  regard  to  the  religious  difficulty,  there  isn't  any,  except  what 
England  creates.  The  religious  difficulty  of  today  is  created  exactly 
as  she  created  the  religious  difficulty  with  the  Earl  of  Charlemont  in 
1797  and  smashed  the  Irish  Volunteers.  She  keeps  alive  the  re- 
ligious issue  in  Belfast  for  her  own  purposes.  But  there  is  no  trou- 
ble among  the  people  otherwise. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  is  your  history  in  Cork?  Will  you 
kindly  state  if  there  has  ever  been  any  trouble  there  and  what  per 
cent,  of  the  people  are  Catholic? 

A.  I  suppose  that  the  per  cent,  of  the  population  that  is  non- 
Catholic  would  be  about  ten  per  cent.  The  Jews  have  their  syna- 
gogue, the  Nonconformists  have  their  church.  The  Church  of  Ire- 
land, which  has  been  disestablished  and  is  the  Episcopalian  Church, 
have  their  churches.  The  Protestants  of  Cork  all  have  their  churches 
just  like  the  Catholics,  only  they  are  not  so  numerous. 


252 

RELIGIOUS  TOLERANCE  OF  IRISH  PROVED  BY 
HISTORY  AND   EXPERIENCE 

There  never  has  been  any  persecution  of  the  Protestants  in  Cork. 
If  we  wanted  to  persecute  Protestants,  we  could  persecute  them  and 
make  it  too  hot  for  them  very  effectively.  But  the  very  biggest  busi- 
ness houses  in  the  city  are  owned  by  Protestants.  For  a  long  time 
they  employed  only  Protestants.  That  does  not  hold  any  longer 
now.  They  have  become  more  broad-minded  and  less  bigoted.  But 
the  only  bigotry  shown  in  Cork  has  been  shown  by  Protestants.  A 
business  house  needing  help  would  put  up  a  sign  in  the  window, 
"No  Irish  Catholic  need  apply."  Personally  I  would  feel  like  doing 
something  to  such  people,  but  the  population  of  Cork  did  not.  The 
Protestant  population  of  Cork,  if  asked  individually,  could  never 
prove  a  single  case  of  aggression  on  the  part  of  the  Catholic  popula- 
tion. If  you  went  through  the  whole  length  and  breadth  of  Ireland, 
you  could  not  find  a  case  where  the  Catholics  were  the  aggressors. 
If  they  are  attacked,  they  will  answer  back,  the  same  as  other  people 
would.  But  Ireland  has  been  remarkably  free  from  religious  perse- 
cutions. The  Irish  people  seem  to  be  unable  to  do  otherwise.  We 
are  the  only  nation  in  the  whole  wide  world  that  accepted  Chris- 
tianity without  murdering  the  first  apostles.  We  are  the  only  nation 
in  the  whole  world  that  does  not  show  in  its  history  some  early  per- 
secutions for  religious  heresies. 

Q.  Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  Do  you  have  a  Jewish  quarter  in  Cork, 
— a  Ghetto? 

A.  It  is  not  called  a  Ghetto.  It  has  the  curious  name  of  the 
Hibernian  Buildings. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  You  never  have  had  an  anti-Semitir 
movement  in  Ireland? 

A.  We  never  have  had  a  religious  persecution  movement  of  any 
kind  whatever. 

Q.     But  they  did  that  in  England. 

A.  Yes,  but  England  has  often  endeavored  to  have  persecu- 
tions in  Ireland  without  any  success  whatever.  Queen  Mary  in 
England  started  to  persecute  the  Protestants  in  England.  She  issued 
the  same  writ  for  the  Pale,  the  district  she  owned  in  Ireland.  The 
writ  was  obeyed  in  England.  It  was  not  obeyed  in  the  Irish  Pale. 
The  Catholic  Irish  citizens  refused  to  persecute  their  own  fellow 
citizens.  And  Protestant  citizens  by  the  hundreds  left  England  and 
went  to  Ireland  for  safety. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  But  there  never  has  been  any  persecution, 
even  of  the  Jews? 


253 


A.     No. 

Q.     But  there  is  a  large  Jewish  quarter  in  Dublin,  I  think. 

A.  Yes,  the  Jews  have  a  habit  of  creeping  in,  you  know.  But 
they  are  quite  harmless.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Jewish  population 
and  the  Jewish  synagogue  in  Cork  sent  us  one  of  the  nicest  expres- 
sions of  sympathy  on  the  death  of  my  brother  that  we  had  from 
anybody. 

We  will  not  persecute  anybody.  There  are  very  few  people  in 
Ireland,  even  the  people  who  shout  loudest,  who  believe  in  religious 
persecution.  The  Orange  section  in  the  north  of  Ireland  are  a  very 
ignorant  type  of  people.  They  are  more  like  the  lower  class  of 
England  than  they  are  like  the  Irish.  But  it  is  true  that  they  have 
the  idea  very  firmly  fixed  in  their  heads  that  the  pope  is  going  to 
come  over  to  Ireland  and  persecute  all  the  Protestants.  Of  course 
it  is  nonsense,  but  it  is  one  of  those  ideas  that  are  very  difficult  to 
get  out  of  their  heads.  When  the  English  army  of  occupation  i> 
withdrawn  that  will  disappear.  As  for  not  coming  under  the  Irish 
Parliament,  they  will  have  to.  We  are  not  going  to  have  anything 
like  Englishmen  in  our  country.  We  will  give  them  any  kind  of 
guarantees  they  like,  but  we  will  give  it  to  them  and  not  to  the 
English. 

So  much  for  the  religious  difficulty.  The  fact  that  there  will  not 
be  any  religious  persecution  under  the  Irish  Government  can  be 
proved  only  by  experience.     We  know  there  will  not  be. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  have  Catholic  constituencies 
elected  Protestants  to  represent  them  in  the  British  Parliament  and 
on  the  county  and  city  councils? 

A.     Very  many  of  them. 

Q.     Have  you  had  Protestant  mayors  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes,  the  third  last  was  a  Protestant. 

O.      Have  you  other  Protestant  officials? 

A.     Yes,  the  senior  alderman  is  a  Protestant. 

Q.     Who  is  he? 

A.     Alderman  Beamish. 

Q.     Is  he  a  Unionist? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  true  all  over  the  Catholic  part  of  Ireland  that  they  have 
elected  mayors  repeatedly  who  have  not  been  of  the  Catholic  faith? 

A.  It  is  true,  true  repeatedly,  that  a  Protestant  is  elected  if  he  is 
the  best  man.  But  they  would  not  elect  a  Unionist  at  all,  no  matter 
what  his  religion  was.  Thomas  Davis  said  in  one  of  his  poems: 
''There  art  two  great  parties  in  the  end.  You  are  one  with  us  if 
you  are  Ireland's  friend."     If  a  man  is  for  Ireland,  we  never  ask 


254 

him  his  religion.     If  he   is  a  Catholic  and  we  knew  that  he  was 
against  Ireland,  out  he  would  go.    It  is  Ireland  that  matters. 

ULSTER  RELIGIOUS  ISSUE  MAINTAINED  TO  PRE- 
VENT ORGANIZATION  OF  WORKERS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  To  come  back  to  the  industries. 
The  textile  industries  of  Ireland,  where  do  they  exist? 

A.  In  the  south  of  Ireland  and  Belfast  and  Balbriggan.  The 
hosiery  factory  at  Balbriggan  that  was  destroyed  lately  was  owned 
by  an  Englishman  and  a  Unionist.  But  of  course  the  injury  to  him 
was  unintended.  The  factory  was  burned  to  destroy  the  industry 
of  the  town. 

Q.     Did  that  give  employment  to  many  people? 

A.  Yes,  to  several  hundreds.  It  is  the  main  industry  of  that 
town. 

Q.     Are  you  acquainted  in  the  north? 

A.     Not  very  well. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  these  textile  workers  are  organized 
into  labor  unions? 

A.  They  are,  but  they  ignore  their  unions  when  the  time  comes 
to  have  a  fight  against  the  Catholics. 

Q.     In  the  north  of  Ireland  are  they  organized? 

A.  There  are  trade  unions  in  the  north  of  Ireland,  but  they  are 
spoiled  by  this  bigotry. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  that  perhaps  these  religious  differences 
may  be  more  economic  than  political ;  that  those  who  profit  by 
keeping  these  employees  divided,  by  keeping  them  unorganized, 
wherever  there  is  an  effort  made  to  improve  their  standard  of  living, 
they  simply  start  a  religious  war  among  them  and  make  organiza- 
tion impossible? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  largely  true.  But  the  main  interest  in  Ireland  is 
not  a  capitalistic  one.  It  is  a  political  one.  It  is  England  versus 
Ireland  all  the  time. 

Q.  Yes,  but  now  the  burning  down  of  that  mill  was  not  political. 
That  was  owned  by  a  British  capitalist. 

A.     Yes,  that  was  Mr.  Smith. 

Q.  Yes.  That  was  simply  to  harass  the  people  who  worked 
there? 

A.  Yes.  It  was  not  an  attack  on  the  individual  owner.  It  was 
simply  the  English  policy  of  starvation.  They  are  trying  to  throw 
the  people  out  of  work  and  prevent  them  getting  food  and  starve 
them  into  submission. 


255 

Q.  I  have  been  informed  that  labor  organizers  in  the  north  of 
Ireland  are  endeavoring  to  organize  the  Protestants.  In  previous 
years  they  have  endeavored  to  organize  both  Catholics  and  Protes- 
tants. This  time  they  said,  we  will  organize  the  Protestants  and  we 
can  get  the  Catholics  later.  Then  when  the  employers  heard  of  it 
they  told  the  Protestant  employees  that  it  was  a  Catholic  trick.  So 
the  regular  organizers  went  over  to  organize  the  Catholics,  and  then 
the  employers  told  the  Catholics  that  it  was  a  Protestant  trick.  Do 
vou  not  think  that  it  was  a  game  of  playing  the  parties  off  against 
each  other? 

A.     Yes,  but  the  fundamental  difference  is  political. 

Q.  Yes,  but  the  religious  differences  are  inspired  more  by  the 
economic  than  by  the  political  issues. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  quite  possible. 

IRELAND  WILLING  TO  GUARANTEE  PORTS  WILL 
NOT  BE  USED  BY  ENGLAND'S  FOES 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Now,  I  handed  you  a  list  of  questions. 

A.  Yes.  I  have  discussed  the  first.  That  one,  the  religious  diffi- 
culty, does  not  exist.  I  will  take  the  next  one,  the  guarantee  for 
England's  supremacy,  I  shall  say,  or  England's  safety. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    They  call  is  safety. 

The  Witness:  They  call  it  safety.  Our  President  took  lately  the 
first  paragraph  of  the  new  agreement  made  with  Cuba  by  the  United 
States.  It  is  a  guarantee  that  the  ports  of  Cuba  will  not  be  given 
to  any  foreign  power  or  used  in  any  way  that  would  injure  the 
United  States.  I  am  not  sure  of  the  wording  of  it.  But  the  point 
is  this:  that  we  are  perfectly  willing  to  give  a  promise  that  we  will 
not  let  any  other  foreign  power,  or  any  power,  use  our  ports  as  a 
war  base. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Against  Great  Britain? 

A.  Yes.  We  are  perfectly  willing  to  give  that  guarantee  and  to 
keep  it,  because  when  we  get  our  Republic,  we  are  not  going  to  go 
to  war  with  anybody.  Neither  will  we  allow  our  ports  to  be  used 
by  one  big  nation  that  wants  to  make  war  on  another  big  nation. 
England  says  that  is  not  enough.  If  it  is  not  enough,  she  will  have 
to  do  without.  She  is  not  going  to  keep  us  perpetually  in  slavery. 
England  will  have  to  be  satisfied  with  what  is  right  from  us.  She 
will  have  to  be  satisfied  with  justice  to  our  interests  as  well  as  hers. 
We  will  be  perfectly  willing  to  be  good  friends  and  forget  the  past, 
provided  she  clears  out  and  leaves  us  alone.  If,  as  Lloyd  George 
said  some  time  ago,  England  will  never  agree  to  an  Irish  Republic 


256 

until  England  is  beaten  to  the  ground,  well,  I  am  very  sorry,  because 
England  will  have  to  be  beaten  to  the  ground.  And  perhaps  Ma- 
taulay's  traveler,  who  stood  on  London  bridge  and  looked  on  the 
ruins  of  St.  Paul's,  is  already  on  the  horizon.  At  any  event,  we  are 
going  to  get  our  freedom.  England  cannot  keep  us  in  slavery. 
You  cannot  keep  in  slavery  a  people  every  individual  of  whom  is 
willing  to  die  for  the  principle  of  freedom.  So  much  for  the  third 
point. 

SHOOTING   OF  BRITISH   POLICE  WARRANTED   BY 
RULES  OF  WAR 

The  second  thing  I  was  asked  is  about  what  is  called  often  the 
murdering  of  policemen.  Here  it  is  called  the  shooting  of  police- 
men. I  will  simply  take  the  murders  of  policemen  by  denying  that 
there  ever  has  been  a  policeman  murdered  in  Ireland.  Now  I  will 
deal  with  the  shooting  of  policemen.  Will  you  please  start  out  with 
the  premise  that  Ireland  and  England  are  at  war.  One  of  the  in- 
stances about  the  shooting  of  policemen  was  the  ambush  of  seven- 
teen Black-and-Tans  last  week  at  a  place  not  far  from  Mallow,  when 
the  whole  seventeen  of  them  were  captured,  sixteen  of  them  killed, 
and  the  seventeenth  very  severely  wounded.  That  was  put  down  as 
a  very  horrible  murder.  Suppose  that  in  the  recent  war  an  Ameri- 
can scouting  party  went  out  on  a  Belgian  road  and  got  information 
that  three  or  four  lorries  of  German  soldiers  carrying  ammunition 
were  coming  along  the  road.  If  they  felt  strong  enough,  and  if 
they  were  very  plucky, — perhaps  even  if  they  did  not  feel  strong 
enough,  they  would  get  into  a  nice  little  ambush  and  they  would 
give  the  best  account  of  that  German  party  that  they  possibly  could. 
I  think  you  will  agree  with  me  that  that  is  a  statement  of  what 
would  happen.  Would  you  do  anything  but  laugh  at  any  man  that 
would  call  that  ambush  party  murder?  Of  course  it  is  not  a  mur- 
der. It  is  an  act  of  war.  The  Black-and-Tans  were  armed  to  the 
teeth.  I  should  like  to  tell  you  how  the  Black-and-Tans  go  around 
the  streets  of  our  cities  and  country  places.  Four  or  five  days  ago 
there  was  an  ambush  at  Bandon,  and  in  that  ambush  our  men  got 
the  worst  of  it. — four  or  five  of  our  men  were  killed.  You  will  not 
find  any  Irish  citizen  coming  before  this  Commission  and  claiming 
that  these  men  were  murdered.  Why?  Because  it  was  an  act  of 
war.  It  was  the  shooting  of  one  set  of  soldiers  by  another  set  of 
soldiers.  I  think  there  is  an  incident  in  American  history  known  as 
the  Boston  Massacre.  I  am  not  quite  conversant  with  American  his- 
tory.    I  know  a  fair  share  of  it,  but  I  feel  diffident  about  talking 


257 

American  history  in  your  presence.  But  I  think  that  in  that  Boston 
Massacre  two  or  three  or  perhaps  more  British  officers  were  shot, 
and  perhaps  several  civilians.  I  think  that  the  shooting  of  those 
officers  was  described  as  murder,  and  the  shooting  of  the  civilians 
was  described  as  the  shooting  of  rascally  rebels.  Do  you  agree  that 
the  shooting  of  those  officers  was  murder?  You  may  do  so  if  you 
wish.  I  do  not.  I  do  not  agree  that  the  shooting  of  any  of  the 
armed  forces  of  the  British  Crown  while  they  are  armed  is  murder. 
It  is  not.  I  will  tell  you  this:  every  single  individual  in  the  enemy's 
uniform  who  passes  through  the  streets  and  roads  of  our  country  by 
that  act  commits  an  act  which  by  the  laws  of  international  warfare 
renders  him  worthy  of  death.  Any  German  soldier  who  went  out  in 
the  streets  of  Belgium  during  the  late  war  was  shot  if  his  enemy 
could  shoot  him.  I  think  that  a  little  clear  thinking  on  these  points 
would  be  advisable  before  we  are  accused  of  wholesale  murder. 

NO  UNARMED  POLICEMAN  SHOT  UNLESS  A 
PROVED  SPY 

I  have  also  been  told  that  individual  policemen  who  were  un- 
armed have  been  shot.  That  is  also  true.  Now  I  will  tell  you  who 
those  individual  policemen  are.  I  was  asked  a  little  while  ago  about 
the  police  in  Ireland.  The  police  in  any  civilized  country  are  a 
civil  force  under  the  control  of  the  civil  authorities,  and  that  civil 
force  deals  with  offences  against  the  civil  law  only.  The  police  in 
Ireland  have  always  been  under  the  authority  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment. They  have  not  always  carried  arms,  because  there  have  been 
times  when  we  were  not  in  a  state  of  war.  But  they  carry  arms  at 
present,  and  therefore  they  are  among  the  armed  forces  of  the 
Crown.  Among  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  was  a  division  known 
as  the  G  Division.  Their  work  was  purely  detective  work.  The 
people  they  were  sent  to  spy  upon  were  our  fellow  citizens.  And 
that  went  on  during  every  political  agitation  in  Ireland.  During  the 
present  war,  since  1916 — since  1914,  in  fact — the  police  in  that  G 
Division  were  very  active.  I  am  sorry  to  have  to  acknowledge  that 
they  were  Irishmen.  That  only  makes  them  greater  sinners.  No 
one  is  held  in  greater  horror  and  contempt  than  Judas,  and  every 
one  of  those  men  was  a  Judas  because  he  betrayed  his  own.  In  that 
G  Division  were  men  who  were  expert  spies,  because  they  were 
people  that  mixed  freely  with  the  Irish  people  and  picked  up  infor- 
mation from  girls  whom  they  met  and  other  people,  and  they  gave 
that  information  to  the  British  Government,  and  that  information 
led  very  often  to  the  arrest  and  imprisonment  of  their  fellow  coun- 


258 

trymen.  Therefore  they  were  spies.  In  the  recent  times  in  Ireland, 
when  the  times  got  very  hot,  these  spies  have  done  very  good  work 
for  the  English  Government  in  Ireland.  One  of  our  leaders  who  was 
executed  in  1916  was  executed  through  one  of  those  spies,  who  has 
himself  been  shot  since.  During  Easter  Week  some  of  the  Volun- 
teers were  anxious  to  shoot  down  every  policeman,  every  police  spy, 
that  is — every  policeman  of  the  G  Division;  but  the  leaders,  Pearse 
and  MacDermott,  said,  "No,  this  is  a  clean  fight,  and  we  will  deal 
with  them  afterwards."  There  was  one  detective  who  was  very 
active  in  tracking  down  our  men.  His  life  was  saved  by  John  Mac- 
Dermott, one  of  the  signatories  of  the  Irish  Declaration  of  Inde- 
pendence. John  MacDermott  was  a  very  young  man,  and  he  was 
very  lame.  As  a  soldier  he  would  be  considered  as  among  the  unfit 
in  any  army  in  the  world.  But  he  was  one  of  the  greatest  workers 
we  had.  Because  of  his  lameness  the  military  officers  who  captured 
the  people  after  Easter  Week  came  to  the  conclusion  that  he  could 
not  be  one  of  the  leaders,  and  so  he  was  thrown  into  the  barracks 
along  with  the  rank  and  file,  and  he  was  put  in  the  batch  to  be  sent 
to  the  Wakefield  prison  in  England.  They  were  paraded  in  the 
Richmond  barrack  yards  before  leaving  Dublin,  and  this  particular 
detective  was  sent  up  and  down  the  ranks  to  see  if  there  was  any 
man  there  who  ought  to  get  penal  servitude  rather  than  deportation. 
And  in  going  up  and  down  the  ranks  he  saw  John  MacDermott,  and 
he  pointed  him  out  to  the  British  authorities  as  one  of  the  seven 
signatories  of  the  Irish  Declaration  of  Independence.  And  John 
MacDermott  was  taken  out  and  shot  a  few  days  afterwards. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Was  this  the  man  whose  life  he  had  saved? 

A.  This  was  the  v.ery  man  whose  life  he  saved.  And  that  man 
has  subsequently  been  shot,  and  shooting  was  too  gentle  a  dealth 
for  such  a  wretch. 

No  unarmed  policeman  has  been  shot  in  Ireland  unless  he  has 
been  proved  a  spy.  And  he  has  been  proved  a  spy  on  good  evidence. 
Our  Irish  Secret  Service,  like  other  divisions  of  the  Irish  Govern- 
ment, is  rather  efficient.  We  have  captured  the  official  and  private 
correspondence  of  Lord  French,  and  we  have  sent  back  his  personal 
correspondence  marked  "Censored  by  the  I.  R.  A."  His  official  cor- 
respondence he  did  not  get  back.  The  official  correspondence  we 
have  captured  from  time  to  time  has  been  conclusive  evidence  that 
there  are  spies  at  work  among  us.  One  morning  a  policeman  com- 
ing along  from  the  general  postoffice  with  a  mail  bag  was  stopped 
on  the  street  by  two  Volunteers  and  relieved  of  his  mail  bag.  It  is 
not  always  done  as  openly  as  that  on  the  streets  at  eight  o'clock  in 
the  morning.     He  was  sent  home  without  his  mail  bag.     That  mail 


259 


bag  contained  conclusive  evidence  against  a  man  who  had  been  sus- 
pected as  a  spy  for  a  long  time.  And  he  paid  the  penalty  that  all 
spies  pay. 

You  may  hold  up  your  hands  in  horror  and  say  we  are  not  justi- 
fied in  shooting  spies.  They  are  people  that  I  have  a  great  deal  of 
contempt  for.  but  I  have  a  great  deal  of  contempt  for  many  people 
I  would  not  shoot.  But  I  ask  you  this:  what  right  have  you  or  any 
other  nation  to  object  to  our  shooting  spies  unless  you  object  to  the 
shooting  of  spies  for  yourself  and  your  allies?  It  has  been  sug- 
gested that  these  men  should  have  an  open  trial.  There  were  a  good 
many  spies  shot  in  England  at  the  beginning  of  the  war.  I  believe 
that  the  question  was  asked  in  the  House  of  Commons  why  they 
were  not  given  an  open  trial.  And  the  answer  was  that  it  would  be 
giving  aid  and  information  to  the  enemy.  If  England  is  allowed  to 
shoot  her  spies  without  an  open  trial,  why  should  we  not  too?  I 
do  not  know  whether  America  had  any  spies  to  shoot  during  the 
recent  war. 

Chairman   Howe:    Not  in  this  war. 

The  Witness:  But  in  any  war  where  you  found  spies  to  be  shot, 
you  shot  them.  Very  well.  But  spies  in  Ireland  have  only  been 
shot  on  official  evidence,  and  the  official  evidence  was  very  largely 
obtained  from  themselves,  from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Have  any  Irish  Republican  officers  who  have 
been  spies  of  the  government  been  shot  by  the  British? 

A.  I  do  not  really  know  whether  we  have  any  spies  like  that. 
When  I  say  that  we  have  a  secret  service  force,  I  mean  those  who 
capture  the  mails  and  get  information  like  that. 

Q.  But  you  seek  the  same  right  for  the  officers  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publican Army  to  shoot  British  spies  as  the  British  exercise  in  shoot- 
ing Irish  secret  service  men? 

A.  Yes,  I  ask  only  this,  that  when  England  calls  the  shooting  of 
the  spies  she  captures  murder,  she  can  begin  to  call  the  shooting  of 
the  spies  that  she  employs  murder.  You  must  begin  to  use  the 
proper  word.  The  shooting  of  spies  is  not  murder.  The  only  mur- 
ders we  have  had  in  Cork  in  many,  many  years — I  am  not  a  young 
woman  any  more — but  in  all  my  life  I  can  only  remember  two  mur- 
ders in  Cork,  and  I  do  not  think  there  would  be  more  than  four  or 
five  in  Ireland.  And  the  murder  that  I  told  you  of,  that  man  who 
kicked  his  barmaid  to  death,  was  sentenced  by  the  British  Govern- 
ment to  the  lightest  sentence  that  he  could  possibly  get,  and  let  out 
after  six  weeks. 


260 

SPIES  NOT  SHOT  UNTIL  AFTER  WARNING 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  want  to  ask  a 
few  questions  to  get  this  straight.  You  say  that  policemen  are  not 
shot  indiscriminately,  but  that  only  when  they  are  spies  and  have 
done  work  worthy  of  death? — that  is,  unarmed  policemen? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  also  say  that  some  are  ambushed  and  shot  that  way? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  There  is  also  a  third  case  that  happened  when  you  were  on 
the  water,  perhaps.  Something  like  fourteen  policemen  were  shot 
at  different  times  and  places,  some  on  duty  and  some  off;  some  of 
them  in  their  homes. 

A.     Fourteen  of  them?     Those  were  in  Fermoy,  perhaps? 

Commissioner  Thomas:    No,  in  Dublin. 

The  Witness :  Oh,  those  men  were  spies.  They  were  English  secret 
service  men  who  had  the  clews  of  the  machinery  of  our  government. 
I  believe  they  were  the  head  men  there,  who  were  doing  untold  dam- 
age. I  do  not  know  the  details.  But  I  know  this:  if  any  of  those 
men  were  shot  by  the  Irish  Republican  Army,  they  were  shot  justly 
and  after  warning. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    What  do  you  mean  by  warning? 

A.     Oh,  they  have  been  told  that  they  would  be  shot. 

Q.  You  mean  that  they  were  told  they  would  be  shot  if  they  did 
not  leave  the  country? 

A.     Yes,  they  had  to  leave  the  country. 

Q.     If  they  left  the  country  they  would  not  be  shot? 

A.  Yes,  if  they  left  the  country  they  would  be  safe.  We  would 
have  no  further  objection.     They  would  not  be  shot. 

ENGLAND   VIOLATES   RULES   OF  WAR   IN   TREAT- 
ING IRISH  PRISONERS  AS  CRIMINALS 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  said  that  one  object  of  the 
British  Government  was  to  drive  the  Irish  people  into  open  war- 
fare ? 

A.     Yes.     It  is  guerilla  warfare  now. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  England  would  then  be 
justified  in  arresting  the  vice-president  of  the  Irish  Republic  as  an 
act  of  war? 

A.     She  has  done  it. 

Q.  Yes,  but  you  say  that  she  is  justified  in  doing  it,  though,  as 
an  act  of  war? 


A. 

Yes, 

but   1 

Si 

iv  that 

she 

aggres 

>sion 

whatev< 

er 

in  Ire 

land. 

Q- 

Yes, 

1ml  it 

is 

accord 

ing  l 

261 

is  not   justified   in  doing  any  act  of 

»  the  code  of  war.  tin-  ethics  of  war. 
if  yon  could  use  that  word,  that  Arthur  Griffith  is  in  prison  at  this 
time. 

A.  Yes.  with  one  proviso  that  covers  my  brother's  case  at  the 
same  time.  Why?  Because  when  two  countries  are  at  war,  and 
when  the  officers  of  one  country  are  captured  by  another,  they  should 
be  given  the  status  of  prisoners  of  war.  If  my  brother  had  been 
given  the  status  of  a  prisoner  of  war,  he  would  never  have  gone  on 
hunger  strike.  If  Arthur  Griffith  is  given  the  treatment  of  a  prisoner 
of  war.  well  and  good.  But  what  we  object  to  and  what  we  fight 
against  and  what  my  brother  died  to  protest  against  is  the  assump- 
tion of  England  that  she  is  entitled  to  arrest  us  and  drag  us  off  to 
prison  or  execute  us  because  she  owns  our  country. 

Q.  I  understand.  But  according  to  the  code  of  war,  military 
search  and  seizure  is  not  the  thing  that  it  is  under  the  code  of  peace. 
Now,  military  search  and  seizure,  you  would  say,  is  not  any  special 
disability  in  Ireland  at  the  present  time? 

A.     \es,  granted  the  treatment  of  prisoners  of  war. 
Q.     In  other  words,  granting  your  point  of  view  that  England  has 
no  right  to  be  in  a  state  of  war  with  you? 

A.  We  do  not  complain  against  search  and  seizure,  against  ar- 
rest, against  anything  except  vindictive  reprisals  against  the  civilian 
population;  providing  only  that  the  people  so  arrested  are  treated 
as  prisoners  of  war  and  not  as  common  criminals. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Accepting  that  you  are  in  a  state  of  war  with 
England? 

A.     Accepting  that  we  are  in  a  state  of  war. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  In  other  words,  there  is  a  distinction 
to  be  drawn  against  the  burning  of  factories,  as  at  Balbriggan,  and 
the  burning  of  creameries  and  the  destruction  of  civilian  homes, 
which  is  wrong,  even  under  conditions  of  war,  because  it  is  the  de- 
struction of  civilian  property.  But  search  and  seizure  and  impris- 
onment you  do  not  object  to? 

A.  Right,  exactly,  if  they  give  us  the  status  of  prisoners  of  war. 
But  they  are  not  doing  that.  But  as  long  as  England  holds  that  she- 
is  arresting  us  as  criminals  or  as  rebels,  as  she  once  said,  and  gives 
us  the  treatment  of  criminals  rather  than  prisoners  of  war,  she  is 
not  justified. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  claim  that  the  shooting  of  these  men 
who  are  spies  would  be  justified  the  same  as  England  is  in  shooting 
spies? 


262 

A.     Certainly. 

Q.  But  it  is  quite  a  different  thing  for  England  to  shoot  at  ran- 
dom at  a  crowd  of  civilians? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  Now  here  is  the  thing  we  have  to  contend 
with  on  the  country  roads. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Wait  a  minute.  Is  that  taking  up  another 
sub  j  ect  ? 

A.     You  want  to  stop  now,  Mr.  Howe? 

Chairman  Howe:  It  is  now  ten  minutes  to  six,  and  perhaps  we 
should  stop  now  before  you  branch  out  into  any  new  subject. 

POLICEMEN  SHOT  BY  BLACK-AND-TANS  TO 
THROW  ODIUM  ON  SINN  FEIN 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Have  you  finished  with  the  shooting  of 
policemen? 

A.  No,  there  is  one  thing  more.  Policemen  have  been  shot 
either  accidentally  or  on  purpose  by  other  policemen.  There  is  one 
case  that  happened  lately,  about  which  I  can  give  you  no  absolute 
proof.  It  is  the  case  of  the  shooting  of  an  old  sergeant,  Sergeant 
O'Donovan  or  O'Donoghue.  It  happened  about  the  time  of  my 
brother's  death,  between  that  time  and  the  time  I  left  home.  I  know 
that  that  was  murder,  and  was  not  done  by  any  of  our  people.  He 
was  an  inoffensive  old  man  and  within  a  few  months  of  his  pension 
time.  He  had  not  committed  a  single  act  of  aggression  against  our 
people.  He  was  not  acting  as  a  spy.  He  was  doing  no  harm  to  any- 
body, and  not  a  single  Irish  Volunteer  would  have  shot  him.  And 
this  man  was  to  have  his  pension  and  retire  from  the  force  in  a  very 
short  time.  He  had  not  taken  any  part  in  the  work  of  the  Black- 
and-Tans.  And  he  was  found  shot.  The  Black-and-Tans  have  shot 
several  men  like  that  who  would  not  act  as  spies,  in  the  hope  of 
throwing  further  odium  on  Sinn  Fein,  as  they  call  it. 

PUNISHMENT    INFLICTED    ON    POLICEMEN    WHO 
RESIGN 

Also  they  have  taken  out  and  flogged  and  shot  policemen  who 
have  resigned  from  the  force,  and  they  have  done  that  in  uniform. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    That  is,  before  the  expiration  of  their  term? 

A.  Before  the  expiration  of  their  term.  They  have  shot  them  in 
uniform,  and  all  these  shootings  have  been  put  down  as  to  the  Irish 
Republican  Government.  We  do  not  accept  the  responsibility,  be- 
cause these  are  murders  committed  by  these  men  for  the  purpose  of 
throwing  odium  on  Sinn  Fein. 


263 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Are  any  of  these  Irish  state  police- 
men or  Irish  Constabulary  resigning?     If  so,  why  do  they  resign? 

A.  They  are  resigning  because  they  will  not  take  any  part  in 
what  is  going  on  now  in  Ireland. 

Q.     After  they  resigned,  did  anything  happen  to  them? 

A.     Not  by  our  own  people. 

Q.  But  did  any  of  them  lose  their  lives?  Have  you  any  per- 
sonal knowledge  of  such  cases? 

A.  The  information  I  have  of  such  cases  I  got  from  the  news- 
papers. 

Q.  But  you  have  read  in  the  newspapers  that  many  of  them  have 
been  shot  after  they  have  resigned? 

A.     Yes,  I  have.    After  they  had  resigned. 

Q.  But  it  seems  to  me  that  a  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  man  who 
had  resigned  would  have  rather  endeared  himself  to  the  people  of 
the  Irish  Republic. 

A.  Yes,  they  would.  And  furthermore,  I  can  tell  you  that  the 
Irish  Government  would  see  that  they  do  not  suffer  from  their  resig- 
nations. 

Q.     But  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  notice  it? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  it.  While  my  brother  was  in  Brixton  Prison,  I 
read  in  the  paper  that  about  four  hundred  R.  I.  C.'s  sent  in  a  notice 
to  the  Government  warning  the  Government  that  if  he  were  released, 
they  would  resign  in  a  body.  The  very  instant  that  I  saw  that.  I 
knew  for  one  that  it  was  a  lie.  There  are  not  four  hundred  of  the 
old  R.  I.  C.  men  left,  nor  four  dozen,  who  would  say  such  a  thing. 
The  four  hundred,  if  there  were  four  hundred,  I  knew  were  the 
English  recruits  to  the  R.  I.  C,  commonly  known  as  Black-and- 
Tans.  It  sounded  very  big  in  the  English  papers  that  four  hundred 
R.  I.  C.'s  threatened  to  resign  if  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  was  re- 
leased, because  their  lives  would  not  be  safe  if  he  lived.  That,  of 
course,  was  another  piece  of  lying  propaganda.  I  said  that  on  the 
instant  I  saw  it,  because  I  did  not  believe  they  would  do  it.  The 
very  next  day  the  chief  of  the  R.  I.  C.  sent  a  letter  to  the  paper 
denying  that  the  R.  I.  C.  had  taken  any  such  action,  and  very  vigor- 
ously protesting  that  such  a  statement  should  be  made.  There  are 
not  four  hundred  or  four  dozen  of  the  old  R.  I.  C.  who  are  left,  but 
there  are  any  number  of  Black-and-Tans  who  might  say  that  they 
protested  against  his  release.1 


1  This  fictitious  protest  against  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney's  release  con- 
tained the  imputation  that  he  was  one  of  the  chief  instigators  of  the 
shooting  of  policemen,  and  hence  the  lives  of  policemen  would  not  be 
safe  if  he  were  released. 


264 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  say  that  the  taking  of  the  lives 
of  these  policemen,  of  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  Blaek-and-Tans,  was  done 
in  punishment  for  indiscriminate  murders.  But  has  the  murder  of 
resigned  officers  caused  reprisals? 

The  Witness:    Would  you  mind  repeating  the  question? 

Q.  You  said  that  some  policemen  when  they  resigned  from  the 
R.  I.  C.  had  been  shot  by  the  Black-and-Tans.  Do  you  claim  that 
any  such  killings  have  been  given  as  an  excuse  for  the  shooting  up 
of  communities  by  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     By  the  Black-and-Tans? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.     I  could  not  say  about  that. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Might  I  say  that  I  told  the  Chairman  some  time 
ago  that  an  effort  would  be  made  to  locate  a  number  of  members 
of  the  R.  I.  C.  that  have  resigned  and  would  be  available  as  wit- 
nesses. We  will  give  their  names  to  the  secretary  this  evening. 
And  they  can  give  the  whole  story  of  the  R.  I.  C.1 

Chairman  Howe:  We  will  now  adjourn.  The  meeting  will  be 
held  here  in  this  room  at  nine-thirty  tomorrow  morning. 

Adjournment  5:53  P.  M. 


1  See    testimony    of     Ex-Policemen     Crowley,     Tangney,     Caddan,    and 
Galvin. 


SECOND  HEARINGS  ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Before  the 
AMERICAN    COMMISSION    OF    INQUIRY    ON    CON- 
DITIONS  IN  IRELAND 


Session  Two 


Jane  Addams 
James  H.  Maurer 
Oliver  P.  Newman 
George  W.  Norris 
Norman  Thomas 
David  I.  Walsh 

L.   HOLLINGSWORTH    WOOD 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 


COMMISSIONERS 


Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washington, 
D.  C,  Thursday,  December  9,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  9:50  A.  M. 
Chairman  Howe:    Mrs.  MacSwiney  will  take  the  stand. 


TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  MURIEL  MACSWINEY 


Q- 

name 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 


Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh    (of  counsel)  :    Will  you  please  state  youi 

Mrs.  MacSwiney  ? 

Muriel  MacSwiney. 

And  where  do  you  reside? 

In  Cork. 

\on  are  the  widow  of  Terence  MacSwiney? 

Yes,  I  am. 

And  he  died  on  what  day? 

■I  am  not  sure  of  the  exact  date. 


I  am  not  sure, 
And  where? 

In  Brixton  prison,  in  London. 

And  at  the  time  of  your  husband's  arrest,  what  was  your  hus- 
band's business  or  profession? 

A.     He  was  the  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city  of  Cork. 


265 


266 

Q.     And  did  he  have  any  other  official  connection? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  an  officer  in  the  Irish  Republican  Army. 

Q.  Now,  would  you  be  good  enough  to  begin,  I  might  suggest, 
to  tell  the  Commission  in  your  own  thoughts  about  his  connection 
with  the  Republican  movement  in  Ireland?  And  just  state  to  the 
Commission  your  observations  of  the  movement  down  to  your  mar- 
riage with  your  husband  and  down  to  the  time  of  his  death.  I  will 
let  you  start  with  your  own  story.     You  were  born  where? 

A.     I  was  born  in  Cork. 


And  what  was  the  name  of  your  parents? 

My  father's  name  was  Nicholas  Murphy. 

Of  Cork? 

Yes,  of  Cork.     And  Mary  Purcell  was  my  mother's  name. 

And  your  father  is  dead? 

Yes,  he  died  when  I  was  sixteen. 

And  you  have  brothers  and  sisters? 

Yes,  I  have. 

How  many? 

Three  sisters  and  two  brothers. 

What  was  the  date  of  your  marriage  with  Mr.  MacSwiney? 

June  9,  1917. 


THE  MAKING  OF  A  REPUBLICAN   CONVERT 

Q.  You  can  go  ahead  now  and  state  your  own  position  in  this 
matter.  When,  if  at  any  time,  did  you  become  interested  in  the 
cause  of  Irish  independence,  and  what  actuated  you? 

A.  Well,  I  think  what  actuated  me  was  that  all  my  life,  even 
when  I  was  quite  a  baby,  I  never  could  understand  why  there  should 
be  poor  people  and  rich  people.  You  know  there  is  a  great  deal  of 
poverty  in  Ireland,  especially  in  Cork.  You  cannot  help  noticing 
the  many  poor  children  with  no  shoes  and  stockings  and  the  like. 
I  noticed  that  when  a  baby.  I  could  not  understand  why  it  should 
be.  However,  I  do  not  think  it  is  right  to  give  people  things  only  in 
charity.  There  should  be  no  need  of  that.  There's  plenty  in  Ire- 
land for  everybody  to  have  enough.  As  I  grew  older  I  saw  that 
things  could  not  be  set  right  except  by  government. 

Q.     Was  this  prior  to  your  marriage? 

A.  0  yes,  that  was  when  I  was  quite  a  child.  And  I  saw  that 
while  England  was  there  we  could  do  nothing,  because  she  destroyed 
our  business  and  kept  us  poor. 

Q.     What  was  the  business  of  your  father? 

A.     He  had  a  big  distillery. 


267 

Q.     Briefly  stated,  he  was  a  man  in  comfortable  circumstances? 

A.     0  yes.  very. 

Q.  You  say  as  a  child  you  were  moved  by  the  poverty  that  ex- 
isted in  your  country,  and  the  reasons  for  it,  and  why  it  should 
be  so? 

A.     Yes.  I  was. 

Q.     Now.  you  may  proceed,  then. 

A.  As  I  got  older,  as  I  have  told  you,  I  saw  that  England  was 
responsible  for  all  that,  and  if  we  had  our  own  government  we 
could  do  something;  and  until  we  had  our  own  government  we  could 
do  nothing.  I  saw  that,  and  I  picked  up  other  things,  and  I  learned 
that  England  was  only  there  as  a  thief,  and  had  no  right  to  be  there 
at  all. 

Q.     Where  were  you  educated,  Mrs.  MacSwiney? 

A.  I  was  educated  at  home  until  I  was  fifteen,  and  then  I  was 
sent  to  England  for  two  years. 

Q.     To  what  school? 

A.  To  Saint  Leonard's  Convent  of  the  Holy  Child  at  Hastings. 
They  have  a  great  many  convents  in  America,  by  the  way;  and 
many  in  England. 

Q.     And  where  was  your  education  finished? 

A.     There,  at  Hastings,  in  the  south  of  England. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  personal  interest  in  the  Irish  Republican 
movement  after  your  graduation? 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  You  see,  my  parents  are  not  quite  like  myself. 
I  think  I  am  rather  characteristic  of  a  certain  section  in  Ireland. 
The  younger  people  of  Ireland  have  been  thinking  in  a  way  that 
some  of  the  older  ones  have  not.  There  some  years  ago  the  Union- 
ists did  not  wish  an  Irish  Republic.  They  wished  to  belong  to  Eng- 
land. They  were  well  off  and  quite  comfortable  and  thought  only 
of  themselves.  That  is  dying  out  now.  The  younger  members  of 
such  families  are  Republican.  On  account  of  that,  I  did  not  get  the 
opportunity  to  meet  Republicans  when  I  was  a  child.  That  was 
why  I  was  sent  to  school  to  England.  I  am  only  characteristic  of  a 
great  many  who  are  brought  up  shut  up  at  home.  And  still  the 
Irish  spirit  comes  out  of  them  in  spite  of  everything.  So  until  I 
was  about  twenty-two  I  did  not  get  the  opportunity  to  do  very  much. 

Q.     What  is  your  age  now? 

A.     I  am  twenty-eight. 

Q.     When  did  you  first  meet  Terence  MacSwiney? 

A.     I  met  him  in  1915,  about  Christmas. 

Q.  Were  you  interested  in  the  Republican  movement  before 
then? 


268 

A.     0  yes,  I  was,  some  time  before  then. 

Q.  You  might  state  what  your  activities  have  been  prior  to  that 
time. 

A.  My  thought  has  long  been  that  we  should  have  an  Irish  Re- 
public, and  that  England  should  go  from  Ireland. 

Q.     Did  you  belong  to  any  organization  up  to  that  time? 

A.     I  did  not,  up  to  that  time.     I  had  spoken  to  people,  of  course. 

Q.  But  you  had  not  been  connected  with  any  Republican  organ- 
ization? 

A.  No,  on  account  of  my  family.  I  was  living  at  home,  of 
course. 

COURTSHIP   INTERRUPTED   BY   POLITICAL 
IMPRISONMENTS 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  proceed  and  tell  about  your  husband,  and 
your  marriage,  and  tell  the  whole  story  down  to  the  present  time. 
I  am  sure  it  would  interest  the  Commission  to  hear  your  story  from 
the  very  first. 

A.  Well,  I  met  my  husband  at  the  house  of  mutual  friends,  about 
Christmas,  1915.  And,  well,  I  did  not  really  get  to  know  him  very 
intimately  at  that  time.  Some  time  after  that  I  met  him  a  few 
times. 

Q.     You  might  tell  what  his  status  was  at  that  time. 

A.  He  was  a  commandant  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army  at  that 
time.    , 

Q.     He  was  a  commandant? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  south  of  Ireland.  Of  course,  my  husband  has 
been  in  all  the  movements  ever  since  he  was  a  boy;  because  of 
course,  as  his  sister  has  told  you,  theirs  is  a  very  old  family  around 
Cork.  She  can  tell  you  about  that  better  than  I  can,  because  she 
knew  him  before  I  did.  I  met  him,  as  I  said,  about  Christmas. 
And  he  was  arrested  about  a  month  after  Christmas. 

Q.     Upon  what  charge,  if  any? 

A.  The  charge  of  making  a  speech.  But  he  was  kept  without 
trial  for  a  whole  month.  He  was  never  tried  at  all.  He  had  to  be 
released  in  the  end. 

Q.     Where  was  he  confined? 

A.     In  Cork  prison.     And  he  was  quite  ill  then. 

Q.     What  was  the  date? 

A.     My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  the  date. 

Q.     In  1916? 

A.     Yes,  1916. 


269 

Q.     \^  as  it  alter  the  insurrection  or  before? 

A.  0  before.  Well,  when  we  got  the  news  in  Cork  of  the  insur- 
rection in  1916,  we  heard  there  was  something  up  in  Dublin.  And 
1  went  into  town  to  try  to  find  out  what  had  happened.  I  heard  that 
my  husband  was  up  at  the  Volunteer  Hall,  the  headquarters  of  the 
Republican  army  in  Cork.  There  was  danger  in  Cork  then.  He 
had  been  sleeping  there  because  they  thought  it  was  safer  for  him. 
It  was  not  well  for  him  to  be  alone.  He  might  be  shot  or  arrested. 
He  was  up  at  the  hall  all  the  week.  I  had  a  chance  to  see  him  and 
get  the  news  of  what  was  happening  in  Dublin  and  in  Cork.  My 
husband  was  arrested  after  that. 

Q.     What  date  was  that? 

A.     I   cannot  give  the  date  exactlv.      It   was   after   Easter  Week. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  your  marriage? 

A.     The  ninth   of  June.   1917. 

Q.     And  I  believe  you  have  one  child? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  the  name  of  your  child? 

A.     Maura. 

Q.     And  when  was  Maura  born? 

A.     She  was  born  on  the  twenty-third  of  June,  1918. 

Q.     Had  your  husband  been  arrested  before  you  were   married? 

A.     Yes.  I  told  you  he  had.     Easter  Week,  1916. 

Q.     And  he  was  arrested  after  that, — after  your  marriage? 

A.  0  yes,  like  all  men  in  Ireland,  whether  they  had  fought  or 
not.     They  were  all  arrested,  after  Easter  Week. 

Q.      And  when  was  he  first  arrested? 

A.      Early  in  1916.  and  then  after  Easter. 

Q.     And  how  long  was  he  confined? 

A.     He  was  confined  until  after  Christma>. 

Q.     And  where  was  he  sent? 

A.  First  of  all.  he  was  sent  to  Dublin  to  Richmond  barracks, 
and  he  was  then  deported  to  Wakefield  prison  in  England. 

Q.     And  he  got  out  under  the  general  amnesty? 

A.     Yes,  with  the  other  prisoners  at  Christmas. 

Q.  During  all  that  time  there  was  no  formal  charge  lodged 
against  him? 

A.     0  no,  none  of  those  were  charged. 

Q.     They  just  kept  him  in   jail  until  Christmas  time? 

A.     They  did,  for  nearly  a  year. 

Q.     From  that  time  what  was  the  course  of  your  husband? 


270 

INHUMAN  TREATMENT  OF  IRISH  POLITICAL 
PRISONERS 

A.  I  visited  him  in  Richmond  barracks,  I  should  say.  And  then 
I  was  sent  over  by  our  own  people  to  England  to  do  something  for 
the  men  who  were  in  the  prisons  there.  Our  men  were  in  a  terrible 
condition  at  that  time.  In  the  beginning  none  of  their  folks  were 
allowed  to  see  them.  When  I  went  over  first,  I  went  to  Wandsworth 
prison  in  London,  and  then  I  went  to  Wakefield,  where  my  husband 
was,  because  I  was  supposed' to  look  after  the  Cork  men,  and  my 
husband  and  they  were  in  Wakefield. 

Q.     How  many  were  confined? 

A.  0  hundreds,  if  not  thousands.  The  whole  of  Ireland  was  in 
jail  at  that  time,  and  people  who  had  never  handled  arms  also. 
When  I  went  there  our  men  were  in  a  terrible  condition.  They  were 
literally  starving.  I  know  one  friend  of  mine, — he  had  never  han- 
dled arms.  He  was  from  Bandon  in  County  Cork.  I  was  god- 
mother to  one  of  his  children.  He  was  sent  to  Wakefield  before  my 
husband  was.  He  was  not  allowed  anything,  not  a  book,  not  even  a 
prayerbook.  All  of  his  wife's  letters  were  stopped,  and  he  thought 
that  something  had  happened  to  her,  because  she  was  not  very 
strong  at  that  time.  His  wife  was  one  of  the  first  to  get  into  the 
jails  to  see  their  people.  Well,  I  went  over  just  to  help  those  men. 
It  was  June  when  I  went  over.  They  were  in  a  frightful  state.  They 
had  literally  no  food  except  what  we  brought  them.  Of  course  there 
were  many  Dublin  men  there,  too,  but  I  was  looking  after  the  Cork 
men. 

Q.     After  they  were  released  in  1916,  tell  what  happened. 

A.     I  was  ill  after  they  were  released  in  1916. 

Q.     Were  you  in  Cork? 

SECOND    ARREST   AND    DEPORTATION    WITHOUT 
CHARGE  OR  TRIAL 

A.  Yes,  I  was  in  Cork,  and  I  was  in  Dublin  for  a  month,  and 
then  I  went  over  to  England  for  a  visit.  And  while  I  was  there  I 
got  the  news  that  my  husband  had  been  arrested  again.  He  had 
been  out  a  very  short  time,  about  a  month,  I  think. 

Q.     What  was  the  date  of  that? 

A.     In  February,  1917. 

Q.     On  what  charge? 

A.  There  was  no  charge  whatever.  He  was  deported  to  England 
with  several   others  from  different  parts  of  the  country.     I  heard 


271 

just  that  they  were  arrested  and  deported  to  England.  I  did  not 
know  where  they  were,  of  course.  At  that  time  we  were  not  en- 
gaged, but  only  friends;  but  I  think  I  felt  how  things  were,  and 
that  he  felt  the  same  as  myself.  I  was  in  London  then,  and  went  to 
Cambridge  to  stay  there  with  an  Irish  friend.  She  was  at  the  univer- 
sity there  then.  At  that  time  no  communication  was  allowed  with 
our  men  in  jail  whatever.  I  found  out  from  Mr.  Laurence  Ginnell, 
the  Irish  M.  P.,  and  he  told  me  that  he  had  seen  some  of  the  men 
and  he  thought  that  my  husband  was  in  Shrewsbury.  I  met  a  police- 
man at  the  station  and  asked  him  where  the  men  were,  and  he  said 
that  the  military  had  charge  of  them,  and  told  me  to  ask  a  soldier. 
I  asked  a  soldier  and  he  said  they  had  gone,  and  that  nobody  would 
ever  know  where  they  had  gone. 

ENGAGED  AND  MARRIED   IN  INTERNMENT  CAMP 

I  felt  very  badly.  I  did  not  know  what  to  do.  And  that  night  I 
heard  from  him.  They  had  been  sent  up  to  Bromyard  in  Hereford- 
shire. And  I  went  up  to  see  him.  And  we  really  became  engaged 
that  night. 

Q.     He  was  in  jail  then? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  the  same  as  in  jail.  He  was  confined  to  a  certain 
area,  and  could  not  go  out  of  it. 

Q.     He  was  interned? 

A.     He  was  interned,  yes. 

Q.     What  date  was  that? 

A.     That  would  be, — 0  we  were  engaged  on  the  third  of  March. 

Q.     And  how  long  was  he  interned  after  that  time? 

A.     He  was  there  until  after  we  were  married. 

Q.     And  when  were  you  married? 

A.     About  a  fortnight  in  June. 

Q.     And  how  long  did  you  remain  in  England? 

A.  We  had  to  remain  in  England  for  a  time  after  that.  But 
although  we  were  in  England,  we  were  married  by  an  Irish  priest, 
Father  Augustine.  You  have  had  him  over  here.  And  we  were 
married  in  our  own  language,  the  Irish  language. 

Q.     And  that  was  on  what  date? 

A.     The  ninth  of  June,  1917. 

Q.     And  you  went  back  to  Ireland  when? 

A  BRIEF  RESPITE  BETWEEN  ARRESTS 

A.  About  a  fortnight  after  that.  The  men  were  released,  those 
who  were  interned,  and  we  all  went  back  to  Ireland  at  that  time. 


272 

I  went  back  to  Ireland  with  him,  and  then  we  went  off  in  the  country 
together.  And  that  time  was  about  the  only  one  that  we  had  to- 
gether. 

Q.      How  long  did  you  remain  there? 

A.     For  some  time. 

Q.     Where  were  you? 

A.  At  Ballingeary,  in  County  Cork,  a  very,  very  beautiful  place 
out  in  the  country  where  they  still  do  things  in  the  old  Irish  way. 
They  do  not  know  English  there  yet,  I  am  glad  to  say,  and  they  are 
very  much  better  off  for  it. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  from  Ballingeary? 

A.     We  returned  to  Cork. 

Q.     How  long,  then,  did  you  remain  at  Cork? 

A.  About  three  months.  And  then  my  husband  had  to  go  up  to 
Dublin  to  look  after  his  affairs,  but  he  did  not  stay  there. 

Q.     He  came  back  to  Cork  then? 

A.  Yes,  he  came  back  to  Cork  and  tried  to  settle  down,  and  it 
was  while  we  were  there,  in  the  house  that  we  had  just  got.  that  he 
was  arrested. 

Q.     He  was  arrested? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  arrested  in  November  at  two-thirty  o'clock  in  the 
morning  by  seven  policemen. 

Q.     Were  you  there  then? 

A.     Yes,  I  was. 

Q.     How  was  he  arrested? 

A.  They  came  to  the  house  for  him  and  took  him,  and  although 
it  was  but  so  very  early  in  the  morning,  they  were  afraid  to  take  him 
through  the  streets  of  the  city  where  someone  might  see  them.  And 
although  my  husband  had  lived  in  Cork  all  his  life  and  knew  the 
city  well,  they  went  in  such  a  round-about  way  that  he  said  he  did 
not  know  some  of  the  streets  through  which  they  took  him. 

Q.     What  was  the  charge  on  which  they  arrested  him? 

A.     Wearing  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army. 

THE  FIRST  HUNGER  STRIKE 

Q.  Your  husband  was  taken  to  prison  and  went  on  a  hunger 
strike? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  your  husband  go  without  food? 

A.  He  went  without  food  for  three  days. 

Q.  That  was  at  what  time? 

A.  That  was  just  before  Christmas. 


273 

Q.     1917? 

A.     Yes.  I'M  7.     He  was  at  home  for  Christmas. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  that  the  hunger  strike  that  the  Irish 
prisoners  all  demanded  that  a  hearing  he  given  them  and  eharges 
produced  or  that  they  he  freed? 

A.     No.  sir. 

Q.      F.  P.  Walsh:    That  was  not  the  Mountjoy  hunger  strike? 

A.     0  no.     This  was  in  Cork. 

Q.     There  was  a  large  hunger  strike   later  in   Mountjoy? 

A.     0  yes.  there  was. 

Q.     About  how  many  went  on  this  strike? 

A.     About  twenty,  I  think. 

Q.      And  they  all  went  without  food  for  several  days? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  After  six  weeks'"  imprisonment  they  went  on 
hunger  strike  to  protest  against  not  being  treated  as  prisoners  of 
war. 

Q.     And  they  were  released  by  the  Christmas  amnesty? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.      And  how  long  after  this  was  he  again  arrested? 

A  CHRISTMAS  TOGETHER  BREAKS  SUCCESSION 
OF  ARRESTS 

A.  I  want  to  say  that  this  was  the  only  Christmas  I  ever  had  my 
husband  for.  It  was  the  only  Christmas  that  we  were  together.  He 
was  arrested  again  in  the  beginning  of  March. 

Q.     1917? 

A.  1918.  I  went  up  to  Dublin  to  rest,  and  he  went  up  with  me 
to  keep  me  company.  We  arrived  in  Dublin  about  two,  and  three 
of  these  G  Division  men  came  and  arrested  him  about  six.  I  never 
speak  to  these  people  at  all,  because  I  think  it  is  better  not  to.  But 
this  time  I  had  to.  I  asked  them  where  they  were  taking  my  hus- 
band, and  they  would  not  tell  me.  They  twisted  and  twisted,  and 
said,  "0  it's  uncertain."  I  knew  very  well  that  they  knew,  because 
they  were  men  high  up.  I  kept  after  them,  and  two  of  the  men  said 
they  would  come  back  the  next  morning  and  tell  me  where  my  hus- 
band was  taken  to. 

Q.     Where  was  he  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  the  Bridewell  in  Dublin.  It  was  a  terrible 
place. 

Q.     Where  is  the  Bridewell  located? 

A.  There  are  several  Bridewells  in  Dublin.  This  Bridewell  was 
near  the  Four  Courts  in  Dublin. 


274 

Q.     Describe  this  place. 

A.  The  men  were  not  treated  like  human  beings  there.  They 
had  no  mattresses,  no  bedclothing,  no  anything.  And  what  struck 
me  as  most  terrible  was  that  they  had  sort  of  round  holes  in  the 
doors,  and  the  prisoners  could  just  stick  their  heads  through.  And 
some  of  them  were  mere  boys  there  in  that  frightful  place. 

Q.     How  long  was  your  husband  there? 

A.  He  was  taken  away  the  next  morning  to  Belfast.  And  those 
men  came  back  the  next  morning  and  would  give  me  no  information 
whatever.  And  there  I  was,  not  knowing  where  to  look  nor  what  to 
do.  And  then  I  learned  he  was  at  Belfast.  He  was  in  jail  there  for 
about  three  weeks,  and  then  he  was  removed  to  Dundalk. 

Q.     How  long  was  he  in  Dundalk? 

A.     He  was  there  until  the  beginning  of  September. 

Q.     From  what  date? 

A.     From  about  the  middle  of  March. 

BABY  FIRST  SEES  HER  FATHER  IN  JAIL 

Q.     What  time  was  Maura  born? 

A.  Well,  he  was  up  in  Dundalk.  Of  course,  T  was  in  Belfast 
first,  and  then  I  was  in  Dundalk  until  I  had  to  go  home, — until  the 
baby  was  about  to  be  born.  My  husband  wished  that  she  should  be 
born  in  Cork,  his  native  city.  He  said  that  she  might  have  to  work 
for  Ireland,  and  he  wanted  her  to  be  born  there.  I  went  home  the 
end  of  May,  and  she  was  born  the  twenty-first  of  June. 

Q.     When  did  your  husband  first  see  her? 

A.  He  was  in  Dundalk  when  she  was  born,  but  he  was  moved  to 
Belfast  soon  afterwards,  and  we  had  to  take  her  up  there  to  see  her 
father,  because,  although  his  sentence  would  be  completed  soon,  they 
had  at  that  time  taken  to  arresting  people  on  the  door  of  the  jail 
just  as  they  were  walking  out  on  finishing  their  sentence,  and  then 
deporting  them  to  England  without  any  charge  at  all. 

Q.  What  was  your  husband's  sentence  on  the  original  charge 
against  him? 

A.  That  was  the  sentence  against  him  just  after  we  were  married. 
He  got  six  months  for  wearing  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Republican 
Army. 

Q.     Did  your  husband  have  any  official  position  in  it  then? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  a  commandant  in  the  Irish  Army  at  that  time. 

Q.     You  say  you  went  up  to  be  there  at  the  time  of  his  release? 

A.  Yes,  I  went  up  there,  for  we  knew  that  probably  he  would 
be  deported  to  England  like  the  others,  and  that  was  the  reason  that 


275 

I  took  the  baby  up;  because  if  he  was  deported  to  England  I  might 
not  be  allowed  to  see  him  at  all,  and  he  might  never  see  his  little 
daughter.  I  was  staying  a  good  distance  from  the  prison,  because  I 
thought  it  would  be  better  to  be  where  I  was  when  I  stayed  in  Bel- 
fast before,  because  the  lady  there  liked  children. 

Q.     How  old  was  the  baby? 

A.  She  was  six  weeks  old.  We  left  Cork  at  three,  and  we  did 
not  get  to  Belfast  until  half  past  ten  at  night.  My  sister-in-law  went 
with  me, — not  this  one,  but  the  other  sister-in-law.  Of  course  a 
long  trip  like  that  was  not  very  good  for  the  baby,  as  your  wife  can 
tell  you. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  stay  there? 

A.  About  a  fortnight.  She  used  to  be  taken  into  the  prison 
every  day.  I  don't  suppose  anyone  so  young  had  ever  been  taken 
into  that  prison  before.  She  was  so  young.  Her  father,  of  course, 
was  delighted  to  see  her.  If  he  had  been  allowed  to  act  according 
to  his  interests  and  desires,  he  would  have  stayed  at  home  with  the 
baby  and  me.  He  liked  his  home.  That  is,  he  would  have  liked  to 
do  that  if  Ireland  had  been  free. 

Q.     When  did  he  return  home? 

RE-ARRESTED  AT  JAIL  GATE 

A.  0,  you  see  he  was  arrested  just  as  he  was  walking  out  of  the 
jail,  as  we  expected. 

Q.     Were  you  there? 

A.  He  did  not  wish  me  to  be  present,  because  the  police  might 
pull  me  back  and  hurt  me,  as  they  often  do  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go? 

A.     I  went  back  to  Cork,  and  I  was  there  when  he  was  deported. 

Q.     What  was  that  date? 

A.  About  the  beginning  of  September.  About  the  fourth  of 
September,  I  think. 

Q.     Where  was  he  taken? 

A.  He  was  taken  to  Lincoln.  President  de  Valera  was  there  at 
that  time.     He  was  sent  there  earlier  than  my  husband. 

Q.     Did  you  visit  him  there? 

A.  I  was  not  allowed  to  see  him.  I  had  practically  no  com- 
munication with  him  at  that  time  because  the  letters  I  sent  him  had 
to  go  through  the  prison  authorities  and  through  the  English  au- 
thorities at  London  also. 

Q.     How  long  did  that  endure? 

A.     From  September  to  the  beginning  of  March. 


276 

Q.     When  did  you  again  see  your  husband? 

A.     In  March. 

Q.     He  returned  to  Cork? 

A.  Yes,  to  Cork.  He  was  released  before  the  others  a  little  bit 
on  parole,  because  I  had  the  influenza.  He  got  a  week  on  parole, 
and  by  the  time  that  was  up  he  was  released.  He  expected  that  thev 
intended  to  release  him  or  they  would  not  have  let  him  be  with  me 
then.     Because,  you  see,  when  the  baby  was  born  he  was  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Did  he  attempt  to  be  paroled  at  the  time  of  the  birth  of  the 
baby? 

A.     He  would  have  liked  to,  of  course. 

Q.     Was  any  effort  made  that  you  know  of? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of.     Of  course  I  was  ill  at  the  time. 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  his  release  from  prison  that  you 
spoke  of? 

A.     In  March,  1919. 

Q.  Who  was  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  at  that  time?  Was  it  before 
the  election  of  Mr.  MacCurtain? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     It  was  Mr.  Butterfield  who  was  Lord  Mayor  then. 

Q.  Was  he  arrested  from  that  time  down  to  the  time  he  was 
elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     No,  he  was  not. 

ELECTED    LORD    MAYOR   OF    CORK   TO    SUCCEED 
MURDERED  FRIEND 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  detail  what  took  place  from  that  time  to 
the  time  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork.  The  elections  inter- 
vened ? 

A.     Yes,  they  did,  while  my  husband  was  still  in  Lincoln  Prison. 

Q.     Was  he  elected? 

A.     Yes,  he  was. 

Q.     He  was  a  candidate  from  where? 

A.     He  was  a  candidate  from  Mid  Cork. 

Q.     Is  that  a  part  of  the  county  of  Cork? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  That  was  the  place  where  my  husband's  family 
was  from.  That  was  the  place  where  we  spent  our  honeymoon — 
because  what  time  we  spent  in  England  when  we  were  married  we 
did  not  count  as  a  honeymoon.  It  was  when  we  got  back  to  Ballin- 
geary,  when  he  came  back  that  time  when  he  was  released.  The 
little  girl  was  about  nine  months  old.  We  were  afraid  she  would 
begin  to  speak  then,  and  her  father  wanted  her  to  learn  Irish.  I 
did  not  know  very  much  Irish  at  that  time.     My  husband  knew  it 


277 

very,  very  well,  hut  I  did  not  know  much.  I  had  not  made  much 
headway  with  it.  So  I  went  down  to  that  place  I  spoke  of,  which 
is  the  Irish-speaking  district. 

Q.     For  how  long? 

A.     For  seven  months.  1  think  it  was. 

Of  course,  in  the  country  almost  everyhody  knows  Irish.  Every- 
hody  knew  Irish  hefore  the  English  came  into  the  country,  but  in 
the  towns  the  Irish  language  had  died  out  a  hit,  and  only  the  old 
folks  knew  it.  We  had  this  ring  (indicating  small  gold  circle  on 
dress).  You  can  get  this  ring  when  you  sign  a  paper  and  say  that 
you  will  not  speak  any  English  to  anybody  else  who  has  this  ring. 
And  after  I  was  back  in  Ballingeary  awhile  I  got  this  ring.  And 
after  I  got  it,  I  never  spoke  a  word  of  English  to  my  husband  or 
to  the  baby. 

Q.     The  baby  is  how  old? 

A.     About  two  and  one-half  years,  sir. 

Q.     And  she  speaks  Irish? 

A.  Yes,  Irish.  In  this  district  where  I  was,  there  are  a  lot  of 
tourists,  and  they  speak  English,  of  course.  But  for  the  last  three 
months  I  was  there  I  never  spoke  a  word  of  English  to  anybody. 
Of  course,  my  husband  was  there  then,  and  he  never  spoke  a  word 
of  English  either.  We  gave  one  of  these  rings  to  the  baby  when 
she  was  born,  so  that  she  would  always  speak  her  own  language. 
We  had  to  take  it  away  from  her  because  she  put  it  in  her  mouth, 
but  I  think  it  is  time  to  give  it  to  her  again. 

Q.     When  did  you  return  to  Cork? 

A.  November,  1919.  I  should  like  to  say  that  while  we  were 
in  Ballingeary  the  English  soldiers  and  police  twice  raided  the 
house  we  were  living  in  at  4  o'clock  in  the  morning.  Luckily  my 
husband  was  not  there  either  time.  He  used  to  go  back  and  forth 
from  Cork. 

Q.     Did  you  vote  at  the  election? 

A.     No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  They  held  a  general  election,  however,  at  which  all  the  men 
and  women  of  Cork  were  entitled   to   vote? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  they  did  vote? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.     Where  were   you   at  the  time? 

A.     I  was  in  Cork,  but  I  was  ill. 

Q.     What  is  the  age  of  the  franchise  for  women? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  that  better 
than  I  can.  » 


278 

Q.     It  is  thirty,  I  understand. 

A.     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.     You  are  still  an  infant,  so  far  as  the  franchise  is  concerned? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  In  this  general  election  there  was  a  full  and  free  vote  for 
members  of  the  Council? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  number  of  candidates  voted  on  at  that 
time? 

A.     About  thirty,  I  think. 

Miss  Mary  MacSwiney:  There  were  more  than  that,  about 
sixty-six. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney  says  sixty-six. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  I  don't  know  much  about  it. 

Q.     Following  that  election  who  was  elected  mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Mayor  MacCurtain. 

Q.     And  he  was  a  friend  of  your  husband? 

A.  Yes,  indeed;  a  lifelong  friend.  Mrs.  MacCurtain  used  to 
tell  me  that  if  my  husband  was  a  girl  she  would  be  jealous  of  him, 
because  they  were  together  for  so  long  a  time,  and  planned  and 
worked  for  Ireland  together. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Cork  at  the  time  of  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Were  you  there  at  the  inquest? 

A.     I  was  in  Cork,  but'  I  was  very  ill  at  the  time. 

Q.     So  you  had  better  leave  that  to  your  sister-in-law? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Just  describe  the  events  leading  up  to  the  death  of  your 
husband.  After  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  your  hus- 
band was  elected  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.     Yes,  he  was. 

Q.     And  you  were  not  present  when  he  was  invested  with  office? 

A.     No. 

Q.     How  long  was  he  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  before  his  arrest? 

A.     About  six  months. 

HUSBAND  DARE  NOT  STAY  AT  HOME 

Q.     And  were  you  in  Cork  all  that  time? 

A.  We  came  back  to  Cork  before  the  election,  and  we  got 
another  house.  We  gave  up  the  other  house.  But  my  husband 
could  not  stay  there  nights. 


279 

Q.     Why? 

A.  Because  he  would  be  arrested.  The  English  police  and  sol- 
diers would  arrest  him.  For  years  he  has  had  to  do  that.  He  really 
could  not  be  with  me  at  all.  He  could  not  be  where  they  might  find 
him  nights.  I  stayed  with  friends,  cousins  of  my  husband.  The 
house  was  a  little  bit  out  of  the  way,  a  side  house,  and  he  could 
come  there  occasionally,  but  always  at  a  very  great  risk  for  fear 
of  being  arrested.  The  baby  was  nearly  two  years  old  then,  but 
she  did  not  see  much  of  her  father.  And  she  was  awfully  fond 
of  him.  He  had  a  telephone  in  his  office  when  he  was  made  Lord 
Mayor,  in  his  office  at  the  City  Hall.  And  I  used  to  speak  to  him 
on  the  telephone.  Sometimes  I  was  speaking  to  other  people,  but 
whoever  I  was  speaking  to  on  the  telephone,  the  baby  would  shout 
and  snatch  the  receiver  out  of  my  hand  and  think  it  was  her  father, 
and  she  would  whisper,  just  whisper  to  him.  She  loved  him  and 
he  loved  her.  and  wanted  to  be  with  her  more  than  anything  else. 

CHARACTER,  EDUCATION,  AND  ACHIEVEMENTS 
OF  TERENCE  MACSWINEY 

Q.     Your  husband  was  a  literary  man,  I  believe? 

A.  Yes,  he  was.  He  wrote  a  lot.  He  wrote  some  very  excellent 
poems  and  plays. 

Q.  You  might  describe  him,  his  inclinations,  age,  appearance, 
and  so  forth. 

A.  I  think  the  chief  characteristic  of  my  husband — apart  from 
his  love  of  Ireland,  which  was  above  everything  else — was  his  love 
of  people,  his  charity.  He  never  said  a  word  against  anybody.  I 
never  heard  him  say  a  word  against  his  worst  enemies.  I  will  go 
into  that  a  little  later  on  when  describing  him  at  Brixton.  I  remem- 
ber that  when  he  was  in  Wakefield,  a  few  of  them  were  put  into 
solitary  confinement,  and  they  thought  that  surely  they  would  be 
shot,  because  some  others  had  been  shot  who  were  in  solitary  con- 
finement. And  even  then,  when  he  expected  death,  he  would  not 
say  anything  harsh  against  the  English. 

Q.     How  tall  was  he? 

A.     Fairly  tall. 

Q.     Dark  complexion? 

A.  Yes,  very  dark,  with  black  hair — a  lot  of  it,  with  one  big 
lock  that  was  always  getting  over  his  face.  We  used  to  tease  him 
about  that  lock  of  hair.     He  was  very  good  looking,  I  think. 

Q.     Of  course  you  were  familiar  with  what  he  wrote? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  I  was. 


280 

Q.     What  was  it,  in  a  general  way?     Did  he  write  verse? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  he  was  more  of  a  poet  than  anything  else,  I  think. 

Q.     And  did  that  go  back  to  his  young  manhood? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  When  he  was  about  thirteen  or  fourteen  he  wrote 
some  beautiful  things,  some  of  his  most  beautiful  things.  My  hus- 
band wrote  plays,  too. 

Q.     What  was  his  education? 

A.  He  was  educated  at  the  North  Monastery  in  Cork,  the  Chris- 
tian Brothers  in  Cork.  But  of  course  he  educated  himself,  like  most 
Irish  people  do.  Of  course  you  will  hear  about  that  from  my 
sister-in-law.  My  husband's  father  died  when  he  was  fifteen,  and 
he  had  to  be  taken  away  from  school  and  go  into  business.  And 
so  he  studied  at  nights,  although  he  was  working  hard  from  eight- 
thirty  in  the  morning  until  six. 

Q.     What  was  his  business? 

A.  He  was  an  accountant  in  Cork.  At  first  he  used  to  stay  up 
most  of  the  night  and  study,  but  he  found  that  was  very  bad  for 
him  and  he  got  headaches  and  the  like.  And  then  he  used  to  come 
home  and  have  tea  and  go  to  bed,  and  then  get  up  about  two  in  the 
morning  and  study.  And  when  I  heard  that,  I  thought  that  a  man 
like  that  could  do  anything.  At  first  he  would  have  a  fire,  but  he 
found  that  that  would  make  him  sleepy,  so  that  even  in  cold 
weather,  in  the  winter,  he  would  be  without  a  fire.  And  he  studied 
like  that  until  he  got  his  degree. 

Q.     What  degree  did  he  get? 

A.     The  degree  from  the  Royal  University  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Just  describe  his  election  as  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork. 

A.  I  think  my  sister-in-law  could  tell  you  that  better,  because 
I  was  not  well  at  the  time. 

Q.  But  just  a  general  idea — what  he  told  you  about  it.  He 
expected  to  be  elected  Lord  Mayor? 

A.  Of  course  he  thought  he  would  be.  He  knew  it  was  a  very 
dangerous  post,  after  what  had  happened  to  his  predecessor.  Mayor 
MacCurtain  was  his  greatest  friend,  I  might  say,  and  it  was  his 
duty  to  fill  his  place. 

Q.     Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  it? 

A.     Not  very  much,  because  I  was  ill  at  the  time. 

PREDECESSOR  MURDERED  IN  HIS  OWN  HOME 

Q.  Briefly,  for  the  record,  tell  what  did  happen  to  his  prede- 
cessor. 

A.     He  was  at  home  one  night  in  his  own  house. 
Q.     What  was  his  name? 


281 

A.  Thomas  MacCurtain.  He  was  a  very  quiet  sort  of  man,  and 
just  like  my  husband,  he  would  have  liked  to  be  at  home  with  his 
wife  and  children  all  the  time.  He  had  five  children,  very  sweet 
little  children.  One  was  only  a  year  old.  He  was  at  home  one 
night,  sleeping  with  his  wife  and  children,  and  his  sisters-in-law 
were  also  there.  And  there  was  a  knock  at  the  door  and  his  wife 
went  to  the  door — the  men  do  not  answer  the  door  at  night  in  Ire- 
land, for  they  might  be  shot.  The  men  broke  into  the  house  and 
pinioned  her  arms,  and  went  upstairs  and  shot  the  Lord  Mayor. 

Q.      In  the  presence  of  his  wife? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  At  what  hour? 

A.  In  the  middle  of  the  night.  At  a  time  when  there  would 
be  nobody  about. 

Q.     Who  did  that? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Was  it  developed  afterwards  in  the  coroner's 
inquest  who  did  the  shooting  of  the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     Yes,  it  was.     The  police. 

Q.     The  British  police? 

A.  Yes,  of  course,  the  British  police  in  Ireland,  but  at  the  orders 
of  their  government. 

Q.  The  coroner's  jury  found  that  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  killed 
by  the  Irish  police  under  orders  from  the  British  government? 

A.  Yes,  the  Irish  police,  being  the  English  forces.  I  know  you 
all  understand  that. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  killing  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was 
your  husband  elected? 

A.  Almost  immediately  afterwards,  when  the  funeral  and  all 
that  was  over. 

BESET     BY     DANGER     IN     PUBLIC     DUTIES     AND 
PRIVATE  LIFE 

Q.  And  during  the  time  that  he  was  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  did 
he  live  at  home? 

A.     He  could  not. 

Q.  He  was  still  pursued  and  had  to  live  in  the  homes  of  other 
people? 

A.  Yes.  It  was  very  much  worse  after  he  was  Lord  Mayor  of 
Cork  than  it  was  ever  before. 

Q.     Did  the  corporation  meet  from  time  to  time? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  did  he  preside  at  the  meetings? 


282 

A.     Certainly. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:   Did  they  meet  in   the  town  hall? 

A.  Yes,  in  the  city  hall.'  It  was  not  secret.  Anybody  could 
go  in. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  It  might  be  interesting  to  know  why  they 
did  not  arrest  the  Lord  Mayor  when  they  were  meeting? 

A.     I  do  not  know.     Perhaps  they  were  afraid  of  public  opinion. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  police  do  not  work  in  the  daytime? 
They  expect  to  surprise  these  men  in  their  homes  and  in  their  beds? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  I  think  that  they  are  afraid  of  doing  it  in  a  public 
place. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  He  thought  he  would  be  arrested  or  mur- 
dered if  he  stayed  in  his  own  home? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  He  never  even  went  about  alone.  He  could  not. 
Someone  went  with  him,  not  so  much  to  guard  him  as  to  identify 
anyone  who  might  attack  him.  A  Volunteer  went  with  him  or  I 
often  went  with  him. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  that  was  the  reason  they  did  not  do 
it  in  public. 

A.     Yes.     Of  course  they  did  not  want  to  be  identified. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  furthermore  it  would  create  a  hostile 
popular  demonstration  to  shoot  him  in  public. 

A.  Oh,  yes;  certainly  it  would.  They  would  not  shoot  him 
where  they  might  be  identified.  I  could  identify  an  assailant  as 
well  as  anybody  else,  so  I  was  often  with  him. 

SAW  HUSBAND  SELDOM  BECAUSE  OF  DANGER 

Q.  Just  give  us  your  own  general  description  of  his  life  after 
that. 

A.  As  I  told  you  before,  since  the  Christmas  before,  after  I  came 
back  from  the  country,  I  lived  with  distant  relations  and  friends, 
because,  as  I  told  you,  we  could  not  stay  in  a  house  of  our  own 
because  he  could  never  be  there  at  all,  and  I  could  not  very  well 
be  there  on  account  of  the  raids  and  that  sort  of  thing  going  on. 
And  so  I  saw  my  husband  sometimes,  because  I  was  in  the  house 
of  friends,  but  indeed  very,  very  seldom,  and  always  at  a  very  great 
risk.  Sometimes  he  would  come  up  after  dark,  because  it  was  a 
little  out-of-the-way  place,  a  little  outside  of  the  city.  That  was 
better.  And  then  he  would  come  after  dark  and  go  away  the  first 
thing  in  the  morning.  The  only  meal  I  could  have  him  for  was 
breakfast,  and  that  on  rare  occasions.  I  hardly  ever  saw  my  hus- 
band at  all,  to  tell  the  truth. 


283 

Q.  And  that  continued  for  six  months  after  he  was  elected  Lord 
Mayor? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  of  course;  ever  since  we  were  married.  But  it  was 
very,  very  much  worse  after  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you  would  like  to  tell  the  Com- 
mission after  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     I  do  not  think  so. 

THE  FINAL  ARREST 

Q.     When  was  your  husband  arrested  the  last  time? 

A.     He  was  arrested  on  the  twelfth  of  August. 

Q.     Where  were  you  at  that  time? 

A.  I  was  in  Cork  on  the  twelfth  of  August,  and  at  two  o'clock 
on  that  day  I  and  my  little  girl  went  down  to  the  seaside. 

Q.     That  was  the  twelfth  of  August,  1920? 

A.  Yes.  I  took  the  baby  down  to  the  seaside.  There  was  no 
one  along  there  besides  ourselves.  It  was  to  another  Irish-speaking 
district. 

Q.     About  how  far  from  Cork? 

A.  It  was  to  Youghal.  You  took  the  train  to  the  station,  and 
then  it  was  a  short  distance — on  a  bicycle  about  five  minutes — up 
to  the  town.  It  is  an  out-of-the-way  place  not  very  far  from  Cork. 
I  did  not  know  about  my  husband's  arrest  until  the  next  morning, 
when  a  friend  came  over  with  the  paper  and  told  me  that  he  was 
arrested  the  night  before,  about  seven  o'clock. 

Q.     What  did  you  do  then? 

A.  What  could  I  do?  There  was  nobody  to  mind  the  baby 
except  myself.  I  had  nobody  to  take  her  except  strangers,  and  she 
would  not  go  to  them.  My  sister-in-law  here  came  down  to  take 
care  of  the  baby.  She  came  down  the  next  day,  on  Saturday.  They 
had  tried  to  see  my  husband — both  of  my  sisters-in-law  tried  to  see 
him.  He  had  been  arrested  and  taken  to  the  military  barracks,  and 
they  were  not  allowed  to  see  him.  They  could  not  see  him  until 
Saturday  morning.     He  was  then  on  hunger  strike. 

Q.     When  did  you  go  to  Cork? 

A.  I  did  not  go  to  Cork  until  Monday.  I  went  up  to  my  sister- 
in-law's  house.  This  sister-in-law  (indicating  Miss  Mary  Mac- 
Swiney)  was  down  at  the  seashore  taking  care  of  the  baby.  That, 
was  the  day  of  the  trial. 


284 

BEGINNING  OF   FATAL   HUNGER   STRIKE 

Q.     Did  you  see  him  before  the  trial? 

A.  My  sister-in-law  and  myself  went  up  to  the  barracks.  That 
was  where  he  was  to  be  tried.  A  big  military  lorry  came  up,  a 
very  large  one.  I  never  saw  so  many  soldiers  in  a  military  lorry 
in  my  life  before.  My  husband  was  sitting  in  the  center  of  them 
on  a  chair.  That  was  Monday  morning.  He  had  been  on  a  hunger 
strike  since  the  morning  of  his  arrest  on  Thursday. 

Q.     Had  you  been  advised  of  that? 

A.  Yes.  I  need  not  tell  you  that  he  was  very  weak.  It  seemed 
such  a  cruel  thing  to  have  so  many  armed  men  guarding  a  weak 
and  absolutely  unarmed  man. 

Q.     Was  he  all  alone  in  the  lorry? 

A.  Yes,  there  were  no  other  prisoners.  He  was  in  very  great 
pain.  He  looked  it.  I  think  that  was  one  of  the  worst  times  for 
me.  From  the  morning  that  I  heard  my  husband  was  on  a  hunger 
strike,  I  believed  that  he  would  die.  I  felt  terrible  on  that  day 
when  I  saw  him,  because  I  knew  he  was  in  pain,  and  it  was  an 
awful  thing  that  I  could  not  give  him  anything  to  eat,  for  of  course 
it  was  part  of  my  duty  that  I  should  look  after  all  his  wants. 

TRIAL  BY  COURT-MARTIAL 

First  of  all,  they  took  him  up  very  high  stairs  to  a  place  where 
they  were  going  to  try  him;  and  then  they  changed  and  took  him 
down  again.  I  saw  by  his  face  that  he  was  suffering,  and  I  said  to 
one  of  the  soldiers,  could  they  not  give  him  a  chair,  because  he  had 
been  without  food  for  so  long.  That  is  one  of  the  worst  times  in 
a  hunger  strike — the  first  few  days — because  it  is  so  painful.  I 
was  speaking  to  him  in  Irish  and  they  did  not  interfere.  He  told 
me  that  he  felt  himself  that  he  would  be  sentenced,  and  that  he 
would  be  deported  to  England,  and  that  the  others  arrested  with 
him  would  get  out.  But  of  course  he  was  pleased  with  that.  He 
wanted  to  suffer  for  everybody  else's  wrongs. 

Q.     Had  he  stated  his  intentions  at  any  time  to  you? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  he  did.  He  felt  that  what  might  happen  to  him  was 
very  unimportant  to  whatever  he  could  do  to  help  Ireland. 

Q.  Anything  that  you  think  would  interest  the  Commission,  and 
that  you  would  like  to  tell,  about  what  happened  to  your  husband, 
just  tell  the  Commission. 

A.  I  think  I  would  like  to  describe  the  trial.  Of  course  I  always 
knew  what  my  husband's  motives  and  intentions  were.  He  had  no 
other  idea  in  his  head  but  to  die  for  his  country  if  need  be. 


285 

Q.     Describe  the  trial  then. 

A.  Might  I  read  my  husband's  speech  at  this  trial?  It  is  quite 
short. 

Q.     Yes,  certainly.     Did  he  make  it  in  the  beginning  of  the  trial? 

A.  No.  We  went  upstairs  then.  There  were  several  soldiers 
standing  around  him  armed  to  the  teeth.  The  room  was  full  of 
soldiers. 

Q.     Before  what  sort  of  a  court  was  he  tried? 

A.     A  court-martial — soldiers. 

Q.      In  uniform? 

A.     Oh,  yes.     One  of  them  was  presiding. 

Q.     How  many  judges? 

A.     Three  judges — three  soldiers. 

Q.     How  long  a  time  did  the  trial  last? 

A.     For  three  hours.     They  kept  him  there  for  such  petty  things. 

Q.      Did  he  make  a  statement? 

A.  Yes.  he  did.  I  will  read  you  this.  First  of  all,  when  they 
brought  the  charges  against  him,  they  asked  him  if  he  had  anything 
to  say.  He  said  that  if  he  was  an  ordinary  individual,  like  he  was 
before  he  was  elected,  he  would  not  say  anything  at  all.  He  would 
disregard  the  charges,  because  he  never  recognized  England's  courts, 
which  have  no  right  to  function  in  Ireland.  But  he  said  that  because 
he  was  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city,  he  represented  more  than  himself, 
and  that  was  why  he  spoke.  He  said  this  more  or  less  at  the  end 
of  the  charges. 

Q.     What  was  the  charge  against  him? 

A.  There  were  three  charges,  one  of  which  was  that  when  they 
arrested  him  when  they  raided  the  city  hall,  they  found  in  his  desk 
the  text  of  a  speech  he  had  made  when  he  was  made  Lord  Mayor. 
Of  course  this  was  made  six  months  before,  and  it  had  been  pub- 
lished in  all  the  papers,  and  so  if  there  was  anything  objectionable 
in  it,  they  could  have  mentioned  it  sooner.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  he 
had  a  right  to  make  any  speech  in  Ireland  that  he  liked. 

Q.     Were  there  any  other  charges? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  charged  with  having  the  code  used  by  the  police. 

Q.     And  yet  he  was  the  chief  magistrate  of  the  city? 

A.  Yes.  What  he  said  was  that  he  was  the  chief  magistrate, 
and  he  had  the  right  to  have  anything  like  that  that  he  wanted.  He 
said  the  English  had  no  right  to  have  such  a  code.  He  said  it  was 
illegal  for  any  citizen  of  the  Irish  republic  to  have  such  a  code 
without  his  permission. 

Q.     In  the  city  of  Cork? 

A.      In  the  city  of  Cork,  yes. 


286 

Q.     There  was  a  third  charge? 

A.  Yes,  there  was.  It  was  a  resolution  that  was  passed  by  the 
corporation  recognizing  Dail  Eireann  and  renouncing  allegiance  to 
England.  It  was  passed  by  every  public  body  all  over  Ireland,  and 
if  they  wanted  to  arrest  everybody  who  had  passed  that,  they  simply 
could  not  do  it,  because  the  jails  could  not  hold  them. 

Q.     There  was  no  other  charge? 

A.     That  was  all.     Shall  I  read  this  (indicating  paper)? 

The  Commissioners:  Yes,  please. 

STATEMENT  OF  LORD  MAYOR  AT  THE  TRIAL 

The  Witness  (reading)  : 

"We  see  in  the  manner  in  which  the  late  Lord  Mayor  was  mur- 
dered an  attempt  to  terrify  us  all.  Our  first  duty  is  to  answer  that 
threat  in  the  only  fitting  manner:  to  show  ourselves  unterrified, 
cool,  and  inflexible  for  the  fulfillment  of  our  chief  purpose — the 
establishment  of  the  independence  and  the  integrity  of  our  country 
and  the  peace  and  the  happiness  of  the  Irish  Republic.  To  that 
end  I  am  here.  This  contest  on  our  side  is  not  one  of  rivalry  or 
vengeance,  but  of  endurance." 

I  would  like  to  say  something  about  that.  My  husband,  as  I  said 
before,  was  essentially  charitable — a  very  charitable  man.  It  was 
his  chief  characteristic.  He  hadn't  anything  like  vengeance  in  him. 
And  certainly  he  wished  for  nothing  more  than  that  the  English 
would  be  gone  out  of  our  country  and  that  we  could  be  good  friends 
with  them  then. 

"It  is  not  those  who  can  inflict  the  most,  but  those  who  can  suffer 
the  most,  who  will  conquer,  though  we  do  not  abrogate  our  function 
to  demand  that  murderers  and  evil-doers  be  punished  for  their 
crimes.  It  is  conceivable  that  the  army  of  occupation  could  stop 
our  functioning  for  a  time.  Then  it  becomes  simply  a  question  of 
endurance.  Those  whose  faith  is  strong  will  endure  to  the  end  in 
triumph." 

Well,  of  course,  my  husband  was  one  of  the  first  in  Ireland  who 
started  this  movement,  and  a  great  many  people  were  against  it 
then;  they  did  not  believe  that  we  could  be  free  from  England.  In 
Dublin  the  Irish  people  were  always  better  off  than  in  Cork,  for 
in  Cork  they  had  a  very  hard  time  in  the  beginning.  So  only  for 
my  husband's  great  faith  in  our  country  and  his  fa\th  that  they 
would  win  out,  I  don't  suppose  that  we  would  be  vfry  far  along 
today. 


287 

"God  is  over  us,  and  in  His  divine  intervention  we  must  have 
perfect  trust. 

"Anyone  surveying  the  events  in  Ireland  in  the  past  five  years 
must  see  that  it  is  approaching  a  miracle  how  our  country  has  been 
preserved  during  a  persecution  unexampled  in  history,  culminating 
in  the  murder  of  the  head  of  our  great  city.  You  among  us  who 
have  no  vision  have  been  led  astray  by  false  prophets.  I  will  give 
a  recent  example.  Only  last  week  in  our  city  a  judge,  acting  for 
English  usurpation  in  Ireland  and  speaking  in  the  presumptuous 
manner  of  such  people,  ventured  to  lecture  us  and  uttered  this 
pagan  sentiment:  'There  is  no  beauty  in  liberty  that  comes  to  us 
in  innocent  blood.'  At  one  stroke  this  judge  would  shatter  the 
foundations  of  Christianity  by  denying  beauty  to  that  spiritual 
liberty  that  comes  to  us  dripping  in  the  blood  of  Christ  crucified. 
He,  by  His  voluntary  sacrifice  on  Calvary,  delivered  us  from  the 
domination  of  the  devil  when  the  pall  of  evil  was  closing  down 
and  darkening  the  world.  The  liberty  for  which  we  strive  today  is 
a  sacred  thing,  inseparably  entwined  with  that  spiritual  liberty  for 
which  the  Savior  of  man  died  and  which  is  the  foundation  of  all 
just  government.  Because  it  is  sacred,  and  death  for  it  is  akin  to 
the  sacrifice  on  Calvary,  following  far  off  and  yet  constant  to  that 
divine  example,  in  every  generation  our  best  and  bravest  have  died. 
Sometimes  in  our  grief  we  cry  out  the  foolish  and  unthinking  words, 
'The  sacrifice  is  too  great.' 

"It  is  not  we  who  take  innocent  blood,  but  we  offer  it,  sustained 
by  the  example  of  our  immortal  dead  and  that  divine  example  which 
inspires  us  all  for  the  redemption  of  our  country.  Facing  our 
enemy,  we  must  declare  our  attitude  simply.  We  see  in  their  regime 
a  thing  of  evil  incarnate.  With  it  there  can  be  no  parley  any  more 
than  there  can  be  truce  with  the  powers  of  Hell.  We  ask  no  mercy 
and  we  will  accept  no  compromise. 

"The  civilized  world  dare  not  look  on  indifferent  while  new 
tortures  are  being  prepared  for  our  country,  or  they  will  see  under- 
mined the  pillars  of  their  own  government  and  the  world  involved 
in  unimaginable  anarchy.  But  if  the  rulers  of  earth  fail  us,  we  still 
have  refuge  in  the  Ruler  of  Heaven,  and  though  to  some  the  judg- 
ments of  God  seem  slow,  they  never  fail,  and  when  they  fall  they 
are  overwhelming." 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now  that  was  the  speech  which  your  hus- 
band delivered  as  his  inaugural  speech  on  being;  made  Lord  Mayor 
of  Cork? 

A.     No.     I  have  that  here  also. 


288 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  is  the  speech  that  he  delivered  at  his 
trial? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  This  is  the  speech,  is  it  not — if  it  is  not,  correct 
me — that  your  husband  made  at  his  inaugural  as  Lord  Mayor  of 
Cork,  and  the  document  with  which  he  was  charged  with  having 
in  his  possession  which  they  claimed  to  be  seditious? 

A.  That  was  practically  the  same.  This  was  the  speech  that  he 
made  at  his  trial. 

Q.     Have  you  another  one  there? 

A.  Yes.  This  was  the  speech  he  made  when  he  was  made  Lord 
Mayor  (indicating  another  paper). 

Q.     He  delivered  this  speech  at  the  trial? 

A.     Yes,  practically  the  same  thing. 

I  wish  to  say  something  else.  You  know  this  speech  was  one 
of  the  charges  against  him.  Of  course,  one  of  the  soldiers,  the 
president  of  the  court,  read  the  speech,  and  even  coming  from  him, 
it  made  a  very  great  impression  on  everybody  there.  And  even 
on  the  soldiers — no  matter  who  they  were — it  impressed  everybody. 

RECONCILED  TO   HUSBAND'S   DEATH 

As  I  told  you,  I  think  I  felt  that  day  more  myself  than  at  any 
other  time.  Because  now  I  felt  that  my  husband  was  going  to  die. 
After  that  I  was  accustomed  to  it.  The  shock  was  more  in  the 
beginning  for  me.  Of  course  I  was  upset,  although  I  did  not  mean 
to  be.  But  when  he  spoke  himself,  he  made  me  feel  all  right.  You 
have  heard,  I  suppose,  of  the  message  that  he  sent  to  the  men  of 
Cork,  that  when  we  are  doing  work  for  Ireland,  it  should  be  not 
in  tears  but  in  joy.  And  so  I  think  that  it  is  Ireland  that  has  kept 
me  up  all  through.  That  is  the  only  thing.  There  has  been  noth- 
ing else. 

Q.     When  was  he  removed  from  Cork? 

A.  He  was  removed  that  night,  or  at  four  o'clock  the  next  morn- 
ing, I  believe. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  What  was  the  result  of  the  trial? 

A.     He  was  found  guilty  by  the  court-martial. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  And  sentenced  to  what? 

A.  To  two  years.  Of  course  he  told  them  then  that  it  meant 
nothing  what  his  sentence  was,  because  in  a  month's  time  he  would 
be  free,  either  alive  or  dead.  None  of  us  dreamed  that  it  would  be 
a  month.  I  certainly  did  not  think  it  would  be  more  than  a  fort- 
night at  the  outside,  and  I  did  not  think  it  would  be  that  much. 

Q.     You  say  that  after  you  heard  his  speech  you  were  reconciled? 


289 

A.  Of  course  I  was  always  reconciled,  bul  after  that  I  fell  quite 
happy  about  his  work. 

DEPORTATION   AND   IMPRISONMENT   IN   LONDON 

Q.     You  say  you  went  to  London? 

A.  Yes.  but  I  was  able  to  speak  to  him  after  the  trial.  I  asked 
one  of  the  officers  going  out  where  they  were  going  to  take  him. 
Of  course  he  knew.  He  did  not  deny  that  he  knew,  but  you  know 
they  are  very  petty.  He  would  not  tell  me  anything.  My  husband 
was  taken  off  that  night  in  the  state  he  was  in  on  a  submarine.1 
They  were  afraid  to  take  him  from  Cork  during  the  day.  He  was 
taken  to  Pembroke  in  the  submarine,  and  arrived  there  about  two 
o'clock  in  .the  afternoon,  and  he  was  kept  waiting  until  about  six 
o'clock.  Of  course  his  sufferings  were  terrible  coming  over  in  a 
submarine.  In  an  ordinary  boat  it  would  have  been  very  different. 
He  arrived  in  London  about  half-past  two  in  the  morning.  They 
were  afraid  to  take  him  there  during  the  day.  It  was  put  in  the 
London  papers  at  first  that  he  did  arrive  during  the  day.  But  that 
was  a  lie.  And  then  he  was  taken  to  Brixton  prison.  My  sister- 
in-law  who  is  here  went  over  first.  My  mother  was  not  there,  so 
she  could  not  take  the  baby  for  me.  Some  people  with  whom  I 
had  been  staying  since  Christmas,  who  were  very  kind  to  me,  took 
it.  I  left  on  Saturday  morning,  and  went  straightway  to  see  my 
husband. 

Q.     Where  was  he  then? 

A.      In  Brixton   prison. 

PRISON  DOCTORS  SEEK  TO  INDUCE  HER  TO  END 
HUSBAND'S  HUNGER  STRIKE 

Before  I  saw  him  one  of  the  doctors  of  the  prison  spoke  to  me. 
He  was  not  the  head  doctor.  This  was  Dr.  Higson.  Of  course  he 
was  an  Englishman.  He  said  to  me,  "You  will  see  your  husband 
in  a  few  minutes,  and  will  you  not  try  to  get  him  to  take  food?'" 
He  said  he  hoped  I  would  see  the  foolishness  of  what  he  was  doing. 
The  greatest  danger  was  not  if  he  lost  his  life,  but  if  he  was  injured 
for  life.  And  he  said,  of  course,  that  any  injury  which  he  would 
receive  from  the  hunger  strike  might  harm  our  children.  I  told 
him  that  I  understood  that,  and  it  was  perfectly  true,  and  I  under- 


1  The  witness  referred  to  a  torpedo  boat   destroyer.     See   correction   by- 
Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  page  .110. 


290 

stood  the  harm  of  going  without  food,  and  of  course  from  a  health 
point  of  view  I  quite  agreed  with  him;  but  that  I  did  not  interfere 
with  my  husband  in  anything,  especially  in  a  matter  of  conscience; 
and  each  one  was  the  best  judge  in  matters  of  conscience  of  what 
he  should  do.  He  could  not  say  very  much  to  that.  I  saw  my 
husband  then.  I  saw  a  great  change  in  him.  He  looked  very  badly 
indeed. 

Then  we  used  to  see  him  every  day.  And  after  a  bit,  I  think  it 
was  about  a  fortnight,  the  head  doctor  came  back.  He  had  been 
away.  And  of  course  he  often  asked  me  to  ask  my  husband  to  take 
food.  We  never  had  anything  like  scenes,  because  I  do  not  give 
people  opportunity  to  do  that,  to  have  a  fight  or  anything  like 
scenes.  We  were  always  very  civil  to  each  other.  But  he  thought 
it  was  utter  foolishness  for  a  man  to  refuse  to  eat  when  he  always 
had  food  before  him.  Being  an  Englishman,  he  could  not  under- 
stand why  a  man  should  die  for  a  principle.  But  the  subordinate 
doctor,  I  must  say,  was  more  sympathetic.  He  never  urged  me  to 
get  my  husband  to  take  food  after  that  one  time  when  he  told  me 
what  it  would  mean  for  our  children,  which  I  think  from  an  Eng- 
lish doctor's  point  of  view  I  did  not  mind  his  putting  before  me. 
He  did  not  say  much  more  to  me  after  that,  but  the  other  ones  did. 
The  specialist,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  came  in  to  see  him  too,  and  he 
was  also  quite  sympathetic. 

Q.     Did  you  see  your  husband  every  day? 

A.  I  saw  him  every  day.  After  a  bit  he  did  not  like  to  be  there 
without  some  one  of  us.  My  brother-in-law  came  over,  and  his 
other  sister  afterwards.  For  of  course  we  were  afraid  that  he  would 
die  any  moment.  Nothing  but  his  faith  kept  him  alive.  There  is 
no  doubt  about  that.  He  did  not  like  to  be  left  alone,  so  one  of  us 
would  go  in  the  morning,  and  another  at  noon,  and  another  in  the 
evening,  and  like  that. 

HIS  WISH  TO  DIE  FOR  IRELAND 

This  went  on  for  some  time.  My  husband  was  perfectly  peaceful 
and  happy.  I  do  not  think  I  could  have  gone  on  like  that  if  I  had 
not  seen  him  every  day,  because  he  absolutely  radiated  peace.  He 
told  me  in  the  beginning  that  one  reason  that  he  was  glad  to  be 
doing  what  he  was  doing  was  that  he  had  not  taken  a  part  in  any 
of  the  dangerous  things  in  Ireland,  except  the  rebellion,  and  of 
course  they  did  not  fight  in  Cork;  and  he  hated  their  being  in  danger 
when  he  was  not  in  any.  But  what  could  he  do?  So  he  told  me 
that  he  felt  what  he  was  doing  was  as  dangerous  as  anything,  and 


291 

on  account  of  that  he  was  glad  to  do  it.  He  always  wished  to  die 
for  his  country.     He  never  had  any  other  thought. 

Things  went  on  very  much  the  same.  We  always  saw  him.  After 
a  bit  they  got  two  nurses  for  him,  one  for  the  day  and  the  other 
for  the  night. 

My  husband  was  very  charitable,  and  he  never  said  a  word 
against  anyone.  The  doctors  and  nurses  told  me  that  the  only 
thing  which  he  did  say — he  didn't  like  the  head  doctor — and  he  said 
once,  "I  am  fed  up  with  him." 

THE     LAST     FIVE     DAYS:     DOCTORS     THREATEN 
FORCIBLE  FEEDING 

Then  it  came  to  the  Wednesday  before  he  died.  There  isn't  very 
much  to  tell  up  to  that.  Well,  the  Wednesday  before  he  died,  the 
news  had  already  come  that  one  of  the  hunger  strikers  in  Cork  was 
dead.  Of  course,  the  doctors  had  promised  us  that  they  would  not 
feed  him  and  would  not  put  any  food  in  his  medicine  or  anything 
of  that  kind,  but  they  said  that  if  he  became  unconscious  that  they 
would  feed  him. 

Of  course,  if  a  person  becomes  unconscious,  they  are  unconscious, 
and  they  have  no  will  of  their  own;  and  they  could  do  anything 
they  liked  with  him.  And  so  feeding  him  when  he  was  unconscious 
was  like  feeding  him  when  he  was  dead.  Of  course  they  did  prom- 
ise not  to  feed  him  at  all,  or  to  make  any  attempt  to  forcibly  feed 
him — it  would  have  been  forcible,  as  long  as  he  was  conscious. 
It  was  on  Tuesday,  the  Tuesday  before  my  husband  died,  the  news 
came  from  Cork  to  London  of  the  death  of  one  of  the  hunger 
strikers  there.  Of  course  he  had  gone  a  bit  longer  than  my  husband. 
This  frightened  the  doctors  in  the  prison.  One  of  them  went  to 
my  husband  on  his  usual  visit,  and  he  turned  everybody  out  of  the 
room,  including  the  nurse,  which  was  not  usual,  for  she  always  re- 
mained there.  One  of  my  sisters-in-law  was  there  at. the  time.  When 
she  went  back  into  the  room  my  husband  was  terribly  upset,  fright- 
fully upset,  and  he  said  that  this  doctor  told  him  that  he  had  to  eat, 
he  would  make  him  eat.  When  I  got  there  in  the  evening  the  other 
doctor,  the  second  doctor,  whom  I  do  not  think  would  have  done  a 
thing  like  that,  was  on  duty.  My  sister-in-law  said  to  him  that  Dr. 
Griffiths,  the  head  doctor,  had  threatened  to  make  my  husband  eat 
and  had  made  him  awfully  uneasy  that  morning.  When  I  went  in 
my  husband  was  quiet  like  usual,  but  looking  very  badly — worse 
than  usual. 


292 
DELIRIUM 

The  next  morning  I  was  in  the  office  of  the  Self -Determination 
League  in  London.  The  papers  wished  to  get  bulletins,  and  your 
American  papers,  too,  wished  to  get  bulletins  on  my  husband's  con- 
dition every  two  hours.  We  were  allowed  to  use  the  prison  tele- 
phone^— they  did  not  make  any  difficulty  at  all  whatever  about  it. 
All  the  news  was  sent  out  from  the  office  of  the  Self -Determination 
League;  and  of  course,  if  there  was  any  news  about  my  husband 
for  us,  we  would  get  it  there.  I  happened  to  be  in  there  in  the 
morning.  My  two  brothers-in-law  were  in  there  too.  I  was  told 
that  a  telephone  message  had  come,  and  that  they  were  afraid  the 
news  was  bad.  So  I  and  my  brothers-in-law  went  out  to  the  prison 
with  Mr.  O'Brien,  who  is  the  president  of  the  Self-Determina- 
tion  League. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien? 

A.     Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien,  yes.     Do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  know  him  very  well. 

The  Witness:  So  we  went  out,  and  when  we  got  there  we  heard 
that  my  husband  had  become  quite  delirious.  My  sister-in-law — 
not  this  one,  but  the  other1 — was  with  him.  There  was  hammering 
going  on  outside,  and  my  husband  said  to  her,  "That  is  Dr.  Griffiths' 
new  treatment."  She  said,  "Shall  I  stop  it?"  And  he  said,  "No," 
and  then  went  out  of  his  head  completely.  She  asked  the  warden 
to  telephone  to  the  office  so  we  would  know,  and  he  was  very  reluc- 
tant to  do  it.  It  was  half-past  twelve  when  we  got  there.  Both  of 
my  brothers-in-law  and  my  sisters-in-law  were  there  then.  They 
said  my  husband  was  normal  again.  But  when  I  went  in  I  saw  that 
he  was  not.  He  was  fairly  himself,  but  not  completely.  The  others 
all  went  away  then  but  myself  and  the  sister-in-law.  We  remained 
there.  And  he  said  to  me,  "I  want  the  nurse."  The  nurse  was  at 
her  dinner.  My  husband  always  had  a  most  extraordinary  con- 
sideration for  everybody,  and  when  he  asked  for  the  nurse  when 
she  was  at  her  .dinner,  I  knew  he  was  not  right.  Then  they  asked 
us  to  go  outside  the  door.  We  always  went  outside  the  door  when 
they  asked  us;  we  never  made  any  difficulties  about  that.  And  we 
heard  my  husband  shouting  out,  and  we  went  in  then,  and  he  was 
sitting  up  in  bed  and  shouting.  It  was  the  delirium,  because  before 
this  he  could  not  hardly  move  a  finger,  and  he  spoke  only  in  a 
whisper.  And  he  was  sitting  up  in  bed  and  crying  quite  strong 
and  saying,  "This  nurse  will  not  let  me  have  my  wife  and  sister." 


Miss   Annie   MacSwiney. 


293 

And  we  said,  "Here  we  are,1'  and  he  knew  us  perfectly  well.  That 
was  the  worst  of  it.  And  in  other  things  he  was  as  mad  as  could 
be.  But  one  thing  he  said  to  me  then,  when  I  came  into  the  room, 
I  liked.  He  said,  "'Muriel,  you  have  always  stuck  by  me."  And 
he  was  very  bad  then,  and  talked  rubbish.  He  could  not  have  been 
more  mad  than  he  was.  I  have  seen  mad  people,  and  they  were  not 
worse.  And  then  Dr.  Higson  came  up,  who  had  always  acted  like 
a  gentleman  to  me.  He  stroked  him  and  got  him  to  lie  down;  but 
of  course  he  went  on  throwing  him  arms  about  and  talking.  And 
then  they  gave  him  morphia,  and  then  he  got  quieter,  and  in  about 
an  hour  he  was  asleep.  I  stayed  for  quite  a  good  time,  but  did 
not  disturb  him. 

FORBIDDEN  ADMISSION  TO  DYING  HUSBAND 

I  must  tell  you  this  occurrence.  I  wanted  to  do  the  best  I  could 
and  wanted  to  try  to  make  him  better,  and  did  not  know  what 
to  do.  I  used  to  speak  to  him  a  little,  and  then  the  nurse  said,  "I 
think  it  is  better  not  to  speak  to  him,  because  it  disturbs  him."  And 
so  from  that  time  on  I  did  not  speak  to  him,  thinking  it  might 
disturb  him.  In  fact.  I  never  spoke  to  him  first  because  it  was  hard 
for  him  to  respond.  But  if  he  spoke,  I  answered  him  back,  because 
we  did  not  want  to  cross  him  and  offend  him  when  he  was  ill.  He 
would  say  to  me,  "This  is  awful  for  you  because  you  have  to  stay 
here."  And  I  said,  "It  is  a  better  time  than  we  have  had  since  we 
were  married  or  since  you  have  been  Lord  Mayor,  because  I  can 
be  with  you  all  the  time."  And  then  we  laughed.  Anyway,  he  got 
bad  during  the  night.  Of  course  I  was  not  there.  All  up  to  that 
time,  although  my  husband  had  got  terribly  emaciated,  his  mind 
was  perfectly  clear  and  anybody  could  recognize  him,  because  the 
face  is  the  last  thing  that  the  hunger  strike  affects.  For  instance, 
a  friend  of  mine  who  was  our  bridesmaid  stayed  with  me  all  the 
time  I  was  in  London.  She  did  not  ask  to  see  him.  She  was  very 
sensible.  But  he  asked  to  see  her  when  she  was  going  home,  and' 
so  she  went  to  see  him.  She  said  she  would  have  known  him  quite 
well,  although  of  course  it  gave  her  a  great  shock  to  see  him.  Up 
to  that  time,  although  he  was  delirious,  you  would  have  known  him. 
But  the  next  morning  when  I  went  in,  I  would  not  have  known  him 
at  all.  He  was  very  quiet,  and  only  moved  his  hands  a  little  bit. 
That  was  Wednesday  he  got  bad.  The  next  day  was  Thursday.  On 
Friday  I  was  there  in  the  evening.  Of  course  they  started  feeding 
him  when  he  was  unconscious.  And  the  nurse  used  to  do  that.  I 
know  very  well  that  as  long  as  the  nurse  was  there  at  all,  she  had 


294 

to  do  what  the  doctor  told  her,  and  I  never  interfered  with  her  in 
any  way.  I  would  not  have  spoken  to  her  while  she  was  doing  it, 
because  I  was  at  one  side  of  the  bed  and  she  was  at  the  other,  and 
I  might  have  disturbed  my  husband.  He  never  understood  anything 
that  was  going  on  about  him,  I  know,  but  there  was  a  chance  that 
it  might  have  disturbed  him,  so  I  never  said  anything  to  her  at  all. 
Well,  on  Friday  I  was  there  in  the  evening,  and  my  bnother-in-law, 
the  one  who  was  in  New  York,  Peter,  he  was  there  with  me.  And 
then  the  doctor  came  in  in  the  evening.  This  was  the  one,  the 
head  one,  Dr.  Griffiths.  Of  course  I  went  out  of  the  room.  We  both 
went  out  of  the  room.  We  always  did  when  the  doctor  was  there, 
naturally.  When  he  came  out  he  told  the  warder  to  tell  me  that 
we  were  not  to  go  into  the  room  any  more,  any  of  us;  that  we  were 
not  to  go  into  the  room  at  all.  I  must  say  that  after  he  got  very 
bad  the  nurse  used  to  turn  us  out  very  often.  So  they  now  said 
also  that  we  were  not  even  to  stay  outside  the  door.  You  see,  when 
we  would  go  outside  the  room  before,  we  used  to  stay  outside  the 
door  always.  And  they  also  stopped  up  every  little  hole  or  window 
we  could  see  through.  The  warder  said  we  could  not  stay  outside 
the  door,  and  I  said  I  wanted  to  speak  to  the  doctor,  and  he  went 
down  and  found  him.  And  I  asked  him  if  he  was  dying,,  if  he 
would  not  want  his  wife  to  be  near  him.  And  he  said  he  would. 
And  he  said  it  was  bad  for  us  to  be  in  the  room,  so  many  of  us. 
And  I  said,  "We  will  go  out  and  only  one  stay."  And  then  he  laid 
it  onto  the  nurse.  He  said  the  nurse  said  it  was  bad  for  so  many 
of  us  to  be  in  the  room.  And  I  said,  "What  harm  have  I  done  since 
I  have  been  here  with  my  husband?"  And  he  said  nothing.  He 
could  not  tell  me  a  single  thing  that  I  had  done  to  harm  my  hus- 
band. After  a  bit — he  was  a  very  weak  man,  you  see — he  gave  in. 
I  suppose  he  got  orders  to  do  this  from  the  Home  Office,  but  he 
gave  in.  And  he  said  I  could  go  in  there  when  the  nurse  permitted 
me  to,  and  that  I  could  stay  outside  the  door.  I  said,  "I  cannot 
be  here  always,  and  what  will  we  do  when  I  cannot  be  here?"  He 
said,  "I  cannot  refuse  you,  because  you  are  his  wife."  But  he  had 
refused  me  previously.  But  he  said  the  others  could  come  there, 
but  they  would  have  to  stay  downstairs,  a  long  distance  away,  and 
could  not  stay  outside  the  door.  I  said  that  the  only  conclusion 
we  could  come  to  when  they  kept  us  outside  of  my  husband's  room 
was  that  they  were  doing  something  they  did  not  wish  us  to  see. 
So  he  finally  said  that  when  I  could  not  be  there,  I  could  name  one 
of  the  others  to  stay  with  my  husband  when  the  nurse  permitted. 
Then  I  went  upstairs.  There  was  another  nurse  there,  a  new  one, 
and  I  asked  her  if  it  was  true  that  she  had  said  I  was  not  to  go  into 


295 

my  husband's  room,  and  she  said  it  was.  And  I  put  the  same  ques- 
tion to  her  I  had  put  to  the  doctor;  and  she  said,  "No,  you  do  not 
interfere  with  me.  You  have  never  interfered  with  me  when  I  was 
feeding  him.  But  I  know  you  are  against  it,  and  it  makes  me 
nervous."  They  were  feeding  him.  They  were  giving  him  two 
teaspoonfuls  of  liquid  food. 

Q.     When  did  they  begin  that? 

A.  Five  days  before  his  death.  That  was  Wednesday,  and  he 
died  the  following  Monday.  I  said  to  her,  "Of  course,  I  can  quite 
understand  that  as  long  as  you  are  here,  you  have  to  do  what  the 
doctor  tells  you;  but  if  I  were  you  I  would  not  take  a  case  like  this." 
She  knew  she  was  not  doing  right.  But  she  said,  "I  have  taken  this 
case  and  I  must  see  it  out."  But  my  husband  never  said  a  word 
against  this  nurse,  never  a  word. 

I  must  tell  you  this,  that  she  let  me  in  the  room  just  a  few  mo- 
ments at  a  time.  I  was  just  outside  the  room,  but  I  hardly  ever 
saw  my  husband  at  all. 

NEVER  FED  BY  RELATIVES 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  the  newspapers  of  Great  Britain  an- 
nounce that  he  was  being  fed? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.  There  were  announcements  in  the  American  press  that  his 
relatives  were  feeding  him. 

A.     Yes,  that  was  British  propaganda. 

Q.     Where  did  those  announcements  come  from? 

A.     From  the  British  government.     It  was  British  propaganda. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  did  his  relatives  at  any 
time  put  food  before  him? 

A.     Never.     His  relatives  never  did  that. 

Q.     Did  the  prison  officials  offer  him  food? 

A.     Yes,  always;  it  was  always  beside  him. 

Q.     Did  they  bring  him  fresh  food? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  it  was  milk  and  broth  and  things  like  that  that  he 
would  have  had  if  he  got  out.     Food  was  always  put  before  him. 

SISTER-IN-LAW  REFUSED  ADMISSION 

The  next  day  was  Saturday.  My  brother-in-law  had  been  there 
with  him  through  the  night,  and  my  sister-in-law  was  there  to  relieve 
him.  I  found  her  in  the  waiting  room  just  inside  the  gate,  and  then 
she  told  me  that  they  would  not  let  her  in;  they  had  refused  to  let 


296 

her  into  the  prison  at  all.    The  same  sort  of  business  that  had  been 
going  on  the  night  before. 

They  would  not  let  her  out  to  telephone  either,  and  she  could  not 
send  any  message  to  my  brother-in-law  either.  He  was  accustomed 
to  be  relieved  in  the  morning,  after  being  there  all  night.  I  went 
upstairs  immediately,  and  it  was  about  ten-thirty,  and  the  nurse 
would  not  let  me  in. 

FORBIDDEN  USE  OF  TELEPHONE 
As  I  said,  I  had  always  telephoned  about  noon  to  Mr.  O'Brien's 
office  about  the  condition  of  my  husband.  They  had  never  made 
the  slightest  objection  to  it.  The  clerk  now  said  I  could  not  use  the 
telephone,  and  I  said,  "By  whose  orders?"  And  he  said,  "By  the 
governor's  order."  And  he  said  very  politely  that  he  would  speak 
to  the  governor  if  I  wished.  And  I  said  I  would  speak  to  him 
myself.  And  I  went  up  to  the  governor  and  asked  him,  and  he  said 
it  was  his  orders.  And  I  said,  "I  wanted  to  know,  because  of  course 
your  government  is  murdering  my  husband.  You  are  only  an  in- 
strument. But  I  want  to  know  whether  you  are  carrying  out  their 
orders."  The  governor  said  that  we  were  using  the  telephone  too 
much.  I  said  we  had  never  used  the  telephone  much,  and  only 
with  their  permission.  The  deputy  governor  came  up,  and  said 
we  had  always  respected  their  wishes  and  had  not  used  the  telephone 
very  much.  He  then  had  to  admit  it.  I  said  another  thing:  "You 
must  have  got  orders  about  this,  so  that  they  are  stopping  us  from 
going  in  to  see  my  husband."  I  think  he  was  surprised  at  that,  but 
he  said,  "You  are  very  well  treated  here.  You  are  using  this  place 
like  a  hotel,  coming  in  here  any  moment  you  like."  And  I  said, 
"This  is  hardly  like  a  hotel.  My  husband  does  not  wish  to  be 
here,  and  you  are  keeping  him  against  his  will."  And  he  said, 
"Even  in  ordinary  hospitals  there  are  visiting  hours,  and  you  are 
not  allowed  to  see  your  friends  at  any  time."  And  I  said,  "In  an 
ordinary  hospital  we  would  have  put  my  husband  there  with  people 
whom  we  trusted."  I  did  not  have  any  fight  with  him,  but  he  had 
nothing  to  say.  He  sent  a  message  up  in  the  afternoon  that  if  I  had 
anything  to  telephone  and  wrote  it  on  a  piece  of  paper,  they  would 
send  it.    Of  course  you  know  what  that  would  have  meant. 

PERMITTED      ONLY     HALF-HOUR     WITH      DYING 
HUSBAND 
When  my  sister-in-law  came  in  later,  she  was  refused  in  the  same 
manner.     When  I  got  back  to  the  room  the  nurse  let  me  in  about 
half-past  twelve,  and  then  I  was  turned  out  again. 


297 

(Senator  Thomas  Walsh,  of  Montana,  arrives  and  is  escorted  to 
the  Commissioners'  bench.) 

She  let  me  in  for  half  an  hour,  and  then  I  was  asked  to  go  out. 
She  made  some  excuse  like  she  had  to  take  his  temperature.  I 
expect  she  was  feeding  my  husband.  And  then  I  was  in  again  a 
half  hour  later.  Then  the  head  doctor,  Dr.  Griffiths,  came  in  and 
asked  the  nurse  to  go  out,  and  I  went  out  too.  So  I  had  only  about 
a  half  hour  with  my  husband  that  day.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was 
the  last  day  I  saw  him;  but  I  think  he  may  have  half  known  me  that 
day,  because  he  smiled  a  little  bit  when  I  kissed  him.  I  do  not 
know,  but  I  think  he  did. 

There  was  another  thing  about  my  husband  that  I  want  to  men- 
tion. I  think  the  hardest  thing  on  him  was  being  separated  from 
his  little  daughter.  And  I  asked  him  if  he  would  like  to  have  her 
over,  and  he  said,  "Oh,  no;  it  would  only  be  cruelty  to  have  her 
over,"  and  she  would  not  recognize  him  if  she  saw  him  because  he 
was  so  changed. 

That  day  Mr.  O'Brien  came  up  and  took  me  to  the  Home  Office, 
and  we  spoke  to  them  there,  protesting  about  the  treatment  of  my 
sister-in-law  and  myself,  and  requesting  them  to  let  my  husband's 
relatives  be  near  him.  Of  course  they  refused;  and  they  refused 
about  the  telephone  point  blank.  There  was  no  humanity  in  them 
whatever. 

The  next  morning  was  the  first  time  that  I  collapsed  at  all.  I  had 
kept  up  until  then  and  really  felt  very  well.  But  the  next  morning 
I  felt  ill  and  could  not  go,  and  went  to  bed  again.  And  in  the 
afternoon,  since  I  was  about  the  only  person  that  was  allowed  in 
the  room,  Mr.  O'Brien  took  me  down  in  a  taxi.  I  opened  the  door 
and  the  nurse  was  there,  and  she  said,  "Would  you  wait  outside  a 
few  minutes?"  I  had  not  been  there  at  all  that  day,  and  my 
brother-in-law  had  not  been  there.  I  must  tell  you  that  the  day 
before  I  had  not  been  allowed  in  to  see  him  until  half-past  twelve, 
although  I  had  come  about  ten.  This  day  the  nurse  said,  "Would 
you  wait  just  a  little  while?"  They  had  a  habit  then  of  having  a 
warder  just  inside  the  door.  And  I  opened  the  door  again  in  about 
five  minutes  and  asked  if  I  could  go  in,  and  he  said  he  would  ask 
the  nurse,  and  she  said  no,  she  was  taking  his  temperature.  And  in 
about  five  minutes  more,  about  twenty  minutes  from  the  time  I 
came,  I  sent  in  word  again  if  I  could  see  him,  and  she  said  no,  I 
could  not.  And  so  I  did  not  see  my  husband  again  until  after  his 
death. 


298 

The  next  day  my  brother-in-law  1  was  there,  and  his  chaplain, 
Father  Dominick,  and  they  saw  him.  He  was  dead,  and  he  looked 
like  a  perfect  martyr. 

THE  INQUEST 

Shall  I  tell  you  about  the  inquest? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes. 

The  Witness:  That  was  on  Wednesday.  I  was  in  bed  after  he 
died.  But  they  thought  it  was  important  for  me  to  be  at  the  inquest, 
and  I  went.  I  was  addressed  by  the  coroner,  who  asked  me  my 
address.  I  was  puzzled,  because  we  had  no  address.  We  could  not 
have  a  home.  And  I  said,  "Cork."  And  he  said,  "Cork  is  a  big 
place."  But  that  was  the  best  I  could  do.  He  asked  me  my  hus- 
band's profession,  and  I  said,  "An  officer  of  the  Irish  Republican 
Army."  And  he  said  that  was  no  profession.  Being  English,  he 
could  not  understand  why  a  man  should  have  a  profession  when  he 
was  not  working  for  money.  And  I  said,  "You  have  an  army,  and 
you  have  officers."  And  then  I  think  he  understood,  quite.  Of 
course  I  told  him  that  my  husband  did  not  wish  to  die.  And  the 
specialist  who  had  seen  him,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  had  said  so  too. 
I  was  glad  that  we  called  him  in.  I  told  them  that  as  soon  as  my 
husband  got  out,  he  would  take  food  and  get  better.  He  was  only 
on  hunger  strike,  as  you  know,  as  a  protest  for  being  arrested  ille- 
gally; arrested  by  the  forces  of  England  in  Ireland.  It  was  illegal 
for  them  to  arrest  the  Lord  Mayor,  the  chief  magistrate  of  the  city 
of  Cork.  It  was  against  the  laws  of  the  Irish  Republic  that  they 
should  do  such  a  thing. 

HUSBAND'S  BODY  SECURED  WITH  DIFFICULTY 

When  the  inquest  was  over  our  solicitor  asked  the  Crown  solicitor 
for  my  husband's  body.  And  he  said,  "Where  is  the  funeral  to  take 
place?"  And  my  brother-in-law  said,  "In  Cork,  of  course."  Then 
the  chief  solicitor  said,  "You  cannot  do  that.  You  must  get  a 
permit  to  take  his  body  out  of  England."  And  he  said  we  should 
ask  the  governor.  And  we  asked  the  governor  and  he  referred  us 
to  the  Home  Office.  And  so  Mr.  O'Brien  and  Mr.  MacDonald  and 
I  all  went  to  the  Home  Office.  We  saw  Mr.  Shortt,  and  he  hemmed 
and  hawed  and  all  that,  but  tried  to  evade  telling  us  anything  defi- 
nite. I  never  met  a  man  who  was  a  greater  brute.  He  was  not  a 
gentleman,  anyway  not  in  his  outside  manner.     He  was  just  jesting 


John  MacSwiney. 


299 

and  laughing  all  the  time.  I  said,  "I  understand  that  there  was  a 
technical  difficulty  about  my  husband's  body  coming  with  us,  but 
I  suppose  there  would  be  no  difficulty."  He  said,  "I  know  nothing 
at  all  about  it."  They  all  say  that  over  there.  And  I  said,  "I  sup- 
pose I  can  go  and  take  my  husband's  body."  And  he  then  got 
afraid,  and  he  said,  "Oh,  you  cannot  do  that.  There  may  be  some 
law  against  it."  And  I  said,  "Will  you  find  out  what  the  law  is? 
How  long  will  it  take  you  to  do  it?"  He  said,  "I  cannot  tell  you 
how  long  it  may  take — an  hour  or  more.  I  don't  know."  I  said, 
"Do  you  refuse  to  give  me  my  husband's  body?"  And  he  said, 
"Oh,  no;  I  cannot  say  that." 

One  of  Mr.  Shortt's  secretaries  came  out  with  us.  I  must  say 
that  he  was  a  contrast  to  Mr.  Shortt.  He  gave  me  a  chair  and  asked 
me  if  I  wanted  to  sit  down.  He  said  that  if  we  would  come  back 
in  an  hour,  he  would  see  about  it.  He  said  they  would  make 
arrangements  and  perhaps  give  us  a  special  boat  to  go  to  Dublin. 
Of  course  our  arrangements  had  been  made.  When  Mr.  MacDonald 
saw  him  a  little  later,  Mr.  Shortt  said  it  would  be  all  right,  and  he 
was  sorry  there  had  been  any  delay,  and  of  course  it  had  absolutely 
nothing  to  do  with  him,  and  that  we  could  take  the  body.  My 
sister-in-law  will  tell  you  what  happened  afterwards  and  how  they 
broke  their  word. 

THE  SPIRIT  OF  THE  WOMEN  OF  IRELAND 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Senator  Walsh  would  like  to  ask  you  a  few 
questions. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  what  the  spirit  of  the 
Irish  women  in  Ireland  is  about  the  establishment  of  the  Irish 
Republic. 

A.  Just  what  mine  is  and  what  my  husband's  was.  Of  course 
we  all  want  our  Republic  and  we  want  England  gone,  and  there 
will  not  be  peace  in  the  world  until  we  get  it. 

Q.     To  what  extent  have  the  women  organized  and  taken  action? 

A.  They  have  a  society  called  the  Cumann  na  niBan.  That  is 
a  society  of  women  like  the  Red  Cross.  But  I  think  my  sister-in-law 
can  tell  you  more  about  that  than  I  can.  Especially  after  the  baby 
came,  I  minded  the  baby  myself. 

PRESENT    SUFFERINGS    OF    PEOPLE:    NEED    FOR 
RELIEF 
Q.     Do  you  know  anything  about  the  present  sufferings  of  the 
people,  especially  among  the  women  and  children  in  Ireland? 


300 

A.  Yes,  indeed  I  do.  The  Black-and-Tans — one  of  the  things 
they  did  was  to  prevent  the  people  going  into  the  shops  and  buying 
food.  Also,  they  are  destroying  creameries,  and  that  means  no  milk 
distributed  in  the  towns  for  the  children.  And  of  course  there  has 
always  been  a  great  deal  of  poverty  in  Ireland,  as  I  told  you;  and 
they  are  making  things  a  hundred  times  worse. 

Q.     Is  it  your  opinion  that  relief  is  needed  in  Ireland? 

A.     It  is  absolutely  essential  or  all  the  people  will  die. 

Q.  To  what  extent  was  the  policy  of  starvation  being  carried  out 
when  you  left  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  I  left  Ireland  three  months  ago,  you  see,  and  it  is  since 
then  that  all  that  has  come  in  force.  I  was  ill,  of  course,  and  did 
not  go  back  for  my  husband's  funeral,  but  my  sister-in-law  did,  and 
she  can  tell  you. 

Q.     You  did  not  go  to  your  husband's  funeral? 

A.  No,  I  was  ill.  My  sister-in-law  was  there.  I  was  only  in 
Ireland  for  a  few  days  before  I  came  on.  The  day  I  was  there  they 
shot  into  a  football  match  and  killed  several  people. 

Q.     Were  you  there  at  the  game? 

A.  No.  But  then  in  Cork  it  was  very  much  the  same.  They 
threw  a  bomb  into  a  crowd  and  killed  four  people.  One  young 
man  whom  I  knew,  they  took  both  his  legs  off,  and  he  did  not  die 
until  the  next  day.  And  of  course  ever  so  many  people  were  in- 
jured.    My  sister-in-law  can  tell  you  ever  so  much  more  about  that. 

But  even  before  I  left  for  England  there  were  motor  lorries  and 
armored  cars  going  through  the  streets  so  close  that  often  one  could 
scarcely  pass  between  them.  One  day  while  I  was  on  the  tram  they 
fired.  Nobody  in  the  tram  was  hurt,  but  we  all  saw  them  fire.  And 
these  lorries  full  of  soldiers  have  terrorized  the  countryside.  There 
was  a  Mrs.  Quinn,  a  younger  woman  than  I  am.  She  was  sitting  on 
a  lonely  country  road,  as  I  often  did  when  I  was  in  the  country 
with  the  baby.  She  was  sitting  by  the  road  with  one  baby,  and 
was  going  to  have  another  soon.  And  the  Black-and-Tans  came 
along  the  road  in  a  lorry  and  shot  her.1 

Q.     Had  she  committed  any  offense? 

A.  Oh,  no;  none  whatever.  To  prove  that  there  was  no  one 
with  her,  it  was  some  time  before  a  priest  came.  It  was  a  very 
out-of-the-way  place.     I  felt  that  that  case  might  have  been  mine. 

Q.  Some  one  has  related  that  the  women  of  Ireland  have  steeled 
themselves  to  such  an  extent  that  weeping  is  unknown  among  them. 

A.     Well,  I  never  cry. 

Q.     Is  that  the  general  feeling — that  they  must  steel   themselves 


The  case  of  Mrs.  Ellen  Quinn  of  Gort,  County  Galway. 


301 

A.  Yes.  it  is.  Weeping  is  almost  unknown.  But  there  is  just 
one  thing:  you  know  I  did  not  go  back  to  my  own  country  except 
for  two  or  three  days,  but  I  never  cried  all  through,  not  even  at  the 
end.  But  since  I  have  been  here  I  feel  that  there  is  so  much  sym- 
pathy— I  am  not  speaking  of  sympathy  in  letters  and  what  people 
say  to  me.  but  it  is  what  I  feel  from  everyone.  But  that  sympathy 
has  almost  made  me  cry  here,  and  it  did  yesterday,  and  I  felt  that 
I  might  not  be  able  to  go  through  this  hearing  today. 

PURPOSE  OF  HUSBAND  IN  SACRIFICING  HIS  LIFE 

Q.  Did  your  husband  ever  say  what  he  felt  his  sacrifice  would 
do  for  Ireland?  A.  He  hoped  that  it  would  strengthen  them  still 
further  in  their  struggle  for  independence. 

Q.     That  was  one  of  his  considerations? 

A.  That  was,  of  course,  the  main  consideration  of  his  life.  He 
never  thought  of  anything  else. 

Q.     Where  is  your  baby  now?      A.     In  Cork. 

Q.  Is  she  well?  A.  Very  well.  Would  you  like  to  see  her 
photo?      I've  just  got  it  from  home. 

The  Commission:  Very,  very  much. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Your  husband's  hunger  strike  lasted 
seventy-four  days?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  You  saw  your  husband  the  last  time  how  many  days  before 
his  death?  A.  I  saw  him  on  Saturday.  I  was  not  allowed  in  at  all 
on  Sunday.     And  he  died  on  Monday. 

Q.  On  Monday?  A.  I  was  not  called  at  all  when  he  died.  He 
died  at  six.  and  I  did  not  hear  about  it  until  eight  o'clock. 

Q.  Did  the  doctor  persist  in  feeding  him  when  he  was  uncon- 
scious until  the  very  end?  A.  Oh,  yes,  and  I  think  that  that  really 
killed  him.  It  was  terrible  to  see  him  when  he  was  more  helpless 
than  our  baby  was  when  she  was  born. 

Q.  That  feeding  continued  from  Wednesday,  then,  until 
Monday? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  And  I  know  that  he  was  in  pain,  because  I  could 
see  it  on  his  face.  Another  time  when  I  saw  him  in  great  pain  was 
on  the  tenth  day.  He  said  to  me  that  it  was  not  so  that  people  never 
desired  food  after  the  tenth  day-     He  suffered  right  to  the  end. 

Q.     He  wanted  food  right  to  the  end?     A.    Yes,  indeed. 


302 


HOPE   FOR  RECOGNITION  OF  REPUBLIC   BY 
AMERICA 

I  hope  you  will  all  help  us  win  our  Republic,  because  that  was 
what  my  husband  lived  and  died  for.  And  we  look  on  you  in 
America  very  much  as  our  own  people,  because  you  have  been  all 
so  very  kind  to  us.  I  looked  upon  this  hearing  as  an  ordeal,  but 
it  has  not  been  at  all.  So  I  hope  you  will  all  do  what  you  can 
for  us.  Also  in  the  relief  which  I  think  has  been  started  for  Ire- 
land. But  of  course  the  chief  thing  is  for  Ireland  to  get  her 
freedom. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  think  the  relief  work  is  the  greatest 
thing  that  can  be  done  for  the  Irish  people? 

A.  Yes,  I  do;  but  I  think  recognizing  our  Republic  is  the  most 
immediate.  The  people  who  have  suffered  and  are  suffering  most 
from  hunger  would  choose  that,  too.     It  is  the  most  immediate. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


SECOND  HEARINGS 

Session  Two,  Continued 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  Odd  Fellows'  Hall,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  December  9,  1920.     2:15  P.  M. 

CONTINUATION  OF  TESTIMONY   OF  MISS 
MARY  MACSWINEY 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  proceed  now  if  you  will 
quiet  down  and  take  your  seats. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  believe  you  said 
that  you  had  not  finished  your  remarks  on  some  phases  last  evening 
that  you  would  like  to  begin  now  with.  I  think  Miss  MacSwiney  has 
a  number  of  detail's  that  her  sister-in-law  was  not  familiar  with. 

The  Witness:    What  do  you  want  me  to  begin  with? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  perhaps  it  might  be  well  to  tell  the 
story  of  the  taking  of  your  brother  to  London,  and  what  took  place 
at  Holyhead,  and  all  that. 

The  Witness:  Then  I  am  to  tell  my  part  in  my  brother's  arrest 
and  imprisonment? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes,  it  would  be  well  to  tell  that,  and  about  his 
martyrdom. 

MRS.   MACSWINEY'S   HEALTH   SHATTERED   BY 
PERSECUTION  OF  HUSBAND 

The  Witness:  I  think  it  might  be  well  for  me  to  emphasize  some- 
thing in  my  sister-in-law's  story,  something  that  she  did  not  em- 
phasize very  much.  She  is  very  young,  and  she  was  never  used  to 
fighting  things  out  as  we  were,  and  the  constant  strain  of  her  hus- 
band's being  on  the  run,  as  we  call  it  in  Ireland — that  is,  avoiding 
arrest,  especially  that  terrible  time  when  she  had  to  take  a  little 
baby  of  six  weeks  old  from  the  south  to  the  north  of  Ireland  to  see 
her  father  in  prison,  because  we  knew  he  would  be  arrested  upon 
his  release;  and  the  result  was  that  for  months  before  my  brother's 
final  arrest  she  really  was  in  a  very  precarious  state  of  health.  And 
that  added  very  much  to  his  troubles.  From  Christmas  last  until 
Easter  she  was  so  ill  that  she  was  unable  to  have  her  little  baby 
with  her,  and  the  baby  was  with  us  all  the  time.  Her  husband  went 
constantly  to  see  her  when  he  could.  He  occasionally  spent  a  night 
with  her.    She  was  very  ill  indeed,  but  she  did  the  best  she  could  to 

303 


304 

keep  up.  At  Easter  time  she  was  better.  That  was  just  before  he 
was  made  Lord  Mayor.  You  asked  her  to  state  what  he  said  to  her 
about  that.  I  imagine  he  said  very  little,  because  he  knew  and  we 
all  knew  that  it  would  mean  his  death.  And  naturally  he  did  not 
want  to  distress  her  by  talking  about  that. 

At  Easter  time,  that  is,  very  shortly  after  he  was  made  Lord  Mayor, 
she  got  very  much  better,  and  the  baby  was  taken  up  to  see  her  just 
on  the  Saturday  before  Easter.  At  that  time  my  sister  and  I  had  to 
go  to  Dublin  on  business,  and  we  would  have  been  very  puzzled  to 
know  what  to  do  about  baby  if  her  mother  had  not  got  better.  She 
went  up  to  her  mother  then,  and  was  with  her  until  she  went  to 
England.  But  all  that  time  my  brother  was  on  the  run — you  know 
that  on  the  run  means  evading  arrest. 

VICISSITUDES  OF  MEN  "ON  THE  RUN" 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  May  I  interrupt  to  ask  you  what  per  cent, 
of  young  men  are  on  the  run? 

A.  I  would  say  about  ninety-nine  per  cent., — perhaps  a  hundred 
per  cent,  of  the  young  men  and  some  of  the  old  men. 

Q.  So  that  every  young  man  of  military  age  is,  under  present 
conditions,  unable  to  live  in  his  own  home? 

A.  Yes.  Some  of  them  do  live  there,  but  they  take  their  chances. 
My  oldest  brother,  who  is  an  American  citizen,  is  not  sleeping  at 
home  with  us  simply  because  my  sister  will  not  have  my  brother  in 
the  house.  Generally  one  looks  upon  one's  brother  as  a  protection. 
But  when  you  have  a  house  full  of  women,  you  can  sometimes  es- 
cape from  the  visits  of  the  Black-and-Tans,  who  say  that  they  are 
not  shooting  down  women  and  children.  They  are  doing  it  secretly, 
but  they  have  not  done  it  openly  so  far.  But  if  they  come  to  your 
house  at  night,  they  would  shoot  down  any  man  they  found  there. 
My  brothers  have  been  staying  with  friends.  My  oldest  brother  said 
some  time  ago,  "What  is  the  use  of  sending  me  to  So-and-So's  house, 
for  they  are  all  on  the  run  too,  and  it  seems  to  me  that  all  the  men 
in  Ireland  are  sleeping  in  one  another's  houses."  But  it  saves  them, 
because  when  the  Black-and-Tans  come  to  a  house  and  find  a  man 
and  ask  him  his  name,  and  he  does  not  happen  to  be  the  man  they 
are  looking  for,  they  often  do  not  take  that  man,  and  go  away  quite 
satisfied. 

Another  point  is  why  we  are  not  afraid  during  the  day.  My 
sister  explained  that.  My  brother  always  had  a  bodyguard  during 
the  day,  and  they  did  not  arrest  him,  and  would  not  ordinarily 
arrest  any  other  man  during  the  day  because  they  would  not  want  to 


305 

be  recognized.  That  is  one  reason.  Another  is  that  deeds  of  dark- 
ness are  always  done  in  the  dark.  We  never  fear  arrest  during 
the  day.      It   is  always  at   night  that  they   conic. 

I  can  also  tell  you  that  a  couple  of  nights  when  the  searching 
seemed  to  slacken  a  little,  my  brother  was  in  a  very  great  need 
of  rest,  and  he  said  he  would  sleep  at  home.  I  would  like  to  em- 
phasize that  "at  home"  always  means  our  home,  because,  although 
they  had  two  houses  after  they  were  married,  he  was  never  able 
to  sleep  at  home.  On  a  couple  of  occasions  he  was  very  tired  and 
said,  "I  must  absolutely  have  a  night's  rest,  and  I  must  risk  it." 
One  night  when  he  decided  to  risk  it,  at  half-past  eleven  there  was 
a  knock  at  the  door.  You  can  imagine  our  state  of  mind  when  at 
that  hour  there  was  a  knock  at  the  door,  and  we  thought  it  was 
the  military.  That  particular  night  it  happened  not  to  be  the  mili- 
tary. It  was  one  of  his  Volunteers  who  came  to  tell  him  that  the 
enemy  were  on  his  track  and  he  would  have  to  go.  And  he  had 
to  get  up  and  go  at  that  time  of  night.  Another  night  when  he 
and  his  bodyguard  ventured  to  stay  in  the  house,  a  similar  mes- 
sage came.  We  were  sure  it  was  the  military,  and  they  got  ready 
to  defend  themselves.  They  were  not  going  to  be  taken  alive.  We 
went  to  the  door,  and  we  discovered  it  was  another  Volunteer  sol- 
dier with  the  message  that  they  were  after  him.  But  the  two,  my 
brother  and  his  bodyguard,  the  two  of  them  were  there;  and  if 
they  had  come  and  trapped  them,  they  would  have  sold  their 
lives  dearly. 

The  result  of  it  was  that  he  got  no  rest.  He  did  not  try  to  stay 
at  home  a  third  time.  That  was  the  kind  of  a  life  they  were  living. 
He  always  went  about  guarded.  All  his  meals  were  taken  at  our 
house.  We  are  quite  near,  not  more  than  six  minutes'  walk  from 
the  city  hall.  He  w-as  able  to  come  over  the  bridges  of  the  north 
and  south  channels  quietly  and  take  his  meals.  His  last  meal  there 
was  for  tea  at  half-past  five  on  the  afternoon  of  his  arrest.  And 
then  he  went  to  the  city  hall  and  was  arrested. 

Senator  Walsh:  When  I  interrupted  you,  you  were  speaking 
about  the  health  of  your  sister-in-law,  and  you  were  talking  about 
vour  brother  being  on  the  run. 

The  Witness:  I  don't  think  I  need  to  say  any  more  about  my 
sister-in-law's  health,  except  just  that.  She  really  did  have  a  very 
hard  time  of  it.  and  she  broke  down  also  just  after  the  inquest. 
She  broke  down  and  was  obliged  to  stay  in  London,  as  I  said. 
There  is  a  limit  to  human  endurance,  and  some  of  us  have  had  to 
go  quite  close  to  it.  She  could  not  do  anything  more  for  him,  and 
I  think  she  was  too  ill  to  go  back  to  Cork  and  face  thinsrs  there. 


306 

SYMPATHY  HARDER  TO  BEAR  THAN  CRUELTY 

There  is  another  thing.  It  is  harder  to  face  sympathy  some- 
times than  to  face  brutality.  One  of  the  senators  asked  if  it  is 
true  that  the  women  of  Ireland  have  steeled  themselves  against 
tears.  While  we  were  in  England  it  was  a  point  of  honor  to  us 
that  the  enemy  should  never  see  us  cry.  It  does  not  mean  that  the 
women  of  Ireland  do  not  have  to  cry  sometimes  in  secret.  And 
what  my  sister-in-law  told  you  is  true.  We  have  been  nearer  to 
tears  since  we  came  to  America  than  any  time  since  we  have 
been  in  England.  That  is  why  I  say  that  sympathy  is  often  harder 
to  bear  than  cruelty. 

Our  tormentors  in  England  gave  us  the  very  great  privilege  of 
being  with  him  from  early  morning  to  night,  and  my  youngest 
brother  stayed  with  him  all  night.  That  was  a  very  great  privi- 
lege, but  we  knew  that  it  was  not  given  to  us  for  kindness.  It 
was  given  to  us  because  they  thought  that  no  body  of  women 
could  go  through  that  without  breaking  down,  and  if  we  would 
break  down,  it  might  cause  my  brother  to  break  down.  That  was 
the  reason  for  allowing  us  to  see  my  brother.  And  it  was  very, 
very  trying  to  see  him  dying  by  inches. 

In  telling  you  my  brother's  story,  I  would  like  to  confine  myself 
to  his  prison  experiences  from  the  point  of  view  of  Ireland  and 
not  the  personal  point  of  view.  I  want  to  deal  with  the  English 
propaganda  to  discredit  him  and  to  discredit  Ireland's  cause.  And 
I  will  ask  you  to  allow  me  to  leave  the  personal  side  of  it  out  of 
the  question. 

LORD  MAYOR  ARRESTED  WITHOUT  CHARGE; 
EVIDENCE  MANUFACTURED  LATER 

When  my  brother  was  arrested,  he  was  arrested  on  no  particular 
charge. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  This  was  his  last  arrest? 

A.  This  was  his  last  arrest.  The  charge  was  manufactured 
after  the  arrest.  That  was  quite  usual.  They  always  manufacture 
the  evidence.  But  I  will  come  back  to  that  later  on.  Perhaps 
there  is  one  particular  thing  I  had  better  tell  you  now.  They  have 
very  often  manufactured  evidence  in  this  way:  they  have  sent 
anonymous  letters  to  the  houses  of  people  which  they  were  going 
to  raid,  addressed  to  the  person  they  wanted  to  implicate.  These 
anonymous  letters  were  very  often  incitements  to  shoot  policemen, 
and  various  things  like  that.     If  these  letters  were  found,  then  they 


307 

were  immediately  brought  up  as  evidence.  Now,  this  has  hap- 
pened in  several  instances.  On  one  particular  morning  the  Countess 
de  Markievicz  got  by  the  first  post  a  letter  with  the  copy  of  a 
police  document  which  was  of  very  great  importance.  She  was 
clever  enough, — we  all  have  to  keep  our  wits  about  us, — to  put 
it  straight  in  the  fire.  A  half  hour  later  the  house  was  raided,  and 
every  letter — every  bit  of  paper  was  examined.  They  were  look- 
ing for  that  document  which  they  themselves  had  sent. 

On  Thursday  my  brother  was  arrested,  on  Thursday  night  at 
seven  o'clock.  On  that  afternoon,  by  the  afternoon  post,  which 
comes  between  half -past  four  and  five,  a  letter  came  addressed 
to  The  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  care  of  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  Bel- 
grave  Place,  Cork.  There  was  also  an  indication  that  I  might  open 
it.  0  yes,  it  was  addressed  to  the  Lord  Mayor  or  to  Miss  Mary 
MacSwiney,  Belgrave  Place,  Cork.  That  came  about  a  half  hour 
before  my  brother  came  home  to  tea.  I  opened  it.  It  was  in  a 
disguised  handwriting,  and  purported  to  be  from  a  Volunteer  in 
Tipperary  saying  that  the  Volunteers  in  Tipperary  were  very  lax 
in  the  people  they  allowed  to  go  about,  giving  details  about  a 
certain  policeman  named  Quinn,  whom  this  letter  said  was  causing 
a  great  deal  of  trouble,  and  urging  that  without  further  delay 
this  man  should  be  shot.  I  read  the  letter  twice  over.  It  was  an 
anonymous  letter.  I  tore  it  up  and  burnt  it.  When  my  brother 
came  in,  I  told  him  what  had  happened.  These  things  are  so 
much  matters  of  course  that  there  was '  not  much  more  comment 
made  about  it. 

They  arrested  him  at  seven  o'clock.  At  midnight  that  night 
two  military  officers  and  a  large  body  of  men  came  to  our  house 
to  raid  it.  They  were  sent  for  that  letter.  They  wanted  it  for 
evidence  against  my  brother.  That  is  the  sort  of  thing  that  we 
have  to  put  up  with.  That  is  the  sort  of  wicked  propaganda — they 
manufacture  that  propaganda.  If  that  letter  had  been  found  in 
my  house — because  they  knew  his  letters  always  went  there — if 
that  letter  had  been  found  he  would  have  been  charged,  not  with 
the  charges  that  were  preferred  against  him,  but  on  being  the 
leader  of  a  conspiracy  to  murder  policemen.  And  they  searched 
my  house  very  thoroughly  indeed  that  night  to  get  evidence  of 
his  complicity  in  the  murder  of  policemen.  They  did  their  best 
to  manufacture  it  beforehand.  And  I  would  like  to  emphasize 
to  you  how  we  have  to  keep  our  wits  sharpened  to  counter  such 
propaganda.  All  through  my  brother's  hunger  strike,  we  have  had 
to  keep,  as  it  were,  two  sides  of  us  alive:  we  have  had  the  per- 
sonal sorrow,  on  which  I  am  not  going  to  touch, — I  don't  want  to 


308 

mention  that;  we  have  also  had  to  fight  day  and  night  the  Eng- 
lish propaganda  that  was  carried  on  to  discredit  him  with  the  world. 
And  I  want,  if  you  will  have  patience  with  me,  to  stress  that  in 
detail. 

BEGINNING  OF  HUNGER  STRIKE 

He  was  arrested  on  the  twelfth  of  August,  and  kept  in  Cork 
jail.  My  sister-in-law  told  you  that  I  went  down  to  see  her  on 
Saturday.  I  saw  him  in  Cork  jail  that  morning,  and  that  was 
the  first  intimation  I  had  that  he  was  hunger  striking.  He  looked 
very  bad  then,  although  it  was  only  his  third  day.  On  Saturday  I 
went  down  to  see  her  and  to  look  after  the  baby.  She  decided  she 
would  not  go  until  Monday  morning.  On  Sunday  morning  I  was 
awakened  by  a  great  friend  of  ours,  a  gentleman  who  lives  across 
the  water,  who  came  down  to  tell  us  that  he  had  information 
that  my  brother  was  to  be  court-martialed  at  eleven  o'clock  the 
next  morning.  That  information  was  not  given  to  us  officially, 
but  we  found  it  out.  She  decided  to  go  up  at  once,  and  I  stayed 
below. 

SPEECH   OF  LORD   MAYOR  AT  TRIAL 

Therefore  I  was  not  present  at  the  trial,  but  I  know  that  the 
speech  he  made  at  the  trial  stressed  some  points  that  were  not 
brought  out  in  the  speech  she  read  to  you.  He  used  practically 
the  same  terms  that  he  used  in  his  speech  upon  his  inauguration 
as  Lord  Mayor.  But  he  said  that  he  was  really  the  person  who 
should  be  trying  them,  and  he  told  those  military  officers,  with 
respect  to  the  charge  that  they  emphasized  particularly,  the  charge 
that  he  had  a  police  code,  that  he  was  the  only  person  in  that 
city  who  should  have  a  police  code,  and  anybody  else  in  that  city 
who  had  a  police  code  without  his  permission  was  guilty  of  an  il- 
legal act,  and  it  was  his  business  to  try  them.  They  said  they 
found  the  code  in  his  desk.  That  was  a  lie.  That  was  an  absolute 
lie.  The  code  at  the  time  of  his  arrest  was  in  the  possession  of 
somebody  else.  That  person  did  not  have  time  to  destroy  it,  and  he 
stuck  it  in  a  place  that  he  thought  might  escape  the  attention  of 
the  military.  It  did  not  escape  their  attention.  They  captured  it. 
They  captured  it  outside  the  city  hall  in  the  yard.  They  did  not 
capture  it  in  the  city  hall  at  all.  But  they  took  it  at  once  and 
put  it  in  the  Lord  Mayor's  desk,  and  said  they  found  it  there. 
That  was  a  lie.  However,  that  made  no  difference.  The  attitude 
my  brother  took  was,  as  he  said,  "I  accept  absolute  responsibility 
for  that  code,  and  I  am  the  only  one  in  the  city  who  is  entitled 
to  have  it." 


309 

The  other  two  charges,  that  he  had  a  uniform  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publican Army  and  that  he  was  the  presiding  officer  of  a  body 
that  had  sworn  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann,  were  due,  of  course,  to 
the  English  attitude  toward  their  authority  in  Ireland.  And  their 
right  to  assume  that  authority  he  denied  absolutely. 

TOLERANT  ATTITUDE  OF  LORD  MAYOR  TOWARD 
POLITICAL  OPPONENTS 

I  do  not  think  there  is  anything  more  I  want  to  say  about  that, 
but  I  want  to  read  one  sentence  of  his  speech  upon  his  inaugura- 
tion as  Lord  Mayor.  He  says,  in  speaking  of  his  comrade  who  had 
just  been  murdered'  (he  speaks  of  a  meeting  that  was  held  im- 
mediately after  the  election),  "I  would  recall  some  of  my  words  at 
our  first  meeting  after  his  election  as  Lord  Mayor.  I  realize  that 
most  of  us  in  the  minority  here  were  loyal  citizens  of  the  Irish 
Republic."  I  By  the  minority  he  means  those  who  are  Unionists 
and  Nationalists  in  the  Corporation. )  "I  realize,"  he  said,  "that 
most  of  us  in  the  minority  here  were  loyal  citizens  of  the 
Irish  Republic,  if  the  English  occupation  did  not  threaten  your 
lives.  But  you  lacked  the  spirit  and  the  hope  to  join  with  us 
in  the  fight  to  complete  the  work  already  so  well  begun."  That 
is  our  attitude  toward  the  minority.  We  know  they  would  be 
with  us  if  some  of  them  were  not  so  much  afraid  of  their  lives. 
We  also  know  that  many  Unionists  are  now  coming  over  to  us 
in  large  numbers.  There  is  an  old  saying  that  nothing  succeeds 
like  success.  And  we  have  been  so  successful  that  those  who 
used  to  be  Unionists  are  now  coming  over  to  support  the  Republic. 

And  another  sentence  he  said:  "The  shining  hope  of  our  time  is 
that  the  great  majority  of  our  people  is  now  strong  in  that  faith." 
(The  faith  that  will  endure  to  the  end  is  what  he  means.)  "To 
you,  gentlemen  of  the  minority,  I  would  address  a  word.  You 
seem  to  be  hypnotized  by  that  evil — the  usurpation  which  calls 
itself  self-government.  I  ask  you  again  to  take  courage  and  hope. 
It  seems  to  me,  and  I  do  not  say  it  to  hurt  you,  that  you  have  a 
very  lively  faith  in  the  power  of  the  devil,  and  very  little  faith 
in  the  power  of  God." 

I  quote  these  few  sentences  to  show  you  what  our  spirit  is 
toward  the  dwindling  minority  who  uphold  British  rule  in  Ireland. 
They  do  not  uphold  it  because  they  love  it.  They  uphold  it  be- 
cause they  fear  it.     But  they  will  learn  what  we  have  long  known, 


JHis    friend   and   predecessor,    Lord    Mayor   Thomas    MacCurtain.      See 
index. 


310 

that  the  only  thing  one  should  be  afraid  of  in  Ireland  today  is  to 
be  afraid  of  being  afraid. 

LAST  VISIT  WITH  BROTHER  BEFORE  HIS 
DEPORTATION 

When  my  sister-in-law  came  up  to  Cork  on  Monday,  after  my 
brother's  arrest,  I  remained  in  Youghal.  I  did  not  know  then 
she  was  coming  down,  but  I  got  a  telegram  to  catch  the  four 
o'clock  train  up  to  Cork.  The  gentleman  who  brought  the  tele- 
gram also  offered  to  stay  there  and  look  after  baby  until  my  sister- 
in-law  got  back.  She  met  me  at  the  station  and  told  me  that  the 
trial  was  over,  and  probably  he  would  be  deported  that  night,  and 
that  I  had  better  go  up  at  once,  and  that  a  special  permission 
had  been  given  for  me  to  see  him.  I  went  up  to  Cork,  arriving 
there  about  six  o'clock.  My  sister  had  by  that  time  received  the 
letter  from  General  Strickland,  commander  of  the  British  forces, 
that  I  and  my  younger  brother,  who  had  not  seen  him  during  the 
day,  might  see  my  brother.  We  went  up  to  the  barracks.  He  was 
sitting  in  one  of  the  large  rooms, — evidently  an  officer's  bedroom, 
and  he  was  sitting  there  wrapped  up  in  a  big  coat  and  evidently 
feeling  very  badly.  I  asked  when  he  was  to  be  sent  away.  The 
military  officers  said  they  did  not  know.  Of  course,  they  knew, 
but  they  had  orders  not  to  tell  us.  I  said,  "This  thing  is  rather 
important  to  us.  My  brother  has  only  the  clothes  he  has  on.  If 
you  are  going  to  send  him  out  of  the  country,  we  want  to  send 
him  a  suitcase  with  clothes."  They  said  they  did  not  know;  they 
could  not  tell  us;  but  they  thought  it  would  be  wiser  to  send  him 
the  suitcase.  My  sister  went  down  there  then  and  had  a  suitcase  of 
clothes  and  some  things  sent  him.  We  tried  hard  to  find  where  he 
was  to  be  sent,  but  we  could  not  find  out.  But  the  officers  there 
tried  to  be  as  nice  to  us  as  they  could,  and  we  stayed  there  until 
half-past  eight  o'clock.  That  meant  we  could  not  see  him  again. 
So  we  stayed  there  until  half-past  eight  and  then  we  went  away. 

The  next  thing  was,  as  I  told  you,  that  at  midnight  the  military 
searched  our  house,  and  I  think  they  got  very  tired  of  it  before 
long,  because  our  house  happens  to  be  a  school,  and  all  the  docu- 
ments of  the  school  for  the  past  four  years  were  there,  and  I  told 
them  they  had  better  take  up  their  lodgings  there  for  a  fortnight 
if  they  expected  to  search  all  these  things.  They  searched  all  the 
correspondence,  however,  but  they  did  not  find  the  letter  that  I 
had  received  that  evening  and  had  burned.  That  letter,  of  course, 
was  sent  by  the  British  secret  service  department. 


311 

NECESSITY  OF  SCRUPULOUS  ACCURACY  IN 
STATEMENTS 

On  Friday  we  learned  that  he  was  at  the  miltary  barracks,  but 
we  did  not  know  what  they  were  going  to  do  with  him.  On  Sat- 
urday he  was  sent  to  the  Cork  jail.  On  Tuesday  he  was  sent  over 
to  England.  I  am  going  to  tell  you  he  did  not  go  in  a  submarine, 
but  in  a  British  destroyer.  My  sister-in-law  said  a  submarine.  I 
am  going  to  correct  it,  because  if  I  did  not  mention  that  it  was 
a  destroyer  and  not  a  submarine,  you  would  have  all  the  pro- 
British  papers  in  Britain  and  America  crying  out — they  would  take 
that  one  slip  and  would  say  that  it  was  all  a  lie — that  every  word 
of  the  statement  we  have  given  here  is  a  lie.  That  is  why  I  want 
to  be  absolutely  exact.  That  is  why  I  want  to  make  this  small 
correction,  because  from  one  small  slip  that  is  a  small  inaccuracy, 
they  would  seek  to  discredit  everything  that  we  have  said  here,  and 
would  try  to  destroy  what  might  be  very  important  for  Ireland. 
It  was  not  a  submarine.  It  was  a  British  destroyer.  But,  as  Arch- 
bishop Mannix  has  told  us,  they  are  not  very  comfortable  things  to 
travel  on.  They  are  not  ocean  liners  meant  for  the  comfort  and 
convenience  of  their  passengers.  They  are  designed  for  the  maxi- 
mum of  use. 

Chairman  Howe:  Miss  MacSwiney,  if  you  will,  just  stop  there. 
We  are  required  to  give  up  this  hall  at  one  o'clock,  unfortunately. 
The  meeting  will  be  adjourned,  and  the  hearings  will  be  con- 
tinued at  two-fifteen  this  afternoon  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette. 

(Adjournment  12:57  P.  M.) 

Hotel  LaFayette,  2:28  P.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:    The  hearings  will  begin  now. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Will  you  please  continue,  Miss  MacSwiney? 
I  think  you  were  telling  us  about  taking  your  brother  over  to 
England  in  a  destroyer. 

THE  VIGIL  IN  BRIXTON  PRISON 

The  Witness :  That  was  on  the  night  of  Monday  or  Tuesday  morn- 
ing. I  think  he  left  Cork  about  four  o'clock  Tuesday  morning. 
At  least  he  was  taken  away  during  the  curfew  hours.  And  then 
we  wired  the  authorities  to  know  where  he  was,  and  we  did  not 
get  any  information.  Meanwhile  we  wired  friends  in  England 
to  learn  where  he  was.  Mr.  Arthur  O'Brien  put  his  machinery  to 
work  to  know  where  he   was.     And  he  wired  us   that  he  was   at 


312 

Brixton.  That  was  Thursday  morning.  The  authorities  also  found 
out  that  he  was  over  at  Brixton.  But  I  was  half-way  over  when 
they  wired.  I  left  Cork  immediately  and  arrived  in  London  Fri- 
day morning,  the  twentieth  of  August,  and  I  saw  my  brother  that 
day.  My  sister-in-law  arrived  Saturday,  and  it  was  arranged  that 
as  soon  as  the  situation  got  so  dangerous  that  my  brother  was  on 
the  point  of  death,  that  I  should  send  word  to  my  sister  and 
younger  brother  to  come  at  once.  We  sent  telegrams  regularly 
twice  a  day  home,  and  also  telegrams  were  sent  to  the  City  Hall 
to  tell  how  he  was.  When  I  saw  my  brother  then  on  Friday,  the 
twentieth,  I  did  not  think  he  could  live  a  week.  Dr.  Higson,  the 
doctor  of  the  prison  who  was  then  in  charge,  told  me  he  would 
give  me  word  when  my  brother  was  at  the  point  of  death.  He 
told  me  he  would  send  me  word  in  time  to  advise  my  sister.  On 
the  following  Tuesday  he  had  a  very  bad  time,  and  he  was  so 
seriously  ill  that  I  did  not  wait  any  longer,  but  wired  my  brother 
and  sister  to  come,  too,  and  not  wait  any  longer.  When  they  did 
come  he  collapsed  quite.  It  was  a  very  bad  time.  As  you  were 
told  in  the  beginning,  about  the  tenth  day  is  a  very  bad  time. 

Then  he  seemed  to  remain  stationary.  Then  when  it  was  about 
half  over  he  got  very  great  pains,  a  kind  of  neuritis.  And  then 
at  the  end  time,  there  was  nothing  but  very  great  weakness.  You 
can  understand  what  his  sufferings  were,  and  therefore  I  do  not 
want  to  linger  on  that  point. 


ENGLISH  PROPAGANDISTS  MISCALCULATE  THE 
EFFECTS  OF  LORD  MAYOR'S  IMPRISONMENT 

I  want  to  speak  of  the  English  anti-Irish  propaganda  on  the 
whole  situation.  We  were  allowed,  as  I  said  this  morning,  un- 
limited access  to  my  brother,  even  to  the  extent  of  allowing  my 
youngest  brother  to  remain  in  the  prison  all  night  long.  That 
seemed  very  kind,  but  I  believe  it  was  done  not  so  much  to  be  kind 
to  us  as  to  break  my  brother  down.  England,  from  the  point 
of  view  of  getting  a  victim,  got  a  very  bad  one  in  the  case  of  my 
brother.  The  doctors  were  obliged  to  report  that  forcible  feeding 
would  not  do  in  his  case.  They  sometimes  try  forcible  feeding  so 
the  prisoner  will  not  starve  himself  to  death.  Forcible  feeding  in 
my  brother's  case  would  only  have  accelerated  his  death.  On  ac- 
count of  an  attack  of  pleurisy  in  his  infancy  he  had  a  weak  spot 
in  his  lungs,  and  therefore  forcible  feeding  would  only  have 
hastened  his  death. 

The   second    mistake    England    made    was    the   bringing    of   him 


313 

from  Cork  to  London.  They  dare  not  forcibly  feed  a  man  in  Cork 
now,  but  they  thought  they  could  do  it  in  London.  If  they  had 
kept  him  in  Cork  I  am  quite  sure  they  would  have  kept  the  knowl- 
edge of  what  was  going  on  from  the  world;  and  probably  you 
would  never  have  heard  of  it,  and  we  would  not  have  received  your 
invitation  to  come  and  testify  about  the  wrongs  of  Ireland.  By 
taking  him  to  London,  he  was  in  the  spot  where  newspaper  re- 
porters from  all  quarters  of  the  world  are.  And  the  result  was 
that  the  reasons  of  that  hunger  strike  were  heralded  all  over  the 
world,  and  did  more  good  for  Ireland  than  anything  that  has 
happened  for  a  hundred  and  fifty  years.  It  did  far  more  good 
for  Ireland  than  Easter  Week  did,  for  this  reason :  many  people 
said  it  was  not  an  opportune  time  for  us  to  strike  at  England. 
We  were  stabbing  England  in  the  back,  we  were  told.  France 
was  very  angry  with  us,  and  France  has  always  been  a  friend  of 
ours.  And  France  to  this  day  has  not  forgiven  us.  We  are  very 
sorrv,  for  France  has  always  been  a  friend  of  ours,  but  we  cannot 
help  it.  France  would  take  care  of  herself  in  the  same  way.  That 
is  one  reason  why  Easter  week  did  not  help  us  so  much  with  the 
outside  world.  It  was  not  so  good  a  propaganda  for  us  as  my 
brother's  death  was. 

And  then  again,  it  would  not  have  done  so  much  good  for  Ire- 
land if  they  had  not  taken  him  to  London  and  his  family  had 
not  moved  over  there  and  settled  there  with  him.  England  was 
very  much  surprised  at  the  great  wave  of  sympathy  beginning  to 
go  throughout  the  whole  world,  and  then  she  began  to  try  to 
counter  that  propaganda  in  every  way  she  could.  The  papers  be- 
gan to  say  that  the  doctors  were  feeding  him;  that  they  were  giv- 
ing him  proteids  in  his  medicine.  I  called  the  doctors'  attention 
to  it.  and  they  pooh-poohed  it  and  said,  "Who  cares  what  the  news- 
papers say?  Who  pays  any  attention  to  it?"  Those  are  the  words 
of  the  English  doctors,  gentlemen  of  the  press,  and  not  mine. 

ATTITUDE   OF   PRISON   DOCTORS   TOWARD    LORD 

MAYOR 

When  we  arrived  there  the  only  doctor  in  charge  was  Dr.  Hig- 
son,  the  second  doctor.  A  little  later  Dr.  Griffiths,  the  senior  doc- 
tor, came  on.  A  little  later  on  the  junior  doctor  came  on,  and  our 
little  contact  with  him  showed  him  the  worst  of  the  three.  Dr. 
Griffiths  was  a  very  capable  man,  and  the  willing  tool — I  say  it 
deliberately — the  willing  tool  of  the  Home  Office  in  everything  they 
did.     Dr.  Higson  was  a  very  humane  man.  whose  attitude  showed 


314 

that  he  sympathized  with  my  brother,  but  he  was  helpless.  One 
day  in  talking  with  him  and  he  was  pointing  out  his  helplessness, 
I  told  him  one  position  he  might  take,  although  I  knew  he  would 
not.  He  could  have  come  out  and  condemned  his  government  and 
resigned  his  position  for  its  inhumanity.  Of  course  he  would 
not  do  it.  That  was  asking  an  Englishman  to  be  heroic.  Of  Dr. 
Higson  I  have  nothing  to  say  but  good.  He  made  our  time  at 
Brixton  as  comfortable  as  he  could,  and  I  do  not  blame  him  for 
anything  that  happened.  His  only  fault  was  that  his  courage  was 
not  equal  to  his  heart. 

The  third  doctor  I  have  nothing  to  say  about.  I  had  very  little 
conversation  with  him.  The  only  real  question  I  think  I  ever 
put  to  him  was  on  the  day  when  my  sister  and  I  were  locked 
out  of  the  prison,  and  the  Home  Office  said  it  was  by  the  doctor's 
orders.  I  spoke  to  each  doctor  individually.  I  said,  "Doctor,  the 
Home  Office  says  that  the  doctors  are  responsible  for  our  being 
denied  permission  to  see  my  brother,"  and  I  asked  him,  "Are  you 
the  responsible  one?"  And  he  answered,  "Am  I?  Perhaps."  That 
was  all,  but  it  was  given  with  a  sneer  and  a  toss  of  the  head  that 
showed  him  to  be  the  most  contemptible  creature  on  the  face  of 
the  earth. 

SECRET    ANALYSIS    OF    MEDICINE    FOILS    PROPA- 
GANDA THAT  BROTHER  RECEIVED  LIQUID 
FOOD 

I  want  to  deal  now  with  propaganda.  I  asked  the  doctors  to 
make  a  statement  that  they  were  not  putting  food  in  my  brother's 
medicine,  and  they  refused.  That  was  getting  such  world-wide 
publicity — the  newspaper  reporters  from  all  over  the  world  were 
coming  to  us  to  know  if  that  was  possible,  and  the  belief  was 
getting  so  general  that  it  was  being  done  that  we  had  to  counter- 
act it  somehow. 

I  am  going  to  give  you  now  a  piece  of  information  that  is  given 
for  the  first  time  to  anybody.  We  stole  some  of  the  medicine.  We 
abstracted  a  dose  of  the  medicine  from  under  the  very  eyes  of  the 
jailer,  and  we  had  it  analyzed.  The  analysis  proved  that  there 
was  absolutely  nothing  in  the  medicine  but  just  what  the  doctors 
had  told  us  it  was, — a  purgative  medicine  to  keep  the  body  func- 
tioning in  an  orderly  way  and  to  act  simply  as  any  ordinary 
medicine.  There  was  absolutely  no  trace  of  food.  The  analysis 
was  given.  There  was  only  one  thing  in  the  analysis  that  seemed 
to   puzzle  the   analyst.     That  was   that  he   detected   the   traces   of 


315 

alcohol,  as  if  there  had  been  perfume  in  the  bottle.  That  was 
exactly  what  it  was.  It  was  a  small  eau-de-cologne  bottle  in  which 
we  took  the  sample  of  medicine  from  the  prison.  This  is  the  first 
time  that  this  is  given  to  anybody,  even  to  our  own  intimate  friends. 
Only  my  brother  knew  of  it,  and  my  sister  and  myself.  For  a 
long  time  even  my  sister-in-law  did  not  know  about  it,  because 
we  wanted  to  keep  it  very  secret.  Now,  you  will  ask,  if  it  was  so 
secret  as  all  that,  what  use  was  it  to  us?  As  it  was,  we  could  not 
let  it  be  known  that  we  had  analyzed  the  medicine,  or  we  would 
have  been  all  turned  out  of  the  prison.  So  having  satisfied  our- 
selves that  they  were  not  playing  any  tricks,  we  set  about  satis- 
fying the  public.  We  got  the  most  eminent  doctor  that  we  could. 
We  asked  permission  from  the  Home  Office  to  have  a  physician  of 
our  own  go  in  and  see  my  brother.  And  we  got  that  specialist  to 
go  in  and  see  him.  We  did  not  tell  him  anything  about  that 
analysis,  needless  to  say.  We  told  him  to  examine  the  medicine, 
that  we  wanted  to  be  satisfied  that  the  doctors  were  not  putting 
proteids  in  the  medicine  they  were  giving  my  brother.  We  asked 
that  doctor  to  go  there  for  another  reason.  There  was  a  rumor 
that  my  brother,  being  on  the  point  of  death,  was  to  be  moved  to 
a  nursing  home;  that  the  authorities  were  afraid  to  have  him  die 
in  the  prison,  and  wanted  him  to  be  moved  outside.  We  wanted 
independent  medical  testimony  that  he  was  not  able  to  be  moved. 
They  gave  us  that  permission.  I  think  their  idea  was  that  they 
wanted  to  represent  to  the  outside  world  that  they  wished  to  be 
as  nice  as  they  possibly  could  to  us  and  they  did  not  want  to  refuse 
us  anything  that  they  could  possibly  grant.  Our  purpose  in  hav- 
ing the  doctor  was  to  make  a  public  statement  that  my  brother 
was  not  getting  any  food  in  his  medicine.  We  knew  from  the 
analysis,  but  we  wanted  a  specialist  to  make  the  statement.  The 
doctor  making  the  examination  was  very  nervous  indeed  when  he 
went  in,  but  on  coming  out  the  first  thing  that  he  said  to  all  of  us 
was,  "The  Lord  Mayor  does  not  want  to  die.  He  has  no  intention 
of  committing  suicide."  Of  course  we  knew  he  did  not  want  to 
die.  What  he  wanted  was  freedom.  The  doctor  came  away  from 
his  interview  with  my  brother  evidently  with  a  very  high  opinion 
of  his  character  and  principles.  And  I  told  him  straight  out  that 
we  wanted  the  assurance  that  the  doctors  were  not  feeding  him 
secretly,  and  he  gave  us  that  assurance  and  said  we  might  trust  the 
doctors  because  they  were  all  honorable  men.  And,  of  course,  we 
had  attained  our  object  as  far  as  the  newspapers  were  concerned; 
and  from  that  day  on  there  was  not  a  hint  in  any  of  the  English 
papers  that  the  doctors  were  feeding  him  secretly. 


316 


INSINUATION   THAT   RELATIVES   SECRETLY 
FED  HIM 

That  disposed  of  that,  but  they  next  said  that  his  relatives  were 
feeding  him  secretly.  Of  course,  they  could  not  say  openly  that 
we  were  doing  so.  They  said — of  course,  even  the  doctors  said, 
'"The  food  is  always  there,  and  he  can  eat  at  any  time."  And  the 
curious  thing  was  that  they  changed  the  food  to  meet  his  condi- 
tion. At  first  there  was  chicken  and  eggs  and  the  like.  And  as 
he  got  weaker  afterwards  they  brought  him  chicken  broth,  meat 
essence,  milk  with  brandy,  and  the  things  he  would  naturally  get 
if  he  would  take  food.  And  we  were  invited  to  give  them  to  him. 
Then  began  the  insinuations  in  the  papers  that  we  were  giving  him 
food  secretly.  We  never  gave  him  food,  but  we  were  giving  him 
water  whenever  he  asked  for  it.  Sometimes  he  would  say,  "Give 
me  some  water,"  and  we  would  go  and  get  him  some  water,  even 
when  the  nurse  was  in  the  room.  But  from  the  day  that  this 
propaganda  began  that  we  were  feeding  him  secretly,  we  would 
not  give  him  the  water;  we  would  let  the  nurse  get  him  the  water. 
We  had  to  watch  like  lynxes  from  beginning  to  end.  Every  step 
held  a  trap  for  us.  And  all  that  was  to  counteract  the  deed 
that  was  creating  so  much  sympathy  for  Ireland  all  over  the  world. 

INSIDIOUS  APPEALS  TO  GET  BROTHER  TO  TAKE 

FOOD 

And  then  there  were  the  constant  appeals  not  to  let  such  a 
good  man  die,  that  his  life  would  be  so  much  better  for  Ireland 
than  his  death.  Some .  of  these  appeals  pretended  to  be  from 
friends  of  Ireland  who  told  us  what  a  great  mistake  we  were 
making  in  letting  him  starve  to  death;  others  were  from  people  who 
abused  us  shamefully  for  letting  him  die.  Such  was  their  propa- 
ganda,— which  I  know  you  will  not  ask  me  to  elaborate.  My 
brother  was  told  that  it  was  hard  for  his  wife  and  sisters  to  see 
him  suffer,  and  for  their  sake  would  he  not  take  a  little  food.  And 
we  were  told  that  it  was  terrible  to  have  such  a  noble  man  die, 
and  would  not  we  coax  him  to  have  a  little  food.  One  day,  in 
answer  to  the  pleas  like  that  that  the  doctors  made  to  him,  he  said, 
"Doctors,  my  wife  and  sisters  are  with  me  in  this.  They  would  not 
ask  me  to  stop.  They  would  think  me  a  coward  if  I  did."  That 
was  verily  the  one  great  consolation  that  he  had, — that  we  were 
whole-heartedly  with  him  in  his  fight.  But  the  doctor  came  in  the 
afternoon  and  suggested  to  us  in  another  way :  that  my  brother  was 


— ~  317 

anxious  to  discontinue,  only  he  was  afraid  to  do  it,  thinking  that 
we  would  think  him  a  coward  and  give  him  a  hard  time  after- 
wards. I  am  telling  that  only  to  show  you  the  insidious  way  that 
they  went  about  trying  to  discredit  us,  and  to  give  you  another 
instance  why  I  corrected  that  small  slip  this  morning  where  a  sub- 
marine was  mentioned  instead  of  a  torpedo  destroyer.  Of  course, 
my  brother  did  not  say  that.  He  told  us  afterwards  what  he  had 
said.  And  he  told  us  over  and  over  again  how  much  we  strength- 
ened and  supported  him  because  we  were  with  him.  And  he  often 
said  to  us  individually  that  he  knew  that  our  part  in  the  suffering 
was  ever  so  much  harder  than  his,  because  it  is  always  harder  to 
see  one  you  love  suffer  than  to  suffer  yourself.  None  of  you  have 
ever  had  to  endure  that  sort  of  thing, — that  incessant  torture  of 
appeal  day  after  day.  I  suppose  the  doctors  thought  they  were 
doing  their  duty.  Most  of  these  appeals  were  made  to  me  and  my 
sister, — chieflly  to  me.  They  had  the  grace  to  leave  his  wife  alone. 
I  think  her  youth  and  her  grace  appealed  to  them.  Perhaps  they 
thought  we  were  not  feeling  it  so  much.  But  we  got  the  brunt  of 
it  to  bear,  and  it  was  not  easy. 

ANONYMOUS  LETTERS  OF  ABUSE 

Then  there  came  with  all  that  shoals  and  shoals  of  anonymous 
letters.  I  suppose  we  have  had  thousands  of  anonymous  letters 
from  all  parts  of  the  country  abusing  us.  A  great  many  of  them 
came  from  America,  but  then  they  did  not  come  from  Americans, 
but  from  the  English  propagandists  in  America.  But  we,  of 
course,  cast  all  these  aside.  We  did  not  read  them.  One  day  an 
anonymous  correspondent  sent  us  a  phial  of  poison  to  give  to  him 
and  "finish  him  off  quickly,  and  not  make  so  much  fuss  about 
it,  if  we  wanted  him  dead."  I'm  telling  you  that  particular  inci- 
dent for  this  reason:  religious  friends  had  been  sending  him 
religious  emblems  from  all  parts  of  the  world,  and  we  had  been 
getting  roses  and  flowers  and  things  like  that  in  little  parcels. 
And  up  to  that  time  we  had  been  taking  them  upstairs  and  open- 
ing them  at  his  bedside.  The  day  this  came  we  had  taken  this 
little  parcel  up  and  opened  it  and  glanced  at  it  before  we  showed 
it  to  him,  and  my  sister,  who  had  it  in  her  hand,  tried  to  hide  it 
away.  But  he  noticed  it  and  wanted  to  know  what  it  was.  It  was 
impossible  to  hide  it,  so  we  showed  it  to  him.  And  he  laughed 
and  said,  "You  surely  do  not  think  I  would  mind  a  thing  like 
that.'1  All  that  sort  of  thing  went  on.  We  did  not  read  anony- 
mous letters,  yet  still  they  had  their  share  in  the  things  we  had 
to  endure  while  we  were  over  there. 


318 


ENGLISH   HOPED   BROTHER'S   DEATH   WOULD 
PROVOKE  UPRISING  OF  VOLUNTEERS 

Another  thing  I  would  like  you  to  know  about  the  English  at- 
titude toward  us  is  that  we  found  out  that  they  were  counting  very 
strongly  on  the  effect  my  brother's  death  might  have  on  the  Irish 
Volunteers.  They  had  tried  in  every  way  to  provoke  the  Volun- 
teers until  they  would  come  out  in  the  open  so  that  they  might 
crush  them,  but  they  had  not  succeeded  in  doing  it.  They  had 
come  to  the  conclusion  that  they  could  not  defeat  the  Volun- 
teer organization  in  that  way,  but  they  still  thought  that  if  they 
could  get  hold  of  the  leaders  and  get  them  killed  in  large  num- 
bers, they  would  be  able  to  conquer  the  rest  of  the  country.  They 
counted,  I  think,  that  my  brother's  death  would  create  such  an 
uproar  in  Cork  that  the  Republican  soldiers  there  would  lose  their 
heads,  and  their  leaders  would,  too.  You  see,  my  brother  was  a 
very  cool  and  very  calm  man.  He  was  not  one  of  the  hot-headed, 
rash  young  people  that  the  English  Government  talks  about  such 
a  lot.  And  they  thought  that  because  he  was  so  much  loved  and 
so  calm,  that  his  death  would  enrage  the  Volunteers  and  they  would 
come  out  in  the  open,  and  the  Volunteers  could  then  he  shot  down 
lawfully,  as  it  were.  The  rumors  were  brought  to  me  from  Ireland 
that  the  Volunteers  were  in  a  very  great  state  of  tension.  And 
some  people  whose  advice  could  not  be  set  aside,  some  people  who 
were  not  scaremongers,  were  very  much  concerned  lest  his  death 
would  cause  just  such  an  uprising  in  Cork  as  would  give  the  Eng- 
lish their  chance.  And  so,  when  the  opportunity  came,  I  said  to 
my  brother,  "Do  you  think  the  Volunteers  will  be  out  of  hand? 
Would  you  not  like  to  send  them  a  message?"  His  answer  to  me 
was,  "Certainly  not.  The  Volunteers  are  soldiers  who  are  ef- 
fectively officered,  and  it  would  be  an  insult  to  both  officers  and 
men  if  I  sent  them  such  a  message.  They  are  a  disciplined  body, 
and  they  know  their  duty  and  they  will  do  it."  When  the  end  was 
very  close  and  the  tension  was  very  high,  I  sent  a  message  to  Cork 
myself,  and  this  message  was  that  I  had  heard  these  reports  and 
had  mentioned  them  to  my  brother  and  asked  him  if  he  would 
like  to  send  a  message;  and  I  gave  them  his  message  just  as  I 
got  it.  I  think  it  was  the  most  effective  message  that  could  have 
been  sent. 


319 

LLOYD    GEORGE  AND   HOME  OFFICE   REFUSE  TO 
SAVE  BROTHER'S  LIFE 

While  we  were  all  perfectly  satisfied  that  niv  brother  should 
carry  his  sacrifice  to  the  end,  and  while  we  did  not  begrudge 
him  to  Ireland,  we  felt  it  our  duty  to  do  every  single  thing  we 
could  to  save  him,  everything  we  could  consistently  do  with  his 
principles  and  with  ours.  We  would  not  be  guilty  of  any  com- 
promise any  more  than  he  would.  But  short  of  a  compromise,  we 
felt  bound  to  try  to  save  his  life  and  make  the  English  release 
him.  I  went  the  day  after  my  arrival  in  London  to  the  Home 
Office.  That  was  on  Friday — the  first  day  I  arrived  in  London.  1 
went  to  the  Home  Office.  I  saw  some  of  the  under  secretaries.  They 
told  me  that  the  Government's  decision  was  unalterable;  that  my 
brother's  death  would  be  on  his  own  head;  and  that  they  would 
not  release  him  on  account  of  the  hunger  strike.  I  asked  to  see 
Mr.  Shortt,  and  I  was  told  that  Mr.  Shorlt  was  busy.  I  wrote  to 
Mr.  Shortt  and  told  him  that  this  was  a  very  serious  matter,  and 
asked  for  an  interview.  He  wrote  back  that  no  good  purpose  was 
to  be  served  by  an  interview,  since  the  government's  decision  was 
unalterable.  Lloyd  George  was  then  in  Lucerne  or  Geneva,  Lucerne 
I  think,  and  I  asked  him  who  was  responsible  in  this  matter.  He 
sent  back  a  message,  which  probably  appeared  in  the  American 
papers  at  the  time,  which  was  a  deliberate  insult  to  a  woman  to 
whom  he  was  already  causing  as  much  suffering  as  was  at  all 
necessary.  He  said  that  he  had  received  my  appeal  on  behalf 
of  my  brother's  life.  (I  made  none.)  He  said  that  he  regretted 
that  my  brother  was  causing  such  suffering  to  his  family  by  his 
deliberate  suicide.  I  call  that  a  scoundrel's  answer,  a  scoundrel's 
insult.  I  wired  back  and  told  him  that  his  answer  was  an  insult; 
that  I  made  no  appeal  to  him,  but  I  wanted  to  know  on  whom  to 
place  the  responsibility  for  my  brother's  death.  He  accepted  that 
responsibility,  and  he  is  responsible  before  God  and  the  world 
for  that  murder.  For  no  law,  English  or  any  other  law,  justifies 
him  in  doing  what  he  did.  He  was  as  responsible  for  my  brother's 
death  as  he  was  when  he  was  declared  guilty  by  a  coroner's  jury 
of  the  City  of  Cork  for  the  death  of  my  brother's  predecessor,  Lord 
Mayor  MacCurtain.  The  Irish  people  know  where  to  put  the  re- 
sponsibility of  my  brother's  death,  and  it  is  no  use  for  Lloyd 
George  to  try  to  put  it  on  the  shoulders  of  any  individual  Black- 
and-Tan. 


320 

BRITISH    LABOR    FAILS   TO    SUPPORT    SYMPATHY 
WITH  EFFECTIVE  ACTION 

I  found,  then,  that  the  Home  Office  was  quite  determined  to  let 
him  die,  and  I  was  quite  convinced  of  that  after  my  interview 
there.  The  English  press  was  quite  sympathetic.  Even  the  anti- 
Irish  press  said  it  was  a  mistake  to  let  my  brother  die.  And  the 
labor  people  were  passing  resolutions  about  the  matter.  I  told  my 
brother  one  day  that  the  labor  people  were  very  sympathetic,  and 
his  answer  was,  "If  English  labor  really  wanted  to  get  me  out,  they 
could  do  it  in  twenty-four  hours  if  they  liked." 

Then  I  went  to  interview  the  Council  of  Action.  The  Council 
of  Action — I  do  not  know  whether  you  know  of  it  or  not — was  a 
council  of  the  labor  people  formed  by  the  working  classes  to 
prevent  Poland  being  supplied  with  arms  to  fight  the  Russians. 
They  were  very  interested  in  the  crisis  between  Russia  and  Poland, 
but  the  injustice  that  was  being  done  at  their  own  door  did  not 
affect  them.  I  went  to  see  them  so  that  if  they  did  not  take  ac- 
tion, they  could  not  plead  ignorance  as  an  excuse.  So  I  told  them 
what  was  going  on.  They  were  very  sympathetic,  very,  and  there 
were  some  very  honest  men  among  them.  But  no  man  was  suf- 
ficiently courageous  to  take  action.  They  were  very  courageous 
about  Russia,  but  the  particular  thing  they  were  doing  about 
Russia  was  not  against  the  wishes  of  their  own  Government. 

DUPLICITY    OF   MR.   THOMAS    PREVENTS   APPEAL 
TO   PORTSMOUTH   LABOR   CONGRESS 

There  was  a  big  labor  congress  held  this  summer  at  Ports- 
mouth. Some  of  our  friends  had  come  from  different  parts  of 
England,  and  they  said  that  the  feeling  was 'intense  about  letting 
my  brother  die.  And  they  said  that  if  the  Labor  Council  called 
a  strike,  that  strike  would  be  effective.  The  whole  Merthyr  di- 
vision and  the  whole  Newcastle  division  would  go  on  strike  and 
get  my  brother  released.  And  they  said  that  as  the  labor  congress 
was  meeting  in  Portsmouth,  that  I  should  go  down  there  and  try 
to  get  them  to  act.  The  labor  congress  represented  six  and  one- 
half  million  people;  and  if  the  labor  congress  could  be  got  to 
act,  that  even  the  government  would  be  forced  to  release  my 
brother. 

I  went  down  to  Portsmouth  and  sent  in  my  card  to  the  chairman, 
Mr.  Thomas,  who  is  general  secretary  of  the  Railroad  Union,  I 
believe.     Mr.  Thomas  is  rather  like  Mr.  Lloyd  George,  I  am  told, 


321 

in  character  and  action,  and  lie  has  acted  and  talked  very  much 
like  Mr.  George.  He  sent  out  word  that  the  congress  already  had 
passed  a  resolution  about  my  brother's  case,  and  nothing  more 
could  be  done.  I  sent  back  word  that  I  was  sorry,  but  I  wanted 
my  request  to  be  put  to  the  members  of  the  congress,  and  I 
would  take  their  answer.  He  sent  out  word  that  he  could  not  do  it. 
Meanwhile  I  got  word  that  the  standing  orders  committee  of  the 
Council  of  Action  was  meeting  upstairs,  and  that  the  standing 
orders  could  only  be  interfered  with  if  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee approved  of  it.  So  I  went  upstairs  for  an  interview  with 
the  standing  orders  committee.  They  were  all  intensely  sympa- 
thetic. Every  man  and  woman  I  talked  with  was  intensely  sym- 
pathetic. But  it  was  not  their  business.  They  were  not  respon- 
sible. That  was  their  attitude.  I  asked  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee to  be  allowed  to  speak  to  the  congress  for  five  minutes. 
They  said  it  could  not  be  done.  I  said  that  I  understood  that  in 
any  congress  in  a  matter  of  sufficient  importance  the  standing 
orders  could  be  set  aside  for  a  particular  case.  I  asked  them  if 
that  was  not  so,  and  they  said  yes,  but  in  this  case  it  could  not  be 
done.  I  asked  them  if  they  would  not  let  me  make  an  appeal  to 
the  representatives  of  six  and  a  half  million  people,  and  find 
out  if  they  would  let  my  brother  die  without  doing  anything  to 
stop  it.  They  were  very  reluctant  to  do  it.  They  were  equally 
reluctant  to  say  no.  And  so  they  sent  one  of  the  lady  members 
to  talk  to  me  and  convince  me  that  it  would  be  unwise.  I  said, 
"Unwise  for  whom?"  And  she  said  unwise  for  me.  And  I  said, 
"I  am  at  the  very  end,  and  no  action  they  could  take  would  be  un- 
wise for  me."  She  said  it  would  be  a  mistake.  I  wanted  to  get 
the  mistake  proved,  and  she  could  not  prove  it.  What  she  really 
meant  was  that  it  would  be  a  mistake  for  English  labor  people  to 
press  this  matter.  But  I  wanted  deeds,  not  words.  And  then 
finally  she  said  it  could  only  be  done  by  the  parliamentary  com- 
mittee. And  I  said,  "Does  the  parliamentary  committee  meet  to- 
day?" And  she  said  yes,  at  five  o'clock.  And  I  said,  "I  can 
get  a  train  back  to  London  later  than  that."  And  I  saw  a  great 
expression  of  relief  on  her  face.  And  I  asked  her  if  the  congress 
would  meet  after  that  time,  and  she  said  no.  And  I  said,  "I  can- 
not wait  that  long."  And  I  said,  "Are  the  parliamentary  commit- 
tee in  the  house  now?"  And  she  said  yes.  And  I  said,  "I  would 
like  to  see  them  now."  She  did  not  have  the  courage  to  say  no. 
And  so  they  sent  down  a  deputation  of  the  standing  orders  com- 
mittee to  confer  with  the  members  of  the  parliamentary  committee 
on  the  platform,   including   Mr.   Thomas.      They   did   not  tell   me 


322 

beforehand  that  they  were  going  to  do  that.  If  they  had  I  would 
have  known  perfectly  well  the  result.  But  they  sent  down  the 
deputation  before  I  was  informed  of  it.  And  they  came  back 
after  a  time  and  said  that  they  had  gone  down  and  they  had  pre- 
sented my  request  to  the  parliamentary  committee  that  was  on  the 
platform,  and  the  parliamentary  committee  had  said  that  it  was 
impossible  to  grant  my  request. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:     Is  it  necessary  to  go  into  all  these  details? 

A.     Not  entirely,  but  perhaps  I  am  tiring  you? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  think  it  is  very  important  to  know  the  steps 
you  took  to  get  your  brother  released,  but  the  details  of  the  move- 
ment I  am  afraid  will  tire  you  out  to  give  in  detail. 

The  Witness:  The  only  reason  I  was  giving  those  details  was 
this:  because  they  were  a  very  good  example  of  the  kind  of  hypo- 
critical sympathy  that  we  met  with,  and  the  fact  that,  doing  the 
meanest  things  they  could  do,  that  our  enemies  tried  to  do  them 
as  if  they  wanted  to  do  everything  they  possibly  could  to  please 
us.  And  I  only  ask  your  permission  to  say  this:  I  found  out  by 
dint  of  questioning  that  my  request  was  conveyed  to  the  congress 
in  this  manner:  Mr.  Thomas  got  up  and  said  that  Miss  Mac- 
Swiney,  the  Lord  Mayor's  sister,  had  asked  to  speak  to  them,  and 
that  he  need  not  tell  the  congress  what  a  harrowing  time  that  lady 
had  been  through  for  the  past  month,  and  that  although  the  lady 
would  be  quite  willing  to  talk  to  them,  that  he  was  quite  sure 
that  they  would  not  ask  that  poor  harrowed  lady  to  speak  to  them 
that  day.  And  so  out  of  'sheer  sympathy  they  were  fooled  into 
denying  my  request.  And  so  I  turned  around  and  said,  "I  simply 
want  a  straight  answer  to  a  straight  question.  If  I  came  here  to 
speak,  was  it  not  because  I  wanted  to  come?"  I  only  give  you 
that  so  that  you  will  understand.  They  will  not  openly  deny 
what  is  fair  and  just,  but  they  will  try  to  escape  giving  a  definite 
no.  I  gave  that  as  an  example  of  the  evil  propaganda  that  we 
had  to  fight  for  the  whole  two  and  a  half  months  while  we  were 
there. 

DOCTORS  THREATEN  FORCIBLE   FEEDING 

And  now  I  come  to  our  own  particular  treatment.  On  the  Mon- 
day before  my  brother's  death,  exactly  a  week  before  he  died,  there 
was  a  consultation  of  doctors,  and  when  they  came  out  they  called 
me  aside  and  they  said  that  my  brother  had  developed  symptoms 
of  scurvy,  and  that  it  was  necessary  for  him  to  take  lime  juice,  but 
he  had  refused,  and  when  they  had  asked  him  he  said  that  he  only 
wanted  to  be  left  alone  and  to  die  in  peace.     And  the  doctor  said 


323 

(this  was  the  special  doctor  who  came  to  see  him  once  a  week), 
"I  assure  you,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  your  brother  will  not  die  in 
peace  if  he  gets  scurvy.  He  will  die  with  the  most  terrible  tortures. 
And  you  had  better  urge  him  to  take  lime  juice  now."  And  I  told 
him  that  I  was  afraid  I  could  not.  And  then  he  continued  and  tried 
to  tell  me  what  a  terrible  death  dying  by  scurvy  was.  And  I  turned 
to  him  and  said,  "It  would  be  a  terrible  thing  to  die  with  tortures. 
The  matter  is  in  God's  hands,  and  we  can  only  ask  that  He  does  not 
let  him  suffer  too  much."  And  he  turned  to  me  and  said,  "God 
has  nothing  to  do  with  it.  The  case  is  in  our  hands — your  hands 
and  my  hands.  And  we  shall  see  that  he  will  have  to  take  lime 
juice."  I  said  that  I  would  not  urge  my  brother  to  take  lime  juice, 
and  that  was  all  there  was  about  it. 

There  were  a  couple  of  friends  from  Cork  who  came  to  see  him, 
and  he  teased  them  a  little  because  he  was  always  very  fond  of  tea, 
and  the  first  thing  he  always  said  was  to  ask  people  to  have  a  cup 
of  tea  with  him.  And  he  said  to  them  in  Irish,  "I  am  sorry  I  cannot 
offer  you  a  cup  of  tea."  And  they  said,  "Well,  never  mind,  we  will 
have  a  cup  of  tea  together  yet." 

The  next  morning  the  doctor  of  the  prison,  Dr.  Griffiths,  said  he 
was  going  to  force  him  to  take  lime  juice.  My  brother  sent  for  the 
governor  and  said  he  objected  to  being  forced  to  take  anything  in 
his  weak  state.  All  that  day,  Tuesday,  my  brother  was  very  excited, 
because  he  did  not  have  the  energy  to  resist — not  the  energy  of 
mind,  but  the  energy  of  body.  He  was  so  weak  he  could  not  resist 
physically  in  case  they  tried  to  feed  him  forcibly.  I  think  that  he 
felt  very  sad  that  after  seventy-four  days,  they  could  get  the  better 
of  him  and  make  him  take  something.  That  excited  him,  and  on 
Wednesday  morning  he  was  very  excited.  Early  in  the  morning, 
when  the  chaplain  visited  him,  he  was  very  excited. 

LAPSING   CONSCIOUSNESS   AND    DELIRIUM 

But  for  two  or  three  days  his  power  of  concentration  was  going 
from  him.  If  he  wanted  to  say  something,  he  would  say,  "You 
will  have  to  wait  a  minute  until  I  get  my  thoughts  clear."  On  that 
morning  when  my  sister  visited  him,  he  said  that  that  hammering 
was  the  doctor  coming  with  a  new  treatment.  I  will  not  go  over 
the  details  of  the  next  few  days.  I  want  to  come  to  Friday  morn- 
ing. During  the  period  of  delirium  he  recognized  me  three  times. 
He  recognized  my  other  sister  once.  After  Thursday  morning  he 
did  not  recognize  either  his  wife  or  my  brothers.  I  want  you  to 
think  of  that  when  his  people  were  not  allowed  in  the  prison.     On 


324 

that  Wednesday,  the  day  of  his  first  delirium,  he  turned  to  her  and 
said,  "Muriel,  you  have  always  stuck  by  me."  And  a  little  after- 
wards he  turned  to  me  and  said,  "Min  (that  was  my  pet  name  at 
home),  you  are  always  loyal  to  Ireland.  Stay  by  me  and  see  what 
they  do  to  me."  That  showed  how  hard  his  mind  was  working 
and  how  he  was  trying  to  cling  to  his  consciousness. 

He  was  wildly  delirious  all  that  day,  and  at  night  time  he  was 
very  uneasy.  I  am  not  given  to  asking  favors  of  the  doctors,  but  I 
did  beg  them  very  hard  that  night  to  let  me  stay  in  the  prison  with 
my  brother.  I  think  it  was  through  Dr.  Higson — he  was  always 
very  humane — that  Father  Dominick  was  also  allowed  to  stay  in 
the  prison. 

WHILE  UNCONSCIOUS,  PRISON  DOCTORS  FEED 
HIM 

Although  I  was  not  allowed  on  the  landing,  I  took  occasional 
peeps  to  see  what  was  going  on,  and  they  fed  him  all  through 
Wednesday  night.  They  did  not  begin  to  feed  him  until  Wednesday 
night,  when  he  was  quite  unconscious.  When  he  got  quiet  again 
he  was  conscious  for  a  few  minutes,  and  he  saw  me  in  the  room 
and  he  beckoned  me  and  said,  "I  am  afraid  they  have  tricked  me. 
Have  they?"  And  I  said,  "I  am  afraid  they  have."  And  he  said, 
"What  did  they  give  me?"  And  I  said,  "Meat  juice."  And  he 
said,  "Wait  a  minute.  We  will  have  to  keep  cool  now."  And  the 
nurse  came  over  and  said  I  was  not  to  talk  to  him.  And  then  he 
got  very  angry.  In  that  delirium  he  got  very  angry  a  couple  of 
times  before  he  entirely  lost  consciousness.  And  he  said,  "Go  away, 
nurse;  I  must  speak  to  my  sister."  And  the  nurse  said,  "You  must 
not  speak  to  her."  And  he  said,  "Go  away.  Go  away.  Go  away. 
Go  away."  Again  and  again  he  said  it.  And  then  he  lapsed  back 
into  unconsciousness.  And  I  said,  "Nurse,  please  go  away  for  a 
minute."  And  I  said  to  him,  "It  is  all  right  now."  And  he  said, 
"Wait  a  minute.  Wait  a  minute.  Wait.  Wait."  He  repeated 
"wait"  about  a  half  dozen  times.  He  was  clinging  on  to  his  con- 
sciousness as  long  as  he  could,  and  then  he  went  off  into  delirium 
again.    That  was  the  result  of  the  nurse's  interference. 

EXCLUDED  FROM  PRISON  FOR  EXPOSING 
HOME  SECRETARY'S  LIE 

I  got  permission  to  stay  there  all  that  night.  The  next  thing  1 
want  to  call  your  attention  to  is  that  in  Friday  morning's  papers 
appeared  a  remark  by  the  Home  Secretary.    He  had  been  questioned 


325 

in  the  House  of  Commons  by  an  honest  man,  Lieutenant-Commander 
Kenworthy,  about  forcibly  feeding  my  brother  in  his  weak  state. 
And  he  answered  that  the  Lord  Mayor  was  not  being  forcibly  fed, 
but  that  a  cup  was  held  to  his  lips  and  he  was  swallowing  it  volun- 
tarily. Now.  you  will  see  how  thoughtless  people  could  look  at 
that,  and  I  knew  it  was  more  propaganda.  And  that  morning  I 
tried  to  get  hold  of  Dr.  Higson — and  if  1  got  him  before  Dr. 
Griffiths  was  there,  I  usually  succeeded  in  getting  the  truth  out  of 
him  before  he  was  coached.  And  I  said  to  him,  "You  know  very 
well  that  that  action  of  swallowing  is  a  reflex  action;  that  it  is  not 
a  voluntary  action.*'  And  he  said  that  my  brother  was  quite  un- 
conscious that  he  was  swallowing,  and  that  it  was  a  reflex  action. 
And  I  said,  "Have  I  your  permission  to  quote  that  in  public?"  And 
he  said,  "Yes."  And  I  went  away  and  immediately  made  it  public. 
I  sent  it  to  the  House  of  Commons  and  to  Mr.  Shortt,  and  asked 
Mr.  Shortt  to  retract  the  lie  he  had  stated  the  night  before.  I  sent 
it  over  home,  and  I  also  gave  it  to  the  newspaper  correspondents 
of  the  whole  world,  that  statement  of  the  doctor's  with  his  name 
attached  to  it.  The  result  was  my  expulsion  from  the  prison.  1 
am  quite  sure  that  that  was  why  I  was  forbidden  to  enter  the  prison 
after  Friday. 

On  Saturday  morning,  as  it  unfortunately  happened,  I  was  the 
first  person  on  that  day.  We  used  to  change  about,  taking  turns. 
It  was  my  turn  to  visit  first  that  day.  I  arrived  at  the  prison  at 
half-past  eight.  My  brother  had  been  on  duty  all  night,  and  I  was 
to  relieve  him.  I  got  to  the  prison  gate — there  are  two  gates;  there 
is  a  large  wooden  gate,  and  then  about  ten  feet  inside  of  that  there 
is  a  big  iron  gate. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  Miss  MacSwiney,  so  that  there  will  not 
be  any  misapprehension  about  your  testimony,  you  said  that  that 
was  your  first  day  there? 

A.  No,  it  was  my  turn  to  pay  the  early  morning  visit  that  day. 
One  of  us  would  come  on  at  eight-thirty,  another  at  noon,  and 
another  at  night,  and  so  on.  This  morning  it  happened  to  be  my 
turn  to  go  on  first,  and  I  stepped  up  to  the  gate  and  started  to  go 
in.  And  the  warder  said,  "What  is  your  name,  please?"  It  was 
quite  extraordinary  to  be  asked  your  name  after  you  have  been 
going  there  every  day  for  over  two  months.  And  I  said,  "Mac- 
Swiney." And  he  said,  "Your  Christian  name,  please?"  And  1 
said,  "Miss  Mary  MacSwiney."  And  he  said,  "I  cannot  admit  you." 
And  I  said,  "On  whose  orders?"  And  he  said,  "On  the  governor's." 
And  I  said,  "May  I  see  the  governor?"  And  he  said,  "The  governor 
is  not  here."     And  he  ordered  me  to  step  outside  the  prison  gate. 


326 

I  would  not  go,  and  stepped  into  the  waiting  room  there  and  stayed 
there.  As  the  officials  came  in  I  questioned  each  one  of  them  and 
asked  them  on  whose  orders  I  was  kept  from  seeing  my  brother. 
And  they  said,  "Home  Office  orders."  And  I  asked  them  if  it 
would  apply  to  anybody  but  myself,  and  they  said  no,  I  was  the 
only  one. 

In  that  day's  papers  there  was  a  statement  that  on  the  day  before 
there  was  a  moment  when  my  brother  had  recognized  my  sister, 
and  he  had  asked  her  what  we  were  all  here  for  and  what  we  were 
doing  in  London.  And  she  did  not  want  to  upset  that  moment  of 
consciousness,  and  she  simply  said,  "Nothing.  You  are  all  right." 
That  appeared  in  the  morning's  papers,  and  the  order  to  exclude 
her  came  at  one  o'clock  that  day.  The  order  to  exclude  me  came 
from  my  publishing  Dr.  Higson's  statement  that  my  brother  was  not 
voluntarily  swallowing.  And  she  was  expelled  because  my  brother 
recognized  her. 

They  all  tried  to  get  me  out  of  the  prison,  but  they  did  not  suc- 
ceed. They  did  not  use  force.  My  sister-in-law  came  along  then, 
and  she  could  get  through  the  gate,  but  was  only  allowed  to  see 
her  husband  for  a  few  minutes,  and  then  he  was  not  conscious. 

FORCIBLY  EJECTED  FROM  PRISON  GATE 

We  stayed  there  until  half-past  ten  that  night.  I  do  not  want  to 
stress  it,  but  I  had  had  breakfast  at  half-past  seven,  and  did  not 
have  any  food  until  twelve  that  night.  I  would  have  gone  on  a 
hunger  strike  of  my  own  and  stayed  in  that  waiting  room  if  they 
had  not  used  force  to  get  us  out.  At  ten  o'clock  the  deputy  governor 
came  along  and  said,  "Miss  MacSwiney,  it  is  time  to  lock  up." 
And  I  said,  "Very  well,  lock  up."  And  he  said,  "I  am  afraid  you 
must  go  out."  And  I  said,  "I  will  not  go  out  until  I  see  my 
brother."  And  he  said,  "You  must,  for  it  is  time  to  lock  up  the 
prison."  And  I  said,  "It  is  strange  to  be  locking  up  a  place  that 
is  always  locked  up."  And  I  said,  "If  you  will  let  me  see  my 
brother  for  five  minutes,  I  will  go  away,  but  not  before."  Then  he 
said,  "The  local  police  have  orders  to  put  you  out  by  force."  I 
said,  "Very  well ;  if  the  local  police — enough  of  them — come  in  and 
use  force  to  put  two  women  out,  they  can  do  so.  But  I  will  not 
go  voluntarily." 

I  can  only  tell  you  this:  they  started  in  at  ten  o'clock,  and  it  was 
five  minutes  to  eleven  before  they  got  us  out.  The  police  inspector 
came  and  tried  to  get  us  out  by  "moral  suasion,"  and  I  said  there 
was  no  morality  about  anything  they  were  doing.     He  argued  with 


327 

my  sister  and  did  no  better.  They  finally  technically  arrested  us. 
That  is,  in  England  if  a  policeman  puts  his  hand  on  your  shoulder 
and  says  you  are  under  arrest,  you  are  arrested.  Then  they  led 
us  out  of  the  prison,  and  a  taxi  was  waiting  for  us,  and  took  us 
home.  And  then  when  I  got  home,  about  twelve  o'clock,  I  got  the 
first  thing  I  had  had  to  eat  since  early  that  morning. 

INHUMANLY  KEPT  FROM  BROTHER'S  DEATH  BED 

Sunday  was  just  a  repetition  of  Saturday  for  my  sister  and  my- 
self, except  that  we  were  both  compelled  to  stay  outside  the  outer 
gate  of  the  prison.  On  Saturday  we  were  allowed  to  wait  down  in 
the  little  waiting  room,  and  on  Sunday  we  had  to  stand  in  the  street. 
And  if  I  have  given  you  that  in  a  lot  of  detail,  it  was  not  to  draw 
your  attention  to  our  personal  suffering.  But  if  that  had  happened 
in  Germany,  if  two  women  had  been  kept  from  their  brother's  death 
bed  and  made  to  stand  on  the  street  during  the  long,  cold  day,  you 
would  have  heard  a  great  deal  about  it  as  a  German  atrocity.  I 
mention  it  simply  because  it  was  a  British  atrocity.  I  do  not  want 
to  draw  attention  to  our  personality  in  any  way.  Sunday  was 
simply  a  repetition  of  Saturday.     And  on  Monday  my  brother  died. 

CROWN  SEEKS  VERDICT  OF  SUICIDE  AT  INQUEST 

I  simply  want  to  say  something  about  the  inquest  that  my  sister- 
in-law  did  not  mention  this  morning,  and  that  is  this:  that  they  did 
everything — every  single  thing  they  could — to  bring  in  a  verdict  of 
suicide.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  the  law  about  it,  but  I  heard 
it  quite  late  on  Tuesday  evening  that  if  my  brother  was  found  to 
be  a  suicide,  they  could  hold  his  body.  I  have  mentioned  earlier 
that  we  had  summoned  this  specialist,  Sir  Norman  Moore,  whom 
we  called  to  see  my  brother  and  to  examine  his  medicine.  We  did 
not  summon  him  to  the  inquest,  because  we  did  not  think  it  neces- 
sary, and  you  must  give  twenty-four  hours'  notice  to  summon  wit- 
nesses. On  Tuesday  evening,  when  we  heard  that  they  were  trying 
to  bring  in  a  verdict  of  suicide,  we  immediately  called  up  Dr. 
Norman  Moore  and  told  him  the  circumstances  and  asked  him  to 
come  and  tell  the  jury  that  the  one  thing  my  brother  did  not  want 
to  do  was  to  die.  I  talked  with  him  myself  over  the  telephone,  and 
he  did  not  want  to  come.  The  jury  was  asked  to  bring  in  a  verdict 
of  suicide,  and  they  did  not  do  it.     They  brought  in  an  open  verdict. 


328 

BODY    BRUTALLY    SEIZED    FROM    RELATIVES    BY 
ENGLISH  AUTHORITIES 

Our  solicitor  asked  them  for  the  body,  and  the  crown  solicitor 
jumped  up  and  said,  "Where  is  he  to  be  buried?"  And  our  solicitor 
said,  "In  Cork,  of  course."  And  they  said,  "You  cannot  have  the 
body  to  be  buried  any  place  outside  of  England  without  a  permit." 
My  sister-in-law  has  told  you  how  we  finally  got  permission  from 
the  Home  Office  to  take  the  body. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  ask  if  there  is  anything  else 
between  that  and  the  Holyhead  incident? 

A.     No,  there  is  nothing. 

At  Crewe  we  were  told  that  when  we  got  to  Holyhead  we  were 
to  go  on  a  boat  and  go  straight  to  Cork.  My  brother  was  sent  for 
by  the  police  inspector.  I  do  not  know  that  you  are  aware  that  a 
large  body  of  police  traveled  on  the  train  from  Euston  to  Holyhead. 
They  tried  to  play  a  trick  on  us,  and  tried  to  send  the  train  off 
without  the  friends  knowing  it.  And  then  my  sister  and  myself 
went  into  the  van  where  my  brother's  remains  were,  and  said  we 
would  not  go  away.  Then  they  started  the  train  and  sent  us  away 
to  get  us  outside  of  London.  We  were  then  informed  by  the  police 
that  the  remains  were  to  be  put  on  the  steamship  Rathmore  and 
taken  to  Dublin,  and  that  not  more  than  twenty  of  my  brother's 
friends  were  to  be  allowed  to  travel  with  my  brother's  remains.  A 
consultation  was  held  with  my  sister,  and  we  decided  unanimously 
that  we  would  not  one  of  us  go  on  that  ship.  If  they  took  my 
brother's  remains  away  from  us  by  force,  and  then  we  went  on  the 
ship,  it  would  be  a  tacit  consent  to  their  action.  Some  people  have 
seemed  to  think  that  we  were  very  hard-hearted  to  let  my  brother's 
remains  travel  like  that  without  any  of  his  friends.  We  did  what 
we  knew  he  would  have  liked  us  to  do — what  would  be  for  Ireland's 
good  first. 

When  Holyhead  was  reached  we  went  and  stood  by  the  van  where 
my  brother's  remains  were.  My  younger  brother  went  and  inter- 
viewed the  station  master,  and  we  were  told  finally  that  the  body 
was  to  be  taken  by  force,  and  they  came  into  the  van  to  take  it. 
I  asked  the  station  master  if  he  was  not  going  to  fulfil  the  contract 
for  which  he  was  paid — the  contract  to  deliver  my  brother's  re- 
mains in  Dublin.  He  said  no;  that  he  had  government  orders,  and 
they  must  be  obeyed.  And  I  said  that  no  man  had  a  right  to  obey 
an  order  like  that.  Then  we  were  asked  to  go  outside,  and  we 
refused.  And  we  decided  that  this  time  technical  arrest,  like  the 
laying  of  an  officer's  hand  on  your  shoulder,  was  not  sufficient,  and 


329 

that  this  time  we  ought  to  resent  by  bodily  resistance  the  second 
arrest  of  the  body  of  a  dead  man.  I  might  add  that  when  we  got 
on  the  platform  at  Holyhead  there  were  about  one  hundred  fifty 
Black-and-Tans  there,  and  their  faces  as  they  sneered  and  jeered 
through  the  window  at  my  brother's  body  was  the  most  evil  thing 
I  believe  I  have  ever  seen. 

Finally  all  the  friends  gathered  around  the  coffin,  and  they  refused 
to  move.  I  would  rather  be  spared  the  details  of  what  followed. 
There  were  some  men  first:  I  can  only  say  that  I  was  the  first 
woman  to  be  picked  up  like  a  bale  of  goods  and  thrown  out — 
thrown  out  literally — onto  the  platform.  My  brother  jumped  to 
try  to  save  me,  and  he  was  nearly  choked  by  four  policemen.  And 
a  military  officer  jumped  over  a  wagon — a  small  cart — and  took 
him  by  the  back  of  the  neck  and  tried  to  choke  him.  He  had  his 
arms  around  me,  and  I  threw  my  arms  around  him  to  try  to  save 
him  from  being  choked  to  death.  The  incident  was  a  very  painful 
one.  And  I  thought  every  instant  that  my  younger  brother  would 
drop  dead  before  my  eyes,  because  the  treatment  he  received  by  the 
Canadian  authorities  in  a  Canadian  prison  during  the  war  has 
injured  his  heart;  and  a  doctor  in  America  has  told  him  that  any 
excitement  is  apt  to  cause  him  to  drop  dead.  And  I  was  afraid  he 
was  going  to  drop  dead  that  night. 

Q."    Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  time  of  day  was  that? 

A.     Eleven  o'clock  at  night;  between  eleven  and  twelve. 

Q.     What  was  done  then  after  that? 

A.  They  took  the  body,  and  increased  the  number  that  could 
travel  wTith  it  from  twenty  to  seventy-five;  and  when  we  refused  to 
go,  the  police  inspector  asked  Mr.  O'Brien  to  point  out  to  the  rela- 
tives the  sacredness  of  the  remains  and  what  respect  was  due  them. 
As  if  we  needed  to  be  pointed  out  the  sacredness  of  his  body! 

The  body  was  taken  by  the  Rathmore  to  Dublin.  We  proceeded 
to  Dublin,  where  the  funeral  was  carried  out,  and  then  we  went  on 
to  Cork  by  special  train.  In  the  evening  I  got  a  letter  that  my 
brother's  body  was  at  the  customs  house  and  we  might  have  it.  It 
was  quarter  past  nine  when  I  got  that  word.  They  tried  to  get  every- 
body in  the  city  to  take  that  body  before  they  communicated  with 
us.  I  am  glad  to  say  that  the  citizens  of  Cork  did  exactly  what  we 
would  have  had  them  do,  and  refused  to  touch  his  remains  because 
they  had  no  authority. 

INTERMENT  OF  LORD  MAYOR'S  BODY  IN 
MARTYRS'  PLOT 
Q.     Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  And  his  remains  were  interred  where? 
A.     In  what  is  called  the  Martyrs'  Plot. 
Q.     And  that  plot  is  where? 


330 

A.  It  is  devoted  to  those  who  have  been  the  victims  of  the  recent 
outrages  in  Cork.  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  the  first  to  be 
buried  there.  The  fallen  members  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
are  also  there,  and  the  other  deceased  hunger  strikers  have  been 
buried  there  since.  It  is  fast  filling  up;  and  at  the  rate  that  Eng- 
land is  killing  people  there,  it  seems  that  they  would  like  it  to  take 
in  the  whole  country. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  There  are  a  couple  of  matters  the  Commission 
would  like  to  ask  you  about. 

MILITARY  TRIBUNALS  REPLACE  CIVIL  COURTS 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Could  you  tell  us  something  more,  Miss 
MacSwiney,  about  the  extent  to  which  the  present  Republican  courts 
in  Ireland  are  functioning? 

A.  Yes.  I  would  like  to  refer  first  to  what  I  said  yesterday — 
that  the  courts,  the  English  courts,  were  sitting  in  state  behind 
barbed  wire  and  sand  bags.  That  was  true  until  a  couple  of  months 
ago,  when  they  brought  in  the  Coercion  Act,  so  that  these  judges 
do  not  sit  any  longer,  because  they  have  military  courts  now. 

JUDGMENTS  OF  REPUBLICAN  COURTS  PROVE 
IRISH   FIT  FOR  SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Another  point  that  I  would  like  to  emphasize  is  that  the  English 
say  that  we  Irish  will  never  be  fit  for  self-government.  But  there 
is  one  instance  I  would  like  to  tell  that  I  am  sure  a  good  many  here 
have  never  heard  of.  It  happened  while  we  were  at  Brixton.  It 
was  related  in  all  of  the  papers,  and  in  some  it  was  called  a  judg- 
ment of  Solomon.  There  were  two  brothers  who  for  many  years 
had  been  fighting  about  the  division  of  the  large  farm  where  they 
lived.  One  brother  was  married,  and  he  wanted  a  settlement.  They 
had  been  into  English  courts  three  or  four  times,  and  they  wanted 
a  decision.  The  fight  between  the  brothers  was  getting  to  be  very 
bitter.  The  case  was  finally  taken  into  a  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  the 
decision  was  very  interesting.  It  was  this:  the  elder  brother  was  to 
make  the  division  of  the  farm  as  he  considered  it  fair,  and  the 
younger  brother  was  to  take  his  choice  of  the  halves.  I  do  not 
think  that  since  the  time  of  Solomon  you  have  had  a  more  fair 
judgment  than  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask  if  you  would  attribute  that 
to  the  Irish  character  or  to  the  absence  of  lawyers  from  the  courts? 

A.     Perhaps  to  both,  Mr.  Thomas. 


331 

SHOOTING  OF  ENGLISH  SPIES  AN  UNAVOIDABLE 
NECESSITY  JUSTIFIED  BY  CODE  OF  WAR 

Another  matter  to  which  I  would  like  to  refer  was  the  shooting  of 
the  fourteen  military  officers  in  Dublin.  Of  course  I  was  not  there 
and  do  not  know  ail  of  the  details  of  the  case.  And  yet  I  would 
know  from  my  own  confidence  in  the  Irish  Government  that  that 
was  just.  And  I  can  tell  you  that  those  fourteen  officers  who  were 
shot  were  fourteen  absolutely  expert  men  who  were  sent  over  to 
get  the  whole  threads  of  our  organization  into  their  hands;  that 
they  had  captured  vital  documents  of  ours  which  they  were  about 
to  use;  and  death  was  absolutely  necessary  by  the  laws  of  the 
Republic.  They  had  been  infringing  on  our  rights.  They  were 
military  officers  doing  secret  service  work  for  their  government. 
That  I  know.  And  I  know  perfectly  well  that  they  were  not  shot 
without  good  reason,  and  that  they  were  a  very  great  danger  to  our 
men.  whose  lives  we  value.  Also,  a  very  good  point  is  made  of  the 
fact  that  one  man  was  shot  in  the  presence  of  his  wife.  But  many  of 
our  men  have  been  shot  in  the  presence  of  their  wives;  and  in  the 
case  of  the  British  government  it  is  not  necessary,  because  they 
could  get  our  men  at  any  time.  I  know  that  it  is  not  a  nice  thing 
to  happen,  but  in  this  case  it  was  unavoidable. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  is  the  nature  of  the  notice  that  is  given 
by  the  Irish  Republic  to  British  officers  who  are  going  to  be  killed? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  definitely,  but  it  has  been  publicly  stated 
that  certain  things  are  forbidden  by  the  Irish  Government;  that 
they  are  crimes,  and  that  any  man  who  does  those  things  will  be 
shot.  In  addition,  I  think  there  is  a  notice  sent  to  every  man  who 
is  going  to  be  shot,  and  he  is  warned.  Some  of  them  are  captured 
and  tried  before  a  court  in  person  before  they  are  condemned  to  be 
shot. 

Q.  But  if  the  British  officer  is  known  to  commit  an  act  of  treason 
to  the  Irish  Government,  is  there  some  communication  sent  to  him 
warning  him  that  if  he  does  not  leave  the  country  he  will  be  shot? 

A:  I  understand  that  there  is.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge 
of  that. 

Q.  But  you  understand  that  a  warning  is  given  to  cease  some 
kind  of  activity  that  is  considered  harmful  by  the  Irish  Government, 
and  that  if  they  do  not  do  so  they  will  be  killed? 

A.     Yes,  I  understand  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  There  are  two  points  that  I  under- 
stand you  to  make:  first,  that  your  general  confidence  in  the  Irish 
Republic  is  such  that  the  shooting,  you  think,  is  justified  according 


332 

to  the  code  of  war.  Do  I  also  understand  you  to  say  that  these 
fourteen  men  were  military  spies? 

A.  I  do  not  know  personally  that  these  fourteen  men  were  mili- 
tary intelligence  men,  but  I  am  quite  sure  if  they  were  not  they 
would  not  have  been  shot. 

Q.  I  understood  these  fourteen  men  were  connected  with  courts- 
martial ;  but  you  claim  now  they  were  connected  with  the  military 
intelligence  service? 

A.  Yes,  but  you  must  understand  that  I  was  in  the  midst  of  the 
affairs  of  my  brother's  death,  and  since  then  I  have  been  so  occupied 
with  his  papers  that  I  have  not  given  great  attention  to  the  matter. 
But  I  heard  that  this  was  the  case;  that  they  were  secret  service  men. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  you  and  Mr.  Frank  Walsh  could  gather 
further  evidence  on  that  point? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  I  could  gather  it. 

Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh:  I  will  undertake  to  get  it. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  You  think  these  men  were  spies? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  my  understanding. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  As  I  understand  it,  there  is  a  distinction 
between  men  living  in  barracks  who  have  a  definite  military  duty 
to  perform,  and  those  who  come  into  the  country  as  spies  to  trace 
down  men,  and  who  often  go  about  in  civilian  clothes  to  conceal 
their  identity. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  But  you  understood  that  these  fourteen  men  were  not  con- 
nected with  open  military  leaders,  but  had  come  to  Ireland  to  spy 
there  and  seek  the  lives  of  your  men? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 


EDUCATIONAL  PROGRAM  OF  THE  IRISH 
REPUBLIC 

Q.  I  believe  you  told  me,  Miss  MacSwiney,  that  as  you  had  told 
something  of  the  educational  system  that  had  existed  heretofore, 
that  you  would  like  briefly  to  state  what  is  being  done  now  by  your 
nation  for  the  education  of  your  children. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  And  I  would  like  in  that  connection  for  you 
to  state  what  you  have  observed  since  this  movement  began  in  the 
way  of  giving  stamina  and  strength  and  character  to  the  future  of 
your  country — what  effect  this  movement  has  had  upon  the  character 
of  the  people. 

A.     Yes,  I  would  like  to  speak  of  that,  but  I  shall  not  dwell  at 


333 

great  length  upon  it.  Yesterday  I  explained  to  you  the  method  of 
education  of  what  I  reluctantly  called  the  "better  class"  of  the 
country — that  it  anglicized  them;  it  made  them  think  that  everything 
English  was  good  and  that  everything  Irish  was  something  to  be 
ashamed  of.  Thus  people  sometimes  claimed  to  be  Irish,  but  they 
were  proud  to  be  known  as  West  Britons.  Once  when  I  spoke  of 
the  Irish  element,  one  of  these  persons  said  to  me,  "Yes,  that  is 
the  rowdy  element." 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  connection  with  the  new 
school  system  in  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  I  was  the  founder  of  a  school  for  girls.  I  founded 
it  in  connection  with  my  dismissal  in  1916.  When  I  found  the 
secondary  schools  of  the  country  were  so  anglicized  that  one  could 
not  teach  in  them  and  be  Irish,  I  took  things  into  my  own  hands 
and  opened  up  a  school  in  our  home,  and  it  has  grown  very  rapidly. 

Q.     How  many  pupils  have  you  now? 

A.     About  one  hundred. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Is  there  another  school  of  that  same  kind 
in  Dublin? 

A.  Yes,  founded  afterwards  by  Miss  Gavan  Duffy  in  Dublin. 
It  has  been  very  successful,  too. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Does  your  Republic  make  provision  for 
schools? 

A.  Not  financially  yet,  but  there  is  a  minister  of  education  that 
will  take  charge  later  on.  But  these  two  schools  had  this  advantage: 
that  we  who  started  them  had  the  confidence  of  our  fellow  citizens; 
that  we  were  able  to  teach,  in  the  first  place,  and  that  we  were  also 
able  to  give,  from  the  standpoint  of  general  culture  and  refinement, 
anything  that  the  pro-British  schools  could  give.  That  is  the  spirit 
of  the  school :  we  give  the  best  that  any  school  around  us  could 
give  of  the  culture  and  refinement  of  the  world  generally.  We  do 
not  confine  ourselves  to  our  own  country,  but  our  own  country  is 
the  center  from  which  everything  starts — the  same  as  in  American 
schools  America  is  the  center  from  which  things  start.  You  learn 
your  own  history  first.  France  learns  her  own  history  first.  And 
I  know  that  England  does. 

We  were  the  first  girls'  school  in  Ireland — of  course,  Padraic 
Pearse  did  it  at  his  school — but  we  were  the  first  in  Ireland  to 
start  in  with  Irish  culture.  We  taught  them,  when  they  said  they 
were  proud  of  being  Irish,  we  taught  them  what  that  meant.  We 
taught  Irish  history  from  the  Irish  point  of  view;  and  when  the 
books  did  not  agree  with  that — because  I  have  told  you  that  the 
books  were  written  in  England  for  Ireland — then  the  books  had  to 


334 

go  to  the  wall,  and  the  truth  was  told.  But  the  people  who  sent 
their  children  to  our  schools  were  not  all  Irish  Republicans.  One 
man  was  reproved  for  sending  his  children  to  us,  and  he  said,  "I 
will  take  my  political  orders  from  my  party,  but  I  will  not  take 
orders  from  it  as  to  where  to  send  my  children  to  school."  We 
have  done  what  we  could  in  Cork  to  destroy  anglicization,  and  so 
has  St.  Brigid's  school  in  Dublin. 

This  year  we  had  no  government  grant  to  speak  of,  and  we  were 
afraid  we  would  have  to  close  down  for  lack  of  funds;  and  a  com- 
mittee of  Irish  friends  in  both  Cork  and  Dublin  decided  that  it 
would  be  a  national  calamity  to  close  our  schools,  so  they  got 
together  a  committee  and  asked  people  to  take  shares  to  finance 
both  schools  until  An  Dail x  was  prepared  to  take  over  control. 
And  the  result  was  that  the  committee  took  over  the  financing  of 
the  school  and  left  the  management  of  the  school  to  us. 

SCHOOLS  NOT  USED  BY  REPUBLICANS  AS 
PROPAGANDA  AGENCIES 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  As  an  educator  who  has  to  teach 
history  to  children,  you  would  regret  very  much,  would  you  not, 
that  these  British  officers  had  a  secret  trial  and  were  condemned 
to  death  in  their  absence? 

A.  Yes,  I  certainly  would  say  that  it  is  regrettable  that  such 
things  have  to  be  done.  I  dare  say  that  in  your  Revolutionary  War 
you  had  to  do  a  great  many  things  that  you  regret  having  had  to  do. 
And  I  dare  say  in  teaching  your  children  their  history,  you  touch 
as  lightly  as  possible  on  the  things  you  had  to  do. 

Q.  The  children  are  very  much  educated  by  current  events,  by 
what  is  happening  at  the  moment.  Do  you  do  anything  to  counter- 
act what  is  being  done  all  around  them? 

A.  With  regard  to  those  things,  the  children  we  have  at  school 
come  from  all  sorts  of  parents;  and  we  have  decided  for  the  present 
that  we  will  not  teach  them  directly  the  Irish  Republican  point  of 
view  any  more  than  any  other  point  of  view.  But  they  get  it  in- 
sensibly. The  atmosphere  of  the  school  is  Irish.  It  is  the  first  girls' 
school  of  the  better  class  where  the  atmosphere  is  Irish. 

THE  NEW  SPIRIT  OF  THE  IRISH  PEOPLE 

I  would  like  to  stress  another  point.  Up  to  the  time  the  Volun- 
teer movement  started,  there  was  an  atmosphere  of — I  do  not  like 


An  Dail — the  national  parliament. 


335 

to  call  it  slavery — but  a  very  unpleasant  atmosphere  in  Ireland. 
People  were  ashamed  to  hold  up  their  heads.  There  was  a  time 
when  people  went  about  with  what  you  would  call  a  hang-dog 
expression.  But  now  the  young  men  and  women  go  about  holding 
up  their  heads,  knowing  perfectly  well  that  they  are  acting  in  a  way 
that  future  generations  will  be  proud  of  them.  There  is  not  a  man 
or  woman  today  who  is  not  interested  in  the  Irish  Republic — who 
is  not  proud  to  be  Irish. 

And  you  must  remember  that  we  have  in  Ireland  today  a  Repub- 
lican army  that  is  both  large  and  victorious.  And  if  England 
succeeds  in  shooting  down  the  men,  the  women  will  take  their 
places.  And  if  she  shoots  down  the  women,  the  children  will  take 
their  places.  And  if  they  shoot  down  the  children,  the  blades  of 
grass  will  spring  up  into  armed  men  and  take  their  places. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  is  all  very  easy  to  understand. 
But  how  do  you  teach  the  children  about  affairs  where  men  are  shot 
down  in  their  hotel  rooms  and  in  their  homes,  and  things  like  that? 

A.  Yes,  we  have  been  asked  questions  like  that  in  school.  We 
were  asked  one  day  in  school  in  a  religious  lesson  what  the  ethics 
of  shooting  policemen  were.  And  the  answer  I  gave  the  child  was 
this:  We  are  at  war  at  present.  During  the  period  that  we  are 
passing  through,  many  things  have  to  be  done  that  we  may  think 
are  regrettable;  that  those  things  have  to  be  done  by  the  Council 
that  is  directing  our  affairs;  and  until  we  can  get  a  knowledge  of 
the  facts  on  which  our  Supreme  Council's  actions  are  based,  that 
we  cannot  judge;  and  that  therefore  we  must  suspend  judgment  for 
the  time.  But  that  if  we  find  our  government  guilty  of  cruelty,  we 
must  blame  our  government  as  well  as  any  other  government.  But 
until  we  have  all  the  facts,  we  should  not  pass  judgment.  This 
was  the  answer  I  gave  to  a  class  of  senior  girls.  But  I  may  say 
to  you  that  I  think  we  are  born  politicians  in  Ireland;  and  we  do 
not  have  to  explain  things  to  the  children.  As  soon  as  they  are 
out  of  the  cradle  they  know  about  as  much  about  these  things  as 
we  do. 

Now,  Mr.  Walsh,  I  think  that  is  about  all. 

FINANCIAL  SUPPORT   OF   REPUBLICAN 
GOVERNMENT 

Q.     Commissioner   Maurer:   I   would   like  to   ask  you  about   the 

arrangements  for  financing  your  government.  Have  you  a  plan  of 
finance  at  work? 

A.     The   government   floated   a   loan   in   Ireland   some  time   ago, 


336 

and  they  asked  for  a  quarter  of  a  million,  and  that  quarter  of  a 
million  was  oversubscribed.  The  people  are  incredibly  generous. 
When  money  is  needed,  it  will  come. 

JUSTICE  AND   FAIR  PLAY   ASKED   OF  AMERICANS 

There  are  one  or  two  things  I  would  like  to  say  while  we  are 
closing  up  at  the  end  of  these  two  days,  and  they  are  this  (I  would 
ask  the  Chairman's  permission  to  stand  in  telling  them)  :  I  want, 
in  leaving  you,  to  ask  you  to  keep  in  mind  one  or  two  points.  The 
long  story  I  have  been  telling  you  is  to  show  you  how  all  the  time 
English  propaganda  is  being  used  to  discredit  us  before  all  the 
world  and  among  the  nations.  And  I  want  you,  whenever  you  are 
told  anything  about  Ireland  from  any  English  source,  to  remember 
what  I  have  told  you  today,  and  to  say,  "We  will  not  judge  until 
we  have  heard  the  other  side."  You  have  been  told  lies  and  lies 
and  lies  about  us.  And  one  of  the  manufactured  lies  I  want  to 
scotch  is  that  you  are  told  day  after  day  that  this  co-called  Sepa- 
ratist Movement  in  Ireland  is  only  the  work  of  the  extremist  section, 
which  the  English  people  call  the  "murder  gang";  and  that  the 
majority  of  the  Irish  people,  who  are  not  Sinn  Feiners,  are  moderate 
people  who  are  sighing  for  peace.  There  is  no  such  division  in 
Ireland  at  all.  And  please  stress  that.  And  I  ask  the  newspaper 
men  to  state  that  fairly  before  the  American  public.  I  want  to 
speak  to  the  American  people.  I  know  the  Irish  in  America  are 
with  us,  and  to  talk  to  them  is  like  taking  coals  to  Newcastle.  I 
don't  want — I  was  most  uncomplimentary  to  some  of  my  Irish- 
American  sympathizers  this  morning,  and  I  told  them  I  didn't  want 
to  talk  to  them.  I  want  to  talk  to  the  people  who  call  themselves 
"one  hundred  per  cent.  Americans" — although  I  should  think  I 
would  have  to  go  to  the  Cherokee  Indians  to  do  that!  But  I  want 
to  talk  to  the  Americans  who  are  anti-Irish.  And  I  want  to  ask 
them,  in  the  name  of  humanity,  in  the  name  of  civilization  and  of 
the  freedom  they  said  they  fought  for,  to  be  fair  to  us.  We  are  not 
a  divided  people.  We  are  one.  There  is  a  little  corner  in  Ireland 
of  English  settlers,  but  they  are  Irish  now,  although  they  have  kept 
some  of  the  English  characteristics  up  in  the  north  of  Ireland. 
That  is  one  of  our  domestic  problems.  But  we  Irish  are  not  a 
problem  of  England:  we  are  an  international  problem,  and  the 
world  will  have  to  recognize  it.  And  there  will  be  no  peace  for 
England  and  there  will  be  no  peace  for  the  world  until  it  is  settled. 
And  I  know  that  you  American  people  have  recognized  that,  and 
that  this  American  Commission  has  done  its  best  to  try  and  settle 
that  problem  in  the  interests  of  world  peace. 


337 

NOT  A  FEW  EXTREMISTS  BUT  INDIVISIBLE  IRISH 
PEOPLE  DEMAND  INDEPENDENCE 

I  would  ask  vou,  when  you  are  told  lies  about  the  extremist  section 
that  will  accept  no  reconciliation,  and  the  moderate  Sinn  Fein  ele-' 
ment,  to  remember  that  I  have  told  you  that  there  is  no  such  thing; 
that  the  whole  movement  in  Ireland  today  is  one  and  indivisible; 
that  we  are  out  for  an  Irish  republic;  that  we  are  out  for  complete 
separation  from  our  oppressor;  that  there  is  no  government  in 
Ireland  today  supported  by  the  people  except  the  government  with 
the  ideals  President  de  Valera  stands  for  and  the  ideals  Arthur 
Griffith  stands  for,  and  the  rest  of  those  men,  and  the  weakest  woman 
and  child  among  us.  We  want  our  Republic,  and  we  will  have  it 
with  or  without  the  help  of  the  world.  For  when  men  and  women 
and  children  are  willing  to  die  for  a  cause,  that  cause  must  triumph 
in  the  end.  And  all  we  ask  from  the  American  people  is  this,  that 
they  should  give  us  justice  and  fair  play;  that  Americans  should 
not  listen  to  England  when  she  says  that  a  small  body  of  extremists 
is  the  cause  of  all  this  trouble.  That  is  not  true.  I  would  like  to 
have  you  remember  what  I  have  said  today:  that  the  cause  of 
Ireland  is  an  Irish  Republic,  and  that  men,  women,  and  children 
are  united  on  that  point. 

ENGLAND'S     EFFORTS    TO     CRUSH     IRELAND     IN- 
FLICTS SUFFERING  ON  WOMEN  AND  CHILDREN 

The  second  point  I  wish  to  leave  with  you  is,  as  I  stated  yesterday, 
that  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith  said  that  today  is  the  Valley  Forge  of  Ire- 
land, and  tomorrow  will  be  our  Yorktown — our  day  of  victory. 
I  do  not  need  to  tell  you  what  a  bad  time  you  had  at  Valley  Forge. 
But  there  is  this  difference:  then  it  was  your  men  who  were  suffer- 
ing; but  n,ow  it  is  our  women  and  children.  It  is  bad  enough  for 
the  women,  but  in  any  case  it  is  very  hard  to  see  the  children  suffer. 

You  must  also  remember  that  by  constant  and  unremitting  hard- 
ship, hunger,  and  cold  you  can  break  the  spirit  of  any  people,  if 
you  keep  it  up  long  enough.  And  that  is  what  England  is  trying 
to  do  today — what  she  tried  to  do  four  hundred  years  ago  under 
Mountjoy  and  Carewe  she  is  trying  to  do  today  under  the  Black- 
and-Tans — to  break  down  the  people  by  destroying  the  sources 
from  which  the  people  get  their  food,  and  thus  starve  them  into 
submission. 


338 

AMERICA   CAN   RELIEVE   SUFFERING   OF   WOMEN 
AND  CHILDREN 

I  do  not  like  to  ask  favors  for  anything  they  need.  But  I  would 
like  to  remind  you  that  the  first  ship  that  reached  America  bearing 
food  in  your  dire  extremity  came  from  Ireland.  And  I  should  like 
to  ask  Americans  to  take  care  that  during  the  coming  winter,  which 
is  apt  to  be  very  hard  in  Ireland — to  see  to  it  that  the  women  and 
children  do  not  suffer.  The  men  can  suffer.  And  the  women  can 
suffer.  But  it  is  hard  to  see  the  children  suffer.  And  we  do  not 
want  our  people  to  be  so  oppressed  by  hunger  and  cold  that  their 
spirit  can  be  broken  and  they  can  be  forced  to  surrender. 

And  remember  that  there  is  no  religious  difference  in  Ireland 
dividing  the  people,  and  never  will  be.  There  is  no  division  in  our 
ranks. 

I  ask  you,  when  you  hear  England's  lies  about  us,  not  to  believe 
her  until  you  have  heard  our  side  of  it.  Let  us  tell  you  the  truth. 
I  have  told  you  the  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  and  all  that  I 
have  said  can  be  verified  from  papers  and  state  documents.  I  have 
not  told  the  whole  of  the  truth,  because  it  would  take  many  weeks 
to  tell  you  all  that  we  have  had  to  suffer.  But  I  ask  you  to  send  us 
relief  now,  and  I  ask  the  Americans,  the  anti-Irish  American  citi- 
zens, not  to  believe  all  the  lies  England  tells  about  us  until  they 
hear  our  side  of  the  question. 

CRITICAL  SUFFERING  CAUSED  BY  DESTRUCTION 

OF  CROPS,  BURNING  OF  CREAMERIES,  AND 

CLOSING  OF  SHOPS 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  MacSwiney,  may  I  ask  you  a  question 
or  two? 

A.     Certainly. 

Q.  Miss  MacSwiney,  do  you  know  of  any  specific  case  of  suffer- 
ing in  Ireland,  and  of  denial  of  food  or  destruction  of  crops  by 
English  authorities? 

A.  Oh,  well,  in  every  town  they  have  devastated  they  have  de- 
stroyed food,  and  the  crops  on  the  farms  all  around  the  county  of 
Cork.  And  they  have,  as  I  think  you  have  heard  this  morning, 
they  have  destroyed  the  town  of  Tralee. 

Q.     We  want  to  be  accurate.    Just  what  do  you  know  about  that? 

A.  At  Tralee  there  was  someone  shot,  and  the  police  were  boy- 
cotted— the  police  were  not  spoken  to.      Decent  people  no  longer 


339 

speak  to  them  any  more,  anyway.  And  the  Black-and-Tans  closed 
all  the  shops. 

Q.     All  the  shops? 

A.  Yes,  the  bakeries  and  the  milk  shops,  so  that  milk  could  not 
be  got  for  the  little  babies.  The  shops  were  not  allowed  to  be 
opened,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  stood  there  and  refused  point  blank 
to  allow  the  women  and  children  to  get  the  food  that  was  waiting 
for  them.  They  eventually  found  they  were  carrying  it  too  far, 
and  on  the  fourth  day  they  allowed  certain  women  to  buy  milk  and 
bread — and  nothing  else.  And  I  know  this:  that  the  excuse  they 
gave  was  a  shortage  of  food  in  the  town,  and  that  what  was  there 
was  necessary  for  them,  and  they  came  and  got  the  food,  and  the 
women  and  children  had  to  do  without  it.  That  was  their  excuse — 
that  they  needed  the  food  and  the  rebels  had  to  do  without. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  How  do  they  destroy  the  crops? 

A.  They  burn  them.  They  burn  the  hay  and  the  corn,  and  they 
set  fire  to  everything  that  is  growing.  They  set  fire  to  the  cream- 
eries, and  of  course  the  creameries  arc  a  tremendous  loss  through- 
out the  country.  Hundreds  and  thousands  of  men  have  been  thrown 
out  of  employment  by  the  burning  of  the  creameries.  And  now 
those  men  have  no  employment. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  of  the  total  number  of  creameries 
that  were  burned? 

A.  I  do  not  know  the  total  number,  but  in  the  week  before  I  left 
Ireland  there  were  nine  creameries  and  one  hundred  one  farms 
burned. 

Q.     How  many  all  told  all  over  Ireland? 

Chairman  Howe:  It  was  reported  last  week  that  thirty  creameries 
had  been  burned. 

The  Witness:  Thirty  creameries.  That  would  be  most  of  the 
large  creameries  in  the  country.  You  can  get  the  exact  number. 
The  Irish  authorities  issue  the  figures  every  week,  and  you  can  get 
them  there,  I  am  sure. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  We  have  them.    We  can  give  them  to  you. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  So  the  destruction  of  homes  and  the  burning 
of  farms  and  creameries  and  mills  has  caused  a  condition  of  unem- 
ployment and  a  shortage  of  food  that  has  reached  a  critical  state? 

ENGLISH  AUTHORITIES  PREVENT  TRANSPORT  OF 
FOOD  TO  CITIES 

A.  Yes,  absolutely.  Another  thing  that  I  would  like  to  stress  is 
this:  that  when  the  railroads  began  to  be  stopped,  we  made  pro- 
visions for  the  transportation  of  food  into  the  cities  so  that  there 


340 

would  be  no  shortage,  for  with  the  exception  of  flour,  we  have 
plenty  of  food  in  the  country.  We  had  arranged  for  the  transpor- 
tation of  food  by  motor  car.  And  they  made  a  new  law  that  no 
motor  car  could  travel  more  than  twenty  miles  from  the  home  of 
its  owner,  and  no  motor  car  could  be  out  other  than  between  the 
hours  of  eight  o'clock  and  six  in  the  evening,  and  no  motor  car 
over  a  certain  weight  could  be  owned  by  anybody  except  the  British 
Government.  Of  course  the  British  Government  would  not  say, 
"We  will  make  laws  to  prevent  your  rationing  food,  so  that  you  will 
starve  in  the  cities."  But  they  prevented  it  by  this  law.  Of  course, 
anybody  can  see  that  you  cannot  bring  food  from  within  twenty 
miles  of  a  great  city.  All  these  things  are  done  to  keep  up  starva- 
tion. And  we  do  need  America's  help  to  keep  off  starvation  from 
our  people.  And  I  think,  on  the  mere  ground  of  humanity,  that 
surely  in  the  interests  of  humanity  you  should  take  care  that  no 
people  like  ours  should  be  allowed  to  starve  during  the  coming 
winter.  And  certainly  our  people  will  be  starved,  absolutely 
starved  during  the  coming  winter,  without  your  help. 

AMERICA   NOT  ASKED   TO   GO   TO   WAR   FOR   IRE- 
LAND BUT  TO  PREVENT  STARVATION 

I  want  to  say  again,  that  when  I  said  yesterday  that  you  should 
not  have  sheathed  your  sword  until  all  of  the  small  nations,  includ- 
ing Ireland,  had  their  independence,  do  not  think  that  from  any- 
thing I  said  I  mean  that  you  should  go  to  war  on  account  of  Ireland. 
England  is  your  ally.  She  would  be  your  natural  ally  if  she  would 
behave  with  justice.  But  what  I  ask  of  you  is  this:  you  have  your 
Red  Cross  work;  you  have  your  charitable  hearts;  you  have  money 
enough,  even  among  the  anti-Irish  population  in  this  country;  and 
I  ask  you  to  keep  our  women  and  children  from  starving  to  death. 
We  know  perfectly  well  that  you  will  not  go  to  war  over  Ireland, 
unless  there  is  some  other  issue  between  you  and  England. 

I  thank  you  for  the  patience  with  which  you  have  listened  to  me 
for  the  past  two  days — for  a  day  and  a  half — as  you  have  done; 
and  I  thank  the  American  Commission  for  what  you  have  done  for 
Ireland  in  the  interests  of  humanity  and  in  the  interests  of  truth. 
I  thank  you  very  much. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  There  are  four  or  five  witnesses  who  have  come 
in  now  on  this  late  train.     And  I  was  going  to  suggest  that  if  you 


341 

would  want  to  adjourn  now.  that  we  could  finish  up  their  testimony 
tomorrow. 

I  The  Commissioners  confer. ) 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  reconvene  at  this  place  to- 
morrow morning  at  nine-thirty. 

Senator  Walsh:  Are  you  able  to  produce  any  evidence  as  to  who 
the  murderers  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were,  the  circumstances 
of  his  murder,  and  in  what  way.  if  at  all,  the  British  authorities 
were  connected  with  that  murder? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  I  see  what  you  want.  I  think  it  is  im- 
portant enough  to  do  it  in  a  direct  way.  And  we  will  undertake 
to  do  it. 

FIRST-HAND  EVIDENCE  AND  NOT  HEARSAY 
DESIRED  BY  COMMISSION 

At  this  hearing  I  want  to  say  this:  We  are  in  communication  with 
vour  secretary  and  chairman,  and  they  said  they  wanted  to  hear 
Mrs.  MacSwiney  and  Miss  MacSwiney  first;  and  we  notified  your 
secretary  that  we  thought  that  some  of  these  ex-R.  I.  C.  men  ar<> 
here  in  this  country  and  could  be  produced  before  you.  From  what 
your  chairman  said,  I  take  it  that  you  do  not  want  anything  long 
and  detailed;  so  we  have  sought  to  find  only  witnesses  who  have 
actual  personal  experiences  to  tell.  And  we  will  have  these  wit- 
nesses from  time  to  time,  and  after  consultation  with  you  we  can 
present  them. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  While  Mr.  Frank  Walsh  is  here,  I  would 
like  to  raise  a  point  for  his  advice  on  the  matter.  We  have  got  some 
very  remarkable  testimony  from  Mrs.  and  Miss  MacSwiney.  Would 
it  be  in  any  degree  unfair  to  further  witnesses  to  ask  that  they 
confine  themselves  to  those  matters  of  which  they  have  fairly  first- 
hand knowledge  of  the  facts?  I  say  fairly  first-hand,  because  I 
know  the  impossibility  of  making  that  absolute.  You  see,  we  have 
got  a  very  vivid  picture  now  of  the  situation  as  a  whole,  but  what 
we  need  are  specific  instances  of  actual  deeds. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  understand  that  from  this  Committee's  first 
hearings,  that  they  would  not  carry  on  these  hearings  according  to 
strict  rules  of  evidence,  as  that  would  be  followed  in  court;  that 
they  wished,  first,  to  have  first-hand  testimony;  and,  secondly,  testi- 
mony from  persons  who  were  so  close  to  events  that  they  would 
have  similar  to  first-hand  testimony,  and  put  the  Commission  on  the 
track  of  what  actually  occurred.     Of  course,  the  idea  was  to  avoid 


342 

hearsay  testimony;  and  the  witnesses  we  are  going  to  put  on  will, 
I  think,  reach  that  result  very  easily. 

Senator  Norris:  Will  your  witnesses  tomorrow  know  about  the 
murder  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  ? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  think  that  I  can  find  such  witnesses. 

Senator  Walsh:  Perhaps  Miss  MacSwiney  could  do  that,  or  Mrs. 
MacSwiney,  because  her  husband  followed  him. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  This  afternoon  I  was  asked  to  limit  her  testi- 
mony to  certain  things. 

Senator  Norris:  But  if  she  was  present  at  the  coroner's  inquest, 
she  can  testify  with  first-hand  knowledge. 

Adjournment  4:45  p.  m. 


SECOND  HEARINGS 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Session  Three 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  at  the  Hotel  La  Fayette,  Friday, 
December  10,  1920,  9:50  a.  m. 

Chairman  Howe:  At  the  suggestion  of  Senator  Norris,  we  have 
asked  Miss  MacSwiney  to  come  back  this  morning  to  make  a  state- 
ment relative  to  the  Mayor  MacCurtain  matter.  Miss  MacSwiney 
was  at  the  inquest,  we  understand. 

Mr.  Malone,  some  of  the  Commission  have  to  leave  this  afternoon 
at  three  o'clock,  and  if  you  will,  arrange  your  witnesses  so  that  we 
can  get  through  today. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone  (of  counsel):  Will  the  Commission  sit  to- 
morrow, Mr.  Howe? 

Chairman  Howe :  We  very  much  Avant  to  get  through  today  if 
possible. 

TESTIMONY   ON    RECALL   OF   MISS    MARY 
MACSWINEY  CONCERNING  THE  MURDER 
OF  LORD  MAYOR  THOMAS  MAC- 
CURTAIN  OF  CORK 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  How  long  have  you  known  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain? 

A.  I  have  known  him  intimately  from  the  beginning  of  the 
Volunteer  Movement. 

Q.     Did  you  know  him  in  a  personal  as  well  as  a  political  way? 

A.  Yes.  Very  much  more  politically  at  first,  but  I  was  after- 
wards very  closely  associated  with  his  family. 

Q.     How  old  was  he  when  he  died? 

A.     I  think  he  was  thirty-six. 

Q.     And  he  was  a  friend  of  your  brother's? 

A.  Yes,  very.  They  were  very  intimate  friends  and  very  devoted 
to  each  other.  My  brother  had  a  very  great  admiration  for  him. 
and  I  know  that  he  had  a  great  admiration  for  my  brother, 

343 


344 

AN  OFFICER  IN  THE  REPUBLICAN  ARMY 

Q.  What  was  the  position  of  Mayor  MacCurtain  in  the  Repub- 
lican forces? 

A.  He  was  brigade  commandant;  that  is  what  would  correspond 
to  a  brigadier  general. 

Q.     And  your  brother  was  next  in  command? 

A.  Right.  My  brother  became  chief  commandant  when  Mayor 
MacCurtain  was  murdered,  as  he  also  succeeded  him  as  Lord  Mayor 
of  the  city. 

THE  MACCURTAIN  FAMILY 

Q.  I  think  it  will  facilitate  matters  before  the  Commission  very 
much  if  you  will  describe  the  conditions  leading  up  to  this  murder, 
and  the  situation  of  his  family,  and  state  briefly  the  testimony  you 
heard  given   at  the  inquest. 

A.  As  I  said.  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  a  man  of  about 
thirty-six  at  the  time  of  his  death.  He  had  a  wife  and  five  children 
at  the  time.  The  eldest  was  ten  years  of  age  when  he  was  murdered. 
I  may  say  that  five  months  after  his  death,  his  wife  gave  birth  to 
two  other  children,  twins,  who  were  dead  when  they  were  born. 

CLOSELY  ASSOCIATED  WITH   LORD  MAYOR  MAC- 

SWINEY  IN  POLITICAL  ACTIVITIES  AND 

IMPRISONMENTS 

He  was  a  man  of  very  sweet  disposition,  always  a  pleasant  laugh 
and  kind  word,  even  to  those  with  whom  he  differed  most  politi- 
cally. He  was  also  a  very  good,  shrewd  business  man.  He  did  his 
best  to  smooth  over  matters  in  Cork  when  Mr.  Redmond,  as  1 
explained  the  other  day,  caused  a  sort  of  split  in  the  Volunteer 
movement.  He,  of  course,  remained  on  the  right  side,  and  he  did 
a  great  deal  to  avoid  any  bitterness.  He  was  a  particular  friend 
of  my  brother  for  years.  They  had  been  associated  in  the  Gaelic- 
League  movement  and  in  the  industrial  movement.  But  whereas 
my  brother  never  joined  the  Sinn  Fein  group,  as  I  explained  the 
first  day  of  my  evidence,  Mr.  MacCurtain  did.  He  joined  the 
Arthur  Griffith  movement.  But  of  course  there  is  no  such  thing 
now  as  the  constitutional  Sinn  Fein.  But  when  in  1905  the  move- 
ment was  first  started,  it  was  a  constitutional  movement,  and  Mr. 
MacCurtain  did  belong  to  it.  I  did.  not  know  him  then.  But  my 
brother  neY<?r  belonged  to  it. 


345 

In  the  troubled  times  in  Ireland,  from  1916  onward,  they  were 
very  closely  associated.  All  through  that  week  of  the  rising  they 
were  together  at  what  we  called  the  Volunteer  Hall,  the  headquar- 
ters of  "the  Irish  Volunteer  Army  in  the  city.  They  were  through 
all  of  the  troubles  up  to  that  time  together,  and  they  both  received 
a  certain  amount  of  condemnation  from  a  certain  section  of  the 
people  who  thought  that  they  should  have  had  a  rising  in  the  city, 
even  though  every  individual  man  was  shot  down.  Of  course  their 
attitude  was  that  the  thing  that  was  best  for  Ireland  was  the  thing 
to  be  thought  of.  and  not  the  individual  glory  of  losing  your  life, 
which  is  a  comparatively  easy  thing  to  do. 

Then  Mayor  MacCurtain,  like  my  brother,  had  spent  most  of  his 
time  in  prison.  He  was  not  in  prison  so  much  or  so  long;  but  in 
1916  he  was  in  prison  with  him  until  Christmas;  and  in  1917  he 
was  deported,  and  they  returnee!  home  to  Cork  at  the  same  time. 
I  do  not  think  he  was  arrested  in  October,  1917,  the  time  of  my 
brother's  first  hunger  strike.  I  am  not  quite  certain,  but  I  do  not 
think  so.  But  he  was  arrested  in  1917,  in  February,  and  they  were 
in  and  out  of  prison  like  that.  It  is  a  sort  of  natural  thing  to  be 
spending  half  of  your  time  in  prison.  And  he  was  continually  on 
the  run.  Mr.  MacCurtain  had  a  flour  and  mill  business.  He  dealt 
on  the  wholesale  scale.  And  that  business  was  injured  by  his  fre- 
quent imprisonments.  But  when  he  came  out  of  prison  in  1918  he 
started  his  factory.  Of  course  they  were  always  interested  in  the 
development  everywhere  of  Irish  industries.  And  he  started  an 
industrv  and  got  some  machines  together,  and  employed  a  number 
of  people  for  the  manufacture  of  underclothing.  That  was  going 
ahead  splendidly  when  he  was  made  Lord  Mayor.  And  of  course 
he  was  only  inaugurated  a  very  short  time  when  he  was  murdered. 

ELECTION  OF  THOMAS  MACCURTAIN  AS  LORD 
MAYOR  OF  CORK 

Now,  Mr.  MacCurtain  was  made  Lord  Mayor  in  January,  after  the 
municipal  elections,  which  resulted  in  large  Sinn  Fein  majorities  all 
over  the  country. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    January  of  what  year? 

A.  January,  1920.  The  councillors  were  elected  to  the  corpora- 
tion, and  then  the  new  corporation  elected  the  Lord  Mayor.  He  was 
unanimously  chosen.  The  first  thing  that  the  new  corporation  did 
was  to  declare  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann.  The  keeping  of  that 
resolution  declaring  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann,  which  is  the  Irish 
Parliament,  was  one  of  the  charges  brought  against  my  brother  when 
he  was  tried  in  the  August  following. 


346 

HIS  EXCEPTIONAL  ADMINISTRATIVE  ABILITY 

I  alluded  to  the  genial  disposition  of  Mr.  MacCurtain.  And  at 
the  same  time  he  was  a  very  competent  and  capable  business  man. 
When  he  was  elected  Lord  Mayor,  he  won  golden  opinions  from  his 
opponents  immediately  for  the  masterly  way  he  grasped  the  affairs 
of  the  corporation,  and  the  businesslike  attitude  he  took  toward  it. 
And  the  attitude  not  only  of  the  Lord  Mayor,  but  of  the  whole  cor- 
poration, that  the  business  of  the  city  should  be  carried  on  in  an 
efficient  way  without  any  corruption  whatever.  They  were  deter- 
mined that  economy  should  be  practiced  in  the  city.  Wherever  you 
have  a  society  like  ours,  a  social  system  where  you  have  an  alien 
people  imposing  its  will  on  the  people,  you  have  a  great  deal  of 
inefficiency, — worthless  people  pressing  you  for  jobs.  I  am  quite 
sure  that  the  American  people  know  the  meaning  of  the  word  job. 
And  these  inefficient  people  are  put  into  positions,  and  a  great  deal 
of  money  is  squandered.  The  new  Republican  organization  made 
up  its  mind  that  this  inefficiency  should  be  destroyed  forever.  The 
salary  of  the  Lord  Mayor  was  six  hundred  pounds  a  year.  That  is 
not  a  very  large  amount,  and  it  is  not  as  big  as  it  looks,  because  I 
think  about  one-half  of  it  had  to  go  to  certain  charities.  Indeed,  so 
much  had  to  be  spent  in  this  way  that,  although  the  salary  was  origi- 
nally only  five  hundred  pounds  a  year,  one  hundred  pounds  was 
added  on  to  it,  because  there  were  two  additional  charities  to  which 
the  Lord  Mayor  was  expected  to  contribute  fifty  pounds  a  year  each. 
But  the  new  council  decided  that  that  should  go,  as  the  first  step  in 
the  direction  of  economy.  The  Lord  Mayor  also  did  a  great  deal  in 
the  way  of  entertainment,  and  always  began  the  year  with  what  was 
known  as  the  Lord  Mayor's  banquet.  It  was  decided  that  that  should 
go,  and  there  should  be  no  extravagance  whatever.  Everything  nec- 
essary for  the  life  of  the  citizens  should  be  done.  But  it  was  not 
thought  necessary  for  the  Lord  Mayor  and  his  friends  to  sit  around 
a  table  eating  their  fill  and  drinking.  That  was  not  considered  nec- 
essary for  the  good  of  Ireland.  They  also  gave  pleasing  proof  that 
they  meant  what  they  said,  and  that  they  were  not  out  to  make  things 
easy  for  themselves  financially.  Another  rule  that  they  made  was 
that  the  members  of  the  corporation  were  expected  to  attend  to  their 
duties,  and  above  all  the  Lord  Mayor  was  expected  to  attend  to  his 
duties.  Some  Lord  Mayors  had  gone  to  the  city  hall  to  perform 
their  duties  perhaps  three  or  four  hours  out  of  the  week.  The  new 
Lord  Mayor  undertook  to  do  differently.  It  was  rather  destructive 
of  the  Lord  Mayor's  business,  but  they  determined  that  was  what 
had  to  be  done. 


347 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  So  that  they  cut  clown  his  salary  and  in- 
creased his  work? 

A.     Yes.  exactly,  that  is  what  they  did. 

WINS  AFFECTION  OF  POLITICAL  OPPONENTS  BY 
HIS   FAIRNESS  AND   ABILITY 

I  should  like  to  stress  the  wonderfully  good  influence  that  Lord 
Mayor  MacCurtain  had  on  the  Unionist  members  of  the  corpora- 
tion. They  expected  to  have  a  very  bad  time  of  it.  They  found  that 
they  got  just  as  good  treatment  as  his  colleagues.  There  were  two 
representatives  of  the  Federation  of  Discharged  Soldiers  and  Sailors. 
Owing  to  the  very  large  number  of  men  that  Cork  had  in  the  Eng- 
lish army  before  and  during  the  war,  these  men  were  able  under  the 
proportional  representation  system  to  send  two  members  to  the  cor- 
poration. It  did  not  follow  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  they  were  anti- 
Irish, — as  a  fact  they  were  not;  but  they  wanted  to  get  what  they 
wanted  for  the  former  soldiers  and  sailors  from  the  Republican 
Government.  They  expected  to  have  a  very  bad  time  from  the  Gov- 
ernment that  was  opposed  to  the  English  army.  As  a  matter  of  fact 
they  did  not.  They  found  out  that  they  were  accepted  as  good  citi- 
zens, and  expected  to  cooperate  for  the  good  of  the  whole  popula- 
tion. All  these  classes  of  the  population  were  greatly  touched  by 
the  attitude  of  the  Lord  Mayor  and  the  other  members  of  the  cor- 
poration towards  them.  And  they  showed  it,  and  I  don't  believe 
there  could  have  been  a  better  example  of  that  than  the  way  that  the 
whole  of  Cork  rallied  around  the  Lord  Mayor  at  the  time  of  his 
death.  Everyone  in  Cork  was  of  the  same  mind.  There  was  a  spe- 
cial meeting  of  the  corporation  called  on  the  day  of  his  death,  and 
every  Unionist  member  spoke;  and  I  may  as  well  tell  you  that  at 
that  meeting,  at  which  I  was  present,  one  of  the  bitterest  anti-Irish 
and  pro-Unionist  people  in  the  corporation  actually  cried  when  he 
was  seconding  the  vote  of  sympathy  to  Mrs.  MacCurtain  and  the 
condemnation  of  the  cruel  action.  At  that  time,  of  course,  there  was 
no  question  as  to  who  had  committed  the  murder.  There  was  a  gen- 
eral outburst  of  feeling  on  the  part  of  the  whole  city.  And  I  could 
read  you  many  examples  of  the  nice  things  that  were  said  about  him 
by  the  Unionists.  Some  of  us  had  the  idea  that  it  was  because  of 
the  rapidity  with  which  he  was  winning  over  the  hearts  of  the  Union- 
ists and  impressing  upon  them  the  fact  that  they  were  all  Irishmen 
together  and  should  work  for  Ireland's  good,  and  the  fact  that  he 
was  such  a  thoroughly  practical  business  man, — you  see,  I  am  stress- 
ing that  because  we  are  called  and  have  been  called  for  years  im- 


348 

practical  idealists;  we  have  lovely  theories,  but  we  have  no  practical 
conception  of  business  matters  at  all;  that  we  have  no  idea  of  how 
to  run  a  state  or  run  a  city,  and  that  we  are  always  up  in  the  moon. 
But  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  showed  that  he  had  such  a  practical 
grasp  of  business  matters  that  he  opened  the  eyes  of  a  great  many 
people  who  had  never  come  into  personal  contact  with  Irish  Re- 
publican people  before.  And  he  had  practically  within  a  month 
converted  the  whole  corporation  into  Republicans.  Even  the  resolu- 
tion of  the  corporation  pledging  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann  got  prac- 
tically no  opposition. 

One  of  the  things  the  corporation  had  to  do  was  to  send  up  the 
name  of  someone  for  sheriff  to  the  High  Commissioner.  The  cor- 
poration was  considering  whether  they  should  send  up  the  name  of  a 
man  who  had  been  in  prison  for  one  and  a  half  years  on  a  false 
charge.  They  had  never  succeeded  in  getting  a  jury  to  convict  him. 
The  most  they  could  do  was  to  get  a  jury  that  would  disagree, — 
they  got  enough  Unionists  on  the  jury  for  that.  Of  course  he  did 
not  defend  himself.  You  understand  that  we  Republicans  do  not 
defend  ourselves  in  the  English  courts.  We  do  not  recognize  their 
courts.  This  matter  of  the  appointment  of  McMurray,  who  was  in 
prison  on  a  false  charge,  was  a  question  of  sending  his  name  up  to 
the  Lord  Lieutenant  as  high  sheriff.  That  would,  of  course,  have 
been  a  kind  of  act  of  contempt  towards  them.  We  would  send  up 
as  the  man  who  would  control  the  prisons  the  man  whom  they  were 
keeping  in  prison  falsely.  But  we  decided  that  that  would  be  an 
act  below  us.  The  Republican  members  of  the  corporation  decided 
that  they  would  not  even  in  contempt  of  England  and  English  law 
send  up  the  name  of  a  man  who,  if  he  was  elected,  would  have  to 
take  the  oath  of  allegiance  to  the  English  Government,  and  so  they 
did  not  send  up  any  name.  One  of  the  members  of  the  corporation 
suggested  that  they  should  not  let  go  by  default  the  privilege  that 
they  had  not  long  ago  gained,  the  privilege  of  nominating  the  man 
for  high  sheriff.  But  they  ignored  that  member  and  refused  to  make 
any  appointment.  Sir  John  Scott,  who  was  the  Unionist  who  pro- 
posed that  they  should  send  up  three  names,  did  not  even  get  among 
the  Unionists  of  the  group  a  second  to  his  motion. 

Q.  Miss  MacSwiney,  you  started  to  say  something  about  the  be- 
lief that  Mayor  MacCurtain's  efficiency  and  his  popularity  and  his 
ability  to  win  over  the  Unionists  of  the  opposition  was  a  significant 
reason  for  his  death? 

Chairman  Howe:  Can  you  begin  right  there,  so  that  we  can  get, 
through  the  principal  facts  right  down  to  the  inquest,  please? 


349 

MURDERED  BY  MIDNIGHT  RAIDERS  IN  PRESENCE 
OF  WIFE 

A.  That,  of  course,  couldn't  be  proved,  but  it  is  very  reasonable 
to  suppose.  But  he,  of  course,  had  been  on  the  run,  although  he  had 
been  sleeping  at  home. — a  great  deal  more  than  some  of  the  others 
like  my  brother.  He  was  there,  I  think,  because  he  had  a  great  deal 
of  business  to  attend  to,  and  he  had  a  small  family,  and  his  wife  was 
not  well.  He  happened  to  be  home  on  the  night  of  the  nineteenth  of 
March,  1920.  A  knock  came  at  the  door.  It  was  between  one  and 
a  quarter-past,  or  one  and  half-past,  anyway,  in  the  morning.  As 
usual,  they  came  to  the  conclusion  that  it  was  the  military  or  the 
police,  and  he  wanted  to  go  down,  but  his  wife  would  not  let  him. 
She  put  her  head  out  of  the  window  and  asked,  "Who  is  there?" 
and  the  answer  came  back,  "Come  down  quick."  The  plan  is,  ot 
course,  not  to  let  the  men  go  down  and  open  the  door,  for  they 
would  be  shot  on  the  spot;  so  usually  the  women  go  down  and  open 
the  door  to  let  the  man  escape  if  possible.  Before  she  got  down- 
stairs, the  door  was  smashed  in.  About  six  men  smashed  their  way 
in,  and  two  of  them  gripped  her  and  pushed  her  up  against  the  wall, 
and  one  of  them  said,  "Hold  that  woman!"  And  the  others  rushed 
upstairs. 

I  want  you  to  know  this  thing:  they  went  immediately  to  Mr.  Mac- 
Curtain's  room.  There  was  no  hesitation  at  all.  And  that  is  re- 
markable in  a  house  like  MacCurlain's,  where  the  steps  are  very 
peculiarly  placed.  You  would  have  to  know  the  house  very  well  to 
know  where  you  were  going.  You  had  to  enter  through  the  porch. 
The  stairs  were  on  a  side  passage  to  the  left.  There  was  a  very 
funny  twist  in  them  towards  the  top,  and  you  could  not  possibly  find 
vour  way  about  the  house  unless  you  knew  it  well.  They  made  no 
hesitation.  They  went  straight  to  his  room  and  called,  "Come  out. 
Curtain."  Mrs.  MacCurtain,  who  was  downstairs,  heard  the  baby 
cry  and  she  begged  to  go  upstairs  and  bring  the  baby  down.  They 
would  not  let  her.  She  pleaded  with  them.  She  said  they  had 
mothers  and  babies  themselves;  and  they  would  not  let  her  go. 
Then  the  shots  rang  out,  as  soon  as  they  had  yelled  out,  "Come  out, 
Curtain."  He  came  to  the  door  and  they  shot  him.  He  was  killed 
by  three  revolver  shots.  The  baby  then  ceased  to  cry, — perhaps  it 
was  taken  by  its  aunt;  and  the  poor  mother  thought  that  the  babv 
was  shot  too.  She  was  in  a  fainting  condition.  Meanwhile  the  six 
men  came  downstairs  and  went  out.  The  sister  upstairs  had  run  to 
the  rescue  of  the  Lord  Mayor,  only  to  find  out  that  he  was  bleeding 


350 

and  in  a  dying  condition.  Mrs.  MacCurtain  ran  out  of  the  house 
crying,  "For  God's  sake,  a  priest  and  a  doctor!" 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  One  minute:  you  are  testifying  as  to  facts 
that  you  heard  brought  out  at  the  inquest? 

A.  No,  these  are  the  facts  that  I  heard  at  the  house  when  I 
visited  them. 

Q.     Were  these  facts  brought  out  at  the  inquest? 

A.  Yes,  all  these  facts  were  brought  out  at  the  inquest.  If  I  am 
going  too  much  into  detail,  tell  me. 

The  main  thing  brought  out  at  the  inquest  is  that  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain  was  murdered  at  quarter  past  one;  that  there  were  shots 
fired  from  outside  the  house  when  the  brother  put  his  head  out  and 
called  for  help;  that  there  is  a  police  barracks  within  fifty  yards 
from  the  house;  that  nobody  in  those  barracks  could  possibly  help 
from  hearing  those  shots,  but  not  a  policeman  appeared  from  those 
barracks  until  eight  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

STREETS  APPROACHING  HOUSE  HELD  UP   BY 
ARMED  PATROLS 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Was  it  brought  out  at  the  inquest  that 
there  had  been  a  zone  around  the  house? 

A.  Yes,  there  were  four  roads  leading  to  that  particular  street. 
Those  roads  were  held  by  parties  of  armed  men.  One  of  those  roads 
was  held  by  men  who  were  in  police  uniform.  Two  men  testified 
that  they  wanted  to  get  to  their  homes  through  those  streets,  but  that 
they  were  not  allowed  by  policemen  in  uniform  to  proceed.  All  the 
other  men  were  not  in  uniform.  All  the  men  who  entered  Mr.  Mac- 
Curtain's  house  that  night  had  their  faces  blackened.  They  were 
not  in  uniform. 

Q.     When  was  this  zone  established? 

A.     This  zone  was  established  about  a  quarter  past  one. 

Q.     Was  that  established  at  the  inquest? 

A.  Yes,  by  railroad  men  who  were  going  home  and  watchmen 
who  were  leaving  their  homes.  It  was  established  that  this  zone  was 
established,  that  a  half-dozen  men  were  stopped  and  put  with  their 
backs  to  the  wall  until  the  murder  was  completed,  and  then  they 
were  told  to  stay  where  they  were  for  half  an  hour  or  they  would  be 
shot. 

POLICE  RECORDS  JUGGLED 

Q.  Is  it  not  also  true  that  it  was  brought  out  at  the  inquest  that 
the  records  of  the  goings  and  comings  of  police  had  not  been  kept 
for  a  week  or  two  before  and  after  the  shooting? 


351 

A.  Yes,  on  the  night  of  the  tenth  of  March  there  had  been  shots 
fired  at  a  policeman.  We  had  a  night  of  terror  in  the  city.  The 
police  shot  people,  shot  people  of  the  city.  They  went  looking  for 
men  on  the  run,  who  would  have  been  shot  like  Mr.  MacCurtain  if 
they  had  been  found.  They  ran  amuck,  as  we  say.  And  then  they 
went  back  to  their  barracks.  Of  course,  the  rules  of  the  barracks 
are  that  every  time  that  ammunition  is  taken  or  a  gun  is  taken  off 
the  racks  in  the  barracks,  it  must  be  put  clown  in  the  books.  No 
account  whatever  was  put  down  for  the  taking  of  guns  and  ammu- 
nition on  the  tenth  of  March.  It  was  acknowledged  that  the  police 
did  go  out  that  night  and  did  shootings,  and  it  is  acknowledged  that 
no  record  whatever  was  kept. 

Q.     This  was  the  week  before  the  shooting  of  the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.  Yes,  it  was  the  tenth,  a  week  before.  The  night  of  the  tenth 
of  March  the  police  went  amuck  through  the  streets  looking  for 
Volunteers  to  shoot,  and  breaking  windows  and  shooting  several 
civilians. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  was  after  an  attempt  to  shoot 
a  policeman.     Was  any  of  them  killed? 

A.     No,  one  was  wounded,  but  no  one  killed. 

Q.  Was  the  shooting  of  the  Lord  Mayor  a  reprisal  for  the  shoot- 
ing of  that  policeman? 

A.  I  think  the  police  were  anxious  to  make  it  appear  so,  but  of 
course  they  never  acknowledged  that  it  was  done  by  them;  they  tried 
to  pretend  that  it  was  not  done  by  the  police,  but  the  evidence  was 
irrefutable. 

Q.     Commissioner   Maurer:    Miss   MacSwiney,   you   were   at  the 


LORD  MAYOR'S  HOUSEHOLD  ABSOLUTELY 
UNARMED 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  idea  has  come  to  me,  not  only  in  the 
case  of  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  but  in  other  cases 
where  Black-and-Tans  had  broken  into  houses  in  the  night.  Why 
is  it  that  these  people  whom  they  come  to  kill  do  not  defend  them- 
selves? They  certainly  would  have  a  good  opportunity  to  shoot 
people  coming  into  their  homes.  For  instance,  why  did  not  the  Lord 
Mayor,  coming  out  of  his  room  as  he  did,  shoot  them? 

A.     Because  they  do  not  have  any  arms  in  the  house. 

Q.  Why  do  not  they  have?  The  Lord  Mayor  could  have,  could 
he  not? 


352 

A.  I  suppose  that  he  could.  But  a  married  man  like  that  who 
ventures  to  sleep  at  home  with  his  family  would  not  have  arms.  If 
he  slept  at  home  with  his  family  he  would  take  the  risk  of  escaping 
arrest  that  night.  If  they  found  a  revolver  in  the  house,  of  course 
he  would  be  imprisoned  for  two  years.  You  are  simply  placing 
yourself  in  their  hands  if  you  are  found  with  a  revolver,  because 
that  is  a  charge  that  they  punish  with  two  years'  imprisonment  at 
least.1 

Q.  No,  but  the  Lord  Mayor  knew  he  was  going  to  be  killed,  and 
the  idea  occurs  to  me  that  he  might  have  had  a  revolver  there  and 
sold  his  life  as  clearly  as  possible.  He  might  have  killed  three  or 
four  of  those  people  before  they  got  him. 

A.  No,  but  at  that  time  they  had  not  begun  to  shoot  clown  un- 
armed men.  It  was  the  first  time.  To  be  exact,  the  shooting  of  two 
unarmed  men  the  week  before  on  the  tenth  of  March  was  the  first 
event  of  that  kind.  From  that  time  on  no  man  ventured  to  sleep  in 
his  house  without  arms,  as  I  have  told  you  that  when  my  brother  did 
sleep  at  home  with  his  guard,  both  were  armed,  and  on  the  two  occa- 
sions when  we  had  an  alarm  at  the  door,  they  were  prepared  to  sell 
their  lives  dearly.  But  that  was  after  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain. 

IRISH   PURSUE   PACIFIC   POLICY   UNTIL   ENGLISH 
AGGRESSION  COMPELS   RESISTANCE 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Excuse  me  a  moment.  You  said  at  the  time 
of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain's  death  you  had  reached  the  stage  of 
armed  warfare.  Do  you  mean  that  up  to  that  time  the  campaign 
was  one  of  passive  resistance  and  not  of  open  warfare? 

A.  No,  we  do  not  make  the  claim  of  passive  resistance  after  1916. 
Up  to  1916  it  was  passive  resistance.  After  that  time  it  was  not. 
What  I  mean  is  that  while  the  Volunteers  carried  arms  and  were 
compelled  to  defend  themselves  against  open  force,  we  had  not 
reached  the  stage  where  the  British  Government  was  ordering  shoot- 
ings and  raids  and  the  killing  of  unarmed  men  at  sight.  Therefore, 
the  men  staying  at  home  did  not  carry  arms. 

Q.  My  impression  of  the  Irish  situation  is  that  you  had  an  open 
revolution  in  1916,  and  then  you  later  proceeded  to  hold  elections 
and  get  an  evidence  of  the  unmistakable  desire  of  the  people  of  Ire- 
land to  have  applied  to  them  the  principle  of  self-determination;  and 


1  Under  martial  law  regulations  recently  imposed  upon  the  principal 
counties  of  southern  Ireland,  the  death  penalty  is  inflicted  on  those  found 
with  firearms  or  ammunition  in  their  possession. 


353 

the  evidence  of  the  election  proved  that  you  wanted  that  principle 
applied  to  you  as  well  as  to  any  other  country.  And  that  you  then 
proceeded  to  do  all  of  the  things  necessary  to  set  up  a  republican 
form  of  government  without  bloodshed,  without  any  war,  without 
murders,  and  without  any  policy  of  destruction  of  human  life;  and 
that  that  policv  was  rigidly  carried  out  until  such  time  as  the  Eng- 
lish Government  began  to  send  soldiers  and  Blaek-and-Tans  into 
Ireland  and  began  to  interfere  with  the  functioning  of  that  govern- 
ment which  you  had  previously  established.  Is  my  idea  right  or 
wrong? 

A.  It  is  absolutely  right.  Senator,  with  our  true  policy;  if  you 
take  it  that  we  have  never  said  that  we  would  have  nothing  but  pas- 
sive resistance.  Up  to  the  time  that  the  campaign  of  the  enemy  be- 
gan, and  became  so  hot  against  us,  there  never  was  any  offensive, 
never  any  shooting,  on  our  part.  You  are  quite  right  that  we  wanted 
to  get  our  government  going.  If  our  courts  had  been  allowed  to 
meet  in  peace,  and  we  had  been  allowed  to  carry  on  the  municipal 
government  of  the  country,  we  would  have  been  quite  willing  to  do 
that  and  build  our  country  up,  and  then  have  turned  our  attention 
to  clearing  the  enemy  out,  peaceably  if  possible.  We  would  always 
have  done  it  pacifically  if  possible. 

Q.  Up  to  that  time  you  had  what  we  in  this  country  call  a  blood- 
less revolution.  You  had  by  the  ballot  box  and  by  talk  and  discus- 
sion brought  about  the  revolution  about  as  effectively  as  if  there  had 
been  bloodshed.  You  had  established  a  form  of  government,  and 
had  done  everything  you  could  to  drive  off  the  old  government  with- 
out the  shedding  of  blood.  So  that  so  far  there  was  no  force  and 
no  armed  activity.     Is  that  true? 

A.  Now,  I  want  to  be  exact.  As  I  told  you  yesterday  about  the 
little  incident  of  the   submarine   and  the  torpedo   boat   destroyer — 

Q.  But  did  any  Irish  Volunteers  or  anybody  else  murder  any 
policemen  or  anybody  else  up  to  the  time  of  the  murder  of  Mayor 
MacCurtain  ? 

A.     Oh,  we  destroyed  police  barracks  and  things  like  that. 

Q.     When? 

A.     In   1916. 

Q.  I  am  asking  you  if  there  came  a  time  when  you  had  without 
bloodshed  and  without  force  and  arms  established  a  functioning 
government,  and  whether  that  was  by  peaceful  methods. 

A.  From  the  beginning  of  1916  to  1919  the  Irish  Republican 
Army  was  in  existence  and  strengthening  itself  wherever  it  could. 

Q.     What  was  it  doing? 


354 

A.  Drilling  itself,  largely  in  secret.  Gathering  arms  whenever  it 
could. 

Q.     Anticipating  what? 

A.  Anticipating  exactly  what  happened:  that  as  soon  as  we 
showed  that  we  could  govern  our  country  without  them,  the  English 
would  take  very  good  care  that  we  did  not.  But  we  never  have  been 
guilty  of  an  act  of  aggression  and  never  would  have  been  if  Eng- 
land had  cleared  out  and  let  us  alone.  We  do  not  want  war  if  we 
can  possibly  get  out  of  it. 

Q.  What  your  American  friends  want  to  know,  my  opinion  is, 
at  least  those  who  have  extreme  pacifist  views,  is  how  long  you  were 
patient,  how  long  you  were  resisting  the  temptation  to  meet  murder 
with  murder  and  go  into  open  warfare. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:    Wait  just  a  moment. 

Senator  Walsh:  Just  a  moment,  please.  Some  of  the  best  articles 
that  have  been  written  in  America  on  the  Irish  question,  and  some 
of  the  things  that  interested  the  American  people  most,  were  about 
the  new  order  that  had  been  brought  about  as  to  the  things  accom- 
plished by  a  bloodless  revolution  and  passive  resistance.  Now,  if 
it  was  not  passive  resistance,  if  there  was  warfare  and  bloodshed, 
it  is  a  different  thing.     Do  you  get  my  idea? 

A.  Yes.  There  was  no  warfare  at  all  until  after  1916,  when  they 
began  to  interfere  with  our  government. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  When  did  the  open  warfare  begin, 
after  the  Easter  revolution  of  1916? 

A.  Well,  you  see  for  a  long  time  our  men  were  in  prison.  There 
was  a  period  of  inactivity. 

Q.     What  provoked  it  again?     What  started  it  up? 

A.  The  absolute  determination  of  England  to  prevent  us  doing 
anything.  There  was  no  more  open  warfare  until  after  1918.  After 
that  we  started  our  government  functioning.  For  twelve  months  I 
do  not  think  she  realized  that  we  were  building  up  an  extraordi- 
narily stable  government  in  the  country,  in  spite  of  the  fact  that  she 
had  an  army  of  occupation  there. 

Q.  That  was  the  same  election  that  elected  Lloyd  George  in 
England?  And  for  awhile  after  that  there  was  comparative  peace 
and  quiet? 

A.  Yes,  as  long  as  we  were  let  alone  to  build  up  our  own  gov- 
ernment there  was  peace  and  quiet. 

Q.     What  overt  act  started  things  up? 

A.  The  extraordinary  activity  of  the  English  secret  service, 
when  they  started  to  get  information  about  our  people  and  running 
them  down  and  gathering  information  about  our  courts.     I  cannot 


355 

say  the  exact  date.  1  want  to  be  scrupulously  exact,  and  do  not 
want  to  make  a  mistake.  With  us  the  whole  question  was  what  was 
best  for  the  movement.  We  had  no  scruples,  and  I  would  not  in- 
fluence my  pacifist  friends  for  a  moment.  We  had  no  scruples 
against  open  warfare  if  it  was  necessary  to  get  independence  for 
Ireland.  But  we  did  not  want  war.  We  put  it  off  as  long  as  pos- 
sible. It  may  have  been  1919  before  the  warfare  began.  I  am  in- 
clined to  think  it  was  before  the  burning  of  police  barracks.  But  if 
you  understood  how  fast  we  are  living  in  Ireland,  you  would  realize 
that  during  the  last  four  years  we  have  lived  through  a  generation. 
Before  a  Commission  like  this  I  want  to  be  very  exact  on  details, 
and  I  cannot  tell  you  the  exact  date  on  which  we  began  to  burn 
police  barracks. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  did  not  mean  the  exact  date.  I  think 
you  have  answered  what  I  want. 

The  Witness:  I  would  like  to  stress  that  we  have  been  living 
through  a  whole  generation  recently, — what  would  have  been  a 
whole  remarkable  epoch  in  an  ordinary  nation's  life;  that  we  have 
forgotten  one  thing  when  the  other  comes  on. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask  you  one  statement,  some- 
thing that  has  been  made  to  me  many  times  by  friends.  I  have 
friends  who  have  said  (of  course  we  are  not  pacifists  in  the  extreme 
sense,  but  the  history  of  the  recent  war  shows  that  going  to  war  is 
the  last  thing  that  you  want  to  do), — some  of  them  say,  "The  Irish 
were  making  good  progress.  They  had  a  government  and  courts 
functioning.  They  had  put  the  British  in  an  extremely  difficult  posi- 
tion in  the  eyes  of  the  world."  They  say,  "We  are  not  philosophical 
pacifists,  but  we  think  they  made  a  blunder  for  their  own  cause  when 
they  gave  Lloyd  George  a  chance  to  say  to  the  world  that  these  hor- 
rible things  were  being  done,  not  only  when  police  barracks  were 
burned,  because  that  was  only  the  loss  of  property,  but  police  were 
shot  and  law  and  order  broken."  In  other  words — we  are  talking 
in  a  family  way  here — I  think  you  will  find  not  only  the  philosophi- 
cal argument  but  the  practical  argument  that  you  had  made  such 
enormous  strides, — you  had  not  won  everything  but  you  had  made 
enormous  strides;  that  it  was  a  mistake  to  give  Lloyd  George  a 
chance  to  say  there  was  open  aggression  which  he  had  to  suppress, 
and  which  the  Irish  brought  about.  What  I  want  is  to  get  actual 
instances  where  there  was  actual  aggression  by  the  British  before 
Irish  violence  began. 

A.  Yes,  that  is  what  I  am  trying  to  bring  out.  Before  any  trouble 
started — 


356 

SPECIFIC    ACTS    OF    ENGLISH    AGGRESSION    PRO- 
VOKING IRISH  TO  FORCIBLE  RESISTANCE 

Commissioner  Thomas:  Yes,  I  know  that  argument,  but  I  am 
trying  to  get  you  to  state  specific  instances. 

The  Witness:  Well,  first  of  all  there  was  the  arrest  of  the  Sinn 
Fein  members. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Of  Parliament? 

A.  Yes,  of  Parliament.  They  put  all  the  Sinn  Fein  members  in 
jail,  but  that  did  not  matter,  because  the  remainder  were  Republi- 
cans, and  they  were  able  to  carry  on.  But  in  one  case — take  the 
Galway  County  Council — they  arrested  all  the  Sinn  Feiners,  and  with 
the  rest  they  could  do  what  they  liked,  and  called  it  the  Galway 
County  Council.  And  again,  they  hampered  the  courts.  They  know 
the  courts  gave  a  greater  impression  in  England  than  anything  else. 
You  know  the  daily  papers  gave  case  after  case  where  before  you 
had  the  police  courts,  you  now  have  the  Sinn  Fein  courts  giving 
judgments  that  the  people  eagerly  accept. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  they  begin  to  obliterate  these 
courts  before  the  violence  began? 

A.     They  did  it  not  openly  at  first,  but  secretly. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  It  is  important  to  inquire  about  the  time. 
Did  the  British  Government  begin  its  methods  of  obstruction  by  ar- 
rest or  otherwise  of  the  Sinn  Fein  leaders  before  there  was  anything 
done  by  the  Irish  against  British  officials? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  I  think  I  can  say  that  it  was,  but  I  cannot  give  you 
exact  dates.  I  think  I  must  have  said  something  about  1918,  when 
it  was  in  1919.  I  honestly  tell  you,  I  would  have  to  go  to  the  papers 
and  look  it  up.  We  are  living  at  a  great  rate,  and  I  would  have  to 
ask  your  consideration  on  that  point  of  view. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Miss  MacSwiney,  I  think  perhaps, — 
if  the  Chairman  and  the  others  think  this  is  a  correct  procedure, — 
it  seems  to  me  that  this  is  so  important  that  we  should  know  the 
facts  accurately.  I  am  wondering  if  you  would  collaborate  with 
Mr.  Malone  and  other  counsel  so  that  there  could  be  given  to  the 
Commission  an  exact  statement  of  the  course  of  events,  of  acts  of 
violence  by  the  British  government  before  there  was  trouble. 

A.  Yes,  I  would  like  to  do  that.  But  you  see,  if  I  make  one  mis- 
statement I  would  be  put  down  in  English  papers  as  telling  lies. 

Commissioner  Thomas:    Yes,  I  quite  appreciate  that. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  were  enumerating  the  things,  when  you 
were  interrupted,  the  things  that  you  said  provoked  the  Irish  people 
to  give  up  in  part  or  surrender  in  part  their  policy  of  passive  re- 


357 

sistance.  And  you  named  the  arrest  of  the  leaders  and  the  breaking 
up  of  the  courts.     Now,  what  other  things? 

A.  The  system  of  espionage  which  made  it  impossible  for  our 
civic  leaders  to  carry  out  any  work  for  the  good  of  the  country  with- 
out being  spied  on  by  the  English  police,  and  being  arrested  or  shot 
in  consequence.  The  system  of  spying  that  was  carried  on,  and  the 
fact  that  it  was  impossible  for  our  people  to  carry  on  the  govern- 
ment for  the  good  of  the  country,  brought  the  first  trouble  about. 
All  that  I  would  like  to  look  up, — dates  and  facts,  and  give  them  in 
writing  to  the  Commission. 

Commissioner  Addams:  That  would  be  very  kind  of  you,  Miss 
MacSwiney. 

Commissioner  Thomas:    Thank  you  very  much. 

The  Witness:    I  would  be  glad  to  do  that.1 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  I  hope  in  doing  that  you  will  not  think  that 
the  American  people  consider  that  the  Irish  people  have  to  wait 
until  they  are  obliterated  and  put  in  prison  before  they  are  justified 
in  putting  up  a  resistance  and  fighting.  Personally  I  am  called  a 
great  pacifist,  and  I  have  suffered  a  great  deal  of  abuse  on  the  sub- 
ject. I  asked  you  the  question  about  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain.  It 
seems  to  me  that  if  I  had  been  him,  I  would  have  shot  those  men. 
I  would  have  tried  to  see  how  many  of  the  other  fellows  I  could 
have  laid  out  first,  before  they  got  me. 

A.  Perhaps  that  is  the  best  answer  I  can  give  to  your  question : 
up  to  the  time  that  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  shot,  there  had 
been  none  of  our  unarmed  leaders  shot  in  their  homes. 

Q.     But  there  was  a  policeman  shot  nine  days  before? 

A.  Yes,  but  he  was  not  unarmed.  \ou  understand,  please,  Miss 
Addams,  that  all  the  policemen  are  fully  armed. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  They  were  not  all  shot  by  Republican  sym- 
pathizers, either. 

The  Witness:    No,  indeed  they  were  not. 

Senator  Norris:  It  happens  occasionally  in  America  that  a  police- 
man is  shot  here. 

The  Witness:  Well,  you  see,  you  have  criminals  in  America. 
But  there  are  no  criminals  in  Ireland  who  would  be  shooting  police- 
men. I  dare  say  we  would  have  our  share  of  them  if  we  had  not 
been  so  heart  and  soul  devoted  to  the  salvation  of  our  country  that 
we  had  no  time.     And  I  may  as  well  tell  you  that  the  petty  criminals 


1  The  facts  in  question  are  contained  in  a  memorandum,  The  Develop- 
ment of  the  English  Military  Campaign  Against  the  Irish  People,  sub- 
mitted to  the  Commission  pursuant  to  this  request,  and  incorporated  in 
the  evidence  as  Exhibit  T.     See  Index. 


35B 

we  had, — the  drunks  and  disorderlies  and  petty  larcenies,  they  had 
all  gone  into  the  army,— all  the  rascals  went  into  the  English  army 
to  fight  the  war. 

May  I  just  take  that  suggestion  you  made,  Senator  Norris,  and 
say  this  about  it.  There  is  no  question  whatever  that  our  people  had 
never  expected  to  be  shot  in  their  beds  like  that  before  the  murder 
of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  and  therefore  they  did  not  carry  their 
arms  to  bed  with  them.  From  the  time  of  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain,  no  Volunteer  went  to  bed  unarmed,  but  was  well  pre- 
pared for  what  might  .happen. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  But  what  we  want  to  know  is  this:  how  long 
and  to  what  extent  the  Irish  people  resisted  the  attempts  of  the 
British  Government  to  provoke  them  into  answering  back  by  force 
of  arms. 

A.     Yes,  but  you  will  let  me  get  exact  facts  and  dates. 

Senator  Walsh:  We  all  appreciate  the  provocation,  and  the  pa- 
tience of  the  Irish  people  in  meeting  that  provocation.  But  we  want 
to  know  how  long  the  Irish  people  held  back. 

NO  FACTIONAL  DIVISION  AMONG  REPUBLICAN 
LEADERS 

Commissioner  Thomas:  It  has  been  repeatedly  charged, — to  give 
you  one  specific  instance,  the  editorial  in  the  New  York  Times  this 
morning, — it  has  been  often  charged  that  within  the  leaders  of  the 
Republican  Army  there  have  been  two  minds  on  the  right  and  ex- 
pediency of  certain  of  these  shootings.  Have  you  any  first-hand  evi- 
dence, or  can  you  put  us  in  the  way  of  any  evidence,  on  this  point? 

A.  I  cannot.  May  I  ask  you  a  question  in  return,  Mr.  Thomas? 
Have  you  ever  had  a  cabinet  that  did  not  have  divisions  on  ques- 
tions of  policy? 

Commissioner  Thomas:  I  would  reply  that  it  is  often  a  pity  that 
there  is  so  little  division  in  opinion  among  members  of  cabinets  in 
America. 

The  Witness:    Then  you  agree  that  a  certain  division  of  opinion 


is  wise 


Commissioner  Thomas:    Yes. 

The  Witness:  I  think  that  a  division  of  opinion  in  the  Republi- 
can cabinet  is  sometimes  quite  possible.  The  men  in  our  cabinet  are 
all  men  of  strong  character.  You  never  find  men  of  strong  charac- 
ter who  are  always  of  the  same  mind. 

Commissioner  Thomas :    I  think  that  is  a  hopeful  symptom. 

The  Witness:    It  is  so  in  our  case. 


359 

Mr.  D.  F.  Mai  one:  But  you  see.  Miss  MacSwiney,  the  New  York 
Times  is  only  of  one  mind,  and  thinks  that  we  will  all  be  stupid 
enough  to  be  of  the  same  mind. 

The  Witness:  That  sounds  like  Lloyd  George.  Every  cabinet  in 
which  there  are  strong  men  of  character  will  discuss  things  openly 
and  frankly,  and  then  come  to  a  decision  which  holds.  Lloyd  George 
has  tried  to  impress  your  people  with  the  fact  that  we  are  all  at 
sixes  and  sevens.  I  begged  you  yesterday  not  to  believe  Lloyd 
George  when  he  says  that  the  members  of  the  Irish  Republic  are 
continuously  fighting  among  themselves. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  What  we  want  to  know  is  how  unani- 
mous the  opinion  of  the  cabinet  is  in  matters  like  the  killing  of  these 
fourteen  policemen. 

A.  I  am  not  in  the  cabinet,  and  the  cabinet  keeps  its  mind  to 
itself.  But  they  had  discussed  that  question  and  had  come  to  a  de- 
cision. 

Q.     But  we  meant,  there  was  no  great  disagreement  in  the  cabinet? 

A.  There  may  have  been  one  or  two  timid  minds, — I  do  not 
know.     But  the  majority  certainly  favored  that  policy. 

WITNESSES  AT  INQUEST  PROVE  COMPLICITY  OF 
POLICE  IN  MURDER  OF  MACCURTAIN 

Chairman  Howe:    Now,  we  will  go  back  to  the  inquest. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Will  you  discuss  what  the  chief  witnesses 
said  at  the  inquest? 

Chairman  Howe:  We  would  like  to  get  through  in  eight  or  ten 
minutes  if  we  could. 

The  Witness:  I  think  the  knowledge  that  the  police  were  re- 
sponsible for  the  murder  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  was  pretty 
generally  known  among  Republicans  on  the  morning  of  his  death, 
but  it  had  not  got  to  be  generally  accepted  as  the  opinion  of  the 
whole  city  until  the  inquest  began.  The  inquest  took  a  very  long 
time.  The  principal  witnesses  were  those  who  testified  to  the  hold- 
ing up  of  civilians  from  entering  the  zone  that  was  formed  by  the 
police  around  the  Lord  Mayor's  house.  A  lamplighter  testified  to 
the  fact  that  he  was  held  up  on  a  road  which  leads  from  King  Street 
to  the  Hill  road, — that  is  the  road  on  which  we  live.  That  particular 
band  was  supposed  to  be  waiting  for  my  brother.  They  did  not 
know  that  he  was  home  that  night,  and  they  were  not  searching  the 
house.  But  it  was  thought  that  as  soon  as  Mrs.  MacCurtain  knew 
that  her  husband  was  murdered,  she  would  send  instantly  for  my 
brother,  and  perhaps  one  or  two  others,  and  they  would  have  the 


360 

opportunity  of  shooting  them  too.  However,  this  lamplighter  was 
stopped  on  York  Hill  and  they  sent  him  back  another  road.  An- 
other man  named  Desmond,  a  lamplighter  also,  had  parted  from  the 
first  lamplighter  named  Thompson.  He  had  a  brother  who  was  also 
a  lamplighter,  and  their  general  plan  was  to  wait  for  each  other  on 
the  corner  of  King  Street  (since  then,  I  can  tell  you,  called  Mac- 
Curtain  Street) ,  so  that  they  could  go  home  together  to  the  south 
side  of  the  city.  He  got  there  first  that  night,  and  stood  on  the  porch 
of  the  Coliseum  Theater,  exactly  opposite  the  police  barracks.  He 
had  been  standing  there  for  a  quarter  of  an  hour  when  he  saw  this 
band  of  armed  men  coming  down  York  Hill, — the  foot  of  York 
Hill,  to  be  precise,  eight  or  ten  yards  from  the  door  of  the  King 
Street  police  barracks.  They  came  down  York  Hill  in  single  file. 
They  walked  very  quietly.  They  must  have  had  rubber  soles  on  their 
shoes.  Each  man  was  dressed  as  the  murderers  were  dressed,  with 
rain  coats  mostly,  some  dark  and  some  drab.  He  could  not  say  what 
they  had  on  their  heads.  But  they  came  down  the  hill  in  single  file. 
They  went  up  the  steps  of  the  police  barracks.  The  carried  re- 
volvers down  by  their  sides.  They  walked  with  the  steps  of  sol- 
diers, for  policemen  in  Ireland  are  always  drilled  like,  soldiers. 
They  tapped  lightly  on  the  door  of  the  police  barracks,  and  the  door 
was  opened  instantly,  and  they  went  inside  immediately.  No  light 
was  shown. 

He  thought  that  something  was  up,  and  he  went  home  without 
waiting  for  his  brother,  as  fast  as  he  could.  He  came  forward  very 
bravely  and  gave  evidence  at  the  inquest.  And  an  attempt  was  made 
on  his  life  during  the  inquest,  but  did  not  succeed.  That  was  about 
twenty  minutes  to  two. 

Another  man,  a  postman,  saw  that  same  body  of  men  file  down 
from  the  police  barracks  about  one  o'clock. 

Q.     Mr.  Mai  one:    What  time  was  Mayor  MacCurtain  killed? 

A.     About  quarter-past  or  half-past  one;  I  cannot  say  exactly. 

Q.  So  that  a  file  of  men  were  seen  to  leave  the  police  barracks 
about  a  quarter  of  an  hour  previously? 

A.  Yes.  But  they  did  not  come  back  all  together  at  the  same 
time.  With  the  number  who  held  up  the  roads  and  so  forth,  there 
must  have  been  a  large  number  of  men  engaged. 

Q.     Was  there  evidence  that  roads  were  held  up? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  many  roads? 

A.  On  one  road  six  men  were  held  up  and  stood  with  their  backs 
to  the  wall.  And  on  another  road  another  man  was  stood  up  by 
these  same  men  with  long  coats  and  soft,  dark  hats.     And  the  third 


361 

road  was  held  up  by  policemen  in  uniform.  They  prevented  men 
from  passing  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain's  house. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  reason  did  they  give  for  holding  up 
these  men? 

A.     They  asked  them  what  business  they  had  on  the  streets  then. 

Q.     Was  this  before  or  after  the  mayor  was  murdered? 

A.  While  he  was  being  murdered.  One  man  who  was  held  up 
by  the  policemen  in  uniform  was  prevented  from  passing  Lord 
Mayor  MacCurtain's  house,  and  was  sent  clown  a  road  which  led  out 
by  a  church  beyond  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain's  house.  He  looked 
back,  and  the  police  shouted,  "Go  on  and  keep  your  eyes  before 
you."  The  first  time  he  looked  back  he  saw  four  policemen  stand- 
ing at  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain's  house.  His  house  was  only  a  few 
doors  beyond,  and  just  as  he  got  there  he  heard  three  shots  ring  out. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:    Was  all  this  evidence  at  the  inquest? 

A.  Yes,  every  bit  of  it  was  sworn  evidence  at  the  inquest.  I 
don't  know  whether  you  think  it  relevant,  but  at  half-past  two  that 
morning  officers  and  soldiers  came  to  raid  the  Lord  Mayor's  house. 
There  were  policemen  outside.  But  this  night  the  policemen  refused 
to  enter  the  house.  The  rule  was  that  the  policemen  searched  the 
house  while  the  military  remained  on  guard.  This  night  the  officers 
searched  the  house  and  saw  the  dead  man  lying  there  and  the  women 
weeping.  A  question  was  asked  in  the  House  of  Commons  the  clay 
after  the  murder.  Mr.  Ian  MacPherson,  who  was  Chief  Secretary  at 
that  time,  was  asked  why  they  so  cruelly  sent  a  military  party  to 
search  a  house  where  a  man  was  lying  dead.  And  the  answer  Mr. 
MacPherson  gave  was  that  the  military  party  had  been  sent  to  Mayor 
MacCurtain's  house  to  find  out  clews  to  the  murder.  General  Strick- 
land, the  military  commander  who  had  sent  that  military  party,  said 
the  next  day  that  when  the  officers  had  come  to  the  house,  they  had 
no  idea  of  the  murder,  and  he  did  not  know  of  it  until  the  officers 
got  back  and  reported. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  So  that  the  claim  of  the  Irish  Republic  sym- 
pathizers is  that  the  police  sent  this  military  party  to  show  that  they 
had  no  knowledge  of  the  murder? 

A.     Well,  my  theory  is 

Q.     Is  that  the  general  opinion? 

A.     My  personal  opinion  is  that  the  military  did  not  know  it. 

Q.     But  the  police? 

A.  The  police  and  the  military  at  that  time  were  separate  bodies. 
They  are  together  now,  but  they  were  not  then. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Your  theory  is  that  both  the  police  and  the 
military  were  after  him  the  same  night? 


362 

A.     Yes,  and  acted  independently. 

Q.  And  that  the  going  of  the  military  in  there  afterwards  was 
not  for  the  purpose  of  deceiving  the  population  as  to  who  committed 
the  murder? 

A.  No,  I  do  not  believe  it  was.  The  police,  who  got  the  order 
from  the  military  at  five  o'clock  that  afternoon  to  have  three  police- 
men ready  to  conduct  the  party  on  the  raid,  hoped  to  use  it  as  a 
cover.  But  I  do  not  really  think  that  the  military  knew  what  was 
going  on  that  night. 

Q.     Who  ordered  his  killing  that  night? 

A.     0,  I  suppose  the  orders  came  from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.     Why  did  they  not  use  the  military  rather  than  the  police? 

A.  0,  the  military  were  really  decent  up  to  that  time.  They 
were  rather  decent,  and  were  not  consciously  out  for  murder  up  to 
that  time.  Now  they  are  quite  different.  The  military  believed  that 
they  were  there  quite  largely  because  Ireland  was  their  country. 
Some  of  them  think  it  still. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Did  that  practically  conclude  the  testi- 
mony offered  at  the  inquest  about  the  connection  of  the  police  with 
the  murder? 

A.  No,  there  was  another  significant  thing.  A  doctor  who  lives 
on  the  Hill  saw  a  body  of  armed  men  stop  at  the  corner,  and  three 
or  four  of  them  go  further  up  the  hill.  A  nurse  who  lives  farther 
up  that  way  saw  them  enter  District  Inspector  Swanzy's  house. 


Q.     Saw  who  going  i 


A.     The  men. 

Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Malone,  this  detailed  evidence  is  interest- 
ing, but  it  is  something  that  we  will  never  pass  upon.  Can  we  not 
get  at  the  other  facts? 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:    Senator  Norris  wanted  to  hear  about  this  data. 

VERDICT    INDICTS    BRITISH    GOVERNMENT    AND 
POLICE  FOR  MURDER 

Q.     What  was  the  verdict,  Miss  MacSwiney? 

Senator  Walsh:  Of  course  we  want  details  as  to  just  why  he  was 
murdered. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone :  I  want  to  ask  you  first  if  the  coroner  who 
presided  at  the  inquest  was  an  officer  of  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Is  he  appointed  by  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Was  there  a  jury? 


363 

A.     \es.  the  jury  was  impaneled  by  the  police. 

Q.     And  this  is  the  verdict  of  the  jury? 

A.  Yes,  of  course.  The  police  gave  evidence  at  the  inquest,  and 
tried  to  prove  by  their  books  that  they  were  all  in  their  beds.  But 
the  evidence  proved  that  the  books  were  unreliable.  The  books  at 
the  time  were  not  properly  kept.  They  were  obliged  to  admit  that 
under  oath. 

Q.     What  was  the  verdict? 

A.     The  verdict  is  this: 

"We  find  that  the  late  Alderman  Thomas  MacCurtain,  Lord  Mavor 
of  Cork,  died  from  shock  and  hemorrhage  caused  by  bullet  wounds; 
that  he  was- wilfully  murdered  under  circumstances  of  the  most  cal- 
lous brutality:  that  the  murder  was  organized  and  carried  out  by 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabularv,  officially  directed  by  the  British  Gov- 
ernment; and  we  return  a  verdict  of  wilful  murder  against  David 
Lloyd  George,  prime  minister  of  England;  Lord  French,  lord  lieu- 
tenant of  Ireland;  Ian  MacPherson,  late  chief  secretary  for  Ireland; 
Acting  Inspector  General  Smith  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary; 
Divisional  Inspector  Clayton  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary;  Dis- 
trict Inspector  Swanzy,  and  some  unknown  members  of  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary.  We  strongly  condemn  the  system  now  in  vogue 
of  carrying  out  raids  at  unseasonable  hours.  We  tender  to  Mrs. 
MacCurtain  and  her  family  our  sympathy  in  their  bereavement. 
This  sympathy  we  extend  to  the  city  of  Cork  in  the  loss  they  have 
sustained  of  one  so  capable  of  carrying  out  their  city  administra- 
tion." 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    How  many  were  on  the  jury? 

A.     Fourteen. 

Q.     The  coroner  is  a  crown  officer? 

A.     Yes. 

POLICE  IMPANEL  JURY  WHICH  CONDEMNS  THEM 

Q.     Who  selected  the  men  who  sat  on  the  jury? 

A.  The  police  always  impanel  the  jury.  There  are  certain 
names,  the  names  of  the  list  of  burgesses,  you  see,  and  they  take 
these  names  at  haphazard.  Coroners'  juries  are  not  like  criminal 
juries.     People  do  not  object  to  going  and  serving. 

Q.     Who  puts  these  names  on  the  jury? 

A.  The  coroner  directs  the  police  officer  to  summon  the  jury. 
The  police,  I  believe,  summon  sixteen  or  eighteen.  The  coroner's 
jury  is  not  like  an  ordinary  jury.  You  may  have  twelve  men,  or 
you  may  have  more. 


364 

Q.  The  police  were  charged  with  the  crime.  Then  why  did  they 
select  the  jury? 

A.  There  was  no  one  else  to  select  the  jury  at  this  time.  When 
the  first  men  were  summoned,  only  seven  of  them  showed  up.  Then 
the  coroner  called  upon  several  citizens  who  offered  themselves  as 
willing  to  act.  One  or  two  were  members  of  the  corporation,  and 
one  of  them  suggested  that  as  a  member  of  the  corporation  he  might 
not  be  considered  eligible.  The  coroner  at  first  said,  "I  don't  see 
what  difference  that  would  make."  And  finally  he  thought  better 
not  to  ask  them  to  serve.  The  solicitor  for  the  King  asked  what 
each  man's  occupation  was,  because,  he  said,  that  on  account  of  the 
evidence  he  was  about  to  submit,  no  policeman  could  sit  on  that 
jury.     So  on  that  ground  several  of  them  withdrew. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  know  if  the  British  Crown 
was  represented  at  that  inquest? 

A.     0  yes. 

Q.  And  that  all  the  formalities  had  been  complied  with  that  had 
been  complied  with  in  the  days  of  peace? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  that  they,  by  the  presence  of  their  authorities,  recognized 
it  as  an  official  procedure? 

A.     0,  yes,  it  was  an  absolutely  official  court  in  that  case. 

CROWN  COUNSEL  DROPS  DEFENSE  OF  POLICE 

I  would  like  to  say,  in  addition,  that  at  first  they  had  only  the 
Crown  solicitor  to  represent  them;  they  later  brought  in  the  most 
eminent  K.  C. — King's  Counsel — in  the  country  to  represent  them. 
I  would  like  to  say  of  that  man,  Mr.  Wiley,  a  very  eminent  man :  it 
was  easy  for  us  to  see  that  all  through  the  inquest  he  was  acting 
honorably,  and  that  he  got  a  complete  shock  when  the  evidence 
showed  so  conclusively  that  the  police  had  committed  this  murder. 
Before  the  evidence  was  half-way  through,  he  withdrew  on  the  plea 
of  business  elsewhere.  He  had  to  go  somewhere  else.  Before  he 
went  away  he  said  that,  perhaps,  from  his  position  he  might  not  be 
believed,  but  that  he  spoke  from  his  heart  in  sympathizing  with  Mrs. 
MacCurtain  and  the  family.  And  it  was  quite  easy  to  see  that  he 
spoke  from  his  heart.  A  short  time  after  that  Mr.  Wiley,  who  was 
a  very  young  man,  and  who  could  have  risen  very  high  in  his  pro- 
fession, resigned  from  his  position  and  cut  off  all  connection  with 
his  party,  the  Unionist  Party,  which  could  have  helped  him  to  reach 
as  high  a  position  as  Sir  Edward  Carson, 


365 
POLICE  BULLETS  AND  BUTTON  FOUND 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Was  there  any  evidence  that  the  bullets 
found  in  the  body  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  were  police  bullets? 

A.  Yes,  there  was.  But  I  would  not  like  to  make  a  point  of  it, 
because  their  counsel  said  that  many  police  revolvers  and  bullets 
had  been  captured  by  Sinn  Feiners.  And  that  was  true.  So  al- 
though there  were  police  bullets  found  there,  that  would  not  be  abso- 
lute identification  because  the  Sinn  Feiners  have  about  as  many 
police  revolvers  as  the  police  themselves.  But  there  was  a  police 
button  found. 

Q.     Where? 

A.     At  the  door,  where  Mrs.  MacSwiney  was. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Had  there  been  a  struggle  there? 

A.  I  don't  think  so.  He  did  not  stress  that  as  a  matter  of  very- 
great  importance.  But  the  button  was  found.  I  am  perfectly  honest 
in  telling  you  that  I  would  not  myself  consider  the  fact  that  the 
bullets  found  were  police  bullets  was  conclusive  evidence,  because 
we  have  captured  a  good  many  of  their  rifles  and  revolvers,  and  we 
are  capturing  more. 

LORD  FRENCH  IGNORES  JURY  SUMMONS  TO 
PRODUCE  EVIDENCE 

Q.  But  there  was  no  reason  why  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  would 
be  killed  by  Republicans? 

A.  I  would  like  to  say  that  Lord  French  gave  an  interview  to  a 
newspaper  man,  I  think  it  was  the  Dublin  Express;  and  in  that  in- 
terview he  said  that  there  was  conclusive  evidence  that  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain  had  been  murdered  by  extremists  in  the  Sinn  Fein  ranks, 
who  were  not  satisfied  with  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  because  he  was 
a  moderate  man.  The  jury  heard  of  that  and  sent  a  summons  to 
Sir  John  Taylor,  under  secretary  of  Dublin  Castle,  requesting  Lord 
French  to  bring  in  this  evidence.  They  sent  that  summons  to  Dublin 
Castle,  and  it  was  never  answered — for,  of  course,  Lord  French  did 
not  have  such  evidence,  and  he  knew  he  could  not  manufacture 
enough  evidence  to  bolster  up  his  statement  in  that  way. 

Chairman  Howe:    Are  there  any  other  questions? 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:    No  other  questions. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


366 
TESTIMONY  OF  P.  J.  GUILFOIL 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:    What  is  your  full  name,  Mr.  Guilfoil? 

A.     P.  J.  Guilfoil. 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside? 

A.     In  Pittsburgh. 

Q.     What  is  the  date  of  your  last  visit  to  Ireland? 

A.     I  landed  on  the  twenty-fifth  of  May  last. 

Q.     Whom   did  you   visit   there? 

A.     Just  relatives. 

Q.     Where  did  you  live  there? 

A.  With  my  sister-in-law  in  Feakle  in  County  Clare.  She  is 
a  dressmaker  and  has  a  little  cottage  there.  I  was  there  for  five 
months. 

Q.     Was  your  family  there? 

A.     Yes,  sir;   my  wife  and  two  children. 

Q.     How  old  are  the  children? 

A.     One  nine,   the   other   seven. 

Q.     And  you   were   living   in  the  house   of  your  sister? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  long? 

A.  From  the  twenty-fifth  of  May  to  the  fifteenth  of  October. 
I  wasn't  there  all  of  the  time,  for  I  was  in  Cork  for  a  few  days 
before  I  sailed. 

HOME   BURNED    BECAUSE    POLICEMEN    SHOT    BY 
PARTIES  UNKNOWN 

Q.  I  understand  that  the  home  in  which  you  were  living  was 
burned. 

A.     Right. 

Q.     Were  you  there  at  the  time? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Just  relate  briefly  for  the  commission  the  circumstances  of 
that  burning.     What  date  was  that? 

A.  On  the  morning  of  October  seventh.  The  postoffice  is  about 
a  quarter  of  a  mile  out  from  this  little  town,  and  there  were  six 
of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  went  out  to  this  post  office,  and 
two  of  them  got  shot  just  as  they  reached  the  postoffice  at  ten- 
thirty  in  the  morning. 

Q.     The  Commission;    Did  you  see  this  or  just  hear  about  it? 


367 

A.  I  saw  the  whole  thing.  I  went  out  there  about  eleven  or 
eleven-thirty  to  send  a  wire  to  Thomas  Cook  &  Sons  of  Dublin 
about  my  return  to  the  States.  I  knew  about  the  happening  be- 
fore I  left  the  town  to  go  out  there,  and  being  an  American  citi- 
zen and  having  my  passport  there,  and  being  of  good  courage, 
I  went  out  there  after  this  happened. 

Q.     The  Commission:    After  what  happened? 

A.     After  the   two   policemen   were   shot. 

Q.     But  you  saw  them  shot? 

A.  No,  I  saw  them  lying  there.  I  was  in  the  town  then.  When 
I  got  there  there  was  a  young  priest,  Father  O'Reilly,  the  only 
priest  in  the  parish,  with  the  dead  men.  I  viewed  the  remains 
by  the  roadside.  Word  had  been  sent  to  the  military  at  Ennis,  a 
town  about  eighteen  miles  from  there.  I  questioned  the  priest 
about  the  matter,  and  he  said  that  all  he  knew  about  it  was  that 
he  was  called  there  about  a  half  hour  before  by  a  young  girl 
who  told  him  there  were  two  men  at  the  postoffice  in  a  dying  con- 
dition. The  town  physician  had  been  there  also,  Dr.  O'Halloran, 
but  he  had  left  before  I  arrived.  I  asked  the  priest  if  he  did  not 
run  great  danger  of  reprisals  for  remaining  there.  But  he  said, 
what  could  he  do?  He  could  not  leave  two  dead  bodies  by  the 
road,  because  there  were  pigs  and  dogs  around  there,  and  what 
could  he  do?  I  told  him  that  if  he  felt  that  way  about  it,  I 
would  remain  with  him,  which  I  did. 

About  two  o'clock  the  military  arrived.  There  were  about  fifty 
of  them  arrived  on  horseback.  They  got  the  priest  to  provide  a 
horse  and  cart  to  carry  the  remains  into  the  town. 

Q.     They   asked  the   priest  to   do  that? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  They  carried  the  bodies  into  the  town,  and 
some  of  the  military  remained  there  with  the  horses,  and  the 
others  went  on  with  the  bodies. 

SOLDIERS  LOOT  SHOP  FOR  LIQUOR 

I  remained  there  where  the  police  were  shot  for  about  half  an 
hour,  and  then  I  walked  into  the  town.  As  I  got  into  the  town 
there  was  a  man  named  Considine, — he  has  got  a  public  house, 
which  is  what  they  call  a  saloon  here, — and  he  is  a  carpenter  by 
trade.  He  has  three  young  sons  who,  it  seems,  are  connected  with 
the  Sinn  Fein  movement.  The  military  had  taken  possession  of  his 
house  when  I  arrived.  They  were  standing  out  in  front  with  their 
bayonets  fixed,  standing  on  guard.  They  were  plainly  partaking 
of  the  liquids  in  the  house.     I  saw  that  as  I  passed  by. 


368 

I  walked  on  up  the  street.  About  fifty  or  sixty  yards  up  is 
where  my  sister-in-law  lives,  on  the  other  side  of  the  street.  I 
had  no  more  than  entered  when  an  officer  comes  in  and  asks, 
"Where  is  the  civilian  who  just  entered?"  I  was  the  only  man 
living  in  the  cottage.  He  wanted  to  know  where  I  belonged.  I 
explained  who  I  was,  showed  him  my  passport,  and  told  him  I  was 
an  American  tourist.  He  examined  the  passport  very  closely,  and 
asked  me  if  I  had  a  pencil,  and  I  told  him  no,  I  had  a  fountain 
pen.  And  he  said  he  was  going  to  put  me  on  the  black  list,  and 
he  took  the  number  of  my  passport  and  also  my  name.  I  said  that 
was  very  nice.  He  left  there,  but  soon  returned  and  had  six  sol- 
diers come  back  with  him.  They  stood  on  guard  outside  the  house 
and  remained  there  until  five  that  evening.  Some  of  the  men 
were  visibly  under  the  influence  of  liquor  coming  on  towards 
evening. 

PRIEST  BRUTALLY  BEATEN  BY  OFFICER'S  ORDER 

At  six-thirty  that  evening  there  was  a  military  officer  and  a  dis- 
trict inspector  come  down  from  Tulla,  about  eight  miles  away. 
They  came  down  with  six  soldiers  directly  across  from  where  I 
was  living  to  where  this  priest  was  living,  this  Father  O'Reilly. 
There  is  a  stone  coping  about  three  feet  high  around  the  house, 
where  there  is  a  garden  and  flowers  inside.  The  six  soldiers  re- 
mained outside  and  the  officer  went  in  and  knocked  at  the  door. 
And  I  stood  directly  across  the  street  taking  it  all  in.  The  of- 
ficer said  to  the  priest  when  he  answered  the  door,  "Are  you 
O'Reilly?"  The  priest  answered,  "Yes."  Then  he  grabbed  him 
by  the  collar  and  said,  "Come  here,  you.  You  saw  this  horrible 
murder  committed  this  morning.  I  will  give  you  just  five  min- 
utes to  confess.  Who  committed  this  horrible  murder?"  The  priest 
said,  "I  am  innocent.  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  it."  The  officer 
said,  "Attention,  men."  The  six  soldiers  were  standing  outside 
the  wall  on  the  road.  The  six  soldiers  then  went  in  and  grabbed 
hold  of  the  priest.  Three  of  them  had  him  by  the  head  and  three 
by  the  feet.  They  carried  him  out,  the  three  in  the  lead  carrying 
him  out  of  the  gate,  and  the  three  on  the  inside  laid  him  down  on 
the  wall,  face  down.  The  two  officers  remained  inside  in  the  gar- 
den, and  one  of  them  said  he  would  give  him  just  one  minute 
to  confess  to  the  horrible  murder.  The  priest  said  he  was  inno- 
cent. One  of  the  officers  said,  "Let  him  have  it."  And  the  sight 
of  it  was  too  horrible  for  me  to   witness,   and  I   pulled  my  cap 


369 

down  so  I  would  not  see  the  flash.  Instead  of  that,  one  of  the 
soldiers  stepped  forward  and  with  the  butt  of  his  rifle  hit  him 
three  horrible  blows  across  the  hips.  The  officer  said,  "Now  will 
you  confess  to  this  horrible  crime?"  He  said,  "I  am  innocent." 
The  one  officer  spoke  and  said,  "We  will  show  you  we  are  more 
humane  than  you  are.  And  now  get  up  and  get  into  the  house." 
The  priest  got  up  and  started  to  go  into  the  house,  and  as  he  did 
so,  the  officer  gave  him  a  kick  and  called  him  some  terrible  names 
as  he  went  into  the  house.  The  six  soldiers  went  on  up  to  the 
barracks. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  If  the  Commission  wants  to  know  what  sort 
of  terrible  language  these  soldiers  used,  I  suppose  we  can  ask 
for  it. 

The  Commission:  No,  it  is  not  necessary. 

The  Witness:  The  officer  and  soldiers  went  up  to  the  barracks 
and  got  into  a  big  motor  lorry  and  went  away.  I  went  across  the 
street  and  knocked  at  the  door  of  the  priest's  house,  and  he  let 
me  into  the  house,  and  I  said,  "My  God,  are  you  able  to  stand 
up?"  And  he  said,  "I  got  some  awful  wallops  and  am  suffering 
some  great  pain,  but  what  am  I  going  to  do?"  And  I  said,  "I 
don't  suppose  your  feet  can  carry  you  very  far,  but  as  far  as  they 
can  carry  you,  I  would  advise  you  to  get  out  of  the  town.  There 
will  be  reprisals  tonight."  He  said,  "Well,  if  there  are  reprisals 
there  will  be  people  dying,  and  they  will  need  a  priest."  I  said, 
"You  would  not  abandon  that  place  out  there  this  morning,  and 
I  will  not  urge  you  to  leave.  Use  your  own  judgment,  Father 
O'Reilly." 

SOLDIERS  AT  BARRACKS  "WILD  DRUNK" 

As  I  went  across  the  street — it  was  getting  dark — and  as  I 
crossed  the  street  Dr.  O'Halloran,  the  town  physician,  came  down, 
and  I  said,  "Where  have  you  been?"  And  he  said,  "Up  to  the 
barracks.  The  conditions  up  there  are  terrible.  They  are  all 
wild  drunk."  He  said  Finnery,  a  sergeant  up  there,  got  a  ter- 
rible cut  in  his  wrist.  He  stuck  his  first  through  a  plate  glass 
window  down  at  Considine's.  He  said,  "P.  J.,  I  would  advise  you 
to  get  in  and  stay  in  off  the  streets  tonight,  for  there  is  going 
to  be  trouble,"  I  told  my  wife  and  sister-in-law  about  the  con- 
versation. 


370 
A  NIGHT  OF  SHOOTING,  SHOUTING  AND  BURNING 

I  had  not  been  in  three  minutes  when  the  shooting  began. 
The  police  and  the  military  came  on  down  the  street  banging  and 
shooting  and  throwing  hand  grenades  in  all  directions.  We  had 
just  been  drinking  some  tea  that  was  standing  there,  and  I  said, 
"We  had  better  get  out  of  the  way.  Here  they  come."  I  got  the 
two  little  children,  and  we  went  upstairs.  And  I  said  to  the 
children,  "You  had  better  lie  next  to  the  walls."  I  do  not  need 
to  tell  you  how  nervous  those  children  were.  They  were  shaking 
so  that  I  got  to  shaking  myself.  After  they  got  on  down  the 
street  I  went  downstairs  and  got  some  souvenirs.  (Takes  object 
from  pocket.) 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  is  it,  for  the  sake  of  the  record? 

A.     A  steel  bullet.      (Exhibits  bullet  to  Commission.) 

After  they  passed  down  the  street — this  Considine  place,  as  1 
have  stated,  is  about  fifty  or  sixty  yards  from  us  on  the  left-hand 
side  of  the  street,  a  thatched  house, — they  took  a  big  long  candle 
and  they  lit  it.  I  got  up  and  looked  out  of  the  window  as  they 
passed.  They  just  took  this  candle  and  held  it  under  the  roof 
of  the  house  until  it  was  all  afire.  They  went  on  down  the  street, 
firing  and  shooting  and  shouting,  until  about  twelve-thirty  or  one. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    From  when? 

A.     From   seven   o'clock   until   about   one. 

ESCAPE  UNCLAD  FROM  BURNING  HOUSE 

At  one  o'clock — in  the  other  half  of  the  cottage  there  is  a 
family  named  O'Briens.  They  vacated  at  some  part  of  the  even- 
ing, the  time  I  do  not  know.  The  military  went  in  and  searched 
the  house.  I  understand  that  one  of  the  young  O'Briens  was  in 
sympathy  with  the  Sinn  Fein  movement.  The  cottages  are  only 
divided  by  partitions.  I  was  in  the  part  of  the  upstairs  near 
the  O'Briens'  cottage.  My  Missus  told  me  that  the  soldiers  were 
on  the  roof.  I  said,  "They  are  on  the  roof  taking  observations, 
the  same  as  ourselves."  She  said  she  smelled  rags  burning.  I 
said  it  was  the  Considine  house,  because  the  wind  was  westerly  and 
we  were  getting  the  smell  of  their  burning.  The  Missus  said  it 
was  not.  At  one  or  one-twenty  the  Missus  got  up  and  pulled  the 
blinds  back,  and  the  flames  were  coming  up  to  the  window.  She 
said,  "My  God,  I  told  you  the  house  was  on  fire!"  I  got  out  of 
bed  and  told  her  to  get  the  children  out,  and  ran  down  with  an 
armful  of  clothes  for  the  children,  and  threw  them  over  the  wall 


371 

that  divides  the  field  from  the  house,  and  told  her  to  bring  the 
children  down  there.  I  looked  up  at  the  cottage,  and  there  was  a 
hole  just  about  as  big  as  that  skylight  (indicating  skylight  in  room) 
burning  in  the  roof.  I  ran  back  and  said,  "We  have  no  time  to 
fool  around  here.  Take  what  you  have  and  get  out  of  here.  I 
prefer  to  be  shot  than  to  be  burned  to  death."  They  were  still 
shooting  down  the  street.  So  they  got  out  of  there  and  went 
back  in  the  field.     The  Missus  got  dressed  and  dressed  the  children. 

After  that  a  bit  they  ceased  shooting  for  a  time.  Some  kind 
neighbors  came  to  our  assistance,  and  we  said  that  if  we  had  a 
ladder  and  some  buckets  we  could  save  part  of  the  cottage.  Mr. 
Maloney,  who  lives  across  the  street,  got  a  ladder,  and  some  of  the 
men  got  some  buckets,  and  we  succeeded  in  saving  the  biggest  part 
of  the  cottage.  At  six  o'clock  that  morning  I  got  hold  of  a  car 
to  convey  my  baggage  and  the  children  out  of  town,  and  about 
ten  o'clock  I  left  myself.  Then  I  went  to  a  place  where  my  wife's 
people  live. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    In  another  town? 

A.     It  is  in  the  country. 

Q.     How  many  houses  were   burned? 

A.     Two  that  night,   Senator. 

Q.     Anybody   shot? 

A.  Nobody  shot,  Senator.  The  only  thing  was  the  beating  that 
that  priest  got  that  evening. 

PRIEST'S   PROPERTY   WANTONLY   BURNED 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:     Did  they  injure  his  property? 

A.  'Well,  that  happened  next  day.  They  came  down  the  next 
day  and  asked  Mrs.  MacDonald,  the  woman  who  owns  the  property, 
if  any  of  the  furniture  belonged  to  her.  She  said  no.  They  took 
the  entire  furniture,  with  the  exception  of  a  wardrobe  that  was 
too  heavy  to  pack  downstairs,  and  packed  it  out  to  the  middle 
of  the  street  and  set  fire  to  it.  And  they  said  they  were  only  sorry 
that  they  did  not  have  that  bloody  bastard,  as  they  called  the  priest, 
to  put  him  on  top  of  it. 

The  following  night — that  would  be  October  eighth — they  went 
out  to  the  postoffice,  and  the  postoffice  and  the  house  next  to  it, 
they  set  fire  to  both  of  those,  and  burned  a  lot  of  hay  that  was 
in  the  field  back  of  it.  And  about  two  hundred  yards  in  the  field 
there  was  a  man  named  MacCullough  (?),  and  they  burned  his 
house   and   all   the   outhouses    and   two   big   stacks   of    oats.      They 


372 

burned  everything  he  had  but  a  little  house  covered  with  galvan- 
ized iron,  which  I  dare  say  they  could  not  burn. 

Q.     How  large  a  town  is  this,  Mr.  Guilfoil? 

A.     Two  or  three  hundred. 

Q.     When  did  you  leave  Ireland? 

A.  I  left  Ireland  the  twenty-first  of  October  on  the  steamer 
Celtic. 

Q.     What  is  your  home  town,  Mr.  Guilfoil? 

A.     Pittsburgh. 

POLICEMEN  SHOT  AS  AN  ACT  OF  WAR 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  about  the 
killing  of  the  policemen  at  the  postoffice.     There  were  two  killed? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  information  about  why  they  had  been 
killed? 

A.  The  only  information  I  received  as  to  that  was  that  it  must 
have  been  done  by  the  Irish  Republican  Army.  There  were  six 
of  those  policemen.  The  two  that  they  killed  they  took  all  their 
arms  and  ammunition  from  them.  The  papers  there  brought  it 
out  about  the  unscrupulous  way  in  which  they  robbed  the  bodies. 
I  was  there  when  they  put  the  bodies  into  carts,  and  the  officer 
took  the  men's  watches  and  pocketbooks,  and  gave  Stanley's  to  his 
wife,  who  was  there.  The  other  one  was  a  sergeant,  Sergeant 
Dougherty.     They  did  not  rob  them  of  these. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  statement  did  they  give  as  to  why 
they  were  killed? 

A.     The  statement  was  made  that  they  were  shot  and  robbed. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  But  he  asked  you  what  made  these  men 
marked  men, — why  were  they  killed? 

A.  There  was  one  of  them,  Stanley,  he  came  up  to  Mrs.  Mc- 
Donough's  public  house  and  pulled  out  a  forty-four  revolver,  and 
he  said,  "If  I  only  had  a  few  more  like  these  I  would  damn  soon 
finish  the  Republican  Army."  His  wife  said  after  he  was  dead 
that  life  was  miserable  anyway  with  him,  for  all  he  talked  about 
was  murder  for  the  last  four  or  five  months. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  like  to  have  you  develop  any 
facts  or  evidence  that  you  have  as  to  what  these  men  had  done 
to  interfere  with  the  happiness  and  peace  and  good  order  of  these 
people  before  they  were  shot. 

The  Witness:    These  policemen? 


373 

Senator  Walsh:    Yes. 

A.     Nothing  that  I  know  of  further. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  as  to  why  the  members  of  the  Re- 
publican Army  were  going  to  shoot  them,  or  did  shoot  them? 

A.  The  only  thing  I  heard  around  there  was  that  the  Sinn 
Fein,  the  Republican  Army,  was  trying  to  take  those  barracks  just 
a  week  before  I  arrived  in  that  town.  That  was  one  of  their  moves, 
as  Miss  MacSwiney  said.  They  had  tried  to  take  those  barracks 
a  wreek  before  I  came,  but  did  not  succeed  in  doing  so.  There 
is  a  little  town  about  six  miles  from  there,  Scariff;  they  started 
on  that  barracks  on  Saturday,  the  eighteenth  of  September,  I  think. 
There  was  about  three  hundred  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
came  there  that  night,  but  they  did  not  succeed  in  taking  that 
barracks.  The  second  or  third  day  after  that  the  military  or 
police  evacuated  and  went  to  a  town  named  Killaloe,  about  eight 
miles  away.  And  the  day  after  that  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
came  there  and  tore  the  barracks  down. 

ENGLISH   SHOOT   HANDCUFFED    PRISONERS 
"TRYING   TO    ESCAPE" 

There  were  some  young  fellows,  Rogers,  a  cousin  of  mine,  Mac- 
Mahan,  Eagan,  and  Gildan  (?),  these  four  young  fellows  were 
on  the  run.  They  were  down  at  a  town  named  Whitegate  about 
eight  miles  from  Scariff.  The  town  of  Killaloe  is  about  eight 
or  nine  miles  below  Scariff.  The  River  Shannon  comes  in  be- 
tween and  divides  those  towns.  They  make  an  angle  like  this 
I  indicating  an  acute  angle).  The  miltary  went  across  the  river  in 
a  boat  and  arrested  all  four  of  these  young  fellows,  and  two  others 
who  owned  the  house  in  which  they  were  living.  They  took  them 
across  the  river,  and  not  through  their  own  town,  and  the  four 
of  them  were  shot  on  the  Killaloe  Bridge.  There  is  quite  a  depth 
of  water  there,  and  right  in  the  middle  of  the  bridge  is  where  they 
were  shot. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  date? 

A.     I  have  the  papers  here. 

Q.     Did  this  happen  before  you  left  Ireland? 

A.     No,  these  men  were  shot  since. 

Q.  Were  these  men  shot  before  or  after  the  shooting  of  the 
police? 

A.  After.  This  happened  about  the  fifteenth  or  sixteenth.  The 
paper  is  dated  the  nineteenth.  The  military  tried  to  make  it  out 
that  these  men  were  shot  trying  to  escape,  but  the  paper  brings  it 


374 

out  that  these  men  could  not  have  tried  to  escape  in  the  middle 
of  the  bridge,  because  the  channel  is  too  deep  there,  and  they 
were  handcuffed. 

Q.     Were  the  bodies  found? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Handcuffed  when  they  were  found? 

A.  No,  the  military  took  their  bodies  to  their  barracks  and 
would  not  let  the  people  of  the  village  see  them  after  they  had 
them  in  there. 

Q.     How  long  had  they  been  pursuing  them? 

A.  These  young  fellows  who  were  arrested  had  been  on  the 
run  since  September,  1918. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Mr.  Guilfoil,  with  a  Republican  Army  of 
three  hundred  around  there,  there  must  be  a  state  of  war. 

A.     0,  yes. 

Q.     Were  these  young  men  armed? 

A.     Yes. 

REPRISALS  AGAINST  UNARMED  CIVILIANS 

Q.     Were  the  civilians  in  the  village  armed? 

A.     0,  no. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    But  no  one  was  killed  in  the  town? 

A.  Five  were  later  injured,  I  understand  since  leaving  there. 
I  got  some  literature  from  there  since  I  left,  and  practically  the 
entire  section  of  the  country  has  been  wiped  out,  their  homes  and 
corn  stacks  and  hay  burned.  Any  persons  who  proclaim  any 
sympathy  with  the  Irish  Republic  have  their  homes  and  property 
burned. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Where  did  this  bullet  (indicating  ex- 
hibit)  enter  your  home? 

A.     Right  by  the  window  down  the  hallway. 

Q.  So  that  if  you  had  been  down  there,  you  might  have  been 
hit? 

A.  Yes,  if  I  happened  to  be  sitting  at  the  table,  it  would  have 
been  the  perfect  range,  the  perfect  range  for  hitting  me. 

FUNERAL   DOMINATED   BY  ARMED   MILITARY 

There's  one  thing  more.  I  was  in  Cork  on  the  seventeenth,  the 
eighteenth,  and  nineteenth  of  October.  I  went  from  there  to 
Queenstown  to  sail  on  the  Celtic  on  the  twenty-first.  There  was 
one   of  the   hunger   strikers   there   named   Fitzgerald,    and   he   died 


375 

there  in  prison.  And  at  his  funeral  my  little  boys  were  walking 
up  the  streets,  and  they  wanted  two  little  American  flags  to  pin 
on  their  coats.  And  I  went  into  a  store  there  and  got  them  some. 
At  the  funeral  there  was  the  coffin  coming  up  the  street,  and  the 
military  on  both  sides  of  the  coffin,  which  was  covered  with 
wreaths  of  green,  white,  and  gold,  the  Sinn  Fein  colors,  and  the 
Sinn  Fein  flag.  And  as  they  passed  the  Windsor  Hotel,  where  I 
was  staying  at — (It  is  on  what  street,  Miss  MacSwiney?  ) 

Miss  MacSwiney:    On   MacCurtain   Street. 

The  Witness:  As  they  passed  the  hotel  the  military  took  their 
bayonets  and  threw  these  wreaths  off  the  hearse.  Anything  more 
horrible  I  never  want  to  see  than  an  armed  military  body  fol- 
lowing a  coffin.  The  friends  wanted  to  have  a  hundred  march 
after  the  coffin,  but  the  authorities  said  that  any  formation  would 
not  be  tolerated  by  the  British  officials.  They  followed  that  cof- 
fin with  rifles  and  machine  guns  all  the  way  out  to  the  cemetery. 
*  Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  they  interfere  with  the  boys  with  the 
American  flags? 

A.  No.  There  was  a  piece  in  one  of  the  Cork  papers  about 
American  flags  being  displayed  at  the  funeral.  The  distance  that 
the  boys  walked  along  there  was  about  fifty  or  sixty  yards.  As 
soon  as  I  saw  the  military  coming  along,  I  took  the  boys  and 
got  away  from  there,  for   I   thought   there  might   be  trouble. 

Q.     But   they   did  not  interfere   with   the   funeral? 

A.  No.  They  followed  the  coffin  out  to  the  cemetery  and 
stood  around  there  until  it  was  over. 

PEOPLE  SUPPORT  REPUBLICAN  ARMY  DESPITE 
REPRISALS 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  go  back  to  this 
village.  There  were  barracks  there  attacked  by  three  hundred  of 
the  Republican  Army? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  on  September  eighteenth. 

Q.  A  week  later — a  few  weeks  later,  these  reprisals  were  made 
and  these  young  men  were  taken  out  and  shot? 

A.     Yes,  ma'am. 

Q.  What  was  the  attitude  of  the  countryside?  Were  they  hos- 
tile to  the  Irish  Army  coming  in  and  stirring  up  the  British  to 
make  trouble,  or  did  they  sympathize  with  them? 

A.  The  attitude  of  the  people  was  that  since  the  British  had 
placed  the  military  there — they  are  bringing  them  in  by  the  thou- 
sands— the   people   had   a   right   to   rise   against  him. 


376 

Q.  But  the  people  of  the  countryside,  did  they  feel  that  the 
Irish  Army  was  right  in  taking  the  barracks  when  it  brought  re- 
prisals on  civilians? 

A.     0  yes,  indeed.     The  whole  countryside  was  with  them. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  is,  that  they  are  with  the  Republican 
form  of  government,  and  they  are  standing  behind  what  they  do 
in  the  way  of  warfare? 

A.     Yes,  0,  yes. 

The  Commission:    That  is  all.     Thank  you  very  much. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  DANIEL  FRANCIS 
CROWLEY 

Chairman  Howe:    Proceed,  Mr.  Malone,  please. 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:   What  is  your  full  name  please? 

A.     Daniel  Francis  Crowley. 


ni'll 


Q.     Where  were  you  b< 

A.     I  was  born  at  Bohocoglin,  County  Kerry,  Ireland. 

Q.     How  old  are  you?     A.   Twenty -three  years. 

Q.     When  did  you  enlist  in  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  I  enlisted  in  March,  1916.  I  presented  my  name  for  ap- 
pointment in  March,  1916,  and  I  was  called  out  on  the  third  of 
July,  1917.' 

THE  TRAINING  OF  A  POLICE  RECRUIT 

Q.  And  after  you  were  called  out,  where  did  you  go  for  train- 
ing? 

A.     To  the  Phoenix  Park  Barracks  in   Dublin. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  remain  there? 

A.     I  remained  there  until  the  eighteenth  of  January,  1918. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Why  not  bring  out  how  long  he  has 
been  connected  with  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary?  When  did 
he  resign? 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  0  yes.  How  long  were  you  connected  with 
the  R.  I.C.? 

A.     I  tendered  my  resignation  on  the  first  day  of  June  last. 

Senator  Walsh:    Very  good.     Now  go  back  to  the  training. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  While  at  this  Phoenix  Park  Training 
Camp,  what  training  did  you  receive? 


377 

A.  Training  in  infantry  drill,  gymnastics,  and  ordinary  police 
duties. 

Q.     Did  you  have  bayonet  practice?     A.   Just  a  little. 

Q.     How  much? 

A.     Something   about   five   or   six   days'   practice    altogether. 

Q.     Were  you  trained  in  the  use  of  hand  grenades  and  bombs? 

A.  That  was  in  March,  1919.  It  was  in  March  of  this  year 
that  I  was  trained  in  the  use  of  bombs. 

Q.     So   that   training  vou  got   at   a  later  period? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  The  trading  you  got  at  the  Phoenix  Park  Camp  was  train- 
ing for  a  policeman?     Is  that  correct? 

A.     Yes,   training   for   a   policeman. 

Q.  What  were  the  instructions  given  you,  very  generally  and 
very  briefly,  with  regard  to  the  use  of  firearms? 

A.  The  instructions  I  was  given  when  I  was  trained  in  Dublin 
was  that  a  policeman  should  never  resort  to  the  use  of  firearms 
at  all,  except  in  case  he  was  attacked. 

Q.     Except  in  self-defense?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     What  firearms  were  you  equipped  with? 

A.     A  carbine,  like  what  is  called  a  revolver. 

Q.     A  carbine  or  revolver,  and  what  else?     A.    A  sword. 

Q.     A  sword?     A.    Yes. 

POLICE  ARMED  FOR  AGGRESSIVE  WAR  IN  1919 


Q.     Was  that  equipment   added  to   later   on? 

A.     I  beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  Were  you  given  any  additional  equipment  later,  during 
those  three  years? 

A.  Well,  later  on  we  were  supplied  with  bombs  and  hand 
grenades  and  rockets. 

Q.  And  you  said  you  were  trained  in  the  use  of  these  bombs  and 
hand  grenades  in  March,  1919? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  had  been  in  the  service  then  for  three  years? 

A.     Two  years. 

Q.     What  was  your  home?     A.    County  Clare. 

Q.  When  you  were  assigned  to  police  duty,  you  were  assigned 
to  police  duties  there? 

A.     No,  I  was  sent  to  County  Tipperary. 

Q.  Is  there  a  rule  in  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  with  re- 
gard to  the  assignment  of  men  for  service  in  their  own  counties? 


378 

A.  No,  you  cannot  serve  in  your  native  county. 

Q.  Can  you  serve  in  counties  neighboring  your  own  county? 

A.  Well,  on  some  occasions  you  can. 

Q.  It  depends  upon  the  circumstances?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  What  was  your  first  post? 

A.  My  first  post  was  Clogheen,  County  Tipperary. 

Q.  Did  you  serve  there  throughout  your  three  years? 

A.  Yes,  I  served  in  this  district  while  I  was  there. 

Q.  When  you  say  that  district,  what  do  you  mean? 

A.  I  mean  that  I  was  stationed  about  three  miles   from  there 

in  a  place  called  Ballylooby. 

Q.  And  you  were  stationed  in  this  town? 

A.  Yes,  and  in  Clogheen. 

Q.  So  that  you  were  always  within  a  short  radius? 

A.  Yes,  a  short  radius. 

Q.  Was  Clogheen  a  peaceful  city?     A.   Yes,  sir,  very. 

COMPLETE  ABSENCE  OF  SERIOUS  CRIMES 

Q.  Throughout  your  service  as  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary,  did  you  ever  have  to  make  an  arrest  or  serve  a 
warrant  there? 

A.  No,  I  never  arrested  a  person  there  during  my  time,  and 
I  never  issued  a  summons  against  any  person. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Develop  that  a  little,  will  you,  Mr. 
Crowley? 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  serious  crimes 
committed  by  any  member  of  the  population  while  you  were  there? 

A.  No,  there  was  no  serious  crime  committed  by  any  member 
of  the  population. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  that  incident  of  petty  theft  which  you 
told  me? 

A.  0  yes.  Mr.  Talbot,  the  Protestant  minister  in  Clogheen — 
his  fishing  rod  was  stolen,  and  he  reported  the  matter  to  the  police 
sergeant,  and  the  police  sergeant  could  not  find  his  fishing  rod 
for  him.  And  then  he  reported  it  to  the  Irish  Volunteers,  and  the 
Irish  Volunteers  got  his  fishing  rod  back  for  him.  And  the  con- 
sequence was  that  he  said  that  the  police  service  in  Ireland  was 
useless,  and  that  the  Volunteers  were  far  better. 


379 

ABSOLUTE  RELIGIOUS  HARMONY 

Q.     What   was   the   religious   feeling   between   the   people   there? 

A.     The  religious   peace  was  very  great. 

Q.  So  that  you  never  knew  of  any  disputes  between  the  people 
on  matters  of  religion?     A.    0,  no. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    Did  they  trade  with  one  another  freely? 

A.     0.  yes. 

Q.     Did   they    go    to   each    other's    houses    freely? 

A.     0,  yes,  sir. 

Q.     Mr.   D.   F.  Malone:    How  many   Protestants  there? 

A.     About  thirty  Protestants. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Did  they  hold  any  public  offices? 

A.  Clogheen  being  a  small  place,  sir,  there  was  no  public  office 
there  for  them. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  How  many  constables  were  there  in 
the  barracks? 

A.     Five.     Four  constables  and  a  sergeant. 

Q.     About  how  many  square  miles? 

A.  About  fourteen  thousand,  covering  the  district  around 
Clogheen. 

Q.     Not  fourteen  thousand  square  miles? 

A.     Oh,  no.      Fourteen  thousand  acres,   I   mean. 

Q.  During  the  period  of  three  years  there  were  no  serious 
crimes  committed?     A.    No.  sir;  no  serious  crimes. 

Q.     Nothing  more  serious  than  the  theft  of  a  fishing  rod? 

A.     Nothing  more  serious.     That  is  all,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Crowley,  you  said  there  were  about  thirty  Protestants, 
and  there  was  a  Protestant  clergyman.  And  was  there  a  Catholic 
priest  for  the  entire  diocese  there? 

A.     Yes,  Father  O'Donnelly  and  two  curates. 

Q.  What  was  the  relation  between  the  Protestant  minister  and 
the  Catholic  priest? 

A.     They  lived  on  very  friendly  terms. 

Q.     The  population  of  Clogheen  is  about  six  hundred? 

A.     Yes,  the  population  is  about  six  hundred. 

Q.     And  the  general  area,  inclusive  of  Clogheen? 

A.  Including  the  district  of  Clogheen,  which  Clogheen  took  m, 
I  think  about  two  thousand — that  is,  the  surrounding  lands  which 
went  with  the  village  in  the  police  district. 


330 


GENERAL  LUCAS  ORDERS  SINN  FEINERS 
SUMMARILY  SHOT 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  period  of  time  when  Lord  Mayor 
MacCurtain  of  Cork  was  shot? 

A.     Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  orders  issued  to  police  immediately 
before  and  continuing  for  a  time  after  that  murder  were? 

A.  Yes.  The  orders  issued  where  I  was  stationed  in  Clogheen 
by  General  Lucas,  who  commanded  the  military  forces  of  Cork  and 
Tipperary,  were  that  if  two  police  could  be  spared  to  go  with  the 
military,  they  were  to  go  on  an  armored  car  with  a  machine  gun, 
and  they  were  to  patrol  the  country  night  and  day,  and  every  man 
who  took  a  prominent  part  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  they  were 
to  stand  up  in  front  of  his  house  and  turn  the  machine  gun  on  it. 
In  this  armored  car  there  were  put  one  hundred  twenty  cans  of 
petrol  and  also  one  hundred  twenty  Mills  bombs,  and  the  reason 
for  this  was  that  they  were  for  burning  houses.  That  was  the  orders 
which  General  Lucas,  who  was  afterwards  kidnapped  at  Fermoy, 
gave  in  the  barracks.  If  they  found  a  Sinn  Feiner,  they  were  to  turn 
the  machine  gun  on  him. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  On  him  or  on  his  house? 

A.     On  anything  that  belonged  to  him. 

Q.     Did  you  hear  these  instructions  issued  yourself? 

A.     Yes,  I  was  in  the  barracks  when  he  issued  them. 

Q.     Were  those  general  orders  carried  out? 

A.  The  military  carried  them  out.  I  did  not,  as  did  also  two 
other  men  who  protested  against  it.  I  remember  that  on  the  night 
of  May  21st  myself  and  Constables  Kirwan  and  Galvin — Mr.  Galvin 
will  also  speak  here — we  were  sent  out  on  a  night  patrol,  and  two 
Black-and-Tans  named  Richards  and  Gillett  were  with  us.  And 
about  nine  o'clock  Richards  said  he  wanted  us  to  show  him  where 
Maurice  Walsh  and  William  loseph  Condon  lived;  that  he  was 
going  to  shoot  them.  Condon  was  chairman  of  the  Clogheen  Dis- 
trict Council.  The  only  reason  for  shooting  them  was  that  the 
Sunday  before  these  men  had  said  at  a  meeting  of  the  Council  that 
Clogheen  was  such  a  peaceful  district  that  they  could  well  get  on 
without  the  military  stationed  there.  There  were  one  hundred  of 
the  military  stationed  there  then.  It  was  a  peaceful  district,  and 
so  Walsh  and  Condon  protested  against  such  a  lot  of  military 
stationed  there.  The  acts  of  the  military  were  something  dis- 
graceful. 


381 

DISGRACEFUL  ACTS  OF  MILITARY 

Q.  Describe  what  you  mean  by  "the  acts  of  the  military  were 
something  disgraceful." 

A.  Well,  I  have  seen  them  stop  two  girls  of  the  town  coming 
to  the  Rosary  at  half-past  six  in  the  evening,  and  they  said  to  the 
girls,  "Hands  up,"  and  knocked  them  down.  And  I  came  to  their 
rescue  and  said,  "Stop;  they  are  innocent  girls."  And  I  surely 
believe  that  if  I  had  not  been  there,  they  would  have  been  brutally 
assaulted. 

Q.  What  other  acts  did  you  witness  that  make  you  believe  that 
the  acts  of  the  military  were  something  disgraceful? 

A.  They  were  so  disgraceful  that  Mr.  Talbot,  the  Protestant 
minister  at  Clogheen,  wrote  to  Dublin  Castle  saying  that  their  acts 
and  deeds  in  Clogheen  were  something  shameful,  this  Devonshire 
regiment,  and  he  got  them  sent  out  of  the  district. 

Q.  You  said  that  these  Black-and-Tans  went  out  to  kill  this  man 
Walsh  and  the  other  man.    What  did  you  have  to  do  with  it? 

A.  They  did  not  know  where  these  two  men  lived.  They  only 
wanted  me  and  this  man  Galvin  to  show  them  where  these  two  men 
lived.  They  would  go  and  shoot  them,  they  said,  and  bring  back 
their  ears  as  evidence  to  the  barracks.  We  would  not  show  them, 
and  turned  back  to  the  barracks,  and  begged  Richards  to  come  back 
to  the  barracks.  Richards  got  behind  a  blackthorn  fence.  We 
begged  him  to  come  on  back  with  us.  He  said  that  if  we  came 
one  step  nearer,  he  would  blow  our  brains  out.  We  went  on  down 
the  road,  and  when  we  were  only  about  two  hundred  yards  away, 
he  fired  several  shots  at  us — when  we  were  only  two  hundred  yards 
away. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  Were  those  men  killed  afterwards? 

A.  No.  The  next  day  I  went  into  the  village  and  told  Walsh 
and  Condon  what  Richards  had  done;  that  he  wanted  me  and  Galvin 
to  show  them  where  these  men  lived  so  that  they  could  shoot  them. 
It  went  out  publicly  then,  what  these  Black-and-Tans,  who  were  the 
only  ones  in  the  barracks,  wanted  to  do.  And  they  heard  of  it,  and 
Gillett  pointed  his  loaded  revolver  at  me  three  times  and  wanted 
to  shoot  me.  And  I  guess  they  would  have  shot  me,  but  there  was 
an  Irish  sergeant  there,  and  they  were  afraid  to  do  it. 

Q.     How  many  Black-and-Tans  were  there  in  your  barracks? 

A.     Just  three  of  them. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  how  many  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary? 

A.     There  were  five,  sir. 


382 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  And  one  hundred  military? 

A.     Yes,  one  hundred  military. 

Q.     Who  controls  the  Blaek-and-Tans  there? 

A.  Since  March  last  the  Black-and-Tans  are  under  military 
orders. 

Q.  So  since  March  last  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  are 
the  same  thing? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  You  said  that  Mr.  Walsh  and  Mr.  Condon 
were  not  killed? 

A.     No,  they  are  still  there. 

Q.     Did  they  not  go  on  the  run? 

A.     No,  they  are  still  in  Clogheen. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  ask  about  the  two 
girls  whom  the  Black-and-Tans  commanded  to  throw  up  their  hands. 
What  happened  to  them? 

A.  Well,  on  this  evening,  an  English  soldier  and  six  Black-and- 
Tans  shouted  at  the  girls,  "Hands  up!"  and  they  began  to  search 
them.  And  I  came  on  them  and  said,,  "Stop,  stop.  They  are  inno- 
cent girls!" 

Q.  But  you  had  no  proof  that  they  had  evil  motives.  One  man 
like  yourself  could  not  stop  them  if  they  had. 

The  Witness:  But  what  right  did  they  have  to  assault  the  girls? 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  But  there  was  no  attempt  to  rape?  Their 
clothes  were  not  disheveled? 

A.  No,  there  was  no  rape.  But  they  were  searching  them,  and 
their  clothes  were  disheveled. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  have  had  no  testimony  of  that  kind, 
and  we  want  to  be  positive. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  But  the  girls  were  knocked  down. 

Commissioner  Addams:  He  did  not  say  they  were  knocked  down, 
but  that  they  were  told  to  throw  up  their  hands. 

The  Witness:  No;  one  of  them,  a  Miss  Barrett,  had  fallen  down 
in  the  road. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  You  were  in  uniform? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  knew  these  men? 

A.     Yes,  I  knew  all  of  them. 

Q.     They  were  stationed  in  the  barracks  with  you? 

A.     Yes,  in  the  same  barracks. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  What  was  the  reason  for  stationing  so 
many  of  the  military  in  a  peaceful  district  like  Clogheen? 


383 

A.     Well,  they  were  trying  to  stir  the  people  up,  it  seems  to  me. 
Q.     So  that  as  far  as  your  business  goes,  the  military  there  in  this 
peaceful  district  only  stirred  the  people  up? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

MURDER  OF  POLICE  WHO  RESIGN 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  any  police  murders  after  police  had  re- 
signed? 

A.  Yes,  I  know  of  a  Constable  Fahey  stationed  at  Adare,  in 
County  Limerick.  The  rule  of  the  Government  is  that  a  man  must 
give  from  three  to  six  weeks'  notice  before  he  can  resign.  This 
man  Fahey  was  out  on  duty  one  day  after  he  had  sent  in  his  resig- 
nation. Three  Black-and-Tans  were  with  him,  and  when  they  came 
back  they  said  that  they  were  attacked  by  Sinn  Feiners  and  Fahey 
was  killed.  None  of  them  had  been  injured,  and  they  had  not 
arrested  anybody. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  By  whom  was  he  killed? 

A.     They  said  he  was  attacked  by  Sinn  Feiners. 

Q.     They  were  safe  themselves? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  all  right. 

Q.     Did  you  see  this? 

A.     No,  sir. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  HOMES  OF  REPUBLICAN 
SYMPATHIZERS 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  said  that  this  general  gave 
orders  for  the  homes  and  property  of  Republican  sympathizers  to 
be  destroyed.  How  many  houses  and  hay  ricks  were  destroyed 
where  you  were? 

A.     Well,  none  were  destroyed  around  Clogheen. 

Q.     None  in  Clogheen? 

A.     No,  sir.     But  there  were  in  other  parts  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Why  were  none  destroyed  in  Clogheen? 

A.  Because  the  people  were  so  quiet  there.  The  people  there 
were  in  favor  of  the  military  and  police  going  out  of  Ireland.  They 
were  not  wanted  there. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  This  General  Lucas,  who  was  kidnapped, 
was  treated  very  well  when  he  was  kidnapped,  was  he  not? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

The  Commission:  That  is  beyond  his  knowledge. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Mr.  Chairman,  may  we  get  this  cleared  up  to 
answer  Mr.  Thomas'  question? 


384 

Chairman  Howe:  Yes. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone  (to  Commissioner  Thomas)  :  Did  you  under- 
stand that  the  people  were  not  attacked  because  they  were  so  quiet? 

Commissioner  Thomas:  Yes;  that  is,  because  the  people  were  so 
quiet. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Do  you  remember  the  incident  of  the  raid 
on  Mrs.  Walsh's  home? 

A.     Yes,  I  do. 

Q.     Who  was  Mrs.  Walsh? 

A.  Mrs.  Walsh  lived  about  two  and  a  half  miles  from  Clogheen. 
Her  husband  died  in  May  last. 

Q.     Wait  a  minute,  Mr.  Crowley.     Had  Mrs.  Walsh  any  family? 

A.  Yes,  she  had  three  little  children,  the  eldest  being  about  ten 
years. 

Q.     Where  did  she  live? 

A.     At  Castlegrace. 

Q.     What  happened? 

A.  On  different  occasions  the  military  would  raid  her  house, 
sometimes  at  twelve  o'clock  and  sometimes  at  two.  It  got  so  bad 
that  she  complained  to  County  Inspector  Langhorne,  the  county 
police  inspector  for  the  South  of  Ireland,  and  he  said  it  was  too 
bad,  but  he  could  do  nothing  for  her,  because  the  military  were  not 
under  the  control  of  the  police  inspector. 

Q.     The  Commissioner:  Who  carried  this  on? 

A.     The  military  and  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  Why  did  they  raid  this  house? 

A.  Because  they  suspected  that  the  Volunteers  were  training 
around  there.  But  they  never  found  anything  in  the  house  on  any 
of  the   raids — not   anything. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  Were  you  there? 

A.  I  was  there  on  one  occasion,  and  refused  to  go  into  the  Walsh 
house. 

Q.     Did  you  hear  reports  about  it? 

A.  Yes,  I  heard  reports  in  the  barracks  when  they  got  back,  and 
also  heard  of  it  from  the  Walshs  themselves. 

REASON   FOR    RESIGNING   FROM    CONSTABULARY 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Do  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  and  the  Black- 
and-Tans  get  along  very  well  together? 

A.  No,  they  do  not.  Inspector  General  Smith,  Deputy  Inspector 
Geddis,  Mr.  Pierce,  and  several  others,  and  five  hundred  men  of 
the  ranks,  tendered  their  resignations  from  the  force  during  April 


385 

and  May  because  of  the  present  conditions  that  are  disgracing  the 
service. 

Q.     Out  of  how  many? 

A.     Out  of  nine  thousand  men. 

Q.  The  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  arc  not  used  any  more  alone 
now? 

A.  The  R.  I.  C.  are  not  used  to  carry  out  these  military  orders. 
The  Black-and-Tans  do  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Crowley,  after  you  resigned,  were  any  attempts  made 
against  your  life? 

A.  Yes,  after  I  tendered  my  resignation,  the  Black-and-Tans  put 
loaded  revolvers  up  and  backed  me  up  there  against  the  walls  and 
threatened  to  shoot  me. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  For  what  reason? 

A.  Because  I  had  told  Mr.  Walsh  and  Condon  that  they  were 
going  to  shoot  them. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Where  were  these  Black-and-Tans  from, 
from  England? 

A.     Yes,  from  England;  most  all  ex-army  men. 

Q.     Were  they  officers  from  the  ranks,  or  of  the  office  class? 

A.     Most  of  them  were  from  the  ranks,  or  petty  officers. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Why  did  you  tender  your  resignation  from  the 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  I  tendered  my  resignation  from  the  Constabulary  because  of 
the  misgovernment  of  the  English  in  Ireland. 

POLICE   ORDERED   TO    SHOOT   SINN    FEINERS   AT 
SIGHT 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  incident  at  Listowel  Barracks,  in 
County  Kerry,  when  Colonel  Smyth  made  an  address  to  the  mem- 
bers of  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  Yes,  a  friend  of  mine  was  one  of  the  Constabulary  there. 
Colonel  Smyth  was  there.  He  had  just  come  over  from  Germany, 
from  the  Army  of  Occupation.  There  were  eighteen  or  twenty  of 
the  Constabulary  there,  and  Colonel  Smyth  told  them  that  they 
were  going  to  get  plenty  of  soldiers  from  England  to  crush  out 
Sinn  Fein,  and  that  three  of  them  were  to  remain  in  the  Listowel 
barracks  as  guides  for  the  soldiers,  and  the  rest  were  to  go  to  the 
outlying  barracks  and  point  out  Sinn  Feiners  to  the  military,  and 
every  man  who  took  part  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  was  to  be  shot 
at  sight. 


386 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  When  was  that? 

A.     That  was  in  April,  I  think.1 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  In  April,   1920? 

A.     April,  1920. 

Q.     Just  repeat  what  he  said. 

A.  Colonel  Smyth  told  the  police  that  they  were  all  going  to 
get  every  assistance  from  the  Government — soldiers  and  machine 
guns  and  armored  cars  and  everything  they  needed — and  they  were 
to  patrol  the  roads  five  nights  a  week;  and  they  were  not  to  confine 
themselves  to  the  roads,  but  to  go  across  country,  and  search  homes 
wherever  they  thought  arms  and  munitions  were  hid. 

Q.  You  stated  what  Colonel  Smyth  said  to  do  to  any  man  who 
was  suspected  of  being  of  Republican  sympathies. 

A.  Yes,  any  man  who  was  suspected  of  having  Sinn  Fein  sym- 
pathies was  to  be  shot  at  sight;  Colonel  Smyth  said  the  more  the 
merrier,  and  that  no  man  would  get  into  any  trouble  for  shooting 
them.  He  said  any  man  who  would  not  carry  out  these  orders  had 
better  get  off  the  force.  Sergeant  Sullivan  spoke  immediately  and 
said  that  they  could  tell  Colonel  Smyth  must  be  an  Englishman 
by  his  talk,  and  that  they  would  not  obey  such  orders;  and  he  took 
off  his  coat  and  cap  and  belt  and  laid  them  on  the  table.  Colonel 
Smyth  and  the  Inspector,  O'Shea,  ordered  him  to  be  arrested  for 
causing  disaffection  in  the  force,  but  nineteen  of  them  stood  up  and 
said  if  a  man  touched  him,  the  room  would  run  red  with  blood. 
The  soldiers  whom  Colonel  Smyth  had  with  him  came  in,  but  the 
constables  got  their  loaded  rifles  off  the  racks,  and  Colonel  Smyth 
and  the  soldiers  went  back  to  Cork.  The  very  next  day  they  all  put 
on  civilian  clothes  and  left  the  barracks. 

Q.     They  all  resigned? 

A.     Yes,  they  left  the  very  next  day. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Were  you  in  the  barracks? 

A.  No,  but  my  friend  who  was  there  told  me  about  this.  That 
Colonel  Smyth  went  to  Cork  and  was  shot  five  days  afterwards. 

Q.     This  Smyth  was  an  officer  in  the  British  army? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  he  was  a  colonel. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Was  he  in  the  old  army,  or  was  he  pro- 
moted during  the  war? 

A.     He  was  promoted  during  the  war. 


1  The   actual    date   of   the    speech    was   June    19,    1920.      See    index,    and 
Report  of  Commission,  Appendix  "E." 


387 

BLACK-AND-TANS   PAID   HIGHER  THAN   REGULAR 
POLICE 

Q.     I  would  like  to  ask  you  what  pay  the  constables  received. 

A.  The  wages  were  advanced  in  March,  1919.  When  I  resigned 
we  were  offered  two  shillings  a  day  more  if  we  would  remain.  The 
pay  then  was  twenty  pounds  a  month — in  American  money,  at  pres- 
ent rates  of  exchange,  about  eighty  dollars. 

Q.     And  keep? 

A.     No,  no  keep.     You  supply  that. 

Q.     What  was  the  pay  of  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  The  Black-and-Tans  were  getting  one  and  seven  a  day,  I 
think. 

Q.     One  pound  seven  shillings  a  day? 

A.     Yes;  that  is  twenty-seven  shillings  a  day. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  Why  do  you  say  you  think  that? 

A.     The  pay  was  not  made  known  to  the  R.  I.  C.  in  the  barracks. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  So  that  the  Black-and-Tans  are  getting 
about  twice  what  you  got? 

A.  Well,  they  were  getting  seven  shillings  more  a  day  than  we 
would  get  after  the  raise. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  CREAMERIES  BY  MILITARY 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Mr.  Crowley,  what  can  you  tell  us  about 
the  destruction  of  creameries? 

A.  Well,  1  remember  passing  by  Kilcommon  and  Waycross,  in 
Tipperary,  the  day  after  the  creamery  there  had  been  destroyed. 
There  were  thirty-six  soldiers  and  officers  who  had  taken  crowbars 
and  knocked  down  the  creamery,  saying  they  were  looking  for  arms 
and  ammunition.  They  didn't  find  any,  but  they  wrecked  the 
creamery. 

Q.     Mr.   D.   F.   Malone:   When  was  that? 

A.     It  was  in  the  end  of  March  or  the  first  of  April.1 

SUPPRESSION  OF  FAIRS,  MARKETS,  AND 
RIGHT  OF  ASSEMBLY 
Q.     Were  fairs  and  markets  prohibited  at  this  time? 
A.     Fairs  and  markets  in  Tipperary  were  prohibited  for  about  a 
year,  from  February,   1919,  to  the  end  of  March,   1920 — for  over 
a  year,  that  is. 


1  The  Kilcommon  Central  Creamery  (cooperative)  was  destroyed  April 
10,  1920.  Direct  personal  evidence  was  given  before  the  County  Court 
that  the  damage  was  inflicted  by  military  and  police. 


388 

Q.     What  was  carried  on  at  these  fairs? 

A.  The  chief  purpose  of  these  fairs  was  that  the  Irish  farmers 
could  sell  their  cattle  and  butter  and  their  foodstuffs  in  these  mar- 
kets. The  government  issued  a  proclamation  that  fairs  and  markets 
were  not  to  be  held  in  County  Tipperary. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Are  they  held  there  now? 

A.  They  are  held  there  now,  but  they  were  not  until  March. 
1920. 

Q.     Is  that  general  throughout  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  in  some  counties.  The  proclamation  is  on  in  Cork 
and  Dublin  and  Clare. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  long  have  the  people  been  denied  the 
right  to  assemble  and  to  meet  for  public  meetings  and  public  dis- 
cussions? 

A.  Especially  since  March,  1919,  no  meetings  have  been  allowed 
to  be  held. 

Q.     Is  that  still  true? 

A.  Yes.  If  a  man  wanted  to  sell  his  house  or  farm,  he  could 
not  sell  it  without  a  permit— an  auction  would  not  be  allowed  to 
take  place.  And  if  he  were  a  Sinn  Fein  sympathizer,  he  couldn't 
get  the  permit.  If  a  hunting  match  or  a  football  match  took  place 
without  a  permit,  a  party  of  soldiers  would  come  and  drive  them 
off  the  field  at  the  point  of  the  bayonet. 

Q.     Since  what  time? 

A.     Since  March,  1919. 

NO  SHOOTING  OF  POLICEMEN  TO  WARRANT 
SUPPRESSION  IN  COUNTY  CLARE 

Q.  Now,  in  the  County  of  Clare  were  there  any  murders  of  police 
officers  or  any  interference  with  police  officers  previous  to  March, 
1919? 

A.     In  the  County  of  Clare? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.     No,  there  was  not,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  You  say,  Mr.  Crowley,  that  there 
had  been  orders  to  shoot  on  sight  a  Sinn  Feiner  or  Republican. 
But  that  was  never  done  in  daylight? 

A.     Most  of  the  cases  were  at  night,  yes. 

Q.  So  that  they  did  not  carry  out  that  order  of  shooting  with 
machine  guns  on  sight? 

A.  Well,  they  did.  The  military  carried  out  the  order  in  differ- 
ent places  of  setting  fire  to  houses. 


389 

Q.     Yes.  but  shooting  people  on  sight  was  not   done. 

A.     Not  in  Clogheen.  but  it  was  done  in  other  parts  of  Ireland. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  have  never  had  any  evidence  <>r  hear- 
say of  that  being  done. 

Mr.  Malone:  We  have  not  produced  any  testimony  about  that,  but 
we  can  produce  testimony   ot   many  instances  of  that  kind. 

WHY  SOME   IRISH   POLICE   HAVE   NOT   RESIGNED 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  belong  to  any  Sinn  Fein  organiza- 
tion while  you  were  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  While  I  was  in  the  R.  I.  C.  I  was  in  favor  and  sympathy  with 
the  Irish  movement. 

Q.  But  while  you  were  in  the  R.  I.  C.  did  you  belong  to  any  such 
organization  ? 

A.     No,  I  didn't.     But  I  belonged  to  one  after  I  left. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Miss  Addams1  other  remark  prompts  this 
question:  Why  did  you  or  any  Irishmen  remain  in  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary? 

A.     Well,  I  guess  they  remain  just  for  their  living.     That  is  all. 

Q.  Does  the  fact  that  they  are  nearing  the  time  for  getting  a 
pension,  in  the  ease  of  the  older  men  long  in  the  service — is  that  a 
factor? 

A.  Yes,  there  are  men  of  long  service  who  are  waiting  now  to 
get  a  pension.  If  they  do  not  wait  they  will  be  losing  from  the 
English  Government  about  a  hundred  forty  to  a  hundred  fifty 
pounds  a  year. 

LEFT  IRELAND  TO   PROTECT  LIFE  FROM   BLACK- 
AND-TANS 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Air.  Crowley,  have  you  a  family? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Why  did  you  leave  Ireland? 

A.  I  was  afraid  of  the  Blaek-and-Tans,  that  they  would  follow 
me. 

Q.     You  left  on  account  of  your  health,  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.  I 


390 

Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  other  witnesses  from  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary? 

Mr.  Malone:  Yes,  sir;  three  others. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  TANGNEY 

Chairman  Howe:  Proceed,  Mr.  Malone. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  What  is  your  full  name,  Mr.  Tangney? 

A.  John  Tangney. 

Q.  And  where  were  you  born? 

A.  I  was  born  in  Castleisland,  County  Kerry. 

Q.  How  old  are  you? 

A.  I  am  about  twenty-five. 

Q.  What  education  have  you  had? 

A.  I  was  educated  in  the  national  schools  and  at  the  Christian 
Brothers. 

Q.  Where  are  you  living  now? 

A.  New  York. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  out  of  Ireland? 

A.  Since  August. 

FIVE  YEARS'  SERVICE  IN  CONSTABULARY 

Q.     When  did  you  join  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     I  was  appointed  in  October,  1915. 

Q.     How  long  did  you  remain  in  the  service? 

A.     From  that  date  until  most  of  July  last. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  I  did  not  get  that  date. 

A.     From  the  first  of  October,  1915,  to  July,  1920. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:   During  that  time,  where  were  you  stationed? 

A.  I  was  in  the  southern  part  of  Tipperary.  I  was  temporarily 
stationed  at  Clonmel,  but  my  permanent  station  was  at  Ballylooby. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  Ballylooby  a  Tipperary  name? 

A.     Yes,  it  is  in  Tipperary,  the  southern  part  of  Tipperary. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  So  that  your  entire  service  with  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary  was  in  one  part  of  one  particular  county? 

A.  Well,  I  was  in  various  places  for  a  time,  for  two  or  three 
months.     I  was  in  Limerick  City  and  Cork  City  for  a  time. 

Q.  That  is  just  what  I  wanted  to  know.  Where  did  you  serve 
in  different  places? 

A.  I  was  in  Midstone,  County  Cork,  for  a  short  time,  and  in 
Cork  City  for  a  short  while,  and  in  Limerick  City;  and  on  two  or 
three  occasions  I  was  sent  to  the  north  of  Ireland  for  duty;  but 
that  lasted  only  for  about  a  week  at  a  time.  After  the  Ballylooby 
station  was  quit,  I  was  at  Clogheen. 


391 


Q 


Did  you  hear  Mr.  Crowley's  testimony  just  now? 


A.     Yes,  sir,  I  heard  it. 

Q.     Where  were  you  trained? 

A.     In  Phoenix  Park  Depot,  Dublin. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  that  the  general  training  place? 

A.     Yes,  it  was  at  that  time. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  How  long  were  you  there? 

A.  I  was  six  months  at  that  training  school.  That  was  the  plan. 
If  you  did  not  qualify  for  police  duties  and  the  other  things  you 
were  supposed  to  qualify  in  at  the  end  of  six  months — in  police 
duties  and  physical  drill,  gymnastics — you  would  be  disqualified. 
You  might  have  to  spend  a  short  term  longer,  or  they  could  dis- 
qualify and  suspend  you  and  dismiss  you  at  that  time.  I  qualified 
with  several  hundred  others  at  the  end  of  the  six  months,  and  I  was 
sent  down  to  Clonmel,  in  County  Tipperary,  at  that  time. 

CONSTABULARY  CHANGED  TO  AN  AGGRESSIVE 
ARMED  FORCE 

Q.     What  were  your  instructions  regarding  the  use  of  firearms? 

A.  Except  there  was  a  personal  attack  made  upon  you — that  is, 
in  self-defense — you  were  never  under  any  considerations  to  use 
firearms. 

Q.  And  what  was  the  first  time  thereafter — after  you  had  passed 
your  training  and  were  an  accepted  member  of  the  R.  I.  C. — what 
was  the  first  time  or  stage  at  which  these  orders  were  changed? 

A.  There  was  no  definite  order  for  a  change  to  be  made.  They 
were  changed  gradually.  Like  the  members  of  the  force,  they  were 
changed  gradually  in  the  same  way.  Of  course,  the  police  code 
that  you  had  to  learn  in  the  training  school  said  that  you  were 
never  under  any  circumstances  to  use  your  firearms  except  in  case 
of  personal  attack  in  self-defense. 

Q.  What  use  did  the  R.  I.  C.  have  for  firearms  in  other  cases 
than  personal  attack  and  self-defense? 

A.     For  show  purposes  mainly,  until  the  new  orders  came. 

Q.  Were  orders  to  use  these  arms  for  purposes  of  aggression 
ever  issued? 

A.     Yes,  latterly.     They  were  issued  latterly. 

Q.     When  were  the  first  orders  of  that  kind  issued? 

A.  The  first  orders  of  that  kind  that  came  to  us  from  Dublin 
Castle  was  in  October  of  last  year,  October,  1919. 

Q.     What  were  those  orders? 

A.     First,  this  circular  came  down  from  the  Castle  that  political 


392 

prisoners — a  batch  of  political  prisoners  had  escaped  from  Lincoln 
jail.  Their  names  and  descriptions  were  given  in  this  official  docu- 
ment, as  it  is  termed,  The  Hue  and  Cry.  Their  descriptions  and 
ages  were  given.  The  first  order  was  that  they  were  to  be  arrested 
if  they  came  within  view — within  our  notice  anywhere.  That  was 
the  wording  of  the  first  article.  They  were  to  be  treated  in  the  first 
article  just  the  same  as  a  criminal.  Following  that  article  there 
was  the  receipt  of  an  order  they  called  a  confidential  article  by 
the  sergeant  of  the  station  on  November  fourth,  stating  that  if  these 
political  prisoners  were  seen  and  in  case  they  came  within  the  police 
notice  and  they  offered  the  slightest  resistance,  they  were  to  be 
shot  dead. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  These  were  political  prisoners? 

A.  Yes.  They  named  one  in  particular.  I  did  not  know  what 
position  he  held.     His  name  was  Mr.  Stack. 

Q.     His  name  was  specifically  mentioned? 

A.  Yes.  Since  I  left  the  force,  I  found  that  he  was  an  Irish 
M.  P.  (Member  of  Parliament)  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement.  Of 
course  I  did  not  know  from  The  Hue  and  Cry  what  position  he  held. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Now,  let  me  see.  Stack  was  one  of  the  men 
elected  in  the  elections  of  1918  to  the  British  Parliament? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  right,  sir. 

Q.  And  instead  of  going  to  the  British  Parliament,  he  went  to 
the  Irish  Parliament? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  he  was  in  prison  and  escaped? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  an  escaped  prisoner. 

POPULATION  NEVER  BETRAYS  POLITICAL 
REFUGEES 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Why  is  it  that  s-o  many  men  known  to  be 
on  the  run  in  Ireland — with  apparently  thousands  of  men  on  the  run 
— why  are  they  not  easily  apprehended? 

A.  Well,  I  could  not  answer  that  question  as  regards  political 
prisoners. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Is  not  the  reason  that  the  British  soldiers  do 
not  know  them  by  name,  and  they  would  be  shooting  the  first  man 
they  met,  because  they  are  all  on  the  run? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  that  is  so. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Is  it  not  true  that  the  population  is  largely  on 
the  run  with  them? 


393 

A.     Yes,  certainly. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Then  it  would  be  right  to  say  that  the 
population  of  Ireland  protects  these  men  on  the  run? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  absolutely.  Since  the  inception  of  the  Sinn  Fein 
movement — as  the  Irish  Government  officially  puts  it,  since  1918 — 
never  have  I  heard  anyone,  even  unconnected  with  the  Sinn  Fein 
movement,  uttering  a  word  about  them  in  the  Sinn  Fein  movement 
who  are  wanted. 

Q.  Then  the  people  do  not  give  information  about  them,  or  give 
them  up? 

A.  No,  no.  There  was  thousands  of  pounds  offered  for  informa- 
tion for  their  arrest,  but  it  was  all  fruitless.  None  were  ever  given 
up,  or  information  forwarded. 

Q.     It  was  fruitless? 

A.  It  was  fruitless.  There  was  one  case  in  the  King's  Bench 
court  in  Dublin  City  where  a  man  gave  information  about  the  kill- 
ing of  a  policeman;  and  the  judge  from  the  bench  called  the  in- 
former a  liar  in  the  same  breath. 

Q.     That  is  the  only  case  you  ever  heard  of? 

A.  It  is  the  only  case  I  ever  heard  of.  In  our  own  barracks  I 
had  to  post  up  notices  offering  a  reward  of  five  to  six  hundred 
pounds  for  anyone  who  would  go  into  the  barracks  and  give  secret 
information  about  the  location  of  certain  prisoners.  But  that  was 
fruitless. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  it  not  true  that  there  are  people  still  in 
Ireland  who  will  come  forward  and  give  information  leading  to 
the  arrest  of  these  men  who  are  wanted? 

A.  Well,  that  is  the  information  I  have  to  offer.  Even  with 
these  large  sums,  the  people  will  not  give  the  information. 

Q.  And  that  explains  the  comparative  immunity  of  these  men 
who  are  on  the  run — why  they  can  go  from  house  to  house  with 
safety? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  R.  I.  C?  Do  they  help  the  British  Govern- 
ment in  apprehending  these  men? 

A.     Certainly,  they  did.     They  did. 

Q.     Are  their  sympathies  with  their  jobs  or  with  Ireland? 

A.  They  haven't  very  much  of  their  old  jobs  left  to  them.  The 
only  thing  that  you  had  to  do  as  a  policeman  since  1918  was  to  lead 
the  military  around  and  point  out  the  men  they  wanted  to  get,  or 
to  follow  up  the  Sinn  Fein  prisoners. 

Q.     But  the  constables  did  perform  their  duties? 

A.     That  is  the  only  duty  left  for  them  to  do.     I  said  since  1918, 


394 

because  that  was  when  the  orders  changing  the  police  code  were 
given  me. 

Q.     But  the  R.  I.  C.  still  do  their  work? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  all  they  can  do. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  The  reason  that  these  men  avoid  arrest  is 
that  they  can  go  from  one  village  to  another  and  no  one  will  betray 
them? 

A.  There  is  not  one  single  case  where  the  Irish  people  have 
betrayed  men  on  the  run. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  May  I  ask  Miss  MacSwiney  if  that  is  her 
experience  too? 

A.  Miss  MacSwiney:  Oh,  yes,  certainly;  the  Irish  people  will 
not  inform. 

Q.     No  informers?     A.    No  informers. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Do  you  remember  the  orders  issued  by  General 
Deasey?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  instance,  when  did  the  military  first  come  to  police  this 
section  in  Tipperary  when  you  were  a  member  of  the  force?  When 
did  they  begin  to  come? 

A.     Not  actively  until  the  beginning  of  this  year. 

Q.  When  did  they  come  in  large  numbers,  before  or  after  the 
murder  of  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork? 

A.  It  might  coincide  that  they  came  exactly  then,  but  they  came 
some  time  before  and  about  the  same  date.  Of  course  they  were 
spread  throughout  the  whole  southern  part  of  Ireland  at  that  time. 

Q.     Who  was  General  Deasey? 

A.  He  was  a  divisional  commissioner  appointed  for  the  southern 
province  of  Munster.    He  had  control  of  the  military  and  police. 

Q.     He  was  a  British  general? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  a  brigadier  general.  He  held  one  of  the  highest 
ranks  in  the  army,  that  of  a  brigadier  general. 

Q.     When  did  he  come  to  Ireland? 

A.     In  March  of  last  year  he  was  appointed. 

Q.     In  March,  1919? 

A.  Yes,  March,  1919.  His  business  was  making  occasional  tours 
of  the  barracks  and  the  instruction  and  inspection  of  the  men,  par- 
ticularly those  of  this  new  force  known  as  the  Black-and-Tans.  He 
was  on  a  special  conference  with  them. 

BLACK-AND-TANS   TRAINED   AS    MILITARY, 
IGNORANT  AS  POLICE 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Before  we  get  to  the  orders,  when  did  this  new 
force,  the  Black-and-Tans,  come  to  Ireland? 

A.  The  first  that  I  saw  was  in  March,  and  the  first  that  came 
to  the  barracks  where  I  was  stationed  was  in  April. 


395 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:    1920? 

A.  1920,  yes.  Of  course  I  saw  them  going  through  the  county, 
but  the  first  that  came  to  our  barracks  was  in  April. 

Q.     How  did  they  differ  from  the  police?     Were  they  trained? 

A.  Yes,  as  regards  military  work,  they  were;  but  as  regards 
police  duties,  they  had  nothing  like  that.  They  trained  them  in  a 
special  training  school  in  County  Kildare,  while  our  training  was 
in  Phoenix  Park  in  Dublin.  It  took  us  six  months,  and  most  of  them 
got  through  their  training  in  six  days. 

Q.     Were  they  efficient  in  their  duties? 

A.  They  absolutely  knew  nothing  about  police  duties.  On  one 
occasion  there  was  a  county  inspector  whose  duty  it  was  to  visit  the 
barracks.  He  was  trying  to  instruct  these  fellows,  and  we  were  all 
in  the  barracks,  for  we  had  to  go  to  school  to  him.  And  he  asked 
this  fellow  what  was  his  power  of  arrest,  and  he  said  he  didn't 
know.  He  tried  to  make  it  simpler  to  him.  He  said,  "If  you  see 
a  man  on  the  street,  and  you  ask  him  to  give  you  his  name  and 
address,  and  he  refuses,  what  would  you  do?"  And  this  Black-and- 
Tan  said,  "If  I  met  a  man  on  the  street  and  asked  him  his  name 
and  address,  and  he  refused,  I  would  lift  him  right  under  the  jaw, 
and  the  next  thing  I  would  use  my  bayonet.  That  is  what  I  would 
do  to  the  man." 

ARMED  MILITARY  INVADE  RELIGIOUS  SERVICES 

Q.     Now  tell  us  about  General  Deasey.     What  were  his  orders? 

A.     The  original  orders  were  issued  in  May. 

Q.     1920?    A.   1920. 

Q.     Just  tell  us  what  these  orders  were. 

A.  These  orders  were  that  all  policemen  should  go  to  mass — it 
mentioned  Roman  Catholics  particularly — that  they  were  to  go  to 
mass  in  formation.  The  two  in  front  were  to  take  revolvers  and 
the  last  two  were  to  take  rifles.  The  revolvers  were  to  be  worn 
with  lanyards.  The  two  with  rifles  were  to  keep  their  rifles  at  the 
ready  with  bullets  in  the  breech  until  mass  was  over.  And  when 
mass  was  over  they  were  to  march  through  the  crowds  the  same  way. 
And  if  there  was  any  hostility  shown,  they  were  to  shoot.  That 
was  the  general  tenor  of  the  orders.  It  might  not  be  the  exact 
words. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  I  understand  that  these  military  officers 
were  up  in  front  of  the  church  standing  with  drawn  rifles? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  ready  to  fire. 

Q.  Was  it  for  self-protection  during  the  service,  or  was  it  to 
preserve  order  in   the  church  during  divine  services? 


396 

A.     It  did  not  state- that  it  was  for  self-preservation. 

Q.     What  did  it  state  it  was  for? 

A.  Anybody  who  read  the  order  could  see  that  it  was  to  try  and 
goad  the  people  on.  And  more  than  that,  it  related  particularly 
to  the  R.  C.'s— that  is,  the  Roman  Catholics. 

Q.     Was  that  for  every  religious  service? 

A.     Just  for  the  Roman  Catholic  services. 

Q.  I  know,  but  was  this  order  for  these  men  to  go  to  every 
service  that  way,  or  was  it  for  them  to  go  only  when  they  went 
themselves  to  a  service? 

A.     I  do  not  understand  you,  sir. 

Q.  We  are  trying  to  find  out  if  this  order  was  framed  so  that 
when  Catholic  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  went  to 
divine  services  they  should  go  in  a  certain  way  as  a  protection  to 
themselves,  or  whether  it  was  an  order  for  them  to  go  to  divine 
services  whenever  they  were  held,  so  that  the  people  should  see  them 
and  know  that  they  were  there. 

A.  That  was  the  order,  and  anybody  reading  it  would  think  that 
that  would  be  what  they  meant  by  attending  services  with  drawn 
rifles.     It  was  to  terrify  people,  it  seemed  to  me. 

Q.  But  if  there  were  two  services  in  the  same  day,  were  they 
to  go  to  both  services? 

A.  Four  of  them  were  to  go  to  one  service  and  four  to  the  other. 
They  were,  if  possible,  to  attend  every  service. 

Senator  Walsh :  That  is  what  I  was  trying  to  get  at. 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Did  they  attend  Protestant  services  also? 

A.     Oh,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  stand  in  front  of  the  church  with  drawn  guns 
for  self -protection? 

A.  Oh,  no,  sir.  They  would  have  been  safer  behind.  If  any- 
body had  wanted  to  shoot  them,  they  only  made  targets  out  of 
themselves  by  standing  in  the  front  of  the  church. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Whose  orders  were  these? 

A.     General  Deasey's  orders. 

ORDERED  TO  BAYONET  SINN  FEIN 
SYMPATHIZERS 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Was  there  another  order? 

A.  Yes,  that  was  in  the  barracks.  There  were  six  Black-and- 
Tans  present  when  General  Deasey  came  to  the  barracks,  and  he 
was  questioning  them  about  what  they  knew  about  Sinn  Feiners 
and  the  movement  that  was  going  on   in  the  southern  part  of  the 


397 

country.  And  he  said  that  in  case  they  were  able  to  identify  a 
person  with  Sinn  Fein  sympathies  passing  the  barracks  or  going 
near  the  barracks,  to  bayonet  him  and  not  to  waste  good  powder 
on  him,  but  to  just  bayonet  him. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Was  that  before  the  raids  were  made  on  the 
barracks? 

A.     That  was  in  May  or  June  of  this  year. 

Q.     But  there  were  many  raids  made  on  barracks. 

A.     They  were  not  raided  there  then. 

Q.     In  that  locality? 

A.  No,  there  were  no  raids  in  that  locality-  It  was  uncalled  for 
in  that  locality. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  There  were  no  raids  on  the  barrack 
in  which  you  were  stationed? 

A.  No,  there  were  none  whatever.  It  was  a  most  peaceful 
district. 

Q.     Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Now  tell  us  about  the  feis  incident. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  whether,  at 
the  time  when  this  order  was  given  about  the  squads  of  police  going 
to  church  under  arms,  there  had  been  any  disturbances  in  any  of 
the  parish  churches? 

A.  No,  there  had  never  been.  There  had  never  been  in  any  of 
the  churches  with  which  I  am  acquainted. 

Q.     There  had  been   no   disturbances? 

A.     None  whatever. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  It  was  to  terrify  the  people? 

A.  Yes,  anybody  who  read  the  order  would  see  that.  It  was  to 
terrify  the  people.  Redman  and  Foley  were  the  first  Black-and- 
Tans  that  came  to  the  Ballyporeen  barracks,  and  they  had  special 
instructions  given  to  them  in  the  office  apart  from  the  rest  of  us. 
None  of  those  fellows  used  to  go  to  any  service,  although  they  were 
supposed  to  be  Protestants.  In  fact,  on  one  occasion  the  sergeant 
told  them  that  it  was  in  the  code — in  the  police  regulations — that 
they  should  attend  whatever  service  they  belonged  to,  and  one  of 
them  said  that  if  he  mentioned  service  again  he  would  send  him 
to  a  place  where  he  could  not  go  to  any  service.  When  the  inspec- 
tor came,  he  used  to  take  them  upstairs  to  the  sergeant's  office,  apart 
from  us,  and  have  a  special  conference  with  them.  After  this  order 
was  issued  by  General  Deasey,  I  noticed  from  my  own  observations 
that  during  service,  while  the  four  men  were  at  service  in  the  Cath- 
olic church,  none  of  them  left  the  barracks  or  stirred  from  the  inside 
of  it.  That  was  the  first  Sunday  that  the  order  came  into  effect, 
and  the  Roman  Catholics  had  to  so  to  service  or  else  resign.     Then 


398 

the  inspector  had  the  conference  with  them,  and  on  the  next  Sunday 
one  of  them  would  go  by  the  Catholic  church  occasionally  to  see 
if  there  was  any  trouble.  And  then  they  had  these  bombs — a  couple 
of  hundred  bombs  in  the  barracks. 

Q.     So  that  they  held  these  men  at  the  barracks  in  reserve? 

A.  Yes,  they  held  these  six  men  in  reserve  in  the  barracks  during 
the  service.  My  idea  was  that  if  anything  turned  up  at  service,  they 
could  pounce  upon  them  with  the  bombs  and  rifles  loaded. 

Q.  Tell  me  this:  this  order  that  was  issued  about  attending  mass 
was  a  secret  order?  Was  it  not  the  order  that  the  sergeant  showed 
you? 

A.  Yes,  yes;  this  was  the  one  that  the  sergeant  showed  me.  It 
was  a  confidential  order,  always  kept  locked  up.  But  the  sergeant, 
who  was  a  Catholic,  showed  it  to  me. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  there  any  orders  about  interfering  with 
the   preacher? 

A.     No,  none  at  all. 

ORDERED   TO  SUPPRESS   POPULAR  FESTIVAL  BY 
FORCE 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Mr.  Tangney,  will  you  go  on  and  tell  about 
this  feis  incident? 

A.  That  happened  in  June,  1918.  I  was  stationed  at  Ballylooby 
at  the  time.  On  Saturday  night  an  order  came  that  two  men  would 
proceed  fully  armed  and  equipped  to  Tipperary  town.  We  pro- 
ceeded there,  and  when  we  collected  there,  there  were  about  fifty 
police.  We  were  put  in  the  military  barracks  and  billeted  there  for 
the  night.  The  morning  after,  we  proceeded  to  the  regular  police 
barracks  in  the  town.  We  were  marched.  We  got  no  definite  orders 
of  what  our  duties  would  be  after  we  left  the  barracks  until  Sunday 
morning.  Then  we  were  lined  up  in  the  barrack  square,  and  there 
was  an  inspector  there  named  Lowndes.  He  was  what  was  known 
as  a  special  county  inspector,  sent  to  Tipperary  County  to  investi- 
gate what  they  call  crimes. 

Q.     A  plain-clothes  man? 

A.  Yes,  in  civilian  clothes.  This  morning  he  addressed  us  in  the 
back  yard  of  the  barrack  square,  and  said  that  we  had  come  for 
duty.  We  thought  it  was  a  declaration  of  war  of  some  kind.  He 
said  there  was  going  to  be  a  feis — that  is,  a  country  gathering  where 
there  is  Irish  dancing  and  Irish  music  and  the  like — there  was  going 
to  be  a  feis  in  Lisvarrinane,  some  three  miles  from  there.  He  said, 
"The  military  authorities  have  forbidden  this  feis  to  take  place, 
and  it  is  not  going  to  be  held;  but  from  information  that  we  have 


399 

received,  the  people  are  going  to  hold  it  anyway.  But  we  are  going 
to  put  it  down.  And  any  man  who  is  not  willing  to  do  his  duty 
this  day  had  better  drop  out  of  the  ranks."  No  man  said  anything, 
so  we  lined  up  in  military  ranks  and  proceeded  out  on  the  streets, 
and  there  were  five  military  lorries  out  there,  and  we  got  into  the 
lorries.  There  were  two  armored  cars — not  tanks,  but  armored  cars, 
with  machine  guns,  that  went  along  too. 

We  proceeded  to  Lisvarrinane,  this  village  where  the  feis  was  to 
be  held;  and  the  people  coming  along  from  mass,  at  the  sight  of 
these  lorries  and  the  military  and  the  police  and  all  the  other  war 
material,  fled  in  terror  like  bees.  Horses  went  away  from  their 
owners'  hands  and  jumped  into  side  ditches,  taking  carts,  passen- 
gers, and  all.  When  finally  we  arrived  in  the  village  there  were 
certain  police  tolled  off  to  assist  the  military.  Their  orders  were 
if  they  saw  anybody  going  toward  the  village,  they  were  to  turn 
them  back,  and  fire  on  them  if  it  was  necessary  to  turn  them  back. 

Q.  Mr.  Tangney,  I  think  it  will  hasten  matters  if  you  will  just 
tell  what  you  saw  happen  after  you  got  there — what  you  had  to  do. 

DRUNKEN  OFFICERS   IN  COMMAND 

A.  That  was  one  thing.  The  military  were  divided  up.  Well, 
then,  this  County  Inspector  Lowndes  had  the  orders,  and  he  ad- 
journed to  an  adjoining  saloon  and  had  a  drink,  and  two  young 
military  officers,  who  were  in  charge  of  the  military  party,  adjourned 
to  the  place  with  him  and  got  stupidly  drunk. 

Q.     So  that  the  three  officers  in  charge  of  this  party  were  drunk? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  all  three  were  drunk.  There  were  some  Irish  ter- 
riers outside  the  saloon  door,  and  the  officers  took  these  dogs  and 
threw  them  at  each  other,  and  tried  to  get  them  to  fight.  "Yes," 
they  said,  "we  will  have  to  put  the  dogs  to  fight,  for  the  Irish  dogs 
will  not  come  out  and  fight  us." 

Q.     What's  that?     Will  you  repeat  that  whole  statement? 

A.  They  said,  "We  will  have  to  put  the  dogs  to  fight,  for  the 
Irish  dogs  will  not  come  out  and  fight  us."  Well,  we  went  home, 
and  the  military  were  flashing  revolvers  and  yelling  all  the  way 
back. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  is  that,  flashing? 

A.  Firing,  firing  their  revolvers.  I  myself  had  to  come  to  a 
soldier  who  was  stupidly  drunk  and  take  a  revolver  out  of  his  hand. 
He  was  stupidly  drunk. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Was  that  all  there  was  to  that  particular  inci- 
dent? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  all. 


400 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Now,  wait  a  moment,  Mr.  Malone.  What 
had  taken  place  in  that  village  previous  to  that  night  which  could 
he  in  any  way  advanced  as  a  reason  or  excuse  for  this  military 
expedition? 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  What  was  the  reason  given  lor  this  raid'.'' 

A.     Nothing,  except  that  this  feis  was  advertised  to  he  held. 

Q.     Was  it  held? 

A.     Oh,  no,  it  was  not. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  And  this  military  expedition  broke  it  up? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  they  would  have  broken  it  up  if  it  had  been  held. 
But  the  people  did  not  hold  it  after  the  military  said  they  couldn't. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  know  of  any  other  feis  or  celebra- 
tions broken  up? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  broken  up.  Previous  to  that  it  was  the  com- 
mon practice  all  over  the  country  to  hold  them,  and  they  have  been 
broken  up. 

Q.     This  was  in  1918? 

A.     Yes,  in  1918. 

Q.     Was  it  more  or  less  a  general  custom  to  break  them  up? 

A.     Yes,  in  1918  it  was  quite  general. 

Q.     Are  they  being  held  now? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  whether  they  are  being  held  this  summer 
or  not. 

DRUNKEN  BLACK-AND-TANS  FIGHT  IN  BARRACKS 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Mr.  Witness,  did  you  ever  see  any  fights  be- 
tween the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did  on  several  occasions.  In  the  barracks  where 
I  was  stationed  there  were  six  of  them.  On  two  occasions  the  whole 
six  of  them  turned  out  of  the  barracks  and  went  up  town  and — of 
course  they  always  had  plenty  of  money — and  they  came  back 
stupidly  drunk.  They  were  the  lowest  type  of  humanity.  The  first 
order  they  gave  when  they  got  back  was  to  "clear  the  room."  That 
was  the  day  room.  They  told  the  sergeant  l^o  get  out,  and  he  did 
get  out.  I  was  supposed  to  be  in  charge  of  the  barracks  that  time, 
and  I  could  not  go  out.     I  and  another  man,  Mr.  Galvin — 

Q.     Who  is  that? 

A.  Mr.  Galvin,  who  is  here.  After  that  they  got  the  shotguns 
that  were  in  the  racks  and  loaded  them.  They  did  not  actually  fire 
any  shots  because  I  took  one  of  the  shotguns  away  from  them  and 
Galvin  took  the  other.  And  they  then  got  the  butts  of  rifles — they 
did  not  have  time  to  load  them.     And  when  they  got  through  I  had 


401 

to  mop  up  the  blood  from  the  floor  of  the  room.  They  were  fighting 
one  another  like  idiots. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:   Like  what? 

A.  Like  idiots.  They  were  fighting  like  wild  men,  they  were 
that  drunk. 

Q.  Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Do  you  know  of  any  fights  between  Black- 
and-Tans.  or  between  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary, which  have  resulted  in  the  deaths  either  of  Black-and- 
Tans  or  of  R.  I.  C? 

A.  Well,  I  was  not  a  witness  to  any  of  them,  but  I  do  know  of 
one  that  was  actually  true — an  occurrence  in  the  city  of  Dublin, 
where  one  of  them,  on  the  pretext  of  cleaning  his  rifle,  shot  the 
sergeant  in  charge  of  the  station. 

Q.  The  point  I  wish  to  make  is  that  there  were  fights  between 
the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  Black-and-Tans,  and  fights  between  the  Black- 
and-Tans  themselves. 

A.  Oh,  certainly.  The  time  when  the  Black-and-Tans  came  to 
the  barracks,  the  R.  I.  C.  hardly  spoke  to  them.  Of  course  they 
wanted  to  get  information  from  some  of  the  men.  They  wanted 
them  to  point  out  people  and  houses  and  the  like. 

REASONS  FOR  RESIGNING  FROM  CONSTABULARY 

Q.  Will  you  state  when  you  resigned,  and  your  reasons  for 
resigning? 

A.     I  resigned  the  first  of  July. 

Q.     When? 

A.  1920,  the  present  year.  I  sent  in  my  resignation  on  that  date, 
and  I  was  to  be  discharged  on  the  first  of  August.  I  was  discharged 
a  few  days  before,  on  the  twenty-fourth  of  July. 

Q.     Why  did  you  resign? 

A.  I  resigned  for  many  reasons.  The  main  reason  was  that  there 
was  nothing  left  for  me  to  do  except  to  leave  the  military  to  butcher. 

Q.     When  you  resigned,  how  long  had  you  been  in  the  service? 

A.     About  five  years,  from  October,  1915,  to  July,  1920. 

Q.  When  you  resigned,  that  meant  that  you  had  to  sacrifice 
your  pension? 

A.     Yes,  I  had  to  sacrifice  that. 

Q.     Is  there  a  pension? 

A.  Yes,  certainly;  you  get  three-fourths  of  the  annual  pay  as  a 
pension. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  That  is  all. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  a  rule  or  an  order  in   Ireland   in 


402 

June,  1918,  against  people  assembling  together  for  fairs  or  public 
gatherings? 

A.     In  1918? 

Q.     Yes. 

A.     In  certain  parts  there  was. 

Q.  Was  there  in  this  place  where  you  and  the  military  authori- 
ties went  out  to  break  up  the  meeting? 

A.     Oh,  no;  there  was  no  order  at  that  time. 

Q.  So  that  there  was  no  apparent  violation  of  law  by  the  people 
advertising  that  they  were  to  have  this  meeting? 

A.     None  whatever. 

BLACK-AND-TANS    DISLIKED    BY   CONSTABULARY 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  The  R.  I.  C.  were  almost  wholly  Irishmen? 

A.     Yes,  they  were,  almost  all  of  them. 

Q.     Wholly  recruited  from  Ireland?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     The  Black-and-Tans  were  wholly  recruited  from  England? 

A.     Yes,  every  one  of  them. 

Q.  Did  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  and  the  Black-and-Tans 
fraternize  together?  Did  they  associate  together  in  a  friendly  sort 
of  way? 

A.     Oh,  no;  they  were  roughnecks. 

Q.  That  was  generally  true — the  R.  I.  C.  had  nothing  to  do  with 
the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Oh,  I  would  not  say  that  they  had  nothing  to  do  with  them, 
but  that  they  had  no  friendship  for  them,  and  they  had  nothing 
more  to  do  with  them  than  necessary. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  That  is  all. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  ANNA  MURPHY 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  Mrs.  Murphy,  please. 

Q.  Mrs.  Murphy,  where  were  you  born? 

A.  In  New  Ross,  County  Wexford,  Ireland. 

Q.  What  was  your  education? 

A.  In  the  national  schools,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  attend  any  other  than  the  national  schools? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  went  to  a  boarding  school  in  County  Sligo  for  two 
years. 

Q.  Is  your  husband  alive? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


403 

Q.  Is  he  an  American  citizen? 

A.  No,  sir,  he  is  not,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  he  first  come  to  this  country? 

A.  Seven  years  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  come  at  that  same  time? 

A.  Four  years  next  February,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  children  have  you? 

A.  Just  the  one,  sir. 

Q.  Michael? 

A.  Yes,  Michael. 

Q.  Did  you  visit  Ireland  during  the  past  year? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  was  a  year  and  three  months  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Why  did  you  go  to  Ireland? 

A.  To  benefit  my  health,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  you  were  in  Ireland,  where  did  you  stay? 

A.  At  my  home  in  New  Ross. 

Q.  Are  your  parents  alive? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  you  stay  with  them? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a  town  is  New  Ross? 

A.  A  small  town. 

Q.  An  industrial  town? 

A.  No,  sir,  a  market  town. 

Q.  A  very  peaceful  and  quiet  town? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  large  is  the  population? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  When  were  the  troops,  the  Black-and-Tans,  sent  to  New  Ross? 

A.  Last  Easter,  sir. 

Q.  That  would  be  1920? 

A.  1920. 

CHILD  SHOT  BECAUSE  OF  NEW  CURFEW  ORDER 

Q.  And  when  was  the  curfew  law  put  into  effect? 

A.  Last  August  in  New  Ross,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  were  there  at  the  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do   you   know    whether   or   not    any    persons    were   shot   for 
violations  of  the  curfew  order? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  about  the  killing  of  the  little  girl? 


404 

A.     She  was  not  killed;  she  was  shot,  sir. 

Q.     Now,   tell   the   Commission   about  that. 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  When  did  this  happen? 

A.     That  happened  about  the  eighth  of  September. 

Q.     Did  you  witness  it? 

A.     I  did,  sir.     The  little  girl   was  sent  out  by  her  mother  on — 

Q.     What  was  her  name? 

A.     Lillie  Furlong. 

Q.     How  old  was  she? 

A.  About  eight.  The  little  girl  did  not  know  about  the  curfew- 
law,  and  the  mother  sent  her  out  on  an  errand,  and  the  Black-and- 
Tans  called  to  her  to  stop.  She  was  so  scared  that  she  began  to 
run,  and  they  fired,  and  she  was  shot  in  the  back.  She  has  been  in 
the  infirmary  since. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  She  has  been  where? 

A.     In  the  infirmary. 

Q.     Did  you  know  the  mother  of  the  child? 

A.     I  did,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  it  happen  that  the  mother  did  not  know  that  there 
was  a  curfew  law? 

A.  They  were  after  some  boys  on  the  run,  but  she  did  not  know 
about  that. 

Q.  But  why  did  she  not  know  about  the  curfew  law?  Could  she 
not  read? 

A.  She  could,  sir.  But  the  curfew  law  was  usually  ten  o'clock, 
but  on  this  particular  night  it  was  nine  o'clock,  and  the  mother  did 
not  know  it.  They  had  put  it  on  an  hour  early  because  they  were 
after  these  boys  on  the  run. 

ROUGHLY    SEARCHED    WITH    BABE    IN    ARMS    BY 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  What  other  experiences  have  you  had  with  the 
Black-and-Tans? 

A.  About  three  nights  before  I  left  Ireland,  I  was  saying  good- 
bye to  some  friends,  and  it  was  about  half  ten;  and  I  met  an  officer 
and  some  Back-and-Tans  as  I  was  going  home,  and  they  told  me  to 
put  up  my  hands,  and  I  said  I  could  not,  because  I  could  not  lay 
the  baby  down,  and  they  said  I  must;  and  I  told  them  I  could  not 
on  account  of  the  baby,  but  that  they  could  search  me,  and  they  did. 
They  tore  open  my  clothes  and  searched  me  while  I  held  the  baby 
in  my  arms.     And  they  got  through  and  did  not  find  anything.     It 


105 

was  about  an  hour  afterwards  when  1  got  home.  1  really  don't 
know  how  I  got  home.     And  1  was  all  wet. 

Q.     It  was  raining?      A.    Yes,  it  was  raining  very  much. 

Q.     I  suppose  that  they  searched  the  baby  for  firearms? 

A.     Oh,  ves,  they  did.     They  opened  his  clothes  and  searched  him. 

Q.     Were  they  gentle  and  considerate  about  it? 

A.  No,  sir,  they  were  not.  They  were  very  rough,  sir,  and  when 
they  got  through  they  pushed  me  into  the  door. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Were  you  on  the  street?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     And  they  pushed  you  into  what  door? 

A.     They  pushed  me  into  the  door  of  the  hardware  store. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  On  the  street  of  the  village?     A.    Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  About  that  little  girl  who  was  shot,  that 
child  of  eight  years:  how  badly  was  she  injured? 

A.     The  mother  said  that  she  wras  shot  in  the  spine. 

Q.      It  was  very  serious,  then? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     The  mother  said  she  might  be  injured  for  life. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Will  you  please  state  your  full  name,  Mrs. 
Murphy?     A.    Mrs.  Anna  Murphy. 

Q.     And  your  address?     A.    348  West  18th  Street,  New  York. 

BLACK  BREAD  AND  NO  MILK  FOR  BABIES 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Mrs.  Murphy,  can  you  describe  what  the  condi- 
tions are  in  Ireland  today,  as  you  observed  them  and  know  them 
to  be.  due  to  the  work  of  the  Black-and-Tans  and  other  conditions? 

A.  Very  hard,  sir.  The  people  pay  very  high  prices  for  food, 
and  when  they  get  it  they  can  hardly  use  it.  They  can  hardly  eat 
the  bread  because  it  is  so  hard  and  black. 

Q.     Could  you  get  milk? 

A.     No,  I  could  not  get  milk  for  the  baby. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Could  you  when  you  first  went  there? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not.  At  best  I  could  get  less  than  a  half  a 
pint  of  milk  at  night  for  the  baby,  sir. 

Q.     Is  this  condition  general? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  many  of  the  babies  cannot  get  milk,  sir. 

Q.     Are  any  of  them  sick  on  account  of  it? 

A.     Yes,  many  of  them  are,  sir. 

Q.     Are  there  not  plenty  of  cattle  in   Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  lots  of  them,  but  the  people  cannot  get  milk  in  the 
towns. 


406 

MILK  FAMINE  IN  TOWNS  DUE  TO  DESTRUCTION 
OF  CREAMERIES 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  burning  of  creameries  in 
Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  I  do,  sir.     There  were  two  burned  near  us,  sir. 

Q.     Where?     Near  your  town? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  one  burned  about  two  and  a  half  miles 
from  our  town.     It  was  a  very  fine  creamery,  built  in  1914. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  When  was  it  burned? 

A.     In  Easter  of  this  year. 

Q.     Do  you  know  why  that  creamery  was  burned? 

A.  No,  sir;  except  that  they  said  there  was  barracks  burned 
down  near  there,  and  they  burned  the  creamery  down. 

Q.     As  a  reprisal?     A.    Yes,  sir,  as  a  reprisal. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Of  course,  even  if  the  creamery  is 
gone,  the  milk  would  still  be  there. 

A.     But  the  milk  cannot  be  got. 

Q.  Of  course,  I  can  understand  why  there  should  be  no  butter 
and  cheese,  but  there  should  be  milk. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  How  was  the  milk  delivered  there? 

A.     It  was  delivered  from  the  creamery  into  the  town. 

Q.     The  creamery  would  be  the  distributing  point? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Addams:  But  the  creamery  takes  the  milk  and 
makes  it  into  butter  and  cheese. 

Mr.  D.  F.  Malone:  But  the  creamery  does  more  than  that  in  Ire- 
land.    It  is  a  milk  distributing  center  as  well. 

Q.  There  is  no  doubt  that  you  and  the  people  in  the  town  could 
not  get  the  milk?     A.   No,  sir,  we  could  not  get  any,  sir. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


407 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  JOSEPH  CADDAN 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  Mr.  Caddan,  what  is  your  full  name? 
John  Joseph  Caddan. 


Nineteen. 

Nineteen  now? 

I  was  nineteen  on  the  seventeenth  of  June. 

Where  were  you  born? 

Adare,  County  Limerick. 

Where  are  you  living  now? 

I  am  living  in  New  York  at  present. 

Where? 

At  63  West  Seventh  Avenue. 

Mr.  Malone:  Are  you  working  in  New  York  now? 

No. 


POLICE  NOW  TRAINED  FOR  WAR  RATHER  THAN 
POLICE  DUTIES 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  your  enlistment  in  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  On  the  third  of  February,  1920. 

Q.  And  where  did  you  go  to  take  your  training? 

A.  In  Phoenix  Park  Depot,  Dublin. 

Q.  And  what  did  your  training  consist  of? 

A.  Bomb  practice,  rifle  practice,  revolver  firing — all  the  latest 
patents  in  revolvers,  automatic  and  regular. 

Q.  Bomb  practice? 

A.  Bomb  practice. 

Q.  Rifle  practice? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  rifle  practice. 

Q.  Were  you  given  any  police  training? 

A.  Yes,  but  the  police  training  was  not  much.  You  were  not 
compelled  to  study  very  much.  I  was  only  three  months  in  the 
depot. 

Q.  Where  were  you  assigned  first? 

A.  To  Galway. 

Q.  What  part  of  Galway? 

A.  Galway  City. 

Q.  When  were  you  assigned  to  Galway  City? 

A.  On  the  twentieth  of  May,  1920. 


408 


THE  SACKING  OF  TUAM 


Q.     What  were  the  conditions  in  Gal  way? 

A.  Galway  City  was  very  quiet  until  the  end  of  August.  The 
first  affair  that  started  things  was  the  sacking  of  Tuam.  Galway 
City  being  the  headquarters  of  the  County  of  Galway,  troops  had 
to  be  sent  from  Galway  to  the  country  outside.  And  then  this  Tuam 
affair — 

Q.     What   affair? 

A.  The  Tuam  affair,  sir.  The  men  had  to  go  out  in  motor  lorries 
for  sacking  the  town.  Two  policemen  had  been  shot  out  there.  1 
was  not  with  them. 

Q.     Why  were  you  not  with  them? 

A.  I  was  on  light  duty  at  the  time.  I  had  a  severe  cold,  and 
stayed  in  the  barracks.  But  when  they  came  back,  they  told  all 
about  what  they  had  burned.  They  said  they  burned  public  houses, 
and  burned  the  town  hall,  and  made  a  general  wreck  of  the  place. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  How  large  is  the  town  of  Tuam? 

A.  It  is  a  fairly  large  size  town.  There  is  a  cathedral  there, 
and  the  Archbishop  of  Galway — about  three  thousand  population, 
I  think. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  it  afterwards — the  day  after- 
wards? 

A.     Not  the  next  day,  but  a  few  days  afterwards. 

Q.     Describe  what  you  first  saw  when  you  visited  it  afterwards. 

A.  When  I  entered  Tuam  I  saw  three  frame  buildings — big 
buildings — public  houses,  I  think  they  were — nothing  standing  but 
*the  walls.  The  town  hall, — the  clock  was  broken  out  of  its  place, 
and  the  town  hall  was  wrecked  in  general. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  glass  broken  in  the  shops? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  indeed. 

Q.     About  how  many  houses  were  destroyed? 

A.     About  a  dozen  on  the  whole  street. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  The  main  street? 

A.     The  main  street,  yes.     That  is  what  I  saw  there. 

Q.     Were  any  people  killed  at  this  sacking  of  Tuam? 

A.  No,  but  there  was  a  man  dragged  out  of  bed  and  threatened 
to  be  shot,  and  only  for  the  intervention  of  the  head  constable  in 
Tuam  he  would  have  been  shot. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  The  head  constable  is  a  member  of  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.    .Yes,  he  is  a  member  of  the  R.  I.  C. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Why  did  he  stop  them? 

A.     Well,  he  didn't  want  to  see  the  man  murdered. 


409 

Q.  He  was  still  a  policeman  to  preserve  law  and  order? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  announce  that  the  man  had  done  no  wrong? 

A.  He  did. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Do  you  remember  the  case  of  the  man  Krumm? 

A.  Yes,  Krumm  was  in  Galway. 

TUAM  WRECKED  AS  REPRISAL  FOR  AMBUSH  TEN 
MILES  DISTANT 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Wait  a  moment.  You  say  that  this  was  due 
to  two  policemen  being  shot? 

A.     Yes,  ambushed. 

Q.  Now,  how  long  before  this  night  were  these  policemen  am- 
bushed? 

A.     They  were  ambushed  about  eleven  o'clock  at  night. 

Q.     Eleven  o'clock  the  same  night? 

A.  Yes.  And  at  about  three  o'clock  the  next  morning  the  sack- 
ing began. 

Q.     Now.  where  were  these  men  ambushed? 

A.     About  ten  miles  outside  of  Tnam.     I  could  not  say  definitely. 

Q.  Were  these  men  members  of  the  Roval  Irish  Constabulary  or 
Black-and-Tans? 

A.     Members  of  the  R.  I.  C. 

Q.     Did  you  know  them? 

A.    No. 

Q.     Were  they  connected  with  your  station? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Were  they  in  Tuam? 

A.     Yes,  in  Tuam? 

Q.     Why  were  these  men  murdered,  and  by  whom? 

A.     I  could  not  say. 

Q.     Did  you  learn  since? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Had  they  been  offensive  to  the  inhabitants  of  the  town? 

A.     I  was  not  stationed  in  that  town  and  could  not  say. 

Q.     You  do  not  know? 

A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Except  the  fact  that  there  were  two  killed? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  only  that  there  were  two  killed. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Was  there  a  coroner's  inquest? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  They  had  been  done  away  with  at  that  time? 

A.     Yes,  they  had. 


410 

DRUNKEN  BLACK-AND-TAN  CAUSES  MURDER, 
ARSON  AND  TERROR  IN  GALWAY 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Tell  us  about  this  man  Krumm,  the  Black- 
and-Tan. 

A.  Krumm  was  a  Black-and-Tan.  The  Black-and-Tans  are  some- 
thing like  soldiers.  They  wear  a  soldier's  uniform  with  a  black 
cap  and  belt,  and  that  is  why  they  are  called  Black-and-Tans.  This 
man  Krumm  was  one  of  the  Black-and-Tans.  He  was  a  motor  driver 
stationed  in  Dunmore,  about  ten  miles  outside  of  Galway.  He  was 
in  town   about  two  weeks  getting  his  motor  repaired. 

Q.     About  two  weeks  getting  a  motor  repaired? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  about  two  weeks.  He  took  his  time  to  it.  He  was  a 
generally  reckless  fellow  and  drank  a  lot.  I  know  of  one  case  that 
he  shot  a  sheep  and  brought  him  in  to  the  barracks  to  be  cooked. 

Q.     You  mean  that  when  he  got  drunk  he  ran  amuck? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  very  reckless  then.  This  night  I  saw  him 
with  a  bottle  of  poteen — 

Q.     Mr.  Witness,  tell  us  to  the  best  of  your  ability  what  that  is. 

A.     It  is  what  you  call  mountain  dew. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Irish  whiskey? 

A.  It  is  made  in  the  mountains  out  of  barley,  I  think.  It  is 
pretty  strong  stuff.  Well,  I  saw  him  with  this  bottle  of  poteen,  and 
he  was  passing  it  around,  and  he  said  that  when  that  bottle  was  gone 
he  would  get  another.  About  twelve  o'clock  he  went  up  to  the 
station. 

Q.     Was  he  in  police  clothes? 

A.  No,  he  was  in  civilian  clothes.  He  went  up  to  the  station 
for  one  of  the  papers,  the  Dublin  papers.  They  usually  came  in 
on  the  midnight  train.  I  could  not  say  exactly  what  happened  at 
the  station,  because  I  was  in  bed.1 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know  the  date  of  this? 

A.     It  was  about  September  seventh. 

Q.     He  was  stationed  at  your  barracks? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  staying  there  while  he  was  in  town  getting 
his  motor  repaired.  The  next  thing  I  knew  one  of  the  constables 
came  up  and  gave  the  alarm,  and  said  one  of  the  constables  was 
shot.  And  we  all  had  to  get  up  and  dress  and  get  our  carbines. 
There  were  about  fifty  men  in  the  barracks,  and  they  ran  amuck 
then. 


1  Krumm  went  to  the  station,  and  without  provocation  whipped  out  his 
revolver  and  began  firing  madly,  shooting  several  persons  before  he  was 
himself  shot  by  a  bystander.  See  evidence  of  three  witnesses,  pp.  83-84, 
130-131,  161-162. 


411  : 

Q.  Tell  us  what  they  did. 

A.  The  whole  fifty  came  out  in  the  streets. 

Q.  Under  their  officers? 

A.  No  officers;  they  all  came  out  together.     There  was  a  D.  1. 

there,  and  he  came  out  with  them. 

Q.  Who  is  a  D.  I.? 

A.  The  district  inspector,  District  Inspector  Crewe. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Was  he  in  uniform? 

A.  No,  he  was  in  plain  clothes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  there  any  Black-and-Tans  there? 

A.  No,  all  R.  I.  C. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  You  say  he  was  in  civilian  clothes? 

A.  Yes,  he  was. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  they  have  motor  lorries? 

A.  No,  they  were  walking. 

Q.  What  time  of  night  was  this? 

A.  That  was  about  one  o'clock. 

BRODERICKS  ORDERED  TO   REMAIN  IN  BURNING 
HOUSE 

They  went  from  the  barracks  up  to  the  house  of  a  man  named 
Broderick  and  knocked  at  the  door,  and  he  opened  the  door,  and 
they  demanded  his  son.  A  couple  of  them  rushed  in  and  grabbed 
the  candle  he  had  in  his  hand,  and  went  upstairs  to  get  his  son. 
The  son  asked  time  to  dress,  and  they  brought  him  down.  While 
they  were  upstairs,  some  other  men  sprinkled  some  petrol  in  the 
parlor  and  the  hall.  They  marched  the  son  down  in  front  of  them, 
and  Broderick  was  told  to  stand  where  he  was.  The  mother  was 
told  to  stay  in  the  back  room  where  she  was,  and  Broderick,  the 
father,  was  ordered  to  stand  in  the  hall.  Then  they  touched  a  match 
to  the  house  and  it  flashed  up.  The  women  began  to  scream,  and 
they  marched  the  son  down  to  the  railroad  station  to  shoot  him 
where  Krumm  had  been  shot. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Did  they  leave  Broderick  and  his  wife  in  the 
burning  house? 

A.     Well,  they  could  not  get  out  through  the  flames  very  easily. 

Q.     They  had  put  petrol  about  the  house? 

A.     Yes,  they  had. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  they  get  out? 

A.  I  was  just  coming  to  that.  They  took  the  son  up  toward  ihe 
station,  but  he  got  away,  and  they  fired  after  him,  and  I  think 
wounded  him  in  the  leg,  but  I  am  not  sure  of  that.     He  got  away. 


412 

And  then  they  turned  around  and  saw  a  crowd  of  neighbors  trying 
to  put  out  the  flames,  and  they  fired  into  the  crowd.  After  that, 
what  they  did  I  did  not  witness,  for  I  went  back  to  the  barracks, 
but  I  heard  the  next  day — the  men  were  telling  about  it  themselves. 
After  that  they  came  to  a  place  where  there  were  two  young  men 
in  a  house,  and  went  up  and  demanded  them.  I  do  not  know  their 
names. 

Q.  Two  young  men  in  the  Broderick  house? 
A.  No,  in  another  house.  They  brought  these  young  men  down 
to  the  same  place  where  Krumm  was  shot  and  stood  them  up  against 
the  wall  there.  One  of  the  men  was  named  Conway,  I  think.  The 
order  was  given  to  fire,  and  just  as  the  order  was  given,  Conway 
fell  forward  on  his  face,  and  he  saved  his  life  miraculously. 

Q.     The  man  fell  on  his  face  just  as  they  fired  and  escaped  death? 
A.     Yes.     Some  of  them  said,  "Let  them  have  another  volley," 
and  the  leader  said,  "No,  we  have  wasted  enough  ammunition  on 
them." 

Q.  To  come  back  to  this  Broderick  case.  Was  the  son  a  member 
of  the  Irish  Republican  Army,  or  was  Broderick  or  his  son  impli- 
cated in  the  killing  of  that  man  Krumm? 

A.  No,  I  do  not  think  so.  They  probably  knew  nothing  about 
him,  for  he  was  a  new  man  in  the  town — he  was  just  in  there 
temporarily. 

INVESTIGATION  AFTER  TRAGIC   REPRISALS 

Q.  Did  your  police  force  make  any  investigation  of  the  killing 
of  this  man  Krumm? 

A.     They  did,  afterwards. 

Q.  But  not  before  the  killing  of  this  man  and  the  firing  of 
Broderick's  house? 

A.     No,  none  whatever. 

Q.  What  happened  after  this  man  Krumm  left  the  barracks? 
You  said  he  had  been  drinking  before  he  left. 

A.  Yes.  I  heard  afterwards  that  he  left  the  barracks  and  stopped 
for  another  drink  before  he  went  up  to  the  station.  He  got  up  to 
the  station  platform  and  while  waiting  for  a  paper  fired  on  the 
crowd,  killing  a  man  and  wounding  another. 

Senator  Walsh:  Yes,  we  have  heard  of  that  incident  from  other 
witnesses, 


413 

COMMANDING  OFFICER  OF  POLICE  COMMITTING 
REPRISALS  PROMOTED 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Was  District  Inspector  Crewe  promoted  after 
this? 

A.  Yes.  he  was  promoted  about  a  week  after  this. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You   were  an   eye  witness  to  this? 

A.  Yes.  I  was  an  eye  witness  to  the  setting  fire  of  Broderick's 

house  and  the  firing  into  the  crowd. 

Q.  Did  you  participate  in  any  of  it? 

A.  No.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Was  there  any  officer  to  lead  the  military  in  all  this? 

A.  No,  there  was  not. 

Q.  It  was  just  mob  action? 

A.  It  was  just  mob  action. 

THE  MURDER  OF  QUIRK 

Afterwards  they  came  down  to  this  man's  house — Quirk  I  believe 
was  his  name — and  they  went  in  and  told  him  to  come  out  of  bed, 
and  did  not  give  him  time  to  dress,  and  dragged  him  out  and 
brought  him  clown  to  the  quays. 

Q.     What  are  the  quays? 

A.  The  quays,  the  Galway  quays.  Galway  is  a  seaside  place, 
and  the  quays  run  down  to  the  water.  They  took  this  man  down  and 
they  stood  him  up  against  a  lamp  post  and  put  twenty-seven  shots 
into  him. 

Q.     Who  was  this  man  Quirk? 

A.      I  believe  he  was  a  Sinn  Feiner. 

Q.  He  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  shooting  of  that  Black-and- 
Tan  at  the  station? 

A.      Oh.  no.  of  course  not.     He  was  home  in  bed. 

MEN  WHO  KNOW  HOW  TO  KILL  REINFORCE 
CONSTABULARY 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Now,  I  believe  there  was  a  general,  a  British 
general,  who  came  down  there. 

A.  Yes,  the  next  day  there  was  a  British  general  came  down  and 
spoke  to  us  in  the  day  room. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Why  do  you  think  he  was  a  general? 

A.  Because  he  was  so  well  guarded.  He  had  two  motor  lorries 
of  soldiers  there  to  guard  him.  He  had  two  other  officers  with  him. 
The  county  inspector  was  there  and  two  district  inspectors,  and  all 


414 

the  men  in  the  barracks  were  there.  And  he  started  to  talk  about 
this  business.  He  said,  "This  country  is  ruled  by  gunmen,  and  they 
must  be  put  down."  He  talked  about  giving  home  rule  to  Ireland, 
and  he  said  home  rule  could  not  be  given  until  all  of  these  gunmen 
were  put  down,  and  he  called  on  the  R.  I.  C.  to  put  them  down. 
He  asked  them  what  they  required  in  the  barracks,  and  that  what- 
ever they  wanted  he  would  give  them,  and  that  they  were  also  going 
to  get  a  raise  in  pay.  And  they  said  they  needed  machine  guns,  and 
he  said  that  they  would  get  them,  and  also  tanks  and  more  men — 
men  who  had  been  in  the  army  during  the  war  and  who  knew  how 
to  shoot  to  kill;  and  he  said  they  would  be  the  right  men  in  the 
right  place. 

Q.     Who  spoke  for  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  There  was  a  sergeant,  I  think,  who  did  most  of  the  talking. 
But  the  men  all  spoke  up  and  said  they  needed  this  and  that. 

Q.     They  needed  additional  protection? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  they  get  it? 

A.  Yes,  there  was  about  two  hundred  Black-and-Tans  sent  down 
to  that  barracks.  They  got  more  money  than  we  did,  but  he  prom- 
ised us  that  we  would  get  a  rise  in  pay. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  How  much? 

A.     Seven  shillings  a  day. 

Q.     In  addition? 

A.     Yes,  in  addition. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  In  addition  to  what  they  were  getting? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  would  be  forty-nine  shillings  a  week  more — 
about  two  pound  ten. 

LOW  CHARACTER  OF  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  What  was  the  general  character  of  the  Black- 
and-Tans? 

A.  Well,  they  were  generally  very  careless  fellows,  and  did  not 
give  a  hang  about  what  they  did.  They  were  mostly  over  there  to 
enjoy  themselves. 

Q.     The  Commissioner:  Were  they  mostly  young  men? 

A.     They  were  most  all  young  men. 

Q.     What  was  their  general  character? 

A.  Some  of  them  were  got  up  for  robbery  at  the  depot — at 
Phoenix  Park.  And  some  of  them  were  sent  to  the  lunatic  asylum. 
I  believe  some  of  them  were  ex-convicts. 


415 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  do  you  know  that, — from  what  they 
said  about  each  other? 

A.  Yes,  what  they  said  between  themselves.  They  had  sev- 
eral conflicts  in  the  Depot  between  the  Black-and-Tans  and  the 
Irish  troops  that  were  there,  but  it  did  not  come  out. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  The  Constabulary  did  not  have  very 
much  respect  for  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     No,  0  no. 

Q.     Did  they  fraternize  with  them? 

A.     They  had  a  couple  of  fights  there. 

Q.     But  did  they  go  out  together  and  associate  together? 

A.  0  no,  they  did  not  associate  together.  They  were  not 
friendly  by  any  means.  Only,  of  course,  they  had  to  go  together 
on  duty. 

AGE  OF  CONSTABLES  AND  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  old  must  you  be  before  you 
can  become  a  member  of  the  Royal   Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     At  least  eighteen. 

Q.     Eighteen  ? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Were  many  of  your  men  as  young  as  that? 

A.  No,  I  don't  believe  they  were.  If  your  father  had  served 
on  the  force  you  could  join  at  eighteen.  If  he  did  not,  nineteen 
is  the  limit. 

Q.      How  old  were  most  of  the  men  on  the  force? 

A.  They  varied  greatly.  Twenty-five  is  about  the  average,  I 
think. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    How  old  are  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  Oh,  various  ages.  Some  of  the  Black-and-Tans  were  up  to 
forty. 

Q.  How  many  Black-and-Tans  were  in  the  barracks  before 
you  resigned? 

A.  There  was  only  one,  Krumm,  and  he  was  only  there  for 
two  weeks. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:   But  you  say  they  were  promised? 

A.     Yes,  but  they  came  afterwards. 

Q.  So  that  you  have  no  knowledge  of  them  while  you  were  in 
that  barracks? 

A.  No,  sir.  But  while  I  was  there  they  stocked  up  the  can- 
teen in  the  barracks  for  their  coming:. 


416 

GOVERNMENT  BAR  IN  BARRACKS  KEEPS  MEN 
SODDEN 

Q.     Was  there  a  canteen  in  your  barracks'.''     A.    Yes. 

Q.     When  you  were  on  the  force? 

A.     Yes,  when  I  was  on  the  force. 

Q.  Did  they  always  have  that  in  the  Irish  Constabulary  bar- 
racks?     A.    Oh,  no. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Was  that  one  of  the  new  munitions  of  war? 

A.     Yes.  it  was  that. 

Q.  When  did  they  open  up  canteens  in  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary barracks? 

A.     About  a  year  ago. 

Q.  So  for  about  a  year  they  have  served  liquor  in  the  bar- 
racks of  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  kind  of  liquor? 

A.     Lots  of  liquors.     Bass'  ale,   Guinness'   stout,   and  lots  more. 

Q.  Were  there  any  restrictions  on  the  amount  of  it  an  officer 
could   get? 

A.  No,  no  restrictions.  They  were  up  there,  some  of  them, 
most  of  the  night  drinking. 

Q.      Did  they  drink  before  going  on  duty?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     To  what  extent  does  that  exist  throughout   Ireland? 

A.     I  couldn't  say,  sir,  but  it  was  common  where  I  was. 

Q.     Who  runs  this  canteen? 

A.     It  is  run  by  the  R.  I.  C. 

Q.     By  the  permission  of  the  Government? 

A.     Yes,  by  the  permission  of  the  Government. 

Q.     And  I  suppose  there  is  some  clerk  in  charge? 

A.  There  is  a  constable  in  charge.  He  is  sitting  there  at  all 
times. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  limit  to  what  you  can  buy  in  quantity  or 
quality? 

A.  No  limit, — no  limit  at  all.  Now,  the  next  night  after  Krumm 
was  shot,  curfew  was  enforced  in  Galway. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Very  good,  but  this  is  very  important. 
You  were  there  in  that  barracks  how  long? 

A.     About  three  months. 

Q.     You  say  there  were  fifty  men  there? 


417 

A.     Yes.   fifty  men. 

Q.     How  many  of  them  were  drinking  men? 

A.     0.  the  whole  lot  of  ihem  except  myself. 

Q.  It  was  a  fine  atmosphere  for  a  nineteen-year-old  hoy  to  go 
into. 

A.     Yes,  charming. 

Q.  And  all  these  men  were  constantly  in  touch  with  a  saloon 
in   the  barracks? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Senator,  would  you  ask  the  witness  if  they 
sold  what  is  known  as  hard  liquor  in   the  barracks? 

A.  The  Witness:  Hard  liquor?  They  sold  all  kinds  of  liquor 
that  are  sold  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Is  there  anything  else  besides  liquor  served? 

A.     0  yes.  there  is  bread  and  crackers  and  things  like  that  also. 

Q.  Now.  to  just  what  extent  and  how  continuously  were  these 
men  under  the  influence  of  liquor? 

A.  Well,  during  their  idle  time.  Some  of  them  had  only  four 
hours"  duty  during  the  day.  The  rest  of  the  time  they  usually  had 
liquor  in  them. 

Q.  So  that  their  life  consisted  of  doing  their  duty  on  the 
streets  of  the  city  and  spending  their  spare  time  in  the  liquor 
store  in  the  barracks  and  in  bed? 

A.     Yes,  and  in  bed. 

RESIGNED  CONSTABLE  FLOGGED  BY  BLACK-AND- 
TANS 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  After  the  Tuam  affair,  do  you  remember  the 
affair  of  the  constable  who  resigned? 

A.  Well,  yes,  that  was  out  in  Tuam.  I  was  not  a  witness  to  it. 
This  man,  his  name  was  Roddy,  had  resigned  in  Tuam  after  the 
town  was  wrecked,  and  took  a  position  with  the  city  council.  A 
short  time  after  the  Black-and-Tans  went  to  his  home  and  got  him 
and  brought  him  out  to  the  lime  pits  near  the  town,  and  they 
flogged  him.  And  then  some  time  after  they  did  that,  they  flogged 
him  again,  and  told  him  to  clear  out  of  the  town  with  his  wife  and 
family,  which  he  had  to  do. 

Q.      You  say  he  got  a  job  on  the  city  council? 

A.  Yes,  after  he  resigned,  he  got  a  job  on  the  city  council, — 
that  is,  the  Sinn  Fein  county  council. 


418 
REASON  FOR  RESIGNING  FROM  CONSTABULARY 


Q 


What  were  the  reasons  for  his  resigning  from  the  R.  I.  C. 


A.  Probably  about  the  same  as  mine. 

Q.  What  were  your  reasons  for  resigning? 

A.  Well,  I  couldn't  stop  in  such  surroundings. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:   What  was  that? 

A.  I   didn't  fancy  the  way  they  were  treating   the  people. 

Q.  The  work  was  too  dirty  for  you? 

A.  0,  yes.  The  things  they  used  to  be  doing,  I  could  take  no 
part  in  them. 

DRINKS  AND  EXTRA  PAY  FOR  MEN  ON  RAIDS 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  said  something  about  this  raid  on 
Galway.     The  curfew  was  applied? 

A.  Yes,  the  night  after  the  raid  the  curfew  was  applied  from 
nine  o'clock  to  three  in  the  morning. 

Q.     Now,  just  what  does  that  mean? 

A.  Nobody  but  the  military  and  police  could  be  out  from 
9  P.  M.  to  3  A.  M.  This  night  they  went  out.  There  was  an 
armored  car  and  a  military  officer  and  two  police  from  the  bar- 
racks; and  they  went  out  firing  shots,  and  what  they  call  "clear- 
ing the  streets." 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    That  was  the  first  night  of  the  curfew  law? 

A.  The  first  night  of  the  curfew  law.  And  when  they  came 
in  they  were  all  treated  to  a  drink  by  the  district  inspector.  And 
the  next  night  there  was  the  same  thing, — they  went  out  firing 
into  the  streets  again. 

Q.     This  was  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.     No,  the  R.  I.  C. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  For  the  record,  how  large  is  the  city  of 
Galway? 

A.  It's  a  fairly  large  city,  with  a  population  of  about  ten 
thousand,  I  think. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  are  the  Black-and-Tans, — what  na- 
tionality? 

A.     They  are  English. 

Q.     How  about  the  officers? 

A.  They  are  mostly  ex-officers  of  the  English  army.  They 
come  over  and  get  the  position  of  sergeant  as  Black-and-Tans. 
They  get  more  money  than  the  R.  I.  C.  get.  They  get  something 
like  one  pound  seven  a  day  now. 

Q.     Did  they  get  extra  money  when  they  went  on  a  raid? 


419 

A.  They  get  extra  money  when  they  are  called  out  of  the 
barracks. 

Q.  In  addition  to  their  per  diem,  they  get  extra  money  when 
they  go  out  of  the  barracks  on  raids? 

A.     Yes,  when  they  go  out  on  raids. 

Q.     Mr.    Malone:     That   is    overtime? 

A.     Yes,   overtime. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  did  it  happen  that  there  was  only 
that  one  Black-and-Tan  in  the  barracks? 

A.  Well,  he  was  only  in  for  two  weeks  to  get  his  motor  re- 
paired in  Galway. 

Q.     What  town  were  you  born  in? 

A.     At  Adare,  County  Limerick. 

Q.     How  large  a  town? 

A.     I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.     Did  you  spend  your  childhood  there? 

A.     Oh,  no.     I  was  only  about  three  months  there. 

Q.  Where  did  you  spend  your  time  up  to  the  time  of  joining 
the  Constabulary? 

A.     I  lived  in  Cork  City,  and  went  to  school  in  Waterford  City. 

Q.     Did   you   travel    around    Ireland   much? 

A.     Yes,  my  father  used  to  be  transferred  around. 

Q.     And  what  was  his  position? 

A.     He   was  sergeant. 

Q.     In  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.     In  the  R.  I.  C. 

GENERAL    CONDITIONS    IN   IRELAND 

Q.  What  was  the  general  condition  of  Ireland  as  you  went 
around  from  town  to  town? 

A.  The  general    condition   in   Cork   was   curfew   at   ten   o'clock, 

when  you  had  to  be  in. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:     But  he  means  prior  to   this  trouble. 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  much  about  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Mr.  Witness,  will  you  tell  us  where  you  were 

when  you  joined  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  I  joined  in  London. 

Q.  What  were   you   doing   then? 

A.  I  had  gone  to  Liverpool   and  Manchester  and  London. 

Q.  What  were  you   doing? 

A.  Looking  for  work  there. 

Q.  So  you  thought  you  would  join  your  father's  profession? 


420 

A.  Yes,  but  I  never  intended  to  stay  in  it.  Just  joined  to  get 
over  to  Ireland  again. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    When  did  you  leave  Ireland? 

A.     I  left  Ireland  on  November  fifth. 

Q.     And  when  did  you  resign  from  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.     In  September. 

Q.  So  you  were  during  the  month  of  October  and  to  November 
fifth  free? 

A.     Yes,  free. 

Q.     Did  you  spend  that  month  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  observe  conditions  in  Ireland  in  other  places  than 
Galway? 

A.  Yes,  I  was  down  in  Cork  for  the  funeral  of  the  Lord  Mayor, 
Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney. 

Q.     Did  you  remain  there  up  to  November  fifth? 

A.     Yes,  I  remained  there  up  to  November  fifth. 

Q.  Just  what  were  the  conditions  in  Cork  down  to  November 
fifth? 

A.  Curfew  was  enforced,  and  you  must  be  in  by  ten  o'clock. 
Then  the  military  would  come  around  in  motor  lorries  about  five 
minutes  to  ten,  and  anybody  who  is  caught  out  has  not  a  safe 
chance  for  his  life,  because  he  might  be  shot  on  sight. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Do  they  shoot  when  they  come  out? 

A.     Yes,  they  generally  shoot. 

Q.     I  suppose  that  is  notice  that  the  curfew  law  is  on? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:    What  about  the  Black  Thorn  house? 

A.  Oh,  the  Black  Thorn  house  was  not  destroyed  in  my  time 
there.  The  city  hall  was  destroyed,  and  the  Black-  Thorn  house, 
after  my  coming  away. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


421 


TESTIMONY  OF  DANIEL  GALVIN 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:    Your  name  is  Danie]  Galvin? 

A.  Yes,  Daniel   Galvin. 

Q.  And  your  address? 

A.  114  West  102d  Street,  New  York  City. 


orn : 


Q.     Where  were  you  r> 
A.     In   Gerryman,   County   Kerry,   Ireland,   in   December,    1887. 
That  would  be  thirty-three  years  ago  this  month. 

THIRTEEN  YEARS'  SERVICE  IN  CONSTABULARY 

Q.     How  long  ago  did  you  join  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.     I  joined  the  twenty-first  of  October,  1907. 

Q.     When  did  you  resign? 

A.     The  twenty-first  of  July  last,  this  year. 

Q.     You  were  then  in  the  service  about  thirteen  years? 

A.     Yes,  thirteen  years,  lacking  a  month  or  so. 

Q.     Where  did  you  get  your  training? 

A.     In  Dublin,  in  the  Phoenix  Park  training  school  there. 

Q.     When? 

A.     In  1907. 

Q.     What  did  your  training  consist  of  there? 

A.     Three  hours  of  drill,  gymnastics,  school,  and  police  duties. 

Q.  Where  have  you  served  in  Ireland  in  these  nearly  thirteen 
years? 

A.  I  left  the  Phoenix  Training  School  barracks  five  months 
after  I  entered,  and  was  transferred  to  Gort  in  County  Galway. 
I  was  there  about  two  months. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  from  there? 

A.     To  a  station  called  Tubber  in  County  Galway. 

Q.     Where  did  you  go  from  there? 

A.  I  remained  in  Galway  until  I  came  on  to  Tipperary.  1 
spent  five  years  in  Galway.  I  applied  to  get  nearer  home.  I 
applied  for  Cork  East  or  Cork  West,  but  I  was  refused,  because  it 
was  adjoining  my  native  county.  And  they  said  that  if  I  wanted 
to  go  to  Tipperary,  it  would  be  at  my  own  expense.  I  applied  for 
Tipperary,  South  Riding,  and  was  transferred  in  May,  1912. 

Q.     Where  have  you  been  since  then? 

A.     I  have  been  in  a  district  called  Weyl  in  County  Tipperary. 

Q.     Where  else  were  you  stationed? 

A.  I  was  stationed  at  a  place  in  Tipperary  called  Killaloan  that 
is  about  three  miles  outside  of  Clonmel. 

Q.     Were  you  stationed  at  Clogheen? 


422 

A.  Yes,  I  was  at  Clogheen  about  six  months  before  I  resigned. 

Q.  And  at  Ballyporeen  also? 

A.  Yes,  Clogheen  was  my  permanent  station,  but  I  was  sent 
to  Ballyporeen,  Tipperary. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Clogheen  while  Mr.  Crowley  was  there? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  his  testimony? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  all  of  the  testimony  he  gave  is  true? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  true.     I  can  give  you  my  own  version  of  it. 

ABSOLUTE  RELIGIOUS  HARMONY  IN  SOUTH 
IRELAND 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  this:  in  all  the  years  that  you  have 
served  in  the  R.  I.  C.  in  Ireland,  what  do  you  know  of  the  rela 
tions  between  Catholics  and  Protestants? 

A.  As  a  general  rule  in  the  south  of  Ireland  the  Protestants  are 
the  most  prosperous  people  there.  In  many  cases  I  would  rather 
deal  with  the  Protestants  than  with  the  Catholics. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  have  never  heard  of  any  differences 
whatever  between  them? 

A.  I  have  traveled  a  good  deal  all  over  Ireland,  south  and 
west  and  east,  and  in  my  own  native  county,  County  Kerry,  and 
I  have  never  heard  of  any  trouble  between  the  people  on  account 
of  any  religious  differences  whatever  in  those  sections. 

REMARKABLE  ABSENCE  OF  CRIME 

Q.     What  would  you  say  about  Ireland  as  a  peaceful  country? 

A.     It  is  a  very  peaceful  country,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  difficult  experiences  with  the  people  in 
pursuing  your  duties  as  a  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.  No,  sir.  Nobody  ever  made  any  insulting  remark  to  me  in 
all  the  thirteen  years  of  my  service. 

Q.     Were  there  any  serious  crimes? 

A.     No,  sir. 

Q.     Any  minor  offenses? 

A.     Nothing  serious.     Just  petty  larceny  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  many  murders  did  you  come  in  con- 
tact with? 

A.  There  was  just  one  case  in  County  Gal  way  in  the  land 
trouble  there.    That  was  in  1907. 


423 

Q.     Just  one  case  of  murder  in  all  your  experience? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  right,  sir. 

Q.     How  about  felonies  and  serious  offenses? 

A.     No.     Nothing  like  that.     Just  petty  cases. 

Q.     What  do  you  mean  by  petty  offenses? 

A.     Petty   cases   like   drunkenness. 

Q.     How  about  stealing? 

A.     Very,  very  limited  in  the  country. 

Q.     How  about  burglary? 

A.  No,  very  little.  I  have  never  known  of  any  case  of  burglary 
where  I  was  called  upon  to  act. 

Q.     Were  there  any  cases  reported  to  your  precinct? 

A.  0  there  may  be  a  case  of  petty  larceny, — that  is,  a  case  of 
petty  larceny  like  the  stealing  of  tools  or  picks. 

Q.  But  of  the  major  crimes,  there  has  been  only  one  case  come 
to  your  attention  in  thirteen  years? 

A.     Yes,  one  case  in  thirteen  years. 

Q.     And   drunken    brawls, — are   they   frequent? 

A.  Not  in  these  days.  They  used  to  be  in  1910,  1911,  or  1913, 
but  not  nowadays. 

Q.  What  was  there  for  nine  thousand  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary in  Ireland  to  do  if  there  was  no  crime? 

A.  Well,  they  are  distributed  all  over  the  country.  There 
were  not  nearly  so  many  as  that  there  until  the  last  few  years. 
I  remember  only  three  years  ago  when  there  was  only  three  men 
in  the  station  where  I  was  in   County  Tipperary. 

Q.     The  town  of  Tipperary? 

A.     No,  the  County.     I  was  in  a  small  place. 

LITTLE  NEED  OF  A  POLICE  FORCE  TO 
MAINTAIN  ORDER 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  about  the  relations  of  Protestants  and 
Catholics?  Did  they  meet  in  a  friendly  way?  Did  they  visit  one 
another's  houses? 

A.  I  know  of  a  case  where  the  Catholic  priest  and  the  Protestant 
minister  went  out  fishing  together,  and  also  shooting  together. 

Q.     When  you  say  shooting  together,  you  mean  hunting? 

A.     I  mean  fowling. 

Q.     Do  they  intermarry? 

A.     Not  very  much. 

Q.     But  they  were  friendly  with  each  other?     They  were  neigh- 


424 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  One  man's  gun  would  be  out  of  order,  and 
another  man  would  lend  his  gun  to  him. 

Q.     They  traded  at  one  another's  stores,  did  they? 

A.     Yes,  indeed. 

Q.  In  other  words,  prior  to  1918,  there  was  very  little  dis- 
order? 

A.  Yes,  and  after,  and  up  to  the  present  time  there  is  very 
little  need,  as  far  as  the  people  are  concerned,  of  a  police  force. 

POLICE  MILITARIZED   AFTER  REPUBLICAN 
ELECTION  VICTORY 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  Now,  Mr.  Galvin,  tell  me  in  what  way  did 
your  duties  as  a  policeman  change  by  orders  after  the  elections 
of  1918? 

A.  They  were  changed  until  I  was  simply  only  a  soldier  when 
I  left  the  police  force.  I  had  to  carry  arms  and  bombs  and  the 
like.  I  had  to  have  my  rifle  beside  me  at  nights  in  bed.  We  were 
all  behind  barbed  wire,  and  with  thirty  or  forty  bombs  used  some- 
times at  nights  from  the  police  station. 

FAIRS,   MARKETS,  AND  PUBLIC  ASSEMBLIES 
PROHIBITED 

Q.     Where  do  you  date  the  first  disorders  in  your  district? 

A.  I  remember  that  in  July,  1919 — that  was  last  year — the 
County  of  Tipperary  was  proclaimed  a  prohibited  district  by  the 
Lord  Lieutenant.  That  required  an  additional  force  of  police. 
That  was  according  to  English  law  then.  They  transferred  police 
or  R.  I.  C.  from  different  portions  of  Ireland,  even  from  the  west 
of  Ireland,  and  from  the  next  counties,  to  South  Riding.  Fairs 
and  markets  and  public  meetings  and  assemblies  and  so  forth  were 
to  be  prohibited,  although  Clogheen  and  portions  of  the  South 
Riding  were  very  quiet. 

Q.  Did  the  prohibition  of  fairs  and  markets  interfere  with  the 
normal  life  of  the  people? 

A.  0  yes,  very  much,  because  they  had  no  way  of  selling  their 
produce. 


425 


DISRUPTION  OF  LIFE  OF  PEOPLE  PRECEDES 
DISORDERS 

Q.  Was  it  after  the  normal  life  of  the  people  had  been  dis- 
turbed that  the  disorders  began? 

A.  Yes,  it  was  not  until  some  time  in  April,  1919,  that  a  hundred 
of  the  military  arrived  from  Manchester. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  attacks  by  the  people  on  the 
police  up  to  the  time  you  are  stating  now? 

A.     No,  not  at  any  place. 

Q.     What  is  your  business  now? 

A.     I  am  a  watchman  in  New  York  City. 

REASON  FOR  RESIGNING  FROM  CONSTABULARY 

Q.     Why  did  you  resign  from  the  R.  I.  C? 

A.  Well,  simply  because  I  did  not  like  the  system  that  they 
have  at  the  present  time.  When  I  first  joined,  it  was  different 
then.  I  did  not  have  any  arms  then.  Of  course,  they  had  arms 
then,  but  at  the  same  time  I  never  took  them  out  with  me  on  duty, 
the  .same  as  I  had  to  do  the  last  seven  or  eight  months.  We  had 
the  arms,  but  they  were  simply  for  show  purposes. 

Q.  Mr.  Malone:  In  other  words,  when  the  R.  I.  C.  was  changed 
from  a  police  force  into  a  military  force,  that  was  your  reason 
for  leaving? 

A.     That  was   sufficient. 

Q.     Were  you  not  entitled  to   a  pension? 

A.  0  yes,  I  certainly  would  have  been  entitled  to  a  pension 
in  two  years'  more,  in  fifteen  years,  if  I  got  out  on  a  medical 
certificate.  Or  at  twenty-five  years  I  would  have  been  entitled  to 
one-half  of  my  pay,  and  two-thirds  on  thirty  years'  service. 

ARMED    INVASION   OF   CHURCH    SERVICES   TO 
INCITE  PEOPLE 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  were  in  the  station  with  the  young  man 
who  was  here  who  testified  about  the  order  to  go  to  church  on 
Sundays? 

A.     Yes,   I   remember   that   order. 

Q.     Did  you  ever  go  to  church   in   a  squad  before? 

A.     Yes,  I  went  once. 

Q.  Now,  was  that  order  compelling  men  to  go  armed  to  church 
for  the   purpose   of   showing   military   authority    in   the   church,   or 


426 

was  it  simply  a  regulation  in  regard  to  each  individual's  con- 
duct when  he  went  to  church? 

A.  My  belief  was  that  the  order  was  simply  to  incite  the 
people. 

Q.     Where  did  you  stand  when  you  went  to  church? 

A.     You  were  supposed  to  go  up  to  the  altar  aisle. 

Q.     And  two  men  went  up  with  rifles? 

A.     Two  men  went  up  with  rifles,  and  two  with  carbines. 

Q.     Where  did  the  other  two  men  stand? 

A.     The  other  two  men  stood  near  the  door. 

Q.     Did  you  stand  during  the  entire  service? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  march  behind  the  people  in  coming  out  of  the 
church? 

A.     I  marched  behind  about  fifteen  yards. 

Q!  After  the  people  went  out,  did  you  walk  down  the  center 
aisle  of  the  church? 

A.     Yes,  the  people  went  out  first. 

Q.     Was  that  a  general  order? 

A.  It  was  a  general  order  for  all  Ireland,  because  it  came 
from  Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  So  that  there  was  at  that  time  and  is  now  as  far  as  you  know 
military  control  over  the  church  during  church  service? 

A.     Yes,  sir,  that  was  the  general  impression  of  the  people  there. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Now,  if  a  man  was  not  going  to 
church  that  morning,  did  they  confine  some  in  the  barracks? 

A.     Yes,  half  of  the  party  were  confined. 

Q.  So  that  every  time  there  was  a  church  service  some  would 
be  there? 

A.     Yes,  some  would  remain  in  the  barracks. 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  About  Richards,  the  Black-and-Tan. 

Senator  Walsh:  Who  was  that? 

A.     Richards,  the  Black-and-Tan. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  would  also  like  to  ask  him  about  the  can- 
teen.    Did  you  have  any  canteen  in  the  barracks? 

A.  There  was  in  the  larger  cities  like  Cork  and  Limerick  and 
Galway.     Ours  was  a  small  barrack. 

Q.  You  had  only  a  few  men  in  your  barracks,  so  it  would  not 
pay,  I  suppose? 

A.     Yes,  sir.     It  was  an  old  custom  in  the  large  cities. 


427 

BLACK-AND-TANS  LICENSED  TO  SHOOT  ANY  SINN 
FEINER  WITHOUT  DISCIPLINE 

Q.     Mr.  Malone:  About  the  Richards  incident. 

A.  Well,  Crowley  and  a  man  named  Grady  and  myself,  we  were 
sent  out  on  patrol  duty  with  these  two  Black-and-Tans.  We  had 
revolvers  and  Gillette  and  Richards  had  carbines.  About  a  mile 
outside  of  Clogheen  there  was  a  man  named  Walsh,  who  was  sup- 
posed to  be  in  sympathy  with  the  Republican  movement,  and 
Richards  demanded  that  we  show  him  where  Walsh  lived.  We 
wanted  to  know  what  he  wanted  with  Walsh,  and  he  said  he  was 
going  to  shoot  him.  And  we  refused  to  show  him  where  Walsh 
lived.  And  he  turned  around  to  us  and  demanded  that  we  do  our 
duty  and  show  him  the  place.  And  we  reminded  him  that  he  was 
not  in  the  army  now;  he  was  on  the  police  force.  And  he  said  that 
when  he  left  the  training  depot  he  was  told  that  he  would  not  be 
subjected  to  any  discipline  whatever  if  he  shot  any  Sinn  Feiners. 
He  went  about  ten  yards  down  the  road  and  turned  and  said  he 
would  shoot  me  if  I  didn't  show  him  where  Walsh  lived.  Then  we 
turned  back  to  the  barracks.  We  had  not  gone  far  when  Richards 
fired  at  us.  When  I  got  back  to  the  barracks  with  the  men,  I  re- 
ported him  to  the  sergeant,  and  he  said  he  had  committed  a  felony 
for  threatening  the  lives  of  three  men.  He  was  confined  to  barracks 
for  a  few  days,  and  then  sent  back  to  England,  and  then  he  came 
back  to  the  R.  I.  C.'s  again  under  an  assumed  name. 

LOW  CHARACTER  OF  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  the  character  of  the  Black-and-Tans 
in  Ireland  today? 

A.  We  did  not  mix  with  them.  We  had  as  little  to  do  with  them 
as  we  could.  To  a  great  extent  the  people  know  what  kind  of  people 
they  are. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Chairman  Howe:  The  next  hearings  are  set  for  next  Wednesday, 
in  case  the  witnesses  can  be  secured  by  that  time.  If  not,  the  next 
hearings  will  be  held  here  on  Thursday.  There  are  some  witnesses 
who  are  coming  from  England  and  are  now  on  the  Baltic,  and  will 
be  here  by  then.  We  will  meet  here,  unless  there  is  some  contrary 
notice  in  the  press,  next  Wednesday  morning  at  ten  o'clock. 

(Thereupon,  at  4:10  p.  m.,  the  Commission  adjourned.) 


THIRD  HEARINGS  ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 
Before  the 

AMERICAN  COMMISSION  OF  INQUIRY   ON 
CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Session  One 


JANE  ADDAMS  1 

James  H.  Maurer 

Oliver  P.  Newman 

George  W.  Norris 

Norman  Thomas  \  COMMISSIONERS 

David  I.  Walsh 

L.  HOLLINGSWORTH  WOOD 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

Acting  Chairman 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  La  Fayette,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C,  Wednesday,  December  15,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:05  a.  m. 
Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  please  come  to  order. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  RUTH  RUSSELL 

Q.  Miss  Russell,  will  you  give  the  Commission  your  full  name 
and  address? 

A.     Ruth  Russell,  Chicago,  Illinois. 

Q.     And  you  are  employed  by  the  Chicago  Daily  News? 

A.  I  was  employed  by  the  Chicago  Daily  News  when  I  went 
to  Ireland  the  last  time. 

Q.     When  were  you  in  Ireland? 

A.  I  was  in  Ireland  from  March  16,  1919,  to  the  end  of  June, 
1919. 

PURPOSE   AND    EXTENT   OF   INVESTIGATIONS   IN 
IRELAND 

Q.     And  what  was  your  purpose  in  going  to  Ireland? 
A.     I    was    sent   to    Ireland    as    foreign    correspondent    studying 
special  economic,  social,  and  political  conditions. 

428 


429 

Q.     In  Ireland  or  in  other  countries? 

A.     I  was  sent  especially  for  Ireland. 

Q.     Especially  for  Ireland?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     And  what  was  the  general  nature  of  your  assignment? 

A.     General  reporter. 

Q.  You  were  to  make  a  thorough  and  unbiased  study  of  the 
social  and  economic  conditions  of  Ireland?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  And  report  these  in  special  articles  for  the  Chicago  Daily 
News?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly  (of  counsel)  :  Will  you  tell  the  Commis- 
sion what  parts  of  Ireland,  particularly  what  important  sections, 
vou  visited?     A.    I  visited  Dublin.  Cork — 

Q.     Suppose  you  give  them  in  order. 

A.  I  went  first  to  Dublin,  and  then  to  Cork,  and  then  to  Lim- 
erick, Belfast,  and  to  Dungloe  in  Donegal. 

Q.  So  that  you  were  in  all  four  of  the  provinces  of  Ireland  and 
in  all  the  important  industrial  centers?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     Did  you  also  see  typical  parts  of  the  country  districts? 

A.  Yes.  I  was  especially  familiar  with  the  country  districts  in 
Donegal,  in  the  northwest  of  Ireland. 

WAGES  AS  LOW  AS  A  DOLLAR  A  WEEK 

Q.  What  was  the  method  that  you  used  in  your  investigations 
in  Ireland? 

A.  I  used  both  interviews  and  personal  experiences.  In  order 
to  get  the  social  conditions  in  Dublin.  I  lived  in  the  Dublin  slums 
for  a  week  as  a  working  girl,  and  tried  to  find  work  there. 

Q.     Were  you  able  to  secure  work  in  Dublin? 

A.  There  was  no  factory  work  to  be  had  in  Dublin  at  all,  or 
indeed  in  any  part  of  Ireland,  even  in  Belfast.  But  there  was 
domestic  work  to  be  had. 

Q.  What  were  the  prevailing  wages  in  factories  at  that  time  for 
the  people  who  were  employed? 

A.  The  best  woman's  wage  in  Dublin  at  that  time  was  paid  at  a 
large  basket  factory  in  Dublin.  That  ran  from  $4.50  to  $10  a 
week.  These  were  especially  good  wages.  There  was  a  toy  factory 
in  Dublin  which  paid  as  low  as  one  dollar  a  week  to  girls.  This 
was  astonishingly  low.  in  view  of  the  fact  that  it  costs  a  girl  at 
least  five  dollars  a  week  to  live  by  herself  in  Dublin, 


430 

Q.  So  that  only  girls  who  could  afford  to  work  for  those  wages, 
or  who  were  living  at  home  and  were  supported  by  their  parents 
and  were  virtually  undercutting  the  women  workers  who  had  to 
support  themselves,  could  live  on  that  wage? 

A.     Yes,  yes. 

AN  UNSUCCESSFUL  RAID 

Q.  Were  you  present  in  Dublin  at  the  time  of  the  raid  on  Dublin 
Castle? 

A.  I  was  present  there  at  the  time  of  the  raid  on  the  Mansion 
House. 

Q.  On  the  Mansion  House,  of  course.  Will  you  tell  what  you 
saw  at  that  time? 

A.  At  the  time  I  was  at  Madam  Gomme  MacBride's  house,  on 
Stephens  Green.  Her  young  son,  who  has  since  been  arrested,  I 
believe,  came  rushing  over  to  the  house  and  told  us  that  the  Man- 
sion House  was  being  raided;  that  the  police  were  searching  for 
Michael  Collins  and  Robert  Barton.  Miss  Barton,  Robert  Barton's 
sister,  was  in  the  house  at  the  time.  We  dashed  across  Stephens 
Green,  and  we  found  a  double  line  of  police  and  constables  drawn 
up  across  Dawson  Street,  the  entrance  to  the  Mansion  House  Road. 
The  soldiers  were  there  with  their  fixed  bayonets.  Just  beyond  the  line 
there  was  a  whippet  tank,  and  beyond  that  there  were  motor  lorries 
for  the  soldiers  that  were  taking  part  in  it.  The  American  delegates 
were  to  have  a  reception  at  the  Mansion  House  that  evening.  The 
car  with  Frank  Walsh  and  President  de  Valera  approached  the  line 
of  the  military.  The  military  lowered  their  bayonets.  Frank  Walsh 
got  out  of  the  car  and  approached  the  bayonet  line,  and  went  up 
to  Lieutenant-Colonel  Johnson,  of  the  Dublin  military  police,  and 
he  inquired,  "What's  the  row?"  The  casualness  of  the  question 
must  have  disarmed  the  Lieutenant-Colonel,  because  he  started  to 
laugh,  and  after  a  long  conference  finally  permitted  the  American 
car  to  go  through.  After  the  order  was  given,  the  lorries  containing 
the  soldiers  were  taken  out  through  the  crowd,  amid  the  booing  of 
the  people,  and  the  car  flying  the  American  and  Sinn  Fein  flags 
entered  through  the  passage,  and  the  reception  was  held  at  the 
Mansion  House. 

Q.  Before  this  the  Mansion  House  had  been  raided  by  the 
troops? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  was  the  purpose  of  that  raid,  as  you  were  told? 

A.     The  purpose  was  to  find  Michael  Collins,  minister  of  finance 


431 

of  the  Irish  Republic,  and  Robert  Barton,  member  of  the  Irish 
Parliament. 

Q.  You  were  acquainted  with  Robert  Barton's  sister,  were  you 
not?     You  had  met  her? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  you  meet  Robert  Barton  also? 

A.     Yes.  I  met  him. 

Q.     Is  he  a  Protestant? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  a  Protestant. 

Q.     Was  he  a  British  officer? 

A.     He  was  a  British  officer. 

Q.     And  reputed  to  be  a  very  wealthy  man? 

A.     Yes,  he  has  a  beautiful  home  at  Glengariff. 

Q.  And  he  was  one  of  the  members  of  the  Sinn  Fein  Parliament 
elected  in  the  1918  elections? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  anything  of  the  circumstances  of  the  raid? 
Was  there  a  raid  made  on  the  private  apartments  of  the  Lord 
Mayor? 

A.  I  heard  that  the  raid  was  rather  thoroughly  conducted  in  the 
Lord  Mayor's  house.  Soldiers  even  penetrated  to  the  bedroom  of 
the  wife  of  the  Lord  Mayor  and  searched  there.  But  they  were  not 
successful  in  finding  either  Michael  Collins  or  Robert  Barton.  How- 
ever, both  of  these  turned  up  at  the  reception  later. 

Q.  Had  there  been  any  acts  on  the  part  of  the  Irish  Republic 
as  the  moving  cause  of  this  raid?  Had  any  policeman  been  shot 
or  any  soldier  been  shot? 

A.  '  No. 

Q.  They  were  simply  out  to  arrest  these  two  leaders  of  the 
Republican  government? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Were  they  also  leaders  of  the  Republican  army? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  But  Michael  Collins  at  that  time  was  not  a  leader  of  ihe 
army.     He  was  minister  of  finance,  was  he  not? 

A.  He  was  minister  of  finance  and  captain  in  the  Volunteer 
army. 

Q.     Do  you  know  whether  Robert  Barton  has  since  been  arrested? 

A.  Yes,  I  believe  that  he  has,  and  was  sentenced  to  two  or  three 
years'  imprisonment.     I  do  not  know  as  to  that. 


432 

CALIBER  OF  IRISH  REPUBLICAN  LEADERS 

Q.  You  met  a  number  of  the  leaders  of  the  Republican  move- 
ment in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  I  met  almost  all  of  them. 

Q.     What  type  of  men  were  they? 

A.  They  were  extremely  cool-headed  and  intelligent.  The  crowd 
of  Sinn  Fein  leaders  that  I  met  at  George  Russell's — ^E.'s — house 
in  Dublin  were,  I  think,  the  most  brilliant  crowd  of  people  that  I 
have  met  in  my  life,  and  as  a  newspaper  person  I  have  mixed  in 
at  a  good  many  gatherings. 

NO  RELIGIOUS  BASIS  FOR  PRESENT  TROUBLE 

Q.     Were  they  all  Catholics? 

A.  No.  M — George  Russell — is  an  Ulster  man,  and  Arthur 
Griffith  is  a  Protestant,  and  a  good  many  others  were  Protestants. 

Q.  Did  you  form  any  conclusions  through  your  talking  and 
living  among  the  people  as  to  the  religious  phase  of  conditions  in 
Ireland?     Is  there  a  religious  basis  for  the  present  trouble? 

A.  No,  I  think  that  the  religious  feeling  has  been  artificially 
worked  up  in  Ulster.  But  I  think  that  on  account  of  the  unifying 
influence  of  the  labor  people  in  Ulster  that  this  religious  feeling 
is  rapidly  dying  down. 

Q.     What  did  you  find  as  to  the  attitude  of  the  whole  people? 

Chairman  Howe:  I  wonder  if  I  could  develop  this  religious  ques- 
tion a  little  further.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  in  your 
opinion  the  religious  feeling  had  been  artificially  created? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  does  not  exist  among  the  common  people  generally? 

A.  I  do  not  say  that  it  doesn't  exist  in  Ulster,  but  that  it  is 
rapidly  dying  down. 

Q.     Even  in  Ulster? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  about  the  rest  of  the  country? 

A.  Well,  I  think  with  George  Russell  that  there  is  not  a  feeling 
of  religious  intolerance  in  the  south  of  Ireland  at  all. 

Q.     Against  Protestants? 

A.     No. 

Q.     As  far  as  you  saw,  they  live  peacefully  with  one  another? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     There  are  no  rows  among  them? 

A.     No. 


too 

Q.      Do  they  visit  with  one  another  and  trade  with  one  another? 

A.     Yes.  certainly. 

Q.  Now,  compare  it  with  this  country.  Is  there  any  more  re- 
ligious intolerance  than  there  is  in  this  country? 

A.  I  think  not.  I  think  that  in  some  of  the  southern  towns  of 
my  own  state  there  is  more  religious  intolerance  than  there  is  in 
Ireland. 

Q.      Does  it  enter  into  the  elections? 

A.     No,  not  as  far  as  I  know. 

Q.     Does  it  enter  into  the  school   question? 

A.  Yes,  it  does  in  Ulster.  In  Belfast  there  is  a  question  con- 
cerning the  support  of  the  schools;  and  it  is  rather  difficult  to  go 
into  the  whole  school  topic  to  explain  it,  although  I  can  if  you 
want  me  to.  But  it  is  a  matter  of  support.  The  Protestants  feel 
that  there  is  not  a  sufficient  amount  of  money  to  be  had  for  their 
schools.  There  are  fifteen  thousand  children  in  Belfast  without 
school  accommodations.  The  arrangement  for  the  money  for  the 
schools  is  that  some  person  so  disposed  in  Ireland  will  build  a 
school  and  the  Parliament  grant  will  support  it.  In  Belfast  they 
want  a  different  system.  But  the  Catholics  feel  that  their  children 
have  been  fairly  well  cared  for  under  the  present  system,  and  they 
do  not  want  a  change. 

Q.  There  have  been  a  number  of  people  over  in  this  country 
who  have  been  speaking  across  the  country  on  the  Irish  question, 
and  have  been  insisting  that  there  can  be  no  home  rule  in  Ireland 
or  self-determination  in  Ireland  because  underlying  everything  else 
is  the  danger  of  Catholic  domination.  You  know  what  their  argu- 
ment probably  is.  It  has  a  good  deal  of  currency.  What  about  that 
statement?     You  would  say  that  it  is  artificially  created? 

A.  Yes.  I  spoke  to  Francis  Joseph  Bigger,  who  is  a  prominent 
lawyer  in  Belfast,  on  that  matter.  Mr.  Bigger  is  a  Protestant.  He 
was  speaking  particularly  of  the  organization  of  trade.  I  spoke  of 
how  much  we  heard  of  the  religious  feeling  in  Belfast,  and  he  said 
it  was  mostly  talk — that,  for  instance,  you  do  not  find  Catholic 
people  trading  at  a  Catholic  store  or  Protestant  people  trading  at 
a  Protestant  store.     They  go  where  they  find  things  the  cheapest. 

ULSTER  RELIGIOUS  ISSUE  KEPT  ALIVE  BY 
MILLIONAIRE  EMPLOYERS 

Q.  We  have  not  been  able  to  get  any  witnesses  from  Ulster,  and 
since  that  seems  to  be  one  of  the  Irish  issues,  if  you  can  throw  any 


434 

more  light  on  that,  I  would  be  very  glad  of  it.  Just  how  is  this 
issue  raised?     Who  keeps  it  alive,  if  it  is  not  a  real  issue? 

A.  I  spoke  to  labor  people  in  Belfast.  I  spoke  particularly  to 
Dawson  Gordon,  who  is  one  of  the  officials  of  the  Textile  Workers' 
Federation  there. 

Q.     Mr.  Basil  Manly:  Is  he  a  Protestant? 

A.  Yes,  he  is  a  Protestant.  And  he  told  me  that  the  religious 
issue,  like  the  political  issue,  is  kept  alive  by  the  big  millionaires 
in  Belfast;  that  while  the  workers  were  kept  separated,  they  were 
not  able  to  organize.  He  said,  for  instance,  that  before  the  war  a 
labor  organizer  would  go  into  a  meeting  that  was  held  for  the  pur- 
poses of  organization,  and  he  would  begin  his  speech.  He  would 
no  sooner  begin  than  the  crowd  would  say,  "Are  you  a  Unionist?" 
or  "Are  you  a  Sinn  Feiner?"  And  he  would  have  to  answer.  And 
according  to  his  answer,  one-half  of  the  people  would  leave  the 
hall.  The  result  was  that  before  the  war  they  had  a  textile  organi- 
zation of  only  about  four  hundred  members.  But  during  the  war 
the  high  cost  of  living  drove  them  to  organize,  and  at  the  end  of 
the  war  there  was  something  like  forty  thousand  members  of  this 
organization.  And  since  Protestant  and  Catholic  workmen  have 
come  together  and  organized  themselves,  they  have  doubled  their 
wages.  For  spinners,  for  instance,  the  wages  were  three  dollars  a 
week;  and  by  organization  they  have  raised  them  to  seven  or  seven 
and  a  half  dollars  a  week.  He  said  that  labor  meetings  have  taken 
place,  some  of  them  in  Hibernian  halls  and  some  of  them  in  Orange 
halls,  without  regard  to  religious  differences.  He  even  told  of  a 
labor  parade  in  a  small  town  outside  of  Belfast  where  one-half  the 
band  was  Hibernian  and  the  other  half  was  Orange,  and  yet  there 
was  perfect  harmony! 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  means  that  one-half  of  them  were  Cath- 
olic and  one-half  of  them  Protestant? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  In  these  meetings  where  they  would  ask  the  labor  organizers 
if  they  were  Unionists,  that  did  not  imply  any  religious  difference, 
did  it? 

A.     As  a  rule  that  Unionists  are  Protestants. 

Q.  You  said  that  when  someone  spoke  at  these  meetings  called 
for  organization  purposes,  they  always  asked  the  question  whether 
they  were  Unionists,  and,  depending  on  their  answer,  about  one- 
half  of  their  audience  would  leave.  Now,  what  I  wanted  to  get  at 
is  whether  there  is  any  religious  question  involved  in  that. 

A.     Yes.    I  said  that  these  people  would  ask  from  the  floor,  "Are 


435 

you  a  Sinn  Feiner?"  or  "Are  you  a  Unionist?"  And  they  would 
also  ask,  "What  is  your  religion?" 

Q.  But  I  want  to  find  if,  when  they  would  ask,  "Are  you  a 
Unionist?"  and  "Are  you  a  Sinn  Feiner?"  there  is  any  religious 
line  involved  in  that  question. 

A.  I  think  that  the  Unionist  leaders  before  the  war  were  pretty 
thoroughly  Protestant. 

Q.     Well,  how  are  they  now? 

A.  In  1919,  I  think  it  was,  that  the  International  Labor  Confer- 
ence was  held  in  Berne,  in  Switzerland,  and  at  that  conference 
Ulster  labor  representatives,  very  mainly  Protestants,  backed  the 
rest  of  Irish  labor  in  a  demand  for  self-determination. 

ULSTER  LABOR  ORGANIZATIONS  A  SOLVENT  FOR 
POLITICAL  PREJUDICES 

Q.  Now,  as  I  understand  you  in  regard  to  Ulster,  the  people 
seem  to  be  divided  somewhat  on  the  religious  issue,  and  that  is 
entering  into  this  controversy  that  is  going  on  there  now.  Is  that 
right? 

A.  It  has  been  an  issue.  I  think  it  is  growing  less  of  an  issue 
all  the  time. 

Q.  Now,  in  what  ways  is  it  growing  less?  Do  you  mean  by  that 
that  the  question  as  to  whether  certain  persons  are  Unionists  or 
Sinn  Feiners  is  decided  upon  the  religious  beliefs  of  the  people, 
or  is  it  in  less  degree  that  way  now  than  it  was  before  the  war  or 
during  the  war? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  people  are  forgetting  their  religious  prejudices 
through  these  labor  organizations.  When  they  get  together  they 
find  they  are  not  such  terrible  people  after  all. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  place  in  Ireland  besides  Belfast  where  this 
religious  issue  is  involved? 

A.     No,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.     How  are  the  people  divided  numerically? 

A.  They  are  almost  half  and  half.  In  Ulster  the  Catholics  are 
only  a  little  less  than  the  Protestants. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  mean  the  whole  province  as  distin- 
guished from  the  city  of  Belfast?     Excuse  me,  Senator. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:   Now,   what   kind    are   Protestants? 

A.  The  rich  mill  owners  are  almost  all  Protestant  Unionists. 
Then  there  were  a  great  many  Protestant  laborers.  And  then  the 
mass  of  the  Catholic  people  were  laborers. 


436 

WHY  ULSTER  FACTORY  OWNERS  ARE  UNIONISTS 

Q.  Now,  is  there  any  difference  in  policy  on  the  part  of  Great 
Britain  towards  Ulster  than  towards  the  balance  of  Ireland?  Why 
is  it  that  the  rich  factory  owners  are  Unionists? 

A.     Their  industries  have  been  protected  by  England. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  am  trying  to  get  at.  How  have  they  been 
protected? 

A.  I  think  they  have  been  protected  by  permitting  men  like 
Carson  to  work  on  the  religious  prejudices  of  the  people,  so  that 
the  rich  mill  owners  profit  by  the  division  of  the  people,  especially 
the  laboring  people. 

Q.  Now,  how  do  they  profit?  How  does  that  result  in  a  profit 
to  the  rich  mill  owners? 

A.  So  long  as  the  laborers  are  kept  apart,  the  labor  cost  of  the 
mill  owners  is  very  much  less,  because  the  laborers  are  not  able  to 
ask  for  higher  wages.     They  have  not  the  strength  of  organization. 

Q.  Then  the  organization  of  the  laborers  decreases  the  profits  of 
the  mill  owners  by  getting  higher  wages? 

A.     Yes,  yes. 

Q.  And  as  that  organization  proceeds,  the  religious  issue  dis- 
appears? 

A.     Yes,  it  is  disappearing. 

FUNDAMENTAL  DIVISION  NOT  RELIGIOUS  BUT 
ECONOMIC 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  May  I  ask  a  few  questions  along  that  line? 
You  have  never  known  a  unanimity  of  opinion  upon  any  great  ques- 
tion anywhere  in  the  world? 

A.    No. 

Q.  And  there  is  not  in  Ireland  today  on  this  question  of  a 
Republic? 

A.  No,  but  I  think  there  is  possibly  the  greatest  unanimity  there 
that  has  ever  existed  on  a  great  issue  in  any  country  of  the  world. 

Q.     Looking  towards  independence? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  get  this  foundation  for  a  correct  division  of 
the  forces  in  Ireland.  Do  I  gather  from  your  testimony,  to  sum  it 
up,  that  the  movement  for  a  free,  independent  Ireland  is  led  by 
the  liberal-thinking,  intellectual  forces  of  Ireland,  and  that  the 
opposition  is  led  by  the  capitalistic  class,  supported  by  such  people 
as  they  can  influence  along  religious  lines?  Is  that  a  summary  of 
the  whole  situation?     Tell  us  in  your  own  words. 


437 

A.     I  think  that  that  might  be  considered  a  summary  of  it. 

Q.  That  is,  that  the  mental,  thinking  forces,  the  intellectual 
class  that  you  have  spoken  of  as  meeting,  have  rallied  to  their 
support  the  great  mass  of  the  people,  approaching  an  overwhelming 
percentage,  for  independence  and  self-determination;  and  opposed 
to  them  is,  first  of  all.  the  capitalistic  class,  plus  such  forces  in  the 
north  of  Ireland  as  they  have  been  able  to  rally  to  their  support  by 
appeals  along  religious  lines? 

A.  Yes,  but  I  would  like  to  add  to  that  that  in  my  opinion  it 
would  have  been  impossible  for  these  brilliant  young  leaders  to 
rally  the  forces  in  Ireland  behind  them  unless  the  people  were 
driven  to  revolt  by  the  economic  conditions  that  are  pressing  into 
them. 

Q.  Exactly.  But  that  is  one  reason  why  they  have  been  able  to 
get  the  people  behind  them. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  But  the  leaders  are  what  we  call  in  America  the  liberals  and 
the  intellectual  class? 

A.  Yes;  I  don't  know  what  you  mean  by  "liberal,"  but  they  are 
an  extremely  intelligent  class. 

Q.  I  mean  by  liberals  intelligent,  forward-looking  people  who 
have  no  prejudices,  who  are  trying  to  find  sound  and  fundamental 
notions  of  life  and  government.     Is  that  not  true? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  Did  you  find  religious  differences  involved  among  the  Re- 
publican leaders? 

A.     No,  oh,  no. 

Q.  Is  there  any  thought  of  religious  differences  at  all  among 
those  men  and  women? 

A.    No. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  I  was  not  here  at  the  beginning  of 
your  testimony.     How  long  ago  have  you  been  in  Ireland? 

A.     I  was  there  from  March  16,  1919,  to  the  end  of  June,  1919. 

Q.     This  year? 

A.     1919. 

ORGANIZATION  OF  IRISH  LABOR 

Q.  In  the  south  of  Ireland,  where  the  Catholics  are  in  the  great 
majority,  perhaps  ninety  per  cent.,  how  did  you  find  the  workers 
organized  where  Catholics  were  in  the  majority?  Did  you  find  them 
generally  organized,  or  were  they  about  as  poorly  organized  as  they 
were  in  the  north  of  Ireland? 


438 

A.  I  think  that  labor  organization  is  proceeding  very  rapidly  in 
Ireland.  The  Irish  Transport  and  the  General  Workers'  Unions  have 
jumped  tremendously,  by  the  tens  of  thousands,  in  the  last  year 
or  so. 

Q.  Yes.  The  point  I  want  to  get  at  is  this:  before  you  came 
from  Ireland,  did  you  find  that  in  the  south  of  Ireland  there  had 
been  a  labor  movement  there  prior  to  your  coming  to  Ireland;  and, 
if  so,  what  kind  of  labor  movement  was  it?  Did  it  have  any 
strength?     Did  it  amount  to  anything? 

A.     Before  I  came  to  Ireland? 

Q.  I  mean  the  history  of  it.  What  did  it  amount  to  before  the 
war  began  in  Europe? 

A.  Nothing.  I  think  that  before  the  strike  of  1913  in  Dublin, 
labor  was  practically  unorganized. 

Q.     Yes.     They  were  practically  unorganized? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     At  what  part  of  Ireland  was  that? 

A.     The  big  strike  was  at  Dublin. 

Q.  The  religious  issue  did  not  seem  to  be  raised  in  the  south  of 
Ireland? 

A.     No. 

Q.  And  the  Catholics  and  Protestants  seemed  to  be  able  to  agree 
and  get*  into  the  same  labor  unions? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  But  in  the  north  of  Ireland,  where  the  Protestants  are  in  the 
overwhelming  majority  (perhaps  not  so  overwhelming  as  the  Cath- 
olics are  in  the  south),  there  was  religious  difficulty? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Now,  I  am  assuming  that  the  Catholics  in  the  south  were 
organized  prior  to  and  before  the  northern  workers.    Is  that  true? 

A.  I  think  the  shipyard  workers  in  Belfast  were  pretty  thor- 
oughly organized  first. 

Q.     Yes,  I  understand.     But  I  mean  the  textile  trades. 

A.     No,  I  don't  think  so. 

WAGES  AND  STANDARDS  OF  LIVING 

Q.  In  your  investigation,  did  you  find  any  difference  between 
the  wages  in  the  south  of  Ireland  and  those  in  the  north? 

A.  In  the  old  established  organizations  like  the  shipbuilders 
they  were  getting  pretty  good  wages.  I  forget  just  what  they  earned. 
The  wages  had  increased  in  Dublin  through  the  Dock  Workers;  and 


439 

through  the  Transport  Workers  they  had  during  the  war  almost 
doubled. 

Q.  That  is  not  the  point  I  am  trying  to  get  at.  In  the  north  of 
Ireland,  where  the  religious  differences  are  the  greatest,  were  the 
wages  in  that  part  of  Ireland  anywhere  near  as  good  or  better  than 
they  were  in  the  south  of  Ireland,  where  there  was  no  apparent 
religious  difference? 

A.  It  is  very  hard  to  compare  the  wages  in  the  north  and  south 
of  Ireland,  because  there  is  so  much  factory  work  in  the  north.  In 
the  south  the  men  are  employed  in  farm  labor  and  casual  work; 
but  in  Belfast  there  is  more  factory  work. 

Q.  Yes,  yes.  So  that  the  textile  industry  seemed  to  be  located 
mostly  in  the  north  of  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  standard  of  living  there  in  the  north  of  Ireland 
when  you  were  there? 

A.  I  think,  in  a  way,  it  was  worse  than  that  in  the  south  of 
Ireland,  for  this  reason,  that  the  people  were  so  driven  by  factory 
work  that  on  the  streets  as  you  would  meet  them  they  would  appear 
very  thin  and  underfed.  Even  the  young  girls  in  Belfast  do  not 
seem  to  have  money  enough  to  dress  up,  and  would  wear  those  black 
shawls  over  their  heads. 

Q.  Did  you  find  any  particular  prejudice  against  the  word 
"labor  union"  among  the  people? 

A.     No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  There  did  not  seem  to  be  any  particular  prejudice  against 
that? 

A.     No. 

IRISH  LABOR  FAVORS  INDEPENDENCE 

Q.  And  those  that  you  did  find  organized  in  either  the  north  or 
south  of  Ireland — you  have  interviewed  a  number  of  those  people, 
I  suppose? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  what  position  did  those  men  and  women  that  you  did 
meet  take  on  this  question  of  the  freedom  of  Ireland? 

A.     They  were  for  self-determination. 

Q.     They  were  for  independence,  that  means? 

A.  Yes.  That  has  been  shown  by  their  action  at  the  Berne  Labor 
Conference. 

Q.     Yes,  but  resolutions  adopted  at  conventions  would  not  mean 


440  * 

as  much  to  me  as  the  sentiments  you  would  gather  by  living  among 
the  people  themselves. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  met  the  rank  and  file,  I  suppose. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Protestant  men  and  women? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  spoke  to  them  about  self-determination  for  Ireland? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  what  did  they  say? 

A.  Dawson  Gordon  told  me  that  the  political  question  would 
absolutely  have  to  be  settled  before  the  rise  of  the  unions  in  Ulster 
could  go  on  and,  in  his  opinion,  develop  as  they  ought  to.  Labor 
therefore  stands  for  the  settling  of  the  political  question,  and  be- 
lieves that  only  self-determination  can  settle  the  question. 

Q.  They  are  not  afraid  that  the  pope  is  going  to  run  Ireland, 
then? 

A.     No. 

Q.  And  they  think  that  self-determination  alone  can  settle  the 
question? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Just  one  question.  We  have  had  other  witnesses  here  and  I 
have  asked  them  the  same  question  that  I  am  asking  you.  From 
what  witnesses  we  have  had  before  us,  it  seems  that  the  greatest 
religious  differences  have  been  in  the  north  of  Ireland,  where  the 
Protestants  measure  up  pretty  strong,  or  stronger  than  the  Cath- 
olics. Now,  in  the  south  of  Ireland,  where  the  Catholics  are  in  the 
majority,  there  does  not  seem  to  be  much  religious  difference — so 
much  so  that  Catholics  are  buried  in  a  Protestant  graveyard,  and 
that  boroughs  having  a  Catholic  majority  elect  Protestant  leaders. 
Yet  I  understand  that  the  living  conditions  in  Belfast  have  been  very 
horrible,  wages  have  been  very  low,  and  girls  working  in  water 
up  to  their  ankles.  And  it  seemed  to  me  that  these  religious  differ- 
ences have  been  raised  by  employers  to  keep  their  employees  from 
organizing  and  raising  their  standard  of  living  and  the  like.  Now, 
did  you  get  that  impression  while  you  were  there? 

A.     I  did.     I  spoke  about  that  before  you  came  in. 

THE  SCHOOL  DISPUTE  IN  ULSTER 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question  about 
the  public  schools  in  Ireland.  The  buildings  are  not  erected  by 
public  funds? 


441 

A.  Partly.  I  have  forgotten  the  exact  arrangement,  but  it  was 
something  like  this:  a  person  who  desired  to  erect  a  school  could 
build  it  and  equip  it  at  his  own  expense,  and  then  it  was  run  by  a 
parliamentary  grant.  I  haven't  thought  or  written  about  that  ques- 
tion lately,  but  I  could  look  it  up,  of  course. 

Q.  The  parish  schools  were  already  built,  and  the  Catholic 
population  did  not  wish  to  be  taxed  by  the  school  boards  because 
they  had  their  parish  schools,  as  I  understand  it.  This  educational 
issue  is  a  strong  issue  in  I  Ister  between  Catholics  and  Protestants, 
is  it  not? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  If  we  could  gather  the  point  of  difference  there,  it  might  be 
illuminating.     Or  did  you  gather  that  material? 

A.  I  have  that  material  exactly  in  a  pamphlet  by  the  Viceregal 
Commission  on  Education.  I  have  it  here,  and  can  leave  it  with 
the  Commission. 

Q.  But  the  point  is  that  the  Catholic  population  already  have 
their  parish  schools,  and  do  not  wish  to  be  taxed  for  the  maintenance 
of  board  schools.     Is  that  it? 

A.  Not  exactly-  The  schools,  as  I  understand  it,  have  been 
erected  by  individual  benefactors  or  by  the  expense  of  the  pastorate, 
Protestant  or  Catholic.  And  the  Catholics  in  Ulster  believe  that 
they  have  been  fairly  well  taken  care  of  under  this  system,  and  that 
the  arrangement  in  the  grant  would  make  an  extra  expense  for 
them;  and  they  believe  that  they  would  be  paying,  then,  some  of 
the  expenses  for  other  schools;  and  they  believe  that  they  are  al- 
ready sufficiently  taxed. 

Q.     That  is  what  I  meant.     Il  would  be  double  taxation. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  what  about  the  Protestant  schools  there? 
Are  they  paid  for  out  of  public  funds? 

A.  Well,  the  parliamentary  grant  goes  to  them  as  well  as  to  the 
Catholic  schools. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  wanted  to  get  at.  Is  there  any  discrimination 
about  the  Catholics  and  the  Protestants  in  the  schools? 

A.  No,  not  that  I  have  heard  about.  I  don't  think  there  is  any 
legal  discrimination. 

Q.     Is  there  any  discrimination  in  administration? 

A.     No,  not  that  I  have  heard  of. 

Q.  Can  Catholic  children  go  to  Protestant  schools  and  Protestant 
children  go  to  Catholic  schools? 

A.     Yes,  they  can. 


442 

Q.  Now,  as  I  understand  it,  part  of  the  money  is  paid  by  the 
public  funds  and  part  from  the  churches. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     They  both  get  support  from  public  funds? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  the  public  funds  are  divided?  Is  it  in 
proportion  to  the  number  of  population? 

A.     Yes,  it  is  in  proportion  to  the  number  of  population. 

Q.  Is  there  any  claim  on  the  part  of  the  Catholics  that  the 
Protestants  are  getting  too  much  from  the  public  funds  already,  or 
any  feeling  on  the  part  of  the  Protestants  that  the  Catholics  are 
getting  too  much? 

A.  I  have  not  heard  anything  about  that,  but  the  Catholics  think 
that  under  the  new  arrangement  they  would  be  paying  too  much 
in  taxes. 

Q.     What  is  that  new  arrangement? 

A.  It  has  been  a  long  time  since  I  have  written  anything  on 
that,  and  the  details  have  escaped  me. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  they  think  that  under  the  new  arrange- 
ment there  would  be  a  discrimination,  and  that  the  Catholics  would 
be  paying  too  much  for  their  education? 

A.     That  is  what  they  believe. 

Q.     What  opinion  did  you  come  to? 

A.     I  don't  remember  forming  any  definite  conclusion. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  As  I  understand  it,  Miss  Russell, 
the  Protestants  want  public  schools,  while  the  Catholics  are  holding 
on  to  the  idea  of  parish  schools.  The  real  difference  is  between  two 
theories  of  education.  It  is  not  a  matter  of  funds  so  much.  The 
Catholics  are  objecting  because  they  would  be  taxed  for  a  public 
school  system  when  they  want  their  parish  schools.     Is  that  not  it? 

A.  I  did  not  hear  the  matter  explained  that  way  when  I  was 
there.     But  it  is  very  possible. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Of  course,  the  financial  question  is  im- 
plicit in  it. 

ECONOMIC  CLEAVAGE  UNDERLIES  POLITICAL 
AND  RELIGIOUS  ISSUES 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Miss  Russell,  I  want  to  ask  you  about  the 
question  of  labor's  attitude  towards  self-determination.  Did  you 
get  any  data  on  which  you  could  form  an  opinion  about  the  attitude 
of  Protestant  workers  or  labor  leaders  towards  self-determination? 


443 

A.  Protestant  labor  was  for  self-determination  as  far  as  I  could 
make  out  from  my  conversations  with  Protestant  labor  leaders. 

Q.     You  talked  with  Protestant  labor  leaders? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  Protestant  labor  leaders  were  for  self-determination? 

A.     Yes.      Dawson   Gordon   was  for  self-determination. 

Q.     You  are  speaking  now  of  Ulster? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  there  underlying  the  Irish  question,  then, 
a  line  of  economic  cleavage  that  is  responsible  for  the  opposition 
to  self-determination  by  one  class  and  the  support  of  it  by  another? 
Is  there  an  economic  issue  there,  then,  as  well  as  a  political  issue? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  dominant  issue,  then,  or  a  subordinate 
issue?  What  influences  the  majority  in  the  House  of  Lords  and 
the  large  majority  in  the  House  of  Commons?  Is  that  economic, 
political,  or  religious? 

A.  Your  first  question  was  whether  there  was  an  economic  cleav- 
age in  Ireland? 

Q.  Whether  you  could  explain  the  Irish  question  on  economic 
terms  rather  than  on  political  terms? 

A.  Yes.  And  you  also  asked  if  it  was  subordinate  to  the  politi- 
cal question? 

Q.  Yes.  When  Ireland  was  alien-owned  by  alien  landlords,  it 
was  easy  enough  to  understand  that  English  landlords  would  oppose 
self-determination  for  Ireland  because  Ireland  might  then  impair 
the  value  of  their  property,  because  Ireland  could  tax  it  or  levy 
upon  it,  or  do  anything  with  it.  But  today  I  understand  that  between 
sixty  and  seventy  per  cent,  of  the  land  is  owned  by  the  Irish  peas- 
ants. But  the  English  landlords  who  are  left  might  still  fear  self- 
determination  because  their  estates  would  be  broken  up. 
A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  about  the  commercial  class — the  banking  class? 
A.     There  are  ninety-six  stock  banks  in  Ireland.     I  think  that  six 
out  of  nine  are  controlled  in  England. 

Q.     So  that  English  bankers  might  oppose  self-determination  in 
the  banking  interests? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.     How  about  the  big  shipbuilders,  or  Harlan  &  Wolff — that  is  a 
Belfast  firm,  a  Unionist  firm,  is  it  not? 
A.     I  do  not  know. 


444 

Q.     But  the  shipping  interests  are  English,  are  they  not,  rather 
than  Irish? 
A.     Yes. 

DISCRIMINATION  AGAINST   IRISH   MERCHANTS 
AND  FARMERS 

Q.  And  the  jobbers  or  wholesalers  or  speculators  who  control 
Irish  products,  are  they  Irishmen  in  Belfast  or  are  they  not? 

A.  They  are  mostly  English  or  pro-English  Irishmen,  according 
to  the  statement  made  to  me  by  Dennis  MacCullough,  who  is  a  piano 
merchant  in  Belfast.  He  spoke  of  the  difficulties  that  he  had  to 
encounter  in  his  business  because  of  the  discrimination  in  his  busi- 
ness against  Irishmen. 

Q.     Because  of  the  discrimination  by  whom? 

A.  He  said,  for  instance,  that  he  found  it  difficult  to  get  store 
space  from  English  landlords. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  he  say  anything  about  banking  accom- 
modations? 

A.  He  did  not  say  anything  to  me  about  that,  but  Professor 
Smith,  of  the  University  of  Cork,  told  me  that  the  Irish  borrowers 
from  the  English-controlled  Irish  banks  were  charged  one  per  cent, 
more  interest  than  English  borrowers  from  English  banks.  Aside 
from  that — 

Q.  Just  a  moment  before  you  leave  that.  Did  he  give  any  basis, 
any  reason  for  that?  Is  it  merely  because  they  are  Irish,  or  is  it 
because  of  some  actual  economic  basis? 

A.  He  said,  as  I  remember  it,  that  on  account  of  the  conditions 
of  the  country,  money  was  made  dearer  there  because  the  risk  in 
giving  it  out  was  greater. 

Senator  Norris:  You  were  just  finishing  up  when  you  were  inter- 
rupted for  something  else. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  I  was  going  to  tell  about  the  Irish  Agricultural 
Organization  Society,  that  spoke  about  the  difficulty  the  farmers 
especially  had  in  getting  money.  On  that  point,  in  a  little  pamphlet 
called  "Crop  Credit,"  the  Society  says:  "It  is  rarely  that  the  joint 
stock  banks  will  lend  the  small  sums  that  the  farmers  require  at 
less  than  ten  per  cent,  interest  deducted  beforehand.  Then  there  is 
the  cost  of  postage  or  traveling  expense  if  the  applicant  does  not 
live  near  a  bank.  Again,  the  bank  does  not  lend  to  the  farmer  for 
a  period  that  enables  him  to  make  a  profit  out  of  his  loan;  and  a 
Joan  that  is  made  to  mature  too  soon  often  cripples  the  borrower 
rather  than  be  of  any  assistance  to  him.     But  even  then  it  is  im- 


445 


possible  to  secure  a  loan  in  many  cases,  and  the  farmer  is  compelled 
to  inquire  elsewhere." 

To  overcome  that  difficulty,  the  Society  has  established  about  a 
hundred  cooperative  banks  in  Ireland. 

Mr.   Basil   Manly:   Are   there   any   other   questions   by   the   Com- 


A  PARALLEL  IN  THE  PHILIPPINES 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  would  like  to  draw  a  parallel  if  I  can. 
Last  week  there  was  a  gentleman  here  who  had  been  in  the  Philip- 
pines for  a  time.  He  said  it  was  not  possible  to  discuss  inde- 
pendence for  the  Philippines  in  the  clubs  in  the  Philippines  where 
Americans  were — Americans  who  had  interests  there,  who  were 
buying  and  selling;  that  the  hostility  to  Philippine  independence 
sprang  very  largely  from  the  Americans  there  who  were  exploiting 
the  Philippines.  He  named  various  kinds  of  business  and  commer- 
cial interests  there  that  were  exploiting  the  Philippines.  We  have 
not  been  in  the  Philippines  very  long,  but  in  that  time  the  exploiting 
interests  seem  to  have  gained  such  power  that  they  can  oppose  the 
independence  of  that  country.  At  the  same  time,  this  same  kind  of 
interests  might  be  back  of  the  opposition  to  independence  for  Ire- 
land.    Have  you  any  facts  on  that  point? 

SUPPRESSION   OF   IRISH   INDUSTRY    BY   ENGLISH 
GOVERNMENT 

A.  I  think  that  Irish  industry  has  been  suppressed  there  for  the 
benefit  of  English  industry,  and  during  the  war  I  have  a  specific 
case  where  industry  was  suppressed  for  the  benefit  of  the  box  con- 
tractors in  Liverpool.     Would  you  like  that  case? 

Senator  Norris:  Yes,  give  us  that. 

The  Witness:  I  spoke  to  Edward  Riordan,  who  is  secretary  of  the 
Irish  Industrial  Development  Association.  It  is  an  association  of 
which  the  Earl  of  Carrick,  Sir  Nugent  Everard,  the  Countess  of 
Dessart,  and  other  non-Sinn  Feiners  are  executive  members.  Mr. 
Riordan  said  that  for  the  first  two  years  of  the  war  Ireland  was 
able  to  get  no  war  supply  contracts  from  England.  Then  in  1916 
a  very  representative  committee  of  all  Ireland  called  upon  Lloyd 
George,  who  was  then  minister  of  munitions,  and  Lloyd  George 
said  to  them  (I  quote  exactly  from  Mr.  Riordan)  :  "It  is  fair  that 
Ireland,  contributing  as  she  does  not  only  in  money,  but  in  flesh 
and  blood,  should  have  her  fair  share  of  expenditures. "     After  that. 


446 

committee  had  called  on  Lloyd  George,  Ireland  was  given  five  small 
national  plants.  The  insignificance  of  these  can  be  seen  from  the 
fact  that  when  the  armistice  was  declared,  there  was  a  little  over 
two  thousand  Irish  persons  working  in  them. 

Some  private  contractors  have  been  able  to  get  contracts  from 
England,  and  one  of  these  was  a  box  contractor.  Mr.  Riordan  said 
that,  unlike  the  English  firms,  the  Irish  firms  received  no  money 
advances  and  no  machinery,  but  took  contracts  at  competitive  prices, 
and  had  no  guarantee  that  these  contracts  would  be  continued. 
When  the  box  contracts  had  expired,  the  All  Ireland  Committee 
went  to  the  chief  of  the  Box  Commission  in  London,  and  the  min- 
ister told  them  that  the  Commission  did  not  care  whether  they  got 
any  more  boxes  made  in  Ireland;  that  the  box  manufacturers  in 
Liverpool  had  come  to  them  and  said  that  they  wanted  no  more 
imported  boxes;  that  they  could  make  all  the  boxes  that  were  neces- 
sary; that  they  wanted  only  timber  for  case  boards,  either  dried 
or  undried;  and  that  they  would  then  get  the  manufacture  of  all 
necessary  boxes  carried  out  in  England.  Mr.  Riordan  wro'e  an 
article  on  the  subject,  which  is  published  in  Studies,  a  Dublin  maga- 
zine, for  June,  1918.     It  contains  that  complete  box-contract  story. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  say,  in  other  words,  that  when 
Great  Britain  was  in  America  buying  supplies  by  the  hundreds  of 
millions  of  dollars  worth,  that  she  just  gave  contracts  to  Ireland 
enough  to  employ  about  two  thousand  people,  which  in  America 
would  not  make  a  decent  size .  village,  even  in  war  time?  And 
therefore  Ireland  is  not  supposed  to  develop  industrially? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  mines  in  Ireland?  To 
what  extent  are  they  developed? 

A.  Mr.  Riordan  spoke  about  three  of  the  principal  mines  i.i 
Ireland.  He  said  that  until  the  war  these  mines  did  not  even 
have  railroad  connections;  that  the  ancient  method  of  carting  coal 
on  donkey-carts  from  the  mouth  of  the  mines  was  still  taking  place 
in  two  of  the  mines.  During  the  war,  however,  there  was  a  spur 
built  to  the  mines  in  Kilkenny. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  of  how  many  men  are  employed  in  and 
about  the  mines  in  Ireland? 

A.     No,  I  have  no  idea. 

Q.     Well,  have  you  any  idea  as  to  the  deposits  of  coal  in  Ireland? 

A.  In  1881  there  was  an  estimate  made  by  Professor  Hall  which 
placed  the  net  tonnage  at  one  hundred  eighty-one  million  tons,  I 
believe.     I  could  find  the  exact  figures  for  you. 


447 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  grade  of  coal  that  they 
have  in  Ireland? 

A.  The  grade  of  coal  is  not  as  good  as  that  which  is  obtained 
in  Wales,  but  it  is  still  quite  usable. 

Q.  So  that  your  conception  of  the  mining  situation  is  that  the 
mines  of  Ireland  have  not  been  developed,  have  not  been  scratched 
yet,  have  been  simply  left  to  lie  undeveloped? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  when  that  is  the  situation,  they  are  importing  coal  from 
America,* when  across  the  channel  they  have  millions  of  tons  of  coal 
that  could  be  had  much  more  easily,  but  they  do  not  take  it.  It 
seems,  therefore,  that  there  is  a  desire  to  prevent  Ireland  from  de- 
veloping as  an  industrial  nation.  Is  that  the  conclusion  that  you 
come  to? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  the  conclusion  that  I  have  come  to. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Who  owns  those  mines  you  spoke  of? 

A.  I  know  that  of  those  mines  near  Kilkenny,  the  Countess 
Dessart  is  one  of  the  owners. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  You  said  she  is  not  a  Republican. 

A.     No. 

Senator  Walsh:  Will  you  go  on,  Mr.  Manly,  and  finish  the 
testimony? 

NON-APPLICATION    OF   MINIMUM    WAGE   LAW 
PERMITS  WRETCHED  WAGES 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Miss  Russell,  what  are  the  facts  about  the  mini- 
mum wage  law?  Is  there  a  difference  between  its  application  in 
England  and  in  Ireland,  or  does  the  minimum  wage  law  apply  to 
Ireland  at  all? 

A.  I  would  like  to  contrast  the  wages  there.  In  Belfast  the 
women  who  take  embroidery,  for  instance,  into  their  homes  from 
the  linen  mills  get,  I  was  told  by  Mollie  Donovan,  one  of  the  trades 
union  organizers,  from  $1.25  to  $1.50  a  week  by  steady  working. 
In  1915  the  Ministry  of  Labor  in  Great  Britain  passed  a  rule,  a 
statutory  rule,  Order  No.  357,  which  said  that  a  girl  of  eighteen 
working  a  six-day  week  and  eight  hours  a  day  should  be  paid  at 
east  $6.72  a  week.  There  was  a  postscript  to  this  rule  which  said 
that  this  rule  shall  apply  to  all  parts  of  Great  Britain  but  not  to 
Ireland.  I  have  that  ruling  order  among  the  documents  I  have 
with  me  now. 


448 

"COW   LOTS"   CAUSE    EMIGRATION,   UNEMPLOY- 
MENT, AND   CHEAP  LABOR 

Q.  \ou  were  up  at  Donegal,  in  the  country,  where  the  coopera- 
tives have  been  developed,  were  yr>u  not? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason,  as  you  learned  it,  for  the  development 
of  the  cooperatives  in  that  section  of  the  country? 

A.  In  that  particular  section  a  great  deal  of  emigration  has 
taken  place,  on  account  of  the  change  of  the  country  from -tillage  to 
cattle-raising.  And  when  a  great  many  people  were  thrown  out 
of  jobs  there,  it  was  necessary  for  them  to  emigrate.  And  until 
the  establishment  of  the  cooperatives  there,  there  were  a  great  many 
Irish  boys  and  girls  who  had  to  go  either  to  America  or  migrate 
annually  to  the  English  and  Scotch  harvests.  By  the  establishment 
of  the  cooperatives  there,  not  only  the  cooperative  store  but  the 
cooperative  bank  and  especially  the  cooperative  knitting  mill,  a 
great  many  of  the  young  people  were  enabled  to  stay  at  home. 
During  the  war  there  were  about  four  hundred  girls  employed  in 
the  cooperative  knitting  factory  there. 

Q.  And  these  cooperative  enterprises  are  owned  by  the  people 
of  that  particular  locality? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  in  round  figures,  about  how  many  Irish  boys 
and  women  do  go  over  to  England  for  the  harvest  season? 

A.  I  was  told  by  Secretary  Campbell  of  the  Ministry  of  Labor 
that  there  was  an  annual  migration  of  about  fifty  thousand  Irish 
boys  and  girls  over  to  that  harvest. 

Q.     Do  you  know  how  long  that  harvest  season  lasts? 

A.     No,  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  go  over  for  the  entire  growing 
and  harvesting  season,  or  whether  it  is  just  for  a  short  season? 

A.  My  opinion  is  that  they  go  over  for  about  six  months  of  the 
year. 

Q.  And  that  is  caused  by  the  fact  that  in  Ireland  the  country 
has  become  primarily  a  grazing  and  dairying  country? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  that  there  is  not  land  enough  developed  to  keep  them  in 
Ireland;  that  these  Irish  boys  and  girls  go  over  to  help  harvest 
England's  crops  because  they  cannot  get  work  at  home? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  You  have  prepared  notes,  have  you  not,  Miss  Russell,  on 
some  of  these  questions? 


449 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Would  you  briefly  give  some  of  these  points  to  the  Com- 
mission? 

A.  Yes.  I  think  I  could,  Mr.  Manly.  The  first  point  was  in 
regard  to  the  change  of  the  country  from  a  tilled  country  to  a 
grazing  country.  This,  according  to  Arthur  Griffith,  who  is  the 
economist  of  the  Sinn  Fein  movement — 

Q.     You  met  Arthur  Griffith,  did  you  not? 

A.     Yes,  I  did.  Mr.  Manly. 

Q.     What  sort  of  man   is  he — a  scholarly   man? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  a  very  scholarly,  reserved,  almost  taciturn  man. 

Q.     How  old  is  he,  would  you  judge? 

A.     He  is  in  the  forties.  I  would  say. 

Q.     Did  he  impress  you  as  being  a  man  of  ability? 

A.     Yes,  sir;  of  very  great  ability. 

Q.  A  man  qualified,  you  would  say,  to  act  as  an  executive  of 
one  of  our  states? 

A.     Yes,  I  think  that  he  is. 

Q.     He  is  fully  of  that  caliber? 

A.     Yes.  he  is  distinctly  of  the  executive  type. 

Q.  I  just  wanted  to  bring  out  your  knowledge  of  him.  Proceed, 
please. 

A.  Mr.  Griffith  said  that  at  the  meeting  of  the  Irish  Parliament, 
which  was  called  for  the  American  delegation,  it  was  brought  out 
that  the  principal  method  by  which  Irish  industries  had  been  sup- 
pressed during  the  nineteenth  century  was  the  changing  of  the  coun- 
try from  a  tillage  country  to  a  grazing  country.  He  said  that 
during  the  nineteenth  century  England  wanted  a  cheap  meat  supply 
center,  and  there  was  not  room  enough  on  her  island  for  grazing, 
so  she  made  it  more  profitable  for  the  large  landowners  of  Ireland 
to  raise  cattle  than  crops.  Accordingly  the  large  landowners  turned 
their  entire  estates  into  large  cow  lots.  And  as  there  was  very  little 
labor  needed  to  herd  cattle,  and  very  little  labor  needed  in  side 
industries,  because  the  cattle  were  and  still  are  exported  on  the 
hoof,  millions  of  people  were  thrwon  out  of  employment. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  fundamental  reason  for  the  bad  living  and 
working  conditions  that  you  found  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes.  Then  the  point  of  the  suppression  of  industries  during 
the  war. 

Mr.  Manly:  You  touched  on  that.  I  think  we  might  pass  over 
that. 

The  Witness:  Yes.     And  also  the  banking  restrictions. 


450 

DEPOPULATION  OF  IRELAND  WORSE  THAN  THAT 
OF  OTHER  SUPPRESSED  NATIONS 

The  result  of  the  suppression  of  industries  is  that  the  individual 
person  in  Ireland  much  choose  between  emigration  and  low  wages 
in  Ireland.  While  I  was  in  Ireland,  Nationality,  a  Sinn  Fein  paper 
which  has  since  been  suppressed,  published  census  statistics  which 
showed  the  depopulation  of  Ireland.  They  showed  that  from  1841 
to  1911,  the  population  of  Ireland  fell  from  8,000,000  to  4,300,000. 
It  also  gave  the  decrease  by  counties,  and  some  of  the  counties  lost 
more  than  60  per  cent,  of  their  population.  In  Nationality  there 
was  also  a  comparison  of  the  population  in  other  suppressed  na- 
tions, none  of  which  has  suffered  as  has  Ireland.  There  was  a  com- 
parison with  Prussian  Poland.  Seventy  years  ago  Prussian  Poland 
had  only  half  of  Ireland's  population.  Today  it  has  three  times 
the  popuation.1 

STARVATION  WAGES 

I  spoke  of  the  low  wages  that  it  was  necessary  for  women  to  take 
when  they  could  get  factory  jobs.  But  I  did  not  speak  of  the  low 
wages  that  they  were  forced  to  take  as  domestics. 

Q.  What  were  the  prevailing  wages  for  domestics  that  you  found 
over  there? 

A.  Well,  one  night  in  a  night  refuge  in  Court  Street  I  picked 
two  possible  advertisements  from  one  of  the  newspapers  and  asked 
my  companions  at  the  table  which  one  of  them  to  take.  One  of 
them  was  for  a  general  housework  girl  to  live  with  the  family  at 
$50  a  year.  The  other  ran:  "Wanted — a  strong,  humble  housework 
girl,  to  live  out,  Si. 50  a  week." 

Q.     Senator  Walsh :  This  was  in  1919? 

A.  Yes,  in  1919.  The  married  women  must  earn  money  enough 
to  make  up  the  family  budget.  Lionel  Smith-Gordon  of  Plunkett 
House  made  an  investigation  in  1917,  an  investigation  which  was 
published  in  pamphlet  form  and  called  "Starvation  in  Dublin." 
The  pamphlet  was  not  permitted  to  go  out  of  the  British  Isles.  In 
that  pamphlet  he  said  that  the  annual  wage  of  an  unorganized  un- 
skilled worker  was  about  $260  a  year,  and  the  wage  of  organized 
unskilled  workers  was  about  $367.  But  he  made  the  point  that  to 
keep  an  average  family  of  five  just  going  on  food  alone  cost  $370. 
There  is  a  deficit  to  make  up  even  when  work  is  not  slack.  And 
it  is  the  women  who  meet  that  deficit. 


See  index :   Ireland,  population. 


451 

Q.  That  means  that  the  wives  and  daughters  must  go  to  work 
in  order  to  keep  the  family  ahove  the  starvation  line? 

A.  Yes.  For  instance,  when  I  was  staying  one  night  in  the 
dockers'  quarters  with  a  widow  in  one  of  the  typical  one-room  tene- 
ments near  the  River  Liffey  in  Duhlin,  the  sister-in-law  of  the  widow 
came  into  the  house  early  in  the  morning  and  told  her  that  her  man 
had  been  out  of  work  for  four  days,  and  she  wanted  to  know  if 
the  widow  could  keep  the  child  out  of  the  grate  that  day,  because 
she  had  to  go  out  washing.  In  the  same  building  there  was  a 
twenty-year-old  girl  with  a  little  blind  baby,  who  said  that  her  hus- 
band had  not  given  her  a  farthing  for  a  fortnight,  and  that  she  was 
getting  food  for  the  baby  from  her  mother. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Was  this  incident  due  to  dissipation  or  was 
it  due  to  economic  conditions? 

A.  It  was  due  to  economic  conditions.  This  was  in  the  dockers" 
quarter,  and  conditions  there  are  very  bad. 

Q.     Is  that   a   common   situation? 

A.  Yes,  it  is.  There  is  very  little  river  traffic  on  the  Liffey  now. 
During  the  war  there  were  many  boats  taking  timber  back  and  forth 
from  Ireland  over  to  England,  so  that  the  times  were  better  for  the 
dockers  than  they  were  after  the  war. 

ONE-ROOM   TENEMENTS   AND   A   DIET   OF   BREAD 
AND  TEA 


A.  In  Dublin  there  were  twenty-five  thousand  families  living  in 
one-room  tenements. 

Q.     Twenty-five  thousand  families? 

A.  Yes.  The  proportion  of  those  in  Dublin  living  more  than 
two  in  a  room  is  higher  than  that  of  any  other  city  in  the  British 
Isles.  It  is  more  than  twice  the  proportion  in  London.  I  have  here 
a  government  report  which  says:  "With  regard  to  the  number  of 
people  housed  in  one-room  dwellings,  Dublin  heads  the  list  with 
33.9  per  cent,  compared  to  London  with  13.4  per  cent.  Edinburgh 
comes  next  with  21.9  per  cent,  and  Glasgow  next  with  20  per  cent." 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  I  think  that  perhaps  the  twenty-five  thousand 
families  you  mentioned  is  just  a  slip  of  the  memory.  Have  you 
your  notes  there? 

A.     No.     George  Russell  told  me  that. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  is  the  population  of  Dublin? 

A.     About  four  hundred  thousand. 


452 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  many  people  in  an  average 
family  in  Dublin? 

A.  I  did  not  say,  Miss  Addams.  But  I  said  that  the  proportion 
of  those  living  two  or  more  to  a  room  in  Dublin  was  more  than 
twice  as  much  as  the  proportion  living  two  or  more  to  a  room  in 
London. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Thank  you. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  I  understand  you  to  tell  me  that  it  is  not 
an  uncommon  condition  for  a  family  of  mother  and  father  and 
daughters  and  sons  to  live  all  in  one  room? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  even  in  the  island  tribes  of  the  South  Sea 
Islands  the  boys  and  girls,  when  they  reach  majority,  are,  out  of  a 
sense  of  modesty,  housed  away  from  their  parents? 

A.     No,  I  didn't  know  that. 

Q.  And  yet  you  mean  to  tell  me  that  in  Dublin  grown-up  boys 
and  girls  sleep  and  live  in  that  one  room  with  their  parents,  and 
work  out  their  lives  there? 

A.  Yes.  And  yet  the  report  that  I  will  leave  with  the  Commis- 
sion shows  that  disease  due  to  immorality  is  astonishingly  low  in 
Ireland. 

Q.     Is  that  due  to  their  religious  convictions? 

A.     Yes,  perhaps. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  The  proportion  of  those  living  in 
one-room  tenements  in  Glasgow  is  also  very  high,  isn't  it? 

A.  Yes,  it  is;  but  Dublin  is  worse  than  any  other  city  in  the 
British  Isles,  according  to  the  figures  given  in  this  "Emergency  Re- 
port on  Housing  Conditions  in  Dublin." 

Chairman  Howe:  Well,  suppose  you  just  give  that  to  the 
stenographer,  Miss  Russell. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Would  you  want  to  make  a  comparison  be- 
tween living  conditions  in  Irish  cities — Dublin,  Belfast,  and  Cork — 
with  our  cities  here? 

A.  Well,  the  difference,  I  should  say,  is  that  there  is  more  of 
hopefulness  in  an  American  city— more  hope  of  work  than  there 
is  in  an  Irish  city. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  investigated  the  packing-house  district  in 
Chicago,  did  you  not,  not  so  long  ago — about  1918,  did  you  not? 

A.  No.  I  was  present  at  the  stockyard  hearings.  But  I  made 
some  budgets  of  the  people  in  the  Italian  district  and  elsewhere  in 
Chicago. 

Q.     Well,  how  did  the  conditions  in  the  Italian  district  in  Chi- 


i:,:; 

cago — the  general  living  and  housing  conditions — compare  with  the 
conditions  in  Dublin  and  Cork? 

A.  Well,  I  didn't  meet  any  families  in  my  budget  investigations 
that  were  living  in  one  room. 

Q.      And  that  was  a  common  condition,  however,  in   Dublin? 

A.  Yes.  And  1  did  not  meet  any  people  who  were  living  prin- 
cipally on  bread  and  tea,  and  I  did  meet  those  in  Dublin. 

Q.     Their   sole    diet    was    bread    and    tea? 

A.  Yes;  all  they  had  while  I  was  staying  in  the  dockers'  quarter 
was  bread  and  tea  and  jam.  I  think  there  is  a  very  significant 
statement  about  the  diet  of  the  Irish  people  in  a  report  of  the 
charitable  organization  called  the  Saint  Vincent  de  Paul  in  Dublin. 
In  the  pamphlet  called  "The  Poor  in  Dublin,"  they  have  this  sen- 
tence: "A  widowr  who,  after  paying  the  rent  of  her  room,  has  even 
a  shilling  a  day  to  feed  two  or  three  or  more  children,  is  considered 
a  doubtful  case  by  the  Society.  Yet  shilling  a  day  will  give  the 
family  only  bread  and  tea  and  maybe  a  few  potatoes.  Possibly  a 
little  oleomargarine  may  be  purchased,  but  under  no  circumstances 
can  the  family  be  said  to  have  sufficient  food." 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  This  means,  if  they  are  a  doubtful  case,  that  they 
will  not  get  charitable  relief? 

A.     Yes. 

POVERTY  OF  THE  PEASANTS 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Compare  that  with  the  conditions  of  the 
farmers  in  Ireland;  the  standard  of  living  in  the  west  of  Ireland, 
where  it  is  difficult  to  make  a  good  return  because  of  the  lack  of 
fertility  of  the  soil. 

A.  The  one-room  cabin  prevails  throughout  the  poorer  agricul- 
tural districts  of  western  Ireland.  In  Sligo  these  cabins  are  made 
often  of  mud,  sometimes  with  a  barrel  for  a  chimney.  In  Donegal, 
with  which  I  am  more  familiar,  the  one-room  cabin  also  prevails. 
Sometimes  there  is  a  room  in  the  rear  where  there  is  a  loom  for 
the  manufacture  of  tweed. 

Q.  That  is  the  domestic  industry  there— the  manufacture  of 
tweed? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  is  the  situation  of  the  typical  Irish 
peasant? 

A.     Yes,  I  would  sav  that  the  most  of  them  are  like  that. 


454 

Q.  It  is  true  that  two-thirds  of  Ireland  has  passed  from  land- 
lordism to  peasant  ownership;  and  it  is  still  as  bad  as  that? 

A.  Yes.  The  peasant  laborers  sell  their  labor  in  what  is  called 
the  hiring  fair,  at  which  cattle  and  horses  are  sold.  These  men 
stand  in  a  pen  and  offer  their  services  for  as  low  as  one  hundred 
dollars  a  year.  Their  employers  are  also  the  landlords,  and  if  they 
ask  for  a  rise  in  wages,  their  employers  can  evict  them.  That  hap- 
pened while  I  was  there. 

Q.  So  that  there  has  not  been  the  improvement  in  rural  condi- 
tions in  Ireland  that  we  have  been  led  to  believe  following  the 
Gladstone  and  the  Wyndham  Acts? 

A.  No.  During  the  war  there  was  a  great  increase  in  agricul- 
tural acreage  and  prosperity.  The  profits  of  the  farmers  did  in- 
crease, as  the  bank  returns  show.  But  according  to  the  statistics 
of  Professor  Smith,  of  Cork  University,  in  Ireland  this  post-war 
prosperity  would  last  only  about  two  post-war  years,  because  by 
that  time  England  would  have  re-established  her  former  agricultural 
trade  relations. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  further  points  you  want  to  make, 
Miss  Russell? 

EFFECT  OF  POVERTY  ON  HEALTH,  VITALITY, 
SANITY,  AND  LITERACY 

A.  There  was  just  the  point  on  health,  and  that  is  all.  When 
I  was  in  Dublin  I  went  to  the  lunacy  department  in  Dublin  Castle. 
I  was  given  a  great  deal  of  material  on  lunacy  in  Ireland,  and  in 
one  of  the  pamphlets  there  was  a  comment  on  the  fact  that  the 
Irish  in  America  contributed  the  highest  proportion  of  foreign-born 
to  American  insane  asylums,  and  there  was  a  comment  on  this  fact 
which  ran:  "As  to  why  this  should  be,  we  can  offer  no  reasoned 
explanation.  But  just  as  the  Irish  famine  was,  apart  from  its  direct 
effects,  responsible  for  so  much  physical  and  mental  distress  in  the 
country,  so  it  would  seem  not  improbable  that  the  unnutritious 
dietary  of  the  majority  of  the  population  of  the  country,  when  act- 
ing over  many  generations,  has  acted  on  the  nervous  system,  and  in 
this  way  has  developed  those  neuropathic  and  psychopathic  tenden- 
cies which  are  the  precursors  of  insanity." 

In  regard  to  tuberculosis,  I  was  given  a  good  deal  of  material  by 
Sir  William  Thompson,  Registrar  for  Ireland,  who  showed  me  that, 
according  to  the  pre-war  chart,  Ireland  slood  among  those  countries 
of  Europe  which  had  the  greatest  amount  of  tuberculosis.  She  was 
fourth  on  the  mortality  list,  being  exceeded  only  by  Austria,  Hun- 


455 

gary,  and  Serbia.  During  the  war  her  mortality  was  very  high.  It 
jumped  from  9,387  per  hundred  thousand  in  1913  to  9,680  in  1917. 

The  low  vitality  in  Ireland  results  in  a  low  birth  rate.  Contrary 
to  what  is  generally  expected,  the  birth  rate  in  Ireland  is  not  high. 
Compared  with  Scotland,  for  instance,  the  birth  rate  from  1907 
to  1916  for  Scotland  in  average  number  of  babies  to  every  thousand 
people  was  29.5  per  cent.,  while  for  Ireland  it  was  22.8  per  cent. 

Dublin  has  suffered  a  very  alarming  increase  in  death  rate,  which 
is  noted  in  the  newspaper  material  that  I  am  leaving  with  the 
Commission  with  the  rest  of  my  material. 

Poverty  and  low  vitality  also  results  in  insanity.  It  also  means 
illiteracy,  for  a  good  many  children  have  to  go  to  work  rather  than 
to  school.  H.  C.  Ferguson,  head  of  the  Charity  Organization  Society 
in  Dublin,  says  that  in  Ireland  60  per  cent,  of  the  children  below 
the  age  of  fourteen  and  able  to  work  are  at  work.  In  Scotland, 
which  has  virtually  the  same  population  as  Ireland,  there  are  only 
37,500  children  employed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  not  they  have  the  same  child- 
labor  laws  in  Ireland  as  in  the  United  Kingdom? 

A.  No.  There  was  an  Irish  Education  Act  passed  in  1872,  and 
this  permits  many  exceptions.  Education  is  not  compulsory  in  Ire- 
land if  a  child  can  be  put  to  work. 

A  DAY'S  MARAUDING  BY  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Senator  Walsh:  I  must  suspend  now,  for  I  must  leave,  but  before 
I  go  I  would  like  to  read  into  the  record  a  letter  which  I  have  just 
received  from  Reverend  George  F.  Marshall,  of  North  Wallingford. 
Massachusetts : 

"Dear  Sir:  A  letter  received  from  Ireland  a  few  clays  ago  is 
responsible  for  my  corresponding  with  you  now.  The  letter  was 
written  on  November  22nd.  The  inclosed  is  part  of  the  letter.  I 
have  made  no  change  in  punctuation  or  spelling.  It  came  from  no 
solicitation  on  my  part.  I  know  that  the  writer  is  an  absolutely 
reliable  person.  He  says  that  people  going  along  the  roads  hear 
the  order  to  halt.  If  you  stand  you  will  be  beaten  brutally.  If 
you  run,  you  will  be  shot.  This  means  that  a  lot  of  Black-and- 
Tans  scour  the  country  roads  on  raiding  parties.  Their  victims 
are  chiefly  people  whom  they  meet  or  overtake  on   the  roads. 

"The  following  is  from  a  letter  written  from  Ireland  dated  No- 
vember 22,  1920:  'The  country  is  in  an  awful  state  at  present.  1 
will  give  you  one  day's  work  of  the  force  that  is  known  as  the 
Black-and-Tars.     On  the  week  before  last  they  left  Tralee  and  came 


456 

by  Ballyfinnane  and  beat  everybody  at  the  creamery  most  brutally; 
went  on  to  Fieries  and  burned  Champion  Sullivan's  hay  shed,  on  to 
Farranfore  and  burned  the  hotel  to  the  ground,  then  to  Ballyhar 
and  Currans  and  burned  three  farm  houses  and  hay  sheds.  On 
their  return  burned  Mike  Kelleher's  hay  shed  at  Glanbane.  Shot 
young  Sughreel  working  at  the  railway.  Shot  every  donkey  they 
met  dead,  and  carried  off  all  the  fowl  they  met  and  Katy  Lynch's 
five  geese.  Went  on  to  Farmers  Bridge  and  at  the  old  school  took 
young  Hoffman  out  of  his  car  and  shot  him  dead  on  the  road.  That 
is  one  day's  work.  Since  then  there  is  two  shot  in  Ballymacelligott 
and  several  wounded.  On  yesterday  the  military  fired  on  some 
youngsters  at  the  old  castle,  wounding  Thorn  Price's  son  and  young 
Sullivan  of  the  Railway  Gates.'  " 

Commissioner  Walsh:  I  submit  the  letter  for  whatever  weight  the 
Commission  may  wish  to  give  this  evidence.  I  have  similar  letters 
sent  to  me  which  I  do  not  happen  to  have  with  me  at  this  moment. 

SENTIMENT  FOR  REPUBLIC  ALMOST   UNIVERSAL 

Q.  I  have  one  question  that  some  present  have  wanted  to  have 
asked.  I  expect  it  might  better  be  asked  from  some  responsible 
Irish  leader,  but  I  am  sure  we  would  be  glad  to  have  your  views. 
By  self-determination  what  is  meant,  an  Irish  Republic  and  nothing 
else,  or  a  greater  degree  than  at  present  of  self-government  in 
Ireland? 

A.  By  self-determination  they  mean  the  right  of  the  people  to 
declare  what  form  of  government  they  want. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  is  the  sentiment  which  you  discovered 
in  your  investigations  in  Ireland  for  a  Republic  or  for  a  greater 
measure  of  home  rule? 

A.     For  a  republic,  I  would  say. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  How  universal  is  that? 

A.     It  is  almost  universal. 

Q.  Is  the  present  political  line-up  in  Ireland  confined  almost 
entirely  to  the  forces  for  the  Republic  and  the  forces  for  the  present 
condition  of  union  with  England?  That  is,  has  the  party  which  we 
once  knew  as  the  Home  Rule  Party  been  obliterated  from  the  scene, 
and  the  forces  we  have  now  are  on  the  one  hand,  the  Republicans, 
and  on  the  other  the  Unionists — that  is,  those  who  still  adhere  to 
the  union  with  England? 

A.  Yes.  I  knew  of  one  man  who  belonged  to  the  old  Redmond 
Party  who  was  going  to  a  meeting;  and  he  said  he  didn't  know  why 
he  was  going,  because  it  was  the  only  party  in  Ireland  that  had  no 
power  at  all. 


\y, 


ENGLAND'S     OPPOSITION     TO     IRISH     INDEPEND- 
ENCE PRIMARILY  DUE  TO  ECONOMIC  MOTIVES 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Dr.  Howe  asked  you  a  very  interesting  ques- 
tion a  few  moments  ago.  That  is  as  to  what  predominated  in  the 
minds  of  the  public  men  of  England,  the  political,  economic,  or 
religious  argument  against  Irish  independence.  I  don't  want  to  ask- 
too  pertinent  a  question,  but  is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  economic  argu- 
ment is  the  dominant  one,  and  the  political  and  religious  arguments 
are  used  to  bolster  up,  to  prevent  any  change? 

A.     I  think  the  political  is  dominant  before  the  public. 

Q.  I  know;  but  what  is  the  reason  that  the  political  leaders  of 
England  are  opposed  to  a  Republic.  They  say  they  are  opposed 
to  the  independence  of  Ireland,  and  then  you  ask  them  why,  and 
they  bolster  up  their  arguments  by  economic  and  religious  facts. 

A.     I  think  the  real  reason  is  chiefly  economic. 

Q.      I  don't  think  you  get  my  inquiry,  do  you? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  I  understand  it.  I  think  the  objection  to  giving 
Ireland  her  independence  is  primarily  economic. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  in  economic  you  would  include  all  the 
questions  about  the  rights  and  wrongs  of  protecting  England's  army 
and  navy? 

A.     Yes,  and  the  sources  of  her  food  supply. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  but  political  considerations  like 
the  breaking  up  of  the  Empire,  and  that  Ireland  would  be  used  for 
a  military  base,  come  in,  do  they  not? 

A.  Yes,  they  come  in.  That  is  part  of  the  question.  But  I  think 
that  the  gentleman  who  asked  the  question  asked  for  my  opinion, 
and  my  opinion  is  that  the  economic  consideration  is  fundamental. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  not  the  question  of  the  breaking  up  of  the 
Empire — has  not  that  question  an  economic  phase?  Is  not  there 
an  economic  interest  on  the  part  of  Great  Britain  in  the  preservation 
of  the  Empire? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  And  there  is  also  what  is  called  the 
glory  side. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  After  all,  the  political  issues,  such  as 
a  military  base,  and  all  the  subjects  which  are  interrelated  with 
each  other,  would  come  back  to  the  economic  issue. 

A.     Yes. 


458 

Q.     I  think  you  would  find  the  economic  foundation  responsible 
for  the  question. 
A.     Yes. 

EXPLOITATION  OF  CHILD  LABOR 

Q.  Now,  I  would  like  to  ask  another  question.  You  saw  the 
children  working  in  Ireland.  I  would  like  to  know,  have  you  any 
idea  how  young  some  of  those  children  are  who  are  exploited  there? 

A.  I  knew  a  girl  who  belonged  to  the  National  University  in 
Ireland,  who  was  interested  in  a  club  for  these  children  in  Dublin, 
who  told  me  of  a  little  news  girl  who  was  six  years  old  who 
attended  the  club. 

Q.     She  only  worked  as  a  news  girl? 

A.  Yes.  Now,  in  parts  of  Ireland  the  children  go  to  these  hiring 
fairs  and  sell  their  services  too.  They  go  as  young  as  nine  years 
old.  I  know  of  one  person  who  went  when  he  was  nine  years  old 
to  a  hiring  fair  and  was  employed  for  three  months  at  $15. 

Q.     $15  a  month? 

A.     No,  $15  for  the  three  months. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Was  he  allowed  to  do  so  because  his 
mother  was  a  widow?  That  would  be  an  exception  to  the  child- 
labor  law. 

A.  This  was  under  the  Irish  Educational  Act,  that  permits  a 
child  who  is  two  miles  away  from  a  school  not  to  attend  school. 
But  he  can  work. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  many  hours  are  they  required 
to  attend  school? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.     Do  they  work  at  night? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

SCANT   PROSPERITY   AMONG  FARMERS  AND 
TENANTS 

Q.  Another  question  about  these  farms,  describing  how  they 
live  in  their  cottages.  As  a  rule,  what  is  the  acreage  of  these  farms? 
Are  they  large  farms  and  these  men  tenants  on  them,  or  are  they 
small  farms? 

A.     You  mean  the  farm  laborers? 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  those  people  who  lived  in  those  one-room 
cottages.     How  much  ground  do  they  till? 

A.     They  were  tenants  around  Donegal. 


459 

Q.     They  were  working  for  someone  who  owned  the  farm  land? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Did  yon  have  any  experience  with  the  independent  farmer 
who  owned  his  own  land  and  his  own  home  and  tilled  his  own  soil? 

A.  Well,  a  great  many  of  those  are  not  wholly  independent  yet. 
They  are  paying  on  their  farms. 

Q.     Their  land  is  covered  with  a  mortgage? 

A.  Yes.  Of  course,  as  I  said,  they  were  prosperous  during  the 
war  years. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Relatively  prosperous? 

A.  Yes.  There  was  a  big  demand  for  agricultural  products 
during  the  war,  and  then  they  were  relatively  prosperous.  But  as 
I  said  a  little  while  ago.  this  prosperity  was  due  to  die,  according 
to  Professor  Smith,  Professor  of  Economics  at  Cork  University — 
this  prosperity  was  due  to  die  in  about  two  years. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the 
fertility  of  the  soil  in  Ireland? 

A.  It  varies  with  the  sections.  The  northwest  is  a  very  stony 
country.  Huge  holdings  sell  for  a  few  dollars.  In  one  of  Lionel 
Smith-Gordon's  books  he  tells  of  a  large  holding  in  Donegal  that 
sold  for  $10. 

Q.     Would  not  that  land  be  good  for  grazing  purposes? 

A.  No.  The  scrawny  cattle  you  see  there  would  answer  that. 
The  soil  there  has  to  be  hand  spaded  on  account  of  the  boulders  in 
the  soil.  And  it  is  so  unfertile  that  it  is  necessary  for  the  farmers 
to  drag  the  seaweed,  the  kelp  from  the  ocean,  when  the  tide  is  out, 
and  put  it  in  these  big  rush  baskets,  and  put  this  kelp  in  the  furrows 
of  the  soil  there.  They  either  do  that  or  have  to  go  to  the  expense 
of  buying  artificial  fertilizer. 

Q.     That  is  only  true  of  certain  sections  of  Ireland? 

A.     It  is  true  in  the  northwest.     It  is  true  in  Sligo. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  about  the  Gal  way  district?  Is  that 
the  same  there? 

A.     Yes,  largely. 

Q.     Are  these  home-owning  farmers  Republicans  too? 

A.     Yes,  from  the  election  returns  they  must  be. 

Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Manly,  are  you  through?  Are  there  any 
other  questions  you  wish  to  ask,  Miss  Addams? 

Commissioner  Addams:  No. 


460 

A  WEALTHY  PROTESTANT  SINN  FEINER 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  One  thing  more  about  this  Mr.  Bar- 
ton you  spoke  of.     What  was  his  position  over  there? 

A.  He  was  a  Protestant  landowner  there,  and  had  a  large  estate 
near  Glengariff. 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  he  held  some  military 
position? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  in  the  British  army. 

Q.     In  the  British  army? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  what  is  his  position  in  the  Republic? 

A.     He  is  a  member  of  the  Irish  Parliament. 

Q.     A  member  of  the  Irish  Parliament? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Elected  by  whom? 

A.     Elected  by  the  Sinn  Feiners. 

Q.     He  is  a  Protestant? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Elected  by  the  Sinn  Feiners.  Naturally  he  must  be  for  the 
Republic  then? 

A.     Yes. 

LITTLE  CRIME  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Chairman  Howe :  Miss  Russell,  you  have  quite  obviously  been 
investigating  economic  and  social  conditions  there.  Did  you  make 
any  investigations  into  crime  and  vice  in  Ireland? 

A.  I  was  in  Limerick  when  they  had  the  big  strike  in  the  spring 
of  1919.  At  night  the  city  was  in  complete  darkness  on  account  of 
the  striking  of  even  the  people  who  were  connected  with  the  manu- 
facture of  light.  And  the  force  of  constables  changed  from  six 
hundred  constables  who  were  employed  during  the  day  to  the  night 
watch.  I  think  Limerick  is  the  only  city  in  the  British  Isles  which 
retains  the  old  custom  of  the  night  watch.  And  I  was  told  by  a 
journalist  in  Limerick  that  there  were  only  sixty  members  of  this 
night  watch  who  took  the  place  of  these  six  hundred  constables 
during  the  day.  When  the  courts  were  held  there  was  no  extra  case 
of  crime  listed  from  Limerick  during  that  period.  Ordinarily  with 
a  city  in  darkness,  the  people  excited,  and  hungry  from  strike  fare, 
you  would  think  there  would  be  an  increase  in  petty  crime.  But  the 
records  do  not  show  it. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Some  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  who 
were  on  the  witness  stand  last  week  said  that  on  their  details  through- 


461 

out  Ireland  they  had  never  had  any  murder  cases  come  under  their 
notice,  or  arson,  burglary,  or  any  of  the  major  crimes.  The  most 
they  had  come  under  their  attention  in  years  of  service  had  been 
petty  misdemeanors  and  brawls.  They  gave  the  Commission  the 
impression  that  there  was  little  crime  in  Ireland — very  little  crime. 
Did  your  investigation  cover  that  matter?     Have  you  any  statistics? 

A.  No,  I  haven't  any  statistics  on  the  subject.  I  know  that  the 
Countess  of  Aberdeen,  in  a  magazine  called  The  Child,  in  an  article 
published  in  1911.  told  of  the  social  conditions  in  Dublin  and  the 
great  stress  that  people  were  under  for  just  the  means  of  existence. 
And  she  said  that  it  was  remarkable  that  there  was  very  little  crime 
to  get  what  the  people  need,  and  that  there  ought  to  be  a  greater 
stimulus  among  philanthropic  people  to  give  to  these  people  than 
there  had  been  evidence  of. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  ^t  ou  mean  that  under  starvation 
pressure,  there  still  had  been  very  little  crime? 

A.     Under  starvation  pressure,  exactly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  lived  for  a  time  among  the  slums  of  Dublin, 
and  also  were  around  among  the  people  in  all  hours  of  the  day 
and  night  in  other  sections? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  How  did  the  general  condition  of  the  streets  compare  with 
the  condition  of  the  streets  in  New  York,  Chicago,  and  other  Amer- 
ican cities  during  the  same  hours  of  the  day  and  night?  Did  you 
feel  safe  there? 

A.  I  felt  perfectly  safe.  I  walked  from  the  telegraph  office  in 
Limerick  at  two  o'clock  in  the  morning  through  perfectly  black 
streets  to  my  hotel.  I  inquired  the  direction  several  times,  and  was 
finally  assisted  to  my  hotel  by  a  member  of  the  Black  Watch.  But 
there  was  no  interference  with  my  progress  at  all. 

Q.  Was  there  at  any  time  while  you  were  in  Ireland  any  inter- 
ference or  any  personal  assault  or  any  pickpockets  at  all,  in  your 
experience? 

A.  No.  I  only  had  one  unpleasant  experience  while  I  was  in 
Ireland.  It  was  about  three  o'clock  in  the  morning  in  a  railroad 
station;  but  that  was  all. 

Q.     What  station  was  that? 

A.     At  Galway. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  material  on  the  cooperative 
movement,  on  cooperative  dairies  and  creameries,  that  you  could 
submit  to  the  Commission? 

A.     Yes,  I  have,  Mr.  Howe.     You  mean  with  me? 

Chairman  Howe:  Yes, 


462 

The  Witness:  I  have  the  pamphlet  on  cooperation  with  me,  which 
I  can  give  to  the  Commission,  and  you  are  quite  welcome  to  it. 
Q.     The  Secretary  has  your  address,  has  he  not? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.     Is  there  anything  further  that  you  want  to  add,  Miss  Russell? 
A.     No,  Mr.  Howe. 
(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  LAURENCE 
GINNELL,  T.  D. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  will  adjourn,  then,  until  two  o'clock  this 
afternoon,  when  Mr.  Ginnell  will  testify.  I  shall  state  what  I  know 
of  him  from  memory.  Also  Miss  Addams — Miss  Addams,  you  state 
what  you  know  about  him. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Mr.  Ginnell,  you  were  a  member  of 
Parliament  for  a  number  of  years. 

Mr.  Laurence  Ginnell:  For  eleven  years,  until  I  resigned  in  1918. 

Chairman  Howe:  Then  you  were  elected? 

Mr.  Ginnell :  Yes,  I  was  elected. 

Chairman  Howe:  So  that  you  are  a  member  of  the  Irish  Parlia- 
ment? 

Mr.  Ginnell :  Yes,  I  am  a  member  of  the  Irish  Parliament  and  the 
Irish  Cabinet.  I  am  a  member  of  the  Irish  Parliament  and  the 
English   Parliament. 

Chairman  Howe:  At  two  o'clock,  Mr.  Ginnell.  Or  would  you  like 
to  proceed  now,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

Mr.  Ginnell :  I  am  afraid  I  have  a  bigger  task  in  front  of  me  than 
I  thought  when  I  left  Chicago. 

Chairman  Howe:  Would  you  like  to  come  on  now,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

Mr.  Ginnell:  It  will  be  all  right  with  me.     Any  time. 

Chairman  Howe:  Very  well.  We  will  adojurn,  then,  until  two 
o'clock. 

(Adjournment  12:52  P.  M.) 

2:12  P.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  reconvene.  The  first  witness 
is  Mr.  Laurence  Ginnell  of  Chicago.  I  have  asked  Mr.  Ginnell  to 
make  his  own  biographical  statement.  Make  it  as  full  as  possible, 
Mr.  Ginnell,  because  it  is  closely  identified  with  recent  Irish  history. 
So  if  you  will,  suppress  your  modesty,  Mr.  Ginnell,  and  tell  us 
about  yourself. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Will  you  not  sit,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

The  Witness:  I  have  to  make  a  preliminary  statement  before  I 


463 

give  any  evidence.  I  have  no  intention  of  making  any  personal  bio- 
graphical statement  at  all — not  as  a  matter  of  disagreement.  1  only 
state  the  fact. 

Secondly.  I  thought  that  this  Commission  arose  from  recent  events 
in  Ireland;  that  the  kind  of  evidence  which  1  forwarded  to  the 
Commission  a  while  ago  would  hardly  be  considered  by  them  worth 
while,  having  been  cast  in  the  shade  by  more  recent  events  in  Ire- 
land of  a  much  more  dramatic  character.  It  -was  only  yestei  <la\ 
upon  my  arrival  that  I  learned  you  wanted  a  background  for  present 
events.  Then  I  set  to  work  to  make  a  background  of  the  situation, 
which  I  will  submit  to  you.  It  has  cost  me  hard  work  since  my 
arrival  yesterday  morning.  I  am  going  to  submit  it,  and  shall  be 
glad  if  the  Commission  one  and  all  will  take  the  utmost  liberty 
with  me  to  talk  over  and  ask  me  with  reference  to  anything  at  all 
regarding  Ireland.  Because  so  far  as  my  knowledge  goes,  it  is  quiie 
on  the  surface  and  ready  to  be  tapped.  I  do  not  know  very  much 
about  statistics,  because  I  have  been  too  busy  a  man  to  give  special 
attention  to  that  branch  of  the  subject.  Consequently,  if  I  am  some- 
what defective  speaking  for  myself,  I  will  try  to  make  up  for  that 
by  indisputable  authorities  on  these  matters. 

WITNESS  REFUSES  TO  TESTIFY  IF  EVIDENCE  BE 

USED  TO  QUESTION  STATUS  OF  REPUBLICAN 

GOVERNMENT 

Before  I  can  begin  on  any  branch  of  the  subject,  I  must  make  an 
allegation.     Among  the  things  I  was  told  yesterday  was — 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Ginnell,  can  we  first  get  a  little  of  the 
biography? 

A.  I  cannot  go  into  this  thing  unless  I  am  allowed  to  state  the 
conditions.  The  evidence  I  have  to  give  you  is  at  your  disposal 
only  on  the  condition  that  it  is  not  to  be  made  use  of  in  any 
recommendations  regarding  Ireland.  We  in  Ireland  have  settled 
our  own  government  on  the  basis  of  your  President's  own  state- 
ments. We  have  applied  the  right  of  self-determination  to  our  own 
country.  Indeed,  I  will  not  go  behind  the  present  status  of  the 
Republican  Government  in  Ireland  today.  Indeed,  I  will  not  give 
any  evidence  whatever  unless  I  am  assured  that  no  effort  will  be 
made  to  go  behind  the  Irish  Republican  Government,  the  only  con- 
stitutional government  in  Ireland  today.  And  to  attempt  to  discuss 
the  right  of  Ireland  to  her  independence  is  to  attempt  to  re-establish 
the  English  Government  where  she  has  lost  all   power  and  respect 


164 

whatsoever.  If  I  get  the  assurance  that  that  is  not  your  intention, 
then  I  will  sit  down  and  begin  my  evidence  immediately. 

Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Ginnell,  this  Commission  is  a  Commission 
to  ascertain  facts  as  well  as  possible  about  conditions  in  Ireland. 
It  is  not  a  Commission  with  official  authority,  and  up  to  date  has 
not  made  any  recommendations  of  any  kind:  And  it  is  not  a 
Commission  that  has  any  power  beyond  giving  publicity  to  all  the 
facts  reported  to  it  by  responsible  witnesses. 

Mr.  Ginnell:  The  point  is  whether  the  evidence  I  give  today  is  to 
be  used  in  any  way  to  upset  the  present  Republican  Government  in 
Ireland  and  re-establish  the  discredited  English  Government. 
Whether  I  begin  or  not  depends  on  whether  I  get  that  assurance 
or  not.  If  I  am  assured  that  my  evidence  will  not  be  used  to  upset 
the  present  government  and  re-establish  England — if  I  get  that 
assurance,  I  begin.     If  I  do  not,  I  shut  up. 

Chairman  Howe:  You  mean  to  recommend  or  suggest  in  our 
findings? 

Mr.  Ginnell :  To  recommend  in  any  way.  You  see,  I  am  a  citizen 
of  the  Irish  Government.  It  would  be  traitorous  on  my  part  to  put 
any  evidence  before  an  American  body  if  that  evidence  would  be 
used  to  bargain  with  the  enemy.  The  enemy  is  out  to  discredit  us. 
He  shall  never  be  re-established.  He  shall  never  be  re-established. 
I  begin  now  if  I  get  that  assurance. 

Chairman  Howe:  Our  only  purpose  is  to  give  publicity  to  the 
evidence  as  it  is  presented,  and  to  put  it  into  some  logical  form. 
Other  than  that  the  Commission  has  no  definite  purpose,  as  far  as 
it  has  adopted  a  purpose. 

Mr.  Ginnell :  This  little  hitch  was  caused  by  something  that  was 
said  to  me  yesterday  morning:  Will  we  accept  dominion  home  rule? 
I  will  not  discuss  any  such  offer. 

Chairman  Howe:  We  are  not  discussing  dominion  home  rule. 

Mr.  Ginnell:  Very  well.     I  thank  you,  sir.     I  thank  you. 

Chairman  Howe:  You  see,  Mr.  Ginnell,  we  are  not  discussing 
foreign  government  at  all. 

Mr.  Ginnell :  I  was  told  something  different  yesterday — that  this 
evidence  might  be  used  for  negotiation.  We  will  never  negotiate, 
never,  never,  except  as  between  nation  and  nation.  That  must  be 
quite  clear.     I  had  better  begin. 

A  MEMBER  OF  PARLIAMENT  ELEVEN  YEARS 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Ginnell,  you  are  an  Irishman? 
A.     Yes. 


465 

Q.      Of  Irish  birth? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  is  your  homey 

A.     County  West  Meath. 

Q.     You  have  been   identified  with   Irish  public  life? 

A.     Always. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country? 

A.     Since  the  first  of  last  July. 

Q.     Prior  to  that,  what  was  your  previous  position  in  Ireland? 

A.  A  prisoner  was  my  occupation  for  several  years,  except  for 
short  instances. 

Q.     You  were  in  the  British  Parliament? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     When  were  you  elected? 

A.  I  have  been  for  eleven  years  actually  a  member  of  the 
British  Parliament;  but  for  twenty  years  in  London  before  that 
living  in  Westminster. 

Q.  And  during  that  preceding  period  you  were  interested  in  or 
identified  with  political  activities? 

A.     Always. 

Q.     What  is  your  business  or  profession? 

A.  I  am  a  barrister  of  the  English  bar  and  of  the  Irish  bar. 
But  I  have  been  too  active  in  political  life  to  practice.  I  am  a 
qualified  member  of  both  bars. 

Q.     And  you  have  been  in  this  country  now  for — 

A.     Four  months — four  and  a  half  months. 

Chairman  Howe:  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Ginnell.  Now 
proceed. 

REASONS   FOR   DISTRUSTING  ENGLISH 
PARLIAMENT 

The  Witness:  I  always  regarded  the  attendance  of  Irish  represen- 
tatives at  Westminster  as  worse  than  futile  in  practice,  and  only 
awaited  a  general  policy  of  withdrawal  to  withdraw  myself.  One 
member  withdrawing  could  produce  no  effect,  nor  could  two  or 
three.  Ten  or  twenty  would.  The  time  had  not  come.  I  had  con- 
stant and  conclusive  reasons  for  distrusting  all  English  parties  in 
the  House  of  Commons  in  all  matters  relating  to  Ireland.  To  give 
only  a  few  instances.  On  one  occasion — I  think  it  was  in  1907 — a 
motion  was  under  discussion  calling  upon  the  Government  to  allo- 
cate an  adequate  sum  of  money  out  of  the  excessive  taxes  drawn 
from  Ireland  for  arterial  drainage. 


466 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  For  what?  For  drainage? 
A.  For  arterial  drainage.  That  is,  the  deepening  of  some  of  the 
larger  rivers,  to  give  free  escape  to  their  waters  which,  dammed  up 
by  obstacles,  were  thrown  back  and  flooded  large  tracts  of  otherwise 
fertile  land,  destroying  crops  before  they  could  be  gathered  in,  and 
in  some  instances  driving  people  and  their  cattle  from  their  home- 
steads, delaying  cropping  for  the  next  season,  and  making  the  land 
less  productive.  The  drainage  of  these  submerged  lands  was  an 
urgent  work  of  a  character  which  would  pay  directly  for  itself  by 
the  increased  fertility  of  the  soil.  But  it  could  not  be  done  by  local 
effort  because  of  the  great  cost  and  because  of  the  length  of  the 
rivers,  passing  through  or  by  several  counties  and  local  districts, 
which  only  a  national  authority  could  bring  into  concurrence.  This 
obvious  duty  the  British  Government  never  exercised  because  it  did 
not  want  the  work  done,  and  because  it  did  not  want  to  spend  Irish 
money  on  an  Irish  improvement.  If  I  am  asked,  Can  I  give  any 
proof  that  such  was  England's  motive?  I  answer  yes.  On  the  occa- 
sion just  mentioned  in  1907,  on  a  motion  to  allocate  an  adequate 
sum  of  money  for  this  purpose,  all  the  Irish  members  in  the  House 
of  Commons  except  two  salaried  place-holders  supported  the  mo- 
tion— Orange  and  Green  united  supporting  the  motion;  but  it  was 
ignominiously  defeated  by  the  Liberal  government  then  in  office 
with  the  help  of  Tory  and  Liberal  representatives,  showing  that  all 
British  parties  are  allied  in  getting  all  they  can  and  holding  all 
they  get.  The  money  went  for  imperial  purposes  in  various  parts 
of  the  world,  and  the  Irish  people,  Unionists  as  well  as  Nationalists, 
in  Ulster  as  well  as  in  Munster,  Connaught,  and  Leinster,  were  left 
and  are  still  left  to  the  flooding  of  their  farms  and  homes.  To  this 
day  the  Presbyterian  farmers  along  the  River  Bann  in  Ulster,  as 
well  as  the  Catholic  farmers  along  the  Rivers  Suck  and  Shannon, 
are  victims  of  England's  greed. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  many  Irish  members  were  in  the 
British  Parliament? 

A.  .One  hundred  one  were  supposed  to  be  there,  but  the  average 
attendance  was  about  ninety. 

Q.     Out  of  six  hundred? 

A.  Yes.  All  the  Irish  members  on  that  day  walked  into  the  same 
lobby  to  have  Irish  money  allocated  for  this  purpose,  and  they  were 
all  beaten,  showing  that  under  the  best  conditions  Ireland  could 
have  no  hope  from  Westminster. 

Another  instance.  In  the  autumn  of  1915,  knowing  that  fuel 
would  be  scarce  and  expensive  as  the  war  continued,  I  formed  a 
powerful  committee  consisting  mostly  of  political  opponents  in  my 


467 

own  constituency  of  West  Meath  to  start  a  fuel  industry  on  a  large 
scale  on  the  peat  bogs  there.  The  machinery  for  this  purpose  being 
manufactured  only  in  Sweden,  we  were  refused  a  permit  to  import 
it.  and  the  project  was  effectively  killed.  Clearly  the  answer  given 
by  John  Burns,  a  Cabinet  minister,  to  Colonel  Warburton  on  the 
same  subject  was  still  in  force:  "Ireland  must  be  kept  to  agricul- 
ture." Coal  was  sold  in  West  Meath  for  twenty-three  shillings  a 
ton.  It  is  now  and  has  been  for  several  years  sold  in  West  Meath 
at  three  pounds  a  ton,  showing  what  a  large  profit  could  be  made 
out  of  this  one  industry  on  bog  land  which  was  unfit  for  any  indus- 
try except  this  one,  and  this  one  would  not  be  allowed  because  it 
would  compete  with  English  coal  in  Ireland. 

It  was  not  unknown  that  members  of  the  House  were  actually 
canvassed  by  their  respective  party  whips  to  hear  specified  speakers, 
and  canvassed  again  to  leave  their  seats  to  prevent  other  speakers 
being  heard.  Members  of  Congress  and  of  the  Senate  will  realize 
how  unfair  that  was.  On  one  occasion  an  English  member,  Mr. 
Joseph  King,  had  the  honesty  to  call  the  speaker's  attention  to  the 
fact  that  he  himself,  in  common  with  other  members,  had  been  can- 
vassed to  hear  a  statement  from  ministers  and  other  leaders  of  par- 
ties, and  also  canvassed  not  to  hear  me  speak  on  the  same  subject. 
The  speaker  professed  an  inability  to  act  in  such  a  situation  when 
members  of  parties,  acting  as  if  with  an  electric  button,  rose  and 
cleared  out  and  left  me  addressing  the  chair  alone;  whereas  a 
speaker  must  have  forty  members  or  he  cannot  proceed.  I  was 
standing  there  with  papers  in  my  hand  and  ready  to  speak,  while 
a  sand  glass  was  being  turned  and  running  empty,  measuring  the 
time  for  which  I  was  allowed  to  stand.  I  had  to  leave  the  House 
with  my  speech  in  my  hand  and  the  documents  to  support  it  in  my 
pockets.  The  members  of  the  House  had  been  canvassed  not  to 
hear  the  Irish  case  presented. 

BARBAROUS   CHEERING   OF   COMMONS   ON 
EXECUTION  OF  REPUBLICAN  LEADERS 

Again,  on  the  third  of  May,  1916,  all  parties  sprang  to  their  feet 
and  cheered  the  announcement  of  the  prime  minister  that  the  leaders 
of  the  Easter  Week  rebellion  had  been  executed.  This  was  a  direct 
contravention  of  the  stipulation  of  the  Hague  Convention  of  1907, 
Clause  C,  which  England  had  signed,  which  stated  that  people  which 
had  sprung  out  into  open  rebellion  should  not  be  treated  as  crimi- 
nals, but  should  be  treated  as  prisoners  of  war.     My  cry  of  Huns! 


468 

Huns!  on  this  occasion  referred  not  so  much  to  the  execution  as  t6 
the  cheering  of  all  parties  on  hearing  of.  the  execution. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Tell  us  something  more  about  that,  Mr. 
Ginnell.  Did  these  men  who  were  executed  take  part  in  the  Easter 
rebellion? 

A.  These  men  had  taken  part  in  the  Easter  Week  rebellion. 
They  were  patriots,  and  they  were  my  best  friends,  the  best  I  ever 
knew. 

Q.     Did  they  surrender? 

A.  Yes,  they  surrendered,  laid  down  their  arms,  and  were  pris- 
oners in  England's  hands.  And  the  fact  that  more  than  six  hundred 
members  in  the  House  of  Commons,  in  a  legislative  assembly  in  a 
civilized  country,  sprang  to  their  feet,  waving  their  handkerchiefs 
and  their  parliamentary  papers  like  that  (indicating  waving  with 
extended  arms)  and  cheering,  brought  up  to  my  mind  Dante's  de- 
scription of  hell,  and  I  considered  that  they  were  demons  and  that 
they  were  Huns.  I  shouted,  "Huns!  Huns!  Huns!"  These  men 
were  the  criminals  and  not  the  men  who  were  shot  at  that  time. 

Q.     Those  men  were  leaders  in  the  insurrection? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  leaders  in  the  insurrection. 

Q.     Just  enumerate  some  of  them. 

A.  The  chief,  Padraic  Pearse,  leader  of  the  Irish  schools.  His 
brother,  buried  in  quicklime  because  he  was  Padraic's  brother. 
James  Connolly  had  this  distinction :  he  was  shot  through  the  legs 
and  through  the  thigh,  wholly  unable  to  stand.  When  the  time  came 
for  his  execution,  the  military  doctors  told  the  English  authorities 
that  the  man  would  be  dead  in  three  hours.  They  would  not  wait 
for  the  man  to  die  in  three  hours.  They  wanted  to  have  the  satis- 
faction of  shooting  him.  He  was  wheeled  into  the  prison  yard  in  a 
barrow,  utterly  unable  to  stand.  Twenty  bullets  were  put  through 
him  at  close  range,  and  he  went  into  the  quicklime  like  the  rest. 

Q.     How  many  were  executed? 

A.     Sixteen. 

Q.     Altogether? 

A.     No,  two  or  three  at  a  time. 

Q.     On  different  days? 

A.     Yes,  on  different  days. 

When  Mr.  Asquith  announced  that  "Padraic  Pearse,  Thomas 
Clarke,  Joseph  MacDonagh,  and  John  MacDermott  were  shot  this 
morning,"  it  was  then  the  cheering  occurred.  And  these  men! 
Joseph  MacDonagh,  a  poet.  Thomas  Clarke,  a  man,  I  believe,  about 
seventy,  the  oldest  man  among  them.  John  MacDermott,  and  a  man 
named  Eamon  Kent.     I  forget  their  names  now. 


469 

Q,     Was  there  a  trial? 

A.     There  was  a  court-martial  trial. 

Q.     Was  it  public  or  private? 

A.     Private,  of  course,  private. 

Q.  Was  there  any  statement  made  by  the  prime  minister  in 
Parliament  other  than  that  they  were  executed? 

A.     No.     He  read  from  a  telegram.     That  was  all. 

Q.     Those  men  were  actively  interested  in  the  insurrection? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  Most  of  them  had  signed  the  proclamation  of  Irish 
independence,  except  young  Willie  Pearse,  brother  of  Padraic 
Pearse.  He  was  shot  because  he  was  his  brother.  And  Plunkett, 
the  son  of  Thomas  Plunkett.     He  was  a  poet.     They   were  artists. 

REPEATED    IMPRISONMENTS    FOR    PROTESTING 
IRISH  WRONGS 

My  own  first  imprisonment  was  on  Christmas  eve,  1907,  for  ad- 
vocating what  is  known  as  cattle  driving.  If  you  care  to  hear  any- 
thing about  cattle  driving  later  on,  it  will  be  more  in  place  than 
it  would  here.  In  1916,  while  still  a  member  of  the  British  House 
of  Commons,  I  was  imprisoned  in  England  for  having  succeeded  in 
writing  my  name  in  Gaelic  in  gaining  admission  to  Knutsford  jail 
to  visit  some  of  the  four  hundred  Irishmen  detained  there  for  trial. 
An  order  had  been  sent  to  all  the  prisons  in  which  Irish  prisoners 
were  detained  that  I  was  not  to  be  allowed  to  visit  them,  presumably 
because  I  was  calling  attention  to  their  treatment  in  the  House. 
And  I  was  imprisoned  because  I  was  compelled  by  this  order  to 
sign  my  name  in  Gaelic,  which  the  prison  guard  could  not  read,  in 
order  to  gain  admission  to  see  these  men. 

In  March,  1918,  I  was  again  arrested  and  sentenced  to  six  months 
for  trying  to  get  an  order  to  have  the  English  order  for  compulsory 
tillage  applied  to  all  the  large  holdings  as  well  as  the  small  farms. 
This  Compulsory  Tillage  Act  was  put  in  force  by  Orders  in  Council 
for  the  war.  These  Orders  in  Council  when  once  put  in  force 
assume  all  the  strength  of  an  Act.  The  Order  in  Council  issued  in 
Ireland  was  in  practice  applied  only  to  small  farmers  who  had 
always  been  accustomed  to  till  only  a  small  portion  of  their  lot. 
They  had  been  compelled  to  till  more,  while  large  grazing  tracts 
of  land  owned  by  men  who  did  not  reside  on  them  at  all — men  who 
gave  no  employment,  men  who  had  only  a  herder  and  his  dog  for 
a  tract  perhaps  of  a  thousand  acres — those  tracts  were  not  touched 
by  the  Order.  I  went  over  the  country  advocating  in  counties  espe- 
cially  where  such  tracts  existed   that  the  vouns:  men   in  the  neigh- 


470 

borhood  who  lived  on  poor  soil,  bogs  and  barren  hills,  should  go 
to  these  owners  and  offer  to  take  the  lands  over  and  take  them  at 
their  full  value  as  found  by  an  English  Government  land  valuer, 
in  accordance  with  the  Land  Purchase  system  then  in  operation. 
There  was  no  injustice,  but  there  was  popular  force.  But  no  injus- 
tice in  taking  the  land  from  a  man  who  does  not  reside  on  it,  but 
resides  perhaps  a  hundred  miles  or  more  away — no  injustice  in 
taking  the  land  from  him  and  paying  him  the  full  value  for  it,  in 
accordance  with  Government  inspection.  I  advised  these  young  men 
to  take  this  land,  and  the  money  would  be  provided  by  the  Govern- 
ment, as  per  the  existing  Land  Purchase  law.  And  if  the  owners 
refused,  or  if  anything  arose  to  prevent  those  men  in  getting  the 
land  on  these  equitable  terms,  to  go  in  on  the  land  and  plow  it  up 
and  make  it  useless  for  pasture.  That  advice  was  acted  upon  in 
several  instances.  The  owners  gave  way,  came  to  terms,  and  were 
very  glad  to  take  the  money.  In  other  instances  the  owner,  not 
residing  in  Ireland  at  all  but  in  England,  refused;  and  then  there 
was  trouble.  But  whether  trouble  or  not,  for  this  offense  I  was  sent 
to  jail  for  six  months. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Was  there  a  trial?  You  were  indicted  and 
tried? 

A.     Oh,  yes;  but  I  denied  the  right  of  the  court  to  try  me. 

Q.     Your  parliamentary  freedom  did  not  protect  you,  then? 

A.     No,  oh,  no. 

Q.     What  were  you  charged  with? 

A.  I  was  charged  with  unlawful  assembly,  a  very  common 
charge  in  my  case.  On  account  of  my  age  and  my  health,  I  was 
sent  to  the  hospital  part  of  the  prison.  But  otherwise  I  was  to  be 
treated  as  a  convict.  That  is,  to  get  no  visits,  no  books,  no  news- 
papers, or  anything  else  from  the  outer  world.  And  this  was  in 
direct  violation  of  the  agreement  come  to  a  few  months  before,  after 
Thomas  Ashe's  tragic  death,  an  agreement  between  the  Lord  Mayor 
of  Dublin,  Laurence  O'Neill,  the  Bishop  of  Belfast,  and  the  English 
Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland,  Mr.  Shortt.  An  agreement  was  come 
to  by  these  three  men  that  political  prisoners  should  be  allowed 
visits  and  allowed  letters.  An  attempt  was  made  to  break  that 
agreement  in  my  case.  I  at  once  went  on  hunger  strike,  absolutely 
refusing  to  take  food  and  drink  from  the  prison  authorities,  in  order 
to  obtain  the  treatment  that  had  been  promised  under  the  agreement. 
I  was  only  four  days  on  hunger  strike  when  through  the  influence 
of  the  prison  doctors  I  was  given  political  treatment.  Then  I  came 
off  my  strike. 

Having  spent  six  months  in   Mountjoy  prison   on  that   occasion, 


471 

my  sentence  expired  at  the  end  of  October,  1918.  The  prison  gale 
was  opened  only  wide  enough  to  allow  my  body  to  pass  through. 
Immediately  outside  was  the  door  end  of  a  prison  van,  into  which 
I  was  forced  to  walk.  I  could  just  see  my  wife  and  other  friends, 
who  had  come  to  greet  me,  but  I  was  not  allowed  near  them.  I  was 
forced  into  the  van  and  taken  to  Harbor  Hill  barracks  for  the 
evening,  when  I  was  taken  to  Reading  jail  in  England  without  any 
charge  or  any  reason  being  given  me  why  I  was  being  treated  as  a 
criminal.  This  did  not  surprise  me,  because  while  I  was  under- 
going my  imprisonment  in  Mountjoy,  many  Irishmen  had  been 
arrested  and  deported;  and  some  who  like  myself  were  serving 
sentences  of  imprisonment  were  taken  off  to  England  immediately 
upon  the  conclusion  of  their  sentences  without  any  warrant  or  charge 
proffered  against  them.  In  Reading  jail  I  found  about  thirty  Irish- 
men who  had  been  brought  over  without  trial  or  charges  of  any 
sort.  The  alleged  reason  was  a  German  plot  which  the  English 
authorities  said  they  had  discovered  in  Ireland  in  May,  1918. 

FORTY  IMPRISONED  IRISH  LEADERS  ELECTED  TO 
PARLIAMENT 

At  that  time  the  English  authorities,  Lord  French  and  Ian  Mac- 
Pherson,  were  determined  to  crush  the  Irish  people  like  "poisonous 
insects."  Mark  that  in  quotation  marks — "poisonous  insects."  The 
outgoing  officials  denied  that  there  was  anything  like  a  German  plot, 
and  no  one  was  ever  tried  for  any  complicity  in  it.  In  my  opinion 
the  real  motive  for  these  imprisonments  was  to  deprive  the  Irish 
people  of  any  leadership  or  advisers  for  the  forthcoming  parlia- 
mentary elections,  which  were  held  in  December,  1918.  The  object 
was  to  deprive  the  Irish  people  of  their  leaders  and  advisers  in 
order  that  they,  like  sheep  without  a  shepherd,  might  abandon  the 
Republican  cause.  The  result  was  different.  Forty  of  those  pris- 
oners in  England  without  trial  were  put  up  in  Ireland  as  parlia- 
mentary candidates  and  all  forty  were  returned  with  sweeping  ma- 
jorities. In  a  country  of  one  hundred  one  parliamentary  seats,  we 
won  seventy-three  notwithstanding  our  imprisonment — a  greater 
majority  than  any  country,  this  or  any  other  country  just  emerging 
from  bondage,  has  ever  had  at  the  start. 

SUFFERINGS  OF  IRISH  POLITICAL  PRISONERS 

During  that  winter  we  all  suffered  severely  from  cold  and  bad 
food.  When  the  temperature  was  lowest,  the  little  heat  that  we  had 
been  previously  enjoying  was  cut  off,  so  that  the  backs  of  my  hands 


472 

and  fingers  became  black  and  hard  and  cracked  deeply,  and  finally 
the  entire  skin  peeled  off.  That  was  very  painful.  Others  suffered 
in  other  ways.  The  health  of  all  was  injured.  Imprisonment  in  an 
English  prison,  or  imprisonment  in  any  prison  ruled  by  England, 
is  no  joke.  It  is  hard  for  people  to  realize  it.  In  my  first  imprison- 
ment ten  years  earlier,  which  I  have  mentioned,  although  I  was 
allowed  food  and  all  of  the  comforts  from  outside,  and  was  supplied 
with  them,  all  that  did  not  prevent  the  depressing  effect  of  the 
prison  on  my  whole  system.  The  monotony  of  the  place:  nothing 
but  white  walls  to  look  at;  nobody  to  speak  to;  nobody  to  visit  you; 
always  alone.  All  this  thing  has  a  terribly  depressing  effect.  I 
should  have  mentioned  that  in  that  imprisonment  of  1907  I  was 
imprisoned  for  six  months  without  a  trial  in  the  ordinary  sense.  It 
is  the  usual  course,  and  that  is  why  I  thought  it  scarcely  worth 
mentioning.  I  advocated  at  that  time  cattle  driving,  which  was 
mainly  with  reference  to  driving  cattle  off  large  unoccupied  tracts 
of  land  so  that  they  might  be  used.  For  the  offense  of  cattle  driving 
there  is  a  civil  remedy.  The  owner  of  the  land  or  cattle  may 
prosecute  you  or  sue  for  trespass  or  damages.  No  owner  ever  sued 
me  for  such  a  cause,  although  I  gave  plenty  of  them  occasion  for 
doing  so.  In  one  particular  estate  I  had  dealt  with,  without  my 
knowing  it  the  estate  was  in  chancery  under  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
Court  of  Chancery.  The  judge  of  that  court,  Judge  Ross,  still  on 
the  bench,  did  not  summon  me  to  a  trial.  I  was  never  tried  nor 
asked  to  attend  for  trial.  He  treated  the  matter  as  contempt  of 
court,  with  which  in  Ireland  a  judge  can  deal  at  his  discretion. 
His  discretion  was  to  sentence  me  to  six  months'  imprisonment — 
in  my  absence  and  untried.  My  health  broke  down,  and  at  the  end 
of  four  months  the  prison  doctors  became  alarmed  that  I  was  going 
to  die.  I  was  then  released,  and  it  took  me  six  to  eight  months 
more  to  recover  my  normal  health. 

At  the  end  of  March,  1919,  I  and  all  the  untried  prisoners  in 
England  were  released.  On  my  release  I  went  to  a  meeting  of  my 
constituency  in  Athlone  to  thank  them  for  re-electing  me  in  my 
absence  in  prison.  Without  notice  or  warning  of  any  kind,  the  hall 
in  which  the  meeting  was  to  be  held  was  occupied  by  the  military. 
Not  being  able  to  enter  the  hall,  we  attempted  to  hold  the  meeting 
on  the  public  square  in  the  town.  The  military  promptly  came 
along  with  rifles  and  bayonets  and  scattered  the  meeting,  running 
over  poor  old  women  and  children  who  were  unable  to  get  out  of 
their  way  with  sufficient  speed.  For  having  attempted  to  address 
this  meeting  I  was  arrested  at  the  railroad  station  in  Dublin  at  the 
end  of  May,  1919.     In  the  heat  of  the  sun  I  was  brought  handcuffed 


473 

from  Dublin  to  Mullingar,  fifty  miles,  in  a  military  lorry,  sur- 
rounded by  soldiers  with  rifles,  and  followed  and  preceded  by  simi- 
lar lorries  similarly  filled.  My  face  and  hands  were  covered  with 
dust,  and  I  was  exhausted  by  thirst.  I  was  brought  back  to  my  own 
county,  to  the  people  who  had  elected  me,  handcuffed  as  a  criminal, 
for  attempting  to  thank  them  for  having  elected  me.  It  was  only 
through  the  personal  kindness  of  a  policeman  that  I  was  able  to 
get  a  drink  of  milk  for  the  day — the  only  thing  I  had  until  I  got  to 
Mountjoy  prison  the  next  morning.  I  was  sentenced  by  an  English- 
paid  magistrate  to  four  months  for  unlawful  assembly. 

On  every  prison  door  there  is  a  card  bearing  the  crime  for  which 
the  person  is  sentenced.  The  card  on  my  door  stated  that  my  crime 
was  unlawful  assembly,  the  unlawful  assembly  being  the  attempt  to 
thank  those  who  had  elected  me  while  I  was  in  prison  in  England. 

My  health  began  to  give  way  completely,  although  in  comparison 
to  what  other  political  prisoners  had  suffered,  I  had  nothing  to  com- 
plain of.  The  doctor  had  ordered  me  to  have  daily  baths,  and  when 
I  went  into  the  bathroom  one  morning  I  found  a  low  criminal  who 
occupied  the  cell  next  to  mine  pouring  the  contents  of  his  pot — the 
worst  smelling  thing  I  ever  knew  of — into  my  bath.  I  complained 
to  the  governor  of  the  prison,  but  without  any  effect. 

INDISCRIMINATE  RAIDS  AND  ARRESTS 

A  week  before  my  time  was  up  my  health  broke  down  most 
seriously,  and  I  was  released  on  that  account.  I  went  to  the  Isles 
of  Aran  to  recover  my  health,  and  took  no  part  whatever  in  politics, 
being  wholly  unable  to  do  so.  In  March,  1920,  I  returned  to  my 
house  in  Dublin,  intending  to  stay  there  just  a  few  days.  One  day 
I  went  to  the  National  Library  to  get  Zimmer's  German  book  on 
'The  Irish  Element  in  Mediaeval  Culture,"  as  harmless  a  book  as 
anyone  could  imagine.  That  night  at  ten  o'clock  the  house  was 
surrounded  by  military,  and  after  a  thorough  search  lasting  two 
hours,  I  was  taken  away  to  prison.  By  this  time  the  curfew  law 
was  put  into  force,  and  night  raids  were  of  quite  common  occur- 
rence. With  all  civilians  barred  off  the  streets  by  the  curfew,  the 
military  and  the  police  carried  on  their  work  of  terrorizing  the 
people.  When  a  house  was  raided,  all  the  males  in  the  house  were 
swept  off  to  prison,  whether  they  were  connected  with  the  Repub- 
lican movement  or  not;  so  that  it  was  not  safe  for  the  sons  of  the 
family  to  sleep  at  home  nights,  or  even  to  sleep  in  the  same  house 
two  nights  in  succession.  I  found  one  man  in  Mountjoy  last  March 
because  his  son.  who  was  wanted,  was  not  at  home;  so  they  put  in 


474 

the  father.  Failing  to  find  the  man  they  want,  they  shoot  his 
brother.  This  man  was  released,  however,  after  a  few  days  on 
account  of  his  health,  without  prejudice  to  future  committal,  as  the 
prison  governor  was  instructed  to  inform  him.  I  left  behind  me 
many  men  who  had  been  swept  up  on  night  raids  without  any 
charge  or  trial  or  prospect  of  one.  People  have  come  to  regard 
raids  and  arrests  as  the  normal  order  of  things. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Of  what  date  are  you  speaking  now? 

A.     This  year. 

Q.     What  month? 

A.     March,  last  March. 

DUBLIN  IN  A  STATE  OF  MILITARY  SIEGE 

The  streets  were  filled  with  fully  armed  soldiers  marching  about 
with  fixed  bayonets  and  bombs  hanging  at  their  belts.  Often  tanks, 
even  in  the  daytime,  rolled  along.  Aeroplanes  hovered  over  the 
city  of  Dublin  incessantly.  There  were  soldiers  at  the  railroad 
stations  and  at  most  of  the  bridges  leading  into  the  city.  The  people 
live  in  a  state  of  military  siege.  All  bowling  societies,  Gaelic  clubs, 
and  Cumann  na  m'Ban1  meetings  were  being  suppressed,  but  were 
being  held  in  spite  of  the  law,  largely  and  mainly  through  the 
complete  unanimity  of  the  people.  That  is  the  foundation  of  the 
Republic  of  Ireland — the  absolute  unanimity  of  the  people.  A 
reward  of  ten  thousand  pounds,  or  about  forty  thousand  dollars, 
was  offered  by  the  English  government  in  every  part  of  the  city 
of  Dublin,  especially  in  the  poor  slums,  for  certain  information 
and  for  certain  men,  dead  or  alive;  and  the  reward  was  never 
claimed,  such  is  the  fidelity  of  the  people.  The  reward  was  never 
claimed,  although  hundreds  among  those  people  knew  where  the 
men  named  could  be  found.  The  expression  that  a  man  was  to  be 
found  "dead  or  alive"  meant  that  he  might  be  shot  at  sight,  and 
that  the  reward  would  be  given  to  the  person  who  shot  him  and 
produced  the  body.  That  was  the  meaning  of  it.  It  was  an  incite- 
ment to  murder.     It  was  a  license  to  kill. 

REPUBLICAN  GOVERNMENT  FUNCTIONS  BY  WILL 
OF  EIGHTY-FOUR  PER  CENT.  OF  PEOPLE 

As  a  result  of  the  general  parliamentary  elections  of  December, 
1918,  the  members  elected  met  in  Dublin  instead  of  going  to  Lon- 


A  women's  relief  organization  similar  to  the  Red  Cross. 


475 

don.  They  met  in  Dublin,  formed  their  own  national  assembly 
called  Dail  Eireann.  repudiated  England  and  all  foreign  rule,  estab- 
lished themselves  as  the  ruling  power  in  Ireland,  appointed  minis- 
ters to  take  charge  of  the  various  essential  departments  for  the 
reconstruction  of  our  country,  and  duly  elected  their  president,  Mr. 
de  Valera,  as  duly  elected  a  president  of  a  republic  as  ever  sat  in 
the  White  House  at  Washington.     That  is  our  position. 

At  the  local  government  elections  in  May,  1920 — last  May — the 
duties  of  the  police  were  discharged  by  soldiers  of  the  Irish  Repub- 
lic. In  many  places  public  houses  were  closed  by  order  of  these 
soldiers  to  avoid  any  danger  of  disturbances.  In  one  case  to  my 
own  knowledge,  schools  both  Protestant  and  Catholic  were  closed 
on  the  same  day  by  order  of  these  soldiers.  The  orders  of  these 
soldiers  were  cheerfully  and  implicitly  obeyed  by  all  classes  in  that 
local  government  election.  At  this  election  to  local  councils,  town 
councils,  and  city  corporations,  we  improved  our  position  by  having 
not  merely  73  per  cent,  but  84  per  cent,  of  the  citizens  of  Ireland 
vote  for  candidates  pledged  to  the  support  of  the  Republic.  It  may 
interest  the  Commission  to  hear  that  we  completely  broke  the  alleged 
barrier  between  the  northeast  corner  of  Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ire- 
land at  that  election.  You  are  told  in  this  country  that  the  north- 
east corner  of  Ireland  is  Ulster,  and  that  Ulster  is  a  solid  block 
against  independence  for  Ireland.  Against  that  let  me  give  you  the 
case  of  a  friend  of  mine,  Louis  Walsh,  of  the  Ballycastle  district  in 
County  Antrim,  an  Orange  county,  where  a  Catholic  candidate 
would  have  had  no  chance  at  all  of  election  if  dependent  on  Cath- 
olic votes.  His  election  was  accomplished  by  the  votes  of  Orange- 
men. He  started  out  by  declaring  himself  an  Irish  Republican 
without  any  qualifications.  In  all  his  speeches  he  so  described  him- 
self. The  election  was  held  under  a  new  system  which  England 
thought  would  be  disastrous  to  the  Republicans,  the  system  of 
proportional  representation.  They  thought  we  would  be  opposed 
to  the  representation  of  minorities.  Consequently  they  passed  in 
the  British  Parliament,  where  none  of  us  were,  the  Proportional 
Representation  Act,  the  main  purpose  of  which  was  to  secure  the 
representation  of  minorities.  We  welcomed  this  because  our  desire 
always  is  and  has  been  to  heed  the  voice  of  all  sections  of  the 
people.  My  friend  Walsh  of  Ballycastle  division  of  County  Antrim 
became  a  candidate.  All  the  people  voted  for  five  members.  Ten 
candidates  started.  Walsh  was  one  of  them.  He  was  the  only  Re- 
publican candidate.  He  was  elected  at  the  head  of  the  poll.  He 
got  more  votes  than  any  other  of  the  nine  candidates  in  an  Orange 
district.     In  his  speech  returning  thanks  to  the  electorate  for  having 


476 

elected  him,  he  returned  especial  thanks  to  the  Orangemen.     With- 
out their  votes  he  could  not  have  been  elected. 

ULSTER    BARRIER    MALICIOUSLY    CREATED    BY 
ENGLAND 

I  give  that  as  an  instance  of  the  artificial  barrier  attempted  to  be 
put  up  by  England  between  Ulster  and  the  rest  of  Ireland.  It  is 
purely  artificial  and  purely  malicious.  We  want  the  Orangemen. 
We  know  that  they  will  be  one  of  the  strongest  elements  in  our 
new  constitution.  We  hope  for  great  things  from  that  particular 
section  of  the  country,  on  account  of  the  advantages  they  have  had 
in  industry  when  we  in  the  south  have  not  been  allowed  to  practice 
industry,  as  I  have  just  informed  the  Commission.  If  English 
power  were  out  of  Ireland,  the  south  and  the  west  and  the  midlands 
would  harmonize  with  the  people  of  the  north  within  twenty-four 
hours.  There  is  no  division  between  us  but  a  factitious,  artificial 
division  kept  up  as  a  pretext  for  such  riots  as  occur  occasionally 
in  Derry  City  and  in  Belfast  under  English  influence. 

That  was  the  general  condition  of  Ireland  when  I  was  leaving 
it  last  July.  I  left  Ireland  on  the  ninth  of  July.  I  have  been  told 
since  I  came  to  Washington  that  the  Commission  desired  something 
of  an  historical  background  for  the  present  situation  in  Ireland. 
What  has  it  sprung  out  of?  What  is  its  source  and  origin?  I 
recognize  that  that  is  a  very  important  thing,  although  I  had  no 
knowledge  of  the  desire  for  its  presentation  until  I  arrived  yester- 
day. I  have  since  then  armed  myself  with  what  will  give  the  Com- 
mission as  much  information  as  they  may  desire  on  that  particular 
point. 

IRELAND    NEXT   TO    GREECE   IN   CONTRIBUTIONS 
TO  CIVILIZATION 

On  account  of  the  poor,  hungry,  and  ignorant  Irish  peasants  who 
have  for  generations  come  to  this  country,  and  the  effect  on  the 
minds  of  Americans  as  to  what  sort  of  a  race  they  must  belong  to 
to  be  so  backward,  I  claim  the  privilege  of  saying,  and  supporting 
the  statement  as  briefly  as  possible,  that  our  nation  of  Ireland  is 
one  with  a  grand  historical  past.  I  say  with  knowledge  that  no 
nation  in  Europe  excepting  Greece  alone  has  done  as  much  as  our 
little  country  of  Ireland  has  done  for  European  civilization,  and 
consequently  for  the  civilization  of  this  country.  Augustine  Thierry, 
a  Frenchman,   in  his   book.   "The   Norman   Conquest,"   volume   II, 


477 

pages  121,  122,  says:  "iNo  country  has  furnished  a  greater  number 
of  missionaries  for  Christianity,  from  no  other  motive  than  pure 
zeal  and  an  ardent  desire  of  communicating  to  foreign  nations  the 
opinions  and  faith  of  their  country.  The  Irish  were  great  travelers, 
and  always  gained  the  hearts  of  those  whom  they  visited  by  the 
extreme  ease  with  which  they  conformed  to  their  customs  and  way 
of  life.  This  facility  of  manners  was  allied  in  them  with  an  extreme 
love  of  national  independence." 

I  shall  give  no  authorities  except  non-Irish  authorities  as  far  as 
I  know.  Heinrich  Zimmer.  in  his  work,  "The  Irish  Element  in 
Mediaeval  Culture,"  says:  "Dungal,  Johannes  Scotus,  Clemens. 
Sedulius,  and  Moengal  are  representatives  of  a  higher  culture  than 
was  to  be  found  on  the  Continent  of  their  day.  To  a  purely 
Christian  training  and  a  severely  simple  habit  of  mind  they  joined 
the  highest  theoretical  attainments,  based  upon  a  thorough  knowl- 
edge of  the  best  standards  of  classical  antiquity.  These  Irishmen 
had  a  high  mission  entrusted  to  them,  and  they  faithfully  accom- 
plished their  task." 

EXTIRPATION   OF   IRISH   PEOPLE  THE  CONTIN- 
UOUS ENGLISH  POLICY  SINCE  HENRY  VIII. 

All  of  this  refers  to  Ireland's  relations  with  the  Continent  of 
Europe  from  the  fifth  to  the  tenth  centuries.  Then  dark  days  came. 
King  Henry  VIII  of  England  was  the  first  English  sovereign  to  plan 
and  put  into  feasible  operation  a  conquest  of  the  whole  of  Ireland, 
and  the  substitution  of  English  tenure  for  Irish  tenure  of  land,  and 
the  substitution  of  English  planters  for  the  Irish  people  he  had 
dispossessed  and  exterminated. 

Then,  of  course,  in  English  State  Papers,  2,  Volume  III,  page 
329— is  that  too  far  back? 

Chairman  Howe:  I  was  thinking  that  you  might  cite  the  places, 
and  save  your  time.     Or  you  could  just  leave  the  book  with  us. 

The  Witness:  The  point  was  that  King  Henry  VIII  was  the  first 
English  king  who  initiated  the  extirpation  of  the  Irish  race  from 
Ireland.  The  previous  policy  of  military  conquest  had  failed,  and 
from  Henry  VIII's  time  on  the  continuous  and  consistent  policy  of 
England  in  Ireland  has  been  nothing  less  than  the  gradual  extir- 
pation of  the  whole  nation.  It  was  suggested  to  Henry  to  take  first 
from  the  people  their  corn,  so  that  they  and  their  cattle  and  beasts 
would  have  nothing  on  which  to  live,  and  then  they  could  be  easily 
done  away  with.  As  the  State  Papers  say.  "Thus  to  enterprise  the 
whole  extirpation   and  total  destruction  of  all  the  Irishmen   of  the 


478 

land,  it  would  be  a  marvelous  sumptuous  charge  and  great  diffi- 
culty." Henry  himself  wrote,  "Now  at  the  beginning  politic  prac- 
tice may  do  more  good  than  exploit  of  war,  till  such  time  as  the 
strength  of  the  Irish  enemies  shall  be  enfeebled  and  diminished." 

At  a  later  period,  in  Elizabeth's  time,  Sir  Henry  Sydney,  her 
deputy,  made  a  tour  of  inspection  of  Ireland  in  1567,  and  he  re- 
ported to  Queen  Elizabeth:  "Such  horrible  and  lamentable  spec- 
tacles are  there  to  behold  as  the  burning  of  villages,  the  ruin  of 
churches,  the  wasting  of  such  as  have  been  good  towns  and  castles; 
yea,  the  view  of  the  bones  and  the  skulls  of  dead  subjects  who, 
partly  by  murder,  partly  by  famine,  have  died  in  the  fields,  as  in 
troth  hardly  any  Christian  with  dry  eyes  could  behold."  The  policy 
of  extermination  had  been  put  in  force  there  by  the  burning  of 
corn  in  the  fields,  the  slaughter  or  removal  of  the  people's  cattle, 
the  destruction  of  their  homes,  and  the  slaying  of  the  people  them- 
selves. This  is  the  report  of  Sir  Henry  Sydney,  deputy  of  Queen 
Elizabeth. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Mr.  Ginnell,  don't  you  think  it  would  suffice 
just  to  give  us  the  references  to  these  reports? 

A.  I  should  like  to  build  up  my  case.  What  I  want  to  prove, 
Mr.  President,  is  what  an  English  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland 
claims,  that  English  policy  in  Ireland  is  a  continuity.  I  want  to 
establish  that.  Present  English  policy  in  Ireland  is  a  continuity. 
It  is  not  a  mere  vagary  of  our  time.  I  have  English  authority  here 
to  establish  that.     It  is  a  very  important  thing  to  establish. 

In  1574  the  Earl  of  Essex  wrote  home  thus:  "In  the  end  it  may 
be  put  to  her — the  Queen's — choice  whether  she  will  suffer  this 
people  to  inhabit  here  for  their  rent,  or  extirpate  them  and  plant 
other  people  in  it.  The  force  which  shall  bring  about  the  one  shall 
do  the  other;  and  it  may  be  done  without  any  show  that  such  a 
thing  is  meant." 

Hollinshed,  an  English  historian,  tells  how  this  policy  of  extir- 
pation was  carried  out:  "As  they  went,  they  drove  the  whole  coun- 
try before  them  into  the  Ventrie,  and  by  that  means  they  preyed 
and  took  all  the  cattle  in  the  country,  to  the  number  of  eight  thou- 
sand kine,  besides  horses,  garrons,  sheep,  and  goats;  and  all  such 
people  as  they  met  they  did  without  mercy  put  to  the  sword.  By 
these  means  the  whole  country,  having  no  cattle  or  kine  left,  they 
were  driven  to  such  extremities  that  for  want  of  victuals  they  were 
either  to  die  and  perish  for  famine  or  die  under  the  sword.  Bv 
means  of  the  continual  persecuting  of  the  rebels,  who  could  have 
no  breath  nor  rest  to  relieve  themselves,  but  were  always  by  one 
garrison  or  other  hurt  and  pursued;  and  by  reason  that  their  cattle 


479 

were  taken  from  them  in  great  numbers  and  their  harvest  preyed 
upon,  and  the  whole 'country  spoiled  and  preyed,  the  poor  people, 
who  lived  only  upon  their  labors,  and  fed  by  their  milch  cows, 
were  so  distressed  that  they  would  follow  after  the  goods  which  were 
taken  from  them  and  offer  themselves,  their  wives  and  children 
rather  to  be  slain  by  the  army  than  to  suffer  the  famine  wherewith 
they  were  now  pinched.'1  That  is  from  Hollinshed's  history,  volume 
VI,  pages  33  and  427. 

I  would  ask  the  Commission  to  reflect  whether  that  is  not  in 
entire  harmony  with  what  a  member  of  the  Commission  read  today 
that  he  had  received  from  Ireland,1  showing  that  England's  policy 
of  the  Black-and-Tans  is  a  continuity. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Mr.  Ginnell,  we  have  had  a  great 
many  manuscripts  put  in  for  our  information,  a  great  many  that 
could  not  be  read  here.  And  if  you  could  mark  that  book  and  put 
it  in  the  report,  we  could  take  it  in  evidence.  We  would  rather  ask 
you  questions,  I  suppose. 

A.  Madam,  this  is  very  important.  It  is  absolutely  essential 
to  know  what  England's  policy  in  Ireland  has  been  in  the  past  in 
order  to  understand  what  is  going  on  there  now.  I  have  prepared 
this  so  that  you  will  have  the  necessary  background.  All  this  re- 
sults from  what  I  heard  upon  my  arrival   yesterday. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  have  almost  every  page  marked  there, 
Mr.  Ginnell. 

A.  Oh,  no.  It  would  be  time  well  spent.  I  am  here  to  make 
the  best  case  I  can  before  the  American  Commission,  and  with  all 
respect — 

Chairman  Howe:  We  are  not  doubting  that. 

The  Witness:  No  one  has  the  material  that  I  have  here  under  my 
hand.  I  have  my  case  under  my  hand,  prepared  to  present  to  you. 
I  have  come  here  to  make  my  case. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  have  had  many  documents  put  in. 

The  Witness:  But  there  is  not  one  of  these  documents  here, 
madam. 

Commissioner  Addams:  But  we  have  done  that,  Mr.  Ginnell,  in  a 
good  many  cases.  You  can  leave  your  papers,  and  we  shall  con- 
sider them  very  carefully,  just  the  same  as  if  they  were  presented 
here. 

The  Witness:   Under  that   understanding,   I   agree.      The  book   is 


Letter   read  into  the   record   by   Senator  Walsh,   p.   455. 


480 

marked  on  the  margin  with  the  corners  turned  down.1  I  must  ask 
leave  to  say  this:  We,  a  small  nation,  are  in  death  grips  with  the 
most  powerful  and  most  unscrupulous  empire  in  the  world.  That 
empire  if  allowed  to  be  represented  here  would  make  an  atrociously 
false  case.  I  have  evidence  here  to  prove  that  England's  policy  in 
Ireland  is  the  same  today  as  it  was  a  hundred  years  ago — a  policy 
of  extirpation.  And  I  can  prove  that  by  the  words  of  English 
statesmen  and  historians  themselves.  I  would  ask  you,  Mr.  Presi- 
dent, to  admit  that  that  is  a  strong  position. 

Chairman  Howe:  Suppose  you  summarize  that  as  rapidly  as  you 
can. 

Commissioner  Addams:  That  will  all  go  in,  Mr.  Ginnell ;  it  will 
all  go  in. 

The  Witness:  Thank  you,  madam,  I  will  do  that  now.  I  want  it 
on  the  record  that  I  made  an  attempt  to  prove  the  correctness  of 
the  statement  of  the  English  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland  that  Eng- 
land's policy  there  is  a  continuity.  That  is  what  I  am  here  for.  It 
is  no  freak  at  the  present  time.  It  is  a  continuity — a  deliberate 
policy  of  extirpation. 

Commissioner  Addams:  That  will  go  in  the  record,  and  in  support 
of  it  you  can  submit  this  book,  so  that  it  is  all  there. 

ALL  IRISH  FAMINES  ARE  ARTIFICIAL 

The  Witness:  I  accept  it,  madam.  Evidence  of  the  artificial 
famine  and  all  will  go  in.     All  famines  in  Ireland  are  artificial. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  might  just  elaborate  that  a  little.  You 
say  that  all  famines  in  Ireland  are  artificial.     What  do  you  mean? 

A.  The  Commission  has  before  it  evidence,  on  the  one  hand, 
that  Ireland  is  a  poor  country,  and  on  the  other  that  Ireland  is  a 
rich  country.  Which  is  to  be  believed?  I  am  here  with  very  con- 
siderable knowledge  to  say  that  Ireland  is  potentially  a  rich  coun- 
try, but  under  foreign  rule  can  never  be  rich.  That  is  the  whole 
answer.  There  is  no  puzzle  al  all  in  it.  Ireland  can  never  be  rich 
under  English  rule.  I  am  here  now  to  answer  any  question  that  the 
Commission  wishes  to  ask  on  that  point.  I  wish  the  Commission 
to  be  thoroughly  satisfied  on  that  particular  point,  that  Ireland  is 
potentially  a  rich  country,  rich  under  her  own  rule,  rich  under  her 
own  resources. 


1  The  witness  submitted  in  evidence  "The  Irish  Republic.  Why?"  a 
non-official  statement  prepared  by  him  for  submission  to  the  Paris  Peace 
Conference,  prefaced  by  Ireland's  official  case  for  independence.  New 
York.   1919.   139  naees. 


481 


ENGLAND'S  CONTINUOUS  SUPPRESSION  OF  IRISH 
INDUSTRIES 

Q.  We  would  like  to  hear  you  at  length  about  that,  Mr.  Ginnell. 
Just  explain  what  you  mean  by  that. 

A.  What  I  mean  by  it  is  this.  Naturally,  in  speaking  of  tin- 
resources  of  Ireland.  I  speak  of  the  land  first.  The  land  is  fertile, 
wonderfully  fertile  for  such  a  latitude.  The  people,  as  soon  as 
they  become  owners  of  their  holdings,  are  wonderfully  industrious, 
untiringly  industrious.  Without  a  future,  as  they  have  been  in  the 
past — without  a  future  and  outlet  for  their  abilities,  they  become 
idle  and  descend  to  vices.  With  a  future  they  gain  courage,  and 
they  are  apt  for  any  form  of  industry  that  they  are  allowed  to 
practice.  They  are  not  allowed  to  practice  any  form  of  industry 
under  English  rule. 

Q.     Explain  what  you  mean  by  that.     Give  an  instance  of  it. 

A.  I  gave  an  instance  of  it  in  the  particular  industry  in  my  own 
constituency. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  after  the  Irish  begin  to  take  advantage 
of  the  opportunities  that  are  given  to  them  under  the  Land  Pur- 
chase Act  or  otherwise,  that  after  they  take  advantage  of  it,  the 
British  Government  makes  it  impossible  to  use  it? 

A.  No,  it  does  not  apply  to  land.  It  applies  to  industry.  An 
Irish  child  may  grow  up  and  develop  a  distinct  taste  for  mechanics. 
When  he  grows  up  in  Ireland,  he  has  no  field  for  exercising  his 
peculiar  talent.  He  must  go  away  to  England,  Scotland,  or  Amer- 
ica, where  such  work  is  appreciated.  He  is  a  loss  to  his  own 
country. 

Q.      Explain  why  it  cannot  be  done  in  Ireland. 

A.     Because  industries  will  not  be  allowed  in  Ireland. 

Q.     Industries  will  not  be  allowed? 

A.     Industries  will  not  be  allowed. 

Q.     That  is  true  today,  as  it  was  in  earlier  days? 

A.  True  today,  not  so  much  of  the  laws  of  the  present  time,  but 
as  a  continuation  of  the  devices  of  past  laws  and  continued  admin- 
istration of  those  laws. 

Q.  Give  us  some  examples  of  today.  Is  that  true  of  the  fishing 
industry? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  true  of  all  industries  in  Ireland.  As  early  as  1545. 
an  act  of  33  Henry  VIII,  chapter  16,  prohibited  the  importation  of 
Irish  wool  into  England,  but  the  first  deliberate  blow  at  the  Irish 
woolen  industry  and  trade  in  goods  manufactured  from  wool  was 
the  English   Act  of  1660,  12  Charles  II.  chapter  4.     This  bill   hit 


482 

the  English  branch  of  the  Irish  trade  in  manufactured  wool,  but 
it  did  not  interfere  with  the  foreign  trade.  Another  Act  of  the  same 
year,  12  Charles  II,  chapter  32,  and  an  Act  of  1662,  14  Charles  II, 
chapter  18,  made  it  a  felony  that  was  punishable  by  death  to  export 
wool  from  Ireland  anywhere  but  to  England,  and  confiscated  the 
ship  and  cargo  and  goods  and  chattels  of  the  master  if  wool  were 
brought  into  England  except  in  the  raw  state  under  a  heavy  duty. 
That  is  England's  conception  of  Irish  industry.  She  made  it  a 
felony  punishable  by  death  to  carry  on  the  wool  trade  with  foreign 
nations,  and  permitted  raw  wool  only  to  be  brought  into  England 
under  a  prohibitive  duty. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  was  in  1662.  And  we  suppose 
that  since  you  have  been  in  Parliament,  you  can  give  us  recent  ex- 
amples out  of  your  experiences. 

A.  Oh,  no;  that  Act  exists  still  in  force.  According  to  Lecky — 
and  surely  you  will  accept  Lecky,  an  English  historian  who  is  in 
no  wise  partial  to  Ireland — we  are  not  yet  clear  of  the  damage  done 
to  Ireland  by  the  destruction  of  the  woolen  industry.  I  have  been 
asked  to  give  an  instance.  I  will  give  you  an  instance.  I  will 
answer  indirectly.  In  1697  a  violent  agitation  was  fomented  in 
the  woolen  centers  of  England,  alleging  decay  of  trade  owing  to 
the  growth  of  the  Irish  woolen  industry.  As  a  result  of  this  a  bill 
was  drafted  and  sent,  in  January,  1698,  to  the  Colonial  Parliament 
in  Dublin  for  enactment.  That  body  for  once  hesitated  to  pass,  at 
England's  dictation,  a  bill  conceived  and  drafted  for  the  express 
purpose  of  destroying  Ireland's  promising  woolen  industry.  It  had 
the  negative  courage  to  do  nothing.  Bearing  in  mind  the  circum- 
stances of  the  time,  one  can  estimate  the  vigor  of  the  woolen  indus- 
try of  Ireland  from  the  statement  of  a  contemporary  writer  that  it 
was  giving  employment  to  12,000  Protestant  families  in  Dublin 
and  to  30,000  Protestant  families  in  the  rest  of  Ireland.  From  the 
political  point  of  view,  they  were  the  only  families  worth  con- 
sidering. But  a  much  larger  number  of  Catholic  families  had  taken 
up  the  industry  as  far  as  allowed,  since  it  was  a  domestic  and 
congenial  industry.  The  Colonial  Parliament  at  Dublin,  dominated 
by  England,  was  finally  compelled  to  act,  and  passed  late  in  1698, 
by  a  small  majority,  the  Act,  10  William  III,  chapter  5,  Irish.  It 
was  a  measure  dictated  by  England  in  England's  interest  for  the 
destruction  of  Ireland's  industry  and  trade.  It  was  followed  the 
next  year  by  an  Act  of  the  English  Parliament,  10  and  11  William 
III,  chapter  10,  which  prohibited  perpetually  the  exportation  from 
Ireland  of  all  goods  made  of  or  mixed  with  wool,  except  with 
special   license,   and  then  only  to  England;   and  the  English  pro- 


483 

hibitory  duties  existing  since  1660  were  retained  in  full  force. 
Thus  every  door  was  barred  and  bolted,  and  the  people  of  Ireland 
were  for  commercial  purposes  marooned  and  imprisoned  on  their 
island  as  though  they  were  lepers.  Lecky  says — Lecky  is  an  ac- 
cepted historian  who  was  opposed  to  nationalism  and  all  those 
American  fads  that  are  becoming  so  popular — 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  think  we  will  accept  all  this  historical 
data  as  valid.  The  Commission  has  a  pretty  thorough  knowledge 
of  England's  embargoes  on  Ireland's  trade  and  the  attempt  to  de- 
stroy industry  in  Ireland  during  the  preceding  centuries. 

A.     This  is  precisely  what  you  asked  for,  sir. 

Q.      I  was  thinking  about  something  contemporary. 

A.  The  cotton  and  the  glass  industries  have  been  suppressed  in 
the  same  way.  Ireland  has  peculiar  ingredients  for  the  manufac- 
ture of  fine  glass,  and  factories  have  been  established  at  Birr  and 
other  places,  where  for  some  time  a  great  variety  of  glass  was  pro- 
duced. The  products  of  those  factories  was  a  very  high-grade  glass 
which  was  much  in  demand  for  exportation.  As  soon  as  the  industry 
began  to  flourish,  the  English  Parliament  prohibited  Ireland  from 
exporting  glass  to  any  country  whatever. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  if  a  person  started  a  glass  factory 
or  a  cotton  factory  today  in  Ireland — you  mean  to  say  that  the 
British  Parliament  or  the  British  Board  of  Trade  would  prevent  it? 

A.  Yes,  they  would  by  sheer  force  overwhelm  us.  They  would 
stifle  us  out.  The  British  Board  of  Trade  would  immediately  dump 
in  Ireland  bales  and  boxes  and  all  goods  necessary  to  stamp  us  out. 
We  could  not  exist  against  it. 

Q.  You  mean  that  Ireland  should  be  able  to  protect  herself 
against  such  competition  by  necessary  tariffs? 

A.     Yes,  certainly. 

IMPRISONMENT   OF  IRISH   MEMBERS    OF 
PARLIAMENT 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Mr.  Ginnell,  how  many  members 
who  were  elected  to  the  British  Parliament  and  instead  became 
members  of  the  Irish  Parliament  are  still  free — still  at  large? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  People  in  Ireland  do  not  know,  because 
there  are  so  many  of  them  on  the  run.  They  cannot  appear  in 
public.  A  rough  estimate  would  be — well,  73  seats  were  filled  by 
Republicans.  In  four  or  five  cases  one  man  was  elected  from  two 
seats.  In  our  circumstances  we  cannot  manage  that.  So  that  we 
really  had  68  men  for  73  seats.     Of  those  68,  Pearse  McCan,  mem- 


484 

ber  from  East  Tipperary,  as  fine  a  young  man  as  I  have  ever  seen, 
died  in  an  English  prison  in  March,  1919.  Terence  MacSwiney 
died  after  a  seventy-four-day  fast  in  an  English  prison.  There  are 
two  gone.  Roughly,  perhaps  twenty  others  are  in  prison,  twenty 
are  on  the  run  from  the  police,  and  the  remainder  are  trying  to 
mind  their  business  as  well  as  they  possibly  can,  either  their  own 
or  their  country's  business.1 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Did  that  Parliament  ever  sit  in  Dublin? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  For  how  many  months?  How  many  of  its  sessions  did  you 
attend? 

A.  I  did  not  sit  long,  because  I  was  not  free  long  enough  to  sit. 
I  attended  five  of  their  sessions,  I  think. 

Q.     Were  those  daily  sessions? 

A.  They  were  daily  sessions;  but  I  regard  the  whole  of  a  group 
of  days  as  a  session. 

THE  NEW  IRELAND  TO  BE  A  COOPERATIVE 
COMMONWEALTH 

Q.     What  kind  of  legislation  did  they  pass  in  those  sessions? 

A.  It  was  constructive  legislation.  We  could  not  take  up  any- 
thing like  a  code  of  laws.  The  only  thing  we  could  do  was  to  adopt 
a  code  of  justice  as  much  in  harmony  as  possible  with  the  old 
Gaelic  system,  the  old  Brehon  laws,  which  have  prevailed  in  Ireland 
from  before  the  dawn  of  history.  We  intend  our  Republic  to  be  a 
cooperative  commonwealth  as  much  as  possible.  That  will  be  in 
strict  harmony  with  the  old  Brehon  system. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  do  you  mean  by  a  cooperative  com- 
monwealth? 

A.  I  mean  that  we  look  to  a  future  Ireland  where  most  of  the 
branches  of  business  will  be  carried  on  by  a  cooperative  system. 
By  that  we  hope  to  escape  from  the  difficulties  of  countries  in 
modern  times  with  labor  problems.  We  intend  that  the  workers 
shall  be  to  some  extent  owners  of  the  institutions  in  which  they 
work,  and  that  their  prosperity  shall  increase  with  the  prosperity 
of  the  institution,  participating  in  its  prosperity  and  participating 
in  its  direction.     Some  of  the  workers  are  very  intelligent  men. 

Q.     That  is  along  the  line  of  industrial  democracy? 

A.  Along  the  line  of  industrial  democracy.  In  connection  with 
that,  I  think  I  ought  to  mention  to  the  Commission  that  I  wrote  a 


1  For  exact  figures  on  execution  and  imprisonment  of  Irish  Members  of 
Parliament,  see  p.  161. 


485 

book  in  1894,  published  by  Fisher-Unwin,  on  the  Brehon  laws.  The 
Brehon  laws  began  in  prehistoric  times.  In  old  manuscripts  which 
we  have  in  vellum  they  have  come  down  to  us.  They  begin  in 
languages  which  no  living  man  is  able  to  translate.  The  only  way 
that  a  translation  can  be  got  is  by  the  glosses  written  on  the  margins 
and  the  interlined  lines.  That  is  the  only  way  that  a  translation 
can  be  given.  They  are  very  picturesque.  The  whole  body  of  the 
Brehon  laws  have  been  translated  by  the  British  government,  by  a 
man  who  was  professor  of  Sanskrit  in  Trinity  College.  Under  such 
uncongenial  hands,  the  laws  have  been  mistranslated;  but  such  as 
they  are,  they  have  been  published  in  five  volumes — in  five  volumes 
as  large  as  that  paper  (indicating  double  letter  sheet). 

Q.     Who  conceived  the  idea  of  a  cooperative  commonwealth? 

A.  We  did.  I  was  about  to  tell  you  that  that  book  of  mine  was 
reprinted  by  the  Socialists,  by  a  man  in  Glasgow  for  distribution 
among  Socialists,  so  near  was  the  old  Irish  system  like  Socialism. 

Q.  The  Irish  Parliament  was  dedicated  to  that  form  of  govern- 
ment? 

A.  Not  expressly,  but  all  understood  that  that  was  what  it  would 
be.  I  myself  have  written  a  little  forecast  of  what  the  Irish  con- 
stitution will  be,  but  I  haven't  it  here  with  me. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  You  consider  that  the  future  state  in 
Ireland  will  be  along  the  lines  of  the  present  cooperative  movement 
in  Ireland? 

COOPERATION  WITHOUT  INDEPENDENCE  WILL 
NOT  BENEFIT  IRELAND 

A.  It  will.  You  may  be  told  by  someone  after  me  that  the  co- 
operative movement  will  be  a  solution  for  all  their  difficulties.  But 
it  cannot  be  done  that  way.  We  are  told  that  laws  enabling  co- 
operative societies  to  be  formed  in  Ireland  would  solve  all  of  our 
problems.  But  we  know  better  than  that.  We  knew  that  to  increase 
the  farmer's  income  from  the  soil  while  the  landlord  was  over  him 
would  only  increase  the  wealth  in  the  landlord's  pockets.  The  only 
thing  to  do  was  to  clear  out  the  landlord  and  brush  him  away. 
And  with  the  cooperative  movement,  to  increase  the  wealth  of  the 
people  by  the  cooperative  movement  while  England  is  over  us  will 
only  increase  the  amount  of  money  that  will  flow  into  England's 
treasury.  It  will  do  us  no  good.  That  is  my  answer  to  cooperation 
alone.  We  look  for  great  things  from  it  in  a  free  Ireland,  but 
nothing  in  it  for  an  Ireland  ruled  by  strangers. 


486 

I  do  not  know  whether  an  English  proclamation  issued  on  the 
nineteenth  of  March,  1917,  in  the  city  of  Bagdad,  while  the  war 
was  going  on,  would  be  of  any  interest  to  this  Commission. 

Chairman  Howe:  It  seems  a  good  many  miles  away,  Mr.  Ginnell. 

The  Witness:  Very  well.  But  I  believe  it  would  serve  a  place  in 
the  evidence.  It  is  for  the  purpose  of  proving  to  the  hilt,  as  every 
page  of  this  proves  (indicating  book),  England's  hypocrisy. 

Now,  on  a  subject  on  which  you,  sir,  have  questioned  me,  Buck 
says,  "Every  nation  has  formed  for  itself  some  favorite  point,  which 
for  it  becomes  the  criterion  of  its  happiness."  So  have  we.  We  do 
not  interfere  with  the  English  nation  or  any  other  nation  from 
forming  any  point  it  pleases  as  the  criterion  of  its  happiness,  while 
we  are  allowed  to  form  the  criterion  of  our  own  happiness. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Was  the  Home  Rule  Bill  discussed 
during  your  membership  in  Parliament,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

A.     Yes,  I  was  there  during  the  whole  of  it,  madam. 

ENGLAND    HAS    FORFEITED    RIGHT    TO    RULE 
IRELAND  BY  TYRRANIC  ABUSE  OF  POWER 

I  have  stated  a  good  number  of  instances  to  you  to  prove  that 
English  policy  in  Ireland  is  a  continuity,  that  its  purpose  is  to 
destroy  the  Irish  people.  International  law  regards  such  abuse  of 
power  as  tyranny,  and  France,  England,  Russia,  and  America  have 
already  in  several  cases,  with  universal  approval,  regarded  such 
tyranny  as  a  forfeiture  by  the  offending  state  of  any  right  to  rule 
such  subject  nation,  released  the  nation  from  such  subjection,  and 
established  and  maintained  its  independence.  This  book  says:  "In 
none  of  those  instances,  in  no  case  of  which  there  is  record,  has 
abuse  of  power  been  so  bad  or  so  long  continued  as  in  the  treatment 
of  Ireland  by  England,  comprising  as  it  does:  (1)  the  policy  of 
defamation  of  Irish  character,  still  being  pursued;  (2)  the  policy 
of  destruction  of  civilization  in  Ireland,  still  being  pursued;  (3)  the 
policy  of  exterminating  the  Irish  nation,  still  being  pursued;  (4) 
the  policy  of  destruction  and  prevention  of  Irish  industries  and 
trade,  still  being  pursued;  (5)  the  policy  of  prevention  of  legitimate 
intercourse  with  other  nations,  still  being  pursued;  (6)  the  policy 
of  financial  exhaustion  of  Ireland  for  England's  purposes,  still  be- 
ing pursued;  (7)  the  policy  of  infidelity  to  public  engagements  with 
Ireland,  still  being  pursued;  (8)  the  policy  of  general  victimiza- 
tion of  Ireland,  still  being  pursued;    (9)   the  policy  of  infringing 


487 

the  international  convention  of  The  Hague  of  1907,  still  being  pur- 
sued; and  (10)  the  policy  of  dominating  international  commerce, 
still  being  pursued." 

IRELAND    DEPRIVED    OF    OVER    FOUR    HUNDRED 
MILLION  POUNDS  IN  TAXES 

I  was  asked  yesterday  by  the  secretary  of  this  Commission  whether 
I  could  say  anything  on  the  financial  exhaustion  of  Ireland  in  recent 
times.  Mr.  President,  may  I  submit  extracts  from  duly  accredited 
authorities,  commissioners  appointed  by  the  British  government  to 
examine  the  financial  relations  between  Great  Britain  and  Ireland, 
showing  in  modern  times — that  is,  since  the  Union,  since  the  year 
1800  down  to  the  issuance  of  this  report  in  1896 — what  those  rela- 
tions were? 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  this  historical,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

A.  It  is  the  report  of  the  Financial  Relations  Commission  ap- 
pointed by  Parliament  in  1896. 

Chairman  Howe:  That  is  a  little  far  back.  We  should  like  to 
have  you  begin  not  longer  ago  than  1916. 

The  Witness:  This  Commission  is  considering  the  present  condi- 
tions in  Ireland.  The  conditions  that  exist  in  Ireland  now  are  rooted 
in  what  has  been  happening  over  there  for  several  centuries." 

Chairman  Howe:  We  know,  Mr.  Ginnell.  But  we  are  mainly 
interested  in  what  is  taking  place  over  there  now.  To  encumber 
our  record  with  historical  matters  is  not  nearly  so  valuable  to  us  as 
what  is  happening  over  there  today. 

The  Witness:  Then  your  secretary  must  have  been  in  error  when 
he  conveyed  that  impression  to  me.  I  have  here  the  material  he 
asked  for. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  current  statistics  in  the  Statesmen's  Year 
Book  will  give  us  what  is  wanted  about — 

The  Witness:  Oh,  no,  no,  no.  The  Statesmen's  Year  Book  is 
doctored.    You  cannot  get  it  there. 

Chairman  Howe:  But  we  do  not  want  to  go  back  to  1800  or  1850. 

The  Witness:  But  this  is  reported  in  1896.  Some  of  the  men 
on  the  Commission  are  alive  still.  Really,  I  must  begin  to  suspect 
with  very  serious  doubt  whether  you  want  the  whole  truth  and 
nothing  but  the  truth,  or  not. 

Chairman  Howe:  You  must  know,  Mr.  Ginnell,  we  could  spend 
years  in  going  over  the  whole  Irish  question  and  going  back  to  the 
beginning. 


488 

The  Witness:  Oh,  no.  I  have  the  audacity  to  consider  myself  a 
very  exceptional  man  before  you.  You  have  the  opportunity  to  hear 
evidence  that  you  have  not  got  from  anybody  else.  That  is  a  very 
strong  position.  You  may  have  other  witnesses  here  who  will 
represent  the  absolute  contrary  of  this  on  their  own  authority,  and 
it  will  go  into  the  record.  This  is  not  ancient  history.  It  continues 
still.  These  fifteen  gentlemen,  four  of  them  Irish,  the  others 
Britons — these  fifteen  gentlemen  found,  to  put  it  in  a  nutshell — they 
found  that  Ireland  had  been,  since  the  Act  of  Union,  overtaxed,  as 
compared  with  England  on  England's  own  official  reports — official 
statistics,  the  accuracy  of  which  we  deny— these  gentlemen  found 
that  England  had  on  her  own  statistics  overtaxed  Ireland  as  com- 
pared to  England  to  the  extent  of  over  two  and  three-quarter  million 
pounds  a  year.  In  1915  Lord  MacDonald,  who  is  not  a  friend  of 
the  Republic,  published  a  calculation  made  on  the  report  made  by 
these  commissioners  that  to  that  date  England  had  overtaxed  Ireland 
to  an  amount  of  over  four  hundred  million  pounds.  That  has  never 
been  remedied.  It  is  conclusive  evidence  of  Ireland's  financial 
ability  to  run  her  own  government.  I  really  must  get  up  and  go 
away  if  this  evidence  will  not  be  permitted. 

Chairman  Howe:  Go  ahead,  Mr.  Ginnell,  just  as  you  have  done 
now. 

The  Witness:  Read,  or  what? 

Chairman  Howe:  Just  as  you  are  now. 

The  Witness:  I  cannot  do  that.  That  would  be  only  my  ipse 
dixit.  With  the  greatest  respect,  I  want  the  evidence,  which  is  not 
mine  but  England's  evidence,  on  the  record.  And  if  that  is  not 
conceded,  then  I  will  have  nothing  left  than  to  go. 

Chairman  Howe:  Go  ahead.  We  really  would  prefer  that  that 
be  typed  and  put  into  the  record  without  your  reading  it  now.  But 
if  you  prefer  to  put  it  in  this  way,  go  ahead. 

The  Witness:  I  would  with  pleasure  have  had  it  typed  and  given 
to  the  Commission  if  I  had  any  idea  you  wanted  such  matter.  I 
really  do  not  know  where  to  start.  This  Commission,  let  me  say 
with  the  utmost  respect — from  what  I  have  heard  of  it  since  its 
formation,  let  me  say  with  the  utmost  respect  that  this  Commission 
is  at  a  crisis.  You  will  have  the  truth  about  Ireland  or  you  will 
not.  It  is  not  the  first  crisis  that  I  have  brought  about  elsewhere, 
in  Westminster.  If  I  get  this  evidence  before  you,  then  you  may 
hear  whom  you  please.  If  they  can  disturb  a  paragraph  of  this 
evidence,  I  will  hang  my  head  in  shame.  I  am  sure  they  cannot. 
How  am  I  to  know,  unless  you  take  the  other  half  of  this  evidence, 
whether  you  have  the  facts  before  you.     If  I  had  known  you  wanted 


489 

it  typed,  I  could  have  brought  it  that  way.  1  worked  all  day  yester- 
day to  get  it  together  for  you. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  are  not  refusing  it,  Mr.  Ginnell.  It 
is  just  a  matter  of  dictating  it  tomorrow  to  a  stenographer  and 
handing  it  in. 

The  Witness:  I  am  a  man  that  has  been  broken  down  by  almost 
continuous  imprisonment.  It  does  not  want  to  be  dictated.  You 
have  listened  to  evidence  far  less  important. 

Chairman  Howe:  Go  ahead,  Mr.  Ginnell. 

The  Witness:  The  report  of  this  Financial  Commission  states: 
"The  Financial  Relations  Commission  was  appointed  to  inquire  into 
the  financial  conditions  between  Great  Britain  and  Ireland  and  their 
relative  taxable  capacities  and  to  report."  The  very  terms  of  this 
commission  are  an  acknowledgment  that  Great  Britain  and  Ireland 
are  not  one  country,  but  two  distinct  countries,  in  spite  of  the  Act 
of  Union  and  the  amalgamation  of  their  treasuries.  The  Commis- 
sion was  appointed  by  royal  warrant  dated  twenty-sixth  of  May, 
1894,  with  the  following  Commissioners:  Right  Honorable  Hugh 
C.  E.  Childers,  Chairman;  Lord  Farrer,  Lord  Welby,  Right  Honor- 
able O'Connor  Don,  an  Irishman ;  Sir  Robert  G.  C.  Hamilton,  repre- 
sentative of  the  English  Treasury;  Sir  David  Barbour,  Honorable 
Edward  Blake,  a  Canadian,  but  a  member  of  Parliament  for  an 
Irish  constituency;  Bertram  W.  Currie,  W.  A.  Hunter,  M.  P.;  C.  E. 
Martin,  J.  E.  Redmond,  M.  P.,  an  Irishman;  and  Thomas  Sexton, 
M.  P.,  an  Irishman.  To  take  the  place  of  two  deceased  commis- 
sioners, there  were  appointed  by  further  royal  warrant  dated  twenty- 
second  of  June,  1894,  Henry  F.  Slattery,  an  Irishman;  G.  W.  Wolff, 
M.  P.  On  the  death  of  Mr.  Childers,  the  Right  Honorable  O'Connor 
Don  was  appointed  Chairman.  The  final  report,  page  two,  states: 
"In  carrying  out  the  inquiry,  we  have  ascertained  that  there  are 
certain  questions  upon  which  we  are  practically  unanimous,  and 
we  think  it  expedient  to  set  them  out  in  this  joint  report.  Our 
conclusions  on  these  questions  are  as  follows:  (1)  That  Great 
Britain  and  Ireland  must,  for  the  purpose  of  this  inquiry,  be  con- 
sidered as  separate  entities.  (2)  That  the  Act  of  Union  imposed 
upon  Ireland  a  burden  which,  as  events  showed,  she  was  unable  to 
bear.  (3)  That  the  increase  of  taxation  laid  upon  Ireland  between 
1853  and  1860  was  not  justified  by  the  then  existing  circumstances. 
(4)  That  identity  of  rates  of  taxation  does  not  necessarily  involve 
equality  of  burden.  (5)  That  whilst  the  actual  tax  revenue  of 
Ireland  is  about  one-eleventh  that  of  Great  Britain,  the  relative 
taxable  capacity  of  Ireland  is  very  much  smaller,  and  is  not  esti- 
mated by  any  of  us  as  exceeding  one-twentieth." 


490 

All  of  these  things  continue  to  the  present  day.  We  did  not  get 
rid  of  them  by  this  inquiry.  It  is  going  on,  and  continuing  to  go 
on.  Following  the  united  joint  report,  from  which  the  foregoing 
extract  is  made,  there  are  five  other  reports  signed  by  different 
commissioners,  and  a  draft  report  written  by  Mr.  Childers  before  his 
death,  in  some  respects  the  best  report  made.  The  report  signed 
by  O'Connor  Don,  chairman;  J.  E.  Redmond,  C.  E.  Martin,  W.  A. 
Hunter,  and  Gustav  W.  Wolff,  says,  on  page  three:  "Previously  to 
the  Union,  it  was  not  obligatory  upon  Ireland  to  contribute  any- 
thing to  objects  beyond  her  own  shores."  This  report  contains  an 
extract  from  a  report  drawn  up  in  1805  by  Sir  Stafford  Northcote, 
for  many  years  Chancellor  of  the  British  Exchequer. 

Chairman  Howe:  I  think,  Mr.  Ginnell,  you  thoroughly  misunder- 
stand the  purpose  of  this  Commission.  We  do  not  have  it  in  mind 
to  make  any  suggestions  regarding  the  government  of  Ireland. 
What  this  Commission  has  been  hearing  witnesses  on  is  conditions 
in  Ireland  today — the  murders,  the  killings,  the  destruction  of 
towns,  the  destruction  of  creameries,  the  continuation  of  civil  war; 
and  we  really  did  not  come  together  for  hearing  a  lot  of  data  on 
finance. 

The  Witness:  Then  you  will  not  admit  it  into  the  evidence? 

Chairman  Howe:  That  will  be  all  regarded  if  you  can  dictate  it 
to  the  stenographer,  and  we  will  consider  it  in  making  the  report. 

IRELAND    FINANCIALLY    ABLE   TO    SUPPORT    AN 
INDEPENDENT  STATE 

The  Witness:  Mr.  President,  the  question  will  arise,  Are  we  able 
to  support  an  independent  state?  I  want  to  prove  it  by  the  fact 
that  England  has  extracted  from  us  and  will  extract  from  us  more 
than  would  support  several  of  the  states  of  Europe.  Is  not  that 
important? 

Chairman  Howe :  Yes,  it  is  important.  But  what  we  want  to  know 
are  the  things  you  have  lived  through. 

The  Witness:  I  have  not  witnessed  an  attack,  because  it  did  not 
occur  while  I  was  at  large.  I  was  not  free  to  witness  it.  And  then 
when  I  was  released,  my  health  was  shattered.  I  am  a  man  who 
has  always  led  an  active  life,  and  but  for  this  unjust  treatment  I 
would  be  an  active,  energetic  man  today.  I  want  to  do  the  most 
I  can  for  my  country,  knowing  the  powers  and  the  resources  that 
are  against  us.  I  am  here  for  the  purpose  of  presenting  the  truth 
about  Ireland,  whether  this  Commission  is  or  not.     I  am  here  for 


491 

that  purpose,  and  it  is  extremely  hard  to  suppress  it  and  to  make 
me  a  party  to  suppressing  it. 

Senator  Walsh:  Can  it  not  be  put  in  the  record,  Mr.  Ginnell? 

The  Witness:  Very  well,  then. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  am  afraid  this  is  exhausting  you  physi- 
cally. 

The  Witness:  Oh,  dear,  no.     I  would  work  until  I  fell. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  admire  your  spirit  of  perseverance. 

The  Witness:  I  want  to  say  that  it  will  be  observed  from  all  this 
that  the  Financial  Relations  Commission,  in  agreement  with  its 
name,  deals  only  with  money,  and  not  with  all  the  money  relations, 
as  it  might  have  done,  but  exclusively  with  taxation.  And  in  taxes 
alone  England  has  robbed  Ireland  of  four  hundred  million  pounds 
in  excessive  taxation  from  the  Act  of  Union  down  to  1914. 

IRISH  TRADE  WIPED  OFF  THE  SEAS  BY  ENGLAND 

There  are  various  other  ways  in  which  Ireland  suffers  atro- 
ciously: the  loss  of  manhood  driven  to  other  lands;  the  revenue 
from  her  land,  which  has  been  estimated  by  competent  authority 
at  thirteen  million  pounds  a  year;  and  various  other  losses  of  that 
kind.  This  is  not  an  academic  matter  for  me.  It  is  a  matter  of 
life  and  death  for  those  who  are  dearer  to  me  than  life  itself. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Is  all  that  written  out? 

A.  It  is  written  out.  This  here  is  in  .-Pitman  shorthand,  if  this 
gentleman  here  (indicating  reporter)  knows  it.  This  Commission  is 
really  narrowing  the  scope  of  its  inquiry.  We  lose  enormously  by 
the  loss  of  our  trade.  We  have  been  wiped  off  the  seas  by  England. 
Ireland  was  once  a  rival  of  England  on  the  seas.  She  has  not  a 
ship  now.  Pass  along  the  Blacksod  Bay,  a  bay  sheltered  by  a  huge 
island  from  the  waves  of  the  Atlantic,  so  deep  and  so  capacious 
that  it  is  able  to  hold  the  whole  British  navy  on  its  bosom.  There 
is  not  even  a  fishing  boat  on  it.  Go  down  to  Galway,  which  was 
a  great  trading  center  with  Spain  and  other  countries,  even  in  Queen 
Elizabeth's  time.  There  is  not  a  boat  on  it.  I  spent  six  months  on 
the  Aran  Islands  near  Galway.  I  saw  only  two  trading  vessels 
going  into  Galway  Bay.  I  saw  war  vessels  there,  English  war  ves- 
sels, although  there  is  no  one  there  to  do  any  harm.  Even  in  that 
sheltered  place  of  Galway  Bay  there  was  not  a  single  sail  to  be 
seen  except  England's  men-of-war.  That  is  an  enormous  loss  to  us. 
We  of  the  Republican  Government  have  made  efforts  to  get  boats 
for  the  fishermen  to  put  the  fishermen  at  work.  And  we  are 
thwarted,  and  our  boats  are  confiscated;   and  actually  our  money 


492 

lodged  under  private  names  in  the  banks  is  taken  out  by  English 
soldiers — bank  robbery  in  broad  daylight  by  the  English  Govern- 
ment. 

MUNSTER   AND   LEINSTER   BANK   ROBBED    BY 
ENGLISH   SOLDIERS 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  proof  have  you  of  that?  Name  us  the 
bank,  and  the  individuals  that  have  had  their  money  taken. 

A.     The  Munster  and  Leinster  Bank  in  Dublin. 

Q.     Who  are  the  individuals? 

A.  I  do  not  know  the  individuals.  How  would  I  know  the  indi- 
viduals? I  have  been  away  from  Ireland  in  English  prisons,  or 
in  America. 

Q.     Where  did  you  get  your  information? 

A.     From  the  public  press.     This  occurred  last  August. 

Q.  \ou  realize  that  we  will  have  to  make  some  findings  of  fact, 
not  upon  public  press  reports,  but  from  what  people  who  have  per- 
sonal knowledge  can  tell  us. 

A.  Is  there  any  doubt  that  the  Munster  and  Leinster  Bank  was 
robbed  by  English  soldiers?  That  is  a  notorious  public  fact.  It 
happened  after  I  came  to  this  country. 

Q.  We  have  your  statement  that  you  got  that  information  from 
the  press. 

A.  Yes.  But  I  know  of  another  case  of  that  kind,  and  I  know 
the  people  involved. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  am  not  disputing  the  facts,  but  I  am  trying  to 
get  the  facts.  I  want  names  and  I  want  places  and  I  want  dates 
about  these  things  from  some  reliable  source.  I  get  letters  from 
Ireland  almost  every  day  telling  of  such  happenings — of  people 
searched  coming  out  of  church,  and  of  animals  killed  along  the 
country  roads,  and  that  sort  of  thing. 

IRISH   IMPORTERS   COMPELLED    TO   PAY    UNJUST 
PORT  FEES 

The  Witness:  I  am  reminded  of  an  incident  of  my  own  personal 
knowledge.  There  is  a  big  firm  in  Dublin,  candle  manufacturers. 
They  get  raw  material  from  this  country,  or  some  place,  on  ships 
straight  to  Dublin.  I  do  not  suppose  any  difference  was  made  in 
the  treatment  of  their  cargoes  from  the  treatment  given  to  cargoes 
of  other  firms.  But  this  particular  firm  refused  to  pay  one  par- 
ticular item.     What  item  was  that?     It  was  a  charge  for  port  fees 


493 

in  Liverpool,  where  the  vessel  had  not  been  at  all.  They  tested  it 
out  at  law.  They  found  that  the  whole  power  of  England  would 
compel  the  payment.  Of  all  the  many  firms  treated  that  way,  they 
were  the  only  ones  who  refused  payment  and  sought  justice  in  the 
courts.     And  they  got  only  English  justice. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  cannot  imagine  any  evidence  more  important 
for  this  Commission  than  if  somebody  could  give  us  the  names  of 
ten,  fifteen,  or  twenty  individuals  who  have  had  their  bank  accounts 
confiscated.  The  bald  statement  may  be  impressive.  But  it  is  very 
much  more  impressive  on  the  American  people  to  show  when  it 
happened,  how  it  happened,  and  who  had  their  bank  accounts  con- 
fiscated. If  we  are  to  impress  the  American  people,  we  must 
possess  facts — facts  of  eye  witnesses  that  cannot  be  disputed,  and 
not  general  statements.  That  is  not  criticism  of  your  general  state- 
ments, but  I  am  trying  to  impress  upon  you  that  is  what  we  want — 
facts,  and  facts  from  eye  witnesses. 

The  Witness:  It  is  very  hard  to  get  facts  of  that  kind  out  of  Ire- 
land, because  a  letter  containing  those  facts  would  not  be  allowed 
through.  There  is  at  least  a  large  chance  it  would  not.  I  have 
given  you  the  Lawlor  case,  a  firm  of  candle  manufacturers  on 
Ormond  Quay,  Dublin,  charged  for  port  duties  at  Liverpool  on  a 
vessel  that  had  reached  Dublin  from  America  without  going  to 
Liverpool  at  all.  That  seems  to  me  to  be  a  matter  of  some  impor- 
tance. 

I  can  also  give  you  an  instance  of  a  smaller  bank,  a  bank  of 
which  Mr.  Kelley,  a  brother  of  Alderman  Kelley  of  Dublin,  was 
manager.  That  bank  was  entered  by  the  military  and  all  the  books 
of  the  bank  and  some  of  the  cash  taken  away.  That,  of  course,  is 
a  case  which  occurred  while  I  was  free.  But  I  consider  the  Munster 
and  Leinster  case  of  more  importance  because  it  was  a  very  large 
bank. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Who  were  the  beneficiaries  of  those 
charges  for  port  duties? 

A.     The  port  authorities  of  Liverpool. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Are  they  a  public  organization? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Chairman  Howe:  It  is  a  trust  organization,  organized  under 
special  charter  from  Parliament,  which  governs  the  harbors  and 
docks.     It  is  just  like  a  municipal  organization,  but  it  is  separate. 


494 

COOPERATIVE  DEVELOPMENT  OF  LAND  THE 
FIRST  NECESSARY  REFORM 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  May  I  ask  you  another  question? 
Discussing  the  cooperatives  a  short  time  ago,  to  what  extent  would 
the  development  of  your  cooperative  plans  that  you  spoke  of  inter- 
fere with  the  private  ownership  of  property? 

A.  There  are  large  tracts  of  land  in  Ireland — there  is  sufficient 
land  in  Ireland  to  go  around,  but  it  is  not  available  for  the  people. 
It  will  have  to  be  taken  over  for  the  people.  I  think  that  reaches 
your  question,  does  it  not? 

Q.  May  I  just  make  a  suggestion  to  make  myself  understood 
better?  Is  it  the  idea  of  your  cooperation  to  develop  along  similar 
lines  by  which  you  developed  the  creameries? 

A.  Our  idea  is  rather  to  bring  as  much  land  as  possible  under 
tillage  by  resident  owners.  There  are  in  many  of  the  counties  of 
Ireland  large  tracts  of  land  which  are  untenanted  and  unresiden- 
tial — no  owners  reside  there  at  all.  One  of  our  first  works  will  be 
to  break  up  those  tracts  and  distribute  them  among  working  people 
on  terms  actually  workable  for  people  of  that  kind. 

CONGESTED  DISTRICTS  BOARD  FAILS  TO 
DISTRIBUTE  LAND  TO  PEOPLE 

The  Congested  Districts  Board  was  established  by  Act  of  Parlia- 
ment in  1897.  It  was  established  for  dealing  with  what  was  called 
the  congested  districts.  Its  area  of  operation  was  limited  at  first 
to  the  western  part  of  the  Province  of  Connaught.  Subsequent 
Acts  increased  the  scope  of  the  Board,  so  at  present  the  congested 
areas  comprise  all  of  Connaught  and  Munster  and  the  whole  western 
seaboard,  because  the  western  seaboard  has  always  been  a  difficult 
problem.  This  Board  was  created  for  a  temporary  purpose,  which 
was  assumed  and  described  to  be  completed  within  ten  years — a 
purely  temporary  purpose,  to  solve  the  land  question  in  the  western 
counties  where  there  was  congestion  in  some  districts — the  poor 
districts — while  there  was  good  land  untenanted  in  other  districts. 
Its  purpose  was  to  slice  up  the  land  and  put  people  upon  it.  That 
Board  has  been  in  existence,  not  for  ten  years,  but  for  twenty-three 
years,  and  in  the  very  most  congested  county,  where  its  services 
were  the  most  necessary,  it  has  failed  to  act.  If  this  will  be  relevant 
and  agreeable  to  the  Commission,  I  will  just  explain  this.  The 
County  Mayo  was  like  a  running  sore  on  the  face  of  Ireland.     All 


495 

the  poor  people  were  crowded  onto  gravelly,  hilly,  and  barren  land, 
and  large  tracts  of  good  land  without  a  resident  on  them. 
Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Unfertile  land? 

A.     Unfertile  land.     I  went  down  there  in  the  autumn  of  1917.    I 
was  invited  down  there  because  I  have  spent  almost  my  whole  life 
on   the   question    of   the   land.      All    my    people    and    my    life    and 
interests  are  centered  there.     I  stopped  at  Westport  town  and  drove 
out  to  a  mountainous  district  to  the  southern  part  of  County  Mayo. 
I   drove  through   plenty   of  good  land   without   inhabitants.      I   got 
onto  a  bog  road  covered  with  heather,  which  not  even  catttle  will 
eat — it  is  used  for  bedding  only.     I  drove  on  for  miles,  and  came 
on  to  the  unfortunate  village  concerned.     It  was  a  village  of  fifty- 
two  families  up  on  a  mountain  side  where  nothing  grew  but  heather 
and  rushes.     The  people  came  down  to  meet  me  when  they  saw  me 
coming.     The  landlord  also  came  down  with  them — a  quite  unusual 
thing,  for  he  was  a  poor  man  too.     There  was  not  a  thing  to  be 
seen — not  a  thing  growing  that  a  beast  could  eat.     There  were  a 
few  sheep,  a  few  asses,  and  a  few  goats.    What  was  up  in  the  cabins 
I  do  not  know.     The  landlord,  John  OTJowd,  came  up  to  me  and 
asked  me  if  I  was  going  to  attack  him.     I  said  no,  I  was  not  going 
to  attack  any  man.     I  wanted  only  justice.     He  said,  "I  am  willing 
to  sell.     There  (pointing  to  the  right)   is  a  tract  of  good  land  pur- 
chased by  the  Congested  Districts  Board  fifteen  years  ago  for  dis- 
tribution, but  it  is  held  by  the  Board  and  let  out  to  grazers  and  let 
out   to   pasture   instead   of   distributed."      On   the   right   was   Lord 
Luken's  estate,  and  on  the  left  was  Lord  Sligo's  estate,  bought  up 
bv  this  Board.    The  Board  bought  up  this  good  land  and  would  not 
distribute  it.     He  did  not  know  why.     I  found  out  afterwards  why 
it  was  not  distributed.     He  said,  "I  want  to  sell  my  land  and  get 
rid  of  it,  for  it  is  a  terrible  worry.     Otherwise  I  must  turn  the  people 
out  and  burn  their  houses."     "Very  well,"  I  said,  "we  will  see  what 
the  Board  will  do."     I  dictated  a  paper  on  the  mountainside  to  the 
shorthand  writer,  a  memorial  to  the  district  Board,  a  very  respectful 
memorial  but  very  strong  in  the  facts,  as  I  will  admit.     The  land- 
lord was  the  first  to  sign  that  memorial.     It  was  signed  by  all  the 
fifty-two  tenants,  one  by  one.     Was  not  that   a  strong  memorial? 
It  called  on  the  Board  for  distribution  of  the  land  bought  up  and 
held  by  the  Board  for  fifteen  years,  and  still  held  by  the  Board. 
I  went  back  to  Sligo  and  got  copies  of  the  memorial   printed,  and 
went  back  to  Dublin  the  next  day  and  met  two  officials  of  the  Board. 
One  was  a  towering  bully  named  Henry  Doran.     He  took  up  the 
attitude  of  a  bully  of  abuse  and  insult.     He  used  the  language  of 
the  old  landlord  class  of  the  worst  type.     Of  course  we  had  to  get 


496 

rid  of  him.  The  other  member  of  the  Board  was  Mr.  Micks,  who 
stayed  with  me— a  very  pleasant  man  to  speak  with.  But  he  said, 
"We  cannot  do  what  you  want.  The  Government  will  not  allow  us. 
It  will  not  give  us  cash  for  the  purpose,  although  it  is  bound  by 
Act  of  Parliament  to  do  it."  So  he  politely  told  me  that  nothing 
would  be  done.  Mr.  Doran  today  is  Sir  Henry  Doran  and  Mr. 
Micks  is  still  Mr.  Micks.  That  is  the  way  a  kindly  attitude  toward 
the  people  is  rewarded.  The  population  on  the  mountainside  is 
still  without  land. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  was  the  motive  for  non-action? 
A.     Mr.  Meeks  told  me  the  Government  refused  to  advance  the 
necessary  money. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  What  were  they  using  the  land  for  then — 
grazing  purposes? 

A.     Yes,  for  grazing  purposes. 
Q.     Whose   cattle? 

A.  The  owners  of  the  cattle  in  all  probability  did  not  live  in 
the  same  county. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Is  this  a  case  where  the  administrators  of  the 
law  were  negligent,  or  is  it  a  typical  case  of  the  way  the  law  was 
administered  everywhere? 

A.     And  is  administered.     It  is  a  typical  case. 
Q.     So  that  no  money  anywhere  was  appropriated  under  this  Act? 
A.     That  would  not  be  correct. 

Q.  Suppose  the  British  answer  is:  The  money  ran  out  and  we 
did  not  have  enough  to  cover  this  land? 

A.  Oh,  the  money  was  advanced  for  purchasers  of  the  land  who 
had  influence  with  the  Board.  That  was  the  explanation.  The 
money  did  not  run  out.  Then,  too,  this  Mr.  Doran,  Sir  Henry 
Doran,  had  cattle  of  some  friends  of  his  on  this  land. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  this  the  explanation?     The  Land  Board 
bought  the  land  for  grazing  purposes  and  turned  it  over  to  some 
friends  of  theirs  for  grazing.     Is  this  the  explanation? 
A.     That  is  the  explanation  to  some  extent. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Would  they  have  to  pay  anything  for 
the  purposes  of  grazing? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  they  had  to  pay  the  Board. 

Q.  I  want  to  get  this  right.  The  Board  got  this  land  fifteen 
years  before  and  was  to  divide  this  land  up,  and  the  owner  did  not 
get  paid  for  it? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  the  owners,  Lord  Lukens  and  Lord  Sligo,  got  paid 
for  it. 

Q.     But  where  does  the  second  payment  come? 


197 

A.  They  did  not  have  money  to  put  tenants  on  the  land,  to  build 
homes  and  start  crops. 

Q.     Then   the   land   was   lying   idle? 

A.  Yes,  so  far  as  tillage  was  concerned.  Instead  of  benefiting 
the  poor  people  in  the  congested  districts,  it  was  turned  over  to  the 
friends  of  the  Board  for  grazing  purposes.  The  excuse  was  that 
they  could  not  slice  the  land  up  in  small  holdings  because  they  had 
no  more  money.  I  should  have  said  that  in  my  memorial  I  offered 
on  behalf  of  the  poor  tenants  to  take  the  land  at  its  full  value  and 
not  require  houses  to  be  built  upon  it,  if  that  was  the  difficulty,  and 
to  work  the  land  from  their  present  cabins  until  they  were  able  to 
make  some  money  and  build  houses  for  themselves.  I  made  it 
wholly  unnecessary  for  the  Government  to  advance  money  to  build 
houses. 

IRISH  PEOPLE  COMPELLED  TO  MIGRATE  TO  MAKE 
A  LIVING 

It  is  only  just  to  these  poor  people  to  say  that  in  all  my  travels 
through  Ireland,  I  never  met  a  more  gentle-mannered  people,  a 
more  sweet-mannered  people,  than  those  people  on  this  mountain- 
side. They  were  beautiful  in  appearance  and  sweet  and  kind  in 
manner,  and  they  never  asked  me  to  put  a  thing  in  that  memorial 
but  what  was  strictly  in  accord  with  justice  and  equity.  They,  of 
course,  have  never  been  able  to  make  a  living  from  their  mountain 
holdings  at  all.  They  have  been  migratory  laborers  to  England 
and  Scotland.  That  position  becomes  more  difficult  as  the  relations 
between  the  two  countries  become  more  strained.  As  migratory 
laborers  they  receive  the  least  possible  consideration.  They  are 
housed  in  a  terrible  way — in  a  way  often  exposed  to  Parliament  as 
a  violation  of  all  sanitary  laws.  But  they  bear  their  treatment  and 
make  a  little  money  and  go  back. 

And  that  raises  a  question  as  to  why  the  Irish  people  emigrate 
and  still  continue  to  emigrate.  What  could  those  young  men  in 
those  cabins  do?  Suppose  there  were  three  or  four  young  men  in 
one  family.  What  could  they  do  but  go  out  of  that  country,  where 
they  were  denied  an  existence  before  their  eyes,  to  another  country 
where  there  was  opportunity? 

BEST  LAND  IN  IRELAND  HELD  FROM  PEOPLE  IN 
LARGE  UNTILLED  ESTATES 

In  that  same  visit  to  County  Mayo  I  visited  a  district  where  I 
found   a  farm   comprising  the   very  best   land   in   that   part   of  the 


498 

county,  five  thousand  acres,  owned  and  grazed  by  one  man  named 
Carson.  Not  a  solitary  day's  work  given  on  that  land  to  anybody — 
to  grade  it  off  or  build  fences — not"  a  single  day's  work  given  to 
anybody.  Five  thousand  acres  in  the  possession  of  one  man,  after 
the  Congested  Districts  Board  has  been  more  than  twenty  years  in 
existence  for  the  special  purpose  of  solving  that  problem. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Are  most  of  the  owners  of  the  large  estates 
Englishmen  ? 

A.     Oh,  no,  not  necessarily. 

Q.     They  are  Irishmen  as  well  as  Englishmen? 

A.  Yes,  Irishmen  as  well  as  Englishmen.  These  ranches  are 
usually  rented. 

Q.     Who  is  the  ultimate  owner? 

A.     Some  corporation. 

Q.     Is  it  a  case  of  alien  landlordism? 

A.     Oh,  no.     Alien  landlordism  is  a  thing  of  the  past. 

Q.  How  many  acres  are  held  in  these  big  estates?  Does  it  run 
into  the  thousands  of  acres?  Or  does  it  reach  the  hundred 
thousands? 

A.  Oh,  no;  the  island  is  not  big  enough  for  that.  I  should 
inform  the  Commission  that  there  was  no  vacant  spot  in  Ireland 
that  was  not  occupied  in  days  gone  by.  It  was  occupied,  and  then 
cleared  off  by  each  succeeding  famine. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  about  these  large  estates  in  County  Mayo. 
What  per  cent,  of  the  land  is  held  in  this  district  in  these  large 
estates? 

A.  I  am  afraid,  sir,  that  you  have  missed  the  point.  The  point 
was  that  the  Congested  Districts  Board  has  existed  to  relieve  con- 
gestion, and  it  has  not  done  it.  If  you  want  to  ask  about  the  parts 
of  Ireland  that  need  such  relief  other  than  this  particular  district, 
I  am  equally  ready  to  answer.  In  Meath,  in  my  own  county  of 
West  Meath,  and  in  Kildare — there  are  three  counties  lying  side  by 
side — land  that  within  the  memory  of  living  men  uesd  to  be  great 
wheat  land  is  now  lying  absolutely  untilled. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Grazing  land  now? 

A.     All  grazing. 

Q.     A  great  part  of  the  county  is  grazed? 

A.  A  great  part  of  the  county  is  grazed,  and  always  the  best 
land — land  that  you  could  cut  with  a  spade — just  with  a  spade — 
land  without  a  stone  in  it — beautiful  land. 

Q.  Is  a  third  of  the  land  of  Ireland  held  out  of  cultivation 
that  way? 


499 

A.  It  would  be  hard  to  say.  I  do  not  suppose  that  much.  It 
would  not  be  that  much.     But  so  much  of  it  is  the  best  land. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  you  are  offering  this  evidence  lo 
show  the  misgovernment  of  Ireland,  and  that  the  administration  of 
this  law  has  been  in  the  hands  of  people  who  have  not  admin- 
istered it. 

A.     That  is  it.    That  is  it. 

Q.     It  is  evidence  of  misgovernment? 

LORD  FRENCH  REITERATES  ENGLISH  POLICY  OF 
DESTROYING  IRISH  RACE 

A.  Yes,  sir,  indeed.  Along  the  line  of  misgovernment,  your 
remark  reminds  me  of  a  very  curious  thing.  We  maintain  that 
apart  from  money  and  apart  even  from  property,  the  people  of  a 
country  are  its  greatest  wealth. 

Senator  Walsh:  They  ought  to  be  more  the  concern  of  government 
than  the  property. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  than  the  property.  It  is  a  policy  that  has  been 
pursued,  and  therefore  must  be  the  doctrine  held  by  English  rulers 
of  Ireland,  because  over  and  over  again,  as  I  said,  the  policy  has 
been  a  continuity,  to  destroy  the  Irish  race.  I  have  been  prevented 
from  supporting  that  from  the  past.  I  support  it  now  from  the 
present,  from  a  statement  of  Lord  French.  Lord  French  stated  two 
years  ago  in  public  that,  "What  is  amiss  with  Ireland  today  is  that 
there  are  two  hundred  thousand  young  men  too  many  in  it."  What 
would  be  thought  in  a  properly  self-governed  country  of  the  head 
of  the  government  giving  expression  to  such  a  sentiment?  There 
are  two  hundred  thousand  young  men  too  many  in  Ireland! 

HIGHEST   WELFARE   OF   A   UNITED    PEOPLE  THE 
AIM  OF  IRISH  REPUBLIC 

We  want  to  keep  these  young  men  in  Ireland.  They  are  our 
greatest  property  and  our  greatest  hope,  and  we  want  to  make  it 
possible  for  these  young  men  to  earn  a  decent  living  in  Ireland. 
We  want  to  break  up  the  land  first,  so  that  they  can  live  happy, 
self-contented  lives  in  their  own  country  instead  of  going  to  Eng- 
land or  Scotland  or  to  American  cities,  perhaps  to  live  in  slums. 
When  we  have  established  our  Republic,  we  hope  to  attract  home 
some  of  the  young  men  who  have  picked  up  in  this  or  other  coun- 
tries special  abilities  and  knowledge.  We  want  them  to  come  home 
and  help;  and  we  want  people  of  every  race  who  have  the  interests 


500 

of  mankind  at  heart  to  realize  that  Ireland  is  to  he  a  factor  in  the 
civilization  of  the  future;  that  it  is  not  to  he  a  state  of  rags  and 
tags  and  slavery,  but  a  country  of  art  and  education  and  everything 
that  goes  not  only  to  make  the  people  of  the  country  prosperous, 
but  to  make  them  tasty,  healthy,  and  self-sufficient.  These  are  our 
aims.  It  may  seem  silly  of  an  Irishman  coming  here  to  your  capital 
to  express  such  platitudes — things  that  ought  to  be  the  case  in  every 
well -ruled  country.  We  want  them  to  be  the  case  in  Ireland.  We 
have  put  all  the  ability  that  we  possess  and  are  capable  of  in  this 
movement.  We  have  sunk  all  the  differences  of  classes  and  creeds 
and  sects.  We  are  done  with  them  forever.  We  are  completely 
done  with  everything  of  that  sort.  Difficult  problems  will  probably 
arise  in  the  future  in  Ireland,  as  in  every  other  country.  Difficulties 
naturally  will  arise.  Some  of  the  people  will  want  one  thing  done 
in  some  way,  and  some  in  another.  When  we  have  achieved  our 
purpose  there  will  be  a  cleavage  differing  entirely  from  that  of  the 
past.  We  have  merged  everything  for  the  present  for  the  one  goal 
of  getting  the  enemy  out. 

FAVORABLE   POSITION   OF  ULSTER   IN  THE 
REPUBLIC 

Not  only  that,  but  as  I  have  said  awhile  ago  in  briefer  form,  so 
far  from  we  proving  aggressors  to  any  country,  or,  still  less,  to 
any  class  in  our  own,  we  mean  and  intend  that  all  that  is  in  our 
power  will  go  into  the  great  effort  of  wiping  out  these  artificial, 
factitious  differences  that  have  been  created  by  our  common  foe, 
uniting  with  them  so  that  when  these  differences  arise  in  the  future 
in  independent  Ireland,  that  solid  phalanx  from  Ulster,  accustomed 
to  industry,  accustomed  to  a  kind  of  life  something  like  you  know 
here,  they  will  be  the  strongest  power  in  our  national  assembly. 
And  we  wish  it  to  be  so,  and  we  intend  that  it  shall  be  so.  We 
Republicans  will  have  our  differences,  perhaps  keen  differences, 
legislative  and  otherwise.  But  we  are  all  Irishmen,  and  we  will 
settle  our  differences  of  opinion  between  ourselves  for  the  good  of 
our  country.  But  there  will  be  no  religious  difficulty  with  our 
fellow  countrymen  from  the  northeast  counties.  These  we  assume 
will  come  in  in  a  more  or  less  solid  mass.  We  need  them.  They 
have  qualities  that  the  people  of  other  counties  have  not  had,  be- 
cause they  have  had  opportunities  to  better  their  skill  that  we  have 
not.  And  we  are  determined  that  they  shall  benefit  largely  by  the 
independence  of  our  country.  They  realize  now  that,  whereas  Eng- 
land, in  the  year  1913,  was  taking  out  of  Ireland  before  the  war 


501 

eleven  million  pounds  in  annual  taxation,  she  is  taking  out  of  Ire- 
land  now  forty-three  million  pounds.  Most  of  that  money  is  spent 
for  imperial  purposes  in  different  parts  of  the  world.  It  is  not  being 
spent  for  Ireland.  And  all  men— Catholics,  Protestants,  Unionists, 
Republicans,  and  whatever  they  may  be— know  that  they  and  their 
families  and  their  posterity  will  be  better  off  when  all  that  money 
is  spent  within  the  shores  of  Ireland.     That  is  what  we  aim  at. 

EUROPEAN  STATES  SUBSIST  ON  SMALLER  TAXES 
THAN  ENGLAND   TAKES   FROM   IRELAND 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Forty-three  million  pounds  of  taxation 
now? 

A.     Forty-three  million  pounds  of  taxation  for  the  present  year. 

Q.     That  is  taken  out  in  income  taxes,  excise  taxes,  and  customs? 

A.     All  taxation. 

Q.     Does  that  include  the  rates? 

A.  Oh,  no;  the  rates  are  different  from  taxation.  They  are 
raised  differently  and  spent  differently. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  You  said  that  the  government  of 
several  of  the  countries  of  Europe  actually  required  less  money  for 
their  operation  than  England  is  now  taking  out  of  Ireland  in  taxes. 
What  countries  are  those? 

A.  All  the  Scandinavian  countries — Norway,  Sweden,  Denmark; 
Switzerland,  Rumania,  Greece — we  can  compare  with  all  of  these. 

Q.     Your  fiscal  needs  are  not  as  great  as  theirs? 

A.  The  Statesmen's  Year  Book  would  be  very  useful  for  that 
purpose.  It  would  show  you  comparative  costs  of  government.  But 
it  would  not  be  very  useful  for  my  purpose,  in  showing  England's 
financial  relations  with  Ireland. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Now,  Mr.  Ginnell,  have  you  something  that 
you  want  to  dictate  to  the  stenographer? 

UNLIKE  ENGLAND,  GAELIC  IRELAND  HAS  NEVER 
COUNTENANCED  RELIGIOUS  PERSECUTION 

A.  I  really  do  not  feel  in  a  condition  to  do  it  now.  I  am  very 
sorry,  members  of  the  Commission,  that  I  have  not  been  able  to 
develop  all  phases  of  this  question.  With  regard  to  religious  fric- 
tion, I  have  been  handed  today,  and  I  fear  I  have  lost  it,  an  extract 
from  the  New  York  World  to  the  effect  that  a  Jew  has  been  ill- 
treated  in  Dublin.  Now,  I  want  to  emphatically  deny,  not  with  any 
special  knowledge,  but  with  a  knowledge  of  what  England  is  doing, 


502 

I  want  to  emphatically  deny  that  any  Irishman  has  persecuted  any 
person  whatever  on  account  of  creed  or  race.  To  this  day,  no  one 
can  point  out  to  me  any  single  instance  where  anyone  has  been 
ill-treated  on  account  of  religion  or  race  in  Gaelic  Ireland,  in  Cath- 
olic Ireland.  There  have  been  things  developed  in  Belfast  which 
I  do  not  want  to  touch  upon,  but  the  aggression  there  is  not  on  our 
side.  In  the  time  of  Queen  Mary,  she  drove  Protestants  out  of 
England  when  she  wanted  to  drive  England  over  to  Catholicism. 
She  drove  them  out  of  England,  and  they  came  over  to  Ireland  for 
safe  refuge.  The  Quakers  were  driven  out  of  England,  and  they 
came  over  to  Ireland  and  established  a  school  at  Ballitore  in  County 
Kildare  which  became  famous  for  having  given  a  portion  of  his 
education  to  Edmund  Burke. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  never  a  pogrom  against  the  Jews 
in  Ireland? 

A.     I  am  coming  to  that. 

Q.     But  just  answer  the  question. 

A.  Oh,  never,  never.  The  suggestion  is  horrible.  The  sugges- 
tion is  horrible.  I  wish  my  answer  would  be  taken  down.  The 
very  suggestion  is  horrible.  No  pogrom  against  anybody  of  any 
religion  or  on  any  religious  grounds  has  ever  occurred  in  Gaelic 
Ireland.  The  Friends,  as  they  call  themselves,  have  always  been 
respected  in  Ireland.  One  of  my  best  friends  was  Alfred  Wells, 
a  Quaker.  The  Huguenots  were  driven  out  of  France  and  came  to 
Ireland,  and  are  respected  to  this  day.  We  still  have  little  colonies 
of  these  French  Protestants.  There  are  a  large  number  of  Jews  at 
present  in  Cork  and  other  big  centers,  and  of  course  they  never 
have  been  persecuted  at  all,  and  have  become  wealthy  people. 
People  from  Ulster,  Protestants  from  Ulster,  come  down  in  the 
south,  naturally  and  properly,  to  exercise  their  skill  either  as  trades- 
men in  different  trades  or  as  soap  manufacturers.  They  become 
wealthy  and  they  prosper  more  than  any  other  people  in  the  com- 
munity. They  are  given  their  due  and  full  share  of  representation 
on  local  bodies.  The  money  passing  over  their  counters  is  the 
money  of  Irish  Catholics.  Can  anyone  call  that  treatment  perse- 
cution? No.  The  greatest  enemy  of  Ireland  cannot  produce  a  man 
who  can  say  that  he  has  been  persecuted  in  all  his  life. 

I  am  sorry  that  I  have  transgressed  so  much  upon  your  time. 

The  Commission:  No,  not  at  all.  It  is  a  very  interesting  state- 
ment that  you  have  made. 


503 

MURDER,  TORTURE,  AND  ROBBERY  BY  BLACK- 
AND-TANS 

Senator  Walsh:  I  want  to  call  your  attention.  Mr.  Chairman,  and 
I  want  to  have  it  heard  by  the  other  bodies  represented  here,  that  1 
have  received  several  letters — I  have  one  now — from  an  American 
woman  in  which  she  calls  attention  to  her  experiences  in  Ireland. 
Here  is  a  very  recent  letter. in  which  she  recites  the  shooting  by  sol- 
diers of  a  young  boy  who  was  swimming  in  a  river  in  Ireland.  She 
also  recites  several  other  experiences  and  incidents  showing  ex- 
treme cruelty  and  atrocities  occurring  in  other  cases.  Here  is  a  para- 
graph from  the  letter: 

"In  another  place  not  far  from  X the  Black-and-Tans  dragged 

a  young  man,  whose  father  you  know,  from  his  bed  while  he  was 
in  the  act  of  prayer,  struck  him  several  times,  breaking  his  jaw, 
and  then  riddled  him  with  bullets,  because  they  were  disappointed 
in  not  finding  on  his  person  or  in  his  house  some  incriminating 
evidence  of  Sinn  Fein  sympathies. 

"Last  evening  while  leaving  church  your  old  friend  Mr.  Hayes 
was  seized  by  Black-and-Tans  and  killed  in  the  Square.  These 
London  Black-and-Tans  took  some  young  men  of  the  town  and  made 
them  wallow  in  the  rancid  pool  in  the  market  place.  They  were 
made  to  walk  on  their  hands,  the  Black-and-Tans  holding  them  by 
their  legs.  Then  they  were  thrown  into  the  river  and  left  to  swim 
with  all  their  strength  in  order  to  get  out  alive. 

"It  is  a  common  occurrence  to  have  people  relieved  of  their 
money  by  these  Black-and-Tans.  They  are  simply  highwaymen, 
and  when  they  return  to  the  London  slums  which  breed  them,  their 
pockets  will  be  well  garnished  by  the  money  of  the  people  in  this 
district.  People  have  to  hide  their  money  so  that  it  will  not  be 
taken  from  them  when  they  are  held  up  and  searched  by  the  Black- 
and-Tans.     In  riding  from  X the  other  day  I  hid  my  money  in 

my  hair.    However,  I  was  relieved  of  one  pound  I  had  in  my  glove. 

"The  Black-and-Tans  are  also  very  fond  of  raiding  public  houses 
— rum  houses,  as  we  call  them  in  America." 

Now,  that  letter  is  from  an  American  woman.  Cannot  you  or 
some  person  interested  in  this  inquiry  produce  for  us  a  series  of 
facts  showing  actual  concrete  instances  of  such  occurrences — facts 
stated  by  eye  witnesses  or  by  those  who  were  in  the  immediate 
vicinity? 

Mr.  Basil  Manly:  That  is  what  we  are  attempting  to  do.  We  have 
introduced  no  witnesses  before  the  Commission  except  eye  witnesses. 

Senator  Walsh:  You  see  how  the  broad  statement  that  people  are 
being  held   up   means  nothing.      But   the   instances   and   times   and 


504 

places  and  names  of  people  who  have  been  held  up  is  convincing — 
the  times  that  boys  are  taken  out  on  the  square  and  are  compelled 
to  walk  on  their  hands  while  their  feet  are  held  up  by  the  Black- 
and-Tans—cases  like  that  reported  by  those  who  witnessed  it 
happen. 

DIFFICULTY    OF    OBTAINING    FIRST-HAND 
EVIDENCE  OF  ATROCITIES  IN  IRELAND 

Mr.  Manly:  You  must  realize  that  all  information  of  that  kind  is 
from  two  sources:  either  the  press  from  Ireland  and  the  dispatches 
from  Ireland,  or  else  the  official  reports  of  Dail  Eireann,  which  is 
the  admitted  authority  in  Ireland.  And  then  we  get  only  such  re- 
ports as  the  British  authorities  let  come  through.  No  single  person 
can  be  an  eye  witness  to  all  these  things,  and  it  is  only  by  accumu- 
lating the  evidence  of  single  individuals  as  we  have  done  in  the 
past,  and  as  we  hope  to  do  in  the  future,  that  we  can  place  such 
facts  before  you.     But  one  other  fact  might  be  mentioned. 

Senator  Walsh:  Now,  this  letter  is  from  an  American  woman. 
And  I  saw  another  statement  of  a  person  that  had  just  traveled  in 
Ireland  that  for  thirty-three  days  he  had  not  slept  in  the  same 
bed  twice,  due  to  the  danger  of  raids  by  the  Black-and-Tans.  There 
must  be  hundreds  if  not  thousands  of  these  statements.  Could  not 
they  be  tabulated  in  some  way? 

Mr.  Manly:  We  have  not  introduced  material  from  newspaper 
accounts,  but  only  from  direct  investigation.  We  have  established 
a  system  by  which  we  try  to  get  in  direct  touch  with  every  person 
who  recently  has  been  in  Ireland,  either  through  the  public  press, 
or  through  letters,  which  we  have  received  by  scores,  I  might  say, 
telling  of  people  who  have  been  in  Ireland.  And  as  rapidly  as  we 
can  get  in  touch  with  them  and  investigate  them,  we  are  bringing 
them  before  the  Commission.  But  we  do  not  want  to  bring  before 
the  Commission  any  witness  who  is  not  able  to  state  facts  of  his  own 
direct  knowledge  or  of  his  own  personal  experience;  nor  would  we 
attempt  to  put  in  a  statement,  I  think,  as  to  the  number  of  such 
people  or  the  number  of  such  occurrences  based  only  on  newspaper 
reports.  For  I  do  not  think  that  this  inquiry  would  have  the  dignity 
or  the  value  that  I  believe  it  should  have  if  it  were  to  rely  upon 
such  sources  of  information.  But  I  can  assure  the  Commission  that 
as  rapidly  as  these  individual  cases  can  be  investigated  and  the 
individuals  brought  to  Washington,  we  will  place  the  evidence  be- 
fore the  Commission.  Take,  for  instance,  the  case  of  Father  Dele- 
hanty,  the  gentleman  whom,  I  believe,  you  referred  to,  who  said 
that  he  had  not  been  able  to  sleep  in  the  same  bed  at  night  for 


505 

thirty-three  consecutive  days.  We  have  tried  to  locate  him.  But 
these  men  come  in,  and  they  have  no  central  place  at  which  to 
report.  We  are  arranging  to  have  a  man  meet  the  incoming  ships 
and  get  in  touch  with  these  people  as  rapidly  as  they  arrive;  but  it 
is  a  very  great  task. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  appreciate  that  it  is  a  very  difficult  task,  but  I 
should  think  that  the  Republic  officials  of  Ireland,  or  some  other 
officials,  could  get  together  data  as  to  the  number  of  buildings  de- 
stroyed or  houses  burned  or  civilians  murdered. 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  those  matters  come  to  us  at  the  office  in  the 
bulletins  of  the  Irish  Government. 

Senator  Walsh:  That  is  only  the  conclusion  of  one  of  the  parties. 
What  I  say  to  you  I  want  to  announce  the  same  latitude  for  the 
other  side.  We  want  data  as  to  the  number  of  Black-and-Tans  shot, 
and  the  like. 

Mr.  Ginnell :  We  would  like  to  have  such  information  too. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  there  is  some  official  keeping  track  of 
these  things  for  the  English  government  too. 

Mr.  Ginnell :  I  don't  think  the  Commission  realizes  that  any  such 
document  as  a  tabulated  statement  of  evidence  of  that  kind  in  Ire- 
land would  be  considered  a  seditious  document,  and  would  expose 
the  man  on  whom  it  was  found  to  be  shot. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  can  appreciate  that. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  may  say  that  we  were  in  communication  with  Mr. 
Arthur  Griffith  as  the  source  from  whom  we  would  accumulate  facts 
and  get  evidence.  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith  has  been  imprisoned,  and 
that  breaks  the  line  of  communication  from  which  we  had  hoped 
to  get  reliable  and  detailed  information. 

Mr.  Ginnell:  I  have  just  handed  in  a  telegram  which  I  received 
today  which  I  think  is  very  important — a  telegram  from  New  York- 
saying  that  the  Chicago  Tribune,  which  published  Mr.  Hamar 
Greenwood's  statement,  has  not  received  any  protest  from  any  civil- 
ized government  regarding  the  atrocities  in  Ireland.  I  must  say  I 
think  that  is  a  great  slur  upon  the  character  of  America. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  Commission  had  expected  at  the  Thursday 
hearings  tomorrow  to  present  the  witnesses  who  are  coming  on  the 
steamship  Baltic.  The  Baltic  has  been  delayed  and  will  not  arrive 
until  later  in  the  week.  It  may  be  that  these  hearings  will  have 
to  go  over  to  the  first  of  next  week.  There  will  be  hearings  here 
tomorrow  morning,  at  which  the  concluding  testimony  of  these 
hearings  will   be  presented. 

If  there  is  nothing  further,  the  session  stands  adjourned. 

4:55  P.  M. 


THIRD  HEARING 

Session  Tivo 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Thursday,  December  16,  1920. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Howe  at  10:10  A.  M. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  NELLIE  CRAVEN 

Q.  Mr.  Basil  Manly  (of  counsel)  :  Will  you  give  the  Commission 

your  name? 

A.  Nellie  Craven. 

Q.  And  your  address? 

A.  1701  Rhode  Island  Avenue,  Washington. 

Q.  Miss  Craven,  how  long  have  you  been  in  the  United  States? 

A.  I  have  been  here  thirteen  years. 

Q.  And  were  you  born  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.     When  did  you  return  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  went  back  on  the  twenty-fourth  of  July,  1920. 

Q.  And  how  long  were  you  in  Ireland? 

A.  Three  months.     I  left  there  on  the  third  of  November  of  this 

year  on  the  Baltic. 

Q.  Why  did  you  make  a  trip  to  Ireland? 

A.  I  had  a  letter  from  my  brother,  who  said  my  mother  was  not 
well,  and  he  wanted  me  to  go  over  and  see  her. 

Q.  And  what  town  were  your  parents  living  in? 

A.  Headford,  County  Galway. 

Q.  A  small  town? 

A.  Yes,  about  eighteen  miles  out  of  Galway. 

Q.  Is  Headford  situated  on  the  main  road? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  on  the  public  road  from  Galway  to  Westport. 

ONE  POLICEMAN  FOR  EVERY  TEN  INHABITANTS 

Q.  Were  there  any  police  or  Black-and-Tans  stationed  in  Head- 
ford? 

A.  There  were  about  thirty  police,  but  no  Black-and-Tans  when 
I  went  there. 

Q.     About  how  large  a  town  is  Headford? 

506 


507 

A.     About  three  or  four  hundred. 

Q.     So  that  there  was  one  police  for  every  ten   inhabitants  of 
the  town? 
A.     Yes. 

COUSIN'S  HOME  TERRORIZED  BY  BLACK-AND- 
TANS 

Q.  What  was  your  own  experience  and  the  experiences  of  your 
family  with  respect  to  the  police  and  the  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  When  I  first  went  home  there  was  quiet.  But  about  the 
thirteenth  of  September  the  curfew  was  enforced  in  Galway.  My 
cousin  lives  there,  Michael  Walsh,  and  his  place  was  raided  on  the 
twentieth  of  September.  They  broke  into  the  house  and  broke  in 
the  windows  and  shutters.  He  was  not  there.  They  went  upstairs 
and  searched  the  rooms;  and  then  they  were  downstairs  in  the  public 
house  or  saloon  shooting  and  yelling.  Then  after  a  half  hour  they 
came  upstairs  again.  One  of  them  was  swinging  his  revolver,  and 
the  oldest,  a  boy  about  thirteen,  went  on  his  knees  to  him  and  said, 
"Don't  shoot!"  and  he  said,  "No,  kiddie,  I  will  not  shoot  if  you 
will  promise  to  be  loyal  to  the  King."  Mrs.  Walsh  was  there,  but 
they  did  not  know  it  was  she.  She  begged  them  to  withdraw.  Then 
they  went  downstairs  and  stayed  there  for  about  an  hour  again,  and 
then  went  away. 

BRUTALITIES  INFLICTED  ON  BROTHER 

The  seventeenth  of  September  the  Black-and-Tans  came  to  our 
place  at  home.  It  was  about  one  o'clock,  and  there  were  seven  of 
us  who  had  just  set  out  with  our  lunch  for  a  little  trip.  There  were 
three  ahead  of  us,  and  the  other  four  of  us  were  coming  in  the 
rear.  So  the  three  ahead  of  us  ran  into  this  lorry  of  Black-and- 
Tans.  They  held  my  brother,  and  the  sister  and  the  other  brother 
came  back  and  said  that  my  brother  was  taken.  So  I  went  up  there 
and  met  two  R.  I.  C.  men  and  I  asked  them  what  the  charges  against 
my  brother  were  and  what  they  wanted  with  him.  They  said  for 
me  not  to  advance  any  further.  And  he  said,  "Are  you  a  Sinn 
Feiner?"  and  I  said  I  was.  And  he  asked  my  sister,  and  she  said 
she  was.  And  he  said,  "That  is  enough.  You  will  get  him  in  a  half 
hour  dead  or  alive."    So  I  came  down  and  told  my  mother. 

Q.     Did  they  take  him  away? 

A.  Yes.  And  we  went  back  after  a  bit  and  found  him  crawling 
along  the  road,  and  we  said,  "What  is  the  matter  with  you?"  and 


508 

he  said,  "I  don't  know.  I  can't  tell  you."  And  we  found  two  of 
his  teeth  were  knocked  out. 

Q.     He  was  unable  to  walk? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  unable  to  walk.  About  an  hour  later  they  came 
and  surrounded  the  house  again,  and  said,  "Who  lives  here?"  and 
I  said,  "Cravens."  And  he  said,  "What  people  live  here?"  and  I 
said,  "Two  boys  and  three  girls."  And  he  said,  "Where  are  the 
boys?"  and  I  said,  "One  of  them  is  inside.  You  have  been  beating 
him."  And  he  said,  "Show  him  to  me."  And  he  looked  at  him 
and  said,  "He  is  faking."  And  he  searched  the  beds  and  things, 
and  the  only  thing  they  found  was  some  songs  of  Easter  Week. 

The  next  day  my  brother  said  what  happened  to  him.  They  took 
his  pocket  book  with  seventeen  shillings,  put  him  against  the  wall, 
and  shot  three  times  over  his  head.  One  of  them  undressed  him, 
and  his  hands  were  put  between  his  legs,  and  he  was  made  to  bend 
over,  and  they  beat  him  with  a  belt.     And  his  watch  was  gone. 

Q.     How  did  he  lose  his  teeth? 

A.  I  cannot  say  exactly  whether  he  was  hit  with  a  closed  fist 
or  the  butt  of  a  rifle. 

Q.     That  was  when? 

A.     That  was  on  the  seventeenth  of  September. 

Q.     Did  he  ever  recover  his  watch  or  his  money? 

A.     No,  no.     So  on  the  nineteenth  in  Galway — 

BLACK-AND-TANS  STEAL  WHILE  RAIDING  HOME 

Q.  Just  one  moment  before  you  leave  that.  Did  you  find  after 
this  raid  on  your  house  that  any  of  the  articles  were  missing  from 
the  house? 

A.  Yes,  there  we're  ten  shillings  that  my  mother  had  left  in  the 
cupboard  somewhere,  and  some  small  pins  belonging  to  the  girls. 

Q.     Gold  pins  or  jewelry  of  some  kind? 

A.     Yes,  gold  pins. 

Q.  What  was  the  conduct  of  the  Black-and-Tans  when  they  were 
making  the  search  in  your  house?     What  was  their  language? 

A.     It  was  not  very  good.     Their  language  was  very  revolting. 

Q.     It  was  rough? 

A.     Very  rough. 

Q.     Was  the  younger  brother  connected  with  any  organization? 

A.     No,  he  was  not  a  member  of  the  volunteers. 

Q.     Was  he  in  any  organization? 

A.     No,  he  wasn't  in  any  organization  at  all.     He  told  them  his 


509 

sympathies  were  with  the  Sinn  Feiners,  but  he  was  not  connected 
with  them  at  all. 

Q.     Had  your  older  brother  been  connected  with  them  at  all? 

A.     Yes,  my  older  brother  was  a  Volunteer. 

Q.     Had  there  been  any  proclamation  against  him  at  all? 

A.  Well,  that  afternoon,  when  they  searched  the  place,  they  said 
they  didn't  have  the  right  man;  that  there  was  another  one. 

Q.  After  beating  up  your  younger  brother,  they  said  they  didn't 
have  the  right  man? 

A.  Yes.  after  beating  him  up  they  said  they  didn't  have  the 
right  one. 

COUSIN  DRAGGED  FROM  SHOP  AND  MURDERED 

On  the  nineteenth  of  October  my  cousin — 

Q.     1920? 

A.  1920.  There  were  five  men  went  in  and  told  him  it  was  time 
to  close  his  place  up. 

Q.     What  was  his  name? 

A.     Michael  Walsh. 

Q.     Where  was  his  place  of  business? 

A.     High  Street,  Galway. 

Q.     What  time  was  it? 

A.  It  was  about  five  minutes  to  ten  at  night.  So  when  the  cus- 
tomers who  were  in  there  went  out,  these  men  held  him  and  the 
apprentice  up  and  searched  him  and  the  cash  box  and  safe  and  took 
everything  in  it. 

Q.     Took  the  money? 

A.  Took  the  money  and  checks  and  everything.  And  then  they 
told  him  they  were  going  to  take  him  with  them.  And  he  said  he 
would  like  to  take  a  little  drink  to  steady  him,  and  they  told  him 
it  was  a  waste,  because  he  was  going  to  be  dead  in  an  hour.  And 
he  said  that  he  would  like  to  see  a  priest,  and  they  said,  "To  heli 
with  the  priest";  that  they  were  worse  than  he  was.  They  took 
him  out,  and  the  apprentice  asked  the  fellow  who  was  in  command 
if  they  were  going  to  shoot  Walsh,  and  he  said,  "I  don't  know-."  In 
half  an  hour  the  four  men  came  back  and  went  upstairs  and  took 
his  overcoat,  and  told  the  apprentice  to  go  to  his  lodgings,  and  if 
he  opened  his  mouth  he  would  be  dead  in  an  hour.  The  apprentice 
knew  where  Mrs.  Walsh  was.  She  did  not  stay  in  her  own  house 
after  it  was  raided.  So  he  went  and  told  her  that  these  four  men 
had  taken  Mr.  Walsh  away  and  he  did  not  know  what  they  had  done 
with  him.     So  they  went  out  and  searched  until  morning  and  could 


510 

not  find  him.  At  six  o'clock  they  went  down  toward  the  docks  and 
found  the  body  down  by  the  sea.  It  was  a  wonder  that  it  had  not 
gone  out  to  sea.  The  military  came  and  looked  it  over  and  said 
for  them  to  wait,  that  there  would  be  an  inquiry. 

Q.     Did  they  hold  an  inquiry? 

A.     Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.     Have  you  been  able  to  get  any  word  from  there? 

A.     No,  not  since  I  came  over. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  That  was  in  Galway? 

A.     Yes,  in  Galway  City.     He  was  my  first  cousin. 

Q.     That  was  your  home? 

A.     No,  my  home  was  in  Headford,  eighteen  miles  away. 

Q.     What  kind  of  a  shop  was  that? 

A.  It  was  what  we  call  a  saloon  in  this  country,  with  a  grocery 
store  combined,  and  overhead  the  family  lived. 

Mr.  Manly:  That  is  the  ordinary  custom  in  Ireland.  The  family 
usually  lives  overhead. 

A.  Yes,  the  family  usually  lives  upstairs.  But  Mrs.  Walsh  was 
not  staying  there  then,  because  it  wasn't  safe  to  stay  there  after  dark 
after  the  first  raid. 


How  old  was  your  cousin? 

He  was  thirty-six. 

Eight  children? 

Yes,  eight  children. 

What  was  the  age  of  the  oldest? 

The  oldest  was  twelve. 

How  many  boys  and  girls? 

Seven  boys  and  one  girl. 


MURDERED  BECAUSE  ELECTED  BY  REPUBLICANS 
TO  URBAN  COUNCIL 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  never  found  out  what  they  did  at  the 
inquest? 

A.     No,  I  have  not  heard. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  charges  against  him?  Why  did  they 
murder  him? 

A.     He  was  elected  to  the  Urban  Council  by  the  Sinn  Feiners. 

Q.     He  was  a  councilman  of  that  city? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Duly  elected? 

A.     Yes,  duly  elected. 

Q.     And  he  was  serving  as  an  official  of  the  city  then? 


511 

A.  Yes,  he  was. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  large  was  that  place? 

A.  I  suppose  it  is  a  few  thousand  people.  I  could  not  exactly 
say. 

Q.  Four  or  five  thousand  people? 

A.  Yes,  I  suppose  there  would  be  four  or  five  thousand  people. 

SHOP  AND  HOME  LOOTED 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  condition  the  shop,  as  you  call  it,  was  in 
when  they  got  through? 

A.     It  was  in  a  terrible  shape. 

Q.  Did  they  destroy  the  property  and  the  groceries  and  drink 
the  liquor  that  was  in  there? 

A.  They  destroyed  practically  everything.  They  had  lorries 
outside,  and  they  took  the  tobacco  and  cigarettes  and  sugar  and 
candles  and  different  things  like  that — they  took  them  away. 

Q.     Did  they  take  away  any  of  the  liquor? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.     Did  they  destroy  everything? 

A.  Well,  practically  everything.  There  was  a  remnant  they  did 
not  destroy. 

Q.     What  was  the  condition  of  the  house  upstairs? 

A.  They  shot  through  the  ceiling  and  took  away  things  that 
were  valuable  like  ornaments. 

Q.     Did  they  destroy  the  furniture  and  bedding? 

A.     No. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  condition  of  the  body  when  found? 

A.     There  were  bullet  holes  through  it,  through  the  temples. 

Q.     Four  or  five  shots? 

A.     No,  one  shot. 

Q.     You  left  when? 

A.     On  the  third  of  November. 

Q.  And  you  believe  that  your  cousin's  wife  would  certainly  have 
written  you? 

A.     Yes,  I  do. 

Q.     But  you  have  received  no  mail? 

A.     I  have  received  no  mail. 


512 

FUNERAL   RESTRICTED    AND    DOMINATED    BY 
ARMED  TROOPS  AND  TANKS 

When  they  gave  us  the  permit  to  bury  the  body,  they  told  us  we 
could  have  any  funeral  we  wanted,  provided  there  was  no  tricolor 
or  formation. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  did  they  mean  by  that — no  tricolor  or 
formation? 

A.  We  couldn't  have  the  Republican  colors  at  the  funeral,  and 
the  Volunteers  could  not  have  a  formation. 

So  at  the  funeral  the  priest  read  a  note  from  the  military  that 
only  fifty  would  be  allowed  to  go  in  the  procession  to  the  cemetery. 
There  were  soldiers  outside  and  a  tank  and  armored  car.  They 
followed  us  to  the  cemetery  and  stood  around  while  we  buried  him. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  know  Reverend  Michael  Morley? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.     Who  was  he? 

A.     He  was  the  curate  of  our  parish  at  Headford. 

MURDER  OF  COUSIN  ABSOLUTELY  UNPROVOKED 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Had  Mr.  Walsh  done  anything  that 
would  cause  them  to  have  a  particular  desire  to  raid  his  place  or 
to  attack  him? 

A.     No,  not  a  thing. 

Q.     Did  he  participate  in  any  opposition  to  the  forces  there? 

A.     No,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.     Had  he  had  any  previous  trouble  with  them? 

A.     No,  none  at  all. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  I  suppose  he  was  acting  as  a  member  of  the 
council  of  the  city,  and  that  that  was  the  reason. 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  reason. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Was  he  a  Volunteer? 

A.     No,  no. 

Q.  His  only  connection  with  Sinn  Fein  was  that  he  was  standing 
as  a  candidate  from  that  district? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Did  these  military  who  raided  his 
place  and  took  him  away,  did  any  of  them  give  any  reason  as  to 
why  they  picked  him  out  for  attack? 

A.  They  did  say,  when  they  were  starting  after  him,  that  he  had 
shot  a  lot  of  police;  and  he  said  that  if  he  was  as  clear  of  every- 
thing as  he  was  of  that,  he  would  be  all  right.     And  they  said  some 


513 

police  had  been  shot  outside  of  Galway;  and  he  said  he  had  nothing 
whatever  to  do  with  that. 

Q.     There  were  no  arms  in   hi*   placer1 

A.      No.  no  arms  in  the  place. 

PRIEST'S    HOME    SEARCHED    AND     ROBBED    AND 
FRIEND   BRUTALLY  BEATEN 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  talk  with  Father  Morley? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.      Did  you  talk  to  him  about  the  attack  on  him? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  him  to  prepare  a  statement  and  write  it  out 
for  you? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  if  this  is  a  copy  of  his  statement  (indicating 
letter)  ? 

A.     Yes.  it  is. 

Mr.  Manly  (reading):  Statement  by  Reverend  Michael  Morley, 
B.A.,  C.C.,  dated  October  31,  1920: 

"On  the  twelfth  of  September,  1920,  shortly  after  the  burning 
and  sacking  of  Tuam  by  armed  and  uniformed  men,  an  anonymous 
letted  posted  in  Tuam  was  delivered  to  me,  stating:  Tf  anything 
happens  to  any  policeman,  you  must  die,  even  though  we  have  to 
go  to  the  chapel  to  get  you.'  On  October  third,  1920,  at  about 
12:30  midnight,  a  party  of  about  sixteen  British  soldiers  com- 
manded by  a  major  and  guarded  by  a  masked  member  of  the  R.  I. 
C.  forcibly  entered  my  house.  My  housekeeper  was  alone  in  her 
sleeping  room.  When  the  soldiers  knocked  at  her  door  she  re- 
quested two  minutes  to  dress.  The  reply  was,  'Not  one  second. 
Open  immediately  or  we  will  smash  the  door  in.'  Instantly  they 
smashed  in  the  door.  One  soldier  carried  a  flashlight,  another 
pointed  a  revolver  at  the  ^housekeeper  and  threateningly  compelled 
her  to  get  out  of  bed,  which  they  searched.  Meantime  the  other 
soldiers  scattered  all  my  books,  papers,  sacred  vessels,  and  clothes 
indiscriminately  around  the  floors.  I  politely  requested  one  soldier 
to  allow  me  to  take  my  best  clothes,  but  he  roughly  shoved  me 
aside.  Another  soldier  became  very  angry  in  discovering  some 
photographs  of  the  Republican  leaders.  He  pointed  his  revolver 
to  my  head  and  said:  T  have  a  mind  to  blow  your  damned  brains 
out.'  About  four  others,  armed  with  revolvers  in  their  hands,  si- 
lently looked  on  and  made  no  effort  to  protect  me  or  restrain  their 
comrades. 


514 

"The  raiding  party  brought  John  Flaherty  under  arrest  to  my 
house,  having  dragged  him  out  of  his  employer's  house.  When 
leaving  my  house  they  took  John  Flaherty  with  them.  None  of  the 
party  apologized  to  me.  I  then  lay  flat  on  the  floor  and  made  acts 
of  contrition.  About  ten  minutes  later  I  heard  a  piteous  appeal  for 
mercy,  and  some  blows  as  if  someone  were  being  beaten.  This 
continued  for  about  five  minutes,  and  then  all  became  silent,  until 
two  lorries  of  military  departed. 

"The  next  day  I  interviewed  John  Flaherty.  He  testified  that  the 
soldiers  alleged  he  was  an  Irish  Volunteer.  They  stripped  him 
naked  on  the  public  street.  Three  armed  soldiers  surrounded  him 
with  revolvers  pointed  at  him,  while  two  other  soldiers  beat  him, 
one  with  a  stick  and  the  other  with  a  scourge.  Flaherty's  body  was 
lacerated  and  discolored  as  a  result.  His  nerves  are  shattered  as  a 
result  of  that  night  of  horrors. 

"On  the  sixth  of  October  military  arrested  me.  I  had  a  few 
rounds  of  revolver  ammunition  as  curios.  I  was  sentenced  to  nine 
months'  hard  labor,  but  after  ten  days  in  the  Galway  jail,  the  sen- 
tence was  remitted.  Five  pounds  and  other  articles  were  missing 
out  of  my  house  after  the  raid. 

"(Signed)     Reverend  Michael  Morley,  B.A.,  C.C. 

"31st  October,  1920." 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  that  the  actual  occurrence  as  Father  Morley 
related  it  to  you? 

A.     Yes,  it  is. 

Q.     And  do  you  know  generally  that  that  is  a  true  account? 

A.     Yes,  I  do. 

Q.     That  occurred  while  you  were  in  Galway? 

A.     Yes,  it  did. 

EFFECTS  OF  BEATING  ON  BROTHER 

Q.  And  to  go  back  now.  What  was  the  condition  of  your 
brother's  body  when  he  dragged  himself  back  to  the  house? 

A.  When  we  got  him  undressed,  his  body  was  a  mass  of  welts, 
not  bleeding  but  next  to  it. 

Q.     All  over  his  body? 

A.     Yes,  all  over  his  body. 

Q.     Was  the  body  discolored  for  the  next  few  days? 

A.     Yes,  it  was.     It  was  black  and  blue. 

Q.  Had  there  been  any  attacks  on  the  police  in  Headford  prior 
to  these  happenings? 

A.     No,  Mr.  Manly,  there  had  not. 


515 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know,  there  never  had  been  any  attacks  in 
Headford  on  the  police? 

A.     None  at  all. 

Q.  Senator  Norris :  Where  is  your  brother  now,  this  one  who 
was  attacked? 

A.     He  is  in  Headford  still. 

Q.     How  long  was  he  in  bed  as  a  result  of  this  punishment? 

A.     He  was  in  bed  for  about  five  days  before  he  could  get  out. 

Q.     What  was  his  condition  then? 

A.  He  was  stiff  and  could  not  get  about  very  well.  Of  course  he 
was  terribly  nervous. 

Q.     He  is  still  there? 

A.  He  is  still  there,  but  the  sight  of  a  lorry  or  a  Black-and-Tan 
is  too  much  for  him. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Just  one  question.     Is  your  mother  a  widow? 

A.     Yes,  she  is. 

Q.     Does  your  older  brother  stay  at  home? 

A.     Not  at  night,  Mr.  Manly.     He  is  never  at  home  at  night. 

Q.  He  is  never  at  home  at  night.  So  that  your  mother  is  there 
with  a  nineteen-year-old  boy  to  protect  her? 

A.     Yes,  she  is. 

WIDOW    AND    CHILDREN    LEFT    DESTITUTE    BY 
MURDER,   ROBBERY,  AND   DESTRUCTION 

Q.  Now,  what  do  you  know  about  the  situation  in  which  the 
wife  of  Michael  Walsh  was  left? 

A.     Well,  I  don't  know  how  she  is  going  to  get  along,  Mr.  Manly. 

Q.     She  has  eight  children? 

A.     Eight  children. 

Q.     The  store  property  was  destroyed? 

A.     Yes,  it  was  destroyed. 

Q.     The  money  was  taken? 

A.     The  money  was  all  taken — everything  that  he  had. 

Q.     And  she  has  no  relatives  there  to  whom  she  can  go? 

A.     No,  she  has  no  family  there  to  whom  she  can  go. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  said  the  older  brother  was  not  home 
nights.     Tell  the  Commission  why  he  is  not  home  nights. 

A.  Mother  was  afraid  that  the  place  would  be  raided  at  night 
and  he  would  be  taken.  So  mother  is  afraid  for  him  to  sleep  at 
home  nights. 

Q.     He  is  what  they  call  over  there  "on  the  run"? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  on  the  run. 


516 

Q.     And  he  doesn't  come  home  nights  in  order  to  conceal  his 
whereabouts  at  night? 
A.     Yes. 

EFFECT  OF  MILITARY  TERRORISM  ON  PEOPLE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  is  the  condition  of  your  little  town?  Are 
the  people  nervous  and  terrified? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  most  of  the  people  are.  With  mother  and  the  other 
girls  at  home,  if  they  heard  any  dogs  barking  at  night,  they  jumped 
out  of  bed  terrified.  When  these  men  go  along  in  the  lorries  on  the 
road,  they  yell  at  them  to  put  up  their  hands,  and  then  shoot  over 
their  heads;  and  they  are  continually  frightened  that  they  will  be 
killed. 

Q.     And  the  lorries  are  going  along  all  the  time? 

A.  Yes,  all  the  time.  Three  or  four  a  day,  or  maybe  more  than 
that. 

Mr.  Manly:  That  will  be  all.     Thank  you  very  much. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


517 
TESTIMONY  OF  PAUL  J.  FURNAS 

Commissioner  Addams,  presiding :  I  think  the  next  witness  is  Mr. 
Furnas  from  Philadelphia.  Mr.  Furnas  is  going  to  put  in  a  report 
of  the  investigation  made  by  the  English  Quakers,  the  Society  of 
Friends  in  England.  They  made  an  investigation  of  conditions  in 
Ireland  last  October,  was  it? 

Mr.  Furnas:  The  investigation  was  made  the  last  part  of  Septem- 
ber, but  made  public  in  October. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  telegraphed  the  members  of  their 
Commission  to  come  here,  and  they,  unfortunately,  were  unable  to 
do  so.  But  Mr.  Furnas  was  in  London  then,  and  he  can  state  the 
conditions  under  which  it  was  made.     It  was  made  by  Englishmen. 

(Mr.  Furnas  takes  the  witness  stand.) 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  For  the  sake  of  the  record,  will  you  give  your 
name  and  address? 

A.     Paul  J.  Furnas,  501  Fifth  Avenue,  New  York  City. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Let  him  give  his  age  and  profession. 

A.  I  am  treasurer  of  the  General  Food  Products  Company,  and 
I  am  thirty  years  old. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.  I  was  born  in  Marion  County,  Indiana.  I  am  a  Quaker  by 
conviction. 

COMMISSION    APPOINTED    BY    ENGLISH    SOCIETY 
OF  FRIENDS  INVESTIGATES  IRISH  CONDITIONS 

Q.     Were  your  parents  Quakers? 

A.  Yes.  But  in  the  hearings  here,  I  appear  as  an  individual 
and  not  representing  any  organization  or  the  Society  of  Friends. 
I  am  simply  able  to  give  a  statement  as  to  who  the  Commission  of 
the  English  Friends  was  composed  of,  and  the  circumstances  under 
which  they  were  appointed,  and  the  circumstances  under  which  they 
reported. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  state  those  facts,  please?  First,  how 
the  Commission  came  to  be  created. 

A.  The  Friends  of  England,  known  as  the  London  Yearly  Meet- 
ing of  the  Society  of  Friends,  have  an  ad  interim  executive  body 
which  is  known  as  the  Meeting  for  Sufferings.  That  body  in  its 
September  meeting  appointed  a  commission  of  three — 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  What  year? 

A.  September,  1920.  Appointed  a  commission  of  three  to  go 
to  Ireland  and  make  an  investigation  and  report  back  to  that  meet- 


518 

ing.  This  commission  was  composed  of  John  Henry  Barlow,  who 
was  the  chairman  of  the  All  Friends  Conference,  which  was  a  world 
meeting  of  the  Society  of  Friends  in  London  in  August  of  this  year. 
He  was  formerly  the  presiding  officer  of  the  Society  of  Friends  in 
England.  He  lives,  I  believe,  in  Birmingham.  The  second  member 
of  the  commission  was  Roger  Clark,  who  was  an  assistant  chairman 
of  the  All  Friends  Conference  held  in  London,  and  is  the  presiding 
officer,  or  what  is  known  as  the  clerk  of  the  London  Yearly  Meet- 
ing. The  third  member  of  the  commission  was  Miss  Edith  M.  Ellis, 
who  is  a  prominent  worker  for  peace  in  England  and  sister  of  Lady 
Palmore.     These  three  people — 

Q.     They  are  all  English  people? 

A.  They  are  all  English  people,  yes.  This  committee  went  to 
Ireland  and  met  Irish  Friends  in  Dublin.  And  then  they  proceeded 
to  what  I  believe  was  approximately  a  two  weeks'  investigation, 
which  took  them  both  to  the  north  of  Ireland  and  the  south  of 
Ireland. 

Q.     Commissioner  Newman:  When  was  that? 

A.  This  was  the  latter  part  of  September,  1920.  At  the  Meeting 
for  Sufferings  held  on  the  first  day  of  October,  1920,  in  London, 
to  which  I  have  already  referred,  this  committee  made  its  report. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  how  long  the  committee  was  in 
Ireland? 

A.  About  two  weeks.  I  have  here  a  copy  of  the  report  which 
was  written  out  by  John  Henry  Barlow  following  the  meeting,  which 
covers  substantially  what  I  heard  him  say  in  that  meeting. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  He  made  the  report  for  the  committee? 

A.  He  was  one  of  two  who  reported.  Now,  I  shall  follow  what- 
ever course  you  indicate  as  to  whether  I  shall  read  this  report,  or 
as  to  whether  I  shall  simply  identify  it  and  leave  it  with  you. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  Is  it  long,  Mr.  Furnas? 

A.     It  is  four  typewritten  pages,  written  double  space. 

Senator  Norris:  I  think  it  ought  to  be  read  in  full. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  read  it.  First,  before  you  read 
it,  is  this  report  the  report  of  the  committee,  or  just  of  one  member 
of  the  committee?  Is  it  signed  by  anybody  except  the  person  who 
made  it? 

A.  I  have  here  only  a  copy,  but  I  heard  it  made,  and  can  testify 
that  it  is,  as  stated,  by  the  member  of  the  committee. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  what  we  want  to  get  at  is  whether  it  is 
the  report  of  the  committee  or  just  an  individual. 

A.     It  is  the  report  of  the  committee. 

Q.     All  right.    They  made  an  unanimous  report,  then? 


519 

A.  Thev  did  make  an  unanimous  report.  I  should  say  that  1 
have  here  a  report  written  by  John  Henry  Barlow  and  one  written 
by  Roger  Clark.  They  are  in  agreement  and  are  supplemental. 
This  report,  written  bv  John  Henry  Barlow,  was  a  few  days  after- 
wards published  in  the  London  Times — I  believe  the  London  Times 
of  October  fifth.     He  started  out  by  saying: 

FRIENDS'    COMMISSION    MAKES    THOROUGH   AND 
IMPARTIAL  INQUIRY 

"At  its  September  Meeting  the  Executive  Committee  of  the  Society 
of  Friends  (England)  had  before  it  the  disturbed  condition  of  Ire- 
land. After  serious  consideration  it  was  decided  to  send  a  deputa- 
tion to  visit  the  country  to  gather  facts  and  impressions  and  report 
to  a  subsequent  meeting  as  to  the  possibility  of  relief,  reconstruc- 
tion, and  reconciliation.  The  deputation  numbered  three,  of  whom 
the  writer  was  one.  It  may  fairly  be  claimed  that  they  went  with 
open  minds,  anxious  to  receive  light  from  whatever  quarter  it  may 
shine.  It  is  thought  that  some  account  of  what  was  seen  and  what 
impressions  were  received  may  be  of  general  interest." 

That  is  his  general  introduction  to  what  was  made  public. 

"The  chief  centers  visited  were  Dublin,  Belfast,  Limerick,  Cork, 
visits  being  made  also  from  these  to  places  in  the  neighborhood. 
Our  interviews  were  with  men  of  every  shade  of  opinion — Unionists, 
Nationalists,  Sinn  Feiners,  Protestants,  Orangemen,  Catholics,  Labor 
leaders.  They  included  members  of  Parliament,  bishops,  business 
men,  university  professors,  members  of  the  Sinn  Fein  cabinet,  Sinn 
Fein  judges,  journalists,  working  men.  Altogether  we  had  about 
sixty  interviews  besides  attending  groups  and  conferences.  Every- 
where we  were  received  with  unfailing  courtesy  and  kindness,  and 
every  facility  was  given  for  carrying  out  our  commission. 

EIGHTY  PER  CENT.  OF  IRELAND  RENDERS 
ALLEGIANCE  TO  REPUBLIC 

"First  of  all  as  to  what  we  saw.  On  the  surface  Dublin  was 
quiet,  but  while  we  were  in  the  north,  Mr.  Lynch  was  shot  in  a 
Dublin  hotel,  and  one  or  two  encounters  took  place  between  the 
Irish  Volunteers  and  the  military.  It  was  in  Dublin  that  we  had  our' 
first  experience  of  the  curfew,  and  received  particulars  of  the  burn- 
ing of  the  seventeen  cooperative  creameries.  There,  too,  we  found 
that  there  are  two  governments  in  Ireland,  that  of  the  Crown  and 
that  of  the  Irish  Republic.     Each  has  its  cabinet,  its  executive,  its 


520 

armed  force,  its  courts  of  justice.  It  is  no  exaggeration  to  say  that 
eighty  per  cent,  of  Ireland  renders  allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic, 
whether  willingly  or  unwillingly,  and  that  in  that  area  the  au- 
thority of  the  British  Government  rests  upon  force  and  not  upon 
consent. 

DEVASTATION  THROUGHOUT  IRELAND 

"In  Belfast  we  saw  something  of  the  ruin  caused  by  the  recent 
outbreaks,  but  it  was  not  until  we  visited  Lisburn,  a  short  distance 
from  the  city,  that  we  began  to  understand  how  fierce  the  violence 
had  been.  House  after  house,  shop  after  shop,  burnt  out  com- 
pletely, in  some  cases  not  even  the  walls  left  standing.  The  marvel 
was  how  the  flames  had  been  kept  from  spreading  and  the  whole 
town  saved  from  destruction.  In  the  outskirts  were  all  that  was  left 
of  one  or  two  good  houses,  standing  in  their  own  grounds — bare 
walls  and  heaps  of  debris.  Going  to  Limerick  we  found  several 
ruined  houses  where  the  work  of  destruction  had  been  carried  out 
with  extraordinary  completeness.  Painted  in  large  letters  on  the 
walls  left  standing  were  such  sentences  as  'The  work  of  the  Black- 
and  Tans,'  'The  work  of  the  R.  I.  C.'  In  Kerry  Street,  which  had 
been  raided  but  not  burned,  we  found  that  practically  every  window, 
both  glass  and  woodwork,  had  been  smashed,  doors  burst  open, 
and  furniture,  ornaments,  earthenware — in  fact,  everything  break- 
able— included  in  one  common  destruction.  The  accounts  given 
were  most  graphic.  Here  it  was  a  woman  showing  the  remains  of 
cherished  ornaments  and  looking  glass;  there  another  lamenting 
over  the  shattered  remnants  of  a  wardrobe;  and  again  another 
pointing  to  a  plaster  cast  of  the  Virgin  and  rejoicing  that  it  had 
been  spared.  Leaving  this  Via  Doloroso,  it  was  not  surprising  to 
read  on  the  walls  of  some  neighboring  buildings  such  inscriptions 
as  'Sorrow  to  England,'  'Damn  England.' 

RUINED  VILLAGES 

"From  Limerick  we  made  a  long  round  by  motor  car  to  visit 
three  villages  which  had  just  been  'shot  up.'  These  were  Ennis- 
tymon,  Lahinch,  and  Miltown  Malbay.  The  first  sign  of  trouble 
was  cut  telegraph  wires.  This  had  been  done  in  two  places.  On 
entering  Ennistymon  the  acrid  smell  of  burning  met  us  everywhere. 
Some  of  the  ruins  were  still  smoking,  and  here  and  there  flame  was 
flickering  over  the  ashes.  A  man  who  had  been  present  during  the 
raid  told  us  of  the  frenzy  of  the  attack,  the  wild  shouting,  the  blaz- 


521 

ing  houses,  the  bullets  whizzing  past  his  head  as  he  tried  to  bring 
two  women  from  the  street  to  a  place  of  safety,  the  shooting  of  a 
man  and  the  burning  of  the  body  in  the  flames. 

THE  COST  IN  HUMAN  LIFE 

"As  we  left  the  village  a  lorry  passed  us  manned  by  armed  police, 
and  carrying  on  the  floor  two  coffins.  Presumably  these  were  for 
two  of  a  party  of  police  ambushed  and  shot  a  day  or  two  before. 
Lahinch  had  suffered  more  than  Ennistymon.  'Come  this  way,  sir,' 
said  a  man.  We  followed.  There  at  the  back  of  the  house,  in  a 
low,  poor  shed,  was  a  comparatively  small  chest  covered  with  a 
white  cloth,  and  on  the  top  a  few  flowers.  'He  was  burnt,  sir,  in 
one  of  the  houses.  He  was  a  stranger.  We  don't  know  who  he  was.' 
This  was  all  that  was  left.  Now  we  were  talking  to  a  woman. 
'When  they  came  to  my  house  I  begged  and  prayed  them  not  to  burn 
it.  The  man  at  the  door  was  tall  and  fair.  I  could  see  him  plainly, 
for  it  was  bright  moonlight,  and  there  was  the  light  from  the  burn- 
ing house.  I  pleaded  hard,  "Don't  burn  this  house.  There's  no 
one  but  women  and  children  in  it."  And  they  went  away  and  did 
not  burn  it.'  Again  we  are  questioning  a  man  who  had  succeeded 
in  putting  out  the  flames  in  his  house — a  small  inn.  T  carried  the 
water  up  here.  I  was  afraid  they  would  see  me  and  shoot  me. 
There  were  some  visitors  upstairs,  and  they  helped  them  out  with 
their  luggage.  They  said,  "It's  not  women  and  children  we  want; 
it's  the  men  we're  after.  We're  out  for  blood."  '  And  now  we 
leave  the  houses  to  go  into  the  main  street.  A  crowd  is  moving 
slowly  from  the  farther  end.  A  coffin  carried  shoulder  high  by  the 
men  of  the  village  is  being  borne  to  the  cemetery.  With  bared 
heads  we  join  in  the  march.  It  is  the  funeral  of  one  of  those  killed 
in  the  raid.  A  short  interval  and  then  a  change.  A  motor  lorry, 
carrying  six  or  eight  soldiers  with  trench  helmets,  bayonets,  and 
rifles  at  'the  ready,'  passes  through  the  village.  I  stand  looking 
hard  at  this  symbol  of  physical  power.  The  soldiers'  eyes  range 
over  doors,  windows,  and  doorways,  their  fingers  on  the  rifle  trig- 
gers. I  think  of  the  charred  remnants  of  the  stranger  a  few  yards 
away  in  the  shed,  of  the  coffin  carried  shoulder  high;  my  eyes  rest 
on  the  ruin  left  by  the  fires,  and  I  cannot  deny  that  a  feeling  of 
fierce  anger  flares  up  within  me.  And  then  like  a  flash  comes  the 
recollection  of  the  lorry  we  have  seen  leaving  Ennistymon,  with  its 
armed  policemen  guarding  the  two  coffins;  and  I  think  of  the  mur- 
dered policemen,  their  widows  and  little  children.  And  then,  as  in 
colors  of  flame,  the  conflict  of  the  tragedy  of  Ireland  is  before  me. 


522 


DESTRUCTION  IN  COUNTRY  AND  CITY 

"Continuing  our  drive,  we  saw  evidence  that  the  reprisals  had 
not  been  confined  to  villages  and  towns,  but  that  isolated  farms  and 
cottages  had  been  included.  In  other  respects  the  country  looked 
prosperous.  The  cottages  and  farm  buildings  are  well  thatched  and 
cleanly  whitewashed;  and  indeed  we  were  assured  from  many  quar- 
ters that  Ireland  is  financially  prosperous. 

"On  the  last  night  which  we  spent  in  Cork,  I  was  awakened  at 
about  two  o'clock  by  an  explosion.  Springing  to  the  window  I 
looked  out.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  firing,  the  coming  and  going 
of  lorries  and  armored  cars,  and  a  searchlight  in  the  distance.  Two 
or  three  times  I  got  back  to  bed,  only  to  hurry  to  the  window  again 
as  a  shot  or  shots  rang  out.  Gradually  matters  seemed  to  settle 
down.  Investigation  in  the  morning  showed  that  a  large  part  of  an 
extensive  shop  front  had  been  blown  out  by  an  explosion,  and 
practically  every  pane  of  glass  on  the  opposite  side  of  the  street 
for  a  considerable  distance  shivered  by  its  force. 

A  SINN  FEIN  COURT 

"In  Cork  we  had  the  opportunity  of  attending  a  Sinn  Fein  court. 
Three  young  men  sat  on  the  bench,  and  there  were  about  forty 
people  present.  The  cases  related  to  the  licensing  laws,  and  the 
proceedings  were  conducted  in  a  quiet  and  businesslike  manner. 
From  many  quarters  we  received  testimony  to  the  efficiency  of  these 
courts,  and  to  the  impartiality  with  which  they  administer  justice. 
They  deal  with  criminal  offenses,  questions  of  rent,  ownership  and 
occupation  of  land.  So  much  for  what  we  saw.  Now  for  a  few 
impressions. 

IRRECONCILABLE  UNIONISM  IS  DEAD 

"The  old  irreconcilable  Unionism  is  dead,  except  in  Ulster.  The 
old  constitutional  Nationalist  Party  has  gone  also.  One  former 
Nationalist  M.  P.  told  me  he  doubted  if  he  could  find  enough 
supporters  to  fill  his  nomination  papers.  Everywhere  men  talk  of 
a  Republic,  a  liberal  measure  of  home  rule,  or  Dominion  home  rule. 
It  is  not  that  Unionists  think  home  rule  the  better  policy,  but  that 
they  regard  something  of  the  kind  as  inevitable.  A  measure  of  the 
kind  that  would  have  been  fought  five  years  ago  would  now  almost 
certainly  be  accepted  by  Unionists  with  thankfulness. 

"The  Parliamentary  Nationalist  Policy  was  discredited  because 
it  was  found  to  lead  only  to  disappointment,  broken   Government 


523 

promises,  bills  withdrawn,  Acts  suspended.  No  one  could  trust  the 
Government.  In  consequence  practically  the  whole  of  the  Nation- 
alist following  has  gone  over  to  Sinn  Fein.  We  gathered,  however, 
that  while  the  extreme  Sinn  Feiners  were  apparently  irreconcilable, 
and  will  accept  nothing  short  of  an  independent  Irish  Republic, 
there  is  a  large  mass  of  moderate  opinion  which  would  accept  a 
well-conceived  liberal  measure  of  self-government.  Several  ex- 
pressed the  opinion  that  the  bestowal  of  this  would  kill  the  agita- 
tion for  independence.  However  this  may  be,  I  must  repeat  that 
deeds,  not  words,  are  needed.  Government  promises  are  simply 
disregarded. 

THREE  COURSES  OPEN  TO  ENGLAND 

"Broadly  speaking,  the  courses  before  England  seem  to  be  limited 
to  three:  (1)  Repression  and  yet  more  repression,  and  all  that  this 
involves;  (2)  the  gift  of  a  liberal  measure  of  self-government, 
including  fiscal  and  financial  control;  (3)  an  independent  Irish 
Republic.  I  am  inclined  to  think  England  will  rule  out  the  first 
and  third  of  these.  What  of  the  second?  And  what  of  the  stopping 
of  police  reprisals,  the  withdrawal  of  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown 
as  a  pledge  of  the  good  faith  of  the  Government,  whose  good  faith 
also  stands  in  need  of  some  guarantee  of  the  kind?  I  believe  there 
is  hope  in  this  direction.  But  action  must  be  prompt  and  decisive. 
Tempers  are  hardening.  The  door  of  opportunity  is  closing.  Will 
the  Government  have  the  courage  to  act  before  it  is  again  too  late?" 

The  Witness:  This  completes  the  report  as  written  by  John  Henry 
Barlow.  There  are  just  a  few  conclusions  that  were  stated  for  the 
committee  by  Roger  Clark  that  I  might  offer  in  addition  if  you  wish 
them.  There  may  be  points  in  his  conclusion  that  are  also  referred 
to  here,  but  I  think  it  might  be  of  some  interest  to  have  them  in  the 
words  of  another  member  of  the  committee. 

ENGLAND'S  BROKEN  PROMISES  HAVE  CONVERTED 
HOME  RULE  PARTY  TO  SINN  FEIN 

"We  must  endeavor  to  summarize  briefly  our  general  impressions 
on  the  situation.  Politically  it  is  clear  that  the  constitutional  Home 
Rule  or  Nationalist  Party  has  entirely  disappeared.  One  of  the 
late  Members  for  Cork  told  us  that  if  he  put  up  again  as  a  Nation- 
alist, he  doubted  if  he  would  get  enough  support  to  fill  up  his  nomi- 
nations. Sinn  Fein,  originally  a  semi-literary  movement  to  revive 
the  old  native  culture,  language  and  life,  developed  later  into  a 
political  movement  for  complete  national  independence  from  Eng- 


524 

land.  The  Nationalist  Party,  disillusioned  utterly  by  the  repeated 
non-fulfilment  of  promises  of  self-government  from  England,  has 
moved  bodily  over  to  Sinn  Fein.  The  elected  Sinn  Fein  members 
meet  frequently  in  Dublin  instead  of  coming  to  Westminster,  and 
have  set  up  a  Republican  Government,  electing  a  Cabinet  which 
functions  through  judiciary,  police,  army,  etc.  They  have  appointed 
agricultural  and  other  commissions,  on  which  prominent  Unionists 
have  been  not  unwilling  to  serve. 

ORDER  AND  SAFETY  IN  IRELAND  NOW  FOUND 
ONLY  UNDER  SINN  FEIN  GOVERNMENT 

"It  is  generally  admitted  by  moderate  people,  including  many 
Unionists,  that  the  only  protection  they  enjoy  is  from  the  Sinn  Fein 
police.  Their  meetings  are  protected  from  interruption,  stolen 
goods  are  found  and  returned,  writers  of  threatening  letters  are 
dealt  with  and  stopped,  laws  controlling  the  sale  of  intoxicating 
drinks  are  rigorously  enforced.  All  this  when  it  is  a  penal  offense 
for  a  Sinn  Fein  Volunteer  policeman  to  act  as  such.  It  is  plausibly 
maintained  that  if  the  English  garrison  and  armed  police  were  to 
withdraw,  the  Sinn  Fein  Government  could  and  would  run  the  coun- 
try, and  that  at  present  order  and  safety  are  only  found  in  districts 
from  which  the  English  military  and  police  have  been  withdrawn. 
Moderate  people  are  already  discussing  to  which  Government  they 
shall  pay  their  next  income  tax.  The  English  Government  has 
ceased  to  function  over  at  least  eighty  per  cent,  of  Ireland.  We 
were  bound  to  recognize  that  a  state  of  war  is  considered  to  exist, 
and  does  exist.     The  Irish  Volunteers  are  the  Sinn  Fein  army." 

ASHAMED  AS  ENGLISHMEN  OF  GOVERNMENT'S 
DEEDS  IN  IRELAND 

The  Witness:  Here  is  just  a  bit  of  conclusion: 

"As  Friends  we  must  deplore  the  violence  and  the  bloodshed  on 
both  sides  that  take  place  in  such  a  state  of  war.  As  English  citi- 
zens we  must  surely  chiefly  feel  the  shame  of  the  direct  responsi- 
bility of  our  Government  for  the  policy  of  reprisals  by  the  so-called 
Black-and-Tans  led  by  their  officers,  during  which  town  after  town 
is  being  ravaged  and  burnt,  and  women  and  children  are  driven 
terror  stricken  into  the  fields  and  woods  to  seek  safety  at  night." 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  that 
committee  consisted  of  three  people? 

A.     It  did. 


525 

Q.     What  nation  did  they  come  from? 

A.     They  are  Englishmen. 

Q.     Were  they  all  English? 

A.  All  English.  There  were  three  of  them,  one  living  in  Bir- 
mingham, one  in  a  suburhan  town  south  of  London,  and  Edith  Ellis 
lived  in  London  at  the  time  I  was  there.  They  were  all  English 
people. 

Q.     And  this  report  was  made  at  the  World  Conference? 

A.  No,  this  was  made  following  the  World  Conference  of 
Friends,  and  was  made  to  the  executive  ad  interim  body. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  It  was  made  to  the  same  body  that  appointed 
the  committee? 

A.     It  was. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you 
heard  this  report  made? 

A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.     And  you  were  in  England  at  the  time? 

A.     I  was. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  any  objections  made  to  the  report? 

A.  There  were  no  objections  made  to  the  report.  There  was  a 
great  deal  of  expression  of  commendation  to  the  Friends  who  served 
on  the  committee,  and  under  some  difficulty  and  inconvenience  went 
to  Ireland  to  make  the  investigation.  I  can  add,  however,  that  there 
were  some  Friends  in  the  meeting,  who  were  in  the  decided  minority, 
who  were  not  clear  as  to  the  withdrawal  of  the  English  forces.  That 
is,  they  had  in  mind  the  opposition  of  the  people  in  the  north  of 
Ireland  to  the  withdrawal  of  the  English  forces,  and  they  said  they 
did  not  see  what  was  going  to  happen  next  unless  it  was  civil  war 
if  they  were  withdrawn.  I  should  say  that  there  were  from  five  to 
six  people  out  of  a  committee  of  one  hundred  who  expressed  that 
attitude. 

Q.  There  was  no  question  raised  as  to  the  facts,  but  only  on  the 
policy? 

A.  Only  as  to  the  policy.  I  may  say  that  these  three  Friends 
who  made  the  report  are  generally  considered  among  Friends  to  be 
as  responsible  as  any  three  people  could  be.  They  have  the  highest 
regard  and  respect  for  them. 

NO  RELIGIOUS  PERSECUTION  OF  FRIENDS  IN 
IRELAND 

Q.      Do  you  know  how  many  Friends  there  are  in  Ireland? 
A.     Not   less  than   three   thousand   or   more   than   five   thousand. 
I  do  not  know  exactly. 


526 

Q.     Where  are  they  located?     Do  you  know? 

A.  About  Belfast  and  Dublin,  and  a  few  who  are  centered  in 
the  south  of  Ireland. 

Q.     Both  in  the  north  and  south  of  Ireland? 

A.     Both  in  the  north  and  south. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  complaints  have  come  to  the 
Society  of  Friends  regarding  the  persecution  of  the  Friends  in  Ire- 
land, or  any  violence  toward  them? 

A.  No,  I  know  of  no  persecution  of  Friends.  There  have  been 
instances  in  which  the  homes  of  Friends  have  been  searched. 

Q.     By  whom? 

A.  I  think  both  by  representatives  of  Sinn  Fein  and  the  English 
Government,  but  I  am  unable  to  give  details.  But  in  no  case  that 
I  know  of  has  violence  been  done  or  property  destroyed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  Friends  in  the  south  of 
Ireland  are  as  a  class  Bepublicans? 

A.  As  a  class  they  could  not  be  said  to  be  Republicans.  They 
have  in  times  past  been  Unionists  or  Nationalists.  They  are  not 
now  actively  in  Sinn  Fein,  but  I  know  that  a  great  many  of  them 
are  very  sympathetic  with  the  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.  But  as  a  class  they  have,  you  think,  been  rather  aloof  recently 
from  this  more  bitter  political  movement? 

A.  They  have  always  been  aloof  from  it,  as  far  as  taking  any 
partisan  part  is  concerned,  because  of  the  fact  that  their  principles 
deterred  them  from  being  very  partisan  in  the  matter — that  is,  from 
taking  an  active  part  in  it. 

Q.  Would  it  be  your  view  then  that  the  Friends  would  be  as 
nearly  impartial  and  unbiased  as  any  group  of  people  in  Ireland 
can  be? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  my  opinion  is  worth  very  much  on 
that  point. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  stated  the  fact  that  their  principles  have  kept 
them  out  of  partisan  politics  to  a  large  extent? 

A.     Yes,  yes;  that  is  correct.     To  a  large  extent. 

Q.  And  would  you  draw  the  conclusion  from  that  that  they 
would  be  as  impartial  as  a  body  of  people  could  be? 

A.     Yes,  yes.     I  think  that  is  a  warranted  conclusion. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Do  the  Friends  have  churches  in  Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  they  have. 

Q.     Where  are  they  located? 

A.  I  am  unable  to  give  a  list  of  places  where  there  are  Meetings, 
as  they  are  called. 


527 

Q.     But  wherever  they  are,  they  have  places  of  worship? 

A.  Yes,  a  considerable  number  of  them.  The  chief  places  are 
Belfast  and  Dublin. 

Q.  Well,  Dublin  is  a  Catholic  community  and  Belfast  is  a 
Protestant  community. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Well,  then,  I  wish  you  would  tell  the  Commission  of  any 
cases  that  you  know  of  where  the  Friends  have  been  interfered  with 
in  their  religious  services. 

A.     I  know  of  no  such  instances. 

Q.     Either  in  the  north  or  south? 

A.     Either  in  the  north  or  south. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  If  there  had  been,  you  would  have 
heard  of  such  disturbances? 

A.     I  think  I  would. 

SOCIETY  OF  FRIENDS  OPPOSED  TO  ALL  WAR 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Are  the  Friends  fearful  that  if  the  Repub- 
lican form  of  government  comes  about  they  will  be  interfered  with 
in  any  way? 

A.  I  have  never  heard  any  Friends  express  that.  I  know  that 
there  are  some  Friends  in  the  north  of  Ireland  who  are  fearful 
of  the  new  government,  but  not  on  religious  grounds. 

Q.  But  your  Friends  in  the  south  of  Ireland,  where  the  Repub- 
licans are  in  the  great  majority,  have  more  reason  to  be  fearful, 
in  case  there  were  to  be  any  persecutions,  than  those  in  the  north.   ' 

A.  Yes,  that  would  be  so.  But  I  have  friends  in  the  south  of 
Ireland,  and  I  have  never  heard  them  express  anything  that   way. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  What  are  the  political  affiliations  of 
the  Friends  in  England? 

A.  Before  the  war  they  were  Liberals,  but  since  the  war  it  is 
hard  to  say.  A  great  many  of  them  are  affiliating  with  the  Labor 
Party. 

Q.     The  Friends  during  the  war  supported  the  war,  did  they  not? 

A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question  yes  or  no,  because  there 
were  a  good  many  Friends  who  did  go  into  the  army  or  did  take 
part  in  the  financing  of  the  wartime  work  in  England.  But  the 
attitude  of  the  Friends  as  a  whole  was  against  the  war  and  against 
military  service,  and  they  stood  out  publicly  on  it  throughout 
the  war. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Their  attitude,  though,  is  not  against  this  par 
ticular  war,  but  against  all  wars. 

A.     That  is  correct. 


528 

Q.  It  is  a  long-standing  principle  that  the  action  of  the  indi- 
vidual Friend  is  a  matter  of  personal  discretion  in  time  of  war. 

A.     That  is  correct. 

Q.  And  it  has  been  recognized  by  the  government  in  past  wars, 
has  it  not,  that  the  Society  of  Friends  is  entitled  to  religious  ex- 
emption? 

A.  It  has  been  recognized,  1  would  say,  to  a  more  or  less  degree, 
its  recognition  depending  on  how  hard  pressed  the  government  was. 

Q.  That  was  true,  though,  in  this  country  that  there  had  been  a 
recognition  of  the  Society  of  Friends  as  one  of  the  religious  organi- 
zations which  on  principle  was  opposed  to  military  activity. 

A.     That  is  quite  true. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  many  Friends  are  there  in  Eng- 
land?    Have  you  any  idea? 

A.     About  18,000;  possibly  20,000. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  How  many  are  there  in  the  United  States? 

A.     About  100,000. 

Q.     Communicants,  or  members  of  meeting  houses? 

A.     Yes,  about  100,000,  widely  scattered. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  The  Society  of  Friends  in  the  United 
States  did  not  oppose  military  service,  did  they? 

A.  They  took  the  same  stand  that  the  Friends  did  in  England. 
I  myself  did  oppose  it.  I  will  have  to  make  an  explanation  in 
order  to  answer  that  question.  I  will  make  it  as  briefly  as  possible. 
The  Society  of  Friends  does  not  undertake  to  bind  their  members 
as  to  their  individual  procedure.  It  is  supposed  that  they  in  a  gen- 
eral way  have  convictions  that  are  in  harmony  with  the  principles 
that  have  been  set  down  as  the  principles  of  the  Society  of  Friends. 
But  they  are  not  ordered  to  do  anything,  but  are  supposed  to  follow 
their  convictions.  And  it  would  simply  follow  that  if  a  person  did 
not  in  general  agree  with  the  principles  of  the  Society  of  Friends, 
it  would  be  expected  that  he  would  eventually  resign.  But  no 
Friends -were  discharged  or  dismissed  from  membership  because 
they  took  part  in  the  war,  although  at  the  same  time  the  official 
attitude  of  the  Society  of  Friends  was  against  participation  in  the 
war,  or  against  war  in  any  form  or  in  any  circumstances  as  a  method 
of  settling  any  international  dispute,  both  now  and  past  and  future. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Are  there  any  other  questions  as  to  the  Irish 
testimony?  If  not,  are  there  any  other  witnesses  this  morning? 
Have  you  anybody  else,  Mr.  Manly? 

Mr.  Manly:  No,  I  have  not. 


529 

Chairman  Howe:  The  witnesses  we  expected  to  have  this  week 
are  still  on  the  seas.  They  are  on  the  Baltic  and  the  Carmania. 
They  were  expected  to  land  this  week,  so  that  we  could  continue  the 
hearings  today  or  Saturday;  but  neither  of  these  boats  will  land 
before  Sunday.  The  Commission  expects  to  continue  its  hearings 
on  Tuesday  or  Wednesday  of  next  week.  We  cannot  set  a  definite 
day  or  hour  now,  but  they  will  be  announced  in  the  press.  The 
hearings  will  be  held  here  in  the  LaFayette  Hotel. 

Thereupon,  at  11:45  A.  M.,  the  Commission  adjourned  until  the 
Fourth  Hearings. 


FOURTH  HEARINGS  on  CONDITIONS  in  IRELAND 

Befora  the 

AMERICAN  COMMISSION  on  conditions  in 
[R  EC  LAN  I) 


COMMISSIONERS 


Sesxion  One 
Janic  Ai»i>\ius 

I  \I\IIS    II      l\l  VHIU/.lt 

(Miviii  r   Nkwman 

Cloud'      W.     INoltltIN 

INohman  Thomas 
David  I.  Walhh 
1 1,  I loi  i . i ink  swoii i  ii  Wood 

I'iuih  km    (      I  low  I 

I  ill  II  !\      (     /hill  lllllll 

Before  il„  Commission,  silling  in  Hold  LaFayette  Washington, 
I).  C ..  Tuesday,  Deeembei  21,  1920. 

Session  called  lo  urdei  bj  Chairman  Howe  al   10:20  A.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  mil  come  lo  order.  The  hearing 
ol  witnesses  will  continue  the  grealoi  pari  ol  loday,  tomorrow,  and 
Thursday.  The  witnesses  who  have  come  foj  loday  in  response  lo 
the  Commissions  reonesl  are  iwo  English  women  who  have  made 
,i  personal  inuuiry  in  Inland,  whieh  has  been  embodied  in  q  reporl 
printed,  I  understand,  and  distributed  through  their  organization. 
I  hey  have  l  ■m.ii\  consented  lo  eome  over  here  and  appear  before 
the  Commission  and  give  evidence.  The  first  witness  is  Mrs,  Robin- 
son, t\ 1 1  .  Robinson,  you  can  adjust  yourself  lo  youi  comfort,  and 
il  you  can  speak  so  lhal  the  audience  can  hear  von,  ii  will  add  to 
theii  comfort. 


TESTIMONY  OV  MRS.  ANNOT  KRSKINK 

ROBINSON 
Q      You  will  lirsl  state  youi  name,  Mrs.  Robinson, 
\       \nnoi  Erskine  Robinson. 
Q      Youi  residence? 
A.     Manchester. 
Q,     Senator  Norris:  England? 
\      England, 

530 


'.,:',  \ 


PURPOSE  OF  THE   WOMEN'S    INTERNATIONAL 
LEAGUE 

O.     Chairman  II-. we     AIM|  y,„.  ....•  .,  memhei   -.1   uti  oi>ouiiz. 

in   l...;-l.m<l   llial    made   .,„    inquiry    in    Ireland? 

A.       Yen,   ||„-    WjlllHIIl'l     International    I,. .;<.,. 

O.      Wlinl    ii    ihe   milure   --I    ihe    Women'     Inlernalional    I  .•  ■  u/ue? 
A.      Tliii  Wo,,,-,,      Inlernalional  League  is  n  hody  -.1   women  whieh 

firMl    eailie    |,,;m||„  .     ill     lOlfi   ii      ll..-    lesilll    .,1    ||    ..„,;<.<         I..  1. 1    .,1    Tin 

II;.,-,.,-,      A     .,    re  ijJi   ol    ihai   ,.,„;.».■ ■■    bodie     ,,l    women   linvi    been 
e   lublished    ...    I .,»;-  I;...,i    ,|      well    ii      ...    A,„.  .....        The    ,,!,,,,  i    „|    linn 

.nf-ouiiy,ali<ni    wai     i<,    try    i<,   .    i.,|,|i  |,    i|,<     pnneiph     «,l    eooperalion 
...   inlernalional   afl'aii      lo  find     nine  olln  .    way   of     .ill.,,;-   fin    .1. 
pule    .,1  nation     l.<  :side     wai       They  held  a  eonferene.    al  The  llnf/m 
in    \l.r,     I'll :,     ami  ...   May,   1910,  a     -,,,,,-1  international  conf'erenee 
v...     Iii  I.I   til   /u...  I,   in   Swilzerland,  ami   il   a^ain   ili  ...     - -I   melhod 
whereby    nalion     eould     '-III.    . I, If.  ......      ,,||„  ,    llian    by    wai       Oiu 

I'.ni.  Ii    Seclion    Iia     ........I   on    .1      worl    ...    Ikilain     ami   ..I    eoui  < 

ullii-i     eelion     I,..-.    ,.,,.... I  mi   ll,<  ,.    •/,.,, I     in  -I.II-  P  nl   eounlrie 


REASONS   PROMPTING    INVESTIGATION   OI< 
A'J  ROCI1  IES  IN  IRELAND 

In     llm      prinji     -.1     1020    il.<     attention     ..I     lln      liritish     Senium 
■,,.,     naturally    ......  I,   .,..,,,,...1    by    whal    wa     happening    in    Ireland 

W<-  believed   thai    tin:   principle   ol     <  1 1  d<  i<  . ....... ,i  ion    wa:    .,    I,,,,. I.. 

in 


nlal    .1-1,1    <il 


u  ;,  V    am    I. 


"    I""    """  "\ 


.,,,.  nation       W- 


alho  fell  thai  il.<-  alio,  hie;  and  repri  al;  happening  in  Ireland  ■//. .< 
building  up  a  Iremendou:  late  „f  Wai  and  hatred  and  no  lility 
between  Britain  and  Irelaiuh  Uccausc  ol  llial,  ami  becau  -  also  ol 
lln-  suffering  ol  llin  women  and  r;|)ildren,  w,  del.  .„,..,- -d  in  Auj/usl 
lo  tttul  a  commission  .,1  i...  1.0  Ireland  lo  determine  wlial  wa  Imp 
I-.,...-  ami  VI,  Wilkinhon  .....I  myself  wen;  two  ol  lln  membei 
ol    llial   .  omini  sion   ol    |.e,n. 

(),      Commissionei    Wood     May  I  a  f<   how  you  knew  of  the     ullei 
,,,;.  ol   the   women   and   children   l,<  lore    you    went? 

A.  Well,  ol  from  e,  il  i  p<  rfcclly  obviou  ,  ,1  not,  llial  win  n 
,1  r  reported  ...  the  newspapers  thai  honn:  wen:  bcinj/  destroyed, 
thai  women  ami  ehjjdren  are  (/oinj/  to  suffer?  I  do  nol  know  llial 
then:  wai  any  partieulaj  tatemenl  ol  thai  ,,ll.  ,,.,;-  in  tin  m  \ 
papers,  hul  perhaps  .1  wa  hul  oui  own  imagination  thai  led  in-  lo 
know  thai  whal  wai  happening  there  would  ran  <  suffering  amonj/ 
the  women  ami  children.  We  knew  thai  reprisal  had  occurred 
and  thai  they   would  fall  hard*:  1   upon   tin    women   and  children. 


532 

Q.     You  had  no  information  from  friends  in  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  the  Irish  Branch  of  the  Women's  International  League 
was  founded  in  1915.  The  Irish  women  felt  that  they  could  not 
conscientiously  set  up  a  branch  of  the  British  Women's  League. 
Miss  Louie  Bennett,  a  writer  whose  name  you  may  have  heard, 
became  the  secretary  of  the  Irish  International  League.  But  it  was 
not  because  of  any  appeal  that  they  sent  that  we  decided  to  send  a 
commission  to  Ireland.  It  was  as  a  result  of  our  own  consciousness 
of  what  we  knew  was  happening. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  the  British  Section  that  you  represent 
is  confined  to  England,  Scotland,  and  Wales? 

A.  Yes.  Then  in  October  of  this  year  we  sent  a  delegation  of 
ten  women  to  investigate  conditions  in  Ireland.  We  have  distributed 
among  the  members  of  the  Commission  a  little  printed  pamphlet 
that  we  issued  as  a  result  of  that  mission. 

COMMISSION'S    REPORT    ON    CONDITIONS    IN 
IRELAND  ASTONISHES  BRITISH  PEOPLE 

On  our  return  from  Ireland  on  the  sixteenth  of  October,  I,  as 
Organizing  Secretary,  arranged  a  large  number  of  demonstrations 
throughout  the  large  cities  of  England,  at  which  members  of  the 
commission  spoke  and  gave  their  impressions  from  their  visit  to 
Ireland.  I  think  at  this  juncture  I  ought  to  say  that  the  commission 
did  not  go  as  one  mission.  Some  of  us  went  to  one  part  of  Ireland 
and  some  to  another;  and  we  endeavored  at  these  demonstrations 
to  present  the  impressions  of  those  members  of  the  commission 
which  had  visited  the  different  parts  of  Ireland.  We  had  demon- 
strations in  London  and  Manchester  and  Bristol  and  Newcastle  and 
Edinburgh  and  Leeds  and  all  the  big'  centers  of  population.  And 
now,  since  Miss  Wilkinson  and  I  are  over  here,  the  series  of  demon- 
strations have  been  continued;  and  one  reason  that  we  hesitated  to 
come  was  that  we  wanted  to  stay  and  try  to  inform  public  opinion 
by  these  demonstrations.  We  held  this  series  of  demonstrations 
in  practically  all  the  big  cities  of  the  country.  At  all  those  meetings 
we  have  had  very  large  audiences  indeed.  At  Manchester  we  held 
our  meeting  in  the  Free  Trade  Hall,  which  is  a  very  well-known 
hall,  an  historic  place,  and  holds  about  three  thousand  people. 
And  we  have  had  the  biggest  halls  in  most  of  these  big  towns;  and 
we  found  a  tremendous  feeling  of  astonishment  in  Britain  at  what 
is  happening  in  Ireland,  and  a  great  deal  of  sympathy  with  the 
Irish  people  in  their  demand  for  some  recognition  of  their 
nationality. 


533 

LIBERAL  ENGLISH  PAPERS  INFORM  PUBLIC 
ABOUT  ATROCITIES  IN  IRELAND 

I  do  not  know  whether  this  is  the  place  where  I  think  that  British 
citizens  ought  to  make  it  perfectly  clear  that  there  are  a  great  many 
influences  in  Britain  at  the  present  time  that  are  working  in  the 
direction  of  obtaining  some  recognition  of  the  nationality  of  Ire- 
land. I  think — of  course  I  have  not  been  in  the  fortunate  position 
of  being  able  to  see  the  American  papers,  but  I  should  imagine 
that  that  is  a  side  of  British  public  life  at  present  that  has  not  been 
well  reported  in  the  American  press. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Has  it  been  in  the  British  press? 

A.  Yes.  There,  of  course,  we  have  some  newspapers  in  Britain 
that  have  done  a  very  great  deal  about  publishing  the  facts  about 
what  is  happening  in  Ireland  during  the  last  few  months.  I  think 
we  have  handed  in  to  Mr.  MacDonald  a  series  of  photographs 
published  by  the  Manchester  Guardian.  The  Manchester  Guardian 
during  this  spring,  and  particularly  during  September  and  October 
of  this  year,  sent  over  four  of  their  best  photographers  and  also 
press  reporters  to  Ireland,  who  have  made  it  their  business  to  go 
to  each  locality  where  atrocities  have  been  reported  to  obtain  photo- 
graphs and  first-hand  information  from  those  who  have  participated 
in  those  outrages.  The  photographs  Mr.  MacDonald  has.  They 
appeared  in  the  Manchester  Guardian.  The  Manchester  Guardian, 
of  course,  is  a  newspsaper  with  a  very  great  influence  in  Britain  in 
liberal  circles.  Not  only  the  Manchester  Guardian  and  the  Daily 
News  and  Leader  have  done  that,  but  also  the  Daily  Herald,  the 
Labor  newspaper,  although  it  has  not  so  much  space  to  give  in  its 
columns,  has  reported  very  fully  indeed  the  information  about 
atrocities  and  murders  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  What  is  the  circulation  of  these  papers, 
Mrs.  Robinson? 

A.  The  Daily  Herald  now  has  350,000,  and  it  has  a  circulation 
among  people  who  have  very  considerable  weight  in  Great  Britain. 

Q.     But  it  has  a  circulation  only  among  one  class. 

A.  Among  one  party,  but  not  among  one  class.  But  I  cannot 
go  into  the  political  side  of  it. 

Q.  But  I  wanted  to  know  what  that  meant  in  formulating  British 
public  opinion. 

A.  I  should  state  that  not  only  the  Manchester  Guardian  and  the 
Daily  Neus  and  Leader  and  the  Daily  Herald,  but  also  the  weekly 
Nation — I  don't  know  how  large  its  circulation  is,  but  it  has  a 
circulation  among  some  of  the  most  thoughtful  and  influential  peo- 


534 

pie,  and  it  has  done  a  very  great  deal  of  good.  As  to  the  exact 
circulation  of  the  papers  I  have  mentioned,  the  Daily  Herald  has  a 
circulation  of  350,000.  You  know,  of  course,  that  the  Daily  Herald 
is  a  Labor  Party  paper,  but  the  Labor  Party,  when  its  new  consti- 
tution was  formed  in  1919,  extended  its  invitation  to  people  who 
work  with  hand  and  brain;  and  it  is  not  true  to  say  that  the  Labor 
Party  in  England  consists  only  of  manual  workers.  It  has  also 
many  representatives  of  professional  people.  It  is  therefore  not 
true  that  the  Daily  Herald  represents  only  one  class — it  represents 
one  party,  but  it  has  all  classes  in  it.  Then  the  Manchester  Guardian 
has  a  very  great  national  influence.  Although  it  is  a  provincial 
paper,  it  has  a  national  influence,  and  represents  national  radical 
opinion. 

UNITED     STATES    CONSUL    SEEKS    TO     PREVENT 

WITNESSES  FROM  COMING  TO  TESTIFY 

ABOUT  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  make  an  in- 
quiry of  this  witness  that  I  think  might  be  part  of  her  preliminary 
testimony.  I  have  understood  that  you  ladies  had  some  difficulty  in 
getting  permission  to  come  over  here.  Before  you  go  into  your 
testimony  proper,  if  you  had  any  such  difficulty,  I  wish  you  would 
tell  the  Commission  about  it. 

A.  Yes.  When  the  invitation  was  received  from  this  Commis- 
sion by  our  national  executive  that  we  should  come  here  to  give 
evidence  before  this  Commission,  our  national  executive  had  con- 
siderable difficulty  deciding  whether  we  ought  to  come  or  ought  not 
to  come.  Obviously,  it  is  a  difficult  thing  to  come  out  of  one's  own 
country  into  another  country  and  discuss  a  matter  that  might  be 
considered  in  some  aspects  as  of  domestic  policy.  On  the  other 
hand,  as  we  were  international  and  had  branches  in  all  countries, 
we  realized  that  the  Irish  question  was  not  only  a  question  of  na- 
tional politics;  it  was  also  a  question  of  international  politics.  And 
so  we  applied  to  our  own  Foreign  Office  for  permission  to  come. 
When  we  applied  to  our  own  Foreign  Office,  the  passports  were 
issued  without  any  difficulty;  and  we  were  told  that  our  passports 
would  have  to  be  vised  by  the  American  Consul  in  Manchester.  I 
understood  that  that  was  a  mere  matter  of  formality,  and  therefore 
we  did  not  apply  as  early  as  we  might  have  done.  The  steamship 
on  which  we  came,  the  Baltic,  came  on  Wednesday,  the  eighth;  and 
on  the  sixth  we  applied  at  the  American  Consulate  to  have  our 
passports  vised.     The  visa  is  with  ordinary  officials  supposed  to  go 


535 

through  in  the  ordinary  course  of  business;  it  is  a  mere  matter  of 
formality,  after  one's  own  government  has  issued  a  passport.  But 
when  we  applied  to  the  American  Consul  in  Manchester  to  vise  our 
passports,  he  refused. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  His  name,  please? 

A.  Mr.  Wells.  Mr.  Wells  came  forward  and  said,  "I  refuse  to 
vise  these  passports."  Naturally,  I  was  very  much  astonished,  par- 
ticularly in  my  own  city  of  Manchester,  where  I  am  very  well 
known.  And  I  said,  "Mr.  Wells,  we  cannot  accept  that.  Would 
vou  mind  giving  me  some  reason  for  such  an  extraordinary  re- 
fusal?" And  he  said,  "We  are  not  encouraging  inquiries  in  Amer- 
ica into  the  state  of  affairs  in  Ireland."  And  I  told  him  that  I  did 
not  consider  that  that  was  a  sufficient  reply.  And  so  I  took  the  night 
train  up  to  London,  and  called  at  the  office  of  the  American  embassy 
and  also  on  the  American  Consul-General.  And  I  also  saw  some 
friends  who  had  diplomatic  influence  in  London.  I  was  assured  by 
the  Consul-General  ( I  am  not  sure  whether  it  was  the  Consul- 
General  or  one  of  his  assistants)  that  as  far  as  he  knew,  he  saw  no 
reason  why  the  passport  should  not  be  vised  by  the  American 
Consul  at  Manchester;  but  perhaps  he  was  not  satisfied  with  the 
bona  fides  of  Miss  Wilkinson  and  myself.  He  advised  me  to  go 
back  to  Manchester  and  see  him  again.  I  traveled  back,  arriving 
in  Manchester  Wednesday  morning.  The  boat  sailed  that  afternoon. 
And  Miss  Wilkinson  and  I,  with  a  friend,  called  again  at  the  office 
of  the  American  Consul  and  said  that  we  had  again  come  with 
reference  to  the  passports.  And  then,  after  extracting  from  us  a 
definite  promise  that  we  would  not  address  meetings,  engage  in  any 
propaganda,  or  grant  any  interviews  while  we  were  in  America,  he 
consented  to  vise  our  passports. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Will  you  repeat  that,  please? 

A.  Having  given  a  definite  undertaking  that  we  would  not  en- 
gage in  any  propaganda,  address  any  meetings,  or  give  any  inter- 
views while  in  America,  he  consented  to  vise  our  passports. 

Q.     What  is  his  full  name? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Miss  Wilkinson :  Mr.  F.  Wells. 

Q.     Is  he  an  Englishman  or  an  American? 

A.  I  don't  know,  but  I  should  judge  by  this  gentleman's  accent 
that  he  was  an  American,  but  his  policy  was  rather  English.  He 
extracted  from  us  that  very  definite  pledge,  and  then  we  were  al- 
lowed, three  hours  before  the  boat  sailed,  to  come  here. 


536 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Did  you  give  that  promise  in  writing? 

A.     No. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  in  his  conversation  on  either 
occasion  that  would  give  you  information  as  to  whether  he  was 
acting  under  instructions,  or  whether  the  action  was  taken  on  his 
own  volition? 

A.  I  don't  know,  but  the  Consul-General  in  London  said  he  was 
sure  that  he  was  not  acting  on  general  instructions,  but  on  his  own 
initiative.  And  the  intimation  to  me  was  that  he  had  some  terrible 
information  about  Miss  Wilkinson  and  myself. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  What  information  did  you  obtain 
from  the  American  embassy  in  London? 

A.  I  did  not  see  the  Ambassador,  but  a  secretary  told  me  that 
he  was  very  much  astonished  that  the  visa  had  been  refused. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Do  you  know  whether  the  Ambassador  at 
London  communicated  with  Mr.  Wells  at  Manchester? 

A.  Yes.  I  asked  that  he  should  do  so,  and  left  some  money  to 
pay  for  the  telegrams. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Do  you  know  what  information  he 
sent  to  the  Consul  at  Manchester? 

A.  I  was  not  informed.  We  only  can  draw  an  inference,  as  we 
say  in  Scotland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the 
embassy  required  you  to  pay  money? 

A.  I  was  asked  to  leave  a  deposit  to  pay  for  the  telegrams.  It 
was  later  refunded.     I  asked  for  it  back. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  Mr.  Wells  in  Manchester  say  that  he 
had  heard  from  London  between  Tuesday  night  and  Wednesday 
morning? 

A.     He  did  not  say  so,  but  I  knew  it  indirectly. 

Q.  But  after  hearing  from  London,  he  made  you  extend  certain 
promises? 

A.     Quite,  quite. 

Q.     And  your  mouth  is  sealed  from  talking  to  newspaper  men? 

A.  So.  I  might  say  that  on  the  small  slip  of  paper  on  which  we 
were  asked  to  put  in  our  business  for  going  to  America,  it  is  true 
I  only  wrote  in  the  word  "business,"  but  I  explained  to  the  secre- 
tary very  fully  what  I  was  going  to  do,  and  what  I  was  going  to 
state.  But  the  Consul  said,  in  spite  of  that,  that  we  only  had  written 
the  word  "business"  on  that  scrap  of  paper,  and  had  not  stated  what 
that  business  was.  But  physically  it  was  quite  impossible  to  do  so, 
for  there  was  no  room  on  that  little  piece  of  paper  at  all. 


537 

Mr.  Manly:  May  I  ask  a  question,  Mr.  Howe? 

Chairman  Howe:  Certainly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Before  you  went  to  the  Embassy  you  called  upon 
some  of  the  more  prominent  and  influential  liberals  in  London? 

A.     Yes,  but  I  would  not  care  to  give  their  names. 

Q.  But  you  think  it  is  very  probable  that  they  communicated 
with  the  Ambassador? 

A.  Yes.  I  felt  that  this  situation  was  so  peculiar  that  I  should 
use  any  influence  that  I  had.1 

INFLUENTIAL    ENGLISH    PERSONS    AND    ORGAN- 
IZATIONS PROMOTE  PEACE  WITH  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Now,  the  witness  can  go  back  to  the  news- 
paper matter. 

A.  Yes.  I  was  saying  that  the  Manchester  Guardian  has  a  very 
remarkable  influence  in  Britain,  even  though  it  is  a  provincial  news- 
paper. As  to  the  amount  of  its  circulation,  I  don't  know.  The 
Daily  News  and  Leader  is  at  present  the  daily  organ  of  the  Free 
Liberals,  and  has  a  very  large  circulation.  And  these  newspapers 
for  the  last  few  months,  at  any  rate,  have  devoted  a  very  large 
amount  of  space  to  the  demand  that  the  Government  should  recon- 
sider its  policy  in  Ireland.  Not  only  have  the  newspapers  been 
doing  that,  but  organizations  like  our  own  are  acting  on  the  same 
policy.  We  not  only  have  the  Women's  International  League,  but 
also  the  Peace  for  Ireland  Committee.  On  that  committee  we  have 
several  very  well-known  politicians  who  are  sitting,  and  also  some 
very  well-known  men  and  women.  And  they  have  been  sitting  in  a 
committee  room  of  the  House  of  Commons,  and  they  are  working 
very  hard,  by  spreading  literature  and  propaganda,  to  give  a  knowl- 
edge of  what  is  happening  in  Ireland,  and  creating  a  very  definite 
public  opinion  on  the  matter.  And  then,  of  course,  we  have  the 
Labor  Party,  which,  as  you  know,  has  sent  several  missions  to  Ire- 
land, and  is  taking  up  the  Irish  question  with  a  great  deal  of  vigor 
at  the  present  time. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask,  for  our  benefit,  if  you 
will  elaborate  a  little  on  that?  Can  you  tell  us  who  some  of  the 
people  are  on  that  Peace  for  Ireland  Committee,  and  can  you  tell 
some  of  their  names? 


1  Mrs.  Robinson  and  Miss  Wilkinson,  at  the  request  of  the  Commission, 
swore  to  the  statements  herein  made  concerning  the  attempt  of  U.  S. 
Consul  F.  Wells  to  prevent  their  coming  to  America  to  testify,  which 
affidavit  was  submitted  to  the  \J.  S.  Secretary  of  State  December  23,  1920, 
for  official  action. 


538 

A.  Yes.  Mrs.  H.  M.  Swanwick,  who  is  a  very  well-known 
woman  in  Britain,  a  very  well-known  journalist  and  author,  a  well- 
known  publicist.  Lord  Henry  Bentinck  is  a  member  of  it.  He  is 
a  member  of  one  of  the  established  families,  a  life-long  member 
of  the  Conservative  Party,  who  has  taken  a  very  strong  position 
indeed  on  this  Irish  matter.  If  any  member  of  this  Commission 
has  seen  the  files  of  the  London  newspapers,  you  will  see  that  Lord 
Henry  Bentinck  has  asked  questions  almost  every  day  on  the  Irish 
question  at  question  time  in  the  House  of  Commons.  Sir  John 
Simon  is  also  a  member — one  of  our  best-known  lawyers,  and  a 
leading  politician ;  and  he  also  has  taken  a  very  strong  stand  on  this 
matter.  Commander  Kenworthy,  who  is  a  member  of  the  House  of 
Commons,  a  Liberal  Member,  has  also  devoted  considerable  time 
and  very  much  attention  to  bringing  out  the  facts  about  Ireland, 
such  as  he  could  obtain,  from  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood.  And  Miss 
Maud  Roydon,  who  is  perhaps  known  here  as  an  eminent  woman 
preacher.  I  should  think  that  Miss  Maud  Roydon  is  one  of  the 
best-known  women  in  England  at  the  present  time,  and  one  of  the 
most  influential.  Lord  Buckmaster  is  also  a  member  of  it,  and 
Miss  Buckmaster  is  also  acting  as  its  secretary. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Mr.  Hobson,  the  well-known  econo- 
mist, is  also  a  member,  is  he  not? 

A.     Yes,  and  Ramsay  MacDonald  and  J.  J.  Mallon. 

Q.     Lady  Courtney? 

A.     Yes,  Lady  Courtney,  and  Captain  Fitzhodgings  Berkeley. 

BASIS  OF  ANY  SETTLEMENT  IS  SELF-DETERMI- 
NATION FOR  IRISH   PEOPLE 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  I  wish  you  would  give  us  an  idea,  if  you 
can,  of  the  position  that  these  various  persons  named  in  these  vari- 
ous organizations  take  on  the  Irish  question.  Do  they  stand  for 
freedom  for  Ireland,  or  for  some  modifications  of  Ireland's  demand 
for  freedom? 

A.  I  think  at  the  moment  what  they  stand  for  first  and  foremost 
is  a  reconsidering  of  the  policy  of  the  Government.  And  secondly, 
they  want  some  settlement  of  the  Irish  question  on  the  basis  of 
granting  self-determination  to  the  Irish  people.  But  I  am  quite 
certain  that  no  further  agreement  would  be  found  among  these 
various  names  as  to  the  form  that  this  should  take. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  There  probably  would  be  some  disagreement 
on  that? 

A.     Yes,  I  am  quite  sure  there  would. 


539 

Q.     But  they  agree  on  these  two  things? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  bring  this  out  further?  Do 
they  demand  that  the  troops  be  withdrawn? 

A.  Yes,  they  demand  that  the  troops  be  at  least  withdrawn  to 
the  seaboard;  but  whether  they  agree  that  the  troops  should  be 
entirely  withdrawn  from  Ireland  I  could  not  say.  I  might  as  well 
bring  out  here  that  you  find  the  troops  going  about  in  small  iso- 
lated bodies.  The  railroads,  as  you  know,  have  refused  to  carry 
munitions  of  war  or  troops  that  are  armed.  That  means  that  the 
troops  must  go  about  from  point  to  point  sometimes  in  quite  small 
bodies.  The  policemen  have  also  done  that.  And  that  has  made 
it  comparatively  simple  for  a  member,  say,  of  some  secret  society 
in  Ireland,  if  some  such  society  exists,  or  any  Sinn  Feiner,  if  he 
feels  exasperated — it  provides  opportunity  for  the  murders  that 
have  occurred.  Many  of  us  have  felt  that  it  was  a  very  unfortunate 
method  for  the  distribution  of  the  troops  in  Ireland.  And  I  am 
sure  that  every  member  of  that  Peace  for  Ireland  Committee  would 
say  that  the  troops  should  be  withdrawn  at  least  to  the  seaboard, 
and  that  the  patrolling  of  lonely  country  roads  should  immediately 
cease. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Would  they  agree  to  the  second 
point,  that  Ireland  should  be  given  some  kind  of  self-determination? 

A.  Well,  you  see  that  I  am  not  a  member  of  that  Peace  for 
Ireland  Committee.  Therefore,  while  I  am  quite  willing  to  answer 
general  questions  as  to  both  our  program  and  that  of  the  Peace  for 
Ireland  Committee,  I   cannot  speak  with   any  certainty. 

Q.  You  understand  that  in  asking  you,  we  are  perhaps  going 
ahead  of  what  would  be  done  in  exceedingly  formal  legal  testimony. 
But  we  want  information  along  this  line.  It  is  peculiarly  important 
for  us  to  know  what  is  meant  in  England  by  a  reversal  of  the  Gov- 
ernment policy.  Now,  we  know  that  there  is  probably  no  one 
opinion.  We  would  be  willing  to  assume  that.  But  we  want  to 
get  as  clear  a  picture  of  it  as  possible.  That  is  why  I  asked  these 
questions. 

A.  Yes,  quite.  What  we,  the  Women's  International  League, 
did  was  to  send  this  committee  to  Ireland  to  get  first-hand  informa- 
tion and  the  facts,  as  well  as  they  could  be  learned,  about  the 
situation  there.  We  knew  that  the  problem  could  not  be  settled 
all  at  once,  but  we  felt  that  there  were  certain  first  steps  that  should 
be  taken  immediately.  We  therefore  advocated  the  immediate  re- 
lease of  Irish  political  prisoners  and  the  offering  of  a  truce,  during 


540 

which  all  forces  should  be  withdrawn,  and  the  placing  of  responsi- 
bility for  keeping  order  in  the  hands  of  Irish  local  bodies,  thus 
making  a  situation  in  which  the  Irish  people  could  determine  their 
own  form  of  government.  And  I  should  think  you  would  find  a 
universal  opinion  among  those  people  I  have  mentioned  that  this 
should  be  done. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  that  these  organizations  favor  withdrawing  the 
troops  from  Ireland? 

A.  I  believe  that  the  presence  of  the  troops  in  Ireland  has  led 
to  very  great  bloodshed.  My  organization  believes  that  they  should 
at  least  be  withdrawn  to  the  seaboard. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  self-determination  that  the  Irish  people 
should  determine  their  form  of  government,  outside  or  inside  of  the 
Empire? 

A.     I  do. 

Q.     Does  your  organization? 

A.  Yes.  But  I  want  to  make  it  quite  clear  that  I  am  not  answer- 
ing for  all  these  organizations,  particularly  the  newspapers.  Of 
course  you  must  remember  that  a  very  great  number  of  people  agree 
with  Mr.  Asquith,  who  has  stood  for  the  dominion  form  of  self- 
government.  That  is  a  point  of  view  which  I  should  say  is  much 
more  widely  held  by  the  bodies  of  which  I  have  spoken  than  the 
other  point  of  view,  when  I  say  that  I  and  my  organization  favor 
self-determination. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  would  mean  giving  Ireland  the  same 
kind  of  government  that  is  given  to  Canada? 

A.     Precisely.  , 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  would  say  that  the  home  rule 
policy  of  the  British  Government  scarcely  represents  the  mind  of 
England? 

A.  Quite.  I  wonder  if  it  would  not  be  worth  while  to  trace  the 
stage  where  public  opinion  is  at  in  England  today? 

Chairman  Howe:  That  would  be  very  interesting. 

ULSTER  REBELLION  SUPPORTED  BY  ENGLISH 
ARISTOCRATS 

The  Witness:  Well,  in  1914,  before  the  war,  when  the  Home  Rule 
Bill  was  placed  on  the  statute  books,  although  it  was  never  made 
operative  at  that  time,  you  had  Sir  Edward  Carson  and  F.  I.  Smith, 
now  our  Lord  Chancellor,  who  were  the  recognized  leaders  of  the 
Ulsterites,  protesting  in  the  name  of  the  people  in  the  six  counties 
(it  was  sjx  at  that  time;  now  it  is  four),  who  protested  that  they 


541 

would  not  accept  separation  from  Great  Britain.  And  you  had  at 
that  time  the  Ulster  Volunteers  very  effectively  armed  and  drilled. 
You  had  up  in  northeast  Ulster  a  very  well  drilled  and  disciplined 
and  armed  body  of  troops.  The  arms,  as  you  know,  were  obtained 
partly  from  big  firms  in  Britain  and  partly  from  Germany  when 
you  had  the  gun-running  at  Larne;  and  at  that  time  the  lawlessness 
in  Ireland  was  all  in  the  northeast  of  Ulster.  And  lawlessness  in 
Ulster  at  that  time  had  the  support  of  a  certain  proportion  of  the 
aristocracy  and  the  Conservative  Party,  which  represented  the  aris- 
tocracy in  Great  Britain.  When  you  talk  of  the  northeast  Ulster 
situation,  you  must  realize  that  a  large  section  of  Conservative  and 
aristocratic  opinion  in  England  upheld  them  in  their  open  rebellion 
against  the  Home  Rule  Bill.  They  imported  arms  and  got  ready  to 
fight  against  its  enforcement.     And  then  came  the  war. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  That  opinion  is  a  powerful  one? 

A.     Yes,  it  is  an  important  factor. 

Q.     It  has  been  more  or  less  the  ruling  opinion? 

A.  Yes,  yes.  One  feels  that  these  questions  can  only  be  an- 
swered by  paragraphs. 

EXECUTIONS  AND  IMPRISONMENTS  SOLIDIFY 
IRELAND  FOR  SINN  FEIN 

And  then  after  that,  in  1914,  came  the  war.  And  Redmond,  in 
the  name  of  Ireland,  called  upon  Ireland  in  the  British  Parliament 
to  fight  for  the  right  of  small  democracies.  And  then  after  that 
very  little  about  Ireland  appeared  in  our  newspapers.  Naturally, 
the  war  occupied  the  attention  of  the  great  mass  of  people  in  Great 
Britain,  because,  of  course,  the  war  came  into  our  work  and  family 
life,  perhaps  more  than  it  did  in  this  country.  And  after  that  came 
the  1916  Rebellion.  Before  the  1916  Rebellion  the  Sinn  Fein  move- 
ment was  not  a  movement  whose  existence  was  recognized  by  many 
poeple  in  Great  Britain.  It  was  a  literary  movement,  an  educational 
movement.  It  was  not,  to  the  knowledge  of  most  people,  a  political 
movement.  And  then  after  the  Rebellion  you  had  the  execution 
of  the  leaders,  which  was  protracted  over  a  good  many  days. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Just  why  were  those  executions  protracted 
over  a  great  many  days? 

A.     I  don't  know. 

Q.     Just  for  terrorism? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  have  no  opinion.  And  of  course  the  shoot- 
ings in  cold  blood  after  the  Rebellion  had  been  subdued,  these 
executions  naturally  aroused  a  very  great  depth  of  feeling  in  Ire- 
land. 


542 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Was  that  without  trial  or  court-martial? 

A.  It  was  under  courts-martial.  Ireland  at  the  time,  of  course, 
was  under  martial  law.     Dublin  was. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  It  aroused  a  great  deal  of  feeling  in 
Ireland,  but  not  in  England? 

A.  It  aroused  a  great  feeling  in  England,  especially  in  Labor 
circles,  and  outside  of  Labor  circles  too. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  It  almost  immediately  made  Ireland  Sinn 
Fein? 

A.  Yes,  it  gave  support  to  the  growth  of  the  Sinn  Fein  demand 
for  absolute  independence  in  Ireland.  Before  1914  there  was  very 
little  talk  of  absolute  independence  in  Ireland.  After  the  1916 
Rebellion  and  the  executions  in  Ireland,  the  demand  for  inde- 
pendence assumed  very  much  greater  importance,  and  the  Sinn  Fein 
movement  spread.  Then  in  1917  and  1918  there  were  many  arrests 
of  suspected  people  in  Ireland — people  suspected  of  disloyal 
opinion. 

ENGLISH  VIOLENCE  PRECEDES  SHOOTING  OF 
POLICEMEN 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  were  these  people  treated?  What 
method  of  trial  did  they  get? 

A.  Well,  that  is  answered  by  this  summary  which  I  have  pre- 
pared: 

In  the  year  1917  no  policeman  was  killed,  but  the  police  and 
military  raided  private  houses  and  arrested  394  persons  for  political 
opinions,  deported  24  persons  without  charge  or  trial,  suppressed 
meetings  and  newspapers,  and  killed  several  civilians.  I  think  that 
is  just  as  good  a  summary  as  I  can  give  you.1 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:   Deported  means  deported  to  England? 

A.  Yes,  deported  to  England  and  kept  away  from  their  own 
country. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:   That  is  1917? 

A.     Yes,  1917. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  From  what  source  does  that  information 
come? 

A.     From  the  newspapers  ordinarily. 

Q.     And  from  your  investigations? 

A.     No,  but  it  is  a  matter  of  general  notice. 

Miss  Wilkinson :  They  were  taken  from  a  White  Paper  published 
by  the  House  of  Commons  by  a  friend  of  mine. 

Senator  Walsh:    Very  well. 


See  summary  in  Exhibit  I. 


543 


BRITISH   GOVERNMENT  REFUSES  TO   SUPPRESS 
ARMED  REBELLION  IN  ULSTER 

Mr.  Basil  Manly:   May  I  ask  a  question? 

Chairman  Howe:    Certainly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  To  go  back  to  the  Ulster  movement,  the  Carson 
movement.  Is  it  true  that  Sir  Edward  Carson  defied  the  Govern- 
ment to  impose  its  Home  Rule  Bill  on  Ulster? 

A.     Yes,  it  is  true. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  an  army  was  raised  and  armed  by  Sir  Edward 
Carson  to  prevent  its  enforcement? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Previous  to  the  war? 

A.     Yes,  previous  to  the  war. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly :  Was  there  any  action  taken  by  the  British  Gov- 
ernment to  suppress  that  revolution  or  rebellion? 

A.     No,  no  action  was  taken. 

Q.  What  action  did  certain  sections  of  the  British  Army  take, 
do  you  recall? 

A.  Yes,  I  recall,  but  my  information  of  that  was  extremely  hazy. 
It  was  said  in  the  press,  and  it  was  not  contradicted  by  the  Gov- 
ernment, that  the  soldiers  at  the  Curragh  Camp  in  Ireland  would 
refuse  to  try  to  suppress  the  actions  of  the  Ulster  Volunteers  if 
ordered  to  do  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  punishment,  any  disciplinary  action 
that  was  taken? 

A.     There  was  none. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Now  go  back  to  1918. 

DESPITE   MURDER,   ARREST,    AND    DEPORTATION 
OF  IRISHMEN,  NO  POLICE  KILLED  IN  1918 

A.  In  the  year  1918  no  police  were  killed.  One  hundred  and  ten 
political  arrests  took  place.  Seventy-seven  persons  were  deported 
without  trial.  Fairs  and  markets  were  suppressed,  and  five  civilians 
were  killed. 

Q.  Now,  just  for  the  sake  of  the  record,  is  this  information  from 
the  same  source? 

A.     Miss  Wilkinson :  Yes,  taken  from  a  White  Paper. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  White  Paper  being  what, — a  Government 
White  Paper? 

A.     Yes,  published  in  response  to  a  Parliamentary  request. 


544 

Mrs.  Robinson:  Yes,  and  it  was  published  in  the  newspapers  gen- 
erally throughout  England  and  not  contradicted. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  know  whether  up  to  this  time  the 
British  troops  had  been  stationed  in  Ireland  in  large  numbers? 

A.  Well,  there  always  have  been  these  large  British  camps  in 
Ireland.  I  do  not  know  how  many  soldiers  are  habitually  kept  at 
the  Curragh  Camp.  , 

Q.     In  1917  and  1918? 

A.     Always.     There  always  were. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  When  you  sav  six  civilians  were 
killed 

A.     Five  civilians. 

Q.     Do  you  mean  that  they  were  killed  by  the  Government  forces? 

A.  Yes,  or  by  the  police  in  skirmishes.  You  see,  in  Ireland  the 
police  go  about  heavily  armed.  They  are  always  a  half-militarized 
force. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    And  always  have  been? 

A.     They  are  not  a  civilian  force.    They  are  half  military. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  go  back  to  the  question  from 
which  we  started?  About  the  development  of  British  opinion:  what 
was  happening  in  Great  Britain? 

A.  Yes,  I  was  going  on  to  1918,  was  I  not?  After  the  armistice 
in  1918  we  had  a  general  election  in  December,  1918. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  May  I  ask,  before  you  go  on  to  the 
armistice,  in  regard  to  the  enforcement  of  conscription  in  Ireland, 
or  the  non-enforcement  of  conscription  in  Ireland,  and  what  influ- 
ence that  had  on  British  public  opinion? 

A.  I  think  Miss  Wilkinson  could  answer  that  better  than  I.  I 
am  quite  sure  she  would  be  very  glad  to  deal  with  that  as  part  of  her 
testimony.  I  do  not  feel  that  my  impressions  are  sufficiently  clear- 
cut  to  answer  that. 

COALITION'S   KHAKI  ELECTION  VICTORY   MAKES 
CARSONISM  GOVERNMENT  POLICY 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  would  like  to  have  the  witness  just  con- 
tinue this  chronologically  of  what  happened  in  Ireland.  It  will 
make  it  much  clearer  in  the  record. 

A.  Yes.  Then  in  1918  you  had  the  general  election,  and  you 
had  the  Coalition  Government  returned  with  a  tremendous  majority, 
and  Sir  Edward  Carson  and  his  Irish  policy  as  an  integral  part 
of  the  Government. 


545 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  is,  his  policy  was  in  a  way 
approved  by  the  election  ? 

A.     \es,  certainly. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:    But  the  general  election  was  not  on  that  issue. 

A.  The  general  election  was  not  on  that  issue.  But,  you  see, 
the  Coalition  group  had  adopted  his  policy  as  its  own  in  the  agree- 
ments reached  for  the  formation  of  the  Cabinet  and  the  fight  over 
the  general  election;  and  it  was  perfectly  evident  that  the  Irish 
policy  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  adopted  as  an  integral  part  of 
the  Coalition  policy  for  the  British  Government  in  order  to  secure 
the  votes  which  he  undoubtedly  represented  in  the  Cabinet  and  in 
the  Government. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  I  confess  I  have  never  been  able  to  under- 
stand why  Sir  Edward  Carson  could  exercise  so  much  power  and 
influence  in  the  Government.  What  are  the  sources  of  his  strength 
and  power? 

A.  I  am  not  a  member  of  the  Cabinet.  I  am  afraid  I  could  not 
say.  All  I  can  say  is  that  in  order  to  gain  the  support  of  Sir 
Edward  Carson  and  all  the  aristocratic  influences  he  stands  for, 
in  order  to  secure  that,  the  Coalition  Government  adopted  as  an 
integral  part  of  its  policy  the  policy  of  Sir  Edward  Carson  in  Ireland- 

Q.     You  were  discussing  the  elections  of  1918. 

A.  Under  that  is  the  point  that  the  Commission  ought  to  bear 
in  mind,  that  the  election  of  1918  resulted  in  the  adoption  of  the 
Irish  policy  of  Sir  Edward  Carson. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:   Briefly,  what  was  that  policy? 

A.     At  that  time  it  was  definitely  the  Ulster  policy. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  The  Unionist  policy? 

A.  Yes,  the  Unionist  policy  at  that  time.  Since  then  it  has  been 
very  considerably  modified.  Since  1918  very  considerably  modified. 
Then  in  December,  1918,  you  had  very  definitely  the  Irish  Parlia- 
ment elected  and  the  Irish  members  of  Parliament  refusing  to  come 
to  the  British  House  of  Commons,  setting  up  an  independent  Par- 
liament of  its  own  committed  very  definitely  to  Irish  independence; 
while  you  had  the  Coalition  Government  committed  to  Sir  Edward 
Carson's  policy.     And  the  suppressions  went  on  in  Ireland. 

REPUBLICAN  ELECTION  VICTORY  IN  IRELAND 
MARKS  START  OF  WAR  FOR  INDEPENDENCE 
Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Would  it  be  accurate  to  say  that  the  result  of 
that  1918  election  was  that  the  Ulster  policy  secured  control  of  the 
British  Government  and  that  the  Sinn  Fein  policy  secured  control 
of  the  situation  in  Ireland? 


546 

A.  Yes,  as  far  as  82  per  cent  of  the  people  of  Ireland  were 
concerned,  the  Sinn  Fein  policy  secured  the  support  of  82  per  cent 
of  the  electorate  of  Ireland,  further  confirmed  by  the  elections  of 
January,  1920.  The  shooting  of  police  did  not  begin  until  January, 
1919;  and  the  claim  is  made  that  the  policemen  attacked  were 
policemen  who  had  been  especially  active  in  hunting  down  Sinn 
Feiners. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  When  you  say  that  the  shooting  of 
policemen  did  not  begin  until  a  certain  date,  did  you  get  that  in- 
formation from  any  Government  White  Paper? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:   That  is  an  indisputable  fact? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  an  indisputable  fact.  And,  of  course,  it  rather 
points  to  the  fact  that  the  shooting  began  in  Ireland  as  a  result 
of  the  outrages  of  the  preceding  three  years. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:   At  what  date  did  the  shooting  begin? 

A.  In  January,  1919.  Of  course,  by  January,  1919,  you  had  the 
Easter  Rebellion  and  the  execution  of  the  leaders  and  the  1918  elec- 
tions, and  afterwards  the  municipal  elections  of  January,  1920,  all 
strengthening  Sinn  Fein  feeling  in  Ireland;  and  on  the  other  hand, 
following  the  general  elections,  the  acceptance  of  Sir  Edward  Car- 
son as  a  member  of  the  British  Cabinet. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  That  is  the  election  of  1918? 

A.     Yes,  December,  1918. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  And  the  acceptance  of  Carson  in  the  Cabi- 
net was  construed  by  a  great  number  of  the  Irish  people  as  the 
end  of  dominion  home  rule  and  the  end  of  their  hopes  for  the 
rights  of  small  nations? 

A.  Yes,  right.  And  also  the  end  of  the  possibility  of  constitu- 
tional agitation. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  say  that  Sir  Edward  Carson  was  ac- 
cepted by  the  Coalition  Cabinet.  Was  that  an  action  agreed  to  by 
the  English  people,  or  was  it  a  political  trade, — certain  forces  got 
together  and  went  before  the  electorate,  and  he  was  one  of  the  forces 
gathered  together? 

A.     You  could  not  legitimately  call  that  a  trick. 

Senator  Walsh:    No,  a  trade. 

The  Witness :  Yes,  it  was  a  trade. 

Senator  Norris:  You  see,  a  trade  in  poli  ics  is  very  often  a  trick. 

The  Witness:   I  presume  you  are  a  politician. 


547 

Senator  Norris:    No,  I  get  that  from  observation. 

Commissioner  Newman:  He  is  not  a  politician,  Mrs.  Robinson,  he 
is  a  senator. 

Senator  Norris:    That  makes  it  still  worse. 

The  Witness:  Well,  trade  or  trick,  it  was  a  legitimate  deal  for 
the  Coalition  Government  as  far  as  those  things  go. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  I  wanted  to  bring  out  was  whether  the 
mind  of  the  people  of  England  was  concentrated  on  rendering  a  ver- 
dict on  the  outcome  of  the  war,  and  the  people  were  not  mindful 
of  the  Irish  issue. 

A.  To  a  very  great  extent,  that  is  exactly  what  happened.  The 
1918  election  was  fought  on  war  issues. 

Q.  And  yet  the  make-up  of  the  Coalition  Government  was  such 
that  it  very  definitely  included  a  suppression  of  the  home  rule 
aspirations  of  the  Irish  people. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  a  fact. 

Senator  Walsh:  That  is  the  first  time  that  has  been  presented  to  us. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Would  it  be  true  to  say  that  war 
psychology  determined  that  election;  that  the  cry  was  to  make 
Germany  pay  the  cost  of  the  war  and  hang  the  Kaiser,  but  the  re- 
sult was  reaction  in  England? 

UNINFORMED   ENGLISH   PUBLIC   NOT   AWARE    OF 
IRISH  CRISIS 

A.  Yes,  that  is  what  happened.  But  for  myself  I  should  not 
put  it  so  crudely.  I  don't  think  that  the  average  English  elector  in 
that  election  gave  a  thought  to  Ireland.  I  don't  think  that  one  elector 
out  of  a  hundred  was  at  all  concerned  with  Ireland  at  all.  But  the 
master  minds  behind  the  election  were.  And  that,  therefore,  when 
those  atrocities  began  in  Ireland,  the  average  Britisher  had  no  clew 
whatever  as  to  why  those  atrocities  should  begin.  And  to  the  aver- 
age British  mind  there  is  a  very  great  repugnance  to  secret  murder, — 
that  is,  murder  in  lonely  places.  The  difference  in  the  psychology 
between  the  two  races  might  account  for  that.  The  average  Brit- 
isher, however  brutal  he  might  be,  would  not  resort  to  secret  murder. 
And  then  when  in  1919  those  secret  murders  began,  it  created  a 
state  of  feeling  against  Ireland  which  still  continues.  I  hope  I  have 
made  that  clear,  for  it  is  a  very  important  thing. 

Commissioner  Addams:    You  have  made  it  very,  very  clear. 

The  Witness:  You  see,  our  newspapers  had  been  very  reticent 
about  what  was  happening  in  Ireland.  We  did  not  see  why  the 
situation   in   Ireland  should   be  so   desperate,   why   policemen   were 


548 

being  shot,  why  these  outrages  occurred.  Of  course,  the  ordinary 
people  thought  we  were  treating  Ireland  quite  well,  and  could  not 
understand. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  want  to  rest  a  moment,  Mrs.  Rob- 
inson? 

A.     No.     But  that  is  the  end  of  that  chronology. 

PUBLIC  MEETINGS  IN  ENGLAND  TO  INFORM 
PEOPLE 

Q.  You  left  some  matters  in  regard  to  the  organizations  in  Eng- 
land that  are  investigating  the  Irish  question  uncompleted. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Just  what  steps  are  they  taking  in  regard  to  the  Irish  ques- 
tion,— the  Peace  for  Ireland  Committee  and  your  own  organization 
and  the  Labor  organization? 

A.  Well,  I  have  already  indicated  that  our  own  organization  is 
carrying  on  and  actively  conducting  propaganda  in  public  meet- 
ings. The  Peace  for  Ireland  Committee  is  holding  wonderful  public 
meetings  also.  They  had  a  meeting  in  Manchester  at  which  Sir 
John  Simon  spoke,  and  it  drew  one  of  the  largest  audiences  I  have 
seen  there  for  any  occasion. 

BRITISH  GOVERNMENT  IN  IRELAND  BROKEN 
DOWN  SINCE  1918 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  am  afraid  that  we  interrupted  you  at  the 
time  of  the  elections  in  1918.  There  is  an  intervening  two  years 
that  is  not  covered.  What  was  the  development  of  opinion  for  the 
next  two  years? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  We  came  down  to  January,  1919,  and  the  begin- 
ning of  those  atrocities.  You  had,  of  course,  the  Irish  Parliament. 
Their  M.  P.'s  did  not  come  over  to  Britain,  but  organized  their 
own  Parliament  in  Dublin.  Then  you  had  further  unrest  and  fur- 
ther oppression.  And  you  see,  we  have  reached  the  situation  that 
exists  today.  I  don't  think  there  is  anything  of  value  to  add  to 
that  sketch.  I  should  think  that  what  has  happened  since  January, 
1919,  is  what  the  Commission  already  knows. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Well,  assume  the  Commission  does  not 
know,  Mrs.  Robinson. 

A.  Well,  beginning  with  January,  1919,  you  had  a  number  of 
great  movements  of  troops  over  to  Ireland  heavily  armed.  Those 
troops  began  the  raids  and  the  hunting  up  of  Sinn  Feiners.  Then 
you  had  the  complete  breakdown   of  the  British  government  over 


549 

the  greater  part  of  Ireland,  and  the  growth  of  the  Sinn  Fein  gov- 
ernment, until  you  really  have  today  two  governments  in  Ireland, 
the  Sinn  Fein  Government  and  the  British  Government.  I  spoke 
to  someone  who  is  in  touch  with  the  military  in  Ireland,  and  that 
was  the  expressed  opinion  of  a  man  in  fairly  high  position  in  the 
Army,  that  you  have  got  two  governments  in  Ireland,  the  Sinn  Fein 
Parliament,  of  which  Miss  Wilkinson  can  speak  much  more  accu- 
rately than  I ;  and  you  have  the  British  Government.  And  you  have 
this  policy  of  atrocities  and  reprisals.     That  is  the  situation  now. 

PERSONAL  OBSERVATIONS   IN  ULSTER 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Then  you  think  you  are  down  to  the  place 
where  you  can  describe  to  this  Commission  what  you  actually  saw? 

A.  Yes.  I  shall  not  attempt  to  cover  all  of  Ireland.  I  think 
Miss  Wilkinson  could  describe  conditions  in  the  south  and  west. 
I  did  not  visit  those  parts. 

Q.  But  you  could  tell  yourself  what  you  saw  in  the  parts  you 
did  visit. 

A.     Yes,  in  Ulster. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  May  I  raise  one  more  question  about  public 
opinion  in  England?  You  said  awhile  ago  that  the  original  Sir 
Edward  Carson  policy  has  been  modified  by  events. 

A.  Yes.  Perhaps  I  can  better  explain  that  with  my  own  expe- 
riences in  Ulster. 

Q.  Yes,  perhaps.  But  I  only  wanted  to  know,  before  you  closed 
your  testimony,  why  a  policy  based  on  absolute  Unionism  should 
become  changed  to  something  else. 

A.  Yes,  I  think  that  can  be  covered  by  my  experiences  in  north- 
east Ulster,  where  in  October  I  visited  Belfast  and  Lisburn. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh 

A.     Yes,  this  year. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  When  you  were  a  member  of  that  committee? 

A.  Yes.  I  visited  northeast  Ulster  because  I  believe  that  a 
possibility  of  settlement  lies  in  northeast  Ulster. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Will  you  just  give  your  experiences 
in  Ireland  then? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  that  will  be  best.  The  members  of  the  Com- 
mittee who  went  to  Ulster  were  Mrs.  Catherine  Chisholm,  M.  Mew- 
hort,  Mrs.  Agnes  Dollan,  and  I. 

Q.     These  were  all  English  women? 

A.     Two  of  them  are  English  and  two  Scotch.     While  we  were 


550 

there  we  interviewed  a  good  many  people,  a  considerable  number 
of  Belfast  city  councillors,  leaders  of  the  Unionist  Party.  The  co- 
operative movement  is  very  strong  in  that  part  of  Ireland.  We 
devoted  a  fair  amount  of  time  and  attention  to  the  leaders  of  the 
cooperative  movement  and  the  leaders  of  the  Cooperative  Guild. 
Then  we  interviewed  a  considerable  number  of  the  Expelled  Work- 
ers' Committee  (I  shall  explain  later  what  that  is),  and  a  number 
of  representative  citizens,  so  as  to  try  to  get  an  all-around  view  of 
the  situation.  In  Belfast  at  the  present  time  there  is  a  very  great 
number  of  soldiers,  heavily  armed,  to  be  seen  in  the  streets,  and 
a  very  great  number  of  heavily  armed  constables.  Every  town  you 
come  across  is  an  exhibition  of  force,  of  military  force.  From  all 
of  those  sources  we  got  a  pretty  consecutive  narrative  as  to  what 
had  been  happening  recently  in  Belfast.  There  was  agreement  as 
to  facts,  but  there  was  not  agreement  as  to  the  deductions  from 
the  facts. 

UNIONISTS  LOSE  HOLD   IN  BELFAST   ELECTIONS 

In  the  local  elections  this  spring  in  Belfast,  which  were  held 
under  the  proportional  representation  act,  for  the  first  time  a 
breach  was  made  in  the  domination  of  the  Unionist  Party  in  the 
City  Council.  Out  of  sixty  councillors  elected,  twenty-five  repre- 
sented Nationalists  and  Labor  and  Sinn  Fein  and  Socialist  opinion, 
— twenty-five  out  of  sixty. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  You  mean  twenty-five  out  of  sixty? 

A.  Yes,  twenty-five  out  of  sixty.  Up  to  this  time  there  had  been 
an  unquestioned  domination  of  the  Unionists.  This  was  a  very  great 
section  of  different  opinion  which  appeared  to  act  more  or  less 
together  as  a  group. 

SEMI-LITERATE    BELFAST    POPULATION 
MANIPULATED  BY  POLITICIANS 

The  reasons  which  were  given  for  this  very  extraordinary  change 
in  public  opinion  in  Belfast  were  rather  conflicting.  I  think  for  a 
moment  I  had  better  digress.  In  Belfast,  of  course,  you  have  a 
very  strong  Protestant  feeling.  On  the  gable  ends  of  cottage  houses 
you  will  find  a  huge  painting.  You  will  find  these  paintings  out- 
side nearly  all  the  public  houses.  They  are  all  the  same.  There 
is  a  large  figure  representing  a  man  in  a  riding  coat,  bigger  than 
life,  with  a  cocked  hat  and  brilliant  feathers,  crossing  a  bright  blue 
stream  with  green  banks.  You  will  find  that  all  over  Belfast.  And 
above  it  is  written,  "William  III   Crossing  the  Boyne,   1690."     In 


551 

the  streets  of  Belfast  in  school  hours  a  very  great  number  of  chil- 
dren were  to  be  seen,  children  of  school  age.  As  a  teacher  before 
my  marriage.  I  was  very  much  struck  by  that  fact — the  enormous 
number  of  children  of  school  age  that  were  in  the  streets  of  Belfast 
during  school  hours.  And  I  made  it  my  business  to  find  out  from 
a  very  well-known  Belfast  woman  what  was  the  reason  for  it.  I 
was  told  that  there  were  not  nearly  enough  school  accommodations 
in  Belfast  for  the  Protestant  children,  and  that  had  been  true  for  a 
great  many  years.  That  lady  said  that  between  two  and  three  thou- 
sand school  places  were  short  in  Belfast.  That  means  that  in  the 
Protestant  population  of  Belfast  you  are  producing  a  semi-literate 
population,  and  they  are  being  educated  by  these  oil  paintings. 
William  III  has  been  made  a  political  figure,  and  it  has  produced 
in  Belfast  a  population  that  is  very  easily  manipulated  by  the 
politicians. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  This  school  question  has  come  up 
once  before.  The  schools  in  Belfast  are  not  built  by  public  money. 
Can  you  tell  us  something  about  that? 

A.  You  see,  in  England  and  Scotland  there  are  school  rates, 
which  is  a  very  important  part  of  educational  money.  And  that  is 
supplemented  by  the  national  grants.  In  Belfast  there  is  no  rate 
for  educational  purposes.  Although  Belfast  is  a  very  wealthy  city, 
there  are  no  adequate  provisions  for  education. 

Q.     Are  there  denominational  schools  in  Belfast? 

A.  Yes,  of  course.  The  Catholic  children  and  the  Protestant 
children  do  not  go  to  the  same  schools.  And,  curiously  enough, 
the  Catholic  population  of  Belfast  is  very  much  better  educated 
than  the  Protestant  population. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  is  the  reason  for  that?  Is  it  because 
the  Catholic  Church  is  more  active  and  more  concerned  in  pro- 
viding education  in  schools? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  more  concerned  in  providing  schools  for  its  chil- 
dren. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  It  is  more  accustomed  to  doing  that, 
I  suppose. 

A.  Yes.  But,  regardless  of  the  reason,  for  a  long  time  this  is 
the  fact:  you  have  an  insufficient  number  of  school  places  for 
Protestant  children,  and  not  enough  really  for  Catholic  children. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  The  Protestant  schools  are  provided  for  by 
the  Protestants? 

A.     No,  by  some  sort  of  grant.     I  do  not  know  how.  exactly. 

Q.     Are  the  Catholic  schools  provided  for  in  the  same  way? 


552 

A.  Yes,  but  the  Catholic  schools,  I  imagine,  have  been  more 
largely  supplemented  by  private  subscriptions. 

UNSCHOOLED    CHILDREN   BECOME   CHEAP   MILL 
LABOR 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  May  I  ask  a  question?  Are  the  industries  in 
Belfast  of  a  character  to  employ  a  large  number  of  small  children? 

A.  Yes,  but  they  are  not  even  employed  at  that.  They  are  chil- 
dren running  about  the  streets  doing  odd  jobs. 

Q.     How  old  are  the  children? 

A.     Well,  eight,  nine,  or  up  to  twelve. 

Q.     Would  they  be  permitted  to  work  in  the  mills? 

A.     Not  in  England. 

Q.     In  Ireland? 

A.     As  far  is  I  know,  they  would  not. 

Q.  So  there  is  a  supply  of  child  labor  ready  for  the  mills  from 
this  source? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Are  the  mill  owners  in  Belfast  active  in  politics?  Have  they 
dominated  the  government  of  Belfast? 

A.  Yes,  undoubtedly  the  mill  owners  and  the  leading  Unionists 
have  been  in  control  of  the  government  of  Belfast. 

Q.  Might  not  that  be  the  reason  for  the  failure  to  provide  suffi- 
cient educational  facilities? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  so.  But  the  point  I  wish  to  make  is  that  you 
have  had  for  a  long  number  of  years  a  semi-literate  population 
which  has  been  educated  by  these  paintings  and  political  speeches. 
I  think  that  accounts  for  the  ignorant  population  of  Belfast,  and 
the  ease  with  which  they  can  be  manipulated. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  But  the  same  educational  provisions 
do  not  apply  to  Ireland  as  to  England? 

A.  No.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Educational  Act  of  Scotland 
is  different  from  that  of  England. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Do  not  some  of  these  children  get 
part-time  education? 

A.     I  could  find  no  trace  of  that. 

Q.     No  trace  of  that? 

A.  Yes,  no  trace  of  it.  You  see,  a  tradition  in  education  has 
much  to  do  with  education.  A  certain  section  of  Belfast  does  not 
worry  about  schooling,  and  you  have  an  illiterate  population. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  said  between  two  and  three  thousand 
seats  short? 


553 

A.  Yes,  between  two  and  three  thousand.  This  lady  told  mc 
that  the  accommodations  for  the  scohol  children  were  about  two  to 
three  thousand  places  short. 

SCANDALOUS   WAGES   PAID   WOMEN   AND 
CHILDREN  IN  BELFAST  MILLS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Have  you  during  your  investigations 
found  out  the  average  standard  of  wages  for  child  workers  in  those 
mills? 

A.  The  wages  for  children  in  the  Belfast  mills  we  did  not  go 
into,  but  of  course  notoriously  the  wages  paid  to  women  and  chil- 
dren in  the  mills  of  Belfast  have  been  a  public  scandal.  They 
have  been  very  scandalously  underpaid.  That  has  been  true  for 
years. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Mr.  Maurer,  do  you  not  think  that  we  ought 
to  go  into  that  industrial  question  separately? 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Well,  I  just  thought  that  this  might  be 
connected  up  with  the  school  question — the  supply  of  child  labor. 

POLITICAL     CHANGE     IN     BELFAST     DUE     TO 
LABOR  IMMIGRATION  AND  ORGANIZATION 

The  Witness:  During  the  war  there  was  a  period  of  very,  very 
great  industrial  activity  in  Belfast.  You  had  then  linen  mills  and 
shipyards  working  as  hard  as  they  could  work.  You  had  many 
new  people  coming  into  Belfast  during  the  war  period.  You  had  an 
infiltration  of  people  with  new  ideas.  And  I  think  this  infiltration 
of  people  with  new  ideas  had  very  much  to  do  with  the  change  in 
the  Belfast  situation  at  the  last  election  of  the  city  council.  Aside 
from  that  has  been  the  very  great  activity  among  labor  unions  in 
Belfast.  In  Belfast  the  workers  are  very  well  organized, — unions 
like  the  engineers,  or  the  carpenters  and  joiners,  or  the  big  unskilled 
workers'  union,  or  the  electrical  workers'  union, — bodies  having 
their  headquarters  in  England,  although  the  local  bodies  are  in 
Belfast.  Well,  you  had  a  tremendous  growth  of  trade  unionism 
in  Belfast.  And  in  the  spring  of  1919  there  was  a  strike  carried 
through  in  Belfast  for  a  forty-four-hour  week;  and  in  that  strike 
the  Roman  Catholics  and  the  Protestant  Unionists  and  the  Nation- 
alists stood  side  by  side.  The  unions  for  the  first  time  were  able 
to  get  united  action  between  the  workers  of  Belfast.  That  in  my 
mind  is  an  important  factor — the  very  great  growth  of  trade  unions 
and  labor  feeling,  as  evidenced  in  the  elections. 


554 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Will  you  repeat  the  date  of  this  suc- 
cessful strike? 

A.  March,  1919.  I  don't  know  whether  the  strike  was  successful 
or  not.  The  success  that  I  am  emphasizing  is  that  you  got  all  the 
workers  to  come  out  together  and  fight  together  in  this  one  big 
strike.  As  to  what  the  result  of  the  strike  was  I  did  not  take  the 
trouble  to  ascertain. 

GROWTH  OF  NATIONAL  FEELING  IN  ULSTER 

And  then,  as  well  as  that,  there  was  a  great  growth  of  national 
feeling.  The  Unionist  began  to  feel  himself  an  Irishman  before 
he  was  an  Unionist;  and  he  was  very  nearly  as  critical  of  the  Eng- 
lish Government  as  the  Nationalist, — for  different  reasons  he  was 
extremely  critical  of  the  English  Government. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  Belfast  put  under  martial  law  at  the  time 
of  that  strike,  do  you  remember? 

A.     Not  as  far  as  I  know.     I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  When  you  say  Unionist  in  this  case  it 
is  referring  to  the  labor  organizations? 

A.  No,  I  mean  Unionists  in  politics.  Perhaps  Orangemen  would 
be  better.  The  Orangeman  was  as  critical  of  the  English  Govern- 
ment as  was  the  Nationalist;  and  the  Orangeman  was  beginning  to 
realize  that  he  was  an  Irishman  as  well  as  the  Nationalist. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  want  to  elaborate  that? 

A.  I  cannot  elaborate  it  beyond  saying  that  it  was  an  opinion 
expressed  to  me  by  a  great  many  prominent  people  in  Belfast.  But 
I  want  to  say  that  the  political  change  in  the  position  of  Sir  Edward 
Carson  and  the  support  of  Carson  to  the  Home  Rule  Bill  has  been 
influenced  by  the  forces  of  which  I  spoke. 

Q.  What  changed  the  attitude  of  the  Unionists  and  the  Ulsterites 
toward  the  British  Government? 

A.  Well,  the  feeling  that  they  are  Irishmen.  They  did  not  ap- 
prove of  the  suppression  in  Ireland. 

Q.     They  too  are  protesting  against  that? 

GROWTH  OF  TRADE  UNIONISM  THREATENS  HOLD 
OF  CARSONISM  ON  ULSTER 

A.  To  a  certain  extent;  although  I  do  not  want  to  minimize  the 
feeling  that  exists  between  Unionist  and  Nationalist.  But  to  a  great 
extent  labor  policy  is  acting  as  a  solvent  for  that  extreme  bitterness 
and  hatred. 

The  growth  of  a  feeling  of  nationalism  in  Ireland  is  perhaps  best 


555 

indicated  by  the  local  elections  of  1920,  which  left  only  four  coun- 
ties in  northeast  Ulster  with  a  Unionist  majority. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Out  of  how  many? 

A.  Nine.  And  you  know  that  in  the  Home  Rule  Bill  before 
Parliament  at  the  present  time  that  a  separate  Parliament  is  to 
function  for  four  counties  of  Ulster  instead  of  six  counties  com- 
prising the  Unionist  stronghold.  To  these  Unionist  counties  Fer- 
managh and  Tyrone  have  been  added  by  the  bargaining  of  Sir 
Edward  Carson,  although  they  are  not  Unionist  counties.  They 
are  Nationalist  counties  with  farmer  constituencies.  These  six  coun- 
ties are  coming  under  the  Ulster  Parliament  because,  in  my  opinion, 
there  is  a  very  real  danger  that  when  that  Ulster  Parliament  is  set 
up,  you  will  have  a  majority  of  the  Labor  Party  in  the  Ulster 
Parliament.  Fermanagh  and  Tyrone  have  been  included  to  be  sure 
you  will  have  an  Ulster  Parliament  which  Labor  cannot  control. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  Those  two  counties  are  not  Unionist? 

A.  No.  Politically  they  are  Nationalist,  but  economically  they 
are  capitalist  and  not  labor,  because  of  their  agricultural  holdings. 
And  when  the  division  comes  between  capital  and  labor,  Tyrone 
and  Fermanagh  can  be  depended  upon  for  some  time  to  support 
the  capital  side  rather  than  the  labor  side.  When  this  Home  Rule 
Bill  was  being  discussed  in  the  House  of  Commons,  Sir  Edward 
Carson  insisted  that  this  Parliament  should  have  no  power  to  make 
a  levy  on  capital — on  capital  wealth — and  that  point  was  insisted 
upon  by  Sir  Edward  Carson. 

The  point  I  wish  to  make  is  that  Carsonism  and  UJnionism  are 
becoming  the  stronghold  of  capitalism  and  aristocratic  feeling;  but 
their  hold  is  being  threatened  by  the  growth  of  trade  unionism. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Let  us  be  careful  that  the  record  does  not 
get  trade  unionism  confused  with  political  Unionism. 

BASIS  OF  BELFAST  SHIPYARD  RIOTS  NOT 
RELIGIOUS  BUT  POLITICAL 

The  Witness:  As  a  result  of  these  twenty-five  people  being  re- 
turned to  the  Belfast  City  Council  who  were  not  Orangemen,  open 
threats  of  retaliation  were  made  by  the  Orange  leaders.  That  was 
in  June.  And  then  July  twelfth  came,  which  is  the  anniversary  of 
William  Hi's  crossing  of  the  Boyne,  and  very  often  you  have  riots 
at  that  time.  Citizens  of  Belfast  told  me  that  they  looked  forward 
with  sickening  apprehension  of  what  might  happen  at  that  time, 
because  of  the  great  tension  of  this  local  election.  But  when  July 
twelfth  came,  there  was  no  trouble,  no  riots  at  all.     But  on  July 


556 

twenty-first  riots  occurred  in  the  great  shipyards  of  Belfast.  The 
shipyards,  as  you  know,  stand  on  an  island  and  are  separated  from 
the  mainland  by  a  channel  two  hundred  feet  wide.  On  July  twenty- 
first  inflammatory  speeches  were  made  by  speakers  at  the  gates  of 
the  shipyards,  and  immediately  after  that  the  Orange  workers 
turned  upon  their  Nationalist  fellow-workers  and  expelled  some- 
thing like  four  thousand  of  them  from  the  yards.  Some  of  the  men 
tried  to  swim  the  channel,  but  were  met  by  stones  on  the  other  side 
so  that  they  could  not  land,  and  had  to  come  back.  Some  of  them 
spent  hours  in  the  water.  Some  of  them,  of  course,  were  killed. 
This  strike  spread  to  the  linen  mills,  where  the  Orange  workers  also 
expelled  their  Nationalist  fellow-workers.  This  went  on  until,  when 
I  was  in  Belfast  in  October,  more  than  twenty  thousand  expelled 
workers  and  their  families  were  living  on  relief.  That  is,  for  more 
than  four  months  they  had  been  refused  the  elemental  right  to  earn 
a  living  because  of  their  political  views. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  these  expulsions  limited  to  Sinn  Feiners 
and  Nationalists? 

A.     So  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  I  note  by  the  report,  page  two,  that  the  expelled  workers 
were  either  Nationalists,  or  those  with  Labor,  Socialist,  or  Sinn  Fein 
sympathies,  whether  Catholic  or  Protestant,  as  well  as  those  expelled 
on  religious  grounds. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  strictly  accurate. 

Q.  That  would  seem  to  indicate,  would  it  not,  that  this  was  not 
a  matter  strictly  of  politics,  but  is  rather  a  matter  of  industrial 
purposes? 

A.  Yes,  that  is  so.  We  have  been  asked  in  Great  Britain  to 
regard  those  riots  in  Belfast,  when  they  have  occurred,  as  an  ex- 
pression of  religious  and  sectarian  bitterness.  Our  people  have 
read  reports  in  their  newspapers  that  the  Protestants  have  expelled 
the  Roman  Catholics.  The  point  I  wish  to  make  is  that,  although 
those  riots  are  no  new  thing  in  Belfast,  they  were  this  time 
much  more  political  than  ever  before.  People  were  not  expelled 
because  they  were  Roman  Catholics.  They  were  expelled  because 
they  were  Nationalists  or  Labor  or  Socialists  in  their  point  of  view. 
The  point  should  not  be  overlooked  that  more  and  more  the  Orange 
employee  is  becoming  a  supporter  of  capitalism  as  against  the 
classes  of  labor. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Behind  this  outbreak,  what  were  the  forces? 

A.     The  Unionist  and  Orange  headquarters  in  Belfast. 

Q.     So  that  it  was  entirely  supported  by  political  organizations? 

A.     Yes,  in  my  opinion. 


557 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  People  were  killed  in  those  riots, 
were  they  not? 

A.  Yes.  And  then  that  night,  on  July  twenty-first,  there  were 
more  riots.  In  Belfast  you  have  had  the  custom  of  Protestants 
living  in  certain  parts  of  the  town  and  Catholics  living  in  other 
parts  of  the  town.  During  the  six  years  of  the  war  that  custom  had 
been  broken  down,  because  of  the  incoming  of  so  many  new  work- 
ers, and  the  people  were  much  more  mixed  up.  That  night  the 
women  in  one  of  these  quarters  heard  about  the  riots  that  had 
occurred  in  the  shipyards,  and  the  rumor  reached  them  that  two 
hundred  men  had  been  drowned  in  the  channel.  The  women  armed 
themselves  with  stones, — the  side  streets  in  Belfast  are  paved  with 
cobble  stones.  These  women  armed  themselves  with  cobbles  and 
waited  for  the  men  coming  back  from  work.  They  stoned  the  tram 
cars  continuously,  and  many  of  the  men  were  injured.  And  riots 
of  this  kind  between  Orangemen  and  Nationalists,  between  Catholics 
and  Protestants,  have  sporadically  occurred  ever  since  July  twenty- 
first  in  Belfast. 

POLITICAL    AND    RELIGIOUS    DIFFERENCES 

ENCOURAGED  BY  EMPLOYERS  TO  BREAK 

LABOR  SOLIDARITY 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  said  that  during  the  war  labor 
was  well  organized  in  Belfast? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  they  still  well  organized? 

A.  Well,  you  see,  this  is  the  most  extraordinary  condition  you 
have  in  Belfast, — the  most  extraordinary  situation  I  know  of.  You 
had  carpenters  and  joiners  working  side  by  side,  some  Nationalist 
and  some  Unionist,  who  were  members  of  the  same  labor  union. 
And  then  you  had  members  of  the  same  union  expelling  other 
fellow-workmen  and  denying  them  the  right  of  earning  a  livelihood, 
which  of  course  is  an  elemental  right. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  On  political  or  religious  grounds? 

A.     Both. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Was  not  the  feeling  that  some  of 
them  were  going  to  lose  their  jobs  at  the  back  of  it? 

A.     Probably,  but  it  was  not  a  dominant  factor. 

Q.  If  employment  had  continued  as  it  was  during  the  war,  would 
there  have  been  any  riots? 

A.  I  asked  that,  and  I  was  assured  that  the  shipyards  were  still 
very  busy  making  up  for  the  ravages  of  the  submarines.     I  asked 


558 

that,   and   I    was   told   that   there   was   no   great   unemployment    in 
Belfast. 

Q.  But  you  would  think  that  the  employers  would  not  want 
such  a  situation. 

A.  Yes,  but  the  excess  profits  tax  entered  in.  Their  profits  were 
being  taken  from  them. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  British  imperialism  is  just  like  every 
other  imperialism  the  world  over.  They  don't  want  to  pay  the 
expenses  of  the  wars  caused  by  their  own  system. 
t  Q.  Senator  Walsh:  There  is  an  opinion  in  America  that  when 
the  capitalistic  members  of  a  party  see  movements  in  that  party 
tending  to  weaken  their  strength  and  influence,  they  raise  financial, 
racial  or  religious  issues  that  divert  the  mind  of  the  voters, — the 
forward-looking  Voters  of  the  laboring  class, — and  put  them  back 
into  their  own  political  organization  by  the  cry  of  race  or  religion. 
That  seems  to  be  true  elsewhere  too. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  I  have  been  wondering  if  this  employing  class  were  not 
endeavoring  to  maintain  their  power  by  reviving  feeling  that  was 
dying  down. 

A.     Yes,  I  think  that  is  true. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  you  get  any  first-hand  evidence 
of  that? 

A.  Well,  I  heard  it  expressed.  The  only  evidence  I  have  is  that 
I  heard  that  expression  by  a  great  many  people  in  Belfast,  people 
for  whose  judgment  I  have  great  respect. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  get  any  information  from 
employers  that  there  is  a  danger  that  they  were  raising  something 
they  would  not  be  able  to  handle  later  on? 

A.  No.  But  there  is  this:  that  in  some  of  the  shipyards  there 
have  been  established  by  the  Orange  workers  what  are  known  as 
Vigilance  Committees.  Those  Vigilance  Committees  meet  on  the 
firm's  time.  They  meet  in  rooms  provided  by  the  firm.  And  they 
discuss  on  what  grounds  a  workman  may  be  allowed  to  earn  a 
living.  They  ask  a  workman  to  produce  his  baptismal  certificate, 
or  the  baptismal  certificate  of  his  children  or  wife,  for  that  matter, 
so  that  he  must  be  beyond  suspicion.  If  the  employers  are  willing 
to  provide  the  time  and  accommodations  for  these  workmen  to 
make  these  investigations,  it  shows  a  great  deal  of  sympathy  behind 
them  from  the  employers. 


559 

SIR  EDWARD  CARSON'S  ECONOMIC  INTERESTS  IN 
BELFAST 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask  what  Sir  Edward  Carson 
was  doing  during  all  this  in  Ireland? 

A.     He  was  very  comfortable  in  England. 

Q.     Did  he  say  anything  about  it? 

A.     No,  he  didn't  wish  to  have  anything  to  say. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  What  are  his  connections? 

A.  He  is  very  closely  associated  with  the  aristecratic  section  of 
England,  and  his  interests  are  with  that  class. 

Q.     He  is  a  barrister,  is  he  not? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  He  has  been  the  attorney  for  the  large  corpora- 
tion interests  in  Belfast,  has  he  not? 

A.     Yes,  I  understand  so. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  his  Solemn  League  and  Cove- 
nant, as  such,  figure  in  these  riots? 

A.     No,  not  as  such. 

Q.  How  far  has  his  interest  in  Protestants  as  such  made  him 
reconcile  himself  as  to  the  fate  of  the  Protestants  in  the  rest  of 
Ireland? 

A.  So  far  as  I  know,  he  is  not  interested  in  them  and  has  taken 
no  part  in  their  fate. 

Q.  So  far  as  Protestants  in  the  rest  of  Ireland  are  concerned,  he 
is  not  interested? 

A.  Yes.  Miss  Wilkinson  has  evidence  that  the  Protestants  in 
other  sections  of  Ireland  are  not  at  all  persecuted. 

DIFFICULT  POSITION  OF  BELFAST  LABOR 
UNIONS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  spoke  about  the  committees  in 
the  mills,  in  the  textile  mills. 

A.     Yes,  and  in  the  shipyards. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  labor  unions  still  exist  in  these 
places? 

A.  The  labor  unions  are  in  a  very,  very  difficult  position.  They 
still  exist,  and  the  national  headquarters  are  very  much  concerned 
with  the  situation.  The  Carpenters'  and  Joiners'  Union,  which  is 
one  of  our  very  old  and  very  well-organized  trade  unions,  has  been 
particularly  active  in  this  matter.  When  the  expulsions  took  place, 
the  national  executive  came  over  and  had  a  sitting  in  Belfast.  They 
called  a  meeting  of  the  whole  trade  in  Belfast.     The  carpenters  and 


560 

joiners,  of  course,  are  a  very  important  part  of  shipbuilding,  and 
have  a  large  number  of  well-paid  workers.  They  called  a  meeting 
and  engaged  a  hall  to  consider  the  situation.  And  the  meeting  was 
prohibited  by  the  competent  military  authorities.  The  meeting  was 
prohibited  and  could  not  be  held.  They  again  tried  to  hold  a  meet- 
ing and  failed.  And  now  they  have  taken  a  ballot.  They  said  that 
if  some  of  the  members  were  to  be  expelled  all  must  be  called  out. 
Those  who  remained  at  work  are  now  regarded  as  scabs  and  black- 
legs, and  are  not*  entitled  to  further  union  work.  That  is  how  they 
have  dealt  with  the  situation.  I  don't  think  there  is  anyone  more 
unhappy  in  Belfast  than  the  average  trade  union  official.  He  is  in 
a  very  difficult  situation. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  I  want  to  ask  about  this  report  on  the  desk. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  It  was  signed  by  these  officials  of  your  organization,  includ- 
ing yourself? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  This  is  the  report  that  the  committee  that  went  over  to  Ireland 
made  to  this  organization  in  London? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  this  is  the  result  of  this  investigation  in  Ireland  by  the 
Women's  International  League? 

A.     Yes. 

Senator  Norris:  I  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  it  ought  to  be  read  or 
printed  as  part  of  this  testimony. 

Chairman  Howe:  Some  of  it  will  be  read. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  move  that  it  be  printed  at  the  end  of  the  testi- 
mony of  both  these  ladies. 

Senator  Norris:  This  ought  to  be  printed,  because  it  is  probably 
as  concise  a  report  of  this  investigation  as  the  ladies  could  give  here. 
A  great  many  will  probably  read  that.1 

BELFAST    UNIONIST    LEADERS    SPURN    REST    OF 

IRELAND  BECAUSE  OF  CITY'S 

ALLEGED  SUPERIORITY 

The  Witness:  I  think  I  ought  to  say  that  also  in  Belfast  we  inter- 
viewed several  Orange  leaders  and  tried  to  ascertain  their  point  of 
view,  why  this  sectarian  bitterness  had  been  continued  so  long,  and 
why  we  could  not  achieve  peace  between  the  different  sections.  I 
am  a  Scotch  woman,  of  course,  and  we  have  certain  parts  of  Scot- 


1  The  report  referred  to  was   duly  incorporated   in   the  evidence.     See 
page  621  hereof. 


561 

land  where  the  Reformation  never  reached.  We  still  have  Roman 
Catholic  sections  up  in  the  remoter  parts  of  Scotland  where  there 
has  been  Catholicism  ever  since  Christianity  came  to  Scotland.  I 
never  in  my  life  heard  of  any  bitterness  between  these  sections, — 
even  in  Scotland,  where  we  take  our  religion  very  seriously. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:  You  yourself  are  a  Presbyterian,  be- 
ing Scotch? 

A.  Yes.  The  other  lady  with  me  was  also  a  Scotch  Presbyterian. 
I  do  not  think  any  of  our  Commission  was  Catholic.  We  had  a 
member  from  the  Society  of  Friends,  but  as  far  as  I  know,  we  had 
no  Catholic  on  the  Commission.  And  I  asked  one  of  these  Orange 
leaders  to  state  in  a  few  sentences  what  he  considered  the  Orange 
position  was.  And  very  briefly  it  was  this:  that  Belfast  was  the 
largest  city  in  Ireland.  (It  was  the  largest  city  in  the  world,  ac- 
cording to  some.)  It  was  the  largest  city  in  Ireland;  it  had  the 
largest  shipyards;  the  largest  distilleries  and  factories,  and  various 
things  of  that  kind, — it  was  a  very  important  and  very  large  city. 
And  the  next  thing  they  always  said  was  that  it  had  the  lowest  rates, 
ten  shillings  to  the  pound,  compared  with  sixteen  shillings  in  Dub- 
lin, and  I  am  not  sure  about  Cork.  And  that,  of  course,  was  because 
Belfast  was  a  city  of  successful  business  men.  They  felt  that  the 
people  of  Dublin  had  no  business  capacity;  and  if  the  country  was 
to  be  governed  from  Dublin,  the  country  would  be  ruined  within 
five  years.  I  tried  to  point  out  that  I  have  been  very  much  inter- 
ested in  the  tuberculosis  problem;  I  was  interested  in  education  and 
in  the  wages  of  women,  and  so  forth;  and  that  I  have  always  heard 
that  you  have  a  very  high  rate  of  death  from  tuberculosis  in  Belfast, 
— I  think  it  is  the  highest  in  the  British  Isles, — and  a  very  high 
rate  of  infant  mortality,  and  very  low  wages  to  women ;  and  that  I 
thought  it  would  be  better  to  raise  the  rates  and  get  rid  of  these 
things.  Yet  the  fact  remains  that  the  average  Orangeman  thinks 
that  Belfast  is  a  very  prosperous  city,  and  that  its  rates  are  low, 
and  for  this  reason  they  will  not  be  joined  with  the  rest  of  Ireland. 
And  then  one  later  proceeded  to  say  that  they  would  wade  knee- 
deep  in  blood  before  they  would  be  associated  with  the  rest  of 
Ireland.  Orangeism  in  Belfast  is  becoming  more  and  more  asso- 
ciated with  capitalism,  with  the  money  interests,  with  the  big  em- 
ploying class. 

Q.  Senator  Norris :  When  you  say  the  rates  are  low,  what  do 
you  mean? 

A.  The  rates  are  local  taxes, — taxes  on  rentals.  I  think  our 
rates  in  Manchester  are  nineteen  shillings  on  the  pound.  In  Belfast 
thev  are  onlv  ten  shillings. 


562 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  That  means  that  you  must  pay  ten 
shillings  on  every  pound  of  rent  you  pay? 

A.  No,  no,  no.  Perhaps  I  ought  to  say  ratable  value.  If  my 
house  was  rated  at  twenty  pounds,  I  would  pay  ten  pounds  to  the 
city  in  Belfast. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  inhabitant  pays  rent  to  the  landlord  and 
rates  to  the  city.  It  depends  upon  what  his  house  is  rated  as  to 
how  much  he  pays  the  city  in  taxation? 

A.     Yes,  quite. 

OPPOSITION  TO  UNION  WITH  REST  OF  IRELAND 
SPRINGS  FROM  CAPITALIST  CLASS 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  these  Orange  leaders  also  bring  out 
that  they  were  afraid  of  religious  domination  by  the  rest  of  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  of  course.  But  I  was  surprised  to  find  that  it  was  much 
more  an  economic  question  than  the  question  of  religious  domina- 
tion, when  you  talked  to  them  in  private. 

Q.     Who  were  these  Orange  leaders  you  talked  with? 

A.  I  have  their  names  in  case  I  was  asked.  Several  of  them 
were  city  councillors  representing  the  Orangemen  on  the  city 
council. 

Q.     In  private  life  were  they  employers? 

A.  Yes.  One  man  I  was  asked  to  eat  with  was  a  brother  of  one 
of  the  leading  lawyers  of  Belfast,  and  also  president — voluntary 
president  of  one  of  the  cooperative  societies.  That  was  one  of  the 
business  men. 

Q.  You  raised  the  point  that  you  are  of  the  opinion  that  the 
opposition  was  largely  among  the  capitalistic  class. 

A.     Yes,  largely. 

Q.  What  I  wanted  to  get  at  was  the  information  on  which  you 
base  that. 

A.  Well,  very  largely  the  size  of  the  rates.  The  lowness  of  the 
rates  and  the  size  of  the  rates  are  what  occupy  the  big  business  men 
rather  than  a  person  who  does  not  have  very  much  money.  The  cry 
in  our  country,  "Keep  down  the  rates,"  is  the  cry  of  the  very  con- 
servative business  man.  I  do  not  suppose  it  is  confined  to  our 
country. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  HOMES  MAKES  OVERCROWDED 
HOUSING  CONDITIONS  IN  BELFAST 

In  Belfast,  again,  there  has  been  a  very  great  deal  of  destruction 
of  homes  in  these  raids.     A  very  great  part  of  the  city  has  been 


563 

destroyed,  or  else  burned  out.  You  have  public  houses  looted  and 
burned,  and  shops  looted  and  burned.  You  have  had  a  very  great 
deal  more  destruction  of  property  in  Belfast, — mostly  these  work- 
ingmen's  homes, — than  I  had  thought  of.  The  result  was  that  you 
had  two  or  three  families  crowd  into  one  house.  Housing  condi- 
tions were  very  bad  in  Belfast  before.  The  overcrowding  that  has 
been  caused  by  this  destruction  of  property  has  caused  a  very  seri- 
ous situation  indeed.  And  then  into  Belfast  have  gone  the  refugees 
from  Lisburn. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Would  this  overcrowding  in  Belfast  be 
confined  to  one  quarter,  or  would  it  be  general? 

A.  No,  to  a  great  extent  it  would  be  in  the  Nationalist  quarters, 
since  the  houses  were  destroyed  there. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:   Who  participated  in   those  riots? 

A.     They  were  participated  in  very  largely  by  the  people. 

PARTIZAN  ADMINISTRATION  OF  LAW  AND  ORDER 
IN  BELFAST 

Q.     Were  there  police  there  also? 

A.  Yes.  You  see,  in  Belfast  after  the  hours  of  curfew  the  city 
is  entirely  in  the  hands  of  the  military  and  the  police.  The  Orange 
workmen  were  heavily  armed  in  1914,  and  those  arms  have  never 
been  confiscated.  A  certain  proportion  of  the  Orange  workmen  go 
heavily  armed  to  work,  carrying  their  revolvers,  which  can  be 
plainly  seen  through  the  dungaree  suits  that  they  use.  We  were 
rather  surprised  because  the  workmen  had  those  arms,  and  I  asked 
them  why  they  carried  them;  and  they  said  it  was  to  protect  them- 
selves against  the  Nationalists.  Then  at  night,  after  darkness  comes, 
the  soldiers  and  police  go  to  the  Nationalist  quarters  searching  for 
arms.  They  do  not  go  to  the  Orange  quarters.  I  have  not  found 
one  instance  of  their  going  to  search  Orange  houses.  They  go  in 
the  darkness,  of  course.  And  it  is  said, — and  I  think  quite  likely, 
because  it  is  dark  and  they  are  very  often  partly  drunk, — that  very 
horrible  things  occur. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  So  the  destruction  is  more  confined  to 
these  Nationalist  or  Catholic  quarters? 

A.  Almost  entirely.  I  spent  a  whole  week  walking  around  Bel- 
fast trying  to  find  that  out.  Only  where  the  quarters  joined  each 
other  would  there  be  some  overlapping. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  That  is  the  custom  for  them  to  be 
segregated,  is  it? 

A.     Yes. 


564 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  say  some  very  violent  things  have 
happened? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  what  I  heard. 

Q.     And  impropriety  against  women? 

A.  No.  I  made  a  special  point  to  ask  about  that,  and  I  did  not 
hear  of  one  single  instance  about  that. 

Q.     Can  you  dilate  upon  that  a  little? 

A.  I  would  rather  not.  You  see,  I  didn't  see  any  of  that  myself. 
And  although  I  was  convinced  of  the  truth  of  many  of  the  brutali- 
ties reported  to  me,  I  do  not  see  that  it  would  serve  any  good 
purpose  to  relate  them  to  this  Commission. 

Q.  Are  you  convinced  that  soldiers  and  police  armed  by  the 
authority  of  the  government  have  committed  brutalities  against 
innocent  women  and  children? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  quite.  These  houses  were  burned,  you  see,  and 
women  very  sick  and  very  ill  and  children  were  turned  out  on  a 
moment's  notice;  women  in  bed  connected  with  childbirth,  and 
things  of  that  kind.  Some  horrible  things  have  occurred, — perfectly 
dreadful. 

SURPRISING  GROWTH  OF  SINN  FEIN  MOVEMENT 
AMONG  BELFAST  PROTESTANTS 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Mrs.  Robinson,  did  you  find  any  evi- 
dence of  personal  friendships  breaking  over  these  barriers  and  these 
prejudices? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  quite,  quite.  Protestants  and  Catholics  who  are 
Nationalists  and  Sinn  Feiners  are  quite  friendly.  And  there  is  a 
very  strong  Sinn  Fein  movement  in  Belfast. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Among  Protestants? 

A.  Yes,  Protestants  and  Catholics  work  together  in  the  Sinn 
Fein  movement. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  The  Sinn  Fein  movement  in  Belfast  is 
working  underground? 

A.  Yes,  underground  entirely.  I  do  not  understand  how  it  is 
so  successfully  done. 

Q.  It  has  reached  up  among  the  business  and  professional 
classes? 

A.     Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  say  that  is  one  of  the  things  that  sur- 
prised you? 

A.  Yes,  I  do  not  understand  how  it  has  been  done.  It  is  impos- 
sible to  quote  any  figures,  but  I  was  surprised  at  the  extent  it  had 
been  done. 


565 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Is  it  quite  general  among  the 
Protestant  workers? 

A.  I  would  not  say  quite  general.  One  cannot  say,  because  no 
one  in  Belfast  goes  around  advertising  the  fact  that  he  is  a  Sinn 
Feiner. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  find  any  evidence,  I  meant, 
of  very  real  friendship  between  Catholics  and  Protestants,  and 
where  they  protected  each  other? 

A.  Yes,  yes.  There  are  very  beautiful  instances  of  the  protec- 
tion of  each  other  by  reason  of  their  personal  friendships. 

BAD  CONDITIONS  AMONG  WOMEN  MILL  WORKERS 
AND  IN  HOUSING 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  spoke  of  the  conditions  of 
women  workers  in  Belfast.     What  were  they? 

A.  Yes,  there  were  very  dreadful  conditions  among  women  em- 
ployees of  the  linen  mills;  and  also  in  the  housing  conditions  in 
Belfast. 

Q.  I  think  it  would  be  well  for  you  to  describe  what  sort  of 
housing  conditions  you  found. 

A.  There  are  two  and  four  rooms.  A  very  common  type  is 
what  is  called  the  kitchen  type,  with  two  rooms  in  front  and  a 
couple  of  rooms  up  on  back;  and  very  large  families  sleep  in  these 
rooms.  The  kitchen  house  is  a  very  normal  type  of  working-class 
house  in  Belfast, — two  up  and  two  down. 

Q.     Did  many  of  them  sleep  in  the  cellar? 

A.     Perhaps.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  these  houses  generally  owned  by  the  mill  owners? 

A.  Not  as  far  as  I  know.  I  do  not  know.  There  was  no  control 
by  the  mill  owner;  but  the  connection  between  the  house  and  mill 
was  not  very  close, — not  like  you  would  find  in  the  mining  districts, 
for  example,  where  the  mine  company  owns  the  houses,  you  see. 

BOY  SOLDIERS  IN   IRELAND   NERVOUS  AND 
HYSTERICAL 

I  should  like  at  this  point  to  say  that  we  were  all  very  much 
impressed  by  the  youth  and  inexperience  of  the  soldiers  in  Belfast. 
Actually  boys, — boys  of  seventeen  and  eighteen.  None  of  them 
looked  like  men. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Where  were  they  from? 

A.  From  London,  in  England.  These  boys,  these  boy  soldiers, 
I  think,  are  the  most  pitiable  figures  in  Ireland  at  this  time. 


566 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Why? 

A.  Well,  they  are  boys.  They  have  been  brought  straight  from 
home,  and  with  no  knowledge  of  life.  They  are  under  military 
discipline,  and  believe  they  are  in  the  midst  of  a  hostile  population. 
Many  of  them  are  absolutely  nervous  and  hysterical. 

Q.     Has  the  drinking  habit  become  very  common  among  them? 

A.     Well,  there  is  nothing  else  for  them  to  do. 

Q.  Did  you  find  in  Belfast,  as  the  testimony  shows  in  other 
parts  of  Ireland,  that  there  was  an  open  bar  in  the  barracks  in 
Belfast? 

A.  I  should  imagine  that  that  was  quite  true,  but  I  was  not  in 
the  barracks. 

Q.  The  testimony  shows  here  that  the  R.  I.  C.  in  the  large  cities 
have  an  open  canteen  in  their  barracks. 

A.  Yes,  everybody  says  so.  It  is  the  accepted  thing,  I  believe, 
but  I  did  not  go  into  that.  I  must  say  that,  as  a  woman  with  chil- 
dren of  my  own,  it  is  a  very  great  crime  to  begin  boys  in  life  like 
that. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Have  they  been  recruited  for  that  purpose? 

A.  Yes,  I  think  that  in  a  majority  of  cases  they  are  boys  who 
have  had  a  difficulty  in  finding  a  job,  and  have  gone  into  the  army 
as  a  result  of  the  inducements  of  recruiting. 

RELIEF  BADLY  NEEDED  BY  EXPELLED  WORKERS 
OF  BELFAST 

Q.     Who  administers  the  relief  in  Belfast? 

A.  The  relief  is  administered  by  what  is  called  the  Expelled 
Workers'  Committee.  I  have  distributed  some  sheets  on  that  point. 
They  have  collected  money  all  over  Britain.  An  enormous  amount 
of  money  has  been  contributed  over  Britain.  The  representatives 
of  those  committees  have  visited  a  good  many  of  our  trades  coun- 
cils in  Britain  and  laid  the  position  of  these  workmen  who  are  not 
allowed  to  work  before  their  fellow  trades  unionists.  And  very 
large  contributions  have  come  in  this  way. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  These  contributions  have  come  very  largely 
from  working  people,  the  union  people? 

A.  Yes,  almost  entirely.  I  imagine  some  of  it  may  have  come 
from  America.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  tells  us  relief  is  needed  in 
other  parts  of  Ireland  as  well  as  the  north. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:  Who  administers  this  relief? 

A.  The  Expelled  Workers'  Committee.  They  have  a  very  mar- 
velous system  of  bookkeeping,  and  it  is  very  well  done;  very  well 
done  indeed. 


567 

Q,  Would  these  be  Catholics  or  Protestants  administering  this 
relief? 

A.  Both.  Both.  This  report  is  signed  by  a  Roman  Catholic 
archbishop.  Bayer  is  a  Protestant.  There  were  both  Protestants 
and  Catholics  on  the  administration,  and  both  Catholics  and  Protes- 
tants are  receiving  relief. 

Q.     Commissioner   Addams:  Both  are  in  need  of  relief? 

A.  Yes.  A  large  number  of  Protestants  are,  because  they  were 
Nationalists  or  Sinn  Feiners.  They  were  expelled,  you  see,  on 
account  of  political  belief. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Do  you  know  whether  they  have  col- 
lected sufficient  funds  to  do  for  the  present  winter? 

A.  No,  no.  Relief  is  still  badly  needed.  The  need  is  very  great. 
I  don't  think  I  have  anything  further  to  add  about  Belfast.  I 
should  be  glad  to  answer  any  questions. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Has  not  this  situation  that  you  have  described 
in  Belfast  had  a  tendency  to  even  further  extend  the  Sinn  Fein  influ- 
ence, even  further  than  it  was? 

A.     Undoubtedly.      Undoubtedly. 

Q.  So  that  sober-minded  people  have  had  their  minds  turned  to 
studying  this  movement  and  have  become  Sinn  Fein  as  a  result? 

A.     Quite,  quite.     Undoubtedly. 

Q.  And  I  suppose  that  is  true  in  England  even.  The  English 
people  have  begun  to  look  more  closely  into  the  political  causes, 
and  have  come  to  have  more  sympathy  with  the  underlying  princi- 
ples of  the  Sinn  Fein  movement. 

A.  Quite.  Quite.  But,  as  I  said  before,  public  opinion  in  Eng- 
land is  only  waking  up. 

ATTITUDE  OF   PROTESTANT   CLERGYMEN   IN 
BELFAST 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask  if  you  had  any  conver- 
sation with  Protestant  clergymen  in  Belfast? 

A.     Yes,  I  did.     I  also  went  to  church  and  heard  their  sermons. 

Q.     From  the  gospel? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  May  I  ask  if  the  Protestant  churches  have  taken  any  action 
on  this  matter  in  Ulster? 

A.  No.  Not  as  far  as  I  know.  Of  course,  it  is  true  that  some 
of  the  Protestant  clergymen  in  Belfast  have  tried  very  hard  to  exert 
a  moderating  influence.  It  is  not  fair  to  classify  them  all  as  in 
sympathy  with  what  has  happened  there. 


568 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  is  what  I  thought.  When  you 
were  there  did  you  hear  of  an  Ulster  delegation  made  up  of  Protes- 
tant clergymen  which  came  to  this  country? 

A.     No.     I  heard  since  that  it  was  here. 

Senator  Walsh:  It  was  here  and  has  gone  back  last  summer. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  It  has  returned  now  to  Belfast. 

The  Witness:  Yes.  I  think  it  is  only  fair  to  state  that  many  of 
the  Protestant  clergymen  regret  very  much  what  has  happened.  It 
is  a  result  of  the  past,  is  it  not,  as  well  as  the  present? 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Has  there  been  any  action,  as  far  as 
you  know,  to  condemn  what  has  happened? 

A.     Not  as  far  as  I  know. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Did  they  stimulate  it  in  any  way? 

A.  Well,  I  should  imagine  that  the  tendency  was  in  that  direc- 
tion. You  have  a  narrow  Protestantism  there  that  reminds  you  of 
the  age  of  the  Covenanters, — of  a  stage  that  the  rest  of  Britain  has 
grown  out  of. 

POORER  REPUBLICAN  WORKERS  FORCED  TO  LIVE 
IN  GHETTO 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  This  report  says  that  the  Republicans  in  Belfast 
are  compelled  to  live  in  a  ghetto  as  strict  as  that  in  any  of  the 
European  cities. 

A.     Yes,  that  is  absolutely  accurate. 

Q.  They  have  been  herded  from  where  they  lived  into  this  ghetto 
section? 

A.     Yes,  and  that  is  where  the  overcrowding  is  most  hideous. 

Q.     And  is  that  true  of  all  classes? 

A.  No,  it  is  only  true  of  the  workers.  It  is  not  true  even  of  the 
better  off  workers  or  the  professional  classes. 

Q.  If  you  have  a  sufficient  amount  of  wealth  you  will  not  be 
herded  with  the  workers  in  these  ghettos? 

A.  Quite.  But  of  course  you  must  act  extraordinarily  careful 
in  what  you  do  and  say,  or  you  might  be. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas :  May  I  refer  again  to  this  question : 
Has  there  been  any  movement  in  England,  particularly  in  the 
Anglican  Church  or  the  Nonconformist  churches,  against  these 
atrocities? 

A.  No.  Of  course  individual  members  have  gravely  protested 
against  it.  But  I  know  of  no  expression  of  opinion  on  the  part  of 
the  church  as  a  whole  against  what  is  happening  in  Ulster. 

Q.     I  can  understand  that  you  might  have  strong  Unionist  syn> 


569 

pathies  and  vet  feel  very  strong  abhorrence  against  what  is  taking 
place  where  Protestants  are  taking  the  aggression  and  Catholics  are 
the  victims.     Has  such  a  protest  been  made? 

A.  Not  that  I  have  heard  of.  It  may  have  been  made,  but  I  have 
not  heard  of  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  By  what  authority  are  these  people  compelled 
to  live  in  certain  districts? 

A.  Largely  by  the  authority  of  the  Orange  leaders.  And  un- 
fortunately the  police  and  soldiers  are  not  regarded  as  a  neutral 
body.  They  are  not  so  regarded  by  the  Orangemen.  They  are 
regarded  by  the  Orangemen  to  a  very  great  extent  as  being  there  to 
uphold  their  views  as  against  the  others.  They  are  not  a  neutral 
body.  And  unfortunately  that  view  has  made  it  possible  to  enforce 
these  ghettos. 

Q.     Commissioner  Thomas:  Have  you  any  idea  of  the  number  of 


(i- 


people  living  in  these  ghett 

A.  That  I  should  think  would  be  very  hard  to  obtain,  except  by 
a  house-to-house  canvass.  When  I  was  in  Belfast  I  saw  the  relief 
books,  and  there  were  more  than  twenty  thousand  people  being 
maintained  on  the  books  as  a  result  of  these  outrages. 

Q.     That  was  in  July? 

A.     In  October  of  this  year. 

Q.     Do  you  not  have  what  are  called  doles  in  Belfast? 

A.  Yes,  the  unemployment  insurance.  But  these  people  have 
escaped  the  benefits  of  that  because  the  expulsions  came  before  that 
Act  became  operative. 

Q.     Did  you  not  have  some  Act  before  that? 

A.  Yes,  but  only  for  a  small  proportion  of  the  workers  from  the 
trade  unions. 

Q.     Has  that  been  honestly  administered? 

A.  Yes,  as  far  as  it  goes.  But  then,  of  course,  some  of  the 
trade  unions  are  not  paying  their  benefits  because  of  the  political 
opinions  of  their  members. 

Q.  Do  you  not  have  in  Belfast  what  are  called  the  ordinary 
charitable  societies?     Are  they  functioning? 

A.  Yes,  they  are  to  some  extent.  The  Saint  Vincent  de  Paul 
Society  is  administering  some  of  these  relief  funds,  but  I  don't  think 
that  our  charitable  societies  in  Ireland  compare  with  what  exists  in 
America.  We  have  been  much  more  in  the  habit  of  administering 
unemployment  doles,  as  you  called  them,  through  unemployment 
societies,  rather  than  through  charitable  organizations. 


570 

REPUBLICAN  HOUSES  OF  LISBURN  BURNED  AS 
REPRISAL  FOR  ACT  OF  STRANGERS 

In  addition  to  Belfast,  I  also  visited  Lisburn.  Lisburn  was  a  very 
prosperous  linen  town  just  outside  of  Belfast.  In  September  of  this 
year  District  Inspector  Swanzy  was  in  Lisburn.  I  believe  that  some 
time  this  week  you  are  to  have  evidence  offered  by  the  relatives  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  Mayor  MacCurtain.  Well,  when 
Mayor  MacCurtain  was  murdered  in  Cork,  the  Sinn  Fein  organi- 
zation and  the  local  authorities,  I  believe,  through  such  evidence  as 
they  could  get  of  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  and  the 
attempt  on  Professor  Stockley,  found  out  who  some  of  the  parties 
responsible  for  the  murder  were.  The  police  who  took  part  in  the 
murder  of  the  Lord  Mayor  have  been  tracked  down  by  Sinn  Fein. 
I  was  told  that  District  Inspector  Swanzy  was  one  of  the  persons 
responsible  for  Mayor  MacCurtain's  death.  After  his  death  Swanzy 
was  removed  from  Cork  and  sent  to  Lisburn.  He  was  coming  out 
of  one  of  the  chief  Protestant  churches  in  Lisburn  one  Sunday  when 
three  motor  cars  came  up  filled  by  men  who  were  veiled,  by  men 
who  were  strangers  to  the  district.  They  held  up  the  congregation 
and  District  Inspector  Swanzy  was  shot  dead  as  he  was  coming  out 
of  church.  In  that  district  you  had  a  mixed  population,  an  Orange 
population  and  a  Catholic  population.  The  Orange  population  rose 
against  the  Catholic  inhabitants  of  the  town  and  the  Sinn  Fein  and 
Nationalists  leaders,  and  burned  their  houses,  although  the  murder 
was  admittedly  committed  by  men  who  were  strangers  in  the  town. 
The  town  burned  Sunday  night  and  a  large  part  of  Monday,  and  no 
attempt  was  made  to  extinguish  the  flames,  although  Lisburn  is 
quite  near  to  Belfast,  and  the  skies  were  lit  up  for  miles  around. 

As  we  walked  into  the  town  our  attention  was  directed  to  a  poster 
on  which  the  ink  was  absolutely  fresh  and  new.  It  was  on  the 
morning  of  October  thirteenth.     That  notice  said: 

""The  Scriptures  said,  'An  eye  for  an  eye.'  But  we  say, 
three  lives  for  every  life  of  a  member  of  the  forces  of  the 
Crown  who  may  be  killed  or  injured  on  the  streets  of 
Lisburn." 

As  we  walked  through  Lisburn  we  saw  remnants  of  the  same  notice. 
It  had  been  posted  that  morning,  and  had  been  pulled  down  by  the 
police. 

As  we  walked  into  Lisburn,  we  stood  at  the  top  of  the  main  street 
of  the  town  and  looked  around  and  down  on  the  town.  And  I 
should  say  that  one  house  out  of  three  had  been  destroyed.  Some 
of  them  were  simply  heaps  of  stone,  and   from   other  houses  the 


571 

walls  and  windows  were  gone.  The  picture  was  one  of  absolute 
devastation.  It  reminded  me  of  pictures  I  had  seen  of  the  northern 
district  of  France  after  the  German  invasion. 

PITIABLE  CONDITION  OF  HOMELESS  REFUGEES 
FROM  LISBURN 

The  people  seemed  to  be  very  suspicious  of  us  as  we  questioned 
them,  so  we  just  walked  around  and  asked  a  few  questions  and  left. 
I  wanted  to  find  out  what  had  happened  to  all  the  women  and 
children  expelled  from  this  town.  I  went  back  to  the  Expelled 
Workers'  Relief  Committee  in  Belfast  and  asked  to  see  them.  1 
was  taken  to  Falls  Road.  It  is  part  of  the  constituency  in  Belfast 
which  is  represented  by  Mr.  Devlin.  Falls  Road  is  a  long  street 
with  tram  cars  running  through  it,  and  intersected  by  cross  streets. 
Those  cross  streets  are  cobbled.  And  in  all  these  cross  streets  the 
cobbles  have  been  torn  up  at  one  time  or  another  for  ammunition 
for  fights.  It  seems  to  me  that  with  all  the  soldiers  and  police 
around  there,  it  would  have  been  very  useful  if  they  had  been  put 
to  work  cementing  them  down  for  the  preservation  of  the  peace. 

I  was  taken  to  a  long  hall  in  Falls  Road  operated  by  Catholic 
sisters.  There  were  three  long  rows  of  beds,  and  sitting  on  the  edges 
of  them  were  some  of  the  women  who  had  been  driven  out  of  those 
houses  in  Lisburn.  I  spoke  to  one  old  woman  of  seventy,  very 
infirm,  who  never  had  any  bad  words  with  her  neighbors,  and  who 
was  driven  out  of  her  house  and  could  not  get  permission  to  take  a 
thing  with  her.  All  her  possessions,  the  accumulation  of  a  lifetime, 
were  lost  in  her  house.  I  spoke  to  another  woman,  a  widow  with 
four  children;  and  to  another  one  who  had  lost  all.  I  saw  the 
Belgian  refugees  who  came  to  us  in  Manchester.  But  those  people 
were  absolutely  the  most  hopeless-looking  lot  of  people  I  have  ever 
seen.  You  see,  in  the  northeast  it  is  almost  impossible  for  a  boy 
who  wants  to  enter  a  skilled  trade  to  get  a  place  if  he  is  known 
to  be  a  Catholic.  If  the  parents  of  the  boy  wished  to  give  him  a 
trade,  they  would  send  him  to  Dublin  or  Cork  or  some  other  city, 
— that  is,  if  they  could  afford  it.  He  could  not  get  into  a  skilled 
trade  in  Belfast.  And,  of  course,  those  women  were  the  wives  and 
mothers  of  unskilled  laborers;  and  it  has  been  very  difficult  for  a 
woman  in  that  life  to  get  a  decent  home  together.  A  woman  who 
has  got  such  a  home  together  and  reared  children  has  given  up  a 
very  great  deal  of  her  vitality  and  strength.  And,  of  course,  those 
women  were  in  that  condition.  I  wish  I  could  convey  to  this  Com- 
mission the  saddening  depression  that  the  sight  of  those  women  gave 


572 

to  me.  They  lacked  life.  And  then  the  children.  They  were  abso- 
lutely without  anything  to  do.  The  children  had  no  toys  or  any- 
thing at  all.     The  misery  in  that  hall  was  very,  very  depressing. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  How  many  people  were  in  that  hall? 

A.  I  really  could  not  say.  I  did  not  want  to  count  them.  And, 
of  course,  there  were  many,  many  more.  But  I  did  not  want  to 
see  them.     I  felt  that  was  quite  enough. 

LONDONDERRY  LIKE  A  BELEAGUERED  CITY 

I  did  not  go  to  Londonderry.  Some  of  the  members  of  our  Com- 
mission went  to  Londonderry,  where,  of  course,  you  have  a  very 
extraordinary  situation.  The  city  corporation  is  evenly  divided  be- 
tween the  Sinn  Fein  and  the  Unionists.  The  mayor  of  the  city  is 
Sinn  Fein.  That,  of  course,  is  like  a  beleaguered  city.  The  streets 
are  dug  in  trenches,  and  the  people  go  about  wearing  steel  helmets 
and  the  like.  But  I  did  not  see  that,  and  so  I  don't  want  to  say 
anything  about  it. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Mrs.  Robinson,  you  are  still  secre- 
tary of  the  Women's  Trade  Union  League? 

A.     Yes,  organizing  secretary. 

Q.     And  Miss  Ashton,  did  she  go? 

A.     No,  she  did  not  go.    She  is  not  well. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  think  it  might  be  interesting  to  know 
that  Miss  Ashton  is  a  sister-in-law  of  Lord  Bryce,  who  was  here. 

ENGLISH  LABOR  PARTY  COMMITTED  TO   SELF- 
DETERMINATION  FOR  IRELAND 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  In  the  beginning  you  spoke  about  the  dif- 
ferent organizations  that  were  protesting  against  conditions  in  Ire- 
land. You  said  that  your  committee  was  holding  meetings  and 
issuing  literature.    What  attitude  does  the  Labor  Party  take? 

A.  Well,  the  Labor  Party,  as  you  know,  has  a  mission  now  in 
Ireland,  and  has  had  several  others  over  there.  But  having  left 
England  on  the  eighth  of  December,  I  do  not  know  what  they  have 
done. 

Q.     But  what  have  they  done  before  that? 

A.  They  have  held  demonstrations  and  issued  a  report.  I  under- 
stand that  they  have  issued  instructions  to  all  their  branches 
throughout  the  country  to  hold  demonstrations  and  take  action  upon 
it.  I  imagine  that  probably  the  influence  of  the  Labor  Party  is  the 
greatest  tool  and  the  most  effective  weapon  that  can  be  brought 
to  bear  upon  the  Government  to  change  its  Irish  policy. 


573 

Q.     To  what  extent  has  it  committed  itself  on  the  question? 

A.  It  has  committed  itself  by  many  resolutions,  on  the  occasion 
of  all  of  its  meetings,  to  Irish  self-determination.  And  the  Labor 
group  has  not  only  to  face  the  question  of  independence  for  Ire- 
land, but  the  split  in  Belfast,  which,  of  course,  is  a  negation  of  trade 
union  principles. 

Q.     Is  there  any  other  group  besides  the  Labor  Party? 

A.  Yes,  the  Free  Liberals,  led  by  Mr.  Asquith.  The  Society  of 
Friends  also  sent  a  commission  to  Ireland. 

Q.     Are  the  Free  Liberals  doing  anything  now? 

A.  They  are  for  dominion  home  rule.  But,  of  course,  they  are 
numerically  a  very  small  party  in  British  politics. 

Q.     Even  numerically  they  are  very  small? 

A.     Yes,  smaller  than  the  British  Labor  Party. 

ENGLISH   PEOPLE  MISLED   BY   OFFICIAL  PRESS 
AND  REPORTS  OF  IRISH  STRUGGLE 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Is  there  a  feeling  that  the  Govern- 
ment is  not  supported  by  the  mass  of  the  English  people,  on  account 
of  the  elections  being  held  on  a  different  issue? 

A.  I  could  not  say  that,  because,  of  course,  the  people  do  not 
know.  The  reports  of  shootings  and  reprisals  and  all  that  have 
been  published  only  on  one  side.  On  that  side  you  have  the  great 
mass  of  official  papers  and  official  reports,  which  make  the  people 
believe  that  the  shootings  and  the  atrocities  in  Ireland  have  been 
wholly  unprovoked.  And  that,  of  course,  is  very  harmful  on  the 
attitude  of  the  people. 

Q.  But  if  the  shooting  of  policemen  did  not  begin  until  1918  or 
1919,  what  appeal  or  argument  did  these  same  newspapers  take 
towards  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  of  course,  there  was  no  mention  of  Ireland  in  the  news- 
papers until  1918.  And  then  to  the  average  reader,  when  these 
murders  were  mentioned,  they  appeared  to  be  entirely  unprovoked. 

LABOR  INFLUENCES  A  SOLVENT  FOR  ULSTER 
PREJUDICES 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  You  have  been  giving  us  the  testimony  of 
others  on  the  religious  situation.  Now,  do  you  mind  briefing  your 
opinion  as  to  the  extent  to  which  the  religious  issue  figures  in  Irish 
politics?  It  is  emphasized  very  much  in  this  country.  Now,  what 
Do  you  think  it  is   an   artificially  created 

"iou  mean  as  regards  England? 


574 

Q.  Engjand  in  Ireland.  Is  it  a  faked  issue?  That  is  what  I 
mean. 

A.  Well,  no.  The  issue  of  religion  is  a  very  real  issue,  of 
course.  But,  as  I  pointed  out,  it  is  largely  kept  alive  by  the  politi- 
cal influences,  by  the  economic  influences  headed  by  Sir  Edward 
Carson;  kept  alive  for  political  reasons.  If  it  had  not  been  for 
anybody's  political  advantage  to  perpetuate  this  difference,  I  think 
to  a  very  great  extent  it  would  have  died  down. 

Q.     Commissioner  Newman:  But  these  differences  are  there? 

A.  They  are,  of  course.  But  I  should  think  that  the  labor  influ- 
ences are  a  very  great  solvent.  In  spite  of  what  happened  there 
the  twenty-first  of  July,  they  will  be  a  very  great  solvent. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Is  Ireland  drifting  to  a  labor  basis?  * 

A.  Northeast  Ulster  is.  The  rest  of  Ireland  is  not.  As  I  pointed 
out,  Sir  Edward  Carson  has  safeguarded  the  interests  he  represents 
against  any  possible  capital  levy  by  a  labor-controlled  Ulster  Par- 
liament by  including  in  the  new  Home  Rule  Bill  an  express  pro- 
vision against  it,  and  by  including  the  anti-Labor  counties  of  Tyrone 
and  Fermanagh  to  guard  against  any  capital  levy.  Of  course, 
otherwise  Tyrone  and  Fermanagh  would  not  have  been  included 
at  all. 

PRESENT  HOME  RULE  BILL  DRAWN  TO  PROTECT 
ULSTER  PROPERTY  INTERESTS 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  Mrs.  Robinson,  what  do  you  mean 
by  a  capital  levy? 

A.  A  capital  levy  is  a  tax  on  wealth  to  pay  for  the  war.  It  is 
an  integral  part  of  Labor  political  policy. 

Q.     And  this  is  inhibited  in  this  present  Home  Rule  Bill? 

A.  Yes,  it  is.  And  there  is  another  thing  that  ought  to  be  em- 
phasized, and  that  is  that  the  only  party  in  Ireland  that  is  supporting 
the  present  Home  Rule  Bill  in  British  politics  is  the  Ulster  faction. 
In  1914  the  Ulsterites  said  they  would  not  accept  home  rule,  and 
armed  themselves  to  rise  in  rebellion   against  it. 

Q.     What  was  the  real  reason  for  that  opposition  then? 

A.  Well,  you  see,  as  I  have  said,  it  threatened  certain  property 
interests  in  Ulster.  These  interests  have  been  protected  as  far  as 
possible  in  the  present  Home  Rule  Bill,  which  exempts  them  from 
a  capital  levy  to  pay  the  cost  of  the  war. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  there  are  people  in  the  British  Govern- 
ment, as  there  are  in  the  American,  that  would  sooner  give  their 
sons  to  war  than  their  money. 

The  Witness:  Quite  right.     Quite  right. 


575 

AMERICAN  RED  CROSS  NOT  DOING  RELIEF  WORK 
IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  These  women  you  described  awhile 
ago  are  living  on  charity? 

A.     Absolutely. 

Q.     And  did  you  find  any  sickness  among  them? 

A.     Yes,  there  is  sickness. 

Q.     They  are  very  helpless? 

A.  Absolutely  helpless.  You  see,  not  only  their  homes  are  de- 
stroyed, but  everything  they  owned  was  destroyed.  Their  whole 
hold  on  life  has  been  taken  away  from  them. 

Q.  Now.  in  this  country  we  have  the  Red  Cross  as  a  relief 
agency.     Has  it  done  any  work  in  Ireland? 

A.     No,  it  has  not  been  in  Ireland. 

Senator  Walsh :  I  understand  that  the  Red  Cross  has  taken  the 
position  that  they  cannot  function  in  any  country  or  government 
without  the  consent  of  the  authorities  of  that  government. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Indeed? 

Commissioner  Wood :  You  are  speaking  about  the  British  Red 
Cross,  are  you  not,  Mr.  Maurer? 

Mrs.  Robinson :  The  Geneva  Red  Cross,  perhaps. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  But  in  my  contributions  to  the  Red  Cross 
I  thought  they  ought  to  function  anywhere  in  the  world  where  there 
was  need  of  them  to  relieve  human  misery  and  suffering. 

Senator  Norris:  Yes,  exactly,  without  any  consideration  of  the 
politics  of  the  sufferers. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Yes,  indeed.  I  know  one  physician  from 
my  home  who  volunteered  to  go  when  the  war  broke  out.  I  knew 
he  was  a  pacifist,  and  I  said  to  him,  "Where  are  you  going?"  And 
he  said,  "I  don't  know  and  I  don't  care.  I  only  know  there  is  suffer- 
ing, and  I  am  going  where  it  is  to  help."  Now,  is  it  possible, 
Senator,  that  with  all  this  suffering  in  Ireland,  the  British  Govern- 
ment would  not  allow  the  Red  Cross  to  go  to  Ireland  to  help  these 
people? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  don't  know.  But  I  do  know  that  Miss  Mac- 
Swiney  and  Mrs.  MacSwiney  called  upon  the  American  Red  Cross 
while  they  were  in  Washington,  and  they  were  informed,  as  I  said, 
that  they  could  not  operate  where  the  government  did  not  give  its 
consent. 

Senator  Norris:  Do  you  mean  the  British  Government  would  not 
give  its  consent  to  relieve  that  suffering? 

Senator  Walsh:  I  do  not  know. 


576 

Senator  Norris:  According  to  that,  either  the  British  Government 
or  the  American  Red  Cross  is  at  fault,  and  I  would  like  to  know 
which. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  So  would  I.  If  we  are  to  support  an 
organization  which  is  to  be  a  political  tool,  I  think  we  ought  to 
know  about  it. 

Senator  Norris:  So  do  I, 

ENGLISH  PUBLIC  BEWILDERED  BY  TRUTH  ABOUT 
CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  spoke  about  the  demonstrations 
being  held  in  England. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Are  those  meetings  well  attended? 

A.  Very  well  indeed.  I  think  they  are  the  most  crowded  meet- 
ings I  have  ever  seen.  .  . 

Q.     What  was  the  attitude  of  the  people  who  attended  them? 

A.  Tremendous  sympathy  and  utter  bewilderment.  You  see,  in 
England  we  have  a  very  great  number  of  British  Irish.  Take  Man- 
chester, my  own  home.  There  is  a  very  great  number  of  Irish 
people  there  who  have  come  over  from  Ireland.  There  is  a  very 
large  branch  of  the  Irish  Self-Determination  League.  On  the  occa- 
sion of  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney  of  Cork  there  was  a 
procession  five  miles  long  in  the  streets  of  Manchester.  And  these 
people  know  all  the  time  what  is  going  on.  Of  course,  there  is  not 
quite  the  same  bewilderment  among  them  that  there  is  among  others. 

Q.  Of  course,  we  have  that  common  meeting  point  of  an  Irish 
population.  But  do  you  think  that  your  meetings  have  been  largely 
made  up  of  the  Irish  population  in  England? 

A.  No,  no.  We  have  had  a  very  large  proportion  of  other 
people. 

Q.  You  think  that  a  large  part  of  them  is  made  up  of  people 
who  were  ignorant  of  this  subject? 

A.  Yes,  certainly.  And  certainly  there  is  a  rising  tide  of  public 
opinion  on  this  matter.  And  people  everywhere  are  saying  that 
whatever  can  be  done  to  restore  peace  in  Ireland  should  be  done. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  is  the  feeling  of  the  English  people  in 
regard  to  this  Commission? 

A.  I  don't  think  there  is  very  much  known  about  it  at  all.  At 
the  same  time,  at  the  meeting  we  held  in  the  Free  Trade  Hall  on  the 
twenty-first  of  September,  there  was  a  motion  that  someone  from 
that  meeting  ought  to  be  sent  to  testify  here.     Among  the  members 


577 

of  the  Irish  Self-Determination  League  there  is  a  very  great  feeling 
and  a  very  great  hope  built  up  on  the  outcome  of  the  findings  of 
this  Commission. 

Q.     You  mean  on  public  opinion  in  America? 

A.  Yes,  and  1  should  think  and  hope  that  il  should  have  a  very 
great  influence  on  public  opinion  in  England. 

ENGLISH  ATTITUDE  TOWARD  AMERICAN  INQUIRY 
INTO  EVENTS  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  any  reference  or  publicity  about 
the  meetings  of  this  Commission  here  appear  in  the  English  papers? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  yes,  yes.  But  the  papers,  naturally,  were  papers 
like  the  Manchester  Guardian. 

Q.  Do  these  organizations  recognize  that  there  are  a  very  great 
many  people  of  Irish  extraction  in  the  United  States? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  it  is  recognized  by  many  of  the  people.  I  knew  it, 
and  Miss  Wilkinson  knew  it.  But  I  doubt  if  it  is  very  popularly 
recognized. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Your  statement  that  there  was  such 
interest  taken  in  your  meetings  in  Manchester  might  be  accounted 
for  in  part  by  the  fact  that  a  large  section  of  the  population  in 
Manchester  is  of  Irish  extraction. 

A.     Yes.     But  of  course  there  were  many,  many  others  there  too. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  As  far  as  you  are  aware,  there  is  a 
comprehension  of  how  inevitably  this  matter  must  enter  into  Ameri- 
can politics  and  shape  our  actions? 

A.  That,  I  think,  is  very  clearly  recognized, — its  effect  on  Amer- 
ican politics. 

Q.  We  do  not  want  to  use  you — to  talk  at  you  in  this  matter,  but 
some  of  us  feel  that  the  English  people  do  not  realize  just  how  near 
home  to  us  the  events  in  Ireland  come.  For  instance,  there  was  an 
English  editorial  quoted  in  one  of  our  American  papers  called 
"Damned  Impudence."  There  is  a  feeling  on  the  part  of  many  of 
us  that  "Damned  Impudence"  might  very  possibly  result  in  worse 
things. 

A.  Well,  you  see,  I  have  been  very,  very  closely  associated  with 
the  groups  I  have  been  discussing  with  you,  and  I  don't  know  about 
the  other  side.  The  best  persons  to  explain  that  attitude  would  be 
persons  associated  with  the  other  side. 

Q.  We  have  tried  to  get  them  to  come  and  testify,  but  they  will 
not  do  so. 

A.     Yes. 


578 

ENGLISH  NEWSPAPER  MEN  PROTEST  AGAINST 
TREATMENT  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  is  the  present  news  going 
from  this  country  distorted  and  colored? 

A.     Very,  very  greatly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  May  I  ask  a  question?  During  your  investiga- 
tions in  Ireland,  did  you  learn  anything  of  interference  with  re- 
porters of  newspapers  in  their  getting  news? 

A.  No,  I  did  not  come  across  that.  Miss  Wilkinson  would  be 
very  much  better  able  to  tell  you  about  that  than  I.  That  was  in 
the  south  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Had  a  committee  of  newspaper  men  protested  against  their 
treatment  in  Ireland  before  you  left  London? 

A.  Yes,  they  certainly  had  protested  against  the  treatment  of 
Hugh  Martin. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Chairman  Howe:  The  meeting  will  adjourn  until  two-thirty, 
when  Miss  Wilkinson  will  give  evidence. 

*  *  *  *  -X-  *  *  * 

2:36  P.  M. 

Commissioner  Addams  (presiding)  :  If  the  Commission  will  be  in 
session,  Miss  Wilkinson  will  begin. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  ELLEN  C.  WILKINSON 

Q.     Will  you  give  your  name,  Miss  Wilkinson? 

A.     Ellen  C.  Wilkinson. 

Q.     And  your  address  is  Manchester? 

A.     Yes,  18  Alma  Road,  Manchester. 

Q.     May  we  ask  your  occupation? 

A.     I  am  a  trade  union  official. 

Q.     What  is  your  position,  please? 

A.  I  am  national  organizer  for  the  Amalgamated  Union  of  Co- 
operative Employees. 

Q.     Are  you  representing  any  organization  here? 

A.      I  represent  only  the  Women's  International  League  here. 

Q.  The  English  League  sent  a  mission  to  Ireland,  of  which  you 
were  a  member? 

A.     Yes,  of  which  I  was  a  member. 

Q.  We  have  been  asking  people  for  their  religious  affiliations. 
I  don't  know  why  we  have  been  doing  it,  but  may  we  ask  you? 

A.     I  am  a  Wesleyan  Methodist. 


579 

SCOPE  OF  EVIDENCE  AND  INVESTIGATIONS 

Q.  Miss  Wilkinson,  will  you  begin  and  make  the  statement  that 
you  had  outlined  of  your  experiences  in  Ireland. 

A.  Well,  I  thought  it  might  be  better  if  I  divided  my  evidence 
into  sections.  I  thought  perhaps  that  if  I  had  one  section  on  the 
economic  blockade  of  Ireland,  one  section  on  the  raids,  lootings, 
and  sackings,  one  section  on  the  southern  Unionists,  with  whom  I 
took  a  great  deal  of  care  to  get  in  touch;  and  then,  if  time  permits, 
the  consideration  of  the  military  organization  in  the  south  of  Ire- 
land,— I  might  proceed  in  that  way  if  that  covers  the  case. 

Commissioner  Addams:    I  think  it  does. 

The  Witness:    Then  of  course  you  will  ask  questions. 

Q.     Then  you  will  begin  with  the  economic  blockade? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  don't  mind  our  asking  ques- 
tions? 

A.  0  no,  not  at  all.  I  might  say  that  I,  with  two  members  of 
the  Society  of  Friends,  covered  Dublin,  Limerick,  Galway  and 
Tuam;  and  then  on  up  the  west  coast  of  County  Clare  to  Ennistv- 
mon,  and  then  to  Cork  and  Mallow.  When  we  went  to  Limerick,  of 
course,  we  found  that  the  proposition  of  traveling  on  the  Irish  rail- 
ways was  very  difficult  indeed,  and  we  motored  over  a  good  deal  of 
Western  Ireland. 

Q.     What  date  was  that? 

A.  The  first  two  weeks  of  October,  1920.  We  returned  October 
seventeenth. 

BRITISH  ECONOMIC  POLICY  IN  IRELAND 
First  of  all.  as  to  the  policy  of  the  British  Government  in  Ire- 
land. It  seemed  to  us  that  there  was  a  policy  behind  the  Govern- 
ment's economic  blockade  of  Ireland.  Lord  French,  who  is  the 
Viceroy  of  Ireland,  made  a  speech  in  which  he  said  that  the  trouble 
with  Ireland  was  that  there  were  two  hundred  thousand  too  many 
young  men  in  Ireland.  Of  course,  as  you  know,  emigration  to  Amer- 
ica was  stopped.  Previously  it  had  been  the  custom  for  a  great 
number  of  young  men  and  women  to  emigrate  every  year.  And 
Lord  French  assumed  that  these  young  men  and  women,  many  of 
whom  had  gone  to  fight  in  the  war,  with  which  they  were  not  very 
sympathetic,  were  the  cause  of  all  the  trouble.  And  I  learned  that 
it  was  the  policy  of  the  British  Government  to  get  the  young  men 
out  of  the  way.  I  don't  mean  to  assume  that  Lord  French  was  a 
blackface  at  all,  but  that  he  felt  that  it  was  a  great  deal  better  to 
get  the  young  hotbloods  to  America  than  to  have  them  remain  in 
Ireland  and  make  trouble. 


580 

DESTRUCTION  OF  IRISH  AGRICULTURAL 
PROSPERITY 

There  is  another  thing.  At  the  beginning  of  the  war,  agriculture 
in  Ireland  was  more  prosperous  than  it  ever  was  before.  They  had 
developed  dairy  farming  and  cattle  raising  for  the  English  market. 
And  of  course,  during  the  war  we  were  rather  more  polite  to  Ire- 
land than  we  have  been  since;  for  of  course  Ireland  could  have 
blockaded  us,  and  could  have  made  a  very  serious  difference  to  our 
food  supply  if  she  had  wanted  to.  Of  course,  since  the  war  Ireland 
has  not  been  important  in  that  respect. 

First  of  all  regarding  agriculture.  When  I  was  in  West  Clare  and 
Limerick  there  was  a  wholesale  burning  of  hay  ricks.  That  was  ex- 
tremely important,  because  on  the  hay  ricks  depended  the  cattle,  and 
hence  the  creameries.  And  of  course,  in  burning  the  hay  ricks,  you 
destroyed  the  very  foundations  of  Irish  agricultural  prosperity.  It 
was  said  by  the  British  military  authorities  that  these  were  reprisals 
against  Sinn  Feiners;  but  that  was  not  so,  because  in  Pallaskenry, 
in  Limerick  and  places  in  Kildare  which  are  Protestant  settlements, 
their  ricks  were  burned  too. 

There  was  a  great  deal  of  difficulty,  too,  in  importing  cattle  fod- 
der. I  have  with  me  a  clipping  from  the  Irish  Independent  of  Oc- 
tober 8,  1920,  in  which  it  is  stated  from  a  Belgian  paper  that  the 
British  Controller  General  had  issued  a  proclamation  against  the 
importation  of  cattle  fodder  into  the  United  Kingdom,  and  that  that 
prohibition  of  importation  was  absolute  against  Ireland.  The  Irish 
farmers,  after  their  own  hay  had  been  burned,  had  been  importing 
cattle  fodder  from  England.  That  meant  that  they  could  not  get 
feed  for  their  cattle  at  any  price. 

Then  another  very  serious  blow  to  the  agricultural  prosperity  of 
Ireland  was  the  prohibition  of  fairs  and  markets.  The  British  Gov- 
ernment felt  that  the  fairs  and  markets  were  breeding-grounds  for 
sedition.  However  that  might  be,  they  were  also  the  ordinary  me- 
diums of  exchange,  where  the  British  buyers  got  into  touch  with  the 
sellers  of  Irish  cattle.  And  that,  of  course,  made  the  situation  of 
the  farmer  a  great  deal  more  difficult. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  May  I  ask  if  that  prohibition  of  the 
importation  of  cattle  food  from  Belgium  was  to  prevent  the  spread 
of  the  hoof  and  mouth  disease,  and  that  was  on  a  different  basis 
from  the  prohibition  of  the  holding  of  fairs  and  markets? 

A.  No.  The  British  Government  openly  said  that  the  prohibi- 
tion of  fairs  and  markets  was  to  prevent  people  coming  together  to 
breed  plots  against  the  British  Government. 

Q.  There  was  no  reason  given  for  the  prohibition  of  importa- 
tion of  food  stuffs  from  Belgium? 

A.     No,  of  course  there  was  not.     And  of  course  these  things  are 


581 

not  done  openly.  You  only  find  out  they  are  going  on  when  you 
try  to  import  cattle  fodder.  This  thing  came  to  light  because  the 
Irish  farmers  were  trying  to  get  cattle  fodder  to  replace  their  ruined 
hay. 

IRISH   PACKING   AND    MILLING   INDUSTRIES 
CRIPPLED  BY  NON-IMPORTATION  ORDER 

The  next  thing  was  the  importation  of  cattle.  I  interviewed  a 
number  of  the  most  prominent  employers  of  Limerick  in  this  indus- 
try. One  of  the  most  important  was  Mr.  O'Mara,  who  was  a  very 
prominent  member  of  the  Irish  Party  in  the  British  Parliament.  He 
has  one  of  the  largest  bacon  curing  factories  in  Limerick,  and  he 
told  me  that  the  average  killing  of  pigs  there  had  been  two  thou- 
sand a  week,  and  that  since  the  blockade  they  were  only  able  to  get 
six  hundred.  And  he  said  that  the  reason  for  that  was  that  when 
his  buyers  went  around  the  country,  they  could  not  go  to  the  mar- 
kets, because  these  had  been  suppressed,  and  they  had  to  go  to  the 
individual  farmers.  They  had  been  shown  telegrams  by  the  Irish 
station  masters  on  the  Irish  railways  that  no  cattle  or  pigs  could  be 
received.  Limerick,  I  must  explain,  is  one  of  the  danger  points  in 
the  west.  I  do  not  know  why  it  should  be,  but  it  has  always  been 
the  center  of  very  bitter  feeling.  There  was  practically  an  eco- 
nomic blockade  going  on.  And  of  course  that  resulted  in  a  large 
amount  of  unemployment.  For  of  course  Mr.  O'Mara  was  only  one 
of  many  bacon  curers,  and  a  large  number  of  his  men  were  unem- 
ployed, as  were  others  too. 

Then  Limerick  was  a  large  milling  center.  The  ships  which  were 
bringing  flour  to  Limerick  were  diverted  north.  Mr.  O'Mara  said 
that  he  was  under  the  impression  that  the  big  business  interests  in 
Belfast  had  a  big  trade  hold  on  the  Dublin  Government,1  and  that 
they  were  able  to  cut  off  supplies  from  southern  firms.  He  knew 
that  the  pigs  he  wanted  to  buy  were  being  diverted  north,  and  that 
the  flour  his  mills  needed  was  being  diverted  north.  And  he  felt 
that  the  big  business  interests  of  the  north  had  the  aid  of  the  Gov- 
ernment in  diverting  the  flour  and  the  bacon  they  needed  in  Lim- 
erick. That,  of  course,  again  caused  unemployment, — the  flour  be- 
ing diverted  north. 

PARALYSIS  OF  RAILWAYS  AND  RESTRICTION  OF 

MOTOR  TRANSPORT  CAUSE 

ECONOMIC  CRISIS 

Then  comes  the  railway  situation,  which  is  one  of  the  most  seri- 
ous unemployment  situations  Ireland  has  to  face.     As  you  know,  the 

1  The  reference  is  to  Dublin  Castle,  the  seat  of  Imperial  British  Govern- 
ment in  Ireland. 


582 

British  Council  of  Action,  as  the  result  of  the  British  railwaymen's 
action,  has  decided  that  it  would  not  ship  munitions  of  war  to  Po- 
land to  aid  in  the  war  against  Russia.  The  Irishmen  applied  that 
to  their  own  country,  and  said  they  would  not  engage  in  the  ship- 
ment of  arms  or  armed  troops  in  order  that  the  Irish  war  could  go 
on,  as  they  put  it.  That  for  a  time  was  effective.  But  a  sort  of 
modus  vivendi  was  arrived  at,  and  the  policy  of  the  Government 
was  changed.  The  munitions  were  sent  by  road.  The  Ministry  of 
Transportation,  under  Sir  Eric  Geddes,  carried  this  policy  through, 
and  determined  that  this  could  not  go  on,  and  that  the  Irish  rail- 
waymen  must  carry  whatever  they  were  given  to  carry.  And  there- 
fore an  arrangement  was  made  between  the  British  Ministry  of 
Transportation  and  the  Irish  railway  companies,  which  of  course 
are  dependent  on  Government  subsidies,  because  the  Government 
took  over  all  the  railroads  during  the  war  and  gave  them  a  subsidy 
from  which  to  make  up  their  profits.  This  arrangement  was  that  any 
railwayman  or  guard  who  refused  to  carry  munitions  on  an  Irish 
train  should  be  dismissed  when  he  reached  the  end  of  his  journey. 
It  has  been  only  a  question* of  time  as  to  how  soon  the  railways  in 
Ireland  should  be  completely  stopped.  I  know  once  or  twice  when 
we  were  traveling  on  the  main  line  from  Dublin  to  Galway,  once 
or  twice  soldiers  got  on  the  train ;  and"  if  they  got  on  carrying  their 
rifles,  then  the  Irish  railwaymen  would  not  carry  them.  But  if  they 
had  no  arms,  the  railwaymen  would  carry  them.  For  instance,  Lim- 
erick, which  is  the  most  important  commercial  center  on  the  west 
of  Ireland,  had  only  one  train  a  day  into  and  one  train  a  day  out 
of  it,  and  you  could  not  tell  when  that  would  run.  And  sometimes 
it  wouldn't  run  at  all.  The  only  train  you  could  depend  on  was  the 
one  o'clock  train  on  Sunday,  on  which  soldiers  did  not  ride.  And 
of  course  business  men  know  what  such  a  situation  means  to  trade. 
Limerick  is  on  the  west  coast,  and  Galway  is  just  fifty  miles  north. 
Galway  is  the  next  important  center  to  Limerick,  and  obviously  the 
commercial  communications  between  those  two  towns  are  consider- 
able. If  you  wanted  to  go  between  these  two  places,  you  had  to  go 
all  the  way  east  across  the  country  to  Dublin,  and  then  back  again 
to  Galway!  It  meant  hours,  of  course,  instead  of  just  a  little  trip. 
If  we  had  a  map  here,  you  would  see  what  an  absurd,  roundabout 
way  of  travel  this  was. 

The  stopping  of  the  trains  meant  a  serious  lack  of  food  supply 
for  the  larger  towns.  The  Irish,  of  course,  tried  to  meet  this  by 
organizing  a  motor  transport,  as  the  English  Government  had  done 
at  the  time  of  the  railway  strike.  And  this  was  immediately  replied 
to  by  a  government  order  refusing  to  allow  the  free  use  of  motor 
transport.  No  person  was  allowed  to  drive  or  have  a  motor  with- 
out a  motor  license.  And  it  is  impossible, — not  theoretically  but 
practically  it  is  impossible  for  a  Sinn  Feiner  to  get  a  license.     And 


583 

the  O'Mara  people  again,  who  are  wealthy  people  in  Dublin,  got  a 
new  car:  and  as  soon  as  they  had  it  delivered,  a  British  officer  ap- 
peared and  took  away  the  important  parts  of  it.  He  apologized,  but 
said  he  had  to  demobilize  the  car.  It  was  only  with  the  greatest 
difficulty  that  we  could  get  a  motor  to  do  our  work. 

That  means  that  the  railway  transport  is  shut  down  and  the  motor 
transport  is  shut  down.  And  that  means  an  economic  blight  upon 
the  country.     Is  that  clear? 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  \es.  I  think  so.  Are  there  any 
questions  to  be  asked  about  this  economic  blockade? 

Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  I  understand  that  there  was  a  rule, 
either  legal  or  practical,  which  prevented  a  motor  being  driven  more 
than  a  few  miles  in  a  day?  One  of  our  other  witnesses  has  referred 
to  that. 

A.  Yes,  not  more  than  twenty  miles  from  the  town  of  the  owner. 
That  is  true,  but  that  is  not  so  difficult  to  get  out  of  as  in  getting  a 
car  at  all.  Unless  you  are  known  to  be  a  strong  supporter  of  the 
British  Government  or  a  part  of  the  military  government,  it  is  al- 
most impossible  to  get  a  car  at  all. 

HAY  RICKS  AND  HOUSES  BURNED  BY  BLACK-AND- 
TANS 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  You  spoke  about  the  burning  of 
hay  ricks.     Have  you  any  idea  of  how  extensive  that  is? 

A.  While  we  were  there,  all  the  hay  ricks  from  Limerick  up  the 
coast  to  Ennistymon  were  burned.  And  since  we  got  back,  in  Gal- 
way  and  Tipperary  loo.  It  is  not  true  that  all  the  hay  ricks  in  Ire- 
land have  been  burned,  as  some  have  said.  But  an  enormous  quan- 
tity has  been  lost. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    That  was  out  in  the  country,  of  course. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     What  organization  did  the  burning? 

A.     The  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  How  much  of  this  did  you  see  your- 
self? 

A.     Well,  of  course  I  saw  a  fair  amount  of  hay  burning. 

Q.     Actually  burning? 

A.  Yes,  actually  burning.  When  we  went  to  Limerick,  for  in- 
stance, we  were  taken  to  Brennan's  farm,  five  miles  out  of  Limerick. 
It  was  owned  by  a  widow.  Her  two  sons  were  heroes  in  the  country- 
side. One  of  them.  Michael  Brennan,  is  chairman  of  the  Clare 
County  Council.  Of  course  they  are  both  on  the  run.  And  the 
English  officers,  rightly  or  wrongly,  put  down'' many  of  the  occur- 
rences in  this  community  to  them.     So  the  English  officers  went  to 


584 

the  house,  told  Mrs.  Brennan  to  get  out  immediately,  and  burned 
the  house  and  the  hay. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    The  house  was  destroyed? 

A.  Yes,  all  destroyed.  And  when  we  motored  around  the  coun- 
try, we  saw  many  charred  stacks  of  hay,  some  of  them  still  burning. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Was  it  only  a  rumor  that  the  Black- 
and-Tans  did  that,  or  did  you  actually  see  them? 

A.  No,  of  course  I  didn't  see  them.  Only  in  Cork  was  I  actually 
in  a  scrap  myself.  All  these  things  went  on  at  night,  and  you  saw 
the  evidence  the  next  morning.  But  everybody  in  the  country  de- 
clares it  was  the  work  of  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Then  another  question  is  Irish  industry  as  apart  from  Irish  agri- 
culture. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:    Are  you  leaving  Irish  agriculture  now? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  you  come  to  the  burning  of  Irish  creameries? 

A.  Well,  I  put  creameries  under  industries.  It  is  a  very  arti- 
ficial division.     It  merely  keeps  my  mind  tidy. 

CRUSHING  OF  IRISH  INDUSTRIAL  MOVEMENT 
AND  BURNING  OF  CREAMERIES 

The  question  of  Irish  industries  is  important  in  this  sense.  I 
dare  say  a  good  many  people  here  have  read  the  books  on  the  Irish 
renaissance  "and  the  new  life  that  was  just  springing  up  before  the 
war.  The  great  idea  of  the  Irish  patriarchs  was,  of  course,  to  start 
industries  in  the  villages  in  order  that  young  men  and  women  might 
be  kept  in  the  villages  and  keep  Irish  life  alive.  They  saw  that  that 
was  the  only  way  to  keep  the  young  people  from  emigrating.  That 
led  to  the  encouragement  of  manufactures  and  the  cooperative 
creameries  movement.  The  creameries,  of  course,  were  started  by 
the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society  under  Sir  Horace 
Plunkett.  And  the  idea  was  that,  instead  of  having  the  difficulties 
and  waste  under  the  individual  farmer  trading  system,  to  collect  the 
milk  and  produce — milk  especially — of  the  farmers,  and  make  it 
into  butter  or  condensed  milk  or  any  of  the  various  dairy  products. 
Now,  these  creameries  were  very  largely  cooperative.  There  were 
a  few  capitalist  ones,  but  most  of  them  were  built  by  the  farmers 
themselves.  They  would  raise  money  on  their  land,  or  raise  it  in 
other  waysx  and  put  it  together  and  buy  the  machinery.  And  these 
creameries  gave  a  great  deal  of  employment,  especially  to  the  women 
in  the  countryside.  Then  there  were  such  mills  as  the  hosiery  mills 
at  Balbriggan  anct  various  other  mills.  Then  just  at  the  beginning 
of  the  war,  there  wi?5  a  very  important  commission  known  as  the 
Industrial  Development -Commission  started,  which  was  later  made 
an  official  commission  by  Dail  Eireann,  the  Irish  Parliament.     And 


585 

their  idea  was  to  map  out  Ireland  and  consider  just  where  they 
could  start  industries.  Darrell  Figgis  was  head  of  this  commission ; 
and  he  was  arrested,  of  course,  and  the  documents  of  the  commis- 
sion confiscated,  and  the  movement  crushed.  Then,  of  course,  there 
was  in  Ireland  the  general  cooperative  movement  along  the  Eng- 
lish lines. 

The  terrible  thing  is  that  a  great  many  of  the  Irish  people  feel 
that  this  crushing  of  the  new  industrial  movement  and  the  burning 
of  creameries  and  factories  is  part  of  England's  policy  toward  Ire- 
land. And  of  course  everyone  who  knows  history  knows  that  dur- 
ing the  time  of  Mercantilism  England  did  ruin  the  wool  industry  of 
Ireland,  and  gave  it  the  linen  industry  in  its  place.  But  to  me  it 
seemed  that  the  idea  of  the  English  Government  was  to  break  clown 
the  morale  of  the  people  and  cause  unemployment  and  get  the 
young  men  out  of  the  way,  rather  than  a  deliberate  policy  of  ruin- 
ing Irish  trade  and  industry.  Of  course  that  is  only  my  own  opin- 
ion.    And  the  Irish  people  have  much  to  support  their  view. 

Edward  Lysaght  started  a  cooperative  industry  near  Limerick, — 
a  very  interesting  man  who  was  on  the  run  and  managed  all  this 
business  during  the  day.  He  was  trying  to  raise  up  a  feeling  for 
peasant  crafts,  and  to  get  a  market  for  them.  And  all  his  works 
were  burned  down.     That  was  pretty  rotten. 

Q.     Commissioner  Newman:    When  was  that? 

A.  That  was  just  after  we  left  Limerick, — the  beginning  of  No- 
vember. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  say  creameries  have  been  gen- 
erally burned?  Do  you  know  how  many  have  been  burned?  How 
many  cooperative  creameries  were  there  in  Ireland,  in  fact? 

A.  I  believe  there  was  just  over  a  hundred,  and  forty-five  of 
them  have  been  burned,  I  believe. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  there  any  chance  of  getting  com- 
pensation for  the  loss  of  these  creameries? 

A.  Yes,  that  comes  under  the  Malicious  Injuries  Act,  and  ac- 
cording to  that,  the  people  who  suffer  the  loss  appeal  to  the  courts, 
and  the  damages  are  assessed  upon  the  inhabitants.  The  result  is 
that  in  Limerick,  with  44,000  people,  over  fifty  thousand  pounds  of 
damages  have  been  done.  And  it  meant  that  any  person  who  ap- 
pealed to  the  courts  would  get  their  damages  very  liberally  as- 
sessed, but  they  had  to  be  paid  by  the  people. 

CREAMERIES  BURNED  BY  BLACK-AND-TANS, 
DESPITE  DENIALS  OF  GOVERNMENT 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Who  burned  these  creameries,  the  Black- 
and-Tans? 

A.     Yes,  the  Black-and-Tans.     Many  of  them  have  been  investi- 


586 

gated  by  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  and  many  of  them  have  been  proved 
to  be  done  by  the  Black-and-Tans  and  soldiers,  proved  by  eye-wit- 
nesses. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  explanation  did  Sir  Hamar 
Greenwood  give  of  these  burnings  of  creameries  in  the  House  of 
Commons? 

A.  First  of  all,  he  said  it  did  not  occur.  And  when  we  showed 
him  pictures,  he  said  it  was  done  by  the  Irishmen.  And  when  we 
produced  evidence  by  eye-witnesses  that  they  were  burned  by  the 
armed  forces  of  the  Crown,  he  said  the  managers  were  Sinn  Feiners. 
He  also  tried  to  prove  that  they  were  used  as  Sinn  Fein  ambushes. 
Well,  of  course,  we  all  laughed  at  him,  for  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood 
is  a  kind  of  a  joke.  You  see,  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  is  put  in  the 
position  of  either  having  to  say  that  he  doesn't  know,  or  to  try  to 
explain.  He  has  usually  had  to  take  refuge  in  diplomatic  silence 
and  say  he  doesn't  know.  But  of  course  these  creameries  were  not 
used  as  Sinn  Fein  ambushes,  and  many  of  the  managers  are  Eng- 
lishmen and  have  nothing  to  do  with  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Were  the  burning  of  these  creameries 
done  as  reprisals,  as  the  result  of  "exasperation  past  endurance," 
as  it  has  been  put?  And  were  any  officers  in  control  of  these 
parties? 

A.  It  is  very  difficult  to  say,  because  many  of  these  officers  do 
not  wear  any  officer's  dress.  The  Black-and-Tan's  uniform  is  a  very 
mixed  sort  of  thing.  According  to  Irish  witnesses  themselves,  some 
of  them  have  been  done  without  officers  and  some  of  them  have  been 
done  with  officers. 

Of  course,  in  regard  to  reprisals,  that  excuse  hardly  holds  against 
cooperative  creameries,  which  are  owned  by  people  of  all  political 
opinions.  The  manager  of  the  cooperative  creamery  at  Limerick 
was  an  Englishman,  a  Protestant,  with  very  little  interest  in  Irish 
politics.  He  went  there  to  start  cooperation  in  Limerick.  I  went  to 
interview  him,  and  he  said  that  he  and  his  assistant  were  taken  out 
of  their  house  and  beaten;  and  they  told  him  that  his  creamery 
would  be  fired.  And  he  said  he  was  an  Englishman;  and  they  said 
he  had  no  business  in  Ireland  starting  the  cooperative  movement. 

With  regard  to  compensation :  even  when  the  owner  appeals  to 
the  courts  and  is  given  damages  against  the  town  under  the  Mali- 
cious Injuries  Act,  of  course  the  people  do  not  pay.  They  cannot 
pay.  And  in  addition  the  British  Government  is  withholding  cer- 
tain grants  that  it  is  not  paying.  No  matter  what  the  reason  or  ex- 
cuse is,  the  present  situation  simply  means  the  destruction  of  Irish 
industries  for  the  moment. 


587 


ENGLAND  DESTROYS  IRISH  TRADE  BY  STOPPING 
SUPPLIES 

With  regard  to  Irish  trade  as  apart  from  Irish  industry,  the  two 
great  difficulties  have  been  the  stoppage  of  supplies  from  England 
and  the  burning  of  business  premises. 

With  regard  to  the  stoppage  of  supplies  from  England,  the  evi- 
dence is  this:  we  were  shown  certain  letters  from  English  firms  in 
reply  to  orders  from  Irish  firms,  stating  that  they  could  not  supply 
Irish  firms;  they  were  sorry.  And  of  course  in  September  and  Oc- 
tober there  were  notices  in  English  post-offices  saying  that  no  one 
could  send  a  parcel  to  Ireland,  not  even  personal  parcels  to  Ireland. 
And  of  course  that  is  ruinous  to  trade. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  What  articles  does  Ireland  import 
from  England  in  the  way  of  raw  material? 

A.  Ireland  does  not  import  much  raw  material.  She  imports 
manufactured  articles. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Clothing  is  imported  also? 

A.     The  heavier  clothing,  the  woolen  clothing  is,  of  course. 

Mrs.  Robinson:  I  know  that  in  the  case  of  Belfast,  there  has  been 
a  very  great  boycott  of  the  leading  articles  imported  from  England 
and  the  English  stores  which  sell  them,  which  of  course  is  ruining 
the  English  trade. 

The  Witness:  Quite.  And  in  addition  the  English  Government 
is  preventing  free  trade  relations  between  Ireland  and  other  coun- 
tries. 

BLACK-AND-TANS  BURN  AND  LOOT  BUSINESS 
PREMISES 

Then  with  regard  to  the  burning  of  business  premises,  there  is  a 
large  bakery  owned  by  a  man  named  Daly  and  a  large  tannery 
owned  by  a  man  named  White  which  we  visited.  These  had  been 
burned  by  the  Black-and-Tans, — the  lower  floor  soaked  with  petrol 
and  set  afire  to,  and  about  seven  hundred  pounds'  damage  done.  A 
part  of  the  tannery  that  was  dry  did  burn;  the  rest  was  saved.  Mr. 
White  was  wanting  to  increase  his  premises,  and  of  course  he  could 
not  do  this. 

Then  about  the  looting  of  shops.  In  Gal  way  the  Black-and-Tans 
used  to  hold  up  the  public  houses  and  get  what  drink  they  wanted 
merely  by  threatening  to  burn  the  place  down.  We  went  to  a  public 
house  there  called  The  Bow,  which  is  just  out  of  Gal  way  on  the 
north  road.  There  there  is  just  a  girl  and  her  mother  in  charge. 
And  the  police  came  one  night  after  dark  and  locked  up  the  girl 
and  her  mother  in  a  room  and  took  what  drink  they  wanted.  And 
then  of  course  they  took  pot  shots  at  the  glasses  and  windows. 


588 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  Is  there  any  part  of  this  loss  in- 
sured? 

A.  Yes,  of  course,  but  the  English  companies  will  not  pay  on 
this  damage  at  the  present  time  unless  it  is  especially  covered  by 
special  insurance.  They  will  not  pay  under  the  ordinary  policy. 
You  must  insure  against  malicious  injuries.  The  curious  thing  is 
that  the  insurance  rate  against  damage  by  Sinn  Fein  is  about  one- 
half  what  insurance  against  damage  by  the  Crown  forces  is. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  So  the  business  house  must  take  out  two 
policies,  one  to  protect  it  against  loss  from  the  Sinn  Fein,  and  an- 
other policy  to  protect  it  against  loss  from  the  Crown  forces? 

A.     Yes,  but  one  can  say  which  he  wants. 

Q.  And  if  he  wants  to  insure  against  loss  by  the  Crown  forces, 
he  must  pay  twice  as  much  as  against  loss  by  the  Sinn  Fein  forces? 

A.     Yes,  exactly. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  do  the  business  houses 
take  out  insurance  against  loss  by  Sinn  Fein? 

A.  Most  of  them  take  out  a  general  insurance  policy.  Some 
houses  in  the  north  take  out  insurance  against  loss  from  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.  That  would  indicate  that  some  of  these  buildings  were  burned 
by  Sinn  Fein? 

A.  I  am  just  thinking  of  a  case  in  point,  where  people  who  were 
very  notoriously  with  the  English  force,  people  who  were  in  touch 
with  them,  or  people  who  were  giving  information  against  Sinn 
Fein,  they  were  burned  down  too.  And  of  course  there  is  cattle 
raiding  and  destruction  in  that  sort  of  way.  If  they  wanted  to  take 
it  against  you  for  giving  information  against  Sinn  Fein,  they  could 
take  it  out  of  you  in  that  way  too. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Do  you  know  of  any  case,  of  that 
kind? 

A.  I  am  just  thinking  of  a  man  in  the  west  who  had  English 
officers  staying  with  him.  He  was  a  very  prominent  English  sym- 
pathizer, one  who  was  formerly  known  as  an  absentee  landlord. 
And  his  cattle  were  driven  away. 

Q.     Was  that  known  to  be  done  by  Sinn  Feiners? 

A.     Well,  obviously  it  would  not  be  done  by  the  Crown  forces. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  case  of  which  you  know  where  the  damage 
was  done  by  Sinn  Fein? 

A.  Yes,  that  was  the  only  case  in  the  south.  But  in  the  north — 
I  will  speak  of  that  later. 

Then  there  was,  in  addition  to  this  looting,  the  smashing  of  win- 
dows in  business  houses.  And  that  made  it  difficult  for  business  to 
be  carried  on.  And  then,  of  course,  if  there  was  a  row — a  pitched 
battle  between  the  Crown  forces  and  the  Sinn  Feiners,  business 
houses  would  set  the  worst  of  that  too. 


589 


DESTRUCTION  OF  IRISH  PROSPERITY  A  PART  OP 
ENGLISH  CAMPAIGN  AGAINST  SINN  FEIN 

That  pretty  well  covers  what  I  had  to  say  with  regard  to  the  eco- 
nomic blockade  and  its  effects  on  industry,  business,  and  trade. 
But  I  don't  want  to  misuse  the  word  blockade,  to  make  it  sound  as 
if  there  had  been  a  formal  declared  blockade.  It  is  much  more  the 
cumulative  effect  of  a  policy  of  preventing  the  young  men  from 
working,  and  preventing  Dail  Eireann  from  building  up  the  indus- 
trial prosperity  of  Ireland.  And  the  military  authorities  have  struck 
everywhere  at  the  business  houses  and  the  mills  as  a  part  of  clear- 
ing Sinn  Feiners,  as  they  say,  out  of  the  country.  That  is  all  of 
that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Thank  you  very  much.  And  what 
next? 

A.  I  was  wondering  if  you  wanted  me  to  go  to  the  subject  of 
the  raids. 

TERRIBLE   SUFFERING   FROM    UNEMPLOYMENT 
AND  DESTRUCTION  OF  INDUSTRIES 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Before  we  leave  industry,  would  you  tell  us 
what  you  saw  of  the  effects  of  the  destruction  of  industry  in  the 
form  of  suffering  and  unemployment  that  would  make  the  people 
need  relief?     Were  those  effects  really  apparent? 

A.  Yes,  I  am  glad  you  mentioned  that.  I  should  have  put  it  in. 
The  unemployment  of  the  men  of  Limerick  was  quite  terrible.  One 
of  the  large  employers  said  it  was  very  different  from  the  lack  of 
demand  for  clothing,  which  was  shutting  up  the  mills  in  the  big 
towns.  Their  trouble  was  that  they  could  not  get  the  necessary  ma- 
terials, and  so  whole  factories  had  to  shut  down.  Then,  of  course, 
there  was  a  tremendous  number  of  railway  men  who  were  unem- 
ployed, amounting  to  three  thousand,  I  believe.  Of  course  the  Eng- 
lish Railwaymen's  Union  did  not  recognize  what  is  called  the  unem- 
ployment strike,  and  they  would  not  pay  unemployment  insurance 
to  these  men.  And  that  left  it  to  the  national  railway  employees  of 
Ireland,  and  they  are  levying  upon  themselves  an  assessment  of 
eight  and  sixpence  a  week  to  help  these  men.  That  may  not  seem 
very  much,  but  the  wages  you  get  in  America  are  much  larger  than 
theirs,  and  it  was  an  enormous  amount  to  those  men. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Do  you  know  what  the  weekly  wage  is? 

A.  I  think  that  the  minimum  rate  for  the  railroad  men  under 
the  recent  agreement  was  sixty-eight  shillings. 

Q.     And  they  levied  on  that  eight  shillings  and  sixpence? 

A.     Yes,  eight  shillings  sixpence. 

Q.     Commissioner  Thomas:    Would  it  be  possible  now,  since  a 


590 

map  has  come,  to  indicate  on  that  the  area  most  seriously  affected 
and  needing  relief  on  account  of  these  various  measures  you  have 
described? 

A.  Well  (indicating  map)  here  is  Limerick  and  here  is  Galway. 
I  visited  around  here,  and  then  here,  and  through  to  Cork.  Kerry 
was  quiet  when  I  was  down.  All  those  terrible  things  that  have  hap- 
pened there  have  happened  since.  West  Galway  was  one  of  the 
poorest  parts  of  Ireland  formerly,  but  that  has  been  improved  since 
the  war  and  under  the  Land  Acts,  which  enabled  them  to  get  their 
own  buildings.  Now,  the  burning  of  their  hay  throws  them  back  to 
the  pre-war  poverty,  which  is  a  very  terrible  thing.  Then  Limerick, 
which  has  always  been  one  of  the  prosperous  parts  of  Ireland.  They 
are  very  bad  off  in  Clare,  because  Clare  is  very  poor  land.  The 
stones  are  very  near  the  surface.  You  really  scratch  your  living  off 
the  surface  of  the  land.  Then,  of  course,  to  burn  the  hay  of  Lim- 
erick is  to  destroy  the  agricultural  resources  of  the  richest  part  of 
the  country.  I  believe  there  has  also  been  a  very  large  amount  of 
hay  burned  around  Cork  and  Tipperary  and  Kildare. 

May  I  say  about  the  railways,  while  we  have  the  map  here?  Here 
is  Galway  and  here  is  Limerick  (indicating  on  map).  And  here  is 
Dublin.  And  then,  in  order  to  get  from  Galway  to  Limerick,  you 
had  to  cross  to  Dublin  and  then  come  back  to  Galway. 

INHUMANE   CONSEQUENCES   OF   BURNING   OF 
CREAMERIES 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  ask,  while  we  have  the  map, 
if  these  forty-five  creameries  which  were  burned  were  pretty  well 
distributed  all  over  Ireland? 

A.  Yes,  they  were  pretty  well  distributed  all  over  the  south  and 
west  of  Ireland.  Creameries  have  been  burned  here,  and  here,  and 
here  (indicating),  and  at  Mallow,  where  the  big  milk  condensing 
factory  was.  That  was  a  pretty  bad  burning  from  the  humane 
point  of  view,  because  people  in  Europe  are  dying  for  want  of  milk. 
I  was  talking  to  one  of  the  men  at  the  head  of  that  works,  and  he 
said  they  could  not  get  the  machinery  together  again  to  replace  it 
inside  of  the  next  ten  years. 

Q.     How  many  years? 

A.     Ten  years. 

Mr.  Manly:    Ten  years! 

The  Witness:  I  think  the  export  trade  has  been  affected  most. 
Another  difficulty  is  that  there  is  now  a  very  large  amount  of  raw 
milk  left  on  the  hands  of  the  farmers.  Because  of  the  creameries, 
the  farmers  had  concentrated  on  providing  milk  for  the  creameries. 
And  that  was  a  very  well  worked  up  trade.  Now  they  cannot  stop 
the  cows  producing  milk,  and  this  is  wasted.  Of  course,  the  towns 
in  Ireland  need  milk,  but  often  they  are  not  near  the  dairy  centers. 


591 

Q.  Then  you  have  a  surplus  of  milk  in  the  country  and  a  famine 
in  the  cities? 

A.  Yes.  quite.  1  expect  places  like  Dublin  and  Cork  are  suffer- 
ing terribly.  But  the  country  towns  have  a  surplus  of  milk,  which 
they  cannot  use. 

I  was  just  getting  back  to  the  raids. 

POSITION,  COST,  AND  ORGANIZATION  OF  BRITISH 
FORCES  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Perhaps  you  can  tell  of  the  organ- 
ization of  the  military  before  you  come  to  the  raids. 

A.  Yes,  yes.  With  regard  to  the  organization  of  the  military, 
it  is  of  course  difficult  to  get  exact  information.  The  military  ques- 
tion is  one  of  the  most  difficult  of  all.  And  this,  of  course,  is  the 
difficulty  with  regard  to  English  public  opinion.  After  all,  the 
armed  forces  of  the  Crown  in  Ireland  are  our  own  men.  And  any 
English  audience  to  which  you  talk  will  say,  "Well,  my  husband  is 
there."  And  as  far  as  that  is  concerned,  my  own  brother,  a  boy  of 
eighteen,  was  stationed  at  Ennis  during  the  latter  part  of  the  war. 
Therefore,  I  want  to  be  fair  in  dealing  with  this  question.  It  is 
difficult  to  make  English  people  understand  it.  And  it  is  also  im- 
portant for  people  who  are  looking  at  matters  not  from  the  stand- 
point of  any  country  or  any  government,  but  from  the  human  point 
of  view,  to  realize  that  the  military  authorities  in  Ireland  are  con- 
centrating on  propaganda  amongst  these  men,  which  is  producing 
a  mentality  that  makes  them  believe  that  every  Irishman  is  a  mur- 
derer. If  you  are  going  to  consider  the  Irish  problem,  it  seems  to 
me  that  you  cannot  get  away  from  the  mentality  of  the  English  sol- 
diers who  are  over  there. 

First  of  all,  the  British  Government,  in  answer  to  a  question  that 
was  asked  in  Parliament,  said  it  was  spending  on  the  military  or- 
ganization in  Ireland  I  that  is,  of  course,  apart  from  the  Black-and- 
Tans  and  the  police),  one  and  one-half  million  pounds  a  month, 
which  at  the  par  rate  of  exchange  would  come  to,  I  believe,  about 
S90,000,000  a  year.  That  means  that  there  is  an  enormous  number 
of  soldiers  in  Ireland. 

Q.     They  are  not  Black-and-Tans  entirely,  either? 

A.  No,  I  am  not  considering  the  Black-and-Tans;  they  are  not 
considered  soldiers.  Apart  from  that,  there  is  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary, which  was  always  there.  The  Royal  Irish  Conslabularv 
has  always  been  to  an  Irishman  an  armed  garrison  force.  The 
British  Government  always  sent  the  southern  Irishmen  to  the  north. 
and  the  northern  Irishmen  to  the  south.  There  has  been,  as  you 
know,  a  large  number  of  resignations  from  that  organization.  Then 
the  British  Government  has  organized  the  Black-and-Tans.  The 
officers   of   the   Black-and-Tans   wear   black    Sam    Brown    belts    and 


592 

black  caps  and  black  ties, — if  they  wear  any  uniform;  which,  with 
the  regular  tan  clothing  of  the  British  army  which  they  wear,  led  to 
their  being  called  Black-and-Tans.  Like  other  cases  of  half-breeds, 
they  combine  all  the  defects  and  none  of  the  virtues  of  either  sol- 
diers or  police.  There  were  two  divisions  of  these.  One  was  a  fly- 
ing column  division.  When  we  were  motoring  in  West  Galway,  we 
would  come  across  lorry  loads  of  these  men  drawn  up  along  the 
roadside  asleep.  They  were  not  confined  to  barracks.  They  were 
sent  out  in  flying  columns  and  sent  on  from  place  to  place,  and  got 
their  rest  along  the  roadside.  That  was  to  prevent  them  from  get- 
ting in  touch  with  the  population,  as  the  troops  who  are  quartered 
in  one  place  often  do.  Then  there  were  also  those  which  were  con- 
fined to  operations  around  barracks.  They  are  the  army  auxiliary 
force,  who  get  very  good  pay,  one  pound  seven  a  day,  I  believe. 
They  enlist  as  sergeants.  They  do  the  intelligence  work  and  do  the 
raids  on  the  better  class  people,  like  the  raid  on  Professor  Carroll 
in  Dublin. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  They  are  under  the  military  rather  than 
the  police,  are  they? 

A.  Well,  of  course  they  are  under  the  military  now.  Even  the 
police  are  now.     But  they  are  directly  under  the  military. 

GOVERNMENT    DELIBERATELY    INCITES    TROOPS 
TO  VIOLENCE 

These  men  are  living  under  very  bad  conditions.  We  were  told 
that  a  barracks  in  Dublin  that  would  ordinarily  hold  one  hundred 
fifty  men  was  now  crowded  with  several  times  that  many.  It  is  im- 
possible for  them  to  live  very  regular  lives.  And  besides  this,  they 
are  kept  in  a  very  excited  state  of  mind.  There  is  a  publication 
called  The  Weekly  Summary  given  by  the  British  Government  to 
the  Black-and-Tans  in  Ireland,  and  it  purports  to  give  a  list  of  all 
of  the  crimes  of  Sinn  Feiners  against  the  Government.  It  is,  of 
course,  a  deliberate  incitement  to  violence.  Copies  of  this  have 
been  produced  in  the  House  of  Commons,  and  the  Government  has 
been  very  severely  criticized  about  it,  but  without  much  result. 

Q.  You  say  it  is  a  direct  incitement  to  violence.  What  is  pub- 
lished in  it? 

A.  Well,  you  see,  Sinn  Fein  is  not  supposed  to  have  any  arms 
in  its  possession  at  all.  You  are  liable  to  arrest  if  you  are  found 
with  them.  For  this  there  is  a  continuous  search  for  arms.  And 
on  the  other  hand,  there  is  a  continuous  carrying  of  arms  from  one 
place  to  another, — there  is  an  "arms  hunger"  on  the  part  of  the 
Sinn  Fein  population.  For  that  reason  you  get  ambushes  to  get 
arms.  The  individual  murders  of  policemen  and  the  finding  of 
arms  are  all  printed  in  this  Weekly  Summary  with — from  the  Brit- 
ish point  of  view — appropriate  comments. 


593 


REMOVAL    OF    BRITISH    FORCES    FROM    IRELAND 
THE  CONDITION  PRECEDENT  TO  PEACE 

The  position  of  the  British  soldiers  in  Ireland  is  very  difficult. 
They  are  not  fighting  an  enemy  that  they  can  see.  They  are  in  a 
hostile  atmosphere.  They  are  fighting  everything  around  them.  I 
don't  know  whether  it  would  he  of  interest  or  not,  but  1  have  brought 
with  me  a  cutting.  It  was  sent  to  me  by  a  service  man  on  Decem- 
ber 4,  1920.  It  is  therefore  very  recent,  and  it  seems  to  me  to  give 
the  psychology  of  the  British  soldiers  now  in  Ireland  very  well: 

"Only  those  who  have  experienced  the  thrill  of  patrol  work  and 
raids  in  Ireland  can  realize  the  strain  on  the  nerves.  At  any  second 
we  may  meet  an  active  antagonist.  In  Ireland  the  enemy  is  a 
shadow.  A  sinister  death,  rarely  seen  until  it  is  too  late  to  advance 
or  retreat,  may  lie  just  around  the  corner.  Many  of  our  fallen  com- 
rades never  saw  the  enemy  that  shot  them  down.  Any  civilian  who 
passes  you  by  may  swing  around  on  his  heel  and  surprise  you.  The 
enemy  has  no  position  to  assail,  no  uniform  to  identify  him,  and  no 
rules  of  warfare  to  be  observed.  There  are  no  rest  periods.  We 
are  liable  to  be  shot  on  duty  or  off  duty.  A  crowd  at  a  football 
match  suddenly  begins  to  spit  bullets  at  us.  We  are  like  targets 
there  in  our  khaki.  If  we  return  the  fire,  it  is  claimed  that  every 
person  wounded  is  an  innocent  person  wilfully  put  to  death  by  the 
armed  forces  of  the  Crown."  * 

That  is  the  situation.  Of  course,  the  Irish  cannot  fight  openly 
because  there  is  three  million  population  against  an  Empire.  And 
then,  of  course,  the  soldiers  are  in  a  disadvantageous  position.  I 
remember  that  my  brother  said,  when  he  was  stationed  at  Ennis  be- 
fore things  were  so  bad,  that  if  a  soldier  were  set  upon  in  any  way, 
they  were  ordered  to  go  around  the  streets  knocking  people  off  the 
pavement,  and  that  sort  of  thing.  The  removal  of  the  soldiers  is 
the  condition  precedent  to  any  kind  of  peace.  For  of  course,  while 
British  soldiers  are  being  shot,  you  cannot  do  anything  with  British 
public  opinion.  Of  course  the  Sinn  Feiners  say,  "Well,  if  British 
soldiers  were  not  getting  shot,  you  would  say  we  are  all  happy,  and 
would  pay  no  attention  to  us."  The  whole  thing  is  a  very  vicious 
circle,  as  always  happens  when  you  resort  to  violence. 

I  tried  to  get  in  touch  with  some  of  the  parents  of  the  victims. 
You  cannot  always  do  it,  because  many  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabu- 
lary are  single  men  stationed  in  the  barracks.  But  in  our  hotel  in 
Limerick  we  got  in  touch  with  a  mother  whose  boy  of  eighteen  had 


1  The  reference  obviously  is  to  the  Croke  Park  football  match,  when 
Crown  forces  without  provocation  tired  upon  the  spectators,  killing  14  and 
wounding  60.  The  soldier  here  is  expressing  the  British  Government's 
justification  for  this  massacre,  which  is  disproved  by  the  evidence  collected 
on  the  spot  by  the  British  Labor  Commission  and  the  testimony  of  Thomas 
Nolan  herein  contained. 


594 

been  shot  in  one  of  these  raids.  The  English  authorities  said  that 
the  leaders  were  known  and  would  be  punished.  I  think  her  reply 
deserves  to  be  quoted.  She  said:  "I  don't  want  Irish  boys  to  be 
punished  for  what  happened  to  my  boy.  I  want  the  fathers  to 
settle  and  put  an  end  to  this  horrible  work." 

EMPLOYMENT  OF  SPIES  AND  "AGENTS 
PROVOCATEURS" 

In  addition  to  this,  there  are  spies  and  agents  provocateurs.  We 
were  held  up  in  West  Galway  and  got  away  by  saying  that  we  were 
English.  You  dare  not  keep  a  scrap  of  paper  around.  The  diffi- 
culty of  the  spy  system  is  this:  the  intelligence  service  of  Sinn  Fein 
is  almost  perfect,  because  they  are  dealing  in  a  country  where  every- 
body is  sympathetic.  But  there  are  now  a  great  number  of  British 
spies  in  Ireland  who  are  tracking  down  the  men  on  the  run, — that 
is  to  say,  the  men  who  cannot  sleep  at  home  at  nights  because  they 
are  wanted  by  the  police.  And  so  there  are  an  enormous  number 
of  people  engaged  in  holding  down  Ireland.  And  one  of  the  argu- 
ments we  are  using  to  the  taxpayers  is  that  we  are  paying  for  this 
enormous  body  of  men  who  are  engaged  in  holding  up  the  policy 
of  Sir  Edward  Carson. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams :  Are  you  sure  that  these  agents  pro- 
vocateurs do  exist? 

A.  Mrs.  Robinson :  I  think  I  have  with  me  a  copy  of  a  docu- 
ment that  was  widely  circulated  in  Belfast  saying  that  if  informa- 
tion was  given  about  people  who  were  wanted,  a  large  reward  would 
be  given.     I  have  seen  these  notices  myself. 

Q.  Of  course  that  would  not  be  the  employment  of  agents  pro- 
vocateurs. 

A.  Miss  Wilkinson:  I  was  thinking  of  special  agents  employed 
for  this  purpose.  In  our  hotel  we  met  a  group  of  officers  who  were 
engaged  in  this  work;  and  they  were  very  bitter  because  they  said 
enough  information  had  not  been  sent  in.  But  the  British  intelli- 
gence service  is  now  being  perfected,  I  believe,  by  the  Government. 

"MURDERS"  OF  POLICE  USED  BY  GOVERNMENT 
TO  JUSTIFY  OPPRESSION  OF  IRELAND 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Miss  Wilkinson,  did  you  obtain  while  in 
Ireland,  or  is  there  available  as  far  as  you  know,  any  figures  re- 
garding the  number  of  ambushes  or  the  killings  of  constables?  That 
is,  killings  under  circumstances  such  as  are  described  in  that  cir- 
cular by  this  soldier? 

A.  No,  I  don't  think  there  is  any  list,  because  they  are  taking 
place  every  day.  The  difficulty  is  that  a  lot  of  killing  is  going  on 
that  does  not  come  to  light.     Somebody  is  being  killed  all  the  time. 


595 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    On  both  sides;? 

A.  Yes,  constables  are  being  murdered  and  Sinn  Feiners  are  be- 
ing murdered  all  tbe  lime.  It  would  be  very  difficult  to  get  figures 
except  from  the  statements  issued  by  the  British  Government. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  British  Government  does  issue  such  docu- 
ments, does  it  not? 

A.  Yes.  but  the  Sinn  Feiners  claim  they  are  not  true.  And  the 
Sinn  Feiners  issue  statements  that  the  British  Government  says  are 
not  true.  I  have  a  statement  issued  by  the  English.  There  were 
something  like  five  hundred  murders  up  to  November.  1920.  The 
British  Government  claim  that  something  like  five  hundred  indi- 
vidual constables  and  military  had  been  killed.  There  is  a  differ- 
ence between  the  British  Government  figures  and  the  Sinn  Fein 
figures,  because  the  British  Government  includes  people  killed  in 
an  ambush,  while  the  Sinn  Fein  count  only  individuals  killed  sepa- 
rately. They  count  persons  killed  in  an  ambush  as  killed  in  an  act 
of  war. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  were  the  dates  covered  by  this  five 
hundred? 

A.     From  the  beginning  of  the  killings  to  November,  1920. 

Mrs.  Robinson :  Those  figures  have  been  published  by  the  Brit- 
ish Government.     To  date  I  think  there  are  about  six  hundred. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  In  your  report  you  say  that  they 
count  lives  lost  in  the  storming  of  barracks  as  not  murdered  because 
they  are,  killed  in  an  act  of  war. 

A.  Mrs.  Robinson:  Yes,  but  our  Government  does  not  take  that 
attitude.     It  depends  upon  the  point  of  view. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  not  Lloyd  George  say  that  there  was  a  con- 
dition of  war  there? 

A.     Yes,  but  that  is  not  the  accepted  idea. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  The  British  Government  figures  in- 
clude everybody  killed  in  Ireland? 

A.     \es.  on  their  own  side. 

Mr.  Manly:  Yes,  and  those  figures  are  also  disputed  by  Sinn 
Fein  as  to  the  total  number. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  is  quoted  as  saying  only 
yesterday  that  if  the  British  people  knew  the  number  of  lives  lost  in 
Ireland,  there  would  be  a  very  greatly  aroused  public  opinion  in 
England  on  conditions  there.  Do  you  know  on  what  figures  he 
bases  that  statement? 

A.  The  Witness:  I  am  not  quite  so  sure  it  is  the  number  as  the 
conditions  in  which  it  is  done.  If  you  take  the  British  press,  it  is 
almost  quiet  on  the  subject  except  when  a  policeman  is  shot,  unless 
it  is  some  big  figure  like  Mayor  MacCurtain  who  has  been  shot. 
The  English  attitude  is  that  they  are  murders  in  the  case  of  our  men. 
but  only  the  killim>   of  trouble-makers  in  the  case  of  the  Irish.     11 


596 

you  had  American  soldiers  in  Mexico,  and  if  your  American  papers 
reported  that  your  men  were  being  sniped  from  behind  houses  and 
so  forth  by  these  murderers,  whom  we  will  call  X, — that  is  the 
opinion  that  is  being  crystallized  in  England  behind  Lloyd  George. 
That  is  why  there  is  no  great  popular  indignation  that  Britain,  who 
went  out  to  fight  for  the  rights  of  small  nations,  is  crushing  a  small 
nation  right  at  her  own  doors.  I  think  that  the  early  murders  did 
give  the  Carson  and  Lloyd  George  Government  the  very  excuse  from 
keeping  their  promises  that  they  wanted.  And  while  I  think  that 
English  opinion  at  last  is  being  aroused,  they  say  that  our  own  boys 
are  being  killed,  and  we  don't  think  that  our  own  boys  would  do 
the  terrible  things  that  you  say  they  do,  anyway.  And  we  say  that 
when  you  get  these  boys  together  and  talk  to  them  and  fill  up  their 
minds  with  the  idea  that  every  Irishman  is  a  murderer,  you  bring 
about  a  war  psychology,  and  then  you  get  the  atmosphere  that  makes 
it  possible  for  these  things  to  be  done.  And  that  is  why  I  say  you 
must  blame  the  Government  rather  than  the  boys  who  are  doing 
these  things. 

Mrs.  Robinson:  Irish  history  is  not  very  well  known  in  England. 
The  situation  in  Ireland  is  very  different  from  that  of  Scotland  or 
Wales.  You  will  find  Scotland  very  well  contented  with  the  Union 
and  Wales  very  well  contented.  You  will  find  in  England  very 
little  realization  of  the  condition  actually  existing  in  Ireland;  with 
the  result  that  even  though  Home  Rule  was  granted  in  1914,  it  was 
granted  without  a  realization  that  Ireland  wanted  to  express  her 
nationality  quite  apart  from  her  individual  rights.  This  Commis- 
sion must  take  into  consideration  that  there  is  a  very  large  section 
of  public  opinion  in  England  that  does  not  realize  what  Irish  his- 
tory means  and  what  Irish  aspirations  have  been.  And  a  very  large 
section  of  our  people  are  led  to  believe  that  the  trouble  in  Ire- 
land is  due  to  the  extreme  demands  of  a  very  small  part  of  the  Irish 
people  and  not  the  demands  of  the  Irish  nation  as  a  whole. 

SOLDIERS  IN  IRELAND  ARE  MERE  BOYS 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  What  was  your  impression  about 
the  age  of  the  soldiers? 

A.  Miss  Wilkinson:  Yes,  as  Mrs.  Robinson  said  this  morning, 
many  of  them  are  mere  boys.  Many  of  them,  like  in  the  camp  at 
Athlone,  are  very,  very  young.  Of  course  you  must  remember  that 
we  have  no  regular  army  in  England  now.  The  regular  army  was 
wiped  out  those  first  few  months  of  the  war.  It  is  the  boys  who  are 
being  sent  to  Ireland  now  because  the  old  army  is  dead. 


597 

GOVERNMENT  AWARE  OF  AND  ABLE  TO  STOP 
CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Is  there  any  doubt  that  the  Govern- 
ment is  cognizant  of  what  is  happening  in  Ireland? 

A.  Of  course  they  are.  But  the  reports  that  are  being  sent  are 
reports  that  are  given  from  the  official  point  of  view.  But  that  is 
no  excuse. 

Q.  No,  I  didn't  mean  whether  they  are  justified  or  not,  but 
whether  they  are  cognizant  of  what  is  going  on. 

A.  0,  I  am  perfectly  sure,  perfectly  sure.  And  they  could  stop 
it  if  they  wanted. 

CURFEW  A  COVER  FOR  DEPREDATIONS  OF 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  May  I  ask  another  question  before 
you  go  on?  \ou  said  that  they  are  increasing  the  intelligence  de- 
partment with  a  view  to  tracking  down  men  who  are  on  the  run. 
Now,  as  I  understand  it,  these  men  who  are  on  the  run  are  tending 
to  their  own  business  in  a  perfectly  orderly  fashion  during  the  day- 
time, but  at  night  are  liable  to  arrest  if  they  could  find  them.  Did 
you  get  any  evidence  as  to  why  this  was?  Is  that  a  terror  policy 
or  a  safety  policy?     Why  is  it  done? 

A.  I  don't  know  exactly  why  it  is  done.  For  instance,  in  Lim- 
erick the  councilman  Clonan,  who  is  a  member  of  the  trades  council 
and  city  council,  tends  to  his  business  in  the  daytime  and  is  ar- 
rested sometimes  at  night.  Of  course  you  must  understand  that 
when  any  kind  of  disturbance  happens,  curfew  is  immediately  placed 
on  the  town.  That  means  that  the  life  of  the  city  stops  immediately 
at  ten  o'clock,  and  everything  is  absolutely  dark.  And  that  gives 
the  Black-and-Tans  an  opportunity  to  do  exactly  what  they  like 
without  anything  happening  to  them.  If  they  do  anything,  the 
people  are  asked,  "Have  you  any  proof  that  it  was  the  Black-and- 
Tans?"  No,  of  course  not,  because  citizens  found  out  after  ten 
o'clock  without  a  permit  are  liable  to  be  shot.  And  it  is  of  course 
impossible  to  get  any  evidence  about  what  the  Black-and-Tans  do 
after  ten  o'clock. 

I  know  that  at  Limerick  we  were  going  out,  and  everything  was 
going  on  splendidly;  and  then  at  ten  o'clock  the  soldiers  went  on 
the  streets  and  you  were  challenged  by,  "Who  goes  there?"  Of 
course  that  is  the  point  of  the  British  soldier:  he  does  not  know 
whether  the  man  who  is  coming  toward  him  is  concealing  a  revolver 
to  shoot  him  unless  he  orders  him  to  put  his  hands  above  his  head. 
And  if  the  man  doesn't  do  it,  the  soldier  shoots.  And  that  has 
caused  the  shooting  of  a  large  number  of  innocent  people. 


598 

RESIGNING  BLACK-AND-TANS  REPUDIATE  SYSTEM 
OF  TERRORISM 

Q.  Did  you  find  any  evidence  of  any  Black-and-Tans  or  any 
other  Englishmen  resigning  because  they  will  not  continue  in  this 
situation? 

A.  Of  course,  a  soldier  cannot  resign.  He  must  obey  orders  or 
go  to  prison  or  be  shot.  Several  Black-and-Tans  have  resigned  and 
have  published  in  the  English  papers  the  reasons  for  their  resign- 
ing.1    They  say  their  position  is  simply  terrible. 

Q.  Of  course  soldiers  do  resign  as  conscientious  objectors,  or 
take  the  penalty  for  going  to  jail. 

A.  I  don't  know  how  it  is  in  America;  but  it  is  one  of  the  stand- 
ing jokes  in  England  about  the  man  who  joined  the  army  and  then 
sent  in  his  resignation.  In  the  English  army  if  you  join  the  army 
and  do  not  obey  orders,  you  will  be  jailed  or  shot. 

Q.  Of  course  it  is  a  variety  of  mutiny.  We  heard  that  the  Brit- 
ish troops  refused  to  embark  for  Russia,  but  we  have  not  heard 
about  anything  like  that  in  regard  to  Ireland. 

A.  Of  course  those  things  have  to  be  done  on  a  large  scale  to  be 
effective.  Of  course  if  the  British  soldiers  refused  to  go  to  Russia 
(Mrs.  Robinson  doubts  that),  they  did  it  because  they  had  no  heart 
in  the  fight  with  the  Russian  people.  But  the  British  soldier  goes 
to  Ireland  and  gets  caught  up  in  the  thing  and  loses  himself.  There 
were  a  couple  of  soldiers  who  came  to  us  on  the  train  for  sympathy 
because  they  heard  our  English  voices.  One  of  these  soldiers  was 
telling  us  what  he  would  do  to  the  people  at  Athlone  if  he  had  a 
chance  at  them.  And  he  was  engaged  to  an  Irish  girl!  You  do 
not  get  any  contact,  any  human  relationships  between  the  Irish 
people  and  the  British  soldiers.  And  that  is  why  they  are  moved 
from  place  to  place.  And  of  course  what  you  are  suffering  from  in 
Ireland  is  a  lack  of  human  understanding.  It  is  a  case  of  power 
and  undiluted  militarism. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman :  Did  you  find  any  soldiers  who  look 
at  this  affair  like  a  sport, — like  a  big  time  for  them? 

A.  Well,  there  are  one  or  two  stories  told  about  it,  but  I  put 
them  down  as  exaggerations;  because  when  people's  nerves  are  on 
edge  like  the  Irish  people's  nerves  are,  you  must  expect  some  exag- 
gerations. For  instance,  there  is  the  story  of  the  soldier  who  stood 
at  one  end  of  the  street  and  simply  potted  at  the  civilians  for  fun. 
We  did  not  find  any  eye-witnesses  about  that.  The  soldiers  that  we 
were  speaking  to  were  absolutely  sick  unto  death  of  the  whole  busi- 
ness. I  should  need  very  conclusive  evidence  before  I  believed 
that  there  is  very  much  fun  in  it  for  them. 

1  The  Black-and-Tan  is  nominally  a  constable,  and  hence  able  to  resign 
at  will. 


599 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  the  letters  which  show  the  reasons  for 
the  resignations  of  the  Black-and-Tans  which  were  printed  in  the 
British  papers  indicate  repudiation  of  the  whole  Black-and-Tan  sys- 
tem.1 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  It  is  a  condemnation  of  that  method  of  trying  to  restore  peace 
there? 

A.     Yes. 

Mrs.  Rohinson:  One  of  those  letters  I  saw  myself.  It  emphasized 
the  great  lack  of  discipline  among  the  Black-and-Tans.  There  was 
no  discipline,  no  rules  for  obeying  orders.  And  for  a  certain  type 
of  man  that  was  an  unendurable  position. 

Miss  Wilkinson:  And  of  course  a  great  deal  depends  upon  the 
type  of  man.  There  have  been  cases  where  the  military  have  been 
able  to  enforce  orders  on  the  Black-and-Tans.  Of  course  it  is  a 
great  deal  easier  to  say  that  the  men  have  broken  discipline,  and  I 
think  the  British  Government  is  taking  that  as  the  easiest  way  out. 

WHY   THE    RECRUITING    OF    BLACK-AND-TANS    IS 
EASY 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  makes  the  recruiting  of  Black- 
and-Tans  so  easy, — general  dissatisfaction  after  the  war  or  unem- 
ployment or  what? 

A.  Well,  of  course,  many  ex-sevice  men  come  back  and  are  un- 
able to  get  into  the  regular  army  because  the  British  army  has 
raised  the  standards  for  service.  And  of  course  there  is  no  such 
physical  standard  for  the  Black-and-Tans.  Many  service  men  have 
come  to  the  end  of  the  period  for  their  war-time  pay,  and  the  work 
in  Ireland  pays  well  and  the  food  is  good.  And  then  there  is  the 
love  of  adventure;  and  there  are  the  black  sheep  you  will  find  any- 
where who  always  love  to  fish  in  troubled  waters.  I  think  there  are 
a  great  many  people  who  are  looking  for  that  sort  of  thing;  for  you 
cannot  switch  off  a  man's  moral  nature  like  you  would  an  electric 
light.  You  have  produced  these  feelings  by  what  has  recently  hap- 
pened. You  have  brought  these  men  up  to  use  force  during  six 
years  of  war,  and  then  you  cannot  expect  them  to  switch  themselves 
off  in  a  moment. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  any  approximate  figures  as  to 
the  approximate  number  of  Irishmen  that  have  been  killed? 

A.     I  am  sorry  I  have  not. 

Q.     Is  it  more  than  six  hundred? 

A.     That  covers  only  the  English. 

1  The  more  recent  resignation  of  General  Crozier,  for  the  reasons  made 
public  by  him.  is  the  worst  possible  indictment  of  undisciplined  military 
frightfulness   in   Ireland. 


600 

Q.     I  thought  you  might  have  a  memorandum  there. 

A.  I  am  sorry  I  have  not.  I  thought  I  had  it  with  me  in  my 
notebook,  but  I  have  not. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Perhaps  Mr.  Manly  has  some  figures. 

A.  Mr.  Manly:  I  am  having  compiled  for  the  Commission  now 
a  detailed  statement  giving  names  and  circumstances  of  each  indi- 
vidual which  the  Irish  government  claims  has  been  murdered  by  the 
British  officials, — a  statement  which  is  complete.1 

Q.     Since  1916? 

A.  Yes,  since  1916;  and  giving  also  the  names  and  places  of  the 
creameries  burned,  and  the  arrests  without  warrant,  and  all  those 
other  facts. 

REMARKABLY  LITTLE  SEX  CRIME 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  May  I  ask  Miss  Wilkinson  a  question 
further?  You  mentioned  the  moral  deadening  which  I  am  sure  we 
all  feel  that  the  war  has  produced  in  the  natures  of  men;  for  of 
course  you  cannot  snap  off  men's  moral  natures  like  you  would  an 
electric  light.     Did  you  say  that  there  is  no  sex  crime  in  Ireland? 

A.  Well,  when  we  were  there,  we  made  very  careful  investiga- 
tion, and  we  found  no  cases  whatever  of  outrages  on  women.  We 
have  been  told  since  that  such  cases  have  occurred.  We  have  been 
told  by  Mrs.  Sheehy-Skeffington,  for  instance  (she  is  a  prejudiced 
witness,  of  course),  that  outrages  have  occurred  on  women.  But 
we  found  no  case  at  all  where  sexual  outrages  on  women  have  oc- 
curred. We  have  had  cases  where  women  have  been  roughly  han- 
dled, of  course.  And  even  that  would  happen  where  the  men  were 
sober;  although  such  cases  usually  happened  when  the  men  were 
drunk.  When  I  speak  of  rough  treatment,  I  mean  that  the  men  come 
in  the  middle  of  the  night,  and  the  women  are  driven  from  their 
beds  without  any  clothing  other  than  a  coat;  they  are  run  out  in 
the  middle  of  the  night  and  the  house  is  burned.  For  women  in 
delicate  health  that,  of  course,  is  terrible.  And  for  women  expect- 
ing children  the  mere  fact  of  men  coming  like  that  and  the  nervous 
tension  is  terrible,  of  course.  It  would  not  be  so  bad  if  the  raids 
took  place  in  the  daytime.  But  we  have  no  evidence  of  sexual  out- 
rages taking  place. 

Q.  It  is  a  very  remarkable  tribute  if  such  is  the  case.  We  have 
had  no  instances  of  it  from  either  side. 

A.  Of  course,  to  be  quite  fair,  the  Sinn  Feiners  themselves  be- 
gan the  cutting  of  girl's  hair.  When  in  certain  cases  the  Irish  girls 
went  out  in  the  evening  with  English  soldiers,  the  Sinn  Feiners  sig- 
nified their  disapproval  by  cutting  off  the  girls'  hair.  And  of  course 
in  some  cases  reprisals  were  taken  by  the  English  soldiers  cutting 


See  Exhibit  II. 


601 

off  the  hair  of  girls  who  would  not  go  out  with  them.  And  of 
course  strong  Irish  opinion  came  out  at  once  against  it,  and  it  was 
stopped. 

PARLIAMENTARY    SPEECHES    ON    IRISH    ATROCI- 
TIES BOYCOTTED  BY  ENGLISH  PRESS 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  the  facts  such  as  you  have  related 
been  discussed  in  detail  in  the  House  of  Commons? 

A.     By  means  of  questions  and  in   debate,  of  course. 

Q.  The  debates  have  been  pretty  full  on  the  Irish  question,  I 
suppose. 

A.  Yes,  Commander  Kenworthy  did  take  that  young  girl  who 
was  shot,  I  believe,  and  she  gave  her  evidence  before  a  select  com- 
mittee in  a  committee  room  in  the  House  of  Commons.  But  there 
has  never  been  anything  like  the  political  situation  we  have  in 
England  before.  For  the  first  time  there  is  no  effective  opposition 
in  the  British  Parliament.  Mr.  Lloyd  George  got  an  overwhelming 
majority  behind  him.  And  of  course  very  many  other  questions 
than  the  Irish  question  come  in  when  there  is  any  division  on 
Ireland;  for  by  our  constitutional  custom,  when  the  cabinet  is  de- 
feated on  one  serious  issue,  the  Government  on  that  day  resigns. 
Well,  of  course,  that  puts  men  in  a  position  where  they  have  to  face 
the  question  whether  they  want  to  turn  the  Government  out.  And 
on  that  issue  the  Carsonites  have  held  the  Coalition  Government 
together,  so  that  you  get  only  Labor  and  the  Free  Liberals  discuss- 
ing when  these  matters  are  debated  in  the  House  of  Commons. 

Q.  We  have  seen  only  the  reports  of  Mr.  Asquith's  speech  on  the 
Irish  question,  and  possibly  a  few  questions  in  the  House  of  Com- 
mons.    But  there  have  been  other  speakers  also? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  a  very  large  number.  Mr.  Henderson  and  the 
leaders  of  the  Labor  Party  and  a  very  large  number  of  other  Lib- 
erals,— Mr.  C.  F.  G.  Masterman  and  Sir  John  Simon  and  other 
prominent  men.  I  don't  know  whether  you  read  the  English  Nation, 
but  there  was  an  analysis  in  the  English  Nation  of  the  space  given 
by  the  Harmsworth  and  Coalition  papers  to  the  speeches  given  on 
Ireland  to  the  space  given  to  any  other  question  that  might  come 
along.  You  see,  there  is  this  boycott  in  the  English  papers,  and  it 
is  difficult  to  get  people  to  realize  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  anything  of  the  interference  by 
Dublin  Castle  and  the  forces  under  their  control  with  the  newspaper 
reporters  in  Ireland? 

A.  We  did  not  see  it  personally,  but  of  course  we  did  hear  a 
great  deal  about  it.  especially  the  interference  with  Mr.  Hugh 
Martin. 

Q.     I  was  wondering  if  you  had  met  Mr.  Hugh  Martin? 


602 

A.  No,  I  did  not  meet  him  while  I  was  in  Ireland.  The  facts 
of  that,  of  course,  were  very  fully  published. 

Mr.  Manly:  They  have  not  been  published  very  fully  in  the  United 
States. 

Commissioner  Addams:  They  came  before  us  once. 

The  Witness:  I  would  rather,  if  I  may,  keep  to  the  things  I  have 
actually  seen. 

RAIDING  AND   BURNING  OF  HOUSES  AND   FARMS 

The  next  heading  is  raids.  In  this  connection  I  have  handed  in 
to  Mr.  MacDonald  a  large  number  of  photographs.  I  am  not  sure 
how  much  you  have  heard  about  this  already  from  the  other  wit- 
nesses. 

Commissioner  Addams:  But  those  things  you  have  seen  would  be 
interesting. 

The  Witness:  Well,  first  of  all,  in  Limerick. 

Q.     You  are  not  Irish? 

A.  Oh,  no;  I  am  from  Lincolnshire.  I  believe  I  have  some 
Irish  blood  from  somewhere,  but  it  happens  to  be  Orange.  With 
regard  to  Limerick.  Of  course,  one  has  to  realize  that  for  each  case 
that  we  investigated,  a  reason  was  given  by  the  English  press  for  it. 
That  is  to  say,  it  was  in  the  nature  of  a  reprisal  for  some  damage 
done.  Brennan's,  near  Limerick,  I  have  already  described,  where 
the  house  and  hay  were  burned  down. 

Q.     What  had  the  Brennans  done? 

A.  Well,  the  two  sons  of  the  old  lady  were  on  the  run.  Miss 
Brennan  had  managed  the  farm  for  two  years.  The  military  were 
endeavoring  to  find  where  the  Brennan  boys  were,  because  the 
Brennans  were  important  people  from  the  Sinn  Fein  point  of  view. 
And  they  also  wanted  to  cut  off  their  supplies,  because  these  men 
were  being  supplied,  naturally,  from  their  own  farm.  The  Black- 
and-Tans  came  up  in  lorries  and  the  women  were  turned  out  on 
the  road  and  the  house  was  set  on  fire.  While  we  were  there  the 
house  was  still  smoldering  and  the  hay  was  still  burning. 

We  saw  a  number  of  similar  cases  in  Limerick.  A  man  named 
Cain,  a  man  with  eight  children,  was  taken  out  of  his  home,  and 
they  were  going  to  shoot  him,  but  his  wife  begged  for  his  life,  and 
they  did  not.  Then  when  we  went  on  to  Ennistymon  and  Lahinch, 
we  found  a  number  of  houses  burned  there.  At  Miltown-Malbay  a 
Captain  Lendrum  had  been  kidnapped,  and  the  soldiers  threatened 
reprisals  if  he  was  not  returned;  and  his  dead  body  was  laid  in  a 
coffin  and  returned  to  them.  Of  course  that  made  the  soldiers  very, 
very  excited.  The  Catholic  priest  tried  to  intercede,  but  the  soldiers 
were  out  of  control.  At  Lahinch  the  houses  were  only  left  as  a 
shell.     The  soldiers  went  along  the  street  and  burned  every  house, 


603 

as  the  small  photos  1  have  given  you  show.  Then  the  draper's  shop, 
which  had  no  connection  with  Sinn  Fein,  because  it  was  owned  by 
a  widow  who  was  keeping  her  son  in  college, — that  was  burned. 
Then  the  concert  hall  was  also  burned. 

Then  we  went  to  Ennistymon,  where  the  town  hall  was  burned 
and  a  large  amount  of  property  demolished.  That,  of  course,  was 
a  reprisal.  We  saw  a  great  many  farms  that  had  been  burned  in 
the  area  all  around  Miltown-Malbay,  and  Lisdoonvarna  also,  but 
that  we  did  not  see.  The  people  there  were  in  a  very  terrible  state. 
Thev  had  to  go  out  onto  the  seashore  because  of  the  destruction 
of  their  homes. 

BRITISH    MILITARY    SUPPRESS    PUBLIC    INQUIRY 
INTO  GALWAY  OUTRAGES 

At  Galway  what  had  happened  was  that  a  soldier  was  shot  at  the 
station.  The  Sinn  Fein  version  of  the  story  was  that  the  man  had 
been  shot  while  shooting  at  civilians.  I  don't  know.  But  anyway, 
this  soldier  named  Krumm  was  shot.  And  then  the  police  and  sol- 
diers went  out  that  night  and  took  three  men  out  of  their  homes, — 
one  was  named  Quirk,  and  two  others  were  taken  out  and  shot. 
Then  the  town  was  afraid  of  reprisals.  And  they  decided  to  hold 
a  public  inquiry  and  to  invite  the  police  to  give  evidence.  Mr. 
Louis  O'Day  was  the  solicitor  for  the  town,  and  led  the  case  for 
the  town. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  Who  decided  to  hold  an  inquiry? 

A.  The  municipal  authorities  of  Galway.  who  were  all  Sinn 
Fein,  of  course.  The  town  authorities  wanted  to  hold  this  inquiry. 
Of  course,  any  kind  of  assembly  in  Ireland  now  is  illegal  unless  it 
is  held  with  a  permit.  So  the  town  tried  to  hold  this  inquiry,  and 
soldiers  came  and  dispersed  the  assembly,  and  Mr.  Louis  O'Day 
would  not  go  home.  But  that  night  his  home  was  entered  and  de- 
molished; and  the  office  of  the  Galway  Express  was  demolished  be- 
cause it  had  printed  the  speech  which  Mr.  Louis  O'Day  had  in- 
tended to  deliver  at  this  investigation.  The  curfew  was  put  on  for 
three  weeks.  It  was  not  on  when  this  happened,  for  Galway  had 
been  very  quiet.  Following  this  there  were  a  number  of  reprisals 
in  Galway;  houses  were  burned,  and  Mr.  Walsh,  who  owned  the 
Old  Malt  House,  was  taken  out  and  killed  and  his  body  thrown  into 
the  river.1  I  mention  Galway  because  the  excuse  of  the  military 
authorities  is  that  they  cannot  get  a  jury  because,  of  course,  no 
Irishman  will  serve  on  an  English  jury.  But  here  was  a  case  where 
there  would  have  been  an  investigation  by  the  municipal  authori- 
ties of  the  town,  but  the  military  authorities  broke  it  up.  Then,  of 
course,  there  was  the  breaking  up  of  that  shop  called  the  Bal  in 
Galwav. 


See  direct  evidence  of  Miss  Nellie  Crave] 


60 1 


DEVASTATION   IN   TUAM 


Then  we  motored  to  Tuam.  Tuam  was  in  a  horrible  shape.  The 
houses  and  shops  were  destroyed.  I  had  an  interview  with  the 
Archbishop  of  Tuam.  He  does  not  want  his  name  mentioned  in  any 
way,  but  he  gave  me  certain  signed  statements  of  atrocities  on  civil- 
ian people,  some  of  them  by  the  military  and  Black-and-Tans  and 
some  by  R.  I.  C.  men.  Some  of  these  statements  are  in  the  hand- 
writing of  the  parties  making  them.  The  only  connection  that  the 
Archbishop  has  with  them  is  that  of  guaranteeing  their  authenticity; 
but  he  does  not  want  his  name  mentioned  with  them  in  any  way.1 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    Do  you  want  to  read  them  for  us? 

A.  Well,  they  are  very  long.  I  think  you  might  consider  them 
yourselves.     I  just  handed  those  in. 

Q.     Thank  you.     Were  they  all  in  the  town  of  Tuam? 

A.     They  were  all  in  the  town  of  Tuam. 

Q.     They  have  all  been  printed? 

A.  They  have  been  printed.  Of  course,  they  are  only  a  repeti- 
tion of  what  you  must  already  have  had.  Of  course  I  can  read 
them  if  you  want. 

NIGHTLY  TERRORISM  IN  CORK 

My  friend  and  I  went  to  Cork  the  night  after  the  burning  of  the 
city  hall.  We  had  always  come  just  after  things  had  occurred,  but 
we  got  to  Cork  at  a  very  tense  moment.  We  asked  the  driver  to 
drive  us  to  a  hotel  right  near  the  city  hall.  He  protested  violently, 
but  he  finally  took  us  to  the  Imperial  Hotel  right  near  the  city  hall. 
Curfew  was  at  ten  o'clock.  We  went  to  our  room.  According  to 
law,  no  one  is  supposed  to  have  a  light  or  look  out  of  the  window. 
But  we  turned  out  our  lights  and  wrapped  ourselves  up  and  went 
to  the  window. 

Q.     Major  Newman:    What  date  was  this,  Miss  Wilkinson? 

A.     This  was  October  eleventh,  I  think. 

Major  Newman:    That  is  near  enough. 

The  Witness:  First  of  all  there  came  the  soldiers  in  extended 
formation,  each  one  of  them  wearing  tin  helmets— the  shrapnel  hel- 
mets—and carrying  guns  with  fixed  bayonets.  And  then  came  three 
armored  cars  packed  with  soldiers.  And  then  after  them  came  a 
lorry  which  had  petrol  in  it,  I  suppose. 

Q.     Were  these  soldiers  or  Black-and-Tans? 

A.  As  far  as  we  could  gather,  these  were  soldiers.  There  may 
have  been  Black-and-Tans  among  them.  Everything  we  saw  was 
by  the  aid  of  a  searchlight  at  the  end  of  the  street.  But  those  who 
were  marching  were  all  soldiers.     They  went  on  by,  and  when  they 

1  The  documents  are  incorporated  in  Exhibit  III  hereof. 


605 

came  back  they  fired  into  the  houses  at  a  certain  level.  We  saw  the 
bullet  marks  the  next  morning.  That,  of  course,  is  a  terrible  thing. 
Many  people  have  been  killed  on  account  of  this  indiscriminate 
shooting  from  motor  lorries.  And  then  they  withdrew  to  the  city 
hall.  It  was  not  blown  up  that  night.  It  was  blown  up  later.  But  it 
was  an  extraordinarily  eerie  experience,  this  absolutely  quiet  street, 
and  then  these  soldiers  coming  along,  and  these  bullets  whizzing 
past  your  head.  This  had  happened,  it  was  said,  on  account  of  an 
ambush  of  police  or  soldiers  in  Barrett  Street,  a  poor  section  of  the 
city  where  the  houses  had  been  burned.  And  these  soldiers  were 
ambushed,  it  was  said,  from  these  burned  houses.  It  was  pretty 
terrible  altogether.  The  day  we  came,  the  military  had  broken  up 
several  shops. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  How  long  did  this  last, — your  per- 
sonal experience? 

A.  It  lasted  from  ten  until  three.  There  was  the  roaring  and 
the  shooting  and  the  calling  of  "Who  goes  there?" 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  there  any  retaliation  from  the  Irish 
people? 

A.  Not  that  we  could  see.  But  there  has  been,  of  course.  But 
that  is  not  usually  done  in  the  towns  but  usually  in  the  country,  be- 
cause it  leads  to  such  terrible  reprisals.  This  ambush  in  Barrett 
Street  was  cmite  unusual.  Usually  ambushes  take  place  in  the 
country. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  there  appear  to  be  officers  in 
command? 

A.  Yes,  of  course  there  were  officers  in  command.  This  was  a 
disciplined  motion  of  troops  through  Cork,  and  the  officers  were 
very  clearly  with  the  men.  As  far  as  I  know,  there  were  no  burn- 
ings that  night,  no  burnings  of  houses.  The  city  hall  has  been  blown 
up  since,  but  it  was  not  done  that  night.  One  could  just  go  along 
with  instances  like  that.  But  the  number  I  have  handed  in  rather 
includes  most  of  those  I  know  of. 

REPRISALS  VICTIMIZE  INNOCENT  WOMEN  AND 
CHILDREN 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams :  Those  were  your  own  personal  in- 
vestigations, of  course. 

A.  Yes,  my  own  personal  investigations.  What  is  happening,  of 
course,  is  that  whenever  ambushes  occur  or  soldiers  are  killed,  the 
reprisals  take  place  on  the  community  immediately.  What  happens 
is  that  the  women  and  children  are  thrown  out,  petrol  is  sprayed  on 
the  house,  and  it  is  burned.  One  could  just  go  on  multiplying  in- 
stances.    They  all  conform  to  the  same  type. 


606 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  you  discuss  with  any  of  the 
civilian  population  as  to  what  their  attitude  was  toward  the  strategy 
that  provokes  such  terrible  reprisals? 

A.  Yes,  we  tried  to.  But  of  course  you  must  realize  that  it  is 
difficult  to  get  information  in  Ireland  now.  And  then  we  were  Eng- 
lish, and  as  the  Irish  woman  we  talked  to  said,  she  made  it  very 
clear  that  she  was  not  going  to  give  in  because  her  house  had  been 
burned  down.  But  if  she  had  felt  very  different  she  would  not  have 
said  so  to  us.  Of  course,  that  is  the  difficulty  of  any  investigation 
in  Ireland.     It  is  hard  to  get  any  information  at  all. 

ATTITUDE  IN  BELFAST  TOWARD  ATROCITIES 

Mrs.  Robinson:  In  Belfast  I  was  met  with  the  statement  that  as 
far  as  the  north  is  concerned,  those  who  were  killed  were  mur- 
derers who  were  executed.  The  result  is  that  there  are  two  govern- 
ments in  Ireland,  two  sets  of  laws,  and  two  sets  enforcing  these 
laws.  And  the  police,  I  was  told,  were  simply  seeing  to  it  that  the 
Sinn  Fein  laws  could  not  be  carried  out.  It  is,  of  course,  a  most 
impossible  situation. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Are  there  any  questions  to  ask  Miss  Wil- 
kinson? 

SOUTHERN  UNIONISTS  RIDICULE  DANGER  OF 
CATHOLIC  USURPATION 

The  Witness:  I  will  then  go  on  to  the  question  of  the  Southern 
Unionists.  We  considered  that  very  important,  because  they  are 
three  hundred  thousand  of  the  population  in  the  south.  And  of 
course  at  one  stage  of  the  Ulster  agitation  great  play  was  made  of 
the  fact  that  an  Ulster  Parliament  alone  would  not  settle  the  matter, 
because  you  would  then  leave  these  Southern  Unionists  to  the  mercy 
of  the  Irish.     That  was  a  great  point  prior  to  1914. 

My  brother  happens  to  be  a  Wesleyan  minister,  and  he  gave  me 
introductions  to  Wesleyan  ministers  in  Ireland,  and  I  had  conversa- 
tions with  them.  And  I  found  that  they  entirely  ridiculed  the  idea 
that  the  southern  Unionists  were  in  any  danger  from  the  southern 
population.  And  if  you  take  Limerick  alone,  many  of  the  most 
prosperous  business  places  in  Limerick  are  owned  by  Unionists. 
And  this  minister  said  that,  generally  speaking,  the  Irish  people 
trusted  them  completely,  and  they  had  no  trouble  at  all.  And  gen- 
erally speaking,  they  were  much  more  fearful  of  what  the  Crown 
forces  would  do  than  what  the  Sinn  Fein  forces  would  do.  1  pressed 
him  to  know  what  he  meant,  and  his  wife  gave  this  example:  when 
they  were  firing  one  place,  there  was  a  Protestant  slore  just  oppo- 
site which  had  two  young  men,   assistants,   living  in   it    (which,  of 


607 

course,  is  the  custom  in  Ireland).  And  these  young  men  came  and 
tried  to  help  extinguish  the  flames.  And  the  British  soldiers  tried 
to  set  a  light  to  their  place  to  give  them  something  to  do  in  their 
own  premises,  although  it  was  owned  by  a  Unionist  and  a  Protes- 
tant. And  he  spoke  of  the  gun-running  at  Larne.  And  he  said  that 
gun-running  was  the  worst  mistake  that  the  Government  had  made; 
and  they  could  never  get  any  peace  in  Ireland  at  all  until  the  troops 
were  taken  out.  He  said  that  the  agitation  for  Home  Rule  was  mere 
sentiment  on  the  part  of  the  Irish,  because  there  was  no  reason  why 
thev  could  not  live  as  comfortably  within  the  Empire  and  united  to 
England  as  the  Scotch.  But  since  they  would  not,  the  only  reason- 
able thing  was  to  give  them  what  they  wanted. 

POLICY  OF  GOVERNMENT  IS  ALIENATING 
UNIONISTS 

He  gave  me  another  case  that  shows  how  the  policy  of  the  Gov- 
ernment is  turning  main  of  the  I  nionists  against  it.  There  were 
two  Protestant  business  men  whose  property  was  destroyed.  And 
one  of  them  wrote  a  letter  to  the  military  authorities  complaining 
of  the  destruction  of  his  property.  And  the  response  was  that  the 
officer  in  charge  on  that  occasion  was  not  quite  responsible  for  his 
actions  since  he  got  back  from  the  war.  that  he  was  a  little  bit 
queer.     And  that  was  the  only  answer  he  got! 

JUSTICE  OBTAINABLE  IN  SOUTH  ONLY  THROUGH 
SINN  FEIN   COURTS 

Then,  with  regard  to  the  courts  and  the  doing  of  justice.  The 
Sinn  Fein  courts  work  in  secret.  It  is  not  possible  to  get  justice  in 
the  southern  part  of  Ireland  at  all  except  through  the  Sinn  Fein 
courts.  At  the  time  of  the  death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwinev  the 
Prudential  Assurance  Company  was  actually  pleading  through  a 
Sinn  Fein  court.  I  asked  these  men  if  they  had  ever  been  in  a  Sinn 
Fein  court,  and  they  said  they  had.  One  of  them  had  a  case  of 
petty  theft  of  some  rugs  that  had  been  left  outside  his  place,  and 
he  appealed  to  the  Sinn  Fein  court  to  get  the  goods  restored.  They 
were  restored,  and  he  was  told  that  the  culprits  had  been  punished. 
All  of  the  Unionists  whom  I  saw  in  southern  Ireland  said  that  it 
was  impossible  that  home  rule  should  not  come  to  Ireland  now. 
They  were  very  bitter  over  what  they  called  the  selfishness  of  Ulster; 
that  when  they  saw  home  rule  was  coming,  they  simply  wanted 
Ulster  cut  off.  and  left  the  rest  of  them  to  their  fate.  That,  of 
course,  has  been  strongly  put  in  the  House  of  Lords  by  Lord  Mid- 
dleton.  They  feel  that  the  only  thing,  under  the  present  situation, 
is  to  give  Ireland  dominion  home  rule  as  soon  as  possible.  I  think 
that  that  is  all   on  that  subject. 


603 

NO  PERSECUTION  OF  PROTESTANTS  IN  CATHOLIC 
SOUTH 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  find  any  cases  of  religious 
intolerance  on  the  part  of  the  Catholic  majority  against  the  Protes- 
tant minority? 

A.  No.  That  is  surprising.  There  is  no  complaint  of  it  what- 
ever. The  Methodist  ministers  told  me  to  emphasize  that  whenever 
I  could,  that  the  Protestant  people  had  always  had  the  most  cour- 
teous treatment  from  the  Catholic  population.  I  think  that  is  im- 
portant, because  in  the  south  there  is  no  reason  to  fan  the  flame 
of  religious  intolerance.  Because,  of  course,  if  the  Unionists  had 
fanned  the  flame  of  religious  intolerance  there,  they  would  have 
been  the  ones  to  suffer.  I  interviewed  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Limerick, 
and  he  said  that  on  the  relief  committee  formed  for  these  unem- 
ployed workers  there  were  both  Catholics  and  Protestants,  and  that 
nobody  in  southern  Ireland  would  ask  you  your  religion  any  more 
than  they  would  in  England. 

IRISH  PARLIAMENT  ALONE  CAN  DECIDE 
RELATION  OF  IRELAND  TO  EMPIRE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  you  talk  to  any  Sinn  Feiners 
who  told  you  that  dominion  home  rule  would  not  be  enough? 

A.  I  don't  know  as  I  would  care  to  answer  that.  Sinn  Fein  de- 
mands, of  course,  complete  independence.  Many  of  them  demand 
to  leave  the  British  Empire  altogether.  Many  of  them  say  that  that 
is  the  maximum  demand,  and  that  there  might  be  something  be- 
tween that  and  the  utterly  inadequate  home  rule  bill  before  Parlia- 
ment now.  Does  that  answer  your  question?  I  don't  think  that  it 
is  our  business  to  say  what  Sinn  Fein  will  or  will  not  accept.  It 
is  a  matter  for  them  to  decide  among  themselves. 

Q.  Is  there  a  general  disposition  to  say  that  that  is  a  matter 
that  can  only  be  decided  by  the  Irish  Parliament? 

A.  Well,  that,  I  think,  is  very  certain.  I  don't  think  that  any 
real  peace  offer  can  be  made  from  England  or  from  Ireland  unless 
it  is  made  through  Dail  Eireann,  because  the  Irish  Government  is 
undoubtedly  the  de  facto  government  of  Ireland,  and  proposals  can 
only  come  through  that. 

Q.  May  I  ask  about  the  English  Government?  When  British 
Labor  made  resolutions  about  self-determination,  did  they  mean  ab- 
solute self-determination,  or  self-determination  within  the  British 
Empire? 

A.  I  should  say  that  British  Labor  is  divided  on  that  point;  the 
Socialists  and  the  left  wing  would  say  to  give  Ireland  absolute  right 
to  say  what  she  wanted.  But  there  is  a  very  considerable,  well-in- 
formed body  which  say  that  to  have  a  lot  of  little  nations  like  we 


609 

have  in  Central  Europe  and  Czecho-Slovakia,  none  of  whom  are 
strong  enough  to  maintain  their  independence,  is  simply  an  invita- 
tion for  a  stronger  power  to  be  their  master.  And  this  section  claims 
that  Ireland  would  be  far  safer,  and  that  we  would  be  far  safer, 
with  her  in  the  Empire.  We  do  not  hold  Canada  by  force,  and  we 
do  not  hold  Australia  by  force.  And  we  could  not  do  so.  They  re- 
main in  the  Empire  not  because  they  have  to,  but  because  they  want 
to  remain  in.  And  of  course,  the  unfortunate  thing  is  that  the 
policy  of  the  militarists  in  Ireland  and  the  policy  of  the  Ulsterites 
is  driving  the  Irish  people  to  want  to  go  out  of  the  British  Empire 
altogether.  But,  of  course,  whether  British  Labor  would  agree  to 
Ireland's  going  out  of  the  British  Empire,  I  could  not  say.  The 
general  trend  of  the  resolutions  is  largely  to  shelve  that  issue  and 
get  the  two  sides  together  and  get  something  done. 

REMOVAL  OF  TROOPS  THE  FIRST  STEP  TOWARD 
PEACE 

Q.  Chairman  Howe :  From  what  you  say,  I  take  it  that  the  first 
step  is  to  get  out  the  troops. 

A.  \es,  yes.  The  contribution  of  our  League  was  that  the  local 
government,  during  the  period  of  the  truce,  should  be  left  to  the 
local  bodies.  Where  Sinn  Fein  had  a  majority,  they  should  say; 
and  where  others  had,  they  should  say. 

It  might  be  well  to  say  here  that  the  Dublin  Metropolitan  Police, 
after  some  of  them  were  killed,  plead  for  their  own  disarmament. 
And  since  then  none  of  them  have  been  killed.  And  I  am  per- 
fectly sure,  apart  from  the  hatred  for  the  Black-and-Tans,  after  the 
British  soldiers  were  disarmed  they  would  be  quite  safe.  Of  course 
that  would  be  laughed  at,  I  am  afraid,  by  a  large  number  of  people. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Of  course,  what  it  amounts  to  is 
that  you  have  troops  and  Black-and-Tans  sent  to  preserve  law  and 
order  in  Ireland,  and  they  create  the  very  disorder  they  are  sent  to 
keep  down. 

A.  Yes,  but  of  course  that  happens  in  labor  disputes  too.  The 
police  that  are  sent  in  labor  disputes  to  quell  disorder  usually  create 
it.  That  always  happens  with  the  use  of  violence  and  physical 
force. 

TRAGIC   NEED   OF  RELIEF   FOR   VICTIMS   OF 
REPRISALS 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood :  In  the  districts  in  which  you  were,  you 
saw  a  very  considerable  need  for  relief  in  those  sections? 

A.  Well,  of  course,  the  need  for  relief  is  simply  something  ter- 
rible. I  was  in  touch  with  some  people  who  were  giving  out  the  re- 
lief.    These   people's  homes   are   destroyed.      Everything   they   had 


610 

was  destroyed.  The  only  thing  they  have  is  what  they  stand  up  in. 
They  have  no  hope  of  compensation,  because  if  they  apply  for  com- 
pensation, it  only  means  that  their  neighbors  have  to  pay  it.  The 
situation  is  terrible. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Is  relief  being  administered  by  this 
committee  in  the  north? 

A.  No,  that  is  purely  a  local  thing.  That  is  only  for  the  ex- 
pelled workers.  Generally  speaking,  it  is  administered  through  the 
Irish  societies. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Are  there  any  English  or  Scotch 
societies  administering  relief? 

A.  No.  Of  course  they  are  contributing  to  it  very  largely. 
There  is  only  one  exception,  I  believe.  The  Society  of  Friends  is 
giving  relief,  and  certain  members  of  it  are  thinking  of  arousing 
English  opinion  by  persuading  individual  English  towns  to  adopt 
Irish  towns.  And  we  were  opposed  to  that  because  we  said  that  re- 
lief of  that  kind  was  simply  a  salve  to  the  British  conscience;  and 
if  people  wanted  to  give  relief,  it  should  be  given  in  justice  and  not 
in  charity. 

Mrs.  Robinson :  I  understand  that  Miss  Louie  Bennett,  secretary 
of  the  Irish  branch  of  the  Women's  International  League,  is  also 
coming  to  give  testimony.  She  would  know  a  great  deal  about  that, 
you  see,  because  she  is  occupied  with  that  work  at  the  present  time. 

MILITARY  STATUS  OF  BRITISH  RED  CROSS 
PRECLUDES  ITS  HELP 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  see  any  evidence  of  the  Brit- 
ish Red  Cross  or  the  International  Red  Cross  doing  work  in  Ireland 
at  all? 

A.  No.  Of  course  our  idea  of  the  Red  Cross  is  quite  different 
from  yours.  The  Red  Cross  service,  as  far  as  we  are  concerned, 
is  only  a  branch  of  the  military  organization. 

Q.     It  is  not  connected  with  the  military  organization? 

A.  No,  it  is  a  part  of  the  military  organization.  I  do  not  think 
anybody  would  dream  of  appealing  to  the  Red  Cross  in  Britain.  It 
is  formed  by  the  army  officers  and  the  fashionable  people.  Nobody 
has  thought  of  appealing  to  the  Red  Cross  at  all. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difficulty  about  sending  in  relief,  except  per- 
haps the  taboo  on  the  sending  in  of  packages? 

A.     No,  I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  No  difficulty  put  in  the  shape  of  transport  of  food  by  lorries, 
and  that  sort  of  thing? 

A.  Well,  of  course  there  is  not  a  shortage  of  food  in  Ireland,  for 
it  is  largely  an  agricultural  country,  so  much  as  the  difficulty  of 
distribution  of  food  and  clothing  and  providing  buildings.     But  in 


611 

actual  practice  you  could  not  send  things  by  rail  because  the  rail- 
ways will  not  run. 

IS  AMERICAN  RED  CROSS  RELIEF  PARTIALLY  OR 
POLITICALLY    ADMINISTERED? 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  But  the  Red  Cross  of  England,  as 
you  understand  it,  is  part  of  the  military  organization? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  the  English  Red  Cross  what- 
ever. I  would  rather  not  answer  questions  about  it,  Madam  Chair- 
man. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Very  well.  I  realize  that  it  is  a  mili- 
tary organization. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  The  reason  I  am  asking  this  question  is 
that  I  want  to  know  about  our  own  Red  Cross.  I  inquired  this 
morning  from  you  ( indicating  Mrs.  Robinson )  if  the  Red  Cross  was 
doing  anything  in  Ireland.  I  was  told  by  Senator  Walsh  that  the 
American  Red  Cross  had  been  appealed  to,  to  do  relief  work  in  Ire- 
land and  said  it  could  not  do  it.  I  was  told  later  by  a  newspaper 
correspondent  here  that  the  American  Red  Cross  in  Russia  is  feed- 
ing the  people  on  one  side  of  the  line  and  not  on  the  other.  Now. 
if  the  British  Red  Cross  is  part  of  your  military  machine  and  doe*- 
not  operate  except  in  case  of  war,  then  it  would  be  interesting  to 
know  why  the  American  Red  Cross  refuses  to  take  action. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  ought  to  have  added  that  it  is  claimed  that  our 
Red  Cross  in  America  is  a  governmental  institution;  that  its  presi- 
dent is  the  President  of  the  United  States;  that  its  ex-officio  officers 
are  governors  of  states;  and  that  international  complications  would 
be  involved  in  its  operation  in  any  country  of  the  world  without  the 
consent  and  permission  of  that  country.  And  I  think  that  that  sit- 
uation existed  at  the  time  of  the  war;  and  before  we  entered  the  war. 
in  1914  and  1915,  our  Red  Cross  was  unable  to  do  work  in  Ger- 
many because  of  this  official  relationship.  And  there  was  organized 
a  neutral  organization  not  governmental  in  character  known  as  the 
American  Relief  Commission  in  Belgium,  which  got  permission 
from  the  German  Government  to  operate  in  Belgium.  And  it  is  my 
opinion  that  there  can  be  no  effective  relief  work  done  in  Ireland 
unless  there  is  some  American  Commission  such  as  the  American 
Commission  for  Relief  in  Belgium  organized,  and  permission  is  se- 
cured from  the  British  Government  to  do  work  in  Ireland. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Thank  you,  Senator,  for  the  information. 
Another  point:  during  the  Denikin  and  Wrangel  and  other  generals* 
drives  in  Russia,  I  was  informed  by  the  press  that  the  Red  Cross  was 
in  that  particular  part  of  Russia  that  was  trying  to  oppose  the  Soviet 
Government.  And  yet  at  no  time  did  I  read  that  any  Red  Cross  was 
up  in  the  other  part  of  Russia  where  the  Soviet  Government  pre- 
vailed. 


612 

Mrs.  Robinson:  May  I  interrupt  just  here.  I  think  that  the  Red 
Cross  in  Russia  was  the  Geneva  Red  Cross. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Pardon  me.  I  think  the  American  Red 
Cross  was  in  Russia  too. 

Commissioner  Addams:    I  think  that  is  a  domestic  affair. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  I  also  understand  that  our  Red  Cross  was 
not  in  that  particular  part  of  Russia  where  the  Soviet  Government 
ruled.  Now,  I  would  like  to  find  out  if  this  Red  Cross  of  ours  in 
America  is  partial  or  political.  I  want  to  find  out  now,  since  they 
could  go  to  some  particular  part  of  Russia  but  not  to  other  parts, 
and  cannot  go  to  Ireland, — those  are  the  things  that  interest  me. 
Perhaps  some  day  I  will  find  out. 

SOUTH   IRELAND   WILL   MAKE   CONCESSIONS   TO 
ULSTER 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  May  I  ask  if  you  found  in  the  south 
of  Ireland,  Miss  Wilkinson,  any  fear  of  Ulster  domination?  Do 
they  look  at  Ulster  as  a  big  industrial  group  in  Belfast?  Did  you 
hear  of  any  fear,  in  case  they  combined  with  Ulster,  that  Ulster 
would  dominate  them? 

A.     Oh,  no. 

Q.  That  is,  that  being  a  big  industrial  group  with  large  num- 
bers of  factories,  that  they  would  dominate  Ireland? 

A.  No,  quite  the  contrary.  As  far  as  I  could  gather  from  the 
Sinn  Fein  judges  and  politicians,  they  were  prepared  to  go  to  very 
great  lengths  to  overcome  what  they  called  "Ulster  prejudices"  so 
long  as  Ulster  would  remain  in  Ireland  and  thus  keep  Ireland  united. 
They  were  prepared  to  give  Ulster  any  kind  of  government  she 
wanted,  any  kind  of  taxation  she  wanted.  But  they  wanted  Ulster 
in  Ireland  because  they  believe  that  once  the  English  influence  was 
removed  from  Ulster,  that  in  time  the  two  sections  would  get  to- 
gether. And  they  feel  that  if  Ulster  has  a  Parliament  of  her  own, 
she  will  be  controlled  by  England,  and  that  will  only  cause  further 
trouble  in  the  country.  But  of  course  there  is  no  fear  of  Ulster 
domination  at  all.  The  fear  is  on  the  other  side.  The  Ulster  poli- 
ticians fear  a  Catholic  domination. 

MAJORITY  OF  ENGLISH  PEOPLE  OPPOSED  TO 
GOVERNMENT'S  IRISH  POLICY 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Now,  to  turn  to  the  English  side.  You 
have  been  addressing  large  meetings  in  England  on  the  Irish  ques- 
tion. What  has  been  the  reaction  at  these  meetings  as  you  have 
told  of  your  investigations  in  Ireland?  Has  it  been  incredulous 
enthusiasm  or  suppressed  indignation? 

A.  Well,  generally  speaking  there  has  been  very  high  indigna- 
tion.    Great  indignation  has  been  expressed  when  we  have  told  of 


613 

the  actions  of  the  military  in  Ireland.  And  great  astonishment  has 
been  expressed  when  we  told  about  the  general  situation  in  Ireland. 
I  am  perfectly  satisfied  that  if  any  referendum  could  be  taken,  the 
majority  of  the  English  people  are  not  behind  the  Coalition  Gov- 
ernment on  this  issue.  The  Coalition  Government  was  elected  on  a 
very  different  mechanical  issue,  and  had  nothing  to  do  with  this 
question.  It  stays  in  for  five  years  from  1918;  and  until  that  time 
it  can  do  as  it  likes  because  it  has  a  Parliamentary  majority.  I  feel 
that  there  is  a  very  grave  feeling  against  the  Coalition  policy;  and 
it  would  have  been  very  much  greater  if  it  had  not  been  compli- 
cated by  what  is  called  the  murders  of  policemen. 

SOURCES  OF  PREJUDICE  AGAINST  IRISH  IN 
BRITAIN 

Q.  Do  you  feel  that  what  is  called  the  religious  prejudice  bulks 
large  in  English  public  opinion? 

A.  I  think  there  is  a  great  deal  of  prejudice  against  Roman 
Catholicism,  but  it  is  not  very  bitter  except  in  places  like  Liverpool, 
where  there  are,  of  course,  as  many  Irishmen  as  there  are  in  any 
Irish  city.  And  again,  there  are  a  good  many  Irish  who  have  gone 
as  laborers  to  Presbyterian  Scotland.  And  there  is  a  very  large 
amount  of  prejudice  against  them  for  this  reason:  until  just  prior 
to  the  war  the  Irish  were  very  badly  off  in  their  own  country  and 
were  forced  to  emigrate.  The  country  could  not  keep  them  all. 
Ireland  says  that  that  was  due  to  the  crushing  of  the  country's  in- 
dustries. The  English  Government  says  that  Ireland  could  not  keep 
that  number  of  people.  These  laborers  were  taken,  for  instance,  to 
Dundee,  Mrs.  Robinson's  home,  and  put  to  work  in  the  jute  mills. 
That  problem  was  much  like  your  Japanese  problem  in  California, 
I  should  imagine.  The  Irish  came  in  and  accepted  lower  wages 
and  much  lower  standards  of  living;  and  that  made  popular  preju- 
dice against  them.  But  of  course,  during  the  conditions  growing 
out  of  the  war,  the  Irish  Transport  Workers  were  able  to  organize 
the  workers.  The  Irish  workers  got  used  to  a  much  higher  standard 
of  living;  for  of  course  they  had  not  accepted  a  lower  wage  in  Eng- 
land because  they  wanted  to,  but  because  they  had  to.  That  has 
been  stopped,  I  think,  by  the  N.  U.  R.,  which  has  been  able  to  get 
a  very  much  better  wage  for  the  railwaymen;  and  other  workers 
have  been  able  to  do  this  also. 

Q.  You  think  this  economic  grievance  has  been  stopped  since 
the  war? 

A.  Very  largely.  But  these  two  factors,  the  religious  prejudice 
and  the  economic  aspect  of  employment  at  low  wages,  have  caused 
a  certain  amount  -of  feeling  against  the  Irish  in  some  sections  in 
England. 


614 

Q.  I  don't  think  Mrs.  Robinson  gave  us  the  information  this 
morning  about  the  effect  of  conscription  in  Ireland  upon  the  sit- 
uation. 

A.  Well,  I  think  Mrs.  Robinson  meant  that  I  had  had  trade 
union  experience.  You  see,  in  England  conscription  was  not  popu- 
lar before  the  war.  And  since  the  war  a  very  strong  feeling  has 
set  in  against  it.  If  you  say,  "Is  there  a  feeling  against  Ireland  be- 
cause she  did  not  send  soldiers  to  fight?"  I  would  say  that  now 
that  does  not  exist  among  labor  people  at  all,  because  the  reaction 
against  the  war  among  labor  people  has  wiped  that  all  out.  Does 
that  answer  your  question? 

Q.  Yes.  It  is  frequently  said  here  in  America  that  Ireland  did 
not  stand  by  England  during  the  war.  She  would  not  accept  con- 
scription. 

A.  I  think  that  was  very  strong  in  England  during  the  war. 
Most  of  the  English  people  regarded  the  1916  rebellion  as  a  stab 
at  England  in  the  back  just  when  we  were  at  our  darkest  hour  in 
the  war;  because  1916  was  a  terrible  war  year  for  us.  And  I  think 
on  account  of  that,  the  English  people  acquiesced  in  the  shooting 
of  the  leaders  of  the  rebellion;  because,  as  many  English  officers 
have  told  me,  it  was  treason  for  the  Irish  not  to  fight  with  them. 
But  I  think  in  a  very  curious  way  the  English  people  have  come  to 
realize  that  it  was  not  altogether  their  war;  and  the  English  people 
have  come  to  recognize  that  feeling  on  the  part  of  the  Irish.  I  don't 
think  that  prejudice  exists  now  except  in  military  circles.  Take,  for 
instance,  our  treatment  of  conscientious  objectors,  which  is  almost 
a  parallel  case.  They  were  released  shortly  after  the  peace,  and 
there  isn't  any  organized  prejudice  against  them  at  all  any  more. 
I  think  the  position  regarding  Ireland  is  the  same  case. 

Mrs.  Robinson:  I  think  I  should  go  further  and  say  there  is  an 
understanding  of  the  Irish  position  during  the  war  now. 

MORE  CIVIL  LIBERTY   IN  ENGLAND   THAN   IN 
AMERICA  OR  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Can  you  hold  meetings  and  say 
anything  you  want  to  about  the  Government  policy  now?  Can  labor 
unions  meet  and  criticize  the  government? 

A.  Yes,  of  course,  in  case  you  do  not  get  up  and  urge  the  over- 
throw of  the  Government  by  force  and  revolution. 

Q.  Did  you  have  during  the  last  few  years  a  great  deal  of  trouble 
from  so-called  Reds  and  Bolsheviks,  and  all  that? 

A.     What  do  you  mean?     Miss  Addams,  explain  it  for  me. 

Q.  No,  I  am  trying  to  find  out  something  about  England.  I  am 
trying  to  compare  American  democracy  with  British  democracy. 
And  you  say  that  your  conscientious  objectors  were  given  their 
freedom  completely  after  peace  was  signed? 


615 

A.      \  es,  yes,  indeed. 

Q.     And  do  you  have  any  political  prisoners  still  in  jail? 

A.  No. — Yes,  0  well,  there  is  Sylvia  Pankhurst.  But  you  can 
say  almost  anything  you  want  to  about  the  Government  providing 
you  use  common  sense.     But  of  course  you  cannot  do  it  in  Ireland. 

Commissioner  Maurer:    Well,  we  cannot  do  it  in  America. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Do  you  say  that  the  anti-militaristic  forces 
in  England  have  increased  tremendously  since  the  war? 

A.     Oh,  yes. 

Q.  So  that  your  people  are  pretty  much  set  against  militarism 
in  their  Government? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  want  to  be  too  definite.  I  mean  every  kind  of 
peace  society  has  increased  its  membership  and  has  increased  its 
power,  and  there  is  a  very  real  revulsion  against  war.  There  is  not 
one  of  us,  not  a  home  that  has  not  given  something, — that  has  not 
gone  through  a  very  terrible  experience.  When  the  Polish  war  came 
along,  the  British  Council  of  Action  really  expressed  the  opinion 
of  the  overwhelming  majority  of  the  country  that  we  were  not  going 
to  have  another  war.  And  all  those  influences  united,  and  kept  us 
out  of  that  war.  I  do  not  say,  of  course,  that  the  jingo  press  would 
not  be  able  to  fan  up  flames  for  another  war;  but  there  is  a  tre- 
mendous feeling  against  militarism. 

Senator  Walsh:    I  think  that  answers  my  question. 

VARYING  SENTIMENTS  OF  ENGLISH  PRESS 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Mrs.  Robinson  spoke  of  three  or  four 
papers  that  carried  some  reasonable  amount  of  correct  Irish  news. 
The  rest  of  the  press  is  not  all  Coalition  press,  is  it? 

A.     0,  no. 

Q.  The  Northcliffe  press  is  one  group  that  criticizes  the  Govern- 
ment considerably  in  regard  to  this,  is  it  not? 

A.  Yes;  of  course  there  are  the  Northcliffe  papers  and  the  pa- 
pers owned  by  the  Coalition  Government;  and  then  papers  like  the 
Daily  Chronicle. 

Q.     But  do  the  Northcliffe  papers  criticize  this  Irish  policy? 

A.  Well,  the  Northcliffe  press  speaks  with  so  many  voices;  it  is 
very  difficult  to  say  of  the  Harmsworth  press  that  it  has  any  steady 
policy.  As  far  as  the  Times  is  concerned,  it  has  stood  very  con- 
sistently for  moderation  and  home  rule.  But  as  regards  the  Daily 
Mail  you  could  not  say  that. 

Q.  Now,  as  for  the  voices  from  the  colonies,  is  there  any  par- 
ticular comeback  from  the  colonies? 

A.  As  far  as  I  know  there  has  been  nothing  clone  in  the  colonies 
at  all;  nothing  official  in  the  wav  of  proceedings. 


616 

ULSTER  ISSUE  AN  INSINCERE  EXCUSE  FOR 
GOVERNMENT'S  IRISH  POLICY 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  is  often  said  in  this  country  in 
the  name  of  England  that  the  whole  question  would  be  simply 
solved  were  it  not  for  Ulster;  that  England  stands  ready  to  give 
Ireland  anything  if  only  Ulster  were  out  of  the  way.  I  don't  mean 
to  ask  you  whether  the  people  who  say  that  are  sincere,  but  whether 
it  really  does  bulk  large  in  the  minds  of  the  English  people. 

A.  To  say  that  is  to  say,  suppose  that  English  history  had  been 
entirely  different.  You  see,  this  policy  has  gone  on  for  several  hun- 
dred years.  The  policy  of  the  British  Government  for  all  these  gen- 
erations has  been  to  keep  the  Protestant  minority  in  Ireland  de- 
pendent entirely  on  England.  So  you  have  got  the  Pale  around 
Ulster. 

Q.  May  I  interrupt?  The  Pale  was  Catholic  until  the  Reforma- 
tion, was  it  not? 

A.  Yes,  the  Pale  was.  And  there  were  plantations  under  the 
most  Catholic  Queen  we  ever  had, — Mary  II.  And  the  Pale  was 
included  then.  But  the  O'Neals  of  that  time  came  from  Ulster, — 
and  Ulster  is  the  place  of  the  great  Irish  heroes.  But  when  it  came 
to  plant  Ulster,  the  Irish  were  driven  off  the  land  more  completely 
than  in  any  other  part  of  the  country.  And  so  Ulster  has  been  kept 
dependent  on  the  English  ascendancy,  and  Ireland  has  been  kept 
divided  most  wonderfully.  Of  course,  this  is  not  a  British  policy. 
The  policy  of  Divide  and  Govern  is  an  old  one. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    The  regular  imperialistic  policy. 

A.  Yes,  the  regular  imperialistic  policy.  So  that  you  see  it  is 
quite  impossible  for  a  British  statesman  to  get  up  and  say,  "If  only 
the  Irish  could  agree  among  themselves,  we  would  be  prepared  to 
give  whatever  they  wanted."  The  answer  to  that  is  the  attitude  of 
the  Coalition  Government  toward  the  Convention. 

Q.  You  mean  the  Horace  Plunkett  convention,  for  the  sake  of 
the  record? 

A.  Yes,  quite.  There  was  the  Horace  Plunkett  Convention  called 
by  Sir  Horace  during  the  war.  From  what  he  said  to  us,  they  got 
far  beyond  their  expectations  in  getting  the  Ulster  leaders  to  admit 
that  the  Irishmen  haven't  horns  and  tails.  And  just  as  they  were 
giving  their  report, — the  very  same  week  Mr.  Lloyd  George  came 
forward  with  his  plan  of  conscription  for  Ireland.  That  was  tear- 
ing up  his  promises  to  the  Convention.  And  of  course  the  whole 
thing  fell  through  on  that.  Now,  then,  if  the  British  Government 
were  sincere  that  they  would  give  Ireland  what  it  wants  if  it  can 
agree,  they  should  not  do  things  that  make  it  impossible  for  that 
agreement  to  be  reached.  I  think  it  is  sincere  when  a  good  many 
people  say  it,  because  they  do  not  understand  the  history  of  Ireland. 
I  don't  think  it  is  sincere  when  the  Coalition  Government  says  it. 


617 

"SAFETY  OF  THE  EMPIRE"  ARGUMENT 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Is  there  a  feeling  that  Ireland,  if  it 
were  allowed  to  go  on  its  own,  would  adopt  some  new  experiment 
in  government? 

A.  I  think  there  is  that  feeling  very  largely  in  England.  But 
the  much  more  real  fear  in  England  is  that  Ireland  would  be  used 
by  an  enemy  for  a  submarine  base.  It  was  said  by  the  British  Gov- 
ernment that  Irish  creeks  were  used  by  the  Germans  as  submarine 
bases  during  the  war.  I  don't  know  how  true  that  was.  Of  course, 
the  Government  says  it  was  a  German  submarine  that  landed  Sir 
Roger  Casement.  That  is  a  real  danger,  I  suppose.1  But  we  are 
doing  so  much  harm  by  keeping  the  issue  alive.  Ireland  can  be 
won.    We  can  win  Ireland  to  friendship  if  we  set  about  doing  it. 

Q.  I  was  wondering  if  you  had  heard,  in  your  public  life  in 
England,  any  discussion  about  that. 

A.  Well,  I  think  it  is  being  said,  of  course,  just  as  the  subma- 
rine scare  is  being  used. 

Commissioner  Wood:    Thank  you  very  much. 

Senator  Walsh:  Miss  Addams  wants  to  put  something  into  the 
record. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Perhaps  Miss  Wilkinson  would  read  it 
(handing  letter  to  Miss  Wilkinson  to  read). 

Miss  Wilkinson  (reading)  : 

""Dear  Miss  Addams: 

"I  regret  that  personal  reasons  make  it  quite  impossible  that 
I  should  be  one  of  the  party  which  goes  over  to  give  evidence 
before  the  American  Commission  on  Ireland.  I  made  it  par- 
ticularly my  business  to  enquire  into  the  effect  upon  the  eco- 
nomic situation  in  Ireland  of  British  policy,  and  for  this  pur- 
pose interviewed  business  men  and  women  who  had  taken  no 
prominent  part  in  politics,  and  some  of  whom  had  been  Union- 
ists, although  not  politically  active. 

BRITISH   POLICY   OF  TERRORISM   AND   ANARCHY 
CAUSING  ECONOMIC  RUIN 

"I  found  a  universal  conviction  that  Great  Britain's  policy 
had  in  the  past  been  directed  to  limiting  or  even  hampering 
Irish  economic  development  in  the  supposed  interests  of  Brit- 


1  Eamon  de  Valera,  elected  President  of  the  Irish  Republic,  in  his  letter 
to  President  Woodrow  Wilson  of  Oct.  27,  1920,  transmitting  Ireland's 
Request  to  the  Government  of  the  United  States  of  America  for  Recog- 
nition as  a  Sovereign  Independent  State,  specifically  pledges  the  readiness 
of  his  government  to  give  adequate  guarantees,  as  part  of  a  treaty  of 
peace  between  Britain  and  Ireland,  that  Irish  harbors  shall  never  be  used 
as  bases  for  aggressive  warfare. 


618 

ish  firms.  They  were  of  opinion  that  the  British  Government 
was  now  pursuing  its  policy  of  terrorism  and  anarchy  in  com- 
plete disregard  of  the  economic  ruin  it  would  cause  in  Ireland. 
I  was  shown  evidence  by  Mr.  Riordan,  secretary  of  the  Irish 
Industrial  Development  Association,  that  British  firms  were  re- 
fusing to  supply  goods  to  Irish  firms  as  far  back  as  August, 
1920,  because  the  British  Government  had  laid  an  embargo  on 
them.  This  evidence  consisted  in  copies  of  the  letters  written 
by  the  English  firms  making  this  statement. 

"I  append  a  resolution  passed  by  the  Council  of  Cork  Indus- 
trial Development  Association  (whose  treasurer,  Mr.  Coleman, 
has  recently  been  murdered)  which  clearly  shows  the  prevail- 
ing impression  to  which  I  allude. 

"I  was  in  Cork  the  night  (October  ninth)  that  an  attempt 
was  made  to  destroy  the  City  Hall.  An  incendiary  bomb  set 
one  wing  alight,  and  it  was  gutted;  but  the  fire  brigade  was  able 
to  prevent  the  flames  from  destroying  the  whole  building.  The 
explosion  occurred  at  about  4  A.  M.,  and  astonished  no  one,  as 
there  had  been  the  assassination  of  a  soldier  (aged  seventeen 
years  and  five  months)  the  day  before  in  a  Cork  street,  and 
reprisals  were  the  rule. 

OUTRAGES  AT  MALLOW  COMMITTED  BY  BRITISH 
SOLDIERS 

"I  visited  Mallow  and  saw  the  eight  houses,  the  Town  Hall, 
and  Cleeves'  Creamery,  which  had  all  been  gutted  by  fire. 
There  was  no  single  person  I  spoke  to  who  had  the  least  doubt 
that  this  outrage  was  carried  out  by  soldiers  from  Mallow, 
Buttevant,  and  Fermoy.  The  Black-and-Tans  here  tried  to 
check  the  arson.  Men  using  a  hose  were  fired  on  by  soldiers. 
I  had  interviews  with  the  parish  priest  (Canon  Corbett)  and 
Mr.  William  O'Brien  (late  Nationalist  M.  P.),  and  they  gave 
exact  details  of  the  raid  by  Republican  forces  on  the  Mallow 
barracks,  for  which  the  sacking  of  Mallow  was  revenge.  Canon 
Corbett  told  me  that  the  poor  people,  women  and  children, 
flocking  up  the  hill  to  take  refuge  in  his  church,  were  fired  at 
by  snipers  hidden  behind  walls,  and  he  was  convinced  that  they 
were  soldiers.  While  in  Mallow  a  lorry  load  of  some  dozen 
Royal  Irish  Constabulary  men  in  dark  green  uniforms  motored 
through  the  little  street,  all  the  men  seated  with  their  faces 
turned  to  the  footpaths  and  their  rifles  on  the  knee,  pointed  at 
the  footpaths.  I  saw  no  firing,  but  was  told  by  Mr.  O'Brien 
that  there  had  on  previous  days  been  firing  into  the  ruins  of 
the  houses. 

"I   found  Dublin   in   a  state  of  the  highest  nervous  tension, 


619 

armored  cars  and   tanks  patrolling  the  streets.     The  unarmed 
police  seemed  the  safest  people. 

"I  am  yours  very  truly, 

"H.  M.  Swanwick, 
"Chairman,  British  Section,  Women's  Inter- 
national League." 

Miss  Wilkinson:  There  is  appended  to  this  a  list  of  the  people 
interviewed  by  Mrs.  H.  M.  Swanwick  with  the  express  purpose  of 
hearing  the  opinion  of  non-political  people  devoted  to  the  financial, 
industrial,  and  agricultural  development  of  Ireland:  Sir  Horace 
Plunkett  of  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society;  George 
Russell,  known  as  JE.,  the  editor  of  the  paper  of  the  Agricultural 
Society;  Mr.  Riordan,  Secretary  of  the  Irish  Industrial  Development 
Association  and  author  of  "Modern  Irish  Trade  and  Industry";  Liam 
de  Roiste,  Secretary  of  the  Cork  Industrial  Development  Association : 
Mr.  Smith-Gordon,  of  the  National  Land  Bank,  Dublin;  Mr.  Thomas 
Johnson,  of  the  Transport  Workers'  Federation;  and  Miss  Whitby, 
of  the  United  Irish  Women. 

The  resolution  of  the  Council  of  the  Cork  Industrial  Development 
Association  reads  as  follows: 

"At  a  meeting  of  the  Council  of  the  Cork  Industrial  Develop- 
ment Association  held  on  Monday,  September  twentieth,  the 
following  resolution  was  passed: 

"This  Association,  representative  of  the  commercial  and  in- 
dustrial interests  of  Cork,  expresses  its  pleasure  at  the  advent 
of  the  ships  of  the  United  States  Mail  Steamship  Company  to 
the  Port  of  Cork,  which  we  feel  confident  will  lead  to  a  big 
development  of  trade  and  intercourse  between  Ireland  and 
America. 


'TRADITIONAL  REPRESSIVE   ECONOMIC   POLICY" 
OF  ENGLAND 

"We  condemn  the  action  of  the  British  Government  authori- 
ties in  their  prohibition  against  American  passenger  vessels 
entering  Cork  Harbor  on  the  east-bound  voyage.  We  regard 
such  prohibition  not  as  an  isolated  incident,  but  as  part  of  the 
traditional  English  policy  of  maintaining  control  of  the  seas 
and  preventing  the  shipping  expansion  of  other  nations.  We 
also  regard  it  as  part  of  England's  traditional  repressive  eco- 
nomic policy  against  the  development  of  Ireland's  trade  and 
commerce,  which  policy  ruthlessly  pursued  has  reduced  the 
population  of  our  country  from  eight  millions  to  four  millions 
within  the  past  seventy  years. 

"We  look  to  the  United  States  administration,  and  in  particu- 


620 

lar  to  its  Shipping  Board  department,  to  insist  upon  freedom 
for  its  vessels  to  enter  Irish  ports,  and  we  are  sure  the  whole 
Irish  people  will  cooperate  with  any  action  taken  by  them  in 
this  respect,  as  it  is  to  the  interests  of  our  country  that  its  ports 
be  free  to  all  vessels,  and  it  is  our  desire  to  maintain  direct 
intercourse  with  all  nations." 

Commissioner  Addams:    Thank  you  very  much,  Miss  Wilkinson. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Are  there  any  announcements  to  be  made  for  tomorrow,  Mr. 
Howe? 

Senator  Walsh :  First  I  want  to  thank  these  ladies  for  their  splen- 
did, impartial  testimony,  and  especially  to  commend  their  courage — 
for  I  think  we  can  all  appreciate  that  they  required  courage,  and 
their  love  and  devotion  to  humanity  in  general,  which  I  think  is 
apparent  to  all  from  their  testimony  here. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  am  sure  we  are  all  very  glad  to  hear 
Senator  Walsh  say  that.     It  is  what  we  all  think. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  reconvene  tomorrow  morn- 
ing at  ten  o'clock,  and  the  witnesses  are 

Mr.  Manly:  The  Misses  Walsh,  the  sisters-in-law  of  the  mur- 
dered Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  of  Cork,  Miss  Anna  Walsh  and  Miss 
Susanna  Walsh. 

Chairman  Howe:    Are  there  any  other  witnesses? 

Mr.  Manly:    There  will  be,  if  there  is  time  for  them. 

Chairman  Howe:    The  session  is  adjourned. 


REPORT  OF  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND  MADE  BY 
THE  WOMEN'S  INTERNATIONAL  LEAGUE 

(Incorporated  in  the  record  by  direction  of  the  Commission.) 

"The  following  report  of  conditions  in  Ireland  was  pub- 
lished by  the  English  Section  of  the  Women's  International 
League  for  Peace  and  Freedom  after  the  return  of  ten  members 
who  had  formed  a  mission  last  October  to  visit  Ireland  to  col- 
lect first-hand  evidence  of  the  condition  of  the  country,  and 
come  back  to  tell  British  people  what  was  being  done  in  their 
name. 

"The  Irishwomen's  International  League  was  communicated 
with,  and  cordially  welcomed  the  mission,  giving  every  pos- 
sible facility  for  obtaining  information.  The  first  portion,  con- 
sisting of  Mrs.  Watts  (Manchester  Honorary  Secretary)  and 
Mrs.  Swanwick  (Chairman  of  Executive  Committee)  went  on 
October  fourth.  There  followed  Mrs.  Annot  Robinson,  Dr. 
Catherine  Chisholm,  Miss  Amy  Herford,  Mrs.  Gee,  Miss  Wil- 
kinson, and  Miss  Melland,  all  of  Manchester;  Miss  Mewhort 
and  Mrs.  Dollan  of  Glasgow. 


621 

"The  Mission  felt  a  special  international  responsibility  to 
inform  itself  of  how  the  nations  within  the  British  Empire  are 
being  treated  by  our  Government,  and  although  its  members 
endeavored  to  discover  the  truth  in  all  cases,  they  do  not  pre- 
tend to  have  gone  to  Ireland  with  minds  bare  of  principles. 
They  are  women  organized  for  constructive  peace,  and  as  such, 
they  hold  that  freedom  is  the  first  condition  of  peace.  They 
are  against  violence  in  all  forms;  they  would  welcome  the  dis- 
arming of  all  men;  they  regard  killing  and  maiming  and  ter- 
rorism, by  whomsoever  it  is  practiced,  as  barbarous  and  politi- 
cally vicious. 

INQUIRY  COVERS  DIFFERENT  PARTS  OF  IRELAND 

'"Different  members  of  the  Mission  went  to  different  parts  of 
Ireland  in  order  to  cover  the  ground  as  quickly  as  possible. 
The  towns  and  villages  were:  Belfast,  Derry,  Lisburn,  Dublin. 
Balbriggan,  Limerick,  Lahinch,  Ennistymon,  Tuam,  Cork,  and 
Mallow. 

"The  situation  in  northeast  Ulster  was,  as  they  were  aware 
it  must  be,  widely  different  from  that  prevailing  over  the  whole 
of  the  rest  of  the  country.  But  those  who  visited  Belfast,  Derry, 
and  Lisburn  came  to  the  conclusion  that  differences  between 
the  Irish  people  there  would  be  much  more  readily  settled  if 
Great  Britain  ceased  interference. 

SINN  FEIN  GOVERNMENT  SUPPORTED   BY 
ENORMOUS  MAJORITY  OF  PEOPLE 

"In  the  whole  of  the  rest  of  Ireland  the  conditions  resembled 
each  other  and  were  different  from  those  in  Belfast.  The  Sinn 
Fein  Government  has  the  enthusiastic  support  of  the  enormous 
majority  of  the  population.  To  a  degree  never  witnessed  be- 
fore by  any  of  the  women,  it  is  possible  to  say  that  Dail  Eireann 
governs  with  the  consent  of  the  people.  Although  members  of 
the  Government  are  proscribed,  their  courts  illegal,  and  their 
revenues  forfeit,  one  can  truly  say  that  without  them  Ireland 
would  be  given  over  to  sheer  anarchy. 

WAR 

"Without  expressing  any  opinion  on  the  matter,  the  Mission 
records  the  fact  that  all  Sinn  Feiners  regard  themselves  as  at 
war  with  the  British  Government  of  Ireland,  and  look  upon 
any  deaths  that  may  occur  in  raids  upon  barracks  or  armed 
soldiers  and  police  as  'casualties  of  war,'  whether  these  'cas- 
ualties' are  on  their  own  side  or  the  other.  This  fact  must  be 
taken  into  account  when  estimating  the  deaths  on  either  side. 
Sinn  Fein  asserts  that  in  nine  months  of  1920,  62  civilians  have 
been  murdered  by  the  forces  of  the  Crown,  while  if  they  were 
to  add  to  them  the  number  of  Irish  who  have  fallen  'in  war' 


622 


these  would  run  into  hundreds.  In  the  Government  estimate, 
on  the  other  hand,  all  members  of  the  forces  of  the  Crown  who 
have  been  killed,  whether  by  assassination  ( like  Mr.  Bell  in 
Dublin)  or  in  'war,'  are  added  to  the  account  of  'murders'  car- 
ried out  by  the  'murder  gang.'  The  Mission  does  not  justify 
either  'war'  or  'murder.'  It  draws  attention  to  the  fact  that  the 
Irish  people  draw  a  distinction  between  the  two,  a  distinction 
which  common  opinion  does  justify. 

"Members  of  the  Mission  spoke  personally  with  many  of  the 
surviving  relatives  of  men  murdered  by  the  forces  of  the  Crown, 
or  with  men  whose  assassination  had  been  attempted  and  failed. 
English  papers  for  the  most  part  do  not  record  these,  while 
they  record  and  amplify  all  on  the  other  side. 

"The  Government  campaign  against  Sinn  Fein  is  carried  out 
in  the  following  ways: 

"(1)    Terrorism; 

"(2)  Destruction  of  Irish  Agriculture  and  Manufacture  and 
Trade ; 

"(3)    Propaganda. 

TERRORISM 

"They  found  in  the  East,  West,  and  South  that  the  so-called 
'reprisals'  against  the  civilian  population  were  sometimes  or- 
ganized by  the  soldiers  who  are  English,  and  the  majority  very 
young  indeed)  ;  sometimes  by  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
(who  are  largely  Irish)  ;  and  sometimes  by  the  new  armed 
forces  attached  to  the  constabulary,  who  are  mostly  English 
ex-service  men,  many  of  them  ex-officers).  It  was  not  infre- 
quent that  where  one  of  these  bodies  had  organized  a  bombing 
and  incendiary  party,  another  had  tried  to  protect  the  people 
and  their  houses.  Sometimes  evidence  was  clear  that  the  mili- 
tary or  police  were  drunk;  sometimes  equally  clear  that  they 
were  sober.  Sometimes  there  was  method  in  the  destruction, 
only  known  sympathizers  with  Sinn  Fein  being  attacked; 
sometimes  the  destruction  was  perfectly  indiscriminate;  some- 
times, as  in  the  murder  of  Mr.  Lynch  in  Dublin,  it  seemed  likely 
that  the  man  was  killed  in  mistake  for  another.  It  was  per- 
fectly clear  that  many  of  the  raids  were  authorized  and  were 
not  due  to  the  men  getting  out  of  hand.  Military  lorries,  in- 
cendiary bombs,  petrol  and  ammunition  are  not  at  the  free  dis- 
posal of  the  private  soldier  at  his  own  caprice.  Terrorism  has 
been  increased  by  the  prohibition  of  inquests  and  the  holding 
only  of  Courts  Martial  by  English  soldiers. 

"In  addition  to  innumerable  outrages  by  Government  forces 
which  have  left  'devastated  areas'  resembling  those  of  Belgium 
in  all  the  places  the  Mission  visited,  the  regular  raids  by  police 
and  military  are  conducted  in  such  a  way  as  to  strike  terror  as 
widely  as  possible.  After  curfew,  when  the  streets  are  in  pitch 
darkness  and  no  civilian  may  be  abroad  without  a  permit,  the 


623 

military  lorries,  armored  cars,  and  even  tanks  rattle  through 
the  streets  carrying  armed  search  parties.  They  hatter  at  doors, 
and  if  the  inhabitant  take  so  much  time  as  is  needed  to  slip  on 
shoes  and  a  coat,  the  front  door  is  smashed  in  and  the  house 
filled  with  armed  men.  They  lock  the  women  and  children 
away,  frequently  with  no  covering  but  their  night-dresses,  and 
search  with  the  utmost  brutality,  tearing  up  mattresses,  break- 
ing open  locks;  frequently  the  Mission  had  evidence  of  very 
serious  thefts  and  of  the  wanton  destruction  of  pictures  and 
ornaments  in  houses  where  nothing  incriminating  could  he 
found. 

"The  presence  of  secret  agents,  spies,  agents-provocateurs, 
was  a  frequent  subject  of  conversation,  and  added  greatly  to 
the  prevailing  state  of  nervous  tension.  The  Mission  heard 
many  stories  of  the  placing  of  incriminating  evidence  (such  as 
arms,  ammunition,  or  seditious  papers)  in  a  raided  house  by 
some  secret  agent  of  the  Government,  who  came  as  'guide'  or  as 
secret  service  man. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  IRISH  TRADE  AND  INDUSTRY 

"The  Mission  has  to  record  that  it  found  a  conviction  among 
the  Irish  people  that  it  is  the  purpose  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment to  ruin  Irish  trade  and  industry  in  order  to  drive  the 
young  men  to  emigrate.  The  destruction  of  creameries,  which 
are  entirely  unpolitical,  of  factories  (such  as  Balbriggan  Ho- 
siery Factory ) ,  and  of  hay-stacks  by  the  score,  is  inevitably 
leading  to  the  unemployment  of  large  numbers  of  people.  It 
was  pointed  out  that  Queenstown  Harbor  has  been  closed  to 
eastbound  traffic,  but  is  open  for  west-bound  traffic;  and  Lord 
French's  indiscreet  speech  (when  he  said  that  the  present  trou- 
ble was  due  to  the  presence  in  their  own  country  of  two  hun- 
dred thousand  young  men  who  would  'normally'  have  emi- 
grated) was  quoted  everywhere  as  showing  the  real  object  of 
the  Government  in  what  seemed  otherwise  a  purely  motiveless 
mischief. 

"When  a  business  concern  or  farmer  makes  a  claim  for  com- 
pensation for  destruction  by  the  forces  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment, the  sum  awarded  is  laid  (by  the  'Malicious  Injuries  Act' I 
upon  the  Irish  people  for  payment. 

"On  the  day  of  the  departure  of  the  Mission,  Ireland  was 
greatly  concerned  at  the  threat  to  hold  up  altogether  the  rail- 
way and  postal  services  in  reprisal  for  the  refusal  of  railway- 
men  to  carry  British  soldiers  and  ammunition,  and  for  the 
raiding  of  the  mails  by  Sinn  Feiners. 

ANTI-IRISH  PROPAGANDA 

"The  Mission  found  the  Irish  people  indignant  at  the  use  of 
the  press  and  public  platforms  for  the  suppression  and  dis- 
tortion of  news,  and  for  the  fomenting  of  hate  toward  the  Irish 


624 

people.  It  was  shown  copies  of  a  printed  sheet  called  the 
Weekly  Summary  supplied  by  the  Government  to  the  Black- 
and-Tans,  and  filled  with  incitements  to  bad  feeling;  this  sheet 
persistently  identified  the  whole  Sinn  Fein  movement  with 
what  it  called  the  'murder  gang.'  Attention  has  been  drawn  to 
this  abominable  sheet  by  people  of  decent  feeling,  and  later 
numbers  have  been  more  circumspect.  No.  3  contained  the 
following  passage:  'They  (the  Black-and-Tans)  will  go  on 
with  their  job,  the  job  of  making  Ireland  once  again  safe  for 
the  law-abiding,  and  an  appropriate  hell  for  those  whose  trade 
is  agitation  and  whose  method  is  murder.' 

"The  Mission  had  repeated  evidence  of  the  attempt  of  the 
British  Government  to  fasten  upon  Sinn  Feiners  the  responsi- 
bility for  outrages  of  which  the  Government  forces  were  guilty, 
and  Mr.  George's  speeches  were  frequently  cited  as  gross  in- 
stances of  distortion  of  fact,  when  he  suggested  that  the  Gov- 
ernment forces  were  only  defending  themselves  from  attack, 
and  entirely  ignored  the  sacking  and  looting,  the  'murder  and 
arson'  (to  use  Judge  Bodkin's  words),  of  which  there  were 
scores  of  examples  in  all  the  towns  and  villages  visited  by  the 
Mission. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  OF  COMMISSION 

"Based  on  all  the  facts  collected,  the  devastated  areas  the 
Mission  saw,  the  conversations  they  had  with  Sinn  Feiners, 
Dominion  Home  Rulers,  Unionists,  business  men,  mothers  and 
widows  of  murdered  men,  workers  of  both  sexes,  they  formed 
certain  conclusions: 

"(1)  Ireland  at  the  General  Election,  1918,  by  constitutional 
election  chose  her  own  Government.  A  majority  of  over  70 
per  cent,  was  cast  for  Sinn  Fein,  and  by  the  overwhelming  con- 
sent of  the  people  the  Irish  Parliament  (Dail  Eireann),  meet- 
ing in  Ireland,  rules  over  the  Irish  people. 

"(2)  As  a  necessary  consequence,  the  British  Government, 
attempting  to  rule  against  the  will  of  seventy  per  cent,  of  the 
people,  can  do  so  only  by  force  complicated  by  fraud.  Spies 
and  informers  are  an  essential  part  of  the  Government  where 
the  mass  of  the  people  are  hostile.  There  is  no  cooperation 
between  governors  and  governed,  and  the  army  of  occupation 
(whether  military  proper  or  armed  police)  is  demoralized  by 
perpetual  and  agonizing  fear  and  the  constant  use  of  debasing 
methods  of  espionage  and  lawless  intimidation  and  revenge; 

"(3)  This  state  of  affairs  can  lead  only  to  the  economic  ruin 
of  Ireland  and  great  economic  injury  to  Great  Britain;  to  a 
still  more  disastrous  moral  injury  to  Great  Britain  and  to  her 
reputation  in  all  the  world; 

"(4)  The  Mission  therefore  advocates  the  immediate  libera- 
tion of  Irish  political  prisoners  and  the  offering  of  a  truce  dur- 
ing which  all  armed  force  shall  be  withdrawn,  and  the  keeping 


625 


of  order  be  placed  in  the  hands  of  Irish  local  elected  bodies, 
thus  creating  conditions  under  which  the  Irish  people  may  de- 
termine their  own  form  of  government." 

(Signed  by  the  above-named  members  of  the  Mission.) 


FOURTH  HEARINGS 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Session  Two 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Wednesday,  December  twenty-second,  1920. 

10:40  A.  M. 

Commissioner  Addams  in  the  chair. 

Commissioner  Addams:  The  Commission  will  be  in  session, 
please.  The  first  witness  is  Miss  Walsh  from  Cork,  Ireland.  You 
are  representing  Miss  Walsh,  are  you  not,  Mr.  Walsh? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Yes,  I  am. 

SIR  HAMAR  GREENWOOD   FALSELY  REPUDIATES 
WITNESSES 

Madam  Chairman  and  Members  of  the  Commission:  Subsequent 
to  the  last  hearing  an  article  appeared  in  a  great  many  papers  of 
the  country,  especially  the  New  York  Times  and  others,  in  which 
it  is  stated  that  the  witnesses  who  appeared  here  and  testified  as 
members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  had  been  repudiated  by 
Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  and  the  insinuation  made  by  him  that  they 
were  not  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.  So  we  want 
to  offer  before  this  Commission  absolute  proof  of  the  claims  of 
these  witnesses  that  they  were  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary. The  first  evidence  is  a  parchment  certificate  of  character 
to  Mr.  John  Joseph  Caddan.  This  is  a  certificate  of  character  that 
is  only  given  on  application,  and  he  was  the  only  one  who  applied 
for  one.  You  will  note  that  they  say  that  his  conduct  during  his 
service  was  an  exceptional  one.  And  the  others  have  a  certificate 
of  appointment  to  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  duly  signed  by  the 
proper  officials  of  the  British  Government.  Mr.  Caddan,  whom  I 
believe  was  the  most  important  of  these  witnesses,  has  a  character 
certificate  in  addition  to  a  certificate  of  appointment. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Have  you  a  copy  of  the  statement  whereby 
it  was  claimed  that  they  were  not  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Con- 
stabulary? 

A.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  No.  The  statement  was  that  Sir  Hamar 
Greenwood  had  repudiated  their  testimony  as  members  of  the  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary,  and  that  he  asserted  that  there  were  no  mem- 
bers of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  in  this  country,  and  that  pass- 
ports had  been  given  to  none. 

Senator  Walsh:  If  you  will  produce  those  statements,  the  Com- 
mission will  cable,  calling  upon  him  to  substantiate  them. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  will  be  very  glad  to  have  the  record 
clear  on  this. 

626 


627 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    1  will  undertake  to  get  the  articles  in  question. 
Commissioner  Addams:    Now  we  may  proceed  with  the  witnesses. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  SUSANNA  WALSH 

Q.      Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:     State  your  name  to  the  Commission. 

A.     Susanna  Walsh. 

Q.     Where  do  you  reside? 

A.     In  Cork.  Ireland. 

Q.     You  arrived  in  this  country  when? 

A.     Day  before  yesterday. 

Cj.     And  you  sailed  from  where? 

A.     From  Cork. 

Q.     On  what  date? 

A.     On  Sunday  week. 

Q.  Are  you  related  by  marriage  lo  the  late  Lord  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain? 

A.     Yes,  my  sister  was  his  wife. 

Q.  Were  von  a  member  of  the  household  at  the  time  he  was 
killed? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born? 

A.     I  was  born  in  Cork. 

Q.     Have  you  been  in  Cork  all  your  life? 

A.  Well,  I  have  been  on  the  continent.  I  had  traveled  in  France, 
Spain,  and  Italy,  and  I  came  home  on  a  holiday  just  before  the  war 
started. 

Q.     What  war, — the  great  war? 

A.     The  great  war.  yes. 

Q.     And  vou  have  been  in  Cork  ever  since  that  time? 

A.     Yes.  ' 

Q.     Are  you  engaged  in  some  business  or  some  profession? 

A.  Well,  after  school  I  went  to  France  and  took  up  a  position 
as  a  teacher  of  English  in  a  French  family.  I  had  been  two  years 
in  France,  and  I  came  home,  and  my  mother,  who  did  not  like  my 
being  with  foreigners,  put  me  in  business.  But  I  had  no  taste  for 
business.  And  then  after  that  I  went  to  Spain,  where  I  lived  for 
five  years.  That  young  lady  I  taught  there  learned  English  in  a 
very  short  time,  and  the  gentleman  paid  for  a  trip  for  us  in  France 
and  Italy.  And  I  came  home  to  be  pulled  up  a  bit — my  health  was 
not  good;  but  since  then  I  have  been  pulled  down. 

MANAGED  BUSINESS  DURING  BROTHER-IN-LAW'S 
IMPRISONMENT 

Q.     What  business  are  you  in  now? 

A.  During  my  brother-in-law's  absence  in  prison  he  wrote  to  me 
to  ask  me  to  superintend  his  business.     He  did  a  big  wholesale  flour 


628 

and  feed  business.  I  joined  about  that  time  the  society  called 
Cumann  na  m'Ban,  which  was  formed  for  the  sole  purpose  of  help- 
ing the  Irish  Volunteers.  That  society  of  Cumann  na  m'Ban  was 
formed  by  literary  women  and  working  girls,  and  they  all  did  their 
best  to  help  the  Volunteers.  And  then  my  brother-in-law  asked  me 
to  live  with  his  family  and  manage  their  business. 

EFFECT  OF  MURDER  ON  HEALTH  OF  FAMILY 

Q.  Have  you  photographs  of  your  late  brother-in-law  and  his 
wife? 

A.     My  sister  has  them. 

Q.  I  believe  I  wired  to  your  sister  and  asked  her  to  come  over 
here  and  give  testimony. 

A.  0,  she  could  not  come  on  account  of  her  health.  Shortly 
after  the  murder  she  gave  birth  to  two  babies.  They  had  been  dead 
for  some  time.     And  her  health  is  broken  down. 

Q.     So  she  was  not  able  to  travel? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Is  that  a  true  picture  of  your  brother-in-law? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  a  true  likeness. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  want  to  offer  that  in  evidence  (handing 
photograph  to  Commission).     We  are  having  copies  of  that  made. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  to  look  at  that  photograph  and  say  who  that 
is,  please. 

A.  That  is  my  sister  with  her  little  boy,  who  was  twelve  months 
old. 

Q.     When  was  that  taken? 

A.  That  was  taken  after  the  rising  of  Easter  Week.  Her  hus- 
band wrote  from  prison  and  asked  her  for  the  picture. 

Q.     And  what  is  her  age? 

A.     She  is  thirty-two. 

Q.     What  was  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain's  age? 

A.     Thirty-five  years  of  age  the  day  he  was  buried. 

Q.  Now  look  at  that  picture.  Is  that  a  picture  of  your  sister- 
in-law? 

A.     Yes,  of  my  sister. 

Q.     When  was  that  taken? 

A.     It  was  taken  after  the  murder. 

Q.     What  is  the  health  of  your  sister  now? 

A.  She  is  only  the  mere  shadow  of  her  former  self.  She  will 
never  be  the  same  again.  She  has  aged  terribly.  She  has  gray 
hair  now.     She  is  almost  a  physical  wreck. 

Q.     Whose  picture  is  that? 

A.  That  is  her  little  son,  five  years  old.  We  call  him  Thomas 
Og. 

Q.     That  is,  the  son  of  Thomas? 


629 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  had  a  younger  brother? 

A.  Yes,  he  was  in  prison  for  five  months,  and  then  he  died, 

Q.  Of  what  malady  did  he  die? 

A.  Double  pneumonia. 

Q.  When  he  went  to  prison,  was  he  a  healthy  man? 

A.  Yes,  very;  seventeen  stone  weight  and  a  very  large,  power- 
ful man. 

Q.  Now  you  have  another  brother. 

A.  Yes,  this  is  my  younger  brother   (indicating  photograph). 

Q.  What  is  his  name? 

A.  James  Joseph  Walsh. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now? 

A.  Well,  he  has  been  on  the  run  since  he  gave  evidence  at  the 
inquest  of  my  brother-in-law.     He  cannot  stay  at  home  since  then. 

BUSINESS  ABILITY  OF  MAYOR  MACCURTAIN 

Q.  Miss  Walsh,  in  what  business  was  your  brother-in-law  en- 
gaged?    I  wish  you  would  give  a  short  story  of  him. 

A.  He  started  in  as  a  clerk  in  a  steam  packet  company.  He 
came  from  the  farm  when  he  was  a  mere  boy.  He  had  to  work 
from  six  in  the  morning  until  eight  o'clock  in  the  evening;  and 
after  that  he  went  to  learn  Irish  and  became  proficient  in  it  in  a 
very  short  time.  And  when  he  had  mastered  it  himself,  he  taught 
it  to  others.  He  was  in  the  Gaelic  League,  and  he  taught  at  nights 
at  Blackpool. 

Q.     Where  is  Blackpool? 

A.     It  is  a  suburb  of  Cork. 

Q.     About  how  far  from  the  city? 

A.  About  a  quarter  of  a  mile  outside  of  the  city.  He  taught 
Irish  there  for  two  years  three  nights  a  week.  Two  of  my  sisters 
went  to  this  Gaelic  League.  One  of  them,  Mrs.  MacCurtain,  went 
there  very  regularly.  Up  to  the  time  of  his  death  he  worked  con- 
stantly for  Ireland. 

Q.     He  went  into  business  for  himself  in  the  city  of  Cork? 

A.  Yes,  this  flour  and  mill  store.  He  was  a  very  good  business 
man.     He  took  that  over  and  was  very  successful  for  a  time. 

Q.     What  was  the  name  of  the  business?     He  was  alone  in  it? 

A.     Yes,  it  was  his  own  business.     He  was  alone. 

Q.     Now  just  describe  the  business, — its  size. 

A.  He  bought  and  sold  meal  in  very  large  quantities,  because 
the  majority  of  people  around  that  district  are  all  cattle  feeders. 
So  he  supplied  the  people  of  that  locality  with  flour  and  meal  in 
very  large  quantities. 

Q.     Did  he  have  a  warehouse  in  Cork? 


630 

A.  Not  at  that  time.  That  was  later.  I  will  tell  you  later  why 
he  started  a  factory.  After  Easter  Week  the  British  authorities  tried 
to  ruin  his  business.  He  would  buy  meal  in  large  quantities,  and 
they  would  pike  it,  often  every  sack  of  it. 

Q.     What  do  you  mean  by  piking  it? 

A.  They  would  run  their  bayonets  through  it.  They  said  they 
were  searching  for  arms  and  ammunition.  It  meant  a  terrible  loss, 
for  they  would  pike  the  sacks,  and  the  meal  would  go  all  over  the 
street.  The  result  was  that  when  he  came  out  of  prison,  he  said, 
"This  will  never  do.  I  must  keep  my  family.  And  I  can't  run  the 
business  if  this  goes  on."  So  it  was  a  matter  of  brain  against  brain. 
He  adopted  the  method  of  buying  grain  in  Dublin  and  Belfast  and 
selling  it  direct,  so  that  it  did  not  have  to  touch  the  shop  and  it 
could  not  be  injured.  It  did  not  pay  for  him  to  stand  behind  the 
counter  and  sell  goods.  When  he  came  out  of  prison  the  next  time 
he  got  the  idea  of  starting  this  ladies'  underwear  factory  there. 
And  it  did  very  well. 

Q.     How  many  employees  did  he  have? 

A.  Only  twelve  or  thirteen  at  that  time,  but  since  then  it  has  in- 
creased, and  since  his  death. 

Q.     How  many  hands  now? 

A.     Thirty. 

Q.     Is  it  in  Cork? 

A.     No,  we  have  the  Blackpool  establishment. 

Q.     What  is  the  Blackpool  establishment? 

A.  We  had  the  flour  and  grain  business  there,  and  at  the  back 
is  where  we  had  the  factory. 

Q.  I  think  it  would  be  informative  to  the  Commission  if  you 
would  just  describe  the  occurrences  with  reference  to  your  own 
family  and  your  relations  with  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  beginning 
at  the  first  of  your  relations  and  bringing  it  down  to  the  time  of  his 
death. 

SICK-ROOM  INVADED  BY  ARMED  CONSTABULARY 

A.  Well,  they  started  about  1916.  At  that  time  we  had  taken  a 
nice  suburban  residence  about  two  or  three  miles  outside  of  the 
city,  and  we  had  settled  down  there,  my  sister  and  myself.  Mr. 
MacCurtain  wanted  us  to  go  to  Blackpool,  but  we  didn't  want  to  go 
there,  because  it  was  a  very  big  business  center  and  rather  rough, 
and  we  were  bringing  up  our  niece.  However,  I  will  come  to  that 
later.  We  were  living  there;  and  one  morning  I  was  nursing  my 
sister, — she  had  double  pneumonia,  and  my  mother  had  just  come 
out  of  the  hospital.  I  was  in  the  act  of  making  a  poultice  for  her 
this  morning  when  three  or  four  policemen  broke  into  the  place. 
They  had  fixed  bayonets  and  rifles. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Can  you  give  the  date  of  that? 


631 

A.     I  cannot  say.     It  would  be  in  1916. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    How  long  after  Easter  Week? 

A.     About  three  weeks. 

Q.     What  time  of  day  was  it? 

A.     Oh.  they  never  raided  us  in  the  daytime.     This  was  at  night. 

Q.     What  time  of  night? 

A.  About  three  o'clock  in  the  morning.  I  was  in  the  act  of 
making  the  poultice  for  my  sister,  and  they  came  rushing  in  and 
searched  drawers  and  wardrobes  and  turning  everything  upside- 
down.     And  then  they  went  out. 

Q.     Who  were  they? 

A.     The  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Q.     How  many? 

A.     About  six  of  them. 

Q.     Did  they  carry  arms? 

A.     Yes.  rifles  with  fixed  bayonets. 

Q.     Who  were  there? 

A.  My  mother,  my  sister  Anna,  and  myself.  The  children  were 
in  the  board  school. 

MACCURTAIN  HOME  RAIDED  TWENTY  TIMES 

Well,  that  was  the  first  time.  Then  when  Mr.  MacCurtain  asked 
me  to  run  his  business,  I  thought  I  ought  to  do  it;  it  was  really 
Cumann  na  m'Ban  work.  And  therefore  I  threw  my  heart  and  soul 
into  the  work,  and  did  my  best  to  keep  the  little  place  afloat.  On 
several  occasions  they  raided  that  place. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    The  club  house? 

A.     No,  my  sister's  house  in  Blackpool. 

Q.     There  was  no  club  house  there? 

A.  No,  we  simply  had  our  store  there,  and  lived  over  the  place 
of  business. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  as  near  as  you  can,  approximate  the 
dates  of  these  various  raids.     Just  give  us  all  of  them. 

A.  That  would  be  some  months  after  this.  My  brother-in-law 
was  in  jail  at  the  time.  They  were  arrested  after  the  rebellion  of 
Easter  Week.  There  was  no  charge  against  him.  And  there  was 
no  uprising  in  Cork  at  all.  He  was  deported  to  England  to  Read- 
ing Jail,  and  from  there  to  Frongach,  a  place  in  Wales.  It  was 
used  during  the  war  time  as  a  place  for  German  prisoners,  but  not 
considered  a  fit  place  for  prisoners.  But  they  thought  it  was  good 
enough  for  our  men,  and  shoved  them  all  in  there. 

Q.  How  many  times  was  your  home  raided  after  the  killing  of 
the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     I  should  say  at  least  twenty  times. 

Q.     Twenty  times? 


632 

A.     Yes,  twenty  times  at  least. 

Q.  Now,  you  might  epitomize,  if  you  will,  by  giving  us  an  ac- 
count of  these  various  raids. 

A.  '  They  were  always  at  the  dead  of  night  by  the  members  of 
the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.  They  were  never  until  twelve  o'clock 
nor  after  four  in  the  morning;  and  we  were  generally  asleep,  need- 
less to  say,  at  that  time. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    What  did  they  raid  the  house  for? 

A.  I  do  not  really  know.  Sometimes  for  arms  and  ammunition, 
they  said.  Sometimes  they  would  not  give  us  any  reason  at  all  for 
breaking  into  our  place. 

Q.     Did  they  search  for  any  documents? 

A.     Sometimes  they  would  break  into  bookcases  and  the  like. 

Q.     Were  there  ever  any  arms  in  your  house? 

A.     0,  never. 

Q.     Did  they  ever  take  away  any  papers? 

A.  Well,  I  think  they  took  away  copies  of  The  Irish  Irelander, 
as  it  was  called  at  that  time.  It  was  a  paper  published  by  the  Irish 
Republican  Party. 

Q.  Now  you  may  proceed  and  give  an  account  of  these  raids  on 
the  house. 

POLICE  MAKE  RAID  TO   EXAMINE  HOUSE 
PRECEDING  MURDER 

A.  On  one  occasion,  three  days  before  one  of  Mrs.  MacCurtain's 
babies  was  born  and  a  few  days  after  the  burial  of  another,  they 
raided  the  house.  And  despite  the  fact  that  she  was  in  bed,  they 
made  a  thorough  search  of  the  room.  The  last  raid  was  about  a 
month  before  the  murder  of  my  brother-in-law.  The  strange  thing 
was  that  they  did  not  seem  to  be  looking  for  documents,  but  they 
seemed  to  be  examining  the  house  thoroughly  and  taking  measure- 
ments. 

Q.     Did  they  examine  the  whole  house? 

A.     Yes,  upstairs  and  downstairs  and  in  the  factory. 

Q.     How  many  were  on  that  raid? 

A.  There  were  six  of  them  I  saw  upstairs.  I  don't  know  how 
many  more  of  them  there  were. 

Q.     All  with  rifles  and  bayonets? 

A.     With  rifles  and  bayonets,  yes. 

Q.     And  all  members  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

A.     Yes,  all  members  of  the  R.  I.  C. 

HEALTH   SHATTERED   BY   REPEATED   RAIDS  AND 
TERRORISM 

Q.  What  effect  did  that  have  on  the  health  of  the  members  of 
your  family? 


633 

A.  Well,  it  meant  that  it  undermined  our  health.  My  mother 
was  an  invalid  and  my  sister  was  an  invalid.  And  I  am  only  a 
shadow  of  my  former  self. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    How  much  weight  have  you  lost? 

A.     I  have  lost  ahout  twenty  pounds. 

Q.     In  what  time? 

A.     Since  1916. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  During  all  those  years  have  you  ever  had 
sufficient  sleep,  for  instance? 

A.  No,  for  the  past  eight  months  I  had  not  had  a  good  night's 
rest. 

Q.     That  applies  to  your  sister? 

A.     Yes,  to  Mrs.  MacCurtain  too. 

Q.     How  many  children  has  Mrs.  MacCurtain? 

A.     Five.     She  buried  one  boy. 

Q.     Give  the  names  of  these  children,  please,  and  their  ages. 

A.  There  is  Siboan  Eta,  who  is  ten;  Shina,  seven;  Thomas  Og, 
he  is  five;  Maun  is  three;  and  Eiblis,  the  baby. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  What  would  the  equivalents  be  in  our  own 
language? 

A.  That  is  a  thing  we  are  very  loath  to  do, — to  translate  Irish 
into  English.  But,  however,  for  the  benefit  of  the  gentlemen  I  will 
translate  them. 

Miss  Anna  Walsh:  Mr.  MacCurtain  was  opposed  to  having  the 
names  of  his  children  pronounced  in  English. 

Miss  Susanna  Walsh:  Perhaps  I  can  pronounce  them  phoneti- 
cally. Yes,  that  was  one  thing  he  wanted  to  do, — that  all  the  chil- 
dren should  converse  fluently  in  their  Irish  language. 

Miss  Anna  Walsh:  He  would  rather  that  their  names  were  not 
even  pronounced  in  English. 

Senator  Walsh :  She  said  she  had  not  had  a  good  night's  rest  for 
eight  months.     Please  describe  that. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    Please  describe  that. 

A.  Well,  the  Black-and-Tans  come  out  at  ten  o'clock  when  the 
curfew  comes  on.  The  motor  lorries  will  go  up  and  down  all  night 
long.  And  sometimes  there  is  a  bomb  explosion.  You  never  know 
when  they  are  coming  to  raid  your  house  and  explode  a  bomb.  You 
can't  sleep  very  well  in  those  conditions. 

LORD  MAYOR  BRUTALLY  MURDERED  BEFORE 
FAMILY 

Q.  At  what  date  was  the  death  of  the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.  The  twentieth  of  March. 

Q.  1920? 

A.  Yes,  this  year. 


634 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  detail  that  and  give  the  circumstances. 
You  were  in  the  house  then? 

A.     Yes,  I  was  in  the  house  at  that  time. 

Q.     How  many  were  in  the  household? 

A.  We  were  all  living  there  then.  There  were  fourteen.  We 
had  three  orphaned  nieces  there  too. 

Q.     What  were  the  ages  of  these  children? 

A.     One  was  sixteen,  a  girl  of  fourteen,  and  a  boy  of  eleven. 

Q.     Just  describe  the  inmates  of  the  house,  who  they  were. 

A.  There  was  another  sister.  She  had  charge  of  those,  and  I 
took  care  of  the  three  oldest  children,  Siboan  Eta,  Shina,  and 
Thomas  Og.  And  my  sister  Anna  occupied  the  back  room  on  the 
second  story,  and  my  brother  James  the  back  room  on  the  opposite 
side  of  my  sister's.  And  downstairs  my  mother  slept,  because  she 
was  an  invalid,  and  we  gave  her  the  room  on  the  first  floor.  And 
adjoining  that  was  Mr.  MacCurtain's  bedroom.  And  they  had  the 
little  baby  in  the  cot  in  the  corner  by  their  bed.  And  they  heard  a 
slight  knock  at  the  door.     It  was  about  one  o'clock. 

Q.  How  long  was  this  after  that  last  raid  where  they  appeared 
to  be  examining  the  house? 

A.  About  one  month.  There  was  a  slight  knock  at  the  door 
about  one  o'clock  or  quarter  past  one.  Mrs.  MacCurtain  heard  it, 
and  she  put  her  head  out  of  the  window  and  called  to  them  to  find 
out  what  they  wanted.  And  they  said,  "Open  the  house  quickly  or 
we  will  break  the  door  in."  Mr.  MacCurtain  wanted  to  go  down. 
He  said,  "I  will  go,  Mary."  And  she  said,  "No,  you  mustn't.  I 
will  go  down."  But  before  she  could  get  down  to  the  door,  it  was 
bursted  in.  Eight  or  nine  men  rushed  in,  with  blackened  faces  and 
long  coats,  and  caught  her.  Several  of  them  held  her,  and  the  rest 
rushed  upstairs.  At  the  same  time, — I  had  a  little  red  coat  I  used  to 
throw  over  me,  and  I  went  out  to  the  top  of  the  landing.  I  heard 
the  noise  downstairs,  and  I  heard  the  baby  cry,  and  I  ran  down- 
stairs to  take  the  baby,  for  I  knew  that  my  brother-in-law  would  be 
in  a  terrible  way.  And  I  arrived  at  the  first  landing  just  as  two 
big  men  with  blackened  faces  and  big  rain  coats  on  them  got  to 
his  door.  And  I  heard  the  first  man  say,  "Come  out,  Curtain!" 
And  my  brother-in-law  said,  "Give  me  time  to  dress.  I  am  not  yet 
ready."  When  my  brother-in-law  said,  "Give  me  time  to  dress." 
I  said,  "Give  me  the  baby,  please."  And  they  pushed  me  back. 
And  I  ran  back  to  the  bath  room,  and  I  heard  my  sister  shout, 
"Murder,  murder,  the  police  are  murdering  us  all."  And  a  neigh- 
bor woman  who  lives  next  door  said,  "Who  is  shot?"  And  she 
said,  "My  brother-in-law,  MacCurtain.  The  police  are  murdering 
us  all."  I  rushed  upstairs.  I  thought  1  would  die  with  all  of  them. 
And  as  I  went  upstairs  I  heard  heavy  moaning  in  the  corner,  and  I 


635 

looked,  and  mv  brother-in-law  lay  just  outside  his  door  with  blood 
oozing  from  the  region  of  his  heart. 

Q.     Just  one  moment.     Did  you  hear  the  shots  fired'.'' 

A.     Yes.  I  heard  the  shots. 

Q.     How  many  were  there? 

A.     Two  shots  first,  and  then  one.     So  I  heard  him  moaning. 

Q.     Where  was  your  brother-in-law? 

A.     Just  in  the  corner  outside  the  door. 

Q.     Outside  the  door  or  outside  the  house? 

A.     Outside  the  door  of  his  bedroom. 

Q.     Still  in  the  house? 

A.  Still  in  the  house.  Yes.  My  conclusion  was  that  when  he 
came  out  they  shot  him  immediately.  The  people  around  the  com- 
munity were  taking  up  the  cry,  and  women  were  yelling.  This 
woman  I  mentioned  came  out  to  shout  for  assistance  and  calling  for 
a  priest,  and  a  big  man  with  a  blackened  face  shoved  a  revolver  in 
her  face  and  said.  "Get  out  of  this."  My  brother  upstairs  thought 
he  was  to  be  arrested,  and  he  was  dressing  too,  and  came  down  the 
stairs  with  a  candle  in  his  hand;  and  when  he  heard  the  shots  he 
put  out  the  candle  and  fell  back  on  the  stairs.  If  it  had  not  been 
for  that,  I  am  sure  that  they  would  have  shot  him  too. 

At  that  time  my  sister,  Mrs.  MacCurtain,  was  hysterical,  and  the 
poor  children  were  crying;  and  my  brother  was  trying  to  control 
them,  and  keep  them  from  going  down ;  because  when  Mrs.  Mac- 
Curtain  shouted  for  help  from  the  window,  they  had  fired  at  her. 
You  can  see  the  bullet  marks  yet  over  the  window.  And  if  my 
brother  had  stuck  his  head  outside  the  window  to  get  help,  he  would 
surely  have  been  shot  too.  So  my  brother  came  downstairs  and 
said,  "Tom,  my  boy,  you  are  only  wounded.  You  are  only  wounded. 
It  will  be  all  right."  Little  Maura  was  terrified,  and  the  baby  was 
crying.  So  I  took  the  little  baby  and  was  sitting  at  the  end  of  the 
staircase,  and  my  sister  put  her  hand  under  his  head,  and  made  the 
sign  of  the  cross  on  him,  and  I  ran  for  the  crucifix.  And  my  brother 
ran  into  the  bedroom,  because  there  was  a  sound  of  breaking  glass. 
— there  was  another  shot  fired  at  the  window,  breaking  a  pane  of 
glass.  Then  he  came  back  and  said,  "My  God,  he  is  done,  he  is 
done."  And  then  he  said,  "But  Tom,  you  are  dying  for  Ireland.' 
My  sister  came  up  and  saw  him.  and  ran  down  and  telephoned  t<> 
the  exchange  to  send  a  priest  at  once.  They  asked  if  she  wanted  a 
doctor,  and  she  said  yes.  but  to  send  the  priest  at  once.  Dr.  O'Con- 
nor, who  lives  near,  came  over,  but  there  was  little  he  could  do. 
When  my  sister  saw  that  he  was  dying,  she  said,  "Jesus,  Jesus,  take 
him.  Have  mercy  on  us."  And  then  the  priest  came.  However, 
he  died  after  a  quarter  of  an  hour.  So  an  hour  after  the  shots  rang 
out  we  laid  him  on  the  bed. 


636 

STRICKEN  FAMILY  SUBJECTED  TO  SECOND  RAID 

And  we  had  just  said  the  Rosary  when  there  was  a  stamping  down 
in  the  room.  And  my  sister  said,  "Who  is  there?"  and  they  said, 
"The  military.  Open."  And  she  opened  the  door,  and  they  rushed 
in  and  they  came  upstairs  and  rushed  over  to  the  bed;  and  I  had 
the  crucifix  in  my  hands,  and  I  said,  "Have  you  come  to  murder 
anybody  else?  May  the  Lord  stay  your  hands."  Then  they  began 
to  search  everything;  they  pulled  out  drawers  and  searched  every 
part  of  the  house  thoroughly,  and  then  went  away,  giving  no  excuse 
whatever.  I  believe  that  the  following  day  a  question  arose  in  Par- 
liament about  it.  The  Chief  Secretary,  I  believe,  is  reported  to  have 
said  that  they  went  to  search  for  arms.  And  almost  simultaneously 
the  General  at  the  Cork  barracks  said  they  went  to  arrest  the  mur- 
derers. But  if  they  had  gone  to  look  for  the  murderers,  they  would 
not  have  searched  the  drawers.  I  really  think  it  was  a  made-up 
plan  by  the  police  to  use  the  military  to  cover  up  the  murder. 

Q.  You  might  describe  that  neighborhood.  It  was  in  Black- 
pool? 

A.     Yes,  it  was  in  Blackpool. 

Q.     There  are  a  number  of  houses  around? 

A.  Yes,  there  are  quite  a  number  of  houses  around;  and  behind 
it  there  is  a  large  street  leading  up  to  the  back  of  the  military  bar- 
racks. 

Q.     How  far  are  you  from  the  barracks? 

A.     It  would  be  about  a  mile  leading  up  to  the  barracks. 

Q.     Is  it  a  place  generally  patrolled? 

A.  Well,  the  police  generally  patrolled  our  place  since  Easter 
Week.  They  made  it  a  constant  practice  to  walk  up  and  down  out- 
side of  the  house  to  intimidate  customers. 

POLICE  ALLEGED  TO  HAVE  MURDERED  COMRADE 
WHO  REFUSED  TO  KILL  LORD  MAYOR 

Q.     Now,  go  back  a  bit.     Had  there  been  any  violence  to  the 
police,  any  police  or  military  killed  previous  to  this  date? 
No,  not  one.    Not  one. 

What  was  the  date  of  the  killing  of  your  brother-in-law? 
My  brother-in-law? 
Yes. 

It  was  the  20th  of  March. 
Commissioner  Addams:    1920? 

Yes,  1920.     I  think  there  was  a  police  killed  that  night. 
Prior  to  that  date  there  had  not  been  any  policemen  shot 


A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

there? 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:    Who  was  the  policeman  shot  that  night? 
What  was  his  name? 


637 

A.     I  believe  it  was  Constable  Murtagh,  I  believe. 

Q.     When  was  he  shot? 

A.     About  a  half  mile  from  our  house. 

Q.     But  the  same  night? 

A.     The  same  night,  yes. 

Q.     At  what  time? 

A.     About  11  o'clock,  I  think. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:    In  what  direction  from  where  you  lived? 

A.     Toward  the  center  of  town  from  where  we  live. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  there  anything  especially  objectionable 
about  the  conduct  of  this  policeman  that  made  him  objectionable  to 
the  population? 

A.  No.  We  have  to  go  by  rumors;  and  there  was  a  rumor  that 
he  had  been  ordered  to  murder  the  Lord  Mayor,  and  he  refused  to 
do  it.  and  that  he  had  been  shot  by  his  own. 

Q.  So  the  rumor  was  that  this  policeman  who  was  murdered 
that  night  had  been  ordered  to  shoot  Mayor  MacCurtain,  and  had 
refused  to  do  so,  and  was  shot  by  his  fellow  officers  to  give  them  an 
excuse  for  the  murder  of  the  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  it. 

Q.  Was  this  officer  supposed  to  be  friendly  to  the  Sinn  Fein 
organization? 

A.     I  do  not  know  about  that. 

Q.     Had  that  matter  been  investigated  by  the  Sinn  Fein  leaders? 

A.     I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  the  British  authorities  investigate  the  murder  of  that 
policeman? 

A.  I  believe  they  did.  But  you  see,  we  had  so  much  trouble  in 
our  family  at  that  time  that  I  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  these 
outside  matters.  My  whole  time  was  spent  in  trying  to  take  care  of 
our  own  household. 

Senator  Walsh:  It  would  be  very  valuable  if  a  connection  could 
be  made  between  the  British  authorities  shooting  that  policeman 
and  pretending  it  was  done  by  the  leaders  of  the  Republican  move- 
ment. 

The  Witness:    I  have  no  direct  evidence  at  all  of  that. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    That  was  only  rumor. 

A.     Yes,  it  was  the  rumor. 

POLICE  CREATE  ONLY  LAWLESSNESS  IN  CORK 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Wralsh:  What  sort  of  community  was  that  before 
these  raids  began?     Was  it  a  peaceful  community? 

A.  Well,  we  never  heard  of  any  crimes  at  all  there.  As  a  mat- 
ter of  fact,  if  there  had  been  any  murder  in  Ireland,  we  did  not 
hear  of  it.     We  never  heard  of  a  murder  in  our  city  for  years  be- 


fore  that.  If  there  were,  the  papers  would  have  been  kept  from  us 
because  it  was  too  terrible  to  see. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Had  there  been  any  disorders  or  killings 
of  police  prior  to  the  night  that  the  Lord  Mayor  was  killed? 

A.  0,  yes,  there  was  one  matter  that  occurs  to  me.  On  the  night 
of  the  tenth  of  March  there  was  a  Sinn  Fein  Club  broken  into.  A 
widow  with  seven  children,  Mrs.  Honan,  was  in  charge  of  that,  and 
she  testified  that  it  was  policemen  in  uniform  who  did  that.  And 
they  held  a  revolver  to  the  head  of  her  little  boy,  ten  years  old,  and 
said  if  they  found  any  more  Sinn  Feiners  coming  around  there,  he 
would  be  shot.  And  the  same  night  they  went  to  the  Sinn  Fein 
headquarters  in  the  Grand  Parade,  one  of  the  principal  streets  of 
Cork,  and  they  destroyed  everything  there  that  night,  and  they  fired 
shots  all  over  the  city.  The  same  night  a  short  time  after  that  they 
went  to  a  prominent  Republican  leader's  house,  Alderman  John 
O'Sullivan,  and  ^rey  brought  out  his  son,  and  when  they  got  him 
out  they  said,  "That  is  the  young  man.  That  is  not  he."  They  were 
dressed  in  uniform,  too.  So  evidently  if  John  O'Sullivan  had  been 
at  home,  he  would  have  met  the  same  fate  as  my  brother-in-law. 
My  brother-in-law  mentioned  at  one  of  the  corporation  meetings 
that  if  the  policemen  did  not  keep  law  and  order,  they  would  see 
that  their  men  did  so;  that  it  would  not  do  for  armed  men  to  be 
coming  in  at  all  hours  of  the  day  and  night  and  terrifying  women 
and  children.  v 

Q.     So  he  made  this  open  speech  in  the  council,  did  he? 

A.     Yes,  he  did. 

Q.     Major  Newman:    What  did  he  say? 

A.  He  said  that  it  was  disgraceful  conduct  for  these  men  who 
were  supposed  to  be  keeping  law  and  order  in  the  city  to  be  going 
around  terrifying  women  and  children,  and  that  if  they  could  not 
keep  order,  his  men  would.  Some  said  that  that  got  him  into 
trouble. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  to  make  the  information  perfectly 
clear,  the  information  that  Senator  Walsh  desired,  except  the  dis- 
orders on  this  evening,  had  there  been  any  disorders  or  conflict  be- 
tween the  people  and  the  police,  or  between  the  inhabitants  of  Black- 
pool? 

A.     0,  no.     None  whatever. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  In  other  words,  you  do  not  know  of  any 
alleged  attack  being  made  by  Volunteers  of  the  Republican  Army 
upon  police  officers  except  what  you  have  named  up  to  the  time  of 
the  killing  of  your  brother? 

A.     No,  none  that  I  ever  heard  of. 


639' 

EVIDENCE  IMPLICATING  POLICE  IN   MURDER  OF 
LORD  MAYOR 

Q.  Major  Newman:  The  men  who  came  to  your  house  with 
their  faces  blackened,  were  they  military  or  police  or  Black-and- 
Tans? 

A.  Well,  we  do  not  know  anything  about  that,  but  they  spoke 
like  members  of  the  R.  I.  C.  They  had  a  most  peculiar  accent.  We 
call  it  the  Depot  accent.  And  another  thing  that  struck  us  when 
we  came  to  our  senses  was  that  they  were  so  familiar  with  the  place. 
They  had  no  difficulty  in  getting  upstairs  to  the  door  of  his  room; 
and  there  is  a  most  intricate  staircase  leading  up  to  that  door.  As  & 
matter  of  fact,  anybody  who  came  in  from  the  store  could  not  see 
that  staircase, — it  is  to  the  side.  And  they  knew  where  it  was,  and 
came  right  up  and  went  to  his  door.  And  then  at  the  inquest  it  was 
brought  out  that  a  lamplighter  saw  them  going  into  the  King  Street 
police  barracks,  and  the  time  that  they  went  into  there  would  just 
about  have  given  them  time  to  get  there  after  committing  the  mur- 
der. 

Q.  Was  there  any  man  who  seemed  to  be  in  command  of  the 
group? 

A.  Well,  there  was  one  man  who  seemed  to  be  in  command. 
But  there  were  groups  of  fifteen  to  twenty  or  thirty  everywhere 
around  about  Blackpool  that  night,  so  probably  the  whole  R.  I.  C. 
was  out.  There  was  one  old  man  coming  out  of  his  place  shortly 
before  the  shooting  at  our  house,  and  he  was  caught  by  two  men 
with  police  rifles  and  thrown  on  the  ground  and  trampled  on  and 
injured,  and  told  not  to  stir.  And  then  there  were  two  men  who 
were  going  up  the  street  near  the  house,  and  they  were  stopped  and 
turned  around  and  told  not  to  go  that  way  by  a  body  of  men  in  long 
rain  coats.  That  was  shortly  after  one  o'clock,  just  before  the  shoot- 
ing at  our  house. 

Senator  Walsh:  Major,  while  you  were  not  here  at  the  time,  the 
record  already  contains  elaborate  information  about  the  details  of 
the  inquest  and  how  men  were  stopped  on  the  streets  going  up  to 
the  house.1 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  am  told  that  there  was  a  policeman's  but- 
ton found  at  the  house.    Please  tell  about  that. 

A.  Yes,  my  brother  saw  a  button  picked  up  by  the  door,  and  he 
said,  "What  is  that?"  And  they  said,  "It  is  a  button."  And  he  said, 
"Give  me  that  button."  And  it  was  a  policeman's  button.  And  then 
the  bullet  that  lodged  in  the  body,  and  another  that  went  into  the 
wall  were  both  found  to  be  police  bullets. 


Testimony  of  Miss  Mary  MacSwiney,  p.  343. 


640 

JEWS,  PROTESTANTS,  AND  CATHOLICS  UNITE  IN 
TRIBUTE  TO  LORD  MAYOR 

E 

Q.  Now,  it  is  said  that  the  religious  question  projects  into  this 
matter.  How  were  you  and  the  MacCurtain  family  among  your 
neighbors  in  Cork  on  the  matter  of  religious  differences? 

A.  There  is  never  a  difference  of  that  kind  in  Cork,  or  in  the 
Irish  Republic  up  to  this  time.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  some  of  the 
leaders  of  the  Republic  and  of  the  Republican  Army  are  Protes- 
tants. 

Q.  I  understand  that  all  classes  joined  in  the  funeral  of  your 
brother. 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  the  Protestant  Bishop  in  Cork? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  the  Jewish  population  was  represented,  led  by  the 
Rabbi? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh :  Did  these  bodies  march  the  whole  way  to 
the  cemetery? 

A.  Yes,  they  did, — the  Protestant  bishop  and  the  Jewish  rabbi 
followed  by  their  people. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  The  Protestant  bishop  of  the  Church  of 
Ireland? 

A.     Yes,  he  is  a  Protestant,  Bishop  Dowse. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Was  he  a  bishop  of  the  Church  of  England? 

A.     Well,  I  am  not  up  on  church  matters  in  those  churches. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  All  the  others  were  represented, — Meth- 
odists, Baptists,  and  all  the  other  bodies  were  represented  at  the 
funeral? 

A.     Yes,  they  were. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  As  to  Mr.  Howe's  question,  I  believe  that 
the  Church  of  Ireland  is  sometimes  called  incorrectly  the  Church  of 
England.  They  are  on  a  different  basis  as  regards  support,  but  both 
churches  are  Episcopal. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  believe  you  have  testimony  concerning 
the  inquest? 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  we  have  that  already  in  the  record: 

(To  the  Witness)  :  You  attended  the  inquest? 

A.  Yes,  I  did.  And  I  have  with  me  the  report  of  the  evidence 
given  at  the  inquest,  and  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:   Have  you  a  printed  copy? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  produced  in  this  edition  of  the  Evening  Echo  of 
Cork,  Saturday,  April  17,  1920. 

Q.     Does   that   contain   a   full    account   of  the   testimony   at   the 


641 

A.  It  contains  a  summary  of  the  evidence  by  the  Crown  Solicitor 
and  by  our  solicitor,  Mr.  Lynch,  and  the  verdict  of  the  jury.1 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Is  there  anything  you  want  to  add  to  that 
account? 

A.     No,  there  is  nothing  I  know  of. 

SINN  FEIN  "EXTREMISTS"  A  PURE  FABRICATION 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Perhaps  Mr.  Walsh  is  going  to  bring 
this  out  in  the  evidence,  but  there  was  some  rumor  that  Mr.  Lloyd 
George  or  some  cabinet  member  declared  that  the  murder  might 
have  been  committed  by  some  extremists  of  the  Sinn  Fein  faction. 
Can  you  give  us  anything  on  this  subject?  2 

A.  Well,  there  is  no  such  thing  as  extremists  in  the  Irish  Re- 
publican movement.  We  are  all  Republicans.  There  are  no  ex- 
tremists in  it. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  But  Lloyd  George  said,  did  he  not, 
that  in  order  to  make  a  sensation  some  extremists  had  committed 
the  murder? 

A.     Oh,  no;  not  at  all. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That,  in  your  judgment,  was  a  pure 
fabrication? 

A.     Yes,  undoubtedly. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  There  was  an  intimation  that  your  brother- 
in-law  had  in  some  way  incurred  the  displeasure  of  the  Republican 
Volunteers,  and  that  there  had  been  a  meeting  held,  and  something 
like  that.     Was  there  any  truth  in  that  at  all? 

A.     Oh,  no;  none  at  all. 

UNIVERSAL  AFFECTION  FOR  LORD  MAYOR 

Q.     How  was  your  brother-in-law  regarded? 

A.  Oh,  they  adored  him.  People  who  differed  from  him  politi- 
cally adored  him  too.  Even  the  ex-soldiers  who  were  represented 
on  the  City  Council  asked  us  if  at  the  funeral  we  would  allow  them 
to  play  their  band.  And  there  was  an  Alderman  Beamish,  a  Union- 
ist, who  broke  down  and  cried  when  the  corporation  passed  its 
resolutions  of  sympathy.  The  Unionists  loved  him  too.  This  Eve- 
ning Echo  always  praised  the  way  he  handled  the  city's  business. 

Q.     What  is  the  politics  of  this  Evening  Echo? 

A.  They  are  what  is  called  Mollies.  They  are  followers  of  the 
late  Mr.  Redmond. 


1  The  full  verdict  is  given  on  p.  362. 

2  This  insinuation  was  made  by  General  French,  Lord  Lieutenant  of  Ire- 
land.   See  pp.  343,  659-660,  and  Report  of  Commission,  pp.  37-39. 


642 

HIS  PERSONAL  CHARACTERISTICS 

Q.     Just  describe  what  kind  of  a  man  the  late  Lord  Mayor  was. 

A.  Well,  he  was  very  quiet  and  very  gracious  to  everybody.  In 
the  twelve  years  that  he  was  married  to  my  sister  he  seemed  to  get 
along  well  with  all  classes  and  everybody. 

Q.     Was  he,  or  was  he  not,  a  man  with  a  kindly  disposition? 

A.     Yes,  very,  very  kindly. 

Q.     Was  he  anything  of  a  literary  man? 

A.  Well,  he  was  never  looked  upon  as  a  literary  man,  but  he 
wrote  some  beautiful  verses;  and  a  great  Irish  literary  scholar  said 
that  there  was  the  most  beautiful  Irish  in  those  verses  that  he  had 
ever  read.  But  he  could  not  follow  that  career,  having  married  at 
twenty,  and  a  family  to  take  care  of.  He  had  uphill  work  all  of 
the  time. 

Q.     He  was  a  very  energetic  man? 

A.     Yes,  he  was  very  energetic. 

Q.     And  a  man  who  loved  his  family? 

A.  Yes,  indeed,  he  loved  his  family.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the 
night  before,  he  was  sitting  with  his  children,  and  he  had  one  baby 
at  one  side  pulling  down  on  him  and  loving  him,  and  another  one 
pulling  down  on  the  other  side  and  loving  him,  and  when  Mrs. 
MacCurtain  called  him  to  his  supper,  he  said,  "I'm  having  such  a 
good  time  I  don't  want  to  leave."  He  promised  them  a  party  when 
he  could  give  time  to  it;  but  he  was  always  on  the  run  and  could 
not.  And  they  said  when  he  got  to  be  Lord  Mayor  that  he  must  give 
them  a  big  party.  He  was  always  like  a  child  with  them.  He  would 
get  his  violin  and  play  for  them  and  amuse  them.  And  we  always 
said  if  the  city  could  only  see  the  Lord  Mayor  and  how  he  amused 
his  children,  everybody  would  laugh. 

Q.     Was  he  a  young-looking  man? 

A.     Yes,  he  looked  like  a  boy. 

ELECTED  BY  TREMENDOUS  MAJORITY 

Q.     How  long  was  he  Lord  Mayor? 

A.  It  was  just  three  months  from  his  election  to  the  time  of  his 
death.  He  was  elected  by  something  like  five  to  one — one  of  the 
biggest  majorities  ever  given  in  the  city. 

Q.     And  the  women  voted? 

A.  Yes,  they  did.  They  were  enthusiastic.  I  think  they  helped 
to  put  him  in. 

Q.     Was  that  the  first  time  that  the  women  voted  in  the  city? 

A.     Yes,  that  was  the  first  time. 

Q.     What  part  did  the  women  take  in  the  campaign? 

A.  This  Cumann  na  m'Ban  Society  that  I  spoke  of  was  very 
active.  During  election  time  they  prepared  meals  for  the  men.  Of 
course,  a  certain  number  of  men  came  in  from  the  country,  and  we 


643 

prepared  meals  for  them  and  took  them  around.  And  other  men 
could  not  leave  the  polling  place;  and  we  prepared  meals  for  them 
and  took  them  to  them. 

Q.     Were  there  a  number  of  working  men? 

A.  Yes,  a  number  of  them  were,  and  they  could  not  get  off  at 
that  time.  But  the  ex-soldiers  in  the  city  were  supplied  by  the 
British  Government  with  plenty  of  beer. 

Q.     Did  the  ex-soldiers  represent  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes,  the  British  Government  tried  to  use  the  ex-soldiers. 

Q.     Did  those  women  do  any  work  with  them? 

A.  Yes.  I  think  the  women  were  chiefly  responsible  for  what 
was  clone  among  them. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  unless  there  are  questions  as  to  what  took 
place  up  to  the  killing  of  her  brother-in-law,  I  would  like  to  go  to 
something  else. 

Commissioner  Addams:  No,  there  is  nothing  else. 

LORD  MAYOR'S  OFFICE  SACKED  AND  BURNED 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Did  your  brother-in-law  take  offices  down 
town  after  his  election  as  Lord  Mayor? 

A.     Yes,  he  took  offices  in  the  Grand  Parade. 

Q.     Is  that  one  of  the  best  streets? 

A.     Yes;   it  is  chiefly  solicitors,  lawyers,  and  business  men. 

Q.     Are  there  store  buildings  in  the  Grand  Parade? 

A.     Not  very  many. 

Q.     The  lawyers  have  offices  in  dwelling  houses,  do  they  not? 

A.     In  dwelling  houses,  yes. 

Q.     Describe  his  life  there. 

A.  He  took  offices  there.  And  the  place  was  raided;  and  about 
a  month  before  my  leaving,  the  whole  place  was  set  on  fire. 

Q.     Describe  how  they  did  that. 

A.  They  told  the  woman  upstairs  that  they  would  give  her  five 
minutes  to  get  out;  and  she  did.  And  they  poured  petrol  on  it  and 
set  fire  to  it,  and  everything  was  destroyed.  There  was  some  very 
valuable  furniture  downstairs. 

Q.     Did  you  leave  before  the  big  fire  in  Cork? 

A.     Well,  that  evening  I  left  for  Cove. 

Q.     Was  your  home  burned? 

A.  Well,  we  do  not  know  whether  we  are  homeless  or  not.  That 
is  one  thing  we  want  to  know — whether  our  home  was  among  the 
places  destroyed. 

Q.     Was  it  in  your  locality? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know.  We  just  got  word  from  some  passengers 
that  a  number  of  private  houses  and  business  houses  had  been 
destroyed. 


644 

CONTINUED  RAIDS,  VANDALISM,  THEFT,  AND 
ATTEMPTED  MURDER 

Q.     Were  there  any  further  raids  on  your  Blackpool  home? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  several  times.  Mrs.  Mat-Curtain  had  taken  a  place 
in  a  quieter  locality,  and  she  heard  the  very  next  morning  that  her 
place  in  Blackpool  had  been  broken  into  after  it  had  been  sealed. 
One  of  the  windows  was  broken  in,  and  the  neighbors  said  that  men 
in  kilts,  the  Scotch  soldiers,  had  broken  into  it,  and  shouted  upstairs 
for  us  to  come  down.  No  one  was  there.  I  was  in  London  at  that 
time.  Mrs.  MacCurtain  went  down  to  see  about  it.  The  locks  were 
all  broken  off;  they  had  made  a  thorough  search  of  the  house,  and 
had  gone  through  the  trunks.  A  photograph  of  Lord  Mayor  Mac- 
Swiney  and  a  picture  of  the  signing  of  the  proclamation  of  the  Irish 
Republic  in  1916  were  both  torn  and  broken.  The  boy  in  the  office 
had  left  two  pence  and  two  farthings  and  some  stamps  in  the  shop 
drawer,  and  they  were  taken.  And  my  niece's  mandolin  was  taken. 
Mrs.  MacCurtain  went  upstairs,  and  she  was  only  there  a  short  time 
when  she  came  down  and  went  into  the  garden,  when  a  bullet 
whizzed  past  her  head.1  And  she  could  not  live  there.  She  asked 
me  to  take  over  the  business  because  of  reverence  for  my  brother- 
in-law  and  the  place  where  he  died.  I  did  so.  And  one  night  some 
small  men  dressed  in  mufti,  evidently  officers,  came;  and  one  of  the 
men  rushed  past  me  and  pointed  a  revolver  in  my  face,  and  asked 
me  who  were  living  there  and  what  I  was  doing  there. 

Q.     Commissioner  Addams:    This  was  in  Blackpool? 

A.  Yes.  They  rushed  past  me  and  went  into  the  house  and 
pulled  open  drawers;  and  I  heard  one  of  the  men  say  to  the  officer, 
"He  is  not  here."  I  thought  they  were  looking  for  my  brother, 
because  he  received  a  letter  saying  that  he  was  a  dead  man.  Going 
out  of  the  side  door  up  into  the  factory,  there  was  a  little  boy  em- 
ployed in  the  factory,  and  he  came  on  down  to  shut  the  door.  And 
they  said,  "Hands  up!"  and  searched  him,  and  said,  "Lead  the  way." 
And  they  went  back  into  the  factory.  And  the  man  said  to  me, 
"Who  is  running  this  place?"  And  I  said,  "I  am,  the  past  month 
or  so."  And  he  said,  "Do  you  keep  any  men  here?"  And  I  said, 
"No."  And  I  said,  "Might  I  ask  you  whom  you  are  looking  for?" 
And  he  said,  "A  friend."  And  I  said,  "It  is  a  queer  way  of  looking 
for  a  friend  with  a  revolver."  And  he  said,  "Oh,  no;  we  don't  take 
life.  We  did  not  start  it."  And  then  they  went  outside  the  door. 
There  was  a  lorry  there  with  soldiers. 


1  This  attempt  on  the  life  of  Mrs.  MacCurtain  occurred  immediately 
after  the  Commission  had  cabled  her  an  invitation  to  come  and  testify 
before  it.  The  Commission  brought  the  incident  to  the  attention  of 
the  Britsh  Ambassador  in  Washington,  who  had  promised  that  his 
government  would  take  no  steps  against  witnesses. 


645 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  You  might  describe  the  occurrences  fol- 
lowing your  brother-in-law's  death. 

A.  Oh,  it  is  so  haul.  Their  are  so  many.  One  can  n<>t  remem- 
ber them  all. 

POLICE  PERSECUTE  WITNESSES  AT  INQUEST 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  this:  Has  there  been  any  punishment  of  wit- 
nesses who  gave  evidence  at  the  inquest? 

A.  Oh,  yes.  Dr.  O'Connor  got  a  letter  threatening  his  life.  He 
has  had  to  go  on  the  run.  His  beautiful  home  is  broken  up.  Other 
witnesses  were  also  intimidated.  There  was  a  little  boy  outside  the 
door  one  night  who  was  very  badly  beaten,  and  had  to  be  treated 
in  the  North  Infirmary.  He  was  employed  in  summoning  witnesses. 
We  thought  at  first  it  was  my  brother.  The  men  who  beat  him  and 
held  him  up  were  of  the  same  height  as  the  policemen, — because 
previously  a  policeman  had  to  have  a  certain  height.  And  these 
men  who  beat  up  the  little  boy  were  very  big  men,  and  dressed 
in  mufti. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  policemen  have  a  very  peculiar  accent,  and 
people  can  tell  them? 

A.  Yes,  people  can  tell  them,  can  tell  them  immediately.  It  is 
the  Depot  accent. 

Q.  Dr.  O'Connor  at  the  inquest  not  only  testified  to  the  nature 
of  your  brother's  wounds,  but  also  testified  to  the  character  of  the 
bullets  found  in  his  body  and  in  the  wall? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  quite  true. 

ARRESTED  FOR  RELIEF  WORK 

Q.     Have  you  ever  been  arrested  yourself,  Miss  Walsh? 

A.  Yes;  you  see  in  the  Cumann  na  niBan  Society;  which  is  out 
to  help  the  Irish  Republican  Army, — because  many  of  the  boys  have 
widowed  mothers  and  people  dependent  upon  them,  so  we  used  to 
collect  from  time  to  time  things  for  them,  carrying  boxes  and  stand- 
ing outside  the  church  door.  And  we  were  able  to  help  in  this  way. 
However,  on  this  particular  morning, — it  was  early  in  November 
and  the  "flu"  was  raging  in  Cork,  and  I  volunteered  to  collect  at 
early  mass  with  another  girl.  And  two  men  approached  us  and 
said,  "Have  you  a  permit?"  And  we  said,  "No.  We  are  Irish 
Republicans  and  do  not  need  any  authority."  And  they  demanded 
our  names,  and  we  refused  to  give  them.  We  said  citizens  of  the 
Irish  Republic  did  not  have  to  give  their  names  without  authority. 
And  they  grabbed  me  and  said,  "Come  along."  And  they  took  me 
down  to  the  Bridewell. 

Q.     What  is  the  Bridewell? 

A.  It  is  the  place  where  they  take  people  before  they  are  tried. 
And  one  of  the  men  there  came  to  me  and  the  other  young  girl  and 


646 

said,  "What  is  your  name?"  And  we  said,  "We  are  citizens  of  the 
Irish  Republic  and  do  not  have  to  give  you  our  names."  And  he 
said,  "The  Germans  are  beaten  now.  They  are  not  at  your  backs." 
And  I  said,  "You  did  not  beat  them."  And  he  said  to  the  men, 
"Throw  them  into  Number  Four,  and  they  will  soon  get  tired  and 
give  their  names."  Number  Four  was  a  very  filthy  place, — -dirt  and 
old  papers  and  scraps  and  safety  pins  and  things  like  that.  We 
were  kept  there  for  three  or  four  hours,  and  policemen  would  come 
in  every  little  while  and  ask  us  our  names  and  addresses;  and  we 
would  not  give  them.  And  then  a  policeman  called  me  out  and 
said,  "I  want  your  name  and  address."  And  I  said,  "I  will  not  give 
it."  And  he  said,  "Go  back  in  there  then."  And  I  went  back.  And 
again  they  said,  "Come  out."  And  I  would  not  tell  them  my  name. 
And  then  he  called  me  out  again  and  said,  "Miss  Susie  Walsh,  we 
know  you."  And  they  let  me  go  and  gave  me  a  summons  to  appear 
in  court.  And  of  course,  as  a  citizen  of  the  Irish  Republic,  neither 
of  us  recognized  the  court.  Four  of  the  magistrates  were  in  favor 
of  dismissing  the  case,  and  four  were  not.  And  then  we  were  sent 
another  summons,  and  would  not  recognize  them.  One  of  the 
magistrates  would  not  agree  to  a  dismissal  of  the  case,  so  it  was 
sent  up  to  Dublin,  and  came  back,  and  we  were  fined  sixpence.  And 
of  course  we  would  not  pay.     And  so  it  was  taken  out  of  the  box. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Taken  out  of  the  charity  box  in  which  you 
were  collecting  funds? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Did  they  keep  the  boxes? 

A.     Yes,  in  the  magistrates'  court. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  When  was  that? 

A.     About  two  years  ago. 

SUFFERING  GREATER  THAN  IRISH  SOCIETY 
CAN  RELIEVE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  the  Cumann  na  niBan  still  solicit 
relief  in  Cork? 

A.     Yes,  they  are,  in  every  way. 

Q.     Do  they  do  it  openly? 

A.  No,  there  is  a  sub  rosa  system.  It  has  to  be  sub  rosa  in 
almost  every  case. 

Q.     Are  you  able  to  do  much  now? 

A.     Oh,  indeed  we  are. 

Q.     How  do  you  do  it? 

A.  We  do  it  in  this  way.  We  deprive  ourselves  of  little  things 
like  a  hat  or  a  dress;  and  women  who  do  not  ordinarily  work,  go 
out  and  work  and  give  the  money.  Even  working  girls  deprive 
themselves  of  many  things.  And  we  are  able  to  do  a  lot  for  those 
who  need  help. 


647 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  do  anything  like  ought  to  be  clone  for  the 
people  of  Cork  who  need  help? 

A.     Oh,  dear,  no!     Dear,  no! 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Then  your  object  is  to  give  relief  like  the 
Red  Cross? 

A.  Yes,  we  give  relief  like  that  too.  The  Cumann  na  m'Ban 
members  took  lessons  in  first  aid,  of  course.  But  we  have  never 
been  called  upon  to  give  much  aid  in  this  way. 

Q.  But  you  also  give  assistance  to  families, — give  them  food 
and  the  like? 

A.     Yes,  we  do. 

Q.     Cumann   na  m" Ban   is  simply    a  society   of  women? 

A.     Yes,  Cumann  means  society.     It  is  the  women's  society. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Do  you  give  help  to  anybody  besides 
the  Irish  Republican  Army? 

A.     Well,  you  see,  that  is  about  all  we  can  do. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Before  you  left,  was  there  much  distress 
in  Cork? 

A.  Yes,  even  before  we  left  and  this  last  burning  took  place, 
there  were  a  lot  of  houses  destroyed,  largely  because  of  the  men 
who  were  in  the  organization;  and  those  were  the  houses  they  de- 
stroyed first. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Before  this  big  fire? 

A.     Before  this  big  fire. 

Q.     They  were  business  houses? 

A.     Yes,  big  business  houses. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Were  you  able  to  take  care  of  all  the  needs; 
or  was  there  real  suffering? 

A.  Oh,  there  is  a  great  amount  of  suffering, — a  great  amount  of 
suffering. 

TWENTY  TIMES  FACED  FIREARMS  IN  RAIDS 
ON  HOME 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Can  you  state  accurately  about  how  many 
times  in  your  home  you  have  been  confronted  with  armed  soldiers 
or  police? 

A.  About  twenty  times.  And  the  raids  were  generally  carried 
out  by  policemen. 

Q.     Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Did  they  present  firearms  at  your  body? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  firearms.     Firearms,  indeed! 

LIFE  "ON  THE  RUN" 
Q.     Commissioner   Maurer:   These   young   men    who   are   on   the 
run, — your  brother  is  one  of  them, — what  do  they  do  to  take  care 
of  themselves?     They  are  not  engaged  in  any  particular  work,  are 
they? 


648 

A.  No,  of  course  many  of  them  cannot  work,  because  they  would 
be  shot  in  broad  daylight. 

Q.     They  simply  keep  moving  around? 

A.  They  keep  moving  around,  yes.  And  sometimes  they  cannot 
lay  their  heads  on  a  pillow  for  a  week  in  succession. 

Q.     They  are  continually  on  the  run? 

A.     Continually  on  the  run,  yes. 

ORGANIZATION  AND  OPERATION  OF  THE 
REPUBLICAN  ARMY 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Miss  Walsh,  you  spoke  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publican Army.     Can  you  describe  that,  and  how  it  operates? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes,  I  was  just  going  to  ask  that  you  might 
describe  how  the  Republican  Army  originated  and  how  it  grew. 

A.  Yes,  I  think  it  was  after  the  arms  had  been  imported  into 
Belfast  by  Sir  Edward  Carson  that  our  men  thought  that  if  one 
section  of  Ireland  could  arm  themselves,  our  men  could  be  armed 
too.     So  that  was  the  start  of  the  Volunteers. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  At  the  time  of  the  passing  of  the  Home 
Rule  Bill,  Sir  Edward  Carson  brought  in  arms  from  Germany  and 
armed  the  north  of  Ireland  in  defiance  of  the  British  Government? 

A.     Yes,  in  defiance  of  the  British  Government. 

Q.     Just  go  ahead  and  describe  how  you  got  armed. 

A.  Well,  we  got  arms  after  that.  From  1916  on  they  have 
arrested  all  men  in  the  south  of  Ireland  found  with  arms,  and  give 
them  from  two  to  four  years'  imprisonment  simply  because  they 
were  found  with  a  revolver.1  And  yet,  on  the  other  hand,  these 
men  who  come  into  your  homes  and  shoot  you,  you  are  not  even 
allowed  a  revolver  to  protect  your  family  from  them. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  I  am  getting  at  is  how  the  Irish  Army 
is  now  organized  and  controlled? 

A.     Well,  I  do  not  really  know. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  It  is  a  secret  army.  It  does  not  work  in  the 
open,  does  it?     It  cannot  appear  in  public  or  it  will  be  shot  down. 

A.     Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.  It  is  a  private  agreement  between  different  men  that  they  will 
stand  together  in  upholding  the  Republic? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  quite  it. 

Q.  And  who  the  officials  arc  is  only  known  by  the  officers  of  the 
Republic? 

A.     Quite  so. 

Senator  Walsh:  That  is  what  you  wanted  to  know,  Major,  is 
it  not? 


1  Under  the  recent  martial-law  proclamation,  the  death  penalty  may  he 
imposed  for  possession  of  arms  or  ammunition, 


649 

Major  Newman:  Yes,  I  do  not  understand  it.  1  thought  it  would 
be  pertinent  and  interesting  to  know  just  what  the  Republican  Army 
is  and  how  it  is  organized. 

Senator  Walsh :  It  is  an  organization  of  civilian  men,  a  citizens' 
army. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  See  if  I  can  bring  it  out.  They  have  a 
Volunteer  Army  for  the  express  purpose  of  being  an  army  of  de- 
fense for  Ireland,  as  they  call  it? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  And  in  the  Irish  Republican  Government  they  have  a  minis- 
try of  war  just  like  any  other  government? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  prior  to  this  oppression  by  the  addition  of  many  sol- 
diers and  the  Black-and-Tans,  these  men  had  uniforms  and  they 
drilled  in  large  bodies  throughout  Ireland  publicly? 

A.     Yes,  that  is  quite  so. 

Q.     They  had  their  own  commandants  and  a  regular  staff? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  it  was  the  Volunteer  Army,  in  conjunction  with  the 
Citizens'  Army,  which  was  largely  composed  of  labor  men  led  by 
James  Connolly, — the  army  organized  by  James  Larkin,  now  in  Sing 
Sing  prison  in  this  country, — they  were  the  men  who  fought  in  the 
uprising  of  1916? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  after  1916  the  army  was  largely  augmented,  and  they 
brought  in  recruits  all  over  Ireland,  and  the  general  knowledge  was 
that  in  the  spring  of  1916  they  had  regular  soldiers  in  the  Volunteer 
Army  numbering  about  one  hundred  thousand?' 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  they  had  regular  recruiting  officers,  and  they  had  an 
organization  of  Boy  Scouts,  and  everything  of  that  sort? 

A.     Yes,  yes. 

Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Did  they  have  any  arms? 

A.     Oh,  they  had  arms  then. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  If  we  went  over  to  Ireland  and  traveled 
throughout  Ireland,  could  you  see  any  member  of  this  army? 

A.     Oh,  yes,  you  could. 

Q.     How? 

A.     By  asking,  you  could  see  them. 

Q.      Are  they  not  obliged  to  keep  on  the  run?     How  could  Ave  see 


ll. 


em 


A.  Oh,  if  an  American  asked  to  see  them,  he  could  do  so. 

Q.  Do  they  wear  a  uniform? 

A.  Oh,  no.     Civilian  clothes. 

Q.  If  they  appear  in  uniform,  they  are  liable  to  be  shot? 


650 

A.     Yes,  or  get  from  three  to  five  years'  imprisonment.1 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Did  they  appear  at  the  funeral  of  your 
brother-in-law? 

A.     Yes,  a  detachment  of  them  did. 

Q.  And  did  they  send  a  telegram  to  London  at  the  time  of  the 
death  of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney? 

A.     Yes,  they  did. 

Q.  The  only  difference  now  is  that  they  do  not  wear  the  uniform 
and  have  to  drill  in  secret? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  your  general  information  is  that  they  are  still  operating 
as  an  army,  but  they  cannot  do  it  as  they  did  before  they  were  over- 
whelmed by  a  great  force  from  England? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  About  how  many  of  them  are  there  now? 

A.  Well,  I  cannot  say  now  because  so  many  of  them  have  been 
destroyed.  One  night  we  heard  a  great  explosion  when  I  was  teach- 
ing in  the  Gaelic  school ;  and  the  head  teacher  told  us  to  close  the 
school  and  go  home.  When  I  went  home  I  saw  two  great  pools  of 
blood.  A  Black-and-Tan  threw  a  bomb  into  a  group  of  Volunteers 
and  sixteen  of  them  were  killed  or  wounded. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  What  was  this  date, — the  year  and  month? 

A.  About  a  month  ago.  Two  days  after  there  was  another  ex- 
plosion in  Blackpool,  and  five  Volunteers  were  killed.  If  they  can- 
not get  them  at  night,  they  will  throw  a  bomb  at  them  at  any  time 
and  kill  them  that  way. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Prior  to  the  uprising,  Miss  Walsh,  there 
were  about  one  hundred  thousand? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.     Have  they  increased  since  then? 

A.     I  think  so. 

Q.     Have  they  any  arms? 

A.  I  cannot  say,  because  since  Mr.  MacCurtain  was  murdered 
and  my  brother  is  on  the  run,  I  do  not  get  much  more  information. 
I  cannot  really  tell  you. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  But  they  are  seizing  police  barracks  all 
over  Ireland,  and  getting  arms  and  ammunition  that  way,  are  they 
not? 

A.     Yes,  they  have. 

Q.  But  the  arms  they  got  at  the  time  of  the  massacre  of  Bach- 
elors' Walk,2  and  what  they  have  taken  away  from  the  army  of  occu- 
pation are  about  all  the  arms  they  have? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  When  they  drilled  in  the  open,  did  they 
carry  arms? 


The  death  penalty  may  now  be  imposed. 
!See   pp.   145,   206-207. 


651 

A.  I  think  so  sometimes,  but  not  often.  I  have  seen  them,  but 
not  generally. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  When  were  they  drilling  all  over 
Ireland? 

A.  After  Sir  Edward  Carson  imported  arms  from  Germany  to 
arm  the  Ulster  Volunteers  in  the  North. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  I  would  say  about  the  spring  of  1919  they 
were  drilling  all  over  Ireland.  When  the  President  of  the  Irish 
Republic  went  from  place  to  place,  he  saw  them  drilling  then. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Were  they  equipped  with  uniforms  at  that 
time? 

A.  Yes,  some  of  them.  There  were  regiments  that  had  uniforms 
then,  did  they  not,  Miss  Walsh? 

Miss  Walsh :    Yes,  they  did. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  We  have  been  told  that  order  was 
restored  at  the  time  of  the  Derry  riots  by  the  Irish  Volunteer  forces, 
thereby  checking  those  riots  from  spreading  to  Belfast.  Do  you 
know  whether  those  men  wore  uniforms  and  acted  openly,  or 
whether  they  acted  secretly? 

A.     I  could  not  really  tell  you  anything  about  it. 

CONTINUOUS  SHOOTINGS  AND  MURDERS  IN  CORK 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  is  possible  to  give  any  statistics,  any 
accurate  statement  as  to  the  number  of  shootings  and  murders  in 
the  city  of  Cork?  Especially  since  the  time  of  the  murder  of  your 
brother-in-law? 

A.  Well,  I  believe  that  since  that  time  they  are  under  the  im- 
pression that  we  should  come  out  so  they  could  murder  more  of  us. 
One  Englishman  said:  "It  is  surprising  that  these  Irish  do  not  come 
out,  because  we  would  have  a  real  chance  at  them  then."  I  think 
they  were  really  surprised. 

Q.  Were  these  raids  that  occurred  in  Cork  after  the  death  of 
your  brother-in-law  nightly? 

A.     Yes,  they  were  nightly. 

Q.  Then  it  is  almost  impossible  to  give  an  exact  statement,  be- 
cause the  raids  are  so  continuous? 

A.     Exactly. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  To  what  extent  has  the  Sinn  Fein  cause 
grown  in  the  City  of  Cork? 

A.  Well,  they  were  nearly  all  Sinn  Feiners  when  my  brother-in- 
law  was  Lord  Mayor.  He  seemed  to  make  a  good  many  conversions 
from  the  lenient  way  he  treated  other  people, — he  made  them  be- 
lievers in  our  side. 

Q.  Have  these  raids  tended  to  increase  the  number  of  believers 
in  the  Republic? 


652 

A.  Well,  I  think  a  great  many  women  have  been  intimidated. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  believe  several  have  been  shifted  to  the  lunatic 
asylum. 

PEOPLE  WILL  FIGHT  UNTIL  DEATH  FOR 
INDEPENDENCE 

Q.  I  am  trying  to  find  out  whether  these  raids  have  made  the 
people  more  spirited? 

A.  Well,  I  should  say  that  it  has  made  them  more  spirited  and 
thrown  them  over  to  our  side. 

Q.  Then  up  to  the  time  you  left  Ireland  there  had  been  no  ap- 
parent break  in  the  ranks  of  the  Republic? 

A.  None  whatever.  They  are  only  more  determined  to  continue 
the  fight  to  death. 

AMERICAN  SAILORS  ADMIRED  BY  PEOPLE  OF 
CORK 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Miss  Walsh,  there  is  one  matter  I  forgot 
to  ask  you  about.  I  believe  you  stated  that  you  were  present  in 
Cork  from  the  beginning  of  the  war  down  to  the  time  you  sailed  the 
other  day? 

A.     Yes,  Mr.  Walsh. 

Q.  Now,  there  has  been  something  said  from  time  to  time  about 
the  alleged  friction  between  the  population  of  Cork  and  our  Ameri- 
can sailors.  I  wish  you  would  briefly  sketch  what  the  attitude  of 
the  population  was  toward  our  sailors,  and  what  the  friction  was. 

A.  Well,  as  far  as  I  can  remember,  there  was  no  friction  be- 
tween the  population  of  Cork  and  the  American  sailors.  On  the 
other  hand,  I  think  it  was  principally  between  the  British  sailors 
and  the  American  sailors.  Owing  to  the  fact  that  the  American 
sailors  had  so  much  money  to  disburse  and  the  British  sailors  did 
not,  they  were  at  a  disadvantage.  The  Cork  people  certainly  ad- 
mired the  American  sailors.  But  one  or  two  of  them  unfortunately 
got  out  of  hand,  which  might  happen  in  any  army.  The  same  thing 
happened  with  British  sailors.  So  I  think  that  the  Vigilance  Com- 
mittee was  formed,  not  on  account  of  the  American  sailors,  but  to 
put  down  any  riots. 

Q.     There  was  a  large  number  of  American  sailors  in  Cork? 

/Y.     0,  yes. 

Q.  You  were  acquainted  with  the  attitude  of  the  people  of  Cork 
toward  the  American  sailors? 

A.  0,  yes.  They  simply  loved  the  American  sailors.  With  the 
exception  of  the  few  whom  I  mentioned,  they  all  behaved  admirably. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  And  there  was  a  Vigilance  Committee 
of  the  citizens  of  Cork  formed? 


653 

A.  Yes.  Some  of  those — one  or  two  of  those  sailors,  not  par- 
ticularly American  sailors,  behaved  in  an  ungentlemanly  manner. 

Q.     This  was  formed  by  the  Sinn  Fein  Government? 

A.     By  the  citizens  of  the  city  themselves. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  This  was  just  sort  of  a  voluntary  organi- 
zation of  the  citizens  to  prevent  any  possible  trouble.  But  other 
than  these  one  or  two  sailors  who  were  disorderly,  there  was  no 
friction  between  the  American  sailors  and  the  people  of  Cork? 

A.  I  can  solemnly  swear  that  the  American  sailors  were  simply 
adored  by  the  people  of  Cork,  and  behaved  very,  very  well  with  the 
exception  of  one  or  two  who  misbehaved,  such  as  one  might  find 
anywhere. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  ANNA  WALSH 

Commissioner  Wood  in  the  Chair. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:    Would  you  please  give  us  your  name? 

A.     Anna  Walsh. 

Q.     And  you  live  in  Cork?     A.     I  was  born  in  Cork. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  your  business  has  been?  A.  I  work 
for  the  Sorosis  Shoe  Company  in  Cork.  I  worked  my  way  up  from 
a  junior  assistant  to  the  head  of  my  department. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  It  is  a  Boston  firm  incorporated  under  the 
name  of  the  Sorosis  Shoe  Company  in  Cork?      A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  you  are  head  of  your  department?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Now,  prior  to  the  trouble  in  Cork  in  1916  what  did  yon  do? 
A.  I  lived  in  1916  on  South  Douglas  Road  with  my  mother  and 
sisters. 

Q.     How  many  sisters?     A.     Four. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  brothers?  A.  Yes,  my  brother  James, 
who  has  been  on  the  run.  And  my  other  brother  died  at  the  time 
of  the  uprising  in  1916. 

BLACK-AND-TANS  HORSEWHIP  AND  ROB  PEOPLE 
ON  STREETS 

Q.  I  would  ask  you  first  to  tell  what  you  know  about  the  horse- 
whipping of  people  on  the  streets  of  Cork.  A.  About  three  weeks 
before  I  came  here,  the  people  rushed  from  Patrick  Street  one  day 
into  the  store.  Jusl  about  an  hour  before  that  I  looked  out  and  the 
Black-and-Tans  had  revolvers  in  their  hands  and  were  frightening 
the  people.  But  about  an  hour  after  the  people — women  and  chil- 
dren— ran  screaming  into  the  store,  and  I  heard  the  crack  of  whips 
outside.  The  Black-and-Tans  had  taken  whips  away  from  the  cab 
drivers  and  were  flogging  the  people  on  the  streets,  and  were  hold- 
ing them  up  and  taking  money  from  them. 


654 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  During  business  hours  was  this?  A. 
Yes,  about  four  in  the  afternoon. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  About  how  many  Black-and-Tans?  A. 
There  were  two  on  one  corner  and  two  on  the  other,  and  they  were 
scattering  the  people  in  all  directions. 

Q.  Was  that  a  busy  time  of  the  day?  A.  Yes,  very, — the  most 
people  on  the  street. 

Q.     And  people  ran  into  the  store?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     About  how  many?     A.     Twenty  or  thirty. 

Q.  What  did  the  people  say?  A.  They  were  screaming  "Mur- 
der!" 

Q.  Previous  to  that  you  had  looked  out?  A.  Yes,  and  I  saw 
a  Black-and-Tan  with  a  revolver  holding  up  a  citizen  and  searching 
his  pockets. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Deliberately  robbing  the  people  on 
the  streets  in  daylight?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  She  did  not  say  they  robbed  them. 
A.     The  Witness:  Yes,  they  took  their  money. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Do  you  know  of  cases  where  money  was 
taken?  A.  Yes.  From  one  of  the  men  they  took  a  five-pound  note 
from  his  pocketbook. 

Q.  Were  the  people — the  women  and  children — very  fright- 
ened?    A.     Oh,  yes;  terribly,  terribly. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  receive  blows?  A.  They  had  run  in  from 
the  whips. 

INDISCRIMINATE  FIRING  ON  CROWDED  STREETS 

A  few  days  before  that  I  was  coming  home  from  lunch  about  five 
minutes  to  two,  and  the  people  were  rushing  along,  and  they  said  a 
lorry  had  passed,  and  the  soldiers  were  firing. 

Q.     Could  you  hear  the  shots?     A.     Yes,  very  plainly. 

Q.  Is  your  business  place  in  the  heart  of  Cork?  A.  Yes,  it  is 
on  Patrick  Street. 

Q.  Is  it  a  section  devoted  largely  to  retail  business?  A.  Yes,  it 
is  the  retail  section. 

Q.  It  is  the  retail  section  of  the  city  of  Cork?  A.  Yes.  And 
about  a  week  before  I  came  the  people  were  coming  out  from 
theaters,  and  they  began  firing,  and  a  Mrs.  Crowley  of  Coburg  Street 
was  shot  through  the  breast. 

Q.  Shot  through  the  breast?  A.  Yes,  shot  through  the  breast. 
And  a  young  man  was  shot  dead  coming  out  of  church. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  Mrs.  Crowley  die?  A.  No,  the  wound 
was  not  fatal.  When  they  began  firing  on  the  people  coming  out 
of  church,  the  people  were  afraid  to  go  home,  and  the  priest  tele- 
phoned to  the  barracks  to  take  the  people  home,  because  it  was  near 


655 

ten,  the  curfew  hour,  and  the  people  were  scared.  And  lorries  came 
and  took  the  people  home. 

Q.  What  is  the  situation  there  now?  Can  you  do  business  as 
ordinarily,  or  how  do  you  do  it?  A.  Well,  the  shops  close  at  six, 
and  the  people  get  home  as  soon  as  possible.  The  people  used  to  go 
out  for  an  hour  or  two  for  a  walk,  but  now  it  is  not  safe  to  do  it. 
One  evening  when  the  people  were  out,  a  lorry  came  along  and 
fired.     I  saw  the  shots  myself  in  Evans'. 

Q.  What  is  Evans'?  A.  A  large  bookstore.  And  one  lady  was 
shot  through  the  ear.  It  was  twenty  past  seven  o'clock.  It  was  not 
curfew  hour  at  all. 

Q.  How  do  women  like  you  go  home?  A.  Well,  at  night  my 
sister  and  my  niece  call  for  me,  and  we  all  go  home  together. 

EFFECT   OF  TERRORISM   ON   BUSINESS   AND 
INDUSTRY 

Q.  What  effect  has  that  had  on  the  business  of  Cork?  A.  The 
people  are  afraid  to  come  in.  The  people  from  the  outlying  dis- 
tricts are  afraid  to  come  in. 

Q.  And  you  draw  most  of  your  trade  from  the  surrounding  dis- 
trict?    A.     Yes. 

Q.  Are  there  surrounding  districts  where  there  is  business? 
A.     Oh,  yes;  there  are  mills  in  Douglas  and  Blackpool. 

Q.  About  how  many  people  in  Blackpool?  A.  Well,  Blackpool 
is  very  thickly  populated. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  of  Blackpool?  A.  It  is  on  the 
north  side  of  the  city,  and  the  houses  are  built  close  like;  it  is  very 
thickly  populated. 

Q.  Has  it  its  own  retail  section  like  a  small  town?  A.  Well, 
the  people  come  into  town  on  the  tram  to  do  their  trading.  The 
people  there  are  mostly  pig  buyers. 

Q.     Cattle  buyers  and  things  like  that?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Where  is  the  Ford  plant, — the  automobile  plant?  A.  Well, 
that  is  on  the  marine  side,  the  east  side. 

Q.     How  far  from  the  city  of  Cork?     A.     About  a  quarter  mile. 

Q.     Is  it  a  large  plant?     A.     Yes,  very  large. 

Q.  How  many  employees?  A.  Well,  I  cannot  say  exactly,  but 
it  is  a  large  plant;  probably  a  thousand  hands. 

Q.  About  a  thousand  people  employed  there?  A.  Well,  that  is 
as  far  as  I  can  say  about  that. 

Q.  And  the  working  people  there  largely  live  in  the  city  of 
Cork?     A.     Yes,  most  of  them. 

Q.  What  effect  has  this  had  upon  business?  A.  Before  I  left 
home  I  heard  that  the  men  at  Ford's  were  putting  in  only  half  time. 

Q.  How  about  the  other  plants?  A.  Nothing  at  all.  Many  of 
them  are  lying  completely  idle. 


656 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  of  this  on  unemployment  in  Cork?  A.  It 
is  a  very  serious  situation  for  the  winter.  The  people  have  nothing; 
at  all  to  do. 

Q.     It  looks  like  a  serious  situation  for  the  winter?    A.  Yes,  very. 

WHOLESALE  TERRORISM 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  things  that  happened  that  your 
sister  did  not  testify  to?  A.  Well,  as  far  back  as  September  I  saw 
lorries  come  down  by  the  postoffice,  and  I  looked  up,  and  almost 
immediately  the  lorries  came  up  and  the  soldiers  were  firing.  And 
an  ex-soldier  said  to  me,  "Those  are  not  blank  shots.  Run!"  Mrs. 
MacCurtain  had  gone  away  to  Youghal,  and  my  sister,  when  she 
came  back  from  the  station,  her  umbrella  was  torn  to  pieces.  The 
soldiers  were  firing  around  the  station,  with  the  result  that  she  was 
walked  over  and  trampled,  and  her  umbrella  was  broken.  Where 
the  people  were  staying,  they  were  put  up  for  the  night.  And  the 
'phone  was  going  all  of  the  night  informing  their  people  that  they 
were  safe;  because  it  was  not  safe  to  pass  in  the  streets. 

HOME  REPEATEDLY  RAIDED   WITHOUT  CAUSE 

Q.  Now,  for  how  long  before  March,  when  your  brother-in-law 
was  killed,  had  these  raids  been  going  on, — including  your  own 
house?  A.  Well,  the  raids  were  going  on,  but  they  were  not  so 
bad  at  that  time.  But  as  regards  our  own  house,  we  were  getting 
quite  accustomed  to  raids, — it  was  nothing  new  for  us.  As  my  sister 
stated,  I  was  in  bed  ill  about  four  o'clock  one  morning — - 

Q.  Were  you  in  a  dangerous  condition?  A.  I  was  in  a  pneu- 
monic condition,  and  the  doctor  would  not  let  me  be  removed  to 
the  hospital.  My  sister  was  putting  a  poultice  to  my  chest  when 
they  broke  in,  and  I  was  ordered  up. 

Q.  Were  you  weak?  A.  Very  weak.  And  when  I  got  down- 
stairs I  saw  my  mother  with  three  soldiers  with  fixed  bayonets  to 
her  face. 

Q.     How  old  is  your  mother?     A.     Over  sixty. 

Q.     Were  there  any  men  in  the  house  at  all?     A.     No. 

Q.  In  all  these  raids  on  your  home,  some  twenty  of  them,  I  be- 
lieve, before  your  brother-in-law  was  murdered,  did  they  ever  dis- 
cover any  arms  or  anything  like  that?  A.  No,  none  at  all.  There 
was  none  at  all  there. 

Q.     And    they    always    searched    thoroughly    when    they    came? 

A.     Yes. 

Q.  Down  to  this  time  had  there  been  any  constables  killed  around 
Cork?     A.    Well,  on  the  tenth  of  March — 

Q.  Prior  to  that  time?  A.  Well,  there  may  have  been  a  few 
cases,  but  Cork  was  very  quiet,  and  nothing  had  happened.  But  on 
the  tenth  of  March  the  police  got  out  of  hand,  and  my  brother-in- 


657 

law  declared  that  the  situation  was  serious,  and  if  die  police  could 

not  do  their  duty — the  shops  had  been  shot  up — and  if  they  could 

not  do  their  duty,  ihc  city  would  have  to  protect  the  citizens  them- 
selves. 

MIDNIGHT  MURDER  OF  LORD  MAYOR 
MACCURTAIN 

Q.  Where  were  you  when  the  raid  occurred  for  the  purpose  ol 
murdering  your  brother-in-law,  Mayor  MacCurtain?  A.  1  was  in 
my  bedroom. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  give  a  brief  account  of  that.  A.  Well,  1 
did  not  hear  the  knock  at  the  door,  but  I  heard  my  sister  tapping  at 
the  door  of  my  brother's  room,  and  she  said,  "Jimmy,  get  up.  A 
raid!  A  raid!"  I  threw  on  a  little  red  coat  that  I  had  for  getting 
up,  and  I  heard  a  voice,  "Come  out.  Curtain !"  It  surprised  me  that 
they  should  get  upstairs  so  quickly. 

Q.  This  was  on  the  first  landing?  A.  On  the  first  landing,  yes. 
And  I  heard  two  shots.  One  of  the  little  ones  ran  out  crying, 
"Da-da,  Da-da,"  and  I  pushed  her  in.  And  I  put  my  head  out  of 
the  back  window,  and  a  woman's  voice  called  out  to  me,  "Who  has 
been  murdered?"  And  I  said,  "Mr.  MacCurtain.  We  are  all  being 
murdered  by  the  police."  And  I  heard  my  brother-in-law  below 
moaning. 

Q.  You  heard  shots?  A.  Yes,  two  shots.  And  then  I  ran 
downstairs. 

Q.  These  men  had  apparently  broken  into  the  house?  A.  Yes. 
Q.  Did  you  hear  them  hammering  before  they  broke  into  the 
house?  A.  No,  I  did  not.  I  only  heard  my  sister's  voice  calling, 
"A  raid!  A  raid!"  When  I  got  clown  I  put  my  hand  under  his 
head,  and  I  held  up  the  crucifix  and  said,  "Thomas,  boy,  this  is  a 
crucifix.  Indulgence  for  a  happy  death.  Kiss  it."  And  he  kissed  it 
repeatedly.  And  then  he  said,  "My  feet  are  cold."  And  then  he 
said,  "I  am  dying." 

Q.  Did  he  die  immediately?  A.  No.  He  asked  me  not  to  leave 
him,  and  of  course  I  said  I  would  not.  My  brother  came  and  put  a 
pillow  under  his  head,  and  he  said,  "Jim,  take  the  pillow  away." 
And  then  he  said,  "Anna,  put  your  hand  under  my  head  again." 
Thomas  and  I  had  worked  in  the  cause  together  ever  since  he  mar- 
ried my  sister. 

Q.  How  long  had  he  been  married  to  your  sister?  A.  About 
twelve  years.  I  noticed  that  under  my  hand  on  his  head  it  was 
getting  quite  cold  and  clammy,  and  then  I  saw  the  end  was  coming. 
He  said  again,  "Do  not  take  Anna  away  from  me."  And  Jim  said, 
"Come  on,  Tom,  boy.  You  are  only  wounded.  You  will  not  die." 
And   Mrs.   MacCurtain   came   upstairs   and   said,   "Cheer   up,    Tom. 


658 

You  are  all  right.  The  priest  will  soon  be  here.  You  are  dying 
for  Ireland,  and  die  like  a  soldier." 

Q.  Where  was  your  sister?  A.  She  was  sitting  at  the  side  of 
the  stairs  holding  the  baby.  The  little  one  did  not  realize  why  he 
was  lying  there,  and  kept  repeating,  "Da-da,  Da-da." 

Q.  Where  were  the  other  children?  A.  There  was  so  much 
screaming  all  over  that  I  really  do  not  know.  I  was  taking  care  of 
Thomas,  and  did  not  see  anything  else,  and  do  not  know. 

Q.     Did  you  see  the  men  in  the  house?     A.     No,  they  had  gone. 

Q.  Did  you  see  them  go  out?  A.  No,  I  did  not.  I  went  down 
immediately,  but  they  had  gone.  Then  the  priest  came.  And  then 
he  raised  up  his  eyes  and  said,  "Into  Thy  hands,  0  Lord,  I  commend 
my  spirit."    And  then  he  was  dead. 

Q.  Did  you  attend  the  inquest?  A.  I  was  there  just  one  night 
to  give  my  evidence,  and  after  that  Mrs.  MacCurtain  was  ordered 
away  for  a  change,  and  I  went  into  the  country. 

BROTHER   NARROWLY   ESCAPES   DEATH 

There  was  one  point  I  wanted  to  mention.  Some  weeks  before 
I  left  home  my  brother  was  paying  a  visit  to  my  mother,  and  came 
down  to  my  place  and  said  he  was  nearly  done  in.  And  I  said, 
"How  is  that?" 

Q.  Who  was  that?  A.  My  brother.  He  said  that  up  in  the 
passageway  he  met  Barry,  the  detective.  He  did  not  want  to  go  into 
the  house  for  fear  they  would  follow  him  in,  and  he  did  not  want 
any  shooting  to  take  place  in  front  of  Mrs.  MacCurtaii^.  So  he  saw 
a  lady  in  a  neighboring  house,  and  if  he  was  to  be  murdered,  he 
wanted  them  to  see  it.  Then  two  of  them  came  up.  One  of  them 
was  Barry,  the  detective.  And  they  said,  "What  are  you  doing 
here?"  And  he  said,  "Why,  Barry,  don't  you  know  me?"  And  of 
course  they  did  not  want  to  shoot  him,  because  they  would  be  identi- 
fied. And  he  made  it  down  the  avenue,  and  met  my  niece,  and 
pointed  back  and  said,  "Those  two  detectives  are  after  me."  And 
when  my  niece  looked  up,  she  saw  the  two  men  looking  after  him. 
But  they  did  not  get  him.     He  took  a  short  cut  and  got  away. 

Q.  Your  brother  is  still  on  the  run?  A.  Yes;  he  does  not  dare 
come  near  the  house. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  know  he  is  living  yet?  A. 
Yes,  I  think  so.  I  saw  him  a  few  weeks  ago,  and  he  is  looking  very 
pale  and  thin. 

Q.     How  old  is  he?     A.     Twenty-five  or  six. 

YOUNG  MEN  OF  IRELAND  LIVE  "ON  THE  RUN" 
Q.     Chairman  Howe:  Where  do  they  sleep, — in  the  fields?     Or 
where  do  they  sleep?     A.    Well,  he  told  me  one  night  he  was  sleep- 
ing in  a  house  with  another  man,  and  the  police  came  along,  and 


659 

they  jumped  out  of  the  house  with  almost  nothing  on,  and  crept  into 
a  henhouse.  And  the  two  of  them  lay  close  together  until  morning, 
when  they  went  to  a  farmer  and  asked  him  to  take  them  in.  They 
made  quite  a  joke  of  it,  because  they  found  a  pair  of  lady's  stock- 
ings, and  they  cut  the  vamps  off,  and  they  looked  like  boots. 

Q.  How  common  is  that  sort  of  thing  in  Ireland?  A.  It  is  quite 
common.  Nearly  all  of  the  men  are  running  away  from  the  police 
organization. 

Q.  You  say  nearly  all  the  men  are  on  the  run  .away  from  their 
homes?     A.     Yes,  away  from  their  homes. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  is  dangerous  for  the  men  to  stay  in 
homes  with  friends,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes.  Recently,  before  I  left 
there  was  a  notice  in  the  papers  that  if  there  was  anybody  found 
sheltering  Sinn  Feiners,  they  would  meet  the  same  fate. 

Q.  How  are  these  notices  put  in  the  papers?  A.  The  Blaek- 
and-Tans  go  into  the  paper  office  and  hold  a  revolver  to  the  heads 
of  the  owners  and  compel  them  to  print  these  notices  in  large  type 
on  the  front  page  of  the  paper.1 

LORD  FRENCH  REFUSES  TO  TESTIFY  AT  INQUEST 

Q.  Was  your  family  represented  by  counsel  at  the  inquest  f 
A.    Yes. 

Q.     Who  was  he?     A.     Mr.  Lynch. 

Q.  Did  he  have  anything  to  do  with  the  city,  or  was  he  just  the 
representative  of  your  family?  A.  No,  he  was  just  the  representa- 
tive of  our  family.    He  was  instructed  by  Mr.  Maurice  O'Connor. 

Q.  And  who  was  Maurice  O'Connor?  A.  He  was  the  repre- 
sentative of  the  family,  and  Mr.  Lynch  had  instructions  from  Mr. 
O'Connor. 

Q.  Was  there  a  rumor  before  the  inquest  that  your  brother  was 
murdered  by  some  of  his  colleagues?  A.  Yes,  a  rumor  came  from 
Lord  French  that  he  was. 

Q.  Was  Lord  French  summoned?  A.  Yes,  he  was  summoned, 
and  refused  to  come. 

AUTHORITIES  TAKE  NO  ACTION  AGAINST 
MURDERERS 

Q.  Did  your  counsel  also  demand  to  know  where  these  bullets 
came  from,  and  this  police  button, — the  bullets  found  in  the  body 
and  in  the  wall?     Is  that  so?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  In  fact,  he  made  a  demand  that  a  strict  examination  be  made 
as  to  the  criminals  that  had  killed  your  brother-in-law?  A.  Yes, 
that  is  so. 


1  See  testimony. of   Lord   Mayor   O'Callaghan. 


660 

Q.  Has  that  examination  ever  been  made?  A.  No,  not  to  our 
knowledge.     They  failed  to  do  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  carried  on  the  inquest?  Under  whose 
authority  was  it  conducted?  A.  The  inquest  was  ordered  in  the 
usual  way.  Mr.  J.  Wolfe  represented  the  Crown,  and  Mr.  Lynch 
represented  us. 

Q.  I  do  not  mean  the  names  of  the  people.  But  there  was  an 
inquest  constituted  according  to  law  by  the  regular  authorities  for 
doing  that  thing?  A.  Oh,  yes.  But  of  course  all  inquests  are 
stopped  now,  and  the  military  do  that  thing. 

Q.  Yes,  but  before  that.  This  was  the  usual  civil  procedure? 
A.    Yes,  yes. 

Q.  This  rumor  that  you  spoke  about,  was  this  published  by 
anyone?  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  origin  of  that  rumor  that 
Mayor  MacCurtain  had  been  killed  by  Sinn  Feiners?  A.  That,  I 
believe,  came  from  Lord  French. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  That  they  had  information  that  Mr. 
MacCurtain  was  a  murdered  man, — murdered  by  the  extremist  party 
of  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.  Was  that  statement  made  by  Lord  French?  A.  Yes,  and 
Lord  French  was  summoned,  and  refused  to  come. 

Q.  That  statement  was  made  in  the  papers  from  Lord  French? 
A.  Yes.  It  also  stated  that  Professor  Stockley  was  also  condemned 
to  be  murdered  with  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  in  a  secret  meeting. 
But  Professor  Stockley  is  not  an  active  Sinn  Feiner.  He  is  only  a 
Republican.     And  he  denounced  that  statement  as  a  falsehood. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  What  statement  was  that?  A.  The  state- 
ment that  the  extremists  of  Sinn  Fein  had  met  in  a  secret  meeting 
and  condemned  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  and  Professor  Stockley 
to  death. 

Q.     And  Dr.  Stockley  denounced  that  as  a  falsehood?     A.     Yes. 

LORD  MAYOR  MACCURTAIN  LOVED  BY  ALL 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  what  was  the  attitude  of  the  Republicans 
toward  your  brother-in-law?  A.  The  whole  city  idolized  him. 
They  all  loved  him. 

Q.  After  his  death  was  your  home  visited  by  the  people?  A. 
Yes,  they  all  thronged  there.  The  first  time  I  ever  heard  men  cry 
was  then.  One  man  said,  "God,  Thomas,  I  didn't  think  you  would 
be  the  first."  And  others  said  that  it  seemed  impossible  that  any- 
body would  ever  shoot  such  a  man  as  he  was.  The  whole  city 
mourned  for  him. 

Q.  He  was  a  general  favorite?  A.  Yes,  as  they  styled  him, 
"Stern  but  gentle  friend  of  all." 

Q.  He  was  a  man  of  very  kindly  disposition?  A.  Very  kind. 
That  is  one  reason  why  everybody  loved  him. 


66i 

Q.  And  they  proved  that  at  his  funeral,  when  a  band  of  dis- 
charged soldiers  asked  permission  to  walk?  A.  Yes.  All  classes 
of  people  came  to  walk  at  his  funeral.  And  the  people  came  in  and 
got  permission  from  the  retailers  to  look  at  the  funeral  from  their 
windows. 

INDOMITABLE  SPIRIT  OF  IRISH  PEOPLE 

Q.  What  effect  has  this  had  upon  the  spirit  of  the  people?  Has 
it  broken  them  down?  A.  No.  Quite  the  contrary.  The  people 
will  never  submit  to  be  ruled  by  England,  no  matter  how  many 
soldiers  they  bring  over.  When  the  men  are  gone  the  women  will 
step  in.  And  when  the  women  are  gone,  the  children  will  step  in. 
And  if  they  kill  all  the  children,  the  children  still  unborn  will  step 
in,  because  they  have  the  spirit  of  the  martyrs. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  the  treatment  of  the  people  has  brought 
hundreds  of  recruits  to  the  Republican  cause?  A.  Yes,  and  they 
are  not  slow  to  express  their  feeling  that  they  hope  the  day  will 
soon  come  when  the  English  will  be  gone  out  of  Ireland,  and  that 
the  day  will  soon  come  when  we  will  sweep  them  forever  from 
our  soil. 

POLICE  CREATE  CRIME  IN  CORK 

Q.  Was  Cork  a  place  in  which  there  were  any  murders  or  major 
crimes  like  assault  to  kill  before  the  present  system  of  terror  and 
raids  began?  A.  No.  Murder  and  crime  are  so  scarce  in  Cork 
and  Ireland  that  we  would  hardly  believe  it  if  the  story  of  a  murder 
had  been  printed  in  a  paper.  Now  when  we  open  the  paper  the 
heading  is:  "Two  men  murdered  last  night."  "Man  murdered  in 
his  house  before  his  wife  and  children."  That  is  the  heading  every 
morning  now. 

I  do  not  know  whether  I  mentioned  about  the  police  coming  to  a 
rather  poor  section  of  the  city  and  shooting  three  men  and  two  boys. 
The  boys  were  Boy  Scouts;  one  was  O'Handly  and  the  other  O'Brien. 
And  in  that  house  they  murdered  a  brother-in-law  of  O'Handly  for 
the  mere  fact  that  he  was  a  brother-in-law.  He  was  not  a  Sinn 
Feiner.  He  had  been  attached  to  the  British  Army  for  twelve  years. 
And  the  brother  of  the  boy,  when  the  police  flashed  the  light  on 
his  face,  said,  "Oh,  don't  shoot  me,  because  I  am  too  young." 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  How  do  you  know  that  that  is  the 
reason  why  this  man  was  shot,  because  he  was  the  brother-in-law 
of  this  Boy  Scout?     A.     Oh,  that  is  what  everyone  says. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  against  him?  A.  W'ell,  they  could  have 
had  nothing  against  him,  for  he  was  in  the  British  Army  for  twelve 
years.  He  was  not  concerned  with  politics.  He  was  a  man  with 
one  child. 

Q.     Was  this  in  daylight  or  at  night?     A.     Oh.  at  night. 


662 

Q.  Did  they  say  who  murdered  him?  A.  Yes,  they  were  police- 
men. And  another  man  shot  the  same  night  named  Coleman — his 
wife  testified  at  the  inquest  that  he  was  killed  by  the  auxiliary 
police. 

Q.  What  were  the  circumstances  of  the  killing  of  Coleman? 
A.  A  knock  came  at  the  door  at  night,  and  his  wife  said,  "Who  is 
there?"  And  a  voice  said,  "The  military.  Open."  And  Coleman 
went  to  the  door  and  was  shot  immediately. 

Q.     But  this  is  not  first-hand  testimony.     This  is  only  hearsay. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Yes,  but  I  understood  you  wanted  such  evidence 
from  parties  near  to  the  scene  of  these  crimes. 

Commissioner  Wood:  Yes,  we  did.  But  we  ought  to  get  direct 
evidence  now. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Now,  I  will  ask  you  this  question:  Did  you 
talk  with  the  widow?     A.     No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  But  you  read  about  it  and  heard  of  it  from  the  people? 
A.    Yes,  and  I  attended  the  inquiry. 

Q.     Was  there  an  inquest?     A.     No,  just  an  inquiry. 

Q.  Do  they  seem  to  have  any  hesitation  about  killing  these  men 
in  the  presence  of  their  wives?  A.  Oh,  no.  It  is  quite  a  common 
thing  now. 

CONTINUOUS   TERRORISM   AND   BURNINGS   IN 
CORK 

Q.  I  might  ask  you  about  what  effect  this  has  had  upon  the 
health  of  the  people  of  your  city.  You  might  begin  and  tell  about 
how  it  has  affected  you.  A.  Well,  for  the  past  eight  months  we 
have  had  hardly  any  decent  sleep.  And  the  lorries  'running  to  and 
fro,  and  the  shots,  and  the  yelling, — one  cannot  sleep.  I  heard  a 
big  explosion  one  night,  and  the  whole  side  of  Cash's  was  blown  in. 
I  saw  it  in  the  morning. 

Q.  What  is  that?  A.  That  is  a  big  draper's  establishment  on 
Patrick  Street.  Another  night  I  heard  a  big  explosion,  and  For- 
rest's, another  big  draper  on  Patrick  Street,  was  blown  up.  It  was 
in  flames  still  in  the  morning.  Just  a  day  after  that  the  American 
Shoe  Company  was  in  flames. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  these  shops  conducted  by  Sinn  Fein- 
ers?  A.  No,  no.  Forrest  has  no  sympathy  with  the  Sinn  Fein. 
And  the  American  Shoe  Company  is  conducted  by  an  Englishman. 
The  idea  is  to  throw  the  people  out  of  employment.  That  is  the 
idea. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  What  do  the  firemen  of  the  city  of 
Cork  do  to  put  out  these  fires?  A.  Well,  on  one  occasion  the 
firemen  were  fired  on. 

Q.  Fired  on  by  whom?  A.  By  the  Black-and-Tans.  And  the 
firemen  of  the  city  said  if  they  were  to  go  out  again  they  would  have 


663 

to  get  some  protection.  And  the  military  came  and  protected  them. 
But  now  they  are  unable  to  cope  with  the  fires  because  they  burn 
one  place  on  one  side  of  the  city,  and  at  the  same  time  they  burn 
another  place  on  the  other  side  of  the  city,  and  the  firemen  cannot 
cover  them  all. 

ENGLISH  ATTACK  BOY   SCOUTS 

Q.  You  mentioned  about  the  Boy  Scouts  in  your  city.  A.  Yes, 
they  did  good  work  on  several  occasions.  They  have  been  there  lor 
quite  a  long  time.     My  brother-in-law  started  them. 

Q.  And  that  was  the  organization  that  the  Countess  Markievicz 
had  something  to  do  with?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     It  was  started  before  the  uprising  of  1916?     A.    Yes,  exactly. 

Q.  And  it  is  an  organization  like  the  general  Boy  Scout  move- 
ment, where  the  boys  learn  to  be  chivalrous,  and  have  games,  and 
the  like?  A.  Yes,  exactly.  My  brother-in-law  used  to  play  for 
them  with  his  violin  and  teach  them  Irish  songs. 

Q.  And  you  mean  that  the  Black-and-Tans  are  active  against 
these  Scouts  now?  A.  Yes.  As  I  said,  they  shot  one  of  them  dead, 
— this  boy  O'Handly,  a  boy  of  seventeen,  I  believe. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  Countess 
Markievicz's  case?  It  was  said  she  was  convicted  of  organizing 
Boy  Scouts.     A.     I  don't  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.     You  don't  know  anything  about  that  case?     A.     No. 

HARASSED  IN  EMPLOYMENT  BY  ENGLISH 
CUSTOMERS 

There  was  another  matter  I  should  mention.  Just  during  the  war 
on  a  few  occasions  people  came  into  my  place  of  business.  One 
lady  was  English.  She  spoke  with  an  English  accent.  And  she 
approached  the  manager  and  asked  the  manager  if  he  knew  that  he 
had  a  Sinn  Feiner  there,  a  person  with  my  dangerous  views.  Six 
weeks  later  she  came  in,  and  in  the  presence  of  all  the  people  said, 
"I  will  not  be  served  by  that  woman.  She  is  a  Sinn  Feiner."  And 
when  I  was  home  ill  it  happened  again. 

Q.  But  the  fact  remains  you  were  not  thrown  out  of  employment. 
A.  No,  of  course  not.  I  am  head  of  the  department.  But  it  has 
been  very  hard  on  me  for  several  years. 

Q.  What  is  this  American  Shoe  Company  you  mentioned?  A 
It  is  a  firm  that  sells  a  lot  of  American  shoes. 

Q.     And  they  burned  it?     A.     Yes. 

Chairman  Howe:  I  wish  you  would  keep  the  witness  on  more 
important  matters. 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  I  thought  it  was  important  to  know  if  they  were 
burning  American  shoes. 

Chairman  Howe:  But  she  does  not  know  who  owns  them. 


664 

Commissioner  Wood:  Does  the  Commission  wish  to  ask  any  more 
questions?     Do  you,  Mr.  Walsh? 

Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh:  That  is  all,  thank  you. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  did  not  see  anybody  struck  by 
these  whips?  You  only  heard  them  say  that  they  came  in  for  fear 
of  the  whips?     A.    Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  Mr.  F.  P.  Walsh :  Did  not  you  say  you  heard  the  crack  of  the 
whips?  A.  Yes,  yes,  I  did.  And  I  looked  out  just  before  and  1 
saw  one  of  the  Black-and-Tans  with  his  hand  in  a  man's  pocket, 
and  another  Black-and-Tan  flourishing  a  revolver. 

CURFI   ¥  PROTECTS  POLICE  IN  RAIDS  AND 
MURDERS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  About  this  night  you  were  telling 
about, — how  many  were  shot?     A.     Five, — three  men  and  two  boys. 

Q.     How  many  were  killed?     A.     Three  killed. 

Q.  How  many  police  were  in  that, — how  many  constables?  A.  I 
don't  know  how  many  were  in  it.  As  far  as  I  can  understand,  there 
was  a  lorry,  and  it  stopped  near  the  place.  Of  course,  it  was  during 
curfew  hours. 

Q.  So  when  the  people  have  to  be  in  their  homes  after  the  curfew 
hour,   and  when  nobody  is  on  the  streets,  these  raids  take   place? 

A.  Yes,  it  is  generally  after  nightfall  and  during  the  curfew 
hours  that  these  murders  take  place. 

Q.  And  this  discrimination  against  your  position,  was  that  gen- 
eral through  the  city  with  other  women  and  men?  A.  Well,  it 
was  in  the  case  of  the  men.  I  know  with  my  brother-in-law,  he  had 
a  hard  time  on  account  of  it  during  all  the  years  he  was  in  business. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  It  reminds  me  pretty  much  of  what  is  go- 
ing on  in  America  now. 

The  Witness:  I  don't  know  about  that. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Pretty  much  the  same  thing  that  we  are 
experiencing  in  my  state. 

Commissioner  Wood :  Thank  you  very  much,  Miss  Walsh. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  DANIEL  J.  BRODERICK 

I  The  witness  takes  the  stand) 

Q.     Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly  (of  counsel)  :  Will  you  give  your  name, 
please,  Mr.  Broderick?     A.     Daniel  J.  Broderick. 
Q.     Are  you  a  resident  of  Chicago?     A.     Yes,  sir. 
Q.     Where  were  you  born?     A.     I  was  born  in  Ireland. 
Q.     How  old  are  you?     A.     Twenty-four, 


665 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  United  States?  A.  Seven 
years. 

Q.     You  came  in  1913?     A.     1913,  the  latter  end. 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  become  an  American  citizen?  A.  I  became 
an  American  citizen  in  1917. 

SERVED  IN  UNITED  STATES  ARMY  AND  NAVY 

Q.  After  you  came  to  the  United  States  what  was  your  occupa- 
tion? A.  A  soldier  in  the  United  States  army.  I  enlisted  in 
May,   1914. 

Q.  What  rank  did  you  hold  in  the  United  States  army  during 
your  service?     A.     Well,  I  held  the  ranks  of  private  and  corporal. 

Q.  Where  did  you  serve?  A.  I  served  in  Minneapolis,  Minne- 
sota; and  Texas.  Arizona,  Oklahoma,  and  New  Mexico. 

Q.     You  went  on  Border  service?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  company?  A.  Company  D,  119th  United  States  In- 
fantry. 

Q.     When  did  you  leave  the  army?     A.     The  latter  end  of  1917. 

Q.  You  were  discharged  for  disability,  were  you  not?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Have  you  your  discharge  papers?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  that  period  you  were  on  the  Border,  you  saw  a  great 
deal  of  what  is  known  as  guerrilla  warfare?  A.  Yes,  sir;  quite  a 
great  deal. 

Q.  And  later  you  enlisted  in  the  United  States  navy?  A.  Yes, 
in  March,  1918,  I  enlisted  in  the  United  States  navy,  and  served  in 
the  navy  for  fourteen  months. 

Q.  What  rank  did  you  hold  in  the  navy?  A.  Gunner's  mate, 
second  class. 

SCOPE  OF  OBSERVATIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Have  you  been  in  Ireland  recently?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  in 
Ireland  from  September  fifth  to  December  fifth  of  this  present  year. 

Q.     You  have  just  returned?     A.     Just  returned. 

Q.  While  you  were  in  Ireland  what  part  of  the  country  did  you 
see?  Just  give  a  general  idea,  without  going  into  every  town, — just 
the  general  part  of  the  country  that  you  saw.  A.  Well,  I  saw 
Limerick  on  a  large  scale. 

Q.  Saw  practically  all  parts  of  the  County  of  Limerick?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  The  same  as  regards  County  Kerry  and  Cork,  and  a  little 
of  Tipperary. 

Q.  The  greater  part  of  the  time  what  town  were  you  in?  A. 
The  greater  part  of  the  time  I  was  in  Abbeyfeale. 

Q.  How  large  a  town  is  Abbeyfeale?  A.  Well,  it  is  a  little 
town  between  one  thousand  and  fifteen  hundred  inhabitants. 


666 

Q.  Whom  were  you  visiting  in  Abbey feale?  A.  My  father  and 
mother.    They  live  there. 

Q.  Have  they  any  children  besides  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir.  1 
have  six  brothers  and  two  sisters. 

INTRODUCTION  TO  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Now,  will  you  just  cover  briefly  the  events  in  Abbeyfeale 
during  the  time  that  you  were  there?  Just  what  happened  in  this 
small  town  during  the  time  that  you  were  there?  A.  Well,  I  left 
the  States  and  reached  Abbeyfeale  the  twelfth  of  September,  after 
spending  seven  days  in  Dublin.  And  the  next  day  after  I  got  there 
happened  to  be  a  Sunday,  and  my  brother  accompanied  me  to 
church.  And  the  only  Black-and-Tan  attached  to  the  garrison  there 
at  that  time,  he  accosted  my  brother  on  the  public  street;  and  my 
brother  happened  to  be  wearing  a  temperance  button  and  a  green 
tie;  and  he  snatched  the  temperance  button  off  and  threw  it  upon 
the  street,  and  he  pulled  the  tie  out  and  said  never  to  wear  that  tie 
again. 

Q.  Your  brother  is  a  member  of  a  temperance  society?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  happen  to  know  the  name  of  it?  A.  Well,  I  don't 
happen  to  know  the  name  of  it  now. 

Q.  But  this  button  showed  that  he  was  a  member  of  this  temper- 
ance society?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Proceed. 

ARSON,  LOOTING  AND  TERRORISM  AS  REPRISAL 

A.  A  week  afterwards,  on  the  19th  of  September,  there  was  a 
constable  killed  in  ambush  just  outside  the  town,  a  man  by  the  name 
of  Mahoney.  And  that  night  the  town  was  swarming  with  military, 
and  they  burned  several  houses,  looted  several  shops,  and  fired 
indiscriminately  into  dwelling  houses.  They  burned  the  town  hall. 
The  following  day  was  Sunday,  and  they  drove  the  people  off  the 
streets  with  fixed  bayonets  after  church. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  After  church?  A.  After  church, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  proportion  of  the  houses  in  that  town  was 
destroyed  by  that  fire?  A.  There  were  no  houses  completely 
burned,  but  several  were  wrecked,  and  bombs  placed  in  the  rooms 
destroyed  all  that  was  in  there.  That  would  be  about  five  per  cent, 
of  the  houses  in  the  town.  The  next  day  was  Monday,  and  I  hap- 
pened to  be  in  town. 

POLICY  OF  REPRISALS  UNKNOWN  IN  AMERICAN 
ARMY 

Q.  Before  we  pass  on  to  the  next  event,  do  you  know  anything 
about  how  this  ambush  took  place?     A.     I  do  not  know. 


667 

Q.  During  the  time  that  you  were  on  the  Border  did  ambushes 
lake  place?     A.     Yes.  sir,  several  times. 

Q.  What  were  the  orders  given  you  then?  A.  The  orders  from 
Washington  from  the  War  Department  were  not  to  shoot  to  kill,  but 
to  fire  over  their  heads  and  try  to  scare  them  off. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  policy  of  reprisals  when  you  were 
serving  on  the  Border?  A.  No,  not  in  my  time.  I  never  heard 
of  any. 

Q.  What  action  would  be  taken  if  the  troops  tried  a  reprisal  on 
a  Border  town?  A.  Well,  I  think  they  would  be  tried  by  court- 
martial  and  sentenced  from  two  to  five  years  in  Leavenworth. 

Q.  As  a  soldier,  you  know  that  there  would  be  a  court-martial  if 
soldiers  disobeyed  orders  and  shot  up  a  town?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

PEOPLE  LEAVE  HOMES  FOR  PROTECTION 

Q.  Just  proceed  with  the  account  of  the  shooting  up  of  Abbey- 
feale.  A.  The  following  night,  Monday  night,  there  was  a  general 
exodus  of  the  people  living  in  the  town.  They  left  for  the  country. 
Those  people  were  living  in  terror,  it  seemed  to  me.  They  were 
traveling  out  into  the  country  seeking  a  shelter  in  the  country 
homes.  That  night  the  town  was  deserted.  The  police  garrison  and 
the  military  were  the  only  people  in  the  town  that  night.  And  ot 
course  looting  went  on. 

Q.  Looting  by  whom?  A.  By  the  military  forces,  the  Black- 
and-Tans  and  the  military. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  see  them  yourself?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  not  that  night,  but  later  on. 

Q.     Not  that  night?    A.    No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  there  anybody  else  on  the  streets  that  night 
except  soldiers  and  the  Black-and-Tans?  A.  No.  There  were 
three  retired  R.  I.  C.  sergeants  in  the  town  who  were  living  there, 
and  from  local  opinion  which  I  gathered,  those  sergeants  prevailed 
on  the  military;  and  I  think  if  it  was  not  for  their  intervention  the 
town  would  have  been  burned  that  night.  Those  men  were  retired 
R.  I.  C.  sergeants  who  had  previously  served  in  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary. 

Q.  Where  did  the  population  go  that  night?  What  did  they  do? 
How  did  they  dispose  of  themselves?  A.  Why,  they  billeted  them- 
selves in  all  the  outlying  country  districts,  and  as  far  as  possible 
from  the  roads.  The  next  day  was  Monday.  That  was  market  day 
in  the  town.  The  military  were  very  prevalent,  patrolling  up  and 
down  the  streets.  And  I  reported  myself  to  the  barracks  that  day. 
We  were  told  in  Liverpool,  all  the  aliens — that  is,  all  the  American 
citizens — to  report  to  the  local  police  within  two  months  after  being 
in  the  country.  So  it  was  rather  chilly  and  I  was  wearing  my  over- 
coat, an  American  army  overcoat;  and  I  was  speaking  to  a  constable 


668 

in  the  hall  leading  into  the  day  room  where  those  men  were. 

Q.  You  went  to  report  yourself  according  to  instructions  to  the 
police?  A.  Yes.  There  were  several  R.  I.  C.  police  in  there,  and 
quite  a  few  Black-and-Tans.  And  I  heard  two  of  those  Black-and- 
Tans  speaking  of  me  with  a  personal  reference.  And  one  said, 
"Who  is  that  bloody  bloke  with  a  cockney  accent?"  And  the  other 
replied,  "He  is  one  of  those  bloody  Yankees  who  won  the  war." 

UNPROVOKED   MURDERS  BY   BLACK-AND-TAN 

Well,  that  night  a  man  named  Hartnett,  a  letter  carrier,  a  Govern- 
ment servant,  and  Healey,  a  blacksmith's  apprentice,  about  six 
o'clock  in  the  evening  were  driving  a  cow  to  pasture  a  little  way 
outside  the  town,  about  three  hundred  yards  from  their  own  homes. 
And  they  were  seen  by  this  Black-and-Tan,  the  one  I  have  already 
referred  to. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name?  A.  I  don't  know  his  name.  I  have 
heard  it,  but  so  many  things  have  cropped  up  since  that  I  have 
forgotten  it. 

Q.  But  he  was  the  only  Black-and-Tan  billeted  in  Abbeyfeale 
at  this  time?  A.  Yes,  the  only  Black-and-Tan  outside  of  the  new 
reinforcements  that  came  in.  He  followed  those  boys  about  three 
hundred  yards  outside  the  town  and  shot  them  both  dead. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  this?  A.  Why,  he  was  seen  by  some  of 
those  people  who  were  going  to  seek  shelter  in  the  country  that 
night.     I  spoke  to  some  who  saw  him. 

Q.  You  spoke  to  those  eye-witnesses?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  was  also 
seen  by  this  Healey's  father,  who  was  about  three  hundred  yards 
from  the  scene. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  This  was  about  six  o'clock  at  night? 
A.     Yes,  six  o'clock  in  the  evening. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  provocation  was  there  for  the  shooting,  as 
far  as  you  know?  A.  None  whatever,  because  there  was  proof 
brought  forward  afterwards  that  neither  of  those  boys  belonged  to 
the  Sinn  Fein  organization  or  the  Irish  Republican  Army.  In  fact, 
one  was  a  Government  servant,  a  letter  carrier.  And  Healey,  I 
went  to  school  with  Healey;  and  I  spoke  to  his  father  the  day  of  the 
funeral,  and  he  said  the  boy  was  not  connected  with  the  Sinn  Fein 
organization  in  any  way. 

Q.  When  were  their  bodies  found?  A.  They  were  found  the 
next  morning.  They  were  not  taken  in  until  the  next  morning,  and 
then  they  were  taken  in  to  the  local  barracks. 

INNOCENT  GIRL   OF  TEN  WANTONLY  SHOT 

Q.  Was  it  about  this  time,  or  was  it  a  little  later,  that  a  young 
girl  was  shot?     A.     No,  it  was  on  the  fifth  of  November  that  two 


669 

Black-and-Tans  by  the  names  of  Hawley  and  Allen  were  putting 
down  explosives  in  the  river  quite  near  the  town. 

Q.     Was  that  illegal?     A.     Beg  your  pardon? 

Q.  Was  that  killing  of  fish  by  explosives  illegal?  A.  No,  not 
according  to  English  law.  But  previous  to  that  time  the  Irish  people 
were  prosecuted  for  fishing  without  a  license  with  rod  and  line. 
But  those  men  were  using  explosives,  blasting  up  the  fish.  After 
getting  through  there,  they  saw  two  cattle  about  three  hundred  yards 
from  there;  they  saw  these  two  cows  on  the  river's  bank,  and  took 
pot  shots  at  them  and  killed  them  both.  They  belonged  to  a  man 
named  Greaney.  About  that  time  there  were  some  school  children 
about  two  hundred  yards  from  there  on  a  bridge  across  the  stream; 
and  when  they  heard  the  shots  they  screamed.  And  the  Black-and- 
Tans  shot  at  the  girls,  and  shot  one,  Peggy  Brosnan,  through  the 
leg,  inflicting  quite  a  serious  wound. 

Q.  How  old  was  she?  A.  About  ten  years  old.  I  spoke  to  her 
father  and  mother  afterwards.  They  had  spent  some  years  in  the 
United  States. 

Q.  And  you  spoke  to  the  girl  herself  later  and  learned  the  facts? 
A.  Yes.  later  from  the  girl,  and  from  her  father  and  mother,  1 
learned  of  the  shooting. 

HOME  WRECKED  AND   FIRED;  WOMAN  CLUBBED 

Q.  Just  proceed  with  the  other  things  you  learned  in  Abbeyfeale. 
A.  I  also  spoke  with  several  other  victims  of  the  Black-and-Tans. 
One  of  them  was  a  Mrs.  Hartnett. 

Q.  Was  she  related  to  the  other  Hartnett  you  have  testified 
about?  A.  I  do  not  think  so.  I  was  speaking  to  her  in  her  own 
house,  what  remained  of  it.  Some  evenings  previously  she  said  a 
military  lorry  had  stopped  at  her  place  and  told  her  to  get  out  in 
the  front  yard.  And  then  they  started  to  destroy  the  furniture 
inside,  and  poured  petrol  on  the  stairs  preparatory  to  setting  it  on 
fire.  At  the  same  time  her  son,  a  boy  of  about  twenty-two,  was 
upstairs  in  the  attic  in  bed  sick,  suffering.  He  was  a  victim  of 
tuberculosis.  And  all  the  time  he  was  there  while  the  military  were 
down  below  doing  their  work  of  destruction.  They  applied  several 
explosives  in  the  room  and  set  them  off,  wrecking  everything  and 
tearing  things  off  the  walls,  tearing  them  down  and  breaking  them. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  effects  of  those  explosions?  A.  Yes,  I  saw 
them. 

Q.  How  soon  afterwards  did  you  visit  them?  A.  About  four 
days  afterwards. 

Q.  About  when  did  this  occur?  A.  This  was  about  the  twenty- 
fourth  of  September. 

Q.     The  twenty-fourth  of  September?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  reason  was  given  for  this  treatment  of  Mrs.  Hartnett 


670 

and  her  property?  A.  Well,  it  seems  she  had  several  sons.  Most 
of  them  are  in  the  States.  One  is  in  another  part  of  the  country 
quite  distant  from  there.  Their  reason  was,  they  said,  that  her  son 
was  connected  with  the  Sinn  Fein  movement.  It  could  not  be  the 
boy  at  home,  because  he  was  an  invalid. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  What  happened  to  the  boy  in  the 
attic?  A.  Well,  the  stairs  were  on  fire,  so  there  was  no  way  for 
getting  down.  But  the  neighbors  were  on  the  lookout,  of  course, 
and  as  soon  as  the  military  had  departed,  they  came  and  rescued 
the  boy  and  put  out  the  fire.  Before  they  left,  one  of  the  soldiers 
struck  Mrs.  Hartnett  over  the  head  with  the  butt  of  his  rifle,  inflict- 
ing quite  a  serious  wound. 

Q.     Did  you  see  the  wound?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  wound?  A.  Well,  he  must 
have  hit  her  with  the  full  butt  of  his  rifle,  for  the  wound  was  about 
three  or  four  inches  long. 

Q.     Where  was  the  wound?     A.     Right  on  top  of  her  head. 

Q.  So  it  must  have  come  down  from  on  top?  A.  Yes,  sir.  She 
said  he  clubbed  his  rifle  and  struck  her. 

Q.  Was  this  a  Black-and-Tan?  A.  No.  One  of  the  regular 
military  force. 

DRUNKENNESS  COMMON  AMONG  CROWN  FORCES 

Q.  Now,  you  are  a  soldier  with  some  military  experience? 
A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  seen  these  Black-and-Tans  and  the  military  over 
there.  Did  they  conduct  themselves  as  soldiers?  A.  No,  sir.  They 
did  not.  Not  by  the  way  they  conducted  themselves  around  the 
streets  there.  One  point  in  a  good  soldier  is  that  he  must  be  sober 
while  on  duty.  And  I  have  seen  those  men  on  duty  and  they  were 
intoxicated. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  you  see  that  often?  Would  you  say 
that  is  a  common  occurrence?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     How  common?     A.     It  is  a  regular  practice. 

Q.     A  regular  practice?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Take  the  bodies  of  Black-and-Tans  that  you  saw. 
Would  you  say  that  a  large  number  of  the  parties  showed  evidence 
,of  being  intoxicated?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  them  anywhere  else  than  Abbeyfeale?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  have  seen  them  in  Limerick  and  Newcastle  West,  and  in 
LLstowel,  in  County  Kerry. 

Q.  Did  you  ascertain  where  they  got  their  liquor?  A.  Why, 
they  got  most  of  it  from  looting  stores  or  saloons  and  taking  what- 
ever they  wanted.  Of  course,  in  the  larger  cities  they  have  canteens 
in  the  barracks,  and  they  can  get  these  drinks  right  in  the  barracks. 


671 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Did  you  see  a  canteen  in  any  barracks? 
A.     Yes,  sir,  in  Limerick. 

Q.     You  were  in  the  barracks?     A.     Yes,  sir.     I  drank  there. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  What  kinds  of  whiskey  do  they  serve 
there?     A.     I  did  not  drink  any  whiskey;  just  Bass'  stout. 

Q.  Do  they  have  any  whiskey?  A.  I  don't  think  so.  Most  of 
the  drink  is  porter  and  stout, — Bass'  ale. 

Q.  Would  a  man  become  intoxicated  by  drinking  a  quantity  ot 
it?  A.  Surely,  surely.  It  doesn't  take  very  much  of  that  to  put  a 
man  in  good  spirits. 

Q.  Can  they  get  it  in  quantities?  A.  Yes,  sir;  in  large  bottles, 
and  any  other  way  they  want  it. 

THE  OLD  CONSTABULARY  WELL-DISCIPLINED 
FORCE 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Now,  you  are  a  man  of  military  experience, 
and  I  wish  you  would  describe  to  us  the  general  military  character- 
istics of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  and  the  Black-and-Tans  as 
you  saw  them,  and  the  military  authorities,  so  that  we  can  see 
through  your  eyes  just  how  those  organizations  are  officered,  what 
their  duties  are,  and  just  what  they  were  from  your  point  of  view. 
A.  Well,  the  old  R.  I.  C.  service,  I  saw  them — the  old  members 
— behave  just  like  any  military  body  should  do.  They  behaved  in 
military  manner.  They  were  well  officered  and  well  disciplined. 
And  from  what  I  have  seen  of  them  on  duty,  they  acted  with  all 
good  sense. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  instances  in  which  they  incited  to  trouble,  or 
aggravated  trouble,  or  were  guilty  of  reprisals?  A.  Well,  you 
speak  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary? 

Q.     I  am  speaking  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  they  confined  their  activities  to  maintain- 
ing order  and  ordinary  police  duties?  A.  Yes,  sir;  ordinary  police 
duties. 

Q.     As  far  as  you  have  seen?     A.     As  far  as  I  have  seen. 

Q.  They  do  what  you  would  expect  an  ordinary  policeman  to 
do?     A.    Yes,  sir;  in  every  respect. 

Q.  As  an  American,  you  can  speak  very  highly  of  the  old  R. 
I.  C?     A.     Yes,  sir,  of  what  I  have  seen  of  them. 

THE  BLACK-AND-TANS  LICENSED  PLUNDERERS 

Q.  Now  about  the  Black-and-Tans.  A.  The  Black-and-Tans 
seem  to  be  in  the  country  to  do  all  the  damage  and  commit  all  the 
destruction  that  they  possibly  can,  with  the  sanction  of  the  Govern- 
ment. And  it  would  seem  that  their  officers  have  authority,  and 
unlimited  authority,  to  do  destruction. 


672 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  How  did  you  get  that  idea?  A.  From 
their  actions, — the  way  I  saw  them  behave. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  No  restraint  on  them?  A.  No  restraint 
on  them  at  all. 

Q.  And  no  discipline?  A.  No  discipline  whatever.  I  am  speak- 
ing of  my  own  experience.  It  seemed  that  a  private  there  had  as 
much  authority  as  an  officer,  and  could  do  what  he  felt  like  without 
incurring  any  punishment. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  any  instances  of  punishment  of  Black-and- 
Tans?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Of  imprisonment  or  suspension  or  fines  or  reprimands? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  time  you  were  over  there,  you  never  knew  of  a  Black- 
and-Tan  being  punished?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  know  of  that?  A.  Well,  you  could  gather  it 
from  the  papers  if  such  was  the  case. 

Q.  And  you  as  a  soldier  were  mixing  among  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the 
Black-and-Tans  and  the  military?  A.  No,  I  spoke  to  some  of  them, 
but  I  was  not  interested  in  them. 

Q.  But  you  as  a  soldier  was  interested  in  their  life  and  what 
they  were  doing?  A.  No,  I  was  not.  I  spoke  to  the  head  sergeant 
and  one  of  the  local  constables. 

THE   REGULAR   MILITARY   POORLY    DISCIPLINED 

Q.  Now,  coming  to  the  regular  troops.  Were  there  any  of  them 
stationed  where  you  were?  A.  Yes,  there  were  in  Newcastle,  in 
the  County  of  Limerick. 

Q.     How  many  of  them  were  there?     A.     About  three  hundred. 

Q.  Were  they  properly  officered?  A.  There  were  plenty  of 
officers  there,  but  they  had  no  restraint  over  the  men. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Now,  go  on  in  your  own  way  and  describe 
them.  A.  I  have  seen  them  travel  along  the  roads  there,  and  if  a 
dog  barked  at  their  trucks — lorries,  as  they  call  them — that  dog 
would  be  instantly  shot.  And  it  was  a  regular  habit  of  theirs  to 
shoot  at  houses  adjoining  the  public  road,  and  to  take  pot  shots  at 
cattle  along  the  road  as  they  went  along.  In  the  evenings  at  New- 
castle West,  I  have  seen  even  non-commissioned  officers  make  very 
insulting  remarks  to  some  young  ladies  in  that  town. 

Q.  Was  there  any  evidence  that  they  drank  like  the  Black-and- 
Tans?     A.     Well,  I  should  think  so. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  see  them?  A.  No,  I  did  not  see  them,  but 
I  should  think  that  a  man  would  have  to  be  very  much  under  the 
influence  of  drinks  to  make  such  remarks, — that  is,  if  he  was  a  man. 

Q.  Was  discipline  maintained  among  the  military  branch  as  well 
as  among  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary?     A.    No,  not  quite  as  well. 


673 

Q.  But  these  men  in  the  military  branch  were  better  than  the 
Black-and-Tans?     A.     Yes,  better. 

Q.  Were  they  used  in  the  raids  like  the  Black-and-Tans?  A. 
Yes,  like  the  Black-and-Tans  in  the  burning  of  creameries  and  in 
chasing  members  of  the  Sinn  Fein  organization. 

Q.  That  was  pretty  much  done  by  the  military  and  the  Black- 
and-Tans?     A.     Yes,  by  the  military  and  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  You  saw  some  of  this,  did  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SUCH   CONDUCT   SEVERELY    PUNISHED    IN 
AMERICAN  ARMY 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  If  you  were  in  the  army  and  went  out 
on  an  expedition  of  some  kind  and  had  shot  into  houses  and  shot 
cattle  and  that  sort  of  thing,  what  would  have  been  the  result  to  you 
as  a  soldier?  A.  Why,  I  would  have  been  arrested  and  tried  by 
court-martial  and  sentenced  to  Leavenworth  '  or  Alcatraz  in  Cali- 
fornia. 

Q.     When  you  were  on  the  Border  you  never  saw  such  actions? 

A.     No,  sir;  it  never  happened. 

Q.  It  never  happened.  And  you  are  satisfied  that  if  any  Amer- 
ican soldier  behaved  in  such  a  way,  he  would  be  punished?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  he  would  certainly  be  punished. 

SOFT-POINT   BULLETS   USED   BY   POLICE   AND 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  ascertain  the  character  of  any  of  the 
ammunition  that  was  supplied  to  the  Black-and-Tans?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Relate  the  circumstances  under  which  you  got  this  informa- 
tion. A.  I  was  speaking  to  a  sergeant  at  Abbeyfeale, — I  will  not 
mention  his  name, — and  I  asked  him  to  examine  his  revolver,  and 
he  said  I  could  not  do  that;  and  I  knew  that,  because  he  was  on 
patrol.  And  he  said,  "I  will  let  you  examine  the  ammunition." 
And  I  said,  "What  was  it?"  It  was  a  .45,  and  the  bullets,  instead  of 
being  pointed  at  the  end  like  ours,  they  were  flat. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  They  were  flat-end,  Mr.  Broderick? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  shaped  something  like  this.  Do  you  want  to  see  it? 
(Producing  bullet  as  exhibit.  I 

Q.     And  they  were  soft  lead?     A.     Yes,  sir;  soft  lead  bullets. 

Q.  From  your  own  experience,  what  would  be  the  character  of 
the  wound  inflicted  by  that  bullet?  A.  Why,  I  should  think  that  it 
was  moulded  in  that  way  to  rip  more  and  do  more  damage  than  the 
ordinary  type  of  bullet,  because  when  this  strikes  a  bone  it  will 
spread  and  flatten  out;  and  even  when  it  only  strikes  the  flesh,  it  will 
flatten  out  and  enlarge  all  the  more  and  tear  its  way  through. 


674 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  any  of  that  same  type  of  ammunition 
anywhere  else?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  this?  A.  In  Abbeyfeale,  I  asked  a  Black-and- 
Tan  to  see  his  ammunition,  and  he  had  the  same  thing,  the  flat-nose 
bullets.  And  I  asked  him  if  that  was  the  kind  of  ammunition  sup- 
plied to  the  military  in  Ireland.  And  he  said  yes,  that  the  army  of 
occupation  is  armed  with  this.  This  is  revolver  ammunition.  (In- 
dicating.) 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Is  this  what  is  known  as  the  dum-dum 
bullet?  A.  I  don't  think  so.  You  can  make  a  dum-dum  bullet  out 
of  an  ordinary  bullet  by  putting  a  few  notches  in  the  end,  so  that 
it  will  spread  out  when  it  hits  a  bone. 

Q.  That  is,  a  dum-dum  bullet  can  be  made  out  of  an  ordinary 
kind  of  bullet  by  notching  the  end?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  bullets  of  this  kind  over  here?  A.  No, 
sir;  not  on  this  side  of  the  water. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  those  bullets  milled  that  way?  Or 
are  they  moulded?     A.     Yes,  sir,  they  are  moulded  like  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood :  Those  were  lead  instead  of  steel  ? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Had  you  any  other  information  that  this 
kind  of  ammunition  was  used  in  other  places  than  this  town?  A. 
No,  sir;  this  was  the  only  town  I  had  a  chance  to  find  out. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  These  were  both  Black-and-Tans? 
A.  No.  One  was  a  Black-and-Tan  and  the  other  was  an  R.  I.  C. 
man. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  were  known  in  that  town  by  that  time? 
A.     Yes,  I  had  been  there  for  two  months. 

Q.  You  had  become  known  there  then,  so  that  they  got  to  talk 
to  you  in  a  friendly  sort  of  way?  A.  Yes,  I  talked  to  them  in  a 
friendly  sort  of  way,  because  I  had  no  animosity  against  the  men. 

Q.  You  visited  Dublin  also?  A.  Yes,  I  visited  Dublin  for 
seven  days.  The  military  were  very  much  in  evidence  there.  Ar- 
mored cars  patrolled  the  streets.  I  saw  the  military  searching  sev- 
eral people  on  the  streets  on  several  occasions. 

Q.     Commissioner  Wood:   In  the  day  time?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

UNRESTRAINED  LOOTING  OF  SHOPS 

Q.  Major  Newman:  A  little  while  ago,  in  response  to  one  of  the 
questions,  you  said  that  you  personally  had  knowledge  of  looting. 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Was  that  at  Abbeyfeale?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  describe  the  circumstances  in  connec- 
tion with  the  looting  that  you  saw?  A.  Well,  I  saw  it  when  I  was 
in  a  store  there  one  evening.  I  was  in  the  kitchen  in  the  back,  and 
I  heard  some  angry  words  outside.     The  proprietor  of  this  store 


675 

happened  to  be  a  widow.     There  were  three  Blaek-and-Tans  outside. 

Q.  Can  you  give  her  name?  A.  No,  I  do  not  know  the  names 
of  those  men. 

Q.  I  say,  can  you  give  the  widow's  name?  A.  Yes,  Mrs.  Ma- 
eauley.  And  those  men, — one  of  them  was  helping  himself  to  what- 
ever was  inside  the  counter  and  passing  it  out  to  the  two  fellows 
who  were  outside,  and  the  widow  was  standing  by  and  watching. 

Q.  Did  she  protest?  A.  She  did.  She  protested,  but  they  said 
they  would  take  what  they  wanted;  that  they  deserved  it.  So  they 
took  some  soap  and  took  a  ham  and  three  or  four  cases  of  cigarettes. 

Q.  By  that  you  mean  cartons,  large  boxes?  A.  Yes,  cartons. 
And  a  box  of  cigars.  And  then  they  left,  and  said  she  should  be 
very  glad  that  they  did  not  take  the  money  that  was  in  the  cash 
register.    And  besides,  they  had  several  drinks  there  before  leaving. 

Q.     In  there?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  was  the  drink?     A.     It  was  stout, — Guinness'  stout. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  they  pay  for  the  drinks?  A.  No,  sir. 
I  was  in  a  store  on  another  occasion,  and  two  Blaek-and-Tans  came 
into  the  saloon.  I  was  there  getting  some  photographs  for  my 
brother  and  sister  who  were  coming  to  this  country,  and  the  photo- 
graphs happened  to  be  left  in  this  house.  And  I  was  waiting  there 
for  them  to  be  completed  when  those  two  Blaek-and-Tans  came  in 
and  ordered  two  drinks,  one  a  whiskey  and  the  other  man  a  bottle  of 
porter.  They  drank  it,  and  there  was  no  money  coming  up.  And 
they  ordered  two  more.  They  got  them,  and  she  demanded  the 
price.  They  said  they  did  not  have  to  pay  for  the  four  drinks;  that 
they  could  take  all  they  wanted  anyhow.     And  then  they  walked  out. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  any  other  cases  of  looting  that  you 
know  of  personally?  A.  Yes,  I  was  in  Brosna,  County  of  Kerry, 
just  about  four  days  before  I  left  for  home. 

Q.  That  is,  about  four  days  before  you  returned  to  the  United 
States?  A.  Yes.  And  it  seemed  that  three  military  trucks  full  of 
military  had  been  there  the  day  before  (it  was  on  a  Saturday),  and 
had  looted  several  stores  there.  One  of  the  people  who  were  af- 
fected by  this  I  was  speaking  to  at  that  time, — a  party  by  the  name 
of  Morrissey,  and  he  was  telling  me  that  they  had  taken  from  him 
shoes  and  stockings  and  underwear  and  tobacco  and  cigarettes. 
Then  I  was  in  another  place  there,  Murphy's,  and  there  they  took 
some  money  that  was  in  the  cash  register,  and  also  helped  them- 
selves to  some  drink.  And  when  they  were  through  drinking,  they 
turned  on  the  faucets  on  the  porter  barrels  and  the  whiskey  barrels 
and  let  them  run.     They  looted  five  stores  altogether. 

Q.  Is  it  a  general  condition  that  the  Blaek-and-Tans  refuse  to 
pay  for  drink,  or  are  these  isolated  cases?  A.  Well,  the  regular 
garrison  in  the  towns  in  most  cases  will  pay  for  what  they  get,  but 
these  raiding  parties  and  those  fellows  riding  in  those  motor  trucks 


676 

do  most  of  this  destruction  and  most  of  the  looting.     The  regular 
garrisons  are  not  as'  had  as  the  others. 

MILITARY    MANUFACTURE    EVIDENCE    TO 
CONVICT  REPUBLICANS 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  any  Dublin  police  while  you  were  in  Dublin? 
A.     Yes,  I  spoke  to  several  of  the  Dublin  police. 

Q.  They  were  members  of  the  Metropolitan  Police?  A.  Yes. 
Some  of  the  men  I  spoke  to  had  been  on  the  force  for  a  period  of 
from  twenty-five  to  twenty-eight  years. 

Q.  They  police  the  city  of  Dublin,  as  I  understand  it.  A.  Yes, 
they  police  the  streets,  and  confine  themselves  to  regular  police 
duties. 

Q.  Are  they  armed?  A.  No,  sir.  I  spoke  to  several  of  those 
men,  and  talked  about  raids.  And  they  told  me  that  most  of  the 
evidence  got  up  to  convict  certain  parties,  certain  Sinn  Feiners  or 
members  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army,  was  manufactured  evidence 
by  the  military;  that  when  a  military  raiding  party  went  to  a  house, 
they  split  up,  and  one  party  would  go  into  a  room,  and  another 
party  into  the  next  room;  and  one  party  would  plant  some  ammu- 
nition or  maybe  a  revolver  underneath  the  pillow  or  underneath  the 
mattress.  They  would  leave  that  room,  and  proceed  to  the  next 
place,  while  the  party  in  the  next  room  would  be  waiting,  and  go 
into  this  room  and  find  the  manufactured  evidence,  thereby  getting 
evidence  to  convict  the  party. 

Q.  Who  was  it  told  you  this?  I  don't  want  you  to  give  his  name 
if  you  think  it  would  endanger  his  life.  A.  I  will  not  give  this 
party's  name.  There  were  two  or  three  officers  I  spoke  to,  all  old 
members. 

Q.  Had  you  known  them  from  your  previous  visits  there?  A. 
Yes,  I  had  known  them  from  former  years. 

Q.  These  were  personal  friends?  A.  Yes,  personal  friends.  It 
seems  that  they  had  got  this  information  from  military  officers  who 
had  taken  part  in  those  raids. 

Q.  They  were  members  of  the  Metropolitan  Police  themselves? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  participate  in  those  raids?  A.  No,  sir.  The  mili- 
tary are  reinforced  by  the  Black-and-Tans,  and  they  do  all  this 
raiding.  I  could  not  say  if  the  G  Division  of  the  Dublin  Metropoli- 
tan Police  took  part  in  those  raids. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  These  statements  about  manufactured  evi- 
dence were  given  to  you  by  whom?  A.  By  members  of  the  Dublin 
Metropolitan  Police. 


677 

SUPERIOR  EFFICIENCY  OF  SINN  FEIN  COURTS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  the  Sinn  Fein  courts  in  action  while  you 
were  in  Ireland?     A.     \  es,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  district  in  which  you  were?  A.  Yes,  sir;  right  in 
the  immediate  neighborhood  where  I  lived  there.  There  were  two 
eases  tried  in  Sinn  Fein  courts  and  settled  satisfactorily  while  I  was 
there. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  hear  those  cases?     A.     No,  sir. 

Senator  Walsh:  I  would  suggest,  Mr.  Manly,  that  the  witness  be 
confined  to  facts  of  his  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  did  those  facts  become  known  to  you? 
A.  I  interviewed  the  people,  the  plaintiff  and  defendant  in  this  land 
case,  and  it  was  settled  satisfactorily  to  both  parties. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  case,  as  the  plaintiff  and 
defendant  told  you?  A.  Why,  the  case  was  where  a  brother  and 
sister  were  on  this  certain  farm.     The  brother  got  married,  and — 

Senator  Walsh:  Wait  a  moment.  Mr.  Manly,  we  do  not  want  to 
curtail  the  inquiry,  but  is  not  his  evidence  sufficient,  that  two  cases 
have  been  tried  and  tried  satisfactorily,  without  going  into  details, 
don't  you  think? 

Mr.  Manly:  I  am  personally  willing  to  dismiss  the  matter  if  the 
Commission  wishes  to  do  so,  but  I  thought  the  Commission  might 
wish  to  get  some  more  definite  information  about  the  character  of 
cases  handled  in  these  courts.  And  in  this  particular  case  (to 
witness)  : 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  this  court  quickly  determined  a  case  that  had 
been  in  the  British  courts  for  a  long  time?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  had  been 
in  the  British  courts  for  about  two  years;  and  finally  it  was  tried  in 
the  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  it  was  settled  satisfactorily  to  both  parties. 

Q.  And  you  interviewed  the  plaintiff  and  defendant?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  both  parties. 

Q.  And  they  had  taken  the  case  voluntarily  to  this  court? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  It  was  over  the  division  of  land? 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  It  was  over  the  division  of  an  estate  between  a 
brother  and  sister?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Senator  Walsh:  They  were  relatives  of  yourself?    A.   Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  long  was  it  in  the  British  courts? 
A.     About  two  years. 

Q.     How  long  in  the  Sinn  Fein  courts?     A.     About  a  week. 

Q.  It  took  about  a  week  to  dispose  of  it  in  the  Sinn  Fein  courts, 
and  about  two  years  in  the  British  courts?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Were  the  parties  represented  by  lawyers? 
A.  I  don't  think  so,  because  if  it  is  known  that  the  Sinn  Fein  courts 
are  to  be  held,  naturally  there  will  be  a  raid. 


678 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  any  British  courts  held  at  Abbey- 
feale?  A.  No,  there  were  no  British  courts  held  in  that  neighbor- 
hood, as  far  as  I  could  see.    The  courthouse  was  closed. 

Q.  But  these  Sinn  Fein  courts  were  held  there  regularly?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  every  week. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  the  people  know  generally  that  they 
were  sitting?  A.  Well,  those  concerned  knew  that  they  were  sit- 
ting. The  people  know  they  are  sitting,  but  they  do  not  know 
exactly  the  location. 

Q.  Why  do  not  the  Black-and-Tans  know  they  are  sitting?  A. 
Why,  because  the  people  do  not  see  fit  to  give  them  any  information. 

PEOPLE   ALMOST    UNANIMOUSLY    BEHIND 
REPUBLIC 

Q.  Were  there  no  informers?  A.  Well,  in  the  neighborhood 
from  which  I  come  from  there  were  not. 

Q.     Is  that  generally  true?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  an  army  of  occupation  is  unable  to  get  any  information 
frOm  the  people  themselves?  A.  They  might  get  the  information 
from  other  parties,  as  far  as  I  know,  but  I  never  heard  of  any  case 
of  where  the  people  themselves  informed. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  any  case  of  informers?  A.  No,  sir. 
There  may  have  been  informers  in  a  city  like  Dublin,  but  not  in 
Abbeyfeale. 

Q.  So  the  Irish  people  do  not  give  one  another  away?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  that  section  where  you  were  sympathetic  with 
the  Sinn  Fein  movement?     A.     Sympathetic? 

Q.     Yes.     A.     Yes,  sir,  about  99  per  cent. 

Q.  And  the  other  1  per  cent.?  A.  They  were  lukewarm  in  their 
views. 

ASYLUM  PATIENTS  TERRIFIED  BY  REPEATED 
RAIDS 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  raids  that  occurred  on  asylums  or  work- 
houses while  you  were  there?  A.  Yes,  I  spoke  to  a  nurse  in  a 
workhouse  *  in  Newcastle  West,  and  she  said  that  the  military  had 
been  there  several  times  searching  for  arms  and  also  for  possible 
Sinn  Fein  patients  who  might  be  there  suffering  from  gunshot 
wounds.  And  they  turned  the  place  into  an  awful  confusion  and 
terrified  all  the  patients. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood :  They  came  there  searching  for  Sinn 
Feiners  who  had  been  wounded?     A.     Yes,  also  for  arms. 


The  British  workhouse  is  not  a  penal  institution  but  an  almshouse. 


679 

TRAVEL  RESTRICTIONS,  SEARCHES,  AND 
CONFISCATIONS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  also  experience  any  restrictions  on 
travel?     A.     \es,  sir. 

Q.  Without  going  into  details,  just  give  their  general  character. 
A.  Well,  the  first  evening,  I  was  going  south  from  Dublin,  and 
missed  my  train  from  Tralee  to  Abbeyfeale.  There  was  only  one 
train  running  a  day,  and  so  I  had  to  take  a  taxi  home.  It  is  a 
distance  of  over  thirty  miles,  between  thirty  and  forty  miles.  And 
just  outside  the  town  of  Tralee  I  noticed  a  patrol  stationed  along 
the  road  at  distances  from  eighteen  to  twenty-five  yards.  And  when 
we  came  up  to  the  first  patrol,  he  pressed  his  rifle  to  the  driver's 
head  and  told  him  to  stop,  and  told  me  to  get  out  and  to  put  my 
hands  up,  and  began  searching  me  before  I  could  say  a  word,  and 
before  I  could  tell  him  that  I  was  an  American  citizen.  When  I  did 
tell  him  that  I  was  an  American  and  had  my  passport  there,  he  said, 
"I  don't  give  a  damn  if  you  are  the  American  President,  we  are 
going  to  search  your  baggage  if  you  never  get  on."  This  was  about 
six  o'clock  in  the  evening,  and  we  had  about  forty  miles  to  go  to 
get  home. 

Q.  Did  you  show  him  your  passport?  A.  Yes;  he  showed  it  to 
another  member  of  the  patrol. 

Q.  Did  they  search  your  baggage?  A.  Yes.  I  had  to  unlock 
my  baggage  and  it  was  searched  right  there  in  the  road.  It  took 
about  twenty  minutes. 

Q.  And  your  person  was  searched?  A.  Yes,  my  person  was 
searched.     Do  you  want  any  other  instances? 

Q.  Are  automobiles  permitted  to  go  freely  around  the  country? 
A.  No,  there  are  great  restrictions  on  automobiles.  I  was  told 
before  I  left  by  several  automobile  owners  that  before  you  can  make 
application  for  a  license,  you  must  have  the  machine  bought  and 
in  your  possession;  and  if  the  local  military  authorities  do  not  see 
fit  to  give  you  a  license,  they  can  commandeer  your  car.  And  when 
I  left  there  an  automobile  could  not  travel  any  more  than  twenty 
miles,  within  a  radius  of  twenty  miles,  from  its  garage. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  the  Irish  railways?  What  was  the 
condition  at  the  time  you  left?  Were  they  running?  A.  Well, 
they  were  running,  but  not  very  well.  In  some  places  there  was  only 
one  train  a  day  on  certain  lines. 

Q.  So  that  the  only  method  of  travel  left  is  by  automobile, — that 
is,  quick  travel?     A.     Yes,  by  automobile  for  quick  travel. 

Q.  And  that  is  restricted  to  twenty  miles?  A.  Yes.  If  you 
want  to  go  further  you  have  to  transfer. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  How  did  you  get  that  forty  miles? 
A.    What  is  that? 


680 

Q.  You  said  you  had  to  go  forty  miles  to  get  home,  and  auto- 
mobiles could  only  go  twenty  miles  from  their  garage.  A.  Well, 
that  was  before  this  was  passed. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  long  ago  was  this?  A.  About  a  month  or 
six  weeks  ago. 

Q.  Previous  to  that  you  could  go  more  than  twenty  miles,  but 
you  were  in  danger  of  having  your  car  confiscated?  A.  Yes,  there 
were  some  cases  where  automobile  owners  had  their  cars  confiscated 
by  the  military,  and  brought  back  to  them  wrecks,  and  no  effort 
made  to  compensate  them.  In  one  case  I  was  speaking  to  a  particu- 
lar taxi  owner,  and  he  had  his  car  confiscated  by  the  military  and 
never  returned. 

Q.     Where  was  this?     A.     In  Abbeyfeale. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  owner?  A.  Yes,  sir.  His 
name  was  Danagher.  And  this  car  was  never  returned,  and  no  effort 
made  to  compensate  him  for  the  loss  of  the  car. 

DESTRUCTION  OF  CREAMERIES 

Q.  Now,  are  there  any  other  things  of  which  you  know  that  you 
think  would  be  valuable  to  this  inquiry  that  we  have  not  covered? 
A.  Well,  there  was  a  regular  destruction  of  creameries  going  on 
over  there. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  think  that  has  been  fairly  well  covered  by  a  pre- 
vious witness. 

Q.     Commissioner   Wood:   Did  you  see   any  of  them   yourself? 

A.     I  was  speaking  to  several  Volunteers. 

Q.     Whom?     Volunteers?     A.    Yes,  several  Volunteers. 

Q.  Of  the  Irish  Republican  Army?  A.  Of  the  Irish  Republican 
Army.  They  told  me  that  the  military  came  up  and  deliberately 
and  maliciously  set  fire  to  this  creamery. 

REPEATED  SEARCHES  IMPEDE  TRAVEL 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  other  matters  of  which  you  were 
an  eye-witness  that  you  think  you  ought  to  speak  of?  A.  Well, 
except  what  happened  to  myself. 

Q.  What  was  that?  A.  I  cycled  one  time  to  Limerick.  If  you 
do  not  have  a  bicycle,  you  are  out  of  luck  over  there  now,  for  you 
will  have  to  walk. 

Q.  What  was  the  occasion  of  your  making  this  trip  to  Limerick? 
A.  Well,  I  had  to  get  a  local  passport.  You  had  to  register  with 
the  County  Inspector,  and  you  got  something  like  this  (producing 
paper) . 

Q.     That  is  the  local  passport  issued  to  you?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  That  is  necessary  to  travel  in  Ireland? 
A.     Yes,  if  you  are  to  stay  over  two  months  in  the  country.     Well, 


681 

all  the  way  to  Limerick  I  met  military  trucks,  and  they  seemed  to 
want  to  take  all  the  road.  I  would  give  them  all  the  road,  and  they 
would  pull  in  close  to  me  and  cover  me  with  mud.  I  met  several 
patrols,  and  every  one  of  them  stopped  me  and  searched  me.  I  had 
a  white  shirt  when  I  started,  but  before  I  got  there  it  was  black  from 
their  handling  of  me.  I  had  a  small  kodak,  a  Brownie  Number  Two, 
in  the  pocket  of  my  overcoat  thrown  over  my  handlebars;  and  they 
even  made  me  take  that  apart  to  see  if  it  contained  arms. 

Q.  Did  you  have  your  American  passport?  A.  Yes;  if  I  did 
not  have  that,  I  think  I  would  have  received  rough  handling.  And 
when  I  showed  that,  they  appeared  very  antagonistic  to  me. 

i 
MARK   OF  RESPECT  FOR   DEAD   FORBIDDEN 

Q.  Were  you  in  any  of  the  towns  the  day  that  the  hunger  strikers 
died?     A.     \es,  sir;  I  was  in  Abbeyfeale. 

Q.  What  did  the  people  of  Abbeyfeale  do?  A.  In  order  to 
show  their  respect  for  the  dead,  they  put  up  the  shutters  to  the 
windows.     They  did  this  when  Fitzgerald  died. 

Q.  He  was  one  of  the  hunger  strikers  who  died  in  Cork  previous 
to  the  death  of  the  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  happened  then?  A.  The  Black-and-Tans  came  around 
about  twelve  o'clock.  They  came  and  ordered  all  the  people  to  take 
down  their  shutters  under  penalty  of  having  their  premises  burned 
and  themselves  shot.  I  was  in  Newcastle  the  day  that  Lord  Mayor 
MacSwiney  died,  and  the  cadets  there — 

Q.  Who  are  the  cadets?  A.  They  are  formed  from  ex-soldiers 
of  the  British  army. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Are  they  members  of  the  British  army? 
A.     They  operate  separately. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  That  is  what  is  called  the  auxiliary  force? 
A.     I  think  so. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  what  their  duties  are?  A.  They 
go  on  raiding  parties. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  What  did  you  see  them  do  this  day?  A.  I 
saw  them  tear  the  shutters  off  the  houses  there  in  several  cases.  In 
one  house, — it  was  a  widow  with  a  large  family,  and  she  said  she 
did  not  have  anybody  to  lake  down  the  shutters,  and  they  went  in 
and  took  down  the  shutters,  and  threw  them  out  in  the  street  instead 
of  placing  them  against  the  walls,  they  threw  them  out  in  the  street 
in  Newcastle.  Also,  they  told  the  people  to  take  down  their  shutters 
under  penalty  of  having  their  property  burned. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  And  these  shutters  were  put  up  out  of 
respect  for  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney?     A.     Yes,  sir. 


682 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  They  put  up  these  shutters  to  show  their  respect 
for  the  Lord  Mayor  on  the  occasion  of  his  death?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

SEARCHED   THIRTY-THREE   TIMES   IN   THREE 
MONTHS 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  You  were  in  Ireland  how  long?  A.  I  was 
in  Ireland  about  three  months. 

Q.  How  many  times  were  you  subjected,  in  your  home  or  on  the 
roads  or  on  the  streets,  to  being  searched?  A.  I  never  was  searched 
in  my  home. 

Q.  But  how  many  times  on  the  streets  and  roads, — accurately, 
now?     A.     I  was  searched  about  thirty-three  times. 

Q.  How  many  times  was  a  revolver  displayed  to  you? — pointed 
at  you?     A.    Twice,  I  think.    Yes,  on  two  occasions. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer:  Pointed  at  you?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  you  see  other  people  held  up  by  revol- 
vers? A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  seen  lots  of  other  people  held  up  by 
revolvers  and  rifles  with  fixed  bayonets. 

Q.     Men  or  women?     A.    Men  and  women. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  As  a  soldier,  what  would  you  think 
of  a  man  that  would  hold  up  an  unarmed  man  or  women  or  children 
with  a  gun?  A.  I  would  think  that  he  would  be  a  poor  type  of 
man  and  soldier. 

Q.  Would  you  care  to  go  into  a  real  battle  with  that  kind  of  a 
man?     A.     Would  I  care  to  go  into  battle  with  him? 

Q.  Yes,  would  you  care  to  have  such  a  man  fighting  with  you 
in  a  real  battle?  A.  I  would  not  care  to  do  so,  because  it  would 
not  be  safe. 

i 
A  COUNTRY  OF  WIDOWS 

Q.  Now,  every  witness  speaks  of  widow  so-and-so,  and  this 
widow  and  that  widow.  Everyone  speaks  of  the  widows  over  there. 
What  becomes  of  the  men?  A.  Why,  the  majority  of  them  are  shot. 
That  is  about  all  I  can  say. 

Q.  It  seems  like  there  is  a  campaign  of  annihilation,  does  it? 
A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  they  widows  of  men  killed  in  the  great  war, 
or  during  the  present  trouble?     A.     Both. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  suppose  the  British  troops  claim  that  the 
women  help  the  men  conceal  themselves  and  their  arms,  and  that 
is  why  they  justify  themselves  in  holding  up  women  and  children. 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  It  seems  to  me  that  they  would  not  have 
to  use  a  gun  with  a  fixed  bayonet  to  hold  up  women  or  children. 


683 

Senator  Walsh:  I  was  not  considering  the  necessity.     I  was  only 
getting  at  the  motive. 

Mr.  Manly:  Thank  you  very  much. 
I  The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 
Adjournment  4:48  P.  M. 


FOURTH  HEARINGS 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 
Session  Three 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Thursday,  December  23,  1920.  Acting  Chairman  Howe 
presiding. 

10:15  A.  M. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  sessions  will  begin. 

TESTIMONY  OF   MRS.  MICHAEL  MOHAN 

Q.  Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly:  Will  you  state  your  name  to  the  Com- 
mission?    A.     Mrs. 'Michael  Mohan. 

Q.  And  where  do  you  reside?  A.  33  West  Hayes  Avenue, 
Corona,  Long  Island. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born?     A.    Ireland. 

Q.     At  Queenstown?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  came  to  the  United  States? 
A.    Eighteen. 

Q.     Your  husband  is  an  American  citizen?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Were  you  married  in  the  United  States?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  When  did  you  last  visit  Ireland?  A.  I  landed  on  May 
thirtieth  of  this  year  on  the  Baltic. 

Q.  And  what  was  the  purpose  of  your  visit?  A.  To  visit  my 
parents. 

Q.  And  where  do  you  reside?  A.  The  Hill  House,  Queens- 
town. 

Q.     And  how  long  were  you  in  Ireland?     A.     Six  months. 

Q.     You  returned  when?     A.     I  left  there  November  fourth. 

Q.  Your  father's  business  is  a  large  general  store  business? 
A.     Yes,  a  grocery,  wine,  and  spirit  business. 

Q.  Like  all  the  other  stores  in  Ireland,  they  combine  these 
things?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  So  that  there  are  a  great  many  people  going  and  coming? 
A.  Yes,  all  the  time.  That  is  how  I  came  in  touch  witli  so  much 
over  there. 

CONDITIONS   IN   QUEENSTOWN 

Q.  What  were  the  conditions  when  you  went  to  Queenstown? 
A.  Well,  it  was  not  so  very  bad  then.  Of  course,  there  was  a  large 
number  of  soldiers  there. 

684 


685 

Q.  Were  raids  being  conducted  then?  A.  No,  not  for  a  short 
time  after  I  landed. 

Q.  Were  houses  being  searched?  A.  Yes,  they  were  continually 
being  searched  then. 

Q.  But  no  property  was  destroyed?  A.  No,  no  property  was 
being  destroyed. 

Q.  About  when  did  raids  and  violence  seem  to  begin  in  Queens- 
town?     A.     About  the  end  of  June. 

Q.     How  many  brothers  have  you?     A.     Two  living. 

Q.  Do  they  reside  at  your  father's  house?  A.  They  have  not 
been  home  for  two  months.  One  is  twenty  and  the  other  is 
twenty-one. 

Q.     They  are  on  the  run?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Because  they  are  Sinn  Feiners?  Did 
someone  try  to  arrest  them?  A.  Oh,  yes;  even  shot  at  the  younger 
one. 

Mr.  Manly:  We  will  bring  out  some  specific  instances  that  relate 
to  those  matters. 

RAIDERS   INSULT  AMERICAN  FLAG 

Q.  What  was  the  first  large  raid, — what  was  the  date?  A.  Au- 
gust 27th. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  about  the  occurrences  on  that  night?  A.  Yes. 
On  the  night  of  August  27th  the  Volunteers  came  up  and  told  every- 
body to  put  their  lights  out,  and  told  everybody  to  clear  oft  the 
streets. 

Q.  What  reason  did  the  Volunteers  give?  A.  Because  they 
were  raiding  down  town,— the  soldiers  and  police. 

Q.  They  brought  the  message?  A.  Yes,  they  always  do  when 
those  raids  are  on. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  that?  A.  It  was  about  ten  o'clock 
when  they  came  and  told  everybody  to  get  off  the  streets  and  put 
their  lights  out.  But  before  that  we  heard  them  firing  down  the 
street.  And  being  an  American  citizen,  I  put  out  the  American  flag 
for  protection.  And  when  they  got  to  The  Hill  House  they  stopped 
and  one  of  them  said,  "Come  here,  lads.  Tear  down  this  damned 
American  flag  and  trample  on  it."  He  tried  to  climb  up  the  pedes- 
tal, but  they  could  not  do  it,  and  finally  had  to  give  it  up.  So  the 
next  day  I  went  down  to  the  American  Consul  there  and  told  hint 
about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  American  Consul  there?  A. 
Mr.  Adams  or  Andrews.  And  I  reported  it  to  the  commanding  offi- 
cer up  to  the  Belmont  Hutments. 

Q.  What  are  the  Belmont  Hutments?  A.  The  place  where  the 
soldiers  are.     He  said  that  the  only  satisfaction  he  could  give  me 


686 


was  that  they  were  drunken  soldiers.  And  I  said,  "That  is  very 
little  satisfaction."  And  he  said,  "Well,  you  know  they  hate  Amer- 
icans as  much  as  they  hate  the  Irish."  I  said,  "Will  you  cahle  the 
news  across?"    And  he  said  they  would  not  send  the  cable. 

Q.  Who  would  not  send  the  cable?  A.  The  English.  They 
would  censor  it.  But  he  said  I  might  send  the  news  to  my  husband 
and  he  could  publish  it  in  this  country.  And  I  did  send  the  word, 
but  he  did  not  publish  it  because  I  might  be  shot  for  sending  it  to 
him,  he  feared. 

WINDOWS  DEMOLISHED  IN  QUEENSTOWN 

The  next  night  there  was  another  raid  on,  and  I  wanted  some 
protection,  and  called  up  the  American  Consul.  And  the  Consul 
said,  "You  are  living  in  a  British  house  as  a  guest,  and  the  only 
protection  I  can  give  you  is  to  come  down  to  the  Consulate  office." 

Q.  What  happened  that  night?  A.  They  went  down  to  the 
business  part  of  town  and  smashed  up  the  Rob  Roy  Hotel,  and 
wrecked  everything  they  could  find. 

Q.  What  is  the  Rob  Roy  Hotel?  A.  It  is  a  very  large  hotel 
there.  Oh,  I  didn't  tell  you  that  when  they  tried  to  tear  down  the 
American  flag  and  could  not  get  it  because  it  was  up  too  high,  they 
smashed  in  the  two  big  plate-glass  windows  of  my  father's  house. 
Then  they  went  up  to  Bishop  Street — 

Q.  Were  windows  smashed  all  through  Queenstown  that  night? 
A.    Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  these  bodies  of  men  were  Black-and- 
Tans?  A.  There  were  a  couple  of  Black-and-Tans  and  a  couple 
of  R.  I.  C.  with  them,  and  also  a  couple  of  officers,  and  the  rest  were 
soldiers.  I  should  say  that  there  was  an  officer  with  each  batch  of 
twenty  or  thirty,  with  each  batch  that  came. 

RAIDERS  COMMANDED  BY  BRITISH  OFFICERS 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  they  officers  of  the  army  or  of  the 
Black-and-Tans?  A.  Oh,  officers  of  the  army,  because  nobody 
wants  to  command  the  Black-and-Tans.  The  D.  I., — District  Inspec- 
tor of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary, — does  not  want  to  recognize 
them,  and  the  military  officers  do  not  want  to  admit  that  they  belong 
to  them. 

Q.  And  you  saw  British  officers  in  command  of  these  raiding 
parties?     A.    Yes,  British  officers  with  their  caps  off. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  could  tell  them  by  their  uniforms?  A.  Oh, 
yes,  yes. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Will  you  tell  us  just  what  they  did?  Or 
what  did  they  try  to  do,  that  night  at  your  father's  house?    A.    Well, 


687 

they  came  along  in  front  of  the  house,  and  one  of  them  saw  the 
American  flag  I  had  hung  out,  and  he  said,  "Come  on,  boys.  Tear 
down  that  damn  American  flag."'  And  then  they  tried  to  climb  up 
this  side-post,  this  wooden  pedestal,  but  they  could  not  get  up  there. 
Q.  How  high  was  it?  A.  About  as  high  as  those  lights  there 
I  indicating  bracket  lights  in  room  I. 

ADMIRALTY   MARINES   DISPERSE  RAIDERS 

Q.  And  then  what  did  they  do?  A.  They  went  up  to  Bishop 
Street  to  get  into  some  houses  there.  When  the  doors  would  not 
open,  they  fired  stones  through  the  windows  onto  the  beds. 

Q.  What  happened  then?  A.  The  Admiralty  chased  them  of! 
then, — the  Admiralty  Marines. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  The  British  Admiralty  Marines? 
A.    Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Norris;  Then  this  raid  did  not  have  the  sanction  ot 
the  Admiralty?  A.  Well,  the  navy  is  far  superior  to  the  army. 
But  still  those  men  kept  up  their  yelling  and  making  a  disturbance. 
You  see,  they  had  to  go  past  our  house  to  get  back. 

HOW  THE  IRISH  ARMY  SECURES  ARMS 

Q.  What  were  the  incidents  that  led  up  to  these  raids?  A.  The 
Volunteers  had  made  a  raid  on  a  place  called  The  Quarry,  a  few 
minutes'  walk  from  my  home. 

Q.  How  did  that  happen?  A.  There  were  about  twenty  or 
thirty  guns  stacked  up  in  the  court, — guns  left  from  the  great  war. 
There  were  some  Volunteers  attacked  it  to  get  them, — some  of  them 
were  armed  and  some  were  not.  And  the  soldier  guarding  them  did 
not  want  to  give  them  up;  so  the  Volunteers  fired  at  him  and 
wounded  him  in  the  leg,  but  not  seriously. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  When  did  that  occur?  A.  On  the  25th, 
Friday  night, — because  it  was  pay  night  and  they  were  all  drunk. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  raid  on  your  father's  house  occurred 
on  the  27th?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  And  when  you  speak  of  the  Volunteers  you  mean  the  Irish 
Republican  Army?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Who  was  in  charge  of  these  soldiers  who  had 
their  arms  taken  away  from  them?  A.  There  was  nobody  respon- 
sible for  them  at  the  time. 

Q.  Where  was  the  officer  who  was  supposed  to  be  in  charge  of 
them?  A.  They  were  playing  tennis  at  the  time.  And  after  this 
happened  they  ran  to  him  and  told  him.  And  he  ran  to  the  head 
of  Bishop  Street  and  fired  into  the  houses.  I  saw  the  marks  myself. 
This  officer  was  going  around  like  a  madman  waving  his  revolver 
and  firing, — going  around  on  crutches,  for  he  was  partly  paralyzed. 


688 

Q.     Do  you  know  his  name?     A.    No,  I  do  not. 

Q.     Did  he  hit  any  women  or  children?     A.     No,  he  did  not. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  you  see  the  raid  hy  the  Volunteers? 
A.     No,  I  did  not  see  them,  but  I  know  they  were  after  those  guns. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  I  suppose  that  is  the  way  the  members  of  the 
Volunteer  army  get  their  guns?     A.     Yes,  it  is. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  way  they  have  of  arming  themselves, — 
capturing  guns  from  the  British?  A.  Yes,  capturing  guns  from  the 
British,  and  then  fighting  them  with  them. 

BROTHERS  ARRESTED,  HANDCUFFED,  AND  SHOT 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  About  this  time  did  you  take  a  motor  trip? 
A.     Yes,  that  was  a  few  days  later. 

Q.     About  what  time  was  that?     A.     About  the  29th. 

Q.  The  29th  of  August?  A.  Yes.  About  two  days  later  I  was 
motoring  through  Midleton,  which  is  about  five  miles  from  Queens- 
town,  and  I  saw  them  arresting  two  young  men  by  the  name  of 
Buckley,  brothers;  and  they  were  both  in  the  lorry  and  handcuffed 
as  well;  and  they  drove  them  a  little  way  outside  of  Midleton — 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  was  arresting  them?  A.  The  Cam- 
eron Highlanders,  a  Scottish  regiment. 

Q.     Were  there  Scotch  regiments  there?     A.     Yes,  in  Midleton. 

Q.  And  you  saw  them  arrest  these  men?  A.  Yes.  And  they 
drove  them  a  short  way  outside  the  town,  and  strapped  them  together 
and  shot  them  both.     One  died  and  the  other  lived. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  information?  A.  I  got  it  from  two 
other  Volunteers. 

Q.     Did  you  know  these  Buckley  boys?     A.     No. 

Q.     But  you  saw  them  arresting  them?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  explanation  did  they  give?  A.  The  officer  in  charge 
of  them  said  that  they  were  trying  to  escape  out  of  the  lorry.  But 
they  were  handcuffed  together  and  surrounded  by  thirty  soldiers  at 
the  time,  and  they  could  not  possibly  escape. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  get  the  source  of  that  information.1  A.  Do 
I  have  to  tell  the  names  of  the  parties  who  told  me?  I  don't  want 
to  blacken  them. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  this  from  his  people?  A.  The  boy  who  was 
not  yet  dead  told  about  it,  and  I  got  it  from  the  friend  to  whom  he 
told  it. 

Q.     They  were  tied  together  and  shot?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Did  you  say  these  two  boys  were 
handcuffed  together  and  shot?  A.  Yes.  I  saw  them  put  into  the 
lorry  handcuffed. 


See  affidavit  of  surviving  brother,  Bartholomew  Buckley,  and  Index. 


689 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Were  they  handcuffed  together  then?     A.    No. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  And  their  hands  were  handcuffed  to- 
gether this  way    ( indicating  I  ?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  where  did  they  take  them  then'.''  A.  They  look  them 
away,  as  usual,  to  put  them  in  prison  if  they  do  not  shoot  them 
meanwhile. 

Q.  You  have  no  idea  whether  it  was  a  day  or  lv\o  days  alter  this 
when  they  were  shot?     A.     iMo,  no,  it  was  the  same  afternoon. 

Q.  How  far  from  there  were  their  bodies  found?  A.  Oh,  they 
wrere  taken  over  to  the  barracks  by  the  soldiers. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  And  was  there  an  official  reason  given  lor 
this?  A.  Yes,  that  thev  were  trying  to  escape  out  of  the  lorry. 
There  is  always  some  reason  given  for  it. 

MISDEEDS   NOT   PUNISHED   BUT   CONDONED 

Q.  Was  there  an  official  inquiry  about  it?  A.  I  don't  know. 
You  do  not  hear  what  is  happening  in  the  police  barracks  there. 
They  are  all  the  time  fighting  and  scrapping  with  each  other  there, 
and  you  hear  very  little  about  what  happens  there. 

Q.  But  during  the  time  you  were  in  Queenstown,  for  some  six 
months,  did  you  hear  of  any  punishment  of  any  private  soldier  or 
police  officer  or  Black-and-Tan  in  any  way?  A.  No,  none.  The 
only  thing  is  that  Lloyd  George  says  that  it  is  hard  to  blame  them; 
that  the  men  are  provoked  a  lot  and  lose  their  heads. 

Q.  But  no  satisfaction  was  given  to  the  people  of  Queenstown 
for  the  losses  they  suffered  from  these  raids?  A.  No,  none  what- 
ever. 

FOUR  RAIDS  ON  FATHER'S  HOME 

Q.  How  many  raids  on  your  father's  house  were  made  while  you 
were  there?     A.     There  were  four  raids  while  I  was  there. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  exact  dates?  A.  No,  I  cannot  give  the 
exact  dates,  but  I  know  about  when  they  occurred. 

Q.  When  was  the  first  one?  A.  The  first  one  was  when  I  was 
home  about  three  weeks.     It  would  be  about  the  first  week  in  June. 

Q.  Will  you  name  the  particular  incidents  on  that  occasion? 
A.  Well,  my  two  brothers  happened  to  be  in  that  afternoon,  and 
they  searched  both  of  them,  and  searched  my  father;  and  then  the 
soldiers  went  upstairs  to  search  the  rooms.  But  they  did  not  arrest 
anybody  that  time;  and  one  of  the  soldiers  said  to  my  brother. 
''We  do  not  like  the  job  we  have  to  do  here.  We  didn't  join  the 
army  to  do  like  this."  And  my  brother  said,  "If  you  don't  like  your 
job,  why  don't  you  throw  your  coat  off?" 

Q.  When  did  that  raid  occur, — what  time?  A.  Three  or  four 
in  the  afternoon. 


690     • 

Q.  When  was  the  next  raid?  A.  The  next  raid  was  about  one 
o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q.  About  what  month?  A.  June  or  July,  I  could  not  say 
exactly. 

Q.  About  how  long  after  the  first  raid?  A.  Two  weeks;  two 
or  three  weeks. 

Q.  What  were  the  general  incidents  of  that  raid?  A.  Well,  that 
raid  they  came  up  to  the  house — 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  did  they  get  in  the  house?  A.  They 
knocked  at  the  door,  and  my  father  put  his  head  out — of  course, 
there  are  lorries  rattling  by  and  firing  going  on  all  night,  and  you 
cannot  sleep  very  well.  My  father  put  his  head  out  and  said,  "Who 
is  there?"  And  they  said,  "Police  and  soldiers.  Open  the  door!" 
And  he  said,  "All  right."  They  hardly  gave  him  time  to  dress,  and 
he  went  downstairs  and  let  them  in.  And  they  said,  "Where  are 
your  boys?"  And  he  said,  "They  are  not  home."  And  then  they 
came  upstairs  and  searched  the  rooms.  On  one  occasion  they 
searched  my  bureau  drawers. 

Q.  At  this  time  did  you  get  up?  A.  Of  course  I  got  up.  We 
got  up,  with  soldiers  lining  the  stairs  and  bayonets  sticking  into 
our  noses. 

Q.  About  how  many  of  them  came  in?  A.  There  were  about 
twenty  of  them  came  in,  and  some  remained  outside  the  house, — ■ 
about  thirty  of  them  altogether. 

AN  ATTEMPT  TO  MANUFACTURE  EVIDENCE 

Q.  Did  they  search  your  clothing?  A.  Yes,  they  searched  the 
drawers  and  clothes  and  everything.  And  a  Sergeant  Driscoll 
dropped  a  half-dozen  bullets  on  the  floor,  and  my  father  called  his 
attention  to  them;  and  the  sergeant  in  charge,  he  was  a  decent 
fellow, — there  are  some  decent  fellows  among  them, — he  called  his 
attention  to  it  and  said,  "Those  are  your  cartridges."  And  at  the 
time  he  was  making  over  to  my  brother's  overcoat. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  He  had  them  in  his  hand?  A.  Yes,  he  had  them 
in  his  hands.  And  as  I  learned  afterwards,  they  had  no  right  to 
have  bullets  in  their  hands,  because  their  revolvers  are  already 
loaded. 

Q.  Did  he  seem  confused?  A.  Yes,  terribly  confused.  He 
didn't  mean  to  drop  them.  He  was  going  to  put  them  into  the 
pocket  of  my  brother's  overcoat. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  they  give  you  time  to  dress?  A.  No, 
no  time  to  dress.     My  mother  always  sleeps  in  her  clothes. 

Q.  And  they  got  you  all  out  of  bed  in  your  night  clothes? 
A.     Yes,  yes.     I  sleep  with  a  coat  over  my  nightgown. 

Q.     What   excuse   did   they   give   for   searching   like   that   in    the 


691 

middle  of  the  night?  A.  They  said  they  were  searching  for  my 
brothers  and  for  ammunition. 

Q.  What  kind  of  language  did  they  use, — were  they  gentle- 
manly?    A.     Yes,  they  were  all  right  that  night. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  were  in  charge  of  them  that  night? 
A.  This  Sergeant  Driscoll  was  in  charge  of  the  police,  and  the 
Cameron  Highlanders'  officer  was  in  charge  of  the  military. 

Q.  Did  this  Cameron  officer  call  this  sergeant,  this  Sergeant 
Driscoll's  attention  to  the  bullets  that  he  dropped?     A.    Yes,  he  did. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  He  said,  "They  are  your  bullets. 
Pick  them  up."  He  did  not  like  it,  and  I  suppose  he  got  it  after- 
wards. 

Q.  How  many  raids  were  there  on  your  father's  house  after 
that?  A.  There  were  only  two.  The  next  was  on  a  holiday.  My 
mother  was  going  to  eight  o'clock  Mass,  and  she  saw  them  enter 
the  house  when  she  was  coming  back. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  any  particular  incidents  connected 
with  that  raid?  A.  Yes,  they  found  a  Sinn  Fein  flag  in  my  bureau 
drawer,  and  they  said,  "Whose  is  that?"  And  I  said,  "It  is  mine." 
And  he  said,  "Where  did  you  get  it?"  And  I  said,  "In  America. 
It  is  mine,  and  I  will  show  you  a  better  one."  And  I  showed  him  a 
Saint  Patrick's  Day  badge  made  in  New  York.  And  he  said,  "What 
do  you  want  that  for?"  And  I  said,  "We  are  all  Sinn  Feiners  over 
there." 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  time  was  that?  A.  About  eight 
o'clock  in  the  morning.  My  mother  was  just  coming  back  from 
Mass. 

PERSONAL  INDIGNITIES 

Q.  Did  they  empty  out  the  bureau  drawers?  A.  Yes,  of  course 
they  did.  And  they  never  take  the  trouble  to  put  them  back.  The 
last  time  they  asked  my  mother  for  my  brothers'  photographs,  and 
she  gave  them  photographs  of  them  when  they  were  about  twelve 
years  old.  And  he  said,  "They  are  a  bit  older  than  that  now."  And 
he  cut  out  the  pictures  and  threw  them  on  the  floor. 

Q.  Did  any  personal  indignities  happen  to  you?  A.  Yes.  One 
day  my  sister  and  I  were  out  bathing  at  Cuskinny — 

Q.  It  is  near  Queenstown?  A.  Yes,  it  is  about  a  mile  out.  It 
is  the  regular  bathing  beach.  We  were  out  bathing  there  and  we 
saw  an  officer  and  a  soldier.  And  they  came  on  down;  and  as  soon 
as  we  saw  them  we  got  right  out  of  the  water  and  sat  on  the  beach, 
and  got  some  of  our  clothes  on.  And  they  went  down  where  we 
were,  and  they  stripped  stark  naked  and  went  in  bathing  right  in 
front  of  us.  And  then  they  whistled  at  us,  and  said,  "Come  on, 
girls."     And  we  turned  our  backs  to  them.     And  then  they  got  out 


692 

and  came  up  towards  us.  And  we  set  two  big  dogs  on  them  that 
were  with  us. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  were  these  men?  You  say  one  of  them 
was  an  officer?     A.     Yes,  an  officer  of  the  Cameron  Highlanders. 

Q.     How  did  you  know?     A.     By  the  uniform  that  he  wore. 

PEOPLE  SEEK  REFUGE  IN  CEMETERY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Where  do  the  women  and  children  go  during 
these  raids?  A.  They  go  to  the  Christian  Brothers'  College,  and 
the  Sisters  of  Mercy,  and  take  their  blankets  with  them.  And  then 
a  lot  of  them  go  to  the  graveyard.  One  old  man  named  Moore  goes 
and  sleeps  there  on  the  grave  of  his  wife  night  after  night.  A  lot 
of  them  do  that. 

Q.  A  lot  of  them  sleep  in  the  graveyard?  A.  Yes,  a  lot  of 
them  sleep  in  the  graveyard,  even  during  pouring  rain.  I  used  to 
get  up  and  go  to  early  Mass,  and  I  have  seen  them  coming  out  of 
there  in  the  morning. 

TROOPS  TERRORIZE  PEOPLE  IN  ACT  OF  PRAYER 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  occasions  on  which  there  were  threats 
against  the  people  when  they  were  gathered  together?  A.  Oh,  yes. 
They  were  reciting  the  rosary  in  Scott  Square. 

Q.  About  how  many,  a  hundred?  A.  Oh,  more  than  a  hundred. 
At  least  two  hundred  people.     We  were  reciting  the  rosary  in  Irish. 

Q.  This  was  in  Scott's  Square?  A.  Yes,  in  Scott's  Square,  right 
under  the  Market  Arch. 

Q.  What  was  the  occasion  for  reciting  the  rosary?  A.  They 
were  reciting  the  rosary  for  the  hunger  strikers  in  Cork  jail.  And 
then  lorries  of  soldiers  came  along  with  those  revolving  guns. 

Q.  Machine  guns?  A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  were  machine 
guns,  but  they  revolved  like  this  (indicating  swivel  motion).  They 
did  not  fire  them,  but  they  swung  them  around  on  the  people. 

Q.  But  by  revolving  guns  you  mean  mounted  guns?  A.  Yes, 
they  are  mounted  on  the  lorries,  and  revolve  around  in  some  way. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Like  machine  guns, — bigger  than 
rifles?  A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  were  bigger  or  not,  but  they 
stuck  out  of  the  lorries  in  every  way. 

Q.  And  they  pointed  them  at  the  crowd?  A.  Yes,  at  the  crowd. 
And  then  they  ran  home  in  every  direction. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  women  there?  A.  Yes,  there  were. 
And  there  were  men  in  the  crowd  too. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  Were  these  soldiers  in  the  lorries?     A.   Yes. 

Q.  Did  they  say  anything?  A.  No,  because  they  were  down  at 
the  general  postoffice  then. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  About  how  far  away  is  that?     A.     About  a  hun- 


693 

died  yards,  I  should  say, — a  little  further  away  than  (he  length  of 
this  room. 

Q.  And  they  were  at  the  general  postoffice?  A.  Yes,  opposite 
Scott's  Square. 

PETTY  TYRANNY  IMPOSED  BY  BAYONET 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  night  that  Queenstown  was  illuminated  in 
honor  of  the  hunger  strikers?  A.  Yes.  There  was  a  regiment  of 
these  came  along,  and  an  old  man  was  standing  smoking  in  front 
of  his  door,  and  a  Cameron  Highlander  ran  out  of  the  crowd  and 
said,  "Put  up  your  hands,  you  old  so-and-so,  or  I  will  run  this 
through  you." 

Q.  He  had  a  fixed  bayonet?  A.  Yes,  a  fixed  bayonet,  and  he 
pointed  it  right  at  him.  I  was  going  this  way,  and  it  happened  like 
this  (indicating  right  angle  of  vision),  so  that  I  could  see  it  all. 
My  sister  said,  "Do  not  look." 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  happened  then?  A.  Well,  of  course 
the  man  put  his  hands  up. 

Q.     What  did  he  do?     A.     He  searched  him. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything?  A.  No,  of  course  not.  He  only 
wanted  to  scare  him. 

Q.     And  then  he  let  him  go?     A.     Yes,  he  did. 

SELECT  COLLEGE  SEARCHED  FOR  ARMS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  the  searching  of  Rockwell  College? 
A.     Yes,  I  did. 

Q.     Where  is  Rockwell  College?     A.     It  is  in  Clare. 

Q.  What  did  they  do  there?  A.  They  were  looking  for  rifles; 
and  they  tore  down  the  statues. 

Q.     What  is  Rockwell  College?     A.     It  is  a  very  swell  college. 

Q.     A  large  number  of  students?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  you  saw  them  tearing  down  the  statues?  A.  I  saw 
them  standing  around  where  the  statues  were. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  go  in  there?  A.  No.  But  they  held  us  up 
in  the  automobile.  That  is  why  I  saw  so  much.  They  would  not  let 
us  go  on  while  this  raid  was  going  on. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  you  did  not  see  them  tearing  down  the 
statues?  A.  I  saw  them  standing  around  the  statues,  and  could  not 
see  what  they  were  doing.  But  we  learned  afterwards  what  they 
were  doing  there. 

Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  think  all  of  this  is  material? 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  Mr.  Howe,  I  think  raids  on  educational  insti- 
tutions have  not  been  developed  up  to  this  time,  and  it  is  a  very 
important  point. 


694 

Chairman  Howe:  I  have  no  objection  to  that,  but  we  have  gone 
through  this  detail  so  many,  many  times  that  I  do  not  think  it  is 
necessary  now. 

DISCIPLINE  IN  IRISH  VOLUNTEER  ARMY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  of  any  occasion  when  Volunteers 
have  been  disciplined?  A.  Yes,  on  one  occasion  one  of  them  took 
it  into  his  own  hands  to  shoot  at  the  D.  I. — the  District  Inspector — 
without  getting  permission  to  do  it.  Those  men  are  usually  marked 
out  before  they  are  shot.  They  are  tried  in  courts  beforehand.  And 
this  fellow  shot  at  him.  Of  course  the  police  and  soldiers  never  got 
him,  but  the  Volunteers  found  out  who  did  it,  and  they  disciplined 
him. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  What  did  they  do  to  him?  A.  They 
put  him  in  an  unknown  destination. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  They  sent  him  out  of  Queenstown  some- 
where? A.  Yes,  they  did.  Well,  this  fellow  had  been  on  a  six  or 
eight-day  hunger  strike.  And  when  they  come  out  of  that,  they  are 
apt  to  do  almost  anything. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  suppose  they  are  very  weak  then? 
A.     Yes,  and  they  do  not  care  what  they  do. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  Mr.  Manly,  could  this  be  more  specific? 

Q.  Mr.  Manly  (to  witness)  :  Can  you  give  the  name  of  the  Vol- 
unteer? A.  Well,  I  do  not  want  to  do  that,  because  those  fellows 
are  blackened  enough  now. 

Q.  And  who  was  the  District  Inspector?  A.  He  is  the  same 
one  who  is  there  now. 

Q.  And  you  got  this  information  through  your  brothers?  A.  I 
would  not  say  my  brothers.     I  got  it  through  the  Volunteers. 

Q.  And  you  do  know  that  there  was  a  trial  held,  and  this  man 
was  disciplined,  and  a  specific  sentence  passed  on  him?  A.  Yes, 
yes. 

Q.  That  he  had  to  leave  the  Volunteers  and  leave  that  vicinity? 
A.    No,  he  did  not  leave  it;  they  took  him. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  was  done  to  him?  A.  He  was  taken 
to  a  U.  D. — an  unknown  destination. 

Q.  He  was  not  killed?  A.  No,  of  course  they  did  not  kill  him. 
They  merely  took  him  off. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Why  did  they  do  that?  A.  Because  they 
thought  he  was  a  dangerous  man. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  He  might  do  something  to  bring  discredit 
on  them?     A.    Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  know  of  any  more  cases  of  dis- 
cipline like  that?  A.  Indeed,  I  cannot  recall  all  those  things  now; 
but  if  I  knew  I  was  coming  here  I  could  have  written  down  some 
of  them. 


695 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  mean  not  within  your  own  knowledge? 
A.    No,  I  don't  know. 

VOLUNTEERS  PLEDGED  TO  SOBRIETY 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything;  about  the  Volunteers  being  sober? 
A.  Oh.  indeed  they  are  all  good,  sober  men.  They  are  afraid  of 
being  shot  otherwise.  Thev  are  good  men,  living  not  for  themselves 
alone,  but  for  the  nation. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  the  Volunteers  take  a  pledge  not  to 
drink?     A.     Yes,  they  do. 

Q.  Do  they  ever  drink?  A.  Some  of  them  may  take  a  bottle  of 
stout  occasionally,  but  nothing  stronger;  and  most  of  them  are  total 
abstainers. 

Q.      Do  you  know  the  wording  of  the  pledge?     A.     No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Is  there  a  special  oath  for  them  to  take? 
A.  Oh.  indeed.  Thev  are  very  particular  about  whom  they  take 
into  the  Volunteers.     There  is  an  examination  about  it. 

Q.  Is  there  a  temperance  movement  in  Ireland  now?  A.  Yes, 
there  is.  The  British  Government  wants  to  keep  the  public  houses 
open,  while  the  Volunteers  want  to  get  them  closed.  When  I  was 
over  there  ten  years  ago  there  were  British  officials  chasing  people 
everywhere  who  were  trying  to  evade  the  British  liquor  laws.  But 
now  they  do  not.  The  Volunteers  only  let  them  keep  open  from 
two  to  five  on  Sundays. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  But  the  police  would  never  interfere 
with  them  if  they  wanted  to  keep  open  longer?  A.  No,  indeed  they 
do  not.  It  is  only  the  Volunteers.  The  police  do  not  care  if  they 
keep  open  all  the  time. 

INFERIOR  CHARACTER   OF  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  As  you  observed  the  Black-and-Tans  and 
the  police  and  the  military,  who  were  the  worst?  A.  Well,  it  is 
hard  to  say.  It  is  all  very  terrible  now.  But  the  Black-and-Tans  are 
the  worst.     The  old  police  are  pretty  temperate  fellows. 

Q.  Did  they  get  along  well  together?  A.  Indeed  they  did  not. 
When  they  first  brought  them  into  the  barracks  they  had  regular 
pitched  battles  there. 

Q.  You  mean  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary?  A.  No,  the  Black- 
and-Tans? 

ALL  BUT  A  HALF-DOZEN  HOUSES  INJURED 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  many  houses  are  injured  in  Queens- 
town?  A.  Almost  every  house.  I  do  not  suppose  there  would  be 
a  half  dozen  that  were  not  smashed  up  or  injured  in  some  way. 


696 

Q.  You  mean  every  house?  A.  Yes.  As  I  walked  through  the 
streets  I  could  scarcely  find  a  house  where  the  windows  were  not 
broken.  And  it  does  no  good  to  replace  them,  because  they  would 
only  be  broken  again. 

Q.  Private  as  well  as  business  houses?  A.  Private  houses  and 
public  houses,  yes. 

Q.  Does  that  mean  the  houses  of  Unionists  as  well  as  the  others? 
A.     There  are  no  Unionists. 

ENGLISH   OFFER  REWARDS  TO   INFORMERS 

Q.  Are  there  any  informers  there?  A.  Oh,  yes,  there  are  some 
informers  there.   They  find  out  about  them  when  they  raid  the  mails. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  raids  the  mails?  A.  The  Volunteers 
as  well  as  the  other  people.  They  are  raiding  the  mails  all  the 
time.  There  was  one  fellow  called  Rushbrook.  About  thirty  sol- 
diers were  taking  the  mails  from  Cork  to  Queenstown  station,  and 
the  Volunteers  raided  them  and  took  the  mail  bags  away.  And  they 
found  one  spy  who  was  getting  thirty  pounds  for  sending  informa- 
tion. And  then  at  night  there  were  police  going  around  with  rubber 
soles  on  their  shoes  and  slipping  circulars  under  the  doors  offering 
rewards  for  giving  information.  They  put  them  under  the  doors 
at  night  while  the  people  are  in  bed.  They  can  give  their  own 
private  code,  and  if  the  information  proves  satisfactory,  then  they 
are  paid  for  it. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Have  you  one  of  those  circulars?  A.  I 
haven't  one  with  me.     I  am  sorry,  but  I  think  I  can  send  it  to  you. 

A  SINN  FEIN  COURT  IN  SESSION 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a  Sinn  Fein  court  in  session?  Have  you 
ever  attended  one?  A.  Yes,  yes.  Some  people  found  in  the  river 
near  the  passage  two  stolen  trunks  which  belonged  to  emigrants, 
and  they  went  to  the  Volunteers  to  find  out  who  stole  them. 

Q.     Who  presided, — a  judge  presided?     A.     Yes,  there  was. 

Q.     Who  was  he?     A.     He  was  a  sergeant  in  the  Volunteers. 

Q.  How  was  he  selected?  A.  He  was  sitting  down  there,  and 
was  just  asked  to  take  charge,  as  far  as  I  could  see. 

Q.     Was  there  a  jury?     A.     Yes,  there  was. 

Q.  How  were  they  selected?  A.  They  got  them  from  those 
there. 

Q.     Were  there  any  lawyers?     A.     No,  I  don't  think  so. 

Senator  Norris:  They  probably  got  justice  then. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  they  find  the  trunks?  A.  Yes,  they 
did.     They  found  them  down  near  White  Point. 

Q.     And  did  they  find  the  people  who  stole  them?    A.    They  did. 


697 

Q.  And  what  sentence  did  they  get?  A.  They  were  sent  to  an 
unknown  destination. 

Q.  Is  that  the  general  penalty?  A.  Well,  it  might  he  worse  if 
the  offense  is  worse.' 

Q.  But  the  usual  punishment  is  social  ostracism?  A.  Yes,  they 
are  not  allowed  to  remain  in  the  community.     They  are  taken  away. 

Q.  The  people  do  not  go  into  the  British  court?  A.  No,  they 
do  not.  If  there  is  any  money  due  people  over  there,  they  give  the 
case  in  to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts,  and  they  collect  the  money  for  them. 

Q.  And  the  people  know  who  the  officers  of  the  Sinn  Fein  courts 
are?     A.     Yes.  they  do. 

Q.  Do  the  British  authorities  know  who  they  are?  A.  Indeed 
they  do.     They  are  after  them  all  the  time. 

Q.  And  the  people  do  obey  the  courts,  do  they?  A.  They  do 
obey  the  Volunteers.  If  they  are  told  to  shut  up  their  public  houses, 
they  do  shut  up. 

Q.  And  what  happens  if  they  do  not  obey?  A.  They  get  what 
is  coming  to  them. 

Q.  And  do  you  know  what  is  coming  to  them?  A.  I  don't 
know  everything. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  And  are  the  people  allowed  to  come  back 
at  the  end  of  their  time, — the  people  who  are  sent  away?  A.  Yes, 
they  do. 

Q.  How  long  is  the  sentence?  A.  They  do  not  know.  Nobody 
knows  that.     When  they  ought  to  come  back  they  are  brought  back. 

Chairman  Howe:  This  is  the  most  ideal  system  of  jurisprudence 
that  I  know  anything  about. 

Q.  Do  the  officials  of  the  court  get  paid?  A.  No,  not  in  the 
local  courts. 

Q.  Is  there  very  much  litigation  in  these  courts?  Do  they  sit 
almost  continually?  A.  \es,  they  do.  But  they  cannot  have  it  in 
the  same  place.  They  have  to  hold  the  court  in  different  places. 
They  met  in  a  club  house  when  I  saw  them. 

Q.  Do  the  British  authorities  raid  these  courts?  A.  They  do. 
They  do.  At  nights,  before  the  soldiers  come  along,  the  Volunteers 
go  around  and  arrest  men  who  are  not  sober. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  You  saw  them  doing  that?  A.  Yes,  I  saw 
them.  They  took  them  into  the  old  school  house, — the  old  national 
school.  I  saw  a  couple  of  fellows  being  taken  in  there,  taken  on 
the  "frogs'  march"  to  the  school. 

PEOPLE  REFUSE  TO  PAY  ENGLISH  TAXES 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Do  the  people  pay  any  taxes  in  Queens- 
town  now?  A.  Well,  they  refuse  to  pay  taxes  to  the  British  Gov- 
ernment until  their  property  is  fixed  up. 


698 

Q.  Do  they  pay  taxes  to  the  Sinn  Fein  Government?  A.  Well, 
they  pay  taxes  to  the  Sinn  Fein  courts  if  they  are  assessed  against 
them. 

Q.  But  they  have  no  rates,  no  regular  revenue?  A.  No,  I  don't 
think  so.  In  fact,  I  heard  them  say  they  would  not  pay  any  more 
rates  until  their  property  was  fixed  up  again. 

Q.  So  the  political  life  in  Queenstown  is  voluntary?  A.  Yes, 
not  only  in  Queenstown,  but  all  over  Ireland. 

DESTRUCTION   UNIVERSAL  THROUGHOUT 
IRELAND 

Q.  And  this  picture  of  Queenstown  is  general,  is  it?  A.  Yes, 
there  is  not  a  village  that  is  not  like  it  throughout  Ireland. 

Q.  Throughout  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  throughout  Ireland.  Prop- 
erty and  the  farms  are  just  going  to  the  ground.  They  are  just 
trying  to  starve  the  people.     They  will  have  a  terrible  winter. 

Chairman  Howe:  I  thank  you  very  much  indeed.  And  if  you  can 
send  any  of  the  printed  material  that  you  have,  please  send  it  to 
Mr.  Manly. 

The  Witness:  If  I  can  find  that  document,  I  will  send  it. 

Mr.  Manly:  If  you  have  any  other  printed  documents  about 
Queenstown,  please  send  them  on. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  CHARLES  CLARKE 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Your  name  is  John  Charles  Clarke?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  And  you  are  living  now  temporarily  with  Mrs.  Mohan  at  the 
same  address, — Corona,  Long  Island?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Clarke?  A.  I  was  born  in 
Ireland. 

Q.     How  old  were  you  when  you  left  Ireland?    A.   Twenty  years. 

Q.  Were  you  educated  there,  Mr.  Clarke?  A.  Yes,  in  the  Chris- 
tian Brothers'  School,  Monaghan,  County  Armagh. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  to  the  United  States?  A.  September, 
1903. 

Q.     Are  you  an  American  citizen?     A.     I  am. 

Q.     When  did  you  become  an  American  citizen?     A.     In   1909. 

Q.  What  has  been  the  general  character  of  your  employment, 
without  giving  all  the  places  that  you  have  been  employed,  in  the 
United  States?  A.  I  worked  in  the  White  Sewing  Machine  Com- 
pany as  an  assembler  for  seven  years.  I  worked  as  a  chauffeur, 
and  then  as  an  inspector  of  munitions.  I  am  now  working  as  a 
watchman  on  the  pier  of  the  Erie  Railroad  in  the  State  of  New 
Jersey. 

Q.  When  did  you  go  to  Ireland  last?  A.  I  sailed  from  New 
York  on  September  15th,  and  arrived  in  Ireland  September  26th. 

Q.     This  year?     A.     This  year. 

Q.  What  was  the  purpose  of  your  visit?  A.  I  buried  my  wife, 
and  I  have  a  boy  seven  years  old,  and  I  wanted  to  take  him  to  my 
people,  who  reside  in  Queenstown. 

Q.  You  were  living  with  your  father-in-law  in  Cork?  A.  In 
Queenstown.  Yes,  I  did.  I  lived  with  him  for  part  of  the  time  that 
I  was  there. 

Q.  And  where  else  did  you  live?  A.  I  lived  with  Mrs.  Mohan's 
mother,  who  is  my  aunt  also. 

Q.  Why  were  you  asked  to  live  with  them?  A.  After  Mrs. 
Mohan  left,  her  mother  has  heart  trouble  and  is  very  nervous,  and 
she  thought  that  because  I  was  an  American  citizen  I  would  be  some 
protection  to  her.  Of  course  I  would  leave  during  the  day,  but  I 
would  stay  up  there  with  Mrs.  Millwood — that  was  her  name — 
during  the  night. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  This  was  in  Queenstown?  A.  In  Queens- 
town, yes. 

Q.  And  you  left  there  on  what  date?  A.  I  sailed  from  there 
on  the  Cormania  on  December  12th,  and  I  arrived  here  last  Monday. 


699 


700 

DRUNKEN  OFFICERS  RUN  AMUCK 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  you  in  Cork  soon  after  you  arrived  in 
Queenstown?  A.  I  was.  I  went  to  Cork  on  the  following  Satur- 
day. I  arrived  on  Sunday,  and  went  to  Cork  on  the  following 
Saturday  afternoon. 

Q.  Whom  were  you  accompanied  by?  A.  My  father-in-law 
and  my  brother-in-law. 

Q.  Tell  what  you  saw  that  afternoon.  A.  I  was  walking  along 
Patrick  Street,  which  is  the  main  thoroughfare  of  the  city,  and  we 
were  walking  up  to  Lipton's  tea  store,  which  is  a  very  large  store 
there,  and  saw  quite  a  crowd  assembled  around  the  door.  We  were 
on  the  opposite  side  of  the  street.  There  was  a  young  man  standing 
there,  and  I  asked  him  what  seemed  to  be  the  trouble.  He  said  there 
were  a  couple  of  Black-and-Tans  who  went  into  Lipton's,  and  they 
seemed  to  be  intoxicated.  My  father-in-law's  wife  is  in  the  habit 
of  going  into  Lipton's  to  do  some  shopping,  and  he  said,  "I  hope  the 
Missus  is  not  there."  And  I  said,  "I  will  go  over  and  see  if  she  is 
in  there."  And  I  got  about  half-way  across  the  street  when  I  saw 
the  crowd  begin  to  scatter.  I  saw  these  two  men  in  the  R.  I.  C. 
uniform  come  to  the  door  and  fire  a  shot;  and  I  saw  a  boy  up  the 
street  a  little  way  fall.   He  was  only  a  lad,  about  seventeen  years  old. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  these  Black-and-Tans  or  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary?  A.  I  could  not  really  say,  because  I  was  not  ac- 
quainted with  the  uniforms.  So  I  ran  back  to  the  store,  which  was 
a  jewelry  store,  where  I  had  left  the  folks.  There  were  a  number 
of  women  in  there,  and  one  of  them  fainted.  And  I  heard  another 
shot  ring  out,  and  a  pane  of  glass  go  right  next  to  where  we  were. 
Then  I  saw  four  police  officers  in  R.  I.  C.  uniform  go  through  the 
crowd  and  escort  the  other  two  out  of  there.  Those  two  were  hor- 
ribly drunk,  going  through  the  streets  swearing  and  yelling.  What 
they  said  I  could  not  hear. 

Q.  Who  did  the  shooting?  A.  Those  two  police  officers  who 
were  intoxicated. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  They  were  put  under  arrest,  were  they?  A. 
That  I  could  not  say,  but  they  were  escorted  out  of  there  by  those 
four  other  police  officers.  It  might  have  been  for  protection  they 
took  them  out  of  there  as  well  as  anything  else. 

Q.     But  they  were  escorted  away?     A.     Escorted  away,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  court-martial  or  any  inquiry  about  this? 
A.  No,  I  never  heard  of  any.  There  was  just  a  small  announcement 
in  the  paper  telling  about  it  the  following  day. 

Q.  If  there  had  been  a  notice  of  a  military  inquiry  you  would 
have  heard  about  it?  A.  Yes,  without  doubt;  because  I  followed 
up  the  papers  very  closely  while  I  was  there.  I  had  nothing  else 
to  do. 


701 

Q.  And  you  say  that  these  two  men  who  did  the  shooting  were 
intoxicated?     A.    Oh.  positively;  hardly  able  to  walk. 

Q.     Hardly  able  to  walk?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  This  seventeen-year-old  boy,  did  he  die? 
A.  I  could  not  say.  He  was  taken  away  by  his  partner,  and  we 
saw  the  ambulance  come,  and  it  might  have  been  for  him.  We  could 
not  see,  because  the  crowd  scattered  in  all  directions. 

BISHOPS'  GRAVES  VIOLATED  IN  RAID  FOR  ARMS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  you  in  Queenslown  when  the  Cathedral  was 
raided?     A.     I  was. 

Q.     Did  you  see  it  raided?     A.     I  did. 

Q.     What  date  was  it?     A.     I  could  not  really  say. 

Q.  Approximately  what  was  the  date?  A.  It  would  be  around 
the  20th  or  21st  of  November. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Was  it  on  Sunday?  A.  No,  it  was  on  a 
week-day. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  At  what  time  of  the  day?  A.  Around  nine 
o'clock  A.  M. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  in  that  vicinity?  A.  Well,  it  is 
only  just  three  blocks  from  Mrs.  Millwood's  house. 

Q.  Who  is  Mrs.  Millwood?  A.  That  is  the  lady  I  was  stopping 
with  during  the  night,  this  Mrs.  Mohan's  mother.  I  was  leaving 
there  and  going  down  to  my  people,  and  I  had  to  pass  the  Cathedral. 
And  a  block  from  there  I  was  stopped  by  a  constable  whom  I  knew, 
— his  name  was  Constable  Darcy. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  him?  A.  Well,  I  had  to 
report  to  the  police  when  I  got  there,  and  I  met  him,  and  I  had 
quite  a  conversation  with  him  when  he  found  out  that  I  was  a  police 
officer  here. 

Q.  What  was  your  conversation  with  him?  A.  He  said  I  could 
not  go  further  down  the  street.  And  I  asked  why.  And  he  said, 
"We  are  going  to  have  a  raid  on  the  Cathedral."  And  I  said, 
"Who?"     And  he  said,  "The  District  Inspector." 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  this  District  Inspector?  A.  Yes, 
I  do.  It  was  District  Inspector  Davies.  And  I  said,  "What  is  the 
idea?"  And  he  said,  "I  don't  know.  I  am  a  Catholic,  and  hate  to 
see  it;  but  it's  orders.  It  looks  like  this  D.  I.  is  going  to  run  amuck." 
Well,  I  stayed  there  for  a  few  minutes.  Of  course,  I  did  not  want 
to  be  seen  talking  to  that  police  on  the  streets,  because  people  would 
think  you  were  giving  them  information.  So  I  did  want  to  get  away 
as  soon  as  possible.  I  saw  the  sexton  of  the  church  in  company 
with  three  men  in  plain  clothes,  one  of  whom  I  found  out  to  be  the 
district  inspector,  coming  down  to  open  the  gate  that  leads  under 
the  cathedral  where  the  bishops'  graves  are,     They  went  into  this 


702 

passageway;  and  that  is  all  I  could  see  about  it  at  this  time.  After- 
wards I  was  told  by  a  particular  friend  of  mine  who  knew  what 
happened  in  there  that  they  took  the  tombstones  off  the  bishops' 
graves  and  also  looked  into  the  coffins.  And  I  said  to  my  friend, 
"What  the  dickens  were  they  doing  that  for?"  And  he  said  they 
were  looking  for  arms  and  ammunition.  They  believed  arms  and 
ammunition  were  stored  there. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  this  published  in  the  newspapers?  A.  No, 
it  was  not. 

Q.  Were  you  given  any  reason  for  its  not  being  published?  A. 
Yes,  I  was.  I  have  a  very  particular  friend  there,  a  priest,  and  I 
was  talking  about  it  later  with  him,  and  I  said,  "You  had  a  terrible 
raid  here."  He  said,  "Yes,  it  was,  but  we  had  to  keep  that  quiet." 
I  said,  "Why?"  And  he  said,  "Because  the  people  here  would  not 
stand  for  it  if  they  knew  about  it.  To  think  of  their  coming  here 
and  opening  up  the  bishops'  graves  and  looking  into  the  coffins  for 
ammunition."  He  said,  "Lots  of  people  asked  us  about  it,  and  we 
said  they  just  gave  us  a  general  inspection  of  the  Cathedral  and 
looked  around  the  place.  But  we  did  not  tell  them  they  took  the 
tombstones  off  and  looked  in  the  bishops'  coffins."  So  that  was  the 
reason  for  keeping  it  quiet. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Do  you  know  whether  they  found  anything? 
A.     No,  absolutely  nothing. 

IRISH  LEADERS  RESTRAIN  PEOPLE  FROM 
RETALIATION 

Q.  Major  Newman:  In  other  words,  the  authorities  of  the  church 
feared  that  if  the  Irish  people  knew  that,  it  would  have  angered 
them  to  the  point  where  they  would  have  attacked  the  British  forces 
in  reprisals?     A.     That  is  so.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  did  you  learn  over  there  as  to  the  policy 
of  the  Republican  forces  to  prevent  a  general  rising?  A.  Well, 
what  you  call  the  Republican  Army  over  there,  you  get  no  informa- 
tion out  of  it.  They  dare  not  give  out  their  opinions  except  they 
go  and  speak  to  their  superior  officer. 

Q.  The  point  I  was  getting  at  was,  is  the  general  influence  of  the 
clergy  and  the  city  officials  and  other  leaders  of  the  people  there 
used  to  quiet  the  people  and  prevent  them  from  taking  aggressive 
action  because  of  these  atrocities?  A.  No,  sir;  they  do  not  have 
to  do  that,  sir.  I  don't  think  the  Republican  Army  would  start  any- 
thing like  that  except  they  counselled  with  their  leaders  and  the 
priests. 

Q.  The  point  I  was  after,  in  this  particular  case  they  took  pre- 
cautions that  this  should  not  become  known  to  the  people  generally 
because  they  feared  a  general  uprising.     Do  you  know  whether  that 


703 

is  a  matter  of  general  policy,  of  keeping  facts  which  might  inflame 
the  people  and  bring  about  a  general  uprising  in  which  there  would 
be  an  open  conflict  between  the  troops  and  the  people?  A.  Yes,  no 
doubt  there  would  be  an  open  conflict,  I  should  say,  if  the  people 
knew  that  was  done  in  the  Cathedral. 

Q.  And  as  it  is,  the  authorities  are  trying  to  prevent  an  open 
conflict?     A.     Yes,  the  authorities  are  preventing  an  open  conflict. 

REPEATED  RAIDS  ON  MILLWOOD  HOME 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  any  of  the  raids  during  the  time  you 
were  in  Ireland?     A.     I  was. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  in  all  when  you  were  present?  A.  I 
was  in  four  of  them.  There  was  one  of  the  raids,  though,  that  Mrs. 
Mohan  just  related  about.  That  was  on  the  morning,  I  think,  of  the 
first  of  November,  a  Sunday  morning.  I  was  in  three  other  raids 
after  she  left  there  that  took  place  in  her  father's  house. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  describe  them  briefly.  Tell  what  hap- 
pened. A.  The  first  raid  there  happened  to  be  about  1:30  A.  M. 
We  went  to  bed  about  one  o'clock.  I  was  just  falling  into  a  little 
doze,  and  I  heard  them  knock  at  the  hall  door.  I  was  sleeping  one 
flight  up,  and  the  rest  of  the  family  was  sleeping  two  flights  up.  I 
heard  the  knock,  and  as  I  was  opening  the  window  to  hear  whom 
it  might  be,  I  heard  Mr.  Millwood  opening  the  window  above  and 
asking,  '"Who  is  there?"  And  they  said,  "Police.  Open  up!"  And 
I  got  partly  dressed  then,  and  Mr.  Millwood  came  along,  and  two 
young  men  looking  to  be  about  twenty-five  years  old  in  civilian 
clothes,  and  after  them  five  or  six  officers  in  police  uniform.  The 
district  inspector  did  not  speak  to  me,  but  this  Sergeant  Driscoll 
knew  me. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Who  was  this  district  inspector?  A.  Dis- 
trict Inspector  Davies,  a  little  fellow  about  twenty-five  years  of  age. 
Sergeant  Driscoll  and  one  of  the  other  fellows  called  to  me,  and  he 
said,  "What  are  you  doing  here?"  And  I  said,  "My  aunt,  Mrs. 
Millwood,  is  not  feeling  very  well,  and  I  am  staying  here."  And 
Sergeant  Driscoll  called  the  D.  I.  away  and  talked  to  him.  And 
then  he  said,  "Well,  seeing  that  you  are  a  police  officer,  I  guess  you 
can  take  care  of  the  place."  And  he  said,  "Good  night,"  and  went 
out. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  they  destroy  any  property  there?  A. 
No,  absolutely  nothing.     They  did  not  touch  a  thing. 

Q.     This  was  a  police  raid?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  And  the  next  was  a  military  raid?  A.  Yes,  by 
the  Cameron  Highlanders. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Just  a  moment.  That  first  raid  that  you 
described,  did  they  give  any  reason  for  coming  to  the  house?      A. 


704 

Yes,  Mrs.  Millwood  was  kind  of  upset,  and  she  said,  "What  do  you 
want  here?"  And  the  D.  I.  said,  "We  want  your  boys."  And  she 
explained  that  they  were  very  good  boys,  and  only  twenty  and 
twenty-one  years  old,  and  she  said,  "Why  do  you  want  them?"  And 
he  said,  "Well,  we  want  them."  And  that  was  all  we  learned  of  the 
purpose  of  the  raid. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Go  on  with  the  second  raid.  A.  There  was 
a  knock  at  the  door,  and  the  answer  was  given  by  Mr.  Millwood's 
daughter.  And  she  said,  "What  do  you  want?"  And  they  said, 
"Soldiers.  Open!"  And  I  got  out  to  the  dining  room  and  was 
confronted  by  a  Cameron  Highlander  officer,  and  he  told  me  to 
throw  up  my  hands. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  This  was  a  Cameron  officer?  A.  Yes,  a 
Cameron  officer. 

Q.  What  grade,  do  you  know?  A.  No,  I  do  not  know,  because 
they  all  dress  alike.  I  told  him  I  was  an  American  citizen,  and 
showed  him  my  passport. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  showed  him  your  passport?  A.  Yes,  I 
did,  and  showed  him  I  was  a  police  officer  commissioned  by  the  State 
of  New  Jersey.  And  I  said,  "What  do  you  want?"  And  he  said, 
"I  am  looking  for  ammunition."  And  he  looked  in  all  the  drawers, 
and  lifted  up  the  table  cloth.  And  then  they  went  up  to  the  next 
story,  and  tore  everything  out  of  the  drawers,  and  all  the  bed  clothes 
off  the  beds,  and  left  everything  lying  around  the  floor.  And  Mrs. 
Millwood  said,  "What  are  you  looking  for?"  There  were  two  offi- 
cers upstairs  while  one  was  searching  me.  And  they  said,  "We  are 
looking  for  your  boys.  Where  are  they?"  And  she  said,  "They 
are  not  at  home.  What  are  you  hunting  them  for?  They  are  good 
boys,  and  it  is  a  shame  for  them  to  be  going  around  the  country 
wild."  And  the  officer  said,  "I  am  not  a  bit  satisfied."  And  when 
they  left  I  went  upstairs.  I  heard  him  say,  "I  am  not  a  bit  satis- 
fied." His  meaning  for  that  I  could  not  see,  but  I  suppose  it  was 
because  he  could  not  find  anything  at  the  place,  either  in  the  way 
of  ammunition  or  the  boys.  They  did  not  break  anything  or  damage 
anything  to  any  extent  except  to  tear  out  books  and  things  from  the 
writing  desks  and  closets, — tore  them  out  and  left  them  on  the  floor; 
and  also  the  bed  clothes  and  linen.  I  saw  that  myself  after  the 
raid  was  finished. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  They  did  not  find  anything  in  the  way  of 
ammunition?     A.     Oh,  no,  absolutely  nothing. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Tell  about  the  next  one,  then.  A.  The  next 
one  was  about  three  o'clock  in  the  afternoon.  It  was  nothing.  They 
just  came  into  the  store  and  looked  around  and  wanted  to  know 
if  the  Millwood  boys  were  around.  They  did  not  do  much  tearing 
or  disturbing  of  the  house.    They  just  wanted  the  boys. 

Q.     Who  did  that?     A.     The  police.     The  next  raid  happened 


705 

about  a  week  later,  on  Saturday  night  at  ten  o'clock.  I  was  sitting 
upstairs  in  the  dining  room,  which  is  just  above  the  store.  We  could 
tell  by  the  heavy  tramping  downstairs  that  there  were  soldiers  there, 
and  the  girl  said,  "Charlie,  there  are  the  Camerons."  I  heard  glass 
smashing,  and  went  to  the  stairs,  and  got  only  half  way  down  the 
stairs  when  I  was  stopped  by  a  Cameron  private  who  said,  "Put  them 
up!"  And  I  put  them  up  and  said,  '"I  would  like  to  get  into  the 
store."  And  he  said,  "I  can't  let  you."  And  I  met  an  officer,  and 
he  said,  "Keep  them  up."  So  I  kept  them  up,  and  the  officer  lined 
me  up  alongside  of  another  man  and  started  to  search  me. 

Q.     Who  was  the  other  man?     A.     A  customer. 

Q.  Was  the  store  open?  A.  Yes,  it  was.  And  I  said,  "I  am  an 
American  citizen."  And  he  said  that  made  no  difference.  I  was 
not  afraid,  because  I  knew  he  couldn't  do  anything  to  me.  He 
made  a  very  thorough  search  of  me.  He  even  took  out  my  match 
box  and  looked  into  it.  And  I  said,  "What  is  the  matter,  officer? 
Do  you  want  me  to  strike  a  match  for  you?"  And  he  said,  "No." 
And  I  said,  "Can  I  put  them  down?"  And  he  said,  "No,  keep  them 
up."  There  was  a  little  Highlander  about  fifteen  years  old  with  a 
gun  larger  than  himself  who  was  standing  by  us.  I  stuck  on  there. 
All  the  customers  were  ordered  out  of  the  store.  I  should  say  that 
there  were  at  least  twenty  or  thirty  in  the  store,  and  a  hundred  out- 
side. Everybody  was  lined  up  and  searched,  until  the  officers  were 
satisfied  they  did  not  want  them  and  let  them  go.  To  some  of  them 
they  would  say,  "I  don't  know  whether  we  want  you  or  not, — 
whether  you  are  on  the  Black  List."  And  they  would  stick  them 
into  the  lorries  and  say,  "Get  in,"  and  give  them  a  drive  around  the 
city  and  take  them  up  to  the  court  and  keep  them  for  several  days. 
Well,  I  went  out  after  it  was  over,  and  noticed  that  the  pane  of  glass 
was  broken,  and  I  said  to  Mr.  Millwood,  "What  is  the  matter  here?" 
And  he  said,  "I  heard  a  knock  and  thought  it  was  a  customer,  and 
before  I  could  get  there  the  officer  broke  the  door  in."  There  was 
a  lady  there  at  the  time  who  wanted  to  have  a  drink,  and  instead 
of  going  into  the  saloon,  she  was  sitting  there  by  the  door.  She 
heard  the  knock,  and  then  the  glass  broke,  and  she  looked  up  and 
saw  the  gun  pointed  at  her,  and  she  fainted.  There  was  a  very 
decent  officer  there,  an  inferior  officer,  and  he  said,  "What  was  done 
here?"  And  another  officer  came  in  and  asked  Mr.  Millwood  what 
the  damage  was;  and  he  told  him  about  the  pane  of  glass. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  that  paid  for?  A.  Not  while  I  was  there, 
it  wasn't  paid. 

Q.  Was  that  officer  who  made  the  inquiry  a  superior  officer? 
A.     He  seemed  to  be,  yes. 


706 

WANTONLY  BRUTAL  ASSAULT  AND  DESTRUCTION 

Q.  Were  you  on  Harbor  Row,  Queenstown,  in  December  last? 
A.    Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  what  happened  there?  A.  I  was  down  visiting 
a  friend  of  mine  in  Harbor  Row,  and  I  was  going  back  to  Mrs.  Mill- 
wood's when  a  woman  came  running  towards  me,  and  she  said,  "Get 
back,  get  back!"  And  I  said,  "What  is  the  matter?"  And  she  said, 
"The  Marines  are  out."  And  I  saw  the  crowd  coming,  and  I  did 
get  back  and  shut  the  door  and  got  out  of  the  way  in  a  place  there. 

Q.     Whose  place  was  it?     A.     It  was  Mr.  Thomas  Mackey's. 

Q.  A  public  bar?  A.  Yes.  Well,  when  I  had  hardly  got  in, — • 
there  were  five  men  standing  there  by  the  door, — when  this  marine, 
—he  was  in  khaki,  what  they  call  a  khaki  marine,  and  had  a  whip 
in  his  hand — 

Q.     Was  he  intoxicated?     A.     No,  he  was  not. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  he  drinking  at  the  bar?  A.  No,  he 
was  not.  He  came  in  just  after  I  did.  There  were  five  men  drinking 
at  the  bar.  And  he  came  in  with  this  whip  in  his  hand,  and  gave 
the  first  man  a  wallop  over  the  head.  There  were  two  light-colored 
raincoats  standing  by  the  door,  and  they  were  spattered  with  blood 
from  the  blow.  There  were  five  men  there,  and  he  dropped  them 
with  one  blow  each.  I  went  into  the  back  room.  And  I  heard  him 
say,  "We  will  get  these  Irish  so-and-sos  for  killing  our  men." 

Q.     Where  was  this?     A.     Queenstown. 

Q.  Were  there  any  officers  killed  there?  A.  No.  But  there  had 
been  in  Dublin. 

Q.  How  far  away  is  Dublin?  A.  I  should  say  about  one  hun- 
dred fifty  miles. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  there  were  no  officers  killed  in  Queens- 
town? A.  No,  none  whatever.  Well,  I  went  into  the  back  room, 
and  Mrs.  Mackey  was  there.  And  I  said,  "What  is  the  matter, 
Julia?"  (I  know  her  very  well.)  And  this  fellow  broke  the  glasses 
on  the  counter  and  came  in  and  looked  around.  And  when  he  went 
out  there  was  a  little  snug — a  little  private  drinking  room,  and  he 
broke  the  glass  there.  And  as  he  went  out,  there  was  a  canter  of 
water  on  the  counter,  and  he  broke  that  too.  He  had  a  little  tool 
they  call  a  trench  tool, — I  never  saw  one  before, — a  little  black 
instrument  about  a  foot  long,  sticking  out  of  his  hand.  He  used  that 
to  smash  things  up.     And  after  he  left  the  blue  marines  came  along. 

Q.  Will  you  distinguish  between  the  blue  marines  and  the  khaki 
marines?  A.  Well,  the  blue  marines  belong  to  the  navy.  There 
are  forces  of  the  Admiralty  in  Queenstown  Harbor.  But  these  khaki 
marines  are  guards  around  Queenstown  that  belong  under  the  con- 
trol of  the  army.  The  blue  marines  came  to  the  store  and  said, 
"What  happened  here?"     And  Mrs.  Mackey  said,  "There  is  nobody 


707 

can  tell  you  more  than  Mr.  Clarke,"  pointing  to  me.  And  I  told 
this  officer, — he  seemed  to  be  an  officer, — just  what  had  happened, 
as  I  am  telling  you.  And  I  told  him  what  had  happened  and  what 
this  man  said;  that  he  was  going  to  get  these  Irish  so-and-sos  for 
killing  their  officers. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  When  this  officer  came  in,  these  khaki  ma- 
rines were  there?     A.    No,  no.     They  were  gone. 

Q.  How  many  of  them?  A.  There  were  five  of  them  there,  but 
only  one  of  them  did  any  hitting. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  did  these  five  men  strike  back  in  any 
way?  A.  No,  they  didn't.  They  couldn't.  After  he  felled  the  first 
man,  the  second  man  put  up  his  arms,  and  two  ran,  and  the  other 
man  put  up  his  arms  to  ward  off  the  blow.  And  the  marine  doubled 
up  his  hands  to  hit  him,  and  then  gave  him  a  blow  just  across  here 
( indicating  top  of  head  ) . 

Q.  What  happened  to  these  five  men?  A.  Oh,  they  were  in 
the  hospital  for  about  a  week.  After  these  fellows  left,  some  people 
called  the  ambulance.  There  was  one  man  from  County  Clare,  and 
there  was  bad  train  service;  and  there  were  some  people  coming  in 
from  Clare  in  an  automobile  with  some  friends  from  this  country 
who  were  going  home,  and  they  drove  him  into  town  in  this  auto- 
mobile.    He  was  quite  a  stranger  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  these  fellows  have  been  pun- 
ished,— any  attempt  made  to  arrest  them  by  the  blue  marines? 
A.    No,  none  at  all. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  long  before  you  left  Queenstown  did  this 
occur?  A.  It  was  about  ten  days, — the  second  of  December,  and 
I  left  on  the  twelfth. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  As  far  as  you  could  learn,  this  was  done 
without  any  cause?  A.  Yes,  without  any  cause  or  provocation 
whatever. 

Q.  Now,  these  khaki  marines  who  did  this  work  all  left  before 
the  blue  marines  came  in?  A.  Yes,  they  all  went  out  of  the  store. 
Q.  As  soon  as  they  had  these  men  all  knocked  down  and  the 
glass  all  destroyed,  they  left?  A.  Yes,  and  they  went  to  another 
store  four  or  five  doors  further  on,  the  name  of  which  I  don't  know. 
And  the  people  had  bolted  it  up, — all  closed  up  entirely  before  they 
came.  And  they  could  not  get  in.  But  they  broke  the  glass  over 
the  door, — what  they  call  a  panel. 

Q.  But  they  could  not  get  in?  A.  They  could  not  get  in.  And 
finally  they  went  away. 

Q.  How  much  time  elapsed  until  they  went  away?  A.  About 
ten  minutes. 

Q.  While  this  fellow  was  smashing  things  up,  what  did  the  others 
do?  A.  They  simply  stood  around  and  watched  him.  And  they 
all  seemed  to  be  perfectly  sober. 


708 

DANGEROUS    BLACK-AND-TAN   SHIFTED   ABOUT 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  learn  of  any  polite  or  Black-and-Tans 
being  transferred  while  you  were  there?  A.  I  did.  There  was  a 
fellow  stationed  at  Haulbowline  Island.  It  is  a  Government  ship- 
yard that  repairs  Government  ships.  This  Black-and-Tan  was  sta- 
tioned there.  My  father-in-law  is  one  of  the  main  men  over  there; 
he  is  one  of  the  big  bosses.  And  he  told  me  that  this  man  was  a 
dangerous  man.  He  was  always  pulling  out  a  gun.  If  he  saw  a  cat 
running  along,  he  would  pull  out  his  gun  and  fire  at  him.  He  was 
a  dangerous  man  to  have  around. 

Q.  Major' Newman:  He  was  a  Black-and-Tan?  A.  Yes.  This 
man  was  so  dangerous  that  the  chief  had  him  transferred  to  Queens- 
town.  And  at  Queenstown  I  often  saw  this  fellow  down  about  the 
beach,  which  is  the  principal  part  of  Queenstown, — I  saw  him 
around  the  beach  nights  in  private  clothes,  drunk  and  firing  shots. 
One  night  I  saw  him  fire  point  blank  at  a  marine.  And  I  heard 
afterwards  from  one  of  the  marines — there  are  a  lot  of  decent  fel- 
lows among  them  I  know — two  of  them  were  in  there  one  day  and 
they  were  telling  me  about  this  fellow  who  was  fired  at  reporting 
to  his  superior  officer.  And  it  was  only  a  few  days'  time  after  this 
when  that  Black-and-Tan  was  transferred  back  to  Haulbowline 
Island. 

REPUBLICAN  POLICE  PRESERVE  PUBLIC  SAFETY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  work  of  the 
Volunteers  and  the  courts?  A.  No,  I  don't  know  anything  about  the 
courts,  but  I  mixed  in  with  a  lot  of  Volunteers. 

Q.  What  was  your  general  opinion  of  their  conduct  and  service? 
A.  As  far  as  I  could  see,  they  were  a  fine,  clean-cut  lot  of  men,  all 
nice  fellows. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  of  their  police  work  in  preserving 
public  safety?  A.  Yes,  I  did.  I  saw  them  make  arrests, — I  would 
not  say  arrests,  but  taking  a  man  to  a  place  of  safety,  up  to  this 
old  school.  Friday  night  is  a  pay  night  at  this  shipyard  there,  and 
some  of  the  men  would  have  a  few  drinks  too  many.  And  any  man 
there  who  was  under  the  influence  of  liquor,  or  even  showed  signs 
of  liquor,  they  would  take  him  up  there  and  let  him  go  home  the 
next  morning,  and  tell  him  it  was  a  shame  for  them  to  spend  their 
hard-earned  money  like  that  in  these  hard  times,  instead  of  taking 
the  money  home  to  their  wives.  I  have  often  heard  them  come  into 
Mr.  Millwood's  place  and  tell  the  fellows  to  get  out  of  that;  that 
their  wives  needed  their  money  worse  than  Mr.  Millwood  did. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  their  recovering  property  or  anything 
like  that?  A.  I  did.  There  was  a  boot  store  at  Harbor  Row,  and 
the  owner  reported  that  the  store  had  been  broken  into,  a  quantity 


iid   lliev 

\v; 

anted   to  get  the 

track  o] 

•  tli 

at,  and  after  an 

then  g< 

»t  ll 

ic  men    who  had 

place  c< 

.lie 

d  The  Beach  in 

em   bef( 

>re 

a    court.      They 

years;  ( 

»ld. 

lint   the  police 

709 

of  hoots  had   been   stolen    from   there,   ai 

goods  hack.     The  Volunteers  got  on  the 

hour  or  so  the.)   recovered  the  shoes,  and 

stolen    the  shoes.      They   took   them   to  a 

Harbor  Row.   and   were  going   to   try   th 

were  quite  young, — twenty  or  twenty-one 

got  wind  of  it.  and  just  then  four  R.  I.  C.'s  came  in.     As  soon   as 

they  saw  them,  they  told  these  hoys  to  beat  it,  and  they  got  out  of 

there  themselves.      There   were    four  shots  fired,   and   one   of  these 

shots  burned  a  hole  in  an  overcoat  that  this  Mrs.  Mohan's  brother 

was  wearing  at  the  time.     It  was  near  the  harbor,  and  two  of  them 

jumped  into  the  harbor,  and  two  of  them  got  into  a  boat, — this  Mrs. 

Mohan's  brother  and  another  boy, — it  would  not  do  to  mention  his 

name;  and  they  rowed  themselves  across  to  Ahada  for  safety. 

Q.  This  case  of  returning  stolen  property  is  not  an  exception, 
then?  The  Volunteers  were  doing  work  of  that  kind,  were  they? 
A.  Oh.  yes;  it  was  not  an  exceptional  case.  But  I  saw  this  case. 
I  heard  of  a  lot  of  others,  but  I  am  just  relating  what  I  saw. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  what  was  done  to  the  men 
who  stole  the  property?  A.  No,  I  could  not  really  say.  Those 
fellowrs  are  tried  by  a  Sinn  Fein  court,  and  if  they  are  found  guilty, 
they  are  sentenced  according  to  their  crime. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Do  you  know  what  those  sentences  are? 
A.  Well,  they  vary.  Some  of  them  three  months,  and  some  of  them 
thirty  days. 

Q.  Senator  Norris :  Where  are  they  taken?  A.  I  could  not  say. 
They  call  it  over  there  a  U.  D.,  that  is,  an  unknown   destination. 

Q.  Is  that  because  the  British  officials  would  not  let  them  im- 
prison them?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  they  have  to  take  them  to  some  place  that  is  unknown  to 
the  British  authorities?     A.     True.     That  is  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  of  any  case  where  the  British  offi- 
cials tried  to  arrest  people  who  were  taken  to  a  U.  D.?  A.  Yes, 
I  do. 

Q.  Tell  about  it.  A.  Well,  there  were  two  men  who  were  drunk 
and  disorderly,  and  were  sentenced  to  stay  on  an  island  for  a  certain 
length  of  time,  with  just  so  much  to  eat  and  so  much  to  drink.  And 
the  R.  I.  C.  heard  about  it,  and  went  to  this  island  to  take  them  off. 
And  these  men  said,  "No,  we  will  not  be  taken  off  this  island.  We 
were  taken  here  by  our  own,  and  we  will  not  be  taken  off." 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  So  they  would  not  be  rescued?  A.  No,  they 
would  not  be  rescued. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Howe. 


710 

NINETY  PER  CENT.  OF  YOUNG  MEN  "ON  THE  RUN" 

Chairman  Howe:  How  many  young  men  of  Queenstown  are  on 
the  run?     A.     I  should  say  90  per  cent,  of  them. 

Q.  And  they  work  during  the  daytime,  do  they?  A.  Some  of 
them  do  and  some  of  them  don't. 

Q.  And  at  night  time  they  scatter?  A.  Yes,  they  scatter.  There 
is,  suppose,  a  family  of  several  boys,  some  of  whom  are  wanted. 
And  if  they  come  and  search  for  one  of  the  boys  who  is  wanted  and 
they  do  not  find  him,  they  might  take  some  of  the  others. 

Q.  And  they  sleep  under  cover?  A.  Yes,  some  of  them  do. 
But  some  of  them,  like  Mrs.  Mohan  said,  sleep  in  the  graveyard. 
I  have  seen  them  coming  out  of  there  myself.  And  as  in  the  case 
of  this  Mr.  Moore,  he  took  me  and  showed  me  his  wife's  grave,  and 
said,  "I  am  going  to  sleep  there  on  my  wife's  grave,  rain  or  shine, 
and  if  they  shoot  me,  I  will  be  there."  They  are  after  some  of  his 
boys.    There  is  not  a  pane  of  glass  left  in  his  house. 

CONTINUOUS  TERRORISM  CAUSES  NERVOUS 
BREAKDOWNS 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Do  you  know  of  any  cases  of  insanity  occur- 
ring among  the  people  because  of  this  tension?  A.  Yes,  I  do. 
This  man,  Mr.  Moore,  he  was  really  insane.  I  went  up  behind  him 
and  spoke  to  him,  and  he  jumped  like  he  was  shot.  And  his  daugh- 
ter of  seventeen,  she  came  over  to  this  country  on  the  Celtic,  and  she 
is  not  right.  I  would  not  say  she  is  insane,  but  she  is  a  nervous 
breakdown. 

Q.  Is  that  common  among  the  people  of  Ireland,  among  the 
women  and  children?  A.  Yes,  it  is.  The  women  and  children  are 
terribly  nervous.  Many  of  them  are  nervous  wrecks.  When  they 
hear  a  raid  coming  they  go  to  pieces.  And  the  men,  a  lot  of  them 
are  nervous  wrecks. 

PURPOSE  OF  PROMISCUOUS  DESTRUCTION  TO 
TERRORIZE  PEOPLE 

Q.  Major  Newman:  How  general  is  the  destruction  of  property 
in  Queenstown?  A.  Oh,  95  per  cent,  of  the  windows  in  the  city 
are  broken.  There  may  be  a  few  side  streets  where  il  is  not  done, 
but  on  the  main  streets  every  window  is  smashed. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  is  done  by  the  police  or  the  Black-and- 
Tans?     A.     By  both  of  them. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  I  mean,  not  in  one  place,  but  all  over? 
A.     All   over  the  town.     It  is  a  total  wreck. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    But  I  mean,  they  do  not  destroy  a  house  be- 


711 

cause  of  anybody  living  in  that  particular  house  they  waul,  but  just 
to  terrorize  the  people?     A.     Yes,  just  to  terrorize  the  people. 

Q.  So  that  they  were  perfectly  promiscuous;  they  do  not  care 
whether  friend  or  foe  lives  in  a  house?  A.  Yes,  just  to  put  terror 
into  the  people.     It  was  perfectly  promiscuous. 

IRISH  HOMES  WITHOUT  ARMS  FOR  SELF-DEFENSE 

Q.  Now,  would  not  this  result  in  these  men  getting  shot?  Did 
not  people  defend  themselves  and  their  homes  against  them?  A. 
No,  I  never  heard  of  any  case  of  it. 

Q.  Well,  for  instance,  in  this  home  where  you  were  staying,  did 
not  they  have  any  revolvers  around?  A.  No,  not  a  one.  I  never 
heard  of  it. 

Q.  We  have  had  so  many  of  these  cases  before  us,  and  we  do- 
not  see  why  they  don't  shoot  these  men  who  break  into  their  homes. 
A.  I  don't  think  the  Irish  people  want  to  do  any  shooting.  They 
are  a  very  quiet-living  race,  a  God-fearing  race. 

Q.  But  it  seems  to  me  that  a  man  who  has  gone  through  several 
of  these  raids  and  thinks  he  is  probably  to  be  killed  anyway,  and 
that  his  home  will  be  destroyed,  and  if  he  isn't  killed,  that  he  is 
likely  to  go  insane, — why  doesn't  he  kill  these  men?  A.  Well,  the 
Irish  people  think  that  when  you  kill,  it  is  murder,  and  you  are 
breaking  one  of  the  Ten  Commandments. 

Q.  But  do  not  the  Irish  people  feel  that  they  ought  to  defend 
their  homes?  A.  Yes.  but  they  don't  think  they  can  cope  with 
England,  as  big  as  she  is,  in  that  way.  And  the  only  thing  they  are 
looking  for  now  is  that  some  other  nation  will  come  along  and  help 
them;  that  they  are  the  only  white  race  now  that  has  not  been 
helped. 

Q.  \es,  but  I  do  not  understand  why  a  man  would  not  defend 
himself,  knowing  it  would  be  death  to  him  anyway.  A.  But  there 
is  another  thing.  Suppose  that  he  was  the  father  of  a  family;  and 
if  he  killed  them,  they  might  kill  his  family  and  burn  up  the  place. 

Q.  Did  you  carry  a  revolver?  A.  Me?  No,  indeed  I  did  not. 
Believe  me.  we  were  pretty  well  searched  before  we  got  into  the 
country.  I  got  into  Southampton,  and  before  we  came  over  to  Ire- 
land, before  we  got  on  the  boat,  we  were  searched  thoroughly.  And 
then  before  we  got  off  the  boat,  before  we  got  into  Ireland,  we  were 
searched  again  thoroughly.  They  were  customs  officers,  I  suppose, 
but  they  were  in  plain  clothes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  they  search  your  person  or  your  baggage? 
A.  No,  they  searched  everything,  my  clothing  and  my  baggage. 
One  of  them  even  ran  his  finger  between  my  collar,  and  I  asked  him 
if  he  was  looking  for  Black-and-Tans,  and  I  said  if  he  hunted  a 


712 

little  further  down  he  might  find  one.  There  were  women  there 
with  big  trunks.  You  eould  not  get  help.  They  looked  through 
them,  too. 

TERRORISM    CONFIRMS   PEOPLE   IN    UNYIELDING 
STRUGGLE   FOR   FREEDOM 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  effect  has  this  terrorism  had  upon 
the  Irish  people?  A.  Well,  the  only  thing  that  they  are  looking 
forward  to,  the  common  opinion  of  the  rich  and  poor  of  Ireland,  is 
the  help  that  they  are  going  to  get  from  America. 

Q.  But  I  do  not  mean  that  exactly.  What  effect  have  the  hap- 
penings of  the  last  year  had  upon  them?  A.  They  are  determined 
to  stick  to  the  last. 

Q.  Is  there  any  evidence  that  their  spirit  is  being  broken  under 
the  pressure?  A.  No,  I  don't  think  so.  For  every  one  of  them 
will  tell  you  that  they  are  there  to  die  for  their  country,  and  they 
are  going  to  fight  this  thing  through  to  the  bitter  end. 

Q.  Is  that  feeling  stronger  than  it  was  a  year  ago?  A.  Well, 
I  was  not  there  a  year  ago,  but  the  feeling  is  pretty  strong.  Every 
day  it  seems  to  be  stronger,  when  they  read  of  these  raids  and  kill- 
ings and  the  like.     They  have  no  idea  of  giving  in. 

WOMEN  SEARCHED,  ROBBED,  AND  SHOT 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  any  searches  of  women  in  Ireland? 
A.     I  did. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  of  any  of  those  circumstances?  A.  Why,  yes. 
It  was  about  a  week  or  so  before  I  left. 

Q.  Where  was  this,  in  Queenstown?  A.  No,  it  was  in  the  City 
of  Cork.  I  was  up  in  the  City  of  Cork  on  business,  and  was  making 
for  the  train  to  take  me  back  to  Queenstown  again.  And  I  was  com- 
ing along  King  Street, — that  leads  you  down  to  the  railroad  station. 
And  I  was  along  there  and  heard  "Halt!"  And  I  halted.  And  I 
looked  around  and  saw  about  eight  men  in  R.  I.  C.  uniform.  And 
they  said,  "Put  them  up!"  And  I  put  them  up  all  right.  And  I 
told  one  of  those  fellows, — he  was  quite  a  young  fellow,  and  looked 
to  be  a  Black-and-Tan,  and  he  came  over  and  I  said,  "I  am  an  Ameri- 
can." He  didn't  say  anything,  and  went  back.  Two  young  ladies 
came  along,  and  he  said,  "Halt!  Put  them  up."  And  one  of  the 
ladies  had  packages,  and  she  put  them  down.  And  this  young  fel- 
low searched  the  girl.  He  searched  her  outer  garments,  and  then 
opened  up  her  clothes,  and  lifted  up  her  dress  as  high  as  her  knees 
and  searched  her  stockings.  And  the  other  lady  was  crying.  And 
he  said,  "Shut  up,  or  I  will  give  you  the  contents  of  this,"  pointing 


713 

to  his  gun.  And  he  took  her  rings  off  her  fingers  and  pulled  tin- 
rings  out  of  her  ears. 

Q.  Pulled  the  rings  off  her  fingers?  A.  Pulled  the  rings  off 
of  her  fingers.     Yes.     And  tore  the  earrings  out  of  her  ears. 

Q.     And  you  saw  them?      A.     Yes,  I  was  just  standing  there. 

Q.      Did  he  give  them  back  to  her?      A.     0.  no,  he  did  not. 

Q.  And  he  was  a  Black-and-Tan?  A.  I  could  not  really  say, 
because  they  are  all  dressed  in  the  same  uniform  now. 

Q.  Was  that  in  the  day  time?  A.  Yes.  it  was  about  five 
o'clock,  because  I  was  making  for  the  train. 

Q.     Were  there  many  people  there?      A.     0,  yes,  many  people. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  How  did  he  pull  the  earrings  out  of  her 
ears?  Did  he  tear  her  ears?  A.  Well,  he  just  tore  them  out  like 
this   (indicating  a  grab  for  the  lobe  of  the  ear). 

Q.  Did  her  ears  bleed?  A.  I  could  not  say.  And  then  a  mo- 
ment after  that  there  was  a  shot  fired,  and  I  looked  around  and  a 
fellow  came  along,  and  he  said,  "You  had  better  get  in,  because  a 
girl  has  just  been  hit  by  a  bullet." 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  One  of  the  same  girls?  A.  No,  not  the 
same  girls. 

Q.  Now,  who  fired  that  shot?  A.  I  could  not  say.  This  fel- 
low told  me  that  the  police  had  fired  it,  but  I  did  not  see  it.  I  could 
not  say.  She  was  half  sitting  there  on  the  curb  and  half  lying  there, 
with  her  head  on  the  sidewalk.  There  were  people  coming  there, 
and  as  I  had  only  a  few  minutes  to  get  my  train,  I  did  not  stop. 
The  Black-and-Tans  or  the  police — whatever  they  were,  seemed  to 
have  disappeared  from  there.  And  as  I  went  on,  I  heard  some  more 
reports  from  over  in  the  direction  of  Sunday's  Well.  I  got  my 
train,  and  a  fellow  in  the  same  compartment  said,  "Did  you  see 
what  happened  in  Sunday's  Well?"  And  I  said,  "No,  I  saw  what 
happened  in  King  Street."  And  he  said,  "There  was  another  man 
shot  in  Sunday's  Well."  And  the  next  day  I  read  in  the  newspapers 
that  a  fellow  who  was  deaf  was  called  upon  to  halt,  and  did  not 
hear,  and  was  shot;  and  he  died. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  heard  the  shot?  A.  Yes,  I  heard  the 
shot.     And  the  next  day  I  read  about  it  in  the  paper. 

Q.  But  you  saw  this  girl  shot  yourself?  A.  Yes,  I  saw  the 
girl  shot  myself. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  was  the  cause  given  for  that  in  the 
papers?      A.     Just  an  outbreak  by  the  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  And  they  just  break  out  like  that  and  kill  somebody?  A. 
Yes,  they  do.  One  man  told  me  he  saw  this:  a  band  of  Black-and- 
Tans  came  down  the  street,  and  every  window  they  came  to  they 
banged  in.  And  they  had  a  little  song,  "We  are  the  Black-and- 
Tans."  telling  what  they  were  going  to  do  and  all  that  sort  of  thing. 
He  got  along  there  and  knocked  at  a  door  to  get  in.     The  people 


714 

were  flying  like  sheep  ahead  of  them.  It  was  not  safe  to  be  any- 
where near  them.  And  the  people  in  the  house  opened  the  door  and 
he  got  in  there  for  safety.  When  they're  out  on  a  raid  like  that 
your  life  is  in  danger  if  you  are  on  the  street. 

NO  RETALIATION  AGAINST  QUEENSTOWN  POLICE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know,  during  the  time  that  you  were  in 
Queenstown,  how  many  police  or  Black-and-Tans  were  killed?  A. 
In  Queenstown? 

Q.  Yes,  in  Queenstown.  A.  There  were  none  killed  at  all,  or 
none  wounded. 

Q.     During  the  whole  time  that  you  were  there?     A.     Yes. 

Mr.  Manly:    That  is  all. 

FARMS,  BARNS,  AND  HAYSTACKS  BURNED 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Wait  a  moment;  there  is  something  else  I 
would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Clarke  while  he  is  here.  Mr.  Clarke,  did  you 
travel  about  over  the  country  and  the  farming  districts?  A.  I  did. 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  find  any  evidence  of  hay  or  other  farm  property  be- 
ing destroyed?     A.     I  did. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that.  A.  I  motored  about  a  great  deal 
throughout  the  country.  That  was  the  only  way  to  go.  Sometimes 
I  went  in  a  side-car.  And  on  several  occasions  I  saw  them, — farms 
and  barns  and  haystacks  and  beires — where  they  keep  cows,  and 
stables,  all  burned  to  the  ground.  There  was  one  place,  Carrigto- 
hill,  in  County  Cork,  where  the  man  showed  us  a  lot  of  bones,  and 
he  said  that  was  all  that  was  left  of  his  cattle.  He  had  thirty  cows 
and  eighteen  pigs  and  seven  horses, — all  burned. 

Q.  All  burned?  They  were  in  the  stables,  were  they?  A.  Yes, 
and  they  were  all  burned. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  who  did  it?  A.  He  didn't  really  know. 
But  he  said  that  the  military  was  around  there  on  a  raid,  and  after 
they  left,  about  five  or  ten  minutes  afterward,  he  smelled  smoke, 
and  he  saw  the  stack  of  hay  on  fire.  He  tried  to  extinguish  it  with 
pails  of  water,  but  the  hay  was  so  dry  that  it  got  headway,  and  it 
spread  and  burned  everything  in  the  farmyard.  His  house  was  quite 
a  bit  away  from  the  farmyard,  so  it  escaped. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  That  was  at  night?  A.  No,  it  was  in  the 
evening,  about  six  or  seven  o'clock. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  It  does  not  get  dark  so  early  as  it  does 
here?     A.     No. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:    Was  that  a  general  thing?      A.     It  was.     Il 


715 

was.  It  was  the  general  thing  all  over  the  country  to  see  hay  and 
barns  burned, — just  a  stack  of  ashes. 

Q.     Did  you  see  any  burning  of  creameries?      A.     No. 

Q.  Did  they  burn  any  homes?  A.  It  is  generally  barns  and 
stables  and  hay  they  go  after. 

PEOPLE  FACING  STARVATION 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  do  the  people  of  Cork  get  food?  A. 
Well,  they  do  not.     It  is  a  serious  thing.     People  are  starving  there. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  They  cannot  get  food?  A.  They  can't  get 
food.     It  is  very  serious. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  How  many  towns  did  you  cover?  A. 
Well,  I  could  not  say.     A  good  many  of  them. 

Q.     How  many  miles?     A.     About  three  thousand  miles. 

Q.     You  did  that  on  motor?     A.     Most  of  it  on  motors. 

Q.     And  this  is  the  general  rule?     A.     The  general  rule. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Were  some  parts  of  the  country  worse  than 
others?  A.  Well,  County  Cork,  of  course,  and  Tipperary  seemed 
to  be  the  worst  counties. 

IRELAND   "A  MASS   OF  DESTRUCTION" 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Could  you  tell  the  Commission  what  counties 
you  were  in?  A.  Waterford,  Wexford,  Cork,  Clare,  Tipperary, 
and  Kerry. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  you  go  to  Balbriggan?  A.  No,  I  did 
not  go  to  Balbriggan. 

Q.  Chairman  Howe:  Did  you  cover  a  quarter  of  Ireland,  or  a 
fifth  of  it?     A.     Yes,  I  covered  more  than  a  quarter  of  Ireland. 

Q.  And  all  that  country  was  devastated  in  much  the  same  way? 
A.     It  was. 

Q.     Was  there  any  train  service?     A.     Almost  none. 

Q.     Were  there  any  markets  in  the  towns?      A.     No,  no  markets. 

Q.  There  was  no  chance  for  the  people  to  barter  in  trade?  A. 
No,  there  was  not. 

Q.  And  they  were  living  on  just  what  they  chanced  to  get?  A. 
Yes,  just  what  they  chanced  to  get.  It  is  a  terrible  condition.  There 
is  a  mass  of  destruction.  I  could  sit  here  for  three  weeks,  and  it 
would  not  make  as  much  impression  on  you  as  if  you  saw  it  once 
yourself. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

PROTESTANTS  EXPRESS  HORROR  AT  MURDER  OF 
REPUBLICAN  PRIEST 

Mr.  Manly:  Before  we  adjourn,  there  is  one  matter  I  would  like 
to  lay  before  you.    This  is  a  copy  of  the  Connacht  Tribune  of  Gal- 


716 

way  giving  an  account  of  the  funeral  of  Father  Griffin,  the  priest 
who  was  killed.  This  is  the  Connacht  Tribune  of  Saturday,  Novem- 
ber 27,  1920,  printed  in  Galway.  It  contains  three  letters  from 
well-known  Protestants,  two  of  whom  are  Protestant  ministers. 

First,  the  letter  from  Reverend  Canon  J.  Fleetwood  Berry,  M.  A., 
a  Protestant  Episcopal  rector,  who  writes: 

"The  Rectory,  Galway,  November  21,  1920. 
"Dear  Father  Davis:  I  cannot  refrain  from  writing  to  you  to  ex- 
press our  deep  sympathy  with  you  in  your  sorrow  for  the  shocking 
and  terrible  occurrence.  I  cannot  say  how  horrified  and  grieved  I 
am  at  Father  Griffin's  death,  and  I  hasten  to  write  to  you  how  much 
I  feel  for  his  relatives  and  for  all  who  have  been  associated  with 
him.     With  deepest  sympathy,  I  remain, 

"Yours  sincerely, 

"J.  Fleetwood  Berry." 

The  next  is  a  letter  from  Reverend  R.  Francis,  M.  A.,  Protestant 
minister,  College  Road,  Galway,  who  wrote: 

"Dear  Father  Davis:  Please  allow  me  to  tell  you  how  horrified 
I  feel  at  the  awful  tragedy  which  has  overtaken  your  curate,  Father 
Griffin;  and  also  to  convey  to  you  my  sincere  sympathy  with  you  in 
the  great  loss  you  have  sustained.  I  did  not  think  it  possible  that 
such  an  awful  fate  could  befall  a  Christian  priest  in  a  Christian 
land.  Truly,  we  are  living  in  sad  and  troublous  times,  and  one 
never  knows  what  is  going  to  happen  next.  I  pray  God  that  this  is 
the  darkest  hour  that  precedes  the  dawn,  and  that  our  blessed  land 
may  soon  enjoy  the  blessings  of  peace  and  good-will.  With  my 
heartfelt  sympathy, 

"Yours  sincerely, 

"R.  Francis." 

The  last  one  is  from  Mr.  S.  Anderson  of  Mill  Brook  House,  Gal- 
way, a  well-known  Presbyterian  citizen: 

"Dear  Father  Davis:  If  any  words  of  mine  can  in  the  least  allay 
the  sorrow  and  grief  at  the  loss  of  your  able  and  respected  coad- 
jutor, Father  Griffin,  I  do  so  with  my  fullest  compassion.  No  one 
can  but  view  with  horror  and  detestation  the  wanton  and  brutal 
murder  of  a  young  life  so  full  of  promise  and  usefulness.  It  must 
be  a  comfort  to  you  to  know  that  the  sympathy  of  every  right-think- 
ing man  and  woman  of  all  creeds  and  classes  goes  out  to  you  and 
those  connected  will)  your  church.  Please  convey  to  Mrs.  Griffin 
my  sympathy. 

"Very  faithfully  yours, 

"S.  Anderson." 


717 

Chairman  Howe:  The  hearings  will  adjourn  until  approximately 
the  twelfth  of  January,  and  then  they  will  be  resumed  with  three  or 
four  witnesses  from  England  or  Ireland,  and  a  number  of  other  wit- 
nesses. 

Mr.  Manly:  We  will  eertainly  have  by  that  time  witnesses  from 
Cork  with  reference  to  this  last  big  destruction  of  Cork  which  took 
place  two  weeks  ago,  in  which  several  hundred  houses  and  the  whole 
city  practically  was  burned  and  sacked. 

Chairman  Howe:  The  sessions  are  adjourned.     12:50  P.  M. 


FIFTH  HEARINGS  ON  CONDITION  IN  IRELAND 

Before  the 

AMERICAN    COMMISSION    OF   INQUIRY    ON 
CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Session  One 

Jane  Addams 

Frederic  C.  Howe 

James  H.  Maurer 

Oliver  P.  Newman 

George  W.  Norris  \  COMMISSIONERS 

Norman  Thomas  | 

David  I.  Walsh 

L.   HOLLINGSWORTH   WOOD  j 

Chairman      I 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Thursday,  January  13,  1921. 

Chairman  Hollingsworth  Wood  presiding. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  Commission  will  please  come  to  order. 
Our  first  witness  is  Mr.  Donal  O'Callaghan,  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork, 
who  comes  at  the  request  of  this  Commission  in  answer  to  our  in- 
vitation to  tell  us  of  the  conditions  in  Ireland  when  he  left.  I  would 
like  to  say  to  you,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  we  appreciate  very 
much  your  effort  to  be  with  us,  and  that  these  hearings  are  public, 
and  we  try  to  make  them  as  free  as  we  can, — we  do  not  desire  to 
impede  a  witness  in  any  way  in  telling  his  story.  We  expect  that 
witnesses  will  confine  themselves  as  much  as  possible  to  the 
things  they  have  seen,  so  that  our  record  will  not  be  encumbered 
with  all  the  unnecessary  amount  of  atmosphere  that  otherwise  it 
would  contain. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LORD  MAYOR  DONAL 
O'CALLAGHAN 

Q.     Chairman   Wood:   Will   you   give  your   full   name   and   ad- 
dress to  the  stenographer?     A.     Donal  O'Callaghan. 
Q.     And  you  reside?     A.     I  reside  at  Cork. 
Mr.  Michael  Francis  Doyle  I  of  counsel  I  :    With  the  permission  of 

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your  honorable  Commission,  I  would  like  to  have  the  privilege  of 
starting  the  witness. 

Q.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  in  the  first  place,  what  is  your  present  ad- 
dress?    A.     You  mean  in  Cork? 

Q.     Yes,  sir.     A.     Douglas  Street. 

Q.     What  is  vour  age?     A.     I  am  twenty-nine. 

PUBLIC   AND   PRIVATE  OFFICES  HELD   BY 
LORD   MAYOR 

Q.  What  is  your  present  occupation?  A.  Al  present  I  am  di- 
rector of  a  shipping   agency  in  Cork. 

Q.  What  is  your  public  position  in  Ireland?  A.  1  am  Lord 
Mayor  of  the  City  of  Cork,  and  Chairman  of  the  Cork  County  Coun- 
cil. I  am  also  on  all  the  public  boards  in  Cork,  the  Cork  Harbor 
Commissioners,  the  Cork  Technical  and  Agricultural  Committee,  the 
City  Hospital  Board,  the  Cork  Joint  Hospital  Committee.  1  am  a 
member  of  the  governing  body  of  Cork  Lhiiversity  College.  I  am 
chairman  of  the  Gaelic  League  of  Cork,  and  a  member  of  the  Na- 
tional Executive  of  the  Gaelic  League  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Are  those  in  virtue  of  your  office  as  Lord 
Mayor?  A.  Some  of  them  are  and  some  of  them  are  not.  By 
virtue  of  my  office  of  Chairman  of  the  County  Council  I  am  entitled 
under  British  law  to  a  J.  P.  in  the  county;  and  by  virtue  of  my  po- 
sition in  the  city  I  am  entitled  to  the  chief  magistracy  in  the  City. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  You  say  you  are  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

ELECTED  BY  CITY  COUNCIL  FOLLOWING  DEATH 
OF  LORD  MAYOR  MACSWINEY 

Q.  How  were  you  elected?  A.  On  the  arrest  of  the  late  Lord 
Mayor  MacSwiney,  I  was  nominated  by  him  to  act  as  his  deputy 
during  his  imprisonment.  I  acted  in  that  position  up  to  the  time 
of  his  death  and  some  three  or  four  days  after  his  death.  Accord- 
ing to  statute,  in  case  of  a  vacancy  of  that  kind,  a  new  election  must 
take  place  within  seven  days  of  the  death  of  the  previous  occupant. 
That  election  took  place  about  four  days  after  the  death  of  the  late 
Lord  Mayor,  and  at  that  election  I  was  elected  by  the  members  of 
the  Council  the  Lord  Mayor. 

Q.  You  were  elected  under  the  statute  that  provides  for  the  mu- 
nicipal elections?     A.     Absolutely. 

Q.  You  say  you  are  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork.  Will  you  be  good 
enough,  before  you  proceed  with  your  testimony,  that  we  may  bet- 
ter understand  the  situation,  to  state  the  difference  between  lord 
mayor  and  mayor,  and  how  many  cities  of  Ireland  have  lord  mayors 
as  distinguished  from  mayors?     A.     In  Ireland  the  three  largest 


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cities,  Belfast,  Dublin,  and  Cork,  elect  lord  mayors.  The  remaining 
eight  or  nine  corporations  elect  mayors.  There  are  only  three  lord 
mayors,  Dublin,  Cork,  and  Belfast. 

With  your  permission,  I  would  like  to  explain  the  full  machinery 
of  the  election  of  the  lord  mayor,  as  apart  from  the  election  of  the 
lord  mayor  himself.  The  corporation  which  elects  the  lord  mayor 
are  elected  by  popular  suffrage  in  the  city,  the  city  being  divided 
into  wards  for  the  purpose,  and  each  ward  electing  by  ballot  a  cer- 
tain number  of  representatives  on  the  Council.  The  two  senior  rep- 
resentatives, or  the  two  first  returned,  are  called  aldermen.  The 
remaining  four  or  five,  as  the  case  may  be,  are  called  councillors. 
These  men  are  all  elected  by  poular  vote,  and  they  in  council  elect 
one  of  their  number  to  act  as  lord  mayor. 

ABSENCE  OF  ANY  SENSE  OF  SECURITY  IN 
IRELAND  TODAY 

Q.  When  did  you  arrive  in  this  country?  A.  I  arrived  here, 
roughly,  eight  or  nine  days  ago. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  you  were  born  in  Ireland?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  born  in  Cork. 

Q.  And  you  are  familiar  with  conditions  as  they  exist  in  Ire- 
land today?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  be  good  enough  to  state  in  a  general  way  what  con- 
ditions you  observed  in  Ireland,  say  during  the  last  four  years,  be- 
ginning 1916?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  one  feature  which  covers  the 
general  conditions,  as  covering  every-day  life,  is  the  absence  of  any 
sense  of  security.  All  through  that  time  raids  and  arrests  have  been 
the  order.  At  times  the  campaign  is  more  intensive  than  at  other 
times. 

Q.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  can  you  raise  your  voice  a  little  so  that  the 
audience  can  hear?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

PUBLIC  OFFICIALS  HARASSED  BY  DAILY  DANGER 
OF  ARREST 

Well,  at  all  times  there  has  been  for  every  man  connected  with 
the  national  movement,  or  especially  with  public  administration, 
there  has  been  the  daily  danger  of  arrest,  irrespective  of  any  charge, 
or,  of  course,  of  any  crime  committed.  At  various  times  that  cam- 
paign became  intensive.  There  were  general  round-ups  throughout 
the  country.  In  some  of  these  round-ups  hundreds  of  men,  and  in 
one  case  as  many  as  three  thousand  were  arrested  in  the  country 
and  thrown  into  jail;  kept  there  for  a  considerable  period, — in  that 
case  for  ten  months,  without  any  charge  or  any  trial ;  with  the  re- 
sult that  all  these  men  who  occupy  any  position  which  entails  that 


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danger  were  always  prevented  from  giving  their  condensed  atten- 
tion to  their  public  duties  and  to  their  work  in  the  national  move- 
ment, having,  as  well  as  trying  to  continue  their  work,  to  seek  to 
evade  arrest  and  the  possibility  of  arrest.  That,  generally,  gives 
the  atmosphere  for  these  four  years  that  you  asked  for,  with  the 
qualification  that  it  has  become  greatly  intensified.  That  is  espe- 
cially the  case  for  the  past  twelve  months;  and  still  more  especially 
the  case  for  the  past  six  or  three  months.  It  has  been  steadily  grow- 
ing worse.  During  that  time  there  has  been  no  sense  of  security, 
because,  apart  from  the  danger  of  arrest  as  far  as  a  particular  man 
was  concerned,  there  was  the  daily  or  nightly  danger  to  his  people, 
of  having  their  homes  raided  and  all  their  property  smashed  up  and 
wrecked,  if  not  stolen  in  many  cases,  as  well  as  being  subjected  to 
ill-treatment.  In  some  of  these  cases,  when  these  round-ups  took 
place,  the  men,  instead  of  being  imprisoned  in  Ireland,  were  de- 
ported to  England  and  kept  for  quite  long  periods  in  detention 
camps,  and  confined  for  long  periods  in  England  until  let  out  on 
parole. 

BRITISH  BEGIN  CAMPAIGN  OF  MURDER  OF 
PUBLIC   OFFICIALS 

That  was  generally  the  state  of  affairs  until  early  in  this  past 
year,  down,  I  think,  to  the  time  on  the  night  of  last  Saint  Patrick's 
Day,  the  17th  of  March,  when, — in  the  interval,  I  might  explain,  in 
January  the  Republican  Party  came  into  power  in  Cork;  they 
manned  the  city  corporation,  the  county  council,  and  the  other  pub- 
lic bodies.  Immediately  subsequent  to  the  coming  into  power  of 
the  Republican  Party  in  January,  Alderman  MacCurtain  was  elected 
Lord  Mayor  on  the  twenty-third  of  January  last.  At  the  time  of  his 
election  he • 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  That  was  not  January  last,  was  it?  A. 
January  last,  yes,  sir.  For  some  time  previous  to  his  election  in 
January,  he  and  several  others  in  Cork  and  throughout  the  country 
had  been  for  a  considerable  time  on  the  run.  I  remember  distinctly 
that  the  late  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  arrived  in  town  a  few  days 
before  his  election,  and  remained  hidden  until  his  sudden  more  or 
less  dramatic  appearance  on  the  day  of  the  election.  He  counted 
on  the  fact  that  if  he  remained  free  until  the  election  actually  took 
place  and  until  he  held  the  position  of  Lord  Mayor,  that  he  would 
to  a  certain  extent  be  immune,  temporarily  at  least,  from  arrest. 
Consequently,  after  the  declaration  of  office  on  his  election,  he  re- 
mained in  the  city  and  from  that  time  on  moved  around  the  city 
pretty  well  openly  and  normally.  That  state  of  affairs  continued 
until  Saint  Patrick's  night  last,  the  seventeenth  of  March.  On  that 
night  the  members  of  the  corporation  invited  Lord  Mayor  MacCur- 


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tain  to  a  dinner.  We  held  the  dinner  in  one  of  the  city  hotels,  and 
one  of  the  members  of  the  corporation  who  left  somewhere  about 
eleven,  Alderman  Stockley,  who  is  professor  of  English  Literature 
at  Cork  University  College, — he  is  a  gentleman  of  somewhere  about 
seventy,  in  or  about  seventy  years  of  age,  essentially  quiet,  peace- 
ful, intellectual,  the  last  man  on  earth  to  injure  anything  or  any- 
body, or  wish  even  to  do  anything  or  anybody  any  harm.  The  pro- 
fessor lives,  or  lived  "at  that  time,  at  a  pretty  far  distance  from 
Cork.  He  lived  about  a  mile  or  a  mile  and  a  half  from  the  city. 
And  leaving  the  hotel, — of  course  all  tram  service  and  all  means 
of  conveyance  were  over  then  for  the  night,  he  had  to  walk  that 
distance.  On  his  way  to  his  home,  he  was,  without  any  prelimi- 
naries, without  any  threats  or  anything  being  said  to  him  by  his  as- 
sailant, he  was  set  upon  and  fired  at.  The  shot  hit  him, — at  all 
events  grazed  his  clothes;  but  very  fortunately  he  was  uninjured  on 
that  occasion.  That  was  on  the  night  of  Saint  Patrick's  Day.  It 
is  important  for  the  reason  that  I  shall  presently  explain,  inasmuch 
as  it  and  the  murder  of  the  Lord  Mayor,  which  took  place  two 
nights  afterwards,  really  marked,  I  think,  the  beginning  of  the 
phase  where  intimidation  and  arrests  merged  into  the  murder  period. 
And  I  think  that  the  reign  of  murders  and  shooting  and  outrage 
really  dates  from  there. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  when  you  say  it  dates  from 
there,  does  that  apply,  then,  to  all  of  Ireland,  or  principally  to 
Cork?  A.  Well,  to  Cork  principally,  sir,  but  to  a  large  extent  to 
Ireland;  inasmuch  as  while  there  had  been  before  that  certain  iso- 
lated cases  of  murder  and  personal  attack,  it  is  since  then  that  mur- 
der and  attack  have  become  daily  processes,  and  have  become  ad- 
mittedly part  of  the  British  policy  in  Ireland. 

Q.  You  say  that  began  on  the  night  of  the  17th  of  March,  1920? 
A.  Well,  it  was  evident  after  that.  I  have  these  dates  marked  in 
my  own  mind  as  far  as  the  beginning  of  the  campaign  of  murder  is 
concerned. 

NIGHTLY  RAIDS,  LOOTING  AND  DESTRUCTION 
OF  PROPERTY 

Q.  Before  you  go  into  that  situation,  I  think  the  Commission 
would  like  to  have  general  conditions  expressed  better  than  they 
have  been.  What  is  the  general  sense  of  security  of  property  in 
Ireland,  say  from  the  beginning  of  January,  1920,  to  date?  A.  0, 
very  little  or  none,  sir.  Raids,  particularly  on  business  premises, 
have  been  of  daily  if  not  nightly  occurrence.  In  almost  every  case 
where  a  raid  takes  place,  the  property  in  the  establishment  is  looted. 
There  would  be  in  Cork  alone,  apart  from  the  premises  that  have 
been   absolutely  wiped  out  by  fire,  there  would  be  at   least,  at  a 


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very  moderate  estimate,  fifty  establishments  that  have  been  at- 
tacked and  looted,  though  not  absolutely  destroyed.  In  some  cases 
attempts  were  made  to  destroy  them,  which  were  unsuccessful.  In 
other  cases,  no  attempts  were  made  to  destroy  them. 

Q.  That  raiding  and  looting  is  conducted  by  whom?  A.  It  is 
conducted  by  the  forces  of  the  British  Crown,  mainly  by  the  British 
police  force. 

Q.  And  it  exists  in  all  parts  of  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  in  all  parts 
of  Ireland. 

Q.  And  have  these  conditions  existed  constantly  since  this  period 
commenced?     A.     0,  yes,  yes. 

ASSUMPTION  OF  ADMINISTRATIVE  DUTIES  BY 
REPUBLICAN  PARTY 

During  that  period  it  was  that  the  change  took  place  in  general 
administration  in  Ireland.  And  the  Republican  Party,  which  until 
then  had  worked  more  or  less  quietly  as  a  political  party,  assumed, 
as  a  result  of  the  elections  which  took  place  in  that  year,  control  of 
public  administration. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Now,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  I  think  it  might  be  well 
to  go  on  and  explain  in  detail  just  what  you  mean  by  that.  In  the 
first  place,  what  organizations  do  you  refer  to?  And  just  what  were 
these  elections?  A.  The  first  election  that  affected  the  Republican 
Party  in  taking  charge  of  administration  was  the  general  parlia- 
mentary election  which  took  place  in  1918.  The  effect  and  useful- 
ness of  that  was  largely  negatived  by  the  fact  that  while  a  Repub- 
lican Parliament  had  been  elected,  the  municipal  governments,  the 
different  administrative  boards, — all  the  public  machinery  of  the 
country, — were  not,  in  many  cases,  Republican,  and  had  not  been 
elected  on  the  Republican  ticket.  So  that  the  full  efficacy  of  the 
return  of  the  Republican  Party  to  Parliament  depended  largely 
upon  and  really  had  to  wait  until  the  election  of  the  local  or  minor 
bodies,  inasmuch  as  it  was  only  through  the  local  bodies,  which 
control  taxation  to  a  large  extent,  that  the  Republican  Government 
could  function. 

Q.  Will  you  describe  what  you  mean  by  the  local  bodies,  and 
what  they  do,  and  what  part  of  the  government  they  take  the  place 
of  in  Ireland?  A.  Well,  in  the  case  of  the  cities,  the  corporations 
do  all  the  work  of  city  management.  They  levy  rates  on  the  citi- 
zens; they  collect  the  rate  on  the  annual  estimate  for  the  city  ad- 
ministration; they  are  in  charge  of  the  public  cleansing,  the  public 
lighting,  the  water  works,  the  fire  brigade,  and  all  those  services. 
They  are  the  ordinary  part  of  the  administration  of  the  city.  In 
the  county,  in  addition  to  these,  they  control,  of  course,  the  roads, 
the  erection  and  maintenance  of  roads  and  all  public  utilities,  and 


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generally  all  constructive  work  in  the  county.  The  county  council, 
of  course,  levies  its  own  rate  on  the  county,  just  as  the  city  council 
does  on  the  city. 

Q.  Has  every  county  its  own  county  council?  A.  Every  county 
has  its  own  county  council,  with  the  exception  of  Tipperary,  where 
there  is  a  division  of  the  county,  and  they  have  two  county  councils. 

Q.  Then  they  have  a  county  council  as  distinguished  from  the 
city  government?  A.  Yes,  the  county  council  in  charge  of  the 
government  of  the  county,  and  the  city  council  in  charge  of  the 
government  of  the  city. 

Q.  These  bodies  are  elected?  A.  The  bodies  themselves  are. 
The  council  or  corporation  are  all  elected  by  the  people.  And  then 
the  first  meeting  after  they  assemble  after  election,  the  chairman  or 
the  mayor,  as  the  case  may  be,  is  elected  by  the  members  of  the 
council  or  corporation. 

Q.  How  often  are  the  elections  held?  A.  Triennially, — every 
three  years. 

Q.  And  they  are  elected  under  what  statute?  A.  Under  the 
Local  Government  Act. 

Q.     And  the  last  election  was  held  when?     A.     June  of  1920. 

LOCAL    GOVERNMENT    BODIES    DECLARE 
ALLEGIANCE  TO  THE  REPUBLIC 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  were  reaching  the  point  that  it  was  the 
local  governments  that  had  to  be  changed  before  the  Republican 
Parliament  could  act.  Will  you  take  the  narrative  up  from  there? 
A.  Yes.  The  power  of  the  Republican  Government  depended  upon 
the  local  bodies.  And  consequently  all  of  the  work  of  the  Repub- 
lican Government  which  depended  on  the  local  bodies  was  largely 
suspended  until  the  election  of  the  local  bodies  came  along.  These 
took  place,  as  far  as  cities  and  the  urban  councils  are  concerned, 
not  until  the  last  of  December,  1919.  The  countv  council  elections 
did  not  take  place  until  May,  and  the  results  were  not  declared 
until  June  of  1920.  Upon  these  local  elections  taking  place,  the 
public  bodies  all  over  Ireland,  the  vast  majority  of  them,  returned 
Republican  candidates,  and  at  the  first  meeting  of  the  new  bodies 
resolutions  were  passed  severing  connection  with  the  English  Local 
Government  Board,  which  until  then  had  maintained  connection,  on 
behalf  of  the  British  Government,  with  all  the  local  government 
bodies  in  Ireland,  and  which  exercised  a  veto  over  all  their  trans- 
actions. The  minutes,  for  instance,  of  every  local  government  body 
had  to  be  submitted  to  the  English  Local  Government  Board.  The 
link  was  really  fastened  by  a  system  of  grants.  The  Local  Govern- 
ment Board  gave  to  every  local  body  a  certain  grant  during  the  year, 
depending  upon  the  size  of  the  body  and  the  area  administered  by 


725 

the  body,  running  in  some  cases  to  as  much  as  one  hundred  fifty 
thousand  pounds.  These  -ranis,  of  course,  were  slight  refunds  of 
the  moneys  extracted  through  taxation  by  the  English  Government, 
being  refunded  in  the  aid  of  local  taxation.  The  new  bodies  at  the 
first  meeting  severed  connection  with  the  Local  Government  Board 
and  pledged  their  allegiance  to  Dail  Eireann,  the  Republican  Gov- 
ernment. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Was  the  Local  Government  Board  that  you 
speak  of  the  English  Local  Government  Board?  A.  The  English 
Local  Government  Board,  yes. 

Q.     There  was  one  for  all  England  and  Ireland?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  men  are  appointed  to  it  by  the  Imperial  Government? 
A.  Yes.  That  is  it.  Officials  all  over  Ireland  maintained  connec- 
tions with  the  Local  Government  Board. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  These  officials  on  the  local  bodies  were  all 
nationalists?     A.     Oh.  yes.  the  great  majority  of  them  are. 

Q.  And  they  severed  connection  with  the  English  Government? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  and  pledged  allegiance  to  the  Republic  of  Ireland,  and 
declared,  as  part  of  the  resolution,  that  all  communications  which 
heretofore  had  passed  between  themselves  and  the  English  Local 
Government  Board  shall  henceforth  be  forwarded  to  Dail   Eireann. 

Q.  It  was  sort  of  another  declaration  of  independence?  A. 
Well,  virtually  that,  of  course,  as  well  as  a  declaration  of  allegiance 
to  the  Republican  Government. 

Q.     How7  many   counties  are  there  in   Ireland?      A.     Thirty-two. 

Q.  How  many  county  councils  have  expressed  allegiance  to  the 
Republican  Government  of  Ireland?     A.     Twenty-nine. 

Q.  And  they  were  the  elected  county  councils  at  the  last  general 
election  under  the  statute?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

PROPORTIONAL     REPRESENTATION     LAW 
DECREASES  REPUBLICAN  MAJORITY 

I  might  add  that  the  last  elections  in  Ireland,  both  the  county 
council  elections  and  the  city  elections — the  corporation  elections — 
were  held  under  a  new  system  of  election  laws,  under  proportional 
representation.  The  English  Government  decided  that  the  elections 
in  Ireland,  and  only  in  Ireland,  would  be  conducted  under  the  sys- 
tem of  proportional  representation.  The  system,  of  course,  is  as  a 
system  absolutely  fair;  and  it  was  immediately  agreed  to  and  ac- 
cepted as  fair  by  the  Republican  authorities,  including  the  president 
of  the  Republic.  But  while  admitting,  as  a  system,  it  was  absolutelv 
fair,  inasmuch  as  it  gives  to  minorities  representation  to  which,  of 
course,  they  are  justly  entitled,  and  which  they  would  not  have 
secured  under  the  old  system,  at  the  same  time  it  was  unfortunate, 
from  the  Republican  point  of  view,  for  the  moment,   inasmuch  as 


726 

the  majority  of  representatives  returned  who  would  have  been  re- 
turned under  the  former  system  of  plain  voting  was  much  reduced 
by  proportional  representation.  The  representation  of  quite  the 
largest  part  of  Ireland  would  have  been  absolutely  and  solely  Re- 
publican had  the  elections  taken  place  under  the  old  system  of  plain, 
straight  representation.  But  the  whole  Republican  organization, 
following  the  declaration  of  its  leaders,  accepted  the  new  system 
and  accepted  the  fact  that  minorities  are  entitled  to  a  representation. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Am  I  not  right  in  thinking,  Mr.  Lord 
Mayor,  that  you  made  considerable  gains  in  Ulster  by  this  system? 
A.  Undoubtedly.  Undoubtedly.  I  would  like  to  make  it  plain  that 
the  system  as  a  system  is  absolutely  fair.  But  it  came  along  at  this 
particular  time  where  the  Republican  majority  would  have  been 
much  larger  if  it  had  not  been  for  the  new  system. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  If  you  had  had  an  election  like  we  have 
here,  it  would  have  meant  that  minorities  would  not  have  been 
represented,  and  that  with  the  exception  of  Ulster,  it  would  have 
been  unanimous?     A.     Absolutely.     Absolutely. 

BRITISH  ATTACK  OFFICIALS  AND  WITHDRAW 
GRANTS  TO  PARALYZE  LOCAL  GOVERNMENT 

Having  severed  their  connection  with  the  English  Local  Govern- 
ment Board  and  taken  up  with  the  Republican  Local  Government 
Board,  the  local  bodies  in  Ireland  were  faced  with  considerable 
difficulties.  First  of  all,  practically  every  man  who  went  into  the 
administration  on  these  elections  was  a  young  man.  Of  course  in 
Ireland,  as  a  result  of  the  Republican  movement,  we  claim  that  the 
day  of  the  young  man  has  come.  And  in  all  these  boards  and  in 
all  these  bodies,  where  heretofore  possibly  young  men  would  not 
have  been  very  numerous,  they  are  now  practically  entirely  manned 
by  young  men.  Well,  these  men,  owing  to  the  circumstances,  would 
have  needed  absolute  freedom  for  application  to  their  duties  on 
these  administrative  bodies  to  insure  success.  The  fact  was  that  the 
existing  scheme,  which  I  have  already  described,  of  indiscriminate 
arrests  and  raids  became  intensified  and  became  more  particularly 
directed  against  these  particular  men  who  had  been  elected  on  these 
public  boards.  The  result  was  that  these  men  who  would  have 
needed  to  devote  all  their  time  and  energy  and  attention  in  the  first 
place  to  a  study  of  their  duties,  and  in  the  second  place  to  the  dis- 
charge of  them,  had  simply  to  do  the  best  they  could  while  trying 
to  dodge  and  avoid  the  attentions  of  the  forces  of  the  Government. 
The  result  was  that  they  were  not  able  to  give  as  effective  service, 
from  the  administrative  point  of  view,  as  they  would  have.  This 
was  and  still  is  true,  and  is  being  intensified  by  the  fact  that  the 


727 

English  Government,  realizing  of  course  that  the  mere  existence  and 
function  of  these  public  bodies  as  part  of  the  Republican  machinery 
and  system  of  government  is  one  of  the  most  conclusive  proofs  of 
the  solidarity  of  the  country  and  of  its  suitability  for  freedom,  have 
deliberately  sought  out  a  way  in  which  to  prevent  these  bodies  from 
working  smoothly  and  from  maintaining  the  administration  of  the 
country.  The  great  blow  which  they  struck  in  that  direction  was  the 
withholding  of  the  grants  from  the  public  bodies.  They  issued  a 
ukase  withholding  all  the  grants,  and  consequently,  of  course,  doing 
all  they  could  to  torpedo  the  whole  system  of  public  administration 
which  they  themselves  were  responsible  for  erecting.  They  simply 
notified  the  public  bodies  that  the  money  which  the  public  bodies 
were  relying  on  from  them,  which  had  been  coming  on  year  after 
year  and  had  been  included  by  them  in  their  estimates  at  the  begin- 
ning of  the  year,  would  not  be  paid;  and  sought  in  that  way  to  make 
it  impossible  for  the  public  bodies  to  function. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  You  say  a  ukase.  You  mean  an  order? 
A.  Yes,  purely  an  order  issued  to  each  public  body.  Well,  that 
situation  has  existed  for  some  time.  It  is  difficult  to  overcome  that. 
The  question  of  dealing  with  it,  of  course,  will  principally  arise 
this  month  or  next  when  the  striking  of  the  estimates  of  the  public 
bodies  all  over  Ireland  for  the  new  year  will  come  on.  Two  things, 
of  course,  would  seem  to  be  obviously  necessary  as  ways  out  of  the 
difficulty,  one  being  that  the  public  services  will  to  some  extent,  at 
the  commencement  at  least,  have  to  be  curtailed;  possibly  some  of 
the  administrative  services.  I  hope  that  this  difficulty  may  be  gotten 
over  without  curtailing  the  public  services,  but  I  am  afraid,  giving 
my  own  opinion  of  the  city  bodies,  I  am  afraid  that  curtailment 
will  be  a  necessity.  The  other  thing  will  be  increasing  the  rates. 
The  rates,  of  course,  will  have  to  be  increased,  because  the  grants 
have  been  withdrawn. 

CANCELLATION  OF  GRANTS  INJURES  HOSPITALS, 

ASYLUMS,  EDUCATION,  AND   NECESSARY 

PUBLIC  SERVICES 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  will  you  explain  what  you  mean 
by  the  grants?  A.  The  grants  given  by  the  English  Government  to 
local  bodies,  which  were  really  a  refund  of  the  money  in  the  shape 
of  taxes  which  the  English  take  from  the  country  year  after  vear. 

Q.  Now.  the  purpose  of  those  grants  is  what?  A.  To  carry  on 
public  administration. 

Q.  It  means  hospitals?  A.  Yes,  certain  grants  for  hospitals, 
certain  grants  for  roads,  certain  grants  for  sanitary  purposes,  in  the 
city  for  the  sanitary  fund,  and  grants  for  education — technical  edu- 
cation— and  many  other  services  of  that  kind. 


728 

Q.  For  lunatic  asylums  and  poorhouses?  A.  Yes,  and  hospitals 
as  well. 

Q.  Now,  they  have  been  withdrawn  by  the  British  Government? 
A.     They  have  been  withdrawn  by  the  British  Government. 

Q.  Yes.  So  that  today  the  appropriations  heretofore  made  by 
the  British  Government  for  these  grants,  for  the  maintenance  of 
hospitals  and  poorhouses,  have  been  withdrawn?  A.  That  is  so. 
The  situation  arising  out  of  that  is  just  beginning  to  become  effective 
in  Cork.  Under  English  law  each  public  body  and  institution  must 
have  a  bank  for  its  funds.  The  bank  which  had  been  acting  as 
treasurer  for  the  Cork  union  workers  had  communicated  with  the 
Board  the  day  before  I  left  Cork  that  they  could  not  see  their  way 
clear  to  honor  their  checks  any  more.  I,  with  some  other  men  of 
the  city,  had  an  interview  with  the  bank  manager,  and  he  went  all 
over  this  ground  which  I  am  now  trying  to  make  clear  to  you,  this 
danger  which  threatens  administration  in  Ireland.  He  dealt  with 
the  cancellation  of  these  grants  by  the  British  Government,  and  he 
wanted  to  know,  naturally,  as  a  business  man,  where  the  deficit  was 
going  to  come  from. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  This  matter  is  rather  new  to  Ameri- 
cans, and  we  are  rather  anxious  for  careful  information.  What 
proportion  of  the  revenues  of  Cork  are  derived  from  these  grants,  as 
against  local  taxation  or  rates?  A.  The  proportion  in  any  case 
would  not  be  very  great.  In  Cork  the  city  administration  costs 
roughly  about  two  hundred  twenty  thousand  pounds.  The  grants  in 
the  city  are  fortunately  very,  very  small.  They  amount  only  to  ten 
thousand. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  You  refer  to  pounds?  A.  Pounds  sterling,  not 
dollars.  In  the  counties  the  situation  is  much  worse,  because  the 
main  grants  are  for  road  purposes.  Cork  is  by  far  the  largest 
county  in  Ireland;  consequently  Cork  County  is  the  largest  admin- 
istrative body  of  Ireland.  Cork  County  covers  roughly  one-tenth  of 
the  whole  country.  In  Cork  County  the  grant  from  the  English 
Government  was  one  hundred  forty  thousand  pounds. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Out  of  what  proportion  of  the  total? 
A.     The  total  would  be  about  three  hundred  fifty  thousand. 

Q.     Almost  half?     A.     Yes,  not  quite  half. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  local  taxation  or  rates.  Will  you  explain  to 
us  what  forms  of  taxation  in  Ireland  are  local  and  what  forms  of 
taxation  are  general?  A.  The  local  public  body,  the  corporation 
or  county  council,  in  considering  its  estimate  as  its  estimate  of 
expenditure  for  the  year,  strikes  a  rate  for  the  city  or  the  people  of 
the  county  in  accordance  with  the  value  of  their  holdings,  to  make 
a  rate  which  will  cover  their  expenditure  for  the  year. 

Q.  Is  local  taxation  on  real  estate  only,  or  on  houses?  A.  On 
both. 


729 

Q.  Is  it  on  personal  property, — stoeks  and  bonds  and  income? 
A.     No,  not  on  personal  property.     On  real  estate  and  houses  only. 

SURPLUS  TAXATION   OF   TWENTY    MILLION 

POUNDS   TAKEN    FROM    IRELAND    BY 

BRITISH  GOVERNMENT 

Q.  What  is  the  form  of  general  taxation?  A.  In  Ireland,  as 
far  as  the  British  Government  is  concerned,  the  only  tax  collected 
directly  is  income  taxes, — practically  the  only  main  tax. 

Q.  Do  you  have  also  excise  taxes?  A.  Yes,  there  are  a  few 
minor  taxes.  There  is  the  dog  tax.  for  instance,  and  the  excise 
duties.  But  the  main  tax  collected  directly  is  the  income  tax,  or 
was  until  a  year  ago. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now  is  that  where  the  British  Government 
gets  this  money  that  it  later  refunds?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Where  does  it  get  the  balance?     A.     The  balance  is  indirect. 

Q.  The  money  that  the  British  Government  spends  as  a  refund 
all  comes  from  the  people  of  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  it  all  comes  from 
the  people  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Now  that  tax  still  continues,  and  the  British  Government  is 
still  collecting  that  tax?     A.     As  far  as  possible. 

Q.  And  has  ceased  to  turn  any  of  it  back  to  Ireland?  A. 
Quite  so. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  How  far  has  the  movement  gone  to 
impede  or  refuse  to  pay  the  British  taxes?  How  far  has  that 
movement  gone?  A.  Well,  it  is,  generally  speaking,  very,  very 
difficult  for  the  British  Government  to  collect  taxes  any  more  at  all. 
The  collection  of  the  income  tax  has  practically  ceased  since  last 
Easter.  At  that  time  the  income  tax  offices  almost  all  over  the 
country  were  burned  out. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  If  the  English  Government  is  not  collecting, 
naturally  you  could  not  expect  them  to  pay.  A.  Well,  that,  of 
course,  is  outside  of  their  local  government  machinery.  Even  if  they 
never  collected  an  income  tax,  it  would  not  hurt  them  to  make  us  a 
little  return  from  our  own  moneys.  For  English  figures  themselves 
show  that,  even  allowing  for  the  expenses  of  her  administration  in 
Ireland,  an  administration  which  is  largely  of  unnecessary  expenses 
in  order  to  maintain  her  huge  army  of  unnecessary  officials,  and  thus 
to  obtain  her  moral  grip,  or  immoral  grip,  on  the  country;  in  spite 
of  all  that  unnecessary  expenditure,  her  own  figures  show  that,  in 
addition  to  paying  all  her  expenses  in  Ireland,  she  still  has  a  huge 
balance  to  transfer  to  the  Imperial  Treasury.  Her  last  balance, 
according  to  her  own  figures,  is  about  twenty  million. 


730 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Twenty  mil  I  ion  pounds?  A.  Twenty 
million  pounds. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  These  laxes  also  include  all  indirect  taxation? 
A.  Yes,  on  sugar,  tea,  and  the  excise. 

Q.      These  are  still  collected?      A.     They  are  still  collected. 

Q.  What  is  the  income  tax  in  Ireland?  A.  There  are  two  rales, 
the  lower  rale  of  three  and  eight,  and  the  six  shilling  rale. 

Q.  That  is  six  shillings  to  the  pound?  A.  Six  shillings  to  the 
pound. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  When  you  mean  the  expenses  of  the 
English  administration,  that  includes  Belfast  and  all  of  the  country? 
A.    Yes,  Belfast  and  all  of  the  country. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  As  I  understand  it,  the  English  claim 
is  that  this  additional  expense  is  a  proper  contribution  to  the  Empire 
because  of  the  protection  that  the  Empire  gives  Ireland.  A.  Yes, 
yes. 

Q.  The  Ulster  delegation  explained  that  to  us,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor. 
A.  Yes.  It  shows  that  the  general  view  of  the  English  lack  of 
humor  is  not  correct. 

ENGLAND   WITHDRAWS   GRANTS  TO   CRIPPLE 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

The  reason  I  deal  with  this  is  that  England,  I  am  quite  sure,  is 
awaiting  the  results  of  her  withdrawal  of  the  grants  to  see  if  she 
can  get  anything  that  will  enable  her  to  make  a  case,  first  of  all  to 
the  people  of  Ireland  themselves,  and  next  to  the  world,  to  show 
that  the  Republican  administration  in  Ireland  has  been  a  failure; 
to  show  that  the  Republicans  who  have  been  elected  to  administer 
the  country  have  been  unable  to  do  so,  while  she  herself  has  made 
it  all  but  impossible.  It  is  not  impossible,  for  in  spite  of  the  diffi- 
culties that  she  has  put  in  our  way,  we  are  getting  ahead.  But  she 
has  done  everything  that  she  can  do  to  make  it  possible  to  say 
afterwards  that  the  Republicans  cannot  administer  their  own  coun- 
try. I  say  that  now  so  that,  if  later  on  any  slight  collapse  does 
come — I  say  it  here  on  account  of  the  possibilities  of  the  situation; 
and  if  that  should  happen,  and  England  should  say  that  these  Re- 
publicans in  Ireland  are  not  administering  their  own  country,  that 
they  have  failed  to  administer  it  where  all  the  bodies  before  have 
administered  it, — I  say  this  so  that  you  people  in  America  will 
understand. 


73] 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  there  any  limit  to  the  rales  which 
the  cities  and  the  county  councils  can  levy?  There  is  in  America 
certain  limitations.  Do  you  have  them,  or  can  you  increase  your 
rales  as  far  as  you  like  yourselves?  A.  Well,  there  are  in  some  ol 
the  cities,  hut  the  county  rates  are  open,  and  in  some  of  the  cities 
the  same  thing  applies.  But  that  question  will  not  arise,  because 
the  regulation  restricting  the  rale  is  a  British  one,  and  while  we  have 
so  far  acted  in  comity  with  English  regulations  and  rules,  simply 
as  a  guide  and  because  it  obviated  the  necessity  of  dialling  them 
ourselves,  }et  when  a  situation  arises  where  the  rates  must  be  ad- 
vanced, and  British  law  says  they  cannot  be  advanced,  why,  we  will, 
of  course,  advance  them.  We  will  not  be  bound  by  such  a  restric- 
tion as  we  would  under  British  law.  If  we  must,  we  will  advance 
them. 

PEOPLE  PAY  RATES  TO  REPUBLICAN  BODIES 

There  is  another  thing  i  would  like  to  mention  to  you  in  that  con- 
nection, and  that  is  that  for  the  past  year,  while  the  Republican 
bodies  have  been  in  power  and  administering  these  public  bodies, 
and  while  England  has  been  carrying  on  her  campaign  against 
them  and  making  it  impossible  to  meet,  as  far  as  possible,  1  have 
never,  either  in  regard  to  the  city  or  the  county  of  Cork,  I  have 
never  heard  of  one  case,  one  instance,  where  there  has  been  a  re- 
fusal by  anybody  to  pay  their  rates  on  the  ground  that  the  bodies 
are  Republican.  The  rates  have  been  paid  as  regularly  and  as  fully 
as  they  ever  have  been  before. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  In  other  words,  you  mean  to  say  thai  in  twenty- 
nine  counties  of  Ireland  where  the  Republican  Government  is  func- 
tioning, that  the  taxes  are  paid  regularly  and  wholly  by  the  people 
as  much  as  before?     A.     Absolutely. 

Q.  And  those  taxes  are  used  for  what?  A.  Purely  for  local 
purposes. 

Q.  What  are  those  purposes?  A.  Roads,  public  baths,  hos- 
pitals, lire  brigades,  education,  and  so  on. 

Q.  So  that  Republican  officials  are  carrying  out  the  same  duties 
as  were  carried  out  prior  to  the  formation  of  the  Republic?  A.  0, 
yes,  absolutely. 

Q.  And  the:  people  are  paying  their  taxes  the  same  as  before? 
A.     Quite. 

Q.  And  irrespective  of  political  affiliation?  A.  Absolutely.  I 
have  never  heard,  as  I  said,  of  one  case  in  the  city  or  county  of 
Cork  of  a  refusal  to  pay  rales  to  Republican  bodies. 


732 

REPUBLICAN  POLICE  AND  JUDGES  WORK  IN 
CONSTANT  FEAR  OF  ARREST 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  In  your  mention  of  these  bodies,  you  made 
no  mention  of  police  or  law  and  order  functions.  They  are  not 
under  the  control  of  the  city  or  county  councils?  A.  No,  but  I 
was  going  to  say  something  about  it.  Under  the  English  regula- 
tions and  law,  no  public  body  whatever  had  any  control  over  the 
police  force.  But  since  the  establishment  of  the  Republican  Par- 
liament, and  especially  since  the  assumption  of  administrative  con- 
trol by  these  local  bodies, — that  has  been  the  period,  of  course,  in 
which  the  Republic  has  gradually  begun  to  function  in  all  its  de- 
partments, with  the  result  that  the  police  force  was  got  under  way, 
and  works  effectively  and  efficiently,  though  of  course  only  to  a 
limited  extent,  because,  like  every  other  body  in  Ireland,  in  every 
act  that  they  do  in  the  public  welfare  they  are  liable  to  arrest. 
They  and  the  courts  have  begun  to  function  and  have  functioned 
for  the  last  twelve  months,  the  great  difficulty  being  the  difficulty  of 
fixing  sittings  with  any  degree  of  security,  especially  where  there  is 
anything  like  a  criminal  matter  involved,  because  there  is  a  danger 
of  the  place  of  the  court's  sitting  being  divulged  and  the  arbitrators 
being  arrested. 

SAFETY  OF  UNARMED  DUBLIN  POLICE 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  To  return  for  a  moment  to  the  police 
force,  we  have  had  testimony  here  of  some  police  force,  either  in 
Dublin  or  Cork,  as  I  recall  it,  requesting  that  their  firearms  be 
taken  away,  that  they  be  disarmed,  and  that  none  of  them  have  been 
shot  since  that  time.  Was  that  a  municipal  police  force?  A.  That 
was  the  Dublin  Metropolitan  Police. 

Q.  That  was  not  a  local  police  force?  A.  No,  no,  no!  It  was 
part  of  the  general  police  force,  but  it  was  controlled  directly  by 
Dublin  Castle. 

Q.  But  the  city  does  not  control  them?  A.  0,  no.  Although 
they  are  paid  by  the  Dublin  corporation,  the  Dublin  corporation 
has  no  more  control  over  them  than  we  do  in  Cork. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Who  does  select  them?  A.  The  Govern- 
ment, the  British  Government. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Will  you  tell  us  about  that  incident  of  their 
being  disarmed  at  their  own  request?  A.  For  a  considerable  time, 
or  for  a  number  of  years — two  or  three  years,  while  the  situation 
has  been  very  bad,  they  had  the  forces  all  over  Ireland — the  police 
forces — turn  out  for  patrol  duty  and  every  other  duty  with  rifles 
and  revolvers  and  so  forth.  And  the  members  of  the  Dublin  Metro- 
politan Police  held  a  meeting  (of  course,  I  have  no  personal  knowl- 
edge, as  you  understand,  of  this  meeting),  but  at  this  meeting  they 


733 

declared  that  thev  considered  that  the  safety  of  their  lives  was  very 
much  endangered  by  the  fact  that  they  carried  arms,  that  it  was  en- 
tirely due  to  the  fact  that  they  carried  arms,  and  that  the  carrying 
of  arms  was  not  desirable  or  necessary,  that  their  function  as  a 
police  force  should  be  entirely  as  a  peace  force,  and  that  arms  were 
not  necessary.  And  they  refused  on  these  grounds  that  they  should 
carry  arms  any  more.  I  don't  know  how  it  was,  but  their  demands 
were  granted.  They  go  around  in  Dublin  without  carrying  arms  in 
any  way,  and  they  have  not  been  molested  since  then. 

There  was  a  further  meeting  of  the  auxiliary  force  in  Dublin.  It 
was  reported  in  the  press, — I  don't  know  how  true  it  was,  but  the 
report  was  that  they  were  protesting  on  the  same  grounds,  and  they 
held  a  meeting  and  said  they  did  not  see  why  they  should  be  forced 
to  carry  military  weapons.  And  a  commissioner  was  sent  to  inter- 
view them,  and  listened  to  them,  and  said,  "Your  case  will  be  con- 
sidered, and  we  will  see  what  we  can  do  in  the  way  of  making  ar- 
rangements." On  this  assurance  they  returned  to  their  work  under 
the  old  conditions,  and  nothing  further  was  done,  for  certainly  no 
change  has  been  made. 

COMPOSITION  OF  CROWN  FORCES  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  When  you  speak  of  the  auxiliary  po- 
lice what  body  do  you  refer  to?  A.  The  auxiliary  police  are  a 
special  police  force  created  about  a  year  ago,  shortly  after  the  end 
of  the  war.  They  are  a  body  of  ex-officers  created  into  this  special 
police  force  known  as  the  auxiliary  police  force.  They  rank  as 
sergeants,  all  of  them,  and  are  known  as  "pound-a-day  men"  be- 
cause they  are  paid  a  pound  a  day;  and  they  are  also  known  all 
over  Ireland  as  the  cadets. 

Q.  They  are  a  distinct  force,  then,  from  the  Black-and-Tans? 
A.  Yes,  the  Black-and-Tans  are  supposed  to  be  a  part  of  the  ordi- 
nary Royal  Irish  Constabulary,  men  recruited  from  England  mainly, 
— all  but  entirely  recruited  from  England.  Men  who  had  fought 
in  the  war  and  were  on  for  demobilization  reenlisted  for  police  ser- 
vice in  Ireland. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  what  was  the  force  ordinarily 
of  the  R.  I.  C.  up  to,  say,  three  years  ago?  A.  Ten  thousand  was 
the  ordinary  rating. 

Q.  What  is  the  number  today?  A.  That  I  could  not  give  you, 
except  that  I  don't  think  it  would  be  anywhere  near  that  number. 
The  old  R.  I.  C.  as  such  was  depleted  considerably  by  resignations. 
A  great  many  of  them  have  resigned;  and  of  course,  it  was  to  sup- 
ply the  vacancies  created  by  these  resignations  that  the  Black-and- 
Tans  were  recruited,  as  well  as,  of  course,  to  carry  out  the  particular 
duties  that  they  have  since  then  been  carrying  out  in  Ireland,  and 
which  they  could  not,  I  presume,  rely  on  Irishmen  to  do. 


734 

Q.  Are  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  reeruited  from  Irishmen 
today,  or  Englishmen?  A.  0,  no,  from  Englishmen.  The  R.  I.  C. 
today  is  entirely  recruited  from  England. 

UNIONISTS  ACKNOWLEDGE  REPUBLICAN 
OFFICIALS 

Q.  This  matter  of  taxation  I  want  to  get  clear  on  the  record  be- 
cause it  is  very  important.  You  say  that  in  twenty-nine  counties  of 
Ireland  that  are  under  the  Republican  Government,1  that  the  Union- 
ists in  those  counties  pay  taxes  to  the  Republican  officials?  A. 
Well,  of  course  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  give  evidence  only  of  my 
own  personal  knowledge.  I  know  that  Cork  eity  and  county  has 
found  in  the  collection  of  the  rates  that  no  objection  has  been  made 
by  anybody.  And  I  also  know  of  no  such  objection  in  any  other 
county,  and  I  would  have  seen  or  heard  of  it  if  it  had  been  made. 
I  cannot  say  it  on  my  own  personal  knowledge,  but  I  feel  quite 
sure  that  it  did  not  take  place  or  I  would  have  heard  about  it. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  Unionists  have  acknowledged  the  Repub- 
lican officials  in  all  these  twenty-nine  counties?  A.  That  is  quite 
true,  sir,  seeing  that  administration  is  being  carried  on  as  usual. 

EFFICIENT  ADMINISTRATION  HAMPERED  BY 
REPEATED  RAIDS  AND  ARRESTS 

Q.  To  what  extent  has  this  administration  been  affected  by  the 
military  occupancy?  What  have  you  been  able  to  do?  A.  When 
the  Republican  Government  took  over  these  bodies,  there  were  in 
many  of  these  bodies  bad  traditions.  There  was  a  tradition  of  ex- 
pensiveness,  of  unnecessary  expenditures.  And  the  Republican 
Party  went  in  and  made  the  fact  known  in  advance  that  they  were 
going  in  not  only  to  carry  on  the  administration  along  Republican 
lines,  but  also  to  effect  economies  which  they  felt  could  be  effected 
in  the  administration.  I  have  no  doubt  whatever  from  my  own 
knowledge  of  them  that  in  many  cases  large  economies  could  be 
effected  by  the  local  bodies.  Of  course  even  under  the  circum- 
stances which  have  obtained,  large  economies  have  been  effected. 
But  if  our  people  were  free  to  meet  and  deal  with  these  questions 
in  the  orderly  way  that  they  should  be  dealt  with,  and  give  them 
time  and  attention,  a  great  deal  more  could  be  done  than  has  been 
done.  For  a  visit  to  the  city  hall  by  any  member  of  the  Republican 
administration,  by  myself  for  example,  a  visit  is  always  made  with 
the  conscious  fear  that  if  I  am  seen  going  in,  I  may  be  raided  within 

1  While  29  county  councils  have  declared  allegiance  to  the  Republican 
Government,  they  comprise  but  28  counties,  due  to  the  division  of  County 
Tipperary  into  North  and  South  Councils.  Hence,  there  is  a  total  of  33 
county  councils  in  Ireland  for  the  31  counties. 


735 

five  minutes  of  the  time.  Apart  from  the  difficulties  of  it,  the  fact 
that  men  in  public  bodies  are  in  that  state  of  mind  has  a  great  deal 
to  do  with  the  administration  of  their  public  duties, — the  feeling 
that  you  may  be  raided  within  five  minutes,  and  watching  to  see 
when  a  door  is  opened  or  a  window  is  opened.  It  is  impossible. — 
impossible  to  deal  with  these  matters  of  technical  administration  as 
vou  would  otherwise.  That  is  the  present  difficulty  in  administra- 
tion. The  result  is  that,  to  the  extent  that  it  has  been  impossible  for 
the  Republican  officials  to  supervise  these  matters,  the  administra- 
tion is  largely  in  the  hands  of  paid  officials. 

LORD  MAYOR  PERFORMS  DUTIES  "ON  THE  RUN" 

Q.  Take  your  own  case,  have  you  been  able  to  exercise  your 
function  as  Lord  Mayor?  A.  0,  yes,  I  have,  of  course.  I  have 
been  able  to  preside  at  a  good  many  meetings,  but  always  under 
these  circumstances :  for  instance,  when  a  meeting  of  the  corporation 
is  summoned  one  night,  the  meeting  may  pass  off  all  right;  and  the 
next  time  a  meeting  is  summoned,  the  word  gets  around  that  a  raid 
is  to  be  made  that  night,  and  then  the  question  is  to  decide  on  the 
men  who  will  be  able  to  go  to  the  meeting  and  the  men  who  will 
not.  You  have  to  study  the  men  who  may  in  safety  go  to  the  meet- 
ing and  will  not  be  arrested,  and  the  men  who  will.  In  that  situa- 
tion I  have  had  to  use  the  city  hall  as  little  as  possible  and  spend  as 
little  of  my  time  as  possible  there.  And  it  is  only  there,  of  course, 
that  I  could  attend  to  the  affairs  of  the  city  and  look  into  the  details 
of  administration.  With  the  exception  of  that,  I  have  moved  around 
the  city  without  a  break,  excepting  possibly  a  week  or  two  since  my 
election  as  Lord  Mayor.  While  in  the  city  of  Cork,  of  course  I 
move  around  carefully,  always  keeping  a  careful  look-out  for  un- 
welcome visitors;  and  of  course  at  night  moving  from  house  to 
house  in  the  way  that  all  men  in  Ireland  connected  with  the  move- 
ment do.  Only  in  this  way  and  to  this  extent  have  the  aldermen 
been  able  to  attend  to  their  duties  and  the  corporation  been  able  to 
function.  Meetings  of  the  corporation  have  been  cancelled  owing 
to  rumors  of  arrest,  but  only  in  one  case  has  a  raid  actuallv  taken 
place  while  the  corporation  was  in  session.  On  that  occasion,  fortu- 
nately for  myself,  I  happened  to  be  a  little  late.  When  I  arrived, 
about  five  minutes  after  the  time,  the  city  hall  was  already  sur- 
rounded and  the  raid  was  in  progress.  So  I  did  not  go  into  the 
meeting,  but  I  remained  outside  and  watched  events.  On  that  occa- 
sion the  members  were  all  searched,  but  no  one  was  arrested.  They 
were  probably  looking  for  a  certain  gentleman  who  was  not  pres- 
ent. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Tell  us  how  they  searched  the  members  of 
the  corporation?     A.     Why,  their  pockets  were  all  gone  through. 


736 

Q.  What  reason  did  ihey  give?  A.  O,  none  whatever.  There 
is  never  any  reason  given  for  raids  in  Ireland.  Sometimes  thev 
offer  excuses  for  them. 

\ 

DUBLIN  COUNCILLORS  ARRESTED  AND 
IMPRISONED 

That  also  happened  in  the  Dublin  corporation  while  the  cor- 
poration was  in  session,  with  the  difference  that  in  Dublin  a  half- 
dozen  were  arrested,  including  one  of  the  members  of  Parliament, 
Alderman  Stanes. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  will  you  be  good  enough  to 
describe  the  raid  that  you  refer  to?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  meeting 
was  held  in  the  Council  Hall  of  Dublin.  The  Lord  Mayor  was  pre- 
siding, and  the  minutes  had  not  yet  been  signed,  when  these  mili- 
tary officers  and  men  pushed  into  the  council  chamber.  Some  of 
them  stood  at  the  door,  others  went  to  the  side  of  the  hall,  and 
others  went  to  the  Lord  Mayor's  desk  and  asked  for  the  list  of 
attendance,  interrupting,  of  course,  the  proceedings  of  the  corpora- 
tion. They  took  the  list  of  attendance  and  went  through  it,  calling 
the  names,  and  as  they  got  to  the  particular  name  of  each  man 
wanted,  arresting  in  the  body  of  the  house  the  man  named,  until 
they  had  six  men  arrested,  whom  they  took  off  in  one  of  their  mili- 
tary cars.  I  have  not  seen  or  heard  since  what  was  done  with  them. 
I  presume  that  there  was  no  charge,  that  they  were  turned  into  one 
of  the  internment  camps  which   are  again  being  filled   in   Ireland. 

CORK  NINETY-FIVE  PER  CENT.  REPUBLICAN 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Tell  us  about  the  last  election  in 
Cork  that  was  on  the  proportional  representation  ballot.  How 
many  Unionists  were  elected  at  that  time?     A.     Two. 

Q.  That  is,  two  of  the  members  of  the  council  are  Unionists? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  population,  roughly?  A.  One  hundred  thou- 
sand. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  are  Republicans?  A.  At  least  95  per 
cent. 

Q.     95  per  cent?     A.     At  least. 

ATTEMPTED  MURDER  OF  CORK  ALDERMAN 

If  there  is  no  other  question  that  you  want  to  ask  on  that  par- 
ticular thing,  I  got  down  to  the  night  of  last  Saint  Patrick's  Day, 
when  Alderman  Professor  Stockley  was  attacked.  I  have  here  Al- 
derman Stockley's  own  deposition,  which  would  perhaps  be  clearer 
in  many  ways  than  my  narration  of  it.      (Reading)  : 


737 

Sitoni  Statement  of  Professor  W.  F.  P.  Stockley,  Tivoli,  Cork 

"On  St.  Patrick's  night,  Wednesday,  March  17.  1920,  I  'lined  with 
the  Lord  Mayor,  Alderman  Thomas  MacCurtain,  in  the  Metropole 
Hotel.  King-  Street  (now  MacCurtain  St.),  Cork.  1  left  at  midnight, 
and  walked  from  the  hotel  to  my  house  at  Tivoli,  the  first  station 
down  the  river  toward  what  was  then  Queenstown  and  now  Cove. 
There  is  no  train  going  at  this  hour,  nor  tram.  The  way  is  a  straight 
road,  a  distance  of  about  two  miles.  The  lower  part  of  this  road  is 
called  Lower  Glanmire  Road.  About  half-way  out  the  road  leaves  the 
town  behind;  on  the  right,  going  down,  is  the  river,  and  on  the  left 
the  railway. 

"Before  I  was  out  of  the  town.  1  met  a  policeman,  and  with  him 
presumably  a  detective  or  policeman  in  plain-clothes.  The  policeman, 
at  least  Inspector  Swanzy  afterward  told  me,  was  going  home  from 
the  police-barracks.     I  walked  along  on  this  Lower  Glanmire  Road. 

"Just  as  I  was  out  of  the  town,  two  men  passed  me  walking  quickly 
in  the  direction  I  was  going,  down  the  river.  They  were  talking  loudly, 
and  one  said  to  the  other,  "Then  you  will  have  to  go  home  alone,"  or 
words  to  that  effect.  I  recollect  thinking  that  the  voices  had  not  a 
Cork  accent.  I  noticed  nothing  further  about  the  men.  They  could 
have  turned  off  a  side  road,  or  could  have  walked  into  the  railway 
which  from  that  point  begins  to  run  parallel  to  the  road  to  Tivoli. 

"As  I  walked  on  I  began  to  hear  a  rustling  noise.  I  stopped  once  or 
twice  to  listen.  I  thought  it  was  the  river.  I  now  think  it  was  some- 
one running  along  the  railway  behind  the  wall  dividing  the  railway 
from  the  road.  As  I  walked  further  I  noticed  in  the  distance,  at  a 
curve  in  the  road  shaded  by  trees,  a  lamp  go  out,  and  soon  after  an- 
other lamp  go  out,  and  heard  a  breaking  of  glass.  I  judged  the  lamp- 
lighter was  putting  out  the  lights.  But  1  then  noticed  that,  a  little 
further  on,  at  the  bridge  just  before  Tivoli,  a  lamp  was  still  lighting. 
And  I  had  wondered  that  I  had  not  met  the  lamp-lighter. 

"By  that  time  I  heard  a  step  behind  me.  (  The  man  must  have  been 
secreted  in  a  public  lavatory  1  had  just  passed,  after  he  had  jumped 
over  the  railway  wall  before  lie  put  out  the  lamps,  of  which  one  was 
broken,  as  I  noticed  next  day. )  I  looked  round,  and  saw  a  rather 
tall  figure  in,  I  think,  a  soft  hat  and  a  yellow  water-proof,  walking 
with  a  firm,  trained  step.  I  judged  just  in  my  footsteps.  I  turned 
slightly  to  the  left  to  let  him  pass.  I  had  now  reached  the  spot 
darkened  by  the  putting  out  of  the  lamps;  and  the  instant  he  passed 
me,  he  faced  me,  his  back  to  Queenstown,  and  fired  from  a  revolver. 
He  paused  an  instant,  between  each  of  the  four  or  five  shots,  as  if  to 
place  his  bullets.  One  wounded  my  hand.  One  barely  grazed  my 
temple.  One  went  through  the  waterproof  cape  I  was  wearing.  I 
did  not  move.  The  notion  flashed  through  my  mind,  that  the  man 
fired  at  me  because  I  turned  aside;  as  if,  in  troublous  times,  he  was 
nervous  of  my  firing  at  him.  Then  I  had  the  thought  that  the  man 
was  mad.  After  firing,  lie  turned  his  back  on  me',  walking  on  in 
front — showing,  of  course,  that  he  did  not  think  I  was  armed,  and 
did  not  mistake  me  for  a  police  officer,  as  was  suggested  at  the  time 
by  some  who  would  fasten  the  action  on  one  of  the  people; — and  then 
I  spoke,  asking  what  he  was  doing  in  thus  firing  at  a  passer-by. 
Immediately  he  turned,  and  saying  nothing — he  had  not  spoken  at 
all — he  fired  the  last  shot,  which  went  through  my  coat,  waistcoat, 
trousers,  and  struck  a  safety  pin.  over  the  middle  of  the  stomach, 
which  was  bruised  black  and  blue.  But  the  bullet  did  not  go  into  the 
flesh. 

"I  reached  home  at  12:45  that  night.  I  told  no  one  about  the  shoot- 
ing. The  next  day,  Thursday,  I  asked  the  Lord  Mayor  if  I  should 
mention  the  matter.  In  the  afternoon  he  made  up  his  mind  it  was 
better  to  give  an  account  to  the  press.  I  gave  it,  in  the  office  of  the 
Cork  Examiner.  Two  policemen,  on  Friday  morning,  came  to  my 
house  and  took  down  my  deposition. 


738 

"On  that  Friday,  March  19,  about  midday,  Inspector  Swanzy  tele- 
phoned that  he  wished  to  see  me.  He  came  to  my  house  on  Friday 
afternoon.  He  inspected  the  bullet  marks  in  my  clothes.  He  remarked 
that :  'These  fellows  are  so  well  organized  that  it  is  very  hard  to  get 
at  them,'  and  he  repeatedly  assured  me  that  I  had  the  whole  force  of 
the  police  at  my  disposal.  He  asked  again  and  again  was  there  any- 
thing he  could  do  for  me,  to  protect  me.  And  then  he  advised  me 
not  to  be  out  of  doors  later  than  9:15  P.  M. ;  'That  would  be  8:15,' 
he  remarked,  'soon  with  summer  time.' 

"He  also  said  that  he  thought  the  Lord  Mayor  had  been  unfair  in 
saying,  as  to  this  shooting,  that  morning,  that  the  police  were  often 
not  where  they  were  wanted,  in  case  of  need.  Inspector  Swanzy  told 
me  that,  by  midnight,  the  police  would  have  left  the  beat  down  to 
Tivoli. 

"I  do  not  think  that  the  man  who  fired  at  me  resembled  either  of 
the  men  who  passed  me  as  I  left  the  town. 

"On  the  night  Friday-Saturday,  March  19-20,  the  Lord  Mayor  was 
murdered. 

"I  swear  and  affirm  that  the  above  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge  and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God ! 

(Signed)     "W.  F.  P.  Stockley. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  30  day  of  November,  1920. 

(Signed)     "Alfred   D.   Rahilly." 

I  might  say  that  nothing  could  more  clearly  or  more  definitely 
convey  to  you  the  kind  of  man,  the  type  of  man  that  Professor 
Stockley  is  than  the  fact  that,  returning  home  at  one  in  the  morning, 
being  faced  by  a  man  who  fired  four  or  five  bullets  at  him,  the  only 
action  of  the  Professor  was  to  say  to  him,  "Why  do  you  fire  at  a 
passer-by  like  that?"  For  a  time  after  that,  after  expressing  sym- 
pathy with  the  poor  professor,  it  was  kind  of  a  joke  among  Re- 
publican circles,  because  I  know  there  is  not  another  man  in  the 
island  of  Ireland  who  would  turn  to  his  assailant  and  say  to  him 
like  that,  "Why  do  you  fire  at  a  passer-by  like  that?" 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  whom  do  you  think  it  was 
who  fired  at  Professor  Stockley  like  that?  A.  0,  I  am  quite  cer- 
tain it  was  the  police. 

Q.  This  affidavit  is  one  of  several  you  have  there?  A.  One  of 
about  thirty. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  will  you  let  us  have  that 
to  copy? 

LORD  MAYOR  MACCURTAIN  MURDERED   BY 
POLICE  FOR  BRITISH  GOVERNMENT 

A.     Mr.  Doyle:    We  will  turn  them  all  over  to  you. 

The  Witness:  This  was  on  the  night  of  St.  Patrick's  Day  last. 
I,  with  some  others,  had  been  on  the  run  at  the  time.  I  had  been 
called  to  Cork  the  day  before  for  the  Saint  Patrick's  Day  parade. 
And  the  day  following  the  attack  on  Professor  Stockley  I  met  the 
Lord  Mayor,  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain.  And  to  my  surprise  he  men- 
tioned this  incident  of  the  Professor's,  and  he  mentioned  that  at  the 


7.39 

same  time  he  had  received  a  threatening  letter.  And  neither  lie  nor 
I  attached  much  importance  to  it.  We  felt  that  il  was  only  a  threat, 
and  that  there  was  no  danger  of  the  threat  being  put  into  effect. 
But  we  had  arranged  a  meeting  that  night  with  some  of  our  people 
to  discuss  the  particular  situation  that  was  developing  along  those 
lines.  On  that  night  I  was  not  able  to  attend  the  meeting,  and  as  a 
matter  of  fact  the  meeting  fell  through  and  was  rearranged  for  two 
or  three  days  later.  And  on  that  night,  two  days  after  Saint  Pat- 
rick's Day.  on  that  night  the  Lord  Mayor  was  murdered  in  his  own 
house.     You  have  had,  I  understand,  the  full  account  of  his  murder. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Yes,  we  have  had  the  full  account  of  that. 
But  perhaps  you  have  something  else  to  add.  A.  Yes.  I  happened 
to  meet  him  that  night  about  eleven  o'clock.  He  was  going  home. 
I  met  him  on  Saint  Patrick's  Bridge  in  Cork.  His  brother-in-law 
was  with  him  at  the  time.  I  parted  with  him  not  very  far  from  his 
own  house,  and  was  awakened  the  next  morning  about  eight  o'clock 
to  hear  that  he  had  been  murdered.  In  losing  Lord  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain  Cork  suffered  one  of  the  heaviest  losses  that  it  has  been 
called  upon  to  suffer.  He  was  one  of  the  leaders  of  the  Republican 
movement  in  Cork,  and  he  had  been  a  marked  success  as  Lord 
Mayor,  especially  in  executive  and  administrative  lines,  during  the 
time  that  he  had  occupied  the  post.  And  in  addition,  he  was  one 
of  the  most  lovable  of  men.  He  was  a  man  in  whom  not  only  his 
own  followers  but  all  the  people  of  Cork  had  not  only  the  utmost 
confidence, — that  his  ability  naturally  carried  with  it;  but  one  of 
the  most  admirable  of  men,  because,  while  in  the  chair  or  in  pri- 
vate life,  he  was  one  of  the  kindest  and  most  sympathetic  men 
imaginable. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Did  you  see  on  that  night  any  of  the  sug- 
gestions of  preparation  that  have  been  testified  to  as  to  the  stop- 
ping of  passers-by  on  the  street?  A.  No,  that  was  too  early.  It 
was  only  about  eleven  or  so.  I  would  like  to  pay  that  tribute  to 
Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain  because  the  British  Government,  not  satis- 
fied with  murdering  him,  has  also  sought  to  villify  his  character 
and  reputation, 

Q.  Major  Newman:  You  say  you  had  been  on  the  run  at  that 
time?  A.  I  had  been,  yes,  for  a  short  time  before  that.  There  was 
a  rumor  in  Cork  that  a  certain  number  of  us  were  to  be  arrested, 
and  we  went  off  for  a  month,  and  I  had  just  returned  to  the  city. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  And  you  were  on  the  council  at  that  time? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  since  your  election  as  Lord  Mayor  you  have  been  on  the 
run?  A.  No.  But  of  course  I  have  been  out  of  the  city  some  of 
the  time. 

Q.     Mr.   Doyle:    Mr.  Lord  Mayor,   you   are  satisfied   about   who 


740 

murdered  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain ?     A.     I  am  as  satisfied  as  if  I 
had  seen  it  with  my  own  eyes  that  he  was  murdered  hy  the  police. 
Q.      By  the  police  for  whom'.''      A.      For  the   British  Government, 
of  course. 

FOR  TWO  YEARS  UNABLE  TO  SLEEP  AT  HOME 

Q.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  you  have  stated  in  answer  to  Mr.  Newman 
that  you  are  ahle  to  move  about  freely  in  Cork.  Do  you  mean  that 
you  sleep  in  your  own  home?  A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not  slept  in  my 
own  home  nights  for  about  two  years.  What  I  mean  is  that  I  have 
been  able  to  move  about  in  the  city;  because  if  I  had  not  been  Lord 
Mayor,  I  would  have  left  the  city.  There  have  been  at  least  eight 
raids  at  my  house. 

Q.  Eight  raids  within  what  period  of  time?  A.  During  the  last 
five  or  six  months.  But  being  Lord  Mayor,  I  don't  want  to  leave  the 
city.  And  so  I  move  about  the  city  and  lie  a  little  low.  I  move 
about  through  the  city  and  dodge  about  from  place  to  place  and  be 
careful. 

Q.  Explain  what  you  mean  by  dodging  from  place  to  place. 
A.  I  sleep  in  a  different  place  each  night,  but  during  the  day  be- 
ing in  the  city  hall  and  being  in  the  court  house,  and  in  that  way 
attending  to  affairs  by  not  being  in  public  in  any  way  or  appearing 
any  more  than  possible, — just  moving  about  the  streets  on  a  bicycle. 

Q.  But  you  are  constantly  in  danger  of  arrest?  A.  0,  yes, 
absolutely.     Absolutely. 

MURDER  GANG  RAIDS  ALDERMEN'S  HOMES 

Q.  Does  that  condition  apply  to  all  the  public  officials  in  Ire- 
land? A.  It  does.  sir.  Most  of  the  Cork  corporation  have  been 
raided  during  the  past  six  or  seven  months.  In  one  case,  Alderman 
O'Sullivan,  his  place  has  been  raided  two  or  three  times  during  the 
past  six  months.  On  two  occasions  his  place  was  smashed  in.  On 
one  occasion  when  the  place  was  smashed  in  and  they  were  told  he 
was  not  there,  they  said,  "0,  well,  we  will  get  him.  We  will  get 
him  yet."  And  in  another  case,  Alderman  Coughlan,  his  place  was 
raided  by  the  murder  gang. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  the  murder  gang?  A.  It  is  where  a  raid 
takes  place  to  murder  a  man,  to  shoot  him  in  bed,  as  it  often  hap- 
pens. We  call  that  the  murder  gang,  as  opposed  to  a  visit  to  ar- 
rest him  and  search  the  house.  In  this  particular  case  there  is  no 
doubt  but  that  it  was  the  murder  gang;  and  only  the  fortunate  acci- 
dent that  the  Alderman  was  not  at  home  was  able  to  save  him.  As 
a  matter  of  fact,  he  was  at  home  but  escaped.  I  have  here  the  dep- 
osition of  his  wife.     (Reading)  : 


741 

Sworn  Statement  of  Mrs.  Eamon  Coughlan,  19  Pine  Street,  Cork 

"I  was  awakened  from  my  sleep  on  Saturday  morning,  27th  No- 
vember, at  4:45  A.  M.,  by  very  loud  banging.  I  got  up.  1  asked, 
'Who  is  there?'  The  reply  came,  'Open  that  door!'  I  lowered  the 
window  and  commenced  to  dress  myself,  the  banging  continuing  all 
this  time.  The  door  was  heavily  guarded  and  failed  all  their  efforts 
to  smash  it  in.  They  then  smashed  the  shutters  on  the  window  and  I 
heard  the  crash  of  broken  glass.  I  heard  one  of  them  running  up  the 
stairs,  and  stopping  outside  my  bedroom  door,  he  shouted  something 
I  could  not  catch.  On  the  30th  October,  at  11:40  P.  M.,  a  party  of 
men  who  arrived  in  a  motor  rang  the  door  bell  and  were  admitted  by 
my  husband,  who  is  a  Sinn  Fein  Alderman  of  the  Cork  Corporation. 
On  that  occasion  the  party,  numbering  three  military  officers  and  two 
policemen,  searched  my  bedroom  for  half  an  hour,  going  exhaustively 
into  all  letters,  private  and  otherwise,  found  there.  A  number  of  sol- 
diers stood  guard  outside.  They  were  not  masked  on  this  occasion. 
From  the  quick  manner  in  which  this  raider  came  to  my  bedroom,  1 
concluded  that  he  must  have  been  one  of  those  who  raided  the  house 
on  the  26th  October. 

"I  said,  'Who's  there?'  He  said  nothing,  only  rushed  in,  as  the 
door  stood  ajar.  He  was  low-sized,  dressed  in  trench  coat,  military 
cap  pulled  down  on  his  eyes,  and  wearing  a  black  mask  over  his  com- 
plete face,  having  two  slits  to  see  through.  He  was  the  height  of  one 
of  the  three  officers  of  the  previous  raid.  He  said,  'Where  is  he?  I 
only  want  him  for  a  moment.'  He  held  a  revolver  in  the  right  hand, 
and  a  flash  lamp  in  the  left.  I  said,  'Who,  and  what  do  you  want?' 
His  only  reply  all  the  time  was,  'Where  is  he.  I  only  want  him  for  a 
moment.  Aren't  you  his  wife?'  I  said,  'Yes.'  He  said,  'You  know 
him.  You  know  where  he  is.  Tell  me.'  I  said,  'He  is  not  here.  He 
is  away.'  He  repeated,  'Where  is  he?  I  only  want  him  for  a  mo- 
ment.' I  said,  T  don't  know.  He  is  away  somewhere.'  He  searched 
under  the  bed.  He  then  rushed  out  and  searched  the  other  rooms  for 
him.  He  returned  and  questioned  me  again,  but  it  was  of  no  avail. 
He  then  searched  the  wardrobe  and  up  and   down  through  the  house. 

"He  came  in  a  third  time  and  said,  'Where  does  he  keep  his  docu- 
ments ?  I  want  to  see  them.'  I  said,  'I  know  nothing  about  them. 
I  never  saw  any  documents  with  him.  If  it  is  invoices  you  mean,  they 
are  below  in  the  office.'"  (Underneath  the  house  is  the  wholesale 
shop  of  the  Alderman.)  "He  then  thoroughly  searched  the  drawers 
for  them.     He  found  nothing. 

"He  then  left,  the  time  being  then  about  5  :20  A.  M.  I  came  down 
about  five  or  six  minutes  later,  on  hearing  some  cattle  coming  along 
the  street,  and  found  the  window  smashed,  and  the  door,  which  they 
had  opened  after  entering  through  the  window,  still  open. 

"I  found  the  following  goods  missing,  looted,  of  course,  by  his  com- 
panions downstairs  while  the  leader  was  questioning  me : — About  £20 
to  £25  worth  of  cigarettes;  about  £7  worth  of  tobacco;  and  various 
other  things,  such  as  cocoa,  etc. 

"No  inquiries  were  made  by  the  British  authorities  as  to  the  occur- 
rence.    The  damage  done  to  the  shutters  and  windows   is  about  £10. 

"I  solemnly  affirm  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is_,  to  the  best  of 
my  knowledge  and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but 
the  truth,  and  that  same  was  given  bv  me  voluntarilv.  So  help  me 
God. 

(Signed)     "Mrs.  Eamon  Coughlan. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  3d  day  of  December,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Domnaix  O'Ceallacain, 

"Lord  Mayor." 

In  that  case  there  was  no  earthly  doubt  but  that  the  Alderman,  if 
he  had  been  there  and  had  been  caught  there,  would  have  been  mur- 


742 

dered.  The  remainder  of  the  party  stayed  downstairs  and  looted 
the  shop  while  one  man  alone  with  his  drawn  revolver  went  upstairs 
looking  for  the  Alderman. 

EFFECT  OF  REPEATED  RAIDS  ON  WOMEN  AND 
CHILDREN 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  is  that  a  common  occurrence  in  Ire- 
land?    A.     Absolutely,  sir. 

Q.  What  effect  has  that  had  upon  the  wives  and  other  members 
of  the  family?  A.  It  has  had  a  very  disastrous  effect  upon  them, 
as  far  as  the  perpetual  strain  on  their  nerves  is  concerned.  They 
are  having  a  very  trying  time.  But  as  regards  their  spirit  and  de- 
termination, it  makes  no  difference  whatever.  As  a  matter  of  fact, 
I  think  that  the  more  tyranny  and  oppression  England  carries  out  in 
Ireland,  the  more  determined  the  people  feel.  But  it  is  a  very  try- 
ing time  on  the  women  and  children  of  Ireland;  though  the  women 
of  Ireland  are  brave  and  are  able  to  stand  it. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  there  any  particular  reason  why  they 
were  looking  for  this  Alderman  that  you  know  of?  A.  No.  We 
were  trying  to  find  out.  I  don't  think  there  could  have  been  any 
particular  reason,  beyond  the  fact  that  he  was  a  Republican  alder- 
man. The  only  particular  thing  is  that  he  had  proposed — proposed 
or  seconded  a  resolution  of  the  corporation  refusing  to  submit  our 
accounts  to  audit  by  the  English  Local  Government  Board.  That 
was  the  only  thing  we  could  imagine. 

WOMAN  DIES  OF  FRIGHT  DURING  RAID 

There  was  a  raid  which  took  place  about  a  month  or  six  weeks 
since  in  another  part  of  the  city,  in  the  Drapers'  Club  and  the  ad- 
joining premises.  In  the  house  next  to  the  Drapers'  Club  there 
happened  to  be  a  Jew  family  living  upstairs,  and  these  people  were 
awakened  in  the  small  hours  of  the  morning  to  find  some  of  these 
men  in  the  room  with  rifles  and  revolvers.  The  lady  of  the  house, 
who  is  something  over  a  middle  aged  lady,  she  awoke  and  received 
such  a  terrible  shock  on  seeing  these  men  on  her  floor,  and  jumped 
to  the  conclusion  that  they  were  there  to  shoot  her  husband  or  her 
son,  that  she  came  out  of  bed  and  said,  "For  God's  sake,  don't 
shoot,"  and  then  she  fell  dead  at  their  feet.  That,  of  course,  was 
five  or  six  weeks  since. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  following  that  affidavit,  you 
say  these  raids  are  made  by  the  military  and  the  police?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  In  any  case  have  any  raids  been  made  by  the  Republican 
forces  in  Ireland  on  any  house  in  Ireland?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of 
personally.     I  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  them. 


743 

Q.  Have  any  been  made  in  Cork?  A.  There  have  been  raids 
attributed  to  them.  I  am  not  in  a  position  to  slate  whether  they  were 
or  not. 

COUNCILLORS'  RESIGNATIONS  READY  IN  CASE  OF 
ARREST 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  does  the  Cork  Council  function  when 
yon  are  away?  Is  some  one  else  selected  to  preside?  A.  Yes,  at 
thi1  particular  meeting. 

Q.  And  when  the  Republican  members  have  been  weeded  out, 
that  leaves  the  Unionists  or  some  other  members  of  the  corporation 
to  carry  on  its  business?  A.  That  has  been  done,  but  it  has  not 
reached  that  stage  with  us  yet.  The  first  thing  we  did  after  election 
was  to  sign  our  resignations.  These  are  lying  there,  so  that  if  any 
of  the  members  are  sentenced  to  prison  or  are  likely  to  be  detained 
for  a  considerable  time,  or  if  a  majority  of  the  council  are  threat- 
ened, or  it  is  desirable  that  more  men  be  available  for  active  ser- 
vice, these  resignations  can  always  be  put  in,  and  other  men  se- 
lected to  fill  their  places. 

Q.  Can  the  council  fill  vacancies  that  would  occur?  A.  In  the 
county  council,  vacancies  are  filled  by  the  council.  In  the  city 
council,  there  would  be  a  by-election. 

Q.  That  by-election  would  be  held  by  a  popular  vote?  A.  Yes, 
a  popular  vote. 

Q.  No  obstruction  by  the  military  authorities?  A.  No,  not  up 
to  today.     Of  course  now  I  don't  know  what  would  be  done. 

There  was  one  very  glaring  raid  near  Cork  City.  Mr.  George 
O'Grady  until  about  six  months  ago  was  a  justice  of  the  peace;  that 
is,  he  held  a  commission  as  justice  of  the  peace  under  the  British 
Government.  He  is  a  Protestant  gentleman  who  farms,  and  his 
wife  is  a  lady  who  takes  and  has  taken  for  years  a  great  interest  in 
poultry  raising.  She  acts  as  instructress  in  poultry  breeding  over 
County  Cork,  and  she  adjudicates  at  the  different  exhibitions  that 
have  been  held.  In  1913  there  was  a  special  prize  offered  by  the 
Poultry  World  for  an  examination,  and  she  won  the  prize,  which, 
I  think,  was  a  thousand  pounds.  The  raiding  of  her  place  was  with- 
out any  reason.  I  have  never  been  able  to  imagine,  and  neither  has 
she,  any  reason  why  their  place  should  be  raided.  Their  political 
views  might  be  assumed  to  be  pro-British,  because  her  husband  held 
a  British  commission  of  justice,  and  her  son  fought  in  the  British 
army  during  the  war;  and  they  have  never  been  connected  in  any 
way  with  the  Republican  movement.     (Reading)  : 


744 

PROTESTANT  HOME  RAIDED  AND  ROBBED 

Sworn  Testimony  of  Mrs.  George  O'Grady,  "Norwood,"  Roches- 
town,  County  Cork,  Concerning  the  Raiding  and  Looting  of  Her 
Home  by  Police  and  Military  on  29th  March,  1920: 

"At  4  A.  M.  on  Saturday,  March  20,  1920,  our  home,  Norwood, 
Rochestown,  was  raided  by  police  and  a  large  number  of  military. 
My  husband  got  out  of  bed  and  opened  the  door  for  the  raiders. 
I  was  still  in  bed  when  the  soldiers  rushed  into  my  bedroom.  I  asked 
them  to  leave  my  room.  They  refused.  I  got  up  and  proceeded  to 
dress  myself  in  their  presence.  Before  I  was  half  dressed  I  was 
called  down  by  the  officers  conducting  the  raid  to  look  at  bullets 
which  they  said  they  had  found  in  a  sack  in  the  hall.  I  told  them 
that  such  could  not  be  so;  that  they  must  have  had  them  put  there." 

The  Witness:  That  planting,  I  might  explain,  of  ammunition 
and  seditious  documents  in  the  course  of  these  raids,  and  then  the 
alleged  discovery  of  them,  is  quite  a  common  feature  of  these  raids. 
(Continues  reading)  : 

"I  went  upstairs  to  finish  dressing,  the  three  soldiers  accompanying 
me  all  the  time.  When  dressed  I  came  down  again,  and  on  demand 
gave  them  the  keys  of  every  place.  I  was  placed  in  a  room  with  my 
.husband,  my  son  (12  years  old),  my  son  who  had  been  in  the  Eng- 
lish army  and  was  still  suffering  from  the  effects  of  his  wounds,  and 
my  little  girl  aged  nine  years,  who,  though  sick  in  bed,  had  been  or- 
dered up.  We  were  then  under  arrest,  and  three  soldiers  guarded  the 
door,  and  two  soldiers  guarded  the  windows. 

"At  9  A.  M.  we  were  called  into  the  hall,  and  my  husband  put  under 
arrest.  They  said  they  would  deal  with  my  eldest  son  later.  Besides 
the  bullets  mentioned  before,  the  raiders  showed  us  a  haversack,  a 
revolver  case,  my  husband's  field-glasses,  and  a  black  satin  square 
painted  with  shamrocks,  and  having  a  small  satin  Sinn  Fein  flag  in  a 
corner. 

"I  suddenly  thought  of  money  which  I  had  on  the  table  by  my  bed. 
This  was  money  received  from  sales  of  eggs,  and  amounted  to  sixty- 
three  pounds  in  one  pound  and  ten  shilling  notes.  It  was  all  in  a 
registered  envelope,  contained  in  a  cotton  bag.  I  ran  upstairs  to  get 
it,  a  soldier  accompanying  me.  It  was  not  there ;  and  I  could  hardly 
describe  the  state  of  things  in  the  room.  I  ran  downstairs  to  the  offi- 
cer in  command  of  the  raiders,  still  accompanied  by  the  soldier,  and 
asked  if  he  knew  where  the  money  was.  He  said  he  believed  such 
was  there,  but  might  have  fallen  on  the  floor,  and  directed  me  to  look 
again.  I  did  so,  this  time  alone,  but  could  not  find  the  money.  I  came 
down  and  told  him  I  could  not  find  it.  An  officer  seated  in  the  hall 
stuck  out  his  tongue  at  me.  The  leader  informed  me  that  he  was  not 
liable   for  the  loss. 

"My  husband  was  then  taken  away,  being  refused  permission  to 
have  his  breakfast. 

"I  then  commenced  an  examination  of  the  rooms.  The  bag  which 
contained  my  jewelry  was  open  on  the  floor  of  my  bedroom,  and  all 
the  jewel-cases  empty.  Over  twenty  locks  on  beautiftil  wardrobes 
and  presses  had  been  broken  open,  notwithstanding  that  I  had  given 
the   raiders   all   the  keys   to  open   them.     My  dead   mother's   wardrobe 


745 

had  been  broken  open,  and  all  her  lovely  jewelry,  which  she  had  given 
me,  gone.  Valuable  vases  in  the  drawing  room  were  broken,  and  a 
cut  glass  eake  stand  and  cut  glass  glasses  broken.  Subjoined  is  a 
list  of  articles  taken.     We  did  not  receive  the  slightest  thing  back: 

"Gold  watch  and  engraved  heavy  gold  chain ;  old  gold  heavy  flex- 
ible bracelet ;  solid  gold  chain  bracelet ;  brooch,  gold  shield  shape,  in 
diamonds  with  emerald  in  center;  gold  brooch  circle  in  wreath  of 
pearls;  gold  brooch  bar,  about  five  stones  alternately  on  ruby  and 
diamonds  ;  gold  swallow  in  diamonds  ;  pearl  ear  rings ;  gold  diamond 
cluster  ring;  gold  diamond  ring,  five  stones;  gold  ring,  sapphires  with 
brilliants;  turquoise  and  pearl  ring;  gold,  pearl  and  diamond  brooch; 
gold  pearl  pendant ;  gold  clasped  bracelet ;  gold  chain  bracelet ;  long 
gold  chain  (stamped  J.  Johnson)  ;  gentleman's  gold  sleeve-links  (C.  S. 
O'G.);  £63  in  money;  set  hand-painted  poultry  slides  for  poultry  in- 
struction ;   drawing  certificates ;   nursing  certificates. 

"It  will  be  remembered  that  I  am  the  lady  who  won  the  £1000  prize 
for  Poultry  Industry  offered  by  the  Poultry  World  in  1913.  The  ex- 
amination, oral  and  practical,  was  conducted  by  American  judges,  and 
was  held  in  England.  Immediately  I  was  offered  a  big  salary  to 
undertake  the  training  of  pupils  in  Poultry  Farming  in  a  college  in 
England.  I  refused,  for  I  loved  my  own  country  best,  and  stated  so 
in  a  Cork  newspaper  at  the  time.  I  had  given  all  my  time  to  the  de- 
velopment of  the  poultry  industry,  and  I  asked  the  Department  of 
Agriculture  for  Ireland  for  a  post  as  head  of  a  training  college  in 
Ireland,  but  got  no  offer.  Since  then  I  have  worked  on  among  the 
people,  teaching  many,  making  it  my  special  business  to  help  the  in- 
dustry among  the  cottagers.  My  work  has  always  been  given  free 
among  them.  For  it  is  they  who  hold  the  great  industry  of  Ireland. 
At  the  present  time  I  hold  the  judging  of  most  of  our  Irish  shows  in 
the  poultry  line.  I  suppose  this  is  our  treatment  for  working  among 
the  people  late  and  early,  and  judging  and  advising  at  agricultural 
shows.  I  suppose  it  was  thought  we  were  doing  wrong,  but  we  had 
only  the  industry  at  heart. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  and  that  same  was  given  by  me  volun- 
tarily.    So  help  me  God  ! 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Mrs.  George  O'Gradv. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  4th  day  of  November,   1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seam us  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Harbor  Commissioner." 

FREQUENCY  OF  ROBBERY  DURING  RAIDS 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  say  nobody  could  explain  why  they 
raided  that  place?  A.  No,  sir.  There  is  nothing  that  you  could 
possibly  imagine  as  a  real  reason. 

Q.  Well,  from  the  list  of  the  property  they  stole  it  seems  to  me 
quite  apparent.  A.  Yes,  but  there  is  no  reason  that  we  could 
imagine. 

Q.  But  I  want  to  ask  you,  do  these  fellows  usually  lake  properly 
and  jewelry?      A.     0,  yes,  robbery  during   raids  is  quite   frequent. 

There  is  also  a  deposition  from  Mr.  O'Gradv.  but  il  deals  with 
the  same  incident,  and  it  is  not  necessary  to  read  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  What  became  of  Mr.  O'Grady?  How  long  was 
he  detained  by  the  police?  A.  He  was  detained  for  three  or  four 
days,  and  then  he  was  released  without  charge  or  trial. 


746 

Q.  In  other  words,  he  was  put  in  jail  for  some  days,  and  then 
was  finally  released  without  any  charge  at  all? 

BRITISH   OFFICIALS   FALSELY   DENY  THEFT 

A.  0,  yes,  released  unconditionally.  In  the  course  of  Mr. 
O'Grady's  deposition  he  says, — it  was  after  five  days'  detention  he 
was  unconditionally  released  without  trial: 

"On  my  return  home  I  applied  to  the  Chief  Secretary  for  the  Eng- 
lish Government  in  Ireland ;  to  the  General  Officer  Commanding  Eng- 
lish troops  in  Cork;  and  to  General  Macready,  and  had  answers  from 
all  these  denying  that  anything  was  touched  in  the  house,  and  Sir 
Hamar  Greenwood  had  the  audacity  to  inform  me  that  we  were 
never  placed  under  arrest  in  our  house,  but  were  treated  with  the 
greatest  courtesy." 


And  he  al 


so  says: 


"I  found  valuable  old  furniture  damaged,  locks  broken  everywhere, 
some  priceless  old  china  wantonly  smashed,  and  the  feather  pillows 
and  coverlets  all  prodded  with  bayonets.  On  giving  a  description  of 
the  articles  of  jewelry  stolen  to  an  expert,  I  found  that  the  value  of 
it  was  at  least  £400.  This,  together  with  the  money,  £63,  taken,  and 
damage  sustained,  would  bring  our  total  loss  sustained  to  about  £750." 

COMPLICITY  OF  BRITISH  GOVERNMENT  IN  RAIDS 
PROVED   BY  OFFICERS  IN  COMMAND 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  what  evidence  is  there 
that  these  raids  are  conducted  by  men  under  the  control  of  officers? 
I  notice  that  Mrs.  O'Grady  says  she  spoke  to  an  officer.  What  is  the 
usual  experience?  Is  it  generally  obvious  that  officers  are  in  com- 
mand of  these  raids?  A.  0,  yes,  openly,  in  uniform.  In  some, 
raids  there  are  police  only,  and  in  some  raids  police  and  military, 
and  in  some  raids  military  only. 

Q.  And  so  you  think  this  is  connected  with  the  Government  pol- 
icy. Have  you  any  evidence  of  orders  received  from  headquarters 
that  the  Government  is  connected  with  it?  A.  Orders  that  these 
men  have  received  to  carry  on  these  raids? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  I  cannot  say  that  I  have.  Those  would  be 
private  orders.1 

Q.  Major  Newman:  In  most  cases  these  raids  are  in  charge  of 
officers?     A.     Yes,  that  is  true. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  grade  of  officer?  How  high  an 
officer,  do  you  know,  has  taken  part  in  these  raids?  Lieutenants 
and  captains?  A.  Yes,  lieutenants  and  captains.  I  do  not  remem- 
ber of  any  case  where  there  was  any  higher  officer.     People  raided 


1  The  British  Labor  Commission  to  Ireland  did  see  such  official  orders, 
photographic  reproductions  of  which  are  contained  in  their  Report  (Jan., 
1921),  pp.  14,  66. 


747 

in  many  cases  know  them  by  their  badges,  as  far  as  the  lieutenants 
and  captains  are  concerned.  But  these  raids  take  place  usually  at 
night,  and  the  people  are  not  very  observant. 

Q.  Yes,  that  is  quite  obvious,  but  I  wanted  to  know  if  you  had 
any  definite  information. 

HOME  AND  SHOP  OF  POOR  MAN  PLUNDERED 

A.  Yes.  These  raids  are  not  confined  to  people  like  Mrs. 
O'Grady.  Even  in  the  poorest  houses  some  little  thing  is  taken,  and 
if  nothing  is  taken,  very  often  the  people  in  the  house  are  subjected 
to  threats,  and  very  often  to  man-handling. 

This  is  the  case  of  a  raid  on  a  house  in  one  of  the  poorest  parts  of 
Cork. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  before  you  start  that,  you  say 
the  houses  of  the  poor  and  the  houses  of  the  rich  are  raided.  Do 
they  make  any  distinction  as  far  as  religion  is  concerned?  A.  No, 
not  as  far  as  I  know.  Mr.  O'Grady  was  a  Protestant.  This  is  the 
case  of  a  man  named  Horgan.  He  has  a  barber  shop  apart  from 
his  residence,  and  they  were  both  raided.     (Reading)  : 

Sworn  Statement  of  Timothy  Horgan,  19  Kearney  s  Lane,  Cork,  Con- 
cerning Raids  on  and  Looting  of  His  Premises  by  Military  on 
29th  August,  loth  September,  and  8th  October,  1920: 

"Hearing  that  my  business  premises  in  16  Kyle  Street,  Cork,  were 
raided  by  the  English  military  during  the  early  hours  of  Sunday,  29th 
August,  I  went  there  that  morning  at  9 :30  A.  M.  I  found  the  door 
broken  open,  and  everything,  including  the  contents  of  a  glass  case, 
scattered  around  the  floor.  On  examination  I  found  the  following  arti- 
cles missing :  All  my  razors,  30  in  number  (all  of  these  were  of  Ger- 
man pre-war  make,  and  13  of  them  were  never  used)  ;  3  pair  of  scissors; 
£3:15:0  in  money;  200  membership  cards  of  the  Thomas  MacCurtain 
Memorial  Band ;  4  pair  of  boots  belonging  to  the  Republican  police ; 
2  officers'  jackets,  used  by  Australian  army,  selling  in  all  second-hand 
shops;  1  fawn  overcoat;  1  lady's  silver  wristlet  watch. 

"I  have  convincing  proof  which  I  can  bring  forward  that  the  lady's 
watch  was  afterwards  in  the  possession  of  an  officer  of  the  Staffordshire 
Regiment,  stationed  in  Cork  Military  Barracks.  I  complained  in  writing 
to  Headquarters,  British  Military  Command,  Cork ;  answer  thus  : 

"'No.  161/41/A, 

"  'Headquarters  17th  Infantry  Brigade,  Cork,  9th  August,  1920. 
"  'Dear  Sir :    I  am  directed  to  acknowledge  your  letter  of  the  6th  inst. 
and  to  inform  you  that  your  premises  were  entered  under  Defence  of 
Realm  Act,  but  that  none  of  the  articles  mentioned  by  you  were  taken 
by  the  search  party.     Yours  faithfully, 

(Signed)     "  T.  H.  O'Dempsey,  Captain, 

"  'Staff  Captain,  \7lh  Infantry  Brigade. 
Mr.  Timothy  Horgan, 

"  '16  Kyle  Street,  Cork.' 
"On   the   13th   September  at   1:15   A.   M.   my   house   in    19   Kear- 
ney's   Lane,    Cork,    was    raided    by    soldiers    of    the    Staffordshire 
Regimen    under    the    control    of    an    officer.      The    search    lasted 


748 

over  an  hour,  during  which  time  my  wife  and  myself  were  in 
our  bare  feet,  and  only  partly  dressed.  Just  as  the  soldiers  were 
commencing-  to  search  the  house,  I  told  the  officer  that  I  had 
been  searched  before.  He  said,  'That's  the  hair-dresser's  shop  in 
Kyle  Street?'  I  said,  'Yes,  and  everything  I  had  was  looted.' 
He  replied,  "Nothing  like  that  will  happen  here.'  The  sergeant, 
coming  on  a  portrait  of  Lord  Mayor  MacCurtain,  nicely  mounted 
on  a  background  worked  v^ith  silk  and  containing  the  inscrip- 
tion 'Aid.  Toraas  MacCurtain,  First  Republican  Lord  Mayor 
of  Cork.  Murdered  by  the  R.  I.  C.  on  March  20th,  1920,'  showed 
it  to  the  officer,  who  said,  'That's  all  right.  It  is  only  a  memento 
of  the  dead  Lord  Mayor.'  The  sergeant  stuck  his  finger  through 
the    portrait. 

"On  one  occasion,  when  feeling  faint,  my  wife  attempted  to 
go  for  some  milk;  she  was  ordered  not  to  move  from  where 
she  stood.  Both  of  us  were  refused  permission  to  get  our  boots. 
The  officer  knew  my  name,  and  claimed  I  was  a  commander  in 
the  local  Volunteers.  The  officer  and  soldiers  were  all  under  the 
influence  of  drink.  When  they  had  departed,  I  missed  the  fol- 
lowing: 1  gold  bracelet;  1  cloth  (which  I  used  at  my  hair-dressing 
business);  some  gramaphone  records;  some  razors  out  of  a 
case;  and  a  purse  was  emptied  of  a  few  shillings. 

"On  the  8th  of  October  at  midnight  my  house  in  19  Kearney's 
Lane  was  again  raided  by  three  officers  and  39  men.  They  in- 
quired of  my  wife  for  me,  but  I  was  not  at  home.  The  follow- 
ing morning,  9th  of  October,  I  found  the  door  of  my  business 
premises,  16  Kyle  Street,  again  broken  open.  Entering  I  found 
all  the  flooring  boards  pulled  up,  and  sheeting  on  the  wall 
pulled  down.  Upstairs,  the  flooring  boards  were  pulled  up,  and 
some  of  the   wall   round   the   fireplace  knocked   down. 

"From  the  constant  raids  my  wife  is  in  an  extremely  nervous 
condition,  and  as  a  consequence  she  is  at  present  under  a  doc- 
tor's care.  My  business  was  seriously  dislocated,  and  my  loss 
alone  from  the  looting  on  the  occasion  of  the  first  raid  in  Kyle 
Street    is    i57:19:0. 

"I  swear  by  Almighty  God  that  the  above  testimony  is  the 
truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  and  same  was 
given   by   me   voluntarily.      So   help   me   God! 

(Signed)     "Timothy  Horgan. 

"Sworn  to  in  my  presence  this  2d  day  of  October,  1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)      Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Harbor  Commissioner, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian," 

SUFFERING  INFLICTED  ON  WOMEN  BY  RAIDS 

Here  is  an  example  of  what  the  women  in  Ireland  have  to  bear, 
about  which  you  asked  a  few  moments  ago.  This  is  the  poor 
woman's  own  testimony.      (Reading)  : 

Sworn  Statement  of  Mrs.  T.  Horgan,  19  Kearney's  Lane,  Cork, 
Concerning  a  Raid  on  Her  Home  by  British  Crown  Forces  on  28th 
October,    1920. 

"1  went  to  bed  at  12:45  at  my  home,  19  Kearney's  Lane.  Five 
minutes  afterwards  1  heard  knocking  at  the  front  door.  I  got 
up  and  came  out  towards  the  door,  undressed,  as  they  kept  on 
banging  away.     To   my  third  question  as  to  who   was  there   I  re- 


749 

ceived  the  answer,  'Volunteers,'  and  'You  have  better  let  us  in 
quickly.'  I  said,  'Give  me  time  to  dress.'  At  this  moment  the 
door  was  broken  open,  and  my  sister  and  myself,  catching  a  skirt 
each  in  our  hands,  fled  out  the  back  door,  over  a  wall  into  Mrs. 
O'Leary's  house,  No.  16.  We  had  taken  our  skirts  with  us,  and 
now  put  them  on.  We  were  only  a  few  minutes  there  when 
the  raiders  went  to  the  back  and  front  of  all  the  houses  and 
entering,  searched  seven  houses.  They  were  dressed  in  khaki 
with  black  capes,  some  wearing  trench-helmets,  more  black  caps, 
all  under  the  charge  of  an  officer  who  had  raided  my  home  on 
the  first  occasion.  He  was  dressed  in  khaki,  and  on  this  occa- 
sion wore  a  large  white  cloth  over  his  mouth  as  a  disguise.  He 
entered  Mrs.  O'Leary's  house  through  the  front  door,  and  seeing 
me,  stopped  and  said.  'Are  not  you  Mrs.  Horgan?'  Being  afraid, 
I  replied,  'No.  I'm  Mrs.  Donoghue.'  He  asked  again,  sharply, 
and  in  the  same  English  accent,  but  I  maintained  I  was  Mrs. 
Donoghue.  Still  not  satisfied  he  questioned  Mrs.  O'Leary,  but 
she   corroborated. 

"After  searching  the  other  houses,  the  raiders  returned  to  my 
home.  I  could  hear  them  shout  from  outside  to  the  others  inside, 
'Bring!  Bring!  Bring!"  As  I  afterwards  found  out,  this  meant 
looting. 

"I  then  went  out  into  Mrs.  O'Leary's  yard,  and  entered  Mrs. 
O'Callaghan's  yard,  No.  17.  1  saw  some  raiders  standing  in  her 
hall.  They  rushed,  and  I  ran  back  to  Mrs.  O'Leary's.  They 
went  to  the  back  to  Mrs.  Daly's,  No.  18,  and  shouted,  'They're  es- 
caping through  the  back.'  The  officer  replied,  'Shoot!  Shoot  every- 
thing dozen  you  see.'  Mrs.  Daly  cried  out  from  her  bed,  'Officer,  they 
may  be  women.'  The  only  reply  he  gave  was,  'I  have  a  bomb 
in  my  pocket.'  I  heard  the  raiders  leave  about  2:30  A.  M. 
About  3  A.  M.  Mr.  Daly  came  to  Mrs.  O'Leary's  and  brought 
me  to  his  house  to  sleep  the  night  with  Mrs.  Daly.  In  Mrs. 
Daly's  house  I  fainted  completely,  and  did  not  come  to  my 
senses  again  until  about  8  A.  M.  I  then  went  home  and  found 
doors  open.  In  the  kitchen  and  bedroom  everything  was  dragged 
about.  An  altar  in  the  bedroom  was  torn  down,  and  various 
china  articles  were  smashed.  I  found  an  empty  bottle  of  stout 
on   the  table  which  was  not  in  the  house  when   I   left. 

"The  following  articles  were  missing:  1  lady's  golf  coat;  2 
waterproof  coats;  makings  of  a  dress;  1  pair  of  curtains;  1  table 
cloth;  2  pairs  of  sheets;  2  pairs  of  pillows;  small  curtain  brushes 
and  scissors;  1  small  clock;  some  underclothing;  1  silver  mounted 
walking  stick,  initialed  T.  H.,  which  my  husband  had  received  as 
a  present;   and   £7  in   money,   and   food.     Total   value,   £27. 

"I  am  too  much  afraid  to  sleep  at  home  since,  and  every  time 
I  see  a  soldier  I  imagine  I  am  going  to  be  attacked.  My  nerves 
are  unstrung  as  a  result  of  these  repeated  raids.1 

"I  swear  before  Almighty  God  that  the  foregoing  testimony 
is  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth.  So 
help    me    God! 

(Signed)     '"Bridget  Horgan. 

"Sworn   in   my  presence  this   10th  day  of  November,   1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Domnall  O'Ceallacain, 

"Lord  Mayor  of  Cork, 
''Chairman,  Cork  County  Council." 

ATTEMPTED  RAPE  OF  GIRL  BY  RAIDER 

Ibis  is  a  typical  night  in  Cork.     These  raids  sometimes  bear  other 
features  which  are  still  more  revolting.     I  have  here  the  statement 


LSee  preceding  affidavit  by  affiant's  husband. 


750 

of  Miss  Ellie  Lane  of  Ballincollig,  County  Cork,  who  was  in  the 
house  of  her  employer  during  a  raid,  and  who  was  attacked  per- 
sonally by  some  members  of  the  raiding  party.  There  are  rea- 
sons why  I  prefer  not  to  read  it,  but  I  hand  in  the  deposition.  It 
is  an  assault  on  the  girl. 

Mr.  Doyle:    Just  a  moment.     (Confers  with  Commissioners.) 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Will  you  show  us  the  part  that  you  think  is 
objectionable? 

(Witness  indicates  part.) 

Chairman  Wood:  The  affidavit  contains  a  statement  of  an  attempt 
to  seduce  a  girl,  but  was  not  accomplished.  It  was  not  accompanied 
by  rape.  I  don't  think  it  is  necessary  to  read  it.  We  will  put  it 
on  our  record. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  With  reference  to  the  affidavit  just  mentioned, 
Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  that  was  an  attempted  assault  by  members  of  the 
British  raiding  force  on  a  house  in  Cork  City,  was  it?  A.  Well, 
just  near  Cork, — Ballincollig,  three  or  four  miles  from  Cork. 

Q.  The  deposition  was  taken  by  whom?  A.  The  deposition 
was  made  by  Miss  Ellie  Lane  of  Ballincollig. 

Q.     It  was  taken  under  oath?     A.     Yes,  it  was  taken  under  oath. 

(Inserted  in  record  by  order  of  the  Commission.) 

Sworn  Statement  of  Miss  Ellie  Lane,  Ballincollig,  County  Cork. 
"I  am  a  maid  employed  by  Mr.  B.  J.  Magner,  Ballincollig.  and  was 
in  bed  in  one  of  the  top  rooms  the  night  of  29th  September,  1920,  when 
the  house  was  forcibly  entered  and  searched  by  armed,  masked  men.  I 
have  a  bedroom  to  myself,  and  a  Miss  Maggie  O'Connor,  who  occupies 
the  bedroom  opening  into  mine,  came  into  my  bed  with  me,  as  we  were 
frightened. 

"About  twelve-thirty  A.  M.  two  of  the  raiders  entered  my  room  with- 
out knocking.  The  bigger  one  was  dressed  in  trench  coat  and  gray 
tweed  cap,  and  had  a  black  mask  over  his  mouth ;  the  other  was 
dressed  in  a  gray  belted  coat,  and  tweed  cap,  and  had  his  face  black- 
ened. The  bigger  one  asked  what  had  brought  the  girl  into  my  room, 
as  he  had  seen  the  bed  in  the  other  room  empty.  We  replied,  'For 
safety.'  He  ordered  both  of  us  up.  The  smaller  fellow  blindfolded 
Miss  O'Connor  and  put  her  out  into  her  own  room.  The  big  fellow 
searched  my  bed,  and  said  he  was  looking  for  firearms.  He  put  me 
over  against  the  window,  placed  the  screen  over  my  face,  and  com- 
menced searching  the  presses  and  examining  my  letters.  I  put  my  head 
out  and  told  him  they  were  my  letters,  and  that  there  was  nothing  in 
them.  The  small  fellow  told  me  to  put  in  my  head,  or  he  would  shoot 
me.  He  had  a  revolver  in  his  hand.  The  big  fellow  then  took  the 
screen  off  my  face  and  kissed  me  in  spite  of  all  endeavors  to  prevent 
him.  He  tried  to  force  me  to  go  back  to  bed,  and  to  do  so  caught 
me  by  the  throat  with  his  two  hands,  but  I  resisted  all  his  efforts  suc- 
cessfully. When  he  saw  this,  he  stopped,  and  asked  me  did  I  know 
of  any  chap  staying  in  the  house  named  O'Brien,  and  I  said  T  didn't, 
as   I   never   heard   of   such   a   person   staying   in   the   house.     The   two 


751 

then  left,  and  about  five  minutes  afterwards,  the  big  fellow  came  back 
again  to  ray  room. 

'  He  made  me  sit  down  tin  the  bed.  I  asked  him  what  did  be  want 
me  to  do.  Was  it  to  assault  me?  He*  said  no,  but  that  1  should  get 
back  to  bed  before  he  would  leave.  I  refused.  He  then  exposed  his 
naked  person  to  me.  and  tried  to  seduce  me  by  telling  me  he  had  plenty 
of  monev.     I  told  him  that  1  didn't  want  his  money.     He  then  told  me 

to  come"  into  the  Head  Office   in   Cork  and  ask  for   Seamus .     I 

told  him  I  would  not,  but  that  I  would  clear  out  of  Ballincolhg  the  first 
moment  I  saw  the  daylight.  The  small  chap  was  in  the  other  girl's 
room  all  this  time,  and"  watching  into  my  room.  The  other  girl  was  in 
bed,  but  no  harm  was  done  her.  He  called  on  the  big  chap  to  come 
away.  They  then  left,  and  about  half  an  hour  afterwards  Mrs.  Magner 
came  and  told  us  they  were  gone. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge 
and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth.  So 
help  me  God  ! 

(Signed)     "Ellie  Lane. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  12th  day  of  November,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman.  Cove  Urban  Council, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Referring  to  this  attempt  to  seduce  this 
girl,  is  there  much  of  what  we  call  sex  crime  in  connection  with 
these  raids?  This  is1  the  first  testimony  that  we  have  had  of  that 
kind.  And  we  were  so  accustomed  to  hearing  of  sex  excess  in  the 
situation  in  Belgium  that  it  has  been  in  marked  contrast  to  that. 
And  I  am  wondering  if  there  had  been  any  charge  in  this  connec- 
tion in  these  raids  in  the  treatment  of  the  Irish  people.  A.  This 
is  the  only  case  in  which  I  have  gotten  a  definite  deposition,  and 
it  is  the  only  case  of  which  I  know  personally  in  Cork.  There  have 
been  rumors  of  such  cases  throughout  the  country,  but  I  do  not 
know  whether  they  are  correct  or  not.  I  have  no  particulars  about 
them.  But  I  will  say  that  that  class  of  assaults  is  not  very  general 
in  connection  with  raids. 


RAIDERS  SEEK  TO  FIND  LORD  MAYOR 

Speaking  of  attacks,  the  attempted  murder  of  Alderman  Coughlan 
and  the  threatened  murder  of  Alderman  O'Sullivan  and  the  uneasi- 
ness generally  of  administrative  bodies,  I  may  say  that  somewhere 
about  July,  I  think,  shortly  before  my  appointment  as  Deputy  Lord 
Mayor,  there  was  a  shot  fired  into  my  house  one  night,  just  one 
shot.  The  house  was  not  raided  on  that  occasion  nor  attacked.  The 
shot  came  through  the  front  door  and  passed  through  the  parti- 
tion into  the  parlor.  On  the  28th  of  October  last  there  was  a 
member  of  the  City  Hall  staff  in  Cork  had  his  home  raided  about 
two  in  the  morning,  and  this  raid  was  connected  with  myself,  and, 
of  course,  is  an  intimation  not  only  of  the  things  that  are  happen- 
ing, but  what  I  am  really  more  concerned  about  trying  to  convey, 
not  so  much  the  special  instances  as  the  general  and  continuing  at- 


752    , 

mosphere   connected    with   these   happenings,    and   under   which   we 
live. 

Affidavit  of  Sean  Courtney 

This  is  the  sworn  deposition  of  Mr.  Sean  Courtney,  11  Parnell 
Terrace,  Pouladuff,  Cork,  concerning  a  raid  by  police  and  military 
on  his  residence  at  2  A.  M.  on  the  28th  of  October,  1920.  (Read- 
ing) : 

"I  was  awakened  at  2  A.  M.  on  the  28th  of  October,  1920,  at  my 
residence,  Pouladuff,  Cork.  My  wife  and  myself  got  up,  but  before 
I  was  able  to  get  downstairs  I  was  accosted  by  a  number  of  military 
officers  on  the  lobby  outside  our  bedroom  door.  Those  of  them  who 
hadn't  moustaches  had  the  upper  lip  painted  black  as  a  disguise.  They 
asked  me  my  name,  and  kept  my  wife  and  myself  about  ten  minutes 
standing  in  the  cold,  practically  naked,  answering  questions  as  to  why 
I  had  left  my  last  house  and  come  to  live  here,  etc."  (He  had  been 
living  in  that  particular  house  only  about  a  week  at  the  time  of  that 
raid.) 

"He  then  allowed  me  to  get  my  trousers  on,  and  ordered  me  down 
to  the  kitchen.  My  wife,  in  her  night-dress  still,  and  myself  went 
down  to  the  kitchen,  where  we  found  soldiers  under  the  direction  of  an 
officer  tearing  up  the  flooring  boards.  They  emptied  the  contents  of 
various  cupboards  onto  the  floor.  They  then  ordered  my  wife  upstairs. 
She  refused  to  go,  as  military  were  upstairs  in  the  bedrooms.  She 
was  eventually  compelled  to  go. 

"An  officer  picked  up  a  photograph,  and  in  reply  to  his  questioning 
I  told  him  it  was  a  photograph  of  my  little  son  9  years  old,  taken  in 
kilts.  He  thereupon  tore  it  up  in  bits  and  hit  me  across  the  face  with 
them,  saying,  'This   is  another  murderer.' 

"He  asked  was   I  the  man  who  was  employed  at  the  City  Hall.     I 
replied,    'Yes.'     He   said,    'You   are   the   fellow   who    said   we   stole 
your  money.'  " 
The  Witness:    There  is  a  deposition  bearing  on  that.     That  re- 
fers to  a  raid  that  occurred  about  a  week  or  so  previous  in  the  City 
Hall,  and  in  which  a  sum  of  money  belonging  to  this  man  Courtney 
had  been  stolen,  and  he  had  subsequently  got  into  communication 
with  the  military  authorities  and  complained  about  it.     And  that  was 
the  amount  referred  to  by  this  officer.    Sixty  pounds  was  the  amount 
stolen. 

"I  said,  'Yes.'  He  kept  cross-examining  me  on  this  point,  giving 
me  the  impression  that  he  was  a  man  of  law;  he  admitted  having 
raided  the  City  Hall  on  the  occasion  under  discussion.  He  asked 
me  if  I  was  a  loyalist.  I  said,  'If  it  is  to  your  Crown,  I  am  not.' 
He  said,  'You  are  a  Republican?'  I  said,  'Yes.'  He  took  a  re- 
volver out  of  his  pocket  and  placed  it  to  my  right  temple,  and 
asked  me  to  tell  him  where  Donal  O'Callaghan,  this  Deputy, 
sleeps  at  night.  I  said  I  didn't  know.  He  called  me  a  liar,  and 
stated  I  did  know,  and  that  I  knew  everything  going  on  at  the 
City  Hall.  He  then  opened  the  button  of  my  shirt,  and  placed  the 
muzzle  of  the  revolver  against  my  heart,  telling  me  he  was  giving 
me  five  minutes  to  divulge  the  information.  While  the  revolver 
was  at  my  heart  an  officer  standing  at  the  corner  discharged  a 
shot  from  a  revolver.  It  may  or  may  not  have  been  a  blank  car- 
tridge, as  we  cannot  yet  find  the  bullet.  There  was  a  hearty 
laugh  from  the  officers  and  soldiers  all  round  at  this.  It  was  done 
presumably  to  frighten  me.  He  pressed  me  hard  for  some  time 
longer,  still  keeping  the  revolver  to  my  heart;  being  of  no  avail, 


753 

he  caught  me  by  the  ears  and  by  the  hair  of  my  head,  and  shook 
me.  He  kicked  "me  and  told  me  to  get  upstairs.  He  followed  and 
demanded    where    my    uniform    and    pipes    were." 

The  Witness:  This  Mr.  Courtney  was  a  member  of  the  Piper's 
Band  in  Cork,  and  thai  hand  had  a  distinct  uniform.  They  wore 
kilts,  the  old  Irish  dress. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  They  are  connected  with  the  Republican 
Army?     A.     \es.  sir.     (Continues  reading)  : 

"As  it  was  of  no  use,  as  I  refused  to  give  him  the  information 
he  desired,  he  ordered  me  to  dress  and  to  come  away  with  them. 
They  were  about  an  hour  in  the  house.  When  dressed  and  out- 
side the  house,  1  noticed  a  group  of  officers  some  ten  yards  away, 
apparently  holding  a  consultation.  A  young  soldier  about  17  or 
18   years   took   charge  of   me   at   this   juncture.      He   placed   a   rifle 

to  my  chest  and  said,  'You  1) d,   if   I   had  my  way,  you   would 

not   go  in   the  lorry.      I'd   finish   you   now.' 

"On  being  marched  off,  this  same  soldier  kept  prodding  me  in 
the  spine  from  behind,  as  a  result  of  which  I  am  still  sore.  This 
he  did  all  the  way  to  Greenmount  Cross,  about  150  yards  from 
my  house.  The  party  halted  there,  and  the  same  officer  as  had 
previously  threatened  and  assaulted  me  proceeded  to  start  the 
same  all  over  again.  His  brother  officers  tapped  him  on  the 
shoulders  several  times,  and  apparently  asked  him  to  come  away. 
He  eventually  called  me  to  one  side  from  them  again,  giving  me  a 
further  caution  respecting  the  Republican  Army  and  the  Pipers' 
Band,  stating  that  all  the  people  of  this  country  will  be  mozvn  down  in- 
side another  twelve  months,  as  they — the  Crown  forces — intended  to 
finish  the  business.1  He  then  ordered  me  to  get  away  home.  I  did  so, 
fully  expecting  to  be  shot  at  while  so  doing,  as  this  has  been 
their   usual   custom   under   such    circumstances. 

"On  arriving  home,  I  first  found  that  they  had  entered  by  break- 
ing open  the  door;  they  must  have  done  this  with  some  strong 
instrument,  as  there  was  a  double  lock  and  two  bolts  on  it. 
They  had  taken  away  the  key — for  further  use  presumably.  1 
met  my  wife  in  the  kitchen,  still  undressed.  It  was  then  4  A.  M. 
She  appeared  quite  dazed,  and  could  not  speak  wdien  I  addressed 
her.  The  kitchen  and  one  back  bedroom  appeared  like  refuse 
heaps.  The  back  garden  was  all  dug  up,  and  articles  were  missing 
which  the  subjoined  list  details:  10  knives;  1  silver  and  pearl  bread 
knife;  1  butter-knife;  3  plated  spoons;  1  framed  photograph  of  the 
murdered  Republican  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  Alderman  Tomas  Mac- 
Curtain  ;  1  2-shilling  piece  ;  3  ordinary  life  insurance  books  ;  1  pound 
of  butter;  2  bars  of  soap;  6  boxes  of  matches;  1  large  box  of  boot 
polish;  2  ivory-covered  prayer-books;  1  pound  of  sugar;  a  shilling 
toy  pistol  belonging  to  my  young  son ;  2  pairs  of  gloves. 

"The  party  numbered  about  sixteen  men,  of  whom  six  were 
dressed  in  officers'  clothes,  one  having  a  Glengarry  cap  and  blue 
serge  officers'   suit  with   brass   buttons. 

"I  swear  that  the  above  statement  is  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  and  same  was  given  by  me  volun- 
tarily.     So   help   me    God! 

(Signed)     "Sean  Courtnev. 

"Sworn   in  my  presence  this  4th  day  of  November,   1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Harbor  Commissioner." 


The  italics  are  as  indicated  in  the  original  affidavit. 


754 

RAIDERS  ROB  CITY  HALL  OFFICES 

The  Witness:  The  City  Hall,  of  eourse,  has  been  raided  a  num- 
ber of  times.  Every  other  day  there  is  a  raid  there.  In  the 
course  of  one  raid  there  was  some  money  stolen  from  one  of  the 
men, — from  the  man  of  whom  they  wanted  to  get  my  address.  For 
I  might  say  that  on  these  occasions  when  a  raid  takes  place  on  the 
City  Hall,  all  the  staff  is  paraded  in  the  vestibule,  and  they  are  all 
stood  with  their  hands  up  until  their  pockets  are  searched. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  The  building  is  surrounded  by  the  police 
and  the  military.  A.  Yes,  yes.  I  will  read  the  deposition  of  Mr. 
Sean  Courtney  concerning  the  looting  of  money  and  articles  during 
a  raid  on  the  City  Hall,  the  fourteenth  of  October,  1920.    (Reading)  : 

Affidavit  of  Sean  Courtney 

"About  11:30  A.  M.  on  the  above  date,  on  looking  out  the 
window  of  the  Waterworks  Department,  where  I  am  employed  as 
a  clerk,  I  saw  that  the  building  was  surrounded  by  military  and 
police.  On  the  preceding  day  I  had  a  removal  to  a  new  house ; 
consequently  whatever  money  I  had  at  home  was  transferred  to 
my  pocket.  This  money  consisted  of  £22  in  notes,  including 
one  three-pound  note;  also  a  green  morocco  purse  with  my  name 
blocked  in  gold  on  it.  This  was  presented  to  me  by  my  colleagues 
on  the  Corporation  Staff  on  the  occasion  of  my  marriage  some 
years  ago,  and  contained  fifteen  pounds  in  gold.  A  receipt  for 
a  five-pound  bail  bond  was  also  with  the  cash.  Knowing  the  repu- 
tation of  these  raiders  as  regards  robbery,  I  crossed  the  hall  into 
the  City  Treasurer's  office,  where  I  saw  the  assistant  treasurer 
and  another  clerk,  who  in  my  presence  placed  the  money  in  the 
safe,  which   was  open. 

"Shortly  afterwards  the  entire  staff  was  ordered  by  the  raiders 
from  their  offices,  and  in  their  absence  the  offices  were  looted.  My 
money  was  taken  from  the  Treasurer's  open  safe,  and  my  own 
office  was  like  a  refuse  heap  when  I  got  back.  The  following  ar- 
ticles were  taken  from  mine  and  another  desk:  1  scissors;  1  brush 
and  comb;  1  magnifying  glass;  6  dozen  brass  buttons;  approx- 
imately 6><  dozen  photo  postcards  of  the  Volunteer  Band;  1  cap 
badge  and  1  arm  badge  (miniature  pipes  design);  some  green  rib- 
bon; a  green  poplin  '67'  badge,  given  to  me  by  my  late  father 
(Rest  in  Peace);  an  Agnus  Dei,  taken  from  my  office  coat;  a  cal- 
endar photo  of  the  late  Bishop  O'Dwyer;  and  several  small  souve- 
nirs and  nick-nacks  which  I   kept  in  my  desk. 

"I  might  add  that  on  Saturday,  the  9th  inst,  my  bicycle,  coat, 
and  several  articles,  including  valuable  framed  pictures,  were  de- 
stroyed by  the  fire  in  the  inspection  offices,  which  was  caused  by 
bombing,    etc.,   on    that   morning." 

The  Witness:    This  was  one  of  the  many  attempts  to  destroy  the 

City   Hall    before  the   recent  and  successful    attempt.      (Continues 

reading)  : 

"The  money  that  was  taken  was  to  be  paid  out  for  various 
monthly  household  goods,  and  its  loss  considerably  handicapped 
our  domestic  affairs,  as  it  was  all  we  possessed,  owing  to  the 
difficulty  of  trying  to  make  ends  meet  for  some  years  back  on  a 
small  salary.  I  phoned  the  military  headquarters,  Victoria  Bar- 
racks,  Cork,   immediately,   of  my  loss;   and   soon   afterwards,    ac- 


755 


companied  by  a  friend,  I  interviewed  the  two  officers  who  were 
in  charge  of  the  raiding  party,  at  Victoria  Barracks.  They  prom- 
ised to  look  into  the  matter,  but  I  have  heard  nothing  since 
from  them.  The  total  loss  suffered  by  me  for  the  past  fortnight 
amounts  to  close  on  sixty  pounds. 

"The    raiding   party    was    composed   of    soldiers    of    the    Hampshire 

Regiment,  and  wore  shoulder  badges  with  the  inscription  'Hants.' 

*'I  swear  by  Almighty  God  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  the 

truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth;  and   that  same 

was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God! 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Sean  O'Cuirinn. 
"Sworn  in  my  presence,  dated  this  23d  day  of  October,  1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Harbour  Commissioner, 
"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

IMPRISONMENT  AND  DEATH  THREAT  TO  EXTORT 
INFORMATION 

During  that  same  period  one  of  the  members  of  the  staff  at  the 
City  Hall  was  arrested.  This  is  the  sworn  statement  of  Mr.  John 
Egar,  Clerk  in  the  Highways  Department  of  the  City  Hall,  Cork, 
concerning  his  arrest  and  subsequent  treatment  by  the  military. 
(  Reading)  : 

Affidavit  of  John  Egar 

"I  am  a  clerk  in  the  Highways  Department,  City  Hall,  Cork, 
and  was  at  my  work  on  14th  October,  1920,  in  thai  building. 
During  a  military  raid  there  I  was  searched  in  common  with  the 
other  clerks,  and  finding  on  me  a  ballot  ticket  for  a  drawing,  the 
prize  for  which  was  a  .32  revolver  and  50  rounds  of  ammunition, 
they  arrested  me.     This  was  11:30  A.  M. 

"I  was  taken  in  a  lorry  to  Cork  Military  Barracks,  and  placed 
in  the  guard  room.  When  I  got  out  of  the  lorry  a  sergeant  of 
the  Hampshire  Regiment  wanted  to  know  from  me  who  used  to 
be  in  the  City  Hall  at  night,  dhd  what  was  the  general  run  of 
the  place.  I  said  I  didn't  know,  and  refused  to  give  him  any 
information.  He  said  he  would  give  me  until  the  following  morn- 
ing to  give  him  what  he  wanted  to  know,  if  I  wanted  my  life 
saved.     I  still  refused,  and  they  placed  me  in  the  guard  room. 

"He  gave  me  some  dirty  food  that  night,  stating,  'Take  that, 
you  b ,  you  might  not  be  able  to  eat  it  in  the  morning.'  I  re- 
fused to  touch  it.  The  following  morning  he  repeated  the  ques- 
tioning and  threatening  all  over  again,  using  filthy  language  of 
the  worst  description.  A  civilian  then  came  in  and  took  my  photo- 
graph.    I   was  then  placed  in  a  cell  in  the   detention  barracks. 

"I   was,    on   20th    October,   brought   from   the   cell    for   trial;   on 

my   way    soldiers    from    every    quarter   shouting,    'Shoot    the   

rebel,'  etc.     I  refused  to  recognize  the  court's  jurisdiction  to  try  me. 

"I  was  kept  14  days  in  the  cell  after  this,  awaiting  sentence. 
I  was  then  brought  before  the  Sergeant  Major,  who  told  me  my 
sentence  was  to  be  shot.  This  was  done  to  extract  some  state- 
ment from  me,  believing  I  would  become  frightened;  but  1  re- 
fused to   state  anything.     I   was   then   released. 


756 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge  and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
bill  the  truth,  and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.  So  help 
me   God! 

(Signed)     "John    Egar. 
"Sworn   in  my  presence  this  10th  day  of  November,  1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Poor  Laiv  Guardian." 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  What  was  the  charge  made  against  him,  Mr.  Lord 
Mayor?  A.  The  charge  made  against  him  was  having  in  his  pos- 
session a  raffle  ticket  for  a  revolver. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  As  it  might  possibly  lead  to  being  armed? 
A.     Senator  Norris:   Yes,  if  he  happened  to  win  it! 

BROTHER  ARRESTED   AND   HOME  TERRORIZED 
The  Witness:    This  is  the  statement  of  Miss  Mary  O'Callaghan,  7 
Merrypole  Lane,  Cork.      (Reading): 

Affidavit  of  Mary  O'Callaghan 

"I  live  with  my  brother,  Timothy  O'Callaghan,  at  7  Merrvpole 
Lane,  Cork.  On  27th  October,  1920,  at  10:55  P.  M.,  I  went  to 
the  door  in  response  to  a  light  rap.  Before  I  could  open  it,  it 
was  burst  in.  I  saw  outside  a  military  officer,  two  policemen,  one 
Black-and-Tan,  and  about  a  dozen  soldiers.  The  officer  shouted. 
'Come  out,  CallaghanF  My  brother  Tim  was  in  the  kitchen,  and 
entering,  the  officer  compelled  him  to  put  his  hands  up.  He 
asked  him  was  he  a  Brigade  General  in  the  so-called  Sinn  Fein 
Army.  My  brother  laughed.  The  officer  asked  him  what  he  was. 
He  replied,  'An  Irish  Volunteer.'  He  asked  him  for  his  arms 
and  ammunition,  which  he  had  used  some  time  ago.  My  brother 
said,  'I  never  used  my  arms.'  The  house  was  then  searched,  but 
as  far  as  I  could  see,  nothing  was  found.  About  11:15  P.  M. 
the  party  left,  taking  my  brother  with  them,  partly  dressed.  The 
officer  returned  to  me  and  said,  'Half  an  hour  will  do  all.'  With 
that   he   left. 

"About  half  an  hour  after,  $1  heard  three  shots  fired,  and  I  be- 
lieved my  brother  to  have  been  murdered.  After  this  firing,  a 
soldier  came  back  immediately.  He  was  armed  with  a  rifle  and 
bayonet.  He  compelled  me  to  put  my  hands  over  my  head.  He 
put  the  point  of  the  bayonet  touching  my  stomach,  and  said  in 
a  threatening  manner  that  he  would  rip  me  open  if  I  wouldn't 
give  him  information  about  the  man  Donovan.  This  was  a  man 
which  I  think  was  arrested  in  Barrett's  building  a  few  nights  be- 
forehand. I  said  that  I  could  give  him  no  information,  and  that 
he  could  do  as  he  pleased.  Then  another  soldier  called  him  from 
the  outside,  and  when  he  went  out,  I  ran  out  into  a  neighboring 
house.  I  heard  them  rapping  at  my  door  again.  I  heard  no  more 
after  that,  as   I   retired   for  the   night. 

"The  following  morning  I  went  home,  found  the  door  open, 
and  a  framed  picture  of  Archbishop  Mannix,  and  a  complete  shav- 
ing set  belonging  to  my  brother,  missing.  The  head  was  broken 
off  a  statue  of  the  Sacred  Heart,  and  the  picture  of  the  late 
Lord  Mayor  of  Cork,  Alderman  Terence  MacSwiney,  torn. 

"The  morning  of  the  28th  October  I  went  to  Cork  Military  Bar- 
racks and  inquired  for  my  brother.  The  military  authorities  de- 
nied all  knowledge  of  him,  but  told  me  to  search  the  County  Jail. 


757 

r  did  so,  but  could  not  find  him.  The  following  evening  I  again 
went  to  Cork  Barracks;  they  still  denied  all  knowledge  of  his 
whereabouts.  But  coming  through  the  Barrack  yard  with  an 
escort,  I  identified  a  policeman  going  in  as  one  of  those  present 
at  the  raid.  I  called  him  and  asked  him  wasn't  he  the  person 
who  took  my  brother  that  night.  He  said,  'Yes.'  I  said,  'If 
you  are  a  man,  tell  me  if  ye  have  done  away  with  him,  and  if  so, 
tell  me  where  he  is.'  He  said  that  he  was  the  man  who  took  him 
down  to  the  Detention  Barracks.  I  went  down  and  told  a  ser- 
geant that  I  had  found  proof  that  my  brother  was  there.  He 
tried  to  excuse  the  matter  somehow,  but  admitted  me  to  see  my 
brother  for  about  three  minutes.  As  there  was  a  warder  be- 
tween  us,   our   talk   was    merely   formal. 

"I  ascribe  the  arrest  of  my  brother  to  information  given  by 
the  informer,  'Mr.  Walsh.'  I  was  coming  from  the  barrack  gate 
on  2d  November.  I  saw1  Michael  Walsh  going  in  towards  the 
Barrack.  He  said,  'Hallo,  Mary!'  I  made  him  no  answer.  He 
swore  frightfully  and  said,  'I'll  pin  him  as  round  as  a  hoop,  and 
it  will  be  a  long  time  before  you  will  see  him.  We  have  the 
long  fellow  at  last.'     He  alluded,  of  course,  to  ray  brother  Tim. 

"On  8th  October  at  3:50  P.  M.  I  spoke;  again  to  my  brother. 
He  told  me  that  he  was  brought  before  Michael  Walsh  by  an 
officer  that  morning.  Michael  Walsh  swore  his  life  away,  and 
said  that  my  brother  was  the  man  who  held  a  six-chamber  re- 
volver in  his  hands,  and  gave  the  orders  to  fire,  the  night  he, 
Michael  Walsh,  was  attacked,  but  escaped,  at  Blarney  Street. 
As  my  brother  was  with  me  that  night  in  question,  I  know  he 
was  not  concerned  in  that  incident.  My  brother  could  bring 
ample  proof  to  establish  a  complete  alibi,  and  will  inform  the 
military  court  of  such;  but  as  a  soldier  of  the  Irish  Republic  he 
will  refuse  to  plead  or  recognize  the  court's  jurisdiction  to  try 
him. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my 
ability  and  knowledge,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing 
hut  the  truth.     So  help  me  God  ! 

(Signed)     "Mary  O'Callaghan. 
"Sworn    in   my   presence   this   11th   day   of   November,    1920. 
(Signed   in   Gaelic)     "Sean   O'Morda, 

"District  Registrar  for  Cork  City." 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  became  of  that  man?  Was  he 
finally  killed,  or  was  he  released?  A.  I  have  not  got  any  further 
facts  about  him.  He  probably  will  be  held  for  some  months,  and 
then  either  released  or  tried,  if  they  are  able  to  fix  up  some  charge 
in  the  meantime.     I  think  that  is  all  now. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  That  finishes  the  depositions  in  regard 
to  raids  that  you  have  here?  A.  Yes.  There  are  some  others 
there  that  I  mean  to  put  in,  that  I  have  not  read. 

Chairman  Wood:  Then  suppose  we  adjourn  until  2:15  this 
afternoon. 


2:30  P.  M. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  session  will  come  to  order.     We  are 
to  continue  this  afternoon  with  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork. 


758 

BRITAIN  BETRAYS  PLEDGE  TO  IRISH  SOLDIERS 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  During  the  war  Ireland  contributed  her  share  of 
soldiers  to  the  Allied  cause,  in  proportion  to  those  of  other  nations; 
and  I  want  to  know  what  is  the  attitude  of  the  returned  soldiers  of 
Ireland  who  fought  for  the  Allies  towards  the  Irish  Republic. 
A.  Oh,  the  vast  majorty, — I  can  practically  say  unanimously 
through  the  country,  they  are  with  the  Republican  movement,  and  in 
many  instances  are  actively  engaged  for  the  new  Republic. 

Q.  Do  we  understand  that  they  accepted  seriously  the  statement 
made  by  the  British  Prime  Minister  that  one  of  the  purposes  of  the 
war  was  to  defend  the  rights  of  small  nationalities?  A.  Abso- 
lutely, sir.  They  are  pretty  well  unanimous  that  they,  in  their 
manner  of  being  drawn  into  the  fight,  into  the  war,  were 
fooled  by  England.  These  men  really  fought,  I  will  not  say  in  all 
cases,  but  certainly  in  the  vast  majority  of  cases,  these  men  believed 
what  was  told  to  them  by  the  representatives  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment, and  in  the  second  instance,  unfortunately,  by  men  who  were 
public  figures  in  Ireland.  They  accepted  the  fact  that  by  going  out 
to  fight  in  the  late  war  they  went  out  to  fight  for  Ireland  as  definitely 
and  clearly  as  possible;  and  that  one  of  the  certain  results  of  vic- 
tory in  that  war  would  be  Ireland's  independence.  They  see  now 
that  they  were  fooled  in  that  respect,  and  they  are  one  now  with 
their  fellow-countrymen  and  women  in  the  fight  at  home.  A  num- 
ber of  cases  where  men  have  been  shot  and  wounded  have  been  of 
men  who  have  fought  in  the  war  as  soldiers.  1 

WAR  VETERANS  WILL  SUFFER  FROM 
WITHDRAWAL  OF  GRANTS 

Q.  You  said  today  in  your  testimony  that  the  British  Govern- 
ment had  withdrawn  the  grants  made  to  local  authorities,  including 
hospitals,  workhouses,  and  asylums.  Now,  does  that  mean,  there- 
fore, that  the  British  Government  have  refused  to  support  the 
soldiers  who  fought  for  it  and  for  the  allies,  because  they  happened 
to  be  placed  in  hospitals  and  asylums  in  Ireland?  A.  In  so  far  as 
these  men  need  those  institutions,  it  does  mean  that.  Of  course 
there  are  some  of  these  men  who  are  in  receipt  of  pensions  from  the 
British  Government.  The  pensions,  of  course,  are  inadequate,  and 
in  most  cases  these  men  find  themselves  in  actual  want,  with  the 
result  that  they  are  organized  in  ex-soldiers'  organizations  with  a 
view  to  improving  their  own  situation.  But  so  far  as  these  men 
require  or  may  require  the  services  of  any  of  these  institutions,  it  is 
true  that  the  British  Government,  by  withholding  the  grants,  has 
curtailed  and  is  curtailing  the  efficiency  of  these  institutions. 

1  See  Turner  case. 


759 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  many  Irish  soldiers  were  in  the  war? 
A.     Seventy  thousand. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  Seventy  thousand  soldiers  from  Ireland, 
as  apart  from  soldiers  of  Irish  birth. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  North  and  south  Ireland  both?      A.     Yes. 

Q.     You  mean  volunteers?      A.     Yes,  certainly. 

Q.     There  was  no  conscription  in  Ireland?      A.     No. 

Q.  There  were  many  Irish  soldiers  in  the  British  army  before 
the  war?     A.     Yes. 

Q-  But  these  volunteered  to  serve  England  during  the  war. 
A,      Yes, 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  And  these  volunteers  relied  on  the  promises  of 
the  Britsih  Prime  Minister  and  the  British  statesmen  of  that  time? 
A.     "\  es.  absolutely. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  do  we  understand  that  iIip  upkeep 
ol  those  who  had  been  wounded,  who  had  been  rendered  insane,  who 
suffered  from  pas  shock  and  other  conditions  of  war,  have  been 
denied  the  help  of  these  grants?  A.  That  is  true  so  far  as  the  men 
will  have  to  be  denied  the  services  of  these  institutions  which  depend 
upon  the  grants  for  a  large  part  of  their  support. 

Q.  It  practically  means  that  the  British  Government  has  dis- 
carded the  soldiers  who  fought  for  it  from  Ireland.     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  first  place,  as  far  as  the  services  of  these  institutions 
are  concerned  in  a  general  way,  and  in  the  second  place,  regarding 
the  treatment  of  their  wounds?  A.  That  is  so;  but  I  cannot  say 
whether  the  British  Government  has  made  arrangements  for  a 
special  means  of  treatment  or  not.  But  in  so  far  as  the  withdrawal 
of  their  grants  is  concerned,  the  British  Government  has  made  it  im- 
possible for  them  to  assist  anybody,  which  includes  soldiers. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  these  institutions  help  children  as  well? 
A.  Well,  in  most  cases  there  are  separate  institutions  for  children. 
But  in  the  hospitals  there  are  separate  wards  for  children. 

Q.  How  are  these  separate  institutions  maintained?  A.  Some 
of  them  are  in  receipt  of  voluntary  contributions,  and  some  of  them 
get  in  addition  grants  from  local  bodies. 

Q.  But  these  institutions,  they  have  been  supported  more  or 
less,  in  whole  or  in  part,  by  grants  that  help  to  maintain  them  in 
their  care  of  the  children, — of  course  they  will  suffer  by  the  with- 
drawal of  those  grants.  A.  Oh,  undoubtedly,  yes,  unless  the  local 
authorities  are  able,  by  some  means  or  other,  to  make  up  those 
deficiencies.  One  of  those  grants  was  a  grant  providing,  during  the 
last  year  or  two  years,  I  think,  for  the  giving  of  free  milk  to  school 
children.  That  grant,  of  course,  has  been  withdrawn.  Half  was 
supplied  by  the  Local  Government  Board  and  the  other  half  by  the 
local  authorities.  The  local  authorities  will  either  have  to  provide 
the  balance,  or  discontinue  the  service. 


760 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  that  true  just  in  Cork,  or  pretty  well  all 
over  Ireland?  A.  Well,  pretty  well  throughout  the  larger  cities. 
It  is  true  in  Cork  and  the  larger  cities. 

GRANTS  STILL  GIVEN  TO  UNIONIST  COUNTIES 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  whether  the  withdrawal  of 
those  grants  has  occurred  in  Belfast?  A.  In  Belfast,  no.  Only  in 
those  cities  that  have  severed  their  connection  with  the  Local  Gov- 
ernment Board.     Belfast  has  not  done  that. 

Q.  You  told  us  this  morning  that  29  counties  had  declared  their 
allegiance  to  the  Irish  Republic.  How  many  have  not  severed  their 
connection  with  England?  A.  There  are  four.  There  are  32 
counties  in  Ireland,  but  in  Tipperary  there  are  two  county  councils. 
The  Unionist  counties  are  Antrim,  with  Belfast;  County  Down, 
Derry,  and  Armagh. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Have  any  counties  since  taken  any 
steps  looking  towards  the  repudiation  of  recognition  of  Dail  Eireann 
in  the  hopes  of  getting  grants?  \.  I  did  not  understand  your 
question. 

Q.  Have  any  of  the  counties  which  recognized  Dail  Eireann 
taken  steps  looking  towards  a  reconsideration  of  that  action  because 
of  their  failure  to  get  grants  from  the  British  Government?  A.  I 
remember  one  case,  the  Galway  Urban  Council,  I  think.  It  was 
discussed  as  to  the  possibility  of  continuing  without  the  grants.  But 
to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  nothing  was  done  about  the  matter. 
I  am  not  aware  of  any  case  where  the  repudiation  of  Dail  Eireann 
has  been  discussed  in  any  matter. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Then,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  insofar  as  the  attitude  of 
the  British  Government  in  Ireland  today  is  concerned,  one  of  their 
methods  is  the  withholding  of  their  support  from  the  soldiers  who 
fought  for  England  and  the  Allies  who  happen  to  be  in  any  of  these 
counties  in  Ireland  where  the  Republican  Government  functions? 
A.    Yes,  as  far  as  I  have  just  said. 

Q.  Do  you  want  to  say  anything  more  about  that,  Mr.  Lord 
Mayor?  A.  Well,  there  have  been  a  number  of  cases, — I  will  get 
to  them  later  on, — where  the  men  who  have  been  shot  or  wounded 
in  Ireland  have  been  ex-soldiers  who  fought  for  England  during 
the  war. 

IMPARTIAL  JUDGMENTS  OF  REPUBLICAN  COURTS 

There  is  one  instance  in  regard  to  the  courts  of  Ireland  that  I 
might  mention  as  an  example  of  the  extent  to  which  these  courts 
are  functioning  and  the  cases  which  they  deal  with,  as  well  as  the 
impartiality  of  their  judgments.  The  scheme  of  courts  under  the 
Republic  is  different  from  the  English  Government  scheme.  The 
city  is  divided  into  parishes,  and  each  parish  has  its  parish  court, 


761 

and  for  the  entire  district  there  is  a  district  court.  The  parish  court 
deals  with  minor  cases  and  cases  involving  money  up  to  ten  pounds. 
The  district  courts  deal  with  cases  of  money  upwards  of  ten  pounds, 
and  also  appeals  from  the  parish  courts,  and  ordinary  cases  of  a 
more  important  nature  than  those  which  would  be  dealt  with  by 
the  parish  courts.  There  is  as  well  the  High  Court,  which  goes 
on  circuit.  In  our  District  Court  in  Cork  I  myself  have  pre- 
sided in  a  case  of  slander  against  a  curate  in  Dunmore,  Father 
Sheehan.  one  of  whose  parishioners  sued  him  for  slander.  The 
action  had  been  tried  in  the  British  courts  in  Dublin  without  re- 
sults, and  the  case  came  on  to  us.  There  was  immense  interest  in 
the  case.  All  told,  it  occupied  three  clays.  Despite  the  relative 
standing  of  the  plaintiff  and  the  defendant,  the  verdict  in  that  case 
was  that  the  Reverend  Father  Sheehan  was  found  guilty  and  fined. 
Both  fine  and  costs  were  imposed  upon  him. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  About  what  date  was  that?  A.  This 
would  be  roughly  about  seven  or  eight  months  since, — about  March 
or  April. 

BRITISH  SEEK  TO  SUPPRESS  REPUBLICAN  COURTS 

Q.  In  spite  of  the  publicity,  there  was  no  interference?  A.  No. 
At  that  time  the  functioning  of  the  courts  was  not  much  interfered 
with.  They  functioned  with  impunity,  and  did  for  about  six  months 
afterwards.  It  was  only  then  that  the  campaign  of  repression  began, 
and  continues  up  to  this  time.  From  that  time  on  it  was  impossible 
to  hold  the  courts  except  the  places  of  meeting  were  held  absolutely 
secret.  Raids  on  the  courts,  whenever  the  British  authorities  got  any 
information  about  where  they  were  to  be  held,  were  frequent;  and 
all  present,  including  the  arbitrators  and  solicitors,  were  searched, 
and  in  many  cases  the  arbitrators  as  well  as  the  solicitors  were 
arrested.  So  that  the  ordinary  public  sittings  became  secret,  and  if 
it  is  a  matter  requiring  a  jury,  it  is  necessary  to  keep  the  venue 
secret. 

REPUBLICAN  COURTS  FUNCTION  THROUGHOUT 
MOST   OF  RELAND 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  These  court  officials  are  not  called 
judges. — they  are  arbitrators?      A.     Yes,  arbitrators. 

Q.  And  they  are  not  necessarilv  people  learned  in  the  law? 
\.  No.  People  in  the  High  Court  in  Dublin  are.  but  in  the  lower 
courts  they  are  not. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  In  this  case  you  speak  of,  was  the  fine  paid? 
A.     The  fine  was  paid. 

Q.     There  was  no  appeal?      A.     No  appeal. 

Q.     What   is   the   higher    court   you   speak   of?     A.      The    High 


762 

Court  is  composed  of  legal  men, — men  who  have  belonged  to  the 
bar  profession  under  English  Law. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  To  what  extent  are  the  courts  functioning  today? 
A.  The  courts  today  are  functioning  under  the  same  arrangements, 
but  they  are  not  functioning  publicly,  as  they  were. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  how  can  it  be  secret  when  you  have  to 
have  both  sides,  and  you  have  to  get  witnesses?  A.  Well,  that  is 
obviously  the  difficulty.  Both  sides  must  know  of  it.  There  is  the 
greatest  danger — a  constant  danger — that  the  court  will  be  raided 
and  those  present  arrested. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  This  case  you  spoke  of  about  the 
priest:  did  I  understand  that  someone  had  the  priest  arrested  for 
slander?      A.     Not  arrested,  sir,  charged. 

Q.  Charged.  And  he  was  found  guilty  by  this  court?  A.  He 
was  found  guilty  by  this  court. 

Q.  What  part  of  Ireland  was  this  court  sitting  in?  A.  In  the 
city  of  Cork. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Over  what  proportion  of  Ireland  do  these 
courts  now  function?  A.  They  cover  the  whole  country  except  a 
little  patch  in  the  north. 

Q.     Except  the  four  counties?     A.     Except  the  four  counties. 

Q.  And  no  courts  function  in  those  four  counties  at  all? 
A.  There  would  be  courts  in  those  four  counties  in  particular  dis- 
tricts. I  am  not  familiar  with  the  districts,  but  I  know  that  in  some 
districts  they  are  functioning  even  there. 

Q.     Down  in  Tyrone?     A.    Yes,  Tyrone. 

PEOPLE  REFUSE  TO  USE  ENGLISH  COURTS 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  What  is  the  difference  between  these  courts  and 
the  English  Courts?  A.  Under  the  English  system  there  was  what 
used  to  be  called  a  police  court  presided  over  by  a  resident 
magistrate.  Petty  sessions  were  held  in  some  districts  fortnightly; 
in  some  cases  monthly.  In  the  cities  or  towns  they  were  held  daily. 
They  dealt  with  the  minor  cases  that  arise  in  every  community. 
These  cases  still  exist,  of  course,  but  they  are  not  brought  into  the 
English  courts.  It  is  only  very,  very  rarely  that  any  case  is  brought 
before  them.  They  still  sit  formally,  but  when  there  used  to  be 
cases  brought  before  them  every  day,  now  they  may  sit  for  a  week, 
and  the  paper  simply  says,  "Mr.  So-and-So  sat  in  the  court  today. 
There  were  no  cases  for  hearing."  It  is  only  very,  very  rarely  that 
a  case  comes  before  these  courts  for  hearing. 

The  assizes  for  Cork  were  held  for  the  southern  counties.  That 
usually  took  in  Cork,  Tipperary,  and  Limerick.  The  last  assizes 
held  sat  in  Dublin,  for  Dublin  and  Dublin  County  and  for  all  the 
southern  district.  There  was  no  court  held  in  Cork.  There  were  no 
new  cases.     They  were  old  cases  which  had  been  hanging  for  some 


763 

time.  There  were  very  few  if  any  new  cases,  but  no  ease,  as  I  remem- 
ber, that  had  been  voluntarily  brought  before  the  court  by  any  of 
the  people  of  Ireland.  So  that  in  that  way  the  function  of  the 
British  courts  is  really  approaching  a  termination. 

BRITISH  COURTS-MARTIAL  SUPPLANT  CIVIL 
COURTS 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Is  it  not  true,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  that  the  military 
tribunals  have  practically  taken  the  place  today  of  the  courts? 
A.  Yes,  absolutely  in  all  cases  where  arrests  are  made  now  during 
raids  and  such  operations,  which  in  the  ordinary  course  would  have 
come  before  either  the  minor  court — the  resident  magistrate's  court. 
or  in  certain  cases  where  the  charge  was  a  serious  one  and  where 
it  would  have  got  before  a  court  of  assize  presided  over  by  a  judge 
of  assize,  they  are  all  taken  before  courts-martial. 

Q.  In  other  words,  they  cannot  get  a  jury  to  sit  for  the  British 
courts?  A.  Yes,  that  is  the  reason  they  withdrew  the  last  assize 
from  the  southern  district.  The  last  assizes,  they  said,  have  failed  to 
get  a  jury.  None  of  the  jurors  turned  up,  except  two  or  three,  I 
think:  and  all  the  jurors  were  fined. 

CORONERS'  INQUESTS  PROHIBITED  BY  BRITAIN 

As  well  as  taking  over  the  functions  of  the  regular  courts,  they 
have  also  taken  over  the  functions  of  the  coroners'  courts.  The 
British  Government  rendered  a  proclamation  making  it  illegal  to 
hold  a  coroner's  court.  These  coroners'  courts  were  provided  by  the 
British  authorities  themselves.  The  coroners  were  nominated  by  the 
county  councils,  but  their  nomination  had  to  be  ratified  by  the 
British  Government.  For  eight  or  nine  months  it  has  been  rendered 
illegal  for  these  coroners  to  hold  an  inquest,  except  by  special 
authority  from  the  British  Government.  And  since  then  inquests 
have  been  held  by  courts-martial.  It  is  not  deemed  a  court-martial. 
It  is  called  a  court  of  inquiry,  but  it  is  the  same  as  a  court-martial, 
presided  over  by  three  military  authorities.  There  have  been  some 
inquests  held.  In  the  country  there  have  been  three  held;  but  it  is 
very  difficult  except  in  cases  connected  with  the  national  fight,  be- 
cause where  a  case  occurs,  the  body  is  taken  possession  of  by  the 
military  authorities,  and  they  hold  a  military  inquest. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Was  the  inquest  over  Lord  Mayor  Mac- 
Curtain's  body  the  last  of  the  inquests?  A.  That  was  the  last 
inquest.     That  was. 

DECREASE  OF  LITIGATION  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  the  volume  of  civil  litigation  in  Ireland 
has  greatly  diminished?      I  mean  the  appeals  to  the  Sinn  Fein   or 


764 

Republican  courts  and  the  cases  brought  before  the  so-called  Eng- 
lish courts  added  together  would  indicate  that  there  is  much  less 
litigation  in  Ireland  than  there  has  been  for  the  last  two  or  three 
years.  A.  Yes,  litigation  has  decreased,  which  is  a  good  thing  in 
itself. 

Q.  Well,  that  may  be  a  good  thing  for  Mr.  Doyle.  But  my 
feeling  is, — Is  it  your  feeling  that  the  struggle  of  the  Irish  people 
for  their  freedom  is  occupying  all  their  energies,  and  they  have  no 
time  for  litigation  between  themselves;  or  is  it  because  life  generally 
has  become  more  stagnant,  and  there  is  not  so  much  chance  for 
litigation?  A.  No,  the  former  is  the  reason.  I  don't  know  that 
life  has  become  stagnant  in  Ireland  in  any  way. 

ENFORCEMENT  OF  BRITISH   LAWS  BY  MILITARY 
FORCE 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  before  you  finish  up  the  ques- 
tion of  courts,  military  law  is  practically  the  only  way  the  British 
Government  has  of  enforcing  any  of  its  decrees,  except  in  the  north- 
east corner  of  Ireland.     Is  that  correct?     A.     I  beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  I  say,  is  it  not  true  that  the  only  way  the  British  Government 
has  to  enforce  its  decrees  in  Ireland,  with  the  exception  of  a  small 
section  in  the  northeast  part  of  the  country,  is  by  military  force? 
A.     Oh,  yes,  absolutely. 

Q.  So  that  there  is  no  civil  remedy  for  any  Irishman  in  Ireland 
today  unless  he  gets  that  remedy  in  a  Republican  court?  A.  Out- 
side of  that  small  section  that  you  referred  to,  that  is  quite  correct. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Does  the  Coercion  Bill  apply  to 
northeast  Ulster?  A.  No.  The  particular  counties  to  which  the 
writ  was  applied  were  classified  in  the  order. 

CORONERS'  JURIES  IMPANELLED  BY  ACCUSED 
POLICE 

I  suppose  what  led  to  the  suppression  of  the  coroners'  juries  were 
some  of  the  verdicts  they  brought  in.  But  the  juries  that  had  lis- 
tened to  sworn  evidence, — where  they  had  listened  to  the  evidence, 
the  verdicts  they  had  to  bring  in  in  many  cases  were  of  wilful 
murder  against  the  police.  For  instance,  I  have  here  some  of  the 
verdicts  brought  in  by  these  coroners'  juries  following  an  inquest. 
I  don't  know  whether  it  is  understood  here  how  our  coroners'  juries 
are  conducted. 

0.  Chairman  Wood:  How  is  the  coroner  appointed?  A.  In  the 
first  place,  he  is  nominated  by  the  county  council  or  the  corpora- 
tion, as  the  case  may  be,  and  the  nomination  must  be  ratified  by  the 
British  Local  Government  Board.  So  that,  in  the  first  place,  while 
he  is  nominated  by  a  local  body,  he  is  an  appointee  of  the  Govern- 


765 

merit.     And  he  sits  with  a  jury  that  is  impanelled  by  the  local  police, 
and  all  the  evidence  given  at  the  inquest  is  given  under  oath. 

Q.  How  is  the  jury  impanelled  by  the  local  police?  Is  there 
some  method  of  taking  a  large  number  of  names  and  putting  them 
in  a  box  and  choosing  from  that?  A.  No,  they  pick  the  jury 
indiscriminately-  from  the  voters  in  the  district.  The  usual  custom 
is  to  summon  about  twenty  men,  and  the  first  twelve  who  are  called 
and  are  present  are  sworn  as  the  jury.  Sometimes  there  is  an  extra 
man  or  two  sworn  in  case  there  is  any  accident  to  any  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  jury  during  the  hearing.  The  evidence  then  is  sworn, 
and  the  jurors  are  to  bring  in  a  verdict  in  accordance  with  the 
evidence  which  they  hear. 

Q.  Then  in  case  the  police  would  perhaps  be  the  parties  accused 
and  against  whom  the  verdict  would  be  found,  they  are  also  the 
people  who  select  the  jury  who  bring  in  the  verdict?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  You  would  think  that  the  people  they  would  select  would  be 
as  favorable  to  the  police  as  any  people  that  could  be  found  in  the 
community.  A.  That  would  be  so.  But  of  course  these  people, 
when  they  are  sworn  to  bring  in  a  verdict  in  accordance  with  the 
evidence  which  they  hear,  they  cannot  well  do  anything  else. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  police  do  you  mean?  A.  The  local 
police,  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary.  They  are  responsible  for 
having  a  jury  in  court  for  the  coroners'  inquests. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  do  you  know  whether  they  select  in  those 
lists  people  whom  they  think  will  be  favorable  or  otherwise?  A. 
Yes.  that  is  quite  notorious.  In  cases  where  their  own  service  is 
likely  to  be  involved,  they  will  select  men  who  have  been  on  the 
police  force, — ex-policemen  or  police  pensioners.  In  some  cases 
that  has  been  notoriously  so. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Some  of  my  friends  who  are  not  particu- 
larly friendly  to  this  inquiry  have  suggested  to  me  that  the  reason  it 
is  so  unanimous  in  Ireland  is  because  everybody  is  intimidated  by 
Sinn  Fein.  I  was  wondering  if  you  had  heard  any  complaint  by  the 
friends  of  these  jurors  that  they  have  been  compelled  to  find  ver- 
dicts against  the  Crown  forces  so  unanimously,  as  our  records  show 
they  do,  because  of  fear  of  violence  by  the  populace.  A.  No,  sir, 
I  have  never  heard  of  such  a  case,  no  matter  what  the  occasion.  I 
have  never  heard  of  any  case  where  there  was  any  threatening  or 
anything  of  that  sort. 

Q.  You  have  never  heard  that  these  coroners'  juries  were  influ- 
enced in  rendering  their  verdicts  otherwise  than  by  the  evidence 
presented  to  them?  A.  Absolutely;  and  by  virtue  of  their  oath 
they  must  do  so. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  I  want  some  of  these  cases  cleared 
up.  Suppose  a  murder  was  committed  by  a  state  policeman  or  a 
member  of  the  constabulary, — I  say  state  policemen  because  we  have 


766 

them  in  our  state.  A  member  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary 
would  be  accused  of  the  crime.  Would  this  same  member  of  the 
constabulary  be  permitted  to  pick  the  jury?    A.    That  is  the  law,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  simply  means  that  the  accused  would  be  permitted 
to  pick  his  own  jury  to  try  him.  A.  Well,  it  would  not  be  quite 
that,  because  the  solicitor  of  the  next  of  kin  had  the  right  of 
challenge.  But  so  far  as  the  jury  as  a  whole  is  concerned,  it  would 
mean  that. 

Q.  But  the  jury  could  really  be  fixed  by  the  accused,  could  it 
not?     A.     It  could  be  that. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  it  would  depend  upon  whom  it  was. 
They  might  be  entirely  disinterested.  A.  Yes,  that  is  true.  But 
in  these  cases  where1  it  is  a  notorious  fact  that  the  police  are  the 
murderers,  an  effort  can  be  made  to  get  a  jury  which  will  not  be 
unfavorable  to  them. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  what  I  mean  is  that  in  ordinary  cases 
there  is  no  undue  influence  exerted  upon  the  juries  by  the  police? 
A.     Oh,  no,  sir. 

Commissioner  Maurer:  I  think  it  would  be  well  to  keep  that  under 
cover.     I  am  afraid  they  might  start  to  do  that  in  Pennsylvania. 

Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Maurer,  we  are  not  quite  as  bad  as  that. 

VERDICTS  OF  CORONERS'  JURIES  CONDEMN 
MURDERS  COMMITTED  BY  BRITISH  FORCES 

The  Witness:  Let  me  read  this  case,  John  O'Conneli  of  County 
Cork.  On  Thursday,  August  27,  1920,  a  coroner's  jury  at  Kanturk, 
County  Cork,  returned  the  following  verdict: 

"The  Jury  have  unanimously  agreed  that  John  O'Conneli  was  bru- 
taljy  and  deliberately  murdered  by  the  military  accompanied  by  police 
at  Derrygallon  on  Monday,  August  16,  1920.  In  the  case  of  Patrick 
Clancy  death  was  caused"  by  a  bayonet  thrust  as  described  by  the 
doctors." 

The  Witness:  The  British  military  report  had  stated  that  John 
O'Conneli  and  Patrick  Clancy  were  both  shot  down  while  trying  to 
escape  arrest.      (Continues  reading)  : 

"We  strongly  condemn  the  action  of  the  military,  more  especially 
as  they  could  have  taken  deceased  alive  if  they  so  wanted,  and  more 
especially  still  as  there  was  no  evidence  produced  by  the  Crown  or 
any  other  one  to  support  the  theory  that  there  was  any  attack  made 
on  the  military  by  the  deceased.  .  .  .  We  call  upon  General  Sir  Nevil 
Macready,  Mr.  Lloyd  George,  and  Mr.  Bonar  Law  to  bring  the  perpe- 
trators of  these  foul  murders  to  justice.  It  has  been  proved  to  the 
satisfaction  of  the  jury  by  the  evidence  at  the  inquest  that  the  bullets 
used  by  the  murderers  at  Derrygallon  were  flat-nosed,  which  is  an 
infringement  of  international  law." 


767 

HOW  PRISONERS  ARE  SHOT  "ATTEMPTING  TO 
ESCAPE" 

That  particular  practice  of  shooting  men  while  prisoners  and 
then  alleging  that  they  were  shot  in  an  effort  to  escape  was  carried 
out  even  then,  when  coroners'  courts  were  functioning.  But  since 
the  coroners'  courts  have  been  abrogated,  it  has  become  very,  very 
frequent,  and  it  is  one  of  the  most  frequent  forms  now  in  which 
murder  is  carried  out  by  the  British  Government  in  Ireland.  In 
most  cases,  even  without  a  tittle  of  evidence,  the  very  story  itself 
carries  its  own  contradiction,  because  it  is  so  very  obviously  and 
patently  ridiculous  that  a  man  or  two  men,  being  carried  away  in  a 
military  lorry  surrounded  by  military  forces  fully  armed  and  watch- 
ing them  and  with  nothing  else  to  do  but  watch  them,  and  while  the 
lorry  is  moving  along  to  the  nearest  barracks,  it  is  ridiculous  that 
this  man  or  these  men  would  make  an  effort  to  escape  from  that 
lorry,  because  the  military  would  certainly  shoot  them.  But  since 
these  coroners'  inquests  have  been  abrogated,  it  is  very,  very  fre- 
quent. One  case  is  of  two  brothers  named  Buckley  arrested  in 
Midleton,  County  Cork,  last  August.  These  fine  young  men  were 
arrested  in  the  ordinary  way  and  put  in  a  lorry  surrounded  by  men 
fully  armed,  and  proceeded  towards  Cork.  I  will  just  read  this, 
the  deposition  of  one  of  the  brothers.  On  the  way  shots  were  fired, 
and  both  of  the  brothers  were  wounded,  one  fatally.  No  effort  was 
made  by  them  to  escape.  But  on  arriving  at  Cork  they  were  both 
taken  to  the  military  hospital  attached  to  the  military  barracks  in 
Cork,  where  one  died  and  the  other  recovered  and  was  later  released 
because  they  could  not  find  any  charge  against  him.  The  particular 
story  given  out  was  that  these  two  men  were  arrested  and  were  being 
brought  to  Cork,  and  in  attempting  to  escape  were  shot  in  so  doing. 

LLOYD  GEORGE  IGNORES  ACCUSATIONS  OF 
JURIES 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  before  you  read  that,  I  want  to 
ask  about  what  became  of  the  verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury  that 
called  upon  Mr.  Lloyd  George  and  General  Sir  Nevil  Macready  to 
stop  the  murders  committed  by  their  agents  in  Ireland.  What 
answer  was  ever  made?     A.     Oh,  none;  none  absolutely  at  all. 

Q.  They  paid  no  attention  to  it?  A.  None  absolutely.  The 
same  was  true  of  the  verdict  in  the  case  of  the  murder  of  Lord 
Mayor  MacCurtain,  where  the  verdict  entered  charged  Mr.  Lloyd 
George  himself  in  it. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  Senator  Norris  a  question  in  that  case.  The 
verdict  of  the  coroner's  jury  in  that  case  accused  Mr.  Lloyd  George 
of  murder.     Would  he  not  be  debarred  from  the  Lnited  Stales?     A. 


768 

Senator  Norris:    I   don't   know.      I    am   afraid    our   Department   of 
State  would  make  its  own   immigration  laws  for  him. 

Chairman  Wood :  I  am  afraid  we  will  be  encumbering  our  record 
with  an  arraignment  of  our  own  state  instead  of  investigating  con- 
ditions in  Ireland. 

HANDCUFFED  PRISONERS  WANTONLY  SHOT 

The  Witness:  This  is  the  deposition  of  this  young  man  Buckley. 
(Reading)  : 

Sworn  Testimony  of  Batt.  Buckley,  Ballyedmond,  Midleton,  County 
Cork 

"On  Friday  morning,  27th  August,  1920,  at  the  hour  of  1  A.  M., 
I  was  awakened  by  very  loud  knocking  at  the  door.  My  brother  Sean 
and  myself  were  sleeping  in  the  one  room;  we  got  up  and  dressed, 
then  came  downstairs.  My  father  had  come  down  before  us  and  had 
the  door  opened.  Two  policemen,  one  of  whom  was  Constable  Clancy 
of  Midleton  Police  Barracks,  and  a  Cameron  officer,  entered.  About 
twenty-five  Cameron  soldiers  who  accompanied  them  surrounded  the 
house  outside. 

"A  thorough  search  of  the  house  was  proceeded  with  for  about  an 
hour  and  ten  minutes  by  the  officer  and  a  sergeant  of  the  Camerons. 
The  officer  then  placed  my  brother  and  myself  under  arrest,  without 
charging  us  with  any  offense.  We  were  taken  on  foot  by  the  entire 
party  to  the  military  headquarters  at  Midleton,  which  is  occupied  by 
Camerons.  We  were  handcuffed  there  and  left  in  the  guard-room 
until  evening,  when  we  were  removed  about  6  P.  M.  During  the 
interval  we  were  at  the  military  barracks,  the  handcuffs  were  kept  on 
us  for  ten  hours,  but  our  treatment  otherwise  while  in  the  barracks 
was  quite  normal. 

"At  6  P.  M.  we  were  placed  in  a  military  motor  lorry  in  charge  of 
a  Cameron  officer  and  about  ten  Cameron  soldiers,  and  the  lorry  pro- 
ceeded along  the  main  road  leading  to  Cork.  We  were  both  handcuffed 
separately  and  were  sitting  on  the  floor  of  the  lorry.  I  was  at  the  rear 
of  the  lorry  and  my  brother  Sean  was  at  the  front,  both  of  us  facing 
in  the  direction  from  which  we  had  come.  About  half  a  mile  outside 
the  town  I  heard  my  brother  cry  out,  and  immediately  a  sharp  revolver 
shot  rang  out.  The  shout  from  my  brother  was  in  all  probability 
occasioned  by  his  seeing  his  assailant  levelling  the  revolver  at  him. 
A  second  shot  followed  almost  instantly,  and  I  fell  in  the  lorry,  shot 
through  the  right  shoulder.  I  gave  no  provocation  whatsoever  for 
this  shot,  and  my  brother  gave  none  either.  We  were  both  sitting 
quite  still,  and  were  making  no  effort  to  escape,  as  is  alleged  by  the 
military. 

"An  hour  and  a  half  later,  we  were  both  admitted  to  the  military 
hospital,  Victoria  Barracks,  Cork.  During  our  journey  to  Cork,  the 
military  left  us  lying  in  the  lorry  and  never  approached  us  to  ascertain 
the  extent  of  our  injuries,  or  to  succor  us  in  any  way;  neither  did 
they  speak — even  among  themselves — after  firing  the  shots,  until  we 
reached  the  hospital.  As  my  brother  uttered  no  sound  during  the 
journey  to  Cork,  I  believe  he  was  unconscious  all  this  time.  I  suffered 
great  agony  from  the  wound  in  my  shoulder,  but  did  not  speak.  When 
we  reached  the  hospital  we  were  placed  in  a  ward,  and  our  wounds 
attended  to.     My  brother  died  almost  immediately  on  being  admitted. 

"On  10th  November,  1920,  I  was  released  from  the  hospital  without 
any  charge  being  preferred  against  me,  or  being  tried  in  any  way. 
My  right  arm  from  the  elbow  down  is  still  lifeless,  and  I  am  unable  to 


769 

move  my  fingers.  I  have  to  use  a  crutch  also,  as  my  right  leg  is 
exceedingly  weak,  owing  to  what  the  military  doctor  terms  shuck.  The 
British  authorities  never  inquired  of  me  as  to  how  the  tragic  occur- 
rence took  place. 

"1  solemnly  affirm  and  swear  that  the  above  testimony  is,  to  the 
best  of  my  knowledge  and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole,  truth,  and 
nothing  but  the  truth,  and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily. 
So  help  me  God ! 

(.Signed)     "Batt.  Buckley. 
"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  30th  day  of  November,  1920. 
(Signed   in  Gaelic)      "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  Council, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  sort  of  an  officer  was  in  charge  of 
this  lorry?     A.     A  Cameron  officer. 

Q.  An  officer  of  the  Cameron  regiment?  A.  Yes,  the  Camerons 
are  a  Scotch  regiment. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  I  want  to  ask  a  question  with  reference  to  that 
affidavit.  Do  1  understand  that  these  men  were  shot  while  they  were 
handcuffed?     A.     Handcuffed  and  sitting  in  the  lorry. 

Q.  Handcuffed.  And  while  handcuffed  they  were  shot  hy  Lhese 
soldiers?     A.     Yes,  absolutely. 


"WILFULLY  AND  BRUTALLY  MURDERED  BY 
MILITARY" 

To  continue  these  verdicts.      (Reading)  : 

On   Monday,  August  30,   1920,  a  coroner's  jury   at  Queenslown, 
County  Cork,  returned  the  following  verdict: 

"We  find  that  George  Walker  died  on  August  28th  from  shock 
caused  by  bullet  and  bayonet  wounds  inflicted  by  Cameron  Highland- 
ers. As  there  was  no  evidence  of  provocation,  there  was  no  justifica- 
tion  for  this  man's  death." 

The  Witness:  On  Monday,  August  30th,  a  coroner's  jury  at  Hos- 
pital, County  Limerick,  returned  the  following  verdict: 

"We  find  that  Patrick  Lynch  was  unlawfully  brought  from  his 
home  on  the  night  of  August  4th  by  military  then  stationed  in  Hos- 
pital, and  taken  about  two  hundred  yards  to  the  south  side,  and  there 
wilfully  and  brutally  murdered  by  the  said  military." 

SUPPRESSION  OF  CORONERS'  JURIES  LICENSES 
CROWN  FORCES  TO  MURDER  WITH  IMPUNITY 
The  Witness:  So  many  verdicts  of  this  kind  were  brought  in 
against  the  British  military  and  police  and  the  British  Government 
that  on  Friday,  September  3,  1920,  the  British  Military  Government 
in  Ireland  issued  an  order  prohibiting  the  holding  of  coroners'  in- 
quests in  ten  of  the  counties  of  Ireland,  including  the  two  counties 
in  which  the  verdicts  I  have  just  read  were  returned  against  their 
troops.  The  counties  in  which  the  holding  of  inquests  is  now  an 
illegal    act   are   Cork,   Clare,   Galway,   Kerry,   Limerick,   Longford, 


770 

Louth,  Mayo,  Roscommon,  and  Tipperary.  It  is  in  these  ten  coun- 
ties that  most  of  the  worst  outrages  have  been  committed  by  Black - 
and-Tans  and  the  police;  and  by  abolishing  the  coroners'  inquests 
the  British  Government  has  made  it  impossible  to  hold  any  public 
inquiry  into  such  cases.  It  simply  means  that  the  British  troops  in 
these  counties  are  immune  to  do  as  they  please  with  the  Irish  peo- 
ple, and  no  public  body  will  be  permitted  to  bring  the  facts  to  light. 
This  order  of  September  third  further  decrees  that  in  these  ten 
counties  Army  Courts  are  to  be  established  to  fulfil  the  functions 
of  the  coroners'  courts  of  inquiry.  In  other  words,  the  British 
armed  forces  who  in  future  murder  and  shoot  Irishmen  are  solemnly 
to  sit  in  judgment  on  themselves.  The  British  Government,  instead 
of  suppressing  such  murders,  deliberately  endeavors  to  suppress  the 
facts  about  them. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Is  there  any  question  as  to  the  legality  of 
that  order  to  abolish  these  coroners'  inquests,  when  they  have  been 
legally  constituted  under  English  law  by  the  British  authorities 
themselves?  A.  Well,  that  is  a  matter,  sir,  which  is  purely  legal. 
Personally  I  don't  know.  But  it  would  be  an  unfortunate  experi- 
ment for  anybody  in  Ireland  to  appeal  it.  In  the  first  place,  it 
would  have  to  be  appealed  to  a  British  court;  and  in  the  second 
place,  the  British  court  would  certainly  uphold  the  order.  And  then 
I  think  that  under  the  Defense  of  the  Realm  Act  the  civil  powers 
are  handed  over  to  the  military. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  is  it  not  a  matter  of  fact  that 
the  coroners'  courts  are  one  of  the  oldest  courts  in  Great  Britain? 
A.  Absolutely,  sir.  The  coroner's  inquest  was  the  first  protection 
afforded  the  individual  citizen,  the  first  effort  to  keep  definite  check 
and  control  on  sudden  or  unnatural  death.  It  was  provided  that  in 
any  case  where  death  occurs  in  an  unnatural  or  mysterious  way,  an 
inquest  should  be  held  so  as  to  give  the  citizens  that  protection. 
Now  no  inquiry  takes  place  as  to  why  that  death  should  happen; 
or  if  there  is  an  inquiry,  it  is  in  the  hands  of  the  military. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  it  is  one  of  the  first  steps  taken  after  the 
adoption  of  Magna  Charta  to  safeguard  the  rights  of  the  individual, 
and  protect  the  life  of  the  individual  citizen  against  aggression  by 
the  sovereign  or  by  anybody  else  contrary  to  the  laws  of  the  realm. 
A.  Yes,  it  is  one  of  the  fundamental  protections  of  the  lives  of  the 
individual  citizens,  sir. 

BRITISH  MURDERS  OF  UNARMED  IRISH  CIVILIANS 
EXCEEDS  GERMAN  RECORD  IN  BELGIUM 

1  have  here  a  summary  of  the  murders  in  Ireland  during  the 
period  from  January  1,  1919,  to  August  21,  1920. 

Q.     That  is  covering  what  period  of  time?     A.     January,  1919, 


771 

to  August,  1920, — about  eighteen  months.  I  shall  give  il  to  you  in 
bulk  figures  without  any  details. 

From  January  1,  1919,  to  August  21,  1920,  the  British  military 
and  police  in  Ireland  committed  51  murders  of  unarmed  and  in- 
offensive civilians.  In  the  same  period,  562  unarmed  civilians  were 
wounded  by  those  armed  forces.  It  is  significant  that  in  the  ten 
counties  of  southern  Ireland  in  which  the  British  Government  has 
prohibited  coroners'  inquests,  there  was  a  total  during  this  period 
of  35  murders  and  405  unarmed  civilians  wounded,  or  69.45  per 
cent,  of  all  such  cases. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Is  it  not  true,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  that  that  record 
is  larger  than  the  record  charged  against  the  Germans  during  the 
occupation  of  Belgium  during  the  same  period  of  time?  A.  As  far 
as  I  know,  yes,  sir,  just  as  the  whole  system  of  outrages  in  Ireland 
and  the  reign  of  terror  imposed  on  the  people  living  there  is,  I 
think,  unquestionably  far  more  terrible  and  far  more  cruel  than 
anything  that  has  been  alleged  against  Germany  in  her  occupation 
of  Belgium. 

IN  HASTE  TO  MURDER,  MILITARY  SHOOT  WRONG 
MAN 
Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Perhaps,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  you  have 
later  figures;  but  I  should  presume  that  the  number  of  murders 
would  be  greatly  increased  since  October.  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have 
later  figures  here.  In  some  cases  where  the  military  engage  in  a 
raid  with  intention  to  shoot,  they  are  not  very  careful.  Sometimes 
they  make  mistakes.  There  is  one  particular  case  of  where  a  young 
man  was  shot.  Fortunately,  he  did  not  die.  I  myself  visited  him 
in  the  North  Infirmary  in  Cork,  and  I  was  speaking  to  the  doctor 
who  examined  him;  and  the  doctor  told  me  that  it  was  marvelous 
that  the  man  should  have  lived,  as  he  received  some  terrible  wounds. 
And  one  of  the  men  engaged  in  this  raid  admitted  to  one  of  his 
comrades  that  they  were  in  the  wrong  house;  but  by  that  time  the 
poor  man  was  lying  in  a  pool  of  blood  in  the  yard.  This  is  the 
statement  made  by  the  father,  Patrick  Nunan,  of  Ardiprior,  Butte- 
vant,  County  Cork.     (Reading)  : 

Affidavit  of  Patrick  Nunan 
"On  28th  September,  1920,  my  sons  and  myself  attended  mass,  held 
in  the  parish  church,  for  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork.  The  three  of  us, 
along  with  a  laborer  by  the  name  of  Michael  Morrissey,  were  drawing- 
hay  on  the  day  previously  and  also  on  the  day  referred  to  above.  On 
account  of  the  mass  we  returned  home  late  in  the  evening  with  our 
second  load  of  hay.  When  the  hay  was  put  in,  Morrissey  went  home 
to  change  his  clothes,  and  my  two  sons  went  with  him.  When  the 
three  returned  to  my  home  the  soldiers  were  there  before  them.  My 
son  Patrick  came  in  first,  and  he  did  not  see  the  soldiers  and  did  not 
know  they  were  there  until  he  heard  the  order  of  'Hands  up  !' 

"Before  my  son  arrived  I  heard  a  noise  at  the  door.  My  wife  and 
myself  were  in  bed,  and  she  wanted  to  go  downstairs  to  let  in  those 
outside,  as  she  thought  they  were  our   sons.     1   would  not   let   her   do 


772 

so,  as  I  had  heard  strange  voices.  I  partly  dressed  myself  and  in  i'riy 
bare  feet  went  to  see  what  was  wrong.  Before  I  could  go  downstair* 
the  soldiers  were  in  my  kitchen.  They  asked  for  candles,  and  I  gave 
them  one.  Having  given  the  candle,  one  of  the  soldiers  asked  was 
this  Ardiprior,  and  I  said  that  it  was.  He  asked  me  my  name,  and  I 
gave  it.  He  asked  had  I  Pat  O'Brien  here  in  my  house,  and  I  said 
that  I  had  no  one  but  my  family.  He  then  said,  'I'll  shoot  you.'  'If 
you  do  so,'  said  I,  'I  can't  help  it.' 

"Then  I  heard  the  order  of  'Hands  up  !'  and  I  saw  my  son  coming 
in  the  door  with  his  hands  above  his  head.  The  soldiers  gathered 
about  him,  and  before  putting  any  question  to  him,  one  hit  him  with 
the  butt  end  of  the  rifle,  while  others  hit  him  with  their  fists  about  the 
face.  They  searched  him,  and  they  then  asked  him  his  name,  and  he 
said  Paddy  Nunan.  They  stopped  when  they  heard  his  name.  He 
went  from  the  kitchen  to  the  bedroom,  and  sat  down  on  the  bed  beside 
his  mother.  He  was  not  there  more  than  two  minutes  when  the  sol- 
dier who  had  already  threatened  me  said,  'Take  that  young  fellow 
outside  the  door  and  shoot  him  !'  This  order  was  hardly  given  when 
three  or  four  others  approached  him  and  told  him  to  come  on.  I  was 
in  the  room  at  the  time  this  order  was  given,  and  when  they  were 
leading  him  out  I  attempted  to  follow,  but  was  told  to  remain  where 
I  was.  He  went  outside  the  kitchen  door,  and  I  could  not  leave  the 
room.  He  was  not  far  from  the  door  when  I  heard  the  reports  of 
shots.  I  shouted  to  his  mother,  'Oh,  Paddy  is  shot !'  And  she  said, 
'No,  they  are  probably  only  firing  to  frighten  him.' 

"Some  soldiers  were  in  the  loft  where  my  girls  were  sleeping,  and 
on  hearing  the  shots  one  shouted,  'Oh,  King,  we  are  in  the  wrong 
house.  Give  me  the  ladder.'  They  rushed  out  of  the  house  almost 
immediately.  I  then  went  out  to  look  for  Paddy,  and  when  I  went  to 
the  door  I  saw  him,  ten  or  twelve  yards  away,  struggling  to  get  up. 
I  shouted  to  my  family,  and  we  all  rushed  out  to  where  he  was  lying. 
I  was  first  to  him,  and  on  asking  him  was  he  badly  wounded,  he  said, 
' 'Tis  nothing.  Give  me  a  mouthful  of  water.'  My  son  Ned  and 
myself  brought  him  into  the  house.  When  he  was  put  to  bed,  I  sum- 
moned a  priest  and  doctor,  who  arrived  about  3  :30  A.  M. 

"I   swear  'before  Almighty   God   that   the   facts   as   set   forth   in   my 
testimony  are  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but   the   truth, 
and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God ! 
(Signed)     "Patrick  Nunan, 

"Ardiprior,  Buttevant. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  4th  day  of  October,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Domnall  O'Ceallacain, 

"Deputy  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  and 
"Chairman,  Cork  County  Council." 

MILITARY    CLOAK    ATTEMPTED    MURDER    BY 
FALSEHOOD 

The  Witness :  This  is  the  deposition  made  by  the  young  man  him- 
self who  was  wounded.     (Reading)  : 

"I  have  heard  read  to  me  the  written  testimony  of  my  father, 
Patrick  Nunan,  Ardiprior,  Buttevant,  County  Cork,  in  the  matter  of 
an  attack  on  me  by  a  number  of  the  British  military  forces  on  28th 
September,  1920,  and  all  portions  of  the  testimony  referring  to  me 
therein  are  true. 

"When  I  went  outside  the  door,  I  was  shot  in  the  right  hand.  The 
soldiers  were  standing  around  in  a  semi-circle,  and  I  had  walked  only 
five  or  six  yards  from  the  door  when  I  received  several  shots  in  the 
back  and  front  of  my  body.     I   fell   forward  on  my   face  and  hands. 


773 

1  was  then  hit  on  the  jaw  with  something  hard.  They  turned  me  over 
on  my  hack,  and  opened  my  coat  and  waistcoat.  One  of  them  said, 
'We  needn't  bother  with  him  any  mere,  lie's  all  right.'  They  then 
went  away,  and  my  father  and  family  came  to  me,  and  I  was  carried 
in  home. 

•'The  report  issued  by  the  Military  Headquarters,  Parkgate,  Dublin, 
which  states : 

"'Running  out  of  a  house  at  Ardiprior,  near  Liscarroll,  while  it  was 
being  searched  by  troops,  and  disobeying  the  order  to  "Halt,"  Patrick 
Nunan,  a  civilian,  was  wounded  by  the  soldiers,  who  themselves  were 
under  fire.  There  is  no  truth  in  the  report  published  in  the  Press 
that  Nunan  was  taken  out  of  the  house,  or  that  orders  were  previously 
given  for  him  to  be  shot.  He  was  found  in  possession  of  live  and 
expended  ammunition,'  is  untrue.  Everything  that  passed  from  the 
moment  I  obeyed  the  order,  'Halt !'  and  entered  my  father's  house 
with  the  soldiers  is  as  given  in  my  father's  sworn  testimony.  The 
soldiers  were  not  subjected  to  fire.  There  was  no  live  and  expended 
ammunition  found  on  me,  as  I  never  had  live  or  expended  ammunition 
in  my  whole  life. 

"I  swear  by  the  Almighty  God  that  the  facts  as  set  forth  in  my 
testimony  are  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  were  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God  ! 

"Signed  for  Patrick  Nunan,  Jr.,  Ardiprior,  Buttevant,  who  was 
physically  incapacitated  and  could  not  sign,  by 

"Seamus  MacGearailt. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  at  North  Infirmarv,  Cork,  this  7th  day  of 
October,  1920. 

(Signed   in   Gaelic)     "Domnall  O'Ceallacain, 

"Deputy  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  and 

"Chairman,  Cork  County  Council." 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  You  read  the  false  report  issued  by  the  Govern- 
ment in  that  case.  What  Government  do  you  mean?  A.  The 
British  Government. 


REIGN  OF  TERROR  GROWING  WORSE 

The  Witness:  I  mentioned  today,  gentlemen,  that  while  this  reign 
of  terror  had  more  or  less  existed  for  some  years  past,  it  has  been 
gradually  growing  worse  for  the  past  year,  and  especially  the  last 
six  months.  In  the  first  place,  the  night  raids  and  searches  have 
become  more  numerous.  With  that,  the  night  raids  are  beginning, 
first  of  all,  to  be  accompanied  by  the  smashing  in  of  shops  and  the 
looting  of  their  contents;  and  developing  later  on,  quite  recently  the 
burning  of  individual  houses  and  shops.  As  well  as  that,  the  ordi- 
nary conduct  of  the  forces  of  the  British  Crown  during  the  day 
became  more  aggressive.  It  became  fashionable  for  the  soldiers  and 
police  passing  through  the  city  during  the  day  to  hang  over  the  sides 
of  the  lorry  all  around,  their  rifles  pointed  at  the  passers-by,  at  the 
citizens  of  Cork,  who  were  on  their  business  in  the  streets  during 
the  day.  Apart  from  any  intention  to  shoot  passers-by, — any  de- 
liberate intention, — it  was  pretty  obvious  that,  having  lorries  flying 
along  at  a  high  rate  and  soldiers  in  charge,  or  the  police  in  charge, 
as  the  case  may  be,  not  having  a  reputation  for  great  calmness  and 


774 

coolness,  that  would  not  have  any  reassuring  effect  upon  the  people, 
so  that  the  citizens  passed  through  town  only  when  necessary. 

SOLDIER  FIRES  IN  CROWDED  THOROUGHFARE 

In  firing  from  these  lorries  as  they  pass  through  the  streets,  in  a 
number  of  cases  shots  have  been  fired  and  in  a  number  of  cases 
no  harm  was  done  besides  terrifying  the  people;  but  in  other  cases 
people  have  been  hit  and  killed  by  firing  from  these  lorries  as  they 
pass  through  the  streets.  Some  of  the  depositions  bear  on  that, 
particularly  during  the  past  three  or  four  months,  when  things  have 
become  more  acute  than  they  were  previously.  This  is  the  sworn 
statement  of  C.  O'Cruadlaoic,  56  Grand  Parade,  Cork: 

Affidavit  of  C.  O'Cruadlaoic 

"At  5  P.  M.  this  evening,  2d  November,  whilst  a  lorry  of  soldiers 
in  full  war  kit  were  passing  along  the  Grand  Parade  in  the  direction 
of  Patrick  Street,  I  happened  to  be  looking  through  the  window  of 
my  office  when  I  saw  a  soldier,  who  was  sitting  at  the  back  of  the 
lorry  with  a  rifle  between  his  knees,  suddenly  raise  his  rifle  and  fire 
a  shot  in  the  air.  He  then  turned  to  his  companions  with  a  smile  on 
his  face.  This  being  one  of  the  leading  thoroughfares  in  the  city, 
was  fairly  crowded  at  the  time,  the  majority  being  women;  and  natu- 
rally there  was  much  panic. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily. 
So  help  me  God ! 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "C.  O'Cruadlaoic. 
"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  5th  day  of  November,  1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  District  Council, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

The  Witness:  That  gives  an  example  of  the  every-day  life  in 
Cork, — lorries  passing  and  firing  over  the  sides,  terrifying  the 
citizens. 

CONSTABLE  GUILTY  OF  MURDER  PROMOTED 

Here  is  another  case  of  firing  deliberately, — the  sworn  testimony 
of  Michael  A.  Terry,  Lavitt's  Quay,  Cork.     (Reading)  : 

"On  Sunday  evening,  between  9  and  10  o'clock,  on  24th  June,  1920, 
I  was  standing  at  one  of  the  windows  in  my  house,  and  saw  a  group 
of  young  men  being  pursued  along  this  Quay,  in  a  western  direction, 
closely  followed  by  five  policemen.  Opposite  my  door  I  saw  quite 
plainly  one  of  the  constables  load  his  rifle  and  take  deliberate  aim  at 
the  men,  which  was  quite  uncalled  for,  as  the  young  men  ran  out  of 
reach  of  the  policemen  and  were  dispersing  home.  Within  ten  or 
fifteen  minutes  after  the  policeman  had  fired  on  the  men,  I  saw  a  car 
driving  at  full  speed,  and  coming  from  the  western  side  of  my  house, 
on  its  way  to  the  infirmary.  I  heard  two  men  in  the  car  call  out 
to  the  policemen  whom  they  passed  :  'Mind,  ye  have  murdered  a  man.' 
The  following  day  the  man  who  was  taken  to  the  infirmary  in  the 
car  died. 

"I  then  went  to  the  police  station,  and  saw  the  Chief  Constable,  and 
asked  him,  for  God's  sake  and  the  peace  of  the  city,  to  call  an  inquiry 


775 

into  the  occurrence,  and  I  offered  to  bring  forward  at  least  five  resi- 
dents who  saw  the  incident  and  were  prepared  to  testify  to  the  callous 
conduct  of  the  police  on  the  occasion;  and  was  refused  the  grant  of 
even  an  ordinary  inquiry. 

"Note  well  the  result  of  my  complaint.  The  very  same  constable 
who  tired  the  rifle,  and  whose  name  I  gave  to  the  Chief  Constable, 
was  within  a  very  short  time  promoted  to  the  rank  of   sergeant. 

"I  swear  before  Almighty  God  that  the  facts  as  set  forth  in  my 
testimony  are  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  were  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God ! 

(Signed)     "Michael  A.   Terry. 
"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  1st  day  of  July,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Domnall  O'Ceallacain, 

"Chairman,  Cork   County  Council." 

INDISCRIMINATE  HIGHWAY  ROBBERY  BY  BLACK- 
AND-TANS 

Before  the  development  recently  of  wholesale  terrorism  has  been 
the  scattering  of  these  men,  this  Black-and-Tan  police  force,  around 
the  streets  of  the  city,  holding  up  indiscriminately  the  passers-by 
and  searching  them.  Passing  on  the  streets,  these  men  challenge 
the  passers-by  and  order  them  to  hold  up  their  hands  while  their 
pockets  are  gone  through.  In  many  cases  all  the  contents  of  their 
pockets  are  stolen,  any  money  especially.  I  do  not  say  that  occurs 
in  all  cases,  but  it  has  occurred  in  a  very  large  number  of  cases. 
That  thing  continued  for  a  number  of  weeks,  down  to  the  time  I 
left  Cork;  and  it  was  further  intensified  during  the  two  or  three 
last  evenings  I  spent  in  Cork,  either  holding  up  these  men  and 
robbing  them,  or  seizing  from  the  drivers  of  the  hackney  cars  in 
Cork  their  whips,  and  whipping  the  passers-by  indiscriminately 
along  the  footpaths.  I  presume  that  it  can  be  attributed,  apart  from 
natural  savagery, — because  these  men  were  always  or  nearly  always 
drunk, — I  suppose  the  purpose  was  to  see  if  these  citizens  of  Cork 
would  be  goaded  into  attacking  them  to  some  extent,  and  thus  pro- 
vide an  excuse  for  shooting  them  down.  This  is  typical  of  these 
happenings.      (Reading): 

Swor?i  Testimony  of  John  Creed,  56  Grattan  Street,  Cork 

"On  Monday  evening,  December  6th,  about  7  P.  M.,  I  left  the  Irish 
Transport  and  General  Workers'  Union  offices,  80  Oliver  Plunkett 
Street.  I  was  there  practically  the  whole  day,  doing  temporary  clerical 
work.  I  proceeded  to  Princes  Street.  I  went  into  Geary's,  wine  mer- 
chants, Princes  Street,  and  had  two  drinks.  It  was  near  7:30  P.  M. 
when  I  left. 

"I  came  back  in  the  direction  of  the  Union  offices.  There  was  not 
a  single  person  to  be  seen  on  Princes  Street.  At  the  Tullamore  To- 
bacco House,  which  is  at  the  corner  where  Princes  Street  joins  Oliver 
Plunkett  Street  at  right  angles,  I  saw  two  men  come  from  the  direc- 
tion of  the  General  Postofnce,  which  is  at  the  end  of  Oliver  Plunkett 
Street.  They  were  dressed  alike,  in  light  raincoats  and  soft  black  felt 
hats.  They  both  carried  revolvers  in  their  right  hands.  I  had  my 
hands  in  my  coat  pockets,  and  the  smaller  of  these  two  men  called  out, 
'Hands  up  !'  which  I  immediately  did.  He  advanced  towards  me  to 
search  me,  whilst  the  other  covered  me  with  a  revolver.     My  right- 


776 

hand  breast  pocket  contained  a  roll  of  fourteen  £1  Treasury  notes, 
and  two  ten-shilling  Treasury  notes,  one  £1  Treasury  note,  and  about 
three  pounds  eight  shillings  in  silver,  total  £19:8:0.  After  rubbing 
his  hands  down  my  front,  probably  to  see  if  I  had  a  revolver  or  any 
papers  on  me,  he  put  his  hand  into  my  right  breast  pocket  and  took 
out  the  bundle  of  notes  and  some  of  the  loose  money.  He  looked  at 
the  money  and  put  it  into  his  pocket.  He  then  told  me  to  put  down 
my  hands  and  button  my  coat,  and  to  get  away.  I  was  going  off  in 
the  direction  of  the  Union  offices,  but  he  compelled  me  to  go  in  the 
opposite  direction.  I  did  so.  The  pocket  containing  the  money  was 
the  only  one  of  my  pockets  that  was  searched.  The  man  who  took 
it  had  a  decided  English  accent. 

"I  went  back  to  Geary's  and  stayed  there  some  ten  minutes  until  I 
heard  that  things  were  quiet  outside.  I  then  went  back  to  the  Union 
offices,  only  just  entering  there  when  six  fellows  similarly  dressed  to 
the  fellows  who  robbed  me  passed,  coming  from  the  Post  Office  direc- 
tion, and  followed  closely  by  a  motor  car  containing  about  six  more 
of  them.  The  two  ladies  in  the  Union  offices  were  fainting  from 
fright.     Councillor  Robert  Day  was  with  them. 

"The  Treasurer  informed  me,  when  I  handed  the  remnant  of  the 
money  over  to  him,  that  £16  :8  :0  was  missing.  I  told  him  my  story, 
and  I  also  placed  the  matter  before  the  members  of  the  Union.  The 
latter  complimented  me  on  escaping  with  my  life.  I  made  a  statement 
the  following  evening  to  the  English  Labor  Commission  who  were 
taking  evidence  of  outrages  at  the  City  Hall,  Cork. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God ! 

(Signed)     "John  Creed. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  10th  day  of  December,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Sean  O'Morda, 

"Registrar,   Cork   District   Court." 

The  Witness:  That  gives  you  gentlemen  an  idea  of  what  every- 
day life  has  come  to  in  Cork.  In  passing  through  the  streets  of  the 
city  one  has  got  to  be  perpetually  on  the  lookout.  You  judge  by 
seeing  a  crowd  and  commotion  in  front  of  you  that  these  men  are 
out  searching.  If  they  are,  you  get  out  of  the  district  as  quickly  as 
possible,  if  you  are  wise.  They  come  along  and  hold  up  and  search 
indiscriminately,  not  only  men,  but  women  and  girls.  Quite  re- 
cently some  girls  who  attend  Miss  MacSwiney's  high  school  in  Cork 
were  searched  on  their  way  to  school, — had  their  pockets  turned  out 
and  even  their  books  examined.  One  of  the  results  of  this  daylight 
searching  is  that  the  people,  on  account  of  the  many  instances  of 
robbery,  never  carry  any  money  around  with  them,  except  very, 
very  small  sums  that  are  absolutely  necessary.  And  they  do  not 
carry  any  watches  with  them.  It  has  become  quite  the  custom  in 
Cork  to  leave  money  and  watches  and  everything  of  that  kind  at 
home,  except  a  few  shillings  that  may  be  absolutely  necessary. 
Another  consideration  is  that  when  it  is  necessary  to  take  money 
or  anything  of  value  wilh  you,  it  is  sewn  into  the  clothing;  and 
money  is  sometimes  placed  in  socks  or  boots.  But  lately  they 
apparently  thought  of  that  possibility,  and  they  searched  the  socks 
of  those  whom  they  held  up. 


777 

ATTEMPTS  TO  MURDER  PUBLIC  OFFICIAL 

I  dealt  today,  gentlemen,  with  the  particular  difficulty  in  tending 
to  business  by  those  who  are  elected  to  the  different  public  offices. 
This  is  a  deposition  by  Mr.  Seamus  MacGearailt,  who  is  chairman 
of  the  Cove  I  Queenstown,  it  was)  Urban  Council,  and  a  Cork  Har- 
bor Commissioner.  This,  you  will  understand,  is  an  important 
administrative  body  in  the  south  of  Ireland.  Mr.  MacGearailt  has 
been  continuously  looked  for  and  raided  for,  and  for  the  past  five 
or  six  months  he  has  not  been  able  to  get  near  his  own  home  in 
Cove,  much  less  attend  to  his  public  duties,  believing,  and  I  think 
with  reason  in  his  case,  that  there  was  not  only  danger  of  arrest, 
but  in  his  case  clanger  of  being  shot.     His  deposition  reads: 

Affidavit  of  Seamus  MacGearailt 

"About  the  middle  of  August  two  of  the  newly  arrived  Black-and- 
Tan  police  came  into  my  premises  in  18  East  Beach,  Cove,  and  sought 
to  purchase  some  goods.  I  informed  them  that  1  would  prefer  not 
to  have  any  business  dealings  with  them  from  a  point  of  principle, 
and  requested  them  to  leave.  They  accepted  my  argument  in  seeming 
good  faith,  and  left  without  demur.  I  resolved  on  this  action,  as  I 
had  reason  to  know  they  were  testing  me,  having  walked  directly  from 
the  Barracks,  a  half  mile  distant,  past  several  similar  shops  to  come 
to  mine.  A  further  proof  that  they  really  did  not  intend  to  legitimately 
purchase  is  that  on  leaving  my  shop  they  entered  a  public  house  next 
door  immediately. 

"About  a  week  afterwards  I  was  approached  by  the  woman  who 
acts  as  housekeeper  in  the  Constabulary  Barracks,  Cove.  She  told  me 
that  there  was  general  disagreeance  between  the  old  police  and  the  new 
Black-and-Tan  arrivals.  That  the  Black-and-Tans  wanted  to  come 
out  a  couple  of  times  to  burn  my  premises,  and  said  that  they  would 
shoot  me.  That  the  head  constable  viewed  the  matter  with  so  much 
alarm  that  he  specially  paraded  and  cautioned  them;  shifting  one  to 
Haulbowline,  as  he  was  afraid  more  especially  that  he  would  cause 
trouble  in  the  town.  He  told  them  the  place  was  quiet  before  they 
came,  and  he  wanted  no  violence  from  them. 

"This  was  the  first  time  this  woman  had  spoken  to  me,  but  she  told 
me  she  was  so  horrified  by  the  threats  towards  me  and  their  general 
demeanor  that  she  made  a  resolve  to  warn  me. 

"On  Wednesday,  25th  August,  a  party  of  Cameron  Highlanders  were 
disarmed  by  an  armed  body  of  men  in  the  'Hill'  portion  of  Cove,  and 
one  soldier  dangerously  wounded.  That  night,  my  home,  in  conjunc- 
tion with  others  in  various  portions  of  the  town,  was  forcibly  entered 
and  searched  by  police  and  military.  I  was  not  at  home.  Nine  search- 
ers' examined  everything  in  the  whole  house  for  an  hour,  and  took 
away  with  them  a  lot  of  manuscript  which  I  had  written.  On  Thurs- 
day I  wrote  a  letter  to  the  Officer  Commanding,  Military  Hutments, 
Cove,  asking  for  a  return  of  my  manuscript.  That  day  there  were 
many  arrests  by  police  and  military  in  the  town. 

"On  Friday  morning  at  10  :45  A.  M.  I  was  in  my  shop  at  East  Beach 
chatting  to  a  friend.  I  saw  a  motor  car  containing  a  couple  of  soldiers 
draw  up  outside  the  door  and  a  military  officer  with  a  revolver  in  his 
hand  jump  out.  I  ran  to  the  back  and  dropped  out  through  the 
window  into  the  street  below.  My  brother  Michael,  who  was  in  the 
shop,  told  me  the  officer  inquired  for  me  and  searched  the  place  for 
me.  About  five  minutes  afterwards,  from  a  window  in  a  house  in 
Harbor  Row.  I  saw  the  same  motor  car  containing  the  officer  and  two 
armed  soldiers  pass  back  in  the  direction  from  which  they  came,  viz., 
the  military  camp.     About  half  an  hour  afterwards  my  mother  came 


778  S 

to  me  and  told  me  that  about  twenty  minutes  before  a  motor  car 
pulled  up  outside  our  house,  3  East  Hill,  and  an  officer  rushed  in  and 
asked  if  I  were  there.     On  finding  I  was  not,  they  left  immediately. 

"I  believe  the  double  raid  to  be  consequent  on  police  information  as 
to  my  whereabouts.  About  10 :30  A.  M.  two  policemen  passing  saw 
me  in  East  Beach.  They  must  have  phoned  the  military  immediately 
they  reached  the  Barracks,  as  the  motor  car  containing  the  officer 
stopped  outside  the  shop  ten  minutes  afterwards.  They  only  searched 
my  house  on  the  return  journey. 

"That  day  a  military  lorry  was  ambushed  outside  Midleton,  about 
twelve  miles  from  Cove,  the  military  driver  shot  dead,  and  an  officer 
and  private  wounded.  They  were  brought  into  the  military  hospital 
at  Cove,  and  that  night  at  11  P.  M.  the  Cameron  Highlanders  wrecked 
all  the  shops  in  the  principal  business  streets  of  the  town,  and  looted 
many.  My  shop  was  untouched.  At  3  A.  M.  the  following  morning 
armed  Black-and-Tans  issued  forth  from  the  local  police  barracks. 
They  proceeded  to  East  Beach,  smashed  my  shop  front  completely,  and 
entered,  wrecked,  and  looted  tbe  premises.  They  were  under  the  influ- 
ence of  drink,  and  fired  upwards  of  twenty-nine  shots  from  their 
revolvers  into  the  place,  imagining,  from  their  shouts  of  'Now  we  have 

the ,'  that   I   was   there.     Thev  only   desisted    from   setting  fire 

to  the  place,  notwithstanding  the  facts  that  a  family  of  four  children 
under  seven  years  were  living  overhead,  because  prevailed  upon  by 
hysterical  women.  The  panic  prevailing,  and  the  action  of  those  police 
on  that  occasion,  is  given  in  a  separate  deposition.  I  firmly  believe 
they   fully  contemplated   murdering   me   on   that   occasion. 

"Subsequently  upwards  of  nine  other  houses  were  raided  by  military 
to  effect  my  arrest,  the  occupants  being  closely  questioned  as  to  my 
whereabouts. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God  ! 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  15th  day  of  November,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Sean  O'Morda, 

"Registrar,  Cork  District  Court." 

BRITISH  OFFICERS  TORTURE  HUNCHBACK 

The  Witness:  In  the  course  of  these  raids,  and  even  where  per- 
sonal attacks  and  even  murders  are  concerned,  these  forces  are  no 
respecters  of  persons.  And  even  where  conditions  obtain  which 
would  appeal  to  the  ordinary  humanity  or  ordinary  common  de- 
cency of  any  man,  or  where  one  would  expect  it  would, — even  where 
a  man  has  been  crippled  or  deformed,  that  would  not  save  him. 
There  have  been  a  number  of  cases  where  these  men  have  been  shot 
or  otherwise  maltreated.  There  was  one  notorious  case  in  Bandon, 
on  the  night  when  several  houses  in  Bandon  were  burned  down. 
There  was  a  young  fellow  there  of  eighteen  or  nineteen  who  was 
shot  down  in  bed.  In  this  case  I  give  you  the  deposition  of  a  young 
man  in  the  case,  Sean  Murphy,  Cork  Hill,  Bandon.     (Reading)  : 

"I  visited  James  Murphy,  St.  Patrick's  Hill,  Bandon,  on  Wednesday 
night,  10th  November,  1920,  and  obtained  from  him  a  voluntary  sworn 
statement  re.  treatment  he  received  at  the  hands  of  three  British  officers 
that  morning.  He  told  me  he  heard  a  knock  at  the  door  at  3 :50 
A.  M.,  and  he  went  out  and  opened  the  door.  'Three  British  officers 
rushed  in,  one   (we  will  call  him  X)   having  a  drawn  revolver  in  his 


779 

hand.  X  was  shouting,  "You  are  the  man  we  want."  I  was  dressed 
only  in  my  shirt,  and  stepped  back.  They  shouted  to  "Get  a  candle  !  ' 
When  the  candle  was  lit,  X  pointed  his  revolver  at  me.  and  told  me 
to  stand  against  the  wall,  calling  me  a  Sinn  Fein  spy.  He  struck  me 
across  the  head  and  knocked  me.  He  compelled  me  to  sit  on  a  chair. 
Another  officer  (whom  we  will  call  Y)  commenced  quoting, ^"Ven- 
geance is  mine,  and  I  will  repay.  These  are  our  Lord's  words."  And 
he  applied  these  words  to  himself.  The  third  officer  (whom  we  will 
call  Z)  was  searching  the  house.  X  again  gave  me  a  blow  which  did 
not  knock  me,  but  he  gave  me  a  third  which  did.  X  and  Y  made 
me  get  up,  and  again  I  was  struck  and  knocked  down.  This  was 
done  several  times.  They  were  questioning  me  on  who  were  the 
prominent  Sinn  Feiners  in  Bandon.  They  made  mention  of  Canon 
Cohalan,  asking  was  he  the  most  prominent  Sinn  Feiner  there.  X 
said,  "If  you  are  a  man,  get  up  and  fight;  don't  be  getting  behind 
ditches  and  hedges  to  us.  Come  on  !  Come  on  !  Get  up  and  fight !" 
Z  then  put  a  Dolor  Beads  around  my  neck.  They  got  two  pieces  of 
stick  and  made  a  cross  with  them.  They  put  the  cross  in  my  hands 
and  made  me  swear  that  I  never  gave  information  to  Sinn  Fein  about 
British  officers.  They  again  struck  me,  knocking  me  on  each  occasion. 
They  said  that  they  were  divided  as  to  whether  they  would  hang  me 
or  shoot  me.  Z  cut  a  line  (a  piece  of  rope  used  for  hanging  clothes), 
made  a  noose  in  the  middle  of  it,  and  put  the  noose  around  my  neck. 
X  and  Y  pulled  an  end  of  the  rope  each,  but  it  did  not  tighten  too 
much.  It  lifted  me  off  the  stool  and  broke.  Its  breaking  probably 
saved  me  much  torture.  They  said,  "Well  saved,"  and  threw  away  the 
rope.  X  again  brought  the  revolver  into  play.  He  put  it  to  my 
mouth,  and  said,  "You  are  going  to  die  now."  One  of  them  said, 
"We  won't  shoot  him."  X  then  struck  me  several  times.  I  was  now 
bleeding  from  my  mouth  and  nose,  and  think  also  from  my  ears.  Y 
said,  "Wash  yourself!"  I  went  to  wash  myself,  X  again  hitting  me 
in  the  eye,  and  calling  me  a  dirty  Sinn  Fein  spy.  They  made  me  kiss 
the  revolver  before  going.  When  they  were  gone,  I  found  that  several 
books  of  a  religious  kind  (Irish),  a  sheet  and  a  tablecloth  were 
missing.' 

"James  Murphy  is  a  little  hunch-back,  who  resides  with  his  sister 
who  is  not  very  strong.  I  saw  the  shirt  which  he  was  wearing  that 
morning.  It  was  completely  clotted  with  blood  on  the  front  and  back. 
I  also  saw  the  piece  of  rope.  It  would  not  be  strong  enough  to  hang 
a  man,  but  a  small  man  like  James  Murphy  would  suffer  greatly  the 
way  they  pulled  it  while  the  noose  was  around  his  neck. 

"He  was  in  bed  when  I  saw  him,  and  his  nose  was  very  badly  torn. 
He  complained  of  pains  in  his  head  and  back,  and  as  a  result  of  his 
treatment  he  is  very  nervous.  I  know  James  Murphy  personally.  He 
is  a  very  quiet,  inoffensive  man.  He  is  an  ardent  student  of  the  Irish 
language. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability,  from  a  careful  examination  into  his  case,  the  truth, 
the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth.     So  help  me  God ! 

(Signed)     "Sean   Murphy. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this   19th  day  of  November,   1920. 

(Signed)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove  Urban  Council." 

The  Witness:  The  Canon  Cohalan  referred  to,  I  might  mention, 
is  the  parish  priest  in  Bandon. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  That  deposition,  of  course,  is  taken  under  oath, 
is  it  not?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  these  affidavits  you  have  read  are  all  taken  under  oath? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  all  taken  under  oath. 


780 

BARBAROUS  TORTURE  OF  IRISH  PRISONERS 

There  have  been  a  number  of  cases  where  ill-treatment  after  arrest 
has  been  alleged.     But  as  that  has  been  a  more  or  less  recent  de- 
velopment, and  as  the  men  in  whose  cases  it  has  been  alleged  are 
still  nearly  all  in  jail,  it  has  not  been  possible  to  get  the  particulars 
in  a  number  of  cases.     Fortunately,  in  one  case,  and  I  think  it  is  a 
most  glaring  as  well  as  a  most  cruel  case,  we  have  got  the  deposi- 
tion,  although   the   man    in   this   particular   case   is  still   in   prison. 
The  man  concerned  is  Thomas  Hales,  one  of  the  Hales  family  from 
Knocknacurra,  near  Bandon,  County  Cork.     It  is  a  family  who  are 
famous  as  athletes.      His  brother  represents  the  Irish  Republic  as 
consular  agent  there.     I  had  the  pleasure  of  meeting  him  last  July 
when  I  was  there.     I  will  read  the  deposition  of  Thomas  Hales: 
Affidavit  of  Thomas  Hales 
"On  the  27th  July,  1920,  at  about  5  P.   M.,  I  was  standing  outside 
a    farmhouse    at    Laragh,    about    two    and    three-quarter    miles    from 
Bandon, — Mr.  Hurley  is  the  proprietor  of  the  house.     Some  police  and 
soldiers  came  and  surrounded  the  house  and  took  me  and  Harte.     I 
was  brought  inside  the  house,  and  there  saw  Captain  Kelly  with  other 
military  officers." 

The  Witness:  Captain  Kelly,  I  might  explain,  is  one  of  the  intel- 
ligence officers  attached  to  the  British  Military  Headquarters  at 
Cork. 

"I  had  no  coat  on  at  the  time.  They  then  took  me  into  an  outhouse, 
and  took  all  my  other  clothes  off  me  and  searched  them  for  docu- 
ments. They  found  some  documents  on  me,  and  on  searching  my 
coat,  which  was  hanging  up,  they  spilt  out  of  it  some  cartridges.  I 
had  no  cartridges  in  my  possession,  and  I'm  of  the  opinion  that  these 
were  placed  there  by  the  military.  Captain  Kelly  and  Lieutenant 
Keogh  took  all  my  clothes  off  me.  Lieutenant  Keogh  said,  'You  have 
documents  with  regard  to  the  boycott  of  the  R.  I.  C  When  I  was 
undressed  they  strapped  my  hands  behind  my  back  with  leather  straps, 
and  put  them  around  my  neck  and  mouth.  Harte  was  also  strapped 
in  a  similar  position.  I  was  not  in  a  position  to  defend  myself,  and 
Lieutenant  Keogh  hit  me  several  times  in  the  face  and  on  the  body. 
Kelly  said,  'You  have  some  documents  from  the  Adjutant  General  per 
Michael  Collins.'  He  apparently  assumed  that  M.  C.  stood  for  Michael 
Collins.  They  dressed  me  again,  tied  my  hands  behind  my  back  with 
leather  straps,  and  also  dressed  Harte.  Kelly  said,  'You  will  be  shot.' 
They  put  straps  around  my  legs  as  well  as  round  Harte's  legs.  They 
made  me  stand  up,  and  made  Harte  stand  behind  me.  They  discov- 
ered a  slab  of  gun-cotton  in  the  farm.  I  do  not  know  whether  it  was 
brought  in  by  the  military  or  not.  They  placed  the  gun-cotton  on 
Harte's  back,  strapped  it  there,  and  Kelly  said,  'Be  prepared  for  a 
shock.'  They  looked  round  for  a  detonator,  but  could  not  find  one. 
They  then  took  the  gun-cotton  off  Harte's  back,  and  while  my  hands 
were  strapped  behind  my  back,  and  Harte's  hands  were  also  strapped 
behind  his  back.  Lieutenant  Keogh  hit  me  and  Harte  in  the  face 
several  times.  He  hit  me  very  hard,  and  he  had  in  his  hand,  I  believe, 
the  butt  end  of  a  revolver. 

"They  then  tied  my  right  leg  to  Harte's  left  leg,  and  marched  us 
off  to  a  lorry. about  200  yards  away.  I  was  prodded  by  a  bayonet,  and 
I  was  hit  in  the  nose  by  the  butt  end  of  a  gun.  I  was  very  weak, 
and  it  was  difficult  to  walk  in  a  three-legged  fashion. 

"There  were  two   girls   in   the   farm  who  witnessed   some  of   what 


781 

took  place,  namely,  Miss  Hurley  and  Miss  Lordan.  I  am  not  certain 
if  they  were  in  the  outhouse  when  I  was  stripped,  but  if  they  were 
not  in  the  outhouse  they  were  certainly  outside.  There  were  other 
people  present  who  could  also  verify  what  took  place.  One  of  the 
boys  of  the  farm  was  arrested  at  the  same  time,  but  the  military  let 
him  go.  . 

"On  reaching-  the  lorry,  they  were  not  able  to  throw  us  both  m 
together,  so  they  separated  Harte  from  me,  and  they  threw  us 
into  the  lorry,  t  was  nearly  blind,  as  blood  was  running  down  my 
face  from  the  injuries  I  had  received.  We  were  taken  to  Bandon  into 
the  Military  Barracks  yard,  and  were  lined  up  to  be  shot.  The  sol- 
diers were  howling  for  our  death,  and  were  anxious  to  shoot  us.  We 
had  our  backs  to  the  wall,  and  Harte  was  on  my  left-hand  side. 
Keogh  said,  'Do  you  want  to  be  blindfolded?'  We  said,  'No.'  I  asked 
to  see  a  chaplain.  Keogh  said,  'Damn  it,  why  do  you  want  to  see  a 
chaplain?'    I  said,  'All  right,  go  ahead.' 

"We  were  still  tied  with  our  hands  behind  our  backs,  and  the 
soldiers  hit  us  with  their  fists.  My  sight  was  getting  very  dim,  owing 
to  the  blood  that  I  was  losing,  and  I  felt  very  weak.  Kelly  paced 
out  twelve  to  fifteen  paces  from  us,  and  then  put  five  or  six  men  with 
rifles  at  the  end  of  the  fifteen  paces.  Harte  was  then  very  weak  and 
could  hardlv  see.  He  stuck  a  flag  into  Harte's  hand,  and  made  him 
hold  his  hand  up.  I  recognized  that  the  flag  Harte  was  holding  up 
was  the  Union  Jack,  but  Harte  himself  was  too  far  gone  to  recognize 
it.  A  man  came  with  a  camera  and  took  a  snapshot.  Kelly  then 
said,  'We  must  get  some  information  first  before  we  shoot  them.'  We 
were  then  taken  across  the  Barracks  yard  into  a  room  in  the  Barracks. 
The  soldiers  were  furious  at  not  being  allowed  to  shoot  us,  and  they 
punched  us  and  pummelled  us  the  whole  way  across  the  yard. 

"They  locked  us  into  a  room.  It  was  getting  dark  by  this  time. 
About  midnight  I  was  led  out  by  the  guard,  and  taken  to  an  upper 
room.  There  were,  I  believe,  six  officers  in  this  room,  including 
Captain  Kelly  of  the  enemy  Military  Intelligence  Department,  sta- 
tioned at  Cork  City;  Lieutenant  Keogh  of  the  Hants  Regiment; 
Lieutenant  Richardson,  in  charge  of  wireless  at  Bandon;  Lieutenant 
Green,  believed  to  be  of  the  Hants  Regiment.  They  were  sitting  down 
as  if  they  were  going  to  try  me.  There  were  no  soldiers,  only  officers 
in  the  room.  _  > 

"Kelly  opened  the  proceedings  by  saying,  'We  are  going  to  try  you. 
My  hands  were  still  tied  behind  my  back,  and  the  strap  was  fastened 
round  my  neck  and  face.  Kelly  took  up  a  book  which  he  said  was  a 
Bible,  and  opened  it  and  placed  it  in  my  hands  behind  my  back.  He 
told  me  to  repeat  the  oath  which  he  was  going  to  say.  I  said.  'For 
what  purpose?'  He  said.  We  want  your  name,  and  for  you  to  answer 
other  questions  on  oath.  If  you  do  not,  you  will  be  handed  over  to  the 
R.  I.  C,  and  they  will  quickly  identify  you  and  deal  with  you.'  I,  of 
course,  was  well  known  to  Captain  Kelly.  He  had  seen  me  many 
times  before,  and  of  course  knew  my  correct  name.  I  had  previously 
given  a  false  name  when  I  was  arrested, — that  was  before  I  knew 
Kelly  was  present. 

"I  said,  'I  have  no  objection  to  giving  my  name.'  They  let  my 
trousers  and  pants  round  my  feet,  my  hands  still  being  behind  my 
back.  'Now,'  said  Kelly,  'repeat  the  following  words  after  me.'  He 
then  started  saying  some  form  of  oath  and  included  in  it  the  name 
of  the  Blessed  Virgin.  I  did  not  repeat  the  name  of  the  Blessed 
Virgin,  and  two  of  the  officers  took  their  canes  and  beat  me  on  my 
bare  legs  for  about  five  minutes.  I  was  powerless  to  do  anything. 
Kelly  then  asked  my  name.  I  said,  'Tom  Hales.'  He  said.  'You  are 
Commander  of  a  Brigade.'  1  said  I  was  one  time.  He  asked  me  who 
was  the  man  next  in  command  to  me.  J  said  ]  refused  to  tell  him. 
I  said,  ;You  are  foreigners  to  me,  hut  I  appeal  to  you,  if  you  are 
gentlemen,  to  go  ahead  and  get  on  with  the  shooting  part  of  it.  I  am 
quite  ready.' 


782 


"Kelly  then  told  one  of  the  officers  to  go  out  and  get  the  pliers. 
He  then  said,  'You  are  an  anarchist  and  a  murderer.  You  have 
organized  all  the  murder  and  attacks  on  barracks  in  this  part  of  the 
country.'  He  said,  'Where  were  you  on  Sunday?  Were  you  at  mass, 
and  at  what  mass?'  I  said,  'I  was  at  mass  at  Rossmore.'  He  then 
asked  me  was  I  not  responsible  for  raising  the  training  camp  at  Glan- 
dore  last  year.  I  refused  to  answer.  The  two  officers  then  gave  me 
about  forty  cuts  each  on  my  bare  legs.  Kelly  then  said,  'Will  you 
refuse  to  tell  me  was  Professor  Gerald  Sullivan  Commander  of  the 
camp  ?'  I  told  him  I  did  not  know  such  a  man.  He  said,  'You  are  a 
damned  liar.'  The  two  officers  then  gave  me  vicious  blows  on  the 
leg,  and  the  blood  was  flowing  down  my  legs  from  several  wounds  in 
them.  (Dr.  Shannon,  civilian  doctor  of  Cork  Prison,  saw  the  scars 
that  were  on  my  legs.)  The  scars  were  visible  for  three  weeks  after 
this  night's  event. 

"Kelly  said,  'There  was  one  of  your  dispatches  intercepted  con- 
nected with  the  camp  and  signed  by  you.  Be  sure  we  know  more 
about  you  than  you  think.'  Then  he  said,  'Where  did  you  sleep  last 
Sunday  night?'  I  said,  T  was  at  home.'  'That  is  a  damned  lie,'  said 
Kelly.  I  said,  'I  generally  sleep  at  home.  I  hardly  ever  sleep  in 
anybody  else's  house.  The  hay  shed  is  good  enough  for  me.'  Kelly 
said,  'You  organized  and  were  in  the  attack  on  Farnivane  Police 
Barracks.'  I  said,  'You  may  have  been  told  that.'  He  asked  me 
what  rank  did  John  Buckley  of  Bandon  hold  in  the  Irish  Republican 
Volunteers.  I  said,  'He  is  a  builder,  and  a  good  Sinn  Feiner  at  that.' 
I  was  again  viciously  whipped  for  the  statement.  He  said,  'What 
position  does  your  brother  John  hold  and  where  is  he  staying?'  I 
said,  'I  refuse  to  give  you  any  information  about  him.'  He  then 
turned  to  the  officer  whom  he  had  sent  for  the  pliers,  and  he  started 
bending  and  twisting  and  pinching  my  fingers  at  the  back.  He  gripped 
them  at  the  back,  placing  one  portion  of  the  pinchers  against  one  side 
of  my  nail  and  the  other  portion  of  the  pinchers  against  the  other. 
He  brought  the  blood  to  the  tops  of  several  of  my  fingers,  and  for 
seme  time  afterwards  my  fingers  were  black  on  the  tops,  owing  to 
congealed  blood  there.  T  was  feeling  extremely  weak,  almost  faint- 
ing, and  the  blood  was  dropping  down  my  legs.  I  was  asked  several 
questions  about  other  individuals  and  about  military  matters,  but  I 
refused  to  give  any  information. 

"Kelly  also  put  the  pinchers  on  my  thighs,  but  my  senses  were 
becoming  quite  numb.  After  that,  and  finding  I  would  answer  no 
questions,  he  told  me  I  would  be  shot  at  dawn.  He  said,  'You  are  a 
Commander  of  a  Brigade  and  know  all  about  these  murders.  If 
you  do  not  know,  you  should  know,  or  you  can  have  no  control  over 
your  men.'  I  said,  'If  that  is  so  that  I  have  no  control  over  my  men. 
there  are  other  people  besides  me  that  have  no  control  over  their  men.' 
"Keogh  then  untied  my  hands  and  told  me  to  pull  up  my  trousers. 
I  did  so,  and  my  trousers  were  sopping  wet  with  blood.  Kelly  said, 
'The  Court  is  closed  for  the  finding.'  He  said.  'Stand  up,'  as  my 
knees  were  somewhat  bending,  'and  we  will  see  what  a  Tommy  can 
do  to  you.'  Keogh  then  landed  me  a  terrific  punch  in  the  face.  I 
said  I  would  not  defend  myself;  I  would  not  give  them  an  excuse  to 
say  I  had  hit  them.  Keogh  hit  me  several  times  in  various  parts  of 
the  body,  but  especially  in  the  face,  and  he  broke  the  four  teeth  in 
my  upper  jaw.  He  then  knocked  me  down  on  the  ground.  I  was 
absolutely  exhausted  and  nearly  fainted,  and  my  senses  were  beginning 
to  go.  He  hit  me  on  several  occasions  while  I  was  on  the  ground. 
After  a  few  minutes  one  of  the  officers  said,  'That's  enough.'  I  was 
then  dragged  up  and  led  out  of  the  room.  My  hands  had  not  been 
retied  since  they  had  been  undone  in  order  to  lift  up  my  trousers. 
When  I  got  outside  my  hands  were  tied  up  again  and  the  straps 
fastened  round  my  neck  and  face.  Five  or  six  soldiers  hit  me  while 
I  was  going  to  the  room  where  Harte  was. 
"After   I   had   been  placed   in   this   room,   bleeding  and   exhausted, 


783 

Hartc  was  taken  upstairs.  He  was  treated  in  a  very  similar  fashion, 
and  it  has,  unfortunately,  had  a  detrimental  effect  upon  his  brain, 
and  he  is  now  practically  mentally  incapacitated. 

"In  the  morning,  at  daybreak,  the  28th  July,  the  sergeant  came  in 
and  loosened  the  straps  that  tied  my  arms.  About  half  an  hour 
afterwards  Captain  Kelly  came  in  with  a  squad  of  men  and  took  me 
out  of  the  room.  He  noticed  the  straps  were  not  tight.  He  said, 
'Who  in  the  hell  loosened  your  straps?'  He  had  them  immediately 
tightened.  I  went  into  another  room  and  had  to  kneel  down.  Harte 
was  also  brought  in  and  told  to  kneel  down;  and  we  were  left  kneel- 
ing for  about  five  minutes.  We  were  then  told  to  get  up,  and  were 
taken  into  the  barrack  yard.  They  put  me  up  against  a  wall.  I  said, 
'Will  you  let  me  see  a  chaplain?'  'No,'  said  Kelly,  'I  will  not.'  I 
said  to  Kelly,  'Your  life  will  only  be  a  short  one,  the  same  as  mine.' 

"He  immediately  drew  out  an  automatic  pistol  and  placed  it  against 
my  temple  and  said,  'One  question,  and  on  the  answer  of  this  question 
depends  your  life.  Give  me  the  names  of  the  six  battalions.'  I  said, 
'Even  if  I  knew  the  names  of  the  six  battalions,  I  would  not  tell  you.' 
Kelly  said,  'I  will  give  you  another  chance,  and  if  you  don't  tell  me 
the  battalion  names,  I  will  shoot  you  dead.'  1  said,  'Go  on.  I  won't 
tell  you  the  names.' 

"He  then  took  down  the  revolver  and  walked  over  to  where  some 
of  the  officers  were,  and  said  something  to  them.  I  then  heard  him 
say,  'We  will  take  him  off,  and  we  will  give  him  some  more  torture.' 
They  threw  me  into  a  motor  lorry.  Harte  was  also  thrown  into  the 
same  motor  lorry,  and  we  were  brought  to  the  Military  Hospital  in 
Cork.  I  was  attended  to  by  the  doctor  in  the  hospital,  and  my  treat- 
ment and  Harte's  treatment  in  the  hospital  was  satisfactory.  We  were 
.  given  newspapers  and  were  not  in  any  way  molested  or  struck,  and 
our  injuries  were  attended  to. 

"We  were  placed,  though,  in  a  ward  where  there  were  twelve 
wounded  policemen,  and  they  were  all  day  and  all  night  long  talking 
at  us  and  crying  for  our  blood.  This  had  a  very  detrimental  effect 
upon  Harte,  who  in  consequence  is  now  in  a  very  weak  mental  state. 

"On  Tuesday,  the  19th  August,  we  were  told  by  the  military  officer 
that  we  would  be  tried  by  court-martial  sharp  at  10  o'clock.  On 
August  20th,  at  quarter  to  ten,  we  were  taken  to  the  place  where 
the  court-martial  was  to  take  place.  After  waiting  for  half  an  hour, 
the  sergeant  was  told  to  take  us  back,  as  the  court-martial  was  post- 
poned. At  twelve  o'clock  we  were  taken  again  to  the  same  place, 
and  again,  after  waiting  half  an  hour,  the  court-martial  was  post- 
poned and  we  were  taken  back.  At  2  :30  we  were  taken  again  to  the 
court-martial,  and  the  court-martial  took  place.  I  refused  to  recog- 
nize the  court,  and  I  refused  to  cross  examine,  but  I  stated  that  I  had 
no  munition  on  me.  The  president  asked  me  did  1  want  to  cross 
examine  Captain  Kelly.  I  said,  'No.'  We  were  sentenced  to  two 
years'  hard  labor." 

The  Witness:   Well,  that,  gentlemen,  is  one  of  the  most  glaring 
cases  I  know  of. 

CRUEUTY  DRIVES  PRISONER  INSANE 
Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  man  is  still  in  prison  serving  his  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  that  man  is  still  in  prison  serving  his  two  years.  And 
in  the  case  of  the  man  Harte,  we  have  had  reports  definitely, — we 
have  heard  rumors,  but  some  time  before  I  left  we  learned  that  the 
poor  man  had  lost  his  mental  balance  and  was  insane.  We  made 
efforts  before  I  left  Cork  to  get  him  transferred  to  the  Cork  lunatic 
asylum,  but  up  to  the  time  I  left,  nothing  came  of  it. 


784 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Was  this  affidavit  submitted  to  the  Labor  Com- 
mission which  was  in  Ireland?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of.  Not  in 
Cork.     It  may  have  been  in  Dublin. 

Q.     Were  some   affidavits  submitted?      A.     Some  of  them   were. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  Captain  Kelly  is  still  in  the 
Information  Office?     A.     In  Cork,  he  is. 

Q.  Is  Captain  Kelly  an  Irishman?  A.  That  I  do  not  know. 
I  know  nothing  whatever  of  him.  I  scarcely  think  he  would  be, 
and  I  surely  hope  not. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  This  party  you  were  telling  about,  in 
what  prison  is  he?     A.     In  Dartmoor,  I  think. 

Q.     That  prison  is  in  England?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Wood:  Do  you  know  these  persons,  Mr.  Lord 
Mayor?     A.    Not  all  of  them. 

Q.  Were  these  depositions  made  before  you  in  your  position  as 
chief  magistrate  of  the  city  of  Cork?  A.  Yes,  sir,  most  of  them 
were. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  one  you  just  read  was?  A.  Well,  that 
was  an  irregular  one.  Most  of  these  poor  men  are  still  in  prison. 
That  is  the  case  of  this  particular  man  whose  affidavit  I  have  just 
read,  Mr.  Tom  Hales.  He  is  still  in  prison;  and  that  had  to  be 
given  through  channels  other  than  the  ordinary  deposition.  But  it 
is  perfectly  reliable. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  you  know  that  man  yourself?  A.  Yes, 
I  know  him  personally. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  He  is  a  reputable  man  in  every  way?  A. 
Oh,  yes,  absolutely. 

Q.  How  old  a  man  is  he?  A.  Thirty-five  or  thirty-seven.  His 
father  is  a  farmer  in  a  large  way  near  Bandon.  He  has  three  or  four 
brothers.  They  have  a  threshing  machine  which  they  operate  all 
around  there. 

Q.     How  long  have  you  known  him?     A.     Five  or  six  years. 

Q.  He  bears  a  good  reputation,  does  he?  A.  Yes,  as  good  as 
any  man  in  the  country. 

FACTS  ABOUT  IRISH  ATROCITIES  SUPPRESSED  BY 
BRITISH-CONTROLLED  CABLES  AND  PRESS 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  We  have  heard  about  these  atrocities 
in  Ireland.  What  effort  have  you  made,  if  any,  to  inform  the 
British  authorities  about  them, — I  mean  the  official  family  of  the 
British  Government?  A.  None  whatever  except  that  these  particu- 
lar cases  have  been  reported  in  the  press  in  some  form  or  other. 

Q.     The  Irish  press?     A.     Yes,  in  the  daily  press. 

Q.  Has  any  publicity  been  given  to  these  crimes  in  English 
papers?  A.  Yes,  in  some  of  them.  Not  all  of  these  cases  have 
been,  but  the  case  of  Mr.  Hales  was  in  some  of  them. 


7f!5 

Q.  The  thought  that  was  in  my  mind  was  this:  You  probably 
remember  that  before  we  got  into  the  war.  and  for  a  long  time 
before  the  war  ended,  we  heard  a  lot  about  the  terrible  atrocities 
that  were  happening  in  Belgium.     A.     Yes.  certainly. 

Q.  Since  the  war  ended  we  have  found  that  a  good  many  oi 
those  stories  are  not  true,  but  we.  accepted  them  as  true;  and  the 
thought  I  have  in  mind  is  that,  as  regards  the  stories  that  we  have 
listened  to  for  the  last  few  weeks  here  about  Ireland,  the  stories 
we  heard  about  Belgium,  even  if  they  were  true,  are  not  as  bad  as 
the  stories  we  have  heard  about  Ireland.  And  yet  the  people  do 
not  seem  to  believe  them.  Can  you  explain  that?  A.  Well,  it  can 
be  explained  by  the  way  England  controls  her  press.  I  understand 
that  even  in  America  you  are  not  immune  from  that  control.  And 
that  has  a  good  deal  to  do  with  it.  The  fact  that  Republican  Ire- 
land, even  in  Ireland,  does  not  own  or  control  a  daily  paper,  makes 
it  very  difficult  to  get  the  truth  to  the  people. 

AMERICAN   NEWSPAPERS    GIVE   DIFFERENT   PUB- 
LICITY TO  BELGIAN  AND  IRISH  ATROCITIES 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  possible  that  the  British  Government  does 
really  control  the  press  of  the  United  States,  inasmuch  as  we  do  not 
get  any  of  this  information,  except  as  we  are  getting  it  in  this 
Commission?  A.  Certainly  you  do  not  get  any  of  this  informa- 
tion, especially  in  the  detailed  way  you  get  it  in  this  Commission. 

Q.  But  we  got  it  from  Belgium  every  day.  A.  Well,  as  an 
example  of  the  way  in  which  that  information  is  treated,  take  a 
case  I  saw  in  your  papers  the  other  day,  the  case  of  a  young  man  up 
in  the  north  of  Ireland,  in  Kilmuth  (?).  This  young  fellow,  his 
house  was  raided;  his  sister  was  injured  in  seeking  to  prevent  hi? 
removal ;  his  brother  was  forced  to  accompany  his  captors  into  the 
yard,  and  there,  with  his  brother  looking  on,  he  was  shot  dead. 
Now,  with  reference  to  Belgium  and  the  publicity  about  what  hap- 
pened there.  Let  us  assume  that  that  had  occurred  in  Belgium 
during  the  war.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  confined  to  a  five-line 
space  on  one  of  the  back  pages  of  your  newspapers?  Could  you 
possibly  have  a  more  glaring  outrage  than  that  committed  in  any 
country,  and  still  have  only  five  or  six  lines  in  the  back  pages  of 
your  own  newspapers? — where  a  young  fellow  was  taken  out  of  his 
home  and  shot,  and  his  brother  forced  to  witness  the  procedure, 
and  his  sister  injured  in  addition.  Cases  like  that  do  not  always 
even  get  five  or  six  lines  on  the  back  page,  owing  to  English  control 
of  the  cables  and  its  own  news  service. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Is  it  not  a  notorious  fact  that  the  British  Govern- 
ment controls  the  cables  to  this  country,  even  today?      A.     Abso- 


786 

lutely.     I  believe  I  have  read  something  about  that  in  your  papers 
just  since  I  have  been  here. 

IRISH  EDITORS  IMPRISONED  FOR  EXPOSING 
ATROCITIES 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you,  is  it  not  true  that  some  of  these 
cases  were  published  in  your  papers,  like  the  Freeman  s  Journal, 
and  the  editors  were  arrested  and  put  in  prison?  A.  That  is  a  fact. 
The  editor  and  the  directors  were  arrested. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  facts  of  this  case?  A.  Well,  the  editor 
and  directors  were  charged  with  giving  untrue  facts  about  one  of 
these  cases.  The  editor  and  manager,  through  their  counsel,  Mr. 
Dan  Dealy,  showed  that  their  accounts  were  justified;  that  they 
had  every  right  to  put  them  in;  and  yet,  in  spite  of  that,  they  were 
found  guilty  and  put  in  prison.  However,  I  see  now  that  the  Gov- 
ernment has  released  them, — or  they  were  being  released  within  the 
past  week,  on  account  of  ill-health. 

In  regard  to  that  case  of  Hales — 

ABUSE  OF  PRISONERS  A  VIOLATION  OF  RULES 
OF  WAR 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Before  you  leave  the  Hales  case,  may 
I  ask  a  question  or  two?     A.     Certainly. 

Q.     Mr.  Hales  was  sentenced  for  two  years?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  happen  to  know  on  what  ground  he  was  sentenced? 
A.  No,  for  the  moment  I  do  not  know  definitely  what  the  charge 
was.  I  think  it  was  for  having  seditious  documents  in  his  posses- 
sion. The  two  charges  usually  are  either  for  having  seditious  docu- 
ments or  for  having  arms  and  ammunition  in  your  possession. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  Mr.  Hales  admitted  quite  openly  his 
membership  in,  and  the  fact  that  he  had  held  a  commission  in  the 
Republican  Army?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  If  Mr.  Hales  had  been  treated  as  an  ordinary  prisoner  oi 
war,  would  he  have  objected?  A.  No,  he  would  have  been  quite 
satisfied. 

Q.  You  see,  the  fact  that  I  would  like  to  bring  out,  and  which  I 
think  you  would  like  to  impress  upon  us,  is  the  treatment  of  this 
prisoner  not  in  accordance  with  the  rules  of  warfare.  A.  No,  of 
course,  it  was  his  treatment  subsequent  to  arrest,  when  he  was  a 
prisoner. 

Q.  But  the  fact  was  not  disputed  that  he  was  an  officer  in  the 
Republican  Army?     A.     No,  no. 

Q.  And  as  an  officer  in  that  army,  he  would,  of  course,  have 
taken  part  in  the  operations  of  that  army?  A.  Yes,  of  course,  and 
would  have  been  willing  to  take  the  consequences;  and  the  conse- 
quences, of  course,  should  have  been  in  accordance  with  some  legiti- 


787 

mate  method  of  treatment,   and   not   in   the   barbarous   manner   in 
which  he  was  treated  in  this  case. 

BRITISH  SUPPRESS  IRISH  NEWSPAPERS 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Before  you  go  on,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  I  would  like 
to  ask  you  about  the  Freeman  s  Journal.  Is  that  a  large  and  promi- 
nent newspaper  in  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  the  Freeman  s  Journal  is.  It 
is  a  journal  with  an  unfortunate  reputation  in  Ireland.  It  has 
nearly  always  had  the  reputation  of  being  in  league,  or  practically 
always  in  touch,  with  the  British  authorities  in  Ireland,  or  at  least 
in  sympathy  with  Britain.  However,  there  has  been  a  change  in  the 
management  of  the  Freeman's  Journal  about  six  months  since.  Since 
then  there  has  been  a  change  in  the  tone  of  the  Freeman  s  Journal, 
and  it  has  become  more  sympathetic  with  the  fight  waged  by  the 
people  of  Ireland,  and  has  reported  very  fairly  and  accurately  the 
different  outrages  that  have  occurred  in  the  country.  This  culmi- 
nated with  the  two  reports  with  which  they  were  charged.  One  of 
the  charges  against  them  was  publishing  the  photograph  of  the 
back  of  a  young  man  who  had  been  lashed  in  prison  after  his 
arrest.  The  Government  maintained  that  the  photograph  was  not 
correct,— -was  not  a  true  photograph, — and  they  maintained  it  was. 
And  the  young  fellow  himself  gave  evidence  that  it  was,  and  his 
doctor  also  testified  as  to  his  injuries.  But  despite  that,  the  editor 
and  manager  were  sentenced  to  pay  a  heavy  fine  as  well  as  im- 
prisonment.1 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  The  photographer  also  gave  evidence,  did  he 
not?     A.     Yes,  he  said  the  photograph  was  correct. 

Q.  What  is  the  circulation  of  the  Freeman  s  Journal?  A.  That 
I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  How  many  other  papers  in  Ireland  have  been  suppressed  for 
telling  about  these  outrages?  A.  Well,  there  have  been  a  number 
of  them  suppressed  from  time  to  time;  but  the  only  papers  that  were 
suppressed  of  any  importance  were  the  national  and  weekly  papers. 
The  Cork  Examiner  and  the  Independent,  I  think,  was  suppressed 
for  a  time.  The  Freeman  was  also  suppressed.  Most  of  the  papers 
that  have  been  sympathetic  with  the  Republican  fight  have  been 
suppressed  from  time  to  time;  but  in  most  cases,  as  far  as  the  daily 
press  was  concerned,  the  term  of  suppression  was  short.  But  the 
weekly  press  of  the  Republican  movement  has  been  suppressed  con- 
tinuously for  the  past  three  years.  But  the  result  of  the  suppression 
in  every  case  has  been  to  have  a  new  paper  issued.  They  simply 
change  the  name  of  the  paper  and  start  in  again. 

Q.  What  is  the  alleged  charge  for  the  suppression  of  these  pa- 
pers?    A.     Oh,  there  is  never  a  charge  made.     The  object,  of  course, 


This  photograph  is  reproduced  in  the  Commission's  Report,  p.  89. 


is  to  prevent  full  freedom  of  expression,  and  to  prevent  the  truth 
being  expressed  to  the  world. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Where  is  the  Freeman's  Journal  published? 
A.     In  Dublin. 

PAPERS  DARE  NOT  PUBLISH  SWORN  AFFIDAVITS 
OF  BRITISH  ATROCITIES 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  What  I  want  to  know  is  whether  the  affidavits 
that  you  have  read  were  published  in  those  papers.  A.  Oh,  no, 
not  at  all.  The  suppression  of  the  paper  in  that  case  would  be  a 
permanent  one. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  papers  could  not  publish  those  affidavits 
that  you  have  read  here  today,  even  though  they  are  absolutely  true, 
and  are  sworn  to  under  authority?     A.     No,  not  at  all. 

CROWN  FORCES  COMPEL  PAPERS  TO  PUBLISH 
THREATS 

The  Cork  Examiner  and  the  Evening  Echo  have  been  forced  at 
the  point  of  a  revolver  to  insert  threatening  notices  to  the  citizens. 
These  notices,  while  they  are  not  official,  at  the  same  time  the  Ex- 
aminer's staff  are  forced  to  insert  them  by  visits  of  the  police  force 
to  them,  who  simply  stand  over  them  until  these  notices  are  put  in. 
These  notices  threaten  different  penalties  upon  the  people  of  Cork. 
For  instance,  here  is  an  issue  of  the  Cork  Evening  Echo  for  Decem- 
ber 10,  1920,  which  will  give  you  examples  of  what  these  things  are 
like.  These  notices  are  inserted  in  the  center  of  the  paper  in  strik- 
ing black  type.  The  paper  not  only  has  to  insert  them,  but  is  afraid 
to  refer,  and  never  has  referred  in  any  of  its  columns,  to  the  man- 
ner in  which  these  notices  are  handed  to  them  and  they  are  forced 
to  put  them  in.    This  particular  one  is  headed  in  the  paper: 

"We  have  received  the  following: 

"NOTICE 

"If  G.  Horgan  is  not  returned  by  4  o'clock  on  today  (Friday), 
10th  December,  Rebels  of  Cork,  beware,  as  one  man  and  one 
shop  shall  disappear  for  each  hour  after  the  given  time. 

(Signed)  :  "  'B.  and  T's.'  " 

The  Witness:  That  is  very  important,  because  it  was  inserted  on 
that  day,  December  tenth,  the  day  before  the  burning  out  of  the 
heart  of  commercial  Cork.  It  threatened  definitely  that  if  some- 
thing does  not  happen  about  which  nobody  knows  anything  in  Cork, 
one  man  will  be  shot  and  one  shop  destroyed  for  each  hour  after 
the  given  time. 

Q.     Commissioner  Thomas:    Have  you  any  idea  as  to  who  this 


789 

G.  Horgan   is?      A.     No,  sir.     After  that  everybody   in   Cork   wore 
asking  themselves  who  this  G.  Horgan  was,  and  1  have  never  found 
out  to  this  time. 
The  next  notice  is: 

"We  have  received  the  following: 

"IMPORTANT  NOTICE" 
"We,  the  undersigned,  do  now  give  the  male  sex  of  Cork  City 
notice,  'which  must  be  adhered  to  forthwith,'  that  any  per- 
son of  the  said  sex  who  is  seen  or  found  loitering  at 
street  corners  or  on  the  pathways  without  reasonable  ex- 
cuse why  he  should  be  there,  or  any  man  or  any  boy  found 
to  be  standing  or  walking  with  one  or  both  hands  in  his 
pockets,  will,  if  he  does  not  adhere  to  this  order,  suffer  the 
consequences  which  will  no  doubt  ensue. 

(Signed)  :  "Secretary  of  Death  or  Victory  League. 
"God  Save  the  King  and  Frustrate  His  Enemies." 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  is  the  polities  of  the  paper 
from  which  you  then  read?     A.     Pardon? 

Q.  What  is  the  political  color  of  the  paper  from  which  you  read 
these  notices?  A.  It  was  the  official  organ  in  Cork  of  the  late  Par- 
liamentary Party.  It  is  a  Parliamentary  organ,  mildly  in  sympathy 
with  the  Republic,  but  still  adhering  to  constitutional  methods. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  It  would  have  been  called  a  Redmond  pa- 
per before?     A.     0,  yes,  a  Redmond  paper. 

THE  TORTURE  OF  KEVIN  BARRY 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  you  have  another  affidavit  of  a 
case  following  the  Hales  case?  A.  Not  another  affidavit,  but  I 
want  to  refer  to  Kevin  Barry.  I  want  to  mention  that  case.  Kevin 
Barry  was  a  young  university  student  of  eighteen  years.  He  was 
arrested  following  the  attack  upon  a  military  lorry  in  Dublin.  He 
was  tried  by  court-martial  and  was  hanged.  In  the  interval  between 
his  trial  and  his  execution,  poor  Barry,  so  it  was  stated  by  those  in 
Dublin  who  were  in  a  position  to  know  and  who  were  in  touch  with 
him  and  with  the  prison  while  he  was  there, — they  told  me  that  he 
was  subjected  to  tortures;  that  he  himself  told  them, — one  of  the 
last  messages  that  he  sent  out  of  prison, — that  he  had  had  his  arms 
twisted  until  they  ached  in  an  effort  to  get  from  him  the  names  of 
those  who  were  with  him  on  the  event  of  the  attack  on  the  lorry. 
He  was  subjected  to  that  for  some  four  or  five  days  subsequent  in 
order  to  force  from  him  the  names  of  those  who  were  with  him. 
He,  of  course,  not  only  suffered  tortures  but  suffered  death;  but  he 


790 

certainly  did  not  give  the  names  of  those  who  were  with  him  on  that 
occasion.1 

AMERICAN  PRIEST  ASSAULTED  BY  POLICE 
In  Cork  quite  recently  a  priest  from  Philadelphia,  Rev.  Edmond 
O'Shea,  made  this  deposition  about  what  happened  to  him  in  August 
of  last  year: 

"On  Sunday,  August  9,  1920,  I  was  set  upon  by  Sergeant  Larkin 
and  Policeman  Gallagher,  Blarney,  demanding  what  authority  I  had 
for  putting  a  tri-color  flag  on  Blarney  Castle.  The  question  was  _  so 
absurd  that  I  refused  to  answer;  a  flag  similar  to  the  flag  in  question 
floating  over  the  City  Hall,  Cork,  at  the  time.  The  tri-color  had  been 
left  on  the  top  story  of  the  Castle  by  accident. 

"I  was  immediately  placed  under  arrest.  I  was  thrown  down,  throt- 
tled, and  only  when  my  life  seemed  in  danger  did  it  occur  to  me  to 
state  my  American  citizenship.  In  face  of  two  drawn  revolvers  I 
managed  to  forcibly  escape  from  them,  and  rejoined  my  friends  at  the 
Castle.  Just  there  and  then  I  was  laid  violent  hands  upon  by  the 
police.  Possibly  influenced  by  the  crowd  which  gathered,  the  police 
returned  to  barracks  without  me. 

"On  our  way  home  the  way  was  barred  by  at  least  six  armed  po- 
lice. Larkin  gave  orders  for  them  to  take  forcible  possession  of  me, 
but  the  entire  force  seemed  paralyzed  by  fear,  for  I  passed  through 
without  harm. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is,  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God! 

(Signed)     "Edmond  O'Shea. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  15th  day  of  November,  1920. 
(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Seamus  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Cove   Urban   Council, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

The  Witness:  That  happened  at  Blarney  Castle.  I  don't  know 
whether  the  reputation  of  Blarney  Castle  has  come  to  this  country, 
but  it  is  quite  well  known  in  Ireland. 

PEDESTRIANS    INDISCRIMINATELY    BEATEN   AND 
SHOT 

I  have  already  read  some  depositions  bearing  on  the  everyday 
life  in  Cork.  Under  the  new  conditions  that  have  obtained  there 
during  the  past  three  months,  under  the  new  reign  of  terror,  there 
are  a  few  sworn  statements  which  will  give  you  an  idea  of  what 
ordinary  life  is  like  in  Cork  at  present. 

Sworn   Statement  of  Thomas   Roberts,  2   Windsor  Terrace,   Bally- 
hooley  Road,  St.  Luke's,  Cork 

"As  I  was  walking  home  with  two  friends  on  the  night  of  the  14th 
September,  1920,  we  were  halted  at  St.  Luke's  at  9:50  P.  M.  by  two 
men    dressed   in   dark   overcoats    and   caps.      They   presented    two    re- 

1  Kevin  Barry's  affidavit,  detailing  the  tortures  inflicted  upon  him  in 
prison  to  compel  divulgence  of  information,  is  reproduced  in  the  Com- 
mission's Report,  pp.  90-91. 


791 


volvers  at  us  and  asked  where  we  were  going.  A  third  stranger, 
whom  we  had  passed,  and  dressed  in  a  gray  overcoat  and  slouch  hat, 
had,  as  far  as  I  could  see,  halted  two  other  men  a  little  further  down. 
He  was  seemingly  engaged  in  searching  them,  and  used  the  term  'Sinn 
Feen'  and  filthy  language  many  times.  He  spoke  with  a  decided  Eng- 
lish accent,  as  did  also  the  two  who  accosted  us. 

"It  was  very  dark  at  the  time,  and  we  told  them  that  we  were  going 
home.  One  of  them  caught  me  by  the  throat,  and  pushed  me,  whilst 
the  other  did  likewise  to  one  of  my  friends;  my  third  friend  seeing 
his  opportunity,  escaped.  My  second  friend  managed  to  escape  also, 
and  the  two  strangers  turned  their  attention  to  me.  They  jammed  me 
up  against  the  wall.  The  third  stranger,  either  having  left  the  other 
two  men  go,  or  hearing  the  noise,  rushed  up  and  fired  point  blank 
from  his  revolver  at  me,  the  bullet  entering  my  right  shoulder  and 
skimming  the  lung.  I  fell,  and  they  immediately  ran  away  in  the  direc- 
tion of  Military  Hill,  where  the  Military  Barracks  is  situated. 

"My  friend  came  and  took  me  home,  and  some  time  afterwards  I 
was  taken  in  the  Corporation  ambulance  to  the  North  Infirmary,  ar- 
riving there  at  midnight. 

"We  were  held  up  twice  on  this  journey  by  the  military.  On  one 
occasion,  on  being  told  that  the  ambulance  contained  a  man  who  had 
been  shot  by  them,  a  military  sergeant  came  into  me.  I  had  my  right 
shoulder  bared,  the  still  unbandaged  wound  bleeding  profusely.  He 
caught  hold  of  the  wound  in  a  brutal  fashion,  saying,  'Show  it  to  me  !' 
He  then  searched  me.  A  military  car  accompanied  the  ambulance  to 
the   Infirmary. 

"About  four  days  afterwards  I  went  under  an  operation,  and  the 
bullet  was  extracted  from  my  shoulder.  I  was  in  the  Infirmary  for 
about  three  weeks,  and  I  am   still  unable  to  work. 

"The  whole  assault  happened  without  the  slightest  provocation  on 
my  part. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  statement  is,  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability,  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God  ! 

(Signed):     "Thomas  Roberts. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  16th  day  of  November,  1920. 

(Signed   in   Gaelic)     "Seamus   MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,    Cove    Urban    Council." 

OFFICER  ADMITS  ANONYMOUS  THREATS  ARE 
OFFICIAL 

The  Witness:  During  one  of  the  raids,  one  of  the  many  raids  on 
the  City  Hall  of  Cork,  one  of  the  military  officers  who  was  engaged 
in  the  raid  admitted  the  official  nature  of  one  of  these  threatening 
notices  that  appeared  in  the  press  like  this  I  read  for  you.  This  par- 
ticular one,  as  far  as  I  remember,  threatened  that  for  every  police- 
man or  soldier  killed,  ten  or  twelve  citizens  would  be  shot.  I  am 
not  quite  definite  as  to  the  particular  threat  to  which  it  referred,  but 
I  think  it  was  one  of  that  nature.  For  that  reason,  this  deposition  is 
important,  because  from  the  way  these  other  notices  appear,  it  is 
not  possible  to  say  they  are  official.  They  are  merely  signed  "B.  & 
T.'s"  or  "Secretary  Death  or  Victory  League,"  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  is  the  nature  of  this?  A.  This  is  a 
deposition  by  John  G.  McCarthy,  2  Emmet  Place,  Cork,  and  it  shows 


792 

conclusively  that  these  notices  do  have  an  official  nature.      (Read- 
ing) : 

"I  was  in  a  small  committee  room  adjoining  the  Council  Chamber, 
City  Hall,  Cork,  on  Thursday,  14th  October,  1920,  at  11:25  A.  M.  I 
heard  a  shout  of  'Hands  up !'  resounding  through  the  building,  and  a 
military  officer,  with  four  or  five  soldiers,  armed  with  rifles  held  at  the 
ready,  rushed  into  the  room,  shouting  'Hands  up  !'  I  put  my  hands 
over  my  head.  He  searched  my  pockets,  and  closely  examined  their 
contents.  He  appeared  very  excited.  'What  is  your  business  here?' 
he  said.  I  replied,  'I  am  an  Arbitrator.'  He  asked,  'Who  sent  you 
here?'  I  said,  A  man  whom  I  met  in  the  street.'  He  asked  me  his 
name.     I  said  I  didn't  know  it. 

"At  this  stage  I  complained  that  my  arms  were  tired  from  holding 
them  over  my  head,  and  as  he  had  found  me  unarmed,  that  I  should 
be  allowed  to  put  them  down.  He  turned  to  the  soldiers,  who  had 
had  their  rifles  pointing  at  me  all  this  time,  and  said,  'If  he  moves  his 
arms,  shoot  him  through  the  shoulders.  You  understand?'  One  sol- 
dier replied,  'Yes,  sir.'  He  eventually  allowed  me  cross  my  arms  over 
my  head.  He  then  ordered  the  lady,  who  had  been  the  only  other 
occupant  of  the  room  when  they  entered,  outside. 

"He  turned  to  me  again  and  said,  'You  are  a  murderer.'  I  said, 
'You  are  a  liar.'  He  said,  'If  you  are  not  a  murderer,  you  are  in 
league  with  them.'  He  opened  his  revolver  holster  and  half  drew  his 
revolver  out.  'Now,'  he  said,  'I  am  going  to  get  from  you  the  name 
of  the  man  who  told  you  to  come  here.  You  had  better  think  quickly. 
You  haven't  much  time  now.'  I  had  during  his  incessant  requests  to 
'think'  told  him  that  I  thought  the  man's  name  was  Sullivan.  This  I 
did  merely  to  gain  time.  He  drew  his  revolver  completely  out  of  the 
holster,  as  he  knew  I  was  fooling  him ;  and  the  soldiers  closed  in 
around  with  me  with  their  rifles  levelled  at  me.  I  then  said  forcibly, 
'I  will  give  you  no  more  information.  If  you  will  give  me  a  few 
minutes  to  say  a  few  prayers,  you  can  shoot  away.'  I  said  this,  as  I 
had  gauged  by  this  time  that  he  was  merely  threatening  me.  At  this 
he  put  his  revolver  on  the  table,  and  the  soldiers  stepped  back.  After 
passing  many  remarks  about  the  cowardly  way  the  soldiers  were  mur- 
dered in  the  streets  of  Dublin  in  1916,  and  concerning  those  Sinn 
Feiners  who  go  about  shooting  his  friends,  and  whom  he  knew  all 
about,  he  said,  'Did  you  read  that  document  published  in  the  paper 
the  other  day  under  the  heading,  "An  extraordinary  document?"'  I 
said,  'Yes.     It  was  a  good  joke.'     He  snapped  out,  'That's  no  joke. 

I   know   all   about   that   document,   and   you   b fellows   had   better 

look  out.'  I  said,  'I  have  some  influential  friends,  including  two  mem- 
bers of  Parliament,  who  will  be  interested  in  your  statement,  more 
especially  coming  from  an  officer.'  He  pondered  awhile,  and  glaring, 
said,  'You  may  make  what  use  you  like  out  of  it.'  Taking  from  my 
papers  an  envelope  of  a  letter  addressed  to  me,  and  which  had  come 
through  the  post,  he  said.  'Is  this  your  name  and  address?'  Replying 
in  the  affirmative,  he  olaced  it  in  his  pocket. 

"Subsequently  a  tall  captain  came  into  the  room,  and  I  complained 
of  the  charges  and  treatment  which  had  been  meted  out  to  me.  but  he 
disregarded  my  statement.  He  ordered  two  soldiers  to  take  me  out- 
side and  stand  guard  over  me.  Shortly  afterwards  the  guard  was 
withdrawn,  and  I  departed. 

"I  swear  by  the  Almighty  God  that  the  facts  as  set  forth  in  my 
testimony  are  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  were  given  by  me  voluntarily.     So  help  me  God. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Sean   G.   MacCartaig. 

"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  19th  day  of  October,  1920. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Domnall  O'Ceallacain, 

"Chairman,  Cork  County  Council.'' 


793 

DRUNKEN    CONSTABLES    FIRE    ON     REPUBLICAN 
POLICE 

The  Witness:  This  one  is  by  Robert  MacDonald,  90  French's 
Avenue,  Cove,  County  Cork.      I  Reading )  : 

Affidavit  of  Robert  MacDonald 

"About  1  P.  M.  on  Saturday,  20th  November,  1920,  in  company  with 
three  other  men  I  proceeded  to  the  Baths  Hall,  Cove,  to  arrest,  in  our 
capacity  as  Republican  police,  a  man  in  connection  with  a  series  of 
robberies  and  lootings  which  took  place  during  the  early  hours  of  that 
morning." 

The  Witness:  This  is  interesting  as  showing  the  difficulties  of  the 
Republican  police  force  in  functioning.     (Continues  reading)  : 

"Having  arrested  the  man,  the  other  three  men  proceeded  to  take 
him  to  a  place  of  trial.  I  delayed  a  short  while  in  conversation  with 
the  manager  of  the  Baths  Hall,  and  then  followed  after  them.  At  the 
exit  onto  the  street,  known  as  Harbor  Row,  one  of  the  Republican 
police  stopped  me  to  tell  me  of  the  place  of  trial.  On  the  opposite 
side  of  the  street  I  noticed  four  R.  I.  C.  police  standing,  in  deep  con- 
versation. Immediately  they  saw  us,  they  walked  over  towards  us. 
Wishing  to  evade  arrest,  I  ran  from  them,  and  one  of  the  police  im- 
mediately drew  a  revolver  from  his  pocket.  Shouting,  'Halt !  Hands 
up  !'  they  took  deliberate  aim  at  the  same  time  and  fired  at  us,  but 
fortunately  missed  us.     They  were  under  the  influence  of  drink. 

"I  swear  that  the  foregoing  testimony  is  to  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge and  ability  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth, 
and  that  same  was  given  by  me  voluntary.     So  help  me  God. 

(Signed  in  Gaelic)     "Roibeaird  MacDomnaill. 
"Sworn  in  my  presence  this  5th  day  of  December,   1920. 
(Signed  in   Gaelic)     "Seam us  MacGearailt, 

"Chairman,  Urban  Council  of  Cove, 

"Cork  Poor  Law  Guardian." 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  Republican  police,  in  carrying  out 
their  functions,  do  not  appear  in  uniform,  do  they?  A.  No,  sir,  no 
uniform. 

IRISH  ARMY  NOT  A  "MURDER  GANG";  CAPTURED 
POLICE  RELEASED  UNHARMED 

One  of  the  charges  which  the  British  Government  is  very  fond  of 
making  against  the  Republican  movement  in  Ireland,  and  a  charge 
which  is  especially  frequently  made  by  British  Ministers  answering 
in  the  English  House  of  Commons,  is  that  police  and  soldiers  may 
not  walk  about  in  Ireland  with  safety,  but  that  they  are  liable  to  be 
murdered.  I  think  the  most  definite  and  clear  method  of  refuting 
that  is  that  I  would  like  to  read  some  extracts  taken  from  the  daily 
press  in  Ireland  of  a  number  of  cases  where  a  fight  has  been  fought, 
either  a  fight  in  the  open  or  an  attack  on  a  barrack,  where  that  fight 
has  resulted  in  the  capture  of  either  policemen  or  soldiers.  In- 
variably, absolutely  invariably,  on  these  men  being  disarmed,  they 
have  been  released  unharmed.  I  think  that  shows  in  the  most  con- 
clusive way  the  basis  there  is  for  the  British  charge  that  the  Irish 
Republican  Army  is  a  "murder  gang."     Although  laboring  under 


794 

many  disadvantages,  the  Irish  Republican  Army  has  as  glorious  a 
record  as  any  army  in  the  world.  They  are  neither  murderers  nor 
members  of  any  murder  gang.     (Reading)  : 

"The  'terrible  provocation'  given  to  British  troops  and  police  in.  Ire- 
land. Soldiers  and  police  who  fell  into  the  hands  of  'murderers' 
and   what   became    of   them: 

"The  English  press  in  its  comments  upon  the  burning  and  sacking 
of  Irish  towns  and  cities  by  British  troops  and  police  has  stated  that 
it  understands  'the  terrible  provocation'  to  which  these  British  troops 
and  police  have  been  subjected.  The  following  are  a  few  of  the  inci- 
dents of  'the  terrible  provocation'  given  to  the  British  armed  forces  in 
Ireland :" 

The  Witness:    This  is  May  8th,  reported  in  the  press  May  10th. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  What  year  was  that?  A.  1920.  I  will  give 
in  each  case  the  date  the  attack  occurred  and  the  date  the  report  ap- 
peared in  the  press.  This  runs  from  May,  June,  and  July  through 
August,  1920.     (Reading)  : 

Occurred,  May  8 — Reported  in  Press,  May  10. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Kilbeggan,  County  Meath.     Disarmed  and 

released. 
Occurred,  May  8 — Reported  in  Press,  May  10. 

Cloyne,  County  Cork,  police  barracks  taken.     Six  policemen  captured. 

Disarmed  and  released. 
Occurred,  May  28 — Reported  in  Press,  May  30. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Ballinagh,  County  Cavan.     Disarmed  and 

released. 
Occurred,  May  30 — Reported  in  Press,  June  1. 

One   policeman   captured   at   Dundalk,   County   Louth.      Disarmed   and 

released. 
Occurred,  June  1 — Reported  in  Press,  June  2. 

Thirty   soldiers  captured  at  Dublin.     Disarmed  and   released. 
Occurred,  June  4 — Reported  in  Press,  June  5. 

Drangan,  County  Tipperary,  police  barracks  taken.     Eight  policemen 

captured.     Disarmed  and  released. 
Occurred,  June  5 — Reported  in  Press,  June  7. 

Eleven  soldiers  and  one  policeman  captured  at   Carrigtwohill,   County 

Cork.     Disarmed  and  released. 
Occurred,  June  9 — Reported  in  Press,  June  11. 

Two  military  dispatch   riders  captured  at   Cork   City.     Disarmed  and 

released. 
Occurred,  June  9 — Reported  in  Press,  June  11. 

Military  dispatch  rider  captured  at  Carrigrohane,  County  Cork.     Dis- 
armed and  released. 
Occurred,  June  15 — Reported  in  Press,  June  17. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Tipperary.     Disarmed  and  released. 
Occurred,  June  17 — Reported  in  Press,  June  18. 

Two   policemen   captured   at   Cookstown,    County   Tyrone.     Disarmed 

and  released. 
Occurred,  June  19 — Reported  in  Press,  June  22. 

Six   soldiers   captured  at   Brosna,   County  Kerry.     Disarmed   and    re- 
leased. 
Occurred,  June  20 — Reported  in  Press,  June  22. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Monivea,  County  Galway.     Disarmed  and 

released. 
Occurred,  June  23 — Reported  in  Press,  June  24. 

Officer  and  soldier  captured  at  Drumsna,  County  Leitrim.     Disarmed 

and  released. 


795 

Occurred,  June  23 — Reported  in  Press,  June  25. 

Seven  soldiers  captured  at  Ennis,  County  Clare.  Disarmed  and  re- 
leased. 

Occurred,  June  26— Reported  in  Press,  June  28. 

Brigadier  General  Lucas,  Colonel  Dunford,  and  Colonel  Tyrell  cap- 
tured in  Cork  County.  Dunford  and  Tyrell  released.  Lucas  escaped 
a  month  later. 

Occurred,  June  28— Reported  in  Press,  June  30. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Crosses  Green,  Cork  City.  Disarmed  and 
released. 

Occurred,  July  3 — Reported  in  Press,  July  5. 

Three  soldiers  captured  in   Cork  City.     Disarmed  and   released. 

Occurred,  July  4— Reported  in   Press,  July  5. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Claremorriss,  County  Mayo.  Disarmed 
and  released. 

Occurred,  July  4 — Reported  in  Press,  July  6. 

Nine  soldiers  captured  at  Mohill,  County  Leitrim.  Disarmed  and  re- 
leased. 

Occurred,  July  9 — Reported  in  Press,  July   12. 

Four  policemen  captured  at  Kilfinane,  County  Cork.  Disarmed  and 
released. 

Occurred,  July  10 — Reported  in  Press,  July  12. 

Two  policemen  captured  at  Rathduff,  County  Cork.  Disarmed  and 
released. 

Occurred,  July  13 — Reported  in  Press,  July  14. 

Six  soldiers  and  four  policemen  captured  at  Emly,  County  Limerick. 
Disarmed  and  released. 

Occurred,  July  14 — Reported  in  Press,  July  16. 

One  policeman  captured  at  Mount  Talbot,  County  Roscommon.  Dis- 
armed and  released. 

Occurred,  July  16 — Reported  in  Press,  July  20. 

Three  policemen  at  Curry,  County  Roscommon.  Disarmed  and  re- 
leased. 

Occurred,  July  16 — Reported  in  Press,  July  20. 

Three  policemen  captured  at  Kiltimagh,  County  Mayo.  Disarmed  and 
released. 

Occurred,  July  19 — Reported  in  Press,  July  20. 

Nine  soldiers  captured  at  Dublin.     Disarmed  and  released. 

Occurred,  July  20 — Reported  in  Press,  July  21. 

Eleven  soldiers  captured  at  Tralee,  County  Kerry.  Disarmed  and 
released. 

Occurred,  July  22 — Reported  in  Press,  July  23. 

Ten  marines  captured   in  Kerry.     Disarmed  and   released. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  you  want  to  read  the  whole  list  of 
them?  A.  If  you  do  not  think  it  is  advisable,  sir,  no.  But  I  think 
this  is  important,  because  at  every  available  opportunity  the  Irish 
Republican  Army,  of  which,  you  understand,  every  Irish  Republican 
is,  and,  I  may  say,  justly  is  proud,  has  been  described  by  the  British 
Government  as  a  "murder  gang."  I  have  facts  here  that  will  show 
you,  and  will  show  anybody  clearly  that  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
is  not  a  murder  gang;  that  the  record  shows  clearly  that  they  have 
not  and  never  have  been  a  murder  gang.  When  fights  have  oc- 
curred they  have  been  clean  fights;  and  when  the  fights  are  over, 
they  have  behaved  as  any  army  in  the  world  would  where  there  are 
conditions  of  valor  and  decency  maintained. 

Q.     I  quite  understand  that,  sir,  but  I  thought  it  might  save  your 


796 

voice  and  your  time  by  just  giving  us  the  summary  of  it.     A.     Cer- 
tainly, sir.     (Reading)  : 

"It  will  be  seen  from  these  incidents  that  in  the  four  months  of 
May,  June,  July  and  August,  1920,  269  armed  British  troops  and  po- 
lice fell  into  the  hands  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army,  which  the  British 
Premier  and  the  British  press  represent  as  a  'huge  murder  society.' 
None  of  these  British  agents,  in  spite  of  the  utmost  provocation  given 
for  many  years  by  them,  was  injured.  They  were  treated  with  the 
full  courtesy  due  to  prisoners  of  war,  and  were  released  as  speedily 
as  possible,  the  vast  majority  of  them  not  being  held  more  than  a  few 
hours." 

The  Witness:  That  contrasts  very  strongly  and  very  glaringly 
with  the  treatment  meted  out  to  our  men  when  they  have  been 
taken  prisoners. 

ESCAPING  ENEMY  NEVER  SHOT  IN  BACK  BY 
IRISH  ARMY 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  have  you  any  cases  where  a 
member  of  the  English  soldiery  or  the  English  Constabulary,  where 
he  walked  away  and  was  shot  by  a  member  of  the  Irish  Army  in  the 
back?     A.    No,  sir,  never,  never! 

Q.  But  you  have  cases  of  the  reverse,  where  a  member  of  the 
Irish  Army  got  away,  and  was  shot  by  members  of  the  British 
forces  in  the  back?     A.     A  great  many  of  them. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  much  longer  do  you  want  to  continue, 
Mr.  Lord  Mayor?  A.  Well,  I  think  another  quarter  of  an  hour 
would  enable  us  to  break  off  conveniently. 

Q.  We  do  not  want  to  unduly  fatigue  you.  It  is  very  interesting. 
A.     It  is  all  right,  sir,  all  right. 

A  RECORD  OF  ENEMY  ACTIVITIES  IN  CORK 

I  have  here  reports  that  have  been  compiled  by  ourselves  in  Cork 
as  a  kind  of  record  of  the  events  of  the  month.  I  have  three  or 
four  of  them  here,  and  it  will  not  be  necessary  to  read  them  all.  But 
if  you  do  not  desire  to  hear  them  now,  I  will  run  through  one  of 
them  so  as  to  give  you  an  idea  of  what  an  accurate  and  complete 
record  of  the  activities  of  the  enemy  in  Cork  is  like. 

Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Chairman,  the  Lord  Mayor  has  come  for  three 
thousand  miles,  and  the  evidence  he  has  is  most  important;  and  I 
think  he  should  be  allowed  to  give  it  in  his  own  way,  and  that  he 
should  be  allowed  to  give  it  in  his  own  time.  And  I  suggest  that, 
if  the  Commission  wishes  it,  you  give  him  time  to  do  so  tomorrow 
morning,  because  it  leads  up  to  the  burning  of  Cork,  which,  I  think, 
outrivals  anything  about  the  burning  of  Louvain,  or  anything  that 
has  been  recorded  of  the  Germans  at  their  worst  in  Belgium. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  How  long  will  it  take?  A.  Ten 
minutes  or  a  quarter  of  an  hour. 

Q.     Chairman   Wood:    Would  you  rather  give  it  now,  or  start 


797 

there  in  the  morning?  A.  Well,  perhaps  that  would  be  as  well. 
Or  we  can  cover  these  summaries  and  the  lists  of  the  murders  now. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  suggest,  if  we  are  coming  to  the 
particular  events  in  Cork,  might  it  not  be  a  good  plan,  if  there  are 
figures  summarizing  the  murders  of  civilians  in  Cork,  that  we 
should  have  them  now?  That  will  give  us  a  background  for  the 
recent  facts  about  the  burning  of  Cork,  which  we  can  take  up  to- 
morrow morning. 

Senator  Norris:  Yes,  if  he  has  those  figures.  He  has  given  us 
the  figures  up  to  August. 

The  Witness:  Yes,  I  have  them,  sir. 

Chairman  W7ood:  You  gave  us  the  record  from  January,  1919,  up 
to  August  first,  1920. 

The  Witness:  Well,  perhaps  it  would  be  as  well,  if  you  would 
like,  that  I  start  there  in  the  morning. 

Chairman  Wood:  Then  we  will  adjourn  to  9 :.'}()  tomorrow  morn- 
ing.    Can  the  Commission  have  tin  executive  session  now? 

(Adjournment  4:45  P.  M.) 


FIFTH  HEARINGS 

Session  Two 

Before  the  Commission  sitting  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Friday,  January  14,  1921. 

Session  called  to  order  by  Chairman  Wood  at  ten  o'clock  A.  M. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  hearings  will  resume  this  morning  with 
the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  continuing  his  statement.  I  want  to  put  on 
the  record  for  reference  this  pamphlet,  "Facts  About  Ireland  for 
the  Consideration  of  America,"  supplied  by  the  delegates  of  the 
Protestant  Churches  of  Ireland.  I  will  have  it  marked  so  that  we 
can  refer  to  it. 

(The  pamphlet  referred  to  was  marked  "No.  1.  January  14, 
1921.") 

Chairman  Wood:    Proceed,  Mr.  O'Callaghan. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LORD  MAYOR  DONAL 
O'CALLAGHAN— (Continued) 

Corrections  for  the  Sake  of  Accuracy 

The  Witness:  I  should  like  to  refer  to  a  few  inaccuracies  in  the 
reports  of  yesterday's  hearing.  One  report,  to  which  my  attention 
has  been  called  this  morning,  relates  to  one  of  the  depositions 
which  I  read  last  evening,  that  of  Mr.  Thomas  Hales  of  Bandon, 
County  Cork.  It  is  a  lengthy  deposition  which  I  read  last  evening; 
and  I  find  that  some  papers  have  certain  statements  therein  attrib- 
uted to  myself.    That,  of  course,  I  wish  to  correct. 

There  is  also  one  slight  correction  I  have  to  make  with  re- 
gard to  the  evidence  I  gave  yesterday.  I  understand  that  I  referred 
in  error,  and  unintentionally,  in  dealing  with  the  meeting  in  Dublin 
of  a  section  of  the  police  force  asking  to  be  relieved  of  the  duty  of 
carrying  arms,  and  asking  to  be  confined  to  police  duties  as  such 
peace  officers  only,  that  I  mentioned  the  auxiliary  police.  If  so, 
that  is  incorrect.  The  body  that  took  that  action  and  held  that 
meeting  was  the  reserve  force  of  the  constabulary,  the  reserve  force 
of  the  ordinary  police  force,  and  not  the  special  auxiliary  force. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  You  mean  the  second  group  to 
which  you  referred?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  What  you  said  about  the  Dublin  police  is  correct?  A.  Yes. 
But  the  statement  as  to  the  auxiliary  force  is  incorrect.  It  is  the 
reserve  force  retained  at  the  depot  in  Dublin  who  took  that  action. 

Q.  Are  not  the  Dublin  police  called  the  Metropolitan  Police? 
A.  Yes.  The  men  referred  to  on  that  occasion  are  the  special  re- 
serve force  of  the  ordinary  police  force,  who  are  retained  in  the 
police  depot  in  Dublin,  retained  for  emergencies,  to  be  shipped  to 

798 


799 

any  particular  part  of  the   country  where  they  happen   to  he   re- 
quired. 

CHARACTER  OF  MEN  ON  REPUBLICAN  COUNCILS 

There  are  just  a  few  matters  which  I  should  like  to  deal  with  as 
supplementary  to  the  matters  dealt  with  yesterday.  I  dealt  yesterday 
with  the  public  boards.  I  might  refer  to  the  personnel  of  these 
boards,  as  I  should  like  to  make  it  clear  that  these  public  boards 
are  made  up  of  representative  men,  and  that  every  one  of  them 
have  on  them  men  of  standing. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  county  councils?  A.  The  county 
councils  and  the  corporations.  In  the  county  councils  the  vast  ma- 
jority of  the  members  are  large  farmers.  There  is  also,  of  course, 
the  labor  representation.  In  the  cities  there  may  be  representatives 
on  the  corporations  of  university  professors,  merchants,  and  of 
course  the  labor  representatives;  but  the  representation  in  no  case 
is  confined  to  any  particular  class  of  the  community. 

I  should  like  to  supplement  that  in  the  Cork  Corporation  we 
have  members  like  Professor  Stockley,  a  deposition  from  whom 
was  read  yesterday,  and  another  of  whose  depositions  will  be  read 
today.  Professor  Stockley  is  a  graduate  of  the  National  Univer- 
sity of  Ireland  and  Professor  of  English  Literature  in  Cork  Uni- 
versity College.  Professor  O'Reilly  is  also  a  professor  at  the  Cork 
University  College  and  registrar  at  that  college.  He  also  is  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Cork  Corporation. 

There  are  also  some  of  the  most  prominent  men  in  business,  such 
as  Mr.  Barry  Eagan,  who  is  the  proprietor  of  one  of  the  largest 
jewelry  stores  in  Cork,  one  of  the  stores  which  was  burned  out  re- 
cently; Mr.  Frank  Dailey,  'who  is  managing  director  of  the  Sutton 
Stores  of  Cork,  one  of  the  largest  coal  and  agricultural  implement 
houses  in  the  city;  and  so  on. 

Q.  What  is  the  religion  of  these  men?  A.  The  religion  would 
be,  I  think,  Catholic;  yes,  Roman  Catholic. 

Q.  But  on  the  Corporation  Council  there  are  a  number  of  Prot- 
estants? A.  Yes;  but  the  majority  of  course  would  lie  Catholic. 
Professor  Stockley  was  at  one  time  professor  in  Ottawa  University. 

THE  MURDER  OF  PRIESTS 

On  yesterday  I  referred  to  attacks  on  citizens  and  murders  of  citi- 
zens generally.  I  should  like  now  to  refer  particularly  to  priests. 
There  have  been  recently  at  least  two  glaring  murders  of  Catholic 
priests.  Father  Griffin,  who  was  one  to  be  murdered,  was,  I  under- 
stand, in  receipt  of  an  invitation  from  your  Commission  to  attend 
here  and  give  evidence,  and  had  actually  applied  for  his  passport 
to  enable  him  to  come  here,  when  he  was  taken,  and  after  being 


800 

missing  for  about  a  week,  was  discovered  murdered  in  a  bog  near 
his  home. 

Q.  Was  that  in  Gal  way?  A.  Yes.  Still  more  recently  there 
was  the  murder  of  Canon  Magner,  who  was  shot. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  was  any  publicity  given  to  the 
fact  that  Father  Griffin  had  received  an  invitation  from  us,  and  that 
it  was  on  that  account  that  he  was  kidnapped,  or  anything  of  that 
sort?  A.  That  has  been  the  general  impression,  the  general  ru- 
mor; but  so  far  as  publicity  is  concerned,  I  do  not  remember  at  the 
moment  ever  having  read  it  in  the  press.  But  that  certainly  was 
taken  generally  in  Ireland  as  the  explanation  of  the  matter. 

Q.  He  had  not  been  particularly  active,  or  a  person  obnoxious 
to  the  authorities  on  account  of  his  Sinn  Fein  activities  before  that 
time?  A.  Not  so  far  as  I  understand,  beyond  the  fact  that  he  was 
a  member  of  the  organization.     He  was,  of  course,  a  Republican. 

Q.  You  did  not  know  him  personally,  anyway,  did  you?  A. 
No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  I  would  like  to  know  whether  the 
British  Government  ever  took  any  steps  at  all  to  discover  the  mur- 
derer of  Father  Griffin.  A.  No,  sir;  they  did  not.  There  have 
been  a  number  of  cases  apart  from  actual  murders  where  priests 
have  been  assaulted,  where  they  have  been  arrested,  tried  and  sen- 
tenced. In  Cork  on  the  night  of  the  big  fire  there  were  two  priests 
at  least  assaulted.  They  were  knocked  down,  beaten,  their  clothes 
torn,  and  in  one  case,  at  all  events,  a  demand  made  on  them  that 
they  should  repeat  the  words,  "To  hell  with  the  Pope." 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Have  you  their  names?  A.  I  have  their 
names,  yes.  One  of  them  was  Father  MacSweeney  of  Saint  Peter 
and  Paul's,  Cork.  I  will  give  you  the  name  of  the  other  later.  I 
might  add  that  the  raids  that  I  spoke  of  yesterday  are  not  confined 
to  private  houses,  but  were  also  on  churches,  parochial  houses,  and 
so  on. 

CITIZENS  MURDERED  INDISCRIMINATELY  BY 
BOMBS 

A  new  development  also  in  the  murders  complained  of  was  the 
throwing  of  bombs.  Until  then  the  murders  had  been  perpetrated 
by  shooting,  but  within  the  past  two  months  in  Cork  there  have 
been  two  cases  where  murder  has  been  perpetrated  by  bombing. 
In  one  case,  at  about  half-past  nine,  in  Patrick  Street,  Cork,  a  bomb 
was  thrown  at  a  number  of  young  men.  Three  of  them  were  killed, 
not  outright;  one  was  killed  outright,  and  the  other  two  died  shortly 
after  admission  to  the  infirmary;  and  a  number,  about  sixteen  or 
eighteen,  were  seriously  wounded. 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  Were  the  bombs  thrown  by  the 
military?     A.     By  the  police.     In  the  second  case,  within  two  or 


80i 

three  days  of  that,  a  bomb  was  thrown  into  the  workshop  of  an 
undertaker  in  the  Blackpool  District,  and  two  men  were  killed. 
One  of  the  results  of  that  was  that  in  Cork,  where  we  have  a  special 
Republican  plot  for  men  who  were  murdered  at  the  hands  of  the 
enemy  in  the  city  cemetery,  to  that  plot  on  two  occasions  there  were 
two  funerals  in  which  three  coffins  were  carried  together,  in  both 
cases. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  the  police  or  the  military  carry  these 
bombs  openly?  Have  they  been  seen  carrying  them?  Of  what 
nature  are  the  bombs?  A.  In  some  cases  people  have  declared 
they  have  seen  the  small  bombs,  small  Mills  bombs,  carried  in  the 
hands. 

Q.  You  have  no  deposition  of  anybody  who  has  actually  seen 
a  bomb  thrown?     A.     No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  What  you  are  telling  us  now  is  reports  in  the  city?  A.  The 
definite  facts  are  the  two  bombs  which  took  place,  to  which  I  have 
referred;  and  the  other  is  report. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  That  has  not  been  denied  by  the  British  authori- 
ties, has  it, — that  those  bombs  have  been  thrown?     A.    Oh,  no. 

Q.     So  they  are  accepted  as  true?     A.     That  is  so. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  circum- 
stances which  led  up  to  the  throwing  of  those  bombs?  A.  No,  sir. 
I  know  of  nothing  which  would  in  any  way  explain  why  that  should 
happen.  I  knew  personally  two  of  the  three  men  who  were  killed 
in  the  first  bombing  outrage;  but  I  do  not  know  of  any  reason  why 
they  particularly  should  have  been  dealt  with  in  that  drastic  fashion. 
They  were,  of  course,  Republicans,  members  of  the  Republican 
Army;  but  I  know  of  nothing  particularly  in  their  cases  which 
would  account  for  their  being  dealt  with  in  that  drastic  fashion. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  you  mean  to  suggest  by  such 
statements  as  that  and  the  one  which  you  have  made  previously  that 
merely  to  be  Republican  is  sufficient  reason  for  death  or  torture,  if 
by  accident  or  whim  or  otherwise  this  particular  Republican  re- 
ceives a  visitation  of  the  various  types  of  the  military  forces?  A. 
That  is  exactly  what  I  mean,  yes. 

PRIESTS  BEATEN  AND  ABUSED 
The  name  of  the  second  priest  to  whom   I   referred   was  Father 

McCarthy.      (Reading):    "Reverend  P.  MacSweeney — 

Q.     Chairman    Wood:    What    is    that    from?       A.      The    Irish 

Weekly  Independent  of  December  18. 

Q.     And  where  is  it  published?     A.     It  is  published   in   Dublin. 

(Continues  reading)  : 

"Reverend  P.  MacSweeney,  Chaplain  to  the  Good  Shepherds  and 
Professor  of  Farranferris,  while  returning  home  by  tram  about  nine 
o'clock,   is  alleged  to  have  been   taken  out  of  the  tram   at   St.   Luke's 


802 

corner  and  assaulted  by  five  or  six  armed  men,  who  boarded  and 
stopped  the  tram.  It  is  stated  they  tore  off  Father  MacSweeney's  over- 
coat, coat,  vest  and  collar,  and  kicked  his  breviary.  The  other  passen- 
gers, including  three  or  four  women  and  seven  or  eight  men,  were 
ordered  off  the  tram  also,  and  the  men  made  to  stand  against  the 
wall.     One  of  the  armed  men  said,  pointing  to  Father  MacSweeney: 

'We  have  a  b Papist  at  last.'     The  laymen  were  allowed  to  go, 

and  then  Father  MacSweeney  was  knocked  down  and  ordered  to  write 
'To  hell  with  the  Pope.'  He  said  that  surely  they  did  not  expect  a 
Catholic  priest  to  do  that.  After  a  consultation  he  was  again  as- 
saulted and  told,  'Clear !'  and  his  clothes  kicked  towards  him.  He 
took  his  clothes  in  his  arms  and  ran  to  his  residence,  a  few  hundred 
yards  further  on.  One  of  his  assailants  spoke  with  a  marked  North- 
ern accent. 

"Rev.  F.  McCarthy,  Chaplain  to  the  Incurable  Hospital,  while  walk- 
ing from  St.  Patrick's  church  to  his  residence  in  St.  Luke's  the  same 
night,  at  about  9:15,  was  halted  by  armed  men  at  Summerhill,  as- 
saulted, and  then  prodded  with  a  bayonet  and  told  to  run.  He  ran, 
and  five  shots  were  fired,  none  of  which  took  effect.  Fortunately  he 
got  home  safely." 

The  Witness:  While  that  is  the  press  report,  and  while  I  have 
not  actually  spoken  to  either  of  the  two  men  concerned,  I  know  that 
the  facts  are  correct,  inasmuch  as  Professor  Stockley,  with  whom  we 
have  already  been  dealing,  is  a  personal  friend  of  both  men,  and 
he  has  verified  the  facts. 

REPUBLICAN  FUNERALS  RESTRICTED  BY  ARMED 
TROOPS 

In  Ireland  also,  having  entered  on  this  murder  campaign,  all  that 
was  left,  in  the  cases  where  a  murder  was  perpetrated,  to  the  friends 
and  sympathizers  of  the  murdered  was  to  pay  their  last  respects  by 
attending  a  funeral  demonstration.  The  British  Government  then 
issued  an  order  limiting  the  attendance  at  the  funerals  of  these  men, 
limiting  them  to  fifty, — fifty  relatives  and  friends;  and  it  has  often 
happened  in  towns  or  cities,  as  it  has  in  Cork,  that  practically  all 
the  people  of  the  city  turned  out  at  a  particular  funeral,  wishing  to 
pay  their  last  respects  to  the  particular  man  or  men  who  had  been 
murdered,  but  they  are  prevented  by  the  military  forces.  On  these 
occasions  the  funeral  starts  from  the  church.  The  streets  are 
thronged,  and  when  the  fifty  or  the  hundred,  as  the  case  may  be, 
have  fallen  in  after  the  hearse  bearing  the  coffin,  the  military  then 
prevent  any  more  from  joining,  and  the  remainder  of  the  people 
have  to  remain  on  the  sidewalks  and  look  on.  They  are  prevented 
from  paying  that  last  tribute  of  respect.  The  order  dealing  with 
that  particular  restriction,  in  these  cases,  is  delivered  on  the  morn- 
ing of  the  funeral,  with  the  result  that  in  most  cases  the  order  is 
delivered  while  the  requiem  mass,  which  usually  precedes  the  burial, 
is  in  progress.  In  some  cases,  especially  in  one  case  which  I  re- 
member distinctly,  the  case  of  one  of  the  men  who  died  on  the 
hunger  strike  in  the  Cork  jail,  Fitzgerald,  in  that  case  while  the 
Church  of  St.  Peter  and  Paul  in  Cork  was  thronged  at  the  requiem 


803 

mass,  the  soldiers  arrived  outside,  entered  the  church,  and  marched 
right  through  the  church  from  the  door  at  the  extreme  end  to  the 
altar,  or  just  outside  the  altar  rails,  where  the  priests  were  officiating, 
and  there  and  then  served  on  Father  O'Reilly,  who  was  parish  priest, 
the  order  prohibiting  the  taking  part  in  the  procession  of  more  than 
fifty  relatives  and  friends.  To  insure  that  these  orders  are  carried 
out,  the  funeral  procession  is  accompanied  by  lorries,  armed  cars, 
and  tanks,  which  parade  the  route  to  the  cemetery. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Are  there  many  tanks  in  Ireland?  A.  0, 
there  would  be  quite  a  large  number.  Of  course,  I  could  not  give 
you  an  estimate. 

Q.  It  is  a  common  occurrence  to  see  them?  A.  0,  yes,  daily. 
They  pass  through  the  streets  daily,  yes. 

REPUBLICAN  LEADERS  SEIZED  AS  HOSTAGES 

One  of  the  most  recent  developments  in  general  conduct  has  been 
the  issuing  of  an  official  order  by  the  military  authorities  stating 
that  in  the  future  when  military  cars  and  lorries  pass  through  the 
streets  or  go  on  journeys,  that  prominent  Republicans  will  be  taken 
within  the  cars  as  hostages.  The  order  in  the  case  of  Cork  was  is- 
sued by  the  General  Officer  Commanding,  and  it  reads: 

NOTICE 

"Notice  is  hereby  given  that  on  account  of  the  numerous  attacks 
which  have  been  and  are  being  made  by  rebel  forces  on  motors  and 
lorries  conveying  forces  of  the  Crown,  officers  and  leaders  of  the  rebel 
forces  (commonly  known  as  the  Irish  Republican  Army)  will,  in 
future,  be  carried  in  government  motors  and  lorries. 

"Given  under  my  hand  at  Cork  this  eighteenth  day  of  December, 
1920. 

(Signed)  :     "H.  A.  Higginson, 
"Brigadier  General,  Military  Coventor." 

That  has  been  carried  out  pretty  generally,  and  one  of  the  men 
who  has  been  arrested  and  so  taken  during  these  drives  as  a  hostage 
for  the  military  has  been  the  Mayor  of  Kilkenny.  Following  that, 
while  the  Mayor  was  still  retained  under  arrest,  the  Mayor's  brother 
wrote  protesting  and  asking  for  information,  but  I  have  not  heard 
that  he  got  any  reply. 

ATTACKS  ON  LORRIES  CARRYING  SOLDIERS 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  This  order  of  General  Higginson 
states  that  it  is  done  to  prevent  attacks  on  lorries  filled  with  soldiers. 
Was  it  customary  in  the  City  of  Cork  for  the  Irish  Republican  Army 
to  make  such  attacks  on  motor  lorries?  A.  Not  customary.  There 
have  been  such  attacks. 

Q.  About  how  many?  A.  I  know  of  only  one  definitely.  As 
to  a  second,  which  was  alleged  to  have  occurred  on  the  night  of  the 


804 

fire,  the  general  belief  was  that  such  attack  did  not  take  place,  inas- 
much as  it  was  alleged  to  have  taken  place  within  a  hundred  or  a 
couple  of  hundred  yards  of  the  large  military  barracks  in  Cork. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  You  say  you  know  of  one  case?  A.  There 
was  one  case  where  a  lorry  was  attacked  some  months  since.  It  is 
the  only  case  I  know  of  where  such  a  car  was  attacked. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  it  not  the  fact  that  ambuscades 
or  ambushes,  where  they  are  carried  out,  are  in  the  country  rather 
than  in  the  cities  near  barracks?     A.    Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Could  you  tell  us  about  this  case,  the  de- 
tails of  which  you  know?  A.  I  cannot  give  you  the  facts.  As  I 
remember  them  from  the  press  reports  at  the  time,  the  facts  were 
that  at  about  a  quarter  of  nine 

Q.  At  night?  A.  No,  in  the  morning.  A  military  lorry  was 
proceeding  on  Barracks  Street  and  that  it  was  attacked  by  revolver 
fire.  It  was  also  alleged  that  some  bombs  were  thrown.  One  sol- 
dier was  badly  wounded  and  died  subsequently,  and  some  of  the 
other  soldiers  were  wounded.  These  briefly  were  the  facts  in  that 
particular  case. 

Q.  Were  any  of  the  attacking  party  killed  or  injured?  A.  No, 
they  were  not,  as  reported. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  there  were  in  the  attacking 
party?  A.  As  far  as  I  remember,  the  press  at  that  time  gave  the 
number  of  the  attacking  party  as  being  in  all  about  twenty. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  in  the  case  of  such 
attacks,  either  in  Cork  or  in  the  country,  do  the  members  of  the 
attacking  party  wear  any  insignia  whatsoever  to  designate  them  as 
members  of  an  armed  and  disciplined  force?  A.  No,  not  that  I 
know  of.    I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  To  outward  appearances  they  are  seemingly  attacks  by  civil- 
ians, or  men  in  civilian  clothes?     A.    Yes,  that  is  so. 

BRITISH     GOVERNMENT     ORDERS     INDISCRIMI- 
NATE DESTRUCTION  OF  HOUSES  AS  REPRISAL 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Since  you  are  speaking  of  ambuscades 
and  ambushes,  recently  an  order  has  been  issued,  as  I  understand 
it,  by  the  military  authorities  in  connection  with  the  destruction  of 
buildings  and  so  forth  near  where  an  ambuscade  or  ambush  took 
place.  Have  you  a  copy  of  that,  or  can  you  tell  us  something  about 
that?  A.  No,  I  have  not,  but  for  a  considerable  time  where  an 
attack  of  that  kind  has  taken  place  on  a  section  of  the  Crown  forces, 
it  has  been  followed  generally  by  the  destruction  of  a  number  of 
dwelling  houses  in  the  particular  vicinity,  and  in  many  cases  by 
murders  as  well.  The  British  Government  have  always  denied,  until 
quite   recently,   that  these  were   reprisals.     They   always   took   the 


805 

attitude  that  the  claim  that  these  were  reprisals  was  quite  wrong 
until  quite  recently,  when  it  has  been  stated  openly  and  definitely 
in  the  British  House  of  Parliament  that  the  order  has  heen  issued 
not  only  enabling  but  definitely  commanding  that  houses  where 
these  things  have  occurred  may  be  and  should  be  destroyed.  The 
statement  that  at  any  time  such  attacks  have  been  made  from  houses 
or  that  shots  have  been  fired  from  houses  is  entirely  incorrect,  be- 
cause it  is  obvious  that  in  view  of  the  danger  existing  that  these 
houses  would  be  destroyed,  attacks  therefore  would  be  made  in  the 
open.  If  the  shooting  took  place  from  the  house,  of  course  it  was 
absolutely  certain  that  that  house  went.  But  it  seemed  that  a  house 
where  there  was  no  firing  at  all  took  place,  and  which  simply  hap- 
pened to  be  in  the  vicinity  of  the  attack,  would  as  often  in  the 
course  of  events  be  used  for  such  a  purpose. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Following  Dr.  Thomas'  question,  has  an  order 
been  issued  in  Ireland  that  no  man  should  be  allowed  to  wear  a 
uniform?     A.    0,  yes. 

Q.     Or  an  insignia  of  any  kind?     A.     Yes. 

REASON  FOR  AMBUSH  OF  POLICEMEN 

Q.  Major  Newman:  While  we  are  on  the  subject,  you  gave  us 
yesterday  some  figures  as  to  the  killings  that  had  occurred  during 
the  most  of  last  year.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  figures  as  to  the  number  of  police  or  military 
who  have  been  killed?     A.     No,  I  have  not  any  returns  on  that. 

Q.  We  have  had  very  little  testimony, — we  have  tried  to  get  it, 
because  the  Commission  is  endeavoring  to  ascertain  all  of  the  facts 
in  this  situation, — but  we  have  not  got  very  much  testimony  as  to 
the  attacks  by  the  civilians  on  the  military  force  or  the  police.  We 
would  appreciate  very  much  if  you  have  any  information  of  that 
kind  you  can  give  us.  All  we  have  practically  is  what  we  read  in 
the  newspapers  here  that  attacks  do  occur.  If  you  can  enlighten  us 
any  on  that  we  would  like  to  have  you  do  so.  A.  No,  I  have  not 
any  returns,  but  I  can  offset  it  for  you  to  a  large  extent  in  this  way; 
that  even  with  a  return  with  the  number  of  soldiers  or  policemen 
who  have  been  killed  in  Ireland,  had  we  that  return,  it  would  not 
be  such  as  would  counterbalance  the  figures  in  the  statement  I  gave, 
because  it  is  in  an  entirely  different  category.  In  practically  all 
cases,  with  certain  isolated  exceptions  where  particular  reasons  ob- 
tain, these  men  are  always  killed  in  attacks,  in  fighting.  In  these 
attacks  and  in  that  fighting  there  are  as  many  if  not  more, — at  all 
events  there  are  also  a  large  number  of  the  attacking  forces  killed 
and  wounded.  But  you  have  not  got  any  testimony  on  that  because 
we,  the  Irish  people  and  the  Irish  Army,  do  not  complain  about  that. 
In  so  far  as  military  operations  happen  to  be  necessary,  some  cas- 
ualties of  course  must  take  place  on  both  sides.     So  that  the  cas- 


806 

ualties  on  the  police  side  would  nearly  offset  the  casualties  in  actual 
operations  on  the  Republican  side,  which  you  have  not  got.  The 
testimony  that  you  are  getting  is  as  to  outrages  and  murders,  en- 
tirely dissociated  from  military  operations  wantonly  perpetrated 
upon  the  civilian  population. 

Q.  I  understand  that.  But  is  it  true  or  is  it  not  true  that  there 
have  been  cases  of  killing  of  policemen  from  ambush,  or  what  they 
term  murders?     A.     From  ambush? 

Q.  The  reports  from  British  sources  always  refer  to  them  as  "a 
policeman  murdered"  or  "a  member  of  the  military  murdered." 
A.  0,  yes,  policemen  have  been  killed  from  ambush,  and  just  as  I 
have  tried  to  explain  to  you,  the  men  ambushing  them  have  fre- 
quently been  killed. 

Q.  The  point  in  my  mind  is  this,  that  we  have  not  got  very  much 
information  as  to  how  that  has  occurred,  where  and  how  frequently, 
how  it  is  done,  and  so  on.  A.  I  understand.  I  have  not  got  any 
data  bearing  on  that. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  your  knowledge  that  you  can  give  us  as 
to  that, — not  necessarily  statistics?  A.  No,  I  do  not  know  that 
there  is,  except  that  generally  the  casualties  in  these  attacks  are  not 
so  heavy.  As  a  general  rule  the  casualties  on  either  side  run  some- 
thing like  two  or  three  men,  very  often  one  man,  and  very,  very 
frequently  these  attacks  are  made  and  finished  without  any  loss  of 
life  at  all.   . 

Q.  Just  what  do  you  mean  by  "these  attacks?"  What  do  you 
have  in  mind?  A.  The  attacks  you  referred  to,  the  attacks  from 
ambush  on  military  vehicles  or  on  patrols.  These  things  do  not 
lead  to  loss  of  life  on  a  large  scale,  an  attack  of  the  kind  you 
refer  to. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  cause  of  an  attack  of  that  kind?  What 
is  the  background  for  it?  What  would  lead  up  to  it?  Why  would 
it  happen?  A.  The  main  reason,  I  take  it,  would  be  the  disarma- 
ment. It  would  be  for  the  purpose  of  getting  arms,  which  the  Gov- 
ernment renders  impossible  in  any  other  way    by  prohibition. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  cases  in  which  attacks  have  been  made 
and  arms  secured?  I  had  wondered  if  you  could  give  us  one  or 
two  typical  cases  of  that  character?  A.  Yes.  I  gave  you  quite  a 
number  of  these  yesterday.  If  you  remember,  there  was  quite  a 
long  list  that  I  read,  or  that  I  was  reading,  until  it  was  suggested 
that  it  was  too  long  to  finish,  of  cases  where  policemen  had  been 
attacked,  disarmed,  and  released.  At  the  time  I  read  it  to  show  that 
where  policemen  have  been  captured,  they  have  been  released  after 
being  disarmed.     You  had  quite  a  list  of  them  handed  in  yesterday. 

Q.  The  point  you  were  making  in  that  was  to  show,  as  I  recall 
it   that  these  men  were  treated  decently?     A.     Yes. 


807 

Q.  And  that  there  was  some  idea  of  recognizing  the  honors  of 
war?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  point  in  my  mind  is  that  we  would  like  to  have,  if  you 
could  give  it  to  us,  some  rather  definite  information  as  to  attacks  by 
the  Sinn  Fein  or  citizens  upon  the  military  authorities  or  police. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Would  you  say,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  that  the 
attacks,  a  list  of  which  you  gave  yesterday,  had  for  their  motive  the 
obtaining  of  arms  in  almost  every  case?  A.  I  should  say  that  that 
was  the  object  in  every  case.  In  some  cases,  for  instance,  in  an  at- 
tack which  took  place  on  the  police,  there  would  be  as  a  reason  the 
attempt  to  release  one  further  grip  of  the  British  on  Ireland;  but  in 
every  case  one  of  the  reasons,  and  a  very  important  reason,  would 
be  the  procurement  of  arms,  inasmuch  as  the  arms  must  be  pro- 
cured, and  they  cannot  be  procured  in  any  other  way. 

This  (indicating)  is  a  copy,  I  think,  of  the  statement  I  referred 
to,  which  was  read  yesterday  and  handed  in,  and  it  gives — the  dif- 
ferent dates  running  from  May  down,  instances  of  two  policemen 
captured  and  disarmed  and  released,  and  so  on.  For  instance, 
May  8th,  in  Cloyne,  6  policemen  were  captured  in  the  attack  on 
the  police  barracks,  and  they  were  disarmed  and  released. 

MILITARY  ACTIVITIES  OF  REPUBLICAN  ARMY 

Q.  In  the  instances  to  which  these  refer,  should  they  be  con- 
sidered military  activities  of  the  Republican  army?  A.  0,  yes, 
I  should  think  so, — speaking,  of  course,  without  any  particular 
knowledge  of  the  particular  case,  but  generally  taking  the  descrip- 
tion of  the  particular  attack,  I  should  say  so. 

Q.  Take,  for  instance,  the  matter  of  the  police  barracks  taken, 
does  that  occur  frequently?  A.  There  are  not  very  many  police 
barracks  left  to  be  taken,  so  it  does  not  happen  very  frequently. 
But  most  of  the  police  barracks  in  Ireland  have  been  wiped  out. 
Practically  all  of  the  smaller  police  barracks  which  were  scattered 
over  the  country  districts,  all  of  those  have  been  either  wiped 
out  by  military  operations  or  evacuated  by  the  British  Government. 

Q.  And  where  do  they  mobilize?  A.  The  police  are  cen- 
tered in  the  large  towns  and  cities.  The  smallest  of  their  barracks 
have  been  burned  out,  and  they  have  fallen  back  on  the  larger 
barracks  and  concentrated,  in  Cork  for  instance,  in  four  large  bar- 
racks, having  evacuated  all  the  small  barracks  which  were  thrown 
around  the  outskirts  of  the  city. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  operation  at  all  that  would  be  comparable 
to  what  we  understand  occurred  in  modern  warfare,  such  as  a  mili- 
tary engagement  in  which  one  side  occupies  a  certain  place  and 
the  other  side  occupies  a  certain  place,  and  anything  like  a  battle 


808 

ensues?  A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not  recall  anything  of  that  nature,  ex- 
cept where  something  like  that  developed  in  the  case  of  an  attack 
on  a  barracks  of  a  large  nature,  but  not  as  such. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  If  I  recall  the  gist  of  certain  pre- 
vious testimony,  it  would  seem  that  the  position  of  the  Irish  Re- 
publicans was  about  this  with  regard  to  military  activities:  that 
they  were  guided  in  those  matters  by  questions  of  expediency;  that 
there  was  a  stale  of  war,  but  it  was  not,  however,  expedient  in  the 
present  conditions  in  Ireland  to  conduct  open  warfare,  because 
obviously  the  Irish  would  be  wiped  out.  Therefore  they  are 
obliged  to  carry  on  their  operations  in  this  way  that  has  been 
indicated,  by  attacks  on  barracks,  by  occasional  ambushes  of  sol- 
diers. That  you  regard  this  as  acting  within  the  lines  of  military 
procedure,  but  you  are  restrained  from  open  warfare  by  prac- 
tical considerations  such  as  would  appeal  to  any  general  at  any 
time  in  war  with  the  English.  But  your  complaint  is  against  what 
happens  in  these  occasional  encounters,  and  the  mistreatment  of 
the  civilian  population,  who  even  under  the  laws  of  war  are  en- 
titled to  decent  treatment  at  the  hands  of  a  foreign  army.  Is  not 
that  a  statement  of  your  position?     A.     That  is  exactly  so. 

REPUBLICAN  ARMY  WEARS  NO  UNIFORM 

Q.  May  I  recur  to  something  that  Mr.  Doyle  asked  a  while 
ago?  I  understand,  of  course,  that  the  wearing  of  the  Irish  Repub- 
lican uniform  was  proscribed  in  Ireland.  My  question  was  rather 
this :  whether  on  the  occasion  of  these  attacks  there  was  any  insignia 
at  all  which  tended  to  differentiate  these  soldiers  from  the  aver- 
age civilian  population?  I  assume  that  there  might  be  reasons 
for  such  differentiation;  that  is,  for  instance,  that  the  attacking 
party  might  know  each  other;  and,  secondly,  in  order  that  they 
might  distinguish  themselves,  if  captured,  from  the  civilian  popu- 
lation, so  as  to  avoid  giving  any  excuse  to  the  British  that  they 
could  not  distinguish,  that  they  were  living  in  a  country  where 
every  man  was  an  enemy.  That  was  the  reason  I  asked  the  question, 
not  because  I  did  not  know  that  the  wearing  of  a  regular  uniform 
had  been  proscribed  by  the  British.  A.  Yes;  of  course,  it  is  very 
difficult  to  see,  I  think,  how  such  a  badge  other  than  uniform  could 
be  worn,  apart  from  the  other  reasons. 

DISCIPLINE  IN  THE  REPUBLICAN  ARMY 
Q.  Major  Newman:  There  is  another  question  that  I  would 
like  to  ;isk.  In  maintaining  discipline  in  the  Republican  army,  do 
you  know  of  any  cases  in  which  members  of  the  army  have  been 
disciplined  for  improper  conduct  toward  prisoners,  or  improper 
acts  of  any  kind?     A.     I  do,  yes. 


809 

Q.  If  so.  how  is  that  clone?  What  were  the  circumstances  of 
it?  A.  The  cases  where  that  arose  are  not  very  numerous.  As  a 
matter  of  fact,  I  only  remember  one  case  in  Cork  where  anything 
of  that  kind  did  occur.  In  the  case  of  any  ordinary,  minor  offense, 
of  course,  the  member  would  simply  be  reprimanded  or  cautioned; 
but  where  the  offense  is  serious,  and  there  was  only  one  such 
case  in  Cork,  the  man  or  men  concerned  are  expelled  from  the 
organization. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  us  the  circumstances  of  this  one  case?  A. 
No,  I  do  not  think  I  could  go  into  that. 

Q.  You  would  prefer  not  to  do  that?  A.  Yes.  It  was  a  case 
where  a  certain  very  small  number,  three  or  four  men,  were  guilty 
of  certain  conduct  that  was  considered  to  be  prejudicial  to  the  in- 
terests of  the  organization  as  such  and  to  the  country,  and  those 
men  were  expelled  from  the  organization.  That  in  itself,  especially 
to  members  of  the  Republican  Army,  was  the  severest  punishment 
which  could  possibly  be  meted  out  to  these  men. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  I  understand  these  quasi-mili- 
tary operations,  or  military  operations,  are  carried  on  under  the 
general  direction  of  properly  constituted  military  authorities,  of- 
ficers and  staff?  They  are  not  carried  out  on  the  initiative  of  local 
groups,  are  they?  A.  There  is  a  certain  matter  of  doubt  as  to 
how  far  it  might  be  advisable  to  discuss  the  military  organization  of 
the  Republican  Army  in  Ireland.  But  I  think  your  point  would  be 
covered  by  a  general  statement  that  both  army  and  military  opera- 
tions may  very  safely  be  taken  as  being  controlled  and  disciplined 
in  Ireland. 

WANTON  MURDER  AND  ATTACKS  ON  WOMEN 
To  return  to  the  everyday  life  question  with  which  I  tried  to 
deal  yesterday,  there  is  one  particular  situation  which  I  would  like 
to  supplement  a  little  today.  That  is  the  attacks  on  women  in 
Ireland.  It  has  been  frequently  said  that  women  at  least  are  held 
immune  and  are  not  treated  in  a  cruel  or  a  brutal  fashion.  There 
are  just  a  few  instances  which  I  would  like  to  read  to  you  as  an 
example  of  what  does  occur.  You  heard  yesterday  in  some  of 
the  depositions  accounts  of  how  women  were  treated  in  casual  raids 
and  in  night  raids.  These  are  some  others  of  a  far  more  serious 
nature. 

There  is  the  first  case  of  all  of  Mrs.  Ellen  Quinn  of  Slagle,  who 
was  murdered  by  constabulary.  Mrs.  Quinn  was  sitting  outside  of 
her  house  with  a  child  in  her  arms  when  a  military  lorry  passed. 
Without  any  reason  that  I  can  see,  or  that  1  can  imagine  that  is 
conceivable,  these  men  fired  and  shot  the  poor  woman  dead.1 


Set'   Commissioner'b  Report,  p.  79. 


810 

Q.  Major  Newman:  When  was  that?  A.  That  has  been  about 
two  months  since,  two  or  three  months  since.  October  15th  Eng- 
lish constabulary  forced  an  entry  into  several  Republican  houses 
at  Clogheen,  County  Tipperary,  and  threatened  to  cut  off  the  hair 
of  three  young  girls.  Two  hours  later  they  returned  and  cropped 
the  hair  of  a  girl  of  18  years. 

Q.     Do  you  know  of  any  reason  for  that?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Other  witnesses  have  mentioned  instances  of  hair  being 
bobbed.  One  of  them,  I  think,  said  it  was  because  of  her  friend- 
ship with  certain  people  that  they  disapproved  of.  Do  you  know 
anything  about  that?     A.     Friendly  with  certain  people? 

Q.  Yes,  presumably  people  that  were  on  their  marked  list.  A. 
I  don't  know  what  the  cause  was  in  this  particular  case. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  I  think  the  claim  made  here  was  that  cer- 
tain Sinn  Fein  leaders  or  soldiers  clipped  hair  off  of  Irish  girls 
who  associated  with  British  soldiers.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  that  was  the  commencement  of  clipping  hair;  and  that 
later  the  British  started  clipping  the  hair  off  of  the  Irish  girls 
who  would  not  accept  their  invitations  to  go  in  their  company. 
A.  It  is  possible  that  such  was  the  case.  I  do  not  not  know  that 
that  is  correct.  I  merely  wanted  to  run  through  these  to  give  an 
idea  of  the  general  treatment  of  girls.  October  17th,  Miss  Glynn 
was  fired  upon  and  wounded  by  English  constabulary  in  Anbally- 
Cummer,  County  Gal  way.  No  attack  was  made  on  the  constabulary. 
It  was  daylight  when  Miss  Glynn  was  wounded.  October  17th: 
after  midnight  English  constabulary  attacked  the  residence  of  Mr. 
P.  J.  McCooey  of  Tubbercurry,  County  Sligo,  who  had  resigned 
from  the  constabulary  after  the  sacking  of  that  town.  Bombs  were 
thrown  into  the  house  and  many  volleys  of  rifle  fire  were  fired 
through  the  windows.  Miss  Brabazen,  sister-in-law  of  Mr.  McCooey, 
was  wounded  in  the  head ;  and  his  little  son  had  his  forehead  gashed 
by  a  bullet. 

October  18.  Mr.  Austin  Brannan,  member  of  the  Clare  County 
Council,  writes  that  when  his  home  was  burned  down  by  English 
constabulary  his  mother  and  sisters  were  not  allowed  to  get  clothes, 
and  had  to  go  out  in  their  bare  feet.  They  were  then  driven 
along  the  road  with  blows  from  rifle  butts  to  see  the  hay  barn  on 
fire. 

October  20.  Miss  Peggy  Brosnan  of  Abbeyfeale,  County  Lim- 
erick, was  fired  upon  and  wounded  by  English  constabulary  in 
broad  day  while  playing  in  the  street  outside  of  her  house.  There 
was  no  attack  on  the  constabulary.1 

October  21.  Miss  Mary  Lordan  of  Coolanagh,  County  Cork, 
and  her  mother   were  taken   from   their  beds   by   a   party   of   Eng- 

1  See  Mr.  Broderick's  testimony. 


811 

lish  constabulary.  They  were  questioned  as  to  the  whereabouts  of 
Mrs.  Lordan's  sons.  They  refused  to  answer.  Miss  Lordan  was 
then  struck  in  the  face  and  knocked  down.  The  mother  and  daugh- 
ter were  then  taken  from  the  house,  which  the  constabulary  then 
sprinkled  with  paraffin   and  set  on  fire. 

October  22.  A  party  of  some  12  English  constabulary  raided 
the  house  of  Miss  Babe  Hogan  of  Miltown-Malbay,  County  Clare, 
who  is  secretary  of  the  Cumann  na  in  Ban  (Women's  National 
League)  of  that  district.  Three  of  them  held  Miss  Hogan  while  a 
fourth  cut  off  her  hair.  The  house  was  surrounded  by  constabulary 
during  this  operation  to  prevent  the  escape  of  their  victim. 

October  23.  The  English  soldiers  forcibly  entered  the  licensed 
premises  of  Mrs.  Whelan,  Galway  City,  after  midnight.  They 
turned  Mrs.  Whelan  into  the  street  in  her  night  attire,  and  then 
rushed  upstairs  and  broke  into  the  bedroom  of  Miss  Keane,  the 
barmaid.  Miss  Keane  escaped  from  them  by  jumping  through  a 
window  seven  feet  high  onto  a  roof. 

October  24.  At  Lixnaw,  County  Kerry,  English  constabulary 
broke  into  the  residence  of  Stephen  Grady  after  midnight.  They 
forcibly  entered  the  bedroom  of  Mrs.  Grady  and  her  daughter. 
They  took  Miss  Grady  from  her  bed  and  dragged  her  out  onto 
the  road  in  her  night  attire.  There  they  forced  her  to  kneel  in  a 
channel  of  water,  and  holding  her  in  this  position,  they  cut  off 
her  hair. 

I  think  all  of  these  eases  are  merely  on  these  lines,  and  I  only 
wanted  to  give  you  an  idea  of  the  treatment  that  is  meted  out  to 
them.     I  do  not  know  that  it  is  necessary  to  read  any  more. 

A  RECORD  OF  BRITISH  OUTRAGES  IN  COUNTY 
CORK 

Yesterday  there  was  a  request  for  later  particulars  of  these  mur- 
ders and  outrages.  I  have  only  a  return  from  Cork  and  district 
running   from   July   to   November. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Your  return  yesterday  went  to  the  1st 
of  August,  1920,  did  it  not?  A.  Yes.  This  will  supplement  it  to 
some  degree  so  far  as  Cork  and  district  is  concerned,  but  not  gen- 
erally.    Commencing  with  August: 

August  16.     John  O'Connel,  Derrygallon,  County  Cork. 

August  17.     Patrick  Clancy,  Derrygallon,  County  Cork. 

August  27.  John  Buckley,  Midleton,  County  Cork.  With  regard 
to  him  there  was  a  deposition  of  his  brother  read  yesterday.  He 
was  the  man,  you  remember,  who  was  shot  while  being  brought  in 
under  arrest  from  Midleton  to  Cork. 

August  28.     George  Walker. 

August  19.     British  troops  and  police  a  few  minutes  before  mid- 


812 

night  opened  fire  in  the  streets  of  Bantry,  County  Cork.  Shots  were 
deliberately  fired  into  the  residences  of  prominent  Republicans  and 
the  windows  of  business  premises  owned  by  them  were  smashed. 

August  22.  Shop  windows  of  well-known  Republican  merchants 
were  smashed  by  police  and  troops. 

August  22.  Residence  of  James  O'Donnell  of  Camp,  County  Cork, 
raided  and  cash  box  stolen  by  the  troops,  containing  sixty  pounds. 

September  1.  Homes  of  prominent  Republicans  at  Skibbereen, 
County  Cork,  were  fired  on  by  the  British  soldiers. 

September  2,  at  Inniscarra,  County  Cork,  British  military  forced 
an  entry  into  a  wayside  tavern,  and  having  consumed  quantities  of 
the  liquor,  set  fire  to  the  premises  and  decamped  with  the  contents 
of  the  till. 

September  3,  at  Youghal,  County  Cork,  British  troops  smashed  all 
the  shop  windows  in  two  streets. 

September  5,  at  Ballyvourney,  County  Cork,  British  troops  mur- 
dered two  young  men  named  Wm.  Hegarty  and  Michael  Lynch. 

July  21.     Leap,  County  Cork,  sacked  by  police. 

With  regard  to  the  incident  at  Ballyvourney,  with  which  I  was 
personally  in  touch,  I  would  like  to  say  that  in  that  particular 
case  there  was  a  new  feature  in  the  way  of  strategy.  Ballyvourney 
is  quite  a  small  village,  about  30  or  35  miles  from  Cork.  On  this 
particular  morning  three  military  wagons  passed  through,  and 
just  outside  of  the  village  one  of  them  was  left  on  the  roadside 
covered  over  with  canvas.  The  other  two  drove  on  in  the  direction 
of  Magroom.  There  was  a  certain  amount  of  curiosity  about  this 
wagon  which  had  been  left  behind,  the  general  assumption  being 
that  it  had  smashed  down  and  been  left  a  derelict;  with  the  re- 
sult that  after  a  short  time  a  number  of  the  children  and  young 
people  of  the  place  approached  it,  and  becoming  bolder  when  they 
saw  no  sign  of  life,  one  of  them  went  to  the  side  of  the  lorry  and 
raised  the  canvas.  Immediately  they  were  fired  upon.  There 
were  soldiers  concealed  inside  under  the  canvas, — obviously  and 
quite  clearly  a  trap.  These  two  young  men,  one  of  whom  I  knew 
well,  were  shot  dead.  The  fortunate  thing  in  that  particular  case 
was  that  there  were  not  many  more,  because  there  was  quite  a 
gathering  of  the  children  and  young  people  of  the  district. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  old  were  the  young  men?  A.  The 
young  man  that  I  knew  was  about  27,  and  the  other  was  about 
the  same  age  or  a  year  or  two  younger. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:    These  were  in  July.     A.     September  5th. 

Q.     I  thought  you  said  July.     A.     No,  September. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Were  any  children  injured  at  the  time'.''  A. 
No,  there  were  no  other  casual  lies  as  I  remember,  I  think,  except 
these  two  who  were  killed.     (Continues  reading)  : 


813 

July  31.     Business  premises  of  Cork  City  sacked  by  troops. 

August  8.  Houses  at  Kildorrery,  County  Cork,  wrecked  and 
looted  by  police. 

August  23.     Glengariff,  County  Cork,  shot  up  by  police. 

August  27.     Queenstown,  County  Cork,  sacked  by  troops. 

October  21.     Miss  Mary  Lorden — well,  I  have  already  read  that. 

October  15.  James  Lehand  taken  from  the  shop  in  which  he 
worked  at  Ballymakeera,  County  Cork,  and  shot  dead  in  the  public 
street  by  Black-and-Tans. 

October  15.  John  Connolly,  arrested  September  30th  by  mili- 
tary in  his  home  at  Bandon,  County  Cork,  and  found  murdered  near 
the  military  barracks  on  the  evening  of  October  15,  1920.  In  this 
particular  case  this  man,  having  been  arrested  and  taken  from  his 
home,  all  efforts  of  his  people  to  get  information  as  to  his  where- 
abouts were  unavailing  until  his  murdered  body  was  discovered,  and 
then  the  authorities  declared  that  he  had  escaped  from  them,  and 
they  did  not  know  anything  further  about  him. 

November  10.  Christopher  Lucy,  shot  dead  in  a  friend's  house 
at  Ballingeary,  County  Cork,  by  auxiliary  police  on  November  10. 
Lucy  was  a  young  man  who  was  a  student  until  some  months  ago 
at  the  University  College,  Cork,  a  splendid  type  of  young  Irish- 
man, about  23  years  of  age,  who  had  left  Cork  and  was  staying  in 
Ballingeary  with  some  relatives  of  his  family.  The  place  was 
surrounded  one  morning  by  these  policemen  and  this  young  fellow 
was  shot  dead. 

November  17.  Patrick  Hannley,  aged  17,  and  Eugene  O'Connell 
shot  dead  in  bed  in  the  presence  of  their  families  by  police  at  Cork 
City  on  the  nights  of  November  17  and  18.  The  same  night  (the 
17th)  James  Coleman  was  shot  dead  in  the  presence  of  his  wife 
at  Cork. 

November  23.  Dennis  O'Connell,  Kildorrery,  County  Cork,  was 
killed. 

MURDERED  IN  PRESENCE  OF  WIFE 

With  regard  to  the  murders  of  Hannley,  O'Connell,  and  Cole- 
man, on  that  particular  night  there  were  two  streets  attacked  in 
the  early  part  of  the  night  and  in  each  of  them  one  man  was 
killed  and  one  wounded.  Raids  were  made  on  particular  houses  in 
these  streets,  and  in  each  street  two  or  three  houses  were  searched. 
Why  the  particular  houses  happened  to  be  searched  I  do  not  know, 
and  why  the  particular  men  who  were  murdered  and  shot  at 
should  have  been  attacked  I  do  not  know;  but  the  fact  remains 
they  were.  In  each  case  one  was  killed  and  the  other  wounded. 
And  on  the  other  side  of  the  city  a  little  later  on  Mr.  Coleman, 
referred  to  here,  was  shot  dead.  In  his  case,  Mr.  Coleman  was  a 
man  somewhere  about  55  years  of  age.     He  was  essentially    and 


814 

purely  a  type  of  business  man.  He  had  never  taken  any  part  in  the 
national  movement  in  Ireland  so  far  as  I  know,  with  the  excep- 
tion of  being  a  member  of  the  Chamber  of  Commerce.  His  only 
public  affiliation  was  as  a  member  of  the  Cork  Industrial  Devel- 
opment Association.  He  was  the  owner  in  Cork  of  a  mineral  water 
factory,  and  he  owned  a  bar.  The  reason  given  and  generally 
believed  for  the  murder  in  his  case  was  that  in  order  to  avoid  trouble 
in  this  bar  of  his,  knowing  the  type  of  men  who  were  in  this 
Black-and-Tan  police  force,  he  had  given  instructions  to  the  assist- 
ant in  the  bar  not  to  serve  them,  his  bar  and  his  house  being  only 
two  or  three  hundred  yards  from  one  of  the  city  barracks.  The 
men  when  refused  accordingly  declared  that  they  would  be  even 
with  Coleman,  and  sure  enough  on  this  particular  night  they  knocked 
at  the  door — the  knocking  took  place  about  three  o'clock  in  the 
morning.  Mr.  Coleman  came  downstairs  and  opened  the  door. 
He  was  asked,  "Are  you  Coleman?"  He  said,  "Yes,"  and  he  was 
immediately  shot;  his  wife,  who  had  followed  him  down  the  stairs, 
being  a  witness  of  the  tragedy.  Some  time  after  his  murder,  a  few 
hours  later,  two  policemen  came  back  to  the  house  and  asked  Mrs. 
Coleman  what  had  occurred,  and  one  of  them  promised  at  her  re- 
quest to  go  for  a  priest.  They  left,  but  the  priest  was  not  sum- 
moned, nor  did  they  come  back  to  the  house  again.  Mr.  Coleman 
left  a  wife  and  two  children,  the  younger  child  being  about  five 
months  old. 

CROWN  FORCES  NOT  DISCIPLINED  FOR  EXCESSES 
Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  has  anything  been  done 
to  discipline  the  soldiers  or  officers  of  the  Black-and-Tan  organiza- 
tion or  the  British  army  for  excesses  committed  by  them,  so  far 
as  you  know?     A.     I  have  never  heard  of  such  a  case. 

Q.  I  recently  read  in  the  paper  that  an  inquest  by  a  coroner's 
jury  or  perhaps  a  court-martial — a  court-martial,  I  believe — was 
held  over  the  death  of  that  much  respected  churchman,  Canon  Mag- 
ner,  ard  that  there  was  a  finding  that  the  officer  at  the  time  was  in- 
sane and  had  been  drinking  excessively.  Other  than  that  case,  do 
you  know  of  even  an  inquiry  being  made?  A.  No,  I  do  not  know 
of  any  other  case. 

Q.  Is  there  apparently  no  provision  for  disciplining  the  men 
who  resort  to  extreme  conduct  in  raids  and  in  the  creation  of  those 
offenses?  A.  No,  sir,  none  that  I  know  of,  and  I  do  not  believe 
there  is. 

SUMMARY  OF  ONE  MONTH'S  OUTRAGES  AND 
ARRESTS 

I  referred  yesterday  to  the  monthly  summary  which  we  make  in 
Cork  for  our  own  purposes,  so  as  to  keep  an  account  of  the  ordinary 


815 

events;  and  at  the  risk  of  seeming  somewhat  unduly  prolix,  I  think 
it  would  be  well  to  read  one  of  them  as  a  sample.  Of  course  this  is 
in,  and  I  do  not  care  to  be  repeating;  so  much  the  same  class  of 
cases,  but  it  is  essential,  I  think,  that  it  be  understood  that  from  the 
start  I  have  sought  to  deal  with  and  to  convey  not  so  much  the  par- 
ticular cases  that  are  being  dealt  with,  but  to  convey  the  background 
which  must  constitute  the  real  history  of  the  everyday  life  of  the 
people,  and  the  atmosphere  in  which  the  people  live  as  a  result  of 
these  outrages,  rather  than  the  particular  outrages  themselves. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  record  is  this  taken  from?  A.  This 
is  simply  gathered,  sir,  as  a  record  from  the  daily  press  of  the  dif- 
ferent outrages  and  arrests. 

Q.  Gathered  by  the  Republican  organization?  A.  Gathered 
by  the  Republican  organization  for  office  purposes.  Perhaps  it 
would  be  sufficient  if  I  hand  one  of  them  in. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  have  you  it  recapitulated? 
Have  you  the  total  number  of  murders  and  outrages  set  forth  at  the 
end  of  the  list?  A.  No,  sir.  Perhaps  it  would  be  quite  sufficient 
if  I  handed  it  in. 

(The  Report  above  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 

Preliminary  report,  estimated  to  date,  6th  December,  1920,  of  out- 
rages committed  by  various  English  Crown  forces  in  Cork  City  and 
County  in  the  month  of   November,   1920: 

280  arrests ;  upwards  of  50  attempted  arrests ;  4  publicly  placarded 
threats  to  the  citizens  of  Cork;  hundreds  of  general  outrages;  15 
trains  held  up;  upwards  of  200  curfew  arrests,  of  which  74  were 
made  the  night  William  Mulcahy  was  shot  at  North  Gate  Bridge, 
Cork,  the  majority  of  which  were  made  before  10  P.  M.,  when  curfew 
begins;  4  Sinn  Fein  Cumanns  (clubs)  burned  to  the  ground;  12  large 
business  houses  burned  to  the  ground ;  many  attempts  made  to  fire 
others,  including  the  City  Hall,  Cork,  on  two  occasions;  amount  of 
damage  done  by  fire  estimated  at  £1,000,000;  seven  men  shot  dead; 
upwards  of  12  men  dangerously  wounded  by  shots ;  attempted  assassi- 
nation of  upwards  of  10  men;  upwards  of  500  houses  of  private  citi- 
zens   forcibly    entered    and    searched ;    much    indiscriminate    shooting. 

The  majority  of  these  outrages  were  committed  during  curfew 
hours,  namely,  from  10  P.  M.  to  3  A.  M.,  and  nearly  all  the  remainder 
immediately  before  or  after. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  Cork  typical  of  Ireland  in  this 
matter,  or  has  it  been  peculiarly  the  scene  of  outrages?  A.  To 
some  extent  I  think  Cork  has  been  rather  worse.  Of  course,  that 
state  of  affairs  is  generally  applicable  to  Ireland;  but  in  Cork 
things  are  more  intensified;  but  the  general  state  of  affairs,  so  far 
as  the  system  of  arresting  and  raiding  and  outrages  is  concerned, 
applies  to  the  country  as  a  whole. 

As  to  these  depositions,  gentlemen,  I  would  like  to  say  that  they 
were  not  brought  by  me  after  being  picked  especially  or  definitely 
with  any  particular  sequence.  They  were  the  last  bundle  which 
happened  to  be  most  easily  and  most  readily  available  to  me  at  a 
time  when  I  had  not  a  great  amount  of  time  to  hunt  them  up.  and 


816 

with  very  little  notice  of  my  leaving  Cork.  Otherwise,  of  course,  it 
would  have  been  possible  to  have  considerably  more,  and  to  have 
had  the  information  tabulated  and  in  better  order.  However,  I 
think  even  as  they  are,  picked  at  random,  they  convey,  I  hope,  a 
pretty  complete  picture  of  conditions  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  It  seems  to  us  a  very  full  and  a  very  valu- 
able account,  and  I  am  grateful  for  it.    A.     I  thank  you. 

BEGINNING  OF  THE  BURNING  OF  CORK 

On  yesterday  I  referred  slightly  to  the  commencement  of  the 
burning  of  Cork.  For  some  time,  for  a  period  of  two  or  three 
months,  fires  had  been  taking  place  pretty  frequently  at  night  in 
Cork,  taking  place  in  isolated  shops,  particular  shops  being  burned 
out  completely  in  some  cases,  efforts  being  made  in  other  cases  to 
burn  them  out,  unsuccessfully,  but  accompanied  by  looting.  That 
continued  until  something  like  35  had  taken  place  or  had  been 
started  in  Ireland.  Before  the  large  fire  took  place  in  Cork,  damage 
had  been  clone  to  the  extent,  it  is  computed,  of  over  a  million 
pounds.  In  some  cases  the  attempts  to  burn  a  particular  house  or 
shop  or  premises  were  repeated  a  number  of  times.  One  of  the 
first  type  of  premises  to  be  attacked  were  the  Republican  premises  in 
the  different  portions  of  the  city,  the  Republican  clubs.  These  were 
tackled  individually  until  every  Republican  club  in  Cork,  I  think, — 
practically  every  Republican  club  in  Cork,  had  been  attacked  at 
least  once,  and  in  some  cases  many  times.  With  the  clubs,  of  course, 
was  the  City  Hall.  The  City  Hall  also  was  attacked  and  an  effort 
made  to  destroy  it  about  four  or  five  times  before  the  recent  whole- 
sale destruction. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  openly  are  those  Republican  clubs 
run,  of  which  you  speak?     A.     0,  quite  openly. 

Q.  Are  they  social  clubs  that  are  regarded  as  Republican  clubs 
on  account  of  the  character  of  the  membership?  A.  No,  sir,  they 
are  the  Sinn  Fein  clubs,  the  Sinn  Fein  organization,  the  political 
organization.  There  is,  of  course,  a  social  side  attached  to  them, 
but  they  are  Republican  institutions. 

CLUB  DESTROYED  AND  FAMILY  TERRORIZED 

Q.  Publicly  announced  as  such?  A.  Yes,  sir.  In  the  case  of 
one  of  those  clubs,  the  Thomas  Ashe  Sinn  Fein  Club,  which  is  one 
of  the  largest  in  Cork,  and  which  was  subsequently  burned  out 
completely, — as  an  example  of  one  of  the  raids  which  took  place 
prior  to  the  actual  burning,  this  deposition  which  we  have  of  the 
caretaker,  Mrs.  Honan,  will  give  you  an  idea.      (Reading)  : 


817 

Affidavit  of  Mrs.  Honan 
Sivorn    Statement    of   Mrs.    Honan,    Caretaker.    Thomas    Ashe   Sinn 
Fein  Club,  Father  Matthew  Quay.  Concerning  Raid  on  the  Prem- 
ises by  Police  on  March   11,  1920: 

"I  am  caretaker  of  No.  IS  Father  Matthew  Quay  for  the 
Thomas  Ashe  Sinn  Fein  Club,  Cork.  Nobody  else  lives  in  the 
house  but  myself  and  family.  I  was  asleep  in  bed  on  the  11th, 
the  night  of  11th  of  March,  1920,  and  was  awakened  by  loud  bang- 
ing and  noise  at  the  front  door  at  1:15  A.  M.  I  shouted,  'Who  is 
there?'  and  the  answer  came,  'Police.  Open  quickly  or  we  will 
bust  the  door.'  I  jumped  up,  and  putting  a  cloak  about  me,  went 
and  opened  the  door.  About  12  men  rushed  in,  brandishing  re- 
volvers; some  of  them  were  dressed  in  ordinary  R.  I.  C.  uni- 
form; others  wore  khaki  uniforms  with  R.  I.  C.  caps  and  belts. 
One  of  these  latter,  presumably  the  leader,  as  I  could  afterwards 
see,  caught  me  by  the  cloak  near  the  throat.  He  pointed  the 
revolver  to  my  face  and  marched  me  back  into  the  room  where 
my  children  and  myself  slept.  There  were  six  children  in  bed 
there,  aged  from  12  to  2  years.  The  remainder  of  the  raiders 
followed,  and  revolvers  were  pointed  at  the  children.  The  chil- 
dren got  very  frightened.  I  told  them  there  was  no  one  in  the 
house  but  myself  and  the  children.  They  broke  a  large  lamp, 
bedroom  mirror,  and   chair. 

"I  then  thought  of  my  son,  aged  14,  who  was  asleep  in  the 
kitchen,  and  said,  'My  little  boy  is  in  the  kitchen,  but  don't  kill 
him,  as  he  is  only  a  child.'  One  of  them  said,  'Where  is  he?  Get 
me  a  candle  until  I  see  him!'  I  said  I  had  no  candle,  but  lit  the 
gas  in  the  kitchen,  and  three  of  them  followed  me  in.  When 
they  saw  he  was  only  a  child,  they  did  not  interfere  with  him,  but 
started  smashing  ware  and  everything  all  round  them.  They 
broke  three  pictures,  and  as  this  was  my  property,  I  protested 
against  their  action. 

"When  they  had  smashed  everything  there,  I  heard  a  voice 
shouting  from  above,  'There  is  enough  down  there;  come  upstairs.' 
One  of  the  three  went  up  to  the  party  upstairs.  The  other  two 
rushed  me  into  the  bedroom  again,  one  remaining  inside  the  door 
with  a  revolver  in  his  hand.  I  heard  the  others  smashing  every- 
thing upstairs.  The  row  was  terrific  and  my  children  were 
screaming.  It  frightened  me  so  much  that  I  asked  the  man  with 
the  revolver  to  have  mercy  on  me  and  not  to  kill  myself  and  my 
children.  He  said,  'I  would  have  no  mercy  on  anyone  I  would 
get  here.'     He  was  a  Black-and-Tan. 

"The  others  remained  upstairs  about  40  minutes,  when  they 
came  down  again,  and  about  2  o'clock  they  went  out  on  the  quay. 
The  last  man  had  a  night  helmet  on.  While  they  were  leaving 
I  ran  to  the  door  and  called  them  a  pack  of  cowards.  Two  of 
them  ran  back  with  rifles  and  told  me  if  I  didn't  get  in  they  would 
blow  my  brains  out.  After  the  remainder  of  the  party  left,  those 
two  remained  behind  for  about  20  minutes. 

"When  I  examined  the  premises  I  found  the  gas  pipe  cut  on 
the  second  floor  in  several  places.  The  fittings  were  pulled  down 
from  the  ceiling.  Every  bit  of  the  furniture,  tables,  chairs,  forms, 
etc.,  were  smashed ;  every  window,  3  marble  fireplaces,  door 
panels,  about  20  pictures,  a  beautiful  oil  painting  five  feet  square 
or  so,  framed,  were  all  broken  beyond  restoration.  A  mattress 
was  cut  up.  Writing  materials,  etc.,  were  all  scattered  and  torn. 
Two  pictures  alone  escaped  in  the  upstairs  rooms. 

"This  was  the  sixth  raid  by  police  on  the  premises,  military 
accompanying  them  on  some  occasions,  when  flooring  boards  were 
torn    up,    walls    smashed,    etc.      Acting   under    instructions,    I    placed 


818 

the  matter  of  compensation  in  the  hands  of  Dr.  Dunlea,  solicitor, 
South  Mall,  the  following  day.  Two  days  after,  two  R.  I.  C.  ser- 
geants from  Union  Quay  Barracks  came  and  made  an  inventory 
of  the  damage  done.  They  gave  their  names  as  Sergeants  Mc- 
Loughlin  and  Reddin.  The  latter  did  all  the  talking,  and  asked 
me  what  class  of  men  raided  the  place.  I  said,  'Police,  some  of 
whom  wore  khaki  uniforms.'  He  asked  me  could  I  identify  any 
of  them,  and  I  said,  T  could  not,  as  they  cut  off  the  gas;  and 
the  two  local  police  whom  I  could  otherwise  identify  kept  their 
night  helmets  down  over  their  eyes.'  His  attitude  was  one  of 
seeming  delight  all  the  time.     They  then  left." 

The  Witness:  That  was  the  sixth  raid  on  these  premises,  and  it 
has  since,  as  I  have  told  you,  been  completely  destroyed. 

ANONYMOUS  WARNINGS  PRECEDE  DESTRUCTION 
OF  PROPERTY 

In  the  case  of  another  club  in  Cork,  on  North  Main  Street,  the 
club  in  that  particular  case  consisted  of  two  rooms,  and  on  one  floor 
were  the  offices  and  on  another  floor  was  a  shop.  The  proprietor 
of  the  shop  underneath  was  warned  before  the  place  was  attacked; 
warned  that  it  was  unwise  to  remain  on  those  premises.  Mr.  Mc- 
Gurk,  who  occupied  the  premises,  states: 

Affidavit  of  John  McGurk 

"I  reside  at  No.  6  and  7  Lavitt's  Quay,  Cork.  My  business  as 
retailer  of  English  Government  Surplus  Stocks  at  54  North  Main 
Street,  Cork,  is  managed  for  me  by  Mr.  Geoghah.  I  bought  out 
the  whole  house  about  12  months  ago.  A  tenant  was  then  living 
in  the  top  rooms,  and  she  had  sublet  rooms  over  my  business 
premises  to  a  Sinn  Fein  Club.  The  rooms  are  still  occupied  by 
the  same  people,  although  I  often  requested  them  to  leave. 

"On  Thursday  evening,  21st  October,  an  R.  I.  C.  policeman, 
whose  name  I  can  give,  but  for  obvious  reasons  wish  to  withhold, 
came  to  me.  He  asked  me  if  the  place  where  the  Sinn  Fein  Club 
was  belonged  to  me.  I  said,  'Yes.'  He  said,  'If  you  have  any  val- 
uable goods  there  it  would  be  better  to  shift  them.  Ex-soldiers 
who  have  rows  with  their  wives  proclaim  aloud  that  their  wives 
go  up  to  that  Sinn  Fein  Club  and  that  they  are  afterwards  ar- 
rested and  brought  there.  The  authorities  have  heard  of  all 
this.'  I  thanked  him.  On  Saturday,  23d  October,  I  received  the 
following  typewritten  notice,  printed  on  an  ordinary  buff  envelope: 
'WARNING 

"  'It  is  extremely  dangerous  to  be  living  in  your  premises  at 
present.'  The  warning  was  contained  in  a  similar  buff  envelope,  and 
came  through  the  post.  The  address  was  typewritten  and  ran 
thus:  'John  McGurk,  Esq.,  54  North  Main  Street,  Cork.'  The  post- 
mark was  stamped  'Cork,  2:15  A.  M.,  23d  October,  1920.' 

"The  amount  of  damage  sustained  by  me  by  reason  of  the  looting 
and  breaking  up  of  the  premises  was  approximately  £500.  If  I 
hadn't  received  warning  from  some  kind  source  and  shifted  val- 
uable goods,  my  loss  would  be  about  £2,000.  I  had  to  put  some 
tilings  to  sale,  and  lost  a  good  deal  of  money.  The  damage  to 
the  house  would  cost  about  £200  to  repair." 

The  Witness:  On  that  occasion  the  place  had  been  broken  into, 
and    subsequently   the    place    was    burned    down.      When    that    was 


819 

burned  clown,  a  premises  next  door,  a  large  wine  store,  which  be- 
longed to  Mr.  O'Connell,  was  also  burned  down,  the  two  houses 
being  destroyed.  Mr.  O'Connell  had  also  received  warning,  as  will 
appear  from  the  following,  which  is  the  original  warning  that  he 
received : 

"Mr.  O'Connell,  Publican,  53  North  Main  Street,  Cork. 

"WARNING 

"It  is  extremely  dangerous  to  be  living  on  your  premises  at 
present." 

You  will  note  there  is  no  signature. 

EARLY  ATTEMPTS  TO  BURN  CITY  HALL 

The  City  Hall  was  also  attacked  five  or  six  times  before  it  was  de- 
stroyed. The  finishing  fire  was  expected  nightly,  so  much  so  that 
we  had  made  special  arrangements  with  the  fire  brigade  depart- 
ment that  firemen  were  on  duty  every  night,  and  lines  of  hose  were 
laid  on  every  night.  This  is  the  testimony  of  Captain  Hutson,  who 
was  captain  in  charge  of  the  Cork  City  Fire  Brigade,  with  regard 
to  one  of  the  previous  attempts  to  destroy  the  City  Hall.  On  that 
occasion  the  attempt  was  a  failure,  only  one  room  being  com- 
pletely destroyed,  and  one  or  two  other  rooms  damaged  on  the 
ground  floor.  But  on  that  occasion  also  portions  of  bombs  were 
discovered  on  the  premises.      (Reading): 

Affidavit  of  Captain  Hutson 

"At  4:05  A.  M.  Saturday,  9th  October,  I  received  a  call  at 
Sullivan's  Quay  fire  station  that  the  City  Hall  was  on  fire.  The 
fire  brigade  proceeded  immediately  and  found  the  waterworks 
office  well  alight,  and  the  windows  burned  out.  For  the  preceding 
eight  days  I  had  arranged  protection  there.  A  fireman  remained 
on  duty  at  the  City  Hall,  and  he  laid  down  hose  each  night,  and 
kept  chemical  engines  in  readiness  for  any  outbreak.  We  confined 
the  fire  to  the  waterworks  office,  and  played  a  strong  pressure 
of  water  on  the  ceiling,  where  the  plaster  had  been  blown  away  by 
the  explosion  of  bombs  and  the  lath  work  was  in  danger  of  fire. 
I  saw  from  the  rapid  manner  in  which  the  flames  spread  over 
the  whole  floor  and  out  through  the  windows  and  up  towards 
the  ceiling  that  something  more  inflammable  than  the  ordinary 
.  contents  of  an  office  building  was  alight.  Such  could  only  be 
petrol,  paraffin,  benzine,  or  such  like.  The  outbreak  was  checked 
in  half  an  hour. 

"When  I  had  done  with  the  front  of  the  building,  I  was  ap- 
proached by  a  man  in  civilian  attire,  with  a  light  trench  coat.  He 
asked  me  if  the  fire  were  extinguished,  and  1  replied,  'Yes.'  Com- 
ing down  from  the  City  Engineer's  office  about  35  or  41)  minutes 
later,  I  went  into  the  telephone  office  to  ring  up  the  City  En- 
gineer. The  same  civilian,  accompanied  by  a  head-consitable,  R. 
1.  C,  came  into  the  office  to  me.  I  asked  what  they  wanted,  and 
told  them  that  if  they  waited  awhile,  I  Would  show  them  the  ef- 
fects of  the  fire.  This  I  afterwards  did  when  they  passed  some 
ordinary  comments  as  to  the  damage  effected. 


320 

"I  found  a  piece  of  a  bomb  on  the  pavement  outside  the  City 
I  bill  on  the  Albert  Quay  side.  I  afterwards  gave  it  to  the  Deputy 
Lord  Mayor,  Domhnaill  Og  O'Ceallachain,  T.  C.  I  then  made 
preparations  for  departure,  after  placing  two  firemen  with  the 
necessary  appliances  in  the  building  for  its  further  safety.  My 
inspection  of  the  building  showed  me  that  some  inflammable  ma- 
terial must  have  been  poured  into  the  waterworks  office  (which 
is  at  the  left-hand  corner  of  the  building,  on  the  ground  floor), 
from  the  grounds  adjoining  the  southwestern  side.  The  hoardings 
on  the  high  buildings  overloking  Albert  Quay  would  prevent 
this  being  done  from  that  direction.  Bombs  thrown  in  from  Al- 
bert Quay  through  the  windows,  over  the  hoardings,  sufficed  to 
set    the    place    alight. 

''The  waterworks  office  itself  contained  a  door  on  the  south- 
eastern side  of  the  room  leading  to  a  passage  running  northeast 
and  southeast,  which  met  the  force  of  a  bomb  or  bombs,  but  ow- 
ing to  the  fact  that  it  opens  inwards,  was  not  blown  into  the 
passage.  It  was  knocked  off  the  hinges  and  fell  into  the  room. 
A  powerful  dividing  wall  kept  the  flames  from  the  adjoining  room, 
which  is  the  Public  Health  Office.  Thus  no  flames  were  seen  here 
by  the  attackers,  and  a  bomb  thrown  in  through  a  window  from 
Albert  Quay  caused  no  fire  in  the  absence  of  inflammable  sub- 
stance. This  bomb  lodged  on  a  desk,  in  the  far  corner  of  the 
room  adjoining  the  waterworks  office,  the  walls  being  marked  by 
the  splinters. 

"Thus  our  work  was  mainly  confined  to  the  one  room,  and  the 
preventing  of  the  fire  spreading  to  the  City  Engineer's  Office 
overhead,  which  suffered  comparatively  little   damage." 

HOW  THE  FIRE  BEGAN 
The  Witness:    On  that  night  Timothy  Ring  was  night  watchman  in 
the  City  Hall,  and  he  deposes  as  follows: 

Deposition  of  Timothy  Ring 

"At  3:45  A.  M.  on  Saturday,  9th  October,  I  heard  a  fusilade  of 
shots  outside  the  City  Hall.  I  telephoned  Sullivan's  Quay  Fire 
Station,  'Firing  on  City  Hall.'  The  reply  came,  'All  right,  Tim!' 
About  ten  minutes  afterwards  a  fusilade  of  shots  again  com- 
menced, during  which  I  heard  two  loud  explosions.  On  seeing 
fire  in  the  direction  of  the  waterworks  department,  I  phoned  the 
fire  station,  'City  Hall  on  fire.'  The  fire  brigade  were  promptly 
on  the  scene.  About  4:20  A.  M.  I  opened  the  front  door  facing 
Albert  Quay  for  Captain  Hutson's  convenience.  A  man  in  civilian 
clothes,  in  tweed  cap  and  light  trench  coat,  immediately  came  to 
me  from  opposite  the  City  Hall,  where  a  number  of  police  were 
sitting  on  the  railings.  He  was  accompanied  by  two  policemen 
with  carbines  at  the  ready.  He  said,  'Are  you  the  porter?'  .  I 
said,  'Yes.'  Captain  Hutson  came  on  the  scene,  and  he  turned 
to  speak  to  him.  About  half  an  hour  afterwards  the  same  civilian, 
with  a  head-constable  R.  I.  C,  went  into  the  telephone  office  to 
Captain  Hutson.  A  short  time  afterwards  I  saw  them  depart.  I 
closed  all  front  doors  after  the  departure  of  the  fire  brigade,  and 
stayed   on   duty   until   relieved   at   7   A.    M." 


821 
FIREMEN   HALTED   BY  ARMED   POLICE 


The    Witness: 

Timol 

thy    King, 

Jr.,    was    also    a 

memb( 

sr   of    Lhe 

fire  brigade  thai  i 

light, 

at  Grattai 

i  Street  Station,  a 

n. 1  he  . 

leposes  as 

follows: 

Deposition  of  Timothy  Ring,  Jr. 

"I  am  a  fireman  at  Grattan  Street  fire  station,  Cork.  At  4:15 
A.  M.  I  received  a  fire  call  from  Sullivan's  Quay  Station  to  pro- 
ceed to  the  City  Hall,  that  it  was  on  fire.  I  arrived  in  the  vicinity 
of  the  burning  within  four  or  five  minutes,  with  the  three  men 
under  my  charge.  At  the  corner  of  Parnell  Bridge  and  Albert 
Quay  we  were  halted  by  a  man  with  a  revolver,  dressed  in  civilian 
attire,  with  cap  and  light  duster  coat.  He  was  accompanied  by 
twelve  or  fourteen  men  in  R.  I.  C.  uniform  and  caps,  one  of 
whom  covered  us  with  a  rifle.  I  shouted  out  'firemen.'  We  were 
allowed  to  pass.     1  afterwards  saw  this  man  in  the  City  Hall." 

POLICE  BOAST  THEY  WILL  BURN  HALL 

The  Witness:  The  men  referred  to  there,  who  during  that  par- 
ticular attempt  remained  in  the  vicinity  of  the  City  Hall  and  Parnell 
Bridge,  which  was  just  adjoining  it,  were  quite  obviously  the  men 
who  had  sought  to  burn  the  City  Hall.  On  one  of  these  occasions, 
when  the  fire  had  taken  place,  one  of  the  party  actually  went  into 
the  City  Hall  and  discussed  the  fire  with  some  of  the  firemen  or 
porters  on  duty,  and  on  this  particular  occasion  said,  "Well,  it  has 
been  a  failure  again  this  time,  but  the  next  time  we  will  finish  it." 

Patrick  O'Connell  was  a  lamp  lighter  in  the  employment  of  the 
Corporation.     He  deposes  as  follows: 

Deposition  of  Patrick  O'Connell 

"I  was  inspecting  the  electric  lamps  some  time  after  9  P.  M. 
on  Sunday,  18th  July,  1920,  at  Brian  Boru  Bridge,  when  I  first 
heard  firing  of  rifle  shots  in  the  direction  of  MacCurtain  Street, 
and  I  saw  people  running  in  all  directions.  I  returned  to  the 
Public  Lighting  Department,  City  Hall.  There  were  some 
strangers  there,  including  one  woman.  They  had  come  in  there 
for  safety.  1  then  heard  firing  in  Parnell  Place,  coming  closer 
all  the  time.  I  could  hear  those  who  were  firing  using  filthy  lan- 
guage,   calling,    'Put    up    your    hands,    you   Irish    swine,    etc' 

At  that  time  I  was  standing  at  the  outer  private  door  facing- 
Albert  quay;  when  one  lamp  lighter  was  just  coming  in  the  door, 
a  volley  went  off.  I  closed  out  the  door.  A  few  minutes  after- 
wards, as  I  was  expecting  two  lamp  lighters,  I  opened  the  door 
again.  Two  men  who  were  employed  in  the  Public  Baths,  to  the 
left  of  the  City  Hall,  were  passing,  and  1  pulled  them  in  for 
safety.  We  closed  the  door  and  went  into  the  watchman's  quar- 
ters and  extinguished  the  gas  there.  Just  then  1  saw  a  number 
of  policemen  at  the  door,  over  the  railing.  One  of  them  pointed 
a  rifle  at  me,  using  filthy  language,  whilst  calling  on  me  to  open 
the  door.  The  watchman,  Tim  Ring,  opened  the  door,  and  they 
rushed  in.  I  lit  the  light.  There  were  then  seven  employes,  one 
strange  man,  and  one  strange  woman  present.  When,  in  answer 
to  their  questions  we  told  them  we  were   lamp  lighters,  they  said, 


822 

'Ye  are  the fellows  we  want.'    They  then  presented  their  rifles 

to  us  and  told  us  to  put  our  hands  up.  They  lined  us  up  against 
the  wall  and  kept  us  in  that  position  for  20  minutes,  with  our 
hands  over  our  heads  all  the  time.  The  woman  continually  be- 
seeched  them  through  the  Sacred  Heart  to  have  mercy  on  us, 
and  not  shoot  us  dead.  They  replied,  'What  mercy  had  ye  on  us? 
Ye  had  none,  and  we'll  show  ye  no  mercy  now.  Ye  had  yere 
turn;  it  is  our  turn  now.'  They  were  digging  some  of  us  on  the 
breast  with  the  muzzle  of  revolvers,  threatening  to  shoot  us.  The 
woman  was  in  a  terrible  state  of  prostration.  I  saw  one  of  them 
take  two  packets  of  cigarettes  out  of  one  of  the  men's  pockets 
and  put  them  into  his  own.  There  were  four  of  these  police  in 
the  room,  and  about  three  outside,  all  dressed  in  policemen's 
clothes,  with  the  exception  of  one  dressed  in  civilian  clothes,  cap- 
less  and  hatless.    They  all  had  strange  English  accents. 

"After  some  20  minutes  they  were  about  to  leave  when   some 

of   them   made   the   remark,    'We'll   pay   this   ■ Sinn   Fein   Hall 

another  visit.'  When  outside  in  the  passage  one  of  them  fired 
a  revolver  bullet  through  the  glass  window  in  the  watchman's 
room,  grazing  the  top  of  my  head.  The  bullet  lodged  in  the  corner 
between  the  wall  and  the  ceiling,  and  the  mark  is  there  yet.  The 
bullet  was  kept.  When  outside  on  the  quay,  we  could  hear  them 
smashing  the  windows  of  the  City  Hall.  They  all  seemed  to  be 
under  the  influence  of  drink. 

"The  stranger  and  the  woman  remained  in  the  watchman's  rest 
for  safetv  until  the  following  morning,  as  I  saw  them  there  at 
5   A.   M." 

The  Witness:  On  that  occasion  all  the  windows  in  the  City  Hall 
were  smashed. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Was  anything  more  ever  found  out 
about  this  strange  man  and  the  woman,  and  who  they  were?  A. 
No,  sir.     Presumably  they  were  merely  passers-by. 

Q.     Irish?     A.     Yes.     And  who  went  in  for  protection. 

NINETY  TOWNS  RAVAGED  IN  ONE  YEAR  SUR- 
PASSES GERMAN  RECORD  IN  BELGIUM 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  can  we  got  on  now 
to  your  experiences  in  connection  with  the  fire,  and  the  dramatic 
exit  that  you  made?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Before  doing  that  I  wish  to  put 
in  a  list  of  the  towns  that  have  been  shot  up  before  Cork  during  the 
last  12  months. 

Q.     Commissioner  Thomas:    What  is  the  total?     A.     Ninety. 

Q.     Major  Newman:    That  is  in  all  of  reland?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle;  Just  a  moment  about  that  last  list.  That  is  a 
list  showing  that  90-odd  towns  in  Ireland  have  been  shot  up  and 
either  destroyed  or  partly  destroyed  by  the  British  forces  within 
what  period  of  time?     A.     Within  twelve  months. 

Q.  How  does  that  compare  with  the  number  of  towns  shot  up  and 
partially  destroyed  or  destroyed  in  Belgium?  Do  you  know?  Have 
you  made  any  comparison?  A.  No,  except  that  from  the  general 
information  I  have  it  would  be  far  in  excess. 


823 

Q.  According  to  your  recollection  of  the  public  records,  no 
such  list  as  that  has  been  prepared  which  shows  that  ninety  towns 
in  Belgium  have  been  destroyed  by  the  Germans  during  the  occu- 
pation of  that  country?     A.     That  is  true. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  I  regret  that  we  have  not  a  map  by 
which  we  could  locate  these  towns.  Would  you  say  that  these  90 
towns  and  villages  are  fairly  distributed  over  the  whole  of  Ireland? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  With  the  exception  of  the  northwest?  A. 
Yes,  there  were  some  burned  in  the  northeast.  It  would  cover  the 
whole  country.  The  following  is  a  detailed  list  of  the  90  towns 
ravished  by  British  troops  or  police  during  the  last  12  months: 

1919 

September  9 — Fermoy,   County   Cork,  sacked   by  troops. 
November  6 — Kinsale,  County  Cork,  partially  sacked  by  troops. 
November   12 — Cork  City,  partially  sacked  by  troops. 

1920 

January  22 — Thurles,  County  Tipperary,  sacked   by  troops, 

February  27 — Three  houses   in   Dublin  wrecked  by   troops. 

March  1 — Thurles,  County  Tipperary,  partially  wrecked  by  troops. 

March  7 — Several  houses  in  Thurles,  County  Tipperary,  wrecked  by  troops. 

March   12— Many  houses  in   Cork   City  wrecked  by  police. 

March  22— Many  shop  windows  in  Dublin  wrecked  by  troops. 

April   17 — Bouladuff,  County  Tipperary,  shot  Up  by  police. 

April  26 — Kilcommon,   County  Tipperary,  partially  wrecked  by  police. 

April  27 — Many  houses  in   Limerick  City  wrecked  by  troops. 

May   1 — Limerick   City   shot   up   by   police. 

May   13 — Houses  at  Thurles,  County  Tipperary,  fired  and  bombed  by 

police. 
May  15 — Houses  at   Bantry,   County   Cork,  wrecked   by  police. 
May  18 — Limerick  City  shot  up  by  police 

May    19 — Kilcommon,    County    Tipperary,    shot    up    by    police. 
May   28 — Kilmallock,    County    Limerick,    sacked    by    police. 
June  5 — Midleton,  County  Cork,  shot  up  by  police. 
June  12 — Limerick  City  again  shot  up  by  police. 
June   23 — Bantry,    County   Cork,   partially   sacked   by   police. 
June  23 — Houses  in  Limerick  City  wrecked  by  police. 
June  25 — Many  houses  at  Bantry,  County  Cork,  wrecked  and  bred  by 

police. 
June   27 — Fermoy,   County   Cork,   wrecked   by   troops. 
June  27 — Lismore,   County  Waterford,   sacked   by  troops. 
June  27 — Many  houses  at  Newcastle-West,  County  Limerick,   wrecked 

and  fired  by  police. 
June  28 — Limerick  City  partially  sacked  by  police. 
June  28 — Kilcommon,  County  Tipperary,  shot  up  by  police. 
July    1 — Newspaper    offices    at    Limerick    City    wrecked    and    fired    by 

police. 
July  3 — Union   Hall,   County   Cork,   shot  up   by  police. 
July  5 — Midleton,  County  Cork,   shot  up  by  troops. 
July    6 — Residence    at    Ballylanders,    County    Limerick,     bombed     and 

wrecked  by  police. 
Tuly  15 — Tralee,   County  Kerry,  partially  sacked  by  police. 
July    16 — Houses   at   Arklow,   County   Wicklow,   bombed   and    wrecked 

by  police. 


824 

July   16 — Calbally,   County   Limerick,  shot  up  by  police. 

July  16 — Ballagh,  County  Roscommon,  partially  sacked  by  police. 

July  17-19 — Cork  City  shot  up  by  police. 

July   19 — Emly,   County   Limerick,   shot  up   by   police.      Creamery   and 

houses  wrecked. 
July   20 — Tuam,    County    Galway,    sacked    by    police. 
July  20 — Houses  at  Limerick  City  wrecked  and  burned  by   police. 
July  20 — National   Foresters'   Hall  at   Enniscarthy,    County  Wexford, 

wrecked  by  police. 
July  21 — Houses  at  Limerick  City  bombed  and  wrecked  by  police. 
July  22 — Ballina,  County  Mayo,  shot  up  by  police. 
July  22 — Leap,   County   Cork,   sacked  by  police. 
July  23 — Caltra,  County  Galway,  partially  sacked  by  police. 
July  30 — Upperchurch,   County  Tipperary,   partially   sacked   by  police. 
July  31 — Tipperary    town   partially   sacked   by   troops. 
July  31 — Business  premises  at  Cork  City  sacked  by  troops. 
August   2 — Many   houses   at   Castlerea,    County   Roscommon,    partially 

wrecked  by  police. 
August  5 — Doon,   County  Limerick,   sacked   by   troops. 
August  6 — Rosegreen,  County  Tipperary,  shot  up  by  police. 
August   7 — Tralee,    County   Kerry,    shot    up    by   police. 
August  8: — Houses   at   Kildorrery,    County   Cork,   wrecked  and   looted 

by   police. 
August  12 — Swords,   County   Cork,  shot  up  by  troops. 
August   13 — Limerick  City  shot  up  by  police. 

August  14 — Tralee,  County  Kerry,  shot  up  by  troops  and  police. 
August   15 — Limerick  City  partially  wrecked  by  police. 
.August  16 — Templemore,  County  Tipperary,  partially  sacked  by  police. 
August  17 — Creameries  at  Castleeiny,  Loughmore,  and  Killea,   County 

Tipperary,  destroyed  by  police. 
August  19 — Bantry,  County  Cork,  shot  up  by  police. 
August  21 — Oranmore,  County  Galway,  sacked  by  police. 
August  23 — Glengariff,  County  Cork,  shot  up  by  police. 
August  24 — Several  premises  at  Dundalk,   County  Louth,  wrecked  by 

troops. 
August    25 — Kill,    County    Waterford,    wrecked    by    police. 
August  26 — Creamery  at   Knocklong,   County   Limerick,   destroyed   by 

police. 
August  26 — Shanagolden,  County  Limerick,  partially  sacked  by  police. 
August  26 — Nass,   County  Kildare,   shot  up   by   police. 
August  27 — Queenstown,  County  Cork,  sacked  by  troops. 
September  1 — Ballaghadereen,  County  Mayo,  sacked  by  police. 
September  2 — Inniscarra,   County  Cork,  partially  sacked  by  police. 
September  10 — Tullow,  County  Carlow,  sacked  by  police. 
September  17 — Galway  City  shot  up  and  bombed  by  police. 
September  18 — Several  houses  wrecked  and  fired  by  police  in   County 

Limerick. 
September    19 — Several    houses    at    Salthill,    County    Galway,    wrecked 

and  fired   by  police. 
September  20 — Carrick-on-Shannon,   County   Leitrim,   partially   sacked 

by  police. 
September  20 — Tuam,  County  Galway,  shot  up  by  police.  • 

September  20 — Balbriggan,   County  Dublin,  sacked  by  police. 
September  21 — Balbriggan,    County   Dublin,   shot   up   by   police. 
September    22 — Drumshambo,     County    Leitrim,    partially    sacked    by 

police. 
September  22 — Houses   at   Tuam,    County    Galway,   and    Galway   City 

wrecked  by  police. 
September  22 — Ennistymon,   County  Clare,  sacked  by  police. 
September  22 — Lahinch,  County  Clare,  sacked  by  police. 
September   22 — Miltown-Malbay,    County    Clare,    sacked   by    police. 
September  22 — Houses  at  Galway  City  wrecked  and  looted  by  police. 


825 

September  24 — Newspaper  offices  and  houses  at  Galway   City   bombed 
and   wrecked   by  police. 

September  24 — Ballinamore,  County  Leitrim,  shot  up  by  police. 
September     25 — Several      houses      at      Athloue,     County     Westmeath, 

wrecked. 
September  25 — Houses  wrecked  at   Killorglin,  County   Kerry,  by   police. 
September   27 — Trim,    County    Meatli,    sacked    by    police. 

ARSON   RAMPANT  IN  CORK 

The  Witness:  The  separate  fires  which  took  place  in  Cork  before 
the  big,  fire  to  which  I  referred,  I  have  a  list  of  them  here,  which 
may  be  of  interest, — premises  wholly  or  partially  burned  in  previous 
incendiary  fires,  in  which  the  damage  estimated  was  well  over  one 
million  pounds,  and  that  is  in  addition  to  the  big  fire  in  Cork. 
These  fires  occurred  on  separate  nights,  as  I  have  explained  to  you. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Are  they  all  in  the  City  of  Cork?  A.  Yes. 
Messrs.  Dwyer  &  Co..  Ltd.,  Washington  Street,  which  is  one  of  the 
largest  wholesale  warehouses  in  Cork,  a  very  determined  effort 
was  made  to  burn  that,  but  the  effort  was  unsuccessful,  owing  to 
the  sprinkler  arrangement  which  the  firm  had  installed.  The  sprink- 
ler arrangement  saved  the  premises.  Not  only  were  petrol  tins 
found  on  the  premises,  but  bales  of  woolen  and  cotton  goods  were 
found  stretched  along  the  corridors  and  on  the  stairs,  saturated  with 
petrol.  Messrs.  Forrest,  Patrick  Street,  was  burned  out.  Messrs. 
Cahill  &  Co..  Blackthorn  House,  and  American  Shoe  Company, — 
these  three  houses  were  in  a  row  at  the  corner  or  intersection  of 
Patrick  Street  by  one  of  the  side  streets.  Just  as  in  regard  to  the 
City  Hall  and  the  Sinn  Fein  Clubs,  in  the  case  of  the  Blackthorn 
House  three  or  four  previous  raids  had  been  made,  and  the  place 
smashed  and  looted  before  this  final  and  successful  effort  to  burn 
it  out. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  is  not  the  large  conflagration  you  are 
speaking  of?  A.  No,  prior  conflagrations  which  occurred  night 
after  night  before  the  large  fire. 

Q.  By  whom  was  this  list  compiled,  to  your  knowledge?  I  am 
referring  to  this  list  you  have  put  in  of  the  90  Irish  towns  ravaged 
in  12  months.'  A.  That  is  issued  as  the  Irish  Bulletin.  It  is  an 
official  publication  of  the  government  in  Ireland,  the  Republican 
Government.  The  facts,  of  course,  have  all  appeared  in  the  daily 
press  all  over  the  country. 

Q.  They  have  all  appeared  in  the  public  press?  A.  Yes.  They 
are  taken  from  the  public  press. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Has  there  ever  been  a  denial  by  Sir 
Hamar  Greenwood  as  to  the  accuracy  of  any  such  lists?  A.  Yes, 
in  the  same  way  in  which  the  burning  of  Cork  was  denied,  not  that 
it  was  denied  the  burning  took  place,  but  the  effort  beina'  made  to 


826 


deny  that  it  was  done  by  the  Crown  forces,  while  the  circumstances 
make  it  clear  that  it  would  be  absolutely  impossible  for  it  to  have 
been  done  by  any  others.      (Continues  reading)  : 

O'Gorman's,  MacCurtain  Street;  Dalton's  Restaurant;  The  Royal 
Liver  Assce.  Society;  two  houses  on  North  Main  Street;  former  Sinn 
Fein  headquarters,  56  Grand  Parade;  Pipers  Club,  Hardwicks  St.; 
the  Sinn  Fein  Rooms,  N.  E.  Ward;  Sinn  Fein  Rooms,  Shandon 
Street;  one  house  on  St.  Augustine  Street;  Recreation  Hall,  Doug- 
las; St.  Michael's  Hall,  Blackrock.  Both  of  these  last  places  are  in 
the  suburbs  of  Cork.  The  Irish  Transport  and  General  Workers' 
Union.  That  was  a  most  determined  effort,  the  attempt  on  Labor 
headquarters.  The  fire  was  started  at  first  early  in  the  night,  shortly 
after  curfew. 

Q.  What  time  is  the  curfew?  A.  At  10  o'clock,  the  law  being 
from  10  o'clock  until  3,  and  of  course  in  the  period  from  10  until 
8  or  9  in  the  morning  no  citizen  may  be  out  of  doors  without  run- 
ning a  risk.  During  that  time  the  city  is  patrolled  by  military  lor- 
ries and  by  military  and  police  patrols  on  foot.  In  that  particular 
case,  the  fire  having  been  started  quite  early  in  the  night,  the  fire 
brigade  was  notified  and  repaired  to  the  scene  and  extinguished  the 
fire.  On  their  way  back  there  was  considerable  firing;  a  number  of 
shots  were  fired  at  them,  with  the  result  that  when  an  hour  or  so 
later  they  were  notified  the  fire  had  been  started  again,  they  were 
unable  to  proceed  to  the  scene  until  after  seven  in  the  morning,  and 
when  they  got  there  the  fire  had  made  such  headway  that  they  were 
unable  to  extinguish  it,  and  the  premises  were  destroyed.  Then  the 
Thomas  Ashe  Sinn  Fein  Club,  Father  Matthew  Quay;  the  City  Hall, 
— the  City  Hall  having  been  attacked  on  three  previous  occasions. 

BRITISH  GOVERNMENT  IGNORES  CITY'S  PLEAS 
FOR  PROTECTION 

That  covers  the  situation  up  to  the  Saturday  night  on  which  the 
commercial  heart  of  Cork  was  burned  out.  While  these  isolated 
fires,  a  list  of  which  I  have  just  read,  were  taking  place  in  Cork, 
certain  of  the  public  bodies  in  Cork,  notably  the  Cork  Chamber  of 
Commerce,  wired  to  the  British  officials  calling  their  attention  to 
this  state  of  incendiarism  which  was  rampant  in  Cork. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  British  officials  in  London  or  Dublin 
Castle?  A.  No,  London,  asking  for  protection.  The  same  body 
afterwards,  as  we  shall  see  in  the  big  fire,  appealed  for  protection; 
but  the  only  result  was  in  the  fires  being  intensified  and  in  the  city 
being  burned  down.  The  same  body  again  wired  to  the  British 
officials  asking  for  an  impartial  inquiry,  which  was  refused. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Was  that  first  request  answered  from  London? 
A.     Not  so  far  as  I  know  or  have  seen.    The  following  is  a  copy  of 


827 


the  telegram  sent  to  the  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland  on  the  29th  of 
November : 

"Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland,  Chief  Secretary's  Office,  London, 
S.  W. :  Council  of  Chamber  desire  to  draw  attention  of  Chief  Secre- 
tary to  number  of  incendiary  fires  occurring  in  Cork,  more  especially 
within  the  last  few  days,  resulting  in  enormous  destruction  of  prop- 
erty, and  request  immediate  steps  for  protection  of  citizens'  property. 
(Signed)  "Danckert,  Honorable  Secretary, 
"Cork   Chamber  of  Commerce  and  Shipping." 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  in 
Cork  a  predominantly  Republican  body,  or  predominantly  Union- 
ist? A.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  say  at  the  moment.  It  is  essentially  a 
body  which  we  do  not  measure  by  political  affiliations.  It  is  purely 
a  commercial  body.  It  would  be  very  largely  Republican,  of  course. 
'Ml  the  large  business  men  in  Cork,  the  large  drapery  establish- 
ments, for  instance,  and  a  number  of  Unionists,  all  belong  to  the 
Chamber  of  Commerce.  It  is  essentially  a  body  which  does  not 
deal  with  politics  in  any  shape  or  form. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Has  there  been  a  change  in  political  senti- 
ment among  that  class  of  men  within  the  last  two  years?  A.  0, 
yes,  certainly.  While  of  course  I  presume  most  of  the  Unionists  are 
still  Unionists,  there  has  been  a  considerable  landslide  in  the  direc- 
tion of  Republicanism  among  those  who  were  not  Republicans,  say, 
a  year  or  two  since. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  is  a  world-wide  proceeding  now,  it 
seems.    A.    Yes.    That  now,  of  course,  is  so. 

NO  PERSONAL  COMPARISON  WITH  BELGIAN 
ATROCITIES 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Have  you  tried  to  compare  the  campaign  of  the 
British  authorities  in  Ireland  with  the  campaign  of  the  German 
military  authorities  in  Belgium?  For  instance,  first,  the  destruction 
of  towns;  second,  the  service  of  notice  such  as  was  served  at  Lou- 
vain;  third,  the  killing  of  priests  and  the  taking  of  bishops  as  host- 
ages; then  the  destruction  of  large  cities,  and  so  on?  Have  you 
made  that  comparison,  and  have  you  prepared  any  data  showing 
how  they  did  apparently  follow  the  same  line?  A.  No,  sir,  I  have 
not  done  anything  of  that  kind.  Of  course,  it  seems  to  me,  and  I 
think  it  is  perfectly  clear,  that  very  few  people  now  believe  that  all 
the  crimes  and  atrocities  alleged,  and  news  of  which  was  dissemi- 
nated during  that  period,  did  take  place.  That  I  think  is  pretty 
universally  doubted  now. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  You  have  no  personal  method  or  special 
opportunity  of  making  this  comparison,  have  you?     A.     No,  sir. 


828 

THE  BURNING  OF  CORK 

Q.  Let  us  get  on  to  the  burning  of  Cork,  beeause  I  do  not  think 
the  other  matter  affects  us  very  materially.  A.  Very  well,  sir.  On 
this  particular  night  the  fires  in  Cork  started  about  a  quarter  to  ten. 
Curfew  began  at  ten. 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  the  month?  A.  The  fires  took  place 
on  the  10th. 

Q.     On  Saturday,  the  10th  of  December?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Cork  that  night  yourself?  A.  No.  I  was  in 
Cork  that  evening,  but  I  left  town  that  night.  I  was  about  two  miles 
outside  of  the  town  at  the  time  of  the  fires.  On  this  particular  night, 
while  curfew  usually  began  at  ten  o'clock,  the  rumor  had  spread 
through  the  town  early  that  there  had  been  an  attack  of  some  kind 
in  the  northeast  ward  of  the  city,  in  Dillon's  Cross  direction.  While 
nothing  was  known  definitely  of  the  matter,  shortly  before  that  or 
about  nine  o'clock  military  cars  drove  through  the  town  very  wildly 
and  recklessly  and  a  number  of  shots  were  fired,  with  the  result  that, 
while  nobody  was  certain  what  had  taken  place,  everybody  imme- 
diately went  home.  The  streets  were  cleared  quite  early;  they  were 
cleared  practically  at  nine  o'clock,  or  very,  very  shortly  after  nine 
o'clock.  The  streets  were  deserted  in  a  very  short  time  so  that  to 
all  intents  and  purposes  on  that  particular  night  curfew  started  an 
hour  earlier  than  usual.  At  about  a  quarter  to  ten,  shortly  before 
ten,  the  first  outbreak  of  fire  was  noticed  in  Patrick  Street.  That 
was  the  premises  of  Alexander  Grant  &  Company.  They  have  a 
very  large  warehouse,  a  general  merchandise  store.  That  fire  raged 
for  some  hours.  Ultimately  the  particular  block  in  which  that 
stood,  that  is  the  premises  itself,  was  burned  out;  but  the  fire  did 
not  spread  to  the  adjoining  buildings  on  either  side.  That  particular 
block  was  simply  burned  out  clear. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Did  the  fire  department  attempt  to  extin- 
guish the  flames?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  fire  department  were  there,  but 
they  were  not  able  to  prevent  that  destruction. 

Later  on,  about  eleven,  between  eleven  and  half  past  eleven,  the 
outbreaks  took  place  all  along  Patrick  Street.  It  first  broke  out  in 
the  premises  of  Forrest.  Forrest  had  already  been  partially  de- 
stroyed. The  outbreak  took  place  there  first,  but  after  a  very  short 
time  different  local  outbreaks  were  noticed  all  along  the  street,  and 
as  a  result  when  the  fire  brigade  turned  out  they  were  practically 
powerless. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Is  Patrick  Street  the  principal  street  <>f 
Cork?  A.  Yes,  the  main  business  thoroughfare,  the  heart  of  the 
city.  The  result  was  that  when  some  hours  had  passed,  the  fire  had 
such  a  grip  on  all  that  side  of  the  street  that  nothing  could  have 
saved  it. 


829 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Was  the  fire  department  still  operating? 
A.  \es.  thev  were.  The  result,  of  course,  of  the  fire  was  only  seen 
on  the  following  day.  It  was  then  that  it  was  discovered  that  twice 
the  greater  portion,  nearly  all  of  the  destruction,  was  on  one  side 
of  the  street.  A  frontage  of  ahout  a  quarter  of  a  mile  was  entirely 
burned  out.  and  beside  that,  the  blocks  running  off  of  Patrick  Street 
were  also  laid  waste.  In  fact,  when  you  came  to  view  the  situation 
for  the  first  time  after  the  fire,  on  the  following  day,  Patrick  Street 
was  really  unrecognizable;  you  could  not  tell  where  the  street  was, 
where  the  splendid  buildings  had  been.  There  was  simply  a  wilder- 
ness of  ruin  and  debris. 

The  houses  burned  out  were  in  some  cases  shops,  small  ordinary 
shops;  but  in  very  many  cases  they  were  large  warehouses,  the  larg- 
est houses  in  Cork,  four  or  five  of  them.  These  were  notably  the 
Minister  Arcade,  which  was  one  of  the  largest  warehouses  in  Cork, 
and  employing  two  or  three  hundred. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  When  you  say  warehouse,  you  mean,  as  we  call 
them  here,  department  stores?  A.  Yes.  Also  Cash  &  Company, 
which  was  similarly  a  large  store, — grocery  stores.  There  were  at 
least  four  such  large  stores,  including  the  Grant's,  where  roughly 
200  or  250  employees,  and  in  one  or  two  cases  about  300  employees 
were  engaged.  In  only  one  case  in  all  that  destruction  along  all  that 
frontage  was  there  a  front  wall  of  a  shop  left  standing.  That  was 
in  the  case  of  Sumner,  a  chemist,  in  Patrick  Street,  where  the  front 
wall  stood,  but  all  along  the  rest  of  the  frontage  everything  had 
been  levelled,  and  there  was  not  even  a  front  wall  standing.  This 
was  all  on  one  side  of  Patrick  Street.  That  was  also  the  case  with 
certain  blocks  running  off  from  Patrick  Street.  Back  from  Cash's 
there  was  one  block  running  from  Cash's  to  the  Postoffice,  and  across 
the  road  from  Winthrop  Street  on  the  other  side.  There  were  two 
blocks  running  from  Patrick  Street  to  Old  Georges  Street  burned  out. 

BURNING  OF  CITY  HALL  AND  LIBRARY 

Apart  from  that,  which  was  the  main  fire,  away  across  the  river, 
about  a  distance  of  a  quarter  of  a  mile,  and  at  the  other  side  of  the 
river,  the  City  Hall,  which  was  the  site,  of  course,  of  the  local  city 
government,  the  municipal  buildings,  the  free  library,  and  so  on, 
were  burned  out.  An  effort  was  made  by  the  Chief  Secretary  for 
Ireland  to  say  that  that  was  a  part  of  the  same  fire,  and  that  those 
premises  had  simply  taken  fire  from  the  large  fire  in  Patrick  Street. 
It  is  quite  clear  how  obviously  ridiculous  that  is,  and  how  typical 
of  the  truth  of  the  government's  statements  with  regard  to  Ireland, 
when  the  fact  is  remembered  that  the  City  Hall,  the  municipal  build- 
ings and  the  free  library  were  fully  a  distance  of  a  quarter  of  a 
mile  and  were  at  the  other  side  of  the  river.     Not  only  would  the 


830 

fire  have  had  to  pass  through  all  the  intervening  buildings  and 
streets  in  that  quarter  of  a  mile,  but  it  would  also  have  blown 
across  the  River  Lee. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Was  there  a  wind  blowing  at  the  time  of 
the  fire?  A.  There  was,  sir,  but  not  very  much,  fortunately.  That 
night  it  was  very  calm. 

Q.  That  accounts,  perhaps,  for  the  other  side  of  Patrick  Street 
not  being  burned?  A.  It  certainly  does,  and  it  also  accounts  for 
the  two  ends  of  the  city  which  were  burned.  Had  the  night  been 
wild,  the  street  would  have  been  completely  wiped  out  between  the 
two  corners  which  remain. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  whelher  the  City  Hall  and 
the  municipal  buildings  on  the  other  side  of  the  river  burned  simul- 
taneously with  the  fire  in  Patrick  Street?  A.  No,  sir,  they  were 
lather  later.  The  City  Hall  fire  was  first  noticed  about  three  o'clock 
in  the  morning,  and  it  burned  steadily  from  then  until  six.  The 
clock  on  the  City  Hall  tolled  until  a  quarter  to  six.  About  five 
minutes  before  a  quarter  to  six  the  clock  fell,  and  shortly  after- 
wards the  fire  had  reached  the  stage  where  it  smoldered.  By  that 
time  the  place  had  nearly  been  burned  out.  The  clock  stood  until 
practically  the  whole  building  had  been  burned  out. 

ONLY  MILITARY  AND  POLICE  ON  THE  STREETS 

Q.  During  all  this  time,  of  course,  the  people  did  not  come  out? 
A.     0,  no. 

Q.     The  streets  were  clear?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Were  there  any  military  forces  out,  50  far  as  you  know?  A. 
There  were.  The  ordinary  military  forces  were  out,  and  they,  with 
the  police,  were  on  the  streets. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  is  usual  when  there  are  military 
in  a  town  for  the  military  to  turn  to  and  help  the  fire  brigade.  Was 
that  done  in  Cork?  A.  Not  so  far  as  helping  in  the  ordinary  sense 
is  concerned.  It  was  to  this  extent,  that,  I  think,  during  the  night, 
and  I  know  during  the  following  day,  they  formed  a  cordon  around 
the  buildings. 

FIRE  BRIGADE  FIRED  UPON 

Q.  Was  there  any  interference  with  the  fire  brigade  there  in  Pat- 
rick Street,  at  the  Patrick  Street  fire  or  at  the  City  Hall  fire?  A. 
Yes,  the  fire  brigade  allege  that  they  were  fired  upon  that  night. 
I  thought  that  I  had  with  me  a  deposition  bearing  on  that,  but  un- 
fortunately I  find  I  have  not.  They  also  told  me  that  the  hose  was 
cut  in  one  case,  while  dealing  with  the  first  outbreak  in  Grant's. 
While  I  know  that  they  have  told  me  that,  unfortunately  I  find  I 
have  not  got  those  depositions  with  me,  as  I  thought  I  had. 


831 

Q.  Is  there  any  evidence  that  the  high  military  command  in  Cork 
exercised  any  of  the  usual  precautions  which  might  be  exercised  in 
such  an  emergency,  in  order  to  assist  in  the  fighting  of  the  fire? 
A.  I  do  not  know  of  anything.  I  have  not  heard  or  seen  any- 
thing.    I  do  not  think  so. 

FIRE  LOSSES  FOUR  MILLION  POUNDS 

The  actual  losses  represented  by  the  fires  on  that  night  have  been 
estimated  at  somewhere  in  the  region  of  two  and  a  half  or  three 
millions.  As  I  explained  a  while  ago,  the  damages  caused  by  the 
previous  isolated  fires  would  be  over  a  million. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  You  refer  to  pounds,  not  dollars?  A.  To 
pounds. 

Q.  In  other  words,  say,  £3,000,000?  A.  The  total  loss  was  four 
millions,  including  this  fire  and  the  isolated  fires — roughly 
$20,000,000. 

GREAT    USEFULNESS    OF    CITY    HALL    AND 
LIBRARY  TO  PEOPLE  OF  CORK 

Q.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  I  was  going  to  suggest  that  before  you  go 
on,  if  you  could,  to  describe  a  little  more  in  detail  for  the  benefit 
of  the  Commission  about  your  City  Hall,  as  to  what  kind  of  a 
building  it  was,  and  whether  or  not  it  was  surrounded  by  a  park? 
A.  The  City  Hall  proper  was  a  large  meeting  or  concert  hall,  the 
largest  hall  in  Cork.  It  provided  seating  accommodations  for  about 
2,000  people,  between  the  body  of  the  hall  and  the  gallery.  We 
had  in  it  an  organ  which  had  a  reputation  of  its  own  in  Cork.  The 
organ  was  first  procured  at  the  time  of  the  Cork  International  Ex- 
position in  1902,  and  subsequent  to  the  exposition  was  installed  in 
the  City  Hall.  All  around  the  large  vestibule  through  which  one 
passed  into  the  City  Hall  proper  were  the  municipal  buildings;  all 
the  offices  of  the  municipal  officials  were  there,  the  town  clerk,  the 
city  solicitors,  the  city  engineers,  the  public  health  department,  and 
so  on.  All  these  departments  had  their  offices  in  the  front  of  the 
building.  In  the  front  of  the  building  also  was  the  council  chamber, 
in  which  the  Cork  Corporation  held  its  meeting,  as  well  as  a  number 
of  committee  rooms  and  rooms  for  the  members  of  the  Corporation, 
and  of  course  the  Lord  Mayor's  room. 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  How  old  was  this  building?  A.  It  was 
about  50  years  old. 

Q.     Stone  or  brick?     A.     It  was  of  stone. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  And  a  slate  roof,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  slate 
roof.  Then  at  the  front  of  it,  or  just  at  the  side,  was  the  Carnegie 
Free  Library.  It  was  certainly  a  very  fine,  ornamental  building, 
and  naturally  a  very  useful  building  to  the  city. 


832 

Q.  Senator  Walsh:  Were  the  books  all  burned?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
they  were  reduced  to  ashes. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  large  a  library  was  it?  How  many 
books?     A.     There  were  something  about  15,000  books. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Was  it  a  collection  of  ancient  books  in  the  li- 
brary, or  a  recent  library?  A.  A  recent  library,  but  the  library 
has  been  there  for  quite  a  number  of  years,  twenty  or  twenty-five 
years, — the  gift  of  Mr.  Carnegie.  The  books,  of  course,  were  mixed 
in  the  ordinary  way  in  which  the  books  in  a  public  library  would  be. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  ancient  manuscripts?  A.  No,  there  was 
nothing  of  historical  value  in  that  particular  way. 

CORK  BURNED  BY  BRITISH  CROWN  FORCES 

Q.  Before  you  go  on  from  there,  I  want  to  get  this  clearly  and 
definitely  settled.  I  do  not  think  it  has  been  brought  out  yet.  To 
whom,  definitely  and  specifically,  do  you  charge  the  burning  of 
Cork  upon?  A.  I  was  just  getting  to  that.  I  charge  definitely  the 
British  Crown  forces  in  Cork. 

One  of  the  unfortunate  things  about  the  burning  of  the  City  Hall 
itself  was  that  all  of  the  city  records  were  burned.  That  will  create 
a  great  deal  of  difficulty  in  the  functioning  of  the  different  depart- 
ments of  the  Corporation  for  some  time  to  come.  The  records  of 
the  rates  and  the  water  records  and  all  the  city  records  were,  of 
course  destroyed. 

PREMISES  BURNED  AND  AMOUNT  OF  CLAIMS 

One  of  the  clearest  and  best. ways  in  which  to  give  you  an  idea, 
to  those  who  cannot  visualize  the  city,  and  have  not  known  the  city, 
would  be,  I  think,  to  read  a  list  of  the  premises  burned  and  a  list  of 
the  claims  which  have  been  lodged  officially  with  the  Crown. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  I  was  going  to  ask  about  the  ownership 
of  these  various  premises  or  blocks,  and  the  religion  of  the  owners 
of  these  premises.  Have  you  any  record  of  that?  Aside  from  the 
fact  that  about  95  per  cent  of  the  population  of  Cork  is  probably 
associated  with  Sinn  Fein  in  some  way  politically,  and  a  large  ma- 
jority Roman  Catholics,  I  was  wondering  whether  these  larger  es- 
tablishments were  owned  by  British  capital, — for  instance,  like  the 
Mall,  which  I  understand  was  a  British  capital  enterprise.  A.  Yes. 
While  I  have  not  any  tabulated  information  with  regard  to  them,  I 
know  that  in  many  cases  the  larger  premises,  these  larger  ware- 
houses or  stores,  were  not  owned,  so  far  as  I  know,  to  any  great  ex- 
tent, by  British  capital,  by  English  capital  as  such.  They  were 
owned  to  a  large  extent  by  Unionists,  and  of  course  by  Protestants 
to  a  certain  extent.  The  list  that  has  been  lodged  in  Cork  with  the 
town  clerk  amounts  roughly  to  $15,000,000.      It  runs  as  follows. 


833 

These  amounts,  of  course,  would  he  the  amounts  for  which  insur- 
ance had  been  taken  under  the  ordinary  fire  policies  by  the  people 
concerned,  and  they  will  not  represent  the  figures,  or  anything  like 
[he  figures  which  would  enable  reconstruction  to  he  made  today. 
For  instance,  the  first  item  lodged  is  the  Corporation,  for  the  City 
Hall,  Carnegie  Library  and  contents,  £280.000.  Certainly  without 
any  particular  technical  knowledge  of  the  matter,  I  feel  quite  certain 
that  £280,000  would  not  build  the  City  Hall  alone  today,  or  near 
it.  I  will  give  the  amounts  as  they  were  lodged  with  the  town 
clerk : 

Corporation:    City  Hall  and  Carnegie  Library  and  contents..  £280.000 
The  Munster  Arcade, — that  is   the  large  department  store  to 
which  I   have  referred,   Messrs.  Robertson,   Ledlie,   &   Fer- 
guson, 17  to  30  Patrick   St.,  99-102  Old   Georges    St.,   and 

3   Robert   St 405,000 

The  building  referred  to  is  one  large  store,  simply  taking  in 

the  different  streets,  Patrick  and  Old  Georges   Streets. 
Cork   Furniture    Stores,   11   Merchant    St.,    a    large    furniture 

store 8,406 

William  Roche,  15  Patrick  St.,  and  21  Mayor  St 17,000 

Messrs.    Roche's    Stores     (London    House).      Another    large 

warehouse  or  department  store 1 12,000 

T.  Lyons  &  Co.,  52,  53,  54  Patrick  St 120,000 

Charles  C.  Harvev,  premises  Munster  Arcade  and  27  28  Pat- 
rick  St 31,158 

Messrs.  Cash  &  Co.,  18-21  Patrick  St.,  and  24-25  Maylor  St. .  250,000 
Cash's  is  the  second  of  the  large  warehouses. 

Saxone  Shoe  Co.,  24  Patrick  St 30,000 

Wm.  Egan  &  Sons,  Ltd 100,000 

Lee  Boot  Mfg.  Co.,  16  Patrick  St.  and  21  Maylor  St 19,000 

Wm.  Cashman  &  Co.,  Ltd.,  4  Cook  St 30,000 

Annie  Nolan,  premises  18,  19,  20,  and  21   Patrick  St 50,000 

[ames  Donovan,  for  premises  52,  53  and  54  Patrick  St.  (Grant 

&  Co. ) ,  and  51  Patrick  St.   ( Samuel  Haynes ) 37,000 

A.  M.  Walker,  premises  30  Patrick   St.   (Munster  Arcade)..  20,000 

lames  Ryan,  26  Maylor  St.  and  21,  22  Merchant  St 24,000 

Ed.  Woods,  3  Cook  St 6,000 

Richard   Sunner,  31   Patrick  St 26,000 

Messrs.  Forrest  and  Sons,  Patrick  St.,  Cook  St..  and  Elbow 

Lane    95,000 

J.  T.  O'Regan,  25-26  Patrick  St 40,000 

I.  Tvler  and   Sons,  20  Winthrop   St 12,750 

R.  and  J.  McKechnie,  Ltd.,  25  Patrick  St 21,000 

Marcus   Forester  Harvey,  25,  26  Patrick  St.,   1-9  Robert  St., 

103,    104   Georges    St 10,000 

Simon  Spiro,  9  Bridge  St.  and  3  Patrick's  Quay 3,675 

W.  Roche  and   Lee   Boot  Manufacturing  Co.,   16   Patrick   St. 

and   21    Maylor   St 17.000 

Lessees  in  Leases  of  Lee  Cinema,  Winthrop  St 10,000 

Mary  Perry,   1   and  2  Winthrop   St 10,000 

Rev.  F.  H.  Sandys  and  others,  26  Patrick  St 9,000 

T.  F..  Carroll,  13  Patrick  St.  and   103  Georges   St 11,000 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  I  think  we  gather  from 
that  which  you  have  read  the  type  of  the  thing,  and  I  do  not  believe 
it  is  worth  while  to  wear  your  voice  out  in  reading  it  further.     If 


834 

you  will  file  it  with  us  we  will  be  very  glad  to  have  it  for  reference. 
The  total,  as  I  understand  it,  comes  to  approximately  £4,000,000. 
A.  In  this  particular  case  I  judge  it  would  run  in  the  neighborhood 
of  £3,000,000.  There  had  already  been  a  million  pounds  damage 
done  in  the  previous  fires. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  I  understand  that  this  £4,000,000, 
including  all  the  fires,  does  not  represent  the  cost  of  duplicating  the 
property  at  the  present  time  by  a  great  ways?     A.     That  is  so. 

ENGLISH     INSURANCE     COMPANIES     REFUSE    TO 
PAY  LOSSES  TO  REPUBLICANS 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  In  regard  to  the  insurance,  have  you  any 
information  as  to  the  insurance  companies  with  whom  these  insur- 
ance policies  were  placed,  and  whether  there  have  been  any  objec- 
tions made  to  paying  these  losses  as  the  result  of  an  act  of  God  or 
the  King's  enemies,  or  those  other  little  riders  which  sometimes  ap- 
pear in  insurance  policies?  A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not  know  what  action 
the  insurance  companies  will  take  in  these  particular  cases.  I  do 
know  that  the  insurance  companies  have  for  some  time  inserted  in 
all  their  policies  a  particular  clause  that  the  individual  taking  out 
the  policy  must  not  belong  to  or  be  identified  with  any  Republi- 
can— I  think  it  says  any  Republican  or  seditious  movement  in  Ire- 
land. But  what  their  attitude  will  be  on  these  wholesale  claims  I 
do  not  know. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  long  has  it  been  since  that  stipula- 
tion has  been  in  the  policies?     A.     Roughly,  six  months. 

Q.     That  was  prior  to  this  fire?     A.     O,  yes. 

Q.  But  probably  not  prior  to  the  time  the  policies  were  issued 
that  were  in  existence  at  the  time  the  fire  took  place?  A.  I  should 
say  not. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  That  was  a  new  clause?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  clause  would  not  have  much  appli- 
cation to  this  fire,  would  it?  A.  I  take  it,  in  a  great  many  cases, 
if  the  insurance  companies  felt  so  inclined,  they  could  object  to 
paying  claims  to  particular  people  simply  because  they  happened 
to  be  Republicans. 

Q.  I  understand  that;  but  at  the  time  of  the  issuing  of  the 
policies  that  were  probably  in  force  when  this  fire  took  place, 
they  had  no  such  stipulation  in  the  policy?  A.  O,  they  would 
have,  because  these  policies,  especially  the  policy  which  is  most 
usually  taken  out  there  now,  is  called  a  special  riot  and  civic  com- 
motion policy.  These  are  usually  taken  out  for  short  periods,  most 
frequently  for  3  months,  sometimes  for  6  months, — rarely  for  6 
months,  and  most  frequently  for  3  months. 


835 

Q.  Would  that  l>e  the  kind  of  policies  that  were  in  force  on 
this  property?     A.     0,  yes. 

Q.  Of  course  a  provision  in  the  policy  that  the  company  would 
not  be  liable  in  case  of  fire  originating  from  the  King's  enemies 
would  not  apply  here,  as  you  claim  the  King  himself  was  the 
instigator  of  these  fires.  A.  Absolutely.  Of  course  there  are 
different  clauses.  There  is  the  ordinary  fire  insurance  policy  which 
covers  only  accidental  fire.  There  is  this  particular  policy,  which 
is  most  favored  at  the  moment,  in  regard  to  riot  and  civic  com- 
motion; and  there  is  the  policy  against  malicious  injury.  There 
is  one  case  that  has  occurred,  of  which  I  know,  .where  the  fire 
insurance  company  has  refused,  in  the  first  instance  at  all  events, 
to  pay,  in  the  case  of  one  of  the  warehouses  which  I  referred  to. 
which  was  burned  before  the  night  of  this  big  fire,  the  warehouse 
of  Dwyer  &  Company. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  When  you  refer  to  "warehouse"  you  mean 
department  stores?  A.  Yes,  large  department  stores.  When  that 
was  attacked  the  complete  destruction  was  prevented,  as  I  told  you, 
by  the  installation  of  this  sprinkler  arrangement.  The  amount  of 
the  damage  claimed,  I  think,  was  £10,000.  In  that  particular  case, 
although  covered  against  riot  and  civic  commotion,  I  understand 
the  insurance  company  have,  in  the  first  instance,  refused  to  pay, 
maintaining,  as  I  am  informed,  that  there  was  no  riot,  and  neither 
was  there  civic  commotion.  The  case,  of  course,  will  be  contested 
in  the  courts,  if  it  has  not  already  appeared  there,  and  will  be 
decided;  and  possibly  that  particular  case,  to  a  large  extent,  will 
govern  the  claims  on  all  the  subsequent  fires. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  These  insurance  companies  that  put  this  new 
clause  in  that  you  cannot  be  a  Republican  and  so  on,  they  are  the 
English  insurance  companies,  are  they  not?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  most  of  your  insurance  carried 
in  the  Liverpool  and  other  big  insurance  companies.     A.     O,  yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  any  American  insurance  companies  do 
any  business  over  there?  A.  They  do,  but  not  in  fire.  They  do 
a  certain  amount  in  life. 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Do  you  know  as  to  the  fact  whether  any  Amer- 
ican insurance  companies,  if  they  have  policies  in  force,  have 
taken  any  action  or  protest  against  the  action  of  the  military  and 
the  British  officials  in  that  town  causing  this  fire?  A.  No,  sir,  not 
so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  You  have  not  got  the  list  of  the  insurance  companies  af- 
fected by  the  fire,  have  you?     A.     No,  I  have  not  such  a  list. 

PEOPLE  MADE  HOMELESS  BY  FIRE 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  it  not  true  that  some  parts  of  the 
buildings  which  were  destroyed  were  used  for  residential  purposes? 


836 

A.     Yes,  in  a  great  many  cases  residences  were  upstairs. 

Q.  What  happened  to  the  people?  Was  there  much  loss  of 
life  in  connection  with  it?  A.  The  number  affected  in  that  was 
not  so  great,  for  this  reason,  that  while  these  isolated  fires  had 
been  taking  place,  wherever  possible  people  who  had  been  living 
over  these  business  premises  in  the  center  of  the  city  moved  to 
friends  in  the  residential  portions.  There  were  not  a  great  num- 
ber in  that  particular  area.  Those,  I  think,  who  were,  of  course, 
had  to  come  out  when  the  fire  started,  where  they  were  not  already 
alarmed  by  the  outbreak  elsewhere  and  on  the  lookout, — they  had 
to  come  out  and  be  taken  into  neighboring  houses  on  the  other 
side  of  the  street.  The  largest  case  of  that  which  I  heard  of  was 
the  case  of  the  Munster  Arcade,  where  I  understand  there  was  some- 
thing like  20  or  25  girls  upstairs.  They  came  out  with  a  consider- 
able amount  of  distress  and  alarm,  but  I  think  they  were  all  safely 
housed  on  the  other  side  of  the  street. 

INVESTIGATION  BY  BRITISH  LABOR  COMMISSION 
CONVICTS  CROWN  FORCES  OF  BURNING  CORK 
Q.  I  do  not  want  to  interrupt  in  any  way  the  course  of  your 
story,  but  I  saw  in  the  paper  the  report  of  the  British  Labor  Party's 
investigation,  which  said  they  had  what  was  perfectly  convincing 
evidence  to  them  that  this  fire  had  been  started  by  the  Crown 
forces.  Have  you  anything  of  that  to  place  before  us?  A.  What 
I  intended  to  do  in  that  regard,  sir,  was  to  read  or  to  hand  in  that 
statement  by  the  Labor  Commission,  because  I  personally  have  no 
particular  evidence  bearing  on  it,  owing  to  the  fact  that  I  left 
Cork  on  the  Monday  following  the  fire. 

Q.  The  fire  started  Saturday  night,  and  you  left  Monday?  A. 
I  left  Monday  evening,  and  in  the  interval  I  had  not  time  to  do 
anything  in  the  nature  of  compiling  evidence  with  regard  to  that 
particular  aspect,  although  it  was  being  done  for  me.  However,  I 
have  not  yet  got  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  what  evidence  was  submitted  to  them? 
A.  To  the  Labor  Party?  No.  But  I  do  know  that  in  the  interval 
between  the  fire  and  my  leaving,  that  I,  of  course,  had  a  pretty 
busy  time.  But  I  know  that  it  was  quite  common  rumor  at  the 
time  that  there  were  a  number  of  people  who  had  from  the  houses 
seen  the  police  actually  engaged  in  setting  the  fires,  and  I  have  sent 
men  to  get  these  statements,  to  collect  them  in  the  city.  But  up  to 
that  evening  when  I  left,  I  was  not  able  to  get  them,  and  I  have  not 
got  them  since.  But  I  have  no  doubt  they  are  available  in  Cork, 
and  very  probably  you  will  have  them  here  before  your  Commis- 
sion ends.  However,  in  answer  to  your  question,  I  think  I  can  put 
in  that  report  of  the  Labor  Party  Commission. 


837 

Chairman  Wood:     Very  well. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  might  be  well,  Mr.  Chairman,  if 
the  Lord  Mayor  is  not  in  the  country  when  this  evidence  comes,  if 
he  could  arrange  to  have  his  counsel,  Mr.  Doyle,  see  that  it 
reaches  us. 

Chairman  Wood :    Yes. 

A.  I  will  do  that.  sir.  I  had  already  intended  to  do  it.  1 
thought,  of  course,  I  would  have  them  here  in  order  to  present  to 
you,  but  as  I  have  not,  it  will  be  quite  a  simple  thing  to  arrange 
it  with  Mr.  Doyle  so  that  the  matter  will  reach  you,  properly 
sworn  to. 

This  statement  was  issued  by  the  British  Labor  Commission  on 
its  visit  to  Cork.  It  is  taken  from  the  Cork  Examiner  of  Friday 
morning,  December  17,  1920,  and  reads  as  follows: 

"Two  members  of  the  Commission,  Messrs.  Lawson  and  Lnnn.  were 
delegated  to  visit  Cork  City  on  Monday,  December  13th,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  investigating  the  cause,  extent,  and  general  circumstances  of 
tbe  conflagration  which  occurred  on  Saturday  night  and  during  the 
early  hours  of  Sunday  morning.  The  news  of  the  destruction  in  Cork 
did  not  come  as  a  surprise  to  the  Commission.  During  its  stay  in 
Cork  last  week  the  Commission  could  not  avoid  the  feeling  that  a 
serious  outbreak  of  trouble  was  probable.  There  were  signs  of  in- 
creasing irritation  provoked  by  the  R.  I.  C,  Auxiliary  Division,  which 
we  were  convinced  at  the  time  might  result  in  retaliation  against  the 
Crown  forces  or  in  bolder  or  more  intensified  action  on  the  part  of 
the  Auxiliary  Police. 

"The  two  members  of  the  Commission  who  traveled  to  Cork  for  the 
special  purpose  of  investigating  the  events  of  the  week  end  made  as 
close  an  examination  of  the  situation  as  the  time  permitted.  They 
visited  the  razed  areas  and  took  evidence  from  responsible  citizens  on 
the  subject.  In  view  of  the  extended  reports  of  the  fire  in  the  press, 
it  is  unnecessary  to  specify  and  describe  the  gutted  buildings,  but  the 
newspaper  accounts  convey  only  a  faint  impression  of  the  terrible 
havoc  wrought  in  the  city.  It  would  be  difficult  to  conceive  a  scene  of 
greater  desolation  than  that  presented  by  the  destroyed  business  prem- 
ises in  the  center  of  Cork. 

"The  whole  Commission  had  an  opportunity  during  last  week  of  see- 
ing the  town  before  the  latest  calamity  which  has  befallen  it.  The 
contrast  was  striking  and  appalling.  It  is  clear  that  the  incendiaries 
sought  out  the  most  valuable  premises  in  the  town.  Large  business 
houses  and  massively  fronted  shops  have  been  reduced  to  piles  of 
smoldering  debris,  charred  woodwork,  and  twisted  iron  girders.  It 
was  not  possible,  even  approximately,  to  estimate  the  money  value  of 
the  property  destroyed,  but  business  men  informed  the  members  of  the 
Commission  that  it  might  run  into  millions  of  pounds.  The  disaster 
will  involve  the  unemployment  of  a  considerable  number  of  workers 
in  addition  to  those  who  will  be  indirectly  thrown  out  of  work  as  a 
result  of  the  fire. 

"The  commerce  of  the  city  has  already  suffered  very  appreciably  as 
a  result  of  the  events  of  recent  months,  and  the  incendiarism  of  the 
past  week  end  will  strike  a  further  blow  at  the  economic  activities  of 
the  city  of  Cork. 

"Inquiries  made  and  statements  elicited  enable  the  members  of  the 
Commission  to  make  the  following  statement,  which  a  number  of  wit- 


338 

nesses  interviewed  are  prepared,  if  given  adequate  guarantees  for  their 
future  security,  to  substantiate  on  oath : 

"Shortly  after  9  P.  M.  on  Saturday  auxiliary  police  and  Black-and- 
Tans  appeared  in  large  numbers  in  the  streets  of  the  city,  and  at  the 
revolver  point  (before  actual  firing  took  place)  drove  people  to  their 
homes  earlier  than  the  curfew  regulations  required.  This  was  re- 
garded by  the  citizens  as  ominous,  and  increased  the  nervousness 
which  had  been  caused  by  the  ambush  at  Dillon's  Cross,  and  the  appre- 
hensions of  reprisals  that  were  naturally  entertained  by  the  people. 

"The  streets  were  soon  entirely  deserted,  and  the  work  of  destruc- 
tion begun.  The  first  of  the  burnings  took  place  at  Grant's  extensive 
premises  in  Patrick  Street,  and  during  the  night  new  fires  broke  out. 
At  4  A.  M.  the  City  Hall  was  fired,  and  the  efforts  of  the  firemen 
failed  to  save  it.  It  was  completely  gutted.  But  a  few  days  previously 
the  Commission  had  taken  evidence  in  the  City  Hall  of  the  unfortunate 
occurrences  in  Cork  during  the  past  few  months.  The  City  Library, 
adjacent  to  the  Hall,  was  destroyed. 

"The  members  of  the  Commission  made  special  inquiry  regarding 
the  origin  and  cause  of  the  fires,  and  numerous  witnesses  were  inter- 
viewed. They  were  unanimous  in  stating  that  the  fires  were  caused  by 
the  Crown  forces.  Some  persons  had  witnessed  the  entry  of  members 
of  the  forces  into  buildings  which  shortly  afterwards  were  on  fire. 
In  some  cases  explosions  occurred.  Others  again  saw  them  looting. 
The  smashing  of  glass  and  doors  was  heard,  as  men  forced  their  way 
into  business  premises  for  the  purpose  of  looting. 

"Firemen  of  the  local  brigade  received  assistance  from  the  military 
engaged  on  patrol  duty  during  curfew  hours.  The  old  R.  I.  C.  men, 
as  distinct  from  the  Black-and-Tans,  were  engaged  mainly  in  convey- 
ing to  the  brigade  information  of  further  outbreaks  of  fire  occurring 
from  time  to  time  during  the  night.  Two  members  of  the  brigade 
were  slightly  wounded  by  bullets  whilst  carrying  out  their  duties. 

"The  members  of  the  Commission  direct  attention  particularly  to  the 
following  facts : 

"(1)  The  fires  occurred  after  the  Crown  forces  had  forced  the 
people  indoors.  During  the  greater  part  of  the  time  that  outbreaks  of 
fire  took  place,  the  curfew  regulations  were  in  operation.  Curfew  ends 
at  3  A.  M.  But  the  military  on  curfew  duty  patrolled  the  streets  until 
5  :30  A.  M. 

"(2)  Eye-witnesses,  observing  fires  from  adjacent  premises,  posi- 
tively state  that  Black-and-Tans  or  Auxiliary  Police,  or  both,  were  the 
incendiaries. 

"(3)  The  choice  of  places  which  were  set  on  fire  indicates  a  pre- 
conceived plan  of  destroying  the  whole  of  the  center  of  the  city. 

"(4)  An  ambush  occurred,  as  reported,  at  Dillon's  Cross,  on  the 
outskirts  of  the  town,  and  a  number  of  Cadets  were  killed  or  wounded. 

"The  Commissioners  sought  an  interview  with  the  Cork  military 
authorities,  in  order  to  obtain  official  information  relating  to  the  am- 
bush and  the  fires,  but  owing  to  the  absence  of  responsible  officers  at 
the  time,  they  were,  unfortunately,  unable  to  obtain  a  statement.1 

"The  joint  meeting  unanimously  decided  that  the  Commission  should 
wait  upon  the  Prime  Minister  to  urge  that  a  further  effort  be  made  to 
bring  about  a  truce  in  Ireland  with  a  view  to  negotiations  being  held 
between  representatives  of  the  Government  and  of  the  elected  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Irish  people,  for  a  permanent  settlement  of  the  con- 
stitutional question." 

1  For  summary  of  evidence  taken  by  British  Labor  Commission  establish- 
ing guilt  of  Crown  forces  in  burning  Cork,  see  Labor  Commission's 
Report  (Jan.,  1921),  pp.  74-76. 


839 

LABOR     COMMISSION     DEMANDS     IMPARTIAL 
INQUIRY  INTO  BURNING  OF  CORK 

The  Witness:  That  was  followed  by  a  further  message  from  the 
English  Labor  Commission: 

"At  a  special  meeting  of  the  Labor  Party  in  London  today  a  tele- 
gram to  the  following  effect  from  the  Labor  Commission  at  present  in 
Ireland  was  read  to  the  meeting: 

"  'Statements  made  by  Chief  Secretary  in  the  House  of  Commons 
concerning  burning  of  Cork  are  greatly  inaccurate.  Parliamentary 
members  of  Labor  Commission  who  visited  Cork  yesterday  are  con- 
vinced that  the  fires  were  the  work  of  Crown  forces.  The  suggestion 
that  the  fire  spread  from  Patrick  Street  across  the  river  to  the  City 
Hall,  a  distance  of  several  hundred  yards,  cannot  be  entertained  by 
anyone  knowing  the  topography  of  Cork.  We  stand  by  our  statements 
regarding  the  fire  in  Cork,  and  can,  if  the  safety  of  witnesses  is  guar- 
anteed, procure  reliable  evidence  on  the  subject.  We  therefore  demand 
independent  inquiries  into  the  recent  incidents  in  Cork.  If  the  Gov- 
ernment refuse,  the  British  public  will  form  its  own  conclusions.' 

"In  view  of  the  statement  contained  in  this  message,  it  was  decided 
to  send  a  resolution  to  the  Prime  Minister  asking  that  an  independent 
and  searching  judicial  inquiry  be  made  immediately  into  the  occur- 
rences at  Cork  on  Saturday  last." 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:    From  what  paper  are  you   reading?     A. 
From  the  Cork  Examiner. 
Q.     Of  what  date? 

CORK    CORPORATION    REPUDIATES    SUGGESTION 
THAT  CITY  WAS  BURNED  BY  ITS  CITIZENS 

A.  December  24th.  That  demand  for  an  inquiry  was  also  made 
by  the  Cork  Corporation  on  that  date,  the  Monday  following  the 
fire. 

Q.  That  is  the  body  over  which  you  preside?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The 
following  wire  was  sent  by  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork  and  Messrs. 
Walsh  and  DeReiste,  members  of  Parliament,  to  Sir  H.  Greenwood, 
Lord  Robert  Cecil,  and  Messrs.  Asquith,  Henderson,  and  Commander 
Kenworthy : 

"On  behalf  of  the  whole  citizens,  we  absolutely  and  most  emphati- 
cally repudiate  the  vile  suggestion  that  Cork  City  was  burned  by  any 
section  of  the  citizens.  In  the  name  of  truth,  justice,  and  civilization, 
we  demand  an  impartial  civilian  inquiry  into  the  circumstances  of  the 
city's  destruction.  We  are  quite  willing  to  submit  evidence  before  any 
international  tribunal,  or  even  a  tribunal  of  Englishmen  like  Bentinck 
Henderson,  Kenworthy,  and  Cecil." 

CORK  CHAMBER  OF  COMMERCE  DEMANDS 
INVESTIGATION 

That  demand  for  an  impartial  inquiry  was  supported  by  the  Cork 
Chamber  of  Commerce,  which,  as  I  told  you  a  short  time  ago,  had 
already  wired  to  the  British  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland  and  had 
asked  for  protection  for  their  property.    Up  to  then  the  demand  for 


840 

protection  had  only  resulted  in  increasing  the  incendiarism.     And 
they  sent  the  following  wire: 

"The  Cork  Incorporated  Chamber  of  Commerce  and  Shipping  ex- 
press their  astonishment  at  the  statements  made  by  you  in  the  House 
of  Commons  with  reference  to  the  destruction  in  Cork.  We  demand 
that,  as  Chief  Secretary,  you  make  personal  investigation  on  the  spot 
of  the  true  facts,  when  incontrovertible  evidence  will  be  placed  before 
you;  and  that  a  judicial  commission  of  inquiry  be  set  up  without  delay. 
We  claim  that  all  damage  be  made  good  out  of  Government  funds. 
The  Chamber  begs  to  draw  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  on  Novem- 
ber 29th  they  wired  you  with  reference  to  incendiary  fires  occurring  in 
Cork  and  requested  immediate  protection  for  citizens'  property,  to 
which  telegram  no  reply  was  made  by  you. 

(Signed)     "Danckert,  Honorable  Secretary." 

PEOPLE  DEPRIVED  OF  EMPLOYMENT,  RENDERED 
HOMELESS  AND  TERRIFIED 

The  Witness:  That  was  also  adopted  by  the  Cork  Harbor  Board, 
on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Benjamin  Hicks,  one  of  the  Unionist  members 
of  the  Board;  and  by  the  Cork  Employers'  Federation.     (Reading)  : 

"Cork  Employers'  Federation  at  a  meeting  on  Tuesday  called  the 
attention  of  the  Government  to  the  effects  of  Saturday  night's  and 
Sunday  morning's  conflagrations  involving  destruction  of  an  enormous 
amount  of  valuable  property,  the  throwing  out  of  employment  of  thou- 
sands of  persons,  rendering  large  numbers  homeless,  and  the  keeping 
of  the  inhabitants  in  an  abject  state  or  terror.  They  demanded  _  an 
immediate  and  searching  inquiry  into  the  circumstances  by  an  im- 
partial tribunal." 

ONLY  RESTRICTED  MILITARY  INQUIRY  HELD 

The  Witness:  Despite  all  that,  the  only  inquiry  ordered  by  the 
British  Government  was  an  inquiry  to  be  held  and  presided  over  by 
Major  General  Strickland,  in  Cork,  who  was  the  officer  commanding 
in  Cork.  He  communicated  the  fact  that  he  intended  to  hold  an 
inquiry,  as  follows: 

"Major  General  Sir  E.  P.  Strickland,  commanding  6th  Division, 
directs  me  to  inform  you  that  an  inquiry  will  be  held  at  these  head- 
quarters, on  Saturday,  December  18,  in  connection  with  the  burning 
and  looting  of  property  in  Cork  City  on  the  nights  of  the  11th— 12th 
instants.  All  persons  willing  to  give  evidence  in  this  case,  and  in  a 
position  to  do  so,  arc  requested  to  communicate  with  these  headquar- 
ters as  early  as  possible.  Name  of  witness  will  not  be  published  in 
the  press. 

(Signed):     "C.  J.  O'Kelly,  Captain, 
"Attached  General  Staff  6th  Division, 

"Headquarters  6th  Division,  Cork." 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Is  that  Kelly  the  same  one  we  heard  about 
yesterday?  A.  I  would  not  be  surprised  if  it  was.  I  do  not  know 
the  initials. 

Q.  He  was  a  captain  yesterday.  A.  This  is  also  Captain  Kelly, 
and  very  probably  he  is  the  same  man.     (Reading)  : 


841 

REPRESENTATIVES  OF  PRESS  AND  PUBLIC  BODIES 
DEBARRED  FROM  "PRIVATE"  MILITARY  INQUIRY 

"At  the  library,  Victoria  Barracks,  Saturday  morning,  a  military 
court  of  inquiry  assembled  for  the  purpose  of  "hearing  evidence  as  to 
the  extent  of  the  damage  done  by  the  incendiary  tires  which  demol- 
ished a  large  portion  of  the  business  property  in  Cork.  It  was  the 
intention  of  the  Cork  Incorporated  Chamber  of  Commerce  and  Ship- 
ping, and  Cork  Employers'  Federation,  to  be  represented  by  Mr.  M. 
Healy,  Solicitor,  but  information  was  conveyed  to  Mr.  Healy  by  the 
military  authorities  that  lawyers  would  not  be  admitted  to  the  in- 
quiry, and  that  any  witnesses  to  be  examined  would  only  be  allowed 
into  the  inquiry  one  by  one.  Under  those  circumstances  the  bodies 
mentioned  were  not  professionally  represented.  When  representatives 
of  the  press  put  in  an  appearance,  they  were  informed  by  the  Brigade 
Major  that  the  inquiry  was  private  and  not  open  to  press  representa- 
tives. These  representatives  then  left.  As  far  as  could  be  seen,  no 
civilian  witnesses  were  present  at  the  appointed  hour." 

BRITISH  CABINET  SUPPRESSES  STRICKLAND 
REPORT 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  I  want  to  ask  you.  is  it  not  a  fact  that  General 
Strickland  has  sent  a  report  to  the  Cabinet?  The  report  certainly 
has  not  appeared.  The  only  thing  I  have  read  of  it  was  an  intima- 
tion in  the  press  that  it  never  will  appear  in  full,  the  reason  given 
being, — and  I  thought  it  rather  ingenious, — first  of  all,  that  the 
names  of  certain  witnesses  might  not  be  published,  inasmuch  as  they 
had  been  given  the  guarantee  that  they  would  not  be  published,  and 
the  evidence  if  given  would  indicate  their  identity,  so  that  the  names 
could  not  be  given  owing  to  their  promise,  and  their  evidence  could 
not  be  given  lest  their  names  be  indirectly  diselosed.  It  was  inti- 
mated that  there  may  be  an  abridged  version  of  the  report  published, 
but  even  that  much  was  not  stated  definitely.  But  one  definite  state- 
ment was  that  the  report  as  sent  will  not  be  published.     A.     Yes. 

SIR  HAMAR  GREENWOOD  FALSELY  DENIES  GUILT 
OF  CROWN  FORCES 

Q.  The  Chairman :  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  right  after  the  burning  took 
place,  did  not  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  announce  in  Parliament  that 
there  was  no  evidence  that  this  burning  was  due  to  any  of  the  Crown 
forces?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  That  statement  of  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  was  it  true  or  false? 
A.     Well,  that  certainly  is  false,  absolutely. 

Q.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  is  there  any  reason  that  you  know  of  why 
the  fire  only  occurred  on  one  side  of  Patrick  Street,  if  it  was  started 
in  a  general  attempt  to  set  fire  to  Cork?  A.  No,  sir,  exeept  1  lake 
it  that  these  men  who  caused  the  fire  wanted  not  so  much  isolated 
fires  throughout  the  city, — that  had  been  the  method  until  then ;  but 
they  wanted  to  wipe  out  one  particular  portion  of  the  city,  and  they 


842 

have  done  that  effectively.  The  whole  area,  covering  roughly  a 
matter  of,  say,  one  square  mile,  is  absolutely  leveled. 

Q.  There  were,  however,  large  buildings  on  the  other  side  of 
Patrick  Street,  were  there  not,  trade  buildings?  A.  Yes,  there  were. 
Well,  the  only  reason  I  can  think  of  is  that  in  doing  what  they  were 
doing,  and  in  wiping  out  one  mile  square  of  the  city,  they  thought 
that  they  were  doing  quite  sufficient  for  one  night;  and  it  is  quite 
possible  that  they  may  yet  return  to  the  other  side. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  you  know  whether  Sir  Hamar 
Greenwood,  or  any  of  those  other  authorities,  went  to  school  in  Ger- 
many, or  otherwise  derived  from  such  sources  this  ingenuity  of  eva- 
sion of  responsibility?  A.  No,  sir;  but  certainly  one  thing  about 
which  opinion  is  unanimous  in  regard  to  them  is  admiration  for  their 
ability  in  that  direction. 

FIRE  CAUSES  UNEMPLOYMENT  AND 
REVENUE  LOSS 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Did  not  that  fire  in  Cork  throw  a  great  many 
persons  out  of  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  has  thrown,  roughly, 
3,000  persons  out  of  employment.  Incidentally,  so  far  as  we  in  the 
city  are  concerned,  so  far  as  the  municipality  is  concerned,  it  will 
be  a  severe  blow,  because  it  means  that  at  a  time  when  we  will  need 
all  our  resources  to  enable  us  to  pull  through,  there  will  be  a  loss 
very  probably  of  somewhere  between  eight  and  ten  thousand  pounds 
annually,— about  $50,000. 

REASONS  FOR  BURNING  PUBLIC  BUILDINGS  AND 
STORES 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  the  destruction  of  these  public  buildings 
was  done  in  an  effort  to  destroy  all  vestige  of  civil  authority  and 
government  in  the  city?     A.     Undoubtedly. 

Q.  These  stores  picked  out,  you  say,  were  amongst  the  largest 
department  stores  in  Cork.  Was  not  one  reason  why  these  places 
were  picked  out  because  the  looting  could  be  done  easier  by  the  sol- 
diers of  the  Crown  forces?     A.     Certainly,  that  is  it. 

Chairman  Wood:  Of  course,  we  are  getting  only  the  opinion  of 
one  individual.  I  mean  that  he  does  not  produce  any  evidence  to 
support  that,  except  his  own  opinion  from  the  general  background. 

Mr.  Doyle:  Except  this,  that  he  is  the  Lord  Mayor  of  the  city 
which  was  destroyed,  and  certainly  no  one  would  know  more  than 
he,  and  probably  no  one  is  better  fitted  to  form  an  opinion  than 
he  is. 

CORK  RELIEF  COMMITTEE  APPOINTED 
Q.     Chairman  Wood:    May  I  ask  this,  in  regard  to  relief  which 
is  being  administered  in  Cork?     As  a  result  of  this  unemployment 


843 

there  must,  one  would  suppose,  be  considerable  suffering.  Is  not 
that  so?  A.  Yes.  On  this  Monday  to  which  I  referred,  the  Mon- 
day following  the  fire,  one  of  the  first  things  we  did  at  the  special 
meeting  of  the  Corporation  which  we  held  on  that  morning  was  to 
appoint  a  relief  committee.  The  relief  committee  that  we  outlined 
comprised  representatives  of  all  the  public  boards,  the  Corporation, 
the  Harbor  Board,  the  Chamber  of  Commerce,  and  so  on,  and  the 
labor  organizations. 

Q.  Representatives  of  all  parties  and  religious  affiliations  were 
on  that?  A.  Yes,  all  parties,  all  creeds  and  classes,  who  were  to 
take  charge  in  the  first  place,  of  course,  of  the  collection  of  relief, 
and  secondly,  of  the  distribution  of  relief. 

Q.  What  is  the  official  name  of  that  committee,  and  its  address, 
if  anybody  wanted  to  send  something  to  it?  A.  The  Cork  Relief 
Committee,  and  the  Harbor  Board  Office  would  be  the  address,  or 
the  Court  House.  Cork. 

Q.     The  Harbor  Board  offices  were  not  destroyed,  then?     A.    No. 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you,  do  these  Crown  forces  in  Ireland  show  any 
particular  animosity  toward  lawyers?  A.  I  cannot  say  I  have 
noticed  they  do. 

Q.     Not  more  than  the  rest  of  the  community?     A.    No,  sir. 

FIRE  CREATES  SERIOUS  PROBLEMS  FOR  CITY 

The  two  points  that  I  would  like  to  make  with  regard  to  the  fire, 
so  far  as  the  city  administration  is  concerned,  are,  first,  the  point  I 
have  just  stated, — the  fire,  apart  from  the  loss  to  the  city,  the  loss 
of  ordinary  commercial  life  and  employment,  means  a  loss  in  the 
administration  of  affairs  of  $50,000  in  administration,  and  makes 
the  administration  more  difficult.  There  is  also  the  question  of  re- 
building, which  we  must  face  some  day.  And  there  is  added,  of 
course,  the  ordinary  difficulties  of  present  day  prices  and  labor  itself. 
Then  there  is  the  feeling  of  insecurity,  and  then  the  difficulty  as  to 
whether  these  men  who  own  the  different  buildings, — that  is,  the 
capitalists,  will  see  their  way  clear,  under  existing  conditions,  to  re- 
build when  they  have  no  sense  of  security,  and  when  they  do  not 
know  but  that  within  a  week  of  the  rebuilding  their  premises  will  be 
again  destroyed. 

ACUTE  HOUSING  SHORTAGE  IN  CORK 

Q.  Was  there  a  housing  shortage  in  Cork  before  this  happened? 
A.     Very  acute. 

Q.  Very  crowded  conditions?  A.  Yes.  I  think  that  condition 
is  general  in  Ireland.  I  know  it  is  acute  in  Dublin,  and  very  acute 
in  Cork.  And  even  before  this  occurred,  one  of  the  very  great  diffi- 
culties was  to  see  a  way  of  relieving  the  conditions  in  housing,  owing 


844 

to  all  grants  from  the  British  Government  being  withdrawn.  Before 
the  break  with  the  British  Government  took  place,  we  had  under  way 
a  scheme  which  had  their  approval.  We  had  arranged  for  a  loan 
as  a  starter,  to  be  supplemented  by  others,  of  £100,000;  the  con- 
dition attaching  to  the  loan  being  the  condition  which  is  the  ordinary 
one  between  local  boards  in  Ireland  and  the  British  Government, 
that  we  would  provide  the  site  and  the  plans,  and  that  they  should 
approve  of  the  plans  before  the  scheme  was  adopted.  We  had  in 
Cork  and  in  its  vicinity  four  areas  decided  on,  and  in  two  of  these 
areas  we  had  the  plans  all  arranged  and  adopted  by  the  English 
Local  Government  Board.  In  the  other  two,  the  plans  had  been  all 
but  completed.  Everything,  in  fact,  had  been  settled  at  the  time 
when  the  break  took  place  between  the  English  Local  Government 
Board  and  the  local  authorities.  And  where  we  expected  to  start 
building  on  that  site,  the  whole  scheme  toppled,  the  money  was  with- 
held, and  the  scheme  fell  through;  and  we  have  been  able  to  do 
nothing  since  then.  The  housing  situation  in  Cork  has  been  acute 
for  a  number  of  years,  and  has  been  much  accentuated  from  the  fact 
that  during  the  war  there  has  been  no  building. 

REPUBLICAN  GOVERNMENT  ABLE  TO  PROVIDE 
RELIEF  IF  UNHAMPERED 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Supposing  that  conditions  of  peace 
were  restored  in  Ireland  and  that  the  Republican  Government  was 
functioning  without  external  interests,  would  the  Republican  Gov- 
ernment be  in  the  economic  position  to  aid  you  in  such  schemes  of 
housing  for  the  relief  of  Cork  as  you  have  now  briefly,  mentioned  ? 
A.  O,  undoubtedly,  sir.  Once  the  Republican  Government  has  the 
control  of  the  country  and  of  the  powers  of  taxation  of  the  country, 
there  is  no  question  on  earth  about  it  but  that  the  Republican  Gov- 
ernment would  be  able  to  do  it,  because  the  money  which  at  present 
goes  to  swell  the  British  Exchequer  from  Ireland  would,  of  course, 
be  available  for  local  development. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  May  I  return  to  the  relief  proposition? 
Would  it  in  your  opinion  be  advisable  to  use  demountable  houses, 
such  as  various  organizations  put  up  in  the  devastated  areas  of 
France?  Would  they  be  helpful  if  sent  over  from  America  to  Cork 
and  various  places  in  Ireland; — called  temporary  huts?  A.  Frame 
huts? 

Q.     Yes.     A.     I  certainly  think  they  would.     Yes,  unquestionably. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Could  land  be  provided  for  such 
temporary  huts?     A.     O,  yes,  there  is  no  difficulty  about  that. 

Well,  gentlemen,  unless  there  is  something  you  wish  to  ask  me,  I 
think  I  am  about  through.  I  have  to  thank  you  for  the  courteous 
manner  in  which  you  have  heard  me,  and  for  the  freedom  with  which 


845 

you  have  allowed  me  to  deal  with  the  matter  in  my  own  order,  and 
to  arrange  it  in  my  own  way. 

I  do  not  know  if  it  is  a  customary  thing  in  your  proceedings,  sir, 
but  if  so.  I  think  there  are  just  a  few  things  in  the  way  of  general 
remarks,  or  a  general  summing  up,  that  I  should  like  to  say. 

Commissioner  Wood :  Commissioner  Newman  wants  to  ask  you  a 
few  questions  about  the  Home  Rule  Bill. 

EFFECT  OF  NEW  HOME  RULE  BILL 

Q.  Commissioner  Newman:  What  is  the  situation  now  in  both 
north  and  south  Ireland  as  a  result  of  the  passage  of  this  new  Home 
Rule  Bill?  A.  I  do  not  think  the  mere  passing  of  the  Home  Rule 
Bill  makes  any  change  in  Ireland.  The  only  question  of  a  change 
would  be  should  the  British  Government  decide  to  enforce  the  Act. 
Then  it  is  pretty  well  near  to  impossible  to  forecast  what  change  it 
will  make,  inasmuch  as  there  is  no  seeing  clearly  in  what  way,  along 
what  lines,  or  to  what  extent  the  British  Government  will  go  in  forc- 
ing a  system  of  government  on  the  country  which  the  country  em- 
phatically does  not  want. 

Q.  That  act  to  become  effective  must  be  supplemented  by  inde- 
pendent acts  in  Ireland  by  the  Irish  people,  must  it  not?  A.  I 
should  certainly  think,  to  become  effective,  it  would  need  to  be  sup- 
plemented by  at  least  the  good  will  of  the  Irish  people;  or  at  all 
events  the  willing  acceptance  of  the  Irish  people.  Of  course,  I  take 
it  that  the  circumstances  are  entirely  unprecedented,  where  the  for- 
eign government  is  deciding  a  system  of  government  where  the  ma- 
jority of  the  people  in  the  country  have  said,  "We  do  not  want  it 
and  we  will  not  have  it."  But  when  it  comes  to  forecasting  how 
exactly  things  are  going  to  develop  if  the  Government  seeks  to  im- 
pose it  by  force,  as  I  assume  they  must,  that  is  one  of  the  things 
about  which  I  would  be  afraid  to  give  anything  in  the  nature  of  an 
expression  of  an  opinion. 

Q.  The  newspaper  reports  that  we  have  received  here  indicate 
that  in  the  north  of  Ireland  this  may  be  accepted.  Do  you  under- 
stand that  is  correct,  that  they  will  set  up  their  parliament  under 
this  Act  in  the  north  of  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  I  take  it  that  is  quite 
possible,  in  the  north.  There  would,  of  course,  be  objections  up 
there  to  it  by  sections  of  the  people. 

Q.  Yes,  certainly.  A.  But  it  is  possible,  of  course,  that  a  par- 
liament in  the  north  might  be  established;  that  is  conceivable.  But 
I  do  not  know  that  I  can  picture  any  circumstances  under  which  any 
other  parliament  under  the  Act  or  bill  could  be  got  together. 

PROGRESS  OF  REPUBLICANISM  IN  BELFAST 
Q.     Chairman  Wood:    We  have  had  some  evidence  as  to  the  prog- 
ress of  the  Sinn  Fein  movement  in  Belfast  itself,  and  the  probability 


846 

that  the  minority  as  it  exists  is  rapidly  enlarging.  Have  you  any 
information  as  to  that  which  you  would  care  to  give  us,  or  do  you 
know  anything  about  it?  A.  I  do  not  think  I  have  anything  that 
would  be  of  use  to  you  officially,  inasmuch  as  I  am  not  connected 
with  the  north.  Of  course  I  know  from  personal  information,  from 
friends  and  otherwise,  that  that  is  correct,  that  Republicanism  is 
securing  an  increased  hold  in  the  north,  and  that  not  only  is  Re- 
publicanism as  such  securing  a  hold,  but,  what  in  its  own  way  is 
more  important,  that  the  bigotry  in  the  north,  which  I  think  it  has 
been  pretty  generally  admitted  was  largely  due  to  ignorance  on  the 
part  of  the  working  classes,  is  being  dispelled,  and  that  being  so, 
of  course  it  is  only  a  matter  of  time  when  the  whole  question  in  the 
north  rights  itself. 

SOUTHERN  IRELAND  SOLIDLY  AGAINST  HOME 
RULE  BILL 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Is  there  to  any  extent  any  sentiment  in  the 
south  of  Ireland  which  is  favorable  toward  acceptance  of  this  Home 
Rule  Bill  ?  A.  No,  sir,  I  can  say  without  doubt  there  is  not.  Of 
course  there  are  Unionists  scattered  all  over  the  south,  but  as  for 
any  body  of  opinion,  there  is  none. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Are  the  Unionists  in  the  south  united 
really  in  asking  for  this  Home  Rule  Bill,  or  do  they  feel  that  on  ac- 
count of  the  very  distinct  opposition  of  the  majority  of  the  people 
that  it  will  not  work,  and  so  they  are  not  for  it?     A.     That  is  it. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  There  is  one  other  point  about  which  I 
would  like  to  ask  you.  Of  course  I  understand,  or  I  assume,  fhat 
the  fundamental  reason  for  there  being  no  sentiment  for  the  accept- 
ance of  this  measure  is  the  desire  for  complete  independence  on  the 
part  of  the  people?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Does  it  extend  further  than  that?  Are  there  specific  objec- 
tions to  the  provisions  of  this  particular  act?  A.  There  are  not  at 
the  moment,  inasmuch  as  the  Act  as  such  is  not  dealt  with  in  the 
critical  way  in  which  an  Act  would  be  dealt  with  which  a  country 
took  seriously.  But  the  Act,  if  it  were  being  seriously  considered 
by  the  country,  would  of  course  be  criticized.  But  at  the  moment 
it  is  not.  The  people  take  no  interest  whatever  in  the  Act,  have  not 
studied  it,  do  not  worry  about  it.  They  simply  say,  "We  do  not 
want  it."  And  in  that  way  the  criticisms  which,  considered  as  an 
Act,  it  is  open  to,  are  not  general. 

Q.  Have  you  any  personal  opinions  about  the  provisions  of  the 
Act  that  you  would  express  to  us,  along  those  lines?  A.  No,  I  do 
not  think  that  I  have,  because  apart  from  the  Republican  viewpoint, 
the  mere  fact  that  it  embraces  the  partition,  that  alone  must  inevi- 
tably be  done  away  with. 


847 

PRESENT  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND  WORST  SINCE 
CROMWELL'S  REGIME 

Q.  Mr.  Doyle:  Before  you  conclude,  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  I  would 
like  to  ask  you,  in  connection  with  the  outrages,  for  a  general  com- 
parison. You  are  familiar,  of  course,  with  Irish  history  in  the  last 
two  hundred  years.  Do  you  know  of  any  condition  in  Ireland  quite 
as  bad  as  the  present  condition  over  there?     A.     No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  In  other  words,  therefore,  you  might  go  back  to  the  days  of 
Oliver  Cromwell  if  you  would  find  a  comparison  between  the  British 
outrages  in  Ireland  today  with  those  of  that  century.  Is  that  cor- 
rect?    A.     That  is  so. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  those  outrages  of  Cromwell  and  his  period 
have  been  condemned  often  by  the  most  staunch  Unionists  of  today, 
apologizing  for  conditions  in  Ireland,  stating  that  while  the  British 
have  not  governed  Ireland  well  in  the  past,  yet  things  are  quite  dif- 
ferent today?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  things  have  been  condemned  in  the  past  by 
these  people  which  are  even  worse  today?     A.     Yes,  that  is  tine. 

Major  Newman:  I  might  refer  counsel  to  the  Encyclopedia  Brit- 
tanica  for  a  description  of  Cromwell's  regime. 

SCHOOLS  NOT  ATTACKED 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  May  I  ask,  in  regard  to  the  schoolhouses 
in  Cork,  were  any  destroyed  to  affect  the  educational  situation  there? 
A.     No,  I  do  not  know  of  any  schools  that  have  been  attacked. 

Q.  I  thought  perhaps  in  these  conflagrations  there  might  have 
been  some.  A.  No.  There  have  been  some  schools  that  are  known 
as  "Irish  summer  colleges."  These  have  been  destroyed  in  two 
cases.  These  are  colleges  where  a  summer  course  of  lectures  are 
given,  principally  to  school  teachers  and  to  anybody  else  who  wishes 
to  secure  a  diploma  for  teaching.  These  have  been  attacked;  but 
the  schools  ordinarily,  I  do  not  recall  any  case  where  these  have 
been  so  far  attacked. 

DEVASTATION  WORST  IN  MARTIAL  LAW  ZONE 

Q.  You  testified  to  the  number  of  towns,  some  ninety-odd,  that 
have  been  either  burned  or  shot  up  or  something  of  the  kind.  What 
proportion  of  those  towns  are  outside  of  -the  zone  now  in  which  mar- 
tial law  has  been  declared?  A.  That  I  could  not  say,  unless  I  went 
through  and  tabulated  the  whole  list. 

Q.  In  a  general  way,  martial  law  has  been  declared  in  the  west 
and  southwest?     A.     0,  yes. 

Q.     These  really  go  outside  of  that?     A.    Yes. 

Q.     The  proportion  is  larger,  presumably,  in  that  zone?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     That  includes  Tipperary  and  Clare?    A.     Generally  the  south, 


848 

DESTRUCTION  IN  QUEENSTOWN 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  condition  of 
Queenstown  now?    A.    Yes. 

Q.     Have  you  been  there?     A.     0,  yes,  repeatedly. 

Q.  Has  that  been  shot  up?  A.  It  has,  but  not  on  very  whole- 
sale lines.     All  along  the  west  beach  has  been  smashed. 

Q.  I  am  not  speaking  now  of  murders  or  fires,  but  the  houses  in 
Queenstown.    A.    Yes,  they  have  been  smashed. 

Q.     Have  you  been  over  the  town  and  seen  it  yourself?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  Commission  an  estimate  of  what  proportion 
of  the  houses  in  Queenstown  have  had  their  doors  or  windows 
broken?  A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  could  give  you  an  estimate  like 
that,  inasmuch  as  Queenstown,  of  course,  is  a  very  scattered  town 
straggling  all  over  the  hills. 

Q.  What  is  the  population  of  it?  A.  It  has  a  population  of 
about  five  or  six  thousand.  Generally  the  houses  on  the  quay  front 
have  been  smashed,  and  also  all  the  business  section. 

IRELAND'S  POSITION  BEFORE  THE  WORLD 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  Commission  is  very  appreciative  of 
your  having  come  before  us.  I  understand  you  have  some  general 
remarks  which  you  wish  to  make.  A.  I  have  just  a  few  remarks 
in  the  nature  of  a  summing  up  of  the  evidence  generally.  I  think, 
gentlemen,  that  it  would  be  well  that,  having  come  here  and  having 
testified  as  to  conditions  obtaining  in  Ireland,  that  that  be  supple- 
mented by  giving  you  what  is  Ireland's  view  at  the  moment:  first 
of  all,  of  her  own  position;  and  secondly,  what  she  thinks  she  has  a 
right  to  expect  from  the  other  free  nations  of  the  world,  and  espe- 
cially from  America;  and  finally,  her  position  in  the  event  of  that 
help  being  refused.     It  will  not  take  very  long. 

IRELAND  SEEKS  RIGHT  OF  SELF-DETERMINATION 

Ireland  has  declared  a  desire  to  be  free  in  every  legitimate  way 
in  which  an  oppressed  country  could  do  it,  through  the  ballot  box. 
She  has  elected  her  Republican  parliament,  her  Republican  councils, 
who  function  to  carry  on  the  administration  of  the  country.  The 
men  engaged  in  that  movement  have  not  been  dreamers,  as  has  often 
been  alleged.  They  are  men  who  are  at  least  as  keen,  and  probably 
much  more  so,  about  the  importance  of  commercial  advancement  and 
commercial  progress  than  any  recent  generation,  at  all  events  in  Ire- 
land. These  men  have  worked  along  these  lines,  even  under  the 
difficulties  of  the  state  of  unrest  which  obtains  in  the  country;  and 
their  efforts,  in  spite  of  these  difficulties,  have  been  to  a  large  extent 
crowned  with  success, — a  success  which  is  only  an  indication  of  the 
state  of  things  that  would  obtain  were  they  free  to  work  entirely  on 


849 

different  lines,  and  to  devote  their  energies  and  their  abilities  solely 
to  that  purpose. 

I  have  described  for  yon  how  the  people  are  suffering;,  what  their 
record  is,  what  their  daily  life  in  Ireland  is  at  present;  and  1  put  it 
to  yon.  gentlemen,  and  through  you  to  the  American  people,  that 
that  suffering  is  being  entailed  and  is  being  endured  by  the  Irish 
people  because  of  their  determination  to  seek  the  right  to  decide  for 
themselves  their  own  form  of  government. 

In  Ireland  the  term  "■Republican'''  is  used,  as  it  is  used  here  in 
referring  to  Ireland,  in  order  to  convey  a  definite  and  a  concrete 
conception  of  liberty,  not  definitely  that  a  Republican,  as  such,  or 
any  other  particular  form  of  government  has  been  decided  on  for 
the  country,  or  is  being  insisted  on  for  the  country.  The  Republican 
parliament  and  the  Republican  party  ask  merely  for,  and  will  be 
perfectly  satisfied  if  they  secure,  the  right  of  self-determination. 
They  will  be  satisfied  if  that  question  is  allowed  to  be  decided  by 
the  people  of  Ireland  themselves,  be  their  verdict  what  it  may,  be 
the  form  of  government  which  they  decide  on  for  themselves  what 
it  may. 

UNANIMITY  OF  IRISH  PEOPLE  FOR  FREEDOM 

In  Ireland  there  is  at  least  as  much  if  not  more  unanimity  on  this 
question  of  freedom  than  there  is  in  any  other  country  in  the  world, 
or  than  there  was  in  any  other  country  in  the  world  which  struggled 
to  be  free.  Obviously,  clearly  at  no  time  in  history  was  it  possible 
to  secure,  never  will  it  be  possible  to  secure,  and  it  is  a  good  thing 
that  it  is  so.  a  nation  where  every  individual  of  that  nation  has  his 
thoughts  and  has  his  mind  running  along  the  same  lines  as  every 
other  individual  in  that  nation.  Never,  obviously,  will  a  nation  be 
found  where  there  is  absolute,  thorough,  and  complete  unanimity 
from  the  north  and  south,  east  and  west.  The  most  that  one  can 
expect  is  that  a  large  majority  of  the  people  of  the  country  are 
unanimous.  That  state  of  affairs  obtains  in  Ireland,  obtains  to  a 
very  large  extent.  The  fact  that  there  are  a  very  small  number  of 
people  in  one  corner  of  Ireland  does  not  in  any  way  imply  that  the 
country,  spoken  of  as  a  country  and  as  a  nation,  is  not  unanimous 
in  seeking  freedom. 

THE  NEW  NATIONAL  CONSCIOUSNESS 

The  people  in  Ireland  have  also,  during  recent  years  while  the 
struggle  for  freedom  has  been  going  on,  awakened  to  the  fact  that 
their  culture,  their  mentality,  just  as  their  race  characteristics,  are 
entirely  different  from  those  in  England,  and  that  is  the  aspect  of 
the  case  which  I  put  to  you  gentlemen.  Parliament  has  awakened 
to  the  fact  that  through  a  very,  very  clever  system  of  education,  so- 


850 

called,  the  Irish  had  been  brought  to  the  point,  very  recently,  where 
they  had  almost  lost  all  sense  of  race  consciousness,  where  all  that 
was  best,  inasmuch  as  all  that  was  distinctive  of  them  as  a  race,  had 
been  submerged,  and  where  they  were  being  modeled  into  a  poor 
imitation  of  English  men  and  women.  All  that  is  being  changed, 
and  contemporaneously  with  the  fight  for  freedom  there  is  the  effort 
for  reconstruction  of  the  Irish  idealism  of  our  race.  The  Irish  lan- 
guage, which,  with  all  else  that  typified  our  individuality,  had  been 
crushed,  is  now  more  generally  spoken  throughout  Ireland  than  for 
generations  past.  Every  school  in  Ireland,  practically  without  ex- 
ception, teaches  the  Irish  language.  The  children  in  Ireland  today 
know  their  own  language  and  are  proud  of  their  own  language. 
They  realize  exactly  what  it  is  that  makes  that  language  so  important 
and  so  dear  to  them. 

ENGLAND'S  FALSE  PRETENSE  OF  SELF- 
DETERMINATION 

During  the  war  England,  and  not  only  England  but  all  the  other 
nations  that  fought  in  that  war,  including  America,  were  very,  very 
loud  in  their  declarations  that  the  war  was  being  waged  for  the 
right  of  self-determination.  That  principle  awakened  hopes  in  every 
country  where  freedom  was  being  denied.  It  certainly  awakened 
hopes  in  Ireland,  and  the  Irish  people  looked  forward  to  freedom 
without  much  delay.  The  war  ended,  and  England  now  very  clearly 
shows  by  her  conduct  in  Ireland  that  that  pretense  of  self-determina- 
tion, that  pretense  of  fighting  for  the  rights  of  small  nations,  was 
the  merest  humbug,  the  merest  camouflage. 

WERE  AMERICA'S  WAR  AIMS  ALSO  INSINCERE? 
Before  leaving  you  today,  gentlemen,  I  do  not  think  it  is  in  any 
way  out  of  place  or  in  any  way  improper,  even  though  it  may  per- 
haps seem  harsh,  if  I  ask  you,  and  through  you  the  American  people, 
whether  we  in  Ireland  have  got  to  take  it  that  England  was  not  alone 
in  that  respect;  whether  Ireland  has  got  to  take  it  that  every  other 
nation  which  entered  the  war  ostensibly  for  that  same  reason,  and 
which  was  equally  responsible  for  awakening  these  hopes  in  Ireland 
and  other  subjugated  countries,  whether  the  position  is  the  same  in 
all  of  them,  and  whether  it  is  equally  admitted  all  around  that  that 
plea  was  the  merest  smoke  screen  and  humbug? 

IRELAND  WILL  FIGHT  TO  ANNIHILATION  FOR 
RIGHT  OF  SELF-DETERMINATION 

Even  should  that  be  so,  even  if  it  should  apply  to  America,  which 
itself  suffered  somewhat  along  the  lines  of  our  sufferings  such  as  I 


851 

have  been  describing  for  you,  and  which  itself  fought  the  same  fight 
that  we  are  waging,  and  fought  it  against  the  same  enemy;  if  it  be 
true  that  America  also  refuses  to  stand  by  her  declarations,  and  if 
Ireland  is  forced  back  on  herself,  forced  to  realize  that  no  help  is 
to  come  to  her  from  any  nation,  Ireland  is  placed  with  a  situation, 
on  the  one  hand,  which  will  show  her  as  making  a  fight,  after  all 
the  noisy  pretenses  of  the  great  and  free  powers  of  the  world,  as 
making  the  fight  alone,  on  her  own  small  island,  with  her  four  and  a 
half  millions  of  people,  against  this  great  and  powerful  Empire, — 
making  their  fight  for  self-determination,  which  it  was  alleged  was 
being  made  on  the  battlefields  of  France  and  Belgium.  While  that 
is  so,  she  will  also  be  faced  with  a  fight  which  would  seem  to  lead 
almost  with  certainty  to  annihilation. 

IRELAND'S  RIGHT  TO  AID  FROM  FREE  NATIONS 

What  I  wish  to  put  before  you,  gentlemen,  and  before  the  Ameri- 
can people,  is  that  we  have  a  perfect  right  to  expect  help  from  every 
free  nation  of  the  world,  not  only  because  of  the  justice  of  our  cause, 
but  also  because  no  nation,  especially  a  nation  which  has  been  gifted 
in  the  past  with  ability  and  genius,  can  give  of  its  best  to  the  world, 
to  the  advancement  and  progress  of  the  world  and  of  civilization  gen- 
erally, while  enslaved.  For  that  reason,  so  that  Irish  culture  might 
be  developed  freely  and  in  an  unhindered  manner,  and  that  Ireland 
might  give  of  her  best  for  the  advancement  of  the  world;  for  that, 
as  well  as  for  the  reason  of  the  absolute  justice  of  the  fight  for  her 
freedom, — if  despite  all  these  reasons  we  are  told  in  Ireland  that 
neither  America  nor  any  other  nation  is  going  to  raise  a  hand  to 
prevent  our  people  being  bled  to  death;  if  despite  all  that  we  say  to 
them,  through  you,  sirs,  and  the  other  powerful  peoples  who  made 
the  pretense  of  making  this  fight  for  self-determination,  you  now 
admit,  when  faced  with  a  concrete  case,  that  it  was  humbug,  then  we 
will'  make  the  fight,  and  in  our  case  it  will  not  be  humbug.  We 
will  continue  the  fight,  be  the  result  what  it  may.     (Applause.) 

I  again  thank  you  for  your  courtesy. 

COMMISSION  APPRECIATES  LORD  MAYOR'S 
TESTIMONY 

Mr.  Doyle:  As  the  Lord  Mayor  expects  to  be  in  the  country  for 
some  time  yet,  his  services  will  be  at  the  control  of  the  Commission 
at  any  time  at  all  that  he  may  be  needed  for  further  conference. 

Chairman  Wood:  Thank  you  very  much.  Mr.  Lord  Mayor,  the 
Commission  appreciates  very  much  your  coming  to  us,  and  the  very 
clear  and  dispassionate  way  in  which  you  have  produced  the  evi- 
dence. We  appreciate,  from  the  testimony  that  has  come  before  us, 
the  background  out  of  which  you  have  spoken,  and  we  feel   very 


852 

grateful  for  the  personal  inconvenience  that  you  have  suffered  in 
coming  to  us.  We  hope  if  there  is  anything  further  that  you  feel 
like  bringing  to  us  at  a  future  time,  that  you  will  feel  very  free  to 
ask  for  a  hearing,  and  we  will  be  glad  to  give  you  that  opportunity. 

The  Witness:  I  thank  you,  sir,  and  I  thank  you,  gentlemen  of  the 
Commission. 

Chairman  Wood:  We  appreciate,  of  course,  that  there  are  many 
subjects  upon  which  it  is  not  fair  to  interrogate  a  person  in  your 
position,  and  it  is  not  for  lack  of  interest  in  the  situation  that  you 
have  just  come  through  that  we  refrain  from  putting  to  you  any 
questions  in  regard  to  merely  interesting  incidents  of  your  recent 
life. 

We  will  adjourn  until  two-thirty  this  afternoon. 

(Adjournment  at  1  P.  M. ) 


Before  the  Commission  sitting  at  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Friday,  January  14,  1921. 

2:30  P.  M. 

Chairman  Wood:    The  Commission  will  please  be  in  order. 

Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly  (of  counsel)  :  I  will  call  to  the  stand  Mr. 
Thomas  Nolan.     (Mr.  Nolan  takes  the  witness  stand.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  THOMAS  NOLAN 

Q.  What  is  your  name?     A.     Thomas  Nolan. 

Q.  How  old  are  you,  Mr.  Nolan?     A.     Thirty-five  years. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?     A.     I  was  born  in  County  Clare. 

Q.  Where  have  you  lived  recently?     A.     In  Gal  way. 

Q.  What  was  your  business  in  Galway?  A.  I  was  in  ladies' 
and  gentlemen's  outfitting. 

Q.  When  did  you  go  to  Galway?     A.     In  about  1901. 

CONDITIONS  IN  GALWAY  PRIOR  TO  RAID 

Q.  What  were  the  conditions  in  Galway  prior  to  the  raid  on  the 
town  following  the  shooting  by  the  Black-and-Tans?  A.  It  was 
supposed  to  be  one  of  the  quietest  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Had  there  been,  as  far  as  you  now  recall,  any  attacks  on  the 
police  prior  to  that  night?  A.  There  was  one  attack,  but  it  did  not 
happen  in  the  city.  It  happened  somewhere  out  of  the  city.  Con- 
stable Foley  got  shot. 

Q.  Did  any  reprisals  follow  that?  A.  Yes,  sir.  They  went  out 
that  night  and  they  burned  down  the  house  belonging  to  Mrs.  Kane. 

Q.  Who  are  "they"?  A.  They  were  supposed  to  be  the  local 
police  from  Oranmore. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  they  Black-and-Tans  or  military?  A. 
They  were  supposed  to  be  the  local  police.     They  asked  if  her  son 


853 

was  home  that  night.  Well,  he  has  been  shot  since.  They  asked 
him  to  come  down.  They  said.  ''Come  down,  you  coward."  So 
they  burned  the  house, — burned  the  whole  place  to  the  ground  and 
tore  the  house  up  the  same  night. 

Q.     Major  Newman:     1  do  not  think  I  got  that  date. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  give  the  date  of  that?  A.  It  was  some- 
time in  August. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  was  not  going  into  these  affairs,  because  there  has 
been  testimony  of  several  witnesses  with  relation  to  earlier  events  in 
Galwav.  I  was  simply  laying  a  background  for  events  that  occurred 
later  in  Galway,  in  which  he  personally  participated.  There  has 
been  some  testimony.  Mr.  Chairman,  with  reference  to  the  shooting 
of  several  people  on  the  station  at  Galway  that  night,  after  they 
started  shooting  promiscuously.  There  is  just  one  incident  in  con- 
nection with  that  that  has  not  been  testified  to  by  an  eye-witness, — 
the  killing  of  James  Quirk. 

THE  MURDER  OF  JAMES  QUIRK 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  you  with  James  Quirk  on  the  evening  that 
the  Black-and-Tan  Krumm  was  shot?     A.     Yes,  sir,  1  was. 

Q.     You  were  the  last  person  to  see  him?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  his  body  the  next  day?  A.  Yes.  sir,  1  saw  it 
at  seven  o'clock  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Where  was  he  found?  A.  The  body  was  taken  back  to  his 
bed. 

Q.  You  say  he  was  taken  back  to  his  bed?  A.  Yes,  sir,  by  two 
boatmen.  The  body  was  borne  in  betwixt  two  boatmen.  He  was 
taken  at  half-past  four  from  his  bed.  The  mail  train  came  from 
Dublin  to  Galway.  It  was  to  be  in  Galway  at  five  minutes  to 
twelve, — that  would  be  eleven  fifty-five. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  At  night?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at  night.  So  this 
night  we  were  going.  James  Quirk  and  I.  into  the  gate,  and  we  saw 
a  lot  of  people  running  down.  We  asked  what  had  happened,  and 
they  said  that  two  men  were  shot  up  there.  I  said,  "Let  us  see  who 
they  are.  There  might  be  some  accident."  So  he  said,  "Let's  go 
back  home."  "Very  well,"  said  I.  So  he  went  on  home,  and  I  said 
good-night  to  him.  And  the  next  morning  my  landlady  said  to  me, 
"There  was  terrible  trouble  in  town  last  night."  I  said,  "What  hap- 
pened?" She  said',  "James  Quirk  was  shot."  So  I  got  up  early  and 
I  went  down  to  his  house.  We  happened  to  be  great  friends.  Miss 
Dooley  and  Miss  Morley  were  the  ladies  in  the  house  who  brought 
him  the  priest  that  morning.  So  I  went  up  there  and  saw  him  on  the 
bed  with  nothing  on  him  but  pants  and  shirt.  Of  course  he  was 
covered  over  with  blood,  and  I  did  not  care  much  about  looking,  so 
I  went  away.     I  said  my  prayers  and  went  away.     So  that  is  all. 

Q.     What  was  the  condition  of  his  body?     A.     On  medical  ex- 


354 

amination  it  was  found  that  eleven  bullets  had  entered  his  body. 

Q.  And  he  had  been  shot  during  the  night  preceding, — taken 
away  from  his  house  and  shot  down?  A.  Yes,  sir,  taken  away  at 
half  past  four  in  the  morning. 

Q.  Had  he  been  an  active  Republican,  do  you  know?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  he  had  been. 

Q.  The  Chairman:  What  time  did  you  leave  him?  A.  I  left 
him  about  ten  minutes  past  twelve. 

Q.     At  night?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  saw  his  body  the  next  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir,  about 
seven  o'clock. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Now,  at  about  this  time  were  there  any  attacks 
on  the  women  of  Gal  way?     A.     No,  sir, — well 

Q.     I  mean  clipping  the  girls'  hair? 

TWO  INTENDED  MURDER  VICTIMS  ESCAPE 

A.  That  morning  there  were  two  of  the  men  taken  out,  a  man 
named  Joe  Cummins  and  a  man  named  John  Broderick.  Cummins 
lived  in  St.  Brendans  Terrace,  and  John  Broderick  lived  on  Prospect 
Hill.  They  were  taken  out  that  same  morning.  They  brought  Cum- 
mins up  to  where  this  constable  was  shot  and  put  him  up  against 
the  door  there.  It  seems  they  were  very  drunk,  the  military,  and 
they  put  him  up  against  the  door  and  gave  orders,  "Get  ready. 
Fire!"  And  as  soon  as  he  heard  the  word,  "Get  ready,"  he  dropped 
down  to  the  ground  and  started  to  moan,  and  they  said,  "We  have 
done  him."  He  escaped  with  one  bullet  in  the  ankle.  So  he  scram- 
bled up  and  went  into  the  hotel  by  the  back  way.  He  had  to  be 
taken  to  the  hospital  immediately,  because  it  was  not  safe  to  have 
him  there  in  the  hotel.  So  after  they  took  him  from  there  I  do  not 
know  what  happened. 

Q.  In  the  case  of  Cummins,  in  what  house  was  Cummins  living? 
A.  He  was  living  in  the  house  of  Mrs.  Madden  at  St.  Brendans 
Terrace. 

Q.  Was  any  other  house  besides  Mrs.  Madden's  visited  by  the 
Black-and-Tans?  A.  Yes,  they  took  out  a  man  named  Broderick 
the  same  morning,  and  something  similar  happened.  He  escaped 
too.  They  took  him  into  a  field  where  he  dropped  down.  That 
morning  they  also  burned  down  Broderick's  house,  and  right  oppo- 
site— I  know  the  two  men  there.  Their  names  are  John  Droney  and 
Michael  Larkin.  They  rushed  across  to  extinguish  the  flames,  and 
as  soon  as  they  did,  the  military  fired,  and  they  had  to  go  back  to 
their  house  again. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  As  I  understand  you,  they  fired  at  them 
when  they  went  to  attempt  to  put  out  the  flames?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they 
had  to  go  back  again.     There  was  a  hail  of  bullets  along  the  street. 


855 

ATTACKS  ON  WOMEN  OF  GALWAY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  In  the  case  of  Cummins,  what  was  done  in  con- 
nection with  the  house  at  which  he  was  stopping?  A.  On  the  Sun- 
day following  they  called  at  this  house  and  called  out  Miss  Madden, 
and  they  cut  off  her  hair.  They  also  called  at  Miss  Broderick's  house 
and  cut  off  her  hair  also;  and  they  went  to  a  house  in  College  Road, 
the  Misses  Turk,  and  took  the  two  of  them  out  and  cut  off  their  hair. 
They  also  visited  Miss  Burke's  house.  She  was  staying  in  Galway, 
working  in  a  dry  goods  store,  a  house  called  McDonald's.  She  lived 
about  three  miles  from  the  city  of  Galway.  They  went  out  there  in 
the  morning  about  half-past  five  or  six  o'clock.  A  military  lorry 
came,  and  she  got  out  of  bed  and  went  out,  and  they  went  away. 
She  thought  when  they  went  away  that  they  might  not  come  back 
again,  and  she  went  to  bed  again.  She  was  not  there  a  half  an  hour 
when  they  came  back  and  cut  her  hair  off.  She  was  the  sister  of 
Father  Burke. 

Q.  When  you  say  they  cut  her  hair  off,  what  do  you  mean?  A. 
The  military  did  it,  because  nobody  else  could  be  out,  especially  in 
a  military  lorry,  at  that  hour  of  the  morning. 

Q.  Were  they  soldiers  or  the  Black-and-Tans?  A.  They  were 
supposed  to  be  the  military. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Was  any  reason  given  for  cutting  off  her 
hair?  A.  No  reason  whatever  except  that  they  were  strong  Re- 
publicans, all  those  girls. 

Q.  Were  they  members  of  the  Cumann  na  in  Ban?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
they  were  members. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Now,  this  was  in  the  latter  part  of  August? 
A.  No,  the  Sunday  following  September  9th, — Thursday  would  be 
the  9th.    The  Sunday  after  that  it  happened. 

"ON  THE  RUN"  TO  ESCAPE  POLICE 

Q.  Were  there  any  raids  on  the  houses  adjacent  to  your  shop  at 
this  time?     A.     Yes,  sir,  there  were. 

Q.  Will  you  state  about  that  occasion?  A.  We  had  curfew  im- 
mediately after  this  business. 

Q.  The  curfew  had  not  been  in  effect  at  the  time  of  the  first 
shooting  up  of  Galway?  The  curfew  was  not  in  effect  at  that  time? 
A.    No,  sir,  not  until  after  September  9th. 

Q.  People  were  afraid  to  go  out  and  talk  to  friends,  for  ex- 
ample, after  that  date?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  it  was  put  on  immediately. 
So  Mr.  Walsh  asked  me  if  I'd  stay  with  him  when  curfew  was  put  on. 
There  were  a  good  many  raids  about  the  place. 

Q.  What  was  his  name?  A.  Michael  Walsh.  So  he  asked  me 
if  I  would  stop  for  a  few  nights  and  I  said,  "Certainly,"  and  I  did. 
One  night  the  Black-and-Tans  came  to  where  I  was  stopping 


856 

Q.  What  night  was  this?  A.  A  night  about  the  15th  or  16th  of 
September;  and  they  came  to  where  I  was  boarding  and  they  asked 
was  Tom  Nolan  in  the  house.  He  said  I  was  not  there.  It  was  about 
half-past  one  in  the  morning.  They  said  that  I  should  be  there,  and 
he  said  I  was  not.  Anyway,  they  took  him  out  of  his  bed  with  no 
boots  or  stockings  on,  and  no  pants  or  anything  except  his  shirt,  and 
they  took  him  down  about  a  hundred  yards  away  and  put  him  up 
against  a  wall,  five  of  them,  and  told  him  if  he  would  not  tell  where 
I  was,  they  would  shoot  him  dead.  So  his  wife  got  into  an  awful 
state,  and  got  up  also.  There  was  a  man  living  next  door  named 
Silvy,  and  so  she  asked  him  for  God's  sake  to  get  up,  that  they  were 
going  to  shoot  her  husband,  and  to  save  him.  So  he  got  up  and  put 
on  his  tunic,  pants,  and  trousers,  and  ran  down  after  them  and  told 
them  that  he  was  not  the  man,  that  I  was  not  stopping  at  the  house 
that  particular  night,  and  that  he  was  all  right,  not  to  shoot  that 
man. 

Q.  Did  they  release  him  then?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  released  him. 
And  in  about  a  week's  time  again  they  called  on  him.  They  did  not 
take  him  out  the  second  time,  but  they  said  if  he  did  not  tell  where  I 
was  they  would  burn  down  the  house.  Of  course  I  was  not  sleeping 
there.     I  was  somewhere  else. 

Q.  You  were  sleeping  out  that  night?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Although 
I  happened  to  be  working  at  my  store  during  the  day,  they  never 
came  to  me  during  the  daytime, — always  at  night. 

WANTED  BY  POLICE  BECAUSE  A  REPUBLICAN 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Why  did  they  want  you?  A.  My  business 
place  was  called,  "Nolan,  Republican  Outfitter."  That  was  the  sign 
I  had.. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  had  a  sign,  "Thomas  Nolan,  Republican 
Outfitter"?     A.     "T.  Nolan,  Republican  Outfitter." 

Q.  Major  Newman:  That  was  the  reason,  was  it?  A.  That 
was  the  reason,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  were  an  active  Republican, — you  were 
active  in  the  Republican  ranks?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  does  "Republican  Outfitter"  mean? 
An  outfitter  of  ideas,  or  an  outfitter  of  clothes?  A.  It  is  to  sell 
Irish  manufactured  goods. 

Q.  That  does  not  mean  private  Republican  uniforms?  A.  There 
were  no  uniforms,  because  you  would  not  be  allowed  to  wear  a  uni- 
form. 

REPEATED  RAIDS  AND  ROBBERY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Following  this,  what  was  the  next  occurrence? 
A.     The  next  occurrence  was  on  the  night  of  the  21st  of  September. 


857 

There  were  a  good  many  raids  around  the  city,  the  houses  were  being 
wrecked,  and  Mr.  Walsh  was  expecting  a  raid;  so  we  were  sleeping 
there  at  night.  He  might  go  to  bed  for  a  couple  of  hours,  and  then 
he  would  relieve  me.  and  I  would  go  to  bed  for  a  couple  of  hours 
more.  We  were  looking  out  for  those  fellows.  In  any  case,  this 
night  they  came,  the  21st  of  September.  We  were  expecting  them. 
Mrs.  Walsh  was  there  and  her  eldest  boys.  Michael,  Joe,  and  Eddie. 
He  had  eight  children,  the  youngest  two  years  old, — seven  boys  and 
a  girl, — the  youngest  two  and  the  eldest  eleven  years  of  age.  So 
they  came  this  night  about  half-past  twelve,  and  of  course  we  were 
expecting  them  that  night;  so  we  had  escaped  out  at  the  back,  and 
they  banged  the  door  with  the  butts  of  their  rifles,  and  we  ran  down- 
stairs and  out.  They  tried  to  smash  in  the  door,  but  we  had  a  barri- 
cade. So  they  smashed  a  window  and  came  in  through  the  window; 
and  then  there  was  terrible  firing  with  rifles  and  also  bombs.  He 
had  a  safe  there,  and  they  threw  about  ten  bombs  at  the  safe,  but 
they  failed  to  smash  it. 

Q.  Mrs.  Walsh  was  in  the  house,  was  she?  A.  Mrs.  Walsh  was 
upstairs  at  the  time.  He  had  a  grocery  and  hardware  place  as  well 
as  a  bar.  He  used  to  sell  buckets  and  all  that  sort  of  thing.  He 
had  three  big  casks,  that  I  think  would  contain  about  75  gallons  each 
when  they  are  filled;  so  they  filled  the  buckets  with  whiskey  and 
took  it  away.  Mrs.  Walsh  came  down.  She  thought  they  were  gone 
away.  The  taps  were  running  at  the  time,  and  she  turned  them  off. 
Then  one  of  them  came  back. 

Q.  Do  you  suppose  they  had  drunk  all  the  whiskey  in  the  mean- 
time, and  came  back  for  more?  (Laughter.)  A.  I  do  not  know. 
Anyway,  this  man  went  upstairs  to  where  Mrs.  Walsh  was 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  he  an  officer,  do  you  know?  A.  He  was 
supposed  to  be  in  charge  of  them,  because  he  gave  orders  for  them 
to  go,  and  all  that  sort  of  thing.  So  he  went  upstairs  where  Mrs. 
Walsh  and  Michael,  and  Joe,  the  eldest,  were,  and  the  boy  asked  for 
God's  sake  not  to  shoot  his  mother.  Mrs.  Walsh  held  up  pretty 
well.  So  he  went  into  the  sitting  room  and  back  into  the  kitchen. 
He  had  his  revolver  with  him,  and  he  took  off  the  table  cover  and 
put  all  the  silver  and  all  the  glass  into  the  table  cover  and  took  it 
out;  and  came  back  to  Mrs.  Walsh  and  started  to  kiss  her  hand. 
There  was  also  a  coat  there  belonging  to  a  man  named  Dr.  Cusack, 
Member  of  Parliament  for  North  Galway,  and  he  took  that  away. 
So  he  bid  her  good  night,  and  they  cleared  away. 

Q.  Did  he  take  this  table  cloth  filled  with  silverware  with  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  he  took  it  and  the  coat  also.  It  was  about  five  o'clock 
by  this  time.  So  she  thought  they  would  come  back  again;  so  her- 
self and  her  two  children  went  next  door  to  a  house  called  Gillespie's, 
and  they  took  her  in  for  an  hour  or  so.  So  we  came  back  in  the 
back  yard  in  the  meantime,  and  Michael  Walsh  came  and  was  look- 


858 

ing  for  his  wife.  He  thought  they  had  taken  her  away,  and  he  ran 
up  and  down  the  street  looking  for  her,  crying;  and  Mrs.  Gillespie, 
who  was  sitting  at  the  window,  said  his  wife  was  in  there.  So  we 
went  back  to  the  house  and  found  everything  smashed  up.  The 
whiskey  was  all  over  the  house.  It  was  running  down  the  channels, 
and  the  groceries  were  smashed  up,  and  everything,  and  the  safe 
pulled  out  in  the  middle  of  the  floor.  There  were  revolver  shots 
sent  in  through  the  keyhole. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  say  that  there  were  evidences  that  they  had 
thrown  bombs  at  the  safe?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  threw  bombs  at  the 
safe.     We  picked  up  pieces  of  the  bombs. 

Q.     Now,  were  there  any  other  incidents  connected  with  this  night 
that  are  of  importance?     A.    No,  sir,  not  that  nighv. 
_-.^,£  £—  i 

SHOP  WRECKED  AND  LOOTED 

Q.  Now,  when  was  the  next  attack  on  the  house.  A.  The  next 
night.  The  next  night  we  intended  to  stop  in  the  house  a  couple  of 
doors  away,  and  go  out  by  the  back  that  night.  Curfew  was  on  by 
the  time,  and  we  could  not  get  out  by  the  front  door,  as  we  would 
be  shot  if  we  went  out  the  front.  So  we  attempted  to  go  out  and 
get  a  couple  of  hours  sleep  if  we  could;  and  we  were  just  about  to 
go  when  the  door  went  bang.  I  knew  it  was  my  place,  so  we  went 
away  and  heard  them  firing  until  about  five  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q.  Did  you  stay  in  that  neighborhood  somewhere?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
in  the  neighborhood.  We  did  not  go  to  bed  at  all.  We  stopped  there 
all  night,  and  when  they  were  gone  away  in  the  morning  at  about 
five  o'clock,  I  came  out  and  went  into  my  shop  and  found  the  whole 
place  looted.  All  the  stuff  was  taken  away,  and  what  was  not  taken 
away  was  thrown  into  the  street. 

Q.  That  was  ready-made  clothing,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  all  made 
up  goods,  principally.  I  sold  habits  for  dead  people,  and  things 
that  were  needed  like  that.  And  they  had  a  card  attached  to  it,  "You 
are  a  doomed  man." 

Q.  Your  death  shroud  was  there  for  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is 
there  yet.  There  were  two  candles  lighted  on  the  counter.  It  seems 
that  they  could  not  get  to  the  gas  meter,  and  so  they  left  two  candles 
lighted;  and  I  picked  the  good  things  up  from  the  street  and  took 
them  into  the  shop.  We  patched  up  as  well  as  we  could  the  door. 
So  about  two  or  three  nights  afterwards  they  came  again  and  took 
away  the  remainder. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  the  shop  when  they  left?  A.  It 
was  absolutely  no  use  whatever. 

Q.  Following  this,  when  was  the  next  attack  on  the  house  of  Mr. 
Walsh?     A.     The  next  attack  was  on  the  20th  of  October. 

Q,     That  was  the  night  that  he  was  killed?     A.     Yes,  sir. 


859 

Mr.  Manly:  I  would  like  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Commission 
to  the  fact  that  this  is  Michael  Walsh,  the  cousin  of  Miss  Nellie 
Craven,  who  testified  here  with  regard  to  his  death.  She  testified, 
though,  simply  on  a  hasis  of  the  letters  which  she  had  received. 
This  is  the  same  case. 

NO  COMPENSATION  FROM  INSURANCE 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Before  you  start  with  that,  Mr.  Nolan,  had 
you  any  insurance  on  your  stock?     A.    Yes,  sir,  I  had  insurance. 

Q.  Fire  insurance?  A.  I  had  insurance  for  a  thousand  pounds. 
It  was  only  about  seven  weeks  started. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  collect  it?  A.  No,  sir,  they  would  not  pay  any 
insurance. 

Q.  What  reason  did  they  allege?  A.  There  is  no  use  claiming 
insurance,  of  course,  if  you  mean  compensation. 

Q.  No,  I  mean  insurance  from  the  company.  A.  There  is  no 
insurance  against  what  the  military  breaks  up  in  Ireland  at  the  pres- 
ent time. 

Q.  Was  there  such  a  clause  in  your  policy  at  the  time?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:    Was  that  fire  insurance?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  place  was  not  burned;  that  was  the  difficulty,  was  it? 
A.     \es,  sir,  it  was  not  burned. 

Q.     So  the  fire  insurance  did  not  protect  you?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  The  Chairman :  There  is  such  a  thing  as  a  riot  insurance 
written?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  the  premium  is  very  high.  I  could  not 
afford  to  pay  that. 

Mr.  Manly:  It  has  developed,  has  it  not,  that  there  is  a  differen- 
tial rate  for  damage  by  Crown  troops  and  damage  of  the  Republican 
forces? 

Chairman  Wood:    Yes. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  think  that  testimony  has  been  brought  out.  If  not, 
I  was  going  to  ask  the  witness  a  question  on  it. 

THE  MURDER  OF  COUNCILLOR  MICHAEL  WALSH 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Just  proceed  now  with  the  attack  on  Mr.  Walsh's 
house  the  last  night.  A.  Well,  it  was  about  half  past  nine,  and 
there  were  nine  or  ten  of  us  there  inside. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  In  your  house  or  Mr.  Walsh's?  A.  In 
Mr.  Walsh's  house. 

Q.  This  was  in  the  bar,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  bar.  And  five 
men  came  in.  They  were  five  strangers.  They  asked  for  five  glasses 
of  port  wine,  and  they  sat  down  at  the  grocery  counter,  and  Mr. 
Walsh  himself  served  them  with  drink.  Then  two  of  them  went  out 
into  the  yard,  and  came  back  again.     That  was  about  half-past  nine 


860 

or  twenty  minutes  of  ten.  They  closed  the  doors  and  then  searched 
our  pockets. 

Q.  Were  those  five  men  in  civilian  clothes?  A.  Yes,  sir.  And 
when  they  had  done  that,  they  told  us  to  clear  out,  and  we  did,  and 
went  outside.  There  were  a  lot  of  Black-and-Tans  out  there,  as  we 
call  them,  and  they  told  us  to  clear  the  streets.  So  we  went  away 
on  our  business.  There  was  a  boy  there  named  Monaghan,  17  years 
of  age.  Four  took  out  Mr.  Walsh  and  one  held  up  Monoghan. 
They  took  Mr.  Walsh  down  High  Street,  down  the  Fish  Market,  and 
down  to  the  Spanish  Parade, — the  river  flows  just  beside  the  Spanish 
Parade.  So  they  came  back  about  twenty  minutes  past  ten,  and  of 
course  Monaghan  was  held  up  all  the  time.  They  pointed  revolvers, 
these  other  men  who  had  charge  of  him.  They  came  back  about 
twenty  minutes  past  ten  and  said,  "We  have  done  away  with  that 
bugger."  "Are  you  going  to  shoot  me  too?"  said  the  young  fellow. 
"Well,"  they  said,  "we  are  English  secret  service  men;  we  are  secret 
service  men,  and  we  know  what  we  are  doing.  We  have  not  heard 
anything  about  you  yet."  So  they  took  a  lot  of  cigarettes,  and  one 
man  went  upstairs  and  got  Mr.  Walsh's  frieze  overcoat  that  hung 
behind  the  kitchen  door,  and  put  it  on  and  walked  out.  Mrs.  Walsh 
was  not  sleeping  in  the  house  at  that  time.  She  was  stopping  with 
her  sister.  Her  sister's  husband,  Mr.  Mahon,  was  staying  with  her 
for  some  time.  They  said  to  Mrs.  Walsh  that  her  husband  was  taken 
out,  and  they  did  not  know  what  happened.  So  she  went  to  the 
Augustine  fathers,  and  Father  Duffy  and  another  priest  went  with 
her  around  the  docks,  and  they  stayed,  walking  all  night,  looking 
for  the  body,  and  could  not  find  it.  But  at  six  o'clock  in  the  morn- 
ing, when  day  broke,  two  young  fishermen  found  him  in  the  river 
with  his  hand  sticking  up;  and  they  took  him  up  and  put  him  into  a 
cart  and  brought  him  back  to  his  house,  and  left  him  on  the  floor. 
We  took  his  clothes  off  of  him,  and  took  him  upstairs  and  washed 
him.  Those  two  young  men  who  took  him  out  of  the  water  have 
cleared  out  of  the  country. 

Q.  Did  they  threaten  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  went  to  her  house 
to  find  out  who  took  him  out  of  the  water;  and  the  two  young  fel- 
lows named  King  and  a  young  fisherman, — one  was  an  ex-naval  man, 
have  cleared  out  of  the  country  and  have  not  been  there  since. 

VICTIM  REFUSED  SERVICES  OF  A  PRIEST 

Q.  Now,  before  they  took  Mr.  Walsh  out,  was  anything  said  to 
him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  there  was.  Mr.  Walsh  asked  could  he  see  a 
priest.  First  of  all,  they  said,  "You  have  only  an  hour  to  live." 
Mr.  Walsh  said,  "How  is  that?"  He  said,  "Your  time  has  come; 
you  have  only  an  hour  to  live."  He  said,  "Would  you  mind  letting 
The  man  said,  "No,  sir,  you  will  get  no  priest," 


861 

He  said,  ""The  priests  are  far  worse  than  yourself."  Me  said, 
"Well,"  he  said  to  the  assistant,  "You  might  give  me  a  glass  of 
whiskey,"  although  he  never  drank  in  his  life  exeept  at  very  odd 
times.  So  the  young  fellow  gave  him  a  glass  of  rum.  He  does  not 
drink.     They  asked  him  some  other  questions. 

NO  PUBLIC  INQUEST  HELD 

Q.  Was  there  any  inquest  held  over  the  body?  A.  There  was 
no  inquest. 

Q.  This  was  at  about  the  time  when  inquests  were  abolished  in 
Ireland,  was  it?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  was  there  any  military  inquiry  held?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
there  was  a  secret  military  inquiry  held. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  verdict  was  handed  down?  A.  I 
have  not  heard  of  any. 

Q.     None  was  made  public?     A.     No,  sir. 

MURDERED  BECAUSE  A  REPUBLICAN  CITY 
COUNCILLOR 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  these  men  give  any  reason  as  to  why 
they  wanted  Walsh?  Was  there  any  charge  against  him?  A.  No, 
sir,  there  was  not  any  reason  except  he  was  a  strong  Republican,  a 
member  of  the  Republican  council  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  had  participated  in  any  attacks  on 
the  police?     A.     0,  no,  sir,  none. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:    How  old  a  man  was  he?     A.     Thirty-nine  years. 

Q.  How  many  children  did  he  have?  A.  He  had  seven  boys 
and  a  girl. 

Q.  Eight  children  in  all?  A.  Yes,  sir.  They  ranged  from  two 
years  to  eleven  years. 

Q.  And  on  this  evening  was  his  property  further  destroyed? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  they  took  away  cigarettes.  The  only  thing  they  took 
was  cigarettes  and  his  overcoat. 

HOUSES  WRECKED   IN  GALWAY 

Q.  When  did  you  leave  Galway?  A.  I  left  Gal  way  about  Octo- 
ber some  time.  The  next  thing  was  that  of  a  lot  of  houses  got 
smashed  up. 

Q.  I  was  going  to  ask  you  what  happened  following.  A.  I  have 
seen  houses  wrecked  in  the  suburbs  as  well  as  the  city.  There  was 
Mrs.  Kelly's  at  Salthill;  Mrs.  Kenney,  Salthill;  Mr.  Graham,  Salt- 
hill;  Mr.  Hammon,  the  West 

Q.  Are  those  private  residences?  A.  Some  of  them  are  business 
houses.     Also  Mr.  Connolly,  Raven  Terrace;  Mr.  Kiue,  Raven  Ter- 


862 

race;  Mr.  James  Lee,  Dominick  Street;  Mr.  Brown,  Dominick 
Street;  Mr.  O'Connor,  Main  Guard  Street;  Mr.  Moylett,  Williams 
Gate;  Mr.  Glannagan,  Merchants  Road;  John  Lee,  Woods  Quay; 
Mr.  Michael  Lyden,  the  Square;  Mr.  Broderick,  Prospect  Hill. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Those  are  all  in  the  city  of  Galway,  or  in 
the  suburbs?     A.     Nearly  all  are  in  the  city  except  Sal  thill. 

Q.     You  have  seen  them  all?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  general  condition  when  you  say 
they  were  wrecked?  A.  They  were  all  wrecked,  because  they  held 
Republican  views. 

Q.  I  say  with  regard  to  the  condition  of  property?  A.  There 
was  the  Express  office,  the  Galway  Express,  a  local  paper;  and  also 
Mr.  O'Day's  place.  I  have  seen  the  Express,  and  the  machinery  was 
all  smashed  up. 

Q.  We  have  testimony  here  that  following  the  general  raid  that 
night  in  which  the  Galway  Express  was  raided,  that  a  small  paper 
was  gotten  out  the  next  day.  We  had  that  offered  in  evidence  here. 
A.    Yes,  I  saw  that. 

Q.  Have  they  continued  to  issue  the  Galway  Express?  Have 
they  issued  any  further  paper?  A.  No,  sir,  when  they  saw  that 
issue,  they  went  back  and  smashed  that  machine  also. 

Q.  Was  that  the  last  issue  of  the  Galway  Express?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
that  was  the  last  issue. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  were  those  houses  destroyed?  What 
was  their  condition?  Just  tell  us  in  a  general  way.  A.  Bombs 
were  thrown  through  windows  and  doors.  Doors  were  smashed  and 
furniture  taken  out  into  the  street  and  smashed  just  as  match  wood 
with  sledge  hammers. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Were  those  bombs  regular  military 
bombs  such  as  they  use  in  the  British  army?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

DRIVEN  OUT  OF  BUSINESS  BY  RAIDS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  further  attacks  on  your  house,  or  on 
your  shop?  A.  There  were.  There  were  two  further  attacks.  Of 
course,  that  would  be  about  the  25th  or  the  29th  that  it  was  smashed 
up.     I  could  not  carry  on  business. 

Q.     It  was  some  sort  of  a  raid?    A.    Yes,  sir,  some  kind  of  a  raid. 

Q.  Were  all  the  goods  thrown  out?  A.  The  goods  were  thrown 
out,  and  that  that  was  left  were  no  good.     It  was  trampled  down 

Q.     So  your  whole  stock  was  destroyed?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     What  was  the  value  of  your  stock?     A.     About  £1,600. 

Q.     About  $8,000,  roughly,  in  our  money?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  leave  Galway?  A.  Well,  my  life  was  threat- 
ened, and  I  had  to  go. 

Q.     You  were  continually  on  the  run? 


863 

CONTINUOUS  MAN-HUNT  IN  GALWAY:  DENTIST 
FLOGGED  AND  SHOT 

A.  I  was.  They  were  continually  after  me  from  time  to  time. 
I  slept  in  one  house  one  night,  in  a  certain  house  in  Galway;  and  I 
was  going  back  again  the  next  night,  but  I  found  out  that  the  city 
was  held  up.  They  were  searching  everybody;  and  I  was  told  not 
to  go  near  the  city  under  any  conditions;  that  if  I  did,  I  would  be 
shot.  So  I  did  not  go  that  night.  I  was  going  back  to  the  same 
house,  and  that  very  night  they  called  at  that  house  and  took  out  a 
young  man  named  Hickey,  a  dentist,  and  took  him  out  into  the  road. 

Q.     Did  they  flog  him?     A.     Yes,  sir;  he  has  been  since  shot. 

Q.  But  they  flogged  him?  They  were  hunting  for  you  that 
night,  and  they  flogged  him?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  was  afterwards  shot 
dead  in  the  streets  of  Dublin  for  having  his  hands  in  his  pockets. 

Q.     What  was  his  name?     A.     Hickey. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  first  name?  A.  I  do  not  know  his  first 
name. 

Q.     You  say  he  was  a  dentist?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  had  his  place  of  business  in  Galway?  A.  He  used  to 
work  for  Mr.  Anderson  in  Galway. 

DAILY  RAIDS  IN  DUBLIN 
Q.  Now,  where  did  you  go  when  you  left  Galway?  A.  When  I 
found  out  that  there  was  a  terrible  search  for  me,  I  left.  They  went 
from  house  to  house,  so  I  had  to  get  an  automobile,  and  had  to  go 
sixty  miles  into  the  country  to  catch  the  mail  train  for  Dublin.  So 
I  escaped  to  Dublin,  and  I  was  walking  around  for  three  or  four 
weeks,  sleeping  here  and  there.  There  was  nothing  but  raids  every 
day  in  Dublin. 

Q.  Raids  were  an  everyday  occurrence,  were  they?  A.  Every 
day  you  went  out  you  had  to  go  by  some  by-street,  around  back. 
But  you  took  no  notice  of  the  raids  there.  They  were  so  common. 
The  next  thing  was  Croke  Park  on  the  2 1st  of  November. 

Q.  You  saw  innumerable  raids,  but  you  did  not  pay  much  atten- 
tion to  them?  A.  No,  sir,  we  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  them, 
we  were  so  used  to  them. 

THE  CROKE  PARK  MASSACRE 
Q.  Now,  tell  us  about  the  Croke  Park  affair.  First,  tell  us  what 
was  the  occasion  for  the  people  going  to  Croke  Park?  A.  There 
was  a  challenge  match  between  Dublin  and  Tipperary.  I  was  in 
company  with  George  Nichols,  Chairman  of  the  Galway  County 
Council.  He  is  in  jail  at  present.  So  we  went  to  the  match  at  about 
2:45  o'clock.  We  were  there  about  half-past  two,  but  the  match 
did  not  start  until  about  three  o'clock.     It  was  a  quarter  of  an  hour 


864 

late.  So  we  got  our  tickets  in  the  ordinary  way,  and  we  went  in  the 
stands,  and  the  teams  came  along,  and  they  got  photographed. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How"  many  people  were  there?  A.  The 
first  papers  that  came  out  said  there  were  fifteen  thousand.  Then 
again  they  said  there  were  only  five  thousand.  I  do  not  believe  there 
were  fifteen  thousand. 

Q.  You  were  seated  where  you  could  see  the  match?  A.  0,  yes, 
sir,  I  saw  the  match. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  many  do  you  think  were  there?  A.  I 
would  say  about  seven  or  eight  thousand  people. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  grandstand  was  full?  A.  The  people  were 
afraid  to  go  to  matches,  or  to  any  other  place. 

Q.  The  Chairman:  This  was  a  very  popular  football  match, 
was  it?  A.  No,  sir,  we  have  bigger  matches.  We  have  champion- 
ship matches  that  draw  bigger  crowds.  This  was  only  a  challenge 
match.  But  anyway,  the  teams  came  out  to  the  field  and  got  photo- 
graphed. Dunphy,  the  umpire,  was  a  very  popular  man.  We  were 
not  long  in  the  stand  before  we  saw  an  aeroplane  hovering  over  the 
ground.  It  circled  around  the  place  two  or  three  times,  but  all  were 
interested  in  the  match  and  did  not  take  any  notice  of  it.  They  made 
the  best  of  the  game  all  the  way  through.  It  was  a  very  interesting 
game,  and  we  were  all  interested  in  it.  And  suddenly  we  heard  a 
terrible  volley,  and  saw  soldiers  running  along  the  field.  I  looked 
into  the  field  myself,  and  saw  a  man  by  the  name  of  Hogan  of  Tip- 
perary.  He  was  shot  through  the  mouth.  He  was  just  going  for 
the  ball,  together  with  a  Dublin  player  named  Frank  Burke, — the 
two  of  them  were  going  for  the  ball,  and  he  was  running  toward 
the  city  goal  when  he  got  shot  through  the  mouth.  Burke  did  the 
best  he  could  for  him. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Who  was  Burke?  A.  One  of  the  Dublin 
players.  He  comes  from  Kildare.  He  was  a  good  football  player. 
The  next  thing,  they  all  ran  toward  the  Cloniff  side.  The  soldiers 
were  coming  in  the  other  side,  firing  as  they  came. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  How  many  soldiers  were  coming  in?  A. 
I  could  not  really  tell  you  how  many  soldiers,  because  I  did  not  pay 
attention  to  the  number  at  that  time. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  first  sound  that  you  heard  was  the 
sound  of  a  volley  of  shots?     A.     Yes,  sir,  a  big  volley  of  shots. 

Q.     More  than  one?     A.     About  a  hundred, — more  perhaps. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Shots  from  rifles?  A.  Rifles,  yes,  sir.  So 
we  all  ran  that  way,  and  as  soon  as  we  did,  we  were  faced  by  an- 
other crowd  of  soldiers  who  started  to  banging  away  at  us. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Had  any  of  the  people  in  the  grand  stand  been 
shot?  A.  There  was  one  man  beside  George  Nichols.  I  do  not 
know  his  name.  He  was  shot  right  through  the  ear,  and  the  man 
next  to  him  was  shot  right  through  the  hat. 


865 

Q.  The  other  man  was  not  killed?  A.  No,  sir,  the  other  man 
got  shot  right  through  the  ear. 

Q.  It  was  at  the  same  time?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at  the  same  time.  It 
seemed  to  he  the  one  rifle  that  fired  the  two  shots. 

Q.  So  there  were  a  number  of  shots  that  were  fired, — a  hundred 
shots,  you  would  estimate,  in  that  volley?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Did  you  hear  any  shooting  from  the  crowd 
of  any  kind?  A.  No.  sir.  there  was  no  shooting  of  any  kind  what- 
ever, not  the  slightest. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  hear  any  shots  fired  hefore  the  general 
volley?     A.     No,  sir,  no  shots  had  been  fired. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  you  ever  hear  any  rumors  that 
there  were  to  be  sentries  posted  by  the  Irish  to  watch  over  the  game? 
A.     No.  sir. 

Q.  There  was  a  crowd  hanging  around  the  football  match,  was 
there?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  the  soldiers  come  in,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
I  saw  them  come  there. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  You  did  not  see  them  before  you  heard 
them,  did  you?     A.     No.  sir;  the  first  thing  I  heard  was  the  volley. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  You  were  inside  the  grounds  when  they 
fired  the  first  volley?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just  inside  on  the  stand.  One 
crowd  comes  into  the  stand  by  one  gate,  and  the  other  comes  from 
the  far  side,  which  is  the  cheaper  gate.  They  all  came  this  way  (in- 
dicating), and  ran  toward  the  Cloniff  goal.  They  were  approached 
by  the  soldiers  again,  and  they  ran  off  toward  the  gate,  and  I  saw 
women  and  children  and  thousands  of  people  trampled  on. 

CROWD  PANIC-STRICKEN  BY  SUDDEN  ATTACK 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  whole  crowd  was  panic  stricken?  A.  Yes. 
sir. 

Q.  It  was  mad  with  fear,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  girls  and  chil- 
dren, 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Suppose  you  go  ahead  with  your  story 
from  where  we  interrupted  you,  when  the  crowd  rushed  down  from 
the  grandstand.  A.  They  were  in  groups,  here  and  there,  and  one 
man  recited  the  Rosary,  and  we  all  answered.  It  was  rumored  that 
they  were  blank  shots,  but  they  were  not.  The  man  called  to  us  not 
to  be  afraid,  that  they  were  blank  shots;  but  we  afterwards  found 
out  that  they  were  not  blank  shots. 

INDIVIDUAL  SEARCH  PROVES  CROWD  UNARMED 

The  next  thing  they  told  us  was  to  hold  up  our  hands  and  keep 
our  hands  held  up  over  our  heads. 


866 

Q.  The  whole  crowd?  A.  Yes,  sir,  except  they  allowed  the 
women  and  children  to  go  out,  but  kept  the  whole  crowd.  As  to 
poor  Hogan,  there  was  one  priestj  there  who  asked  for  permission 
to  go  and  see  him.     His  name  was  Father  Crotty,  I  think. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Hogan  was  the  player  who  was  shot  in 
the  mouth?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  was  stretched  on  the  field  all  the 
time.  This  priest  asked  permission  to  go  to  him,  and  in  half  an 
hour's  time  he  got  permission;  and  he  had  to  hold  his  hands  up 
while  crossing  the  field.  I  saw  him  going  with  his  two  hands  up 
like  that  (indicating).  Hogan  was  dead,  though,  by  the  time  he  got 
there. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  How  long  did  that  firing  continue?  A.  It 
continued  for  about  10  or  12  minutes. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  hoppened  to  the  crowd?  A.  They 
held  up  their  hands  for  two  hours,  and  everybody  was  searched. 

Q.  They  searched  everybody?  A.  Yes,  sir,  everybody.  There 
were  two  gates,  and  they  let  us  out  by  the  two  gates. 

Q.  And  as  fast  as  they  would  search  them,  they  would  let  them 
out?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  everybody  had  to  be  searched  before  he  could  get  out? 
A.    Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Did  you  see  them  find  any  revolvers  there? 
A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Do  you  know  whether  they  did  find  any  or 
not?     A.     Why,  sir,  there  were  no  revolvers  there. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  There  were  no  shots  fired  back  even  after  the 
first  volley,  were  there?     A.    No,  sir,  there  were  no  shots  fired  back. 

Q.  And  to  your  personal  knowledge  there  were  no  revolvers  on 
the  ground,  that  you  saw,  at  any  rate?  A.  There  were  no  revolvers. 
It  was  generally  believed  that  there  were  no  revolvers  found  at  all. 

Q.  What  was  the  penalty  at  that  time  for  carrying  arms?  A.  A 
man  was  liable  to  be  shot. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  was  the  legal  penalty?  A.  From 
two  to  ten  years. 

TWELVE  CIVILIANS  KILLED,  SIXTY  WOUNDED 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  recall  how  many  persons  were  killed? 
A.     There  were  12  killed. 

Q.  How  many  wounded?  A.  About  60  were  wounded,  and 
about  a  couple  of  hundred  injured. 

Q.  You  mean  injured  by  being  trampled  on  in  the  panic?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 


867 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  any  women  or  children  among  the 
killed?    A.     There  was  one  woman,  Miss  Boyle.    She  was  shot  dead. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Miss  Boyle  was  shot  dead,  you  say?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  she  was  shot  dead. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Were  the  wounded  taken  care  of  dur- 
ing the  period  while  the  men  were  kept  with  their  hands  over  their 
heads?  A.  No,  sir.  They  would  not  let  us  go  near  the  wounded 
at  all. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  further  details  that  you  know  about 
the  Croke  Park  affair?  A.  No,  sir.  It  was  so  short  that  you  could 
not  see  all  that  happened.    In  twenty  minutes  it  was  all  over. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  any  arrests  made  on  this  occasion? 
A.     No,  sir.     They  searched  everybody,  but  there  were  no  arrests. 

Q.     And  everybody  was  released?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     There  was  not  a  single  man  arrested?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  If  anybody  had  had  a  revolver  found  on 
him,  he  would  have  been  arrested,  according  to  the  practice,  would 
be  not?     A.    0,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  there  any  other  instances  that  occurred  in 
Dublin  before  you  left  the  country? 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Unusual  instances?  A.  No,  sir.  That  is 
all  except  minor  things,  and  that  I  did  not  attach  any  importance  to. 

TERRORISM  AND  SHOOTING  ON  COUNTRY  ROADS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  is  the  general  state  of  mind  of  the  people 
of  Dublin  as  compared  with  the  people  in  Gal  way,  for  example?  Is 
terrorism  worse  in  Dublin?  A.  It  is  very  bad  there.  It  is  terrible 
all  around,  all  out  along  the  country  roads.  Of  course,  you  cannot 
sleep  in  a  bed  at  night.  You  meet  them  going  down  the  roads.  They 
have  military  lorries  that  throw  a  searchlight  that  can  see  for  miles. 
That  is  going  on  night  after  night  and  hour  after  hour.  The  cattle 
are  shot,  and  pigs,  and  everything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  happens  to  the  pig  or  the  cow,  what- 
ever it  is,  after  it  is  shot?  Do  they  take  it  along  with  them,  or  leave 
it  for  the  people  who  come  along?  A.  No,  sir.  They  take  away 
the  turkeys  and  geese  and  chickens. 

Q.     They  take  away  the  smaller  things,  do  they?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  are  allowed  to  go  and  get  your  own  pig  after  it  has 
been  shot?     A.     Yes,  sir,  if  you  will  take  the  trouble. 

EFFECT  OF  TERRORISM   ON  WOMEN  AND 
CHILDREN 

Q.  What  effect  on  yourself,  for  instance,  has  this  had?  You  said 
you  had  not  been  able  to  sleep  in  your  own  bed,  or  any  other  bed,  as 
far  as  that  is  concerned.     How  do  you  sleep  now  that  you  are  here, 


868 

over  in  America?  A.  0,  yes,  sir.  I  sleep  all  right.  You  see  you 
get  hardened  to  it,  and  you  do  not  care  what  happens.  You  really 
do  not  care  whether  you  are  shot  or  not. 

Q.  Has  your  nervous  system  since  broken  down  any?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  are  a  great  many 
people  whose  nerves  would  be  broken  clown  by  that?  A.  It  has 
not  broken  the  nerves  of  any  men  in  Ireland  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  about  the  children?  A.  The  children  and 
their  mothers  feel  it  most — the  old  women  and  the  children. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  will  be  the  effect  on  the  grow- 
ing children  of  such  a  thing  as  that?  A.  When  they  do  grow  up, 
the  effect  will  be  there  all  right. 

Q.  Is  it  not  inevitable,  no  matter  how  great  their  courage,  that 
the  effect  on  these  children  cannot  help  but  be  disastrous  from  a 
physiological  and  a  psychological  standpoint  as  well?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  It  is  hard  on  the  mothers.  The  young  men  may  only  go  home 
once  a  week,  and  then  go  away  again.  They  are  feeling  it  worse,  the 
mothers. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  You  are  about  the  same  weight  that  you 
were  before  the  war?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  am  always  about  the  same 
weight — about  140  pound's. 

TWO  PASSPORTS  TO  LEAVE  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  When  did  you  leave  Ireland?  A.  I  left 
Ireland  on  the  first  of  December. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  trouble  in  getting  away?  A.  0,  no  sir. 
I  had  been  in  quarantine  for  22  days. 

Q.     At  Ellis  Island?     A.     No,  sir,  Hoffman  Island. 

Q.     Did  you  get  a  passport?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.     Did  you  have  any  trouble  in  getting  it?     A.     0,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  there  any  objection  on  the  part  of  the 
authorities  to  the  Republican  outfitters  like  yourself  leaving  the 
country?      A.     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Manly:  He  got  to  Dublin,  where  he  was  not  very  well  known. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  there  was  no  objection 
on  the  part  of  the  foreign  government  to  people  leaving?  A.  Mr. 
Manly:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Republican  Government  has  placed 
a  ban  on  any  young  men  leaving  Ireland,  and  Mr.  Nolan  was  given 
a  passport.  It  was  a  passport  by  the  Republican  Government  per- 
mitting him  to  leave  Ireland  on  account  of  the  destruction. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  he  not  have  to  get  another  passport? 
A.  Mr.  Manly:  Yes,  he  did  not  show  his  passport,  the  Republican 
passport,  when  he  applied  for  the  other  one. 


869 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  you  object  to  showing  it  to  us?  A.  I 
have  no  objection.     (Producing  the  passport.) 

Q.  This  is  in  two  languages,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  in 
Gaelic. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Is  this  English  translation  here  a  correct 
translation?       A.     Yes,  sir,  it  is. 

Mr.  Manly:  Suppose  you  read  it  aloud,  or  I  will  read  the  English 
translation.     (  Reading t  : 

"Whereas,  Thomas  Nolan,  a  citizen  of  the  Irish  Republic,  has  made 
application  for  a  permit  to  absent  himself  from  Ireland,  and  has  satis- 
fied the  Government  of  the  Irish  Republic  that  he  has  valid  reasons 
for  leaving  Ireland  for  a  limited  period,  and  has  complied  with  the 
regulations  prescribed  by  the  Government  of  the  Irish  Republic  in 
such  matters ; 

"Now,  therefore,  I.  being  Secretary  of  State  for  Home  Affairs,  do 
hereby  permit  the  said  Thomas  Nolan  to  leave  Ireland  for  a  period 
of  one  year  from  the  second  day  of  November,  1920. 

"Given  under  the  seal  of  the  Republic  of  Ireland  this  first  day  of 
November,  in  the  Year  of  Our  Lord,  1920." 

Signed  by  the  Secretary  of  State  for  Home  Affairs. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  It  is  fair  to  ask,  Mr.  Counsel,  of  your 
client  what  would  happen  if  he  had  not  got  this  permit?  Of  course, 
he,  being  a  good  Republican,  would  have  gotten  it;  but  what  ways 
are  there  of  enforcing  this  right? 

Mr.  Manly:  I  do  not  know.  I  do  not  suppose  there  is  any  way. 
We  have  had  four  witnesses  on  the  stand  who  came  over  here  with- 
out any  difficulty.  This  is  simply  an  assurance  that  this  man  has 
complied  with  that  formality,  and  is  not  a  deserter  from  the  Repub- 
lican cause.  That  is  the  whole  purpose,  to  protect  his  reputation  and 
his  standing. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  You  have  no  objection  to  the  press  repre- 
sentatives seeing  that  paper?     A.    No,  sir,  not  the  slightest. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  there  anything  further  that  you  know  of  that 
we  have  overlooked?     A.    I  do  not  think  so. 

Chairman  Wood:  We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you,  Mr.  Nolan. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  EMIL  PEZOLT 

Q.  Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly  (of  counsel)  :  Your  name  is  Emil  Pezolt? 
A.     That  is  it. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born?      A.     Chicago. 

Q.  Is  your  father  still  living?  A.  No,  my  father  is  dead.  He 
has  been  dead  for  the  last  18  years.  My  mother  is  living  in  Oak- 
land, California. 

Q.     How  old  are  you?     A.     Twenty-one  years  old. 

Q.  Did  you  enlist  during  the  recent  war?  A.  I  endeavored  to 
enlist  in  the  Marine  Corps,  and  I  did;  I  was  successful  in  a  way,  but 


870 

I  obtained  my  induction  papers  from  Washington  at  the  time  when 
Mare  Island  was  quarantined  on  account  of  the  "flu,"  so  I  was  not 
able  to  get  in,  and  while  I  was  waiting  for  my  second  induction 
papers  to  come,  I  was  drafted,  and  sent  down  to  Kelly  Field,  Texas, 
in  the  Aviation  Corps.  And  after  that  the  armistice  was  signed,  and 
I  was  sent  back. 

Q.     You  were  mustered  out?     A.     Yes. 

WITNESS  GOES  TO  CORK  ON  AMERICAN  SHIP 

Q.  Then  what  did  you  do?  A.  I  wanted  to  be  on  the  go,  so  I 
got  in  the  merchant  marine  and  shipped  out  of  San  Francisco,  to  the 
Orient  chiefly,  and  several  times  around  to  this  coast,  during  the 
last  three  years,  since  November,  1918. 

Q.     You  were  in  the  Shipping  Board  vessels?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  your  ship  on  this  trip  to  Ireland?  A.  The  West 
Cannon. 

Q.  By  whom  is  that  chartered?  A.  I  believe  Evans  &  Evans,  of 
Portland,  are  the  charterers  from  the  Shipping  Board.  They  sent  a 
cargo  of  wheat  to  Cork. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Where  did  you  join  the  West  Cannon?  A. 
At  San  Francisco. 

Q.     About  what  date?     A.     About  September  27. 

Q.     This  last  September?    A.    This  last  September. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Where  did  you  get  your  cargo?  A.  In  Port- 
land, Oregon.    We  left  Portland  on  November  6,  I  believe. 

Q.     What  was  the  cargo?     A.     Wheat. 

Q.     Bound  for  what  port?     A.     For  Cork. 

Q.  On  what  date  did  you  arrive  in  Cork?  A.  November  17, 
I  believe. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  did  you  go?  A.  Through  the 
Panama  Canal  and  right  over  to  Queenstown. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  the  West  Cannon  a  large  ship?  A.  She  is 
about  8,800  tons,  a  large  Shipping  Board  tramp. 

Q.  Where  were  you  docked  in  Cork?  A.  We  were  docked  at 
Lapp's  Quay,  about  four  blocks  from  the  city  center. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  was  your  position  on  the  ship?  A. 
Oiler,  junior  engineer. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  long  was  the  West  Cannon  lying  at  Lapp's 
Quay?     A.     Not  quite  five  weeks. 

Q.  When  did  she  sail  back?  On  what  date?  A.  The  date  we 
sailed  was  perhaps  about  December  16.  That  would  make  it  just 
four  weeks. 

Q.  Suppose  you  now  take  up  the  story  of  your  own  experience  in 
Cork.    What  was  your  first  experience  in  Cork? 


871 

DAILY  HOLDUPS  ON  CORK  STREETS 

A.  My  first  experience?  Well,  we  arrived  in  Queenstown  on  a 
Wednesday.  Thursday  morning  I  went  to  Cork.  The  first  night  at 
Cork  I  had  to  go  ashore.  We  heard  rumors  on  board  the  ship  that 
things  were  not  just  as  they  ought  to  be.  We  sent  out  a  couple  of 
feelers  first  to  see  how  things  were.  It  was  necessary — I  had  to  go 
to  the  boot-makers  to  have  my  shoes  fixed,  so  I  got  a  little  Irishman 
to  show  me  the  way.  We  got  about  three  blocks  up  the  quay  where 
the  boot-maker's  place  was,  and  while  we  were  up  there,  or  when  we 
had  got  about  half  way  up  there,  we  looked  and  saw  a  lorry  pass 
us,  and  an  ambulance  was  right  behind  us.  It  passed  us  too.  We 
got  up  to  what  is  called  the  Parliament  Bridge  in  Cork,  and  there  I 
saw  a  poor  fellow  being  put  in  an  ambulance.  I  decided  that  I 
had  better  chase  back  and  put  my  shoes  in  the  shoemakers  and  get 
back  to  the  ship.  That  was  the  first  night.  I  stayed  on  board  the 
next  night. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  time  was  this?  A.  Before  8  o'clock 
in  the  evening. 

Q.  You  were  told  about  the  curfew,  were  you?  A.  Yes,  I 
should  say. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  curfew  hour  in  Cork?  A.  Ten 
o'clock. 

Q.  Following  this,  were  you  held  up  at  all  that  evening?  A. 
No,  I  was  not  held  up  that  evening.     I  got  back. 

Q.  What  were  your  next  experiences  in  Cork?  A.  What  you 
would  call  everyday  experiences  after  that  until  December  11. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  everyday  experiences?  A.  Going  ashore 
and  being  held  up,  for  instance. 

Q.     Held  up  by  whom?     A.     By  the  military  authorities. 

Q.  How  do  they  hold  you  up?  A.  Well,  you  are  proceeding 
down  the  street,  perhaps  thinking  of  an  ice  cream  cone  or  something 
— "Halt!"    "Stick  them  up!     Up  higher!     Come  here!" 

Q.  That  is  the  regular  procedure?  A.  That  is  the  regular  pro- 
cedure.   No  "Advance  and  be  recognized"  there. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Do  they  search  you  then?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Of  course,  if  you  have  a  watch  or  any  extra  money,  you  will  likely 
miss  them.  Of  course,  if  you  do  have  a  gun — well,  it  had  been 
printed  in  the  papers  if  any  person  was  found  with  any  arms  at  all, 
they  would  be  shot.     And  of  course  we  did  not  carry  any  guns. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  those  notices  in  the  papers  while  you 
were  in  Cork?     A.     Yes,  sir. 


872 

AMERICAN   CITIZENSHIP  ABUSED   BY   CROWN 
FORCES 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Did  you  carry  evidence  of  your  American 
citizenship?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  did  you  carry?     A.     A  seaman's  passport. 

Q.  Have  you  that  seaman's  passport  now?  A.  Yes,  I  have  one. 
I  just  obtained  it. 

Q.  This  is  not  the  one  that  you  had  when  you  went  to  Cork? 
A.     No.    You  can't  tell  where  that  is  now. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  the  military  authorities  ask  for  your 
passport?  Did  it  make  any  difference  whether  you  had  it  or  not? 
A.     0,  no,  they  did  not  worry  about  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  would  they  say?  Did  you  claim  American 
citizenship?  A.  Whenever  they  asked  me.  It  was  best  not  to, 
though. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean?  A.  0,  an  Irishman  is  better  off  there 
than  an  American.  There  is  no  particular  love  between  an  English- 
man and  an  American.  I  guess  you  understand  that.  There  is 
nothing  like  brotherly  love,  or  anything  like  that. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  indications  of  that  during  this  search? 
What  did  they  say  to  you  that  made  you  think  they  did  not  love  you? 
A.  First  of  all,  there  was  the  terms  they  used  in  calling  us  "Yanks" 
— there  is  always  quite  a  strong  adjective  attached  to  it;  and  by  the 
way  they  treated  you  generally.  Of  course,  we  could  not  do  any- 
thing. We  were  told,  "Slide  on,  you  blamed  Yank";  something  like 
that.  It  was  nothing  to  be  held  up.  It  got  to  be  an  everyday  occur- 
rence, and  we  did  not  think  anything  about  it. 

Q.  You  expected  to  get  your  hands  up  while  you  were  out?  A. 
0,  sure! 

Q.     It  got  so  that  they  raised  automatically? 

ILLEGAL  TO  HAVE  HANDS  IN  POCKETS 

A.  Well,  hardly.  But  an  order  came  out  after  we  had  been  in 
there  perhaps  a  week  or  ten  days  that  we  were  not  allowed  to  walk 
down  the  streets  with  our  hands  in  our  pockets.  It  started  when  the 
captain  was  up  town  one  afternoon,  and  he  had  been  ordered  to  take 
his  hands  out  of  his  pockets. 

Q.  You  are  referring  to  the  captain  of  the  West  Cannon?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  Mr.  McGovern.  While  he  was  speaking  to  a  young  lady, 
he  was  ordered  to  take  his  hands  out  of  his  pockets.  He  did.  I 
don't  know  why,  but  he  just  did  it.  Later  that  day  he  was  ordered 
to  take  his  hands  out  of  his  pockets  and  he  objected.  He  says,  "You 
can  search  me.  I  have  a  perfect  right  to  keep  my  hands  where  I 
want  to."     They  said,  "He  is  an  American."     So  they  searched  him, 


873 

and  they  let  him  go  at  that,  and  he  related  the  incident  to  the  crew. 
He  is  very  niee.  In  fact,  he  goes  around  with  the  crew  more  than 
most  captains  do.  The  skippers  of  ships  like  that  usually  associate 
with  the  officers,  but  this  man  did  not.  He  went  along  with  the  rest 
of  the  crew.  He  related  the  incident  to  us,  and  of  course  we  wanted 
to  follow  his  example.      But  in  my  case  I  did  not. 

I  was  coming  back  to  the  ship  one  evening.  It  must  have  been 
about  eight  o'clock;  on  the  old  bridge — I  don't  remember  the  name 
of  it;  it  is  called  the  old  bridge  in  Cork.  A  man  dressed  in  plain 
clothes  with  a  long  yellow  slicker  on  him  and  a  soft  hat  was  on 
the  opposite  side  of  the  street.  He  says,  "Take  your  hands  out  of 
your  pockets!"  I  stopped  then  and  thought  perhaps  I  would  argue 
with  him.  He  had  one  hand  in  his  pocket,  and  I  saw  the  point  of  a 
gun,  and  so  I  decided  not  to.  I  kept  on.  But  things  like  that  hap- 
pened all  the  time,  you  know.  It  was  not  anything  out  of  the 
ordinary.  So  we  got  to  thinking  that  they  really  would  not  harm 
a  Yank,  you  know;  that  they  had  some  reasons  for  not  wanting  to; 
that  perhaps  they  were  afraid  that  the  government  might  step  in 
and  do  something — our  American  Government.  But  I  found  out 
differently  on  the  night  of  December  11. 

Q.  What  happened  on  the  night  of  December  11?  A.  I  was 
beaten  up  then. 

ARBITRARY  ORDERS  GIVEN  PEDESTRIANS  BY 
MILITARY 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Before  that,  may  I  ask  you,  Mr. 
Witness,  whether  you  were  interfered  with?  Were  you  allowed  to 
make  purchases  and  go  about  the  ordinary  business  of  the  town, 
after  you  were  held  up  and  accounted  for  yourself?  A.  Many 
times  we  were  ordered  back  to  the  ship.  Many  times,  if  you  were 
going  in  one  direction,  you  would  be  told  to  go  in  another. 

Q.  Arbitrarily,  without  any  rhyme  or  reason?  A.  Of  course 
they  would  not  give  you  a  reason.  They  would  stop  you,  halt  you. 
Sometimes  there  was  a  flock  of  them.  There  would  be  four  or  six 
different  guards,  too,  at  each  corner  of  the  crossing,  and  they  would 
hold  up  and  search  everybody.  You  would  have  to  wait  your  turn 
with  your  hands  up  above  your  head.  And  eight  minutes  is  quite 
a  bit. 

Q.  They  would  be  in  a  military  uniform,  a  black  uniform,  or 
some  other  kind?  A.  Yes,  different.  Some  were  in  Highland 
uniform,  with  a  tam-o'shanter  cap.  Others  would  have  black  caps, 
brown  slickers,  and  others  just  soft  caps  and  regular  yellow  slickers. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  regular  soldiers  could  be  distinguished? 
Did  not  the  British  soldiers  wear  khaki  in  Cork?  A.  Yes,  the 
regular  British  soldiers,  they  wore  khaki,  a  good  deal  like  our 
soldiers. 


874 

Q.  The  others,  the  men  who  did  the  holding  up,  were  men 
dressed  in  these  more  or  less  irregular  uniforms?  That  is,  some- 
times with  tam-o'-shanters,  sometimes  in  plain  clothes,  and  some- 
times in  constabulary  uniforms?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Did  the  tam-o'-shanter  men  belong  to  a 
Highland  regiment,  did  you  say?  A.  I  don't  know.  I  don't  know 
how  they  classified  those,  except  I  know  which  are  the  worse,  and 
which  are  the  better. 

WITNESS  SAVAGELY  BEATEN  BY  BRITISH 
MILITARY 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Take  up  December  11th,  and  tell  us  what 
happened.  A.  I  went  to  a  theater  there,  which  has  been  burned 
down  since,  and  got  out.  They  had  the  pictures.  They  had  the 
program  so  that  the  show  would  end  about  nine  o'clock  in  order  to 
give  the  people  time  to  get  back  before  the  curfew  hour.  There 
were  not  many  people  going  to  the  theaters  then  on  account  of  the 
raids  and  things;  but  we  went,  my  partner  and  the  little  friend  he 
had,  and  a  girl  and  myself.  I  had  a  little  Irish  companion  over 
there.  We  went  to  the  theater  and  got  out  about  nine  o'clock.  My 
partner  proceeded  to  take  his  companion  home,  and  I  did  the  same. 
So  we  must  have  parted  about  ten  after  nine,  and  I  crossed  the 
bridge  and  took  my  companion  on  to  her  home.  Shortly  after  we 
proceeded  over  the  bridge,  St.  Patrick's  Bridge  in  Cork,  we  heard 
shots  right  on  the  bridge  there,  and  of  course  it  scared  the  young 
lady,  and  I  will  say  myself  too.  But  anyway,  I  took  her  home  and 
told  her  I  had  better  get  back  to  the  ship,  because  there  might  be 
some  trouble  about  that  evening.  I  left  her  there,  and  started  to  go 
down  along  Camden  Quay,  the  shortest  way  back  to  the  ship,  near 
the  River  Lee  there.  But  she  asked  me  not  to  go  along  the  quay, 
because  we  heard  the  shooting  along  there;  and  she  said  to  go  along 
Quay  Street.     So  after  a  little  argument,  I  went  along  Quay  Street. 

I  got  about  half  way  up  to  King  Street  when  I  was  stopped  by  a 
couple  of  Irishmen  running  down  toward  me,  and  they  said,  "For 
God's  sake  don't  go  up  there.  There  is  hell  to  pay  up  there."  An 
American  does  not  like  to  show  that  they  are  scared  of  the  British, 
so  I  kept  going,  regardless  of  what  they  said.  But,  sure  enough, 
on  the  corner  of  King  and  Patrick  Streets  there  was  a  party  being 
held  up.  I  think  there  were  four  civilians  being  held  up  by  about 
three  or  four  Black-and-Tans.  I  walked  by  them,  and  they  did  not 
seem  to  notice  me.  I  got  about  thirty  feet  beyond  them,  and  two 
or  three  of  the  Britishers  stopped  me — "Halt!  Up  higher!"  They 
were  not  satisfied.  I  had  to  come  forward.  I  thought,  "This  is 
going  to  be  a  little  hold-up.  I  will  just  submit  to  it  and  hurry 
along."     And  I  did  not  make  a  reply,  I  think.     Of  course  they  did 


875 

not  find  any  guns,  but  they  felt  around  and  found  my  wallet,  and 
then  one  of  them  found  my  seaman's  passport.  He  says,  "You  are 
an  American,  are  you?  You  are  a  Yank,  are  you?"  I  says,  "Yes, 
I  am  an  American."  He  says,  "What  are  you  doing  here?"  He 
did  not  use  exactly  that  language.  I  said,  "I  am  off  the  West 
Cannon.  I  am  going  back  there  now."  He  says,  "Yon  are,  are 
you?"  "We  know  you  Americans,"  he  says.  Of  course  there  were 
three  of  them.  All  three  had  their  guns  pressed  up  against  me. 
The  third  one  went  along  up  the  street  to  where  there  was  another 
gang  of  these — there  must  have  been  a  full  score  of  them.  They  had 
just  been  discharged  from  a  lorry  there, — one  of  the  British  trucks 
which  carry  soldiers;  and  there  must  have  been  a  good  score.  I 
heard  them  say  something  about  "Yankee  so  and  so,"  you  know; 
and  the  whole  flock  of  them  came  running  down.  "Where  is  he? 
Where  is  he?"  My  God,  they  came  down  on  me.  I  was  standing 
there  with  my  hands  in  the  air.  The  fellow  that  seemed  to  be  a 
leader  of  the  gang  came  up  to  me  first,  and  he  was  not  dressed  in 
regular  uniform,  but  the  rest  of  the  men  were.  He  had  a  long  black 
overcoat  or  raincoat, — I  did  not  take  particular  notice. 

Senator  Norris:  He  had  probably  just  made  a  raid  and  got  that 
coat. 

The  Witness:  No.  It  seems  he  had  just  got  off  that  lorry.  And 
he  caught  hold  of  my  coat  and  he  says,  "You  are  a  Yank,  are  you?" 
He  grabbed  me,  and  I  said,  "Yes."  I  don't  know  whether  I  did  say 
yes  or  not,  because  I  got  smashed  in  the  face  then,  with  my  hands 
over  my  head.  I  noticed  he  had  brass  kunckles  on.  Perhaps  you 
know  what  they  are,  regular  brass  knuckles  to  protect  his  knuckles. 
So  I  did  not  have  much  time.  He  proceeded  to  tear  the  things  right 
out  of  my  pockets;  right  and  left  he  tore  the  things  out  of  my 
pockets.  And  when  I  got  back  I  did  not  even  have  my  cuff  buttons. 
They  took  my  fountain  pen,  my  comb,  every  paper  I  had,  except 
two  little  cards  from  Blarney  Castle. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  They  did  not  help  any  that  night,  did  they? 

REPEATEDLY  KICKED  AND  KNOCKED  DOWN 

A.  Well,  after  beating  me  up,  they  knocked  me  down  several 
times,  kicked  me,  made  me  get  up.  I  was  knocked  out  once.  My 
head  hit  the  sidewalk  pretty  hard,  and  I  was  knocked  out.  But  they 
kicked  me  until  I  came  to.  They  were  not  satisfied  with  that.  And 
they  would  make  me  run — they  would  halt  me  and  make  me  come 
back.  Of  course,  I  knew  when  I  came  back  I  would  be  hit  again, 
with  my  hands  over  my  head.  He  says,  "Now,  what  have  you  to 
say  for  yourself?"     I  don't  know  why  I  said  it,  but  I  said,  "Please 

let  me  go."     So  he  says,  "Don't  please  me,  you  ,"  and  they 

backed  me  up  against  the  wall.     So  I  did  not  know  what  they  were 


876 

going  to  do.  They  held  me  there  for  a  little  while.  There  were 
about  eight  of  them.  I  don't  know  where  the  rest  of  them  went. 
There  must  have  been  about  eight  of  them.  The  leader  says,  "Rope 
him."  He  says,  "Now,  sing  your  Yankee  song,"  although  he  classi- 
fied it  a  little  differently.  I  didn't  sing  any  Yankee  song,  though. 
He  told  me  to  slide  on;  and  after  I  started  to  slide  on,  he  kicked 
me  and  called  me  back  again.  Of  course  this  is  close  to  the  end. 
So  he  hit  me  again,  probably  several  times. 

Q.  Did  he  hit  you  in  the  face?  A.  Oh,  yes.  My  face  was  all 
bruised,  and  I  had  a  big  cut  down  the  side.  MacSwiney  can  tell 
you  that.  Well,  I  had  marks  all  over  the  body  when  I  got  back  to 
the  ship.  I  asked  him  then  whether  he  would  let  me  pick  up  my 
belongings  that  were  around  the  street,  and  I  got  a  kick  for  that. 
He  told  me  to  run  or  he  would  shoot  me.  I  did  not  exactly  run, 
but  I  got  away  from  him.  I  was  halted  about  two  hundred  feet  of 
them  by  just  a  few  of  them,  and  I  told  them,  "For  God's  sake  let  me 
go.     I  have  just  been  held  up." 

AMERICAN  CONSUL  UNABLE  TO  SECURE  REDRESS 

I  got  back  and  I  told  the  captain  about  it.  So  he  said  he  would 
go  to  the  American  Consul  with  me  the  following  day.  That  was  on 
a  Saturday  night,  and  Sunday,  of  course,  we  could  not  go.  On 
Monday  the  captain  was  busy,  so  we  did  not  go  down  there  until 
Tuesday.  That  was  Tuesday,  the  14th  of  December.  So  the  captain 
took  me  down  to  Queenstown  to  the  American  Consul,  and  I  told 
him  about  it,  and  he  had  me  swear  to  a  detailed  statement. 

Q.  What  was  the  American  Consul's  name?  A.  Mr.  Mason 
Mitchell.  He  had  me  swear  to  a  detailed  statement,  and  he  said  he 
would  try  as  far  as  he  could  to  get  my  papers,  as  if  that  was  the 
main  thing.  Of  course,  I  told  them  it  was  not  so  much  the  papers 
as  it  was  protecting  an  American  seaman  when  he  came  to  port. 
Probably  the  next  one  would  get  killed.  I  don't  know,  but  he  did 
not  listen  to  that.  The  next  day  he  came  on  board  the  ship  and 
told  me  he  had  sent  a  telegram  to  a  General  Strickland,  and  this 
General  Strickland  has  sent  him  a  reply  stating  it  would  be  impos- 
sible to  find  out  the  culprits  on  account  of  the  evidence  I  gave  them 
and  the  description  of  their  clothes.  Furthermore,  they  had  left 
the  town, — something  to  that  effect.    And  that  has  been  the  end  of  it. 

Q.  Did  the  American  Consul  give  you  a  paper  then  to  explain? 
A.     Yes,  he  gave  me  a  note. 

Q.     Have  you  it  there?     A.     Yes,  I  believe  I  have. 

Mr.  Manly :  This  is  a  letter  signed  by  Mason  Mitchell,  dated  Cork, 
Ireland,  December  15,  1920,  addressed  to  the  Commissioner  of 
Immigration,  Newport  News,  Virginia.      (Reading): 


877 


'"Sir:  I  have  to  inform  you  that  Emil  Pczolt,  oiler  on  the  steamship 
West  Cannon,  was  held  up  by  the  patrol  in  the  City  of  Cork,  Ireland, 
on  the  evening  of  December  11,  1920.  They  assaulted  him  without 
any  provocation,  beat  him,  and  took  from  him  his  passport  and  dis- 
charge papers.  I  have  taken  the  matter  up  with  the  general  in  com- 
mand of  the  district,  but  up  to  the  time  of  the  sailing  of  the  West 
Cannon  have  been  unable  to  have  the  papers  restored,  on  account  of 
the  police  who  perpetrated   this   act  have   left   Cork. 

"I   am,  sir,  your  obedient  servant, 

(Signed)     "Mason  Mitchell,  American  Consul." 

ROBBED  OF  ALL  MONEY  AND  PAPERS 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  they  take  your  money?  A.  I  had  a 
few  pounds  and  a  ten-dollar  American  note  on  me. 

Q.     Did  they  take  that?     A.     They  took  everything  I  had. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  know  how  many  pounds,  approxi- 
mately? A.  About  four  or  five.  It  was  not  more  than  twenty 
dollars  in  British  money  and  ten  dollars  in  American  money. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  had  about  thirty  dollars  that  they  took 
away  from  you?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  Also  your  papers?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     And  also  the  wallet? 

COMPLAINT   FILED   WITH  SECRETARY   OF  STATE 

A.  Yes.  This  (indicating)  is  the  letter  I  wrote  to  the  State 
Department. 

Q.  This  is  the  complaint  you  filed  with  the  State  Department? 
A.  Well,  I  was  not  sure  whether  the  American  Consul  had  done 
anything  in  regard  to  the  matter;  whether  he  had  really  done  any- 
thing, because  seamen  know  better  than  citizens  do  that  many  Amer- 
ican consuls  really  don't  care;  that  they  would  not  do  anything 
against  an  English  sailor  or  anything  against  the  English,  it  seems 
to  me,  because  it  is  known  that  if  you  ask  any  American  sailor,  he 
will  tell  you  the  same  thing.    It  is  known  all  through  the  world. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Is  Mr.  Mitchell  an  Englishman  or  an  Amer- 
ican? A.  I  was  not  sure.  I  wanted  to  find  out  whether  the  State 
Department  of  Washington  had  ever  heard  about  it,  so  I  wrote  this 
letter. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  This  is  a  detailed  statement  you  filed  at  that 
time?  It  is  addressed  to  the  Honorable  Secretary  of  State,  Wash- 
ington, D.  C. 

Senator  Norris:  I  do  not  believe  I  would  read  it. 

Chairman  Wood:  I  do  not  believe  there  is  any  advantage  in  that. 
Did  the  witness  see  anything  of  any  fire?  Is  he  going  to  describe 
what  he  saw  in  Cork? 

Mr.  Manly:  Yes,  sir.     We  will  take  that  up  right  away. 


878 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  are  not  an  Irishman,  are  you?  A.  Hardly. 
I  am  an  American. 

Q.  What  was  the  nationality  of  your  father?  A.  My  father  was 
French,  although  at  the  time  he  got  his  citizen  papers  from  the 
States  here,  Alsace  was  under  the  German  rule.  But  my  father's 
ancestors  were  all  French.     The  name  Pezolt  is  a  French  name. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Of  course  he  had  to  give  his  nationality  as 
German  when  he  got  his  papers?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  you  wear  any  kind  of  uniform? 
A.    No,  sir. 

Q.     You  were  in  ordinary  civilian  clothes?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

THE  BURNING  OF  CORK 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  see  the  burning  of  Cork?  A.  The  big 
burning  of  Cork,  where  it  burned  the  most,  was  that  night  I  got 
beat  up.  It  was  shortly  after  I  got  back  to  the  ship.  Some  of  the 
fellows  on  deck  discovered  the  flames  in  the  city.  We  noticed  them 
first  on  one  side  of  the  city  and  then  on  the  other  side  of  the  city. 
We  noticed  it  was  larger  than  usual.  Many  of  the  fellows  stayed 
up  that  night  and  watched  it.  It  must  have  started  about  11  o'clock, 
December  11th. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  You  had  gone  to  bed  and  did  not  see  it? 
A.     I  saw  the  beginning  of  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  you  go  into  the  city  the  next  morning?  A. 
No.  The  captain,  the  first  mate,  the  second  mate,  the  chief  engineer, 
— in  fact,  almost  all  the  officers  went  up.  They  were  in  full  uni- 
form, and  went  up  to  find  the  damage  that  had  been  done  to  the 
City  Hall.  We  noticed  the  City  Hall  still  burning  Sunday  morning. 
They  got  up  to  the  City  Hall  and  were  ordered  right  back,  regardless 
of  being  Americans.  There  were  about  a  dozen  young  soldiers,  the 
mates  told  me,  that  ran  them  back  with  bayonets.  I  think  the  captain 
felt  a  couple  of  them,  and  he  was  pretty  angry  when  he  got  back. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  mean  he  felt  a  couple  of  the  bayonets? 
A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  saw  the  ruins  of  various  places,  did  you 
not?  A.  I  did  not  go  ashore  that  morning,  but  in  the  afternoon 
my  partner,  Pete  Henderson,  and  myself  went  up  town  to  find  out 
what  had  really  happened  up  there;  and  we  saw  that  all  of  Patrick 
Street,  the  main  street  in  Cork,  had  burned  out.  If  any  of  you  saw 
San  Francisco  after  the  earthquake,  you  know  how  Patrick  Street 
looked. 

Q.  Were  you  in  San  Francisco  during  the  earthquake?  A.  I 
saw  the  ruins  a  year  after. 

Q.  And  Cork  looked  about  like  San  Francisco  looked  after  the 
earthquake?     A.     Just  the  same. 


879 

Mr.  Manly:  I  think  that  is  all,  unless  there  are  some  further 
questions. 

Chairman  Wood :  All  right.     Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Manly:  There  are  three  sailors  here  from  the  West  Cannon 
that  I  would  like  to  put  on  for  a  moment  or  two. 

Chairman  Wood:  Very  well. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HENRY  TURK 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  is  your  full  name?     A.     Henry  Turk. 
Q.     Where  were  you  born?     A.     San  Francisco. 
Q.     How  old  are  you?     A.     Twenty-six. 
Q.     You  are  a  sailor  on  the  West  Cannon?     A.     Yes,  sir. 
Q.     What  is  you  position?     A.     I  am  a  messman,  steward's  de- 
partment. 

PEZOLT  BADLY  BEATEN  AND  BRUISED 

Q.  Were  you  on  the  West  Cannon  at  the  same  time  that  Mr. 
Pezolt  was?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  vou  were  in  Cork  during  the  time  he  mentioned?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Pezolt  on  the  evening  when  he  returned? 
A.     I  just  happened  to  be  in  the  mess  room  the  moment  he  returned. 

Q.  What  was  his  condition?  A.  He  was  very  much  bruised 
and  cut  up.  His  clothes  were  soiled  from  probably  being  dragged 
around  the  street.  He  had  several  cuts  in  the  face,  and  on  his  cheek 
was  a  large  smear  of  dirt  from  his  having  probably  been  dragged 
along  the  street,  and  his  face  also  touched  the  ground. 

BURNING  OF  CORK  AN  EXPECTED  CLIMAX 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  flames  that  evening  of  the  burning  of  Cork? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  saw  them  probably  the  first  time  they  were  dis- 
covered on  the  ship.  I  remained  awake  until  about  one  o'clock,  and 
the  whole  sky  was  lit  up,  not  only  from  the  main  place  in  Cork 
itself,  but  also  a  reflection  in  the  sky  from  the  place  in  Dillon's 
Corner,  the  outskirts  of  the  town. 

Q.  The  place  at  Dillon's  Corner  started  burning  that  evening? 
A.  About  8  o'clock.  I  happened  to  be  up  in  the  crow's  nest,  and 
watched  it  for  an  hour.  We  were  more  or  less  excited,  and  watched 
it  an  hour. 

Q.  Had  you  been  out  in  the  city  that  night?  A.  I  had  returned 
about  8  o'clock. 

Q.  Was  there  any  excitement  in  the  streets  of  the  city  at  that 
time?     A.     The  way  things  had  been  going  the  previous  week,  it 


380 

looked  like  there  was  some  sort  of  a  climax  coming  along.  Every- 
body was  being  held  up  and  terrorized  more  or  less  generally.  I 
remember  that  I  was  keeping  a  little  note  book,  and  I  remember 
writing  that  afternoon  that  things  probably  had  come  to  a  climax; 
and  sure  enough  they  did.  The  people  were  all  more  or  less  terri- 
fied that  night;  and  not  wishing  to  be  in  any  trouble  myself,  I  re- 
turned to  the  ship  early.  About  nine  the  rest  of  the  crew  began 
coming  back  and  relating  their  different  experineces  in  town.  It 
was  at  that  time  that  I  saw  Mr.  Pezolt. 

GIRL  SHOT  IN  WANTON  FIRING  ON  STREET 

Q.  Had  you  yourself  had  any  experiences?  A.  Well,  I  have 
had  quite  a  number  of  experiences  over  there.  The  thing  that  in- 
terested me  most  was  that  one  evening  a  friend  of  mine  and  myself 
were  in  Evans'  book  store  on  Patrick  Street,  the  main  book  store  in 
town,  about  six-thirty,  buying  some  books.  After  buying  some 
books,  we  left  and  walked  down  the  street.  And  about  seven  o'clock, 
just  about  an  hour  later,  a  lorry, — I  am  not  quite  sure  whether  of 
Black-and-Tans  or  just  the  military, — in  passing  by  they  opened  up 
their  machine  gun,  right  on  the  store.  As  it  happened,  fortunately, 
there  was  only  one  little  girl  standing  there,  and  she  was  shot  be- 
hind the  ear.  We  had  heard  of  the  firing,  so  we  came  back  and 
looked  in  one  of  the  plate-glass  windows.  We  counted  seven  bullet 
holes,  and  each  one  was  on  the  level  of  the  body  of  a  person  coming 
along  the  street.  It  seemed  to  me  that  not  only  had  they  shot  in  the 
store,  but  this  store  was  on  the  corner,  and  they  had  probably  shot 
down  the  side  street  too. 

Q.  Was  there  any  account  in  the  newspapers  of  occurrences 
of  that  sort?  Did  you  see  any  account  of  this  particular  case?  A. 
To  the  best  of  my  memory  I  believe  there  was,  yes. 

Q.  You  think  there  was  of  this  case?  A.  I  believe  there  was 
some  account  of  it.  Of  course,  they  cannot  go  into  details  in  the 
newspaper  accounts.  They  just  mentioned  the  shooting  on  Patrick 
Street,  a  little  girl  shot. 

Q.     No  statement  of  who  did  the  shooting?     A.     No. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Was  the  little  girl  killed?  A.  No,  she  was 
shot  in  the  ear,  and  taken  to  the  infirmary,  and  her  wound  was 
declared  not  to  be  serious. 

CORK  LIKE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AFTER  FIRE 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  you  go  up  into  Cork  the  morning  fol- 
lowing the  fire?  A.  The  first  opportunity  I  had  to  go  ashore  was 
about  eight-thirty,  right  after  breakfast.  I  went  ashore  and  walked 
around  town,  different  places,  until  eleven-thirty.     Then  I  returned, 


881 

and  went  out  and  stayed  until  about  four;  and  then  went  up  in  the 
evening  again.     I  wanted  to  see  all  I  could  see. 

Q.  What  did  you  see  generally?  A.  Mr.  Pezolt  mentioned  the 
fact  of  it  appearing  like  the  San  Francisco  fire.  1  happened  to  be 
in  San  Francisco  at  the  fire  and  immediately  after,  and  that  is  about 
the  best  description  you  can  give  of  it.  The  streets  were  just  a  mass 
of  ruins  and  debris.  The  tram  lines  were  unable  to  run.  There  was 
no  gas  or  electricity  in  the  city  for  several  days  following. 

CIVILIANS   PATROL  RUINS 

Q.  Was  the  city  being  patrolled  at  the  time  you  went  up  there? 
A.  I  should  imagine  there  were  about  25  of  the  Royal  Irish,  but 
they  made  no  effort  to  keep  people  away  from  falling  ruins.  They 
just  stood  around  with  their  guns  in  their  arms.  And  about  two- 
thirty  that  afternoon  I  was  walking  along  South  Mall,  and  there 
was  quite  a  crowd  collected.  An  ambulance  came  along  and  took 
away  a  man  who  had  been  either  killed  or  very  seriously  hurt  by 
falling  ruins.  But  there  was  no  one  around  to  guard  those  ruins  at 
all,  except  some  of  the  civilians  themselves.  They  just  appointed 
themselves  as  more  or  less  policemen  and  guards  around  the  ruins 
to  warn  people,  away. 

Q.     That  is,  civilians  of  Cork?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

A  CONTRAST  IN  RESPECT   FOR  DEAD 

There  is  just  one  thing  I  would  like  to  mention,  if  1  could.  And 
that  is,  the  most  pathetic  thing  I  remember  in  Cork  in  connection 
with  the  killing  of  the  people  over  there  is  that  they  usually  com- 
bine the  funerals.  There  are  three  or  four  of  the  men  buried  at  one 
time;  and  the  bodies  are  carried  along  the  streets  on  the  shoulders 
of  their  comrades.  They  are  draped  with  the  Republican  colors. 
Following  the  bodies  come  the  mourners,  the  relatives,  and  probably 
the  members  of  their  society.  Then  immediately  following  that  is 
an  armored  car  with  machine  guns,  and  three  or  four  lorries  of 
heavily  armed  men.  Each  one  has  got  a  trench  helmet  on,  and  guns 
all  leveled  at  the  people  on  the  sidewalk  and  the  corners.  That  is 
not  an  exception.  Every  funeral  I  have  seen  was  carried  on  that 
way. 

Q.  And  you  saw  several  funerals?  A.  I  saw  about  half  a 
dozen.  I  saw  four  men  buried  at  one  time,  three  at  another,  and  I 
saw  at  different  times  two  each. 

Q.  These  are  the  funerals  of  Republicans  that  you  are  speaking 
of  now?  A.  Yes,  sir.  It  seems  to  me  it  is  generally  considered 
that  we  can  show  respect  to  the  dead,  no  matter  under  what  condi- 
tions, or  what  feelings  you  have  had  for  them.  But  no  respect  is 
shown  that  way  at  all.     And  as  a  contrast,  when  the  16  men,  I  be- 


882 

lieve  it  was,  that  were  ambushed  at  Macroom  were  shipped  away 
from  Cork,  I  saw  the  bodies  placed  on  the  ships  in  the  harbor,  the 
British  men-of-war;  and  the  people  of  Cork,  I  think  voluntarily, 
declared  a  holiday  in  respect  to  these  Black-and-Tans  who  were 
shot;  and  from  11  to  2  every  shop,  every  business  place,  was  closed, 
and  the  people  along  the  streets,  either  Irish  Republicans  or  just 
the  plain  people,  the  plain  citizens  of  the  town,  as  the  bodies  were 
carried  past  each  one  doffed  his  hat  until  the  body  had  passed.  That 
is  just  a  contrast. 

Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  other  questions? 

The  Chairman:  No,  that  is  all.     Thank  you  very  much. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HAROLD  JOHNSON 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  is  your  name?     A.    Harold  Johnson. 

Q.     Where  were  you  born?     A.    Bucks  County,  Pennsylvania. 

Q.     Were  you  on  the  West  Cannon?    A.     I  was. 

Q.  While  it  was  docked  in  Cork?  A.  Yes,  all  the  time  we  were 
in  Cork. 

Q.  Did  you  go  about  the  city  a  great  deal?  A.  Yes,  especially 
in  the  daytime.  I  was  night  watchman  from  12  midnight  until  8 
A.  M.,  and  I  spent  most  of  the  day  in  the  city,  and  sometimes  after 
dark,  but  not  very  often, — generally  during  the  day.  And  I  often 
walked  in  the  country  as  well  and  talked  with  the  people  in  the 
surrounding  country. 

SINN  FEIN  NOT  A  CLASS  MOVEMENT 
Q.  What  was  your  purpose  in  making  these  inquiries?  A.  I 
wanted  to  learn  all  I  could  about  the  movement  in  every  way.  I 
wanted  to  find  out  if  it  was,  as  I  was  given  to  understand,  something 
connected  with  Bolshevism.  That  was  the  impression  I  gained  from 
reading  the  papers  before  going  there.  I  wanted  to  see  if  that  was 
it,  or  if  it  was  a  movement  in  which  the  people  took  part.  As  far 
as  I  could  see, — and  I  talked  with  shopkeepers  more  than  anyone 
else,  and  in  the  warehouses, — the  poor  people  were  not  more  in- 
clined toward  Sinn  Fein  than  the  shopkeepers,  I  should  think.  There 
would  have  been  trouble  sure,  because  the  shopkeepers  were  very 
strongly — they  certainly  were  anti-English,  at  any  rate,  and  Sinn 
Feiners,  and  the  farmers  as  well. 

Q.  It  was  not  a  class  movement  as  you  saw  it?  A.  No,  I  should 
say  certainly  not. 

Q.  Did  you  find  any  Bolshevism?  A.  No,  not  from  what  I 
heard  of  the  movement,  I  do  not  think  there  was, — apparently  none. 
It  was  simply  anti-English.  As  I  understand,  the  word  Sinn  Fein 
means  "Ourselves  alone";  and  they  thought  they  could  rule  the 
country  better  than  the  English  could,  and  under  the  Irish  flag. 


883 

NO  JUSTIFICATION  FOR  REPRISALS  AT  DILLON'S 
CORNERS 

Q.  Did  you  go  down  and  look  at  the  houses  at  Dillon's  Corners? 
A.  I  was  there  twice,  once  Sunday  afternoon, — that  is,  Sunday, 
the  12th  of  December;  and  once  on  Tuesday,  the  14th  of  December; 
the  first  time  in  company  with  Mr.  Turk  and  Mr.  Taylor  here,  and 
one  other  man.  We  simply  passed  through.  At  that  time  the  ruins 
were  still  smoking.  Two  days  following  we  had  a  chance  to  make  a 
more  extensive  investigation. 

Q.  What  did  you  find  out  as  the  result  of  your  investigation ? 
A.  On  both  occasions  we  tried  to  get  the  people  to  talk,  but  they 
were  badly  scared  and  would  hardly  talk.  But  they  denied  there 
had  been  any  ambush.  From  the  version  I  heard  from  three  differ- 
ent people, — one  a  man.  one  little  girl,  and  one  a  lady, — they  all 
claimed  that  the  bomb  had  exploded  in  the  lorry  accidentally  as  it 
was  passing  a  vacant  lot.  Whereas  the  version  which  was  given  in 
the  Cork  paper,  in  the  British  report,  was  that  the  lorry  slowed  up 
for  a  turn  there,  at  the  corner,  and  that  more  than  one  bomb  was 
hurled  from  behind  a  stone  wall,  and  one  man  was  killed  and  eight 
wounded.  At  any  rate,  there  were  six  houses  burned,  four  of  them, 
say,  within  twenty  yards  of  the  place  where  this  ambush  was  sup- 
posed to  have  occurred.  That  is  about  as  near  as  there  were  any 
hpuses  to  it.  Around  the  corner,  on  the  other  side  of  the  right 
angle,  about  150  yards  from  the  place  where  the  ambush  was  said  to 
have  occurred,  two  others  were  burned.  These  were  larger  houses 
than  the  others.  I  could  not  see  what  connection  those  two  houses 
could  possibly  have  with  the  affair.  They  could  not  overlook  the 
road,  and  it  seemed  to  me  they  could  have  no  connection  at  all.  As 
I  stood  around  on  the  other  side  of  the  right  angle  Tuesday  after- 
noon I  heard  a  lorry  coming,  and  almost  immediately  I  heard  a 
shot  fired.  Some  children  were  playing  on  the  corner,  and  they  ran 
into  the  houses,  and  women  too.  The  lorry  came  around  the  corner 
full  tilt.  There  were  soldiers  with  trench  helmets  on.  They  were 
brandishing  their  rifles  and  laughing. 

I  talked  with  the  ladies  there,  too.  After  they  found  out  I  was 
an  American  they  were  willing  to  talk,  and  one  of  them  said  her 
husband  had  been  arrested  as  soon  as  the  ambush  occurred,  and  had 
only  got  loose  the  preceding  day;  but  several  others  had  not  come 
back  yet.  They  had  been  arrested  and  were  still  under  arrest  at 
that  time.  The  impression  I  got  was  they  had  certainly  done  a 
thorough  job  in  terrorizing  the  people  in  that  district. 

GENERAL  DEMOLITION  IN  QUEENSTOWN 
Q.     Did  you  go  down  to  Queenstown?     A.     The  fourth  of  De- 
cember I  went  down  there. 

Q.     What  did  you  see  as  to  the  condition  in  Queenstown?     A.     I 


884 

walked  along  the  street  fronting  the  quay.  I  should  say,  rather, 
there  were  two  or  three  streets  that  fronted  the  quay,  and  I  counted 
thirty-two  shop  fronts  that  were  more  or  less  damaged  there.  I 
was  told  before  I  left  that  this  damage  had  taken  place  about  a 
month  before,  and  they  could  have  had  time  to  repair  it  had  they 
ever  intended  to,  or  had  the  means  to  repair  it.  But  the  shops  were 
in  bad  condition.  Some  of  them  had  been  patched  up  in  a  fashion, 
and  some  not  at  all.  I  did  not  go  into  any,  but  you  could  look  past 
the  shop  front  and  you  could  see  the  show  cases  in  some  cases 
smashed.  The  damage  had  been  very  extensive.  It  was  just  a 
hasty  investigation.  As  I  say,  I  counted  thirty-two  shop  fronts  that 
had  been  damaged,  some  of  them  apparently  by  bullets  and  others 
by  the  butts  of  guns.  At  any  rate,  they  were  completely  smashed. 
They  seemed  to  have  done  a  great  deal  of  shooting.  Also,  some  of 
the  street  lamps  were  smashed. 

Q.  The  town  generally  was  in  a  state  of  wreck?  A.  Well,  the 
shops  were,  yes,  sir,  and  the  street  lamps.  Otherwise,  not  so  bad. 
I  understood  there  was  no  curfew  in  Queenstown.  but  quite  a  few 
people  were  getting  hurt,  and  in  some  cases  killed,  from  time  to 
time. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  proportion  of  the  shop  windows  were 
injured  in  any  way?  A.  I  should  say  a  third,  anyhow.  They  had 
not  taken  every  one;  but  I  should  say  a  third. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  In  how  many  blocks  would  you  say  those  thirty- 
two  were  smashed?  A.  They  do  not  go  very  much  by  blocks  there. 
The  streets  are  irregular.     I  don't  know  how  you  would  figure  it. 

Q.  Was  it  in  half  a  mile?  A.  Yes,  in  about  half  a  mile,  I 
guess.  The  street  winds  along  the  waterfront.  That  was  the  most 
noticeable  thing  about  Queenstown. 

DAILY  HOLDUPS  ON  STREETS  OF  CORK 

I  saw  some  Highlanders,  soldiers  with  steel  helmets  on,  the  Mon- 
day I  got  off  the  train.  They  were  standing  in  the  middle  of  the 
street.  I  did  not  see  any  Black-and-Tans  until  the  week  beginning 
the  5th  of  December,  or  the  6th,  I  should  say.  And  on  Monday  of 
that  week  I  first  noticed  them  holding  people  up  in  the  street.  1 
had  heard  a  great  deal  of  it,  but  never  saw  it  before.  Every  day 
that  week  I  would  go  out  about  3:30  in  the  afternoon.  This  holding 
up  would  start  at  that  time,  and  I  made  it  a  point  to  be  out  on  the 
streets  at  that  time  to  see  it.  You  could  see  them  going  around  and 
holding  them  up.  The  Black-and-Tans  wore  uniforms  of  a  tam-o'- 
shanter  cap;  they  had  either  puttees  or  high  shoes  and  a  sort  of 
khaki  trousers,  something  like  that;  sometimes  ulsters  and  long 
coats.  They  went  about  the  streets  in  twos.  There  would  be  two 
here,  and  then  twenty  yards  ahead  two  others,  and  so  on.     They 


885 

did  not  always  point  their  revolvers  or  pistols  directly  at  the  people, 
but  they  had  them  in  their  hands  ready.  I  saw  one  of  them  who 
carried  a  bomb.  This  was  kept  up  every  day  of  the  week  preceding 
the  fire,  as  well  as  putting  threatening  notices  in  the  paper.  I  saw 
one  case  where  a  man  with  an  unusually  large  automatic  held  up 
about  20  people  while  another  searched  them.  I  saw  at  the  same 
time  some  of  the  Royal  Irish  form  a  blockade  at  Washington  Street, 
apparently  for  no  reason.  I  came  up  to  one  end  of  the  street  and 
was  told  I  could  not  go  past;  and  I  turned  back  and  walked  two 
blocks  and  went  right  past.  One  would  not  let  me  through,  but  the 
other  did  not  stop  me. 

Personally  I  was  never  searched  myself.  I  have  been  turned  back 
many  times,  but  I  have  not  been  searched,  probably  because  I  did 
not  come  out  after  dark  very  much.  The  other  men  on  the  ship, 
nearly  all  of  them,  went  at  one  time  or  another  out  after  dark. 

Q.  You  were  on  night  duty  and  could  not  get  away?  A.  1 
could  have  got  away. 

Q.  You  liked  to  watch  the  excitement  during  the  daytime,  and 
not  at  night?     A.    Yes. 

PEZOLT  BATTERED  BY  ASSAILANTS 

Q.  Did  you  see  Pezolt  the  evening  he  came  in?  A.  No,  I  did 
not.  I  saw  him  the  next  day,  and  he  had  a  scar  about  four  inches 
long. 

Q.  You  mean  a  cut?  A.  A  cut  here  (indicating).  And  he 
showed  me  his  suit,  and  it  looked  as  if  it  had  been  thrown  into  a 
mud  puddle.  I  was  asleep  and  did  not  see  him  that  night.  I  was 
down  town  until  about  6:30  that  evening.  I  went  to  sleep,  and  1 
got  up  when  I  heard  the  fires.  I  got  up  once  and  went  to  bed  again, 
and  got  up  again  about  1 :30  in  the  morning. 

WRECKED  SHOPS  POORLY  PROTECTED  FROM 
LOOTING 

We  went  to  town  about  9  o'clock  in  the  morning,  I  and  this  gen- 
tleman and  Mr.  Taylor  and  one  other.  We  went  up  past  the  burning 
City  Hall.  There  were  two  Royal  Irish  who  questioned  us,  but  let 
us  pass,  and  then  we  went  to  the  center  of  the  town.  First  we  went 
to  King  Street,  and  we  could  see  where  they  had  gone  along  the 
street  the  night  before.  You  could  see  numbers  of  bullet  holes. 
We  visited  a  jewelry  store,  one  of  the  largest  in  the  town.  I  had 
heard  the  night  before  it  had  been  smashed  into,  and  it  evidently 
had  by.  the  state  of  it,  and  about  half  the  contents  carried  away. 
When  we  were  there  nobody  was  molesting  the  jewelry  store.  On 
Patrick  Street,  no  guards  were  there,  only  perhaps  30  of  the  Royal 
Irish  were  on  duty  to  guard  about  live  acres  of  property,  places 


886 

that  had  been  burned  and  looted,  and  so  forth.  On  the  back  street 
there  were  civilians, — I  heard  later  they  were  Sinn  Fein  special 
police.  They  had  no  badge  of  authority  or  arms  of  any  kind.  They 
kept  the  people  back  from  the  burning  walls.  There  were  no 
barricades  stretched  except  what  they  stretched  themselves.  The 
Royal  Irish  did  the  best  they  could,  but  25  men  could  not  do  much. 

Q.  There  were  no  troops  that  day  to  protect  the  property  from 
looting?  A.  I  believe  they  came  about  12:30,  but  only  on  St. 
Patrick's  Street.  On  King  Street  and  the  side  streets  near  Patrick 
Street  there  were  no  troops.  They  guarded  Patrick  Street  thor- 
oughly, and  the  real  danger  from  looting  and  from  falling  walls 
was  on  the  side  streets.  I  walked  along  the  shop  fronts,  and  it  would 
have  been  easy  to  carry  away  valuable  stuff  if  a  man  wanted  to, — 
valuable  stuff  that  would  be  needed  by  poor  people,  such  as  clothing 
of  all  kinds  and  food  stuffs;  but  no  one  did  it. 

Q.  You  saw  no  looting?  A.  I  saw  no  looting.  I  was  along  that 
street  several  times  for  two  hours,  and  I  saw  no  looting  of  any  kind. 

Mr.  Manly:  That  is  all,  unless  the  Commission  has  some  questions. 

Chairman  Wood:  That  is  all.     Thank  you  very  much. 


TESTIMONY  OF  RALPH  TAYLOR 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  is  your  full  name?     A.     Ralph  Taylor. 
Q.     Where  were  you  born?     A.     Scott  Township,  Pennsylvania. 
Q.     How  old  are  you?     A.     Twenty-two  the  seventh  of  last  July. 
Q.     You  are  a  sailor  on  the  West  Cannon?     A.     I  was  officers' 
mess  man. 

PEZOLT  BADLY  BATTERED 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Pezolt  when  he  returned  to  the  ship  that 
evening?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did.  I  was  right  on  deck  at  the  head  of 
the  gang  plank  when  he  came  on. 

Q.  What  was  his  condition?  A.  His  condition  was  as  he  has 
stated.  There  was  a  long  scar  down  the  side  of  his  face.  The  back 
of  his  head  was  bruised.  There  was  dirt  along  his  cheek.  His 
clothes  were  all  mussed  up,  dirty.  There  were  about  half  a  dozen 
boys  on  deck  discussing  what  had  taken  place  in  the  evening,  and  we 
saw  him  come  walking  down  on  the  quay  pretty  fast.  He  came  up 
the  gang  plank  and  he  said,  "Well,  I  got  mine  tonight."  And  he  told 
us  what  had  happened,  and  went  right  up  and  told  the  captain.  The 
captain  kept  him  up  there  five  or  six  minutes,  as  near  as  I  could 
tell,  and  he  came  down  and  went  aft. 


887 


HOLDUPS  AND  AGENTS  PROVOCATEURS  ON 
STREETS 

Q.  Were  you  held  up  and  searched  yourself  while  you  were  in 
Cork?     A.    Yes,  sir,  I  have  been  held  up  and  searched. 

Q.  Was  this  in  the  evening;,  at  night  only?  A.  No,  sir.  Any 
time  from  3.30  or  4  o'clock  you  could  find  them  on  the  streets.  The 
postoffice  seemed  to  be  their  general  place.  You  could  never  tell 
when  they  would  hold  you  up,  though.  Half  the  time  they  might  be 
in  uniform,  and  a  part  of  the  time  in  civilian  clothes.  You  could 
never  tell  who  you  were  talking  to.  Several  times  men  have  come 
up  to  me  and  started  running  down  the  British  Government,  and 
tried  to  get  me  to  state  my  opinions,  just  to  get  you  to  tell  what  you 
think  about  it,  and  they  keep  track  of  you  until  they  get  an  oppor- 
tunity to  take  it  up. 

Q.  You  sav  men  came  up  to  you  and  started  talking  about  the 
British  Government?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Disrespectfully?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Never  had  seen  them  be- 
fore at  all.  The  Irish  people  that  were  there,  you  would  see  them 
going  around — they  would  come  up.  If  they  spoke  to  you  at  all — 
they  can  recognize  an  American  as  far  as  they  can  see  them — and 
they  would  start  to  say,  "Is  not  this  terrible?  Is  not  this  awful?" 
and  get  you  to  sympathize  with  them.  But  these  British  police 
there,  the  Black-and-Tans,  whoever  they  happened  to  be,  would  just 
come  up  and  start  to  run  down  the  British  Limey. 

Q.  What  is  a  British  Limey?  A.  British  sailors  are  known  as 
British  Limeys. 

Q.  American  sailors  call  them  Limeys?  A.  Not  all.  Limie — 
Limo — from  lime  juice,  I  guess. 

YOUNG  GIRLS  HELD  UP  AND  SEARCHED 

Q.  Were  there  any  particular  instances  that  came  to  your 
knowledge  that  you  feel  ought  to  be  put  in  the  record?  A.  I  can- 
not add  much  to  what  the  men  have  said  about  the  general  condition 
in  Cork.  There  were  a  few  instances  I  witnessed.  There  was  a 
dance  hall  called  Mac's  Dance  Hall.  He  had  been  in  the  United 
States  quite  a  while,  and  gone  back  there  and  was  teaching  dancing. 
I  used  to  go  up  there  and  stay  a  couple  of  hours  after  supper. 
Coming  down  one  night,  about  7:30  or  8  o'clock.  I  was  right  at  the 
corner  of  the  street  coming  down  to  the  quay.  About  ten  feet  off 
the  corner  there  were  two  men.  One  of  them  was  back  on  the  curb 
with  a  revolver  in  his  hand  flourishing  it  this  way.  Right  in  front 
of  him  were  three  girls  running  in  age  from  15  to  20  years  old, 
reaching  for  the  sky.  Another  man  was  up  there  feeling  all  over 
their  persons,  searching  them,  making  a  bluff  of  searchiing  them.      I 


888 

don't  know  what  their  object  was.  You  could  tell  by  looking  at  the 
girls  that  they  did  not  have  a  place  to  conceal  a  gun  or  anything. 
It  just  happened  to  be  the  practice,  or  something.  I  don't  know. 
I  stood  there  about  three  minutes  on  the  corner  watching  them.  No 
one  said  a  word  to  me.     They  let  the  girls  go,  and  I  went  on  down. 

PASSPORTS  TAKEN  FROM  AMERICAN  SAILORS 

It  is  nothing  unusual  to  be  walking  along  the  streets  and  hear 
somebody  say,  "Halt!  Put  them  up,  up,  up!"  They  come  up  and 
search  you.  "Well,  it  is  all  right.  We  will  let  it  go  at  searching 
you."  Once  in  a  while  they  would  take  your  watch  out,  take  the  back 
off,  and  examine  the  movements.  They  did  that  with  the  chief 
officer's  watch.  They  will  examine  all  your  papers.  Two  or  three 
of  the  men  had  their  passports  taken,  two  that  I  know  of. 

Q.     One  of  those  two  was  Pezolt?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  other  men  lose  papers?  A.  None  that  I 
know  of.     I  have  heard  several 

Q.  Did  they  carry  any  papers  with  them  when  they  went  out? 
A.  There  was  one  A.  B.  seaman  was  out  there  one  night.  It  was 
the  first  we  ever  noticed  their  taking  from  them.  They  took  his 
passport. 

Q.  What  was  his  name?  A.  Scanlon.  He  goes  down  and  tells 
the  captain.  The  captain  goes  up  to  headquarters  to  try  and  get 
the  passport,  and  they  did  not  know  anything  about  it,  and  he  could 
not  get  any  satisfaction.  He  had  to  go  to  the  consul  to  get  another 
passport.  After  that  the  majority  of  us  left  our  passports  and  any 
papers  that  we  had  on  board,  and  did  not  take  any  more  money  than 
we  had  to,  and  what  we  did,  we  packed  in  our  socks. 

Q.  So  the  reason  they  did  not  take  anything  away  from  you  was 
because  you  did  not  have  anything  with  you?  A.  Yes,  sir.  This 
boy  happened  to  be  one  of  the  unfortunates  that  night.  There  were 
not  many  that  did. 

Mr.  Manly:  Any  questions  by  the  Commission? 

Chairman  Wood:  I  think  not.     Thank  you  very  much. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


MR.  PETER  MACSWINEY  WILLING  TO  ANSWER 
QUESTIONS 

Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  Chairman,  there  were  some  questions  this  morn- 
ing about  matters  that  the  Lord  Mayor  did  not  know  about.  One 
of  them  was  the  Queenstown  affair.  It  has  later  been  cleared  up  by 
these  witnesses.  But  Mr.  Peter  MacSwiney  is  here,  and  while  he 
does  not  desire  to  give  testimony,  he  is  quite  willing  to  appear  before 
the  Commission   and   answer  any  questions.     He  saw  all  that  the 


889 

Lord  Mayor  saw,  and  it-  ready  to  corroborate  it,  if  the  Commission 
desires.       If  not,  he  has  no  desire  to  take  the  stand. 

Chairman  Wood:  If  there  is  anything  that  you  think  he  can  add 
to  what  has  been  said  in  the  way  of  new  testimony,  we  would  be 
very  glad  to  hear  him.  He  will  be  in  this  country  for  our  meetings 
next  week.  I  presume,  if  there  is  anything  he  wants  to  say. 

Mr.  Manly:  You  will  be  here  and  available  if  the  Commission 
wants  you  later,  will  you  not,  Mr.  MacSwiney? 

Mr.  Peter  J.  MacSwiney:  Yes,  sir,  but  I  do  not  think  there  is  any- 
thing I  can  add  to  what  has  been  said  by  the  Lord  Mayor.  I  was  in 
Queenstown  and  saw  what  was  there.  The  gentleman  was  asked 
about  Queenstown  awhile  ago,  about  how  many  blocks,  and  he  said 
he  was  not  able  to  give  a  correct  description.  It  is  the  whole  beach 
from  one  end  to  the  other  which  was  wrecked.  I  saw  that  myself.  I 
do  not  know  that  there  is  anything  else  I  can  add  to  what  has  been 
said. 

Chairman  Wood :     Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  MacSwiney:  If  there  are  any  questions,  I  have  seen  the  lorries 
going  through  Cork  with  soldiers  who  were  drunk.  I  saw  them 
firing  at  the  national  monument,  at  the  Grand  Parade.  I  saw  that 
with  my  two  eyes.  They  were  shooting,  and  anybody  passing  by 
was  likely  to  be  shot. 

Chairman  Wood:  Come  forward,  Mr.  MacSwiney,  so  that  we  can 
all  see  you,  at  any  rate.       (Mr.  MacSwiney  takes  the  stand.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  PETER  J.  MACSWINEY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  MacSwiney,  first  of  all,  are  you  a  brother  of 
the  late  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  first  name?      A.     Peter — Peter  J. 

Q.  You  are  an  American  citizen,  as  I  understand  it?  A.  Yes. 
sir. 

Q.  Of  how  long  standing?      You  were  not  born  here,  were  you? 

A.  I  was  naturalized  in  1916,  four  years  ago. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside  now?     A.     In  New  York. 

CORROBORATES  PEZOLT'S  TESTIMONY 

Q.  If  there  is  anything  you  would  like  to  add  in  regard  to 
Queenstown,  we  will  be  glad  to  hear  you.  We  asked  Lord  Mayor 
O'Callaghan  in  regard  to  Queenstown,  and  you  have  heard  the  testi- 
mony of  this  sailor  from  the  West  Cannon.  A.  Yes,  and  I  would 
like  to  corroborate  that.  I  saw  Pezolt  when  he  came  on  board  the 
ship — at  legst  when  I  came  on  board  the  ship.  I  was  on  three  days 
before  anybody  saw  me,  and  when  I  came  up  I  saw  Pezolt.  and  I 
got  talking  to  him.  He  had  a  big  scar  right  along  here,  and  he  told 
me  how  it  happened,  that  he  got  beaten  and  robbed.      And.  in  fact. 


890 

I  was  responsible  for  having  him  here.  I  thought  that  he  would  be  a 
very  good  witness  to  get  here.  He  showed  me  his  papers  of  which 
he  was  robbed — a  copy  of  his  papers,  and  a  letter  from  Mr.  Mason 
Mitchell  to  the  Commander  of  the  Forces  in  Cork,  demanding  an 
explanation,  demanding  his  passport  and  seaman's  certificate.  This 
man  was  robbed  of  all  his  money  and  his  papers.  I  saw  those 
papers  on  the  ship,  and  I  thought  it  would  be  a  very  good  thing  for 
him  as  an  American  citizen,  a  man  who  never  had  seen  Ireland  be- 
fore, born  in  San  Francisco,  who  had  never  been  in  the  country 
before,  to  come  here  and  give  some  first-hand  information  of  what 
was  going  on  over  there. 

Of  course,  as  to  the  lorries  and  all  that,  I  did  not  think  it  was 
necessary  for  me  to  come  up  here  and  repeat  what  had  been  said,  as 
I  told  Mr.  Frank  Walsh  this  morning,  that  that  has  been  already  said. 

Q.     You  did  hear  what  has  been  said,  and  you  can  corroborate  it? 

A.     Exactly. 

UNIFORMED    CAPTAIN    OF   AMERICAN    SHIP 
SUBJECTED  TO  INDIGNITIES 

Q.  The  statements  are  all  very  accurate?  A.  Very  accurate. 
The  captain  of  the  West  Cannon  told  me  himself  that  he  was  going 
around  the  streets  of  Cork,  and  as  he  described  it,  every  ten  minutes 
he  was  like  this  (indicating),  a  gun  at  his  stomach.  He  would  go 
along  two  blocks  further,  and  he  would  be  like  this  again  (indicat- 
ing), with  his  hands  up  all  the  time,  and  he  had  no  peace.  The  fact 
that  he  was  an  American  citizen  in  uniform  did  not  scare  them,  and 
he  was  subjected  to  every  indignity  possible. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  long  were  you  there.  A.  I  was  in 
Cork  about  two  months.  I  was  about  three  weeks  in  London  before 
I  went  there. 

PUBLIC  MEN  "ON  THE  RUN"  TO  PROTECT  LIVES 

Q.  What  effect,  if  any,  has  this  treatment  that  has  been  going  on 
there  had  on  the  people  themselves?  A.  The  treatment  that  the 
people  have  been  subjected  to  has  only  strengthened  their  determina- 
tion to  continue  the  fight. 

Q.  Yes,  I  can  see  how  that  would  be.  But  I  am  trying  to  find 
out  whether  the  women,  for  instance,  and  I  think  the  men,  too,  and 
the  children — what  is  their  nervous  condition?  A.  Well,  it  is  like 
this.  People  going  to  bed  at  night  are  never  sure  whether  they  will 
be  alive  in  the  morning  or  not.  Any  public  man,  any  man  holding 
public  office — and  of  course  everybody  in  office  in  Ireland  today  is  a 
Republican  because  the  government  of  Ireland  is  a  Republican  gov- 
ernment, and  it  is  functioning — and  every  public  man  cannot  sleep 


891 

in  his  own  home,  you  see.  He  runs  into  the  eily  during  the  day  to 
attend  to  his  official  duties,  but  at  night  he  has  always  got  to  find 
a  place  to  sleep. 

Q.     He  must  find  a  secret  place,  as  I  understand  it?      A.     Yes. 

Q.  He  must  not  let  anybody  know  where  he  is?  A.  No.  He 
cannot  sleep  twice,  probably,  in  the  same  bed.  He  has  got  to  find 
a  different  house  every  night. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Were  you  on  the  run  all  the  time  you  were 
in  Ireland?      A.     No,  I  walked  about  the  city. 

UNABLE  TO  SLEEP  IN  OWN  HOME 

Q.  How  about  sleeping?  A.  I  will  tell  you  about  that.  My 
sisters  were  very  nervous,  you  see,  about  my  sleeping  in  the  house. 
There  was  a  time  when  a  man  used  to  be  a  protection  in  the  house, 
but  now  it  seems 

Q.  He  has  turned  from  an  asset  into  a  liability?  A.  A  man 
in  the  house  now  is  a  danger,  because  the  military  go  around  looking 
for  the  men  to  shoot  them,  the  volunteers  especially.  But,  I  being 
an  American  citizen,  felt  at  perfect  ease.  Of  course,  I  was  held  up 
in  the  usual  way  several  times  and  searched,  but  I  was  not  robbed — 
nothing  like  that.  But  at  night  time,  in  order  to  satisfy  my  sisters — 
they  told  me  that  it  would  be  absolutely  dangerous  for  me  to  sleep  at 
home;  that  they  could  not  sleep  if  I  was  in  the  house.  Of  course,  I 
had  plenty  of  houses  to  go  to.  There  were  all  kinds  of  invitations 
everywhere  to  sleep  in  safe  places.  My  sisters  said  that  if  they  let 
me  sleep  at  home  I  would — 0,  they  said  it  was  absolutely  dangerous, 
and  they  knew  better  than  I.  The  military  go  around  all  the  time 
looking  for  the  men  to  shoot  them.  Of  course  I,  coming  over,  and 
going  through  that  horrible  business  which  you  probably  have  heard 
about,  being  beaten  up  there  by  the  military,  they  said  that  I  should 
take  no  chances. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  MacSwiney,  when  you  say  your  sisters  told  you 
there  were  plenty  of  safe  places  to  sleep,  what  is  a  safe  place? 

Mr.  Manly:  He  said  plenty  of  other  places. 

Chairman  Wood:  I  thought  he  said  a  safe  place.  I  did  not  know 
there  was  a  safe  place  to  sleep  in  Ireland. 

A.  The  witness:  A  safe  place  is  the  house  of  somebody  who  is  not 
connected  with  the  movement. 

REPUBLICAN   HOMES   PICKED   OUT  FOR  RAIDING 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Then  they  do  single  out  those  who  are 
known  to  be  active  Republican  people,  to  search  the  houses?  A. 
All  the  time — anybody  at  all  connected  with  the  movement,  all  the 
time.     In  fact,  every  week  there  is  a  raid. 


892 

Q.  But  non-politicals  are  more  or  less  safe?  A.  0,  no.  No 
one  is  safe  at  all. 

Q.  But  there  is  a  better  chance  if  you  can  find  a  non-political 
house?  A.  Yes.  A  man  named  Coleman,  who  was  never  identi- 
fied with  the  movement,  was  shot  while  I  was  there,  and  he  was 
never  connected  in  any  way  at  all  with  office  or  with  individuals. 
He  was  attacked  one  night  and  shot  dead. 

The  Chairman:  Yes,  we  have  had  testimony  about  that.1 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  One  of  those  unfortunate  mistakes?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Yes,  shoot  first  and  learn  afterwards.  A. 
He  was  the  owner  of  a  saloon.  Some  of  the  Black-and-Tans  who 
had  been  in  there  one  night  had  used  foul  language,  and  he  refused 
to  serve  them  the  following  evening  when  they  came  in.  And  the 
next  night  he  was  called  out  and  shot. 

SOLDIERS  WANTONLY   SHOOT   AT   NATIONAL 
MONUMENT 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  About  what  date  did  this  shooting  at  the  National 
Monument  take  place?     A.     I  could  not  tell  you  the  exact  date. 

Q.  Approximately?  A.  It  would  be  approximately  about  a 
week  after  I  landed  in  Cork,  probably  the  second  week  of  November. 

Q.  Probably  the  second  week  in  November?  A.  Yes,  some 
time  around  there. 

Q.  This  was  wanton  shooting?  A.  Wanton  shooting,  yes;  and 
I  saw  it  with  my  own  eyes,  coming  along.  They  seemed  to  be 
drunken  soldiers. 

Q.     They  were  in  a  lorry?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Are  there  any  further  points,  Mr.  MaeSwiney,  that  you  want 
to  speak  of?      A.     I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  there  anything  you  want  to  say  to  us  in 
particular?      A.     No,  only  to  thank  you  for  your  kindness. 

Chairman  Wood :  Thank  you  very  much  for  coming  before  us,  Mr. 
MaeSwiney. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 

Chairman  Wood:  The  next  meeting  will  be  on  Wednesday  of  next 
week  at  ten  o'clock  in  this  room.  At  that  time  we  expect  to  have 
with  us  Mr.  Dempsey,  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Mallow,  Miss  Louise  Ben- 
nett and  a  friend  of  hers,  members  of  the  Women's  International 
League,  from  Dublin  or  Cork,  I  don't  remember  which. 

Mr.  Manley:  Miss  Bennett  is  an  English  woman,  is  she  not? 

Chairman  Wood:  I  think  that  she  was  born  in  Ireland.  Mr.  Faw- 
sitt  also  expects  to  come  before  us,  and  possibly  some  other  wit- 
nesses. The  Commission  will  adjourn,  then,  until  10  o'clock  next 
Wednesday  morning. 

(Adjourned  4:40  p.  m.) 


See  testimony  of  Lord  Mayor  O'Callaghan. 


SIXTH  HEARINGS 

ON  CONDITIONS  IN  IRELAND 

Session  One 

Before  the  Commission,  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFayette,  Washing- 
ton, D.  C,  Wednesday,  January  19,  1921. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  Commission  will  come  to  order,  and  we 
will  proceed  with  the  testimony  of  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Mallow. 

Mr.  Dempsey:  Not  Lord  Mayor,  but  Mayor. 

Chairman  Wood:  0,  yes,  there  are  only  three  Lord  Mayors  in 
Ireland. 

(The  witness  takes  the  stand.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  MR.  FRANK  DEMPSEY 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Will  you  give  your  name?  A.  My  name 
is  Frank  Dempsey. 

Q.     What  is  your  position  in  the  town  of  Mallow? 

ELECTED  CHAIRMAN  OF  MALLOW  URBAN 
COUNCIL 

A.  Well,  I  am  chairman  of  the  council,  or  mayor,  as  you  like. 
Chairman  of  the  council  stands  in  the  same  position  as  mayor  of  a 
town. 

Q.  The  official  title  of  the  council  is  the  Urban  Council  of 
Mallow?     A.     Exactly. 

Q.  You  were  born  in  Mallow,  were  you?  A.  No,  I  was  born  in 
Tipperary,  in  Thurles. 

Q.  About  how  large  a  town  is  Mallow?  A.  About  4,500  the 
last  census. 

Q.  Where  is  Mallow?  A.  It  is  in  the  County  of  Cork,  about 
21  miles  from  the  city  of  Cork. 

Q.     South  of  Cork?      A.     No,  it  is  north  of  Cork. 

Q.  Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly:  When  were  you  elected  to  the  Urban 
Council,  Mr.  Dempsey?  A.  Well,  there  was  no  election  during 
the  war.  I  was  co-opted  to  the  council.  Any  vacancy  that  takes 
place  in  the  council  between,  say,  the  death  of  a  councillor  and  the 

893 


894 

election  of  a  new  council,  they  do  not  elect  a  member — they  co-op 
them;  the  members  of  the  council  co-op  some  man  from  the  town. 
And  I  was  co-opted  first  in  f917. 

Q.  And  then  you  were  elected  in  the  election  of  1918?  A.  Yes, 
I  was  elected  from  my  own  ward. 

Q.  And  what  ticket,  as  we  say  in  America,  were  you  running  on? 
A.     Republican, 

MAJORITY  OF  COUNCIL  REPUBLICAN 

Q.  What  is  the  composition  as  regards  party  of  the  Urban 
Council  of  Mallow?  How  many  Republicans  and  how  many 
Unionists?  A.  On  the  council  there  are  21  members.  At  the  last 
election  there  were  12  of  these  returned  on  the  Republican  ticket. 
There  were  7  of  what  were  called  independent  members,  and  two 
Unionists. 

Q.  About  the  independent  members:  will  you  explain  their 
political  position?  A.  Well,  at  the  time  they  ran  they  were  in  the 
main  followers  of  the  Constitutional  movement.  That  is  the  move- 
ment which  the  late  Mr.  Redmond  was  the  head  of.  I  would  say  that 
since  then,  owing  to  the  terrors  that  are  going  on  in  the  country,  all 
seven  have  come  over  to  the  Republican  side. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  It  is  19  to  2  now?  A.  Yes,  on  any 
question  of  Republican  interest  it  would  be  19  to  2.  As  a  proof  of 
that,  when  we,  early  in  1920 — in  February,  when  we  pledged  our 
allegiance  to  the  Republic,  the  voting  was  19  to  2.  The  only  mem- 
bers who  voted  against  it  were  the  two  Unionists. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  did  they  come  to  be  on  the  council — 
by  proportional  representation?  A.  Yes,  they  were  elected.  The 
election  was  carried  on  under  proportional  representation.  Of 
course,  proportional  representation  is  a  perfectly  fair  manner  of 
election,  because  it  gives  representation  to  practically  all  the  people. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  It  gives  representation  to  the  minority,  and 
these  two  represented  the  minority.     A.     Exactly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  without  proportional  representation  you 
would  have  had  a  Republican  council  from  the  last  election?  A. 
From  the  beginning,  under  the  old  system  of  election,  all  twenty-one 
seats  would  have  been  filled  by  Republicans. 

REFUSAL  OF  IRISH  RAILWAYMEN  TO  TRANSPORT 
MUNITIONS  OR  ARMED  TROOPS 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation,  Mr.  Dempsey?  A.  A  locomotive 
engineer. 

Q.  On  what  line  are  you  employed?  A.  The  Great  Southern 
&  Western  Railway,  a  line  which  runs  throughout  the  south  and  west 
.of  Ireland, 


895 

Q.  You  are  a  member  of  the  engineers'  union,  the  drivers'  union, 
are  you  not?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Commission  at  this  point  what  the  policy  of 
the  organized  railwaymen  of  Ireland  has  been,  and  the  general  de- 
velopments that  have  taken  place  in  that  policy  towards  the  handling 
of  munitions?  A.  The  railwaymen  as  a  whole,  I  would  say,  with 
the  rest  of  the  population  of  Ireland,  in  our  part  of  Ireland  at  any 
rate,  they  are  practically  all  Republicans.  The  stand  they  took  with 
regard  to  the  carrying  of  munitions  was  this:  in  England  the  rail- 
waymen's  union,  headed  by  Mr.  Thomas,  said  that  they  would  not 
carry  in  England  munitions  for  Poland  to  be  used  against  the  Rus- 
sian Government.  We  in  Ireland  had  meetings,  and  we  said  that  if 
it  was  fair  for  the  English  railway  workers  to  refuse  to  carry 
munitions  to  help  the  Poles  to  fight  Russia,  it  was  also  fair  for  us 
to  say  that  we  would  not  carry  munitions  in  Ireland  to  shoot  down 
our  own  countrymen.  That  was  the  standpoint  the  railwaymen  took 
it  from.  We  held  meetings  in  different  portions  of  the  country,  and 
these  resolutions  were  carried,  and  carried  out. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  About  what  date  did  this  happen?  A. 
About  seven  months  ago. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  this  position  still  held  by  the  rail- 
way union  men?  A.  That  position  held  on  for  about  six  months, 
I  should  say.  The  Irish  railroads  are  practically  under  Govern- 
ment control,  and  have  been  since  the  war.  The  Government  took 
steps  that  every  man  who  refused  to  carry  troops  or  munitions  of 
war  was  automatically  dismissed.  That  went  on  for  so  long  that 
there  were  very  few  railwaymen  left.  They  had  closed  quite  a  lot 
of  branch  lines  in  the  country,  and  they  threatened  to  close  and 
would  have  closed  all  the  main  lines  in  the  country,  which  would 
mean,  and  which  meant  in  fact  that  a  number  of  our  people,  the  vast 
majority  of  our  people,  would  go  hungry  through  want  of  proper 
transportation.  We  have  not  the  means  in  Ireland  that  you  people 
have  in  America  for  transportation.  Our  means  of  transportation  is 
the  railway,  and  the  railway  alone. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  give  more  clearly  to  the  Commission 
exactly  what  the  orders  and  resolutions  of  the  railwaymen  included 
with  reference  to  handling  soldiers  and  troops  which  were  not  armed, 
and  handling  supplies  that  were  not  munitions  of  war?  A.  The 
railway  men  at  their  meetings  agreed  that  they  would  carry  any 
troops  that  were  unarmed,  troops  going  round  from  military  bar- 
racks to  barracks,  or  going  on  leave;  provided  they  were  not  armed, 
we  would  carry  any  amount  of  them — we  would  not  make  an  ex- 
ception to  one  or  a  hundred.  The  only  class  of  munitions  we  ob- 
jected to  was  killing  material.  We  would  carry  food  and  clothing. 
Killing  material  would  be  guns  of  any  sort,  arms,  or  ammunition. 


896 

RAILWAYMEN  RESCIND  EMBARGO  ON  ARMS  TO 
SAVE  COUNTRY'S  ECONOMIC  LIFE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  I  understand,  then,  following  the 
question,  that  at  the  end  of  six  months  the  unions  receded  from 
their  position.  A.  Well,  the  railwaymen  found  out — we  found  out 
ourselves,  that  if  we  carried  on  to  the<  end  we  were  killing  the 
economic  life  of  our  country,  and  our  own  people  were  suffering 
rather  than  the  people  we  wanted  to  hit. 

Q.  The  British  Government  brought  over  lorries,  I  suppose.  A. 
Yes,  they  brought  over  lorries  in  great  numbers,  and  we  could  not 
help  that,  of  course. 

Q.  What  help  did  you  get  from  the  English  Railwaymen,  from 
Mr.  J.  H.  Thomas?  A.  Well,  we  got  all  the  sympathy  in  the 
world,  but  that  was  all  we  got. 

Q.  What  was  Mr.  Thomas'  attitude  towards  your  position?  A. 
He  said  it  was  an  Irish  question.  His  union  would  not  interfere 
with  the  Irish  Railway  Workers.  It  was  a  question  for  the  Irish 
railwaymen  alone.  In  other  words,  he  gave  us  all  kinds  of  sym- 
pathy, but  no  kind  of  help. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  is  the  connection  between  the  Irish 
railwaymen's  union  and  the  English  union?  A.  Well,  it  is  all  one 
union  in  England,  Ireland,  and  Scotland.  We  have  our  own  head- 
quarters, but  there  is  a  joint  agreement  between  the  unions. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  you  include  in  this  union  the 
railwaymen  in  Ulster?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  attitude  of  the  railwaymen  in 
Ulster?  A.  In  and  around  Belfast  they  did  not  take  much  notice 
of  what  we  were  doing,  but  in  other  parts  of  Ulster,  in  Donegal  and 
Derry,  and  with  the  exception  of  two  countries — in  fact,  the  first  rail- 
way to  close  in  Ireland  was  an  Ulster  railway,  the  Donegal  &  Lough 
Swilly  Railway,  I  believe;  they  closed  down  because  they  had  no 
men  to  drive  their  trains;  the  drivers  were  practically  all  dismissed. 

Q.  Will  you  make,  in  this  connection,  a  distinction  between  the 
driver  and  the  guard — what  we  call  here  the  conductor,  and  the  other 
members  of  the  train  crew?  A.  Well,  when  the  military  came  on 
the  platform,  the  conductor  of  the  train  saw  them,  whether  they 
were  armed  or  were  not.  We  were  not  supposed  to  search  for  arms, 
but  if  he  could  see  that  they  had  arms  in  their  hands,  the  conductor 
came  and  told  us  at  once.  When  they  got  on  the  train  the  conductor 
went  to  the  officer  in  charge  of  the  troops,  or  to  the  person  in 
charge,  whoever  he  happened  to  be,  and  told  him  he  was  sorry  we 
could  not  carry  them  on  account  of  the  fact  that  they  had  arms  on 
them.  At  the  start  of  it  the  troops  kept  on  board  the  train  and  would 
not  get  off,  with  the  result  that  the  people  could  no  go  anywhere. 
The  train  was  automatically  cancelled.     The  Government  changed 


897 

their  attitude  after  about  a  mouth  of  that,  and  what  they  did  was  that 
they  usually  got  oil  the  train  after  a  quarter  of  an  hour  or  so  and 
allowed  the  train  to  proceed.  But  when  the  driver  and  the  guard 
who  had  refused  to  carry  the  troops  got  to  their  destination,  they 
were  dismissed  for  refusing  to  carry  the  troops. 

Q.     The  whole  situation  centered  on  the  driver  and  the  guard? 

A.  Yes,  exactly.  The  rest  of  them  were  not  connected  with  it. 
The  driver  and  the  guard  were  the  main  ones.  The  troops  would 
have  got  on  the  train  without  anybody  else  touching  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  If  I  remember  clearly,  from  certain 
English  authorities  there  came  news  that  the  change  in  attitude  of 
the  railwaymen  was  a  great  victory  for  Dublin  Castle,  and  showed 
the  weakness  of  the  railwaymen.  But  do  I  understand  from  you 
that  it  was  not  a  weakness  on  the  part  of  the  men,  but  a  change  in 
policy  because  they  did  not  desire  to  make  their  countrymen  suffer? 
A.  Exactly.  The  reason  we  receded  from  our  position  was  that 
we  realized  we  were  ruining  the  economic  life  of  our  country.  And 
for  that  reason  we  saw  we  had  made  a  mistake,  and  receded  from 
our  position. 

Q.  You  mean  there  was  no  other  reason  for  the  change  in 
tactics?     A.     No,  none. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  during  that  lime  the  British  Government  used 
lorries  to  carry  their  armed  troops?  A.  Exactly.  Of  course  they 
had  lorries  before  that  going  around  throughout  the  country  which 
the  railwaymen  did  not  touch.  But  when  the  railwaymen  refused  to 
carry  armed  troops,  they  brought  over  shiploads  of  lorries  and 
carried  their  troops  in  these  lorries  all  over  the  country. 

NO  HELP  FROM  BRITISH  LABOR 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Has  there  ever  been  a  suggestion  in 
England  that  the  workers  should  put  the  same  sort  of  embargo  on 
the  carrying  of  supplies  for  the  war  in  Ireland  that  they  have  put 
on  the  carrying  of  arms  for  war  against  Russia?  A.  Well,  in  a 
couple  of  sections  there  was  some  discussion  of  it,  but  they  took  no 
action  as  a  whole.  We  get  all  of  their  volumes,  and  we  see  that  in 
some  of  their  meetings  there  were  suggestions  made  by  members 
that  they  help  their  brothers  in  Ireland,  but  nothing  was  done 
about  it. 

COST  AND  NUMBER  OF  CROWN  FORCES  IN 
IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Do  you  know  how  much  England  has  spent 
since  the  armistice  to  carry  on  war  in  Ireland?  A.  Well,  I  don't 
know,  but  I  know  it  is  an  enormous  amount  of  money. 

Q.     Could  you  say  whether,  if  she  had  saved  this  sum,  she  would 


898 

be  able  to  pay  the  interest  she  owes  us  on  her  war  borrowings?  A. 
I  could  not  say,  but  you  understand  as  well  as  I  do  that  an  army 
costs  a  great  deal  to  maintain,  and  I  saw  in  your  press  that  you  are 
cutting  down  your  army  because  it  costs  so  much  to  keep  it  up. 

Senator  Norris:  Yes,  but  we  do  not  have  any  place  to  borrow 
money  from  as  England  does. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  is  the  size  of  the  army  of  occupa- 
tion that  England  has  in  Ireland  now?  A.  Well,  they  have  never 
given  the  real  figures,  but  I  should  think  it  would  be  about  100,000 
altogether. 

Q.  That  includes  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary?  A.  The  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  and  the  Black-and-Tans  and  all  told.  Of  course 
they  say  they  have  about  60,000,  but  we  know  the  figures  are  more 
than  that. 

MILITARY  OCCUPATION  AND  DESTRUCTION 
THROUGHOUT  IRELAND 

Q.  And  what  part  of  Ireland  is  under  military  or  Black-and-Tan 
occupation?  A.  Well,  some  parts  of  Ireland  are  occupied  more 
than  others.  Now,  for  instance,  the  more  disturbed  the  area  is — the 
disturbance  is  caused  by  themselves — but  the  more  disturbed  the 
area  is,  the  more  troops  there  are,  the  more  Black-and-Tans  there 
are.  In  Ulster,  I  am  told  (I  have  not  been  in  Ulster  much),  but  in 
Ulster  I  am  told  there  are  also  many.  Through  the  south  and  west 
of  Ireland,  however,  there  are  more  than  in  other  parts  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Are  lorries  running  about  through  all  Ireland,  or  just  the 
southern  part  of  the  country?  A.  O,  yes,  throughout  all  of 
Ireland. 

Q.  Are  there  burnings  in  all  of  Ireland,  or  are  they  limited?  A. 
I  should  say  yes.  Because  even  in  Ulster,  in  the  most  Unionist  part 
of  Ulster,  there  are  Republicans  too.  And  although  I  have  not  the 
figures,  I  know  that  there  have  been  burnings  in  Ulster. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  recently  have  you  traveled  about 
Ireland,  aside  from  your  own  district  of  Mallow?  The  information 
you  give  about  other  districts  is  what  you  read  in  the  press — you 
have  not  been  an  eye-witness?  A.  Well,  I  have  not  been  an  eye- 
witness to  them,  but  I  have  seen  the  places  after  they  have  been 
burned.  My  occupation  takes  me  all  through  Kerry,  and  I  have 
seen  burned  houses  in  other  counties,  in  Kilkenny  and  Tipperary. 

Q.  How  far  do  the  burnings  go  in  the  northwest?  A.  All 
through  the  northwest — Donegal,  Leitrim,  and  Roscommon. 

Q.  Why  I  asked  is  that  we  have  a  map  here  showing  destructions 
and  burnings  of  towns  in  different  parts  of  Ireland.  But  what  I 
wanted  to  know  is  how  extensive  that  is.  A.  Well,  they  are  general 
throughout  Ireland,  but  they  are  worse  in  the  south  of  Ireland. 


899 

RAIDS  AND  BURNINGS  IN  ULSTER 

Mr.  Manly  (showing  map)  :  I  would  like  to  call  attention  to  the 
fact  that  this  map  is  not  complete.  You  see  the  dots  here  and  here 
(indicating)  show  where  places  have  been  burned  and  sacked.  We 
have  had  testimony  from  Miss  Wilkinson  and  others  here  stating 
that  Lisburn  and  other  places  in  the  north  have  been  destroyed.  I 
understand  that  the  chart  from  which  this  map  was  made  was  made 
last  September,  and  does  not  show  many  of  the  most  serious  burn- 
ings that  have  taken  place  since  that  time. 

The  Witness:  Of  course,  I  was  not  an  eye-witness,  but  I  have  seen 
a  village,  Camlough,  in  the  County  of  Antrim,  the  most  Unionist 
county  in  Ireland,  and  Camlough  was  burned  the  other  day. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  would  like  to  call  your  attention — it  was  in  our 
press  dispatches — to  a  drive  that  took  place  in  Armagh,  one  of  the 
Ulster  counties  just  south  of  Antrim.  It  is  said  to  be  one  of  the 
biggest  drives  that  have  taken  place  in  Ireland:  300  persons  arrested 
and  held  for  some  time,  and  then  all  released  September  13th. 

Commissioner  Howe:  That  sounds  like  A.  Mitchell  Palmer's  raids. 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  he  has  not  had  the  experience  that  the  British 
have.  He  has  only  had  four  years,  but  this  has  been  going  on  for 
more  than  four  centuries. 

WITNESS'  OCCUPATION  IN  SOUTH  AND  WEST 
IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  was  your  run  as  an  engineer? 
A.     Well,  we  changed  about. 

Q.  Did  you  cover  a  good  part  of  Ireland  in  your  runs?  A. 
Well,  an  area  of  about  one  hundred  miles.  It  would  be  about  a 
hundred  miles.  I  went  from  Mallow  to  Cork,  and  from  Cork  to 
Tralee;  and  the  following  week  you  would  change  about,  and  we 
would  go  to  Fermoy. 

Q.  So  you  saw  a  good  deal  of  Ireland?  A.  No,  the  men  on  the 
main  lines  run  the  lines  between  them.  I  was  off  the  main  lines. 
There  is  a  branch  between  Mallow  and  Tralee  and  Waterford.  The 
south  and  west  of  Ireland  was  my  run.  The  men  living  in  Cork  and 
Dublin  have  their  own  runs  on  the  main  line. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  your  runs  were  practically  confined  to  the 
south  and  west  of  Ireland,  radiating  out  of  Cork.    A.     Yes,  exactly. 

REPEATED  RAIDS  ON  HOME 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  what  is  the  size  of  your  family.  A.  Well. 
my  wife  is  dead,  but  I  have  four  little  children.  The  youngest  child 
was  two  months  old  when  her  mother  died. 


900 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  When  did  she  die?  A.  In  1915.  At  the 
end  of  1915. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  others  living  in  the  family  with 
you?  A.  Yes,  my  father-in-law  and  mother-in-law  are  living  with 
me. 

Q.     So  that  there  are  seven  in  the  family?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Have  there  been  any  raids  on  your  home?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  about  them?  A.  Well,  the  first  raid  on  my 
house  was  in  1916,  but  that  was  nothing  exceptional.  After  the 
rebellion  they  raided  practically  every  house  in  the  country  to  search 
for  arms  and  seditious  literature. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  When  did  they  raid  it,  in  the  night  or  day? 
A.     In  the  daytime  in  1916. 

Q.  What  did  they  do?  A.  They  just  came  into  the  house  and 
searched  it.     They  did  no  damage  whatever. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  That  was  carried  out  by  the  Royal  Irish 
Constabulary,  was  it?     A.    Yes,  in  1916. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  After  that,  when  was  the  next  raid?  A.  The 
next  raid  would  be  about  the  first  week  in  October  of  this  year. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  No,  last  year,  you  mean.  A.  Yes,  last 
year— 1920. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  apparent  purpose  of  that  raid? 

RAIDED  AND  CORRESPONDENCE  SEIZED  FOLLOW- 
ING COMMISSION'S  INVITATION  "TO  TESTIFY 

A.  Well,  I  wasn't  there  at  the  time  they  came,  but  the  officer  in 
charge  told  my  mother-in-law  that  he  had  come  to  search  the  house 
for  concealed  arms  and  seditious  literature.  They  came  about 
eleven  o'clock  at  night,  and  searched  the  house  from  top  to  bottom. 
They  took  away  quite  a  lot  of  private  correspondence  and  public 
correspondence  that  I  had,  and  took  it  away  to  the  military  bar- 
racks. 

Q.  Had  you  prior  to  this  time  received  the  invitation  of  this 
Commission  to  come  here  and  testify?  A.  Yes,  about  three  or  four 
days  prior  to  the  second  raid  on  my  house. 

Q.  The  first  raid  was  in  1916?  A.  Yes,  the  first  raid  on  my 
house  was  in  1916,  and  the  next  raid  was  about  three  days  after  I  got 
the  invitation  of  this  Commission  to  come  here  and  testify  about  the 
condition  of  Mallow. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  The  people  had  all  gone  to  bed,  and  they 
came  and  raided  the  house  and  compelled  them  to  get  up?  A.  Yes. 
I  happened  to  be  home,  but  thistime  I  was  in  Tralee.  They  came 
I  happened  to  be  home,  but  this  time  I  was  in  Tralee.  They  came 
and  knocked  at  the  door — they  do  not  knock  at  the  door  very  gently 


901 

in  Ireland;  they  use  the  butt  of  their  rifles.  My  mother-in-law  got 
up,  and  this  officer  and  an  old  officer  of  the  R.  I.  C.  ( we  are  particu- 
larly lucky  in  Mallow;  we  haven't  as  many  Black-and-Tans  there 
vet  as  in  some  other  places,  because  there  are  still  some  of  the  old 
R.  1.  C. ) .     And  they  came  in  and  searched  all  my  papers. 

Q.  Did  they  tear  up  anything — any  furniture,  or  break  up  any- 
thing? A.  No.  They  made  a  very  thorough  search  of  the  house, 
but  they  did  not  materially  damage  the  property.  They  pulled 
down  beds  and  pictures  and  loose  things  to  search,  but  they  did 
not  destroy  anything. 

Q.     When  was  the  next  raid?     A.     About  a  week  after  that. 

Q.     That  was  a  third  raid?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  And  that  was  similar  to  the  second  raid  you  have 
described?     A.     Yes,  exactly. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Did  they  take  anything  else  away  with  them? 
A.     They  took  away  some  papers  that  they  overlooked  the  first  time. 

Q.  What  time  was  that?  A.  Between  eleven  and  twelve  at 
night. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  And  when  was  the  next  raid?  A.  Shortly  after 
that.     It  was  in  the  daytime. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  that  raid?  A.  Well,  they  just 
came  in  and  asked  for  me,  and  looked  around  the  house. 

Q.     They  were  looking  for  papers?     A.     Yes,  exactly. 

ARMED  RAIDER  PROFFERS  RETURN  OF 
CORRESPONDENCE 

Q.  Was  there  another  raid  following  that?  A.  Yes,  there  was 
a  raid  on  Sunday  night. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  about  the  general  circumstances  of  that  raid? 
A.  Well,  they  had  come  three  times  to  my  house  within  a  fortnight. 
I  need  not  tell  you  that  we  in  Ireland  are  not  very  anxious  to  meet 
these  gentlemen  when  they  do  come  to  our  homes.  It  was  Sunday 
night,  and  I  happened  to  be  at  my  own  door  about  a  quarter  to  nine. 
We  have  a  curfew  in  Mallow  at  nine  o'clock.  Everybody  has  to  be 
in  their  house  between  the  hours  of  nine  and  three  in  the  morning. 
At  about  quarter  to  nine  I  happened  to  be  at  home,  and  I  was  turn- 
ing over  in  my  own  mind  whether  I  should  stay  at  home  or  go  out. 
And  one  of  my  little  girls  came  to  me  and  asked,  "Daddy,  will  you 
sleep  at  home  tonight?"  I  took  her  advice  and  said  I  would.  So 
I  went  inside  and  sat  down  in  the  kitchen,  reading  from  nine  o'clock 
to  about  quarter  to  ten.  My  father-in-law  was  out  walking, — he  is 
also  a  railroad  man.  There  was  nobody  up  but  my  second  child 
and  my  mother-in-law. 

Q.  What  is  her  name?  A.  May,  May  Dempsey.  About  quarter 
to  ten  a  violent  knocking  came  to  the  door,  and  I  said  to  myself, 


902 

it  just  serves  me  right  for  stopping  in.  I  knew  at  once  by  the  knock 
it  was  the  military.  My  mother-in-law  went  to  the  door  and  asked 
who  was  there,  and  the  officer  in  charge  said,  "Military.  Open!" 
He  asked  if  I  was  inside.  And  she  said  I  was  inside  with  my  child. 
Of  course  the  house  had  been  surrounded  by  this  time  by  the  mili- 
tary, and  it  would  have  been  only  madness  to  try  to  get  away.  You 
cannot  get  away  after  they  surround  the  house  like  that.  He  came 
in  with  a  revolver  in  his  hand,  and  this  second  girl  of  mine  is  very 
fond  of  me,  and  when  she  saw  the  revolver  in  the  officer's  hand  she 
thought  he  was  going  to  shoot  me,  and  she  threw  herself  in  front 
of  me  and  shouted  out,  "Oh,  Daddy,  you  are  going  to  be  shot!"  I 
said  to  the  officer,  "There  is  no  occasion  for  that  sort  of  thing. 
There  is  a  child  here."  And  he  said,  "Oh,  that  is  right."  And  he 
put  the  revolver  in  his  pocket.  He  was  more  courteous  than  some 
of  them  you  meet.  He  said,  "Mr.  Dempsey,  I  have  quite  a  lot  of 
correspondence  of  yours  in  the  military  barracks,  and  you  can  get 
that  correspondence  any  time  you  call  for  it."  I  said,  "I  don't  know 
what  correspondence  you  have  from  me,  because  you  took  the  cor- 
respondence away  in  my  absence."  I  said,  "Don't  you  think,  since 
you  took  it  away,  that  you  ought  to  bring  it  back?"  He  said,  "I 
don't  see  what  there  is  wrong  about  asking  you  to  come  to  the  bar- 
racks for  it."  I  said,  "No,  but  considering  the  fact  that  you  took 
it  away,  you  might  bring  it  back."  He  said,  "Well,  then,  I  will 
send  it  back."     And  then  he  went  away. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  he  give  any  other  reason  for  coming  lo  see 
you  after  curfew  with  a  revolver  in  his  hand  except  that  to  tell  you 
that  if  you  called  for  your  correspondence  you  could  have  it?  A. 
No,  none  at  all.  My  belief  is  that  he  had  come  to  the  house  four 
times  previously,  and  on  these  occasions  I  was  not  there.  This  was 
on  a  Sunday  night,  and  on  Sunday  nights  very  few  of  the  railway 
men  work.  On  the  other  occasions  when  he  came,  I  was  not  there; 
and  he  made  it  his  business  to  find  out  that  I  was  off  duty  when  he 
came.  My  opinion, — of  course  I  could  not  swear  to  it,  but  my 
candid  opinion  is  that  he  came  to  see  if  I  was  on  the  run.  That 
made  me  very  plucky  when  he  did  not  arrest  me;  because  if  he  had 
had  any  definite  charge  against  me  which  he  could  prove,  he  would 
have  arrested  me. 

Q.  Did  he  send  back  your  papers?  A.  No,  he  didn't  send  back 
my  papers. 

RECEIVES  PASSPORT  FOLLOWING  RAIDS 

Meantime  I  had  looked  for  the  passport.  I  had  applied  for  it  a 
couple  of  days  after  getting  the  invitation  from  this  Commission. 
It  usually  takes  from  ten  days  to  a  fortnight  to  have  a  passport 
issued.     But  my  passport  was  between  six  and  seven  weeks,  and  1 


903 

had  no  answer  to  it.  1  had  asked  the  clerk  of  the  Crown  police, 
who  is  the  man  who  puts  your  application  through;  and  he  told  me 
that  he  had  no  news  of  it.  I  was  turning  over  the  fact  in  my  mind 
to  know  why  it  was  that  they  were  not  giving  me  the  passport,  and 
I  said  to  myself  that  the  reason  for  so  many  raids  in  such  a  short 
time  in  my  house  was  the  fact  that  they  didn't  want  to  give  me  the 
passport;  they  wanted  to  find  out  if  they  could  sustain  a  charge 
against  me,  and  so  refuse  the  passport.  Because  about  two  days 
after  the  last  raid  on  my  house,  the  passport  was  issued  to  me. 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  the  last  raid  on  your  house?  A.  It 
would  be  about  the  21st  of  December,  I  think.  I  am  not  exactly 
sure  of  that,  but  it  would  be  a  few  days  before  Christmas,  at  any 
rate,  because  I  postponed  the  visit  to  your  Commission  myself,  as 
Christmas  was  so  near.  I  said  I  would  not  come  until  after  Christ- 
mas.    And  I  sailed  on  the  first  boat  after  Christmas. 

MALLOW  QUIET  AND  PROSPEROUS  BEFORE 
BURNING 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  the  burning  of  Mallow?  A.  The 
twenty-seventh  of  September  last. 

Q.  What  had  been  the  general  conditions  in  Mallow  prior  to 
that  time?  A.  Well,  I  am  not  a  native  of  Mallow,  but  I  have  been 
living  in  Mallow  for  a  long  time.    ■ 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  long  a  time,  Mr.  Dempsey, — ten 
years?  A.  I  am  living  in  Mallow  about  fourteen  years.  And  a 
quieter  town  or  a  more  prosperous  town  there  was  not  in  all  Ireland. 

Q.  What  business  have  they  there?  A.  Well,  they  have  the 
usual  business  of  Ireland.  The  country  around  Mallow  is  very 
agricultural,  and  the  people  brought  in  their  agricultural  products 
into  the  town  and  sold  them.  They  have  their  fairs  and  markets. 
But  the  principal  business  was  a  large  condensed  milk  factory  which 
employed  five  to  six  hundred  hands. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Who  is  that  owned  by?  A.  By  a  Mr.  Cleeves 
of  Limerick.  He  has  large  condensed  milk  factories  all  over  Ire- 
land. 

Q.  How  does  that  rank  in  size?  A.  That  is  the  second  largest 
in  Ireland.     Limerick  has  the  largest. 

Q.  What  troops  were  stationed  in  Mallow  prior  to  the  burning? 
A.     Well,  in  the  military  barrack  there  was  a  troop  of  lancers. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Lancers  is  a  cavalry  regiment?  A.  Yes, 
the  Seventeenth  Lancers.  And  in  the  police  barrack  there  were  a 
number  of  police  and  Black-and-Tans. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  large  a  town  is  Mallow?  A.  About 
4,500,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  are  the  conditions  in  Mallow?  A.  What 
do  you  mean? 


904 

MALLOW  A  CRIMELESS  TOWN 

Q.  About  crime.  Have  there  been  any  serious  crimes  in  Mal- 
low?    A.    No,  never. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  cases  of  murder  there,  or  arson?  A. 
No,  never.  It  was  a  model  town  from  the  crime  point  of  view.  We 
have  had  no  crime  there  like  you  sometimes  see  in  Ireland.  A  man 
gets  drunk  sometimes.  The  usual  charge  before  a  court  up  to  the 
war  was  a  man  having  his  cow  out  on  the  road,  or  his  donkey  astray. 
That  was  the  only  crime  that  we  had,  if  you  call  that  crime.  We 
are  a  very  quiet,  peaceful  people. 

Q.     Commissioner  Howe:  No  hold-ups?     A.     No  hold-ups. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  No  robbery  of  houses?  A.  Well,  I  would 
not  say  that  there  never  had  been  any  robbery  there.  I  do  not 
know.  Even  in  a  model  town  there  might  be  a  robbery  in  fourteen 
years. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  there  a  custom  of  giving  British  magistrates 
a  pair  of  white  gloves  when  there  is  no  crime  brought  before  the 
magistrate?  A.  Yes,  when  there  are  no  cases  brought  before  the 
court. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  any  time  in  this  fourteen  years  a 
magistrate  has  received  a  pair  of  white  gloves?  A.  Yes,  he  did; 
almost  every  time  he  got  a  pair  of  white  gloves.  He  must  have  a 
whole  store  of  white  gloves. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  How  often  would  he  come, — every  six 
months?  A.  They  were  the  quarter  sessions.  You  see,  the  petty 
court  sits  every  week.  And  then  about  every  three  months  the  re- 
corder comes  to  Mallow.  I  am  talking  of  Mallow  now  prior  to 
1916.  Of  course,  since  1916  and  1917  and  1918  and  now  the  courts 
of  Mallow  are  doing  nothing. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  To  get  back  to  this  custom  of  giving  white 
gloves.  Just  what  is  this  custom?  A.  If  there  are  no  serious 
crimes  brought  before  the  grand  jury,  the  jury  presents  the  recorder 
with  a  pair  of  white  gloves. 

Q.  And  that  happened  frequently  prior  to  1916?  A.  Yes,  fre- 
quently. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  is  the  salary  of  these  recorders? 
A.  I  don't  know  exactly.  I  should  say  about  £1500.  It  would  be 
quite  close  to  it. 

Q.  Are  they  Irishmen?  A.  Yes,  some  of  them  are.  They  are 
practitioners  of  the  law. 

Q.  But  they  are  not  sent  over  from  England?  A.  No,  they 
are  not. 


905 

MAGISTRATES  RESIGN  IN  PROTEST  AGAINST 
BRITISH  POLICY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  how  many  of  them  have  resigned 
during  the  past  year?  A.  Well,  I  would  not  say  that  any  of  the 
recorders  have  resigned. 

Q.  But  the  magistrates?  The  magistrates  who  try  petty  cases? 
A.  About  95  per  cent,  of  them  have  resigned,  with  the  exception  of 
the  resident  magistrates,  who  are  paid  officials.  The  ordinary  magis- 
trates are  not  paid  officials.  They  are  called  "the  great  army  of 
the  unpaid."  They  get  the  honor  of  putting  J.  P.  after  their  names, 
and  they  do  their  work  for  nothing.  Of  course  they  are  honorable 
men. 

Q.  But  the  resignations  which  have  occurred  are  of  men  holding 
very  prominent  positions  in  Ireland?  A.  Oh,  yes;  they  are  doctors 
and  business  men  and  others  of  irfluence  and  position. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  whether  Sir  Thomas  Stafford,  the  British  Privy 
Counsellor  in  Ireland,  resigned?  A.  Well,  I  saw  it  in  the  papers 
that  he  did. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  whether  this  is  a  quotation  from  his  letter  of 
resignation  at  that  time?  (Reading):  "My  remaining  any  longer 
a  member  of  a  Council  which  is  not  consulted  places  me  in  the 
invidious  position  of  seeming  to  approve  of  a  policy  with  regard 
to  the  government  of  Ireland  with  which  I  have  no  sympathy."  A. 
Yes,  I  remember  the  letter,  which  was  published. 

Q.  And  about  the  same  time  Sir  H.  Grattan  Bellew  also  resigned 
his  Deputy  Lieutenancy  and  Commission  of  the  Peace,  on  August 
11th?     A.     Yes,  I  remember  that. 

Q.  And  a  large  number  of  magistrates  have  resigned?  A. 
Ninety-five  per  cent.,  I  should  say. 

REPRESSION,  RAIDS  AND  ARRESTS  IN  MALLOW 
PRIOR  TO  BURNING 

Q.  Now,  from  1916  to  the  burning  of  Mallow,  what  had  been  the 
general  conditions  in  the  town?  Had  there  been  altercations  be- 
tween the  police  and  the  civilians?  A.  Well,  there  was  only  one 
that  I  remember,  in  the  year  1917.  We  were  having  a  celebration 
of  the  anniversary  of  1916. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Of  the  uprising  in  1916,  you  mean?  A. 
Yes.  And  we  paraded  the  town,  and  a  number  of  townspeople  and 
the  people  from  the  surrounding  districts  had  a  sort  of  mournful 
parade. 

Q.  This  was  in  Easter  Week,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  Easter  Week  of 
1917.     And  the  local  police  force  broke  up  that  procession,  with 


906 

the  result  that  a  few  men  of  the  town  got  broken  heads  from  the 
policemen's  sticks. 

Q.     Were  any  of  the  policemen  shot  on  that  occasion?     A.     No. 

Q.  Had  raids  been  taking  place  pretty  generally  in  Mallow  from 
1916?  A.  Well,  not  generally;  but  Mallow  had  its  own  share  of 
the  raids  after  1916.  You  see,  there  were  raids  taking  place  all 
over  Ireland  in  1916.  And  we  had  comparative  quiet  in  1917.  But 
in  1918  and  1919  we  have  had  raids  in  Mallow  almost  continuously. 

Q.  Any  policemen  shot  in  Mallow  while  these  raids  were  taking 
place?     A.    No,  no. 

Q.  Were  there  any  of  the  Republicans  arrested?  A.  Yes,  there 
were  a  number  of  Republicans  arrested. 

Q.  About  how  many?  A.  Well,  from  Mallow  I  should  say 
there  would  be  about  ten  or  a  dozen. 

Q.     About  ten  out  of  this  town  of  forty-five  hundred?     A.     Yes. 

REPUBLICAN  ARMY  RAIDS  MALLOW  BARRACKS 

Q.  What  were  the  circumstances  preceding  the  burning  of  Mal- 
low?    A.     Well,  on  September  27th  last,  about  ten  o'clock 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  This  was  1920?  A.  Yes,  1920.  The  mili- 
tary barracks  are  situated  at  the  end  of  a  street  called  Emmet  Street. 
It  is  at  the  western  end  of  the  town,  and  it  is  surrounded  at  one  side 
by  a  number  of  small  houses,  and  to  the  other  there  is  a  public  park 
at  the  back  of  the  barrack.  On  this  particular  morning,  about  ten 
o'clock,  a  number  of  men  attacked  the  barracks, — the  military  bar- 
racks. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Who  were  the  attackers, — Irish  Volunteers?  A. 
They  were  Republicans. 

Q.     Members  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Were  they  citizens  of  Mallow?  A.  No,  they  were  men  from 
the  country. 

Q.  But  to  your  personal  knowledge,  they  were  not  residents  of 
the  town  of  Mallow?  A.  To  my  personal  knowledge,  no.  There 
may  have  been  one  or  two  Mallow  men  in  the  actual  raid.  But  to 
my  knowledge  in  the  actual  raid  on  the  barracks  there  was  no  person 
from  Mallow,  with  the  possible  exception  of  one  or  two. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Were  they  in  uniform?  A.  No,  the  Re- 
publican forces  haven't  any  uniform. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  is  the  penalty  for  having  a  uniform?  A. 
Well,  if  you  have  a  uniform,  you  get  anything  from  two  years  to 
five. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  was  not  always  the  case,  was  it?  A. 
Oh,  no. 

Q.  From  what  date  was  the  uniform  proscribed?  They  used  to 
parade  in  uniform,  did  they  not?     A.     Yes,  up  to  1916. 


907 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Did  you  witness  this  raid  on  the  bar- 
racks?    A.     No,  I  did  not  see  it. 

Q.      But  you  were  in  the  town  at  the  time?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     About  how  many  participated  in  the  raid?      A.     About   •  ><>. 

Q.  Just  how  was  this  raid  carried  on?  A.  Well,  they  got  into 
the  barrack  yard  on  a  subterfuge,  and  they  opened  the  barrack  doors 
and  held  up  the  barrack. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  was  this  raid  carried  out?  A.  Well, 
about  25  of  them  held  up  the  barracks,  and  about  5  more  kept  a 
lookout  and  waited  for  them  in  automobiles.  They  did  this  while  a 
number  of  the  men  were  out  with  their  horses  exercising  them  out- 
side of  the  town.  So  the  raiding  party  surprised  them  and  held 
them  up  and  compelled  them  to  hold  up  their  hands,  with  the  excep- 
tion of  five  or  six, — they  were  not  in  the  barrack  square  at  the  time. 
These  five  or  six  ran  out  with  rifles  and  revolvers  and  began  firing, 
with  the  result  that  in  the  melee  the  sergeant-major,  who  wasn't  in 
the  barracks  and  who  was  out  with  the  other  men,  he  was  shot, 
unfortunately. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  he  shot  dead?  A.  No,  he  lived  for  about 
three  or  four  hours. 

PURPOSE  OF  ATTACK  TO  GET  ARMS 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  The  attacking  forces  had  arms,  did 
they?     A.     Well,  they  had  rifles  and  revolvers. 

Q.  Is  this  the  way  most  of  these  attacks  on  barracks  have  been 
carried  out, — they  make  their  entrance  quietly,  and  then  they  over- 
power the  officers  and  make  them  hold  up  their  hands,  and  they  take 
away  their  arms?  A.  Well,  I  have  no  definite  knowledge  of  other 
cases,  but  I  believe  it  is. 

Q.  And  in  cases  of  attacks  on  barracks,  there  are  very  few 
people  killed?     A.     Very  seldom  anybody  killed. 

Q.  Why  is  that?  A.  Well,  they  carry  out  the  thing  so  quickly 
that  they  have  them  overpowered  before  they  have  a  chance  to  resist. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Well,  what  did  they  do  with  these  men  they 
captured?  A.  Well,  they  took  all  the  arms  they  had  on  them,  and 
all  the  arms  in  the  barrack,  and  they  sent  out  for  a  doctor  and  a 
priest  for  this  man  who  was  injured. 

Q.  They  did  not  take  them  prisoner,  then, — just  held  them  up 
and  took  their  arms  away  from  them?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  In  other  words,  the  whole  purpose 
of  the  raid  is  to  get  arms  and  munitions  for  the  Republican  forces? 
A.    Yes. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  Did  they  burn  down  the  barrack?     A.    No. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  this  sergeant-major  firing  on  the  attacking 
party?     A.     I  could  not  say  as  to  that,  but  I  know  the  sergeant- 


908 

major  did  come  out  with  a  revolver  in  his  hand,  and  he  was  shot 
down. 

Q.     So  it  was  just  a  case  of  who  shot  first?     A.    Yes. 

BARRACKS  HEAVILY  FORTIFIED 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  I  would  like  to  get  a  picture  of  these 
barracks.  A.  Well,  they  have  sand-bags  and  barbed  wire  around 
them. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  it  a  stone  building?  A.  Yes,  it  is  a  large 
stone  building,  all  boarded  up. 

Q.  Fortified?  A.  Yes,  all  the  barracks  in  Ireland  are  heavily 
fortified. 

POLICE  MAKE  THREATS  AGAINST  TOWN 

Q.  What  were  the  results  following  the  attack  on  this  barrack? 
A.  Well,  when  the  Republican  forces  had  got  away,  the  doctor  and 
the  police  came  immediately  to  the  barrack  and  took  charge  of  the 
wounded  man.  And  one  of  the  men  got  a  horse,  and  he  galloped 
out  at  once  for  the  rest,  who  had  been  out  exercising  their  horses 
for  the  morning.  And  they  galloped  back  to  the  town,  and  when 
they  heard  that  their  comrade  had  been  shot,  and  their  arms  taken, 
they  came  riding  up  making  threats  to  the  town,  with  the  result  that 
the  people  of  the  town  got  very  nervous. 

Q.  Did  they  do  any  shooting  in  the  heat  of  anger  when  they 
knew  their  comrade  had  been  shot?     A.     No,  they  did  not. 

Q.  They  did  not  shoot  any  in  the  town  at  that  time?  A.  No, 
they  did  not.  But  everybody  knew  what  was  coming,  from  what 
had  happened  to  other  towns.  So  they  took  steps  to  board  up  their 
premises,  and  they  took  that  zinc,  as  we  call  it  in  Ireland, — I  don't 
know  what  you  call  it  here. 

Q.     Galvanized  iron?     Corrugated  iron? 

COLONEL  PLEDGES  PROTECTION  TO  TOWN 

A.  Yes.  They  took  corrugated  iron  and  boarded  up  their  prem- 
ises, and  a  good  deal  of  people  left  the  town.  But  during  the  day, 
after  it  happened,  the  town  got  into  a  state  of  excitement;  so  much 
so  that  some  of  the  men  in  the  town  went  to  the  parish  priest,  who 
is  an  old  man,  the  Canon  Corbett.  And  he  called  on  the  Protestant 
rector  of  the  town,  who  is  a  Canon  Harmon.  And  they  also  called 
into  consultation  the  Presbyterian  minister  in  the  town,  a  Reverend 
Mr.  Baker,  I  believe.  And  the  three  of  them  went  to  the  officer  in 
command  of  the  troops.  Mallow  is  incorporated  with  the  military 
district  of  Buttevant.  Buttevant  is  about  seven  miles  north  of 
Mallow.     The  senior  officer  at  Buttevant  is  in  charge  of  the  district 


909 

that  Mallow  is  in.  He  and  some  officers  came  to  Mallow  by  motor 
immediately  to  see  what  had  happened.  The  three  ministers  of  the 
town  waited  on  this  colonel,  and  they  asked  for  protection  of  the 
town  from  any  reprisals.  The  officer  in  charge  of  the  troops  gave  a 
guarantee  that  no  reprisals  would  take  place. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  that  officer's  name?  A.  No. 
I  don't  know  his  name. 

Q.  But  he  was  in  command  of  that  district?  A.  He  was  the 
colonel  in  charge  of  the  troops  in  the  district  on  the  27th  of  Septem- 
ber last.  He  gave  a  guarantee  to  the  Roman  Catholic  priest,  to  the 
Protestant  rector.  Canon  Harmon,  and  to  the  Presbyterian  minister, 
Reverend  Mr.  Baker,  that  no  reprisals  would  take  place.  But  he 
asked  the  clergymen  to  see  that  the  people  were  off  the  streets  by 
nine  o'clock.  The  Canon, — Canon  Corbett,  who  is  my  parish  priest, 
— called  me  into  consultation.  I  came  from  work  about  six  o'clock 
that  night, — I  went  to  work  about  eleven  and  I  came  back  about  six. 
We  patrolled  the  town  together,  and  we  got  the  people  off  the  streets, 
and  told  them  to  confine  themselves  in  their  houses.  I  forgot  to 
mention  that  the  clergymen  in  consultation  had  also  wired  General 
MacReady.  who  was  the  commander  of  the  forces  in  Ireland  at  the 
time,  and  who.  I  believe,  is  commander  still. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  He  is  in  Dublin,  I  believe.  A.  Yes.  They  wired 
him  for  protection  to  the  town,  but  I  understand  they  got  no  answer 
to  their  message. 

THE  SECRET  AEROPLANE  COMMUNICATION 

Q.  What  else  happened  during  the  day  that  seemed  to  have  con- 
nection with  this  matter?  A.  About  four  o'clock  in  the  afternoon 
an  aeroplane  came  from  Fermoy.  Fermoy  is  the  second  largest 
military  station  in  Ireland.  It  is  a  town  about  sixteen  miles  east  of 
Mallow. 

Q.  About  the  same  distance  from  Mallow  that  Buttevant  js?  A. 
No,  Buttevant  is  only  seven  miles.  The  other  town  is  sixteen  miles 
east.  About  four  o'clock  in  the  evening  an  aeroplane  came  from 
Fermoy  to  Mallow  and  dropped  a  communication  into  the  barrack 
vard.  After  that  it  flew  to  Buttevant  and  dropped  a  communication 
there  also,  and  then  flew  back  to  Fermoy.  That  is  a  thing  that  very 
seldom  happens.  We  concluded  in  the  town  that  it  was  some  sort 
of  agreement  between  the  different  forces. 

Q.  The  military  officer  in  command  at  Fermoy  would  be  the 
superior  of  the  officer  at  Buttevant?  A.  Oh,  yes,  he  is,  undoubt- 
edly. The  military  officer  in  command  at  Fermoy  would  be  a  gen- 
eral. The  military  officer  in  command  at  Buttevant  is  only  a  colonel, 
a  senior  colonel. 

Q.     Then   the   officer   at   Fermoy   would   be    in    command   of   the 


910 

officer  in  Buttevant?  A.  Yes.  Of  course  I  cannot  say  what  the 
communication  was.  The  aeroplane  simply  came  from  Fermoy  and 
dropped  the  communication  at  Mallow,  and  then  dropped  another 
one  at  Buttevant,  and  then  flew  back  to  Fermoy.  But  the  coinci- 
dence is  that  about  half-past  ten  a  lorry  of  troops  arrived  in  Mallow 
from  Buttevant,  and  about  five  minutes  after  two  motor  lorries 
arrived  with  troops  from  Fermoy.  Well,  Fermoy  is  about  sixteen 
miles  east  of  Mallow,  and  Buttevant  about  seven  miles  north.  And 
my  reasoning  is  that  they  must  have  had  some  understanding  to 
come  so  near  together  from  those  distances.  At  about  the  same  time 
the  troops  in  Mallow  came  out;  not  all  of  them  came  out,  because 
the  troops  there  had  had  some  communication  with  the  people,  and 
their  relationships,  while  I  would  not  say  were  friendly,  they  were 
not  enemies,  either.  About  ten  or  twelve, — I  should  say  a  dozen  of 
the  fifty  troops  there  came  out. 

LOOTING  FOR  LIQUOR  BEGINS  NIGHT  OF  TERROR 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  said  awhile  ago  that  two  lorries 
of  troops  came  from  Fermoy  and  one  from  Buttevant.  How  many 
in  these  lorries?  A.  Well,  I  could  not  say  exactly.  About  25,  I 
should  say.  The  first  thing  they  did  was  to  fire  revolver  and  rifle 
shots  and  scream  and  fire  around  the  town.  The  first  thing  after 
that  they  did  was  to  raid  some  of  the  public  houses  and  loot  them 
and  get  drink.  And  then  they  marched  to  the  town  hall,  the  seat  of 
the  town  council. 

TOWN  HALL  BURNED  FIRST 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  describe  the  town  hall?  A.  It  was  a 
very  fine  old  building.  The  ground  floor  was  let  to  a  club,  which 
was  called  the  Social  Club,  and  it  paid  a  rent  of  about  thirty  pounds 
a  year,  I  understand,  to  the  council,  for  the  use  of  the  ground  floor. 
This  rent  went  to  the  reduction  of  the  rates.  The  top  floor  was 
occupied  by  a  caretaker.  The  middle  floor  was  occupied  by  the 
council  and  the  council  offices.  But  about  half  of  the  middle  floor 
was  occupied  by  the  county  secretary,  who  would  be  a  member  of 
the  county  council,  and  who  paid  rent  to  the  urban  council.  Well, 
this  hall  was  attacked  first.  They  attacked  it  by  breaking  in  the 
main  entrance.  In  the  back  of  the  hall,  I  should  mention,  there  was 
a  large  public  hall  for  entertainment. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  town  hall  was  a  social  center  at  which  all 
the  social  activities  of  the  town  were  carried  on?  A.  Yes,  dances 
were  held  there,  and  pictures,  and  dramatic  companies  held  a  show 
there.  It  was  the  only  hall  in  the  town  that  anything  could  be  held 
in.     It  was  a  very  large  hall.     It  would  hold  about  one  thousand 


911 

people;  a  very  large  hall  for  the  town  of  Mallow.  It  was  a  very 
big  hall  back  of  the  town  hall. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  town  hall  was  built  of  stone,  was  it? 
A.    Yes,  it  was. 

Q.  And  about  how  old  a  building?  A.  About  150  years  old. 
I  should  say. — a  fine  building  built  in  a  very  substantial  manner, 
and  a  distinct  ornament  to  the  town.  The  stairways  of  the  hall  and 
the  doors  and  the  ceilings,  of  course,  were  all  timber.  They  were 
sprinkled  all  over  with  petrol,  and  some  incendiary  bombs  thrown 
into  it,  and  it  was  all  set  afire. 

MILITARY  SHOOT  AT  VOLUNTEER  FIREMAN 

Q.  Any  effort  made  to  put  out  the  fire?  A.  Some  of  us  came 
down  to  try  to  put  out  the  fire  and  get  out  the  fire  brigade,  and  they 
fired  at  us.  I  do  not  say  they  fired  at  us  to  kill  us.  but  at  least  to 
frighten  us  out. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  you  have  a  fire  department  in  Mallow? 
A.     No,  not  in  our  town.     The  firemen  were  ill  volunteers. 

Q.  And  they  were  not  permitted  to  put  it  out?  A.  No,  they 
fired  at  us. 

TEN  PRIVATE  HOUSES  BURNED 

And  then  after  the  town  hall  was  afire,  they  set  fire  to  ten  private 
houses.  One  of  the  houses  they  attacked  was  kept  by  a  man  named 
Forde.  They  broke  into  his  house  first.  And  he  had  a  clerk  by  the 
name  of  Corbett.  And  this  young  chap  the  military  believed  or  had 
heard  that  he  had  made  himself  very  prominent  in  Volunteer  circles. 
They  went  up  through  the  rooms  before  burning  the  house,  and  they 
drove  their  bayonets  through  all  the  beds  in  the  house.  Of  course, 
the  occupants  of  the  house  had  gone  out  of  it.  The  owner  of  the 
house,  Mr.  Forde,  gave  me  a  little  tobacco  box,  which  the  morning 
before  had  been  given  to  his  child  by  a  commercial  traveller  to  play 
with.  The  child  was  playing  in  the  bed  with  the  box  the  night 
before.  But  the  mother  of  the  child  and  the  child  itself  and  the 
owner  of  the  house  and  all  his  clerks  had  left  the  house.  But  the 
little  box  was  in  the  bed  the  child  was  in.  And  after  the  fire  that 
box  was  got;  and  the  mark  shows  that  the  bayonet  which  went 
through  this  little  child's  bed  went  right  through  the  tobacco  box. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Have  you  that  box?  A.  I  have  it.  and  will 
bring  it  to  the  Commission  this  afternoon. 

Q.  Have  you  there  the  picture  of  the  family  and  the  statement 
of  the  father?     A.     Yes,  I  have. 

Senator  Norris:  Suppose  he  goes  on  and  gives  the  details  of  the 
fire. 


912 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Well,  this  is  the  statement  that  deals  with  this 
particular  instance.  We  can  come  back  to  it  later.  Just  go  ahead 
and  tell  about  the  fire,  Mr.  Dempsey,  and  we  will  come  back  to 
this  again. 

"LIKE  DEMONS  IN  THE  TOWN" 

A.  Well,  they  carried  on  and  burned  nine  other  houses  in  the 
same  way  in  the  town.  And  they  frightened  everybody  out  of  their 
wits  in  the  town.  They  carried  on  like  demons  in  the  town.  Those 
of  us  who  remained  in  the  town  did  not  think  that  human  nature 
could  descend  to  the  depths  that  they  did  that  night, — their  wild 
yells  and  cries  and  the  shooting  and  burning. 

Q.  Were  these  soldiers  or  Black-and-Tans?  A.  They  were 
soldiers. 

Q.  Can  you  identify  the  regiment  they  belonged  to?  A.  They 
belonged  to  the  Seventeenth  Lancers  from  Buttevant;  we  could  not 
identify  the  men  who  came  from  Fermoy,  because  they  had  over- 
coats on.  The  only  way  we  could  identify  those  from  Buttevant  was 
that  they  have  a  distinct  uniform,  and  they  are  the  only  cavalry 
regiment  around  Mallow. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  These  were  a  cavalry  regiment,  then?  A. 
Yes,  a  cavalry  regiment. 

Q.     Did  they  have  any  officer  with  them?     A.     I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  there  anybody  in  charge?  A.  Yes,  there 
was  somebody  in  charge,  but  I  could  not  say  whom. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  did  they  do  in  the  town  then?  A. 
Well,  they  shot  through  practically  every  window  in  the  town  or 
broke  it  with  their  trench  tools.  They  broke  all  the  glass  in  the 
main  street  of  the  town.  They  broke  in  the  shutters  of  the  houses 
and  destroyed  them.  In  fact,  it  was  the  houses  that  were  boarded 
up  that  they  attacked  first. 

Q.  And  all  those  that  were  burned  had  been  protected?  A.  Yes, 
with  one  exception. 

ARSON  CONVERTS  UNIONIST  TO  REPUBLICANISM 

Q.  Could  you  tell  us  whether  the  houses  that  were  burned  were 
selected  or  taken  indiscriminately?  A.  Well,  I  think  they  were 
taken  indiscriminately,  because  one  of  the  houses  burned  was  the 
house  of  a  Protestant  and  a  Unionist. 

Q.  What  was  his  name?  A.  Quaile.  He  is  a  Protestant  and 
a  Unionist,  and  a  large  business  man. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Did  it  convert  him  to  Republicanism?  A. 
Yes.     I  have  a  statement  of  it  from  him  that  I  can  read  here. 

Chairman  Wood:  We  would  like  to  hear   about  it. 

Q.     Commissioner    Thomas:    Did    they    burn    your    house?      A. 


918 

Well,  I  heard  them  calling  from  the  street  to  know  where  the  house 
of  the  Sinn  Fein  chairman  of  the  council  was.  But  fortunately  they 
did  not  find  out,  although  I  was  about  thirty  yards  away  from  them 
at  the  time. 

Q.     li  ou  did  not  give  them  your  address? 

CONDENSED  MILK  FACTORY  WANTONLY  BURNED 

A.  No.  And  when  they  got  through  with  the  town,  they  pro- 
ceeded to  burn  the  condensed  milk  factory,  which  was  about  a  quar- 
ter of  a  mile  away. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Why  did  not  the  R.  I.  C,  who  had  lived 
in  the  town  with  you  and  knew  where  you  lived  and  the  rest  of  the 
people  lived,  tip  them  off?  A.  Well,  I  will  come  to  that  later. 
The  condensed  milk  factory  is  about  a  quarter  of  a  mile  outside  of 
the  town.  This  condensed  milk  factory  is  the  second  largest  in  the 
country,  and  it  employed  five  to  six  hundred  people. 

Q.  Residents  of  Mallow,  were  they?  A.  All  residents  of  Mal- 
low. And  I  need  not  tell  you  gentlemen  that  in  a  town  of  the  size 
of  Mallow,  any  factory  that  employs  five  or  six  hundred  people  is 
the  principal  source  of  employment  and  the  principal  source  of 
revenue  in  that  town.  The  people  actually  lived  on  it.  The  men 
who  worked  there  were  heads  of  families,  and  all  the  wages  from 
that  factory  were  spent  in  that  town.  And  so  it  was  a  great  loss  to 
the  town. 

When  the  soldiers  proceeded  to  that  factory,  I  and  some  of  the 
other  men  of  the  town  went  through  the  town  and  called  up  any  of 
the  citizens  who  remained  in  the  town,  and  called  out  the  fire 
brigade,  and  tried  as  best  we  could  to  put  out  the  fires. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  There  were  ten  fires  burning  at  once?  A. 
Ten  fires,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  That  was  when  the  soldiers  had  gone  to  the 
factory?  A.  They  had  gone  to  the  factory  by  then,  but  they  had 
not  left  the  town.  When  some  of  the  people  saw  us  trying  to  put 
out  the  fire,  they  came  out  of  their  houses  and  tried  to  help  us.  We 
organized  fire  brigades  and  bucket  brigades,  and  we  broke  connec- 
tion between  those  houses  that  were  burning  and  others  that  were 
not  burning.  And  we  were  very  fortunate,  because  none  of  the 
houses  besides  those  that  were  burning  were  lost. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  they  interfere  with  you  in  any  way  in  put- 
ting out  the  fire?  A.  When  they  came  back  from  the  factory  the 
men  from  Buttevant  and  Fermoy  went  back  in  their  lorries,  but  the 
men  from  the  town  came  on  back  very  drunk,  yelling  and  firing, 
and  one  of  the  men  who  was  working  to  put  out  the  fire  was  injured. 
Of  course,  there  were  so  many  shots  fired  that  somebody  was  bound 
to  get  hit.  I  don't  think  they  fired  to  kill  us,  but  to  frighten  us 
away. 


914 

Q.  Did  ihey  succeed?  A.  Well,  some  of  the  people  went  away, 
but  not  many  of  them. 

Q.  Were  there  any  threats  made?  A.  Yes.  I  myself  happened 
to  be  holding  a  hose  between  Mr.  Thompson's  garage  and  another 
house.  There  was  a  house  burning  between,  and  we  were  trying  to 
save  the  house  that  intervened.  MysSlf  and  a  chap  named  Baker  in 
the  town  had  hold  of  the  nozzle  of  the  hose,  and  were  trying  to  put 
out  the  fire.  One  of  these  soldiers  came  over  to  us, — he  was  very 
drunk, — and  he  put  a  bayonet  up  to  my  chest  and  said  he  would 
drive  it  through  me.  But  another  soldier  came  up  and  pulled  him 
away.  I  was  very  excited,  and  did  not  feel  the  danger  I  was  in,  and 
1  told  him  to  get  on  away,  and  turned  the  nozzle  towards  him.  The 
other  soldier  said,  "Leave  him  alone.  He  is  only  trying  to  put  out 
the  fire."  He  said,  "But  he  would  get  me  if  he  could."  But  they 
went  away. 

OFFICER  TAKES  DRUNKEN  SOLDIERS  TO 
BARRACKS 

I  forgot  to  say  that  the  officer  in  charge  of  the  Lancers  came  from 
the  barracks  after  they  went  away,  and  told  me  he  would  give  me 
all  the  assistance  that  he  could.  In  fact,  he  did  send  for  the  military 
hose  and  the  military  screws,  but  owing  to  the  difference  between 
our  screws  and  their  screws,  they  did  not  fit.  And  he  also  gave  me 
the  guarantee  that  the  military  under  his  control  would  not  hinder 
us  in  putting  out  the  fires.  After  this  threatening  by  this  soldier, 
I  called  the  attention  of  the  officer  to  it,  and  told  him,  "I  thought 
you  said  your  men  would  not  interfere  with  us.  Some  of  our  men 
have  had  narrow  escapes  from  firing,  and  one  of  your  men  has 
threatened  to  drive  his  bayonet  through  me."  He  seemed  to  be  very 
excited,  but  he  practically  said  he  had  lost  control  over  his  men. 
"Damn  it,"  he  said,  "they  are  all  drunk."  And  I  said,  "Well,  can 
you  take  your  men  out  of  here?  We  don't  need  any  protection. 
We  can  take  care  of  it  ourselves."  And  so  he  did  take  his  men 
away.  He  called  them  to  form  up  and  march  to  the  barracks.  And 
although  it  was  a  tragic  affair,  I  had  to  laugh  at  the  way  they  would 
form  up.  They  were  all  very  drunk,  and  they  fell  all  over  one 
another  in  their  effort  to  line  up.  And  on  the  way  to  the  barracks 
they  fired  their  revolvers  in  the  air. 

Q.  Had  this  officer  interfered  while  the  attack  on  the  town  was 
taking  place?  A.  No.  I  did  not  see  him  out,  and  nobody  in 
Mallow  saw  him  out  until  the  factory  was  being  attacked,  when  he 
came  out  to  bring  back  his  own  men.  But  he  did  not  interfere  in 
any  way  with  the  troops  from  the  other  towns. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Were  these  troops  from  the  other  towns  also 
drunk?  A.  Well,  some  of  them  were,  and  some  of  them  were 
absolutely  sober. 


915 

FACTORY  DESTROYED  WITH  GASOLINE  AND 
BOMBS 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  happened  at  the  factory?  A.  Well, 
the  factory  was  burned  to  the  ground,  so  much  so  that  about  400 
people  of  the  town  were  thrown  out  of  employment  at  once. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  whether  petrol  was  used  in  setting 
fire  to  the  factory?  A.  Oh,  yes.  They  used — what  do  you  call 
them — pumps? 

Q.  Sprays?  A.  Yes,  sprays.  And  they  sprayed  petrol  on  the 
factory  and  set  fire  to  it.  I  forgot  to  mention  that  in  the  factory 
there  were  a  couple  of  watchmen,  and  when  they  saw  them  coming 
(they  uttered  shouts  and  yells  about  Sinn  Fein  and  Ireland,  and 
were  firing  rifles  and  Mills  bombs,  and  shooting  into  the  air),  well, 
of  course,  these  two  men  did  not  stay  in  the  factory.  They  skipped. 
But  they  stayed  close  enough  to  see  what  was  taking  place  in  the 
factory.  A  large  amount  of  the  factory  is  glass;  and  through  the 
glass  they  saw  them,  under  the  electric  lights,  going  through  the 
factory  spraying  this  petrol  around. 

Q.  How  did  they  set  the  factory  afire, — did  they  use  incendiary 
bombs?  A.  Oh,  they  used  incendiary  bombs  on  practically  every 
house  in  town.  They  used  incendiary  bombs  in  the  factory,  too. 
They  were  very  powerful,  because  they  blew  some  of  the  machinery 
out. 

INSURANCE    COMPANIES    REFUSE   TO   PAY 
FOR  LOSSES 

Q.     Has  any  attempt  been  made  to  repair  the  factory?    A.    None. 

Q.  Has  any  compensation  been  paid  for  the  loss  of  the  factory? 
A.  None.  All  the  insurance  companies  say  their  policies  do  not 
cover  such  losses.  The  policies  were  ordinary  insurance  policies. 
The  companies  contended  they  did  not  include  riot. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Has  that  been  taken  into  the  courts  yet,  do 
you  know?  A.  Well,  I  heard  it  was  to  be  taken  into  the  courts, 
but  up  to  the  present  I  know  that  none  of  the  towns  that  have  been 
burned  have  got  any  insurance. 

ONLY  OBJECT  IN  BURNING  FACTORY  TO  DEPRIVE 
PEOPLE  OF  EMPLOYMENT 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Was  the  owner  of  this  condensing 
factory  a  Republican?     A.     No. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  he  identified  in  any  way  with  politics,  as 
far  as  you  know?  A.  As  far  as  I  know  he  had  the  name  of  being 
a  Unionist,  but  I  do  not  know.  He  was  a  Protestant  and  a  large 
employer  of  labor.     And  I  might  say  that  from  the  workers'  point 


916 

of  view  and  from  the  trade  unions'  point  of  view  he  is  one  of  the 
most  respected  men  in  Ireland.  He  is  the  sort  of  man  we  want  to 
live  in  Ireland.  He  lives  in  Ireland  and  gives  work  in  Ireland  and 
spends  all  his  money  in  Ireland.  He  gives  more  employment  in  the 
south  and  west  of  Ireland  than  anybody  else  I  know. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  He  owns  other  factories  in  Ireland?  A. 
Yes,  all  over  the  south  and  west  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  He  is  on  good  terms  with  labor?  A. 
Yes.  There  have  been  only  very  small  disturbances  in  his  factories. 
He  was  one  of  the  first  men  to  set  up  arbitration  courts.  The  firm 
is  the  Cleeves  Brothers.  Practically  all  of  their  employees  are  very 
satisfied  with  their  conditions. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Then  the  only  object  the  soldiers  could  have 
in  destroying  that  factory  was  to  throw  people  out  of  employment? 
A.     Yes,  that  was  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Do  you  know  whether  the  owner  of  that  factory 
has  been  knighted?  A.  Yes,  one  of  the  members  of  the  firm  is 
knighted, — Sir  Thomas  Cleeves. 

COLONEL'S  PLEDGE  TO  PROTECT  TOWN  OVER- 
RULED BY  SUPERIOR  AUTHORITIES 

Q.  What  happened  to  the  women  and  children  while  this  was 
taking  place?  A.  Well,  some  of  them  had  left  the  town  during  the 
day.  The  shop-keeping  class  had  left  town  and  had  gone  to  the 
country  to  friends  of  theirs.  But  the  majority  of  the  workers'  wives 
and  the  workers'  children  stopped  in  the  town.  In  fact,  the  Canon 
of  the  parish  and  the  Protestant  clergymen  of  the  parish, — the 
Protestant  rector  and  the  Presbyterian  minister  and  the  prominent 
men  in  the  town, — believed  what  the  colonel  had  told  them,  that  no 
reprisals  would  take  place.  And  so  we  did  our  best  to  keep  the 
people  in  the  town.  We  believed  that  the  officers  would  keep  their 
promise;  as  gentlemen  themselves  we  believed  they  would  do  it. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Did  the  clergymen  interview  this 
colonel  after  this  event?  A.  They  were  in  the  inquiry  that  took 
place  afterwards.  Nobody  would  be  let  into  that  inquiry  except  the 
clergy  and  the  people  who  actually  had  their  houses  burned,  and 
one  military  officer  who  happened  to  be  stopping  in  one  of  the  local 
hotels.  Any  ordinary  people  could  not  get  in.  I  myself,  although 
I  was  chairman  of  the  council  and  had  been  out  all  that  night,  and 
knew  exactly  what  took  place,  I  was  not  allowed  in. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  This  was  a  military  hearing?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  you  know  whether  the  clergymen 
asked  the  military  commander  about  what  took  place  that  night? 
A.  Well,  Canon  Corbett,  who  is  my  parish  priest,  told  me  he  did 
ask  him,  and  he  told  him  that  it  took  place  without  his  consent. 


91? 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  I  suppose  this  order  came  from  superior 
officers,  and  they  had  nothing  to  do  but  obey?  A.  Well,  I  could 
not  say  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  that  is  the  presumption. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  three  military  lorry  loads  of  soldiers,  with 
petrol  and  sprays  and  bombs,  could  not  come  without  orders  from 
above,  could  they,  and  arrive  at  the  same  time  from  sixteen  and 
seven  miles  distant?     A.     No. 

MILITARY  INQUIRY  MAKES  PUBLIC  NO  REPORT 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  report  did  this  inquiry  make?  A. 
None.     It  was  a  military  inquiry. 

Q.  What  report  came  from  the  authorities  in  England  on  this 
occasion?     A.     None  whatever. 

Q.  What  explanation  did  they  make  for  the  burning  of  this 
creamery?     A.     None. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  is  not  a  creamery  in  the  ordinary 
sense, — it  is  a  condensed  milk  factory?     A.     Yes. 

TWO  WOMEN  DIE,  OTHERS  HYSTERICAL,  FROM 
SHOCK  OF  TERROR  AND  EXPOSURE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Where  did  the  people  go  whose  houses  had  been 
burned?  A.  Well,  their  friends  in  the  town  took  them  in.  Those 
who  were  in  the  town  when  the  military  came  into  the  town  and 
started  roaring  and  started  firing  and  started  throwing  bombs, — you 
can  understand  the  condition  of  the  women  and  children  in  the 
town.  They  ran  out  of  their  houses  in  panic.  They  ran  to  the 
churches.  They  ran  to  the  convent.  Some  of  them,  indeed,  ran  to 
the  police  barracks.  And  the  R.  I.  C.  men  in  the  barracks  actually 
did  take  in  some  of  these  women  and  children  for  shelter  that  night. 
Some  of  them  in  the  immediate  neighborhood  of  the  fires  ran  into 
the  cemeteries  that  are  behind  their  houses. 

Q.  Did  some  of  them  spend  the  night  in  the  graveyard?  A. 
Yes.  There  is  a  graveyard  immediately  behind  the  Roman  Catholic 
Church  and  behind  the  Protestant  Church,  and  quite  a  number  of 
women  and  children  spent  the  night  sitting  on  the  grave  stones — on 
the  tombstones. 

Q.  Were  there  any  injuries  resulting  from  this  exposure?  A. 
Well,  one  woman,  Mrs.  Connolly,  who  had  a  baby  about  three  days 
previous  to  this, — she  had  to  get  up  out  of  bed  with  her  baby,  of 
course.  She  got  up,  with  nervousness  and  shock,  and  took  her  baby 
and  remained  out  in  the  graveyard  with  her  baby  all  night,  with  the 
result  that  she  got  pneumonia  and  died  two  or  three  days  after  this. 
The  baby  is  alive  yet.  Another  old  woman  who  went  to  the  grave- 
yard— 


918 

Q.  What  was  her  name?  A.  Mrs.  Quirk.  She  got  sick  and  lost 
her  head,  and  died  about  a  month  afterwards.  Another  lady,  one 
I  know,  had  a  baby  about  five  days  old.  She  went  away  from  her 
own  house,  and  went  to  a  neighbor  in  another  part  of  town  where 
the  fires  were  not  burning;  and  providentially  nothing  happened 
to  her,  although  she  suffered  from  nervous  shock  for  a  long  time 
afterwards. 

Q.  Did  many  of  the  people  suffer  from  nervous  shock  after  this? 
A.  Oh,  the  women, — practically  all  the  women.  The  next  day  most 
of  the  women  in  town  were  in  hysterics  and  crying,  all  the  next 
day.  The  state  of  the  children  was  something  fearful  from  this 
night  of  terror. 

LOCAL  COMMITTEE  SEEKS  TO  RELIEVE  SUFFER- 
ING FROM  DESTITUTION  CAUSED  BY  FIRE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  conditions  prevail  in  the  town 
now?  What  do  the  people  do  with  their  surplus  milk?  What  are 
the  conditions  of  employment?  A.  Well,  the  conditions  in  the 
town  are:  there  were,  besides  the  men,  a  number  of  girls  employed 
in  this  factory.  There  were  about  200  men  employed  there.  All 
the  girls  were  let  out  at  once,  and  about  fifty  men  have  been  kept  on 
to  square  up  the  debris  and  straighten  out  everything  that  would 
be  of  some  use.  A  lot  of  these  have  been  thrown  out  of  employment 
since,  because  Mr.  Cleeves  could  not  start  rebuilding  unless  he  got 
some  assurance  from  the  insurance  companies  that  he  would  get 
some  compensation  in  case  the  place  were  burned.  Because  if  a 
place  is  burned  out  once,  it  is  very  liable,  if  it  is  rebuilt,  to  be 
burned  again. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Has  there  been  any  suffering  in  Mallow? 
A.  Yes;  we  did  the  best  we  could.  We  took  up  a  collection  to 
relieve  the  suffering  in  the  town.  It  was  about  twelve  hundred 
pounds  when  I  went  away.  I  happened  to  be  on  the  committee 
through  my  position  as  chairman  of  the  council.  Some  of  the  men, 
and  women  too,  came  under  the  insurance  act.  The  men  would  get 
fifteen  shillings  a  week  and  the  women  would  get  eleven  shillings 
a  week. 

Q.     That  is  war  insurance?      A.     No,  unemployment  insurance. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  That  is  being  paid  now?  A.  It  will 
be  paid  for  three  months  afterwards. 

Q.     By  the  British  Government?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  They  have  an  insurance  policy?  A.  Yes, 
it  is  the  insurance  act  of  Lloyd  George,  where  the  employer  pays  a 
certain  amount  and  the  employee  pays  a  certain  amount,  and  the 
government  pays  a  certain  amount. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Then  they  are  only  getting  what  they  have 


919 

paid  for?  A.  Yes,  they  have  paid  for  it.  Well,  we  took  up  a 
collection  of  twelve  hundred  pounds,  and  we  had  a  committee  of 
twelve,  of  whom  four  were  picked  out  as  distributors,  who  dis- 
tributed to  the  neediest  families  the  amounts  the  committee  could 
afford  to  give  every  week.  According  to  the  size  of  the  family  of 
the  man.  we  gave  a  certain  amount.  Those  who  had  small  families 
got  a  small  amount,  and  those  who  had  large  families  got  larger 
amounts  to  supplement  the  insurance.  There  were  four  men  of  the 
committee  picked  out  who  know  the  town.  Two  of  them  were  the 
Catholic  curates.  Father  Roach  and  Father  Kelley.  And  we  divided 
the  town  into  four  different  wards  or  districts,  and  each  of  us  took 
a  district  and  went  around  the  town  every  Saturday,  either  in  the 
morning  or  in  the  evening,  and  gave  those  people  what  we  could. 
I  can  tell  the  Commission  that  when  we  started  to  distribute  what 
we  could  every  Saturday,  practically  all  these  houses, — at  least  95 
per  cent,  of  the  houses  that  we  went  into  in  my  portion  of  the 
town,  they  were  nice,  bright  little  homes;  it  would  have  done  you 
good  to  go  into  them.  Everyone  seemed  to  take  a  pride  in  keeping 
their  places  as  bright  and  nice  as  they  could.  Well,  in  six  or  eight 
weeks  I  have  seen  those  homes  destitute,  and  denuded  of  every  bit 
of  their  furniture  in  order  that  they  can  give  their  children  some- 
thing to  eat. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Selling  their  furniture  in  order  to  live?  A. 
Yes,  selling  their  furniture  in  order  to  live;  selling  it  below  cost 
price. 

Q.  Selling  it  when  they  could  get  no  market  for  it?  A.  Yes. 
Our  own  trades  union,  the  members  are  paying  five  shillings  a  week 
for  the  town;  and  the  farmers  and  the  district  around  there  are 
giving  what  they  can.  But  because  of  the  factory  being  burned,  the 
people  cannot  afford  to  give.  Every  shopkeeper  in  the  town  and 
every  merchant  has  lost  the  fifteen  or  sixteen  hundred  pounds  wages 
paid  out  by  the  factory  every  week.  That  money  is  stopped,  and 
the  merchants  are  suffering  too. 


TERRORISM    INTENSIFIES    DETERMINATION    FOR 
REPUBLIC 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  do  these  people  feel  towards 
the  Volunteers  who  picked  out  the  barracks  of  Mallow  for  raiding? 
Do  they  ever  reproach  them  for  taking  their  town  for  a  raid  on  the 
barracks  instead  of  some  other  barracks  for  a  thing  of  that  sort? 
A.  Well,  I  will  tell  you.  These  people  who  have  suffered,  as  well 
as  other  people  whom  I  know,  they  do  not  love  England,  and  never 
did;  but  since  their  homes  have  been  destroyed  and  their  places 
raided  and  their  furniture  has  been  broken  and  their  place  of  em- 


920 

ployment  has  been  burned  up,  that  has  intensified  the  hatred  of 
England  in  their  hearts  more  than  anything  else. 

Q.  Yes,  but  how  do  they  feel  towards  the  Irish  Volunteers,  who 
started  things?  A.  Well,  the  majority  of  the  people  are  Repub- 
lican. And  even  though  this  reign  of  terror  is  going  on  in  Ireland, 
the  majority  of  the  people  are  confirmed  Republican,  and  they  be- 
lieve and  they  say  it  that  the  people  must  suffer.  No  country  ever 
got  her  liberty  without  a  certain  amount  of  suffering.  And  we  as 
Republicans, — the  majority  of  the  people  in  Ireland, — 90  per  cent, 
of  the  people  in  Ireland,  I  should  say,  will  go  on  to  the  end,  through 
any  amount  of  suffering,  until  we  get  what  you  people  here  in 
America  have  got, — your  liberty. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  That  does  not  quite  answer  Miss  Addams' 
question.  Is  there  no  murmuring  against  the  Volunteers  for  having 
picked  on  Mallow? 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Instead  of  Fermoy,  for  instance?  A. 
Well,  I  could  not  justify  myself  here  if  I  said  there  was  no  mur- 
muring against  it.  You  will  get  isolated  cases  where  people  will 
say,  "Well,  it  isn't  worth  it."  It  would  be  ridiculous  for  me  to  say 
that  there  is  absolutely  no  murmuring.  But  I  would  say  that  the 
vast  majority  of  those  people  who  have  suffered— 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Are  willing  to  suffer  more?  A.  They  are 
willing  to  suffer  more.     They  are  willing  to  carry  on. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  They  regard  this  as  an  incident  of  war, — 
that  they  are  taken,  and  some  other  village  will  be  taken  next?  A. 
Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  the  Republicans  must  have 
arms  in  some  way?     A.     Yes,  exactly. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  more  Republicans  now  in  Mallow  than 
before  this  took  place?  A.  Yes,  because  at  the  time  of  the  elec'ion 
we  had  only  twelve  men  on  our  ticket.  Seven  of  them  were  Na- 
tionalists. But  practically  every  person  in  town  is  Republican  now. 
The  reign  of  terror,  instead  of  breaking  the  spirit  of  the  people, 
has  intensified  it. 

RELIGIOUS  DISCRIMINATION  UNKNOWN   IN 
MALLOW 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  And  that  regardless  of  religion?  A.  Abso- 
lutely regardless  of  religion. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  the  Protestant  clergymen  help  you,  Mr. 
Dempsey,  in  this  relief  work?  A.  Yes,  indeed.  We  have  got  a 
large  amount  of  money  from  Protestant  people. 

Q.  Do  the  Protestant  people  help  you  in  looking  after  those 
who  need  relief?  A.  Yes,  they  do.  But  of  course  the  Protestant 
population  in  Mallow  is  very  small,  and  there  are  no  poor  Protes- 


921 

tants  in  Mallow, — none  who  need  relief.  So  the  Protestant  ministers 
left  the  distribution  to  us.  But  they  have  contributed  money  and 
helped  us. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Do  the  Protestants  and  Catholics  meet 
together  and  trade  together  in  Mallow?     A.     Yes,  indeed. 

Q.  Are  there  any  discriminations  at  all?  A.  Oh,  no.  Some 
of  our  largest  merchants  in  Mallow  are  Protestants.  The  man  I 
was  just  telling  you  about,  Mr.  Quaile,  the  largest  tailor  in  the 
town,  is  a  Protestant.  And  the  largest  hardware  store  in  Mallow  is 
owned  by  a  Mr.  Burris,  a  Protestant.  The  Protestants  are  the  largest 
business  people  in  Mallow.  This  Mr.  Burris,  in  fact,  is  the  largest 
business  man,  and  I  should  say  undoubtedly  the  largest  trader  and 
richest  man  in  Mallow.     He  has  a  lumber  business  there  also. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  There  is  no  religious  trouble  in  Mal- 
low?   A.    None  whatever. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Has  there  ever  been  any  religious  trouble  in 
Mallow?     A.     None  whatever. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Are  these  men  Republicans  now?  A.  Well, 
I  would  not  say  they  were  all  Republicans,  but  I  know  that  this 
Mr.  Quaile  is. 

Q.  Who?  A.  This  Mr.  Quaile,  whose  place  was  burned  out. 
He  is  a  Republican  now.  But  this  Mr.  Burris  has  never  taken  much 
part  in  politics.    He  is  a  business  man  pure  and  simple. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  If  Ireland  were  a  Republic,  this  Mr. 
Burris  would  not  be  offended?     A.     No,  not  at  all. 

PEOPLE  PAY  FOR  DAMAGE  DONE  BY  TROOPS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  was  the  damage  clone  in  Mallow  by  these 
raids?  A.  Over  two  hundred  ninety-six  thousand  pounds.  (Read- 
ing from  paper)  :  £296,273:  5:  0.     Nearly  £300,000. 

Q.  Can  you  just  take  the  largest  claims  in  that  and  tell  us  about 
them?  A.  Well,  the  Condensed  Milk  Company  of  Ireland  is 
£150,000. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  have  these  claims  been  filed?  A.  They 
have  been  filed  in  the  courts. 

Q.  How  do  the  people  expect  to  get  paid?  A.  From  the 
British  Government,  of  course. 

Q.  Will  the  British  Government  pay  these  claims?  A.  I  don't 
believe  they  will.     They  have  not  paid  any  of  them  yet. 

Q.  Well,  is  there  a  law  by  which  such  claims  can  be  filed?  A. 
There  is,  but  the  country  is  under  martial  law  at  present,  and  it 
would  not  do  much  good. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  But  would  not  the  damage  be  put  on  the 


922 

Q.  So  that  your  own  community  would  have  to  pay  for  the 
damage  done  by  the  British  troops?     A.     Yes,  that  is  so,  ordinarily. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  That  comes  under  the  Malicious  Injuries  Act? 
A.  Yes,  any  damage  done,  any  malicious  damage  done  in  the 
town,  has  to  be  paid  by  the  rates. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Those  people  have  to  pay  for  the  damage 
clone  by  the  British  troops?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  So  that  the  Cleeves  Brothers  would  have  to 
pay  for  the  loss  of  their  own  factory,  since  they  are  the  largest  tax- 
payers in  the  town?  A.  Yes,  as  the  largest  taxpayers  in  the  town, 
they  would. 

FARCICAL  DISCIPLINE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that 
there  was  any  discipline  whatever  for  any  act  on  that  night  of  terror? 
A.     I  do  not  get  your  question,  sir. 

Q.  Have  the  British  Government  disciplined  any  of  the  soldiers 
who  took  part  in  the  destruction  of  property  on  that  night  of  terror 
in  Mallow?  A.  Well,  I  believe  that  after  the  inquiry  into  it,  they 
gave  some  slight  sentence  to  the  man  who  drove  the  lorries,  and 
they  gave  some  slight  sentence  to  the  man  who  brought  out  the  lorries 
without  the  consent  of  the  officer  in  charge.  But  they  said  they  could 
not  prove  that  these  men  were  engaged  in  any  of  the  damage  done. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Where  were  these  inquiries  held?  A.  In 
Buttevant  and  Fermoy.  And  the  only  punishment  given  was  that 
the  men  in  charge  of  these  lorries  were  given  a  few  days'  confine- 
ment to  barracks  for  letting  these  lorries  out  without  the  permission 
of  the  officer  in  charge. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  any  government  would  give  this  excuse 
for  acts  committed  on  such  a  scale  by  armed  bodies  of  its  own 
soldiers?  A.  I  understand  that  that  was  the  answer  given  in  the 
House  of  Commons  to  a  question  about  this  raid. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  there  any  officer  in  charge  of  the 
troops?     A.     There  seemed  to  be. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  There  was  some  man  in  direction  of  the 
operations?  A.  Yes,  there  was — a  big,  tall  man  in  a  long  over- 
coat, who  seemed  to  be  in  charge.  He  would  say,  "Come  on,  boys. 
We  will  take  this  one  now."' 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  he  in  an  officer's  uniform?  A.  Well, 
he  had  a  long  military  overcoat  over  him. 

STATEMENT  OF  ROBERT  N.  QUAILE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Now,  to  come  back  to  these  statements  in  the  two 
cases — those  of  Mr.  Quaile  and  Mr.  Forde. 

A.     The  Witness  (Reading):  "Late  Bank  Place,  Mallow."     Bank 


923 

Place  is  one  of  the  main  streets  of  Mallow.  Bank  Place  and  Main 
Street  were  the  two  streets  raided. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  I  understood  you  to  say  that  practically 
all  the  houses  in  town  were  raided.  A.  Well,  practically  the  whole 
town  is  on  one  street — this  long  main  street.  And  when  the  houses 
on  that  street  were  smashed,  practically  the  whole  town  was  wrecked. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Was  your  house  destroyed?  A.  No,  I  am 
out  on  the  west  end  of  the  town.  The  people  up  around  my  house 
are  mainly  Unionists,  and  my  house  did  not  happen  to  be  destroyed. 

Q.  There  was  some  indication,  then,  that  they  were  looking  for 
Republicans?  A.  Well,  they  do  not  usually  touch  people  who  are 
in  very  respectable  parts  in  Ireland;  I  mean  to  say  people  who  live 
in  large  houses.  Because  the  military  believe  that  the  people  who 
live  in  large  houses  are  mainly  Unionists.  That  is  not  to  say  that 
they  are  right  in  that  belief.  But  they  do  not  touch  large  houses, 
fearing  that  they  may  burn  out  a  Unionist. 

Q.  And  when  they  do  burn  out  a  Unionist,  it  is  a  mistake,  is  it? 
A.     Yes. 

Chairman  Wood:  That  is  a  poor  joke. 

The  Witness  (reading)  :  "Late  Bank  Place,  Mallow,  27th  Decem- 
ber, 1920." 

Q.  Late  Bank  Place?  A.  Yes,  it  was  Bank  Place,  and  it  was 
destroyed.       (Continues  reading)  : 

"In  accordance  with  your  request,  I  have  pleasure  in  sending  you 
herewith  particulars  of  the  damage  suffered  in  my  own  case  as  a 
consequence  of  the  reprisal  raid  made  by  the  military  on  Mallow  dur- 
ing the  night  of  the  28th  September  last. 

"That  the  raid  was  made  by  the  military  is,  I  think,  beyond  all 
dispute,  as  I  was  within  a  few  yards  of  the  incendiaries  when  my 
neighbor's  house  was  fired,  and  also  my  own.  A  plentiful  supply  of 
petrol  was  used  in  each  case  ;  and  immediately  previous  to  being  set 
on  fire,  revolver  shots  were  fired  through  the  windows  of  both  houses. 
The  men  were  dressed  in  khaki  uniform  and  wore  military  caps. 

"My  whole  premises  were  utterly  demolished,  and  absolutely  noth- 
ing could  be  saved  from  the  dwelling  house,  which  was  situated  over 
the  shop,  owing  to  the  firing  carried  on  in  the  street,  which  prevented 
any  egress  in  that  direction. 

"Yours  faithfully, 

(Signed)     "Robert  N.  Quaile." 

The  Witness:  Then  he  follows  by  giving  particulars: 

"Estimated  cost  of  rebuilding  house £3,500. 

"Stock,  fixtures,  and  shop  fittings 2,485. 

"Furniture  and  personal  property 1,665. 

"Consequential  damage,  including  loss  of  business,  and  erec- 
tion of  temporary  premises 500. 

£8,150. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  This  is  all  pounds?  A.  Yes,  pounds  sterling 
That  is  Mr.  Quaile's.     He  was  a  Unionist  and  a  Protestant,  one  of 


924 

the  Protestant  traders  of  Mallow.  The  Condensed  Milk  Company 
of  Ireland  looked  for  £150,000  of  damages;  Mr.  Cornelius  Forde, 
£10,000;  Mrs.  Ring,  £2,000. 

STORES  LOOTED 

Q.  What  was  Mrs.  Ring's?  Was  that  a  residence?  A.  About 
Mrs.  Ring  now.  Her  house  was  attacked.  It  was  one  of  the  last 
houses  that  was  attacked  before  the  factory  was  burned.  As  the 
soldiers  went  to  the  factory  I  and  a  few  more  young  men  from  the 
back  part  of  the  town,  we  came  to  that  house  first,  and  we  saved  it 
before  it  was  all  burned.  We  saved  quite  a  lot  of  stuff.  Some  stuff 
was  looted  by  the  military,  by  the  way. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  kind  of  a  store  was  it?  A.  A  dry 
goods  store.  They  looted  it  and  took  away  some  tweed  and  other 
stuff.  While  I  am  telling  you  about  that,  I  must  tell  you  about  the 
jeweler's  store.  We  have  only  one  jeweler  in  Mallow.  His  store 
was  also  looted,  but  not  burned.  His  windows  and  his  doors  were 
broken  open  by  the  butt  ends  of  rifles.  I  have  his  statement  here. 
About  £700  of  stuff  taken.  He  was  fortunate  in  that  he  took  away 
most  of  his  stock  during  the  day;  but  there  was  about  £700  of  stuff 
taken  as  it  was. 

STATEMENT  OF  JOHN  GEORGE  WEEDLE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  read  his  statement,  please?  A.  The 
Witness  (Reading)  : 

"143  Bank  Place,  Mallow. 

"On  the  night  of  the  27th  September,  1920,  my  shop  was  entered  by 
armed  soldiers  about  11:30  P.  M.  who,  forcing  the  shutters  with  iron 
bars,  smashed  the  plate-glass  windows,  shelves,  mirrors,  etc.,  and  stock. 
Shortly  after  12  another  soldier  entered  and  smashed  the  counter  glass 
cases,  and  striking  matches,  put  his  hand  into  the  case  and  took  some 
goods.  The  shop  was  again  entered  about  an  hour  later,  also  by  mili- 
tary, and  the  remaining  glass  wall  cases  were  smashed  and  goods 
damaged.  This  time  they  used  a  flash  lamp,  and  going  around  the 
shop,  took  some  more  goods. 

"The  total  loss  amounts  to  £700,  which  includes  £192  for  goods 
missing.  In  clearing  up  the  broken  glass  in  window,  I  found  a  button 
belonging  to  the  Lancer  Regiment. 

(Signed)     "John  George  Weedle." 

The  Witness:  That  is  for  goods  actually  missing.  Of  course,  they 
broke  all  his  shop  fittings  and  the  glass  inside. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Does  this  jeweler,  do  you  know,  show  up 
in  the  community  as  opposed  to  the  British  Government?  Why 
should  they  come  three  times  to  his  store?  A.  No,  he  doesn't  take 
any  prominent  part  in  politics.  They  simply  wanted  to  loot  his 
shop. 

Q.    Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  this  same  regiment  still  in  Mallow? 


925 

A.     No.     This  regiment  was  taken  out  of  Mallow  soon  afterwards. 
I  understand  that  they  were  sent  to  India. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  There  have  been  troubles  in  India 
recently.     Perhaps  their  arrival  there  may  account  for  it. 

TOWN  SAVED  FROM  DESTRUCTION  BY  FIRE 
BRIGADE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  these  houses  destroyed  all  in  one  row,  or 
were  they  in  different  parts  of  the  town?  A.  No,  they  were  in  dif- 
ferent parts  of  the  town. 

Q.  So  that  under  ordinary  circumstances  the  fire  would  have 
spread  and  destroyed  the  whole  town?  A.  Yes,  it  would.  If  we 
had  not  gone  out  and  put  out  the  fire,  the  town  would  have  been 
wiped  out.     In  fact,  we  rather  took  pride  in  what  we  had  done. 

Chairman  Wood:  I  well  think  you  might  be  proud  of  it. 

The  Witness:  You  see,  ours  is  only  a  volunteer  brigade,  and  we 
took  pride  in  the  fact  that  we  had  done  as  well  as  we  did. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Have  you  another  statement  there  from  Mr. 
Forde? 

Mr.  Manly:  We  can  let  that  go  until  after  lunch,  if  you  wish,  and 
then  he  can  bring  that  match  box  through  which  the  bayonet  was 
thrust. 

Chairman  Wood:  Very  well. 

HELPED  BY  LOCAL  POLICE  AND  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  I  wanted  to  ask  Mr.  Dempsey  why  the 
R.  I.  C.  and  the  other  troops  who  lived  in  the  town  did  not  give  you 
away.  A.  Well.  I  forgot  to  tell  you — I  was  just  going  to  mention 
it  a  short  time  ago,  that  the  R.  I.  C.  and  the  four  Black-and-Tans 
who  were  stationed  in  the  barracks  in  Mallow  did  their  best  to  help 
us  put  out  the  fire.     It  was  the  military  pure  and  simple. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Four  Black-and-Tans?  A.  Yes. 
They  were  ex-soldiers  who  had  served  in  the  army  all  during  the 
war,  or  in  the  navy.  They  were  among  the  best  of  the  Black-and- 
Tans. 

Q.  Then  the  Black-and-Tans  are  not  all  alike?  A.  Not  at  all. 
They  were  better  than  most  of  them. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Then  some  of  them  are  very  decent  fellows? 
A.     Yes,  they  are. 

UNEMPLOYMENT    INSURANCE   AND    RELIEF 
INADEQUATE  FOR  FAMILY  NEEDS 

Major  Newman:  Mr.  Dempsey,  I  want  to  ask  you  about  this  in- 
surance for  the  people  who  are  out  of  employment.     A.     Well,  the 


926 
men  are  receiving  15  shillings  a  week,  and  the  women  are  receiving 
11  shillings.     I  don't  know  what  that  would  be  at  the  rate  of  ex- 
change. 

Mr.  Manly:  Around  $2.75  to  $3  a  week. 

Q.  That  applies  only  to  those  who  have  policies?  A.  It  would 
not  include  everybody  in  the  factory,  but  it  would  include  a  good 
deal. 

Q.  It  applied  only  to  those  who  had  paid  on  their  policies?  A. 
Yes,  only  to  those. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  know  is  to  what  extent  that  exists  in  other 
parts  of  Ireland.  A.  It  applies  pretty  generally  in  the  factory 
towns,  I  should  say. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  long  does  this  last?  A.  Only  for 
three  months. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  If  it  only  lasts  for  three  months,  it  is  over 
now.  And  how  is  it  supported  now?  A.  By  volunteer  contribu- 
tions from  the  workers.     The  workers  put  a  tax  upon  themselves. 

Q.  Well,  the  eighteen  hundred  pounds  that  you  said  you  raised, 
is  that  exhausted?  A.  Well,  it  was  not  exhausted  at  the  time  I 
went  away.  We  had  a  couple  of  hundred  of  pounds  left.  And  some 
money  is  coming  on  all  the  time.  But  unless  we  get  outside  help,  it 
cannot  last. 

Q.  But  the  description  you  gave  of  the  denuded  premises  show 
that  the  people  are  trying  to  help  themselves,  and  are  making  every 
effort  to  supply  their  own  needs.  A.  Yes,  they  are.  I  need  not 
tell  you  that  the  cost  of  living  in  Ireland  is  very  high.  These  people, 
some  of  them,  are  getting  15  shillings  a  week  on  their  unemploy- 
ment policies,  and  some  of  them  are  getting  10  shillings  a  week  from 
us.  That  would  be  25  shillings.  To  get  10  shillings  from  us  they 
would  have  to  have  4  children  or  over.  And  25  shillings  will  not 
provide  enough  for  a  family  of  that  size  to  live  on. 

FOOD   AVAILABLE  FOR  THOSE  WITH   MONEY 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  there  food  there  for  them  to  buy  if  they 
do  have  the  money?  A.  Well,  of  course,  in  some  places  in  Ireland 
much  food  has  been  destroyed;  but  we  are  lucky  around  Mallow. 
The  food  is  there  if  they  can  buy  it. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  of  the  prices? 
A.  Well,  tea  is  4  shillings  a  pound;  sugar,  ten  pence  a  pound;  and 
the  price  of  meat  would  be  about  two-and-six-pence  a  pound. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  kind  of  meat  would  that  be?  A.  Ordi- 
nary meat — beef  steaks  and  the  like. 


927 

FARMERS  MUST  SELL  CATTLE  OR  SHIP  MILK 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  the  farmers  around  in  that  district 
who  supplied  milk  to  the  condensery?  A.  Well,  quite  a  lot  of 
the  farmers  in  the  district  have  had  to  sell  their  cattle  off,  but  there 
are  a  number  of  them  who  are  taking  their  milk  to  the  small  cream- 
eries in  the  neighborhood.  And  Cleeves  has  sent  a  lorry  around  to 
get  milk  for  a  small  creamery  at  Kanturk,  which  is  a  small  town 
about  12  miles  from  Mallow. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  there  enough  milk  produced  near  the 
town  to  supply  the  people  there?  A.  Well,  in  the  town  there  are 
dairy  farms,  and  these  people  have  always  supplied  the  milk  for 
the  town.     They  have  alwavs  supplied  it,  and  do  so  now. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  the  people  buy  their  bread,  or  do 
they  bake  it  themselves?      A.     They  bake  it  themselves. 

Q.  Do  they  bake  it  in  stoves  or  ovens?  A.  They  have  little 
ovens,  and  they  bake  it  in  that. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  Commission  will  adjourn  until  after  lunch. 
112:25  p.  m.  I 

2:10  P.  M. 

Chairman  Wood:  The  Commission  will  convene  again,  please,  and 
Mr.  Dempsey  is  going  to  continue  to  tell  us  some  more  about  the 
situation  in  Mallow. 

STATEMENT  OF  CORNELIUS  FORDE 

Mr.  Basil  M.  Manly:  Shall  we  take  up  first  the  individual  case  of 
Mr.  Forde  and  the  box? 

Chairman  Wood:  Oh,  yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Will  you  relate  the  incident,  Mr.  Dempsey?  A. 
Mr.  Forde  had  a  very  large  dry  goods  store  in  the  town  of  Mallow, 
and  his  place  was  the  second  place  in  Mallow  that  was  attacked. 
The  town  hall  was  the  first  place. 

Q.  What  was  Mr.  Forde's  politics?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Forde  did 
not  interfere  much  in  politics.  He  is  what  is  called  a  sympathetic 
Sinn  Feiner. 

Q.  Was  he  a  member  of  any  active  political  organization?  A. 
No,  he  was  not. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  He  was  rather  passive  and  peaceful?  A.  I 
beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  He  rather  leaned  toward  peace?  A.  Well,  he  was  a  Repub- 
lican in  this  sense:  he  favored  the  Republic,  but  I  have  never  known 
him  to  be  an  active  member  of  or  connected  with  any  Republican 
organization.  He  was  a  business  man  pure  and  simple.  If  you 
like,  I  can  give  you  his  statement. 

Chairman  Wood:  If  you  please. 

The  Witness  (Reading)  : 


928 

"My  house  was  broken  into  by  armed  forces  in  uniform  on  Septem- 
ber 27th  at  11 :1S  P.  M.  The  door  was  broken  in  by  the  butts  of  rifles, 
and  all  the  beds  in  the  house,  including  the  children's,  were  bayonetted. 
This  was  seen  from  the  two  adjoining  houses.  And  we  give  you  the 
further  accompanying  proof  in  the  little  tin  tobacco  box,  which  is 
perforated  with  a  bayonet  thrust.  This  box  was  given  in  bed  to  the 
child  Sheila,  aged  11  months,  to  play  with  while  her  mother  dressed 
to  leave  the  town;  and  we  afterwards  found  the  box  in  the  debris. 
You  will  note  where  the  clasp  of  the  bayonet  also  left  a  dent  in  the 
box,  establishing  beyond  question  that  it  is  a  bayonet  thrust. 

"Established  in  business  only  six  years,  and  having  no  other  means 
of  a  livelihood,  I  am  thrown  absolutely  penniless  with  my  wife  and 
two  children.     All  we  possessed  was  in  our  warehouse  in  goods. 

"After  searching  my  house,  tins  of  gasoline  were  poured  on  the 
goods,  and  the  place  was  set  on  fire.  Local  assistance  got  the  fire 
under  control,  and  when  it  looked  as  if  the  top  part  of  the  premises 
would  be  saved,  the  local  fire  brigade  were  fired  on,  with  the  result 
that  the  fire  caught  hold  again,  and  everything  myself  and  family  had 
was  lost, — absolutely  nothing  saved.  (The  Witness:  That  was  the  first 
time  that  we  were  fired  upon,  and  had  to  clear  out.) 

"I  hereby  declare  I  was  never  connected  with  any  political  society 
and  was  not  connected  in  any  way  with  Sinn  Fein  or  other  societies. 
1  do  not  know  why  I  should  be  burned.  There  was  nothing  against 
me  whatever. 

(Signed)     "Cornelius  Forde, 
"65  Main   Street,   Mallow,   Ireland, 

"December  28,  1920." 

The  Witness:  He  employed  16  hands,  and  these  are  all  now  out  of 
work  except  five,  who  got  work  in  other  places.  This  is  a  photo- 
graph of  his  wife  and  two  children,  and  it  says,  "Thomas  Forde, 
aged  three  and  a  half  years,  and  Sheila  Forde,  aged  eleven  months." 
Sheila  Forde  was  the  little  girl  in  whose  bed  the  tobacco  box  was 
put  for  her  to  play  with  when  her  mother  was  dressing  to  leave  town 
on  the  day  of  the  raid. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly  (indicating  box)  :  That  was  the  box  that  was 
given  you  by  Mr.  Forde?  A.  Yes.  Just  pass  it  around.  (The 
exhibit  is  inspected  by  the  Commission). 

BEDS  BAYONETED  FOR  SHEER  VANDALISM 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Is  it  the  idea  that  the  bayoneting  of  the 
bed  was  to  bayonet  people,  or  to  search  the  beds  for  arms?  A. 
Well,  I  don't  believe  myself  that  they  thought  a  child  was  in  the 
bed.  God  knows  they  have  sent  enough  people  to  death,  but  I  don't 
think  they  would  go  that  far.  But  I  do  think  they  bayoneted  the  bed 
to  destroy  everything  they  could. 

Q.  Well,  of  course,  they  might  bayonet  the  bed  if  they  were  look- 
ing for  revolvers.  A.  Well,  I  don't  think  they  would  be  foolish 
enough  to  hunt  for  revolvers  with  bayonets.  Revolvers  are  usually 
handled  more  careful  than  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  time  did  that  take  place?  Was  it  after 
dark?      A.     Yes,  11  o'clock. 

Q.     Do  you  know,  from  the  accounts  of  the  neighbors  who  saw 


929 

this,  that  the  house  was  well  lighted  while  this  was  going  on?  A. 
It  was  well  lighted,  because  they  were  seen  from  other  houses  going 
through  the  house.  Mr.  Forde's  house  is  on  a  very  narrow  street, 
and  people  saw  them  going  through  the  house.  In  fact,  a  young 
chap  named  Sheehan  did  see  them  go  through  the  house  bayonet- 
ing different  things. 

RAIDERS  IN  UNIFORM  OF  ENGLISH  FORCES 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  I  was  interested  by  Mr.  Forde's  statement 
that  they  were  in  uniform.  How  much  of  the  uniform  could  he  see? 
A.  He  could  see  that  they  were  in  the  uniform  of  the  English  armed 
forces.     He  saw  that  much.     I  saw  them  myself. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Well,  I  suppose  he  was  in  the  house  when 
they  came  in.  A.  No,  he  was  not.  He  was  one  of  those  who  left 
the  house  and  left  the  town  with  his  wife  and  children.  My  own 
opinion  is  that  some  of  the  men  who  left  the  town  had  a  right  to  stop 
in  town. 

Q.  You  mean  that  they  ought  not  to  have  gone?  A.  I  believe, 
of  course,  I  may  be  wrong  in  my  belief,  but  I  believe  that  if  any- 
body comes  in  to  break  up  or  blow  up  the  town,  that  the  men  in 
the  town  should  do  their  best  to  protect  the  town.  Of  course,  I  don't 
think  that  any  man  should  go  out  and  fight  when  he  has  no  arms. 
But  even  at  the  risk  of  death,  I  do  think  a  man  should  do  the  best 
he  can  to  protect  his  own  home  and  his  own  town. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Any  further  questions  that  we  want  to  ask 
Mr.  Dempsey? 

WILFUL  MURDER  OF  DISABLED  EX-SOLDIER 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  matters  that  we  have  overlooked, 
Mr.  Dempsey?  Have  there  been  any  more  recent  occurrences? 
A.  Yes.  About  ten  or  eleven  days  afterwards.  Of  course,  the  day 
after  the  burning  of  the  town  and  the  shooting  of  the  soldier  and 
the  attack  on  the  barracks — and  I  might  mention  in  regard  to  the  at- 
tack on  the  barracks  that  it  was  not  a  mere  raid — it  was  a  perfectly 
legal  act  of  war.  Both  sides  took  their  chances,  and  they  got  the 
enemy  at  the  weakest  possible  time  there — they  took  their  chances 
that  any  side  in  war  would  naturally  take.  Curfew  was  put  on  the 
town  about  two  days  after  the  attack  on  the  barracks.  After  ten  or 
eleven  days — about  the  seventh  or  eighth  of  October,  I  believe, 
behind  the  military  barracks  in  Mallow  there  is  a  public  park.  This 
public  park  was  appropriated  by  the  council  of  the  town  for  the 
benefit  of  the  townspeople  as  a  sort  of  sports  field  and  general  walk 
for  the  townspeople.  It  is  situated  in  a  very  nice  position.  It  is 
just  on  the  banks  of  the  Black  Water,  which  flows  through  the  town 
of  Mallow.     The  people  walk  there  in  the  summer  time.     The  river 


930 

there  is  very  shallow,  and  the  children  play  along  the  banks  of  the 
river.  The  town  park  was  not  put  outside  of  military  bounds  in  any 
way,  and  the  people  of  the  town  used  to  walk  down  to  this  park 
every  day.  And  it  was  a  sort  of  short  cut  from  the  southern  end  of 
the  town  to  the  western  end  of  the  town.  But  this  particular  morn- 
ing a  man  named  Turner,  who  had  served  through  five  years  of  the 
war  and  who  came  out  of  it  wounded — not  badly  wounded,  but  who 
had  a  pension  from  the  British  Government;  he  stopped  in  the 
eastern  end  of  the  town,  and  he  was  coming  to  the  western  end  of 
the  town  where  the  town  clerk  lives. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Was  he  a  soldier?  A.  No,  he  was  out  of 
the  army. 

Q.  Pensioned?  A.  Yes;  he  was  coming  from  his  home  to 
where  the  town  clerk  lives. 

Q.  He  was  a  citizen  of  the  town?  A.  Yes,  he  was.  He  was 
going  up  to  the  town  clerk  with  some  papers  in  connection  with  his 
discharge.  As  well  as  being  the  town  clerk,  the  clerk  has  something 
to  do  in  connection  with  the  labor  exchange  and  pensions,  and  his 
papers  had  to  go  through  him.  He  was  making  a  short  cut  through 
the  park.  It  was  in  the  morning,  about  ten  o'clock.  There  was 
nobody  else  in  the  park  except  a  railroad  man,  who  happened  to  be 
having  a  walk  along  the  river  too.  When  they  came  in  line  with 
the  barracks  this  morning,  this  man  was  shot  at.  The  first  shot 
missed  him.  He  was  about  five  hundred  yards  from  the  barracks  at 
the  time.  The  second  shot  hit  him,  and  he  fell.  The  railroad  man,  who 
was  about  15  yards  away  from  him,  saw  the  man,  and  he  heard  the 
shots,  and  saw  the  sentry  in  the  act  of  firing  from  the  barracks  walls 
about  five  hundred  yards  from  where  the  man  was  shot.  The  rail- 
road man  himself  got  nervous,  and  the  bank  along  the  river — he  was 
walking  along  the  bank — was  a  bit  high  in  this  place.  And  he 
thought,  when  he  saw  this  man  fall,  that  the  next  thing  they  would 
do  would  be  to  fire  at  him.  So  he  ducked  down  behind  the  bank, 
and  he  saw  the  sentry  come  down  from  the  barracks,  and  come  down 
as  far  as  the  man  who  had  been  shot.  This  sentry  looked  at  him, 
and  he  called  to  the  barracks, — he  signaled  to  the  barracks  for  assist- 
ance. They  brought  down  a  stretcher  and  they  took  the  man  back 
to  the  barracks.  He  was  badly  wounded — a  bullet  wound  right 
through  the  stomach.  And  he  died  three  days  afterwards.  This 
railroad  man,  when  he  saw  them  carrying  him  away,  ran  for  a  priest 
and  a  doctor. 


WANTON  FIRING  ON  UNARMED  TOWNSPEOPLE 

Before  they  carried  him  away,  soldiers  came  down  to  look  at  him. 
While  the  soldiers  were  looking  at  him,  he  went  for  the  priest  and 
the  doctor.     And  the  priest  and  doctor  had  arrived  in  the  park  be- 


931 

fore  the  man  was  actually  carried  to  the  barracks  by  the  military. 
But  when  the  shots  were  heard,  and  the  priest  and  doctor  were  seen 
running  towards  the  park,  quite  a  number  of  the  townspeople 
gathered  in  the  other  end  of  the  park  to  see  what  was  wrong.  The 
military  came  out,  and  they  fired  at  the  people  in  the  park.  I  do  not 
say  they  fired  to  kill  them,  because  none  of  them  were  shot,  but  they 
fired  as  a  matter  of  terrorism  pure  and  simple.  Meantime,  they 
took  him  to  the  barracks,  where  the  wounds  were  tended  to,  and  then 
they  took  him  to  the  Cork  Military  Hospital,  where  he  died  three 
days  afterwards. 

BROTHER'S  ONLY  SATISFACTION  A  THREAT 

This  man's  brother.  Turner,  who  had  served  all  through  the  war. 
and  who  had  distinguished  himself  in  the  battle  of  Jutland  (how 
much  the  English  forces  distinguished  themselves  there,  I  don't 
know),  but  he  distinguished  himself  in  some  way  or  other,  and  got 
a  medal.  And  he  went  to  the  officer  of  the  barracks  and  asked  him 
whey  they  fired  on  his  brother,  and  the  officer  answered  him,  "It  was 
a  good  job  that  you  were  not  there,  too,  or  you  would  have  got 
something  also."  And  the  brother  said,  "It  serves  us  right,  my 
brother  and  me  too,  for  fighting  for  England."  That  conversation 
I  heard  from  the  brother  about  ten  minutes  after  it  happened. 

GOVERNMENT'S  SOLE  EXCUSE  A  FALSEHOOD 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  any  inquiry  made — any  explanation?  A. 
They  did.  They  held  an  inquiry  into  it.  There  was  a  question  in 
the  House  of  Commons,  and  the  answer  to  the  question  was  that  the 
barracks  was  being  attacked,  and  they  fired  in  self-defense.  Well, 
the  barracks  was  being  attacked  by  a  man  who  had  been  coming 
through  the  park  with  his  discharge  papers,  and  he  attacked  the 
barracks  by  being  fired  at. 

Q.  Could  you  give  the  name  of  the  railroad  man?  A.  His 
name  is  Wright. 

Chairman  Wood :  Unless  there  is  some  other  question,  we  are  very 
much  obliged  to  you  for  coming  to  us,  Mr.  Dempsey,  with  this  very 
interesting  story  that  you  have  given  us. 

AN  EYE-WITNESS  OF  EVENTS  IN  MALLOW 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  there  any  further  instances,  Mr.  Dempsey? 
A.  Well,  I  don't  know  of  any.  If  Miss  Addams  or  any  of  the 
gentlemen  would  wish  to  ask  me  questions,  I  should  be  very  happy 
to  give  you  anything  that  I  can  give.  I  may  state  that  all  that  I 
have  given  in  evidence  here  I  have  been  practically  a  witness  of 
myself.     I  have  been  on  the  grounds  myself  in  Mallow. 


932 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  In  all  the  instances  in  your  testimony  where 
you  have  not  been  a  witness  yourself,  where  what  you  have  told  has 
been  given  to  you,  if  you  have  got  it  from  somebody  else,  have  you 
indicated  each  time  the  source  of  your  information,  like  this  last 
story  that  this  soldier's  brother  told  you?  A.  Yes,  I  have.  That 
soldier's  brother  told  me  that  himself.  And  the  other  things  I  have 
witnessed  myself.  I  was  there  all  through  the  burning.  And  when 
I  was  not  there,  my  mother-in-law  and  my  family  were  there.  And 
every  other  answer  I  have  given,  I  have  given  as  I  heard  it  from  the 
people  themselves. 

WAR  ON  A   DEFENSELESS  TOWN 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  I  want  to  ask  you  a  question.  On  the 
night  that  the  town  was  wrecked  and  the  town  hall  was  burned,  how 
many  soldiers  came  in  at  that  time?     A.     Approximately  about  90. 

Q.     And  the  population  of  the  town  is  what?     A.     About  4,500. 

Q.  It  means  that  there  would  be  about  1,000  or  2,000  men  and 
boys  in  the  town.     A.     There  would  be  about  2,000,  yes. 

Q.  It  is  very  evident  that  you  are  not  armed.  A.  Of  course 
we  are  not. 

Q.  I  should  think  you  could  beat  such  a  mob  up.  A.  Well,  if 
the  townspeople  had  been  armed,  they  would  not  have  allowed  the 
town  to  be  burned  up. 

Q.  There  you  were,  an  unarmed  people  living  peacefully  in  your 
own  town,  and  an  army  of  90  armed  men  came  in  and  made  war 
on  you.  A.  That  is  the  situation,  exactly.  That  is  the  situation  as 
it  was  on  the  night  of  the  27th  of  September.  I  was  there,  and  saw 
the  whole  thing  myself. 

Q.  I  suppose  ten  armed  men  could  have  done  the  same  damage. 
A.     Yes,  they  could,  exactly. 

Q.  Ten  armed  men,  who  had  the  full  power  of  the  Government 
back  of  them  to  commit  damage  indiscriminately  on  a  defenseless 
people,  could  have  done  the  same  thing.  A.  Ninety  men,  I  might 
say,  came  in  with  all  the  modern  utensils  of  war.  And  they  had 
ten  to  fourteen  from  the  barracks  of  Mallow.  There  was  something 
more  than  a  hundred  of  them. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  When  you  say  90  men,  you  mean  the  men 
who  came  in  these  lorries?  A.  Yes,  exactly.  There  are  about  30 
men  to  a  lorry. 

Q.  How  were  they  armed?  A.  Well,  they  were  armed  with 
rifles,  bombs,  revolvers,  bayonets,  petrol,  and  all  the  modern  im- 
plements of  war. 


9.33 

OUTRAGES  EMBITTER  PEOPLE  AGAINST  SOLDIERS 

Q.  Chairman  Wood.  Has  there  been  any  change  in  the  rela- 
tionships of  the  townspeople  with  the  soldiers  since  this  happened? 
A.  Of  course  there  has  been.  Before  this  a  lot  of  the  people  were 
friendly  to  them.  A  lot  of  them,  until  it  came  home  to  themselves, 
hardly  believed  the  stories  told  about  the  soldiers  in  other  towns. 
Then  they  saw  what  happened  in  Mallow.  Some  of  the  people  who 
were  burned  out,  their  sympathies  were  all  the  other  way.  For 
instance,  that  Protestant  and  Unionist,  Mr.  Quaile,  his  sympathies 
were  all  against  us.  Well,  his  house  and  his  whole  place  of  business 
was  burned  out  for  nothing  at  all. 

LOCAL  POLICE  DO  NOT  ATTACK  TOWN 

Q.  You  say  that  some  of  them  behaved  very  well  about  aiding 
with  the  extinction  of  the  fire,  and  with  helping  the  women  and 
children  find  shelter?  A.  Yes,  the  local  police  force  did.  A  good 
deal  of  the  women  and  children  of  the  town  ran  to  the  barracks  for 
shelter,  and  got  it  there.  And  some  of  the  local  police  force  came 
out  with  the  Black-and-Tans  who  were  there  and  helped  us  control 
the  fire.  We  are  very  lucky  in  Mallow,  because  we  have  only  four 
Black-and-Tans  stationed  in  the  town.  That  is  due  to  the  fact  that 
we  have  got  a  military  barrack  in  the  district.  It  is  only  in  towns 
and  villages  where  there  is  a  military  barrack  that  they  are  not 
sending  the  auxiliaries  and  the  Black-and-Tans.  The  four  men  that 
we  got  there,  I  believe,  are  different  from  the  ordinary  Black-and- 
Tans,  for  on  that  night  they  did  all  they  could  to  help  us  save  the 
town. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  They  have  some  human  characteristics,  in 
©ther  words?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  say  these  men  were  drunk.  Were  they 
drunk  when  they  came,  or  did  they  get  drunk  after  they  came?  A. 
They  got  drunk  after  they  came.  They  confiscated  all  the  drink  they 
could  find  in  the  towrn. 

Senator  Norris:  Well,  they  wanted  to  destroy  the  liquor.  They 
made  themselves  prohibition  enforcement  officers.  What  they  could 
not  drink  they  destroyed. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  it  is  a  fact  that  of  the  forty  or  fifty  soldiers 
stationed  there,  only  twelve  or  fourteen  came  out  and  took  part? 
A.     Yes. 

Q.  So  it  was  not  the  people  who  were  in  the  barrack  when  it  was 
attacked  who  participated  in  the  burning  that  night  A.  Yes,  the 
local  lancers  did  not  participate  in  the  attack. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  men  who  were  attacked  did  not  take  part 
in  the  raids?     A.     That  is  right. 


934 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  Lancer  regiment  has  been  sent  off 
since  then?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  the  same  R.  I.  C.'s  and  Black-and-Tans  are  there  now? 
A.     They  have  been  increased  since  then. 


MARAUDING  BLACK-AND-TANS  VICTIMIZE 
MALLOW  MERCHANTS 

Q.  Has  there  been  increased  friction  there  since  this  occurrence? 
A.  Yes,  there  has  been.  Lorries  loaded  with  Black-and-Tans  have 
come  into  the  town  since  then.  I  have  seen  two  instances  of  it  my- 
self. I  was  coming  home  from  work  one  evening,  and  outside  of 
the  police  barracks  were  about  7  or  8  empty  lorries.  I  learned  that 
they  had  been  full  of  Black-and-Tans,  and  they  had  gone  into  prac- 
tically every  shop  in  the  town  and  had  demanded  food  and  drink, 
and  got  food  and  drink,  and  when  they  were  going  away  they  refused 
to  pay  for  it  and  said,  "Foot  the  bill  to  de  Valera." 

ALL  FIREARMS  ABSOLUTELY  PROHIBITED 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Do  the  hardware  stores  in  towns  like 
that  carry  guns  and  ammunition?     A.     They  are  not  allowed  to. 

Q.  No  guns  or  ammunition  of  any  kind?  A.  No,  they  are  not 
allowed  to  sell  guns  or  ammunition  or  anything  like  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  How  long  has  that  been  true?  A.  Well,  they 
were  allowed  to  sell  cartridges  for  shooting  wild  ducks  and  game  of 
that  sort  up  to  about  two  years  ago.  But  after  that  it  has  been  done 
away  with. 

Q.  So  it  is  impossible  for  an  Irishman  to  buy  firearms  of  any 
sort  now?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  But  how  about  an  Irishman  going 
over  to  England  and  buying  them  over  there?  They  are  allowed 
to  sell  them  over  there,  are  they  not?  A.  You  could,  but  you 
would  be  caught  with  them  coming  over,  and  they  would  be  taken 
away  from  you.  Under  the  present  martial  law  regime,  if  you  are 
caught  with  a  rifle  or  a  revolver  you  will  be  shot. 

PEOPLE  DISARMED,  THEN  WARRED  UPON 

Q.  As  I  understand  the  situation  in  Ireland,  the  people  of  Ireland 
have  been  by  decree  of  law  disarmed,  and  after  being  without  any 
means  of  protection,  then  an  army  of  a  hundred  or  a  hundred  and 
fifty  thousand  men  has  been  sent  in  there  to  make  war  on  them.  Is 
that  the  impression  that  you  get?  A.  That  is  the  condition  in 
Mallow.     That  was  the  condition  there  on  the  night  of  September  27. 


935 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Except  that  there  are  not  a  hundred  and 
fifty  thousand  soldiers,  are  there?  x  A.  No,  there  are  about  one 
hundred  thousand  there  now,  as  nearly  as  we  can  judge. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Well,  it  doesn't  require  much  courage 
to  be  a  soldier  under  those  conditions,  does  it?      A.     No,  sir. 

IRELAND  READY  TO  GIVE  EVIDENCE  BEFORE 
WORLD 

Before  I  finish,  I  would  just  like  to  thank  you  for  your  patient 
hearing.  And  I  hope  that  the  great  people  of  America  will  deserve 
the  blessing  of  Ireland.  We  are  prepared  to  give  our  evidence 
straight  before  any  court,  any  commission,  or  any  people  in  the 
world.  The  facts  are  there.  The  facts  of  Mallow,  as  I  gave  them 
to  you,  are  true.  And  the  facts  in  other  parts  of  Ireland  are  the 
same  as  I  have  given  them  to  you.  And  we  are  not  afraid  to  face 
any  audience  in  the  world  with  the  evidence  I  have  given  you. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  Dempsey,  will  you  leave  the  records  with 
the  Commission  that  you  have  read  here?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Are  those  records  filed  with  the  council? 
A.  Yes,  filed  with  the  clerk  of  the  council  of  which  I  am  the  chair- 
man. 

The  Commission :  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Dempsey. 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  excused.) 


TESTIMONY  OF  MR.  J.  L.  FAWSITT 

Chairman  Wood:  Mr.  Fawsitt,  will  you  take  the  stand,  please,  sir? 

(Witness  takes  stand.) 

Q.  Chairman  Wood :  Mr.  Fawsitt,  it  is  very  good  of  you  to  come 
down  and  talk  to  us.  First  of  all,  will  you  state  your  name  and 
residence,  and  the  official  position  you  hold,  for  our  record?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  J.  L.  Fawsitt.  I  am  from  Cork  City,  Ireland.  I  am  in 
this  country  as  Consul-General,  representing  the  interests  of  the 
Republican  Government  of  Ireland. 

Q.  And  your  American  residence?  A.  119  Nassau  Street,  New 
York.  In  Ireland  I  occupied  the  position  analogous  to  that  of  a 
secretary  to  one  of  your  chambers  of  commerce.  For  the  past  seven- 
teen years  I  have  been  associated  with  the  work  for  the  industrial 
development  of  Ireland.  That  has  been  my  study  and  my  sole  occu- 
pation in  that  time. 

Q.  We  should  be  very  glad,  sir,  if  you  would  give  us  something 
of  the  background  and  the  economic  conditions  in  Ireland,  we  will 


1  Mr.  Arthur  Griffith's  estimate  of  the  minimum  number  of  British  forces 
in  Ireland  is  150,000  men.  See  evidence,  p.  148.  The  number  lately  has 
been  largely  increased. 


936 

say,  prior  to  the  recent  development  of  your  Government  there. 
And  then  sketch  for  us,  if  you  will,  the  outline  of  the  Government 
as  it  has  grown  up. 

CATTLE  DISPLACE  HUMAN  BEINGS  IN  IRELAND 

Commissioner  Howe:  Would  you  mind  going  back,  in  your  begin- 
ning at  least, — I  don't  mean  to  suggest  that  you  should  devote  any 
more  time  to  it  than  you  want — but  back  to  the  time  of  the  Hungry 
Forties?  I  am  particularly  interested  in  the  economic  changes  in 
Ireland  that  came  in  prior  to  the  Land  Purchase  Acts  and  other 
activities.  A.  The  industrial  position  of  Ireland  in  the  period 
prior  to  the  establishment  of  the  Republican  Government  might  be 
summed  up  as  one  of  stagnation  somewhat.  We  were  a  people  who 
had  fallen  from  over  8,000,000  to  just  slightly  over  4,000,000,  and 
that  in  a  period  of  roughly  seventy  years.  Those  seventy  years  were 
years  of  peace,  comparative  peace  in  Europe.  In  those  seventy  years 
there  was  no  war,  as  we  understand  war  today,  in  Ireland.  What  I 
want  to  bring  out  is  that,  in  a  period  of  peace,  the  population  of  Ire- 
land fell  from  more  than  8,000,000  to  slightly  over  4,000,000.  We 
lost  in  that  seventy  years  as  many  people  as  we  have  in  Ireland  to- 
day. In  that  time  every  other  subject  nation  in  Europe  increased  in 
population.  The  general  condition  of  the  economic  life  of  the  coun- 
try was  this:  agriculture  was  our  main  industry,  yet  we  were  aban- 
doning tillage;  we  were  growing  less  and  less  foodstuffs  in  the 
country;  and  we  were  coming  to  rely  more  and  more  on  the  harvests 
of  foreign  nations.  Instead  of  producing  food  to  sustain  our  own 
people,  we  were  growing  grass  to  raise  live  stock.  Cattle  displaced 
human  beings.  Small  holdings  gave  way  before  large  grass  ranches. 
Where  a  hundred  families  found  a  means  of  sustenance,  they  were 
replaced  by  a  herd  and  a  dog. 

CATTLE-RAISING  IMPOVERISHES  IRELAND  FOR 
ENGLAND'S  ENRICHMENT 

That  industry  of  cattle-raising  was  an  uneconomic  one.  We  did 
not  finish  our  cattle  in  Ireland.  We  merely  produced  them  to  what 
is  known  as  the  store  stage.  We  shipped  in  round  numbers  a 
million  head  of  them  every  year  out  of  Ireland  in  that  unfinished 
state.  I  am  talking  of  cattle.  In  addition,  we  had  a  large  export 
of  sheep  and  hogs.  But  every  year  we  exported  about  a  million 
head  of  cattle  on  the  hoof  to  England.  Those  beasts  were  not  fat- 
tened in  Ireland.  They  were  brought  to  a  certain  stage,  and  then 
they  were  shipped.  They  took  with  them  the  richness  of  the  soil  of 
Ireland.  Only  in  the  fattening  stage  do  beasts  return  to  the  soil  the 
richness  which  they  consume  in  their  growing  state.  In  addition, 
they  look  with  them  valuable  raw  materials,  all  of  which,  if  retained 


937 

in  Ireland,  would  be  profitable  sources  of  employment  and  wealth 
for  the  Irish  people.  Every  beast  that  left  Ireland  on  the  hoof  was 
a  loss  to  Ireland.  That  will  be  understandable  when  I  say  that  the 
hide  of  the  beasts  is  very  valuable  as  the  raw  material  for  a  large 
leather  industry.  And  you  can  conceive  what  a  very  large  and 
profitable  leather  industry  we  would  have  in  Ireland  if  those  hides 
were  kept  in  Ireland.  In  addition,  we  lost  the  hoofs  and  horns. 
And  then  the  cattle  did  not  fetch  as  much  in  the  English  markets  as 
they  would  if  they  had  been  finished  and  slaughtered  in  Ireland  and 
their  meats  exported.  More  and  more  through  the  agricultural  pol- 
icy of  the  British  Government,  this  particular  traffic  in  unfinished 
cattle  was  fostered  and  increased.  The  Department  of  Agriculture 
under  the  British  Crown  in  Ireland  had  a  prize  scheme.  They 
brought  certain  breeding  animals  into  Ireland,  non-dairying  strains, 
and  they  offered  prizes  for  the  best  store  cattle  that  could  be  raised 
from  these,  and  in  that  way  they  fostered  this  particular  trade.  It 
suited  English  conditions,  and  that  was  why  this  particular  industry 
was  fostered  in  Ireland.  The  cattle  raisers  in  England  bought  the 
Irish  live  stock,  fattened  and  slaughtered  the  animals  in  the  course 
of  a  few  months,  and  put  the  meat  on  the  market  as  prime  English 
beef.  The  hides  and  hoofs  were  then  available  in  England  as  valu- 
able sources  of  employment  for  the  British  people. 

ABSENTEE   LANDLORD   SYSTEM   PROMOTED 
CATTLE-RAISING 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  interrupt,  Mr.  Consul,  to  ask 
how  such  an  uneconomic  condition  was  brought  about?  Were  your 
absentee  landlords  responsible,  or  was  it  the  British  Government? 
A.  The  absentee  landlords  were  in  a  sense  responsible,  inasmuch 
as  the  tenant  had  to  have  the  rent  for  the  landlord  on  the  gale  day, 
and  naturally  he  had  to  produce  something  that  would  give  him  a 
speedy  return. 

Q.  Were  there  any  cases  in  which  landlords  dispossessed  small 
farmers  in  order  to  have  their  lands  for  grass  production?  A. 
That  has  been  historically  demonstrated,  sir;  particularly  in  the 
midlands  of  Ireland,  where  the  large  holdings  were  made  into  grass 
ranches,  and  tillage  farms  were  broken  up. 

Q.  Was  there  a  change  in  the  landlord  policy  after  the  famine, 
say,  in  '46  or  '47?  A.  No,  sir.  The  landlord  as  a  class  was  not 
interested  in  what  was  produced.  He  was  merely  interested  in  get- 
ting his  rents.  And  those  rents,  revenues  from  Ireland,  were  sent 
across  to  England  or  wherever  the  landlord  happened  to  be.  They 
did  not  come  back  to  Ireland  again.  We  are  to  this  day  exporting 
our  revenue  in  another  form.       But  I  will  come  to  that  later. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Of  course  that  was  a  short-sighted  policy. 
The  tenant  put  his  own  labor  back  into  the  land.     A.     Yes,  but  his 


938 

position  was  this:  If  he  increased  the  value  of  his  holding,  his  rent 
was  increased.  And  the  more  wretched  his  holding  was,  the  less 
his  annual  rental  would  be. 

ENGLAND'S  DEMAND  FOR  CHEAP  MEAT  PREVENTS 
DEVELOPMENT  OF  TILLAGE  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  was  to  hinder  the  tenant,  if  he  wanted 
to,  to  raise  something  else  besides  cattle,  if  the  landlords  would  let 
him  do  it?  A.  There  was  this  also,  sir.  Under  free  trade  con- 
ditions were  different  in  Ireland  from  what  they  were  in  England. 
We  were  a  pastoral,  an  agricultural  people,  and  they  were  an 
industrial  people.  They  wanted  cheap  foods.  They  wanted  to 
draw  on  Ireland  and  on  this  country  and  other  countries  for  their 
food  supplies.  The  shipping  competition  across  the  ocean  and 
other  factors  brought  freight  rates  down  to  the  point  where  it  was 
not  financially  profitable  for  the  Irish  farmer  to  maintain  his  hold- 
ing in  tillage. 

Q.  Would  not  that  be  true  of  cattle?  A.  No,  sir.  England 
has  maintained  a  very  high  reputation  for  the  health  of  her  live 
stock,  and  Ireland  was  the  only  country  that  was  permitted  to  ship 
live  cattle  into  England. 

Q.  Well,  I  should  think  that  would  help  Ireland.  A.  Yes,  in  a 
certain  sense.  We  had  almost  a  monopoly  of  the  trade.  But  the 
cattle  industry  is  profitable  only  in  a  certain  stage  of  the  industry, 
and  our  economic  condition  did  not  allow  us  to  keep  them  that  long. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  prevented  you  from  keeping 
cattle  in  Ireland?  Did  you  not  have  the  food?  A.  Partly  that, 
and  partly  because  we  could  not  get  the  credit  to  enable  us  to  hold 
and  fatten  them  until  they  were  more  valuable. 

Q.  Did  they  have  food  for  them  in  England?  A.  Yes,  they 
imported  the  food. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Why  did  not  you  do  that  in  Ireland?  A. 
Perhaps  it  was  clue  to  lack  of  enterprise  on  our  part.  But  we  are 
dealing  with  a  condition  of  70  years  back. 

CHANGE  FROM  TILLAGE  TO  GRAZING  CUTS 
POPULATION 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  I  understand  that  there  is  a  close 
connection  between  your  loss  in  population  and  the  change  from  a 
tillage  to  a  grazing  country?  A.  There  is.  But  it  is  not  so  close 
a  connection  as  that  between  the  decrease  in  our  wealth  and  the  loss 
of  our  population. 

Q.  Is  it  fair  to  say  that  that  is  a  consequence  rather  than  a 
cause?  The  country  that  loses  so  much  of  its  population  as  did 
Ireland  must  be  very  weak  from  a  biological  standpoint.  A.  Yes, 
sir.     And  not  only  that,  but  we  were  living  in  Ireland  under  a  penal 


939 

code.     For  instance,  Catholics  were  debarred  in  Ireland  from  going 
into  industrial  pursuits. 

IRISH  RAILROADS  BUILT  FOR  STRATEGIC  PUR- 
POSES AND  NOT  TO  DEVELOP  COUNTRY 

Q.  Mr.  Consul,  I  take  it  that  the  period  of  which  we  are  speaking 
is  the  period  of  railroad  development  in  England.  Who  controlled 
the  railroads  in  Ireland,  and  where  did  the  capital  come  from?  A. 
The  railroads  in  Ireland,  if  you  will  look  at  that  map  before  you, 
were  laid  out  for  purely  strategic  purposes.  They  were  not  laid  out 
to  develop  the  country.  There  were  several  main  lines  laid  out 
from  Dublin  in  the  east,  to  Cork,  to  Gal  way,  and  to  Belfast  in  the 
north.  And  it  was  not  until  the  last  few  years  that  branch  or  link 
lines  have  been  laid  out. 

Q.  Were  these  railroads  controlled  by  the  English  Government? 
A.  The  directors  of  the  railroads  before  the  war  were  largely  Irish, 
and  the  stock  was  held  largely  in  Ireland.  But  since  and  during 
the  period  of  the  war,  the  English  Government  took  over  the  rail- 
roads, and  is  today  holding  them. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  But  you  say  the  capital  of  these  railroads 
was  largely  Irish?  A.  Yes,  it  was  and  is  held  largely  in  Ireland. 
But  the  Great  Northern  and  Great  Western  Railroads  are  tied  up 
very  largely  with  English  railroad  companies. 

THROUGH   RATE  SYSTEM   HAMPERS  IRISH 
DEVELOPMENT 

There  was  another  feature  that  militated  against  industrial  de- 
velopment in  Ireland,  and  that  was  what  was  known  as  through 
rates,  under  which  it  would  be  cheaper  to  send  goods  from  Cork 
to  London  or  Glasgow  than  it  would  be  to  send  goods  from  Cork 
to  Derry.   And  that  works  today  against  the  development  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  You  could  ship  goods  over  to  England,  then, 
cheaper  than  you  could  from  one  place  to  another  in  Ireland?  A. 
Yes.  I  am  talking  about  railroad  transportation,  sir.  It  would  be 
cheaper  to  send  goods  by  rail  and  sea  from  Cork  to  London  than  it 
would  be  to  ship  by  rail  from  Cork  to  Derry. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  were  shipping  goods  today  over  to  England, 
would  it  be  cheaper  to  ship  them  on  the  railroads  or  by  boat?  A. 
How  do  you  mean,  sir;  from  Cork  or  Dublin? 

Q.  Yes,  Cork  is  a  water  town.  A.  Well,  take  an  inland  town, 
say,  Athlone. 

Q.  Yes.  Now,  to  ship  it  from  Athlone  to  England  through 
Dublin?  A.  Yes,  sir.  It  would  be  cheaper  to  ship  goods  from 
Athlone  straight  through  Dublin  to  London  than  it  would  be  to 
forward  goods  from  Athlone  to  Dublin. 


940 

Senator  Norris:  That  is  what  I  am  getting  at. 
The  Witness:   That  is  the  situation.     You  have  some  such  situ- 
ation here  in  this  country,  I  understand. 

ENGLAND   MAINTAINS  WAR-TIME   RESTRICTIONS 
ON  IRISH  INDUSTRIES 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Was  there  any  repressive  legislation 
enacted  during  the  war?  A.  During  the  war  there  were  war-time 
measures  passed  by  the  English  Parliament  which  were  repressive 
to  Irish  industries.  Certain  of  these  laws  remain  in  force  to  this 
day.  For  instance,  it  is  not  permitted  to  ship  hides  out  of  Ireland 
now  except  by  special  license.  There  were  export  restrictions  on 
shipments  from  Ireland.  Ireland  had  not  a  free  market  for  her 
products,  and  control  was  maintained  on  selling  prices  and  ship- 
ments. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Who  does  that,  the  Food  Controller?  A. 
The  Food  Controller  of  the  English  Government. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Would  it  be  true  to  say  that  before 
the  war  the  hold  of  England  was  kept  on  Ireland  by  way  of  dis- 
criminatory legislation  against  certain  of  your  industries,  so  that  you 
could  not  obtain  the  capital  you  needed  to  develop  your  interests? 
A.  That  would  be  true,  sir;  but  it  would  be  more  true  to  say  that 
the  presence  of  a  foreign  government  and  the  absence  of  a  national 
government  really  interested  in  the  country  is  responsible  for  the 
lack  of  investment  of  capital  in  Ireland. 

ULSTER  NOT  WEALTHIEST  IRISH  PROVINCE 

Q.  The  reason  I  am  asking  these  questions  now,  Mr.  Consul,  is 
that,  you  will  remember,  the  Ulster  delegation  that  visited  this 
country  a  few  months  ago  said  that  the  decline  in  population  was 
not  because  of  the  Act  of  Union,  because  immediately  following 
the  Act  of  Union  the  population  increased.  It  was  due  to  the 
famine,  which  in  turn  was  due  to  the  failure  of  the  potato  crop; 
and  that,  of  course,  was  due  to  the  Irish  people,  and  not  the  British 
Government.  They  say  that  Ulster  is  the  wealthiest  province  in 
Ireland,  and  there  British  influence  is  strongest.  A.  That  is  the 
argument,  indeed.  But  it  is  not  true  to  say  that  Ulster  is  the  most 
prosperous  province  in  Ireland.  It  is  demonstrable  that  the  Prov- 
ince of  Ulster  is  far  less  wealthy  from  the  material  point  of  view 
than  is  the  Province  of  Leinster.  Ulster  has  lost  proportionately 
as  much  of  her  population  by  emigration  as  any  other  province  in 
Ireland.  It  is  not  true  to  say  that  all  the  wealth  of  Ireland  is 
cornered  up  in  the  northeast  of  Ireland.     Belfast — and  we  are  all 


941 

proud  of  Belfast — is  a  very  large  industrial  city  with  important 
industries,  such  as  shipyards,  rope  works,  linen  mills,  tobacco 
works.  But  if  we  will  take  any  one  of  these  industries  alone  and 
compare  it  with  the  industries  in  the  south  of  Ireland,  we  will  get 
a  better  comparative  idea  of  the  relative  values  of  these  industries 
than  if  we  consider  separately  the  industries  in  the  north  of  Ireland. 
Let  us  take  the  shipbuilding  industry.  Last  year  the  return  made 
to  the  shipyard  companies  from  the  industry  was  about  $60,000,000. 
Let  us  take  the  egg  and  poultry  industry  of  the  south.  That  brought 
into  Ireland  about  a  hundred  million  dollars.  Now,  let  us  take 
the  other  side  of  the  account.  Those  shipbuilders  in  Belfast  had  to 
import  all  their  steel  and  practically  everything  that  goes  into  the 
ship,  with  the  exception  of  the  labor  that  they  employ  in  the  yards. 
There  was  a  contra-account  to  that  $60,000,000  which  they  made. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  The  $60,000,000  was  gross,  then?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  Let  us  take  the  contra  side  of  the  poultry  industry  account. 
I  would  say  that  not  3  per  cent,  of  what  goes  into  feeding  the 
poultry  is  imported.  The  shipbuilding  industry  in  Ireland  is  an 
exotic  industry;  it  depends  on  foreign  nations  for  its  materials.  The 
poultry  industry  does  not  so  depend;  it  is  indigenous. 

LAND  ACTS  NOT  AN  ENGLISH  PHILANTHROPY 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  brings  us  to  another  LUster 
argument.  They  say  that  unjust  as  the  policy  of  the  British  Gov- 
ernment towards  Ireland  might  have  been  up  to  the  passing  of  the 
Land  Acts,  since  then  it  has  been  very  generous;  that  Ireland  owes 
her  prosperity  today, — take  the  poultry  industry,  for  example, — 
very  largely  to  the  fact  that  England  has  furnished  the  capital  very 
largely  to  develop  the  country,  and  that  it  is  therefore  very  ungrate- 
ful for  Ireland  not  to  appreciate  what  England  has  done  for  her. 
A.  On  that  land  question,  to  which  you  refer,  I  take  it,  as  the  rea- 
son for  our  indebtedness  to  England,  I  would  say  that  the  soil  of 
Ireland  belongs  of  right  to  the  Irish  people.  The  soil  of  Ireland 
was  alienated  from  the  Irish  people.  It  is  now  passing  back  to 
them. 

Q.  To  what  extent?  About  how  much,  roughly,  has  now  been 
acquired  by  the  Irish  people?  A.  I  would  say,  roughly,  about 
13,000,000  acres.  There  remain  about  6,000,000  acres.  So  that  all 
the  land  has  not  yet  passed  back  to  the  Irish  people.  England  has 
passed  certain  land  legislation  for  us.  But  England  herself  caused 
that  problem,  and  it  was  up  to  her  to  solve  it  for  us.  But  it  was 
not  solved  at  her  own  expense.  Such  money  as  she  advanced  under 
the  Land  Acts  for  the  purchase  by  tenants  of  their  holdings  is  money 
that  we  have  had  to  pay  back  ourselves,  and  to  pay  back  with  in- 
terest.    And  that  expenditure  of  hers,  which  some  of  her  propa- 


942 

gandists  mention,  that  expenditure  is  not  put  down  as  Imperial 
expenditure;  it  is  put  down  as  Irish  expenditure,  and  as  part  of  the 
budget  of  Ireland,  which  England  presents  for  Ireland  every  year 
to  the  British  Parliament.  That  money  is  being  paid  back  by  the 
Irish  farmers. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  If  an  individual  farmer  cannot  pay, 
who  makes  it  up, — does  the  local  Irish  committee  or  the  Exchequer? 
A.  If  the  individual  farmer  does  not  pay  his  annual  payment,  the 
county  at  large  has  to  pay  it.     The  county  rates  are  responsible,  sir. 

LAND  ACTS  SECURED  BY  THREATS  AND  FORCE 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  the  various  Land  Acts  came  as  the 
result  of  righteousness,  or  was  there  various  kinds  of  pressure  ex- 
erted,— land  riots?  A.  Well,  it  has  been  our  experience  in  Ireland 
that  we  have  got  very  little  for  Ireland  as  the  result  of  love;  that 
what  we  have  got  largely  followed  the  exercise  of  threats  and  force. 
The  Land  Acts  were  largely  the  result  of  agitation  by  the  Irish 
people  themselves. 

WORKMEN'S  COTTAGES  PAID  FOR  BY  IRISH 

Q.  Another  argument  I  remember  from  the  Ulster  delegation 
was  the  matter  of  workmen's  cottages  in  the  congested  districts. 
These,  too,  were  set  down  by  the  Ulster  delegation  as  one  of  the 
benefits  shown  Ireland  and  the  Irish  worker  by  the  British  Govern- 
ment. Can  you  explain  that?  A.  There,  too,  what  is  done  is  paid 
for  by  the  Irish  people.  It  is  put  down  by  the  British  Government 
under  the  head  of  Irish  expenditures.  The  occupiers  have  to  pay 
the  rentals  and  the  rates  to  the  councils. 

LAND  ACTS  DID  NOT  CUT  INTEREST  RATE 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  May  I  ask,  in  regard  to  these  moneys  and 
the  rates  of  interest  charged  upon  them, — as  I  remember,  in  the 
Land  Purchase  Acts  the  rate  of  interest  is  3^  per  cent.,  is  it  not? 
A.  There  are  five  or  six  Acts,  and  the  rates  differ  in  each  case. 
The  rate  on  the  last  was  3J-4  per  cent. 

Q.  At  that  time  was  3^4  per  cent,  interest  a  very  low  interest? 
A.     Not  at  that  time. 

Q.  Of  course,  according  to  the  argument  advanced  by  those 
gentlemen,  it  looks  like  a  very  great  gift  to  Ireland.  But  it  was  the 
usual  rate  at  that  time?     A.     It  was  the  current  rate,  sir. 


913 

UNIONISTS  WHO  LAUD  LAND  ACTS  OPPOSED 
THEM 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  The  Unionist  delegation,  to  whose 
pamphlets  I  am  referring, — did  they  favor  these  various  Acts,  or 
did  they  fight  them  while  the  fighting  was  good?  A.  To  the  bitter 
end. 

Q.  In  other  words,  am  I  to  understand  that  those  gentlemen 
opposed  these  Acts  as  long  as  they  could,  and  now  hold  them  up 
before  us  as  part  of  their  benefactions?  A.  The  Ulster  delegation 
are  as  carrion  crows.  They  have  fattened  off  Ireland  while  doing 
their  best  to  strangle  her. 

REVIVAL  OF  PROSPERITY  DUE  TO  INCREASED 
TILLAGE 

Q.  To  what  source  do  you  credit  the  revival  of  prosperity  that 
has  been  coming  to  Ireland  lately?  A.  From  a  life-long  study  of 
the  subject,  I  credit  it  to  Irish  industry.  I  mentioned  a  while  ago 
that  prior  to  the  war  we  were  living  under  a  free-trade  regime. 
Early  in  the  war  England  discovered  that  that  system  was  a  weak- 
ness in  her  armor.  She  discovered  that  even  with  her  immense 
navy  it  was  not  the  easy  matter  that  she  had  thought  it  would  be 
in  war-time  to  sustain  her  40,000,000  people  on  food  supplies  drawn 
from  distant  countries.  She  reversed  her  policy  and  offered  certain 
enhanced  prices  for  foodstuffs.  War  conditions  necessarily  brought 
about  increased  prices  for  foodstuffs.  But  she,  in  return  for  an 
extension  of  the  area  of  tillage,  guaranteed  to  pay  increased  prices 
for  food  stuffs  grown  at  home.  And  Irish  farmers  early  in  the  war 
started  to  break  up  grass  lands.  They  reverted  to  tillage.  They 
did  that  first  as  a  precautionary  measure  to  sustain  the  Irish  people 
themselves,  and  because  of  the  advice  they  were  receiving  from 
representative  bodies  in  Ireland.  And  the  result  was  that  during 
the  period  of  the  war  we  increased  our  area  under  tillage  close  upon 
1,000,000  acres,  which  is  something  more  than  any  other  country 
of  Europe  of  which  I  know  did  during  that  same  period.  Agricul- 
ture and  food  production  is  our  main  industry  in  Ireland.  When 
the  farmer  has  a  ready  and  profitable  market  for  his  food  products, 
every  other  industry,  every  other  endeavor  in  Ireland  participates 
in  the  prosperity  of  the  farmer.  I  will  give  you  an  instance.  At 
the  end  of  the  harvest,  when  the  farmer  sells  his  crops  he  pays  for 
the  seeds  and  the  implements  and  the  household  necessities  which 
he  bought  from  the  local  grocery  store  and  the  local  merchants 
during  the  preceding  months.  If  his  crops  fail  or  if  there  is  not 
a  market  for  them,  then  these  others  suffer  as  well  as  the  farmer. 
But  when  he  is  prosperous,  there  is  prosperity  throughout  the  whole 


944 

nation.  It  is  a  notable  fact  that  following  the  Land  Purchase  Acts 
those  tenants  who  had  bought  their  land, — and  more  especially 
during  the  war  period,  as  a  result  of  the  increased  demand  for  food- 
stuffs, the  farmers  have  gone  in  for  a  policy  of  increased  tillage, 
and  that  has  brought  them  increased  profits,  and  with  that  they  paid 
off  their  debts,  bought  new  machinery,  refurnished  their  homes,  and 
generally  raised  the  standard  of  living  and  comfort.  That  state  of 
affairs  did  not  obtain  prior  to  the  war.  It  is  now  more  or  less  the 
general  rule.  The  merchant  classes  in  Ireland  have  prospered  with 
the  farmer. 

A  STRUGGLE  BETWEEN  TWO  CIVILIZATIONS: 
CAPITALIST  TRUSTS  VERSUS  COOPERATIVES 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  What  part  has  the  cooperative  move- 
ment, to  which  you  have  referred,  played  in  this  development  of 
Irish  agricultural  interests?  A.  It  has  played  a  very  notable  part, 
sir.  Agricultural  cooperation  is  something  that  is  traditional  in 
Ireland.  Prior  to  the  coming  of  the  English  into  Ireland,  and  in 
the  early  days  of  our  history,  we  were  more  or  less  a  communal 
people.  The  English  came  along  and  endeavored  to  impose  their 
system  on  the  Irish  people.  The  battle  which  has  gone  on  through- 
out the  centuries  is  a  battle  of  one  civilization  against  another  form 
of  civilization.  And  the  battle  that  is  going  on  in  Ireland  today  is 
the  battle  of  one  civilization  against  another  civilization.  And  we 
are  gradually  reverting  back  to  our  national  standards  of  life.  And 
we  have  all  over  Ireland  today  some  four  thousand  cooperative 
societies, — cooperative  cheese  factories,  cooperative  creameries,  co- 
operative egg  societies,  cooperative  banks  and  stores,  and  so  on. 

I  have  remarked  that  the  fight  is  a  fight  between  two  civiliza- 
tions. We  are  today,  when  we  are  fighting  the  English  Government, 
fighting  the  English  capitalist  trust  system.  England  before  the 
war  and  during  the  war  had  become  a  country  of  trusts.  The 
Black-and-Tans  in  Ireland,  consciously  or  not,  are  doing  the  work 
of  the  trusts.  They  seem  to  have  premeditatedly  attacked  coopera- 
tive institutions  wherever  they  have  come  across  them.  I  will  put 
in  later,  sir,  as  an  exhibit,  a  list  of  42  creameries,  cooperative  con- 
cerns in  Ireland,  which  have  been  burned  down  by  the  Black-and- 
Tans.  Their  machinery  has  been  destroyed,  and  the  stocks  of  food 
in  them  have  also  been  destroyed.  Those  creameries  represent  an 
actual  loss  to  Ireland  of  about  $5,000,000.  Potentially  they  repre- 
sent a  loss  to  us  of  $100,000,000.  They  represent  a  loss  to  us  also 
of  employment  and  of  productive  wealth.  Those  creameries  were 
built  by  the  farmers  out  of  their  savings.  They  were  financed  by 
the  farmers  out  of  their  savings.  And  at  one  fell  stroke  all  that 
property  has  been  destroyed  by  the  agents  of  those  various  trusts, 


945 

because  the  British  Government  itself  is  but  the  agent  of  the  British 
trusts, — the  agent  of  the  capitalist  class  in  England. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  When  you  say  you  are  returning  to  the 
early  system  that  prevailed  in  Ireland,  you  mean  the  Brehon  laws? 
A.  Parti v  so.  From  the  earliest  time  the  Irish  people  lived  under 
these  laws;  lived  happily  and  prospered  under  them.  They  repre- 
sent a  whole  code  for  social  cooperation. 

Q.  Are  there  many  creameries  in  Ireland  owned  by  English 
concerns?  A.  There  were  at  one  time  a  number  of  them,  but  the 
farmers  have  acquired  them,  either  by  buying  them  out  or  by  erect- 
ing cooperative  creameries  in  competition  with  them. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  They  got  them  through  competition? 
A.  By  competition.  The  farmers  refused  to  supply  them  with  dairy 
products.     Thev  supplied  their  own  creameries  instead. 

IRELAND  EXPLOITED  FOR  IMPERIAL  TAXES 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  As  I  understand  your  argument,  Mr. 
Consul,  England  has  exploited  Ireland  and  retarded  her  develop- 
ment, first,  by  excessive  taxation ;  second,  by  control  of  financial 
institutions,  banks,  insurance  companies,  and  the  like,  which  control 
Ireland's  credit;  and  third,  either  by  discriminatory  legislation  or 
the  failure  to  develop  harbors  and  industries  and  those  things. 
Taking  up  those  points,  the  Ulster  delegation  charges  that  Ireland 
is  peculiarly  fortunate  in  regard  to  taxation ;  that  it  pays  very  much 
less  to  the  Empire,  even  in  proportion  to  population,  than  Scotland, 
for  instance;  that  further,  if  you  examine  what  Ireland  appears  to 
pay  to  the  Empire,  the  total  is  made  much  less  by  reason  of  bread 
doles  and  other  sums  that  come  back  to  be  spent  in  Ireland  itself. 
It  is  further  alleged, — I  forget  what  year  is  commonly  quoted, — 
that  the  amount  actually  spent  in  Ireland  was  greater  than  the 
amount  raised  by  Irish  revenue.  On  the  other  hand,  I  have  seen  a 
statement,  I  think  it  was  by  a  British  Commission,  that  since  the 
Act  of  Union  Ireland  has  been  overtaxed  by  some  hundreds  of  mil- 
lions of  pounds.  Could  you  give  us  the  facts  of  that  case  briefly? 
A.  Yes,  I  have  some  notes  here  to  which  I  will  refer.  We  have  no 
exact  data  on  British  taxation.  There  is  no  exact  data  available. 
Ireland  "contributes" — that  is  the  expression  used  in  the  English 
newspapers, — Ireland's  contributed  revenue  is  not  really  known,  and 
the  figures  which  the  British  Treasury  offices  publish  are  arrived  at 
by  a  system  of  guesswork.  Also,  when  you  are  dealing  with  this 
system  of  taxation,  one  has  to  remember  that  England  keeps  the 
books.  And  it  has  been  demonstrated  by  a  number  of  commissions 
and  a  number  of  inquiries  that  she  has  never  given  Ireland  the 
benefit  of  the  doubt,  and  that  she  has  always  erred  on  her  own  side. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  When  you  say  that  we  have  no  exact  figures 


946 

for  Ireland,  does  that  mean  that  the  British  Government  does  not 
keep  its  books  in  a  way  that  the  figures  are  available,  or  does  it 
refer  to  we  who  are  on  the  outside?  A.  No,  no.  It  refers  to  the 
situation  between  the  English  people  and  the  Irish  people.  England 
abolished  the  separate  customs,  and  because  the  separate  customs 
are  abolished,  it  is  not  possible  to  give  exact  data  as  to  what  Ireland 
contributes  to  England.  The  contributed  revenue  is  largely,  then, 
what  the  Treasury  estimates  show  it  to  be;  but  the  exact  amount  is 
not  known.  The  revenue  collected  in  Ireland  can  be  accurately 
known.  The  Financial  Relations  Commission  appointed  in  1894 
found  that  Ireland  was  paying  one-eleventh  of  the  revenues  of  the 
United  Kingdom.  Ireland's  taxable  capacity  at  that  time  was  esti- 
mated at  one-twentieth.  Her  "contributed"  revenue  then  of 
£6,643,719  was  found  to  be  excessive  by  two  and  three-quarter 
million  pounds  annually. 

NEITHER  SOUND  FINANCE  NOR  ECONOMICAL 
GOVERNMENT  IN  IRELAND 

Now,  as  far  as  the  actual  system  of  taxation  is  concerned,  there 
is  neither  sound  finance  nor  economical  government  in  Ireland. 
The  most  important  feature  in  the  financial  arrangement  in  Ireland 
is  the  continual  drift  upwards  in  public  expenditure.  The  gross 
income  in  Ireland,  assessed  by  the  Income  Tax  Commissioners,  in 
1908-1909  was  only  £39,737,023.  The  expense  of  government  at 
that  time  was  equal  to  40  per  cent,  of  the  assessed  income.  Another 
fact  to  keep  in  mind  is  that  expenditure  in  Ireland  is  not  the  same 
thing  as  Irish  expenditure.     I  can  illustrate  that  point  later. 

To  be  historically  accurate,  it  is  well  to  bear  in  mind  that  before 
the  Act  of  Union  no  English  act  of  Parliament  had  ever  compelled 
the  Irish  people  to  pay  a  tax,  and  England  had  never  used  its  legis- 
lative power  to  compel  Ireland  to  provide  any  contribution  to  im- 
perial expenditure.  England  is  today  taxing  Ireland,  and  England 
is  today  compelling  Ireland  to  contribute  to  imperial  expenditure. 
And  in  connection  with  that  question  of  imperial  expenditure  and 
Ireland's  contribution  thereto,  it  is  well  to  bear  in  mind  that  no 
English  colony  contributes  to  imperial  expenditure.  They  are  very 
wise.  They  know  that  to  export  their  revenue  means  to  export  their 
people.  We  have  been  exporting  our  revenue,  and  we  have  been 
exporting  our  people.  Neither  Canada  nor  Australia  nor  South 
Africa  contributes  to  the  imperial  support  at  the  present  time. 

BRITAIN  EXTRACTING  WAR  COST  FROM  IRELAND 

I  suppose  you  have  figures  on  Ireland's  current  payments  to  the 
British  Treasury. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  Perhaps  you  can  give  them  to  us  anyway. 


94? 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  1  would  like  to  verify  them,  Mr.  Con- 
sul.  The  figure  we  have  is  £41,000,000  for  1920.    A.    Yes,  for  1920. 

Q.  And  the  expenditure  in  Ireland  is  how  much?  Have  you  it 
there?  A.  I  have  the  1918  and  1919  figures.  We  have  not  got  the 
figures  for  1920. 

Q.  I  wonder  if  you  could  read  that  into  the  record?  A.  This 
is  taken  from  the  British  White  Paper  on  Revenue  and  Expenditure 
for  the  financial  year  ending  March  31,  1919,  and  includes  the  1918 
figures  for  comparative  purposes.  This  is  the  revenue  of  Ireland 
as  alleged  to  be  contributed: 

1918  1919 

Customs    £6,670,000  increased  to  £9,744,000 

Excise   2,995,000  increased  to     4,825,000 

Estate  duties  1,181,000  increased  to     1,238,000 

Stamps    439,000  increased  to       619,000 

Income  tax    7,079,000  increased  to    8,808,000 

Excess  profits  6,822,000  increased  to  10,040,000 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  But  there  was  a  general  rise  in  war- 
time taxation,  wasn't  there?  A.  Yes,  I  will  give  you  the  interpreta- 
tion afterwards.  Land  values,  the  one  solitary  item  of  the  lot,  fell 
from  £5,000  to  £4,000.  The  total  of  those  taxes  alleged  to  be  con- 
tributed went  from  £25,191,000  in  1918  to  £35,278,000  in  1919. 
Then,  in  addition  to  those  taxes,  there  was  the  postal,  telegraph, 
and  miscellaneous  items.  We  get  some  value  from  those,  however. 
The  total  as  alleged  to  be  contributed  from  all  of  those  sources, 
together  with  the  "contributions"  that  I  have  already  stated,  in  the 
year  1919  amounted  to  £37,275,000,  and  in  1918  to  £26,865,000. 
There  is,  therefore,  an  increase  of  over  £10,000,000,  or  nearly 
$50,000,000, — a  huge  increase, — in  Irish  revenue  in  one  year.  This 
goes  to  show  that  England  has  considerably  enlarged  the  war  in- 
demnity which  she  is  extracting  out  of  Ireland.  Now,  as  regards 
the  larger  revenue,  as  to  how  it  is  raised  and  as  to  how  it  is  divided 
up,  perhaps  I  can  put  those  figures  in. 

ENGLAND'S    EXTRAVAGANT    AND    UNJUST 
CHARGES  UPON  IRELAND 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  That  will  be  sufficient  as  to  that.  In  a 
general  way,  what  is  it  spent  for?  A.  Perhaps  the  expenditure 
will  help  us  to  arrive  at  that.  England's  Irish  expenditure, — that 
is,  what  the  English  Treasury  alleges  it  spent  in  certain  services. 
The  money  is  not  necessarily  expended  in  Ireland,  as  I  will  explain. 
The  services  were  as  follows:  The  Civil  List  went  from  £135,000 
in  1918  to  £139,500  in  1919.  Payments  to  Local  Taxation  Accounts 
fell  from  £1,475,000  to  £1,468,500.  The  amount  spent  on  votes 
of  credit  passed  in  the  British  House  of  Commons  increased  from 
£9,392,000  to  £9,704,000.     Customs,  excises,  and   Inland  Revenue 


948 

increased  from  £317,000  in  1918  to  £329,000  in  1919.  The  Post 
Office  expenditure  increased  from  £1,683,000  in  1918  to  £1,896,000 
in  1919. 

The  total  Irish  Expenditure  under  the  heading  of  Irish  Services 
was  £22,161,500  in  1919,  as  against  £13,002,000  in  1918,  showing 
an  increased  expenditure  in  the  period  of  nine  millions.  The  total 
revenue  as  contributed  by  Ireland  as  shown  in  the  same  paper  by 
the  English  Treasury  is  £37,275,000,  so  that  they  levied  £37,000,000 
to  pay  £22,000,000,  and  they  have  a  profit  of  £15,000,000. 

Now,  as  to  the  Civil  List,— that  is  the  information  you  required. 
In  1919  the  votes  were: 

Pensions  for  Judicial  Services £22,000 

Inspectors  of  Anatomy 500 

Copyright   Compensations   500 

Lord  Lieutenant  of   Ireland 20,000 

Courts  of  Justice,   Salaries 96,000 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Is  that  for  salaries  in  Ireland  alone? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  without  perquisites.  There  was  in  the  Civil  List  an 
increase  of  only  £4,000  in  the  period  1918  and  1919.  There  was 
an  increase  of  £4,000  for  Judicial  Services.  Apparently  these  are 
the  salaries  of  the  judges  on  the  Consolidated  Funds.  Lord  French, 
be  it  noted,  is  charged  as  an  "Irish  Service."  They  do  not  charge 
the  Governor-General  of  Canada  or  of  Australia  or  of  South  Africa 
as  a  Canadian  or  Australian  or  African  expenditure.  Such  officer 
is  charged  as  an  imperial  expenditure.  In  Ireland  we  have  to  act 
as  host  to  Lord  French,  and  we  are  taxed  to  maintain  him  and  his 
suite. 

Again,  in  1919,  under  the  Land  Purchase  Acts  £40,000  is  paid  to 
Local  Taxation  Accounts,  which  we  pay  back  with  interest.  Then 
there  was  an  Agricultural  Grant  of  £728,000;  in  lieu  of  local  grants, 
£79,000;  licenses,  £212,000;  cost  of  collection  of  motor-car  licenses, 
£1,000;  beer  and  spirit  duties,  £124,500;  and  in  relief  of  rates 
generally,  £284,000.  These  grants  are  made  for  land  purchase, 
relief  of  rates,  and  for  educational  purposes.  In  spite  of  the  enor- 
mous increase  in  taxation,  the  amount  available  to  relieve  the  rates 
has  fallen  down  £7,000  a  year,  and  the  English  Treasury  appears 
to  have  effected  the  only  known  savings  at  the  expense  of  the  Irish 
rates. 

IRELAND    TAXED    FOR   ENGLISH    PUBLIC 
BUILDINGS 

Now,  there  is  this  item  of  "Voted,"  £9,704,000.  This  vote  now 
includes  upkeep  for  the  English  Royal  Palaces,  the  public  build- 
ings, the  Houses  of  Parliament,  the  diplomatic  and  consular  build- 
ings, one-fourth  of  the  public  buildings  of  Great  Britain.     All  these 


949 

are  put  down  in  the  Imperial  account  under  the  heading  of  "Gen- 
eral." In  other  words,  this  expenditure,  amounting  lo  approxi- 
mately £700,000,  is  not  charged  to  England,  although  nearly  all 
of  it  is  spent  in  England,  under  the  control  and  supervision  of 
England,  and  for  the  benefit  of  England.  "General  Expenditure" 
is  merely  a  term  for  English  expenditure  partly  loaded  on  Ireland. 
We  in  Ireland  are  charged  for  the  upkeep  of  Westminster,  the 
diplomatic  and  consular  buildings,  and  other  buildings  occupied 
by  men  who  certainly  do  not  work  abroad  in  our  interests.  Public 
Buildings  in  Great  Britain  involved  a  vote  of  £695,000,  and  England 
contributed  only  £532,000  of  this.  This  is  pure  nonsense,  because 
no  public  building  in  Great  Britain  can  represent  anything  else  but 
an  English  expenditure.  England  erects  these  buildings  and  staffs 
them,  and  she  has  no  more  right  to  expect  us  to  pay  for  them  than 
she  has  a  right  to  annex  our  country. 

Another  point  in  connection  with  that  vote  is  the  item  of  £781,500. 
This  is  for  the  salaries  of  the  Civil  Departments  and  the  expenses 
of  the  English  Houses  of  Parliament.  According  to  the  person  who 
compiled  this  return,  the  expenditure  of  the  House  of  Lords  Offices 
and  the  House  of  Commons  is  not  an  English  expenditure!  We 
have  to  pay  our  share  of  it.  Irish  rates  and  Irish  taxation  have  to 
go  to  maintain  the  House  of  Commons  and  the  House  of  Lords  and 
the  staffs  of  those  places  in  England. 

The  following  items,  too,  represent  "Expenditures  on  Ireland": 
The  Lord  Lieutenant's  household,  £3,000;  the  Chief  Secretary  for 
Ireland,  £25,500.  This  is  for  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  of  Black-and- 
Tan  fame. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  does  he  get  that  for?  A.  Salary 
and  his  staff's  services,  and  so  forth, — for  his  official  household. 

Q.     Senator  Norris:  Annually?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Commissioner  Howe:  Quite  a  good  job!    A.   Yes,  financially. 

The  Department  of  Agriculture  gets £167,000 

Charitable  Donations  2,000 

Congested  Districts   Board 170,000 

Local    Government   Board 131,500 

The  Public  Record  Office 7,000 

Public  Works  Office 37,000 

The  Registrar-General's  Office 14,000 

Valuation   30,000 

The  total  expenditure  under  these  heads  is £586,000 

Now,  the  corresponding  expenditure  in  Scotland  is  only  £227,500. 
It  is  noteworthy  that  the  expense  of  the  Chief  Secretary  is  charged 
to  Ireland,  like  the  expense  of  the  Lord  Lieutenant,  and  neither  of 
them  is  considered  an  imperial  expense,  as  similar  imperial  officers 
are  for  British  colonies  abroad.  They  are  put  down  as  Irish  ex- 
penditure, that  Ireland  must  contribute  to  England. 


950 

COST  OF  "LAW  AND  POLICE"  FOR  IRELAND 

£3,040,500  was  also  put  down  under  "General  Expenditure"  to 
cover  "Law  and  Police," — "Law  and  Police"  for  Ireland!  There 
is  the  sum  of  £2,804,500  for  "Law  and  Police"  in  England; 
£502,500  for  Scotland;  £3,040,500  for  Ireland,  and  General  Ex- 
penditure, £202,000.  It  appears  that  the  administration  of  justice 
and  the  maintenance  of  law  and  order  is  more  expensive  in  Ireland 
than  in  England,  with  ten  times  our  population;  while  Scottish  "law 
and  order"  costs  only  one-sixth.  And  yet  we  are  told  and  it  is 
blazoned  all  over  the  world  that  there  is  neither  law  nor  order  in 
Ireland!  And  we  are  taxed  this  £3,040,500  a  year  for  the  mainte- 
nance of  "law  and  order"  in  our  country!  The  maintenance  of  the 
army  and  navy  is  not  included  in  that. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  It  does  not  include  the  white  kid  gloves 
they  get?     A.     No,  it  does  not. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  It  does  include  the  police?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
it  does. 

Q.  Where  do  you  put  the  Black-and-Tans?  A.  They  were  not 
in  existence  then. 

Mr.  Manly:  You  have  not  had  the  bill  for  that  yet, — it  will  come 
later. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  May  I  ask,  Mr.  Consul -General,  with  regard 
to  the  grants  that  are  said  to  be  withheld  from  certain  local  boards 
in  Ireland:  those  grants  you  refer  to  are  simply  proposed  to  be 
paid.  They  have  not  been  paid  for  this  year.  It  is  those  grants 
that  are  being  withheld  now,  is  it  not?     A.     That  is  right,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  gave  figures  a  while  ago  show- 
ing that  Ireland  was  paying  one-eleventh  of  the  taxation  when  one- 
twentieth  would  be  her  right  proportion.     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  anyone  made  out  a  similar  statement  for  the  figures  you 
have  given?  What  proportion  of  these  figures  you  have  just  sub- 
mitted should  Ireland  pay?  A.  I  have  given  no  study  to  that,  and 
I  don't  know  of  anyone  who  has  gone  into  it.  But  this  much  I  can 
say:  the  Irish  Republican  Government  could  administer  the  affairs 
of  Ireland  within  present  revenues  and  immediately  return  from 
twenty  to  thirty  millions  of  the  taxation  that  England  is  levying  on 
Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Including  everything, — military  de- 
fense and  everything?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

TWO  DISTINCT  GRIEVANCES 

Q.  Mr.  Consul-General,  am  I  right  in  stating  that  there  are  two 
grievances  here?  First,  the  grievance  that  an  honest  Unionist  might 
present,  that  the  government  of  Ireland  is  extravagant  and  that  the 
proportion  paid  by  Ireland  is  too  great.     That  is  one  grievance  that 


951 

a  Unionist  and  a  Nationalist  would  admit.  But  there  is  a  second 
grievance  that  I  take  it  the  Republicans  assert.  I  take  it  that  you 
object  to  paying  anything  for  imperial  expenditure  when  you  are 
not  interested  in  being  a  part  of  the  Empire.  If  I  may  refer  again 
to  the  Ulster  delegation.  I  have  in  mind  the  oft-repeated  statement 
made  by  them  and  others  that  Scotland  never  murmurs,  and  why 
then  should  Ireland.  Is  it  a  legitimate  answer  that  Scotland  is 
content  to  be  part  of  the  Empire  and  Ireland  is  not?  A.  Well, 
so  far  as  we  are  concerned,  we  are  not  content  to  be  a  part  of  the 
Empire  and  we  never  have  accepted  a  position  as  part  of  the  Empire. 
Q.  In  other  words,  if  Scotland  paid  the  same  proportion  as  you 
do  for  being  a  part  of  the  Empire,  that  would  not  remove  your 
grievance?     A.    No,  sir,  it  would  not. 

EDUCATION  OR  POLICE 

There  is  another  matter  I  want  to  bring  out.  The  maintenance 
of  the  judiciary  and  police  cost  over  £3,000,000  in  1919.  The  vote 
for  education  in  the  same  year  was  only  £2,558,000,  and  £2,555,000 
for  1918.  In  that  one  year  of  1919  the  estimate  for  Irish  education 
was  increased  by  the  noble  sum  of  £3,000  over  the  previous  year, 
and  that  in  a  war  period  when  the  cost  of  living  and  other  expenses 
demanded  that  the  teachers  should  be  better  paid,  and  when  the 
upkeep  of  schools  would  cost  more  than  in  the  preceding  year.  The 
other  reflection  that  I  have  to  make  is  that  here  England  was  willing 
to  spend  over  three  million  pounds  of  our  money  on  police;  yet  she 
actually  passed  only  two  and  a  half  millions  for  the  vote  on 
education ! 

"GOVERNMENT  HOSPITALITY"  AND  OTHER  COSTS 

Now,  there  is  an  item  called  the  Development  Grant  which 
amounts  to  £387,000  in  1919  as  against  £316,000  in  1918.  This 
vote  includes  "Ireland  Development  Grant,"  £305,000.  I  want  to 
remark  on  that  that  there  is  no  such  grant  for  development  in  Ire- 
land. It  has  gone  some  place  else,  or  has  been  purloined  to  pay 
deficits  on  the  issue  of  land  loans.  There  is  an  item  of  £85,000  to 
pay  for  "Government  Hospitality."  This  is  a  "dry"  country,  so  I 
will  not  make  any  reflection  on  that  expenditure.  The  cost  of  the 
new  electoral  act  represented  something  like  £65,000.  I  think  that 
was  the  only  genuine  item  in  the  whole  list  that  we  got  any  value 
for, — that  was  the  Proporitonal  Representation  Act.  It  cost,  out- 
side of  local  expenses,  £65,000  to  bring  that  Act  through  the  Eng- 
lish Parliament  and  to  administer  it  in  Ireland. 

Old  Age  Pensions  were  £2,307,500  in  1918,  and  had  fallen  in 
1919  to  £2,240,500,  or  a  decrease  of  £67,000.     The  old  people  are 


952 

passing  away,  and  the  young  men  are  growing 
is  becoming  younger. 

The  Customs  and  Excise  cost  was  £228,000  in  1918  and  £230,000 
in  1919.  And  the  Inland  Revenue  vote  was  £89,000  in  1918  and 
£99,000  for  1919.  The  cost  of  collecting  the  Irish  revenue  is  less 
than  one  per  cent. 

The  Post  Office  Services  vote  in  1918  was  £1,683,000,  as  against 
£1,896,000  in  1919.  The  revenue  of  the  post  office  in  Ireland  is 
£1,869,000.  It  nearly  balances.  They  voted  £27,000  more  than 
the  actual  revenue  from  the  post  office  amounted  to.  There  is  a 
slight  deficit,  but  we  have  no  objection  to  taking  over  and  admin- 
istering the  Post  Office  Services  in  Ireland. 

Then  there  are  the  votes  of  credit.  There  was  no  such  allocation 
in  1918.  In  1919  there  was  £8,624,500  allocated  for  this  purpose. 
There  is  no  explanation  of  what  the  votes  of  credit  stand  for. 

That  is  the  statement  taken  from  the  White  Paper  issued  by  the 
British  Government  on  Taxation. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  What  date,  sir?  A.  It  is  for  the  financial 
years  ending  March  31,  1918,  and  March  31,  1919. 

SOCIAL   LEGISLATION    NOT   MENACED    BY 
REPUBLIC 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  I  have  heard  it  stated  on  a  public 
platform  that  one  of  the  difficulties  about  letting  the  Irish  be  inde- 
pendent is  that  the  agricultural  south  and  west  would  never  stand 
for  the  social  legislation  which  the  workers  of  Belfast  would  want, 
and  which  they  now  enjoy  under  British  Acts,  and  that  therefore 
there  is  a  very  genuine  cleavage  in  interest  along  that  line, — not 
merely  a  sentimental  one  but  a  practical  one.  Is  there  reason  to 
believe  that  that  is  the  case?  A.  I  certainly,  sir,  have  no  reason 
to  suspect  that  the  Irish  agriculturist  is  a  less  progressive  citizen 
than  the  Belfast  shipyard  worker.  And  I  don't  know  of  any  social 
legislation  enacted  for  the  benefit  and  protection  of  Belfast  workers 
by  the  British  Government  that  could  not  be  improved  upon  by  the 
Irish  Republican  Government. 

Q.  The  speaker  referred  to  old  age  pensions  and  unemployment 
grants.  A.  We  could,  sir,  from  our  present  revenue  paid  to  Eng- 
land, not  only  pay  the  old  age  pensions,  but  we  could  pay  a  pension 
to  every  mother  in  the  country. 

ULSTER  LAGS  BEHIND  OTHER  PROVINCES  IN 
PREVENTION  OF  TUBERCULOSIS 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  Consul,  have  you  the  figures  for  tubercu- 
losis  and   relief  measures   for   the   different   counties   in    Ireland? 


953  ' 

Those  figures,  I  believe,  were  collected  in  the  document  presented 
on  behalf  of  the  recognition  of  the  Irish  Republic.  Those  figures 
are  very  interesting  on  this  point.  They  show  that  the  contributions 
in  Minister  and  Leinster  are  larger  than  for  Ulster.  A.  Yes,  sir: 
I  have  those  figures  here. 

Mr.  Manly:  They  are  contained  in  one  of  the  appendices  of  that 
document.  I  think  they  are  very  much  in  point  at  this  time.  I 
believe  they  are  under  the  heading  of  The  Ulster  Question. 

The  Witness  (reading  from  document):  Money  paid  for  treat- 
ment and  prevention  of  tuberculosis,  per  1,000  of  population: 
Leinster,  $11.50;   Minister,  $23.90:   Connaught,  $12;   Ulster,  $7. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Does  that  mean  that  there  is  less 
tuberculosis  in  Ulster?  A.  I  am  sorry  to  say,  sir,  that  there  is 
not.  The  deaths  from  tuberculosis  in  1913  were:  Leinster,  2,932; 
Munster.  2,195;  Connaught,  913;  Ulster,  3,347.  There  were  fewest 
deaths  in  Connaught,  which  is  supposed  to  be  the  poorest  province 
in  Ireland.  Ulster,  rich,  wealthy,  progressive,  prosperous  Ulster, — 
it  has  the  highest  death  rate  from  tuberculosis,  and  it  pays  the  least 
for  preventive  measures  to  prevent  tuberculosis. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Are  those  numbers  of  deaths,  or  death  rates? 
A.     Numbers  of  deaths. 

Q.  Then  in  order  to  be  accurately  comparative,  we  should  have 
the  population.     A.     Well.  I  can  give  you  the  population. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  Nevertheless,  those  figures  give  you  an 
idea  of  how  much  they  spent  for  it. 

Senator  Norris:  The  figures  show  the  per  capita  rate.  I  cannot 
see  how  the  population  would  change  that  or  help  it  any. 

Major  Newman:  I  was  speaking  of  the  number  of  deaths. 

LAND  PAYMENTS  AND  OLD  AGE  PENSIONS 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Mr.  Consul -General,  are  the  annui- 
ties for  the  land  being  paid  now?  Are  the  payments  for  the  land 
being  kept  up  under  the  Land  Purchase  Acts  where  the  term  is  still 
running?  A.  I  presume  so.  I  have  been  here  in  this  country  for 
the  past  twelve  or  fourteen  months.  I  am  not  as  conversant  with 
conditions  at  home  as  I  was,  but  the  county  councils  are  responsible 
for  the  payment  of  those  annuities. 

Q.  And  you  have  never  heard  that  they  have  ceased?  A.  I 
have  not,  sir. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  You  were  talking  about  the  old-age 
pension.  What  is  the  amount  of  the  benefits  received?  A.  When 
I  was  in  Ireland,  sir,  it  was  seven-and-six-pence  per  week  for  every 
person  of  70  years  and  upwards — about  nineteen  pounds  ten  shill- 
ings per  year. 

Q.     A  little  less  than  $2  a  week?     A.    Yes,  sir. 


954 


ADMINISTRATON   OF    LOCAL  TAXATION   PROVES 
IRELAND  SELF-SUPPORTING 

You  asked  me  a  little  while  ago  about  local  taxation.  It  might 
be  interesting  to  you  to  know  about  the  sums  of  money  that  pass 
through  our  hands.     This  also  is  from  an  official  paper. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  These  are  collections  of  the  Irish  Re- 
public? A.  No,  sir;  these  are  the  returns  for  local  taxation  in 
Ireland  for  1917-1918,  from  the  official  reports  of  the  local  bodies. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  are  these  taxes  levied?  A.  This 
taxation  is  levied,  collected,  and  administered  by  the  local  bodies 
in  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Are  the  local  councils  collecting  those 
rates  at  the  present  time?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  receipts  for  the  pur- 
poses of  local  government  in  Ireland  during  the  financial  year  1917- 
1918,  excluding  loans  and  grants  provided  by  statute  and  other 
grants  from  Government  sources,  and  making  the  necessary  deduc- 
tions for  duplicate  entries  in  the  local  accounts  from  which  the 
returns  have  been  prepared,  amounted  to  £6,835,450. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  This  is  for  the  whole  of  Ireland?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  This  was  an  increase  of  £279,083  as  compared  with  the 
preceding  year,  and  an  increase  of  £1,450,206  as  compared  with  the 
year  1907-1908,  which  is  equivalent  to  33.1  per  cent,  of  an  increase 
for  the  decade.  Of  this  amount,  75  per  cent,  was  raised  directly 
by  rates  assessed  on  lands,  buildings,  and  so  forth;  9  per  cent,  was 
derived  from  tolls,  fees,  stamps,  and  dues;  7  per  cent,  came  from 
rents  of  property  in  lands,  houses,  etc.,  while  the  remaining  9  per 
cent,  was  made  up  of  various  miscellaneous  items  of  local  income 
classed  as  other  receipts,  these  proportions  being  practically  iden- 
tical from  year  to  year.  This  table  gives  the  amount  received  from 
each  of  these  sources:  £4,356,551  as  rates;  £539,561  as  tolls,  etc.; 
£384,435  as  rents;  and  £554,903  as  other  receipts.  And  it  may  be 
observed  that,  compared  with  the  preceding  year,  there  was  an 
increase  in  rates  of  £220,538;  in  rents  of  £33,370;  and  in  other 
receipts  of  £31,888;  while  there  was  a  decrease  of  £6,713  in  tolls, 
etc.  The  chief  increase  was  in  the  poor  rate,  £314,866;  while  the 
increase  in  other  rates  was  £719.  But  there  was  a  decrease  of 
£95,047  in  municipal  rates.  The  net  increase  under  these  heads 
amounted,  therefore,  to  £220,538.  And  it  may  be  seen  that  with 
the  exception  of  the  year  1911-1912,  there  were  increases  under  the 
head  of  rates  year  after  year  for  a  long  period.  The  rents  derived 
from  property,  however,  continue  to  increase.  But  this  fact  is 
mainly  attributable  to  the  great  improvement  made  in  connection 
with  the  housing  of  the  working  classes  in  urban  and  rural  dis- 
tricts. The  increase  in  the  receipts  from  tolls,  etc.,  does  not  call 
for  any  special  notice. 

The  total  of  the  four  branches  of  local  revenue,  the  sum  first 


955 

mentioned  above,  is  regarded  as  the  amount  of  the  local  taxation 
for  the  year;  but  it  is  to  be  noted  that,  unlike  rates,  the  taxes  known 
as  toils,  fees,  stamps,  and  dues  are  restricted  in  range  of  operation, 
and  to  a  great  extent  represent  payment  for  value  received;  while 
the  income  arising  from  rents  and  from  other  receipts  is  not  the 
produce  of  any  tax  or  rate,  but  is  dealt  with  as  such  in  its  applica- 
tion to  expenditure.  Moreover,  with  regard  to  "other  receipts," 
there  are  included  under  this  head  the  profits  of  certain  reproduc- 
tive undertakings  in  the  hands  of  some  of  the  local  bodies,  repre- 
senting 3.3  per  cent,  of  the  total  net  revenue  of  the  year.  The 
amount  produced  by  rates,  in  which  is  included  about  £118,246 
raised  in  respect  of  water  supplied  for  domestic  and  other  private 
purposes  (2.7  per  cent,  of  the  whole  amount  so  produced),  repre- 
sents an  average  of  5s.  4%d.  in  the  pound  on  the  rateable  valuation 
of  Ireland  at  the  beginning  of  the  year,  and  an  average  of  £l:0s:ld. 
per  head  of  the  population — 4,300,000 — as  estimated  at  the  middle 
of  the  vear.  A  net  sum  of  £4,857,243  obtained  from  local  sources, 
including  rates  to  the  amount  of  £4,289,377,  was  applied  towards 
the  expenditure  of  counties  and  towns  during  the  year.  Thus,  the 
public  bodies  raise  and  spend  over  £4,000,000  annually  in  admin- 
istering the  affairs  of  the  counties. 

Now,  this  was  supplemented  by  payments  made  from  the  Local 
Taxation  for  Ireland  Account  to  the  extent  of  £1,317,646.  These 
are  the  grants  which  are  now  withdrawn.  And  there  were  further 
grants  from  the  Imperial  Exchequer  and  other  government  sources 
amounting  to  £148,006,  so  that  of  the  total  net  revenue  of  county 
and  town  authorities.  77  per  cent,  came  from  local  sources,  and  23 
per  cent,  from  grants.  On  an  average  the  grants  were  equivalent 
to  Is.  9)4d.  per  pound  of  rateable  value,  and  to  6s.  9d.  per  head 
of  estimated  population  as  given  above.  The  agricultural  grant 
paid  to  the  county  councils  amounted  to  £727,337,  and  is  equal  to 
nearly  18  per  cent,  of  their  whole  revenue  for  the  year.  That  gives 
you  some  idea  of  the  problem  which  the  Republican  administration 
of  local  affairs  has  to  meet  in  Ireland  for  the  moment. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  is,  however,  not  a  problem  that 
you  would  face  if  the  British  forces  were  withdrawn  and  you  col- 
lected all  of  your  own  revenue.     A.     Not  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  raise  it  either  by  an  increase  in  the  local  rates  or 
by  national  taxation.  A.  Yes,  we  had  arranged,  by  the  vote  of  the 
Dail,  to  increase  the  income  tax.  The  figures  here  are  somewhat 
mysterious  to  one  who  does  not  know  the  conditions  of  the  cities  in 
Ireland.  Let  us  take  the  city's  income,  for  instance.  The' valuation 
is  put  on  the  rental  which  the  building  would  bring  in, — not  on  the 
machinery  and  the  stock  in  that  house,  but  merely  on  the  rental 
which  it  would  bring  in  to  the  landlord.  In  England  I  understand 
that  the  assessment  is  on  the  machinery  and  stock. 


956 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Mr.  Fawsitt,  in  that  connection,  are  these 
cooperative  industries  taxed?  A.  They  (in  common  with  coopera- 
tive societies  in  Great  Britain )  have  been  free  from  payment  of 
income  tax  under  statute  of  the  British  Parliament. 

Q.  But  they  are  not  free  from  local  taxation?  A.  No,  they 
are  not. 

LOCAL    EXPENDITURES    AND    INDEBTEDNESS 

The  net  expenditure  from  revenue  during  the  year  amounted  to 
£8,947,366;  or,  excluding  electric  lighting,  gas,  and  tramway  under- 
takings in  the  hands  of  municipal  authorities,  it  was  £7,618,479,  of 
which  a  sum  of  £1,312,630,  or  17.2  per  cent.,  was  applied  to  the 
discharge  of  borrowed  moneys  and  the  payment  of  interest  and 
dividends  on  such  moneys.  Besides,  additional  expenditures 
amounting  to  £237,904  were  defrayed  from  loans  and  stock,  of 
which  £109,777  was  incurred  in  connection  with  schemes  for  the 
housing  of  the  working  classes  in  towns  and  for  providing  laborers' 
cottages  in  rural  districts;  while  sums  amounting  to  £44,138  were 
expended  in  connection  with  the  three  undertakings  mentioned 
above.  The  local  indebtedness  on  account  of  loans  and  stock  at 
the  close  of  the  year  amounted  to  £25,778,911.  Of  this,  £10,829,585 
appertained  to  municipal  authorities,  being  an  increase  of  £9,172,- 
143  since  1878,  the  year  in  which  the  first  of  the  existing  code  of 
Irish  Public  Health  Statutes  was  enacted.  The  municipal  indebt- 
edness includes  £1,613,281  for  water  supplies;  £2,132,842  for  pur- 
poses of  lighting;  £1,066,767  for  sewerage;  and  £1,635,649  in 
respect  of  schemes  for  the  housing  of  the  working  classes;  while 
for  housing  schemes  in  rural  districts  the  indebtedness  stood  at 
£7,269,832.  The  amount  standing  to  the  credit  of  sinking  funds 
applicable  to  the  discharge  of  the  portion  of  the  local  indebtedness 
which  is  repayable  by  such  means  was  £1,556,442  at  the  close  of 
the  year. 

That  is  a  summary  which  I  have  made  from  the  local  taxation 
reports  for  your  information. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Do  I  understand  your  claims  to  be: 
(1)  that  British  taxation  has  been  excessive;  (2)  that  it  has  been 
wastefully  expended;  (3)  that  the  willingness  of  the  local  bodies 
shows  a  desire  to  support  all  possible  social  enterprises;  and  (4), 
that  there  is  reason  to  believe  that  the  Irish  Republic  is  not  only 
willing,  but  is  able  to  support  all  socially  useful  enterprises  at  more 
than  20  per  cent,  less  than  the  present  cost  of  administration  by  the 
British  Government?  Is  that  your, position?  A.  That  is  our  posi- 
tion, sir. 


957 


BRITISH    INSURANCE    COMPANIES    TAKE    MONEY 
FROM   IRELAND 

Q.  I  have  heard  it  said  that  practically  all  the  insurance  com- 
panies are  owned  by  British  capitalists,  and  that  all  of  the  banks 
are  British,  and  that  all  this  constitutes  a  drain  upon  the  financial 
wealth  of  Ireland.  Is  that  correct?  A.  As  a  general  statement, 
that  is  correct,  sir.  The  insurance  companies  take  a  very  large 
amount  of  money  in  premiums  annually  out  of  Ireland. 

Q.  And  they  do  not  invest  it  in  Ireland?  A.  No,  they  do  not 
invest  it  in  municipal  bonds  and  so  forth,  like  they  do  in  England. 
Of  course,  they  spend  a  small  amount  for  office  rent,  commissions, 
and  like  expense. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  But  there  is  no  arrangement  like  our  Amer- 
ican insurance  companies  sometimes  have  for  putting  out  in  loans 
in  the  locality  the  sums  received  from  premiums  in  that  district? 
A.     No,  sir;  there  is  no  such  arrangement. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Broadly  speaking,  they  do  not  invest  in 
Irish  industry?  A.  Not  in  Irish  industry  or  in  Irish  development, 
sir. 

BANKS  DRAIN  DEPOSITS  TO  LONDON   INSTEAD 
OF  AIDING  DEVELOPMENT  OF  IRELAND 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  How  about  the  banks?  A.  We  have  in 
Ireland,,  as  you  have  here,  savings  banks  and  joint  stock  banks — 
the  capitalistic  banks.   There  are  9  such  joint  stock  banks  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  How  many?  A.  Nine.  Of  course 
they  have  over  a  thousand  branches.  Within  the  past  few  years 
two  of  those  banks, — Ulster  banks;  one  is  named  the  Ulster  Bank 
and  the  other  is  named  the  Belfast  Banking  Company, — have  been 
bought  out  and  acquired  by  English  banks.  Four  of  those  banks 
have  their  head  offices  in  London,  and  their  boards  of  directors  meet 
in  London.  The  Bank  of  Ireland  is,  in  addition,  the  bank  of  the 
British  Government  in  Ireland.  The  whole  system,  so  far  as  I  have 
studied  it,  is  that  they  take  the  deposits  of  the  Irish  people  at  a 
very  nominal  rate  of  interest, — just  before  the  war  we  used  to  get 
1^2  per  cent,  and  thought  ourselves  very  fortunate  to  get  2  per  cent, 
from  the  banks. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  That  is  time  deposits?  A.  I  am  talking 
of  the  joint-stock  banks. 

Q.  But  of  what  character  of  accounts?  A.  We  have  two  kinds, 
a  deposit  account  and  a  current  account.  The  current  account  is 
similar  to  your  "checking"  account  here;  and  no  interest  is  paid  on 
that  except  for  heavy  balances  by  special  arrangement.    The  deposit 


958 

account  is  the  one  I  refer  to.  The  farming  class  as  a  rule  do  not 
have  current  accounts.  They  put  their  money  on  deposit.  That 
money  is  transferred  to  England  and  placed  at  the  disposition  of 
the  Bank  of  England;  and  the  Irish  banks  trade  and  carry  on  on 
the  difference  between  what  they  receive  from  the  Bank  of  England 
for  the  money  and  what  the  man  who  deposits  it  in  Ireland  receives 
from  them.  They  are  very  different  from  the  banks  such  as  you 
have  in  this  country,  because  they  have  no  settled  policy  for  the 
development  of  Ireland  by  the  investment  of  these  surplus  funds  in 
Ireland.  That  has  constituted  an  enormous  drain  upon  the  resources 
of  the  country.  Under  a  proper  form  of  government,  that  money 
would  be  employed  in  Ireland  for  the  development  of  the  country. 
As  it  is  under  the  present  system,  it  is  lying  at  the  disposition  of 
the  Bank  of  England,  and  at  a  very  low  rate  of  interest  there;  and 
the  Irish  banks  merely  trade  on  the  difference. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  leads  me  to  ask,  Mr.  Consul- 
General,  about  the  general  subject  of  the  development  of  Irish 
resources.  It  is  alleged,  I  believe,  that  Ireland  has  certain  coal 
deposits  and  other  mineral  resources,  which  have  not  been  ade- 
quately developed;  that  Ireland  has  harbors  on  the  west  coast  that 
have  not  been  developed.  What  is  the  reason  for  that?  Is  it  due 
to  the  discriminatory  policy  of  the  British  Government,  or  the 
character  of  the  people?  A.  That  question  refers  to  the  develop- 
ment of  Irish  resources,  I  suppose? 

Commissioner  Thomas:  It  does. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Before  you  go  to  that,  you  said  that 
these  funds  in  the  Irish  banks  were  sent  out  of  the  country  for 
investment  with  the  Bank  of  England.  Does  that  refer  to  deposits 
or  savings  accounts?  A.  The  amount  on  deposit  in  savings  banks 
before  the  war  would  not  amount  to  £15,000,000  in  the  year.  Al- 
most all  of  that  is  in  the  post-office  savings  bank,  which  is  a  British 
institution,  and  the  funds  of  which,  of  course,  are  sent  to  England. 

FALLACY  OF  PAPER  MONEY  PROSPERITY 

Q.  Our  friends  from  Ulster  said  that  the  bank  deposits  in  Ire- 
land had  increased  under  English  rule  from  $380,000,000  to 
$780,000,000  in  ten  years;  and  that  would  refer  to  these  amounts 
combined.  A.  Yes.  There  is  a  misconception  on  that  whole  ques- 
tion as  to  the  amount  of  money  on  deposit  in  Ireland.  These 
Ulstermen,  when  they  were  here  and  made  that  statement,  brought 
it  forward  as  an  evidence  of  Irish  prosperity  under  English  rule. 
They  ignored  or  perhaps  they  did  not  know  that  the  pound  today 
in  Ireland,  which  was  worth  around  twenty  shillings  before  the  war, 
is  today  not  worth  eight  shillings;  and  that  if  we  were  to  compute 
the  deposits  of  today  on  the  value  of  the  pound  in  1914,  it  would 


959 

be  found  that  the  purchasing  value  of  our  money   in   those  hanks 
had  very  considerably  depreciated. 

Q.  The  depreciation  of  the  pound  applies  also  to  England, 
doesn't  it?  A.  Yes,  but  that  is  no  argument  that  the  prosperity 
of  the  country  has  increased.  It  simply  means  that  the  country  has 
been  flooded  with  British  paper  money. 

COOPERATIVE  LAND  BANK  HELPS  SOLVE  LAND 
PROBLEM 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Before  you  leave  that  subject,  would 
you  please  discuss  the  cooperative  banks  that  have  been  formed  in 
Ireland  during  the  past  few  years?  A.  The  cooperative  banks 
which  were  formed  in  Ireland  were  established  as  agricultural  credit 
societies. 

Commissioner  Howe:  That  is  what  I  have  reference  to. 

The  Witness:  They  have  not  very  generally  progressed,  as  far  as 
my  recollection  on  the  institutions  goes;  they  have  not  developed 
to  the  extent  to  which  it  was  desired  they  would.  That  was  due  to 
a  multiplicity  of  considerations.  There  has  been  a  constant  agita- 
tion, as  any  of  you  who  are  interested  in  cooperation  know, — there 
has  been  a  constant  agitation  against  all  cooperative  enterprises; 
and  steps  were  initiated  in  the  British  Parliament  to  prevent  the 
spread  of  the  cooperative  movement  in  Ireland.  I  mentioned  a  while 
ago  in  those  financial  figures  a  grant  known  as  the  Irish  Develop- 
ment Grant.  Portions  of  that  grant  were  originally  intended  to  go 
to  the  development  of  cooperative  effort  in  Ireland,  including  co- 
operative credit  societies  and  those  cooperative  banks.  That  money 
has  not  been  applied,  largely  due  to  the  animosity  of  the  trading 
element  in  England,  and  to  a  certain  degree  in  Ireland  itself.  The 
principal  bank  for  the  cooperative  industry  in  Ireland  is  the  bank 
attached  to  the  Irish  Cooperative  Wholesale  Society.  The  Whole- 
sale Society  is  a  trading  society  run  on  cooperative  lines.  Sir 
Horace  Plunkett  is  one  of  the  heads  of  it.  Mr.  Howard  Barbour, 
an  Ulster  man,  is  also  another  of  the  heads  of  it.  During  the  past 
year  there  was  also  established  a  land  bank.  The  land  bank  was 
established  to  meet  the  needs  of  the  agricultural  communities  in 
Ireland.  The  joint-stock  banks  have  not  at  any  time  catered  to  the 
special  needs  of  the  agricultural  class  in  Ireland.  An  object  of  the 
land  bank  was  to  assist  in  the  purchase  and  breaking  up  of  the 
large  grass  ranches  in  Ireland,  in  order  to  divide  them  up  into 
economic  holdings,  and  to  put  the  Irish  people  back  onto  the  soil 
in  Ireland.  I  am  glad  to  say  that  that  bank  has  so  far  been  very 
successful    in   its   operations.      Through   its   help   some   half   dozen 


960 

large  estates  in  Ireland  have  been  acquired,  have  been  bought  out, 
have  been  broken  up  into  economic  holdings,  and  the  agriculturists 
have  been  put  back  upon  them. 

ORGANIZATION  AND  OPERATION  OF  THE  LAND 
BANK 

It  may  be  of  interest  to  you  to  know  how  this  bank  functions. 
It  does  not  purchase  the  land  directly  itself,  nor  does  it  deal  directly 
with  the  tenant.  One  of  its  officers  goes  into  a  district  where  there 
is  a  large  estate  to  be  sold,  and  convenes  a  meeting  of  those  having 
claims  upon  that  land,  and  of  those  who  have  no  land  in  the  dis- 
trict, and  those  whose  holdings  are  non-economic, — are  not  large 
enough  to  maintain  their  families  in  comfort.  These  men  are  sum- 
moned together  and  formed  into  a  cooperative  society.  Through 
this  cooperative  society  so  formed  the  bank  negotiates  for  the  pur- 
chase of  the  estate.  The  bank  advances  the  money  to  the  coopera- 
tive society,  which  enables  it  to  purchase  the  estate.  The  cooperative 
society  and  not  the  bank  divides  up  the  estate  into  economic  hold- 
ings. The  society  and  not  the  individual  tenants  is  responsible  to 
the  bank  for  the  payment  of  the  annuities.  So  far  that  bank  has 
been  very  successful,  and  I  understand  a  half-dozen  branches  of  it 
have  been  recently  opened  in  various  centers  throughout  Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  statutory  authority  do  you  have 
to  organize  a  bank  of  that  kind?  A.  The  bank  was  established 
by  order  or  by  decree  of  Dail  Eireann.  I  will  quote  for  you  later, 
if  you  desire,  the  actual  decree  of  the  Parliament  establishing  the 
bank. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Why  did  not  the  British  dissolve  it? 
A.  There  are  some  things  that  are  possible  to  the  British,  and  there 
are  some  things  which  are  not  possible  or  practicable  for  them  to 
accomplish. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  It  had  some  original  capital  fund, 
then?  A.  It  is  operating  as  an  ordinary  bank,  sir.  It  receives 
deposits  and  current  accounts,  and  uses  its  resources  to  buy  land. 

ALIEN  LANDLORDISM  NO  LONGER  AN  OBSTACLE 

Q.  Major  Newman:  They  would  have  to  find  a  willing  seller. 
A.  Land  has  gone  to  such  a  price  in  Ireland  that  landlords  who 
formerly  had  refused  to  sell  to  their  tenants  are  now  glad  to  do  so. 

Q.  Has  there  not  been  some  depreciation  in  land  prices  in  Ire- 
land? A.  No,  sir.  There  has  always  been  a  land  hunger  in 
Ireland. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Does  alien  landlordism  figure  at  all  in 
the  present  situation?  A.  Alien  landlordism  doesn't  figure  to  any 
appreciable  extent. 


961 

Q.  It  would  figure,  I  should  think,  in  case  of  heavy  taxation  or 
confiscation  of  the  land,  or  if  the  Irish  courts  valued  the  lands  down 
too  low.  A.  None  of  those  matters,  so  far  as  I  know,  has  so  far 
arisen.  Where  there  have  been  disputes  over  land  titles,  those  cases 
have  been  dealt  with  by  the  courts  of  Dail  Eireann. 

Q.  There  has  been  no  trouble,  then,  in  connection  with  acquir- 
ing the  land?     A.     No,  sir. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  They  do  not  seem  to  fear  that  the  land  may 
be  confiscated?  A.  So  long  as  there  are  4,000,000  Irish  people  in 
Ireland,  there  is  no  fear  of  confiscation. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  But  they  might  fear  for  their  alien 
estates.     A.     Of  course,  alien  landlordism  will  have  to  go. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  It  is,  as  I  understand  it,  against  Sinn 
Fein  policy  to  permit  alien  landlordism.  Your  declaration  of  inde- 
pendence contains  the  statement  that  the  land  of  Ireland  belongs 
to  the  Irish  people.     A.     Yes,  sir. 

IRELAND'S    RICH    UNDEVELOPED    MINERAL 
RESOURCES 

On  that  question  of  mineral  development  you  were  asking  about — 

Commissioner  Thomas:  Yes,  I  was  asking  about  it. 

The  Witness:  The  question  of  mineral  development  in  Ireland  is 
in  this  position:  we  have  not  had  a  proper  survey  made  of  the 
mineral  wealth  of  Ireland.  Secondly,  there  has  been  a  good  deal 
of  confusion  in  the  different  Land  Acts  as  to  the  ownership  of  the 
minerals  under  the  soil.  Under  one  Act  the  ownership  would  vest 
in  the  tenant.  In  another,  the  landlord  could  maintain  ownership. 
Under  another  Act  the  ownership  of  the  minerals  was  reserved  to 
the  Land  Commission,  which  was  the  British  Government.  That  was 
true  of  the  Act  of  1893.  That  Land  Commission  has  no  money  or 
no  machinery  to  develop  the  mineral  wealth,  and  the  British  Gov- 
ernment has  not  given  it  money  to  develop  it. 

Q.     It  is  not  even  partly  explored?     A.     Only  partly  surveyed. 

Q.  On  the  basis  of  what  you  do  know,  would  you  say  that  you 
have  a  large  number  of  undeveloped  resources,  in  comparison  to 
other  countries?     A.     Yes,  sir.     Coal,  peat,  iron. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Water  power?  A.  Yes,  we  have  water 
power  which  is  running  untapped  to  the  sea.  We  have  a  very  large 
rainfall  in  Ireland,  which,  if  it  were  conserved,  would  supply  an 
enormous  quantity  of  electric  light  and  power  for  domestic  and 
industrial  purposes.  Then  there  are  any  number  of  untapped 
mineral  resources — coal,  lignite,  lead,  copper,  bauxite,  barytes — 
I  could  run  through  a  whole  list  of  them. 

Q.     Commissioner  Thomas:  Could  you  file  with  the  Commission 


962 

a  list?  I  don't  know  that  it  would  be  of  value  now,  but  I  think  it 
might  be  in  the  final  report,  would  it  not,  Mr.  Howe? 

Commissioner  Howe:   Yes. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  I  am  particularly  interested  in  asking 
this  question  because,  with  regard  to  Central  Europe,  the  question 
was  raised  that  self-determination  with  bankruptcy  would  be  no 
good.  And  it  is  held  that  that  is  where  Ireland  would  be.  And  that 
is  why  I  am  asking  these  questions.  A.  No,  sir,  there  is  no  danger 
of  bankruptcy  in  Ireland  under  Irish  government.  I  have  in  my 
hand  a  copy  of  a  lecture  delivered  by  Professor  E.  St.  John  Lyburn, 
of  Dublin  University.  The  lecture  is  entitled,  "Irish  Minerals  and 
Raw  Materials:  Opportunities  for  Development."  It  was  delivered 
to  the  Committee  of  the  Scientific  and  Debating  Society  attached  to 
the  Royal  College  of  Science  for  Ireland.  Professor  Lyburn  is  ad- 
viser on  mining  matters  to  the  Irish  Land  Commission.  He  has 
here,  under  various  heads,  dealt  with  the  following  mineral  deposits 
in  Ireland:  barytes,  diatomite,  ochre,  coal,  cement,  molybdenite, 
steatite,  sand-lime  brick,  carbide  of  calcium,  road-making  materials, 
peat,  iron  ore,  bauxite,  fire-clay,  lignite,  pyrites,  gypsum,  felspar, 
glass  sands,  materials  for  paint  manufacture,  and  mineral  bleaching 
powder.  He  has  developed  each  of  those  in  his  lecture.  If  you 
are  interested  in  that  publication,  I  can  let  you  have  it. 

Q.     Chairman  Wood:  Can  you  file  that  with  us?     A.     Yes. 

IRELAND   CAN   SUPPORT  TWELVE  MILLION 
PEOPLE 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  You  would  say,  then,  that  Ireland  is 
not  dependent  merely  on  its  agricultural  wealth  for  its  future  de- 
velopment economically?  A.  I  am  satisfied  from  my  own  study  of 
Irish  wealth  and  resources  that  she  has  within  her  all  the  possi- 
bilities of  development  for  sustaining  a  large  population. 

Q.  What  estimate  would  you  make  of  the  population  that  Ireland 
might  comfortably  and  happily  maintain  if  it  was  properly  de- 
veloped? I  do  not  mean  if  it  is  exploited,  but  if  it  is  properly 
developed.  A.  I  am  satisfied  that  Ireland  can  support  a  population 
of  at  least  12,000,000  people. 

Q.     Three  times  what  you  now  have?     A.    Yes,  sir. 

IRELAND'S  UNEQUALED  HARBORS  NEGLECTED 

Q.  I  understand  from  a  casual  survey  of  the  map  that  you  must 
have  some  very  fine  harbors  on  your  west  coast.  In  what  shape 
are  they  as  regards  present  value?  A.  We  have  in  Ireland  the  best 
harbors  in  Europe.  There  is  no  country  in  Europe  fronting  the 
Atlantic   that   has   harbors   equal   to   those   that    Ireland   possesses. 


963 

Generally  speaking,  they  are  not  in  good  modern-harbor  condition. 
They  have  been  neglected.  They  have  been  nobody's  property. 
There  is  no  public  fund  in  Ireland  out  of  which  harbors  can  be 
developed  and  maintained,  such  as  there  is  in  other  countries.  It 
has  not  been  to  the  interest  of  England  to  develop  the  harbors  of 
Ireland,  because  her  policy  has  been  to  secure  for  England  the  ship- 
ping and  the  trade  of  the  world.  The  one  harbor  of  Ireland  that 
is  in  a  position  to  be  a  serious  rival  of  certain  English  ports  is  the 
harbor  of  Cork;  and  the  English  ports  that  I  have  referred  to,  prin- 
cipally Liverpool,  have  waged  an  unceasing  warfare  against  Cork 
harbor.  Cork  harbor  is  the  most  advantageous  harbor  for  Atlantic 
trade,  for  shipping  can  do  more  journeys  in  a  given  time  from 
America  to  Cork  Harbor  than  they  can  from  America  to  English 
ports.  They  can  make  more  journeys  in  that  given  time  and  at 
less  cost  for  operation.  And  the  cost  of  handling  goods  in  Cork  is 
much  less  than  the  cost  of  handling  goods,  say,  at  Liverpool. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  that  because  of  lower  wages?  A. 
Not  because  of  lower  wages  alone. 

Q.  Insofar  as  it  is  due  to  lower  wages,  it  would  not  be  a  perma- 
nent advantage,  would  it?  A.  No,  sir.  It  is  due,  among  other 
reasons,  to  the  fact  that  vessels  do  not  have  to  wait  for  an  incoming 
tide  to  cross  a  bar.  A  pilot  is  not  necessary;  it  is  optional  with 
the  captain.  The  large  shipping  companies  have  not  yet  monopo- 
lized the  shipping  and  clock  facilities.  Those  are  some  of  the  con- 
siderations that  make  Cork  a  very  great  rival  of  certain  English 
ports. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  How  about  Gal  way?  A.  Galway  has 
a  very  wonderful  harbor,  sir.  But  it  needs  an  expenditure  of  a  large 
amount  of  money  to  make  it  desirable  for  ocean-going  liners. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Now,  a  harbor  like  that  would  make  it  even 
more  desirable  for  shipping  from  America,  would  it  not?  A.  Yes, 
but  you  have  to  remember  present  conditions. 

Q.  But  I  am  thinking  of  the  future.  A.  Blacksod  Bay  and  Gal- 
way would  be  wonderful  harbors  for  the  development  of  trade  be- 
tween Ireland  and  America.  But  what  I  have  in  mind  is  the  Euro- 
pean trade  as  well.  Galway  and  Blacksod  would  not  compare  or 
compete  with  Cork  in  this  respect. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  Fawsitt,  has  there  not  been  a  steamship  line, 
— the  Panhandle  Steamship  Company, — opened  up  for  developing 
trade  between  America  and  Cork?  A.  Yes,  two  lines;  one  freight, 
the  other  for  passenger  traffic. 


964 

HARBOR  BOARDS  RESPONSIBLE  TO  IRISH 
PEOPLE  WILL  DEVELOP   HARBORS 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  That  situation  is  very  important,  and 
I  want  therefore  to  ask  this  question:  Those  harbors  can  be  devel- 
oped by  American  capital,  let  us  say?  I  mean  to  say,  would  the  loss 
of  British  capital  be  a  factor  in  the  development  of  those  ports? 
A.    No. 

Q.  I  have  heard  that  these  ports  could  be  developed  if  they 
could  get  capital.  A.  Let  us  take  the  case  of  Cork.  Funds  could 
be  raised,  for  instance,  on  the  revenue  of  the  harbor.  They  do 
maintain  the  harbor  at  present  out  of  revenue.  The  harbor  would, 
and  will  be,  developed  when  we  have  an  authority  sympathetic  to 
the  interests  of  the  port.  The  harbor  boards  in  Ireland,  it  is  neces- 
sary to  explain,  have  been  in  the  hands  of  representatives  of  a 
particular  class  of  persons  in  Ireland, — of  the  commercial  class  and 
the  shipping  class.  They  have  not  been  elected  on  a  popular  fran- 
chise, such  as  the  corporations  and  the  county  councils.  To  become 
a  member  of  any  one  of  the  chief  harbor  boards  you  must,  as  a 
rule,  hold  at  least  one  thousand  pounds  of  the  stock  of  that  harbor 
board.  It  is  necessary  also  to  belong  to  the  commercial  or  shipping 
community.  And  in  certain  cases  the  harbor  commissioners  are 
elected  by  the  local  shipping  community  and  by  the  local  chamber 
of  commerce.  Up  to  recently  those  boards  have  been  controlled  and 
the  policy  of  those  boards  has  been  directed  by  men  who  were  not 
friendly  disposed  towards  the  political  aspirations  of  Ireland.  The 
merchants  and  the  cross-channel  shipping  representatives  at  those 
ports,  the  importers  principally,  were  the  men  who  were  on  those 
boards;  and  the  English  shipping  companies  were  interested  in  see- 
ing that  there  was  no  foreign  shipping  trade.  And  the  result  is  that 
those  ports  have  not  been  developed,  and  it  was  not  within  the 
competence  of  the  Irish  people  to  see  that  they  were  so  developed. 

Now,  as  a  result  of  the  recent  elections,  representation  has 
been  secured  on  the  Harbor  Board  of  Cork.  That  board  is  wholly 
elected  by  the  Cork  Corporation  from  its  members  as  such  and  from 
trading  interests.  In  the  course  of  time  that  harbor  board  will 
come  under  the  direct  influence  of  the  Republican  Government. 
That  is  an  important  factor  when  you  ask  why  our  ports  have  not 
been  developed.  As  soon  as  the  harbor  boards  are  made  respon- 
sible to  public  opinion  and  public  need,  those  ports  will  be  de- 
veloped. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Those  harbor  boards  are  an  incorporated 
body?     A.     They  are  an  incorporated  body. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  issue  of  stock.  A.  Yes,  that  is  the  stock 
they  put  out  for  the  development  of  the  harbor. 

Q.     They  have  charge  of  the  harbor  front?     A.     Yes,  they  have 


965 

charge  of  the  harbor  front,  and  their  revenues  come  largely  from 
the  charges  made  for  the  use  of  the  docks. 

OBSTRUCTIONS    TO    DEVELOPMENT    UNDER 
ENGLISH  LAW 

Q.  Do  they  own  the  land  along  the  water  front?  A.  No,  the 
English  Board  of  Trade  claims  to  have  authority  over  the  foreshore. 
The  quays  at  Cork  are  owned — the  harbor  board  has  control  over 
the  quays;  but  the  roads  abutting  to  those  quays  are  owned  by  the 
corporation  in  trust  for  the  city.  The  Cork  Harbor  Board  wanted 
to  get  control  of  certain-  swamp  lands  to  enlarge  their  dockage 
facilities,  and  under  their  charter  it  was  necessary  to  get  a  permit 
from  the  English  Board  of  Trade  before  they  could  develop  such 
lands.  We  are  opposed  to  paying  an  annual  rent  to  the  Board  of 
Trade  for  the  use  of  such  lands. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  But  the  title  to  those  lands  was  in  indi- 
viduals, was  it  not?  A.  Yes,  except  the  foreshore  land,  which  is 
claimed  by  the  English  Board  of  Trade. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  What  is  the  tide  at  Cork?  A.  Six  feet  or  so. 
The  largest  vessels  afloat  can  float  in  Cork  harbor.  The  anchorage 
is  almost  unlimited.  It  was  the  base  of  the  American  fleet  during 
the  war.  They  had  no  difficulty  in  using  Cork  harbor  or  Bearhaven 
or  any  of  the  others.  In  addition  to  being  spacious  harbors,  they 
are  sheltered  from  the  Atlantic  winds. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  The  construction  of  a  bridge  over  a  navi- 
gable stream,  for  instance,  as  I  understand  it,  is  taken  out  from  the 
authority  of  the  local  boards.  A.  Yes,  sir;  the  law  was  that  they 
had  to  get  permission  from  the  English  Parliament  or  Privy  Council 
to  erect  that  bridge,  or  to  change  a  roadway. 

Q.  I  remember  a  case  of  which  my  friends  told  me  where  a 
market  was  on  one  side  of  a  river  and  the  population  was  on  the 
other,  and  the  people  had  to  drive  fifteen  miles  or  so  in  order  to  get 
around.  They  wanted  to  put  a  bridge  across  the  stream.  They  went 
to  London,  and  there  was  much  obstruction  encountered  in  their 
endeavor  to  get  what  they  wanted.  A.  That  appeared  to  be  the 
ordinary  experience. 

IRELAND'S    DEMONSTRATED    ABILITY    TO 
GOVERN  ITSELF 

Q.  How  far  do  the  local  functions  belong  to  these  local  boards? 
We  hear  so  much  about  Ireland  not  being  able  to  govern  itself. 
How  much  government  is  done  for  them?  A.  Well,  you  have 
heard  me  read  today  the  total  revenues  which  the  local  boards  levy, 
collect  and  disburse,  amounting  to  over  £5,000,000  sterling  annu- 
ally.     They   must  give   some   value   for   that,   sir.      Thai   money    is 


966 

expended  in  the  maintenance  of  roads,  public  lighting,  water  supply, 
sanitation,  public  health,  education — so  far  as  technical  education 
is  concerned — and  the  maintenance  of  libraries. 

Q.  Most  of  the  intimate  functions  of  government,  where  they 
touch  the  individual  human  being,  are  already  carried  out  by  these 
local  councils?  A.  Yes,  subject  to  the  English  Local  Government 
Board  in  Ireland. 

Q.  These  councils  are  made  up  entirely  of  Irishmen?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  the  local  councils  are  elected  from  and  by  the  Irish  people. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Under  the  Lloyd  George  Home  Rule 
Bill,  Mr.  Consul-General,  supposing  it  were  accepted,  would  the 
Irish  Parliament  have  control  of  these  ports  and  the  other  matters 
that  we  have  been  previously  discussing?  A.  I  must  plead  igno- 
rance of  the  Lloyd  George  Bill,  sir. 

Q.  I  should  imagine  so,  but  I  thought  you  might  happen  to 
recall.     A.     No,  sir. 

REPUBLICAN   GOVERNMENT   BREAKS   ENGLAND'S 
MONOPOLY  ON  IRISH  TRADE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  We  got  diverted  from  the  shipping  question  and 
the  experience  of  the  Panhandle  State  Steamship  Company.  A.  We 
have  been  confronted  with  this  situation  in  Ireland  for  quite  a  num- 
ber of  years,  that  our  trade  has  been  the  absolute  monopoly  of 
England,  and  that  at  the  same  time  all  our  harbors  on  the  south  and 
west  coast  have  been  denuded  of  shipping;  and  that  such  shipping 
trade  as  we  had  was  almost  wholly  trade  to  and  from  English  ports. 
That  has  been  the  economic  weakness  of  our  situation.  For  this 
reason  we  were  not  in  a  position  to  sell  in  the  best  market,  nor  were 
we  in  a  position  to  buy  in  the  best  market.  Under  the  system  that 
England  had  brought  about,  she  was  our  only  market  and  the  only 
place  where  we  could  buy  such  goods  as  we  wanted.  We  have  been 
directing  our  efforts  since  the  Republican  Government  was  started 
to  changing  all  that.  The  Government  sent  its  consuls  to  the  differ- 
ent countries.  We  have  consuls  in  France,  Spain,  and  Italy,  Bel- 
gium, and  Denmark,  and  other  European  countries,  as  well  as  in 
the  United  States  of  America.  And  these  men  have  been  instructed 
to  bring  about  closer  trade  relations  between  those  countries  and 
Ireland;  and  they  also  have  been  instructed  to  obtain  a  market  in 
those  countries  for  Irish  goods,  and  to  obtain  in  those  countries 
such  goods  as  they  can  supply  and  Ireland  needs  for  her  own  use. 
Furthermore,  they  have  been  directed  to  secure  direct  shipping  be- 
tween those  countries  and  Ireland. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  That  has  been  done  under  the  new  regime? 
A.  That  has  been  done  under  the  Republican  regime.  There  has 
been  and  is  now  out  of  New  York  a  good  service  of  freight  boats  to 
the  Irish  ports. 


967 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  they  American  owned?  A.  They  are  Amer- 
ican owned,  flying  the  American  flag.  We  expect  that  during  the 
coming  months  there  will  be  another  line  out  of  Boston  also  to 
the  Irish  ports.  There  was  an  announcement  of  a  second  line  out 
of  New  York  to  Irish  ports  that  appeared  in  the  New  York  shipping 
and  commercial  papers  two  or  three  weeks  ago.  Our  consul  in 
France  arranged  direct  shipments  to  Ireland,  and  similar  arrange- 
ments have  been  made  from  Holland,  Spain,  and  Portugal.  We 
have  also  out  of  Cork  now  a  direct  freight  service  on  American  ships 
from  Cork  to  Copenhagen  and  the  Baltic  ports.  To  that  extent  we 
have,  at  any  rate,  broken  down  the  wall  which  England  had  put 
around  Ireland;  and  we  have  attracted  from  foreign  ports  consider- 
able tonnage  to  our  shores.  We  have  got  direct  some  of  the  foreign- 
produced  goods  that  we  needed;  and  we  have  exported,  principally 
to  America,  goods  that  otherwise  would  not  have  come  here.  The 
old  custom  was  that  our  goods  would  be  shipped  to  England,  and 
would  be  shipped  from  there  as  English  goods.  Due  to  the  absence 
of  an  Irish  department  of  customs,  we  have  no  records  of  our  trade 
with  foreign  countries. 

BRITISH    INTERFERENCE    WITH    AMERICAN 
FREIGHT  SERVICE  TO  IRISH   PORTS 

Our  work  now  is  in  breaking  virgin  soil.  I  am  very  pleased  to 
say  that  the  service  between  American  ports  and  Irish  ports  has 
been  successful ;  and  I  think  that  that  service  is  as  financially  suc- 
cessful as  that  of  any  other  service  to  Europe  from  this  country. 
I  can  put  before  you  figures  showing  the  growth  of  that  trade  month 
after  month  for  the  past  twelve  months. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Are  those  passenger  boats?  A.  Those 
are  freight  boats,  in  which  we  are  much  more  interested  than  in 
passenger  boats. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Are  they  allowed  to  land  in  Ireland? 
I  thought  there  was  some  regulation  about  that.  A.  Yes,  I  was 
coming  to  that  in  a  minute.  Freight  boats  have  been  permitted,  I 
might  say,  to  dock  by  the  British  authorities;  but  not  a  single  one 
of  those  boats  has  avoided  interference  by  the  British  authorities  at 
the  Irish  ports.  From  the  very  first  boat  to  the  last  boat  that  has 
gone  there,  every  one  has  been  subjected  to  some  interference  by 
the  British  authorities  at  the  Irish  ports. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Don't  you  think  that  after  this  trade  de- 
velops, as  it  gives  promise  to,  that  the  British  Government  will 
interfere  with  those  boats  landing  directly  at  an  Irish  port?  A. 
She  will  go  as  far  as  she  can  to  prevent  this  service  becoming  a 
permanent  one. 

Q.  She  may  let  up  on  you  a  while,  and  then  pay  her  debts  out  of 
shipping  profits,  and  then  come  back  on  you  again.     A.     Every  one 


968 

of  those  ships  has  been  raided  by  the  authorities,  ostensibly  looking 
for  arms  and  ammunition  and  secret  dispatches  and  "undesirables." 

Q.  Do  not  those  things  have  a  tendency  to  interfere  with  the 
trade,  and  may,  if  carried  on,  prevent  the  trade  entirely?  A.  Yes, 
it  is  an  indication  of  what  is  coming.  And  it  has  this  effect,  that  it 
makes  it  very  onerous  for  the  individual  seaman  going  into  an  Irish 
port  to  have  his  person  and  his  possessions  searched  by  the  British 
Government.  Every  one  of  these  seamen  has  his  possessions  and 
his  cabin  and  his  person  searched  by  the  British  officials. 

Q.  They  do  not  even  stop  with  that,  according  to  some  of  our 
witnesses.1  A.  They  have  even  mounted  machine  guns  on  one  of 
these  ships,  and  they  would  not  allow  the  cargo  to  be  unloaded  or 
the  captain  to  land  for  a  time. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Those  were  relief  supplies,  were  they  not?  A. 
Part  of  the  cargo  consisted  of  relief  supplies. 

BRITISH    ADMIRALTY    PROHIBITS    AMERICAN 
PASSENGER   SERVICE  TO  CORK 

England  has  not  so  far  prevented  the  freight  trade.  She  has  pre- 
vented, however,  passenger  vessels  flying  the  American  flag  putting 
into  Cork  harbor.  It  was  announced  early  in  the  year  that  passen- 
ger boats  built  in  a  Philadelphia  yard  and  flying  the  American  flag 
were  to  be  routed  on  the  Atlantic,  some  of  them  out  of  New  York 
and  some  others  of  them  out  of  Boston,  for  European  ports,  calling 
at  Cork  harbor.  It  is  a  very  remarkable  fact  that  while  that  first 
boat  was  on  the  ocean,  with  passengers,  freight  and  mails,  the 
British  Admiralty  issued  an  order  prohibiting  her  and  prohibiting 
other  ships  on  the  eastbound  voyage  to  call  at  Cork  harbor.  Before 
that  there  had  not  been  any  such  prohibition,  because  the  only  ships 
calling  at  Cork  harbor  were  British  vessels.  But  here  was  an  Amer- 
ican vessel  desiring  to  cater  to  the  needs  of  American  citizens  who 
want  to  go  to  Ireland  and  of  Irish  citizens  coming  to  America;  and 
the  English  step  in  with  an  order  and  say,  "You  shall  not  go  into 
Cork  harbor."  A  more  remarkable  thing  is  that  some  two  weeks 
before  that  ship  sailed,  a  dispatch  was  sent  by  the  correspondent 
of  and  appeared  in  the  London  Daily  Chronicle,  which  is  Mr.  Lloyd 
George's  paper,  announcing  that  those  ships  were  going,  and  stating 
that  the  representatives  of  the  While  Star  and  Cunard  and  other 
English  lines  here  were  wondering  whether  or  not  this  "foreign" 
ship  would  be  allowed  into  Cork  harbor.  That  was  several  days 
before  the  first  ship  sailed.  Here  is  the  dispatch  from  the  Daily 
Chronicle  of  September  3,  1920.  It  is  headed,  "New  Competition 
With  British  Companies,"  and  is  from  their  special  correspondent: 


See  testimony  of  Emil  Pezolt. 


969 


"New  York,  Thursday. 

"For  the  first  time  since  August,  1914,  a  passenger  liner  from  the 
United  States  will  arrive  in  London  this  month.  She  is  the  Panhandle 
State,  and  her  voyage  will  mark  the  inauguration  of  the  United  States 
Mail  Steamship  Company's  competition  with  the  Cunard  and  White 
Star  lines.  The  company  is  negotiating  with  the  old  North  German- 
Lloyd  an  agreement  similar  to  that  recently  concluded  between  the 
American  Ship  and  Commerce  Corporation  and  the  Hamburg-Amer- 
ican Line,  whereby  the  docking  facilities  and  routes  of  the  German 
concern  all  over  the  world  will  be  placed  at  the  American  company's 
disposal.     (The  Witness:  Mark  the  phrasing  of  that!) 

"The  Panhandle  State, — a  nickname  given  to  Texas  because  its 
shape  is  that  of  a  frying-pan  with  its  handle, — is  advertised  to  sail 
from  New  York  on  September  18th  for  Queenstown,  Boulogne,  and 
London.  She  is  the  first  transatlantic  liner  to  be  built  in  America 
in  20  years,  and  is  of  13,500  gross  tons.  She  is  luxuriously  fitted  up 
for  first-class  passengers  only. 

QUEENSTOWN  PROBLEM 
"Shipping  circles  point  out  that,  in  accordance  with  the  present 
British  regulations,  the  Cunard  and  White  Star  liners  have  eliminated 
Queenstown  on  their  eastbound  voyages,  although  they  are  permitted 
to  call  there  on  their  way  to  America.  Officials  of  those  lines  are 
wondering  whether  vessels  under  foreign  flags  will  be  privileged  to 
land   passengers   at   the   Irish   port." 

The  Witness:  That  message  was  sent  from  New  York,  and  ap- 
peared in  the  London  Daily  Chronicle  on  September  Pi.  The  boat 
sailed  on  September  18,  and  was  prohibited  entry  into  Cork  harbor. 
No  American  passenger  steamer  on  that  route  has  been  permitted  to 
call  at  Cork  harbor. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  Cork  harbor  is  Queenstown?  The  dispatch 
says  Queenstown.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  This  is  a  matter  on  which  the  Com- 
mission needs  light.  I  gather  from  what  you  have  already  said  that, 
in  spite  of  obstacles,  the  Republican  Government  has  already  done 
constructive  work.  Perhaps  you  can  outline  that  for  us.  Those  are 
the  things  that  especially  interest  the  Commission. 

REPRESSION  OF  FOREIGN  TRADE  WITH  IRELAND 
A  CONTINUOUS  BRITISH  POLICY 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  would  like  to  ask  one  question. 
Could  the  British  Government  prevent  a  boat  landing  at  Cork  harbor 
if  it  were  not  under  martial  law, — under  war-time  rule?  A.  That  is 
a  question  for  your  State  Department  to  answer. 

Q.  I  mean,  could  the  British  Government  dictate  in  general  what 
boats  could  land  in  Ireland,  or  is  it  a  part  of  the  punitive  policy  of 
the  Government  towards  Ireland  now?  A.  That  is  a  question  of 
International  Law  that  I  cannot  answer,  but  I  understand  that  within 
the  three-mile  limit  the  Government  is  in  power,  and  the  Govern- 
ment can  say  what  boats  they  will  admit  or  will  not  admit  within 
those  limits. 


970 

Q.  That  has  been  done  before,  has  it  not?  A.  Yes,  we  have 
been  crippled  and  prevented  from  developing  commercially  and 
economically  by  English  navigation  laws  and  other  repressive  legis- 
lation on  a  good  many  occasions  in  our  history. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Mr.  Consul,  at  the  time  this  regulation  was 
passed,  Cork  harbor  was  not  under  martial  law?     A.   No,  it  was  not. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  But  I  meant  under  war-time  regula- 
tions. A.  I  may  say,  on  the  shipping  proposition,  that  the  British 
Government  has  sent  out  certain  announcements  that  the  Irish  Coast 
is  not  safe  for  shipping,  with  a  view  to  keeping  shipping  out  of  those 
ports.  On  the  27th  of  October  there  appeared  in  the  issue  of  the 
New  York  Times  of  that  day  a  news  item  under  a  Baltimore  date 
line  headed:  "Warn  Ships  Off  Ireland;  Admiralty  Says  Navigation 
Guides  Are  Not  Reliable  There."  The  news  item  cited  a  notice 
prominently  posted  in  the  marine  room  of  the  Baltimore  Customs 
House  for  the  benefit  of  outbound  mariners: 

"I  have  to  report  that  an  announcement  is  made  by  the  Admiralty 
(British)  to  the  effect  that  too  much  reliance  should  not  be  placed 
upon  the  maintenance  of  fog  signals  and  lights  on  the  coast  of  Ire- 
land. The  Admiralty  also  calls  attention  to  the  fact  that  there  is  a 
liability  of  these  aids  to  navigation  being  discontinued  on  the  coast  of 
Ireland  without  any  warning  whatever." 

The  Witness:  That  is  a  very  serious  announcement,  and  I  sent  a 
letter  to  the  Harbor  Commissioners  of  Cork,  and  here  is  their  .answer : 

"I  am  directed  by  my  Commissioners  to  refer  to  your  letters  of 
15th  and  16th  November,  with  reference  to  the  following  British 
Admiralty  notice  to  mariners,  extracted  from  the  Dublin  Gazette  of 
October  3rd  last: 

'"NOTICE  TO  MARINERS 

"  'Much  reliance  is  not  to  be  placed  on  lights  and  fog  signals  along 
the  Irish  coast,  as  they  are  liable  to  be  discontinued  temporarily  with- 
out  warning.' 

and  in  reply  to  state  that  as  far  as  my  Commissioners  and  their  offi- 
cials can  ascertain,  no  shipping,  either  Irish,  British,  American,  or 
foreign,  has  avoided  the  Irish  coast  or  Irish  ports  on  account  of  this 
warning  notice. 

"There  is  no  danger  whatever  over  normal  conditions  to  shipping 
frequenting  the  Irish  coast  or  Irish  -ports ;  and  as  far  as  Cork  harbor 
is  concerned,  its  approaches,  anchorages,  and  wharves  are  absolutely 
safe.  The  only  vessels  prohibited  (by  a  British  Government  order) 
from  calling  at  this  port  are,  as  far  as  we  are  aware,  eastbound 
passenger  transatlantic  liners." 
The  Witness:  I  have  sent  this  out  to  all  the  maritime  boards  here. 

BRITISH   ORDER  PRACTICALLY  BLOCKADES 
IRISH  PORTS 

Only  this  week  there  appeared  in  the  press  here  the  following, 

sent  out  from  London  on  January  11: 

"The  mysterious  announcement  by  the  Admiralty,  believed  to  refer 
specifically  to  Irish  ports,  notifying  masters  to  watch  carefully  for 
the  discontinuance  without  warning  of  light  and  fog  signals  along  the 
Irish  coast,  is  still  in  force,  the  Admiralty  announced  today." 


971 

It  mav  be  necessary,  the  statement  adds,  to  forbid  all  entrance  to 
certain  ports.     This  is  believed  to  apply  specifically  to  Irish  ports. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Is  that  ever  justified  under  any  code 
of  martial  law,  except  in  the  case  of  actual  war?  It  practically 
means  that  there  is  war  in  Ireland.  A.  Yes,  that  is  practically  an 
acknowledgment  of  the  existence  of  a  state  of  war. 

Q.     That  is  practically  a  blockade.     A.     It  is. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  has  the  British  Government  a  right  to 
make  such  an  order?      A.     Well,  the  British  Navy  is  still  afloat. 

Q.  But  it  is  going  to  be  disarmed.  A.  In  Mr.  Asquith's  phrase, 
"Wait  and  see." 

AMERICA'S  GROWING  TRADE  WITH  IRELAND 

May  I  briefly  give  you  the  totals  of  the  trade  with  Ireland  in  the 
eleven  months  since  those  ships  began  to  run,  as  compared  with  the 
preceding  eleven  months?  The  value  of  direct  trade  between  Amer- 
ica and  Ireland:  During  1919,  America  imported  from  Ireland,  for 
the  eleven  months,  $1 1,797,896  worth  of  goods.  The  following  year, 
1920,  America  imported  from  Ireland  $36,605,809  worth  of  goods. 
America  exported  to  Ireland  in  1919  goods  valued  at  $30,775,879; 
in  1920,  $41,331,371.  That  shows  you  the  enormous  expansion  in 
the  direct  trade  between  the  two  countries  following  the  inauguration 
of  this  shipping  service. 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  How  are  those  trade  balances  you  name 
settled?  They  indicate  that  in  normal  times  the  rate  of  exchange 
would  be  in  your  favor.  A.  Under  normal  conditions  in  Irish 
trade,  we  sell  more  than  we  buy.  The  rate  of  exchange  would  be  in 
our  favor.  The  pound — if  we  had  the  sterling  currency — would  buy 
far  more  than  the  English  pound.  But  because  of  the  political  con- 
nection with  England,  and  because  of  the  fact  that  our  Republican 
Government  is  not  recognized,  we  are  in  this  position,  that  the  pound 
today  will  not  buy  eight  shillings'  worth,  while  the  pound  in  1914 
would  buy  twenty  shillings'  worth. 

FUNCTIONS  OF  IRISH  REPUBLICAN  GOVERNMENT 

Now,  as  to  the  functions  of  the  Government.  That  is  the  last  thing 
you  wanted  information  about.  I  will  put  on  record,  if  I  may,  an 
extract  from  the  official  request  made  to  the  United  States  Govern- 
ment for  recognition  of  the  Irish  Republican  Government.  This  sets 
forth  the  different  departments  of  government  established  in  Ireland. 
(Reading)  : 

"The  Government  of  the  Republic  of  Ireland  is  conducted  under 
the  central  administration  of  a  cabinet  consisting  of  the  president 
and  ministers  of  state  for  home  and  for  foreign  affairs,  for  national 
defense,  for  finance,  for  local  government,  for  industries,  for  labor, 
for    agriculture,    and    for   education,    with    supplemental    directors    of 


972 

trade  and  commerce,  of  fisheries,  of  forestry,  and  of  information. 
Each  of  these  departments  is  now  actively  functioning,  and  has  been 
so  functioning  without  interruption  since  April,  1919. 

"The  Minister  for  Foreign  Affairs  is  prosecuting  Ireland's  claim 
for  recognition  as  a  sovereign  and  independent  state  through  a  num- 
ber of  diplomatic  missions  to  foreign  peoples  and  governments.  The 
Minister  of  Defense  has  organized  a  disciplined  army  of  Volunteers, 
which  is  being  equipped.  The  Minister  of  Finance  has  floated  a  con- 
siderable loan,  both  domestic  and  foreign,  for  the  general  purposes 
of  the  government,  in  particular  for  the  economic  development  of  the 
country.  The  confidence  reposed  in  the  Republican  Government  by 
the  people  of  Ireland  is  evidenced  by  the  fact  that  the  domestic  loan 
was  over-subscribed  by  one-half.  We  asked  for  £250,000  from  the 
Irish  people,  and  they  gave  us  £370,000. 

"The  Minister  of  Local  Government  coordinates  the  work  of  the 
municipal  and  rural  councils,  and  controls  through  these  democrati- 
cally elected  bodies  the  administration  of  all  the  local  affairs  of  the 
nation.  The  Minister  of  Industries  and  the  Director  of  Trade  and 
Commerce  have  caused  a  survey  of  Ireland's  economic  resources  to  be 
made,  with  a  view  to  their  proper  utilization,  along  cooperative  lines, 
for  the  benefit  of  the  nation ;  and  they  are  developing  closer  trade 
relations  with  foreign  countries  through  the  consular  service.  The 
Ministry  of  Labor  is  particularly  concerned  with  the  advancement  of 
schemes  for  the  proper  housing  of  the  workers,  the  question  of  unem- 
ployment, and  the  arbitrament  of  industrial   disputes." 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  May  I  interrupt  here  to  ask  if  it  is 
true  that  the  Dail  Eireann  adopted  a  program  similar  to  that  of  the 
so-called  Bishops'  Program  here  in  the  United  States?  A.  I  con- 
fess I  do  not  know.     I  have  not  read  that  program. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  The  minimum  wage  and  eight-hour 
proposition.  A.  I  can  submit  to  you  later  the  actual  decrees  made 
by  Dail  Eireann.     (Continues  reading)  : 

"The  Minister  of  Agriculture  has  organized  a  Land  Bank  to  finance 
the  agricultural  industry  of  the  country.  Through  the  agency  of  this 
bank  several  large  grass  ranches  have  been  divided  into  economic 
holdings,  and  allotted  to  farmers  and  laborers  cooperatively  organ- 
ized. The  Ministry  actively  aided  the  Director  of  Forestry  in  insti- 
tuting an  Arbor  Day  movement  for  the  planting  of  waste  lands 
throughout  the  country.  The  Minister  for  Home  Affairs  has  organ- 
ized a  national  judiciary, — civil  and  criminal  courts,  the  only  courts, 
except  the  British  courts-martial,  now  functioning  in  Ireland;  and  a 
police  court.  The  rulings  of  the  Land  Courts  on  the  intricate  ques- 
tions arising  out  of  the  land  problem  have  brought  about  a  cessation 
of  the  land  unrest  endemic  in  certain  parts  of  Ireland  in  recent  years. 
The  Department  of  Education  is  promoting  a  general  scheme  of 
national  education,  and  has  taken  over,  and  now  directly  controls, 
certain  technical  and  other  educational  institutions. 

"The  Fisheries  Department  is  attending  to  the  special  needs  of  the 
fishing  industry.  A  chain  of  cooperative  societies  has  been  formed 
amongst  deep-sea  fishermen,  and  the  Department  is  aiding  these  socie- 
ties financially  to  secure  motor-driven  boats,  and  essential  equipment. 
Its  inspectors  see  that  the  necessary  technical  knowledge  is  made 
available  for  those  employed  in  the  curing  and  marketing  of  the  fish. 
The  other  Departments  similarly  promote  the  national  interests  di- 
rectly in  their  charge,  working  in  close  association  with  all  interested 
in  their  respective  spheres. 


973 

CONSTRUCTIVE  LEGISLATIVE  AND  JUDICIAL 
FUNCTIONS 

"The  functioning'  of  the  Republican  Government  is  seen  in  its  legis- 
lative acts  and  in  the  obedience  rendered  to  them.  Both  the  English 
Government,  through  Dublin  Castle,  and  the  Irish  Republican  Legis- 
lature are  issuing  laws  and  decrees.  But  the  laws  and  regulations 
of  Dublin  Castle  are  purely  repressive  and  destructive,  and  are  prin- 
cipally honored  in  the  breach  ;  whereas  the  laws  of  the  Irish  Legisla- 
ture are  constructive  and  are  observed.  One  hundred  fifty  thousand 
soldiers  cannot  enforce  English  laws  upon  an  unwilling  population, 
whereas  the  force  of  public  opinion  has  served  to  obtain  a  nearly  full 
measure  of  obedience   for   Ireland's  own   laws. 

"The  administration  of  justice  and  the  maintenance  of  civil  order 
is  another  test  of  actual  government.  That  Irish  courts  administer 
justice  to  the  practical  exclusion  of  the  English  courts  is  now  a 
matter  of  universal  knowledge.  When  the  Lord  Mayor  of  Cork, 
now  dead  in  an  English  jail,  was  arrested,  he  was  presiding  at  a 
court  of  the  Republic  adjudicating  in  a  case  in  which  an  English 
insurance  company  was   the   plaintiff. 

BRITISH  GOVERNMENT  IN  IRELAND  "ALMOST 

NON-EXISTENT" 

"Thus  the  Government  of  the  Republic  is  functioning,  and  claims 
recognition  not  only  because  it  is  the  legitimate  and  rightful  govern- 
ment of  the  Irish  people,  the  only  government  with  the  democratic 
sanction  of  the  consent  of  the  governed,  but  also  because  it  is  also 
the  actual  government  in  Ireland.  The  rival  British  Government  in 
Ireland  has  been  declared,  even  by  Lord  Grey,  to  be  almost  'non- 
existent.' Referring  to  the  'helplessness'  of  the  British  authority  in 
Ireland,  he  said  recently  that  British  authority  'has  apparently 
ceased.'  " 

REPUBLICAN  GOVERNMENT  DEVELOPS  MEAT- 
PACKING   INDUSTRY 

In  amplification  of  that  little  cursory  statement,  I  would  like  to 
supplement  it  very  briefly  with  some  of  these  things.  I  referred, 
earlier  in  my  remarks,  to  the  non-economic  traffic  in  live  stock.  The 
Director  of  Trade  and  Commerce  has  taken  measures  to  organize 
and  establish  on  cooperative  lines  a  large  meat-dressing  plant  at 
Waterford.  The  farmers  of  the  district  abutting  on  that  city  and 
port  have  already  subscribed  almost  one  and  one-half  million  dollars 
cooperatively  for  that  plant.  We  had  here  in  this  country  within 
the  past  two  months  a  delegation  from  that  cooperative  committee  at 
Waterford  interviewing  possible  managers  of  the  plant,  and  looking 
up  architects  and  experts  in  the  laying  out  of  meat  packing  plants. 
Everything  is  in  order  to  erect  that  large  meat  dressing  plant  at 
Waterford,  and  alongside  of  it  to  have  a  tanning  industry  to  treat  the 
hides,  and  a  fertilizer  plant  to  deal  with  the  offals.  This  is  one  of 
the  schemes  undertaken  by  the  Republican  Government  for  the  de- 
velopment of  Ireland.1 


1  This   promising  undertaking  has   since   been   thwarted   by   the   British 
forces  in  Ireland.     See  evidence,  pp.  985-989, 


974 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  Speaking  of  meats,  did  the  Republi- 
can Government  put  an  embargo  on  the  shipment  of  meats  and  pork 
products?     A.     Yes,  at  one  time  during  the  war. 

Q.     Which  was  effective?     A.     It  was  effective. 

DECREE  OF  REPUBLICAN  GOVERNMENT  STOPS 
LAND  LITIGATION 

Now,  as  to  the  official  decrees  of  the  Dail.  You  may  be  interested 
to  see  one  of  the  official  acts  of  the  Dail.  It  is  bi-lingual,  in  Irish 
and  in  English.  This  one  here  is  in  regard  to  the  land  question.  It 
is  rather  interesting.  It  is  headed,  "Proclamation.  Claims  to  Land: 
Dairy,  Agricultural,  and  Residential  Holdings."      (Reading)  : 

"Whereas,  it  has  come  to  our  knowledge  that  claims  have  been  and 
are  being  made  in  various  parts  of  the  country  to  farms  and  holdings 
which  are  being  used  and  worked  by  the  occupiers  as  dairy,  agricul- 
tural, and  residential  holdings,  and  that  such  claims  are  being  based 
on  the  assertion  that  the  claimants  or  their  ancestors  were  formerly 
in  occupation  of  the  property  so  claimed;  and 

"Whereas,  these  claims  are,  for  the  most  part,  of  old  date;  and 
while  many  of  them  may  be  well  founded,  others  seem  to  be  of  a 
frivolous  nature,  and  are  put  forward  in  the  hope  of  intimidating 
the  present  occupiers ; 

"Now  it  is  decreed  by  Dail  Eireann  in  session  assembled  : 

"(1)  That  the  present  time,  when  the  Irish  people  are  locked  in 
a  life-and-death  struggle  with  their  traditional  enemy,  is  ill-chosen  for 
the  stirring  up  of  strife  amongst  our  fellow-countrymen;  and  that 
all  our  energies  must  be,  directed  towards  the  clearing  out,  not  the 
occupier  of  this  or  that  piece  of  land,  but  the  foreign  invader  of  our 
country  ; 

"(2)  That  pending  the  international  recognition  of  the  Republic. 
no  claims  of  the  kind  referred  to  shall  be  heard  or  determined  by  the 
courts  of  the  Republic  unless  by  written  license  of  the  Minister  for 
Home  Affairs  ; 

"(3)  That  in  the  meanwhile  claimants  may  file  particulars  of 
their  claims  with  the  Registrar  of  the  District  Court  in  which  the 
property  is  situate. 

"And  it  is  further  decreed  that  any  person  or  persons  who  persists 
or  persist  in  pressing  forward  a  disputed  claim  of  the  nature  above 
referred  to  shall  do  so  in  the  knowledge  that  such  action  is  a  breach 
of  this  Decree; 

"And  it  is  ordered  that  the  forces  of  the  Republic  be  used  to  protect 
the  citizens  against  the  adoption  of  high-handed  methods  by  any  such 
person   or   persons. 

"By  order  of  Dail  Eireann,  this  29th  day  of  June,  1920." 

REPUBLICAN    GOVERNMENT    RESTRICTS 
EMIGRATION 
The  Witness:  Here  is  an  order  restricting  emigration  from  Ire- 
land;  and  this  also  shows  you  the  outlook  of  the  men  at  home. 

(Reading)  : 


975 


"PROCLAMATION:    EMIGRATION    FROM    IRELAND 

"Whereas,  it  has  come  to  our  knowledge  that  a  number  of  men  oi 
military  age  and  other  citizens  of  the  Republic  are  leaving  Ireland;  and 

"Whereas,  Ireland  cannot  spare  any  of  her  children  at  the  present 
jucture; 

"Now  it  is  hereby  ordered  that  after  the  date  of  this  Proclamation 
no  citizen  of  the  Irish  Republic  shall  be  permitted  to  leave  Ireland 
for  the  purpose  of  settling  abroad  unless  with  the  written  sanction 
of  the  Government  of  the  Republic.  Applications  for  permits  must 
be  made  to  the  Secretary  of  State  for  Home  Affairs.  Each  applica- 
tion must  set  out:  (1)  name  of  applicant;  (2)  his  or  her  address; 
(3)  place  of  birth;  (4)  date  of  birth;  (5)  date  of  proposed  departure; 
(6)  country  of  destination;  (7)  proposed  period  of  absence;  (8)  rea- 
sons for  emigrating.  Every  application  must  be  authenticated  by  a 
justice  and  the  Registrar  of  the  District  Court  for  the  district  in 
which  the  applicant  resides.  Applications  by  soldiers  of  the  Irish 
Republican  Army  should  set  out  particulars  of  their  companies,  bat- 
talions, and  brigades,  and  should  be  authenticated  and  recommended 
by  the  Brigade  Commandant  in  each  case.  All  applications  must  be 
accompanied  by  a  certificate  of  the  birth  or  baptism  of  the  applicant. 

"By  order  of  Dail  Eireann  this  24th  day  of  July,  1920." 

The  Witness:  Lord  French  proclaimed  that  there  are  200.000  too 
many  young  men  in  Ireland  and  suggested  emigration  as  a  cure. 
Dail  Eireann  decreed  that  these  young  men  must  remain  in  Ireland. 


REPUBLICAN    DECREES    FOR    CONSERVATION 
AND  DEVELOPMENT  OF  IRISH  RESOURCES 

I  will  give  the  names  of  just  a  few  additional  decrees:  A  Decree 
for  a  National  Arbor  Day  for  Afforestation;  Fisheries:  Financial 
Assistance,  and  the  Appointment  of  a  National  Inspector  of  Fish- 
eries; the  establishment  of  a  National  Civil  Service,  embracing  em- 
ployes of  all  elected  bodies.  Down  to  very  recently,  the  brains  of 
Ireland  was  going  into  the  English  civil  service;  the  young  men  who 
passed  through  the  secondary  schools  in  Ireland  and  who  could  not 
go  on  to  the  university  to  get  a  profession  were  recruited  for  the 
English  civil  service,  and  not  only  occupied  positions  in  Ireland,  but 
in  England,  Egypt,  and  India.  And  we  felt  that  Irish  brains  should 
be  used,  not  for  the  buttressing  up  of  the  British  Empire,  but  for  the 
building  up  of  Ireland.  We  are  endeavoring  to  provide  an  incentive 
whereby  the  youth  of  Ireland  will  not  leave  the  country,  but  will 
have  ambition  to  remain  in  their  own  country.  A  Commission  of  In- 
quiry to  inquire  into  the  industrial  resources  of  the  country,  to  find 
out  the  potentialities  and  possibilities  of  development,  was  appointed 
by  Dail  Eireann.  From  the  date  it  began  until  its  recent  sittings,  the 
British  Government  used  every  effort  to  prevent  its  holding  public 


976 

sessions.  They  took  possession  of  certain  of  its  members  physically, 
so  that  they  could  not  attend  meetings.  They  have  occupied  build- 
ings where  it  was  to  sit.  They  have  seized  its  records.  Yet  despite 
all  this,  the  Commission  has  gone  on  the  even  tenor  of  its  way  and 
taken  surveys  of  the  industrial  resources  of  the  country.  And  I  have 
in  my  hand  the  first  survey  it  has  published. 

Chairman  Wood:  We  should  be  glad  to  have  it. 

The  Witness:  I  can  leave  it  with  you.  I  want  to  give  you  a  decree 
on  housing  and  fixing  a  minimum  rent. 

Q.     Commissioner  Maurer :  You  mean  a  decree  on  maximum  rent. 

JUDICIARY  AND  REVENUE  DEPARTMENTS 
ESTABLISHED 

A.  I  will  come  across  the  actual  decree  in  a  moment.  (Reading 
titles  of  decrees)  :  "That  courts  of  Justice  and  Equity  be  estab- 
lished; and  that  the  Ministry  be  empowered  when  they  deem  fit  to 
establish  courts  having  criminal  jurisdiction";  "That  a  Department 
for  the  collection  of  Income  Tax  be  instituted  by  Dail  Eireann,  and 
that  all  persons  who  pay  the  income  tax  to  that  Department  which 
otherwise  they  would  pay  to  the  British  Government  be  indemnified 
against  losses  caused  by  distraint  or  otherwise;  in  agreed  circum- 
stances discretionary  power  being  given  to  the  Dail  Income  Tax  De- 
partment to  refuse  such  taxes  as  it  deems  inadvisable  to  accept." 
"That  a  commission  of  experts  be  set  up  to  inquire  into  the  possi- 
bility of  carrying  on  local  administration  without  financial  aid  from 
the  English  Government,  to  report  as  to  reforms  and  economies  in 
local  administration,  and  particularly  in  the  Poor  Law  system,  that 
would  enable  councils  to  meet  altered  financial  conditions."  That, 
of  course,  has  to  do  with  the  withholding  of  grants  by  the  English 
Local  Government  Board.  This  is  a  decree  that  the  imposition  of 
political  or  religious  tests  as  a  condition  of  industrial  employment 
in  Ireland  is  declared  illegal,  and  that  action  be  taken  to  prevent 
such  tests  being  imposed. 

DECREE    RESTRICTING   INCREASE    OF   RENT 

And  this  is  the  decree  restricting  increase,  of  rent.  (Reading 
decree)  : 

"No  landlord  of  any  dwelling  house  shall  compel  a  tenant  to  quit 
his  holding  or  terminate  or  refuse  to  renew  the  tenancy  of  any  tenant 
if  the  tenant  shall  pay  a  reasonable  increase  of  rent.  A  'reasonable 
increase  of  rent'  shall  mean  an  amount  calculated  at  the  rate  of  6  per 
cent,  per  annum  on  the  expenditure  on  the  improvement  or  structural 
alteration  of  the  dwelling  house,  not  including  expenditure  on  decora- 
tion or  repairs ;  and  in  addition  an  increase  in  the  amount  payable  by 


977 

the  landlord  in  respect  of  rates  over  the  rates  paid  in  respect  of  the 
corresponding  period  which  included  the  third  of  August,  1914.  In 
further  addition  where  the  landlord  is  responsible  for  the  whole  of 
the  external  and  sanitary  repairs,  an  amount  not  exceeding  15  per 
cent,  on  the  net  rent.  The  expression  'net  rent'  means,  where  the 
tenant  paid  the  rates,  the  rent  at  which  the  premises  were  let  on  the 
third  of  August,  1914;  or  where  the  premises  were  not  let  on  that 
date,  the  rent  at  which  they  were  last  let  before  that  date ;  or  in  the 
case  of  premises  first  let  after  said  date,  the  rent  at  which  they  were 
first  let ;  and  where  the  landlord  paid  the  rates,  the  said  rent  less  the 
amount  of  such  rates. 

"That  pending  further  legislation,  the  Secretary  of  State  for  Home 
Affairs,  with  the  approval  of  the  Ministry,  be  empowered  to  make 
such  regulations  as  the  Ministry  shall  deem  fit  to  carry  out  the  pro- 
visions of  this  decree." 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  How  do  you  carry  out  such  legisla- 
tion, solely  by  moral  pressure?  A.  You  forget,  sir,  that  we  have 
our  courts  functioning. 

Q.  And  you  have  your  police  force?  A.  Our  police  force  and 
our  local  authorities. 

Q.  Senator  Norris:  But  your  courts  operate  in  secret.  A. 
Chairman  Wood:  But  they  have  the  force  of  public  opinion  behind 
them.  They  have  the  popular  support  of  almost  90  per  cent,  of  the 
people. 

Q.  Commissioner  Thomas:  There  is  British  machinery  left,  is 
there  not?     A.     0,  yes,  if  you  want  to  employ  it. 

Q.  Well,  suppose  I  was  hard-hearted,  as  some  landlords  are,  and 
went  to  the  British  courts  and  got  a  decree  for  an  increase  of  rent. 
A.  That  would  be  an  act  of  treason  to  the  Republic,  and  would  be 
punished  accordingly. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  It  is  not  a  bad  act.  I  think  we  shall 
have  to  get  something  of  that  kind. 

Commissioner  Howe:  In  Pennsylvania? 

Commissioner  Maurer:  Yes. 

RELIGIOUS  LEGISLATION  PROHIBITED 

The  Witness:  This  is  a  decree  forbidding  religious  legislation. 

"It  is  hereby  decreed  that  the  Ministry  of  Home  Affairs  be  em- 
powered to  make  orders  from  time  to  time  declaring  that  any  par- 
ticular act  or  acts  of  the  British  Parliament  or  orders  thereunder,  or 
any  parts  of  such  acts  or  orders,  being  clearly  motivated  by  a  religious 
or  political  animosity  to  the  Irish  people,  or  repugnant  to  the  Repub- 
lican Government  or  to  Irish  ideals,  shall  not  be  recognized  by  the 
Irish  Republic,  and  shall  not  be  applied  in  the  law  courts  of  the 
Republic  ;  and  that  on  making  any  such  order  the  Ministry  may  make 
any  consequential  orders  which  may  be  deemed  necessary  or  ex- 
pedient." 

NATIONAL  ECONOMIC  COUNCIL  FORMED 

The  Witness:  Here  is  the  formulation  by  decree  of  a  National 
Economic   Council   consisting   of  nominated   and  elected   elements; 


978 

elected  elements  comprising  representatives  of  various  organized 
economic  interests,  such  as  Labor,  Agriculture  (Farmers'  Unions, 
etc. ) ,  Cooperative  Societies,  and  representatives  of  some  of  the  local 
public  bodies.  The  duties  of  the  Council  shall  be  to  examine  and 
report  on  all  current  economic  questions  referred  to  it  by  the  Dail 
or  the  Cabinet,  and  generally  to  advise  the  Republican  Government 
in  regard  to  economic  policy;  and  by  providing  a  common  ground 
for  representatives  of  various  economic  interests,  and  by  promoting 
negotiations  between  them,  to  secure  agreements  and  joint  action 
which  will  safeguard  national  interests. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  That  is  pretty  good. 

The  Witness:  And  here  is  a  decree  setting  up  a  National  Land 
Commission  for  the  purpose  of  carrying  the  land  settlement  schemes 
of  the  Dail  into  effect. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  I  just  want  to  ask  a  question  after  lis- 
tening to  your  laws  and  regulations.  You  said  something  about 
your  having  issued  a  decree  that  there  should  be  no  young  men  leave 
Ireland.  That  does  not  mean  that  no  one  can  get  into  Ireland,  if 
there  is  a  fellow  like  myself,  about  my  age,  that  would  want  to  get 
there?  I  think  it  would  be  a  pretty  good  country  to  go  to  after 
awhile.  A.  If  you  will  come  to  me,  you  will  have  no  difficulty  in 
arranging  your  passport  after  awhile. 

Commissioner  Thomas:  He  might  even  show  you  the  way  to  get 
there. 

The  Witness:  If  there  is  any  other  information  I  can  give  you 
gentlemen,  I  should  be  glad  to  give  it. 

Chairman  Wood:  We  appreciate  it  very  much.  And  if  at  any 
future  time  we  need  further  information  along  this  line,  we  want  to 
call  on  you. 

The  Commission  will  adjourn  until  tomorrow  at  ten  o'clock. 

(Adjournment  5:50  P.  M.) 


SIXTH  HEARINGS 

ON   CONDITIONS   IN   IRELAND 

Session  Two 

Before  the  Commission  sitting  in  the  Hotel  LaFavette.  Washington, 
D.  C,  Friday,  January  21,  1921.     9:50  A.  M. 

Commissioner  Addams  (presiding  I  :  We  will  open  our  session  ihis 
morning.     Our  first  witness  is  Miss  Louie  Bennett,  of  Ireland. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MISS  LOUIE  BENNETT 

Q.  Miss  Bennett,  will  you  please  give  your  name  and  address? 
A.  My  name  is  Louie  Bennett.  I  live  ten  miles  out  of  Dublin.  I 
work  in  Dublin. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation,  Miss  Bennett?  A.  I  am  secretary 
of  the  Irish  Women  Workers'  LJnion. 

Q.  We  have  asked  the  witnesses  their  religion.  I  don't  know  why 
we  have  fallen  into  that  practice.     What  is  yours?      A.     Protestant. 

Q.  And  your  family  has  been  a  Protestant  family?  A.  Yes,  a 
Protestant  family,  and  Unionists. 

TWO   LINES  OF  CONFLICT 

Q.  Now,  Miss  Bennett,  you  know  the  purpose  of  our  inquiry, 
and  we  want  to  get  the  situation  as  clearly  as  possible  before  us. 
And  if  you  will,  just  give  us  the  important  facts  about  the  situation. 
A.  I  represent,  as  you  know,  Miss  Addams,  the  Irish  Women's  Inter- 
national League,  which  is  fundamentally  a  pacifist  organization. 
And  it  is  the  desire  of  my  Committee  that  we  lay  before  you  and 
place  emphasis  particularly  on  the  efforts  which  the  Irish  people 
have  made  to  develop  their  own  national  life  and  to  follow  their  own 
government,  Dail  Eireann,  rather  than  to  concentrate  on  any  of  the 
physical  force  activities  which  have  taken  place  in  Ireland.  You 
see,  there  are  going  on  at  the  present  time  two  lines  of  conflict:  there 
is  the  conflict  between  the  Irish  Government,  the  Dail.  and  the 
British  Government,  along  what  one  might  call  civil  lines:  and 
there  is  also  the  physical  conflict,  the  conflict  between  the  two 
armies.  And  we  thought  it  would  be  interesting  to  lay  before  your 
Commission  facts  in  regard  to  the  way  in  which  the  British  Govern- 
ment have  tried  to  block  all  the  efforts  of  the  Irish  to  establish  or 
carry  on  industry,  and  to  carry  on  their  own  local  councils — the 
administration  of  their  county  and  local  councils,  and  to  carry  on 
their  own  courts — courts  of  law  as  established  bv  the  Dail. 

979 


980 

THE  IRISH   INDUSTRIAL  INQUIRY   COMMISSION 

If  the  Commission  wish,  I  propose  to  deal  with  those  subjects,  and 
to  take  up  first  the  industrial  question.  And  I  had  given  me  by 
Mr.  Darrell  Figgis,  who  is  Minister  for  Industry  in  the  Dail — the 
Irish  Parliament,  I  had  given  me  by  him  a  statement  with  regard  to 
his  Commission,  the  Industrial  Inquiry  Commission  which  he  or- 
ganized— an  inquiry  into  the  industrial  conditions  and  resources  of 
Ireland.     And  if  the  Commission  wish,  I  would  read  that  statement. 

Commissioner  Addams:  We  would  be  very  glad  to  have  it. 

The  Witness  (Reading)  : 

"Notes  Respecting  the  Work  of  the  Commission  of  Inquiry  into 
the  Resources  and  Industries  of  Ireland,  and  the 
Attempts  to  Hinder  This  Work. 
"The  Commission  was  established  in  September,   1919,  by  the  Gov- 
ernment of  Ireland  with  the  following  terms  of  reference: 

"  'To  inquire  into  the  national  resources  and  the  present  condi- 
tion of  manufacture  and  production,  and  industries  in  Ireland,  and 
to  consider  and  report  by  what  means  these  natural  resources  may 
be  more  fully  developed,  and  how  these  industries  may  be  encour- 
aged and  extended.' 
"It  will  be  seen  that  the  work  consigned  to  the  Commission  was  of 
great  magnitude  and  importance.     Men  representative  of  science,  in- 
dustry, as  well  as  men  not  immediately  concerned  either  with  industry 
or  science  but  of  public  standing,  were  called  together  to  undertake 
this   work.     The   invitations   extended   took   cognizance   only   of   their 
qualifications   for  this  work,  and  made  no  inquiry  as  to  what  might 
be  their  political  opinions.     It  therefore  happened  that  the  personnel 
of    the    Commission    of    Inquiry    comprised    men    representing    many 
shades   and  colors  of  political  thought.     Mr.   Darrell   Figgis   was   in- 
vited to  undertake  the  office  of  secretary,  and  accepted  the  invitation. 

SPECIAL  COMMITTEES  ON  FOOD  AND  POWER 

"At  its  first  meeting,  held  in  the  Mansion  House,  Dublin,  it  was 
recognized  that  the  task  outlined  was  of  considerable  magnitude.  It 
was  indeed  a  task  such  as  had  not  been  committed  to  any  single  body 
in  any  state  among  the  nations  of  the  world ;  and  the  complexity  of 
the  subjects  needing  inquiry  was  added  to  by  the  systematic  neglect 
of  industrial  inquiry  by  the  usurping  government  of  the  country.  The 
Commission,  therefore,  decided  to  approach  its  inquiry  in  detail ;  de- 
cided to  set  aside  certain  subjects  for  later  examination;  and  at  once 
to  prosecute  inquiries  into  the  two  subjects  of  outstanding  importance. 
The  two  subjects  so  outlined  were  food  and  power.  Special  com- 
mittees were  appointed  to  deal  with  each  of  these  two  subjects.  Hugh 
Ryan,  D.  S.  C,  Professor  of  Chemistry  at  the  National  University, 
Dublin,  was  appointed  chairman  of  the  Power  Committee.  Thomas 
Johnson,  Secretary  of  the  Irish  Trades  Congress,  was  appointed  chair- 
man of  the  Food  Committee.  These  two  committees  further  sub- 
divided their  subjects.  The  Food  Committee  decided  to  deal  im- 
mediately with  Milk  and  Milk  Products,  Meat  and  Meat  Products, 
and  Fisheries,  seaboard  and  inland;  and  to  leave  certain  other  subjects 
of  its  inquiry  for  later  investigations.  The  Power  Committee  divided 
its  subjects  according  to  the  commodities  from  which  power  may  be 
derived,  whether  coal,  peat,   industrial  alcohol,  or  water. 

"At   the  end  of  that  year  the   Commission   began  to  hear  evidence 


981 


in  public  session  on  each  of  the  above  subjects  at  the  City  Hall, 
Dublin.  It  was  rumored  that  the  Crown  Forces  would  attempt  arbi- 
trarily to  prevent  these  public  sessions.  Steps  were  therefore  taken 
to  secure  necessary  publicity  in  other  countries  as  to  such  action,  and 
the  result  was  that  these  public  sessions  were  held  without  interfer- 
ence. 

CROWN  FORCES  SEEK  TO  SUPPRESS  COMMISSION 

"Early  the  following  year  the  Commission  moved  down  to  the  City 
of  Cork  to  continue  its  public  sessions  there.  On  its  arrival  in  that 
city  the  secretary  was  informed  that  sessions,  whether  public  or  pri- 
vate, of  the  Commission  of  Inquiry  would  not  be  permitted,  and 
would  be  broken  up  by  force  if  necessary.  The  secretary  replied  that 
he  could  not  receive  any  verbal  message  of  this  kind,  and  requested 
that  the  information  be  given  him  in  writing  signed  by  a  proper 
authority,  when  he  would  take  due  cognizance  of  it.  This  request 
was  refused.  The  Lord  Mayor  and  the  Corporation  of  the  city  had 
invited  the  Commission  of  Inquiry  to  hold  its  session  in  the  Council 
Chamber  of  the  City  Hall.  On  proceeding  to  the  City  Hall  the  fol- 
lowing morning,  however,  this  building  was  found  in  possession  of 
the  Crown  Forces,  armed  with  carbines,  who  violently  prevented  both 
commissioners  and  witnesses  entering  its  precincts.  Arrangements, 
however,  had  been  made  in  view  of  this  possibility,  and  the  Commis- 
sion, together  with  its  witnesses,  who  included  some  of  the  most 
prominent  citizens  of  the  city,  proceeded  to  the  School  of  Art.  It 
sat  in  session  there  during  the  morning.  During  this  session  police 
forces  entered  and  attempted  to  eject  the  Commission.  The  commis- 
sioners refused  to  withdraw,  and  the  Crown  Forces  withdrew.  On  its 
return  to  the  School  of  Art  it  found  this  building  also  occupied  by 
Crown  Forces.  It  then  proceeded  with  its  witnesses  to  the  Council 
Chamber  of  the  County  Council  at  the  Court  House,  and  sat  in  session 
there  until  a  late  hour  at  night.  Crown  Forces  attempted  to  enter  this 
Council  Chamber,  but,  witnesses  all  being  present,  the  precaution  had 
been  taken  of  bolting  and  barring  the  doors,  and  therefore  it  was 
possible  to  complete  this  session. 

"The  following  morning  advice  was  brought  to  the  secretary  that 
every  public  building  in  the  city  was  occupied  by  Crown  Forces. 
Witnesses  were,  therefore,  brought  into  the  hotel,  and  the  session 
proceeded  in  the  Commission's  own  private  room  at  the  hotel.  In 
the  early  afternoon,  however,  the  manager  of  the  hotel  informed  the 
secretary  that  the  local  commander  of  the  Crown  Forces  had  just 
informed  him  that  if  the  Commission  were  permitted  by  him  to  con- 
tinue any  longer  with  its  session,  he  would  break  into  the  hotel  and 
break  up  the  session  by  force.  The  manager  therefore  requested  the 
secretary  of  the  Commission  to  suspend  its  session,  as  such  a  proceed- 
ing would  cause  great  inconvenience  to  his  guests.  The  commis- 
sioners, therefore,  accompanied  still  by  their  witnesses,  proceeded  by 
a  back  way  to  a  private  house,  and  there  completed  its  day's  work 
while  the  Crown  Forces  were  hunting  for  it  through  the  city." 

Q.  Major  Newman:  May.  I  interrupt  you  just  a  moment.  Miss 
Bennett?  What  was  the  date  of  this  inquiry?  A.  September, 
1919.     It  was  on,  of  course,  for  a  considerable  time. 

Q.  And  just  what  was  the  Commission?  A.  An  inquiry  into 
the  industrial  resources  of  Ireland. 

Q.  Yes,  but  the  Commission  had  its  origin — it  was  appointed  by 
whom.  A.  By  the  Dail  Eireann  Parliament.  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis, 
the  secretary  of  the  Commission,  is  a  member  of  the  Dail.  (Con- 
tinues reading)  : 


982 

"The  following  morning  the  Commission  proceeded  up  a  hack  way 
into  the  City  Hall.  Its  witnesses  on  this  occasion  were  to  be  the 
City  Engineer  and  the  Professor  of  Engineering  at  Cork  University. 
The  session  was  opened,  and  it  continued  for  nearly  an  hour  before 
the  Crown  Forces  discovered  that  they  had  been  outwitted.  They 
accordingly  broke  violently  into  the  City  Hall  and  ejected  each  mem- 
ber of  the  Commission  by  force  from  the  building.  This  section  of 
its  evidence  had,  therefore,  to  be  completed  at  a  later  date  in  the 
City  of  Dublin.  For  it  is  to  be  observed  that  the  Commission  has 
never  in  one  single  instance  deflected  from  the  work  it  has  outlined 
for  itself,  but  has,  with  no  attempt  at  furtive  procedure,  completed 
each  part  of  the  work  scheduled  by  its  committees. 

"The'  same  interference  was  encountered  in  the  City  of  Limerick. 
The  Mayor  of  this  city  is  himself  a  member  of  the  Commission.  He, 
in  his  mayoral  chain  of  office,  was  to  have  presided  on  this  occasion, 
but  was,  with  his  fellow  commissioners,  excluded  from  his  own  City 
Hall.  Nevertheless,  at  Limerick  also  the  Commission  completed  every 
part  of  the,  work  it  had  undertaken  to  do  in  that  city. 

"These  are  only  two  instances  of  the  attempt  by  the  usurping  gov- 
ernment of  Ireland  to  frustrate  and  bring  to  naught  a  purely  indus- 
trial and  scientific  inquiry.  On  several  occasions  the  Commission  has 
been  invited  to  address  the  County  Councils  of  the  country  with  re- 
gard to  its  work.  Such  meetings  have  been  publicly  prohibited.  On 
one  such  occasion  it  happened  that  the  secretary  of  the  Commission 
came  in  actual  danger  of  his  life  because  of  an  inquiry  into  the  coal 
resources  of  one  of  the  coalfields  of  Ireland  concerning  which  the 
County  Council,  in  whose  administrative  area  this  field  occurred,  had 
requested  to  know  the  result  of  the  special  inquiries  the  Commission 
had  conducted  as  to  this  field. 

"Recently,  at  the  end  of  November,  1920,  a  delegation  from  the 
Commission  proceeded  to  Buncrana.  in  the  north  of  Ireland,  to  hear 
evidence  with  regard  to  fisheries.  Arrangements  had  been  made  for 
this  evidence  to  be  heard  in  the  Town  Hall.  On  the  morning  of  the 
day,  the  Town  Hall  was  occupied  by  Crown  Forces,  and  the  Com- 
mission was  forcibly  prevented  from  entering.  It  happened  in  this 
case  that  the  leading  witness  was  politically  prejudiced  against  the 
Government  de  jure  of  the  country,  and  expressed  himself  warmly 
against  the  interference  with  such  an  inquiry.  Here  also  the  Commis- 
sion withdrew  to  its  private  hotel,  and  completed  all  its  arrangements 
as  scheduled  before  the  Crown  Forces  were  aware  of  what  was 
happening. 

WORK  ACHIEVED   BY   THE   COMMISSION 

"The  above  are  some  instances  of  the  persistent  attempt  by  the 
usurping  government  of  Ireland  to  frustrate  this  purely  industrial 
and  scientific  inquiry.  Nevertheless,  the  Commission  has  already 
published  an  interim  report  on  Milk  Production,  Volume  I  of  its 
Minutes  of  Evidence,  and  has  in  rapid  preparation  for  the  press  re- 
ports on  the  Coal  Resources  of  the  Country,  Industrial  Alcohol,  Meat, 
Fisheries,  and  Stud  Farms.  When  these  reports  are  completed,  other 
subjects  will  at  once  be  taken  in  hand." 

ATTEMPT  MADE  ON  SECRETARY'S  LIFE 

The  Witness:  With  regard  to  the  statement  here  of  the  secretary 
of  the  Commission,  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis,  being  in  danger  of  his  life 
on  one  occasion:  he  narrowly  escaped  hanging.  The  military  forces 
broke  in  on  the  meeting,  and  they  held  a  kind  of  mock  trial  of  Mr. 
Figgis.     Colonel  Moore  was  with  him,  and  Colonel  Moore  got  away. 


983 

And  they  decided  to  hang  him,  and  they  actually  sent  for  the  rope, 
and  the  rope  was  brought.  Meanwhile,  Colonel  Moore  had  got 
away  and  he  went  to  the  District  Inspector,  and  he  reported  to  the 
District  Inspector  that  in  his  opinion  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis  was  in 
danger  of  his  life  because  of  the  actions  of  those  soldiers.  And  the 
District  Inspector  went  down  and  stopped  it.  That  was  all  that 
saved  the  life  of  Darrell  Figgis. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  For  the  record,  Miss  Bennett,  who  was  Colonel 
Moore?  A.  Colonel  Moore  was  a  British  army  officer  in  his 
youth.  He  is  now  an  old  man  about  70  years  old.  I  judge.  He  used 
to  be  a  dominion  home  ruler,  a  Nationalist-,  but  he  has  gradually 
come  around  to  a  Sinn  Fein  position. 

Q.     Does  he  hold  a  public  office.     A.     No,  he  does  not. 

INQUIRY  ENLISTS  SUPPORT  OF  ALL  CLASSES 

Q.  There  is  just  another  point  in  that  which  might  be  made  more 
specific.  In  that  last  hearing  that  was  a  Unionist  witness,  was  it 
not,  who  was  about  to  testify?  He  was  prejudiced  against  the  exist- 
ing government?  A.  Yes,  he  was  prejudiced  against  the  de  jure 
government  of  the  country. 

Q.  But  that  means  that  he  was  a  Unionist  witness,  or  a  witness 
opposed  to  the  Republican  Government  in  the  country.  A.  Yes. 
That  inquiry  caused  a  great  deal  of  comment,  and  many  witnesses  of 
all  parties  appeared  before  it. 

Q.  The  testimony  has  not  at  all  been  confined  to  witnesses  of  the 
Irish  Republic?  A.  Not  at  all.  You  see,  the  industrial  resources 
interest  all  kinds  of  people.  They  wanted  to  make  it  as  broad  as 
possible,  and  they  had  all  kinds  of  witnesses  before  the  Commission. 
I  would  like  to  add  that  this  milk  report  was  especially  good,  and 
this  strange  situation  was  recorded:  that  this  report  w^as  sold  side 
by  side  with  the  English  Government  report  on  the  same  subject,  at 
a  shop  called  Ponsonby's  in  Dublin  where  Government  r-eports 
are  sold.  And  this  report,  because  of  the  enormous  demand  for  it. 
was  sold  side  by  side  with  the  British  Government  report. 

Q.  In  the  introduction,  Miss  Bennett,  it  was  said  that  this  Com- 
mission represented  all  shades  of  opinion.  Can  that  be  made  a  little 
more  specific?  Can  you  name  witnesses  who  were  not  sympathetic 
with  the  Irish  Republic?  A.  No.  I  cannot.  You  see.  I  did  not 
take  part  in  this  inquiry  at  all.  Friends  of  mine  did.  but  these 
friends  were  either  Nationalists  or  Sinn  Fein — you  understand  what 
I  mean  by  Nationalists — dominion  home  rulers? 

Q.  \es.  but  there  were  dominion  home  rulers  and  there  were 
Unionists  on  the  Commission?      A.      Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  The  personnel  of  the  Commission  itself.  I 
think  Mr.  Manly  meant, 


984 

The  Witness  (To  Mr.  Manly)  :  You  mean  the  Commission  itself? 

Mr.  Manly.  Yes.  A.  Oh,  no,  they  were  all  Sinn  Fein.  It  said 
in  the  introduction,  did  it  not,  that  all  shades  of  opinion  were  repre- 
sented in  the  inquiry? 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  I  thought  it  said  on  the  Commission.  A.  It 
says  (Reading)  :  "The  invitations  extended  took  cognizance  only  of 
their  qualifications  for  this  work,  and  made  no  inquiry  as  to  what 
might  be  their  political  opinions.  It  therefore  happened  that  the 
personnel  of  the  Commission  of  Inquiry  comprised  men  represent- 
ing many  shades  and  colors  of  political  thought."  Well,  yes,  that 
is  what  it  says. 

SECRETARY   OF   COMMISSION   "ON   THE   RUN" 

I  ought  to  explain  to  this  Commission  that  it  is  extremely  difficult 
to  get  in  touch  with  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis.  He  is  on  the  run.  I  tried 
to  get  in  touch  with  him,  and  a  friend  of  mine  did,  but  we  did  not 
succeed.  In  Dublin  today  it  is  extremely  difficult  to  get  in  touch 
with  people.  But  the  Government  has  allowed  the  offices  of  the 
Commission  to  remain  open.     That  has  not  been  interfered  with. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  Is  that  in  Dublin?     A.     Yes,  in  Dublin. 

Mr.  Manly:  But  the  Commissioners  are  on  the  run?  A.  Yes, 
that  is  it.  Mr.  Darrell  Figgis,  of  course,  goes  to  the  office.  He  goes 
back  and  forth,  and  it  is  very  hard  to  find  him. 

SUCCESS  BEGETS  SUPPRESSION 

Q.  Major  Newman:  I  suppose  the  point  of  view  of  the  British 
was  that  this  was  an  activity  of  Dail  Eireann,  and  therefore  a  seces- 
sionist activity.  A.  Yes.  Our  experience  is  that  when  the  Crown 
forces  begin  to  see  something  succeeding,  they  suppress  it  then.  In 
its  initial  stages  they  did  not  take  much  notice  of  it.  A  witness  who 
was  testifying  before  that  Commission  in  its  earlier  stages,  a  friend 
of  mine,  said  that  word  was  sent  up  to  her  that  a  detective  was  stand- 
ing behind  her  taking  notes  on  what  she  said.  At  the  first  meeting 
in  Dublin  it  was  not  interfered  with.  But  when  it  came  to  be  suc- 
cessful and  prominent,  then  they  suppressed  its  activities.  And  it  is 
the  general  opinion  in  Ireland  that  the  British  Government  did  not 
wish  to  give  encouragement  to  any  industrial  activities  which  they 
did  not  undertake  themselves.  To  illustrate  that,  just  lately,  Decem- 
ber 11,  I  think  it  was,  Mr.  George  Russell — AE. — had  an  account 
of  an  attempt  to  establish  a  meat-packing  industry  in  Waterford.  I 
have  the  article  here  if  you  think  it  to  be  of  interest  to  the  Com- 
mission. You  see,  that  was  deliberately  blocked  by  the  British 
Government.  And  anything  of  that  sort  which  comes  from  the 
Irish  Homestead,  which  as  you  know  comes  from  Plunkett  House, 


985 

from  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society's  headquarters — 
anything  that  is  stated  in  the  Irish  Homestead  you  may  take  as  abso- 
lutely true.  Nothing  is  published  for  which  they  cannot  give  abso- 
lute and  accurate  evidence. 

NON-POLITICAL   CHARACTER   OF   IRISH   AGRI- 
CULTURAL  ORGANIZATION   SOCIETY 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Mr.  George  Russell  and  Sir  Horace 
Plunkett  work  together,  do  they?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  Irish  Home- 
stead is  the  official  paper  of  the  Agricultural  Society. 

Q.  Who  are  the  men  who  work  in  that  group?  A.  Mr.  R.  A. 
Anderson  is  the  secretary.  Mr.  Coffey  has  charge  of  the  library. 
and  then  there  is  a  second  secretary,  Mr.  North   I  ?  I . 

Q.  Plunkett  House  is  not  official;  it  is  not  connected  with  the 
Government  in  any  way?  A.  0,  no,  it  is  not  official;  purely  volun- 
tary. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  we  know  is  not  a  Sinn 
Feiner.  Are  the  other  men  associated  with  him  Sinn  Feiners?  A. 
Well,  some  are  and  some  are  not.  You  know  they  try  to  keep 
politics  entirely  out  of  their  work,  and  they  have  succeeded  very 
well,  because  they  have  men  of  all  shades  of  political  opinion  in  the 
cooperative  movement,  as  you  can  understand.  Unionists  in  tU" 
north  are  in  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society,  as  well  a? 
Nationalists  and  Republicans.  So  it  is  of  very  great  importance  to 
them  that  they  should  keep  politics  out  of  their  movement  altogether. 

BRITISH    GOVERNMENT    PREVENTS    IRISH 
COOPERATIVE  MEAT  INDUSTRY 

Q.  But  this  case  you  refer  to  is  of  an  industry  which  has  been 
prevented,  and  it  was  under  the  auspices  of  this  group?  A.  No, 
not  at  all. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  It  was  the  bacon  industry  that  you  were 
speaking  of,  was  it  not?  A.  Yes,  the  bacon  industry.  Please  stop 
me  if  you  think  it  is  not  of  interest  to  the  Commission.  This  relates 
to  the  American  Meat  Trust,  which  is  endeavoring  to  operate  in 
Ireland. 

Commissioner  Howe:  That  will  be  doubly  interesting. 

The  Witness:  This  is  an  editorial  by  George  Russell  in  the  Irish 
Homestead  for  December  11,  1920: 

"A  few  days  ago  alarm  was  expressed  officially  lest  the  American 
meat  trusts  should  win  complete  control  over  the  meat  supply  of  these 
islands.  The  alarm  was  natural.  A  trust  is  in  industry  what  im- 
perialism is  politically.  It  wants  absolute  control  within  its  own 
sphere,  just  as  the  Caesars,   Napoleons,  and  statesmen   with   their  am- 


986 


bilious  without  their  genius,  want  to  dominate  the  world.  The  nature 
of  a  trust  is  such  that  it  goes  on  buying  up,  amalgamating  with,  or 
knocking  out  rivals  until  there  is  nothing  in  its  own  line  of  business 
left  to  oppose   it." 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  There  are  no  trusts,  according  to  the 
American  meat  packers.  A.  Well,  perhaps  you  have  a  different 
term  for  what  we  call  trusts.      (Continues  reading)  : 

"The  alarm  felt  in  Great  Britain  about  American  meat  companies 
is  felt  in  America  about  British  oil  companies,  and  diplomatic  notes 
about  oil  concerns  are  already  being  exchanged,  the  diplomatists  being 
gingered  up  to  the  requisite  firmness  by  the  big  financiers  who  con- 
trol them." 

The  Witness:  Is  that  like  an  American  trust? 
Major  Newman:  We  recognize  that. 

Commissioner  Howe:  There  are  some  Americans  who  are  in  jail 
for  saying  that. 

The  Witness   (Continuing  reading)  : 

"We  expect  within  another  ten  years  the  big  financiers  of  the  old 
and  the  new  world  will  have  brought  about  another  world  war,  or  if 
they  do  not,  it  will  be  prevented  only  by  direct  intervention  of  Provi- 
dence softening  hearts,  which  nothing  except  a  miracle  could  restore  to 
humanity.  We  need  not  pursue  this  anticipation  further,  as  the 
horror  of  today  is  sufficient  for  itself.  But  since  official  alarm  has 
been  expressed  about  control  over  the  meat  supply  in  these  islands  by 
American  trusts,  we  will  tell  something  of  the  adventures  of  people 
in  Ireland  who  are  trying  to  establish  an  Irish  control  over  the  Irish 
meat  trade,  and  so  prevent  any  foreign  trust  coming  in.  We  refer  to 
Irish  Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  which,  as  our  readers  know,  is  a 
cooperative  society  registered  under  the  Industrial  and  Provident  So- 
cieties Act.  It  is  a  purely  business  organization,  non-political,  and 
non-sectarian.  It  is  being  promoted  by  a  committee  appointed  by  the 
cooperative  societies  and  farmers'  unions  in  the  counties  of  Cork, 
Waterford,  Kilkenny,  Carlow,  Tipperary,  and  Queen's  County.  The 
chairman  is  Sir  John  Keane,  Bart..  D.  S.  O.,  Lieutenant-Colonel  of 
His  Majesty's  Army,  and  who  was  a  member  of  the  War  Office  Cost- 
ings Committee.  Among  the  five  thousand  shareholders  admitted  to 
date  are  a  general,  several  colonels,  majors,  captains  in  the  British 
army,  together  with  justices  of  the  peace.  We  mention  these  facts 
to  show  that  the  organization  was  purely  business,  and  it  was  impos- 
sible to  suspect  the  chairman,  committee,  and  shareholders  were  en- 
gaged in  anything  but  a  commendable  business  enterprise,  and  not  the 
wildest  imagination  could  suppose  that  these  men  came  together  and 
had  subscribed  over  one  hundred  and  fifty  thousand  pounds  for  any 
purpose  inimical  to  the  British  Government.  The  sole  purpose  of  Irish 
Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  was  to  erect  a  meat  and  bacon  factory 
and  cold  store,  and  to  carry  on  under  better  conditions  the  trade  in 
meat  which  exists  between  Ireland  and  Great  Britain. 

POLICE    HOLD    UP,    BEAT,    AND    THREATEN    OR- 
GANIZERS FOR  COOPERATIVE  FACTORY 

"We  now  can  tell  the  difficulties  under  which  the  organization  of 
the  society  is  carried  on.  It  had  an  organizer  in  Cork,  one  in  Limerick, 
and  two  in  Tipperary.  In  August  the  Limerick  organizer,  with  the 
secretary  of  the  Farmers'  Union,  were  held  up  at  Askeaton  by  police- 
men, who  covered  them  with  revolvers,  searched  them,  and  took  all 


987 


the  documents  they  had.  Alter  examining  these  documents  they  were 
returned  to  the  two  men,  and  they  were  ordered  out  of  the  town. 
They  were  given  exactly  ten  minutes  to  clear  out,  and  they  were 
threatened  with  dire  penalties  if  they  were  caught  there  again.  When 
they  got  outside  the  town  darkness  came  on,  and  the  roads  were  so 
unsafe,  owing  to  the  danger  of  being  shot  by  military  patrols,  they 
returned  and  stayed  at  Askeaton  during  the  night.  On  the  next  day 
the  organizer  went  to  Robertstown  for  a  meeting,  and  while  he  was 
away  the  police  searched  the  town  and  threatened  the  landlady  if  the 
organizer  of  Irish  Cooperative  Meat  was  allowed  to  stay  ano'ther 
night  in  the  town  they  would  blow  her  house  up.  The  secretary  of 
the  Farmers'  Union  went  to  meetings  at  Pallaskenry  and  Ballysteen. 
He  went  from  these  to  his  own  house,  and  on  his  way  was  held  up 
by  men  in  uniform,  who  knocked  him  on  the  head,  broke  his  cycle, 
and  he  was  forced  to  walk  home  in  this  condition  eight  miles,  and 
was  in  bed  for  ten  days  from  the  effects  of  the  treatment  he  received. 
The  Limerick  organizer  reported  that  he  could  hold  no  further  meet- 
ings in  the  county.  The  Cork  organizer  reported  a  similar  state  of 
things  there-,  and  that  it  was  unsafe  for  him  to  travel  by  road.  At 
Castletownroche,  where  a  big  meeting  was  held,  the  farmers  decided 
each  to  take  shares  and  to  send  the  money  individually  instead  of 
hand  both  over  to  a  treasurer,  as  was  usual,  as  it  would  not  be  safe 
to  make  any  collection  of  money  in  the  district.  The  reason  given  for 
this  was  the  raids  by  military  and  the  allegations  that  sums  of  money 
were  taken  in  these  raids  from  persons  whose  houses  were  raided. 
The  burnings  of  cooperative  creameries  have  also  had  a  very  deter- 
rent effect  on  the  project.  The  organizer  reports:  'The  chief  reason 
which  I  find  keeps  people  from  investing  is  the  burning  of  creameries 
and  the  danger  of  something  similar  happening  in  Waterford  to  this 
project.'  Naturally,  when  cooperative  creameries  are  being  attacked, 
wrecked  and  burned,  when  factories  owned  by  English  companies  at 
Balbriggan,  and  other  factories  owned  by  persons  of  irreproachable 
politics  at  Mallow  and  elsewhere  were  burned,  even  the  possession  of 
a  cooperative  directorate  of  irreproachable  character  for  the  Irish 
Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  might  not  save  it.  We  quote  from  the 
letter  of  a  farmer  in  Waterford  to  show  how  this  feeling  operates: 
'Owing  to  the  destruction  of  cooperative  stores  and  creameries,  I  de- 
cline to  take  any  share  in  your  Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  and  T 
therefore  request  my  name  to  be  removed  off  the  list  of  shareholders.' 

BRITISH  GOVERNMENT  REFUSES  TO  PROTECT  A 
LEGITIMATE  IRISH  INDUSTRY 

"All  these  facts  were  communicated  to  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  In- 
order  of  the  committee,  and  he  was  asked  to  reply  definitely  to  the 
following  questions  :  'Is  the  policy  of  the  Government  opposed  to  the 
organization  of  these  cooperative  enterprises?  Will  the  Government 
give  an  undertaking  that  our  organizers  and  those  attending  meetings 
in  connection  with  this  project  will  not  be  interfered  with  in  future  by 
your  forces?  Is  it  possible,  should  the  factory  be  erected  and 
equipped,  to  get  any  reliable  guarantee  that  it  will  not  be  destroyed 
by  the  forces  of  the  Crown;  or,  if  destroyed  in  this  manner,  will  the 
Government  guarantee  adequate  compensation?'  To  this  reasonable 
request,  on  the  28th  September  a  reply  was  received  acknowledging 
the  letter  and  repudiating  on  the  part  of  the  Chief  Secretary  any  idea 
that  the  policy  of  the  Crown  was  in  any  way  antagonistic  to  the 
development  of  cooperative  enterprises,  and  a  further  communication 
was  promised  with  regard  to  the  several  points  raised  in  the  letter. 
On  the  30th  September  another  letter  was  addressed  to-  the  Chief 
Secretary  pointing  out  that  thousands  of  farmers  in  the  south  of 
Ireland  could  not  distinguish  between  the  Government  and  the  acts  of 


988 


its  servants,  and  when  cooperative  creameries  were  being  destroyed 
it  would  be  futile  to  risk  a  quarter  of  a  million  of  money  on  the 
Waterford  enterprise.  Along  with  this  letter  the  secretary  of  Irish 
Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  inclosed  letters,  one  from  the  Limerick 
organizer  resigning  his  position  because  he  could  not  incur  expenses 
without  showing  a  return,  mentioning  that  when  a  meeting  of  farmers 
around  Kilmallock  was  summoned  to  get  shares,  the  military  and 
police  scoured  round  the  country,  and  as  a  result  it  had  to  be  dropped. 
Farmers  told  him  they  would  gladly  take  one  hundred  shares,  but  it 
was  not  safe  to  invest  money  at  present  in  such  enterprises.  But  for 
the  interference  in  the  Kilmallock  meeting,  it  was  believed  5,000  shares 
would  have  been  taken  by  farmers  there  in  Irish  Cooperative  Meat, 
Limited.  On  the  30th  October  a  further  letter  was  addressed  to  the 
Chief  Secretary  asking  for  the  reply  promised  to  the  first  letter,  and 
also  mentioning  that  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  were  making  in- 
quiries as  to  societies  and  individuals  taking  shares  in  the  project, 
and  stating  that  if  information  of  that  kind  was  wanted  it  could 
always  be  had  at  the  office,  where  a  list  was  kept,  and  there  was 
nothing  secret  about  the  enterprise,  which  was  purely  a  business 
proposition.  And  this  was  the  reason  why  the  committee  pressed  for 
a  guarantee  that  the  project,  involving  an  outlay  of  £250,000,  would 
not  be  destroyed  by  forces  of  the  Crown,  or  if  destroyed,  adequate 
compensation  would  be  given.  To  this  letter,  on  the  2nd  November, 
the  following  official  reply  was  given:  'I  am  desired  by  the  Chief 
Secretary  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  30th  ultimo.' 
None  of  the  matters  dealt  with  in  the  first  or  succeeding  letters  were 
referred  to,  nor  was  the  promise  of  inquiry  or  reply  carried  out.  The 
last  fact  connected  with  this  effort  to  create  a  great  Irish  industry  is 
a  letter  from  the  Cork  organizer  stating  that  it  was  useless  for  him 
to  continue  his  work.  Nobody  would  come  to  meetings,  and  traveling 
was  dangerous  ;  farmers  saw  no  security  for  money  invested  in  any 
cooperative   enterprise. 

"We  recapituate  the  facts.  Here  is  a  great  Irish  industrial  enter- 
prise, with  every  prospect  of  success,  with  a  directorate  whose  political 
character  is  above  suspicion,  with  prominent  shareholders  who  are 
generals,  colonels,  and  others  holding  high  office  in  the  British  Army, 
and  they  cannot  get  from  the  Chief  Secretary  a  guarantee  that  if 
they  build  a  meat  factory,  bacon  factory,  and  cold  store  at  Waterford 
the  factory  will  not  be  burned  down  by  the  armed  forces  of  the 
Crown,  or  if  burned  down  that  adequate  compensation  will  be  paid. 
These  were  plain  questions  addressed  to  the  Chief  Secretary,  and  he 
obviously  finds  himself  unable  to  give  a  reply.  He  could,  probably, 
if  it  was  a  local  society  of  farmers,  indicate  that  it  was  composed 
of  persons  whose  politics  rendered  them  liable  to  suspicion,  and  gave 
them  such  a  public  warning  as  he  gave  at  Westminster,  that  any 
creamery  was  in  danger  if  its  manager  was  suspected  of  Sinn  Fein 
opinions.  No  such  general  charge  could  be  directed  against  Irish 
Cooperative  Meat,  Limited ;  and  yet  the  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland 
finds  himself  unable,  after  four  months,  to  assure  Lieutenant-Colonel 
Sir  John  Keane  that  if  the  business  organization  of  which  Sir  John 
is  chairman  proceeds  to  erect  premises,  they  will  not  be  burned  down 
by  forces  of  the  Crown;  or.  if  burned  down,  compensation  will  be 
paid.  This  is  making  easy  the  operations  of  the  American  trusts,  of 
which  official  dread  was  lately  expressed.  We  can  be  quite  sure  that 
if  American  money  was  invested  in  a  meat  factory  in  Ireland,  the 
American  Government  would  very  soon  get  compensation  from  the 
British  Government  for  its  proprietors  if  it  was  burfled  down  by  the 
armed  forces  of  the  Crown.  The  property  of  American  citizens  in 
Ireland  would  be  either  adequately  protected;  or,  if  wrecked,  com- 
pensation would  be  paid.  No  American  capitalist  need  dread  loss  of 
his  money  if  he  builds  a  meat  factory  in  Ireland.  Why  then  cannot 
Sir   John    Keane   and   his   colleagues   get   a  guarantee   of   safety  or   a 


989 

guarantee  of  compensation?  The  problem  is  beyond  us  to  solve.  Sir 
Hamar  Greenwood  denies  explicitly  that  the  British  Government  has 
any  hostility  to  cooperative  organization.  What  is  it,  then,  which 
makes  him  unable  to  insure  Irish  Cooperative  Meat,  Limited,  against 
the  destruction  of  its  premises  if  this  society  gives  out  the  contract 
and  starts  to  work?  We  have  no  answer.  Perhaps  the  Chief  Secre- 
tary, now  that  we  have  given  publicity  to  the  correspondence,  may  be 
induced  to  speak  and  say  whether  he  suspects  Lieutenant-Colonel  Sir 
John  Keane,  the  general,  colonels,  majors,  and  other  shareholders  of 
treasonable  practices,  or  whether  any  industrial  enterprise  of  the  kind 
is  unlawful  in  Ireland.  We  think  an  answer  is  needed,  and  we  hope 
the  question  will  be  put  at  Westminster,  where  convention  requires 
that   an   answer   shall   be  given." 

HOSTILITY  OF  ENGLISH  CAPITALISTS  BEHIND 
REPRESSION  OF  IRISH  INDUSTRIES 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Has  that  enterprise  been  completely  abandoned 
as  a  result  of  this  oppression?      A.     Yes,  it  is  abandoned  now. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Now,  quite  obviously  the  producers  in 
that  territory  were  planning;  to  organize  a  meat-packing  factory  that 
would  enable  them  to  carry  on  all  the  functions  of  raising'  cattle  and 
killing  cattle  and  marketing  the  by-products.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Why  should  the  British  Government  object  to  that  enterprise, 
and  prevent  the  marketing  of  the  agricultural  products  of  Ireland? 
Why  should  the  Government  object  to  that,  in  your  opinion?  A. 
Well,  I  find  it  difficult  to  answer  that  question,  but  there  is  no  doubt 
about  it  that  they  have  continually  put  a  spoke  in  the  wheel  to 
scotch  Irish  industry.  You  know  the  same  effort  was  made  in  Cork 
to  stop  the  Ford  factory.  It  was  not  done  through  the  Government, 
but  through  the  motor  industry  in  England.  They  tried  to  block 
Ford  setting  up  that  industry  because  they  said  that  if  he  did,  it 
would  hurt  British  trade. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  you  say  the  British  Government  was  not 
behind  it?  A.  Well,  they  may  have  been,  but  it  was  primarily  the 
British  motor  industry  that  was  objecting. 

Q.  Commissioner  Mauer:  Did  Ford  get  his  plant  erected?  A. 
Yes,  he  did.  He  eventually  decided  to  make  these  motor  tractors 
and  not  motor  cars. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  In  your  opinion,  why  is  the  British  Gov- 
ernment opposed  to  the  better  development  of  Irish  industry?  A. 
I  think  it  is  sheer  stupidity.  The  British  are  a  stupid  people.  They 
have  proved  it  in  many  ways.  After  all,  Ireland  helps  to  feed 
England.  It  seems  to  me  an  amazing  thing  that  the  English  people 
should  desiroy  Irish  creameries  and  have  to  pay  five  shillings  a 
pound  for  butter.  It  seems  to  me  sheer  stupidity — amazing  stu- 
pidity. In  destroying  Ireland.  England  is  also  destroying  her  best 
customer. 


990 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  do  you  think  is  in  their  mind?  A. 
Well,  I  think  they  are  afraid. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  That  economic  prosperity  will  increase 
Ireland's  power?  That  a  weak  country  can  be  held  in  subjection 
easier  than  a  strong  country?  A.  Yes,  that  is  it.  You  know  they 
have  tried  to  keep  the  population  of  Ireland  at  low  ebb.  As  Sir 
John  French  said,  the  trouble  in  Ireland  was  that  there  were  too 
hundred  thousand  young  men  too  many,  and  they  wanted  to  get  rid 
of  this  population — the  "vermin,"  as  they  call  them. 

Major  Newman:  He  said  there  were  two  hundred  thousand  too 
many?  A.  Yes,  young  men.  He  said  that  they  were  the  cause 
of  the  trouble. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  This  policy  of  economic  repression  in 
Ireland,  in  so  far  as  it  is  intelligent,  must  be  traceable  back  to  an 
individual  or  a  group  of  individuals  or  economic  interests.  Have 
you  any  theory  as  to  where  it  emanates  from?      A.     No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Does  it  emanate  from  the  north  of  Ireland,  from  Belfast?  A. 
No,  I  don't  think  so. 

Q.  Does  it  emanate  from  Sir  Edward  Carson's  policy?  A.  I 
think  there  is  a  desire  among  the  capitalist  class  in  England  to  get 
Ireland  in  its  grasp  economically,  and  therefore  anything  like  the 
cooperative  movement  they  object  to,  because  the  cooperative  move- 
ment means  the  destruction  of  capitalism. 

Q.  So  you  think  that  there  is  a  tendency  in  England  to  weaken 
Ireland  for  their  own  power?      A.     Yes,  I  think  that  is  so. 

Q.  It  is  not  necessary  for  each  group  to  be  organized,  but  each 
group  sees  its  opportunity  in  Ireland,  and  that  opportunity  is  weak- 
ened by  cooperation?     A.     Yes,  yes. 

Q.  The  fishing  industry  in  England,  for  instance,  might  object  to 
the  cooperative  fishing  industry?      A.     Yes,  yes. 

IRISH    ANTHRACITE   COAL    NOT   UTILIZED 

Q.  And  the  coal:  the  English  coal-mine  owners  object  to  the  de- 
velopment of  Irish  coal  mines?  A.  Well,  Irish  coal  is  anthracite, 
and  it  is  no  good  for  burning. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Now,  just  a  moment.  You  say  it  is 
no  good  for  burning?      A.     Well,  they  cannot  burn  it  in  their  grates. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Your  stoves  are  not  equipped  to  use  anthracite? 
A.     We  haven't  the  heating  systems  that  you  have. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer :  We  think  that  is  the  best  coal  we  have. 
Our  folks  would  never  know  how  to  use  any  other  kind  of  coal. 
They  have  always  burned  anthracite.  A.  We  have  been  carrying 
on  a  movement  to  encourage  the  Irish  people  to  use  it,  but  it  means  a 
change  in  our  grates. 


991 

Q.  But  when  you  come  lo  set  up  your  new  industries  and  foun- 
dries, you  can  adapt  them  to  use  anthracite?  A.  Yes.  the  new  in- 
dustries are  adapting  themselves  to  use  Irish  coal. 

RAPID  GROWTH  OF  COOPERATIVE  MOVEMENT 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  You  are  familiar  with  the  cooperative 
movement  in  Ireland,  are  you.  Miss  Bennett?  A.  Well,  1  am  not 
working  in  it.  but  I  know  the  Plunkett  House  crowd  very  well. 

Q.  We  have  not  had  very  many  statements  on  thai,  aid  if  you 
can  give  us  an  idea  of  the  cooperative  movement  and  how  it  is 
developing  and  its  scope,  it  would  be  very  interesting.  A.  Well, 
you  understand,  the  cooperative  movement  in  Ireland  is  altogether 
agricultural — agricultural  production.  The  cooperative  movement 
is  rather  different  from  what  it  is  in  England.  Its  strength  reallv 
lies  in  Sir  Horace  Plunkett's  organization,  the  Irish  Agricultural  Or- 
ganization Society.  It  is  the  cooperation  of  farmers,  and  it  has 
grown  immensely  within  the  last  twenty  years.  I  think  it  is  about 
twenty  or  twenty-five  years  established.  And  there  have  been  co- 
operative societies  set  up  all  over  Ireland,  north  and  south,  and  it 
has  been  a  quite  definite  link  between  north  and  south,  for  as  I 
mentioned  before,  no  politics  can  enter  into  the  movement  at  all. 
Unionists  come  into  the  cooperative  movement  with  our  Sinn  Feiners. 
Politics  are  outside  of  the  movement  altogether. 

DESTRUCTION    OF    COOPERATIVE    CREAMERIES 
BY  CROWN  FORCES 

I  think  recently  there  has  been  quite  a  distinct  feeling  that  there 
has  been  an  effort  to  break  up  this  cooperative  movement  in  Ireland. 
The  attacks  on  the  creameries  look  distinctly  like  that.  Alvo<2,ether 
now  the  number  of  creameries  destroyed  amount  to  47.  Those  are 
not  all  in  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society.  Sir  Horace 
Plunkett's  organization,  but  the  large  majority  of  them  are.  I  have 
here  another  copy  of  the  Irish  Homestead  which  gives  a  complete 
list  of  the  creameries  destroyed  in  Ireland  and  the  circumstances. 
If  I  read  one  or  two,  you  will  see  how  it  is  done.  The  I.  A.  0.  S.  is 
getting  out  evidence  to  prove  that  it  was  the  Crown  forces  who  de- 
stroyed these  creameries  in  Ireland. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  If  you  read  us  one  or  two  of  [hem.  can  you 
leave  us  the  rest?  A.  Yes,  I  brought  you  an  extra  copy  so  that  the 
secretary  might  have  them. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  We  are  very  glad  to  have  that  specific  in- 
formation. We  have  already  had  some  information  on  the  subject, 
but  we  should  like  to  have  a  complete  and  reliable  list.  A.  Well. 
this  you  can  rely  upon  as  being  absolutely  correct,  as  being  verv 
carefully  compiled  at  Plunkett  House. 


992 

The  first  is  the  9th  of  April,  i920,  the  Rearcross  Cooperative 
Creamery,  County  Tipperary.  Stated  to  have  been  burned  by 
police  and  soldiers;  machinery  broken  by  police  previous  day;  prop- 
erty completely  destroyed.  Direct  personal  evidence  given.  Claim 
for  £5,000  lodged  in  County  Court;  damages  amounting  to  £1,100 
awarded.  Compensation  for  machinery  was  refused,  as  it  was  not 
a  separate  claim  of  which  notice  was  given  within  three  days,  in 
accordance  with  Malicious  Injuries  Act.  Creamery  appealed  against 
decision,  and  were  awarded  a  further  sum  of  £1,200  for  machinery 
destroyed,  with  costs.  This  attack  and  others  under  same  date  are 
assumed  to  have  been  reprisals  for  the  shooting  of  two  policemen. 
This  was  the  first  cooperative  creamery  attacked  in  Ireland.  Trade 
turnover,  1918,  £7,858. 

Then  it  goes  on.  The  tenth  of  April  is  another  in  Reiska,  County 
Tipperary,  an  auxiliary  creamery  or  separating  station,  property  of 
Upperchurch  Cooperative  Agricultural  and  Dairy  Society,  County 
Tipperary.  Stated  to  have  been  damaged  by  police  and  soldiers; 
machinery  smashed  and  premises  injured.  Supposed  cause  same  as 
at  Rearcross.  Direct  personal  evidence  given  at  County  Court.  An 
award  of  £800,  including  consequential  damage,  was  given  against 
the  county.  County  Court  Judge  Moore  expressed  the  view  that 
Crown  ought  to  pay  the  amount.  The  creamery  was  later  entirely 
destroyed  (see  Reiska,  10th  August).  See  also  Upperchurch,  31st 
July. 

On  the  same  date,  April  10th,  is  another  one,  the  Knockfune  Co- 
operative Agricultural  and  Dairy  Society,  County  Tipperary,  an  in- 
dependent auxiliary  dairy  society  supplying  cream  to  Newport  Co- 
operative Agricultural  and  Dairy  Society  for  churning.  Stated  to 
have  been  damaged  by  military  and  police,  machinery  smashed  and 
premises  injured.  Supposed  cause  of  attack  same  as  at  Rearcross. 
Direct  personal  evidence  available.  This  creamery  was  later  en- 
tirely destroyed.  See  Knockfune,  29th  July.  See  also  Newport  Co- 
operative Agricultural  and  Dairy  Society,  23d  July.  Trade  turn- 
over, 1918,  £6,581. 

On  the  same  day  the  Kilcommon  Cooperative  Creamery,  County 
Tipperary,  was  also  destroyed,  and  the  goods  in  store  destroyed  and 
stolen.  Direct  personal  evidence  given.  No  reason  whatever  could 
be  found  as  a  cause  for  the  attack.  And  so  it  goes  on  all  through 
the  list — two  on  the  6th  of  August;  one  on  the  10th  of  August;  an- 
other on  the  16th;  another  on  the  17th,  and  on  the  27th;  another  on 
8th  September,  15th  September,  19th  September.  The  1st  of  Octo- 
ber, two  more. 


998 

COOPERATIVE   RECREATION   HALL   DEMOLISHED 

The  7th  of  October  case  is  rather  interesting.  This  was  an  agri- 
cultural society  at  New  Ross,  County  Wexlord,  a  general  cooperative 
society.  Cushinstown  Hall  is  one  of  a  number  of  halls  erected 
throughout  the  country  out  of  a  bequest  left  by  Gertrude,  Countess 
of  Pembroke,  and  which  have  been  vested  in  cooperative  societies 
for  administrative  ends.  These  halls  are  used  for  educational  and 
social  purposes  of  all  sorts,  and  have  been  found  valuable  acces- 
sories to  the  cooperative  movement.  Soldiers  are  staled  to  have 
held  up  about  fifteen  men  present  at  9  P.  M.,  smashed  scenery  and 
stage  fittings,  burst  open  presses,  and  smashed  boards  out  of  stage 
fronts  and  out  of  wall  and  floor  with  a  pickaxe,  and  then  fired  shots 
over  the  hall  when  leaving.  The  cause  of  the  attack  is  supposed  to 
be  "terrorism."  An  estimate  has  been  obtained  for  the  repairs  and 
a  bill  for  same  has  been  sent  to  Sir  Nevil  Macready  through  Colonel 
Jameson  Davis,  Enniscorthy. 

And  then  the  list  continues:  8th  October,  a  central  cooperative 
creamery  at  Banteer,  County  Cork;  two  creameries  on  the  9th  Octo- 
ber, one  on  the  11th,  two  again  on  the  loth,  and  others  on  the  25th. 
27th,  and  31st;  another  on  3d  November,  4th  November,  5th  Novem- 
ber, and  again  others  on  8th,  9th,  11th,  13th,  and  18th  November; 
26th  November,  27th — two  large  central  creameries.   And  so  it  goes. 

NOT   ENOUGH   MONEY   IN   IRELAND   TO   PAY   FOR 
DAMAGE    DONE    BY    CROWN    FORCES 

Q.  Major  Newman:  I  note  that  the  first  one  or  two  of  those 
that  you  read  said  that  a  proceedings  for  compensation  for  damages 
was  instituted  and  afterwards  allowed  by  the  court.  A.  That  was 
the  county,  you  see;  not  the  British  Government.  But  the  counties 
are  not  paying  those  claims  under  the  Malicious  Injuries  Act.  They 
cannot  pay  them.  It  would  be  impossible.  Even  in  the  Irish  Times, 
which  is  the  Government  organ,  they  stated  that  if  all  the  claims  for 
malicious  injuries  were  to  be  paid,  there  is  not  money  enough  in 
Ireland  to  pay  them  all. 

Q.  We  have  been  told  by  other  witnesses  that  it  is  the  custom  to 
assess  these  damages  back  on  the  community — that  the  community 
has  to  pay  it.     But  what  court  was  that?      A.     The  county  court. 

Q.  Later,  after  that  did  they  cease  to  do  that,  or  did  they  make 
awards  all  the  way  through?  A.  I  will  see  about  that  (looking 
at  notes). 

Major  Newman:  That  is  not  essential. 

The  Witness:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  none  of  these  are  being  paid. 
The  county  councils  are  refusing  to  pay  them.      In   some  of  these 


994 

cases  they  made  a  claim,  and  in  others  they  did  not.  For  instance, 
at  Ballymote,  County  Sligo,  a  claim  for  £25,000  was  made  to  the 
County  Court. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  But  that  is  simply  lodged  in  the  court.  It  is  not 
awarded  by  the  court.  A.  Well,  in  many  cases  the  court  says  the 
loss  is  so  much.  But  what  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  So- 
ciety is  out  to  do  is  to  prove  the  loss,  to  place  complete  evidence  be- 
fore the  court,  and  then  make  the  claim  on  the  British  Government. 
That  is  what  they  want  to  get  this  evidence  for. 

GOVERNMENT'S    FALSE    EXCUSES    FOR   DESTRUC- 
TION OF  COOPERATIVE  CREAMERIES 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  case  in  which  arms 
or  ammunition  had  been  discovered  in  creameries  that  had  been 
raided  by  the  Crown  forces?  A.  It  was  stated  in  one  or  two  cases 
that  they  had;  but  that  was  stated  not  to  be  true.  The  police  stated 
that  they  were  fired  upon  from  two  creameries.  I  think  it  would 
open  this  up  if  a  read  a  little  from  "AE."  on  the  subject  of  the 
destruction  of  these  creameries.     It  is  from  one  of  his  editorials: 

"The  cooperative  movement  in  Ireland  has  gained  world-wide  recog- 
nition as  one  of  the  sanest  and  most  beneficent  of  national  movements. 
Its  membership  includes  men  of  all  parties  and  creeds  in  Ireland, 
aiid  it  is  as  popular  and  widely  spread  in  Ulster  as  in  other  provinces. 
Its  constitution  and  the  rules  of  its  societies  forbade  the  discussion 
of  political  and  sectarian  matters.  On  this  basis  many  thousands  of 
Unionists  were  able  to  join  with  their  Nationalist  fellow-countrymen 
in  an  all-Ireland  movement  for  their  mutual  benefit.  Over  one  thou- 
sand societies  have  been  created,  with  an  annual  turnover  now  ex- 
ceeding eleven  million  pounds.  The  creameries,  bacon  factories,  mills 
and  agricultural  stores  created  by  cooperative  societies  are  a  familiar 
feature  in  the  Irish  countryside.  Up  to  the  moment  of  writing,  forty- 
two  attacks  have  been  made  on  cooperative  societies  by  the  armed 
forces  of  the  Crown.  In  these  attacks  creameries  and  mills  have 
been  burned  to  the  ground,  their  machinery  wrecked ;  agricultural 
stores  have  also  been  burned,  property  looted,  employees  have  been 
killed,  wounded,  beaten,  threatened,  or  otherwise  ill-treated.  Why 
have  these  economic  organizations  been  specially  attacked?  Because 
they  have  hundreds  of  members,  and  if  barracks  have  been  burned  or 
police  have  been  killed  or  wounded  in  the  lamentable  strife  now  being- 
waged  in  Ireland,  and  if  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  cannot  cap- 
ture those  actually  guilty  of  the  offenses,  the  policy  of  reprisals,  con- 
doned by  the  spokesmen  of  the  Government,  has  led  to  the  wrecking 
of  any  enterprise  in  the  neighborhood,  the  destruction  of  which  would 
inflict  widespread  injury  and  hurt  the  interests  of  the  greatest  number 
of  people.  I  say  this  has  been  done  without  regard  to  the  innocence 
on  guilt  of  the  persons  whose  property  is  attacked.  It  is  not  only 
wicked,  this  indiscriminate  justice,  but  it  is  the  most  foolish  of  all 
policies  if  its  object  be  to  make  people  cling  to  the  donor  of  the 
justice  so  dispensed.  Every  innocent  person  whose  property  is  at- 
tacked, whatever  were  his  political  feelings  before,  becomes  naturally 
an  antagonist  to  the  power  which  has  injured  him. 


995 


CREAMERIES  HAVE  NOT  BEEN  USED  AS 

AMBUSHES 

"In  two  cases  it  has  been  alleged  that  cooperative  creameries  were 
used  as  a  basis  of  attacks  on  military  or  police.  These  exceptions  are 
the  Newport  and  Ballymacelligott  Societies.  It  was  stated  by  General 
Rycroft,  of  course  on  the  report  of  some  subordinate,  that  shots  were 
fired  from  the  Newport  Creamery  on  a  party  of  soldiers.  The  Irish 
Agricultural  Organization  Society  was  most  anxious  to  get  at  the 
truth  of  these  charges,  which  involved  a  violation  of  the  non-political 
character  of  the  associations  it  created.  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  in- 
vestigated the  case  on  the  spot,  seeing  witnesses  and  attending  the 
Quarter  Sessions  when  the  case  was  heard.  Before  this  a  claim  for 
compensation  under  the  Malicious  Injuries  Acts  was  made  by  the 
Newport  Society.  General  Rycroft  was  informed  that  the  claim  was 
to  be  considered  by  the  County  Court  Judge,  and  the  military  authori- 
ties were  asked  to  give  evidence.  They  did  not  summon  any  witnesses. 
They  did  not  employ  counsel  to  cross-examine  the  Society's  witnesses. 
They  actually  withdrew  from  the  district  the  soldiers  who  were  im- 
plicated in  the  attack.  I  believe  this  was  done  because  on  deliberation 
it  was  found  that  the  charge  of  shooting  from  the  creamery  could 
not  be  sustained.  The  second  case,  that  of  Ballymacelligott,  has  been 
given  wide  publicity  by  the  Chief  Secretary.  Most  careful  inquiries 
have  been  made  by  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society,  and 
from  a  study  of  the  affidavits  made  by  eye-witnesses  I  am  convinced 
the  statement  made  by  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  on  what  authority  1 
know  not,  is  a  travesty  of  the  facts  ;  that  there  was  no  ambush  at  the 
creamery,  but  there  was  a  most  wanton  attack  by  the  armed  forces 
of  the  Crown  on  employees  of  the  Society  and  others  present  during 
the  normal  working  of  the  creamery.  In  this  attack  two  men  were 
killed  and  two  wounded.  It  may  be  said  my  denial  is  of  no  more 
value  than  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood's  affirmation.  Be  it  so.  It  brings 
me  to  the  purpose  of  this  article,  which  is  to  demand,  on  behalf  of 
the  Irish  cooperative  movement,  an  open  and  impartial  inquiry  into 
these  attacks  on  cooperative  societies.  We  cooperators  have  nothing 
to  fear  from  the  result  of  such  investigation.  The  Government  may 
have,  for  it  has  hitherto  refused  to  set  up  any  tribunal  to  inquire  into 
the  wreckings.  I  believe  refusal  was  made  because  the  Government 
knows  only  too  well  the  outcry  which  would  follow  an  exposure  of 
the  horrors  which  have  taken  place  in  Ireland,  to  which  thousands 
of  witnesses  of  high  character  could  testify.  I  appeal  from  the  British 
Government  to  the  British  people.  I  appeal  to  their  sense  of  fair  play 
and  justice  to  judge  between  Irish  cooperators  and  the  Government. 

'THE  GOVERNMENT  STANDS  CHARGED  WITH 
ARSON" 

"We  charge  certain  unknown  agents  of  the  Crown  with  indiscrimi- 
nate wreckings  and  burnings  of  our  societies.  The  Chief  Secretary 
retorts  by  saying  they  are  centers  of  revolutionary  propaganda.  Let 
him  prove  his  charge  if  he  has  evidence.  We  declare  we  have  nothing 
to  fear  from  any  investigation.  The  whole  character  and  repute  of 
our  movement  is  involved.  .  If  our  defense  breaks  down,  a  long  and 
honorable  record  is  broken  and  our  character  is  ruined.  Knowing- 
all  this,  we  press  for  the  fullest  and  most  public  inquiry.  The  Gov- 
ernment stands  charged,  through  the  acts  of  its  agents,  with  arson, 
with  the  wrecking  of  property,  and  the  ill-treatment  of  Irish  citizens, 
without  due  trial  by  processes  of  law.  It  shrinks  from  publicity.  It 
refuses  open  inquiry.  We  ask  for  investigation.  The  Government 
denies  it.  Which  shows  the  worse  conscience?  Which  behaves  as 
the  guilty  party?     The  leaders  of  the  cooperative   movement   in    Ire- 


996 


land,  Sir  Horace  Plunkett,  the  Lord  Monteagle,  the  Rev.  Thomas 
Finlay,  and  Mr.  R.  A.  Anderson,  are  publicists  whose  character  and 
work  have  been  known  for  over  a  quarter  of  a  century.  Are  they 
men  likely  to  make  irresponsible  or  unfounded  accusations;  men  with 
long  and  honorable  careers  of  public  service  behind  them?  They,  I 
assert,  are  men  of  honor  with  a  knowledge  of  Ireland  a  thousand 
times  greater  than  the  Chief  Secretary  could  possibly  have,  a  knowl- 
edge gained  by  lives  spent  in  philanthropic  work.  When  such  men 
ask  for  open  inquiry,  public  opinion  in  Great  Britain,  if  there  be  an}' 
sense  of  justice  there,  would  insist  on  this  being  granted.  It  cannot 
allow  the  fountain  of  justice  to  lie  under  the  imputation  of  being 
fouled.  What  is  being  done  in  Ireland  today  may  be  done  in  Great 
Britain  tomorrow. 

COMPENSATION  FROM  CROWN  FUNDS 

DEMANDED 

"On  behalf  of  the  Irish  cooperative  movement  I  demand  the  setting 
up  of  an  impartial  tribunal  to  investigate  the  illegal  destruction  of 
cooperative  property  by  the  armed  forces  of  the  Crown.  I  claim  for 
these  societies  full  compensation  out  of  Crown  funds  for  the  property 
destroyed,  if  the  charge  is  proved.  It  is  futile  saying  there  are 
County  Courts  and  that  claims  can  be  made  there  under  the  Malicious 
Injuries  Act.  That  Act  was  never  intended  to  lay  upon  the  rate- 
payers in  any  district  the  burden  of  compensation  for  property 
wrecked  by  the  forces  of  the  Crown.  No  County  Council  will  levy 
a  rate  to  compensate  persons  where  property  has  been  destroyed  by 
those  whose  ostensible  reason  for  employment  by  the  Crown  is  the 
defense  of  life  and  property.  The  Irish  Agricultural  Organization 
Society  has  indeed  urged  its  societies  to  make  claims  under  the  Act 
before  the  judges  in  the  County  Courts,  not  in  the  belief  that  the 
compensation  awarded  would  be  levied  by  the  County  Council  or  paid 
by  the  ratepayers,  but  because  by  doing  so  sworn  evidence  about  the 
cause  of  the  wrecking  was  available.  On  this  sworn  evidence  County 
Court  judges  have  already  assessed  damages,  and  one  of  them  de- 
clared the  Crown  ought  to  compensate  for  the  acts  of  its  agents,  as 
it  did  in  Fermoy.  The  actual  .injury  inflicted  on  the  cooperative 
movement  and  the  property  of  poor  farmers  is  estimated  by  experts 
to  be  between  £250,000  and  £300,000,  while  the  annual  trade  disturbed 
is  almost  £1,000,000.  I  say  if  the  British  people,  because  of  their 
natural  anger  over  the  shooting  of  police  and  soldiers,  condone  with- 
out inquiry  indiscriminate  vengeance  inflicted  on  persons  and  move- 
ments which  are  innocent,  they  will  lay  up  a  hell  for  themselves  in 
their  own  country.  They  will  be  tearing  up  all  the  safeguards  of 
justice  won  through  centuries  of  struggle,  and  there  are  too  many 
interests  minatory  to  democracy  in  power  to  allow  them  the  advan- 
tage of  such  precedents.  If  we  trust  the  judges  and  the  courts,  the 
Government  should  not  fear  to  do  so.  Do  not  trust  those  who  are 
afraid  of  courts  of  inquiry,  and  who,  to  every  demand  for  justice, 
respond  by  attempts  to  excite  hate  and  rage  among  the  people.  It 
may  be  we  Irish  are  scoundrels,  but  if  we  are,  let  us  be  tried  openly 
for  our  crimes,  and  not  penalized  without  trial  either  by  order  of  the 
secret  service  or  without  orders  by  military  or  police  forces  out  of 
hand.  I  ask  for  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society  the 
support  of  all  fair-minded  men  in  order  that  it  may  get  the  public 
inquiry  it  demands.  Do  not  let  a  great  movement  which  has  hitherto 
won  praise  from  all  parties  in  the  state  and  from  visitors  all  over  the 
world  be  condemned  to  destruction  on  the  word  of  a  man  whose  sole 
personal  knowledge  of  Ireland  is  derived  from  brief  visits,  protected 
by  the  military,  to  Dublin  Castle,  and  whose  sole  source  of  informa- 
tion about  the  matters  in  dispute  is  the  word  of  the  persons  who  are 
charged  with  committing  the  crimes." 


997 

WRITER  A   PROTESTANT    ULSTERMAN 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Now  this  is  an  editorial  in  what?  A.  In 
the  Irish  Homestead — an  editorial  written  by  "AE."  himself,  Mr. 
George  Russell. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Has  Mr.  Russell  ever  been  arrested?  A. 
No,  although  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood  spoke  of  him  in  the  House  of 
Commons  as  a  dangerous  extremist. 

Q.  And  the  Homestead  has  been  permitted  to  go  on,  has  it?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  There  has  been  no  interruption  of  the  Homestead  publica- 
tion? A.  No,  no  interruption.  Well,  you  see,  when  you  read  it 
conscecutively,  it  is  written  in  a  very  moderate  tone.  That  is  a  mere 
statement  of  facts,  and  they  cannot  go  back  of  that. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Is  Mr.  George  Russell  a  Sinn  Feiner?  A. 
Well,  he  does  not  belong  to  the  Sinn  Fein  organization,  but  he  is 
Sinn  Fein  in  sympathies. 

Q.     He  is  Irish?     A.     Yes,  he  is  an  Ulsterman. 

Q.     Mr.  Manly:  He  is  a  Protestant,  I  believe.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Sir  Horace  Plunkett  is  a  Protestant  too, 
is  he  not?     A.     Yes,  he  is. 

Q.  And  he  has  always  been  identified  with  the  Unionist  cause 
in  so  far  as  he  has  been  identified  with  any  party?  A.  Well,  he  is 
a  dominion  home  ruler  now. 

Q.  But  he  has  not  been  in  any  conflict  with  the  Government?  A. 
No.  But  he  has  been  very  badly  treated  by  the  Lloyd  George 
Government. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  he  is  not  opposed  to  the  British  Govern- 
ment? 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  He  does  not  favor  Irish  independence? 
A.  0,  I  see  what  you  mean.  He  is  not  a  Republican.  He  is  not  a 
Separatist.     No. 

SCOPE  OF  IRISH  COOPERATIVE  MOVEMENT 

Q.  Mr.  Russell  stated  that  there  are  a  thousand  cooperative  so- 
cieties in  Ireland.  Those  include  stores,  creameries,  and  what  else? 
A.     Well,  you  see,  they  have  also  to  buy  agricultural  machinery. 

Q.  And  they  buy  it  cooperatively?  A.  Yes.  And  they  have 
a  great  number  of  stores. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  cooperative  banks  that  have 
been  organized?  A.  About  the  National  Land  Bank.  yes.  1  do 
know  something  about  that,  but 

Q.  Now,  we  have  diverted  you  from  what  you  were  saying.  A. 
I  was  going  to  say  that  I  would  prefer  not  to  give  any  evidence  about 
the  National  Land  Bank  for  special  reasons. 


9% 

Q.  Chairman  Wood:  Then,  if  you  like,  Miss  Bennett,  you  can 
just  go  back  to  what  you  have  prepared.  A.  Well,  I  think  that 
covers  everything  I  can  say  about  the  industrial  development  of 
Ireland.  There  is  a  letter  here  which  Mr.  Anderson,  secretary  of  the 
Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society,  has  prepared  for  the  press, 
and  if  you  wish,  I  can  just  leave  that  with  you. 

Commissioner  Addams:  If  you  will  just  file  that  with  the  Sec- 
retary. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Miss  Bennett,  could  you  cover  the  attitude  of  the 
Irish  industrial  workers  toward  the  Republic?  That  has  not  been 
covered  to  date,  and  if  you  could,  I  think  it  would  be  very  valuable. 
A.     Yes,  I  propose  to. 

Q.  If  you  can  take  it  up  in  your  own  way.  A.  Yes.  I  am  in 
the  Irish  Labor  movement  myself.     I  shall  take  that  up  presently. 

DEVELOPMENT  OF  REPUBLICAN  ARBITRATION 
COURTS 

I  would  like  next  to  deal  with  the  arbitration  courts,  because  I  do 
not  think  there  is  anything  more  interesting  in  the  Republican  Gov- 
ernment than  the  development  of  these  arbitration  courts.  Have 
they  been  dealt  with  in  any  way? 

Major  Newman:  To  some  extent,  but  we  would  be  very  glad  to 
have  your  testimony  on  the  subject. 

The  Witness:  Well,  these  courts,  you  know,  were  set  up  by  the 
Republican  Government. 

Major  Newman:  Well,  if  you  will  just  proceed  as  if  we  didn't 
know  anything  about  them,  it  would  be  most  helpful. 

The  Witness:  I  had  hoped  to  have  for  the  Commission  a  very  in- 
teresting list  of  cases  dealt  with  by  these  courts — a  long  list  of  cases 
giving  the  nature  of  the  case  and  how  it  was  dealt  with  and  so  on. 
But  we  had  to  be  rather  careful.  We  thought  we  ought  to  be  rather 
careful  in  the  papers  we  brought  with  us,  and  this  particular  paper 
has  not  come  to  hand. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Just  at  this  point,  you  had  no  difficulty,  did 
you,  Miss  Bennett,  in  regard  to  a  passport  to  come  over?  A.  Miss 
Townshend  had  some,  but  she  comes  from  County  Cork,  and  every- 
body from  Cork  has  difficulty.  But  it  was  the  American  consul  who 
made  it  difficult  for  Miss  Townshend.  She  only  got  it  two  hours  be- 
fore she  had  to  start. 

Major  Newman:  She  can  tell  us  about  that  later. 

The  Witness :  These  courts,  when  they  first  began,  as  far  as  I  know 
the  British  Government  made  no  objection  to  them.  I  think  they 
thought  they  were  a  kind  of  little  amusement  for  the  Sinn  Feiners, 
and  that  they  would  never  attain  any  serious  proportions.  But,  as  a 
matter  of  fact,  they  were  taken  up  with  great  favor  by  the  Irish 


999 

people,  for  the  Irish  people  have  a  great  love  for  law.  These  new 
courts  were  taken  up  with  very  great  favor  because  there  is  no  red 
tape  to  them.  The  courts,  of  course,  were  instituted  by  the  Repub- 
lican Government.     They  had  their  elections  to  the  courts. 

Q.  Was  that  an  open  election?  A.  I  don't  know.  The  amaz- 
ing thing  about  these  courts  was  that  the  British  people  who  came 
over  were  very  much  struck  by  the  way  the  people  accepted  these 
courts  and  accepted  their  decisions  almost  in  all  cases.  Mrs.  Swan- 
wick  made  the  comment  that  she  had  never  seen  nor  heard  of  any 
case  of  government  by  consent  like  the  government  of  Ireland  by 
the  Dail  at  the  present  time. 

UNIONISTS  AND  BRITISH  CLAIMANTS  USE 
REPUBLICAN  COURTS 

They  deal  with  all  kinds  of  cases  in  the  arbitration  courts.  And 
all  kinds  of  people  have  come  before  the  courts  with  their  cases.  In 
the  country  they  have  had  to  come  before  the  arbitration  courts — 
the  Unionists  have  had  to  come,  because  no  one  would  appear  before 
the  British  courts.  They  could  not  get  land  cases  settled  otherwise, 
because  nobody  would  come  into  the  other  courts  or  respect  their 
decisions.  And  Unionists  who  have  come  before  these  courts  have 
spoken  in  the  highest  praise  of  the  justice  of  these  courts.  The  way 
they  are  conducted  and  the  judgments  they  have  given  have  been 
highly  commended. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  British  claimants  have  come  before  these  courts, 
have  they  not,  as  a  matter  of  fact?  A.  That  I  do  not  know  of 
myself.  A.  Miss  Townshend:  The  Prudential  Insurance  Company 
of  England  had  a  case  in  the  Cork  District  Court  not  so  long  ago. 

Miss  Bennett:  Well,  when  these  courts  became  very  popular,  then 
the  British  Government  tried  to  suppress  them.  All  over  the  coun- 
try they  were  suppressed. 

BRITISH  DECLARE  REPUBLICAN  COURTS 
ILLEGAL 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Could  you  tell  us  something  about  how  they 
functioned  before  they  suppressed  them?  A.  Well,  they  used  to 
meet  in  a  public  hall  or  room,  and  it  was  quite  open.  Kevin 
O'Shicl,  he  was  a  judge  in  the  Land  Court,  and  he  told  me  that  he 
has  carried  on  one  of  these  courts  in  the  room  when  it  was  half- 
filled  with  military  and  police.  He  simply  went  on  with  his  case. 
That  was  before  they  were  forcibly  prevented.  Now  they  are  driven 
underground,  and  hold  their  sessions  in  all  sorts  of  places,  wher- 
ever they  can  get  a  room. 


1000 

Q.  When  did  those  courts  begin  to  function?  A.  It  must  be 
about  a  year  and  a  half  ago.  I  cannot  give  you  exact  dates.  I 
am  sorry. 

Q.  But  approximately  when?  A.  I  would  say  about  a  year 
and  a  half  ago. 

Miss  Townshend:  I  don't  think  it  has  been  quite  that  long,  has  it? 

Q.  And  approximately  about  how  long  a  period  did  they  run 
openly?      A.     Up  to  the  beginning  of  summer. 

Q.  Beginning  of  summer  in  1920?  A.  Yes,  this  spring.  When 
the  land  courts  were  held  this  spring,  they  were  held  openly. 

Q.  Then  for  nearly  a  year  they  were  held  openly?  A.  No, 
you  are  right,  Miss  Townshend.  They  were  held  openly  only  for 
about  six  months.  All  last  autumn  they  were  getting  started  in  dif- 
ferent places. 

EFFECTIVE  WORK  OF  INDUSTRIAL  CONCILIA- 
TION  BOARDS 

But  also  recently  they  have  had  a  large  growth  in  connection  with 
the  labor  movement.  They  started  what  were  called  arbitration 
boards,  which  were  really  conciliation  boards,  in  which  they  dealt 
with  industrial  disputes,  and  they  dealt  with  them  in  a  most  satis- 
factory way.  There  is  a  note  paper  which  has  not  come  to  hand 
giving  a  list  of  the  cases  they  have  dealt  with,  the  cases  in  which  they 
have  prevented  strikes  or  brought  strikes  to  a  satisfactory  conclusion. 
Of  course  the  workers  were  always  willing  to  appear  before  these 
courts,  but  it  was  very  difficult  to  get  the  employer  to  appear.  Before 
the  establishment  of  these  courts,  the  Dail  Minister  of  Labor  tried  to 
handle  these  cases  himself,  and  these  courts  were  an  outgrowth  of 
his  work. 

I  had  an  experience  in  this  connection — one  of  our  cases  about 
women  garment  workers.  Tom  Kelly,  who  by  all  rights  ought  to 
be  Lord  Mayor  of  Dublin,  but  is  at  the  present  time  insane  since  his 
imprisonment  in  England — at  that  time,  however,  he  was  all  right, 
and  he  acted  as  arbitrator  of  this  case  in  which  I  was  concerned. 
On  the  second  afternoon  when  I  went  in,  Tom  Kelly  said  to  me, 
"You  have  got  to  hurry  up  and  get  this  case  settled,  because  we 
expect  the  military  here  by  four  o'clock."  It  went  on,  and  we  did 
not  get  the  case  settled,  and  it  came  to  be  a  quarter  after  three.  We 
were  holding  out,  and  the  employers  would  not  give  in.  Tom 
Kelly  put  his  watch  on  the  table  and  said,  "Half  an  hour."  Then, 
"Ten  minutes."  "Five  minutes."  And  we  got  the.  case  settled  five 
minutes  to  four. 


1001 

COURTROOM    SMASHED    UP    BY    MILITARY 

Q.  What  happened  at  four?  A.  Well,  the  military  did  not 
smash  up  the  place  that  day,  but  they  came  the  next  day  and  smashed 
up  the  place. 

Q.     And  where  was  that?      A.      In  Hartford  Street.   Dublin. 

Q.  This  court  had  its  offices  there?  A.  Yes,  they  bought  a 
house  and  had  their  offices  there. 

Q.     When  was  that?     A.     November,  1919. 

Q.  And  at  that  time  they  were  being  raided?  A.  Yes,  you  see, 
they  had  been  declared  an  illegal  organization. 

Q.  Up  to  that  time  they  were  a  legal  organization?  A.  Yes, 
up  to  shortly  before  that  time. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  After  that  there  were  continuous  raids?  A. 
Yes.  I  have  gone  over  to  the  place  since,  and  have  looked  at  it, 
and  I  saw  the  damage  done  by  the  Crown  forces  in  these  raids. 

THE  IRISH  WOMEN  WORKERS'  UNION 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  I  would  just  like  to  ask  a  question. 
You  told  us  you  were  connected  with  the  Women's  Trade  Union 
League  there?      A.     Yes,  the  Women  Workers'  Union. 

Q.  From  where?  A.  It  is  a  trade  union  for  the  women  work- 
ers of  Ireland. 

Q.  It  takes  the  whole  country  in?  A.  Well,  we  have  not  got 
the  whole  country  in  yet.  The  majority  of  our  workers  are  in 
Dublin. 

Q.     And  what  position  do  you  hold?      A.     I  am  general  secretary. 

Q.  And  how  did  you  get  that  position — elected  or  what?  A. 
May  I  tell  that  later  on  when  I  deal  with  the  labor  movement? 

Q.  Well,  I  have  to  leave  after  an  hour,  and  I  would  like  to  know 
before  I  go.  A.  Well,  then,  I  will  tell  you.  In  the  early  part  of 
1916  there  was  no  proper  union  for  women  workers  at  that  time. 
The  Irish  Transport  Workers'  Union  admitted  women,  but  it  was 
not  satisfactory  at  that  time.  And  an  effort  was  made  to  establish 
an  independent  women  workers'  union.  lames  Connolly  approved 
of  that  step,  and  Miss  Maloney,  who  was  working  with  him.  ap- 
proached me  and  asked  me  if  I  would  try  to  organize  the  women 
workers  in  the  principal  industries  in  Dublin.  This  was  in  the  early 
part  of  1916,  and  I  knew  that  she  and  James  Connolly  were  very 
closely  associated  with  politics.  And  I  said  I  would  not  take  up 
the  work  unless  the  trade  union  movement  was  absolutely  divorced 
from  politics.  I  had  a  warm  discussion  with  James  Connolly,  and 
he  said  it  was  absolutely  wrong  to  take  the  movement  apart  from 
politics;  that  labor  could  only  progress  that  way.  Nothing  was 
done  then.     After  the  rising  in  1916  the  whole  labor  movement  arose 


1002 

quickly,  and  the  men  got  organized  quickly.  In  January  it  was 
again  suggested  to  me  from  Liberty  Hall  that  I  should  organize  the 
women  workers.  And  to  show  you  the  conditions  then — and  you 
know,  it  was  in  January,  1917 — how  the  cost  of  living  had  gone  up, 
the  women  workers  were  earning  7,  8,  9  and  10  shillings  a  week. 
That  was  in  the  printing  trade,  and  other  trades  were  earning  less 
than  they.  The  printing  trade  was  the  aristocratic  one,  and  con- 
ditions were  better  there  than  in  some  of  the  others.  I  saw  some- 
thing had  to  be  done,  so  I  started  in  1917  with  a  few  girls  of  the 
printing  trade  whom  I  got  together.  And  we  had  extraordinary  suc- 
cess, and  I  got  the  women  in  the  printing  trade  organized. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  those  adult  women  getting  7,  8,  and  9  shil- 
lings a  week?  A.  Adult  women;  some  of  them  had  worked  for 
18  or  19  years  for  the  same  employer.  The  industrial  conditions  in 
Dublin  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  the  uprising  of  1916.  My  father 
was  of  the  employing  class,  and  they  looked  upon  me  as  a  sort  of 
blackleg. 

Q.  What  is  your  father's  occupation,  Miss  Bennett?  A.  He  is 
an  auctioneer  appraiser,  an  appraiser  of  values.  He  is  not  an  em- 
ployer of  a  large  sort,  of  course,  but  he  belongs  to  that  class.  When 
I  went  to  the  employers  and  asked  them  for  an  increase,  they  refused, 
and  would  not  recognize  the  women  workers'  union.  And  they  tried 
to  bribe  the  women  out  of  the  union.  They  said  they  would  give 
them  a  sixpence  or  a  shilling  increase.  I  told  them  not  to  accept  it. 
The  women  are  splendid  in  Dublin.  I  have  known  of  cases  where 
girls  have  returned  to  employers  a  half  crown — and  that  is  a  great 
deal — they  returned  it  for  six  or  eight  weeks,  this  half-crown  in- 
crease, because  it  was  not  given  through  the  union.  And  eventually, 
after  six  or  eight  months,  we  got  the  Employers'  Association  to 
recognize  our  union  and  to  deal  with  us. 

ABSOLUTELY    NO    RELIGIOUS   ANTAGONISM 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Now,  what  I  had  in  mind;  you  told 
us  in  the  beginning  that  you  were  a  Protestant.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  Dublin,  I  believe,  is  overwhelmingly  Catholic.  A.  Yes, 
and  the  workers  are  overwhelmingly  Catholic. 

Q.  The  people  in  this  country  are  led  to  believe  that  the  trouble 
in  Ireland  is  of  a  religious  nature.     A.    Yes. 

Q.  And  it  seems  strange  to  me  that  they  would  have  a  Protestant 
organizer  in  a  Catholic  district  if  there  was  this  religious  difference 
which  is  alleged  to  exist  in  Ireland.  A.  Well,  our  union  now 
numbers  6,000  workers,  and  I  should  say  that  they  are  almost  alto- 
gether Catholic.  Personally  I  have  met  only  about  a  half  dozen 
Protestants.  Of  course  there  may  be  others,  but  I  have  not  met 
them. 


1003 

Q.  But  you  have  found  no  antagonism  to  you  on  account  of  the 
fact  that  you  are  a  Protestant?  A.  Absolutely  none.  And  I  have 
now  working  with  me  as  my  assistant  a  Miss  Shaw,  who  is  also  a 
Protestant — a  very  much  better  Protestant  than  I  am,  if  I  may  say  it 
that  way.  In  one  of  the  firms  two  girls  who  were  Protestant  got  into 
some  sort  of  dispute  with  the  employers.  There  was  some  small 
injustice  done  them,  and  the  other  girls,  who  were  all  Catholics, 
would  not  stand  for  it.  They  demanded  that  the  employers  treat 
these  two  Protestant  girls  fairly.  I  have  always  been  treated  with 
the  greatest  confidence  and  the  greatest  consideration  by  these 
women. 

Q.  That  is  very  interesting,  in  view  of  what  is  stated  in  this  coun- 
try. A.  I  found  it  very  interesting  myself.  I  thought,  in  going 
into  it,  that  there  would  be  a  good  deal  of  opposition.  But  I  did 
not  find  it  at  all. 

WAGES  OF  DUBLIN  WOMEN  WORKERS  IMPROVED 

Q.  Now,  to  what  extent  have  you  improved  the  condition  of  the 
women  workers  in  Dublin?  A.  Well,  you  would  not  think  it  very 
much,  but  we  think  it  very  considerable.  You  see,  they  used  to  pay 
different  wages  in  different  firms.  We  have  now  established  a  uni- 
form scale,  and  a  different  wage,  according  to  age.  They  begin  at 
14  years  of  age  at  10  shillings  a  week,  and  at  the  end  of  four  years 
they  get  a  minimum  of  35  shillings  a  week. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  So  that  14-year-old  girls  now  get  more  than 
women  used  to?  A.  Yes,  more  than  the  adult  women  used  to. 
And  the  adult  women  now  get — as  I  said,  the  minimum  for  a  trained 
worker  is  35  shillings. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  What  did  they  get  prior  to  your  organiza- 
tion? A.  Nine  to  ten  shillings  the  senior  women  got.  Some  of 
them  got  as  little  as  6  or  7  shillings. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  find  it  very  difficult  to  have 
discipline  among  them?  A.  No,  no,  you  do  not.  They  are  very 
good.  It  is  rather  interesting.  We  find  that  certain  types  of  work- 
ers have  certain  characteristics.  The  printers  are  magnificent  trade 
unionists.  The  laundry  workers  are  very,  very  difficult,  not  through 
any  ill-nature,  but  through  sheer  good  nature  and  indifference. 

AFFECTION   OF   DUBLIN   WORKERS    FOR 
JAMES  LARKIN 
Q.     Now,  did  you  know  James  Larkin?     A.     I  have  never  met 
him.     I  have  heard  him  speak,  but  I  never  came  into  contact  with 
him  personally. 

Q.     No,  I  should  not  think  you  would,  because  he  was  here  some 


1004 

time  before  you  were  in  the  labor  movement.  A.  Well,  my  interest 
in  the  labor  movement  began  at  the  time  Mr.  Larkin  was  in  Dublin 
in  1913. 

Q.  Of  course  you  know  what  happened  to  Mr.  Larkin  here?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  Do  the  people  in  Dublin  feel  strongly  about  the  way  he  is 
treated  here?  A.  0,  yes,  there  is  a  great  feeling  for  him  there. 
The  people  have  by  no  means  forgotten  him.  And  his  work,  like 
Connolly's,  is  still  being  carried  on.  Thomas  Foran  acts  for  him 
now. 

Q.  In  what  esteem  do  they  hold  Larkin  over  there,  generally? 
A.  Well,  it  is  rather  difficult  to  say.  The  dockers  and  the  general 
workers  retain  their  affection  for  Larkin.  The  other  workers  have 
got  ahead  of  the  agitation  stage.  It  is  difficult  to  say.  He  certainly 
would  have  a  very  large  following  if  he  came  back  to  Ireland. 

Q.     He  would?     A.     Yes,  he  would. 

INTOLERABLE  INDUSTRIAL  CONDITIONS 
PRECIPITATE   EASTER    UPRISING 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  You  said  there  was  a  definite  relation  between  the 
industrial  situation  and  the  Easter  uprising.  Could  you  develop 
that?     A.     Yes,  that  was  generally  true. 

Q.  You  mean  a  general  feeling  of  discontent  that  gradually 
merged  into  the  Easter  uprising?  A.  Yes,  I  think  it  helped  to  pre- 
cipitate it.  Nothing  could  stop  the  uprising  in  Dublin.  Connolly 
didn't  start  it.  The  conditions  were  already  there  which  made  an 
uprising  possible.  Of  course,  from  the  treatment  he  had  received, 
and  the  workers  too.  he  was  a  terribly  bitter  man — naturally  enough, 
for  he  was  shamefully  and  terribly  treated. 

Q.  So  you  think  that  working  conditions  and  wages  had  some- 
thing to  do  with  it  too?  A.  Well,  you  see,  the  wages  were  so  bad. 
I  have  told  you  what  the  wages  of  the  women  were.  I  could  not  tell 
you  what  the  wages  of  the  men  were,  but  they  were  equally  scan- 
dalous. The  people  were  living  under  scandalous  conditions.  The 
same  conditions  went  on  for  two  years  after  the  war  began,  while  the 
cost  of  living  was  steadily  increasing.  Life  was  not  worth  living 
for  these  men. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Do  you  have  slum  conditions  in 
Dublin?  A.  Yes,  the  slums  of  Dublin  are  terrible,  terrible,  ter- 
rible.    And  now,   you  see,  we  have  a  housing  famine  in   Dublin. 

Q.     A  housing  famine?     A.     A  housing  famine. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  And  now,  I  suppose,  with  the  present  destruction 
of  houses  that  housing  condition  is  getting  worse?  A.  Yes,  you 
see  that  is  why  the  destruction  of  houses  is  so  terrible. 


1005 


REPUBLICAN  LAND  COURTS  AND  DECREE  OF 
DAIL  AVERT  LAND  RIOTS 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Now  will  you  go  back  again  to  these 
courts?  A.  To  these  courts.  Yes.  About  the  land  courts.  In  order 
to  make  up  this  report.  I  had  a  long  talk  with  Mr.  Kevin  O'Shiel, 
who  is  a  member  of  the  Dail  and  also,  of  course,  is  on  the  run. 
But  I  managed  to  see  him  before  I  came  over  here  and  he  gave  me 
some  details  of  his  duties  as  Land  Judge  and  how  the  work  started. 
You  all  know,  of  course,  of  what  we  call  the  land  hunger  in  Ireland, 
and  this  passionate  desire  that  rises  up  among  the  Irish  people  for 
the  possession  of  land.  It  seems  to  come  in  waves.  A  wave  of  this 
land  hunger  swept  over  Ireland  in  the  early  part  of  1920.  The 
people  in  Connaught  got  to  threatening  the  landlords  and  demanding 
land.  Arthur  Griffith — you  know  him  by  reputation,  of  course — 
realized  that  there  was  going  to  be  serious  land  trouble,  which  would 
further  complicate  the  political  question  in  Ireland.  Accordingly, 
the  Dail  had  to  take  this  under  consideration,  and  the  Dail  issued  this 
decree. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Would  you  give  us  the  date  of  this,  just  for 
the  record?     A.     This  was  the  29th  of  June,  1920.     (Reads  decree)  : 

"At  a  time  when  in  many  Irish  cities,  town,  and  villages  the  British 
armed  forces  are  engaged  in  wholesale  sabotage,  the  following  proc- 
lamation is  issued  by  the  elected  Government  of  Ireland  : 

"  'DAIL  EIREANN  PROCLAMATION 

"  'Whereas  it  has  come  to  our  knowledge  that  claims  have  been  and 
are  being  made  in  various  parts  of  the  country  to  farms  and  holdings 
which  are  being  used  and  worked  by  the  occupiers  as  dairy,  agricul- 
tural, and  residential  holdings,  and  that  such  claims  are  being  based 
on  the  assertion  that  the  claimants  or  their  ancestors  were  formerly 
in  occupation  of  the  property  so  claimed;   and 

"  'Whereas,  these  claims  are,  for  the  most  part,  of  old  date,  and 
while  many  of  them  may  be  well  founded,  others  seem  to  be  of  a 
frivolous  nature,  and  are  put  forward  in  the  hope  of  intimidating  the 
present  occupiers ; 

"'Now  it  is  decreed  by  Dail  Eireaun  in  session   assembled: 

"'(1)  That  the  present  time  when  the  Irish  people  are  locked  in  a 
life-and-death  struggle  with  their  traditional  enemy  is  ill-chosen  for 
the  stirring  up  of  strife  amongst  our  fellow-countrymen;  and  that 
all  our  energies  must  be  directed  towards  the  clearing  out,  not  of  the 
occupier  of  this  or  that  piece  of  land,  but  the  foreign  invader  of  our 
country. 

"'(2)  That  pending  the  international  recognition  of  the  Republic 
no  claims  of  the  kind  referred  to  shall  be  heard  or  determined  by  the 
courts  of  the  Republic  unless  by  written  license  of  the  Minister  of 
Home  Affairs. 

"'(3)  That  in  the  meanwhile  claimants  may  file  particulars  of 
their  claims  with  the  Registrar  of  the  District  Court  in  which  the 
property  is   situated. 

"'And  it  is  further  decreed: 

"  'That  any  person  or  persons  who  persists  or  persist  in  pressing 
forward  a  disputed  claim  of  the  nature  above  referred  to  shall  do  so 


1006 

in  the  knowledge  that  such  action  is  a  breach  of  this  Decree ; 

"'And  it  is  ordered  that  the  forces  of  the  Republic  be  used  to  pro- 
tect the  citizens  against  the  adoption  of  high-handed  methods  by  any 
such  person  or  persons. 

"  'By  order  of  Dail  Eircami,  this  29th  day  of  June,  1920. 

"  'Department  of  Home  Affairs/  " 

The  Witness:  That  was  the  proclamation. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Did  that  put  an  end  to  the  cattle  driving?  A. 
Well,  I  wanted  to  tell  you  about  that.  What  led  to  the  Dail  taking  a 
very  strong  action  about  this  was  that  Captain  Shaw  Taylor,  a  promi- 
nent landlord  of  County  Galway,  was  shot — was  murdered  because 
he  refused  to  give  up  certain  land  to  the  claimants.  And  at  that 
time  the  Dail  had  information  that  there  were  a  large  number  of 
threatening  notices  to  landlords  throughout  the  West  and  part  of 
the  South,  threatening  them  with  death  if  they  did  not  cede  their 
land.  And  in  other  places  the  cattle  drivings  were  going  on.  So 
because  of  that  it  became  necessary  to  do  something.  Now,  Kevin 
O'Shiel  has  written  for  me  this  statement  of  the  land  problem. 

CATTLE-DRIVING 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Miss  Bennett,  for  the  purpose  of  our  record, 
could  you  tell  us  briefly  just  what  is  meant  by  cattle  driving?  A. 
If  certain  people — the  peasants — want  to  till  a  certain  lot  of  land 
that  a  landlord  is  using  too  much  of  for  grazing,  they  will  drive  the 
cattle  away,  you  see,  and  they  will  take  possession  of  the  land  them- 
selves. Or  in  other  cases  they  will  put  their  own  cattle  on  the  land 
where  large  lots  of  it  are  being  so  held. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Was  this  cattle  driving  spontaneous  among  the 
peoole?  A.  Yes,  it  was  purely  a  spontaneous  movement  among 
the  peasants  in  certain  districts;  not  in  all  districts,  but  in  certain 
districts. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  Was  it  accompanied  by  force,  or  did 
they  just  drive  the  cattle  away?  A.  0,  it  is  very  often  accom- 
panied by  force  and  even  bloodshed.  And  some  of  the  people  are 
very  anxious  today  about  what  may  happen  this  spring. 

VOLUNTEERS  ENFORCE  JUDGMENTS  OF  LAND 
COURTS 

These  Land  Courts  have  had  wonderful  success,  you  know.  They 
have  settled  many,  many  cases.  Even  when  their  judgments  were 
against  these  people  who  have  driven  cattle  off,  their  judgments  have 
been  acknowledged  and  accepted  by  the  people.  Kevin  O'Shiel 
gave  me  a  very  interesting  case.  He  went  down  to  this  very  danger- 
ous country  just  when  the  trouble  was  at  its  worst.  He  went  down 
to  County  Mayo,  and  he  gave  a  decision  against  the  claimants,  and 
they  would  not  accept  the  decree.     They  were  using  the  land  them- 


ioo? 

selves,  and  they  had  possession,  and  were  tilling  the  land,  and  would 
not  give  it  up.  Why  the  claimants  were  so  determined,  they  knew 
that  the  Volunteers  in  County  Mayo  would  not  turn  out  against  them 
and  operate  against  them.  But  the  Dail  sent  two  hands  of  Volun- 
teers from  outside  the  county,  one  from  Donegal  and  one  from 
County  Clare.  And  they  went  in  and  removed  twelve  of  these  men 
to  an  unknown  destination.  But  the  women  went  out  and  tilled  the 
land  when  the  men  had  been  removed.  And  then  the  Volunteers 
came  along  and  took  off  another  twelve.  And  after  that  they  never 
had  any  trouble.     Everything  went  smoothly. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  When  was  this  incident,  Miss  Bennett?  A. 
That  was  just  after  this  Decree,  at  the  end  of  June  or  the  beginning 
of  July,  1920. 

Q.  And  the  man  who  was  down  there  and  handled  that  matter 
told  you  about  it?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Just  what  is  his  position?     A.     He  is  a  Land  Judge. 

Q.  Was  he  head  of  the  judiciary  there?  A.  Just  for  that 
district. 

PRISONERS    TAKEN    TO    AN    "UNKNOWN 
DESTINATION" 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  How  long  did  they  stay  in  this  un- 
known destination?  Were  they  brought  back  soon?  A.  It  is  for  a 
fixed  time.     They  were  brought  back  again. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  This  unknown  destination  is  generally 
known  to  the  countryside?  A.  No,  no,  it  would  not  be;  for  that 
would  not  do.     They  would  be  brought  back  in  that  case. 

Q.  And  how  are  they  kept  in  these  unknown  destinations?  •  A. 
The  Volunteers  keep  them  there,  and  public  opinion  is  behind  them. 
Of  course  you  must  have  heard  the  story  here  of  the  prisoners  on  an 
island  off  Galway  who  refused  to  be  rescued  by  the  British  police 
because  they  were  prisoners  of  the  Irish  Republic.  They  drove 
them  away  when  they  came  in  boats  to  rescue  them. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Now,  these  men  who  were  removed — their 
cases  had  been  tried?  A.  0,  yes,  they  had  been  tried,  and  they 
were  resisting  the  judgment  of  the  Court. 

Q.  And  the  purpose  was  to  send  them  to  an  unknown  destination 
for  what  we  call  contempt  of  court?  A.  Yes,  it  was  just  an  arbi- 
trary action. 

Q.  Sort  of  a  mild  reprisal?  A.  Well,  of  course,  they  had  to 
have  respect  for  their  decrees.  There  is  no  doubt  but  that  that 
saved  the  country  from  terrible  land  troubles  last  summer,  the  fact 
that  these  courts  were  established  and  that  their  decrees  were  re- 
spected and  obeyed.     I  have  clippings  here  from  the   Times  and 


1008 

other  Unionist  organs  acknowledging  these  land  courts  and  the  good 
work  they  have  done. 

Miss  Townshend:  And  they  are  very  kind  to  their  prisoners. 

Commissioner  Addams:  They  are  not  criminals. 

The  Witness:  Of  course  not. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  It  is  the  policy  of  the  Republican  Gov- 
ernment to  treat  their  prisoners  kindly?     A.     Yes,  0  yes. 

Q.  They  do  not  treat  them  like  they  did  the  women  suffragists  ifi 
the  Washington  prisons  here?      A.     They  are  treated  very  kindly. 

LAND  RIOTS  OCCUR  WHERE  LAND   PURCHASE 
ACTS  ARE  INOPERATIVE 

Q.  Mr.  Manly :  Just  one  moment,  please,  Miss  Bennett.  Was  this 
agitation  and  this  shooting  of  landlords  most  marked  in  counties  and 
areas  where  the  Land  Purchase  Act  was  not  put  into  effect,  where 
these  large  estates  were  still  in  existence  and  were  being  used  for 
grazing  purposes  instead  of  tillage?  That  was  the  case,  was  it  not? 
A.  Yes,  these  land  cases  almost  all  arise  in  Galway  and  the  western 
counties. 

Q.  That  is  the  large  area  where  the  great  estates  still  stand, 
where  the  Land  Purchase  Act  has  not  been  put  into  effect?  A. 
Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  That  is  particularly  fertile  land,  I  believe. 
A.  No,  not  in  County  Mayo.  Parts  of  Galway  are  very  good,  but 
in  parts  of  the  west  the  land  is  poor  land,  and  the  peasants  are  very 
poor. 

Major  Newman:  Now,  we  have  interrupted  you  a  good  many 
times,  I  fear,  on  this. 

REPUBLICAN  LAND  COURTS  SUCCEED  WHERE 
ENGLISH   COURTS  FAILED 

The  Witness:  But  what  I  wanted  to  bring  out  was  the  success  of 
these  Land  Courts.  Where  the  English  courts  would  fail  absolutely, 
the  Irish  courts  can  carry  the  thing  through  and  deal  with  it,  be- 
cause they  understand  what  the  people  want. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  The  English  courts  for  centuries  have  been  trying 
to  solve  this  land  question,  and  have  not  had  the  success  that  the 
Dail  courts  have  had  in  just  a  few  months.  A.  Yes,  yes,  in  just  a 
few  months. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  think  it  would  be  of  interest  to  the  Commission  to 
read  the  statement  of  Mr.  Kevin  O'Shiel. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  yes;  we  would  like  to  hear  it. 

The  Witness:  This,  I  must  say,  was  written  rather  hurriedly.  I 
got  it  on  just  the  day  I  sailed.  Mr.  Kevin  O'Shiel  has,  of  course, 
been  on  the  run,  and  he  has  also  been  very  ill.      (Reading) 


1009 


"THE  LAND  QUESTION  IN  IRELAND 

"In  the  springtime  of  the  past  year  a  violent  and  sudden  recru- 
descence of  the  land  trouble  broke  out  in  the  province  of  Connaught, 
which  even  threatened  for  a  time  the  stability  of  the  popular  cause. 
The  trouble  began  in  the  County  Galway.  Like  most  popular  up- 
heavals, it  started  fitfully,  and  showed  no  signs,  even  at  its  height, 
of  organization  or  centralized  control.  It  confined  itself  at  first  to  a 
few  spasmodic  cattle  drives,  a  few  cases  of  the  destruction  of  fences. 
and  a  few  instances  of  threatening  letters.  After  the  shooting  of 
Mr.  Shaw  Taylor,  however,  the  question  took  on  an  extremely  sinister 
and  serious  aspect.  Far  from  checking  the  trouble,  the  tragic  death 
of  this  landlord  fanned  what  seemed  the  dying  embers  of  the  fever 
into  a  flame  which  sped  with  the  fury  of  a  prairie  fire  over  Galway, 
Mayo,  and  Roscommon,  and,  having  enveloped  all  Connaught,  spread 
to  West  Leinster  and  North  Minister,  and  even  to  the  southern  part;-, 
of  Ulster.  It  was  more  than  a  mere  disorder.  It  was  a  little  revo- 
lution, and  none  the  less  a  revolution  because  it  lacked  cohesion  and 
direction. 

"We  shall  now  examine  the  causes,  remote  and  proximate,  of  this 
fierce  distemper  which  sorely  tested  the  powers  of  the  Dail  and  which 
filled  the  industrious  and  peaceful  people  of  the  West  with  a  wild  and 
unreasoning  passion.  I  will  quote  from  an  article  I  wrote  in  Young 
Ireland  dated  26th  June,  1920: 

"  'The  land  question,  like  the  "Ulster"  question  and  the  "flax"  ques- 
tion and  every  other  domestic  disturbance  which  irritates  our  peace, 
is  of  English  origin  and  design.  Directly  or  indirectly  it  can  be  traced 
back  to  the  English  invasion  of  the  twelfth  century, — that  fruitful 
source  of  all  our  ills.  It  is  no  exaggeration  to  say  that  it  is  the 
basis,  the  framework,  the  very  core  of  Irish  history  since  the  English 
occupation.  It  arose  when  the  first  Irishmen  were  driven  from  their 
ancient  clan  lands  in  order  to  make  way  for  the  feudal  robbers  of 
Henry  Plantagenet.  And  then,  as  afterwards,  plunders  and  all  those 
outrages  which  accompany  Ei^lish  civilization  grew  and  increased ; 
it  also  prospered  and  grew  with  them.  It  was  pretty  active  in  the  time 
of  the  Tudors,  but  became  more  violent  when  the  Stuarts,  Cromwell, 
and  Dutch  William  were  enforcing  their  organized  systems  of  whole- 
sale pillage.  Readers  of  Young  Ireland  do  not  need  detailed  accounts 
of  the  clearances  during  those  periods  in  Ulster,  in  the  Midlands,  and 
in  Munster,  and  of  the  consequent  "man-driving"  to  the  lean  lands 
across  the  Shannon.  Still  more  confiscations  and  "forfeitures"  fol- 
lowed, until  the  majority  of  the  depossessed  Gaels  were  harried  into 
the  mountains  and  the  swamps,  and  had  to  draw  their  sustenance  as 
best  they  could  from  rock  and  heath  and  ooze. 

A  CENTURY  OF  DISASTER 

"  'But  to  find  the  immediate  cause  of  the  present  trouble,  we  need 
go  back  no  further  than  to  the  last  century, — beyond  all  doubt  the 
most  disastrous  century  this  nation  has  experienced.  It  opened  with 
the  well-planned  and  carefully  fostered  "famine."  whereby  over 
3,000,000  of  our  race  were  expeditiously  swept  out  of  existence.  And 
in  order  that  none  of  the  advantages  of  this  brilliant  and  successful 
coup  should  be  lost,  it  was  followed  up  in  quite  proper  strategic  fash- 
ion by  an  eviction  campaign  on  the  part  of  the  landlords  which  was, 
of  course,  directed  by  the  English  authorities. 

"  'In  due  course  the  day  of  reckoning  arrived,  and  the  century  which 
saw  the  dying  of  the  people  in  its  infancy  and  their  evictions  and  de- 
parture in  its  prime,  witnessed  the  going  of  the  landlords  before  its 
expiration.  A  degree  of  prosperity  followed  the  Land  War,  and 
though  the  stream  of  vigorous  humanity  continued  to  flow  copiously 
from  the  country,  there  was  a  kind  of  tranquility  which  was  not 
broken  until  the  recent  disturbances. 


1010 

DUPLICITY  OF  CONGESTED  DISTRICTS  BOARD 

"  'The  Land  War  cleared  off  the  landlords,  but  it  planted  in  their 
stead  an  equally  if  not  more  sinister  danger  in  the  shape  of  the  body 
known  as  the  "Congested  Districts  Board  for  Ireland."  This  body  was 
ushered  into  existence  with  much  trumpeting  and  blowing,  as  a  board 
of  the  people's  own  choice  and  for  the  people's  own  weal.  And  in 
order  to  give  a  semblance  of  reality  to  the  fiction,  a  number  of  promi- 
nent persons,  ecclesiastical  as  well  as  lay,  were  nominated  to  it.  But 
those  persons,  were  they  ever  so  interested  and  energetic,  were  never 
permitted  to  go  beyond  the  "advisory"  stage  of  functioning.  The  reins 
of  power  were  in  the  tight  grasp  of  the  English  minister,  who  saw  to 
it  that  nothing  harmful  to  the  English  scheme  of  things  would  be  car- 
ried out.  The  Congested  Districts  Board  undoubtedly  did  some  good 
work  in  reinstating  evicted  tenants  on  economical  holdings,  but  it  car- 
ried out  its  work  with  incredible  slowness.  Since  the  war  it  has 
ceased  to  function — even  slowly ;  and  the  excuse  is  the  same  excuse 
for  every  wanton  neglect  on  the  English  Government's  part  in  Ire- 
land,— the  necessity  for  economy !  Now,  this  incredible  slowness  was 
of  course  purposely  planned.  The  people  were  told  often  enough  to 
wait  in  patience,  and  all  would  be  well.  They  did  wait,  and  the  Board 
crept  along  with  its  pretenses,  with  the  result  that  there  are  now  some 
thousands  less  in  Connaught  than  there  would  be  had  things  been 
done  expeditiously  and  conscientiously.  "Land  for  the  People !"  is 
the  open  slogan  of  the  Board;  emigration  is  its  concealed  object. 

"  Today  this  Board  is  the  landlord  of  thousands  of  acres  of  the 
finest  land  in  Connaught.  In  Roscommon  alone,  where  the  situation  is 
very  acute,  it  holds  close  on  to  60,000  acres  of  excellent  untenanted 
lands!  What  the  actual  area  of  its  possessions  in  Galway,  Mayo, 
Clare,  and  other  counties  is,  I  don't  know ;  but  there  is  no  doubt  what- 
ever that  those  possessions  are  very  considerable  in  extent  and  very 
rich  in  quality.  A  large  proportion  of  those  vast  estates,  capable  of 
supporting  a  quarter  of  a  million  people,  are  let  out  in  grazing  ranches 
to  farmers  and  small  holders,  whereby  an  enormous  sum  is  annually 
netted.  But  again,  there  are  many  valuable  ranches  lying  derelict  and 
empty,  and  that,  too,  in  parts  of  the  county  where  there  is  serious  con- 
gestion. 

IMMEDIATE  CAUSES  OF  RECENT  LAND  TROUBLE 

"  'The  direct  causes  of  the  recent  trouble  would  appear  to  be  three- 
fold: 

"'(1)  Wilful  and  incredible  slowness  on  the  part  of  the  Congested 
Districts  Board; 

"'(2)  The  maturing  of  a  new  generation  since  the  termination  of 
the  Land  War ; 

"  '(3)  The  astonishing  increase  of  deep  national  feeling  in  the  hearts 
of  the  people,  with  a  resultant  determination  to  live  in  the  country  if 
at  all  possible.'  " 

The  Witness:  I  certainly  would  add  a  fourth  cause  here,  and  that 
is  the  growth  of  the  Labor  movement  in  Ireland;  because,  you  know, 
the  last  few  years  the  Transport  Workers  have  organized  the  peasant 
workers,  and  they  have  brought  a  new  spirit  into  the  peasant  class 
in  Ireland.      (Continues  reading)  : 

"  'The  third  cause  is,  I  think,  the  driving  force  at  present.  Indeed, 
so  strong  is  this  love  of  the  earth  of  Mother  Ireland  that,  like  all 
strong  and  undirected  emotions,  it  is  apt  to  run  amuck  at  times.  In 
point  of  fact,  it  actually  has  led  to  grave  abuse  in  parts  of  the  country. 
There  are  certain  parishes  where,  as  soon  as  the  fever  fell  upon  them, 


ion 

they  proceeded  to  break  down  the  walls  and  fences  and  drive  the 
stock  of  persons  but  a  few  acres  better  off  than  themselves.  Again, 
in  many  cases  they  selected  the  comparatively  small  man  for  attack 
when  practically  at  their  doors  there  were  boundless  acres  untenanted 
and  often  unstocked. 

REPUBLICAN   ARBITRATION    COURTS   A    REVELA- 
TION OF  EFFICIENCY  AND  DISPATCH 

"  '.  .  .  The  Arbitration  Courts  were  a  revelation  of  efficiency  and 
dispatch.  With  the  sanction  of  An  Dail,  they  sprung,  as  it  were,  from 
the  hearts  of  the  people  in  order  to  settle  a  difficulty  which  threatened 
to  become  a  menace,  and  which  no  foreign  tribunal  could  possibly 
settle.  Nothing  could  surpass  the  eagerness  of  the  local  arbitrators  in 
the  District  Courts  to  eliminate  all  prejudice  and  do  plain  and  simple 
justice  to  every  man,  be  he  landlord  or  tenant,  claimant  or  resister. 
It  was  edifying  also  to  follow  the  testimony  of  the  unsworn  witnesses, 
and  note  the  pains  they  took  to  be  accurate  and  truthful.  I  have  been 
in  English,  French,  and  other  foreign  courts,  but  I  have  never  seen 
the  business  of  the  judiciary  carried  on  more  effectively,  if  less  for- 
mally, or  in  a  more  dignified  manner  than  by  those  plain  people  of 
the  west.  "Government  in  its  last  analysis,"  says  Woodrow  Wilson, 
the  man  of  many  saws,  "is  organized  force  based  on  the  consent  of  the 
governed."  And  again,  "In  reality,  laws  which  issue  from  the  arbi- 
trary and  despotic  authority  of  the  few  who  occupy  the  central  seats 
of  the  State  can  never  be  given  full  effect  unless  in  one  form  or  an- 
other the  power  of  the  community  is  behind  them."  And  there  is  no 
manner  of  doubt  that  the  power  of  the  community  supports  the  law 
and  the  judiciary  of  the  popular  authority  west  of  the  Shannon.'  " 

ORIGIN  AND  ORGANIZATION  OF  REPUBLICAN 
COURTS 

"I  have  quoted  very  largely  from  my  article  in  Young  Ireland.  I 
wish  now  briefly  to  add  a  few  details  concerning  the  construction,  the 
workings  of,  and  work  done  by  the  Republican  Courts.  It  was  the 
land  agitation  that  forced  the  establishment  of  the  popular  courts. 
At  the  time  that  the  agitation  broke  out,  the  British  authority  in 
nearly  the  entire  country  was  paralyzed  both  by  the  passive  attitude  of 
the  people  and  the  active  campaign  of  the  Volunteers.  The  Royal 
Irish  Constabulary  were  more  concerned  in  hunting  down  fugitive 
patriots  than  in  attending  to  the  business  of  averting  malefactions  and 
in  preserving  the  peace.  Thus  when  the  land  trouble  broke  out  there 
was  nothing  to  arrest  or  check  it  or  to  encounter  it  in  any  manner. 
Western  landowners,  large  and  small,  came  flocking  to  the  Republican 
authorities  in  Dublin,  beseeching  them  to  do  something  soon,  as  their 
lives  were  in  jeopardy.  All  those  landlords  had  received  warning- 
notices  threatening  them  with  death  if  they  did  not  sell  certain  por- 
tions of  their  land;  and  undoubtedly  if  things  were  left  to  themselves, 
we  would  have  seen  the  Shaw  Taylor  tragedy  repeated  many  times. 

"This  was  the  first  big  test  Dail  Eireann  had  to  encounter,  and  it 
faced  it  resolutely  and  swiftly  and  with  triumphal  success.  Out  of 
this  trouble  came  the  Republican  court  system.  The  smallest  court 
under  the  Republic  is  the  Parish  Court.  It  consists  of  three  parish 
justices  elected  by  the  people  of  the  parish,  subject  to  a  power  of  veto 
vested  in  the  Dail.  Its  jurisdiction  is  practically  the  same  as  that  of 
the  old  British  petty  sessions  courts.  The  next  court  is  the  District 
Court.  Every  Parliamentary  constituency  is  a  district ;  and  this  court 
consists  of  five  district  justices  elected  directly  by  adult  citizens  of 
both  sexes  of  the  district.  The  jurisdiction  of  this  court  is  similar  to 
that  of  the  British  County  Court.     The  next  highest  court  is  the  Cir- 


1012 

cuit  Court,  which  consists  of  a  Circuit  Judge  who  goes  round  to  the 
chief  towns  of  every  District  Court  and  hears  appeals,  etc.  The  Cir- 
cuit Judge  is  a  High  Court  judge,  and  is  appointed  directly  by  the 
Minister  for  Home  Affairs.  He  must  be  a  lawyer  of  seven  years' 
standing.  After  this  is  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeal  consisting  of 
three  Supreme  Judges,  who  never  move  from  the  metropolis.  Need- 
less to  say,  they  must  also  be  lawyers. 

LAND  COURTS  UNDER  DEPARTMENT   OF 

AGRICULTURE 

"All  land  cases  are  under  a  separate  jurisdiction.  They  are  under 
the  Department  of  Agriculture,  and  are  tried  either  at  first  instance  or 
on  appeal  from  the  District  Courts  by  Land  Judges  appointed  by  the 
Minister  of  Agriculture.  Half  of  these  Land  Judges  are  qualified 
lawyers;  the  other  half  qualified  lawyers  and  land  valuers.  They  rank 
as  Circuit  Judges,  and  hear  all  cases  of  which  land  is  the  subject 
matter,  subject  only  to  an  appeal  to  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeal. 
Last  year  these  land  judges  held  sittings  in  ten  counties  and  disposed 
of  over  four  hundred  cases.  No  judge  experienced  the  slightest 
trouble  in  enforcing  his  decrees,  as  public  opinion  was  strongly  behind 
him.  These  land  courts  claim  to  have  saved  the  lives  of  many  land- 
owners, to  have  given  general  satisfaction,  and  to  have  quelled  the 
turbulence  of  the  vexed  land  question." 

The  Witness :  That  answers  the  question  you  asked  about  the  work 
of  these  courts? 
Mr.  Manly:  Yes. 


LAND  COURTS  FUNCTION  DESPITE  MILITARY 
SUPPRESSION 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Then  did  Dail  Eireann  have  no  courts 
until  June,  1920?  Were  those  the  first  courts?  A.  Well,  before 
this  decree  was  issued,  they  were  forming  their  courts.  Because  I 
myself  was  asked  to  act  on  one  of  these  courts  in  the  early  part  of 
the  spring.  These  reports  of  this  land  trouble  were  coming  into 
them  for  a  considerable  time  before  they  succeeded  in  getting  the 
courts  going  and  setting  them  up. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Now,  Miss  Bennett,  have  you  the  details  of  a 
few  of  those  typical  land  cases  showing  the  manner  in  which  they 
were  settled?  A.  No,  I  am  sorry  I  cannot  give  you  that  informa- 
tion now.     I  hope  to  get  it  later. 

Mr.  Manly:  We  can  furnish  the  Commission  with  that  information 
from  the  Bulletin.     It  gives  a  list  of  such  cases. 

The  Witness:  Do  you  get  the  Bulletin? 

Mr.  Manly:  Yes,  when  it  gets  through  and  isn't  stopped  in  the 
mails. 

The  Witness:  Well,  it  was  their  list  of  cases  I  wanted  to  have 
here  today. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  think  we  have  the  Bulletins  giving  the  cases  tried 
before  the  courts  for  the  first  six  weeks  or  two  months,  giving  the 


1013 

general  character  of  the  case  and  the  decision  and  how  it  was  carried 
into  effect.  And  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  give  that  information  to 
the  Commission. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  At  first  these  land  courts  sat  openly? 
A.  Yes,  at  first,  but  not  now.  They  are  broken  up  if  they  sit  openly 
now.  I  was  told  in  Cork  when  I  passed  through  on  my  way  here 
that  they  had  a  large  number  of  cases  awaiting  settlement  now;  but 
they  are  continually  held  up  there.  But  in  Dublin  they  are  settling 
them. 

LANDOWNERS  ACCEPT  DECREES  OF  LAND 
COURTS 

Q.  Major  Newman :  I  want  to  ask  you  about  another  phase  of  this 
matter.  The  acuteness  of  the  land  question  was  due  to  the  fact  that 
there  was  land  tied  up  in  these  large  estates.  Now,  in  your  reference 
you  said  that  the  findings  of  these  Land  Courts  in  some  of  the  cases 
were  against  the  claimants.     A.     Yes,  yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  in  some  of  these  cases  there  were  de- 
crees against  the  landowners?      A.     Yes,  there  were. 

Q.  Now,  what  I  want  to  know  is  how  they  enforced  these  decrees 
against  the  landowners.  A.  Well,  Kevin  O'Shiel  told  me  after 
those  first  cases  the  decisions  were  accepted.  Of  course,  the  laud  is 
purchased — purchased  by  degrees,  you  understand. 

Q.  And  in  cases  of  that  kind  the  landowner  accepts?  A.  They 
accept,  yes. 

Q.  And  what  was  to  be  done  in,  cases  of  that  kind  was  that  they 
were  to  sell  the  land  under  these  existing  legal  terms  in  conformity 
with  the  previously  existing  British  law?  A.  Yes.  And  Kevin 
O'Shiel  told  me  also  that  there  were  a  number  of  complicated  cases 
which  could  not  'be  settled  in  that  simple  way,  and  those  cases  have 
been  held  over  pending  the  settlement  of  the  political  situation. 
They  say  here  in  their  Decree  that  they  have  arranged  that  "In  the 
meanwhile  claimants  may  file  particulars  of  their  claims  with  the 
Registrar  of  the  District  Court  in  which  the  property  is  situated. " 
In  any  case,  I  know  that  O'Shiel  told  me  that  he  had  a  number  of 
cases  come  up  before  him  which  he  could  not  settle  out  in  court 
in  that  way,  and  in  these  cases  the  parties  agreed  that  the  case  should 
be  held  over  until  the  country  was  more  settled.  They  arrived  at  a 
compromise,  in  other  words. 

JUSTICE   RATHER  THAN   LAW   DETERMINES 
DECISIONS   OF   LAND   COURTS 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Now,  these  courts  have  a  settled  code  of 
laws?     Has  the  Dail  got  out  a  special  code  of  laws  for  Ireland,  or 


1014 

are  they  using  the  laws  they  have,  the  laws  that  have  grown  up  in 
Ireland  during  the  past  centuries?  A.  No.  You  see,  they  have 
had  very  few  meetings  during  the  last  six  months. 

Q.  These  courts?  A.  No,  the  Dail.  And  their  attention  then, 
as  you  would  think,  would  be  to  attend  to  the  emergencies  of  the 
moment  in  Ireland. 

Q.     And  they  have  enacted  no  codes  of  law,  then?     A.     No,  no. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly :  Well,  you  see,  these  codes  are  being  gradually 
built  up  from  the  usages  of  the  country  and  precedents  on  a  basis  of 
fact.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  is  it  not  true  that  these  courts  are  carrying 
out  the  work  which  the  Congested  Districts  Board  failed  to  do?  A. 
Yes,  that  is  it. 

Q.  The  Congested  Districts  Board  was  created  to  handle  the  land 
question,  but  they  had  failed,  for  some  reason,  to  solve  the  con- 
gested land  situation.  Then  this  recent  wave  of  land  hunger  arose, 
and  these  Land  Courts  were  formed,  and  they  have  successfully 
handled  the  cases  which  the  Congested  Districts  Board  failed  to 
handle?     A.     Exactly. 

Q.  And  their  decisions  are  given  on  the  basis  of  the  rights  and 
wrongs,  irrespective  of  rules  of  law  anywhere,  are  they  not?  A. 
Yes,  yes.     I  think  that  is  the  great  value  of  these  arbitration  courts. 

ONE-THIRD   OF   LAND   STILL  IN   LARGE   ESTATES 

Commissioner  Howe:  Are  most  of  these  large  owners  Irish  or 
English  now?     A.    They  are  mostly  Irish,  I  think. 

Miss  Townshend:  The  Land  Bill  did  not  apply  to  many  of  these 
large  holdings. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  About  one-third  of  the  land  remains 
undivided,  does  it  not?     A.     Yes. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  About  60  per  cent,  of  the  land  is  now  owned 
by  the  Irish,  is  it  not?     A.    Yes. 

FINANCIAL  CRISIS  CONFRONTS  LOCAL  COUNCILS 

We  take  it  for  granted  that  you  know  about  the  county  and  local 
councils  and  the  elections  of  this  year,  and  that  the  majority  of  the 
county  and  local  councils  went  Sinn  Fein.  And  these  councils,  you 
see,  the  Local  Government  Board,  the  British  Local  Government 
Board,  control  to  a  great  extent  by  the  money  grants  that  are  given 
supplementary  to  the  rates  to  carry  out  certain  reforms.  In  this 
way  the  Local  Government  Board  control  them.  And  over  this 
question  a  great  crux  has  arisen.  Miss  Townshend  has  a  paper,  a 
statement  of  the  difficulty  that  has  arisen  over  the  financial  condition 
of  the  county  and  local  councils. 


1015 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams :  Perhaps  we  had  better  have  that  now. 
A.     Yes. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Then  Miss  Townshend  can  read  that.  Has 
Miss  Townshend  given  her  name  and  address? 

Commissioner  Howe:  No,  she  has  not. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CAROLINE  M.  TOWNSHEND 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Miss  Townshend,  will  you  please 
give  the  Commission  your  name?     A.     Caroline  Mary  Townshend. 

Q.  And  where  do  you  live,  Miss  Townshend?  A.  Glendower, 
County  Cork. 

Q.  And  your  religion,  Miss  Townshend?  A.  Well,  I  come 
from  a  Protestant  family  also. 

Q.     And  a  Unionist  family?     A.     A  Unionist  family  also. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  What  denomination?  A.  I  was  brought  up  hi 
the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Were  your  family  of  English  de- 
scent? A.  Yes,  on  my  mother's  side  we  came  over  from  England 
under  Strongbow,  and  I  have  also  some  Celtic  blood. 

WHY    LOCAL   COUNCILS    REPUDIATED    BRITISH 
LOCAL  GOVERNMENT  BOARD 

Q.  This  paper  you  are  just  about  to  read,  Miss  Townshend,  is 
about  the  councils?  It  was  written  about  the  present  situation  of  the 
councils?  A.  \es.  I  have  two  papers,  which  supplement  each 
other. 

Q.  Who  has  written  this  paper?  A.  A  member  who  is  on  the 
council.  You  will  tell  me  if  you  cannot  understand  me.  I  am  not 
used  to  reading  aloud. 

"The  local  administration  of  Ireland  is  in  the  hands  of  the  County 
Councils,  Rural  District  Councils,  Urban  Councils,  Town  Commis- 
sions, and  Boards  of  Guardians ;  and  was  hitherto  under  the  super- 
vision of  the  Local  Government  Board.  The  levying  of  compensation 
for  malicious  injuries  on  the  counties'  rates  was  the  first  thing  that 
led  to  the  councils'  disowning  the  Local  Government  Board  and  sepa- 
rating themselves  from  it.  They  disclaimed  responsibility.  Malicious 
injuries  include  the  burning  of  town  halls,  creameries,  private  houses, 
and  also  empty  police  barracks  to  prevent  their  being  reoccupied  by 
military." 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Now,  who  is  supposed  to  have  burned 
these  town  halls,  houses,  and  creameries?  A.  Well,  the  Crown 
forces.  That  is  the  belief  of  the  writer  of  this  paper.  I  Continues 
readine)  : 


1016 


WITHHOLDING   OF  GRANTS   A   DECLARATION    OF 
WAR  UPON  SICK  AND  POOR 

"They  include  also  compensation  for  murders  of  civilians.  The 
banks  were  the  treasurers  of  the  councils,  and  could  cash  a  check  for 
any  amount  awarded  in  court.  To  safeguard  the  funds,  the  treasurer- 
ship  was  removed  from  the  banks.  The  government's  response  was  to 
stop  all  so-called  grants  in  aid  of  hospitals,  lunatic  asylums,  sanatoria, 
salaries  of  medical  officers,  and  technical  education.  These  grants 
had  been  made  out  of  Irish  sources  of  revenue  in  the  control  of  the 
Treasury.  The  rates  thus  had  to  cover  the  whole  cost  of  local  ad- 
ministration, and  under  the  circumstances  the  boards  refused  to  allow 
the  Government  to  audit  their  accounts.  The  County,  Urban,  and 
Rural  Councils  are  delaying  payment  of  annuities  on  loans  for  public 
works,  laborers'  cottages,  and  so  forth,  until  a  settlement  is  come  to 
between  Dail  Eireann  and  the  English  Government. 

"The  next  step  of  the  English  Government  was  to  empower  the 
Local  Government  Board  to  proceed  by  writ  of  mandamus  against  the 
councils  and  boards.  This  the  Local  Government  Board  is  doing  in 
certain  cases,  naming  individual  members,  costs  to  be  levied  on  the 
defendants.  These  actions  are  now  pending.  The  refusal  by  the 
English  Government  of  the  grants  as  above  is  not  only  a  declaration 
of  war  upon  the  sick  in  hospital,  but  also  upon  the  feeblest  of  the 
poor,  to  whom  outdoor  relief  may  have  to  be  denied." 

The  Witness:  I  think  that  is  all  of  that.  The  other  paper  is  sup- 
plementary to  that. 

Q.  Commissioner  Maurer:  Who  is  that  from?  A.  This  is  from 
a  member  of  a  board.  I  do  not  know  whether  I  would  care  to  give 
his  name.  I  know  him  personally.  I  went  down  and  got  it  from 
him  first-hand.      (Reading): 

IRISH   LOCAL  GOVERNMENT   SUCCEEDS   DESPITE 
BRITISH   OBSTRUCTION  AND   DESTRUCTION 

"The  Local  Government  Department  of  Dail  Eireann  is  at  present 
the  authority  which  controls  and  supervises  local  administration  in 
twenty-nine  counties  of  Ireland.  In  spite  of  difficulties  of  communica- 
tion, it  is  receiving  and  dealing  with  the  minutes  of  the  meetings  of 
ihe  local  authorities  throughout  the  country.  Its  instructions  are 
obeyed,  and  its  advice  and  assistance  sought  in  the  problems  that  con- 
front the  Councils  and  Boards  of  Guardians;  and  despite  all  ob- 
structive tactics  of  the  English  Government,  the  people  through  their 
representatives  on  local  boards  turn  naturally  and  enthusiastically  to 
the  native  administration,  the  creation  of  their  own  will  democratically 
expressed.  The  machinery  of  the  English  Department  is  idle,  re- 
jected by  the  people.  The  clerks  in  the  custom  house  spend  their  day, 
some  at  novels,  and  some  few  studying  Irish.  The  latest  reports  of 
the  internal  conditions  of  the  boycotted  institution  are  to  the  effect 
that  its  higher  officials  definitely  despair  of  ever  again  regaining  their 
control  of  local  administration,  and  are  now  bent  on  a  course  of  ob- 
structive and  destructive  tactics  in  the  hope  of  wrecking  local  admin- 
istration, thereby  inflicting  great  hardships  on  the  most  helpless  sec- 
tions of  the  community, — the  sick  in  the  hospitals,  the  poor  who  are 
depending  on  outdoor  relief,  the  mentally  unsound  in  the  asylums 
which  are  maintained  by  the  County  Councils.  The  sequence  of  events 
leading  to  this  result  is  as  follows : 


1017 


ENGLISH  "GRANTS"  TAKEN  FROM  IRISH  TAXES 

"Early  last  summer  the  English  Government  declared  its  intention 
of  setting  all  'grants'  in  aid  of  local  administration  against  decrees  for 
'Criminal  and  Malicious  Injuries.'  These  terms  call  for  explanation. 
The  so-called  'grants'  amount  to  about  a  million  and  a  half  pounds  per 
annum,  doled  out  by  the  English  Government  to  the  local  bodies  for 
various  services,  such  as  care  of  lunatics,  prevention  and  treatment  of 
tuberculosis  and  other  medical  relief  to  the  poor,  maintenance  of  roads, 
etc.  It  should  be  kept  well  in  mind  that  this  sum  represents  (or  repre- 
sented) the  contribution  of  the  English  Government  to  the  internal 
administration  of  the  country,  while  about  forty  million  pounds  an- 
nually is  paid  by  the  people  in  taxation.  The  rest  of  the  burden  is 
borne  by  the  people  in  local  rates  struck  and  levied  by  the  County 
Councils.     So  much  for  the  'grants.' 

"CRIMINAL   AND   MALICIOUS   INJURIES   ACTS" 
LEVY  COSTS  OF  WAR  UPON  VICTIMS 

"Let  us  now  consider  the  'Criminal  and  Malicious  Injury  Decrees.' 
These  are  decrees  granted  in  the  English  Courts  against  local  authori- 
ties in  compensation  for  damage  to  person  or  property  in  a  particular 
area.  The  amounts  are  included  in  the  local  rates,  and  are  levied  from 
the  rate  payers  of  the  area  in  which  the  damage  occurs.  The  'Crimi- 
nal Injuries  Act'  applies  only  to  servants  of  the  English  Government. 
It  deals  with  injuries  to  the  person.  By  its  terms  the  English  Gov- 
ernment is  enabled  to  levy  huge  sums  in  compensation  to  the  relatives 
of  any  member  of  its  armed  forces  who  is  killed  or  wounded  while 
waging  war  on  the  Irish  people.  The  operations  of  this  Act  have  led 
to  developments  that  would  be  ludicrous  if  one  could  forget  the  plun- 
der they  involved.  Policemen  have  been  solemnly  awarded  hundreds 
of  pounds  because  of  a  kick  in  the  shin  received  or  alleged  to  have 
been  received  while  arresting  a  drunken  man.  Strictly  speaking,  under 
the  terms  of  this  Act  the  injury  is  supposed  to  be  received  as  a  result 
of  an  illegal  political  combination,  but  this  trifle  is  usually  disposed  of 
by  the  policeman  claiming  compensation  swearing  that  someone 
amongst  the  onlookers  shouted  'Up  de  Valera'. — evidence  wmich  His 
Majesty's  judges  find  ample  to  establish  that  the  injury  arises  from 
an  'illegal  combination.'  Putting  the  matter  quite  baldly,  this  com- 
pensation to  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  or  their  relatives  is  an  at- 
tempt to  make  the  Irish  people  pay  for  a  war  against  themselves. 
They  are  not  only  to  have  their  throats  cut  by  Sir  H.  Greenwood's 
Black-and-Tans,  but  they  are  to  pav  liberally  for  the  knife. 

The  'Malicious  Injuries  Act'  is  fundamentally  reasonable  and  just, 
supposing  normal  conditions  under  just  and  popular  Government  to 
exist.  It  provides  that  where  damage  is  done  to  property  in  any  area 
the  injured  person  can  claim  compensation  in  the  courts,  and  the  sum 
awarded  must  be  included  in  the  local  rates,  and  be  borne  by  the  rate 
payers  of  the  area  in  which  the  damage  occurs.  It  makes  it  the  in- 
terest of  the  inhabitants  of  an  area  to  see  that  property  is  respected. 
But  here  again  the  Irish  people  pay  for  the  knife  to  cut  their  throats. 
The  armed  forces  of  the  Crown  have  looted,  burned,  and  wrecked 
from  end  to  end  of  Ireland,  and  the  Irish  people  are,  through  their 
Councils,  put  in  the  dock  as  defendants  and  have  damages  awarded 
against  them.  Even  judges  on  the  English  bench  have  been  moved  to 
comment  on  the  tragic  irony.  The  County  Councils  have  been  in- 
structed not  to  appear  as  defendants  in  these  cases,  as  to  do  so  would 
seem  to  lend  solemnity  to  a  farce  and  accpiiescence  to  plunder.  But 
judgment  is  marked  against  the  county  councils  in  every  case  in  which 
a  claim  is  made,  and  the  farce  goes  merrily  on  ;  the  plunder  also,  since 
it  is  to  meet  these  claims  that  the  'grants'  are  being  withheld. 


1018 

ENGLAND   WITHHOLDS  GRANTS  TO  PAY  FOR 
DAMAGE  DONE  BY  HER  AGENTS 

"It  is  worth  pausing  to  consider  the  position  of  a  Republican  whose 
premises  are  gutted  by  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood's  Black-and-Tans — 
assassination  or  the  burning,  of  one's  home  or  business  premises  is 
now  the  routine  penalty  for  prominence  in  the  Republican  movement. 
The  theory  of  the  matter  is  this:  the  injured  Republican  is  supposed 
to  enter  his  claim  in  the  English  courts  and  have  damages  awarded 
against  his  neighbors  and  friends  by  decree  against  the  County  Coun- 
cil. For  the  most  part  no  claims  are  lodged  in  such  cases.  Some  few 
lodge  claims,  but  merely  for  the  purpose  of  record.  The  damage  done 
by  Crown  forces  in  Ireland  must  now  amount  to  many  millions  of 
pounds,  so  that  even  on  the  assumption  of  payment  out  of  the  'grants' 
that  have  been  withheld,  it  would  take  many  years  to  compensate  these 
victims  of  Black-and-Tan  playfulness.  The  'grants'  are  being  with- 
held because  the  Councils  would  not  agree  to  include  in  the  rates  sums 
awarded  for  these  'Criminal  and  Malicious  Injuries.'  It  was  only 
after  the  announcement  of  the  English  Government  that  these  'grants' 
would  not  be  paid  that  Dail  Eireann  decided  to  call  on  the  public  bodies' 
to  cut  clear  from  the  English  Local  Government  Board  and  to  func- 
tion henceforth  solely  under  the  authority  of  the  Local  Government 
Department  of  Dail  Eireann.  That  course  was  not  taken  earlier  be- 
cause the  Ministry  of  Dail  Eireann  was  reluctant  to  put  on  already 
heavily  overburdened  people  the  additional  strain  that  the  loss  of  these 
'grants'  would  involve.  When  the  'grants'  were  no  longer  a  factor  in 
the  situation,  it  was  felt  that  the  only  adequate  retort  was  to  cut  clear 
from  the  foreign  institution." 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  As  I  understand  it,  they  were  going 
to  pay  the  fines  for  malicious  injuries  out  of  these  grants?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  But  I  thought  that  under  the  Malicious  Injuries  Act  damages 
had  to  be  paid  by  the  community?  A.  Mr.  Manly:  But  these  grants 
were  given  to  the  communities  by  the  Local  Government  Board. 

Q.  We  were  told  before  that  if  a  malicious  injury  suit  was  won, 
the  damages  had  to  be  paid  for  out  of  the  funds  of  that  locality.  A. 
Mr.  Manly:  Yes,  but  this  is  a  grant  to  that  locality. 

A.  Miss  Bennett:  Well,  I  think  this  explains  it:  they  would  not 
strike  a  rate  to  pay  for  the  malicious  injuries,  so  the  Local  Govern- 
ment Board  said,  "Very  well,  if  you  will  not  pay  it  out  of  the  rates, 
we  will  take  it  out  of  the  grants." 

The  Witness  (continuing  reading)  : 

IRISH  PUBLIC  BODIES  RENOUNCE  ENGLISH 
CONTROL 

"On  the  order  of  Dail  Eireann,  the  public  bodies  of  Ireland  ceased 
all  communication  with  the  English  Local  Government  Board.  Min- 
utes of  meetings  and  all  other  returns  that  it  was  customary  to  make 
to  that  institution  were  forwarded  instead  to  the  Local  Government 
Department  of  Dail  Eireann,  which  now  began  to  develop  to  meet  the 
requirements  of  the  new  situation.  Auditors  of  the  English  Depart- 
ment were  refused  access  to  the  accounts  of  public  bodies;  their  in- 
spectors were  refused  entry  to  public  institutions,  and  local  adminis- 
tration in  Ireland  entered  definitely  on  a  new  phase. 

"The  English  Government  is  now  stating  that  the  'grants'  are  being 


1019 

withheld  from  Irish  public  bodies  because  they  refuse  to  submit  their 
accounts  to  audits  by  officials  of  the  English  Local  Government  Board. 
This  is  not  correct.  The  public  bodies  of  Ireland  did  not  repudiate 
and  were  not  asked  to  repudiate  the  English  Local  Government  Board 
until  the  'grants'  in  aid  of  local  administration  were  withheld.  The 
present  position  is  that  the  Irish  public  bodies  are  functioning  in  non- 
recognition  of  the  English  Local  Government  Board,  and  in  full  and 
complete  recognition  of  and  obedience  to  the  Local  Government  De- 
partment of  Dail  Eireann.  Control  of  the  internal  administration  of 
Ireland  has  passed  from  the  English  to  the  native  government,  from 
the  Government  based  on  the  sword  and  bullet  to  the  Government 
based  on  the  people's  will. 

RIGOROUS  ECONOMIES  AND  REFORMS  EFFECTED 

"But  the  financial  position  is  undeniably  serious.  Let  it  be  remem- 
bered that  all  the  estimates  for  the  current  year  were  made  on  the  as- 
sumption that  the  'grants'  would  be  paid  as  heretofore.  Despite  the 
most  rigid  economy  and  schemes  of  reform  which  show  the  adminis- 
trative genius  of  the  people,  the  loss  of  the  million  and  a  half  pounds 
is  being  keenly  felt.  Finance  is  the  essence  of  the  situation.  The 
economies  and  reforms  are  for  the  most  part  of  a  kind  that  will  take 
some  time  to  bear  fruit.  Take  the  most  important  one  that  is  adopted, 
the  scheme  for  the  pooling  of  contracts  by  the  public  bodies.  Hitherto 
each  local  authority  contracted  for  its  own  needs  and  for  the  public 
institutions  under  its  care.  The  new  scheme  is  to  have  the  contracts 
for  all  the  public  bodies  and  public  institutions  of  Ireland  made 
through  a  Central  Purchasing  Committee  in  the  Capital.  It  is  obvious 
that  by  contracting  and  purchasing  in  very  large  quantities,  instead  of 
having  each  local  authority  contracting  in  small  quantities  for  its  own 
needs,  a  very  great  saving  can  be  effected.  Moreover,  it  is  hoped  that 
this  scheme  will  give  much  needed  support  and  stimulus  to  native 
industries." 

Commissioner  Addams:  Thank  you  very  much.  I  think  that  gives 
us  the  clearest  idea  we  have  had  of  the  conditions  of  the  local  gov- 
ernment in  Ireland.  I  think  that  is  all  now,  unless  you  have  some 
questions  to  ask,  Mr.  Manly? 

Mr.  Manly:     No,  we  can  take  that  up  this  afternoon. 

Commissioner  Addams:  All  right.  Then  we  will  reconvene  at 
two. 

(Thereupon,  at  12:48  P.  M.,  the  Commission  adjourned  for  the 
noon  recess.) 

2:08  P.  M. 

Commissioner  Addams  (presiding)  :  The  Commission  will  be  in 
session.  The  two  Irish  ladies  who  testified  this  morning  have  still 
two  topics  to  give  us. 

TESTIMONY   ON   RECALL   OF   MISS   LOUIE 
BENNETT 

Miss  Bennett:  One  is  the  influence  of  the  recent  Labor  movement, 
and  its  influence  on  the  general  situation ;  and  the  other  is  this  much 
vexed  question  of  the  religious  issue, — how  far  the  religious  issue 
enters  into  the  general  situation. 


1020 

Commissioner  Addams:  Miss  Bennett  is  identified  with  the  Labor 
movement  in  Ireland  in  various  ways,  and  will  give  us  this  topic. 

The  Witness:  Miss  Addams,  I  am  just  not  quite  sure  what  the 
Commission  would  like  to  know  with  regard  to  the  Labor  movement. 
Is  it  just  the  action  that  it  has  taken  in  this  recent  conflict? 

Q.  I  think  so;  its  action  in  the  recent  conflict  and  its  influence 
in  the  conflict  that  has  gone  on.     A.     Yes. 

Q.  And  the  possibility  of  changing  that  somewhat  in  character 
owing  to  the  existence  of  the  Labor  movement.    A.    Yes,  yes. 

STRENGTH    OF    IRISH    LABOR    MOVEMENT 

It  is  so  extremely  difficult  to  gauge  the  forces  of  the  Labor 
movement  in  Ireland  at  the  present  time,  because  the  interests  of  the 
people  seem  to  be  so  much  absorbed  in  the  purely  political  question. 
The  trades  unions  have  grown  enormously  in  the  last  five  years,  and 
one  might  say  that  the  workers  of  Ireland  are  well  organized,  and 
they  are  organizing  fastly  in  one  large  union,  the  Irish  Transport 
Union,  which  was  Larkin's  union  originally,  and  was  just  meant  for 
general  workers,  for  unskilled  workers.  But  since  Larkin's  time  the 
Transport  Workers  have  enlarged  their  scope,  and  are  taking  in  all 
classes  of  people,  men  and  women  both.  And  there  is  no  doubt  but 
that  the  Transport  Workers  have  considerable  power  in  the  country 
at  the  present  time;  and  I  should  think  they  will  have  greater  power 
in  the  future  when  things  are  more  settled. 

IRISH   BRANCHES  SEPARATING  FROM   ENGLISH 
UNIONS 

One  other  point  in  regard  to  the  Labor  movement  in  Ireland. 
There  are  two  classes  of  trades  unions:  there  are  what  we  call  the 
amalgamated  unions  and  the  branches,  as  well  as  the  purely  Irish 
unions.  The  amalgamated  unions  are  branches  of  the  English 
unions.  And  during  the  past  year  there  has  been  a  very  strong 
movement  among  the  Irish  workers  to  break  away  from  the  English 
workers — the  amalgamated  unions,  so  that  there  shall  be  only  Irish 
unions  in  Ireland.  The  most  remarkable  break  in  that  line  is  the 
A.  S.  E., — Associated  Society  of  Engineers,  a  very  strong  union ; 
and  all  of  the  men  of  the  engineering  works  in  Ireland  were  origi- 
nally in  this  English  union,  the  Irish  branch  of  the  A.  S.  E.  But  in 
the  early  part  of  1920  a  group  broke  away  from  the  A.  S.  E.  and 
formed  an  Irish  union;  and  in  the  nine  or  ten  months  since  this  was 
organized  they  have  drawn  in  a  very  strong  lot  of  the  engineering- 
workers  in  southern  Ireland.  Indeed,  people  up  in  Ulster, — 1  am  not 
speaking  now  of  the  Ulster  situation  at  all;  but  a  number  of  the 


1021 

workers  in  Ulster  have  joined  the  new  Irish  union.  And  they  have 
bought  for  themselves  a  very  large,  fine  house  in  Dublin  for  head- 
quarters. Another  large  union  is  the  N.  U.  R.,  the  National  Union  of 
Railwaymen.  The  railwaymen  are  all  organized  in  a  branch  of  the 
English  National  Union  of  Railwaymen;  but  the  trend  of  the  whole 
labor  movement  in  Ireland  at  the  present  time  is  to  become  inde- 
pendent of  the  English  trade  unionists,  and  the  railwaymen  arc 
bound  to  break  away  in  a  short  time.  But  strange  to  say.  while  this 
movement  persists,  a  much  closer  relation  between  the  British  Trades 
Unions  Congress  and  the  Irish  Trades  Unions  Congress  has  been  se1 
up.  Today  the  official  Labor  Party, — the  Irish  Labor  Party,  is  work- 
ing on  a  similar  policy  for  a  close  association  with  the  British  Labor 
Party.  But  at  the  same  time,  among  the  rank  and  file  there  is  a 
strong  tendency  to  break  away  from  British  trades  unionists. 

BRITISH   LABOR   PARTY   ACKNOWLEDGES   IRE 
LAND'S   RIGHT   TO   SELF-DETERMINATION 

Of  course  you  know  very  well  the  attitude  that  the  British  Labor 
Party  have  taken  towards  Ireland  lately.  They  had  a  mission  to  Ire- 
land in  the  spring,  and  they  made  another  investigation  lately;  and 
they  have  gradually  come  around  to  the  view  of  the  Irish  Labor 
Party  with  regard  to  the  Irish  situation.  When  Henderson  and  his 
party  first  came  to  Ireland  in  the  spring,  they  would  not  hear  any- 
thing else  but  dominion  home  rule; — that  Ireland  should  have  the 
right  of  self-determination  outside  the  Empire,  they  could  not  see 
that.  And  they  said  it  was  inconceivable  that  any  group  of  people 
in  the  world  should  be  so  extraordinarily  stupid  as  to  wish  to  stand 
outside  the  great  and  noble  British  Empire.  And  when  we  brought 
up  the  crimes  of  British  imperialism,  and  proved  that  it  was  guilty 
in  common  with  all  other  imperialism,  they  said,  "No.  our  great 
British  Empire  is  not  guilty  of  any  such  thing."  They  would  not 
believe  it.  But  this  time  when  they  came  over  they  saw  the  neces- 
sity of  acknowledging  the  Irish  people's  right  to  self-determination 
outside  the  Empire.  But  I  am  sure  that  in  the  bottom  of  Mr.  Hen- 
derson's heart  there  still  lurks  a  desire  that  Ireland  should  stav 
within  the  British  Empire. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Was  Mr.  Henderson  a  member  of  both 
Commissions?     A.     Yes,  he  was. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  And  they  have  just  printed  their 
second  report?     A.     Yes. 

RANK  AND   FILE  OF  IRISH  LABOR  WHOLLY 
ABSORBED  IN  POLITICAL  STRUGGLE 

Now,  with  regard  to  Irish  Labor  policy.  I  should  say  thai  the 
rank  and  file  are  too  much  absorbed  by  the  national  political  situa- 


1022 


tion  to  be  much  concerned  about  other  matters.  The  leaders  have  a 
progressive  program  in  the  back  of  their  minds,  but  they  cannot 
put  it  forward  at  the  present  time, — I  mean  by  that  a  more  socialistic 
program.  They  cannot  put  it  forward  at  the  present  time  because 
of  the  absorption  of  the  rank  and  file  with  the  political  position. 
The  real  desire  of  the  rank  and  file  is  not  so  much  for  social  reform 
now  as  it  is  for  changed  political  conditions.  The  rank  and  file  have 
taken  political  action  and  brought  about  certain  changes  which  have 
never  originated  with  the  leaders  or  been  desired  by  them,  but  has 
come  from  the  rank  and  file  itself.  That  has  happened  in  three 
cases.  The  first  was  the  case  in  Limerick  where  a  policeman  was 
shot  in  conflict  with  a  Sinn  Feiner.  The  friends  of  the  Sinn  Feiner, 
— he  was  in  a  prison  hospital,  tried  to  get  into  the  hospital  and  res- 
cue him.  The  boy  was  shot  in  his  bed  where  he  lay,  and  a  police- 
man was  also  shot.  That  gave  rise  to  the  action  of  the  British  Gov- 
ernment that  nobody  could  go  outside  the  city  without  a  permit. 
Well,  some  of  the  biggest  factories  of  Limerick  lie  outside  the  city; 
and  the  British  Government  demanded  that  they  ask  for  a  permit  in 
order  to  go  from  their  homes  out  to  their  work  outside  the  city 
every  morning.  The  workers  refused  to  ask,  without  the  consent  of 
their  leaders,  and  said  they  would  not  go  to  work  if  they  had  to  ask 
the  British  Government  for  a  permit.  Thomas  Johnson,  who  was 
secretary  of  the  Irish  Labor  Party,  went  down  to  Limerick  to  get 
this  straightened  out. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  It  was  not  a  strike  against  the  em- 
ployers at  all,  but  against  the  regulations?  A.  Yes,  against  the 
regulation.  But  in  the  end  they  were  beaten  for  want  of  funds.  I 
think  it  was  due  to  some  mistake  made  in  the  organization,  but  any- 
way, they  were  beaten.  But  this  permit  order  was  rescinded.  It 
was  not  carried  on.  That  was  the  first  stand  made  against  the  Gov- 
ernment by  the  workers  themselves. 

The  second  occasion  was  the  motor  restriction  made  the  first  of 
this  vear.  Very  complicated  and  strict  restrictions  were  made  upon 
taxi  and  motor  drivers,  the  Government  said  with  a  view  to  prevent 
them  carrying  the  "rebels"  and  aiding  "these  outrages."  The  taxi 
drivers  went  on  strike  against  this  permit  order.  The  Union  took  it 
ur>,  and  it  had  to  be  taken  up  very  much  more  generally  than  among 
the  drivers  themselves,  for  many  of  the  motor  drivers  are  members 
of  the  Transport  Union,  and  it  became  a  rather  large  strike.  But 
the  officials  of  the  Labor  movement,  I  think,  did  not  like  this  strike, 
and  they  didn't  want  it  to  go  very  far.  It  went  on  for  several  weeks, 
and  it  was  settled  in  the  end  in  a  compromise.    Neither  side  gave  in. 


1023 

LABOR    COMPELS    RELEASE    OF    HUNGER 
STRIKERS 

Before  I  tell  you  about  the  third  case  of  strike  without  the  leaders' 
consent,  I  want  to  say  that  the  Labor  movement  now  involves  con- 
siderable solidarity.  Whenever  a  labor  question  arises, — for  in- 
stance, when  there  was  a  large  number  of  Irish  workers  on  hunger 
strike  in  Mountjoy  prison,  then  the  Labor  Party  called  for  a  general 
strike. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  is,  the  Irish  Labor  Party?  A. 
Yes,  the  Irish  Labor  Party-  The  Labor  Party  called  for  a  general 
strike  to  compel  the  Government  to  release  these  hunger  strikers. 
The  response  to  it  was  instantaneous  and  general,  although  it  meant 
danger  of  dismissal  and  loss  of  money  and  everything  else.  But  I 
can  speak  of  my  own  trade  union  women :  there  was  not  a  single 
case  in  which  the  workers  objected  to  refuse  to  work.  That  strike 
went  on  for  three  days,  when  the  hunger  strikers  were  released. 
There  was  tremendous  enthusiasm  in  Dublin  over  that  strike.  You 
know  the  people  were  all  outside  the  prison  praying.  The  day  the 
hunger  strikers  were  released,  I  could  not  get  up  there  myself,  but 
I  know  of  the  demonstration.  There  was  a  marvelous  demonstra- 
tion. The  people  were  so  tremendously  serious  over  it;  it  was  a 
very  serious  and  solemn  demonstration.  And  one  would  imagine 
that  in  a  general  strike  like  that  there  would  be  all  sorts  of  dis- 
turbances and  the  people  would  get  careless.  Nothing  of  the  sort. 
I  have  been  in  Dublin  in  both  general  strikes,  and  there  has  been 
perfect  quiet  right  throughout  the  city.  There  have  been  no  riots  or 
disturbances  of  any  kind. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Mountjoy  is  a  prison  in  Dublin?  A.  Yes, 
Mountjoy  Prison  is  in  Dublin.  I  do  not  just  remember  what  the 
other  occasion  was,  but  at  any  rate  whenever  there  has  been  a  call 
of  that  kind,  the  people  have  responded  to  it  in  the  same  sort  of  way,' 
with  the  same  spontaneity  and  unanimity. 

IRISH   RAILWAYMEN   STRIKE  AGAINST  TRANS- 
PORT  OF  ARMED   TROOPS  AND   WAR 
MUNITIONS 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Now,  was  the  action  of  the  Railway- 
men  in  refusing  to  carry  munitions,  was  that  spontaneity,  or  was  that 
ordered?  A.  I  was  going  to  tell  you  about  that,  for  that  has  been 
one  of  the  most  interesting  developments  of  the  year.  I  have  notes 
here  on  how  that  originated.  You  know,  until  this  year  there  has 
not  been  any  strong  feeling  against  the  soldiers  in  Ireland, — I  mean 
as  individuals.  Of  course  there  is  a  strong  opposition  to  the  army 
of  occupation.     But  between  individuals  there  has  been  a  lot  of  good 


1024 

feeling.    Bitterness  has  only  arisen  between  the  people  and  the  army 
since  the  Black-and-Tans  came  along.     It  was  May  13,  1920.     You 
may  remember  that  the  question  arose  of  the  threatened  war  with 
Russia,  and  the  workers  of  England  refused  to  carry  munitions  of 
war  for  Poland  to  use  against  Russia.     And  the  workers  of  Ireland 
then, — some  of  the  dockers  and  some  of  the  railwaymen,  said :  "Why 
should  not  we  refuse  to  carry  munitions  of  war  for  the  British  to 
fight  against  our  own   people?"      And  this  strike   originated   quite 
suddenly  upon  the  docks  among  the  workers  of  the  Transport  Union. 
On  May  20th  they  refused  to"  discharge  war  material  from  a  steamer 
on  the  North  Wharf.     The  British  dockers  had  already  refused,  on 
May    15th,   in   fact  to   load  the   Jolly  George  with   munitions   for 
Poland.     Then  on  May  21st  J.  H.  Thomas,  the  National  Union  of 
Railwaymen's  executive,  said  he  had  ordered  the  British  railwaymen 
not  to  handle  the  munitions  for  Poland.     On  the  24th  the  Cork  rail- 
waymen took  it  up,  and  said  they  would  refuse  to  handle  munitions 
for  Ireland,  and  they  started  the  railway  strike  in  that  way.     The 
Labor  Party  realized  that  this  strike  was  likely  to  become  an  ex- 
tremely big  and  serious  thing,   and  they  decided  that  they  would 
limit  it  as  far  as  possible.     And  they  decided  that  they  would  not 
call  out  all  the  men;  they  limited  it  as  far  as  possible.     And  the 
limitation   meant  this, — that   it  was   only   when    armed   soldiers   or 
Black-and-Tans  boarded  the  trains  that  the  engine  driver  should  re- 
fuse to  drive  that  train.     That  is  how  the   thing  was   carried   out 
everywhere.     Whenever  the  armed   military  boarded  the  train,  the 
driver  or  guard  refused  that  the  train  should  go;  and  then  the  en- 
gine driver  or  the  guard  were  dismissed.     It  did  not  mean  that  the 
whole  crew  would  be  dismissed.     So  for  a  long  time  they  kept  this 
strike  within  certain  bounds.     But  the  military  forces  kept  on.     On 
certain  lines  they  persistently  boarded  the  trains  time  after  time,  and 
the  trains  got  held  up.     And  gradually  sections  of  the  lines,  except 
in  the  north,   and  even  some  of  the  side  lines  in  the  north,  were 
closed  up;  and  trains  were  limited  on  the  other  lines.    vAnd  grad- 
ually, of  course,  we  were  getting  in  a  kind  of  strangle-hold  regard- 
ing the  railroad  traffic.     The  numbers  of  men  out  were  increasing 
every  week.     The  response  for  funds  for  these  men  throughout  the 
country  was  very  unusual.     Right  from  the  beginning  of  this  strike 
to  the  end  they  were  able  to  pay  each  man  at  least  two  pounds  a 
week.     Some  of  the  men  got  three  pounds  a  week,  but  no  man  got 
less  than  two  pounds  a  week  who  was  out  of  work.     The  last  week 
of  the  strike  it  meant  that  they  were  paying  out  £700,000  a  week. 
And  none  of  this  money  was   paid   out  by  the  National   Union  of 
Railwaymen,  because  they  said  it  was  an  illegal   strike.     The  men 
had  no  right  to   come   out  on   strike  without  the   consent  of   their 
leaders.     Some  of  the  English  unions  contributed,  but  the  great  mass 
was  contributed  by  the  Irish  unions  themselves. 


1025 

LABOR    PLANS    FOOD    SUPPLY    FOR    NATION 

In  the  beginning  of  November  Mr.  Geddes  announced  that  if  the 
railwaymen  continued  to  refuse  to  handle  munitions,  all  the  rail- 
roads in  Ireland  would  be  closed  down.  And  this  was  the  issue  that 
the  Irish  railwaymen  had  to  face:  the  complete  shut-down  of  the 
Irish  railways.  Various  plans  went  on  behind  the  scenes.  A  trade 
union  congress  was  called  late  in  November  to  decide  what  they 
were  going  to  do.  Meanwhile,  the  Irish  Labor  Party  were  in  touch 
with  Dail  Eireann  and  other  members  of  Sinn  Fein  drawing  up 
plans  as  to  what  they  would  do  in  the  event  of  the  closing  down  of 
the  railways.  Thomas  Johnson  himself  told  me  that  they  had  quite 
complete  plans  drawn  up  for  the  continuing  of  the  food  supply.  It 
had  to  be  a  very  elaborate  business.  The  coast  towns  were  all  right, 
because  they  could  arrange  to  carry  food  by  boat.  Inland  it  was  a 
very  difficult  problem,  but  they  had  all  their  plans  made,  and  the 
committee  had  gone  into  it  very  carefully  and  had  decided  in  detail 
what  would  be  done.  The  Government  raided  their  offices  then  and 
carried  away  their  plans.  They  also  brought  out  a  very  drastic 
motor  order,  which  meant — and  it  is  still  in  effect — that  motor  traffic 
could  not  be  carried  on  in  a  wider  area  than  twenty  miles  outside  of 
the  district  in  which  this  particular  motor  was  registered.  So  that 
meant  that  motor  traffic  could  not  be  used  in  the  event  of  the  closing 
down  of  the  railways.     Some  other  method  had  to  be  used. 

TRADE  UNION   CONGRESS   SUPPORTS 
MUNITIONS  STRIKE 

Then  they  had  this  Trade  Union  Congress.  I  will  see  if  I  have 
the  date.  I  know  it  was  in  November.  The  Trade  Union  Congress 
was  held  on  November  16th.  The  Trade  Union  Congress  was  a 
Congress  of  all  the  workers  of  Ireland,  not  to  order  the  railwaymen 
as  to  what  they  should  do,  but  to  express  the  wish  of  the  Irish  Labor 
movement  as  to  what  they  thought  it  would  be  well  for  the  railway- 
men  to  do,  whether  they  were  to  give  in  or  whether  they  should  con- 
tinue that  strike  against  the  carrying  of  munitions.  It  was  a  very 
large  Congress.  There  was  close  to  a  thousand  delegates  there.  It 
was  a  very  serious  and  a  very  quiet  Congress,  the  most  serious  of 
any  congress  I  have  ever  attended.  It  did  not  have  the  great  en- 
thusiasm of  some  previous  congresses.  Thomas  Johnson,  who  was 
the  secretary  of  the  Union,  put  the  case  before  them  in,  I  may  say, 
a  very  fine  and  idealistic  way,  and  he  got  a  tremendous  response. 
That  strike  was  going  to  affect  every  man  in  the  place,  because  a 
railway  strike  means  not  only  that  the  railwaymen  would  go  out, 
but  that  every  man  there  would  go  out  on  account  of  the  closing- 
down  of  industry.     The  Congress  went  on  all  day  long,  and  in  the 


1026 

end  they  recommended  that  the  railwaymen  should  stick  it  out  and 
should  refuse  to  handle  munitions.  I  will  read  you  now  the  resolu- 
tion that  was  carried.  First  of  all,  this  resolution  was  carried  ad- 
vising the  railwaymen  to  hold  out;  but  I  should  add  that  in  the  rail- 
way union  there  are  a  group  of  older  men,  a  kind  of  stolid  lot  of 
men,  and  this  older  group  was  in  favor  of  giving  in.  They  moved 
that  an  honorable  settlement  should  be  made,  but  they  did  not  say 
what  that  meant, — they  did  not  know  what  they  themselves  meant 
by  "an  honorable  settlement."  And  of  course,  Mr.  Thomas  of  the 
English  Railwaymen's  Union,  his  policy  was  that  they  should  give 
in  and  carry  munitions.  But  the  Congress  did  not  give  in;  they  de- 
cided they  would  support  the  Irish  railwaymen  to  the  very  end.  I 
remember  there  was  one  man  from  Donegal  who  said,  "We  have  got 
to  stick  it  out,  and  if  we  have  got  to  run  across  the  fields  and  carry 
the  food  on  our  bare  backs,  why,  then  we  will  stick  it  out."  And 
that  was  the  spirit  of  the  people.  We  women  were  criticized  be- 
cause we  also  encouraged  the  men  to  stick  it  out, — we  women  dele- 
gates who  were  there  at  that  time. 

IRISH  LABOR  INDORSES   SETTLEMENT   DRAFTED 
BY   BRITISH   LABOR   PARTY 

But  also  at  that  Congress  they  drafted  a  platform  that  had  some 
very  important  and  interesting  points  in  it.     (Reading)  : 

"This  Conference,  representative  of  organized  labor  in  Ireland,  wel- 
comes that  statement  of  policy  made  by  the  leader  of  the  Labor  Party 
in  the  House  of  Commons,  Mr.  Adamson,  speaking  on  behalf  of  the 
British  Labor  Movement,  in  declaring  for  : 

"(1)   The  withdrawal  of  the  British  armed  forces  from  Ireland; 

"(2)  The  calling  of  a  Constituent  Assembly  elected  on  the  basis  of 
proportional  representation  by  a  free,  equal,  and  secret  vote ; 

"(3)  That  such  assembly  should  draw  up  a  Constitution  for  Ireland, 
on  the  understanding  that  such  Constitution  shall  be  made  operative, 
subject  only  to  two  conditions,  namely,  that  it  affords  protection  to 
minorities,  and  that  the  Constitution  shall  prevent  Ireland  from  be- 
coming a  military  or  naval  menace. 

"This  Conference  declares,  on  behalf  of  the  Irish  Labor  Movement, 
its  readiness  to  advocate  the  acceptance  of  this  policy  as  being  the  ful- 
filment of  Ireland's  demand  for  the  right  to  choose  and  decide  its  own 
form  of  government,  and  assures  the  British  workers  that  the  realiza- 
tion of  the  policy  outlined  will  lead  to  good-will  and  fraternity  be- 
tween the  two  peoples. 

"And  further,  we  indorse  the  statement  already  made  by  our  Na- 
tional Executive  to  the  leaders  of  the  British  Trade  Union  Move- 
ment, that  the  only  obstacle  to  peace  and  good  order  in  Ireland  is  the 
presence  of  the  British  armed  forces;  and  we  indorse  with  confidence 
the  assurance  they  have  given  that  the  withdrawal  of  these  forces 
from  any  district,  leaving  responsibility  and  power  for  the  mainte- 
nance of  order  to  the  popularly  elected  representatives,  will  secure 
peace  and  good  government  in  that  district." 


1027 

IRELAND  NOT  INTERESTED  IN  AGGRESSIVE  WAR 

The  Witness:  Now,  there  are  two  points,  of  course,  in  regard  to 
this  resolution.  And  one  point  was  raised  in  particular, — that  it 
meant  that  Ireland  would  have  no  power  over  the  army  or  navy, 
and  would  have  no  army  or  navy  of  its  own.  And  some  of  the 
members  of  the  Congress  raised  that  point  and  objected.  They 
were  not  prepared  to  yield  that  right.  But  other  speakers  replied 
that  in  the  future  the  Republic  of  Ireland  would  not  want  to  have 
armed  forces;  that  Ireland  would  have  enough  to  do  with  a  con- 
structive policy  to  build  up  her  own  nation ;  that  she  was  not  out 
for  war;  and  that  it  was  the  business  of  the  Labor  Party  of  each 
country  to  see  that  aggressive  war — and  that  would  be  the  only  kind 
of  war  in  which  Ireland  was  interested — should  be  abolished.  And 
there  were  only  three  dissensions  to  that  policy  in  that  Labor  Con- 
gress. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  That  was  in  November,  1920?  A. 
Yes,  November  16,  1920. 

MUNITIONS  STRIKE  CANCELLED  TO  PREVENT 
SUFFERING  OF  PEOPLE 

Well,  then,  it  meant  that  in  the  meantime  this  committee  that  was 
arranging  for  the  transport  of  food  should  go  on  with  its  work.  It 
was  urged  that  a  committee  should  be  appointed  from  the  Congress 
to  lay  the  case  of  the  striking  railwaymen  before  the  British  labor 
unions  and  get  their  support.  But  the  thing  went  on  for  several 
weeks,  up  to  Sunday,  November  21st.  On  Sunday,  November  21st, 
14  British  officers  were  shot  down  in  Dublin,  the  British  Government 
said  by  Sinn  Feiners.  Well,  you  know,  of  course,  the  feeling  that 
aroused,  and  Dublin  was  put  under  the  strictest  kind  of  martial 
law.  On  Monday  night  I  know  there  were  many  people  who  never 
got  home  at  all;  they  were  held  up  by  the  armed  forces.  The  whole 
city  was  raided,  and  large  numbers  were  arrested.  There  were 
wholesale  arrests,  including  some  of  the  most  important  members 
of  this  food  committee ;  and  others  of  them  had  to  be  so  much  on  the 
run  that  it  was  not  possible  for  them  to  get  together  at  all.  The 
arrests  were  simply  extraordinary  in  the  wholesale  and  arbitrary 
way  they  were  made.  When  the  raiders  closed  down  on  the  mem- 
bers of  this  committee,  and  the  men  who  held  the  strings  of  the  food 
supply  were  arrested,  it  meant  that  the  food  supply  had  to  be  prac- 
tically in  the  hands  of  the  Irish  Volunteers.  And  if  they  could  not 
act,  the  thing  could  not  be  done.  The  Labor  Party  office  was  raided 
and  everything  they  had  was  taken  from  it,  as  well  as  the  plans  of 
the  food  supply  committee.  But  still  they  did  not  give  in.  And 
then  came  the  burning  of  Cork,   and  the  proclamation   of  martial 


1028 

law  throughout  many  districts.  And  then  Tom  Johnson  and  several 
other  leaders  told  me  that  to  call  a  strike  at  that  time  would  leave 
the  people  too  much  at  the  mercy  of  the  armed  forces,  and  would 
put  them  in  a  very  bad  position.  And  therefore  the  strike  was 
called  off. 

But  we  who  were  pacifists  and  who,  I  might  say,  were  in  favor 
of  a  constitutional  movement  against  the  British  Government,  were 
very  much  disappointed,  because  we  felt  that  the  energies  of  the 
Volunteers  would  be  called  wholly  into  the  distribution  of  food 
supply,  and  they  would  be  so  busy  with  that  that  other  things  could 
not  be  done.  A  movement  of  that  sort  would  have  proved  so  com- 
pletely that  the  people  were  behind  the  Republican  Government 
that  the  British  Government  could  no  longer  claim  that  it  was  only 
a  matter  of  capturing  "the  murder  gang"  and  the  whole  thing  would 
be  ended.  It  would  have  shown  that  the  men  and  the  women  and 
the  children  of  the  nation  were  all  in  it.  It  seems  to  me  that  it  was 
a  pity  the  thing  could  not  be  carried  out,  because  it  would  have 
been  a  very  fine  and  effective  demonstration  of  the  unanimity  of  the 
Irish  people. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  question  on  that 
point,  Miss  Bennett.  Of  course  the  refusal  of  the  employees  to 
carry  armed  soldiers  or  munitions  of  war  resulted  in  the  stoppage 
of  the  running  of  trains,  did  it  not?     A.     Yes,  it  did. 

Q.  Did  that  react  very  severely  on  the  people  in  the  way  of  get- 
ting supplies?  A.  It  did  not  react  so  badly  on  the  getting  of  food, 
but  it  threw  a  good  many  workers  out  of  work  and  made  it  difficult 
for  them.     And  certainly  business  men  felt  it  very  keenly. 

Q.  Did  it  result  in  hardship  on  the  people  generally?  A.  Well, 
I  would  not  say  that  it  did.  It  did  in  special  cases,  but  I  would  not 
say  in  a  general  way.     It  had  not  gone  so  far  as  that. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  one  of  the  reasons  for  the  failure  of  the 
railway  strike  was  the  hardships  that  it  would  involve?  I  mean,  of 
course,  the  hardships  upon  their  own  people.  A.  No,  I  don't  think 
it  was,  because  they  were  prepared  for  that. 

Q.  But  do  you  think  that  that  was  one  of  the  reasons  for  calling 
off  the  strike?  A.  Well,  I  think  they  realized  that  on  account  of 
the  condition  of  the  country  at  that  juncture  that  it  would  finally 
result  in  serious  hardship  for  a  great  many  people. 

Q.  Had  it  resulted  in  any  serious  hardship  up  to  that  time?  A. 
No,  not  up  to  that  time;  nothing  serious.  And  of  course  the  men 
were  being  paid  such  an  allowance  that  they  did  not  feel  any  great 
hardship  up  to  that  time. 

Q.  But  I  meant  the  people  of  the  country?  A.  No,  no;  it  had 
not  gone  on  that  far.  In  isolated  districts,  perhaps,  but  not  gen- 
erally. But  if  it  had  continued,  it  would  have  had  a  very  serious 
effect.     And  I   think  that  much  of  the  unemployment  that  we   are 


1029 

now  suffering  from  is  due  to  the  holding  up  of  supplies  of  all  kinds. 
Is  there  anything  further? 

SERIOUSNESS   OF  UNEMPLOYMENT 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  the  Irish  workers  come  under  the 
British  unemployment  insurance  act?  A.  Yes,  they  did.  Of 
course,  some  of  us  feel  that  the  Irish  Labor  Party  (I  say  that  this 
is  what  some  of  us  feel ;  it  may  not  be  general  I ,  but  some  of  us 
feel  that  the  Irish  Labor  Party  has  not  taken  a  strong  enough  atti- 
tude towards  British  rule  as  it  affects  them.  For  instance,  over  that 
unemployment  benefit,  they  ought  to  have  been  quick  enough  to  get 
up  something  of  their  own  and  not  have  to  take  that  from  England. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  they  had  paid  for  it,  we  understood.  A. 
Yes,  they  paid  for  it;  yes,  yes. 

Q.  But  they  had  paid  for  it  in  past  year,  we  understood.  A. 
No,  this  new  act  was  something  extraordinary  to  meet  the  present 
unemployment.  It  is  very  interesting  how  it  is  clone.  At  first 
when  it  started  workers  who  were  out  of  employment  four  weeks 
were  entitled  to  benefits.  Now  any  unemployment  of  the  worker, 
whether  his  card  is  stamped  or  not,  entitles  him  to  benefits. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams.:  When  was  that  passed?  A.  Just  a 
few  weeks  ago. 

Q.     In  the  English  Parliament?     A.     Yes. 

Q.     Major  Newman:  Does  that  apply  to  Ireland?      A.     Yes. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Are  the  workingmen  taking  it?  A. 
Yes,  they  are.     They  believe  in  taking  all  they  can  get. 

Q.  But  you  have  not  as  much  unemployment  in  Ireland  as  they 
have  in  England?  A.  No,  we  have  not.  But  in  Cork  it  is  now 
very  serious.  And  in  Belfast  it  is  going  to  be  as  serious  as  it  is  in 
England  at  present.  The  shipyards,  and  of  course  the  linen  mills, 
are  going  to  be  held  up. 

Q.  We  have  had  some  testimony  of  the  growth  of  the  labor 
movement  in  Lister,  crossing  over  religious  lines  and  bringing  the 
people  together  in  a  very  interesting  way.  The  Gaelic  League,  it 
seems,  has  done  the  same  thing.  Perhaps,  Miss  Townshend,  you 
would  tell  us  something  about  that? 

CONTINUED  TESTIMONY  OF  MISS 
CAROLINE  TOWNSHEND 

GAELIC   LEAGUE  HAS   OVERCOME   RELIGIOUS 
PREJUDICES 

A.  Miss  Townshend:  Yes,  these  papers,  that  were  sent  on  to  us 
today,  deal  with  that.  Miss  Nellie  O'Brien,  who  is  also  a  Protestant 
Episcopalian,   tells  what   Dr.    Douglas   Hyde,   an    Episcopalian    and 


1030 

for  twenty  years  years  President  of  the  Gaelic  League,  says  about  it. 
But  perhaps  it  is  too  long. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Well,  perhaps  you  can  just  give  its  main 
points  and  put  it  into  the  evidence. 

Miss  Townshend:  Of  course,  she  shows  the  wonderful  way  in 
which  the  Gaelic  League  has  crossed  over  religious  prejudices. 

Commissioner  Addams  (to  the  Commission)  :  Would  you  like  to 
hear  that? 

Q.     Commissioner  Howe:  Is  it  very  long?     A.    Five  or  six  pages. 

Major  Newman:  Well,  we  would  like  to  hear  it. 

Mr.  Manly:  I  will  read  it  if  you  like. 

The  Witness:  Thank  you,  sir. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  understand  that  this  was  sent  to  the 
ladies.    They  had  it  sent  to  me,  but  it  was  for  them  to  give  here. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Mr.  Manly,  I  don't  think  the  record  shows 
who  made  the  report,  and  the  date  of  it. 

A.  Mr.  Manly:  The  report  is  signed  "Nellie  O'Brien,"  who  is  the 
Miss  O'Brien  just  referred  to. 

Miss  Townshend:  Miss  O'Brien  is  one  of  the  original  workers  in 
the  Gaelic  League,  which  is  a  non-sectarian  and  non-political  move- 
ment. Of  course,  I  have  articles  here  showing  what  a  wonderful 
movement  the  Gaelic  League  is. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  And  this  report  here  is  what?  A.  It 
is  a  report  on  the  religious  question.  It  shows  the  relation  of  the 
religious  question  to  the  political  question. 

Q.  That  is,  to  what  extent  the  religious  question  enters  into  the 
present  struggle?  A.  Yes.  She  proves  that  the  religious  question 
does  not  come  into  it  at  all. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  She  is  an  Episcopalian  and  an  or- 
ganizer for  the  Gaelic  League,  as  I  understand  it.     A.     Yes,  she  is. 

Mr.  Manly  (reading)  : 

"PROTESTANTS  AND  NATIONALITY 

"Many  old  standing  fallacies  in  Ireland  which  have  been  carefully 
nurtured  by  British  influence  are  now  being  exploded,  like  the  one  that 
the  country  is  entirely  dependent  on  England  and  could  not  keep  her 
population  alive  out  of  her  own  resources.  The  most  pernicious  of 
all,  however,  is  the  fallacy  that  there  is  an  impassable  gulf  between 
Catholics  and  Protestants,  and  that  the  interests  of  the  different  de- 
nominations are  incompatible.  So  deeply  instilled  is  this  that  we 
hardly  realize  it  ourselves.  Even  when  we  have  not  been  brought  up 
to  hear  our  fellow  Christians  of  another  denomination  spoken  of  as 
almost  outside  the  pale,  we  are  taught  to  treat  them  with  a  self-con- 
scious consideration,  to  elaborately  avoid  any  subjects  which  might  by 
any  possibility  be  held  to  be  controversial,  to  be  on  our  guard  lest  we 
should  hurt  their  feelings  (or  supposed  feelings)  ;  in  short,  instead 
of  the  frank,  free  intercourse  there  should  be  amongst  citizens  of  the 
one  country,  there  is  an  atmosphere  of  being  on  one's  guard,  even  of 
suspicion,  which  poisons  the  mind  of  our  people  by  slow  degrees,  and 
divides    us    more    and    more    into    different    camps.      Protestants    are 


1031 


taught,  for  instance,  to  be  very  careful  not  to  say  anything  which 
might  be  interpreted  as  criticizing  the  priests  ;  while  Catholics  on  the 
other  hand  have  got  into  the  habit  of  thinking  that  they  will  get  no 
sympathy  or  understanding  from  Protestants, — and  small  wonder,  per- 
haps, considering  the  history  of  the  country  and  the  effect  of  a  couple 
of  centuries  of  penal  laws.  No  country  could  thrive  in  this  artificial 
atmosphere,  which  has  a  cramping  effect  on  all  development;  and  of 
course  the  case  is  far  worse  in  the  North,  where  British  statesmen 
have  exploited  the  worst  aspects  of  religious  bigotry. 

SECTARIANISM  FOSTERED  BY  BRITISH 

"It  takes  all  sorts  to  make  a  nation,  and  freedom  of  social  and  in- 
tellectual intercourse  is  essential  to  its  upbuilding.  It  is  precisely  for 
this  reason  that  sectarianism  has  been  sedulously  fostered  by  British 
rule  and  British  influence,  which  has  always  aimed  at  keeping  Ireland 
weak  and  divided  in  order  to  dominate  her  more  easily.  And  this 
influence  has  permeated  our  educational  systems  and  even  our  homes, 
and  has  unconsciously  warped  the  minds  of  many  who  are  by  nature 
of  a  frank  and  liberal  disposition. 

GAELIC  LEAGUE  UNITES   CATHOLICS  AND 

PROTESTANTS 

"It  is  the  aim  of  this  paper  to  show  that  this  state  of  things  is  arti- 
ficial, and  not  really  natural  to  the  Irish  people,  who  when  left  to 
themselves  are  remarkably  free  from  religious  bigotry  or  class  snob- 
bishness, two  evi]  things  which  often  run  side  by  side.  And  the  best 
way  to  prove  this  is  to  consider  what  the  character  of  the  people  is 
showing  itself  to  be  under  the  influence  of  the  Gaelic  League  and  its 
political  counterpart,  Sinn  Fein, — using  the  term  in  its  broadest  na- 
tional sense.  These  two  movements  have  not  so  much  changed  the 
character  of  the  people  ;  rather,  they  have  set  free  its  natural  elements, 
which  were  at  the  point  of  strangulation  by  the  anglicizing  influence 
at  work  in  Ireland  for  so  long.  They  have  in  fact  given  her  back  her 
soul.  With  the  Gaelic  League  came  a  great  and  absorbing  enthusiasm 
which  set  people  of  all  denominations  working  side  by  side  in  fellow- 
ship and  love.  Under  the  sterner  discipline  of  Sinn  Fein,  and  with 
the  stress  of  the  danger  of  national  extermination,  we  are  learning 
still  more  to  trust  each  other.  The  Gaelic  League  left  it  as  a  deeply- 
felt,  only  half-expressed  sentiment.  The  latter  movement  is  leading 
us,  one  might  almost  say  forcing  us,  to  speak  out  our  minds  frankly 
to  each  other  by  the  necessity  of  our  interdependence.  I  write  as  a 
member  of  the  Church  of  Ireland  (Protestant  Episcopal),  and  as 
practical  experience  is  of  more  importance  than  many  generalizations, 
I  will,  even  at  the  risk  of  appearing  somewhat  egotistical,  give  briefly 
some  personal  observations  bearing  on  this  question,  taking  in  suc- 
cession the  different  phases  of  work  for  the  Gaelic  revival  with  which 
I  was  connected.  I  may  mention  in  the  first  place  that  I  was  brought 
up  in  the  sort  of  atmosphere  I  have  attempted  to  describe,  among 
people  who  were  liberal-minded  and  sincerely  patriotic  according  to 
their  lights,  but  who  never  got  away  from  a  feeling  of  utter  hopeless- 
ness about  the  ultimate  destiny  of  Ireland,  and  who  were  in  reality 
entirely  remote  from  the  real  life  of  the  country.  This  feeling  of  dis- 
couragement prevented  my  taking  any  sides  in  politics,  and  the  days 
of  the  industrial  revival  and  of  cooperation  had  hardly  dawned  then, 
nor  would  they  of  themselves  without  the  sentiment  of  nationality 
have  made  any  strong  appeal  to  me.  But  when  I  joined  the  Gaelic- 
League  in  1905  everything  seemed  changed  to  me.  I  found  there  a 
new   life,   hopeful  and  buoyant,   which,   paradoxical   as   it   may   sound. 


1032 


had  yet  its  roots  deep  in  the  past.  Catholic  and  Protestant  met  there 
tor  the  first  time  on  common  ground ;  so  also  did  landlord  and  the 
rank  and  file  of  the  people.  Dr.  Douglas  Hyde,  who  was  President 
of  the  Gaelic  League  from  its  organization  in  1893  to  his  retirement 
in  1915,  is,  as  is  well  known,  a  Protestant,  and  the  son  of  a  Protestant 
clergyman.  He  was  beloved  and  honored  as  much  by  members  of  the 
one  church  as  of  the  other,  by  priests  as  much  as  by  laymen.  The 
Coisde  Gnotha  or  Executive  of  the  League  was  never  without  Prot- 
estants on  it,  of  which  I  had  the  honor  to  be  one;  and  to  say  that  we 
were  made  cordially  welcome  is  far  short  of  the  mark.  There  was 
always  a  feeling  that  a  special  place  was  prepared  for  us,  which  to 
me  at  least  was  very  touching.  At  a  later  period  the  first  place  on 
the  Executive  has  been  gained  by  another  lady,  also  a  member  of  the 
Church  of  Ireland,  who  has  headed  the  list  year  after  year  for  all 
Ireland.  The  work  for  the  Executive  entailed  going  about  the  country 
in  the  summer  to  open  a  Feis  or  help  to  judge  the  competitions,  as 
well  as  sitting  on  committees  in  Dublin.  But  town  and  country  were 
the  same.  I  found  always  the  same  warm  spirit  of  camaraderie  in  the 
Gaelic  cause,  in  the  glens  of  Antrim  or  in  Tyrone  or  in  the  most  west- 
ern part  of  Connaught,  where  I  came  as  a  stranger,  as  well  as  in  my 
native  Limerick,  with  its  sister  counties  of  Clare  and  Kerry. 

OLD   RELIGIOUS    BARRIERS   BROKEN   DOWN 

"I  was  instrumental  in  starting  a  new  branch  of  the  Gaelic  League 
(Craohn  na  g'Cuigi  the  Branch  of  the  Five  Provinces)  in  Dublin, 
the  primary  object  of  which  was  to  get  Protestants  and  people  of  dif- 
ferent political  views  to  the  majority  to  join  in  the  national  movement. 
It  has,  I  am  glad  to  say,  been  very  successful,  and  neither  politics  nor 
religion  have  prevented  it  from  taking  its  place  with  the  other  branches, 
which  have  a  preponderance  of  Roman  Catholics  in  them.  We  worked 
side  by  side,  sometimes  for  years  without  even  knowing  to  what  re- 
ligious persuasion  our  colleagues  belonged.  To  Americans  it  may 
seem  strange  that  one  should  lay  such  stress  on  this,  but  anyone  who 
has  lived  in  Ireland  under  the  old  regime  will  realize  what  the  break- 
ing down  of  the  religious  barriers  has  meant.  Our  Branch  is  also  as 
broadly  democratic  as  any  of  them. 

"When  the  Branch  was  in  good  working  order  I  turned  my  attention 
to  the  founding  of  a  Gaelic  College  in  County  Clare  (O'Curry  Col- 
lege, Carrigaholt),  and  there  again  my  experiences  were  the  same. 
The  lady  who  took  the  most  prominent  part  in  the  organizing  work 
in  the  country,  Miss  Geraldine  Griffin  of  Kilkee,  was  a  Roman  Catho- 
lic; but  she  was  able  to  gather  to  our  support  the  Protestant  rector 
as  well  as  the  local  priests,  and  when  it  was  established  the  bishops 
of  both  denominations  visited  it,  and  certainly  my  own  bishop  got  as 
warm  a  welcome  from  the  students  as  did  the  other. 

"The  next  thing  was  a  tour  of  the  States  with  an  exhibition  of 
Irish  arts  and  crafts  for  the  purpose  of  explaining  to  the  Americans 
by  means  of  lectures,  demonstrations,  and  concerts  what  was  going 
on  in  Ireland,  and  to  make  money  for  the  Gaelic  League.  I  will  only 
say  in  this  connection  that  my  colleagues  for  the  year  and  a  quarter 
that  we  were  there  were  all  Catholics,  but  that  no  question  of  religion 
ever  divided  us,  or  made  my  position  awkward  in  the  smallest  degree. 
The  working  together  in  a  strange  country  intensified  our  feeling  of 
comradeship.  I  believe,  too,  that  the  personnel  of  our  little  band  in 
that  way  evoked  sympathy,  and  was  in  itself  a  demonstration  of  the 
drawing  together  of  all  creeds  and  classes  under  the  Gaelic  League. 


1033 

PROTESTANTS  JOIN  WITH  CATHOLICS  TO  AVERT 
CONSCRIPTION 

"An  interlude,  but  owing  to  the  stress  of  the  times  a  very  stirring- 
interlude  which  had  also  permanent  results,  was  the  stand  made  by  a 
considerable  number  of  Protestants  throughout  the  country  against 
conscription.  It  is  known  to  everyone  how  that  peril,  which  would 
have  meant  the  final  blow  to  the  remnant  of  the  Irish  nation,  was 
averted,  and  how  hard  the  struggle  was.  It  looked  at  first  as  if  the 
Protestants  of  Ireland  were  going  to  stand  aloof  altogether  from  that 
struggle,  and  ignominiously  to  allow  themselves  to  be  classed  with  the 
political  and  religious  bigots  who  were  trying  to  make  capital  out  of 
the  situation.  A  little  band  of  us  then,  mostly  members  of  the  Church 
of  Ireland,  issued  a  manifesto  calling  on  the  Protestants  to  'join  with 
their  Roman  Catholic  fellow-countrymen,'  and  stating  that  it  was 
wrong  to  force  a  nation  against  its  will  and  conscience.  Our  diffi- 
culties were  enormous,  owing  to  the  opposition  of  the  superior  eccle- 
siastics, the  economic  pressure  brought  to  bear  on  many  who  were 
secretly  in  sympathy,  and  the  fact  that  we  could  not  get  a  hearing  in 
the  Unionist  papers.  In  spite  of  everything,  however,  we  made  our- 
selves felt,  and  received  most  touching  tributes  from  all  parts  of  Ire- 
land from  Catholics  who  appreciated  our  efforts,  and  from  Protes- 
tants who  had  no  opportunity  otherwise  of  registering  themselves  pub- 
licly as  being  on  the  national  side. 

A  NON-SECTARIAN  COEDUCATIONAL  SCHOOL 

"I  had  to  do  also  with  a  school  recently  started  outside  Dublin 
(Saint  Brendan's,  Dun  Laoghaire),  where  Protestant  and  Catholic 
children  live  and  do  all  their  lessons  together,  except  religious  in- 
struction, which  is  specially  arranged  for  according  to  the  wishes  of 
the  parents.  It  is  a  bold  experiment, — how  bold  only  those  who  have 
worked  in  Ireland  under  the  old  conditions  will  understand;  but, 
though  small  as  yet,  it  is  getting  on  well  and  has,  I  hope,  a  future  be- 
fore it.  The  head  master  is  a  Protestant,  and  the  principal  assistant 
a  Roman  Catholic.  A  Professor  of  Trinity  College  has  his  girls 
there. — the  school  is  co-educational,  another  innovation  in  Ireland,  as 
well  as  children  of  Catholic  and  Jewish  parents;  and  boys  brought  up 
in  strongly  Unionist  beliefs  sit  side  by  side  with  ardent  little  Sinn 
Feiners. 

GAELICIZING  IRISH  PROTESTANTISM 

"I  come  now  to  the  starting  of  Cumann  na  n'Eaglaise,  the  Irish 
Guild  of  the  Church,  which  from*  this  special  point  of  view  is  by  far 
the  most  important,  as  it  is  a  question  no  longer  of  individual  Prot- 
estants, but  of  a  body  of  members  of  the  Church  of  Ireland  who, 
moved  by  the  isolation  of  their  Church,  have  definitely  taken  up  the 
work  of  Gaelicizing  and  nationalizing  it.  and  bringing  it  into  touch 
with  the  country.  The  Guild  occupies  itself  chiefly  with  conducting 
services  in  Irish  in  one  of  the  principal  churches  in  Dublin,  with 
teaching  the  language  to  members  of  the  congregation  and  others,  and 
in  running  social  and  other  functions  in  which  all  can  join.  It  has 
been  most  cordially  received  by  Gaels  of  other  denominations,  who 
realize  what  uphill  work  it  has  been,  chiefly  on  account  of  the  iden- 
tification in  the  minds  of  most  of  its  higher  ecclesiastics  of  the  Irish 
language  and  ultra-national  politics.  It  issues  a  monthly  magazine 
(The  Gaelic  Churchman),  and  does  a  great  amount  of  propaganda 
work,  and  has  been  successful  in  winning  the  support  of  a  number  of 
the  bishops  and  other  clergy,  who  are  beginning  to  understand  its 
aims.     So  warm  is  the  appreciation  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Gaels  that 


1031 

when  the  Guild  has  occasion  to  get  up  a  sale  or  concert,  they  are  ever 
to  the  fore  to  help,  and  there  is  the  curious  spectacle  of  the  per- 
formers at  a  concert  being  almost  all  Catholics, — they  being  more 
proficient  in  the  national  music  and  dances  than  the  Protestants,  whc 
often  for  the  first  time  come  in  contact  on  these  occasions  with  the 
native  traditions  and  culture.  These  simple  experiences  make  one 
hopeful  for  the  ultimate  blending  of  the  different  parts  of  Irish  life, 
which  for  so  long  seemed  to  jar  hopelessly  with  each  other." 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  May  I  ask  you  where  this  is  written 
from?  A.  Dublin.  But  the  lady  is  from  Clare.  She  has  written 
it  from  Dublin. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  She  is  a  County  Clare  woman?  A.  Yes,  she  is. 
I  might  explain  that  Miss  O'Brien  belongs  to  one  of  our  very  best- 
known  and  finest  families, — a  very  old  family  there. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  And  is  she  describing  conditions  in 
County  Clare?  A.  No,  in  Ireland.  Throughout  all  Ireland.  And 
here  are  a  few  other  very  short  papers. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Shall  I  read  them  for  you?  A.  Yes,  if  you 
please. 

BRITISH  INCITE  RELIGIOUS  FANATICISM  FOR 
POLITICAL  AND  ECONOMIC  PROFIT 

Mr.  Manly:  This  is  signed,  "A  Belfast  Business  Man."  You  know 
personally  who  wrote  it? 

Miss  Townshend:  That  came  from  Miss  O'Brien. 

Mr.  Manly:  This  is  signed  by  a  Belfast  business  man,  a  Protestant: 

"Religious  differences  in  Ireland  benefit  the  English  Government, 
inasmuch  as  that  Government  can  thus  attach  one  side  to  itself.  A 
disunited  people  here  is  England's  greatest  asset.  English  statesmen 
know  that  they  could  not  hold  out  against  a  united  country.  That  is 
one  of  their  secret  reasons  for  partition.  They  fear  that  four  millions 
of  Irishmen  would  have  more  brains  than  thirty-six  millions  of  Brit- 
ish. To  emphasize  our  religious  incompatibilities  is  one  of  their  best 
cards,  both  here  and  in  India.  Some  years  ago,  when  the  Indian 
hill  tribes  rose  in  revolt,  the  English  press  screamed  that  the  tribesmen 
had  invaded  the  Hindoo  or,  Mohammedan  temple  and  'burned  the 
sacred  books.'  That  was  intended  to  enlist  the  owners  of  the  'sacred 
books'  on  the  English  side.  It  was  a  perfect  type  of  English  pro- 
cedure. 

"Belfast  trades  unions  are  very  impotent  because  of  Orange  and 
Green  differences.  Employers  know  that  it  is  to  their  advantage  to 
prevent  a  coalition  of  workers.  Concerted  action  by  the  workers  is 
very  difficult  when  the  employer  or  his  newspaper  tells  the  Orange 
workers  that  any  demand  is  the  result  of  a  'plot  to  dishonor  Ulster.' 
They  are  told  not  to  be  led  by  the  nose  by  'emissaries  of  Rome.'  If 
a  workers'  organization  is  becominng  formidable,  a  riot  has  to  be 
organized.  That  arrests  fraternal  negotiations.  Before  1914  Sir  Ed- 
ward Carson  told  an  English  audience  that  the  majority  behind  him 
in  Belfast  (employers  and  workmen)  were  so  united  that  there  had 
not  been  a  strike  there  for  several  years.  That  is  where  the  advantage 
to  the  employers  came  in.  A  wealthy  man,  by  giving  the  Ulster 
Volunteers  five  hundred  pounds  for  a  drill  hall,  could  save  two  or 
three  thousand  in  the   wages   bill   of   that  year.     These  wealthy  men 


io.i; 


have  the  'front  seats  in  the  synagogue,'  and  pay  well  into  the  Church 
funds.  Consequently  they  expect  the  clergy  to  support  their  'religion 
and  liberties'  in  the  pulpit  and  on  the  platform.  The  clergy  are  too 
often  the  auxiliaries  of  mammon,  while  they  profess  to  preach  Christ. 
Great  is  the  mystery  of  inequity.  The  dupes  are  honest  fanatics,  and 
in  their  ignorance  believe  everything  they  are  told.  They  are  prepared 
to  do  anything  required,  from  the  looting  of  a  convent.  If  there 
were  no  pope  or  no  papists,  eight  out  of  twelve  Belfast  men  would 
be  without  any  religion  at  all.  In  fact,  Belfast  Protestantism  is  not 
a  spiritual  religion  in  any  sense.  It  is  a  fanaticism  exploited  by  poli- 
ticians and  materialists  for  their  own  ends." 

IRISH  PROTESTANTS  WORK  FOR  NATIONAL 
INDEPENDENCE 

Mr.  Manly:  This  one  is  signed  by  "Lily  Williams:'     Who  is  she? 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  want  to  hear  these  without 
signatures?  We  ought  to  have  their  signatures  in  order  to  make 
them  binding. 

A.  Miss  Townshend:  Well,  I  think  we  can  get  the  names  for  you. 
There  is  sometimes  trouble  about  getting  papers  through.  I  think 
that  is  the  reason  they  were  not  signed. 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  think  we  might  go  on  with  them  then. 

Mr.  Manly  (reading)  : 

"It  has  been  the  earnest  wish  of  Protestant  Irish  Ireland  workers 
to  sink  religious  differences  and  everything  that  made  for  division 
among  us  in  the  common  cause  we  all  have  at  heart.  So  successful 
have  we  been  on  our  side  that  British  political  propaganda  has  made 
it  appear  as  though  national  aspirations  were  confined  solely  to  one 
religious  body  in  Ireland,  and  tries  also  to  make  it  appear  that  Prot- 
estants are  antagonistic  to  national  aspirations.  Protestants  in  the 
past  and  Protestants  today  in  larger  numbers  than  in  the  past  are  in 
accord  with  their  fellow-countrymen  in  the  fight  for  independence, 
cooperating  in  every  movement  that  makes  for  a  free  Ireland.  In 
the  elections,  both  parliamentary  and  municipal,  Protestants  it  has 
been  proved  voted  Republican.  Protestants  took  prominent  part  in 
the  Easter  Uprising;  Protestants  are  taking  active  though  inconspicu- 
ous part  today  in  carrying  on  the  fight.  In  all  public  funerals  of  Irish 
martyrs  Protestants  took  part,  thereby  publicly  demonstrating  their 
sympathy  with  the  cause  for  which  the  martyr  died. 

"So  harmoniously  have  Protestants  and  Roman  Catholics  worked 
side  by  side  in  the  Gaelic  League,  oblivious  of  all  religious  differences, 
that  when  organizing  a  lecture  for  propagandist  purposes,  we  Protes- 
tants were  at  a  loss  to  know  which  of  our  members  belonged  to  the 
Protestant  Church  and  which  to  the  Roman  Catholic.  In  error  we 
invited  several  Roman  Catholics  to  help  us,  explaining  that  it  was  a 
lecture  by  Canon  Healy,  Protestant,  and  the  lecture  to  be  held  in  a 
Protestant  school  house.  We  did  not  meet  with  one  refusal  from  our 
Roman  Catholic  fellow-workers.  The  subject  of  Canon  Healy's  lec- 
ture was  traditional  Irish  music,  and  the  best  music  at  the  lecture  was 
supplied  by  Roman   Catholics. 

"In  proportion  to  our  numbers,  to  the  best  of  my  belief.  Protestants 
working  actively  in  Ireland's  cause  compare  very  favorably  with  our 
fellow   Christians   so  engaged. 

(Signed)     "Lily   Williams." 


1036 

Miss  Townshend  ( to  Miss  Bennett )  :  She  is  a  member  of  the 
Women's  International  League,  is  she  not? 

Miss  Bennett:  I  don't  know  her  personally.     She  may  be. 

Miss  Townshend:  Here  is  a  copy  of  The  Gaelic  Churchman. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  want  to  put  that  in?  Is  there 
anything  else  you  want  to  leave,  Miss  Townshend?  A.  Well,  here 
is  another  article  by  a  Protestant  lady,  and  a  long  article  by  Miss 
Nellie  O'Brien. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  just  put  them  in,  if  you  please. 

Miss  Townshend:  And  also  I  have  a  pamphlet  by  Countess  Desart, 
Lady  Desart,  on  the  Gaelic  League  movement. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Thank  you  very  much. 

CONTINUED  TESTIMONY  OF  MISS   LOUIE 

BENNETT 
CROWN   FORCES   MALTREAT   CATHOLIC   CHURCH 

Miss  Bennett:  Miss  Addams,  I  would  like  very  much  to  inform 
the  Commission  about  the  treatment  given  the  Catholic  Church  by 
the  Crown  forces.  I  don't  know  whether  you  have  had  anything 
on  that  or  not. 

Commissioner  Addams:  No,  we  have  not.  We  would  like  to 
hear  it.  m 

Miss  Bennett:  I  cannot  understand  myself  why  there  should  be 
this  attitude  taken  by  the  British  Government  towards  the  Catholic 
Church.  Of  course  this  is  true.  This  whole  movement  has  been 
intensified  on  the  part  of  the  whole  people  by  a  religious  feeling. 
To  me  the  most  remarkable  thing  about  it  is  the  religious  feeling 
underlying  it.  Now,  I  don't  mean  the  least  bit  something  that  is 
inspired  or  guided  by  the  Catholic  Church.  It  is  in  the  people 
themselves,  because  they  have  met  every  one  of  these  trials  in  the 
same  intense  religious  devotion.  I  referred  to  the  hunger  strikers 
in  Mount]  oy,  and  it  was  very  remarkable  at  the  time  of  the  Mac- 
Swiney  hunger  strike.  Every  evening  they  had  prayers,  even  in 
districts  where  the  priests  were  not  in  favor  of  it, — for  many  of  the 
priests  were  not  in  favor  of  Sinn  Fein.  Where  I  live,  ten  miles  out- 
side of  Dublin,  the  priest  there  did  not  want  to  hold  a  meeting,  and 
the  people  met  there  themselves  and  recited  the  rosary,  until  finally 
the  curate  came  down  and  led  them. 

The  British  forces  have  killed  two  priests  up  to  the  present  time, 
and  six  others  are  in  prison.  A  Kilkenny  priest  was  arrested  the 
other  day  because  he  had  a  receipt  for  the  Republican  loan  and 
a  proclamation  of  Dail  Eireann  and  two  other  documents  which  I 
have  myself. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Can  you  give  his  name?  A.  Rev.  P.  H. 
Delahunty,  of  Callan,  County  Kilkenny.     The  Irish  Times  has  twice 


1037 

said  that  he  has  been  sentenced  to  two  years  at  hard   labor.     An- 
other paper  said  it  was  not  at  hard  labor.     I  don't  know,  myself. 

Q.  But  there  is  no  question  about  the  two  years,  is  there?  A. 
No,  he  was  sentenced  to  two  years. 

CONVENTS   TERRORIZED    BY    MIDNIGHT    RAIDS 

Then  in  Dublin  they  have  raided  the  monasteries.  They  have  also 
raided  two  convents.  They  raided  one  convent  in  Merrion  Square, 
where  there  is  a  rather  high  class  of  nuns, — nuns  who  took  in  Bel- 
gians and  did  Red  Cross  work  during  the  war.  And  there  in  the 
middle  of  the  night  the  military  went  and  battered  at  the  doors  and 
roused  up  the  Mother  Superior.  And  she  had  to  allow  the  armed 
men  in  the  middle  of  the  night  to  go  through  the  house. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Looking  for  arms?  A.  They  said 
they  were  looking  for  men  as  well  as  arms.  Then  they  went  to 
another  convent,  one  of  the  strictest  convents,  where  the  nuns  are 
not  allowed  even  to  speak  to  their  own  relatives  except  through  a 
grating.  And  they  raided  this  convent,  and  even  searched  the  nuns' 
rooms  in  the  middle  of  the  night. 

Q.     Was  that  for  arms  too?     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Can  you  give  the  names  of  those  convents,  Miss 
Bennett?  A.  I  can  give  them  to  you.  The  first  was  in  Merrion 
Square,  Dublin,  and  the  second  one  was  the  Ranelagh  Convent 
in  the  north  side  of  Dublin. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  And  those  were  Unionist  nuns?  A. 
They  had  Unionist  sympathies  in  times  past. 

PRIESTS  ARRESTED  AND  ABUSED 

Then  within  the  past  two  weeks  they  raided  the  Capuchin  Friars 
in  North  Street,  Dublin.  They  arrested  there  Father  Dominic. 
Mayor  MacSwiney's  priest.  And  they  also  arrested  one  of  our  best- 
known  and  best-loved  priests  in  Dublin,  Father  Albert.  Both  of 
these  men  I  think  were  chaplains  during  the  war.  Father  Dominic 
I  am  sure  was,  and  I  think  Father  Albert  was.  They  took  these  two 
men  off  and  separated  them.  We  know,  because  we  got  Father  Al- 
bert's story  straight.  And  they  brought  a  rope  in  and  threatened 
to  hang  him  or  shoot  him  with  a  revolver  if  he  didn't  give  them 
certain  information.  This  Avas  told  to  our  friend  Miss  Griffin. 
Father  Albert  could  not  see  anyone,  but  she  went  to  the  monastery 
and  she  saw  one  of  his  friends  there  and  got  the  exact  details.  And 
twice  while  they  were  threatening  him  he  heard  shots  fired  and 
heard  a  body  fall,  and  he  naturally  thought  it  was  Father  Dominic. 
Of  course,  it  was  sheer  terrorism.  Meantime,  Father  Dominic  was 
also  being  threatened  with  revolvers  and  with  this  halter,  and  ter- 
rorized in  that  way. 


L038 

Q.  Commissioner  Adclams:  Are  they  out  now?  A.  No,  I  don't 
know.  Of  course,  I  left  immediately  after.  I  have  the  account  of 
Father  Dominic's  trial  here  I  would  like  to  leave  with  you.  He 
was  charged  with  having  in  his  possession  a  private  letter  to  a 
friend  written  at  Brixton  Prison,  in  which  he  made  a  statement 
which,  if  published,  was  likely  to  cause  disaffection  to  His  Majesty's 
subjects.  He  was  also  charged  with  having  in  his  possession  a 
diary  which  he  said  he  had  written  while  he  was  attending  Mayor 
MacSwiney  in  Brixton  Prison.  And  he  was  court-martialed  for 
having  in  his  possession  this  letter  and  this  diary.  I  don't  know 
what  he  was  sentenced  to. 

Mr.  Manly:  He  was  sentenced  to  two  years. 

The  Witness:  What  good  will  it  do?  It  looks  like  they  were 
deliberately  trying  to  create  a  religious  war. 

TERRORISM  AT  CHURCH  SERVICES 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  We  have  had  testimony  from  some  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  that  they  were  under  orders 
to  attend  Catholic  services  with  their  arms  drawn,  two  constables 
standing  at  the  front  of  the  altar  with  their  guns  at  the  ready,  and 
two  at  the  rear  of  the  church.  Has  that  been  the  case  in  Dublin,  do 
you  know?  A.  I  don't  know  personally.  I  have  heard  of  many 
cases  of  outrages  throughout  the  country  against  churches. 

Q.  This  was  at  Clogheen.  A.  Yes,  I  have  no  doubt  of  it  at  all. 
Such  things  are  happening  throughout  the  country.  A  friend  of 
mine  wrote  me  about  the  beating  of  young  men  when  they  were 
coming  out  of  a  chapel  in  County  Wexford,  where  there  had  been 
no  shooting  at  all.  Of  course,  the  people  have  been  beaten  on  many 
occasions  coming  out  of  church.  These  young  men  were  attacked 
and  beaten  so  that  it  broke  their  teeth. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  And  this  is  just  to  arouse  feeling  between  the 
people?  A.  Well,  I  could  not  say  that  positively,  but  it  looks  like 
it, — it  looks  like  it. 

PERSECUTION   UNITES   PEOPLE    OF   ALL    CREEDS 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Well,  perhaps  you  can  say  whether  it  is 
having  that  effect?  A.  No,  it  is  not.  Such  persecution  only  draws 
people  of  all  creeds  together. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  What  proportion  of  the  Irish  people 
are  now  openly  affiliated  with  the  Republican  cause,  do  you  know? 
What  is  your  opinion?  A.  Of  course,  they  say  75  per  cent,  of 
them  are.  They  base  that  on  the  elections;  but  it  is  not  an  accurate 
way,  because  everyone  who  is  not  a  Unionist  will  vote  Sinn  Fein. 

Q.     Commissioner    Addams:    There    are   getting   to   be   only   two 


1039 

parties  now?  A.  Yes,  that  is  it.  No  Nationalist  now  wants  to  split 
the  thing  when  it  comes  to  a  question  of  voting.  They  want  to  stand 
together.  I  think  there  is  a  pretty  strong  contingent  who  are  do- 
minion home-rulers,  but  almost  all  of  them  support  the  Republicans 
when  it  comes  to  a  vote. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Is  that  getting  stronger  in  the  country?  A.  Yes, 
yes.  Every  atrocity  creates  a  lot  of  Sinn  Feiners.  You  see,  the 
position  is  that  even  the  Unionists  are  disgusted  with  the  British 
Government.     Even  they  are.     They  do  not  like  the  methods  it  uses. 

Miss  Townshend:  A  Protestant  clergyman  near  Dublin  recently 
preached  a  sermon  that  the  Unionists  should  join  up  with  Sinn 
Fein.     A  relation  of  mine  heard  the  sermon   preached. 

Q.  Commissioner  Howe:  And  all  that  is  creating  a  greater  sol- 
idarity in  Ireland?  A.  Yes,  yes.  It  simply  drives  the  people  right 
into  the  Republican  camp. 

Q.  Is  that  true  in  other  districts?  A.  Yes,  yes.  Particularly 
the  young  men. 

IRISH  PRISONERS  MALTREATED 

Miss  Bennett:  The  young  men  are  all  Sinn  Fein.  Of  course  you 
realize  the  number  of  men  under  arrest.  Now  it  must  be  at  least 
3,000.  About  Christmas  time  we  had  the  figures,  and  it  was  2,000 
then,  and  there  must  be  3,000  now. 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Are  they  in  Ireland?  A.  Many  of 
them  are.  They  have  a  big  prison  camp  in  County  Down,  in 
northern  Ireland,  and  another  one  in  Galway. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  They  have  interned  them?  A.  Yes,  they  have 
interned  them. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  conditions 
of  those  camps?  A.  Just  before  I  left  I  was  making  inquiries.  I 
know  a  woman  whose  husband  is  there,  and  she  told  me  that  they 
are  all  suffering  from  the  cold  and  an  affection  of  the  feet  and  the 
bad  food.  She  said  that  if  these  conditions  continued  they  would 
all  be  in  the  hospital. 

Miss  Townshend:  It  is  a  very  exposed  place.  Three  sides  are 
exposed  to  the  sea.  The  Ulster  Volunteers  were  trained  there,  but 
not  at  this  time  of  the  year. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  have  been  any  deaths  there?  A. 
No.  But  the  way  the  Black-ancl-Tans  treat  the  prisoners  in  the 
Dublin  prisons  is  awful.  A  friend  of  mine  goes  up  to  the  barracks 
to  see  a  friend, — at  the  Harbor  Hill  barrack.  And  she  came  back 
one  day  after  a  visit  and  reported  the  following  incident  to  me.  One 
Monday  night  and  Black-and-Tans  came  in  late,  all  drunk,  and  they 
started  abusing  these  prisoners  in  the  vilest  language.  And  they 
said  they  would   like  to  shoot  all  these  prisoners.      And   they  took 


1040 

one  man  out  of  bed  in  his  night  clothes  and  ran  him  around  the 
barrack  yard.  And  they  said  that  one  of  their  comrades  had  been 
shot  that  day,  and  they  showed  him  a  dead  body.  But  we  could  not 
verify  that,  because  no  Black-and-Tan  had  been  shot  that  clay.  One 
had  been  killed  the  previous  day  accidentally.     And  we  have  that 

on  the  statement  of  Mr.  X .     But  I  do  not  want  this  mentioned 

by  the  gentlemen  of  the  press  here. 

MURDERS   AND    MILITARY   FRIGHTFULNESS 

We  also  have  a  complete  list  of  the  men,  women,  and  children 
murdered  in  Ireland  for  the  twelve  months  of  1920.  I  will  not  give 
you  the  details,  but  the  total  number  is  203.  Of  these,  172  were 
young  men  and  men  of  middle  age;  12  were  children  under  17 
years;  6  were  women,  two  of  them  being  pregnant  at  the  time  of 
their  murder;  10  were  old  men  of  60  years  and  over;  3  were  boys 
of  18  years;  1  was  a  Catholic  priest  73  years  of  age,  and  since  then 
there  has  been  another  priest  murdered,  a  young  man  34  years 
of  age. 

It  is  a  common  thing  for  soldiers  going  along  the  country  to  fire 
shots  at  women  and  children  who  are  going  by.  They  have  to  lie 
down  flat  in  the  road  because  the  Black-and-Tans  fire  at  them, — I 
do  not  think  to  kill  them,  but  simply  to  terrify  them.  My  maid 
has  had  letters  from  home  that  she  has  shown  to  me,  telling  how 
the  whole  countryside  is  terrified  by  these  insane  practices. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Well,  Mrs.  Quinn  was  shot  like  that.  A.  Yes, 
Mrs.  Quinn  was  shot  like  that,  but  the  case  of  the  woman  in  Kil- 
kenny was  even  a  more  terrible  murder. 

SEX   CRIMES   DIFFICULT  TO   ASCERTAIN 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Have  you  heard  of  any  sex  crimes?  A.  No, 
I  have  not  personally,  except  that  I  have  reports  of  two  cases  of 
court-martials,  one  of  a  soldier  and  the  other  of  a  constable,  where 
they  were  court-martialed  for  assaults  on  women;  and  one  was 
sentenced  to  two  years.  Of  course,  it  is  very  difficult  to  get  facts 
about  such  cases. 

Q.  But  you  have  heard  of  two  cases  of  courts-martial  for  sex 
crimes  on  women?  A.  Yes.  Of  course,  the  case  of  the  drunken 
officers  in  Dublin  breaking  into  a  house  where  there  were  three 
women,  and  one  of  the  women  escaped  and  ran  from  the  house; 
and  the  military  were  sent  from  the  barracks  and  arrested  the  offi- 
cers. And  of  course  there  are  many  instances  of  the  brutal  treat- 
ment of  women,  many,  many  of  them. 

Miss  Townshend :  And  then  there  was  the  case  of  the  old  woman 


1041 

of  seventy  years  of  age  who  was  murdered  by  an  officer  whom  they 
said  later  was  crazy. 

BRUTAL  TREATMENT  OF  UNPROTECTED 
WOMEN 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Can  you  give  us  cases  of  the  brutal  treatment 
of  women?  A.  Yes.  There  was  a  case  of  an  old  woman  in 
Dublin.  Her  sons,  it  was  said,  were  in  the  Republican  Army.  And 
the  militarv  raided  her  house.  In  it  lived  the  old  woman  and  an 
unmarried  daughter  and  two  married  daughters  and  a  little  child 
two  and  a  half  years  of  age.  On  this  day  the  unmarried  daughter 
was  at  home,  and  she  had  charge  of  the  little  child.  And  they 
raided  the  house,  and  wanted  to  get  the  name  of  a  certain  man  from 
her.  And  they  put  her  up  against  the  wall  and  put  a  revolver  to 
either  side  of  her  head  and  demanded  that  she  tell  them  his  name. 
And  she  fell  in  a  faint;  and  the  next  thing  she  knew  there  was  a 
nurse  standing  over  her.  The  Cork  military  hospital  is  near  there, 
and  a  nurse  from  the  hospital  was  standing  over  her. 

The  next  day  both  the  military  and  the  Black-and-Tans  came. 
The  unmarried  daughter  was  upstairs  in  bed,  and  the  two  married 
daughters  and  the  mother  were  downstairs  with  the  little  child. 
Some  of  the  men  went  upstairs  to  the  room  where  the  unmarried 
daughter  was  in  bed,  and  the  rest  remained  downstairs.  And  one 
of  the  married  daughters  went  upstairs  after  them  to  stay  with  her 
sister.  And  then  the  two  of  them  who  stayed  downstairs  began  to 
threaten  the  old  mother  to  compel  her  to  tell  the  name  of  this  party 
they  wanted.  They  took  the  little  child  away  from  her  and  took  it 
outside.  They  got  a  can  of  petrol,  and  they  threatened  her  with 
revolvers,  trying  to  get  this  information  about  this  man.  And  they 
said  that  they  would  set  the  place  on  fire  if  she  did  not  tell  them. 
Of  course  they  frightened  the  poor  old  woman  nearly  to  death. 
And  upstairs  they  were  threatening  the  unmarried  daughter,  and 
tried  to  get  her  to  tell.  And  they  said  to  her,  "You  had  better  leave 
this  house,  for  we  are  going  to  burn  it."  They  questioned  her  about 
her  brother  and  asked  her  if  she  had  a  brother  in  the  army — in  the 
Sinn  Fein  army.  On  this  occasion  they  battered  in  the  door.  They 
would  not  wait  for  the  door  to  be  opened,  but  battered  in  the  door 
in  order  to  get  into  the  house,  where  there  was  no  one  but  these 
women  and  a  little  child. 

DRUNKENNESS    PROMOTES    BRUTALITY 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Were  they  intoxicated?  A.  Well,  the  girl  who 
was  downstairs  said  that  the  two  men  down  there  were  intoxicated. 


1042 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Do  you  think  the  drink  question  en- 
ters in?     A.    Yes,  yes.     Indeed  it  does. 

Miss  Townshend:  The  officer  who  shot  that  priest  they  said  was 
drunk. 

Q.     Father  Griffin?     A.     No,  Canon  Magner. 

MURDER  OF  IRISH  CIVILIANS  ON  THE  INCREASE 

Q.  Would  you  like  to  submit  any  other  papers  on  this  subject? 
A.  Well,  those  figures  I  gave  you  from  this  list,  which  is  very  care- 
fully drawn  up,  show  that  of  the  203  murders  listed,  only  44  oc- 
curred up  to  the  end  of  August.  All  the  remainder  occurred  during 
the  remaining  four  months.  And  of  course  the  number  has  in- 
creased very  much  since  then.  They  say  they  are  shot  trying  to 
escape,  but  that  is  all  humbug. 

Q.  You  haven't  the  list  of  casualties  on  the  other  side,  the  con- 
stables, have  you?  A.  No,  this  list  does  not  include  any  casualties 
who  have  been  killed  in  taking  barracks  or  anything  of  that  sort. 
None  of  them  occurred  in  any  kind  of  armed  conflict. 

Q.  Is  the  list  of  men  killed  that  way  very  large?  A.  Yes,  it 
must  be  very  large.     But  no  list  has  ever  been  published. 

Mr.  Manly:  Those  are  considered  as  casualties  of  war,  and  no 
complaint  is  made  of  the  men  killed  in  that  way. 

GAELIC  MOVEMENT  BRINGS  NATIONAL  REBIRTH 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  Is  there  anything  else  you  want  to 
say,  Miss  Townshend?  A.  Miss  Townshend:  Well,  since  we  are 
coming  from  the  Women's  International  League,  this  might  be  in- 
teresting. It  is  written  by  Dr.  L.  Paul  Du  Bois,  who  has  written  a 
book  on  Contemporary  Ireland.  It  gives  an  excellent  idea  of  what 
the  movement  in  Ireland  is. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Would  you  read  that,  Mr.  Manly? 

Mr.  Manly:  Certainly.  This  is  written  by  L.  Paul  Du  Bois,  and 
the  article  is  entitled  "The  Gaelic  Movement."     (Reading)  : 

"When  we  have  considered  the  field  of  action  of  what  is  called  the 
Gaelic  movement,  it  becomes  a  matter  of  conviction  that  this  is  no 
merely  superficial  and  artificial  agitation,  but  a  profound  movement 
which  may  hold  within  it  the  germs  of  national  rebirth,  a  movement 
that  is  destined  to  free  the  Irish  nation  from  intellectual  dependence 
upon  England  and  give  it  back  its  own  life,  moral  and  mental,  eco- 
nomic and  social.  We  find,  in  one  word,  the  promise  of  an  Ireland 
worthy  of  the  name,  an  Irish  Ireland. 

"A  consideration  of  it  must  suggest  and  recall  those  other  move- 
ments of  national  renaissance  of  which  so  many  small  nationalities 
of  Europe  have  given  demonstration  during  the  course  of  the  nine- 
teenth century.  The  Czech  language  and  literature  were  all  but  ex- 
tinguished a  hundred  years  ago,  when  one  evening  four  or  five 
scholars,-  the  last  depositories  of  the  national  treasure,  met  together  in 
a   certain   house   in    Prague   to   consider   means   by   which   they   might 


1043 


bring  this  treasure  to  life  again.  A  writer  has  said  that  if  the  roof  of 
the  house  had  fallen  in  there  would  have  been  an  end  of  their  na- 
tionality. They  fought  and  they  triumphed.  Today,  following  the 
example  of  the  Czechs,  the  southern  Slavs  and  the  Poles  are  fighting 
for  the  recognition  of  their  civilization.  From  the  beginning  of  the 
century.  Wales,  after  Wesley's  regeneration  work,  had  readopted  the 
Welsh  tongue,  and  had  created  a  new  Welsh  literature.  Soon  after- 
wards the  Magyar  language  was  saved  from  Pan-Germanism,  and  the 
Finnish  from  Swedish  influence.  The  Flemish,  with  Hendrick  Con- 
science, resumed  their  natural  organ  of  expression  without  losing 
French,  and  the  Norwegians,  in  spite  of  the  Danes,  reconstituted  their 
language,  as  the  latter  had  a  century  before  revived  theirs,  which  was 
being  stifled  by  German. 

"Everywhere  the  revival  of  the  language  has  thus  preceded  or  ac- 
companied a  national  renaissance.  Late  in  the  lists  Ireland,  in  her 
turn,  comes  to  fight.  She  is  struggling  to  preserve  with  her  national 
language  her  right  to  live,  her  right  to  have  a  soul.  She  is  fighting 
for  something  else  as  well,  and  this  is  the  preservation  of  a  group  of 
ideas  and  traditions  in  the  world,  whose  responsible  depository  she  is. 
And  it  must  be  said  that  of  all  the  small  nationalities  who,  confront- 
ing the  gross  utilitarianism  and  corrupt  materialism  of  the  modern 
world,  seem  created  to  represent  the  claims  of  beauty,  truth,  and 
civilization,  there  is  not  one  that  is  more  worthy  of  being  preserved 
than  Celtic  Ireland,  very  old  and  always  young.  In  none  of  them  do 
we  find  a  more  delicate  or  more  spiritual  genius,  a  genius  richer  in 
imagination,  piety,  and  idealism.  The  preservation  and  development 
of  it  in  complete,  conscious,  and  fruitful  expression  is,  more  than  any 
other,  essential  to  the  future  of  humanity. 

"If  this  culture  should  perish  it  would  be  a  crime.  And  if  one  takes 
the  point  of  view  of  England's  own  self-interest,  it  would  be  a  mis- 
take. England  has  need  of  a  populous  Ireland,  a  rich  Ireland,  whose 
hostility  she  need  not  fear.  But  she  has,  above  all,  need  of  an  Ire- 
land that  shall  be  truly  Irish  and  Celtic.  It  is  not  a  paradox  to  say 
that  Ireland  will  be  so  much  the  less  anti-English  as  she  is  the  less 
Anglicized,  as  she  is  the  more  Celtic  and  national.  Nor  is  this  all. 
There  is  a  Celtic  factor  in  the  composition  of  the  English  mind  which 
has  manifested  itself  clearly  in  the  case  of  some  of  her  greatest  men 
and  greatest  poets.  It  is  to  England's  interest  that  this  Celtic  in- 
fluence should  continue  to  counterbalance  in  her  genius  the  German 
and  Norman  elements.  It  is  Matthew  Arnold  and  not  we  who  say 
this,  and  the  thesis  may  be  found  in  his  celebrated  work  on  The  Study 
of  Celtic  Literature. 

"When  the  Gaelic  movement  was  born  in  Ireland  the  general  im- 
pression was  that  this  movement  came  too  late  into  a  world  too  old. 
The  cause  seemed  lost  in  advance.  Foreign  examples  proved  nothing, 
so  it  was  said.  Nowhere  else  had  the  national  language  fallen  so  low 
as  in  Ireland.  No  other  country  had  to  fight  alone  such  a  battle 
against  such  an  adversary.  If  Ireland  had  but  had  behind  her  such 
solid  strength  as  the  Slav  world  behind  the  Czechs  and  the  Poles,  she 
might  stand  a  chance  of  success  !  But  what  is  Pan-Celticism  com- 
pared to  Pan-Slavism?  Today,  on  the  other  hand,  when  observers 
note  how  the  mind  of  the  nation  has  awakened  to  enthusiasm  ;  when 
the  ardor  with  which  the  Irish  people  have  received  the  new  gospel, 
and  the  intelligence  with  which  they  have  understood  what  was  ex- 
pected of  them  is  known;  when  after  fifteen  years  of  work,  obstacles 
have  been  surmounted  and  results  attained,  it  begins  to  be  said  that 
the  impossible  sometimes  comes  true,  and  that  success  is  not  impos- 
sible. No  doubt  Ireland  as  yet  is  but  at  the  dawn  of  the  new  day. 
The  battle  has  only  begun,  but  it  is  already  half  won  against  the  out- 
side enemy,  that  is  to  say,  against  anti-Celtic  prejudice.  .  .  .  The 
most  sceptical  of  our  Irish  friends  who  five  years  ago  smiled  at  Gaelic 
hopes  are  now  almost  sure  that  Ireland  in  the  next  generation  will  be 


1044 


bilingual,  at  least  for  the  greater  part.  For  the  present,  in  any  case, 
no  one  will  deny  the  positive  result  that  the  movement  has  produced 
in  the  social  domain.  From  one  end  of  the  country  to  the  other  the 
Gaelic  spirit  is  working  as  a  powerful  factor  of  peace  and  of  union. 
The  Gaelic  revival  has  restored  the  national  idea  and  raised  it  above 
and  beyond  party,  and  religious  profession.  Under  the  Gaelic  banner 
there  are  neither  Unionists  nor  Nationalists:  everyone  is  Irish.  Of 
the  two  Irelands  the  Gaelic  renaissance  is  making  one." 

EDITORS   IMPRISONED   AND    FINED 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  am  sure  we  are  very  glad  to  have 
that.  And  have  you  any  other  resolutions  from  the  Gaelic  League 
that  you  wish  to  submit?  A.  Miss  Bennett:  Well,  the  other  one  is 
about  a  paper.  I  don't  know  whether  the  American  press  here 
knows  the  case  of  the  Freeman's  Journal.  The  three  editors  of  the 
Freeman's  Journal  were  arrested  on  the  charge  of  giving  false  in- 
formation, and  they  were  sentenced  to  a  year's  imprisonment  and  a 
fine  of  three  thousand  pounds,  although  the  substance  of  what  they 
reported  was  true.  A  great  agitation  was  made  in  the  English  press, 
and  they  have  been  released,  as  they  say,  on  account  of  health  con- 
ditions. I  have  got  a  statement  from  one  of  the  editors  of  the 
Freeman  s  Journal  about  the  whole  court-martial  case  and  the  facts 
that  came  out.  It  is  very  illuminating,  and  if  you  wish,  I  will  leave 
it  with  you.1 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  we  would  be  very  glad  to  have  it, 
I  am  sure. 

WAR  ON  THE  WOUNDED 

The  Witness:  And  then  this  is  a  list  of  cases.  It  is  from  the  Irish 
Bulletin,  and  is  called,  "War  on  the  Wounded,"  giving  cases  where 
the  British  military  have  shot  men  and  have  shown  utmost  callous- 


1  The  main  charge  made  by  the  British  Government  against  the  editor 
and  two  directors  of  the  Freeman's  Journal  was  the  publication  of  an 
article  with  a  photograph  showing  the  wounds  on  the  back  of  a  man  who 
had  been  flogged  by  soldiers  of  the  Berkshire  Regiment  while  a  prisoner 
in  Portobello  Barracks,  Dublin.  The  accused  journalists  were  tried  by 
court-martial  before  soldiers  stationed  in  Dublin,  and  sentenced  to  twelve 
months'  imprisonment,  with  a  fine  of  £3,500  imposed  on  the  company,  al- 
though the  prisoner  who  had  been  beaten,  two  reputable  doctors  who 
treated  his  wounds,  and  a  photograph  of  the  wounds  taken  two  days  after 
the  beating  established  the  truthfulness  of  the  paper's  account  of  the  affair. 
But  the  Coercion  Act  now  in  force  in  Ireland  makes  such  publications 
punishable,  even  though  they  be  wholly  true,  if  they  are  "likely  to  cause 
disaffection  to  His  Majesty's  subjects."  The  Manchester  (England) 
Weekly  Guardian  for  December  31,  1920,  makes  the  following  comment 
upon  this  sort  of  court-martial  "justice"  in  Ireland: 

"The  sentence  on  the  Freeman's  Journal  will  probably  have  the  de- 
sired minatory  effect— already  half  produced  by  unofficial  threats  of 
arson  and  terrorism  in  a  score  of  newspaper  offices — of  completing  the 
subservience  of  the  press  in  Ireland  to  Government-supplied  news 
which  is  often  nothing  but   unscrupulous  propaganda." 


L045 

ness  in  their  treatment  of  men  who  were  wounded,  leaving  them  to 
suffer.  One  of  these  cases  I  have  verified  myself,  where  a  young 
chap  in  Dublin  called  Doyle  was  shot  in  his  yard.  They  arrested 
the  other  man  in  the  house,  his  brother-in-law,  and  when  they  were 
taking  him  away  in  the  lorry  this  brother-indaw  heard  the  officer 
say,  "I  hope  to  God  that  I  didn't  kill  him  outright."  But  they 
left  him  lying  there  and  he  died  in  a  short  time.  Then  several  hours 
afterwards  they  sent  an  ambulance  to  get  him. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Are  the  ambulances  operating  the  Red  Cross 
ambulances,  or  are  they  regular  ambulances  of  the  British  Army? 
A.  Well,  there  have  been  some  Red  Cross;  I  have  seen  a  few.  But 
in  many  cases  they  just  send  a  stretcher  from  the  nearest  barracks. 

MURDER  OF  PRISONER  CLOAKED  BY 
FALSEHOOD 

And  I  have  here  a  very  carefully  drawn  up  statement  by  Mr. 
Edward  Lysaght  about  the  case  of  the  man  Clune.  You  remember 
on  Sunday,  November  21st,  when  those  14  British  officers  were 
murdered  in  Dublin.  Well,  a  day  or  two  afterwards  it  was  reported 
that  three  men,  Sinn  Fein  prisoners,  were  shot  in  attempting  to 
escape.  And  the  military  gave  a  report  that  these  men  had  attacked 
their  guard,  and  were  killed  by  the  guard  in  self-defense,  and  a 
statement  that  this  man  Clune  was  a  licensed  trader.  The  statement 
was  absolutely  inaccurate  in  every  detail.  And  Mr.  Lysaght,  who  is 
in  the  cooperative  movement  and  was  very  deeply  and  closely  at- 
tached to  Clune,  he  made  a  very  careful  investigation  of  the  case, 
which  I  have  here.  The  press  will  remember  that  Mr.  Lysaght's 
life  was  endangered  simply  because  he  wanted  to  show  up  this  case 
and  give  the  facts  about  Mr.  Clune's  murder.  Clune  had  absolutely 
no  connection  at  all  with  the  Republican  movement.  He  had  come 
up  to  Dublin  Saturday  with  Mr.  Lysaght,  and  was  with  Mr.  Lysaght 
until  a  few  hours'  time  before  he  was  arrested  and  murdered. 

COOPERATIVE  STORE  LOOTED  AND   DESTROYED 

On  the  day  this  poor  man  was  buried,  the  cooperative  store  at 
Raheen  was  looted  and  destroyed.  They  trampled  tea  and  sugar 
and  everything  on  the  ground,  and  broke  into  the  store  room  and 
carried  away  practically  all  the  groceries  or  destroyed  what  they  did 
not  take.  They  did  this  while  the  men  of  the  store  were  attending 
Clune's  funeral.  The  next  day  they  came  and  raided  Mr.  Lysaght's 
house,  and  Mr.  Lysaght  dare  not  go  back  for  fear  of  his  life.  He 
does  his  work  in  Dublin  the  best  he  can. 


1046 


PRISONERS  TERRORIZED  BY  BLACK-AND-TANS 

Mr.  Lysaght  himself  was  arrested  and  put  into  the  same  cell 
where  Clune  was,  and  the  Black-and-Tans  showed  him  the  bullet 
marks  in  the  wall  and  said,  "This  is  where  your  friend  Clune  was 
murdered,  and  you  will  be  murdered  here  too."  There  were  some 
young  fellows  there,  some  university  students.  And  this  terrorism 
continued  all  clay  long.  And  he  said  that  during  the  day  that  he 
was  there  these  Black-and-Tans  continued  to  drink  and  play  cards 
throughout  the  day  and  part  of  the  night.'  Of  course,  Mr.  Lysaght 
is  a  very  big  man,  and  influence  was  brought  about  to  have  him 
released.  And  he  was  released  after  midnight  and  sent  off  without 
any  guard, — simply  a  permit.  And  he  had  to  walk  a  very  long 
way  across  the  city  to  where  he  lived.    His  life  was  really  in  danger. 

Commissioner  Addams:  That  will  all  go  into  the  evidence  (indi- 
cating documents  submitted  in  Clune  case).1  Thank  you  very  much. 
Is  there   anything  more? 

FROM   A   UNIONIST   FAMILY   TO   REPUBLICANISM 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  There  is  a  question  or  two,  Miss  Bennett.  I 
happened  to  be  away  during  a  part  of  your  testimony,  and  if  you 
have  treated  some  of  these  things,  just  say  so.  How  long  have  you 
been  affiliated  with  the  Republican  nationalist  movement?  A.  I 
am  not  a  part  of  any  political  work  at  all. 

Q.     But  you  are  Republican  in  sympathy?     A.     Yes,  I  am. 

Q.  The  question  I  want  to  ask  is  this,  if  you  could  tell  us:  what 
are  the  outstanding  facts  that  made  you,  of  a  Unionist  family  in  a 
Unionist  environment,  come  to  this  attitude?  A.  Well,  I  never  was 
Unionist  myself,  although  my  family  were.  I  had  absolutely  no 
interest  in  politics  whatever. 

Q.  When  did  the  turn  begin  to  come?  It  seems  to  me  that  this 
personal  attitude  is  rather  important. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  it  is  significant,  if  she  cares  to  give 
it.  A.  Well,  I  was  just  trying  to  think.  I  was  born  of  a  strong 
Unionist  family,  and  of  course  was  sent  to  an  English  school.  I 
think  I  was  born  with  an  intense  hatred  of  the  English  people.  I 
cannot  help  it.  It  seems  to  be  born  in  me.  I  remember  that  when 
I  used  to  go  along  those  English  country  roads  and  look  at  those 
houses,  their  placidity  and  comfortability  always  affected  me. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  I  suppose  it  was  in  contrast  to  what  you  saw  in 
your  own  country?     A.     Yes,  I  suppose  it  must  have  been  that. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  But  you  are  Irish  yourself, — both  sides  of 
your  family?  A.  Well,  my  father's  side  was  of  English  origin, 
three  generations  ago.     Of  course,  I  always  had  a  great  interest  in 

1  See  Exhibit  IV  hereof,  pp.  1064-8. 


1047 

the  Irish  question.  And  some  years  ago,  when  I  was  up  in  Belfast,  a 
friend  of  mine  induced  me  to  read  books  relating  to  the  Wolfe  Tone 
and  Emmet  time.  Up  in  Belfast  they  have  a  very  fine  collection  of 
these  old  books.  And  I  read  some  of  these  books,  and  I  afterwards 
wrote  a  novel  based  on  what  I  had  read  up  there. 

Q.  That  was  the  historical  basis  for  your  interest  in  politics? 
A.  Ites,  it  is.  Then  I  was  away  from  Ireland  for  a  few  years, 
and  when  I  came  back  I  was  very  much  interested  in  the  suffrage 
movement.  And  then  when  I  touched  the  Labor  movement,  I  got 
to  be  interested  in  it.  And  then,  like  many  other  slow  converts, 
the  1916  uprising  aroused  a  great  deal  of  dormant  nationalist  feel- 
ing in  me,  just  as  it  did  in  a  vast  number  of  people.  Of  course, 
you  see,  the  manner  of  Connolly's  death  affected  me  very  much  per- 
sonally, because  I  was  in  close  touch  with  him.  I  knew  his  family, 
and  I  kept  in  touch  with  him  when  he  was  lying  in  prison,  and  of 
course  at  the  time  of  his  execution. 

NEW  YORK  "TIMES'"  BOLSHEVIK  SCARE 
UNFOUNDED 
Q.     Mr.  Manly:  There  is  a  quotation  here  from  the  New  York 
Times  that  I  would  like  to  get  your  interpretation  of.      (Reading)  : 

"But  little  attention  has  been  paid  in  this  country  to  the  Irish  Labor 
Party.  It  has  been  working-  with  the  British  Labor  Party  to  bring 
about  the  withdrawal  of  troops  from  Ireland,  yet  all  along  has  been 
playing  its  own  hand.  What  that  is  was  plainly  declared  by  Mr. 
Johnson,  the  representative  of  Irish  Labor,  in  the  recent  labor  con- 
ference. He  said:  "I  do  not  want  to  deceive  you.  If  the  right  of 
self-determination  were  given  us,  we  would  determine,  if  we  could, 
for  a  workers'  republic  in  Ireland.' 

"That  means  a  Soviet  Government,  with  the  confiscation  of  private 
property  and  the  nationalization  of  all  industries.  What  have  Irish- 
men with  a  stake  in  their  country  to  say  to  this?  What  are  the  Cath- 
olic hierarchy  thinking  about  it?  The  latest  news  is  that  the  im- 
patient Irish  Labor  Party  is  calling  upon  the  British  Labor  Party  to 
resort  at  once  to  'direct  action'  in  order  to  force  the  Government  to 
get  out  of  Ireland." 

Commissioner  Addams:  I  don't  think  we  need  to  have  the  whole 
editorial,  Mr.  Manly. 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  this  is  a  very  important  point.  It  is  because 
it  is  apparent  that  there  is  a  very  concerted  propaganda  in  this 
country  to  show  that  there  is  a  direct  connection  between  the  Irish 
Republic  and  Lenin.     He  is  always  mentioned  in  this  relation. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Very  well.     Just  go  on. 

Air.  Manly:  The  connection  shown  between  Lenin  and  the  Soviet 
Government  with  the  Irish  Republic  is  especiallv  indicated  in  this 
next  pargaraph.     (Continues  reading)  : 

"This  is  the  Lenin  program.  It  is  a  revolution  against  the  Irish 
bourgeoisie.  The  whole  thing  looks  more  and  more  as  if  the  Labor 
Party  cared  very  little  about  the  wrongs  of  Ireland,  and  was  perfectly 
willing  to  make  use  of  them  in  a  way  to  delight  the  heart  and  further 
the  projects  of  Nicolai  Lenin." 


1048 

SOCIALISM  NOT  STRONG  AMONG  IRISH  LABOR 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Now,  I  wanted  to  ask  you  first  whether,  from 
your  relations  with  the  Irish  Labor  movement,  do  you  know  if  that 
is  a  correct  quotation  of  Mr.  Johnson's  attitude?  A.  No,  it  is  not. 
Mr.  Johnson,  of  course,  is  a  Socialist. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Johnson,  by  the  way?  A.  He  is  the  secretary 
of  the  Irish  Labor  Party. 

Q.  Was  he  born  in  Ireland?  A.  No,  he  is  an  Englishman.  He 
worked  up  in  Belfast  at  first.  I  think  he  was  a  traveler  of  some 
kind.  And  then  he  became  interested  in  the  Labor  movement.  He 
is  a  very  idealistic  and  fine  type  of  man,  very  much  so, — a  splendid 
man.  He  did  not  come  very  prominently  forward  until  after  1916. 
But  after  the  uprising,  when  everything  was  in  chaos  in  Dublin,  he 
and  another  man  named  Cameron  came  down  from  Belfast,  and 
they  did  very  remarkable  work.  People  were  very  badly  frightened 
in  Dublin,  as  you  can  imagine.  And  they  got  the  workers  together. 
That  was  the  first  Trades  Union  Congress.  I  just  went  down  there 
as  a  visitor.  I  was  reporting  for  a  paper.  It  was  the  first  Trades 
Union  Congress  that  I  went  to.  Johnson  was  the  chairman.  He  is 
a  very  fine  man.  He  is  a  moderate  Socialist,  not  an  extremist. 
Amongst  the  Labor  Party  there  are  a  few, — I  don't  know  if  you 
would  call  them  extreme  Socialists,  but  they  are  strong  Socialists. 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  we  have  that  in  the  United  States. 

The  Witness:  I  think  you  have.  But  the  rank  and  file  are  not 
Socialists  to  any  great  extent.  They  have  not  time  to  think  about  it. 
But  many  of  the  leaders  are.  What  they  think  of  is  this:  they  want 
more  wages,  and  they  look  to  the  trade  union  to  get  it  for  them. 
But  outside  of  that,  the  political  question  absorbs  them.  And  the 
leaders  know  it  quite  well. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  think  there  is  any  considerable  senti- 
ment in  Ireland  among  the  workers  to  take  over  the  government 
and  run  it?  A.  No.  I  have  heard  the  leaders  advocate  themselves 
the  taking  over  and  running  of  the  industries  by  the  workers.  But 
they  say  that  the  time  is  not  ripe  for  it  yet. 

Q.     But  it  is  not  part  of  the  present  program?     A.     No,  it  is  not. 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  There  is  no  agitation  for  confiscation  following 
the  establishment  of  the  Republic?  A.  Absolutely  none.  Of 
course,  we  all  talk  about  the  control  of  industry. 

Commissioner  Addams:   Certainly. 

The  Witness:  But  there  is  no  talk  about  having  a  workers'  republic 
or  even  the  confiscation  of  private  property.  But  the  Government 
is  very  much  afraid  of  it.     I  know  that. 

Mr.  Manly:  Well,  we  have  a  government  over  here  that  sees  things 
at  night  also. 


1049 

The  Witness:  Well,  yes,  that  is  the  way  of  it.  There  is,  of  course, 
a  Socialist  Party  of  Ireland,  but  it  has  a  very  small  membership. 

Q.  How  large  a  membership?  A.  I  don't  know;  only  a  very 
small  number  of  members.     It  is  limited  to  Dublin. 

Q.  So  that  is  the  Soviet  that  is  about  to  take  over  capital  in 
Ireland?     A.     Yes,  that  is  it,  exactly. 

LABOR  WANTS  REPRESENTATION  IN  THE  DAIL 

Q.  Does  Mr.  Johnson  hold  any  position  in  the  Irish  Republic? 
A.  No.  That  is  why  this  Constituent  Assembly  was  asked  for  in 
the  Labor  Congress  meeting.  Labor  has  no  direct  representation  in 
the  Dail.  That  is  why  they  would  like  another  Constituent  Assem- 
bly, and  secure  representation  in  the  Dail.  Of  course,  many  of  the 
members  of  the  Dail  are  very  progressive,  but  they  are  not  extreme 
Socialists.  They  are  not  usually  elected  simply  for  their  economic- 
views.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  language  has  much  to  do  in  elec- 
tions.    The  Gaelic  speaker  gets  elected. 

NO  SOVIET  GOLD  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  There  is  another  thing  in  connection  with  this. 
We  have  had  editorials,  one  of  them  during  the  last  week  in  the 
Washington  Post,  charging  indirectly  as  "it  is  said"  that  the  Irish 
Republic  is  in  receipt  of  enormous  sums  of  money  from  the  Soviet 
Government  of  Russia.  Have  you  heard  that  in  Ireland?  A.  For 
years  I  have  heard  it.  At  first  we  had  the  German  gold,  and  now 
we  have  the  Russian  gold.  I  would  not  mind  seeing  some  of  it  in 
Ireland.  But  I  myself  have  seen  nothing  of  it.  And  I  did  not  see 
that  the  families  of  the  members  of  the  Dail  or  the  Ministers  have 
much  gold  to  talk  about,  either. 

SOCIALISM    STRONGEST    IN    ULSTER 

Q.  Commissioner  Addams:  I  suppose  that  the  scare  that  the 
workers  are  getting  control  is  shown  by  the  insertion  of  the  pro- 
vision by  Sir  Edward  Carson  that  there  should  be  no  levy  in  the 
new  parliament  in  the  north  for  fifteen  years.  A.  Well,  I  think 
they  have  very  much  reason  to  be  frightened  in  the  north, — more 
than  in  the  south.  I  think  when  the  workers  will  get  together  up 
there  you  will  have  a  very  strong  Socialist  movement  there. 

Q.  They  are  more  industrial  there?  A.  Yes,  but  more  than 
that.  They  are  very  much  under  the  influence  of  the  Scotch  workers. 
And,  as  one  of  the  papers  read  here  said,  there  are  many  of  the 
workers  up  there  who  have  no  particular  religion.  It  was  a  very 
interesting  fact  that  at  the  last  Trade  Union  Congress  some  of  ihe 
Expelled  Workers'  Committee  came  down  and  gave  us  a  report  on 


1050 

their  work;  and  they  told  us  that  25  per  cent,  of  the  men  uirown 
out  of  their  work  were  Protestants  who  were  Socialists.  They  would 
not  stand  by  the  other  Protestant  workers  who  expelled  the  Cath- 
olics. 

FARMERS  THE   DECIDING  FACTOR  IN  IRELAND 

Q.  Mr.  Manly:  Well,  it  is  true,  is  it  not,  that  the  majority  of  the 
Irish  people  are  connected  with  agricultural  life?     A.     Yes,  it  is. 

Q.  So  that  even  if  Mr.  Johnson  had  the  purpose  expressed  in 
this  article  of  setting  up  a  Soviet  form  of  government,  he  would  be 
decidedly  outnumbered  bv  the  agricultural  population?  A.  Yes. 
Of  course,  the  deciding  factor  in  Ireland  is  the  agricultural  popu- 
lation. But  it  is  extremely  difficult  to  say  what  line  the  peasant 
workers  will  take  in  the  movement. 

Q.  But  the  tendency  has  been  towards  cooperation,  has  it  not? 
A.  Not  among  the  agricultural  workers  themselves.  I  was  talking 
to  a  man  the  other  day  who  is  in  touch  with  the  agricultural  situa- 
tion ;  and  I  asked  him  if  he  saw  much  tendency  among  the  agricul- 
tural workers  to  take  up  small  holdings,  and  he  said  no.  And  he  is 
a  man  who  travels  about  the  country  a  lot  and  knows  what  he  is 
talking  about.  Of  course,  these  agricultural  workers  have  been 
organized  for  only  a  year. 

Q.  That  is  the  experience  of  all  labor  movements,  is  it  not,  that 
the  agricultural  worker  tends  to  be  slow  and  conservative?  A.  At 
the  present  time  all  the  agricultural  workers  think  of  is  first,  more 
wages;  and  second,  independence. 

Q.  Major  Newman:  Do  you  not  think  that  the  purpose  of  the 
Irish  Republic  after  it  gets  independence  is  beyond  the  scope  of 
this  Commission? 

A.  Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  I  thought  that  when  this  edi- 
torial was  introduced.  Well,  then,  shall  I  say  that  the  hearing  will 
come  to  an  end?  Is  there  anything  else,  Miss  Bennett  and  Miss 
Townshend  ? 

STATEMENT  OF  IRISHWOMEN'S  INTERNATIONAL, 
LEAGUE 

Miss  Bennett:  I  really  ought  to  read  this  statement  from  the  Irish 
Women's  International  League. 

Commissioner  Addams:  Yes,  certainly,  of  course.  You  were  go- 
ing to  read  that  before.  Miss  Bennett  is  a  member  of  the  Irish 
Branch  of  the  Women's  International  League,  and  she  has  here  a 
statement  made  on  this  question  by  her  organization. 

Miss  Bennett:  This  is  the  statement  that  the  Irish  Women's  Inter- 
national League  prepared  and  gave  to  me  especially  to  set  before 
this  Commission;     (Reading)  : 


1051 


RESPONSIBILITY    RESTS    UPON    BRITISH 
GOVERNMENT 

"The  Irishwomen's  International  League  affirms  that  the  responsi- 
bility for  the  bloodshed  and  violence  in  Ireland  rests  upon  the  British 
Government,  which  refuses  to  allow  her  the  indefeasible  right  of  all 
nations  to  freedom,  outlaws  her  duly  elected  Parliament,  and  per- 
sistently attempts  to  rule  the  people  by   force. 

"Every  effort  made  by  Ireland's  chosen  representatives  to  carry  on 
the  government  of  the  country  with  the  consent  of  the  people  has  been 
ruthlessly  suppressed  by  the  militarist  forces  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment. The  members  of  the  Dail  have  been  imprisoned  time  after  time, 
and  eventually  driven  to  carry  on  their  activities  sub  rosa. 

"As  an  organization  advocating  passive  resistance  to  tyranny,  we 
wish  to  draw  particular  attention  to  the  constructive  work  attempted 
by  the  Dail,  with  the  cooperation  of  the  people,  and  to  (he  methods 
by  which  this  work  has  been  impeded  or  destroyed  by  the  British 
Government. 

THE  SOLUTION 

"In  our  opinion  the  solution  lies  in  the  decision  of  Great  Britain  to 
withdraw  her  forces  from  Ireland  and  to  permit  the  Irish  people  to 
create  and  develop  their  own  national  institutions  as  a  free  State. 
The  objection  to  this  on  the  side  of  Great  Britain  is  avowedly  based 
on  strategic  considerations.  A  free  Ireland  she  declares  to  be  a  mili- 
tary danger.  Whilst  strongly  protesting  against  the  denial  of  free- 
dom from  such  a  motive,  we  believe  at  the  same  time  that  no  ground 
for  this  objection  exists,  and  that  a  settlement  may  be  reached  which, 
with  the  friendly  aid  of  America,  would  set  at  rest  all  such  fears, 
reasonable  or  unreasonable.  Republican  Ireland  has  repeatedly  af- 
firmed through  her  leaders  her  willingness  to  enter  into  a  treaty  with 
Great  Britain  which  would  secure  friendly  relations  between  the  two 
peoples. 

"  'The  problem.'  stated  Mr.  de  Valera,  'can  only  be  solved  by  a 
Treaty  of  Peace  signed  by  the  accredited  representatives  of  the  two 
peoples,  on  the  basis  of  a  guarantee  of  Ireland's  independence  on  the 
one  hand  and  a  guarantee  of  British  security  on  the  other,  by  some 
international  instrument.  The  Irish  people  will,  I  believe,  readily 
consent  to  give  Britain  a  guarantee  which  can  be  ratified  interna- 
tionally, that  they  will  not  allow  their  island  to  be  used  as  a  base  for 
an  attack  on   British  independence.' 

IRELAND  SEEKS  ONLY  INDEPENDENCE 

"And  Mr.  Griffith  has  spoken  to  the  English  people  as  follows: 
'Ireland  seeks  no  more  than  the  acknowledgment  of  her  independence. 
Provided  that  acknowledgment  be  made,  she  is  quite  ready  to  enter 
into  a  treaty  by  which  the  independence  and  security  of  the  two  coun- 
tries can  be  mutually  guaranteed.  .  .  .  Freely  admit  that  Ireland 
has  the  right  to  choose  her  own  government,  and  Ireland  ceases  to  be 
your  enemy.  Some  of  your  politicians  refer  to  Ireland  as  an  enemy 
on  your  flank.  When  you  deal  with  Ireland  as  nation  with  nation, 
there  will  no  longer  be  an  enemy  on  your  flank.  She  will  be  a  coun- 
try by  your  side  whose  interest  and  whose  will  it  will  be  to  live  in 
peace  and  amity  with  you.' 

"In  order  to  prove  Ireland's  material  interest  in  maintaining  friendly 
relations  with  England,  it  is  only  necessary  to  state  that  the  trade 
between  the  two  countries  is  worth  £250,000,000  a  year,  and  that  each 
is  the  other's  best  customer.     (Sparling's  Journal.) 


1052 

AMERICAN   MEDIATION   ETHICAL   AND 
PRACTICAL 

"We  believe  that  Ireland's  devotion  to  the  national  cause,  her  suf- 
ferings, and  her  endurance  must  stir  the  conscience  of  America  and 
of  all  free  nations.  The  Irish  problem  affects  the  ordered  and  peace- 
ful progress  of  humanity  and  raises  issues  vital  to  the  growth  of 
human  liberty. 

"There  are  many  practical  reasons  which  make  the  present  case  of 
Ireland  a  source  of  interest  and  anxiety  to  America.  It  is  not  for  us 
to  enlarge  upon  these.  But  both  ethical  and  practical  considerations 
lead  us  to  the  belief  that  America  would  be  justified  in  proposing  to 
act  as  mediator  in  the  present  crisis  and  in  giving  moral  support  to 
that  growing  section  of  the  English  people  who  are  prepared  to  con- 
cede to  Ireland  her  just  rights  as  a  nation. 

"If  America  and  Great  Britain  were  to  cooperate  in  negotiating 
such  a  practical  application  of  their  own  professed  principles  regard- 
ing small  nations,  we  might  then  hope  to  see  the  principle  of  self- 
determination — which  the  Women's  International  League  have  as- 
serted to  be  the  essential  basis  of  a  truly  righteous  and  durable  inter- 
national covenant — introduced  into  the  constitution  of  the  League  of 
Nations,  or  (as  we  would  prefer)  of  a  new  and  more  truly  demo- 
cratic covenant. 

IRISH  SPIRIT  OF  NATIONALITY  UNCONQUERABLE 

"The  Irish  people  have  proved  how  unconquerable  is  the  spirit  of 
nationality.  The  peace  and  happiness  of  the  world  depend  upon  the 
measure  of  freedom  given  to  that  spirit.  If  Ireland  wins  her  freedom 
now,  the  world  will  see  a  triumph  of  spiritual  over  material  forces, 
and  may  look  forward  to  the  future  with  a  diminished  dread  of  dev- 
astating wars." 

Commissioner  Addams:  Thank  you  very  much.  We  are  very  glad 
to  get  that  in.  I  am  sure  the  Commission  is  very  grateful  to  these 
two  ladies  for  coming  over.  They  had  a  very  uncomfortable  jour- 
ney, which  they  braved  for  a  long  ten  days  to  give  this  testimony 
before  the  Commission,  and  we  appreciate  it  very  much. 

The  next  hearing  of  the  Commission  is  indefinite.  We  will  come 
together  on  the  call  of  the  Chair.  The  hearing  will  now  be  con- 
sidered closed. 

(Thereupon,  at  4:20  P.  M.,  Wednesday,  January  19,  1921,  the 
Commission  adjourned  sine  die.) 


1053 
EXHIBIT  I 

SUBMITTED  TO 

THE  AMERICAN  COMMISSION  ON  CONDITIONS 
IN  IRELAND 

Memorandum   cm   English    Armed    Aggression    Against    the    Irish    People 
Resulting  in  the  Killing  of  Policemen 

In  response  to  the  request  made  by  the  Chairman  of  the  American 
Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland  during  the  testimony  of  Miss 
Mary  MacSwiney,  the  following  statement,  tracing  the  development 
of  the  present  British  campaign  of  military  terrorism,  is  respectfully 
submitted  by   counsel : 

NINETEEN  HUNDRED  SIXTEEN 
Following  the  rising  in  Dublin  during  Easter  week,  1916,  the  British 
government  instituted  an  aggressive  and  ruthless  policy  of  suppression, 
designed  to  destroy  the  Republican  movement.  During  this  period  the 
policy  was  directed  particularly  against  those  suspected  of  being  leaders 
in  the  Republican  movement.  Many  of  the  leaders  who  were  taken  prison- 
ers during  the  rising  of  Easter  week,  1916,  were  executed  under  conditions 
which  arpused  vehement  protest  in  England.  At  the  same  time  a  number 
of  persons  innocent  of  any  official  connection  with  the  Republican  move- 
ment were  ruthlessly  murdered  in  what  have  come  to  be  known  as  the 
"King  Street  atrocities."  In  all  thirty-eight  Irish  men  and  women  were 
killed  by  the  armed  forces  of  the  English  government  during  the  period 
May  to  December,  1916.  The  principal  efforts  of  the  British  during  1916 
were,  however,  directed  toward  an  attempt  to  conduct  a  complete  "round- 
up" of  all  the  leaders  of  the  Republican  movement,  apparently  upon  the 
theory  that  if  the  leaders  were  removed  the  desire  for  freedom  upon  the 
part  of  the  Irish  people  would  be  dissipated.  In  accordance  with  this 
policy  there  were,  during  the  year  1916,  3,226  arrests  and  1,949  deportations 
of  men  and  women  suspected  of  connection  with  the  Irish  Republican 
movement.  Although  the  British  courts  were  at  this  time  functioning, 
the  larger  number  of  the  thousands  arrested  were  held  in  custody  for  long 
periods,  and  deported  without  trial  and  without  any  charge  being  formally 
lodged  against  them. 

NINETEEN  HUNDRED  SEVENTEEN 
During  the  twelve  months  of  1917  there  were  no  police  killed  in  Ireland, 
with  the  sole  possible  exception  of  an  Inspector  who  was  injured  while 
leading  a  baton  charge  against  Dublin  civilians,  and  who  died  later  of  his 
injuries.  But  in  that  year  the  political  suppression  of  the  Irish  people 
was  carried  out  in  every  part  of  Ireland  by  English  military  and  police. 
The  houses  of  prominent  Irishmen  were  forcibly  entered  and  searched. 
Three  hundred  and  forty-nine  Irish  men  and  women  were  arrested  for 
political  offenses.  Twenty-four  leaders  of  opinion  in  Ireland  were  deported 
without  trial  to  England  for  unknown  and  undetermined  periods.  Public 
meetings  were  suppressed,  and  in  many  cases  when  efforts  were  made  to 
hold  them,  they  were  forcibly  broken  up  by  armed  military  and  police  who 
used  rifle  butts,  bayonets  and  batons  on  women  and  children  as  well  as 
on  men.  Newspapers  with  nationalistic  sentiments  were  suppressed,  and 
a  rigorous  censorship  maintained  against  all  others.  Civilians  were 
brought  before  courts-martial  and  given  savage  sentences  for  "seditious 
speeches"  and  kindred  offenses.  Two  innocent  civilians  were  murdered 
by  military  and  police  ;  five  died  of  maltreatment  in  prison  ;  upwards  of 
one  hundred  were  wounded  in  baton  and  bayonet  charges.  None  of  the 
armed  forces  guilty  of  these  offenses  was  ever  brought  to  justice,  and  in 
two  instances  it  is  known  that  policemen  against  whom  verdicts  of  murder 
or  unjustifiable  killing  were   returned  were  promoted   by   their  authorities. 


1054 


NINETEEN   HUNDRED   EIGHTEEN 

In  the  twelve  months  of  1918  there  were  no  police  killed  in  Ireland. 
The  attempts  to  suppress  the  national  movement  in  1917  had  resulted  in 
failure.  The  establishment  of  the  so-called  Irish  Convention,  which  was 
designed  to  break  the  national  unity,  was  not  successful,  and  in  the  year 
1918  the  aggression  against  the  Irish  people  by  British  military  and  police 
was  intensified.  Private  residences  to  the  number  of  two  hundred  and 
sixty  were  raided  at  night  by  armed  agents  of  the  English  Government. 
One  thousand  one  hundred  and  seven  Irish  men  and  women  were  arrested 
for  political  offenses.  In  May  of  1918,  seventy-seven  leaders  of  the  na- 
tional movement  were  arrested  and  deported  without  charge  or  trial. 
Warrants  were  issued  for  the  arrest  of  many  others,  and  as  these  were 
hunted  down,  later  in  the  year,  they  were  deported  also  without  trial. 
Some  forty  proclamations  were  issued  suppressing  public  meetings  of 
national  organizations.  In  spite  of  these  proclamations  the  Irish  people 
endeavored  to  hold  public  meetings.  Eighty-one  meetings,  at  which  there 
was  no  disturbance  or  disorder,  were  broken  up  by  baton  and  bayonet 
charges,  and  hundreds  of  men,  women  and  children  were  wounded.  Eleven 
National  newspapers  were  suppressed.  Many  of  the  thousand  Irish  politi- 
cal prisoners  were  maltreated  in  prison,  and  one  died  of  the  effects  of  his 
treatment.  Five  Irish  civilians  were  murdered  by  English  military,  and 
no  punishment  or  even  reproach  was  visited  upon  the  murderers. 

In  the  year  1918  economic  duress  was  added  to  the  weapons  with  which 
the  English  military  authorities  hoped  to  break  the  national  demand  for 
self-determination.  The  natural  forerunner  of  the  present-day  destruction 
of  Irish  mills,  factories,  and  creameries  showed  itself  in  this  one-sided 
ruthless  war  upon  the  Irish  people.  All  fairs  and  markets  were  now 
suppressed  by  the  English  authorities  in  districts  sympathetic  with  the 
movement  for  independence,  thus  effectively  paralyzing  the  economic  life 
of  the  rural  districts. 

The  Patience  of  the  Irish  People 
During  these  two  years  the  Irish  people  bore  this  incessant  provocation 
with  what  a  certain  distinguished  foreign  visitor  to  Ireland  described  as 
"an  almost  criminal  patience."  The  national  energies  were  devoted  to 
upbuilding  a  great  political  organization  by  which  the  national  demand 
for  independence  might  be  expressed  constitutionally.  In  December,  1918, 
this  peaceful  organization  bore  fruit.  The  Irish  people  in  the  general 
election  held  during  that  month  repudiated  English  authority  in  Ireland, 
and  elected  their  own  Parliament  and  Government.  This  constitutional 
expression  of  the  people's  will,  instead  of  being  acknowledged  by  the  Eng- 
lish Government,  was  replied  to  by  that  Government's  troops  and  police 
with  more  intense  aggression  than  ever.  After  two  years  a  people  pro- 
voked by  ruthless  suppression,  raiding,  arresting,  deportation,  armed  as- 
saults and  murder,  began  to  prepare  for  the  more  intense  measures  they 
foresaw.  They  were  not  permitted  to  import  arms  or  munitions  for  their 
defense.  Therefore  they  decided  to  take  arms  from  their  oppressors.  In 
January  of  1919  the  first  policeman  was  shot  in  the  struggle  accompanying 
one  of  these  raids  for  arms.  The  cry  was  at  once  raised  in  the  English 
press  that  the  Republican  movement  was  led  by  murderers  and  terrorists, 
and  should  be  sternly  suppressed.  Under  cover  of  this  cry,  military  and 
police  aggression  increased  enormously. 

NINETEEN  HUNDRED  AND  NINETEEN 
In  the  twelve  months  of  1919  fourteen  thousand  residences  were  raided 
at  night  by  armed  military  and  police.  Three  hundred  and  thirty-five 
meetings  were  suppressed  or  proclaimed.  Every  National  organization, 
even  the  elected  Government,  was  declared  illegal,  and  active  participation 
in  its  proceedings  was  decreed  a  criminal  offense.  Fairs  and  markets  were 
suppressed  in  the  counties  of  Cork,  Clare,  Mayo,  Kerry,  Limerick,  Tip- 
perary,  and  Galway.  Whole  districts  were  brought  to  the  verge  of  bank- 
ruptcy in  the  effort  to  force  them  to  abandon  the  claim  to  independence, 


1055 


Four  hundred  and  seventy-six  armed  attacks  were  made  by  troops  and 
police  upon  peaceful  and  orderly  gatherings  of  civilians.  Two  hundred 
and  sixty  Irish  men,  women  and  children  were  wounded  by  bayonet  thrusts, 
rifle  fire  or  the  blows  of  rifle  butts.  Nine  hundred  and  fifty-nine  arrests 
war  made  for  political  offenses.  Twenty  leaders,  in  addition  to  the  hun- 
dreds already  in  prison,  were  deported.  Twenty-five  National  newspapers 
were  suppressed.  Eight  civilians  were  murdered  by  military  and  police, 
and  no  effort  was  made  to  bring  the  murderers  to  justice. 

The  Killing  of  Policemen 
During  the  twelve  months  of  1919,  sixteen  policemen  were  killed  in 
Ireland.  The  majority  of  them  were  killed  in  conflicts  between  armed 
bodies  of  men  and  police  infinitely  better  armed.  In  these  conflicts,  which 
had  as  their  one  object  the  securing  of  arms,  the  police  casualties  have 
been  advertised  as  "cowardly  murders."  There  have  been,  in  fact,  on  these 
occasions  as  many  civilian  casualties  as  there  have  been  police  casualties. 
None  of  these  civilian  casualties  is  counted  as  a  murder  in  these  lists.  In 
spite  of  the  16,450  acts  of  armed  aggression  against  the  Irish  people  com- 
mitted by  military  and  police  in  the  year  1919,  the  national  demand  for 
independence  was  persisted  in. 

No  clearer  statement  has  ever  been  made  with  reference  to  the  question 
of  the  killing  of  policemen  than  that  contained  in  an  editorial  in  the 
London  Nation  of  November  13,   1920,  page  212,  as   follows  : 

"The  quarrel  between  Ireland  and  the  British  Government  is  not 
over  murder.  It  did  not  begin  with  murder.  It  would  not  cease  if 
murder  ceased  tomorrow.  In  the  course  of  the  two  years  1917  and 
1918  one  single  policeman  was  murdered.  In  those  same  two  years 
there  were  1,500  political  arrests;  fairs,  markets,  and  other  gatherings 
of  unarmed  men  and  women  were  broken  up  by  violence,  and  the  great 
majority  of  the  men  returned  to  Parliament  by  Irish  constituencies 
were  arrested  or  pursued  by  the  Government."    (Italics  as  in  original.) 

NINETEEN  HUNDRED  TWENTY 

The  policy  of  raids,  suppressions,  arrests,  and  widespread  terrorism, 
which  characterized  1919  proved  to  be  futile,  and  instead  of  destroying 
the  Republican  movement,  greatly  increased  its  strength.  On  January  21. 
1919,  the  Republic  of  Ireland  had  been  definitely  established  as  the  result 
of  the  mandate  given  for  its  establishment  by  the  Irish  electorate  in  the 
general  election  of  December.  1918.  A  Parliament  was  created,  and  a 
government  responsible  to  it  was  selected.  Departments  for  the  various 
offices  of  state  were  established.  The  organization  of  the  Republic  by  the 
elected  government  was  then  begun.  During  the  twelve  months  following, 
in  spite  of  the  active  efforts  of  the  British  soldiers  and  police,  the  Irish 
Republic  succeeded  in .  establishing  a  de  facto  government,  recognized  and 
supported  by  more  than  eighty  per  cent,  of  the  Irish  people.  The  Irish 
Republican  courts  superseded  the  British  courts,  and  the  British  govern- 
ment in  Ireland  ceased  to  function  throughout  the  greater  part  of  the 
country,  except  for  the  activities  of  its  spies,  nolice,  and  soldiers.  This 
was  the  condition  described  by  the  Honorable  Herbert  H,  Asquith,  when 
on  June  2,  1919,  he  said: 

"Lord  French  is  at  present  Viceroy  of  Ireland,  which  is  the  darkest 
of  the  dark  spots  on  the  map,  not  of  Great  Britain,  but  of  the  world." 
Later  in  the  same  year  Hon.  Herbert  Samuel,  former  Cabinet  Minister, 
said  : 

"Ireland  is  now  being  governed  under  military  law.     If  what  is  now 
going  on  in  Ireland  had  been  going  on   in   the   Austrian    Empire,   all 
England   would   be   ringing   with    denunciation   of   the    tyranny    of   the 
Hapsburgs    and    of    denving    people    the    right    to    rule    themselves." 
(Speech  at  St.  Albans,  December  8,  1919.) 
The   conclusive    failure    of    the    British    policy    of    coercion    during    1910 
came   in   the  municipal   elections   held   in   January,    1920,   in    which   the   Re- 
publican policy  was  endorsed  by  even   a  greater  majority   than   it  had   re- 


1056 


ceived  in  the  general  election  of  1918.  Inroads  were  made  on  the  strong- 
holds of  Unionism  in  Ulster,  and  conclusive  proof  was  given  to  the  world 
that  coercion  by  arrests,  suppression,  and  wholesale  raids  was  increasing 
the  determination  of  the  Irish  people  to  secure  their  independence. 

Inauguration  of  a  Policy  of  Fright  fulness 
The  English  Cabinet  was  thus  brought  to  a  realization  that  the  ordinary 
methods  of  arrest  and  imprisonment  which  had  been  the  ruling  policy 
during  1919  would  not  break  the  spirit  of  the  Irish  people.  During  the 
last  days  of  March,  1920,  therefore,  the  adoption  of  a  policy  of  organized 
military  terrorism  was  decided  upon  by  the  English  Cabinet.  On  March 
28,  1920,  the  London  Daily  Express,  mouthpiece  of  Mr.  Bonar  Law,  an- 
nounced that  General  Sir  Nevil  Macready,  Chief  Commissioner  of  the 
London  Metropolitan  Police,  had  been  appointed  commander-in-chief  of 
the  English  Army  of  Occupation  in  Ireland.  In  making  the  announcement 
the  Daily  Express  said : 

"His  (Sir  Nevil's)   sudden  appointment  to  Ireland  and  his  dramatic 
departure  from  police  headquarters  indicates  that  once  again  the  Gov- 
ernment requires  a  firmer  hand  on  the  military  lever  in  Ireland,  and 
that  a  new  method  of  dealing  with  Irish  disturbances  is  to  be  adopted." 
On  March  29  the  Pall  Mall  Gacette,  the  London  evening  organ  of  the 
English  Prime  Minister,  referred  to  the  appointment  of  Sir  Nevil  Macready 
and  said: 

"The  very  wide  powers  to  be  conferred  on  him  will  enable  him  to 
employ  not  only  the   military  and  police   forces  at  his  discretion,  but 
other  means  and  forces  will  be  available  to  deal  with  whatever  circum- 
stances may  arise." 
On  April  3  the  London  Daily  Mail  said  : 

"Sir  Nevil  Macready,  who  is  leaving  for  Ireland  shortly  to  take  up 
his  new  post  as  commander  of  the  forces  there,  has  been  given  practi- 
cally a  free  hand  by  the  Cabinet." 
On  the  same  day  the  London  Morning  Post  said  : 

"Sir  Nevil  Macready  is  about  to  assume  the  command  of  the  mili- 
tary forces  in  Ireland,  and  we  assume  that  he  is  instructed  to  suppress 
the  rebellion  by  whatever  means  may  be  requisite." 
On  April  10  the  press  announced  the  retirement  of  those  among  the  high 
officials  of  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  who  were  known  to  be  opposed 
to  a  policy  of  frightfulness.     The  officials  who  were  ask-^d  to  retire  were 
Mr.  W.  M.  Davies,  Deputy  Inspector  General  of  the  R.  I.  C,  and  Messrs. 
H.   D.  Tyacke  and   R.   S.   C.  Flower,  Assistant  Inspectors   General  of  the 
R.  I.  C.     The  press  on  the  same  day  stated  that  these  officials  were  to  be 
replaced  by  Mr.  C.  A.  Walsh,  Mr.  A.  A.  Roberts,  and  Mr.  E.  M.  Clayton, 
officers   who   had   proved  their   thoroughness   in    aggression.      Some   short 
time    previously    Inspector    General    Sir   J.   A.    Byrne   was   removed    from 
office  and  his  place  was  taken  by  Mr.  T.  J.   Smith,  a  notorious  advocate 
of  aggressive  measures. 

On   April   23   the    London   Daily    Chronicle,    semi-official   organ    of    the 
English   Coalition  Government,   stated : 

"The   new    policy   which   the    Government   has    decided   to   adopt   in 

Ireland  is  being  rapidly  developed.    .    .    .    General  Macready  has  the 

full  confidence  of  the   Cabinet." 

On    May    11,    1920,    an    English    Cabinet   meeting   was    held    in    London. 

Sir   Nevil   Macready  was  present  at   this   Cabinet   meeting  and   took  part 

in  its  proceedings.     On  May  12,  Mr.  Bonar  Law  was  asked  a  question  in 

the  English  House  of  Commons  as  to  what  steps  had  been  taken  to  secure 

greater  coordination  between  military  and  police  in   Ireland.     He   replied  : 

"I    am   glad   there    is   an    opportunity   of    answering    that.      General 

Macready  has  already  taken  most  important  steps,  and  yesterday,   in 

consultation    with   a   conference   of   the    Cabinet,   he   had   many   other 

sugggestions  to  make,  all  of  which  will  be  granted  by  the  Cabinet.     He 

does   believe   that   in   a  comparatively   short   time   the   changes   he   has 

made  will  show  effect." 


I  Of)  7 


On  May  13,  Lord  Birkenhead  (late  Staff  Officer  of  Sir  Edward  Carson's 
Volunteers),  who  was  present  at  the  Cabinet  conference  which  had  dis- 
cussed the  "'suggestions"  of  Sir  Nevil  Macready,  spoke  at  a  dinner  in 
London,  and   said : 

"I  cannot  speak  here  tonight  of  what  the  Executive  have  done  or  to 

tell  you  of  the  conclusions  they  have  reached;  but  I  can  tell  you  this. 

that  as   a   Government   we   have   decided   to   reinforce   these   men    (the 

Constabulary)    by   every   means   in    our   power.     .     .     .     We   have   taken 

special   and  wholly  exceptional   steps." 

On   June    I1).   Divisional    Commissioner    Smyth    addressed    the   policemen 

in    the    police    barracks    at    Listowel    and    outlined    the    new    policy    of    the 

English  Government,  and   instructed  them  as    follows:1 

1.  "I  am  getting  7,000  police  from  England." 

2.  "If  a  police  barracks  is  burned,  the  best  house   in  the  locality  is 
to  be  commandeered." 

3.  "The   police  are  to  He   in   ambush   and   to   shoot    suspects." 

4.  "The  more  you  shoot  the  better  1  will  like  you.    ...    No  police- 
man will  get   into  trouble    for   shooting  any  man." 

5.  "Hunger    strikers    will    be    allowed    to    die    in    jail— the    more    the 
merrier." 

6.  "We  want  your  assistance  in  carrying  out  this  scheme  and  wip- 
ing out  Sinn  Fein." 

On  the  same  day  it  was  announced  to  the  police  in  Tralee  barracks  that 
inquests  on  victims  of  police  shootings  were  about  to  be  abolished  by  the 
English  Government.  Some  of  the  police  to  whom  these  announcements 
had  been  made  resented  them  and  made  them  public. 

It  was  denied  by  Sir  Hamar  Greenwood,  English  Chief  Secretary  for 
Ireland,  on  July  22,  in  the  English  House  of  Commons,  that  any  such 
statements  had  been  made,  but  on  the  following  day,  July  23,  Inspector 
General  T.  J.  Smith  issued  an  order  to  the  Royal  Irish  Constabulary  an- 
nouncing that  "the  Government  has  directed"  that  no  prisoners  were  to  be 
released  until  they  had  served  their  sentences;  in  other  words,  "Hunger 
strikers  will  be  allowed  to  die." 

On  August  2,  the  English  Chief  Secretary  for  Ireland  introduced  in  the 
House  of  Commons  the  Restoration  of  Order  in  Ireland  Bill,  one  of  the 
clauses  of  which  made  coroners'  inquests  illegal.  The  Chief  Secretary 
admitted  in  the  introduction  of  this  bill  that  it  had  been  drafted  in  the 
previous  June:  in  other  words,  it  was  known  in  that  month  to  the  English 
officials  in  Ireland  that  it  was  the  English  Government's  intention  to  sup- 
press coroners'  inquests.  All  of  the  other  points  of  Divisional  Commis- 
sioner Smyth's  review  of  the  "special  and  wholly  exceptional  steps"  the 
English  Government  had  on  May  11  decided  to  take  in  regard  to  Ireland 
have  been  borne  out  by  events  subsequent  to  the  Commissioner's  speech. 
Thousands  of  English  recruits  are  feeing- brought  to  Ireland  as  "police- 
men." Whenever  a  police  barracks  is  burned,  the  houses  of  prominent 
Republicans  are  commandeered  or  burned  by  the  "police."  More  than  one 
hundred  and  fifty  innocent  civilians  have  been  murdered  since  the  Com- 
missioner's speech  was  delivered.  That  the  Divisional  Commissioner's 
address  to  the  police  in  Listowel  was  an  outline  of  the  official  policy  of  the 
English  Government  is  no  longer  in  doubt. 

The  New  Policy  in  Operation 
Meanwhlie,  General  Sir  Nevil  Macready's  "suggestions"  to  the  English 
Cabinet,  "all  of  which"  were  approved  by  that  Cabinet,  were  put  into 
operation.  During  the  five  months  following  the  English  Cabinet  meeting 
held  in  London  on  May  11,  1920,  one  hundred  thirty-three  Irish  towns  and 
villages  were  sacked,  "shot  up,"  or  partially  burned.  Sir  Nevil  Macready, 
having  "the  full  confidence  of  the  Cabinet,"  has  not  shirked  at  taking 
responsibility  for  this  policy  of  terrorism  which,  in  the  words  of  Divisional 


See  testimony  of  Rev.  AT.  M.  English,  pp.  66-67. 


1058 

Commissioner  Smyth,  has  for  its  object  "the  wiping  out  of  Sinn  Fein." 
On  September  23,  two  days  after  the  sack  of  Balbriggan,  which  was  ac- 
companied by  the  savage  murder  of  Lawless  and  Gibbons,  a  secret  order 
was  issued  to  the  English  troops  in  Ireland  by  direction  of  the  "G.  O.  C. 
in  C."  or  General  Sir  Nevil  Macready.     In  that  secret  order  it  was  said : 

"There  are  indications  that  the  measures  recently  taken  by  the  Gov- 
ernment for  the  suppression  of  disorders  in  Ireland  are  beginning  to 
bear    fruit    and    have   the    desired   effects    in,    at    any    rate,    the    more 
moderate  sections  of  Sinn  Fein.    .    .    .    Without  being  unduly  optimis- 
tic, the  Irish  Government  hope  that  if  the  pressure  is  maintained  and 
if  certain   other  measures  which  they  have  in  view  are  successful,   a 
great   improvement   in   the   situation   may   take   place   within   the   next 
two  months." 
With  reference  to  this  "great  improvement"  predicted  by  General  Mac- 
ready,  The  New  Statesman,  a  London  weekly,  said  editorially  on  Novem- 
ber 13,  1920: 

"Whatever  doubts  we  may  have  about  the   facts  of   individual  out- 
rages,  Mr.   Lloyd   George  and  Sir   Hamar   Greenwood   can  no   longer 
deny  that  men  who,  in  the  last  resort,  act  under  their  orders  commit 
numerous  and  atrocious   crimes.     They  know  that  murder,   theft  and 
arson  are  becoming  a  commonplace   rfc  whatever  part  of   Ireland  the 
Black-and-Tans  enter.     They  know  that  women  and  children  have  to 
hurry  out  of  their  beds  at  midnight  to  escape  from  houses  deliberately 
set  on   fire  by   the  agents  of   law   and   order.     They  know   that   men, 
including  a  priest  and  a  policeman  who  resigned  rather  than  take  part 
in  a  'shooting-up'  orgy,  have  been  dragged   from  their  beds,  stripped 
naked  and  flogged.     They  know  that  Army  discipline   itself  is  giving 
way  before  officially  licensed  brutality  and  violence.     They  know  that 
British   newspaper   correspondents  have  been   threatened   with  murder 
for  speaking  the   truth.     They  know  that   Lord   Bryce's   sister-in-law, 
the  daughter  of  a  British  officer,  has  been  insulted  by  an  officer  in  the 
present  Army,  and  haled  back  from  a  British  port  to  a  prison  cell  in 
Ireland.     They  know  that   between   thirty   and    forty   creameries   have 
been  burnt  down  by  Black-and-Tans,  soldiers  and  police.     They  know 
that  such  a  state  of  Government  terrorism  exists  in  Ireland  as  would 
seem  horrible  even  under  Turkish  auspices  in  the  Balkans." 
The  history  of  the  last  three  months  of  1920  is  one  well  known  to  the 
Commission   through   the   testimony   of   eye-witnesses   and   expert    English 
investigators.     It  is  needless,   therefore,   to   reiterate  what   is   already  con- 
tained in  the  Commission's  records.     The  burning  and  sacking  of   farms, 
creameries,   private   houses,   towns    and    even   great   cities    like    Cork ;    the 
complete   destruction   of   the   economic   and   industrial   life   of   the   nation; 
the  raids  upon  cathedrals,  convents  and  institutions  of  learning;  the  mur- 
der of  two  priests  under  circumstance*  of  the  utmost  brutality ;  and  finally 
the  murder  of  a  woman   (Mrs.  Ellen  Quinn)   with  her  child  in  her  arms 
and  another   about  to   be   born,   justified   by   Sir   Hamar   Greenwood   as   a 
"precautionary  measure" — all  these  are  matters  which  directly  or  indirectly 
have  been  brought  to  the  attention  of  your  honorable  commission.     They 
are   the    circumstantial    evidence    which    proves    that    Divisional    Inspector 
Smyth  outlined  to   the  policemen  of   Listowel   barracks   the   official   policy 
of  the   British   Government  in    Ireland. 

NINETEEN  TWENTY-ONE 
No  new  departure  in  policy  appears  during  these  months  of  unceasing 
outrages  and  atrocities  until  January  2,  1921,  when  an  order  was  issued 
by  the  Brigade  Major  for  Cork  openly  announcing  a  policy  of  reprisals 
without  parallel  in  modern  history.  This  statement  as  quoted  verbatim  in 
the  Associated  Press  dispatches  published  in  American  papers  of  January 
3,   1921,   reads   as    follows: 

"As  the  result  of  the  ambush  and  attack  on  the  police  at  Midleton 
and  Glebehouse  it  was  decided  by  the  Military  Governor  that  certain 
houses   in   the   vicinity   of   the   outrages   were   to   be   destroyed,   as  the 


1059 

inhabitants  were  bound  to  have  known  of  the  ambush  and  attack  and 
that  they  neglected  to  give  any  information  either  to  the  military   or 
police  authorities.     The  following  houses  were  duly  destroyed  between 
3  P.  M.  and  6  P.  M.  on  Jan.  1.     (List  of  houses  destroyed  appended.) 
"Previous  to  the  burnings  notice  was  served  on  the  persons  affected, 
giving  them  one  hour  to  clear  out  valuables,  but  not   furniture." 
This   statement  merely  announces  the  consummation  of  the  instructions 
contained    in    the    proclamation    of    General    Strickland,    commanding    the 
British  forces  in  South  Ireland:  "The  attitude  of  neutrality  is  inconsistent 
with    loyalty,    and    will    render    such    persons    punishable."       (New    York 
Times,  January  3,   1921.)      It   should  be  noted   in  this  connection  that  the 
statement  of  the   Brigade  Major   for   Cork,   quoted  above,   shows  that  the 
homes   of  the   Irish   people   are   to  be   burned   merely   upon    suspicion   that 
"the  inhabitants  were  bound  to  have  known"  of  the  plans  of  the   Repub- 
lican forces. 

These  openly  avowed  declarations  of  British  policy  violate  the  Hague 
Convention  of  1907,  respecting  the  laws  and  customs  of  war  on  land,  to 
which  Great  Britain  was  a  signatory.  The  articles  particularly  violated 
are  Articles  Twenty-three  (g)  of  Section  II,  and  Forty-four  and  Forty-six 
of  Section  III,  which  read  as   follows: 

"Article  23 :  In  addition  to  the  prohibitions  provided  by  special 
conventions,   it  is   particularly   forbidden — 

"(g)  To  destroy  or  seize  enemy  property,  unless  such  destruction 
or  seizure  be  imperatively  demanded  by  the  necessities  of  war. 

"Article  44:  A  belligerent  is  forbidden  to  force  the  inhabitants  of 
territory  occupied  by  it  to  furnish  information  about  the  army  of  the 
other  belligerent  or  about  its  means  of   defense. 

"Article  46:   Family  honor  and  rights,   individual  life,  and  private 
property,   as   well   as   religious   convictions   and   worship,   must   be    re- 
spected.    Private  property  may  not  be  confiscated." 
Reviewing  this  brief  outline  of  British  policy  in  Ireland,  the  conclusion 
is  inescapable  that  from  the  beginning  the  policy  has  been  one  of  ruthless 
extermination,  which  has  grown  bolder  and  bolder,  and  at  last  has  been 
openly  avowed  as  the  Government  of  Great  Britain  has  failed  to  hear  the 
voice  of  any  civilized  nation  officially  raised  in  protest  against  her  flagrant 
violations  of  international  law  governing  warfare  upon  land,  by  which  all 
civilized  nations  have  solemnly  pledged  themselves  to  be  bound. 
Respectfully  submitted, 

Frank  P.  Walsh,  Counsel. 
By  B.  M.  M. 


EXHIBIT  II 

MEMORANDUM  ON  BRITISH  ATROCITIES  IN 

IRELAND— 1916  THROUGH  1920 

The  following  statement  of  British  atrocities  in  Ireland  has  been  pre- 
pared in  response  to  the  request  made  by  the  Chairman  of  the  American 
Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland  in  connection  with  the  testimony  of 
Miss  Mary  MacSwiney.     This  statement  consists  of  two  parts  : 

First,  a  statistical  summary  of  outrages  committed  by  the  armed  forces 
of  the  English  Government  upon  the  people  of  Ireland  from  May,  1916, 
through  December  31,  1920. 

Second,  a  summary  and  detailed  list  of  the  individuals  slain  by  the 
armed  forces  of  the  British  Government  during  the  years  of  1917  through 
1920.  as  compiled  from  court  records,  newspapers,  and  official  records  of 
the  Irish  Republican  Government. 

Respectfully  submitted, 

Frank  P.  Walsh,  Counsel. 
By   B.   M.    M. 


1060 

PART  I 

Summary  of  British  Atrocities 
The   following  summary  has  been   prepared   from   records    compiled   by 
the  Government  of  the  Irish  Republic.    These  statistics  in  whole  or  in  part 
have  been  repeatedly  published  by  the  Irish  Republic  and  have  never  been 
controverted  : 

1916 
from  May     1917      1918       1919     1920    Totals 

Murders    38  7  6  8         203* 

Towns  sacked  and  burned 4  98f 

Deportations    1,949  24         91  20         467 

Armed  assaults  on  unarmed  civilians 18         81         476         834 

Raids  on  private  houses 11       260     13,782    24,171 

Arrests    3,226        349     1,107         959      4,109 

Proclamations  and  suppressions 2         32         335         106 

Suppressions  of  newspapers 13  3  12  25  t 

Creameries  and  manufacturing  plants   destroyed ...  42§ 

Courts-martial    199  36         62         209         212 

5,425        450     1,651     15,818    30,242    53,586 

including  6  women,  12  children,  10  old  men,  and  2  priests. 

tTo  October  12,  1920. 

JNot  reported. 

§To  November  30,  1920. 

PART  II 

Summary   of  Persons  Assassinated  by   British  Armed  Forces  from   1917 
Through   1920 

During  the  four  years,  1917  to  1920,  224  Irish  men,  women,  and  children 
have  been  assassinated  by  the  armed  forces  of  the  British  Government, 
as  follows : 

1917 7 

1918 6 

1919 8 

1920 203 

The  figures  for  1920  are  drawn  from  a  cable  just  received  from  Mr.  Art 
O'Brien,  representative  of  the  elected  Government  of  Ireland  in  Great 
Britain. 

This  cable  further  notes  that  of  this  203  murders  in  1920,  there  were 
6  women,  12  children,  10  old  men,  and  2  priests. 

A  dispatch  printed  in  the  New  York  Times  of  January  5,  1921,  giving  a 
total  of  212  persons  assassinated  by  British  police  and  military  during 
1920,  reported  9  killed  in  armed  conflict,  36  while  prisoners,  69  in  their 
homes,  and  98  by  indiscriminate  firing.  But  the  foregoing  summary  does 
not  include  Irish  casualties  in  acts  of  war.  It  is  confined  solely  to  the 
murder  of  unarmed  and  defenseless  civilians  by  the  armed  forces  of  the 
Crown. 

(There  follows  a  detailed  statement  giving  date,  name,  address,  circum- 
stances, and  source  of  evidence  of  each  murder  covered  by  above  summary, 
which  detailed  statement  the  Commission  has  on  file  for  reference.) 
******** 

EXHIBIT  III 

TERRORISM  IN  TUAM 

(The  following  documents  were  submitted  in  evidence  by  Miss  Ellen 
Wilkinson,  of  Manchester,  England.  [See  testimony,  p.  604.]  The  origi- 
nal signed  statements,  duly  authenticated,  of  which  the  following  are  true 
and  correct  copies,  are  in  the  possession  of  the  Commission.) 


1061 


A 

RESIGNED  CONSTABLE  SCOURGED  AND  DRIVEN 

FROM  TOWN 

First  Statement  of  H.  Ruddy 

Bishop    St.,   Tuam,  25/9/20. 

I  have  to  state  that  on  the  morning  of  24/9/20,  at  about  2:15  A.  M., 
I  heard  fierce  knocking  at  my  door.  A  man  oustide  said,  "This  is 
Ruddy's" ;  "Open" ;  "We  want  to  get  in."  My  Mrs.  opened  the  door  and 
five  men  came  into  my  house;  4  of  them  entered  my  bedroom;  one  of  them 
carried  an  electric  flash  lamp  similar  to  those  supplied  to  the  police,  the 
others  had  revolvers  in  their  hands.  The  man  who  carried  the  torch  said, 
"Are  you  Mr.  Ruddy?"  I  said,  "Yes."  "Dress  quick,"  he  replied,  "and 
come  along  with  us."  They  then  put  me  into  a  motor  car  which  was 
waiting  close  to  my  house  and  drove  to  Parkmore  Terrace,  where  they 
halted.  Four  of  them  got  off  the  car  and  went  to  a  house  in  the  terrace. 
They  returned  shortly  with  Mr.  Thos.  Owens,  head  porter  with  Gt.  South- 
ern &  Western  Railway.  They  put  Owens  into  the  car  and  drove  as  far 
as  the  Golf  Links  at  Cloonascragh  (2  miles  from  Tuam)  on  the  Athenry 
Road,  where  they  halted,  got  off  the  car,  and  asked  me  to  come  along, 
which  I  did.  When  we  were  about  40  yds.  from  the  car,  one  of  them  said, 
"You  are  the  turn-coat.  You  were  in  the  police  and  resigned  and  turned 
Sinn  Fein.  You  were  seen  leaving  Galway  the  races  day  on  a  motor  car 
with  a  Sinn  Fein  flag  on  the  car.  You  are  a  Sinn  Feiner  now."  One  of 
them  struck  me  on  the  face  with  his  clenched  fist  and  knocked  me  down. 
They  then  compelled  me  to  take  my  trousers  off,  and  put  me  in  a  stooping 
position  with  my  hands  resting  on  my  knees  ;  then  they  cruelly  scourged 
me  with  a  hard,  sharp  instrument  like  a  walking  cane  split  through  the 
center.  The  scourging  lasted  about  10  minutes,  when  one  of  them  said, 
"That  will  do.  There  is  your  road  home," — pointing  towards  Tuam. 
"Leave  the  town  before  a  week  or  your  house  will  be  burned." 

There  are  several  marks  on  my  body  which  bled  a  good  deal  yesterday. 
They  were  all  tall,  strong  men  with  English  accents,  and  wore  trench  coats 
and  caps,  save  the  motor  driver,  who  wore  a  policeman's  uniform  water- 
proof coat;  this  man  spoke  like  an  Irishman.  The  car  was  driven  in  the 
direction  of  Athenry,  and  I  returned  to  my  home,  where  I  arrived  about 
4  A.  M.  (Signed)     Hugh  Ruddy. 

The  above  statement  was  given  to  me  by  Mr.  Ruddy  on  25/9/20. 

(Signed)      (Rev.)  C.  Hannan,  Administrator, 

Tuam. 


Second  Statement  of  H.  Ruddy 

Tuam,  4/10/20. 
I  wish  to  state  that  at  about  3  :30  A.  M.  on  this  date  I  was  awakened 
by  loud  knocking  at  my  door.  I  asked,  "Who  is  there?"  and  a  man  out- 
side said,  "Come  on."  I  opened  the  door  and  about  10  or  12  men  came 
into-  my  house ;  some  were  dressed  in  soldiers'  uniform  and  some  wore 
trench  coats.  One  of  the  men  covered  me  with  a  revolver  and  said,  "Dress 
quick  and  come  along."  When  I  was  dressed  I  asked,  "What  is  all  this 
about?"  and  one  man  said,  "We  gave  you  7  days  to  leave  the  town,  and 
what  steps  have  you  taken  to  leave?"  I  said,  "I  have  no  place  to  go  to, 
and  therefore  I  must  remain."  He  then  said,  "You  are  getting  £3  a  week 
Sinn  Fein  money.  You  are  employed  by  the  Town  Commissioners,  who 
are  a  Sinn  Fein  body."  I  said,  "I  must  live;  I  am  alive  and  cannot  die." 
He  then  said,  "When  you  had  a  good  job  you  did  not  remain  in  it;  seem- 
ingly you  prefer  Sinn  Fein  money  to  the  King's  money,  and  by  your 
remaining  in  this  town  you  are  insulting  your  late  comrades.  The  fact 
that  you  are  walking  around  the  town  is  an  insult  to  your  comrades,  and 
you  are  a  disgrace  to  them."  He  then  presented  a  revolver  and  said, 
"Come  along."     My  Mrs.  then  commenced  screaming,  and  she  said,  "I  will 


1062 


go  also,"  when  one  of  the -raiders  said  to  me,  "We  will  give  you  4  days 
more  to  leave  the  town,  and  if  you  are  not  gone  then  we  will  make  a  bon- 
fire over  you  and  we  will  give  you  no  chance  of  escaping." 

(Signed)     Hugh   Ruddy, 

Ex-Constable,  R.  I.  C. 
This  statement  was  handed  to  me  today  by  Mr.  Ruddy. 

(Signed)      (Rev.)  C.  Hannan,  Administrator, 

Tuam,  4/10/20. 

B 
IRISH  TRADES  UNION  OFFICIALS  FLOGGED 

Statement  of  Thomas  Owens,  Parkmore   Terrace,  Tuam,  County  Galzvay 

On  the  morning  of  the  24th  September  last  at  about  3  A.  M.  I  was 
taken  from  my  house  at  Parkmore  Terrace,  Tuam,  by  a  party  of  uniformed 
auxiliary  police  (R.  I.  C.)  and  conveyed  by  them  in  a  motor  lorry  to  a 
lonely  part  of  the  country  some  four  miles  distant  where,  having  been  first 
stripped  of  my  trousers,  I  was  brutally  beaten  by  them  with  their  belts, 
the  buckled  ends  of  which  were  applied  to  my  back  and  body  generally  in 
a  merciless  manner  for  a  considerable  time.  I  was  then  allowed  to  walk  or 
rather  to  crawl  home  (was  told  to  run  but  was  unable)  as  best  I  could, 
many  shots  being  discharged  over  my  head  as  I  went  away. 

As  result  of  the  beating  I  received  at  the  hands  of  those  men  I  have 
been  since  then  unable  to  resume  work,  and  have  been  medically  treated 
by  Dr.  Thos.  B.  Costello  of  Tuam.  At  present  the  wounds  on  my  back 
resulting  from  the  beating  are  almost  healed  up,  but  I  am  still  being  treated 
in  hospital  here  for  blood-poisoning  in  my  hand  resulting  from  the  beating 
with  brass-buckled  belts.  My  hand  is  in  a  very  critical  condition  (as  Dr. 
Costello  can  testify),  the  blood-poisoning  having  penetrated  as  far  as  my 
shoulder,  and  gives  me  intense  pain  at  times.  According  to  the  Doctor's 
opinion  my  arm  will  not  be  well  for  many  weeks  to  come. 

On  the  day  after  I  was  subjected  to  this  barbarous  treatment,  my  wife 
and  family  being  in  a  state  of  nervous  excitement  and  extreme  terror 
(wife  within  a  fortnight  of  child-birth),  as  result  of  occurrence,  found  it 
necessary  to  remove  to  a  friend's  house  some  45  miles  away,  where  they 
still  remain,  being  too  terrified  to  return. 

Why  I  have  been  subjected  to  such  brutal  treatment  by  those  members 
of  the  R.   I.   C.  Auxiliary  Force   I   can   assign  no   reason  whatever,  as   I 
have   never   actively  participated  in   politics  other  than   voting   at  election 
time,  my  attention  being  strictly  confined  to  Trades  Union  Principles. 
(Signed)     Thomas  Owens,  Railway  Porter, 

Gr.  Southern  &  Western  Railway. 

Stephen  Kane,t  Secretary  of  Tuam  Trades  Council,  Brutally  Beaten 
Mr.  Stephen  Kane  is  a  shop  assistant  in  Tuam,  where  he  has  been  for 
some  years.  On  the  night  of  September  20,  1920,  he  was  in  the  Hibernian 
Hall  when  a  party  of  Black-and-Tans  entered  and  ordered  "Hands  up," 
and  everyone  was  searched,  Mr.  Kane  among  the  number.  A  letter  was 
found  on  him  from  the  Trades  Council  in  Dublin  and  addressed  to  him 
as  the  local  secretary  for  Tuam.  It  contained  nothing  of  a  seditious  char- 
acter. He  was  taken  to  the  Police  Barracks,  which  are  quite  near,  and 
brought  before  two  Black-and-Tan  officers  and  the  District  Inspector  of 
Police,  and  asked  was  he  secretary  to  the  Trades  Council.  He  replied  that 
he  was.  He  was  also  asked  for  the  names  of  the  President  and  members 
of  the  Council.  He  replied  that  he  did  not  know  them.  He  was  kept  at 
the  Barracks  from  10  P.  M.  till  9  A.  M. 

About  2  A.  M.  an  officer  put  him  in  charge  of  three  Black-and-Tan  men 
with  rifles  and  bayonets  and  he  was  brought  to  the  door,  where  he  heard  an 
officer  say,  "Take  him  out  and  give  him  hell !"  They  walked  him  about  10 
yards,  when  one  of  the  men  suddenly  struck  him  a  vicious  blow  on  the  head, 
then  a  second  one,  also  on  the  head,  and  again  a  third  one  on  his  jaw,  which 
he  said  would  have  stretched  him  but  that  he  put  up  his  hand  and  some- 


1063 

what  saved  his  face.  (I  saw  today,  Nov.  1st,  that  his  finger  is  still  sore 
and  swollen  from  the  blow.)  Before  leaving  the  Barracks  he  was  made 
to  swear  and  sign  twice  that  he  would  resign  the  secretaryship  of  the 
Trades  Council.  He  was  then  brought  up  as  far  as  the  Square  and  made 
to  sit  on  the  seat  outside  the  Hotel  for  about  half  an  hour.  The  officer 
with  him  then  proceeded  to  conduct  him  home,  but  on  the  way  they  met 
another  officer  with  3  men  who  ordered  him  back  to  the  Barracks  again. 
A  lorry  stood  at  the  Hotel  door,  and  he  was  ordered  to  get  into  it,  and 
immediately  ordered  out  again — finally  to  the  Barracks,  where  he  was  left 
in  the  day  room  by  the  fire.  His  face  was  covered  with  blood  from  the 
blows,  but  he  was  not  given  any  means  of  bathing  it. 

At  9  A.  M.  he  was  told  to  go  home,  and  again  threatened  that  if  he  did 
not  resign  or  was  found  at  any  club  he  would  be  shot.  He  returned  home 
to  find  that  his  rooms  had  been  searched  and  the  minute-book  of  his  society 
and  a  book  of  rules  of  same,  also  some  private  letters,  had  been  taken  ; 
these  have  not  since  been  returned.  Among  his  private  correspondence 
was  a  letter  from  his  brother,  who  is  a  policeman  in  the  North  of  Ireland, 
in  which  he  stated  that  he  would  be  able  to  resign  in  November,  having 
completed  his  fifteen  years'  service,  and  that  he  was  very  glad  of  it,  as  he 
was  fed  up  with  the  life  he  was  leading. 

On  Sat.,  Oct.  23rd,  he  was  sent  for  to  the  Police  Barracks,  where  he 
was  interviewed  by  the  County  Inspector,  who  asked  him  some  questions. 
and  during  the  interview  was  writing  on  a  sheet  of  paper  in  front  of  him. 
He  read  the  statement  he  had  written  to  Mr.  Kane  and  also  gave  it  to  him 
to  read.  After  reading  it,  Mr.  Kane  said  he  did  not  consider  it  an  accu- 
rate statement  and  refused  to  sign  it.  "Oh  !"  said  the  C.  I.  to  a  police 
sergeant  who  was  present,  "he  refuses  to  sign  it."  He  was  (lien  told  he 
might  go  and  that  he  might  continue  his  secretaryship. 

Note. — The  following  paragraph  was  taken  from  the  Irish  Independent 
of  Sat.,  Oct.  30,  1920,  and  in  view  of  the  foregoing  facts,  which  are  quite 
accurate,  it  throws  some  light  on  the  manner  in  which  inquiries  are  con- 
ducted on  behalf   of  the   Government: 

"Treatment  of  Mr.  S.  Kane,  Tuam 
"Questioned  by  Mr.  F.  Roberts  as  to  the  treatment  by  the  police  of 
Mr.  S.  Kane,  Tuam.  Sir  H.  Greenwood  said  he  was  arrested  on  Sep- 
tember 20  in  a  building  in  which  seditious  documents  were  found. 
He  was  detained  in  the  barracks  for  some  hours  pending  inquiry.  He 
was  not  asked  to  resign  membership  of  the  I.  T.  and  G.  W.  U..  and 
the  statements  that  he  was  kept  in  the  street,  beaten  to  the  ground 
with  rifle  butts,  and   frequently  assaulted,  are  entirely  untrue." 

c 

WANTON  FIRING  AT  PEOPLE  ON  HIGHWAY 

On  Friday,  Oct.  8th,  we,  John  Connor,  Carrarea.  and  Michael  Kenny, 
Bcaugh,  being  working  on  the  Tuam-Dunmore  road  at  Gallagh.  were  sit- 
ting on  the  wall  taking  our  dinners  when  four  lorries  of  uniformed  men 
(uniform  black)  came  along.  When  about  300  yds.  from  us  they  fired  two 
shots.  Then  I,  John  Connor,  turned  and  lay  flat  on  the  ground,  and  I. 
Michael  Kenny,  stood  up  and  put  up  my  hands.  A  little  girl — a  daughter 
of  Michael  Kenny's — standing  beside  us  also  put  up  her  hands.  While 
lying  on  the  ground  I,  John  Connor,  got  a  bullet— the  third  shot— in  the 
hip.  They  fired  altogether  about  eight  or  nine  shots.  When  passing  us 
out,  the  men  in  the  lorries  shouted  at  us  to  put  our  hands  up  higher,  and 
one  of  them  said,  "There  is  one  wounded  ;  let  him  have  another."  They 
indulged  in  cursing  and  shouting  while  passing  us  out. 

(Signed)     John   Connor. 

Michael   Kenny. 

Witness  :   Rev.  Francis  C.  Lynch,  C  C,   Tuam. 


1064 

EXHIBIT  IV 

OFFICIAL  FALSEHOOD  TO   CONCEAL   MURDER: 

THE  CASE  OF  CONNOR  CLUNE 

Note. — Cases  have  repeatedly  come  before  the  Commission  where  the 
justification  alleged  by  the  Crown  forces  for  shooting  Irish  civilians  has 
been  their  connection  with  the  "murder  gang" — the  Irish  Republican  Army, 
— and  their  attempts  to  escape  after  they  have  been  made  prisoner.  Affi- 
davits proving  the  falsity  of  the  official  report  in  two  such  cases  are  in- 
cluded in  the  testimony  (pp.  767-9,  772-3;  see  also  p.  931).  The  complete 
evidence  in  the  Connor  Clune  case  is  presented  here,  because  (1)  the  relia- 
bility, social  standing,  and  integrity  of  the  relator,  Mr.  Edward  Lysaght, 
are  not  open  to  question;  (2)  Mr.  Lysaght's  statement  of  facts  directly 
convicts  the  British  Government  in  Ireland  of  untruthfulness  in  attempting 
to  justify  this  murder;  (3)  the  false  official  version  was  published  in  the 
press  before  even  the  military  inquiry  had  reported  its  findings ;  and  (4) 
Mr.  Lysaght  was  punished  for  giving  truthful  evidence  contrary  to  the 
official  report  by  being  imprisoned  (see  testimony,  p.  1046),  by  the  raiding 
and  robbery  of  his  home,  and  by  the  destruction  of  the  cooperative  enter- 
prise of  which  he  was  the  manager. 

A 
THE  OFFICIAL  VERSION 

(From  the  London  Times,  24  November,  1920) 
SINN  FEIN  LEADERS  KILLED 


DESPERATE  FIGHT  IN  GUARD  ROOM 


MURDER  GANG  MEMBERS 
(From  Our  Own  Correspondent) 

Dublin,  November  23. 

A  graphic  story  of  the  shooting  of  three  prisoners  during  an  at- 
tempt to  escape  from  military  custody  is  published  today  in  an  official 
report  issued  from  Dublin  Castle.  The  men  were  well-known  mem- 
bers of  the  Irish  Republic  organization,  and  their  arrests  were  re- 
garded as  of  some  importance. 

They  were  taken  in  Dublin  on  Saturday  night.  Two  of  them  were 
together  in  the  same  bed  and  among  other  articles  found  in  the  room 
were  two  complete  suits  of  the  uniform  of  a  British  colonel.  The 
third  man  was  captured  in  Vaughan's  Hotel,   Rutland-square. 

So  many  men  were  in  custody  in  the  various  places  of  detention  in 
the  city  that  these  three — Richard  McKee,  T.  C.  Clune,  and  Peter 
Clancy — were  taken  to  a  house  in  Exchange-court,  off  Dame-street, 
which  until  recently  was  used  as  the  headquarters  of  the  Detective 
Division  of  the  Metropolitan  Police.  The  Official  Report,  after  telling 
of  the  arrests,  describes  the  guard  room  in  which  they  were  confined 
in  Exchange-court,  with  a  guard  of  four  men.     It  says : 

The  three  prisoners  suddenly  rose  to  their  feet,  and  the  sentry 
turned  round  on  hearing  the  noise.  One  of  the  prisoners  had  a  Mills 
bomb  in  his  hand,  which  he  had  abstracted  from  a  box  of  bombs 
under  a  bed.  This  he  threw  at  the  sentry.  The  bomb  did  not  ex- 
plode because,  unknown  to  the  prisoner,  none  of  the  bombs  had  been 
detonated.  The  sentry  jumped  to  one  side,  and  the  prisoner,  throw- 
ing a  second  bomb,  dashed  behind  a  pile  of  mattresses  when  the  sentry 
fired. 

Another  of  the  prisoners  meanwhile  had  seized  a  rifle  and  fired  at 
the  other  members  of  the  guard.     Both  ducked  behind  the  table,  which 


1065 

was  upset,  and  the  shot  lodged  in  the  wall.  The  third  prisoner  lifted 
a  shovel  lying  near  the  fire  and  aimed  a  blow  at  the  men  who  were 
crouching  behind  the  overturned  table.  The  shovel  crashed  into  the 
wood,  but  missed  the  men. 

The  commander  of  the  guard,  hearing  firing,  at  this  moment  rushed 
into  the  room  and  fired.  This  sudden  diversion  enabled  both  his  com- 
panions to  rise  from  the  table,  and  as  they  fired  together  the  second 
and  third  prisoners  fell  simultaneously.  The  whole  affair  lasted  only 
a  few  seconds. 

It  is  presumed  that  the  prisoners,  who  had  seen  all  the  movements 
of  the  garrison  since  Saturday  night,  had  observed  that  at  11  o'clock 
more  of  the  men  were  out  on  duty  and  that  they  were  practically  alone 
in  the  building  with  the  guard  of  twelve  men. 

T.  C.  Clune  was  a  lieutenant  in  the  1st  Battalion,  Clare  Brigade, 
I.  R.  A.  He  was  arrested  about  10  :30  on  Saturday,  November  20,  at 
Vaughan's  Hotel,  Dublin.  When  the  officers  arrived  there  he  tried  to 
get  from  the  lounge  to  another  room,  but  was  held  up.  He  had  been 
staying  at  the  hotel  for  a  number  of  days,  but  had  not  registered. 
He  asserted  that  he  had  trusted  an  employee  of  the  hotel  to  book  for 
him,  but  on  his  being  confronted  with  this  individual  his  statement 
was  denied.  He  had  no  luggage.  He  was  unable  to  give  a  satisfactory 
account  of  his  movements,  and  a  letter  was  found  on  him  connecting 
him  with  a  number  of  persons  in  custody  and  others  who  are  now 
evading  arrest.  His  pocket-book  contained  some  information  as  to 
his  associates,  as  well  as  a  number  of  names,  among  which  are  those 
of  Michael  Collins,  Sean  Tracey,  and  other  lesser-known  members  of 
the  I.  R.  A.  There  were  also  some  notes  on  the  procuring  of  pass- 
ports. 

Reports  from  the  country  this  morning  told  of  searches  of  public 
offices  all  over  Ireland,  the  seizure  of  books  and  documents,  and  of 
numerous  arrests.  Again  tonight  reports  from  the  provinces  tell  of 
numerous  arrests  made  during  the  day,  and  altogether  the  number  of 
people  taken  into  custody  in  Dublin  and  the  country  during  the  past 
few  days  must  run  into  hundreds. 

B 
THE  FACTS  ABOUT  CONNOR  CLUNE 

As  Given  by  Mr.  Edward  Lysaght,  Rahecn,  Tuamgrancy,  County  Clare 
Connor  Clune  was  managing  clerk  of  Raheen  Rural  Industries,  of  which 
Mr.  Lysaght  is  managing  partner.  He  had  been  in  this  firm's  employ  for 
seven  years.  Raheen  Rural  Industries  is  a  firm  of  farmers,  nurserymen, 
woodworkers  and  contractors,  employing  about  90  men. 

Connor  Clune  has  been  known  to  Mr.  Lysaght  for  the  last  seven  years. 
Mr.  Lysaght  had  always  a  high  opinion  of  his  character,  and  of  late,  since 
Clune  had  been  head  clerk,  had  been  on  terms  of  intimate  friendship  with 
him,  as  they  were  both  deeply  interested  in  the  economic  development  of 
Raheen  and  of  the  country  in  general.  For  the  last  six  months  Mr.  Ly- 
saght had  walked  with  Clune  practically  every  evening,  and  had  been  away 
with  him  for  holidays,  etc.  They  had,  as  everyone  does  in  Ireland,  dis- 
cussed politics  to  a  great  extent ;  neither  of  them  belonged  to  any  political 
organization ;  both  of  them  were  opposed  to  the  use  of  physical  force ;  they 
were  both  immensely  interested  in  economic  development,  and  were  both 
Irish  speakers,  belonging  to  an  Irish  speaking  society  called  "Fainne," 
which  is  an  entirely  non-political  society,  besides  being  very  small  and 
little  known,  and  has  never  been  interfered  with  in  any  way  by  the  Gov- 
ernment. 

Mr.  Lysaght  is  perfectly  convinced  that  Air.  Clune  was  not  and  never 
had  been  a  lieutenant  of  the  Irish  Republican  Army;  his  political  doc- 
trines would  have  been  against  this.  Mr.  Clune  was  never,  moreover,  "on 
the  run."  nor  were  his  movements  ever  anything  but  perfectly  open.  For 
instance,  he  never  slept  away  from  home  except  when  occasionally  sent  tq 


1066 


Dublin  or  elsewhere  on  his  firm's  business.  All  this  can  be  vouched  for 
by  Dennis  MacMabon,  of  Raheen,  County  Clare,  another  chief  employee 
of  Raheen  Rural   Industries. 

The  annual  audit  of  a  section  of  the  Raheen  Rural  Industries  was  due 
on  Monday.  November  22.  At  the  last  moment  Mr.  Lysaght  decided  that 
he  would  send  Clune  to  Dublin  for  this  audit  instead  of  the  man  who 
usually  did  it,  and  who  was  needed  at  home.  As  Mr.  Lysaght  was  him- 
self going  to  Dublin  by  car  on  Friday,  November  19,  and  as  the  railway 
trouble  had  rendered  the  trains  most  uncertain,  Mr.  Lysaght  decided  to 
take  Clune  with  him  by  car  on  Friday,  November  19,  the  appointment  with 
the  auditor  for  the  audit  of  the  books  having  been  fixed  for  the  follow- 
ing Monday  (22d).  The  journey  to  Dublin  was  therefore  made  on  Fri- 
day, by  car,  and  the  occupants  of  the  were  Mr.  Lysaght,  Mr.  Clune,  and 
an  employee  of  the  works,  named  Con  Barrett,  who  was  to  learn  to  drive 
the  car.  They  reached  Dublin  about  3  p.  m.  Mr.  Lysaght  spent  the  night 
at  his  Dublin  flat,  and  Mr.  Clune  at  the  lodgings  he  was  accustomed  to 
stay  at  when  in  Dublin  at  54,  Haddington  Road,  kept  by  Miss  Lynam. 

On  Saturday  morning  Mr.  Lysaght  again  spent  a  considerable  time  with 
Clune,  and  the  latter  told  him  that  he  had  been  to  see  the  auditor  and  had 
confirmed  the  appointment  for  the  audit  of  the  books  on  Monday.  The 
auditor  was  the  Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Audit  Department  at 
Plunkett  House,  the  name  of  the  auditor  either  Swayne  or  Cassidy,  and 
the  section  of  the  business  of  which  the  books  were  to  be  audited  was  the 
Raheen  Co-operative  Society.  Mr.  Lysaght  lunched  with  Mr.  Clune  at 
Mitchell's  shop  in  Grafton  Street,  Dublin,  went  for  a  walk  with  him  and 
another  friend  after  lunch,  and  parted  from  Clune  about  3  p.  m.  Clune 
had  asked  him  to  spend  the  evening  with  him  and  go  to  a  theater,  but 
owing  to  another  engagement  Mr.  Lysaght  was  unable  to  do  this.  He 
heard  nothing  more  of  Clune  till  he  heard  a  rumor  of  his  arrest  on  Mon- 
day morning.  Mr.  Lysaght  spent  from  early  on  Monday  morning  until 
11  a.  m.  on  Tuesday  trying  to  find  out  his  whereabouts,  but  could  obtain 
no  information  from  official  sources.  Plunkett  House  also  made  every 
possible  attempt  to  get  some  information  from  the  authorities,  but  without 
success.  On  Tuesday  morning  Mr.  Lysaght  went  in  despair  to  a  Dublin 
solicitor  to  see  what  could  be  done ;  and  while  he  was  there,  the  solicitor's 
clerk  rushed  in  with  the  news  that  the  three  prisoners  in  Dublin  Castle, 
including  Clune,  had  been  shot;  this  had  just  come  out  in  the  stop  press 
edition  of  the  press.  Mr.  Lysaght  and  his  solicitor  went  instantly  to  Dub- 
lin Castle  and  asked  to  see  the  body.  They  were  sent  to  the  George  V 
Hospital,  where  the  body  had  been  taken,  and  spent  some  hours  there, 
without  being  allowed  to  see  the  body.  Finally  the  Castle  was  rung  up  by 
the  Chief  Medical  Officer  and  the  reply  came  that  Mr.  Lysaght  was  not  to 
be  permitted  to  see  the  body.  Eventually  the  Medical  Officer  made  the 
identity  quite  certain  by  a  written  description  of  the  clothes.  Mr.  Lysaght 
then  left  with  his  solicitor,  leaving  his  address  and  saying  that  he  would 
give  evidence  at  any  inquiry  if  wanted. 

On  reaching  home  on  Tuesday  after  lunch  Mr.  Lysaght  found  a  tele- 
phone message  awaiting  him,  summoning  him  to  give  evidence  at  a  mili- 
tary inquiry.  He  went  instantly  to  this  inquiry,  and  found  that  it  was  a 
secret  military  inquiry,  consisting  of  a  President,  Captain  Ansted,  who  Mr. 
Lysaght  is  under  the  impression  belonged  to  the  Wiltshires,  and  two  junior 
officers  (these  two  could  probably  be  identified,  as  they  also  signed  the 
burial  order  and  the  accompanying  warning  as  to  funeral  processions). 
The  witnesses  were  only  allowed  to  come  one  at  a  time  into  the  court 
(though  when  Mr.  Lysaght  had  finished  giving  his  evidence  his  solicitor 
was  permitted  to  come  in  and  read  it  before  Mr.  Lysaght  signed  it).  The 
only  questions  asked  of  Mr.  Lysaght  at  this  secret  inquiry  were  questions 
of  identification.  Mr.  Lysaght  insisted,  however,  on  making  a  statement  as 
to  the  character  of  Clune,  and  as  to  his  traveling  up  from  County  Clare  on 
the  previous  day.  At  that  time  he  had  not  seen  the  Dublin  Castle  statement 
as  to  the  affair,  and  did  not  therefore  know  that  allegations  had  been  made 
as  to  Clunes'  pocketbook,  etc. 


1067 

Within  ten  minutes  of  coming  out  of  the  secret  inquiry,  Mr.  Lysaght 
bought  an  afternoon  paper,  and  found  printed  in  it  the  Dublin  Castle  offi- 
cial report  of  the  shooting  of  the  prisoners — which  therefore  must  have 
been  issued  before  the  secret  inquiry  reported.  In  this  Dublin  Castle  re- 
port he  first  saw  statements  as  to  the  incriminating  pocketbook,  letter,  etc. 

The  next  day,  Wednesday,  November  24,  Mr.  Lysaght  was  allowed  to 
remove  the  body.  He  had  to  act  altogether  alone  in  this  matter,  as  Clare 
is  almost  completely  cut  off  from  Dublin,  owing  to  the  railway  trouble. 
On  the  25th  he  received  the  personal  effects,  with  the  exception  of  a  pocket- 
book  and  tie-pin  (the  latter  is  the  pin  worn  by  members  of  the  Irish- 
speaking  Society  to  which  Clune  belonged).  In  signing  for  the  receipt  of 
the  effects,  Mr.  Lysaght  mentioned  that  they  were  missing,  and  sent  a 
formal  demand  for  them  to  the  Garrison  Adjutant,  Dublin  District.  (Not 
yet  received.) 

Dublin   Castle   Statement  False 

Mr.  Lysaght  particularly  emphasied  the  totally  incorrect  information 
given  in  the  Dublin  Castle  statement.  He  is  perfectly  convinced,  for  the 
reasons  given  above,  that  Clune  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  I.  R.  A. ;  his 
name  was  Connor  Clune,  and  not  T.  C.  Clune,  as  stated  by  Dublin  Castle ; 
he  had  only  arrived  in  Dublin  the  previous  day,  and  was  not  staying  at 
Yaughan's  Hotel.  Mr.  Lysaght  is  convinced  that  the  pocketbook  found 
upon  Clune  was  the  usual  note-book  carried  by  himself,  Clune,  and  the 
other  officials  of  the  Raheen  Rural  Industries.  It  contained  odd  notes ;  the 
fact  that  it  contained  the  names  Collins  and  Tracey  is  not  to  be  wondered 
at,  as  the  Raheen  Rural  Industries  had  an  employee  called  Tracey  who 
had  applied  for  a  sick-ticket,  and  it  was  therefore  likely  that  he  should  be 
mentioned  in  the  note-book.  As  regards  the  name  of  Collins,  Mr.  Lysaght 
had  an  appointment  with  a  solicitor  of  that  name  on  the  day  before  Clune 
was  arrested,  and  Clune  may  well  have  made  a  note  of  this  in  his  book; 
or  the  name  "Mullins,"  an  employee  of  the  firm,  may  have  been  mistaken 
for  M.  Collins.  Re.  the  passport  notes  mentioned  in  the  Dublin  Castle  Re- 
port, Mr.  Lysaght  had  since  May,  1918,  procured  passports  for  his  mother, 
wife,  and  for  his  children's  governess,  and  the  correspondence  relating  to 
these  had  passed  through  the  Raheen  office,  so  that  it  is  very  probable  that 
Clune  had  jotted  down  notes  in  his  book  about  obtaining  them.  With  re- 
gard to  the  letter  stated  to  have  been  found  on  Clune,  Mr.  Lysaght,  not 
having  seen  the  letter,  cannot  say  what  it  was,  but  is  convinced  that  it 
could  be  easily  explained  by  Clune's  friends. 

c 

STATEMENT   BY   MRS.   KATHERINE   LYSAGHT   RE- 
GARDING RAID  AND  ROBBERY  OF  HOME  AND 
DESTRUCTION  OF  COOPERATIVE  SOCIETY 

On  Friday,  November  26,  the  R.  I.  C.  Auxiliary  Force  made  a  raid  on 
Raheen  while  all  the  members  of  the  office  staff  and  most  of  the  workmen 
were  at  the  funeral  of  Connor  Clune.  At  the  Manor  House  they  broke 
open  the  doors  of  the  business  offices  of  the  Raheen  Rural  Industries  and 
searched  for  papers;  they  forced  locks  of  presses,  and  threw  such  corre- 
spondence, bills,  ledgers,  etc.,  as  they  did  not  confiscate  over  the  floors  of 
both  rooms.  They  entered  the  large  room  used  as  a  store  for  the  goods 
of  the  Raheen  Workers'  Cooperative  Society,  and  carried  away  practically 
all  groceries,  jam,  bacon,  boots,  etc.,  and  most  of  the  remainder  they  spoilt 
by  spilling  contents  of  parcels  and  tins  :  e.  g.,  the  only  things  intact  were 
bags  of  flour  too  heavy  to  remove.  The  whole  store  was  ransacked  and 
left  in  confusion.  While  they  were  carrying  away  the  loot  they  fastened 
four  men  who  had  remained  at  Raheen  and  not  gone  to  the  funeral  into 
the  garage.  At  the  private  residence  they  made  a  complete  search  and 
carried  away  papers,  two  boxes  of  cigars,  boxes  of  toilet  soap,  and  a  cer- 
tain amount  of  clothing. 


1068 

On  the  following  afternoon  a  large  party  of  this  force  returned.  Those 
who  went  to  the  Manor  House,  though  offered  keys,  continued  the  de- 
struction of  doors  by  breaking  panels  and  forcing  an  entrance,  and  com- 
pleted the  search  they  had  begun  on  the  previous  day.  In  addition  to  the 
goods  taken  from  the  Cooperative  Store,  three  bicycles,  a  typewriter,  the 
leather  post-bag,  files  of  telegrams,  bills  and  receipts  and  business  papers ; 
also  private  correspondence,  much  of  it  unopened,  awaiting  Mr.  S.  R. 
Lysaght's  return,  were  carried  away,  and  the  remainder  strewn  about  the 
floors. 

The  private  residence,  which  is  in  charge  of  a  caretaker  during  the  ab- 
sence of  the  family,  was  entered,  and  the  woman  who  was  engaged  in  set- 
ting the  house  in  order  after  the  previous  day's  raid  was  ordered  "Hands 
up."  She  and  a  lady  who  had  been  a  nursing  sister  in  France  for  several 
years  during  the  war  were  in  the  house  during  the  whole  time  the  Aux- 
iliaries searched  and  carried  away  a  great  quantity  of  clothing,  etc. 

Mr.  S.  R.  Lysaght,  who  is  away  in  Australia,  had  left  his  private  deed 
box  locked.  This  was  burst  open  and  manuscripts  scattered  about.  All 
his  shooting  suits  and  thick  cloth  suits  were  taken — twelve  in  all — also  sev- 
eral suits  of  E.  Lysaght's,  four  overcoats,  a  large  quantity  of  socks  and 
stockings ;  two  large  presses  of  underclothing  were  completely  emptied  and 
the  contents  taken.  Every  available  bag  and  valise  in  the  house  was  taken 
to  carry  away  loot,  in  addition  to  the  bags  brought  by  the  raiders.  A  pic- 
ture was  cut  out  of  the  frame  and  a  valuable  Japanese  bowl  and  even 
Japanese  table  centers  taken.  They  spent  some  time  in  examining  every 
box  and  drawer  in  the  room  occupied  by  myself,  and  took  underclothing, 
an  evening  dress-bodice,  a  wrist  watch  of  my  daughter-in-law's,  and  various 
other  things.  What  was  not  taken  was  left  in  utter  confusion  and  much 
of  it  trampled  underfoot. 

A  roll  top  desk  was  forced  open  and  most  of  the  contents  confiscated. 
While  this  was  being  done  a  bottle  of  brandy  unopened  and  a  half  bottle 
were  found.  The  half  bottle  was  drunk  and  the  lady  who  was  standing  by 
was  ordered  to  get  a  corkscrew  to  open  the  other,  but  she  refused,  and 
took  the  bottle  of  brandy  and  would  not  give  it  un. 

I  do  not  yet  know  the  complete  extent  of  the  depredation.  Things  of 
various  kinds  were  picked  up  outside,  left  by  the  raiders  :  e.  g..  six  spoons 
and  a  photograph  in  a  frame  under  a  tree  close  to  the  house ;  a  hat  here 
and  a  shirt  there,  and  so  on.  My  daughter-in-law  being  in  France,  I  am 
unable  to  give  a  detailed  list  of  her  losses,  but  these  are  certainly  con- 
siderable, as  her  presses  in  which  she  left  a  good  deal  of  clothing  were 
rifled.  A  sovereign  and  two  half-sovereigns,  christening  presents  to  my 
little  grandson,  were  taken  and  a  receipt  given  for  them. 

Before  the  house  was  left  by  the  family  everything  had  been  put  in 
order,  and  keys  given  to  the  caretaker  so  that  if  Crown  forces  wished  to 
search  again  they  could  do  so  without  causing  any  disturbance.  The  house 
had  already  been  twice  searched  by  the  military  in  October,  but  in  a  very 
different  manner  from  the  recent  raids. 

(Signed)     Katherine  Lysaght. 
(Mrs.  S.  R.  Lysaght.) 


1069 

SUBJECT  INDEX 

"or  index  of  witnesses,  see  pp.  XII-XIV. 

"he  suffix  n  following  page  number  refers  to  footnote. 


Abbeyfeale  Page 

Abbeyfeale 665-66.    673,   679 

murders  in    668 

people    terrorized 666 

mark  of  respect   for  dead   forbidden 681-82 

town   hall   burned 666 

sacked    and    looted 666 

Abercorn,    Duke    of 143 

Aberdeen.   Countess  of 461 

Act  of  Union    225-27,  940 

destroys    Irish    industries 229-30 

Ireland's  right  to  break 22S-26 

opposed  by   Grattan 236 

passed   by    fraud    and    perjury 233-35 

Scotland  and  Wales  contented  with  .  506,  607,  951 

suppressed    Irish    Parliament 226-27 

tax   exploitation   since 488-90,    945-5-? 

violated    by    England.  . 235-36 

uprising  provoked  to  justify 232 

Adamson,    Hon.    W 19.    1026 

Adare 383.    407,  41? 

Addams.    Jane,    member    of    the    Commission.,     vii 

Admiralty    marines    disperse    raiders 687 

Agents   provocateurs 594-    623,   887 

Aghada,   American   property   stolen 249 

Agriculture 7,    903,  938 

arterial     drainage 466 

Compulsory     Tillage     Act 469-70 

Congested     Districts     Board 494-97 

cooperative  agricultural  societies 38,  991 

cooperative    development   of   land 494.    960 

destruction   of.      See   Burning   of   farms   and 
hayricks. 

development  of 619 

displaced    by    grazing 936-38 

decreased   population 497,-99,   936.   938-39 

impoverishes    Ireland 936-7 

farmers,    discrimination    against 444 

fertility  of  soil 459-    481.   495.    JooS 

grant    for 955 

inquiry  into  condition  of 244 

Ireland    limited    to 467 

Irish  Agricultural  Organization  Society....  152, 
4444-45,  584.  619,  984-85.  991.  994.  995. 
996,    998,    1066. 

Land  Acts,  effect  of 238-41,  453-54,  495-96, 

590,  944,    1008. 

Minister    of 972 

poverty  of  peasants 453-54.   495"97 

prosperity    of 239,    943'44 

destroyed    by    England.  ..  580-81,     583-84.     590. 
698,    936-37. 

limited 454,    458 

students    of 169 

undivided  estates. 494-97.  497-99.   1008.   1010,  1014 
See   also   Farmers  and   Land. 


Albert,   Father,  lerrorized  and   imprisoned.  .  1037-38 
Alien   landlordism ..  .238-39,   240-41,   443,    485,   498, 
937-38,   960-61.    1009. 
See  also  Land  Acts. 

Alsace-Lorraine 140,    146 

Ambushes: 

alleged   to   justify   reprisals 586,    828,  995 

by  police 66,    1 05 1 

creameries   never    used    as 995-96 

neighboring  houses  ordered  destroyed. 804-5.   '059 
of  police  and  soldiers.  .  .  .  149,  256,  409,   521,   605, 
666,  778,   838,  882,    1058. 

occur    in    country 804 

reason   for 592.   805-7 

regarded    as    act     of    war .  .256.-57,     372,     595, 
621-22,  805-6. 
America    197 


American    Ambassador  Page 

disturbed  by  conditions  in  Ireland 4,   577 

England   borrowing   from 213,    240 

Gaelic   League  exhibit 1032 

help   and   sympathy   appreciated ....  183,   301,   306 

barriers   "to 251 

expected    712,  84S 

Ireland's    right    to 851 

needed 231,    338,    340,    935 

practical    reasons    for 1052 

Irishmen   fight    for 214 

justice   and   fair   play    asked 336-7,    1052 

moral   conscience   of ix,   x,    1052 

recognition   of   Republic   requested 302,  971 

relief    ship    from    Ireland 238,   338 

slur   upon 505 

suppositous   forced    union   with    England....    235 

war   aims ix,    1052 

failed  to  achieve 214-15 

sincerity    of 850-51 

American    Ambassador,    London .  ..536-37 

Association  for  Recognition  of  the  Irish  Re- 
public         172 

citizens,     assaulted     and     beaten ....  790,     874-77, 
879.  8S5.  886.  889-90. 

blacklisted     368 

citizens  ignored 55,   679,   872,   875,   890 

insulted     691-92,   872 

property    confiscated 56-57 

searched 55-57,   679,   681,   680 

stolen     249 

robbed 877,    888,    890 

searched 71,  72,  679,  68t,  682,  705, 

711-12,  871-73,   887.  891. 

Civil    War 225-26 

Commission   for   Relief  in    Belgium 611 

Commission  on  Conditions  in  Ireland. vi-viii,    ix-x 

confronts    crisis 488 

effect    on    English    opinion x,    576-77 

first-hand     evidence     wanted 341-42 

503-5,  931-32. 

hearings   of ix,    5 

impartial 4,    5-    183,   505 

mission  of  inquiry  to  England  and  Ireland        5 

motive   and   purpose ix-x.    4 

origin     3 

peace   promoted x,   336 

personnel     vi 

protests   attempted   murder   of  witness.  ...  64411 
obstruction    of    witnesses    by    American 

consul    537 

Report   of x,    5" 

Secretariat    • viii 

service  to   humanity  appreciated 183,   340 

specific  evidence   wanted 492,   5°3-4 

to   ascertain    facts   about   Ireland 5 

witnesses.      See    Witnesses. 

Commission   on   Irish    Independence 6,7 

consul,  hinders  coming  of  witnesses.  .  534~37.  998 
protection    proffered   Americans    abroad.  ..  686, 

877. 
secures  no  redress   for  insult  to   flag.  .  .  .6S5-S6 

foi    outrage    on    American 876-77 

consul-general     535,   536 

flag,  375;  insulted  by  raiders 685-86,   687 

fleet    965 

gold    213 

imperialists   in   Philippines 445 

insane  asylums,  Irish  in 454 

journalists     175 

meat     trust 985-86,   988 

mediation    ethical   and    practical 1051-52 

news,    distortion    of 578 

press,    fed    English-censored    news 784-85 

gives  scant  publicity  to  Irish  atrocities.  .  785-86 


1070 


Americans  Page 

Red   Cross.      See  Red   Cross,   American. 

Revolutionary    War 334 

Ireland  refuses  to  help  crush 227 

parallel  to  Ireland's  fight 225-26,   850-51 

sailors   in   Cork,    admired   by    people 652-53 

beaten  by   Black-and-Tans    874-77,   879, 

885,   886,   8S9-90. 

held  up  and  robbed 871-73,   877,   887,   888 

passports    taken    from 877,   888 

searched   by   British   Government 968 

unable   to   get   redress 876-77 

ships,   captain   subjected   to   indignities 890 

crews    searched 968 

debarred   from  Cork   harbor 968-69 

trade   with    Ireland 168,   204,   653, 

967,   968—69,   971. 

Britain   interferes   with 619-20,    967-71 

Irish   consular   service 935,    966-67 

passenger  service   to   Cork   prohibited.  .  .968-69 

U.   S.   Mail   Steamship  Co.   service 619, 

963,   966,   969. 

Women's    International    League 531 

Americans,    anti-Irish 336,    338,  340 

hatred   of t 686,   872,   875 

"Anarchy,    Grammar    of" 205,  229 

and    arson    supplant    justice 35,   624 

and   terrorism    British    policy 617-18,    624 

Ancient  Order  of  Hibernians 208 

Anderson,  R.,  Protestant,  condemns  murder  of 

priest    716 

Anderson,    R.   A.,   publicist    996,   99S 

Anglo-American     alliance 183 

Antrim,    County .  .475,  760 

Apologist    deliberately   insincere 175 

Arbitration    courts.      See    Courts. 

Archangel    176 

Ardiprior,   shooting  of  Patrick   Noonan 77i~73 

Arklow,  police  bomb  and  wreck 823 

Armagh,    County 699,   760 

Armenia    140 

Arms  and  ammunition: 

captured  from  Crown  forces.  .  .  .365,  650,  687-88, 
794-95,   806-7,   907-8. 

imported   from   Germany 144,    145,    175,   204, 

206-7,   541.   607,   648,  651. 

penalty    for   possessing 80,    91,    352n, 

592,   648n,  866,  934. 

pretense    alleged    for    outrages 994-96 

raids  for   83,   154,   592,  632,  636,  690-91, 

693,   701-2,    1037,    1054,    1055. 

Arnold,    Matthew 1 043 

Arrest,   absence   of  security   from 720,   740 

alleged    attempt   to    escape    from,    excuse    for 

murder 61,    89,    160,    373,    74,    392, 

688-89,   766-67,   768-69,   772-73,   811,   813, 
1042,    1045,    1064-67. 

for   acts   previously   legal ' 68 

number  of 600,  815,   1053-55,   1060 

of  public  officials 20-21,  24,  16m,  212,  218, 

268-69,  283,  306,  356,  469-71,  483-84,  597, 
720-21,    734-3S,    736,    755,    1055. 

daily    danger    cf 720-21 

resignations    ready    in    case    of 743 

of  women 218-19,  327,  645-46,  744,   1058 

political 469,   648,   744-46,   756,   883,  906 

wholesale 143,   212,   218,   222,   471 

473-74.    542,    543.    705,    720-21,    815,    899. 
1027,    1039,    1053,    1054,    1055,    1056,    1060, 
1065. 
Arson.     See  Burnings. 

Arterial    drainage 465-66 

Ashe,   Thomas,    dies   in    prison 470 

Askeaton,    police    attack   cooperators 986-87 

Asquith,   Hon.   Herbert    H 206,    210,   468, 

601,   839,   971,    1055. 

duplicity    of 219-20 

favors    dominion    home    rule 540,    573 

Athlone 472-73,    596,    598 

Atrocities.     See  Beating  and  Flogging,  British 
atrocities.     Burnings.     Civilians,     atrocities 
on,  Looting,  Murders,   Torture,   Terrorism, 
etc. 
Attacks  on  Barracks.     See  Barracks. 


Barracks  Page 

Auctions,    permits   denied    Republicans 388 

Augustine,    Father 271 

Australia    139,   609 

Austria 140,   454,    1055 

Automobiles,   confiscated 583,    679-80 

Ford  factory,  Cork 655,   989 

licenses    denied    Republicans 583 

restrictions  on  use 71,  340,  679,   1025 

Auxiliary    Corps 166,    622,    733 

ambushed    838 

civilian  dress  of 42 

disliked   by    old    Constabulary 166 

duties   of 592,  681 

forbid   mark   of  respect    for    Irish    dead.  .  .681-82 

help  to  burn   Cork 838 

incite     people 837,   838 

killings     by 166,   813 

pay    of 166,   592 

raids  by.. 42,  49,   166,  592,  622,  681,  813,  1067-68 
recruited    from    ex-army    officers 42,   733 

B 

Babies,    black    bread    and    no    milk    for 405-6 

searched    405 

Bachelor's    Walk    massacre 145,    207,  650 

Bagenal,  Sir  Henry 198 

Balbriggan 92//,   141,  164,  584 

Black-and-Tans    in ioi//,   137 

barracks   in 95-96 

Burke,   District  Inspector,  shot 97-98 

coming  of   Black-and-Tans   to 9799,    101-102 

hosiery  factory  burned ...  .92,   161,  254,   623,   987 

no    inquiry    held 114 

population    of 96 

sequel   to 151 

shot  up  and  sacked 92,   97-102,   824,    1058 

Balfour,    Sir    Arthur 151 

Ballagh,    partially    sacked    by    police 824 

Ballaghadereen   sacked   by   police 824 

Ballina   shot   up   by   police 824 

Ballinagh,    captured    police    released    uninjured   794 

Ballinamore   shot    up   by   police 825 

Ballingeary 272,    276-77 

Ballitore,    Quaker    school 502 

Ballyeagan    76 

Ballyfinane    456 

Ballycastle    475 

Ballyhar    456 

Ballylooby    378,    390,  398 

Ballymacelligott,    ambush    falsely   alleged 995 

creamery    burned 995 

murders    at 456 

Ballyporeen     397,   422 

Baltic  ports,   Irish  trade  with 967 

Ballyvourney,    murders    at 812 

Bandon     199,   270 

ambush  at 256 

Banks,   controlled   by    England 443 

cooperative 444"45-   448,   944,   959 

discriminate  against   Irish  merchants 444 

drain   deposits   to    England 957-58 

Irish  Land 167,  619,  997 

organization    and   operation 959-60,    972,   997 

robbed    by    English    soldiers 491-92,  493 

Bann    River 466 

Banteer,    cooperative    creamery    destroyed 993 

Bantry   125 

devastation   in 126 

hunch-back    murdered    in 125 

partially     sacked 823 

shot    up 8 1 1  - 1 2,   824 

workhouse   commandeered    for   barracks 126 

Barbour,    Howard 959 

Sir   David 489 

Barlow,    John    Henry '. 518,    519,   525 

report  on   Irish   conditions 519-23 

Barmaid  kicked  to  death 248-49 

Harracks     129,   351 

attacks    on 33,    36,    44,    63,    353,    373,    397- 

618,   782.   794-95.   807,   906-7,    1042. 

an  act  of  war 90,  256-57,  273,  595 

falsely   alleged  to  justify   murder 33,   931 

to  get   arms 90,   807,   907-8 


1071 


Barry  Page 

burned 6j,  353,  994,   1015,   1057 

captured 44,    650,    794-95,    807-8 

police  released   uninjured 793-96,    907 

bad  living  conditions  in 59-: 

drinking  and  brawls  in 65,    135,  400-1 

government   bar   keeps   men    sodden 416-17, 

426,  566,  670-71. 

established    throughout    Ireland 41 

evacuated    165 

fortified 11,    424,    908 

hospital    commandeered    for 41,    126 

houses  commandeered.  .  .62,  66,  72,  78,   148,   1057 

in    Balbriggan 95 

in    Limerick    City 63 

town   hall  commandeered   for 39.   41 

Barry,    Kevin,  tortured   and  executed 789-90 

Barton,  General  Robert ......  132,   159.  430-31,  460 

Bayoneting   of    religious    pictures 1  10 

of  Sinn  Feiners  ordered 390-9S 

of  old   man   threatened 093 

prisoners  murdered  by 105-107,   766,    769 

Beamish,    Alderman 253,   641 

Bearhaven  harbor 965 

Beating    and    flogging   of    American    citizens...    790 
874-77,   S79,   885,   886,   889-90. 

of  children 507-9,    514-15 

of  civilians 107-9,   455~56,    51 4.   653-59,  664, 

670,    706-7,    780-83,    811,    863,    987,    994, 
1062-63. 

indiscriminate 653,   775,   790-91 

of   priests 368-69,    790,    S01-2,    1058 

of   prisoners 108,    779,    780-84,    1044.    10441; 

of    resigned    policemen 149,     262,     417-18, 

1058,   1061-62. 
Beattie,    Captain,    loses   life   at    Te'mpleinore .  . .      36 

Belfast 79,  92,   138.   175-76.  274.  275,  429,   549 

alleged    superiority .560-62,    940-41 

Bishop  of ' 470 

boy  soldiers 565-66 

burninng   and    looting    in 562-63 

Chamber  of  Commerce 158 

city    councillors    interviewed 550 

cobblestones   menace   peace   of 177,   571 

destruction    of    homes 562-63 

elections,   Unionists  lose  hold 225,   550,   555 

England   continues  money   grants   to 760 

housing  conditions.  ...  1 57,  440,   562-63,   565,   568 

ghetto    restriction .' 568-69 

industries ........  156-58,  443,   553,   561,  941 

compared    with    South    Ireland 940-41 

favored  by  government 581 

infant    mortality 561 

killings    in .....157,    175,    556 

labor,   conditions    of 440,   565 

difficult  position   of  leaders. 559-6o 

expulsion  of  Nationalist  workers.  .  157,    174-75, 
176,    180,   555-57.    1050. 

expelled   workers'    committee 500,    1049 

administration    of    relief    by 566-67,     569, 

571772. 
kept      divided      by      manufacturers.        See 
under   Religious   Issue,   below. 

meeting    prohibited 559-60 

organization .....157,    553-55 

social   legislation   for 952 

solvent    for    political    and    religious    preju- 

.     dices 158,   435,   553-54,   555 

Vigilance     committees 558 

wages,  wretched.  ..  157,  439,  440,  447,   553,  561 

linen    mills 78,    254,    553,    556,    565,    941 

mill   owners   control   government 552 

mob    177 

murder   glossed   over 179-80 

j  ustification  of 606 

Orange    raids 556,   563 

parade   for  Ulster  rebellion 144 

partisan  administration  of  law  and  order .  1 79-80, 
563-64- 

political  change,  550,  553;  sermons 157 

prosperity    f ,561 

Protestant    population '  176 

rates,     low 561,   562 

religious  issue,  attitude  of  clergy ....  567-68,   569 


Page 
476,     616, 


58, 


Black-and-Tans 

created     by     England 251-5. 

103  1,    1034-35- 
dissolved   by   labor   organization... 
553-54.    555- 

by    personal    friendships 1  7  1 

176.    564. 

kept    alive    by    manufacturers 79,    157-59, 

171,  178,  180-81,  254-55,  434-35,  440. 
557-58.    1034-35. 

mostly    talk 433 

Protestants   aid   Catholic    neighbors 171, 

176,    564- 
riots...  157,   175,   177,   180.  476,  520,  555-56,   1034 

school    issue 433,    440-42 

facilities    inadequate 551 

semi-literate      population      manipulated      by 

politicians   550-52 

unschooled  children  furnish  cheap  labor.  552-53 

shipyards 443,    553,    556,    561,   941 

relative    value    of 941 

Sinn    Fein,     rapid    growth     of 172,     564-65, 

567,    845-46. 

soldiers    contributed    to    war 175 

tuberculosis 561,     952-53 

unemployment    1029 

Unionist  leaders  spurn  South  of  Ireland.  .  560-62 

Belgium 209,    213,   751 

American   Commission   for   Relief  in 611 

atrocities  in.  exceeded  in  Ireland.  .  .ix,   209,   770- 
77-   785.   796,  S22-23,   827. 

devastated    areas    resemble    Ireland 18,   622 

fight    of,    continued    by    Ireland 851 

importation  of  cattle  fodder  from  forbidden.    580 

Irish   consul    in 966 

Bell,  Allan,  killed. 149,   622 

Bellew,  Sir  Henry  Grattan,  resignation  of.  155,   905 

Bennett,   Miss   Louie 532,   610,   S92 

conversion  to  Republicanism 1046-47 

secretary   Women   Workers'    Union 1001 

testimony   of 979-1015,    1019-1029,    1036-42, 

1044-52. 

Bentinck,    Lord    Henry 538 

Berkeley,     Captain     Fitzhodgings 538 

Berkshire    regiment,    flog    prisoner 1044)1 

Berry,  Rev.   Canon  J.   Fleetwood 716 

Biggs,    Mr.,    insincere    apologist 77 

Bigger,    Francis  Joseph. .  . 433 

Birkenhead,   Lord   (F.   E.   Smith) 143,    144 

leader  of  Ulster  rebellion 540-41,   1057 

Birr,  glass  industry 483 

Bishops'  graves  violated 70 1-2 

Black-and-Tans,   agents  of   British  trusts.  ..  .944-45 

aid    Mallow    firemen 618,    925-933 

ambush   of 256,    838,   882 

animals   wantonly   shot S9-60,   456,   669 

arms    carried    by 42,  256 

bayonet   prisoners   to   death 105-106 

beating  and  flogging  of  civilians 455,  507-8, 

509,  653-59,  664,  874,  664,  874-77,  879. 
885,   886,   889-90,    1062-63. 

flog  resigned  constables 417-18,   1061-62 

horsewhip   and   rob   pedestrians 653-54,    775 

brought  to  Ireland 40,   166,   353 

Burke,    District    Inspector,    killed 97,    98 

burnings    by 105,     107.     109-112,     119,     127. 

136,  411-12,  456,  583-84,  587-88,  602-3 
606,  643,  647,  662-63,  669,  796,  815,  816, 
825-43,  378,  879-81,  1027,  1058,  1060. 

burn  Cork 83S 

creameries  and  factories 37,   64,   204, 

251,  300,  339,  406,  519.  585-86,  587,  623, 
673,    944-45- 

houses    and    shops 63,    77,    81,    85,    S8, 

89,   103,   113,  371,  374.  3&3,  408-9,   521-22, 
601,    604,    605,    607,    618,    622,    657,    686, 
710-11,   816-18,    1058. 
prevent    firemen    extinguishing   flames.  .662-63. 
830-31,  S38. 

character      of 163,      249-50,      400-1,      402, 

414-15.   417.    427,    503.    508,    671,   695,   708 

close  shops  of  Tralee 338-39 

criminals   sent   to   Ireland   as 250 

crops  destroyed.  ...  no,  338~39,  456,  583-84,   602 


1072 


Blackpool  Page 

curfew   covers   outrages  by 80,    473,   597 

discipline,    lack    of... 427,    597,    599.    671-72,  689 

drinking    and    drunkenness 65,    82,    97-99, 

135-36,   '62,  400-1,   410,   587.   622,   670-71, 
675.  708,  77s,  778,  857,  859. 

drunken   officers   run    amuck 700-1 

government  bar  in  barracks.  ..  .416-17,  670-71 

duties   of 41,    163,    624,    673 

force   papers   to   publish   threats 788-89 

girls  held  up 381-82,   712-776,  887-88 

shot 403-4.  4°5,  669,  713 

incited  to  violence  by   Government.  .  .66,   385-86, 

59i,    592,    596,    623-24,    1057. 
indiscriminate   shooting   and   bombing.  ..  1 13,   650, 
656,    668-69,    708,    778,    790-91,    815,    857, 
880. 

killing    of S3-84,    97,    130-31,    161-62,   409, 

410-11,  412,   505. 

looting    by 103,     508-9,     511-12,     587,     670, 

675,    857-58,    934,    1058,    1067-68. 

like    Hessians    and    yeomen 233 

maurading 455-56,    592,    675-76,934 

murders   by 85,    105-6,    119-20,    130-5,   300, 

456,   503-4,   509-11,   668,  813,  814,  859-61, 
892,   1058,    1060. 

attempted 380-81,    382,    427,    602,    777-78, 

1063. 
licensed   to   kill    without    discipline 385-86, 


organization    591-92 

pay,    high 387,   414,  418 

raids  by.     See  Raids. 

Admiralty    marines    prevent 687 

extra    pay    and    drinks    for 418-19 

homes   defenseless   against 351-52 

recruited   in   England 35,  42,    163,   246,   402, 

418,    733. 
from   ex-soldiers,   adventurers,    criminals..  163, 
385,    414-15,    5<>3- 

why    possible 599 

relations  with  old  Constabulary 129,   135-36, 

166,    381,    400-1,    402,    415.    689,    695,  777 

shoot    Constables 262,    3S3,  401 

to   spy   on    Constabulary 129 

robbery   by 503-4,   5°8,    509,    5",   653,    664, 

675,     711-13,     775-76,     857-58,     877,     888, 
890,   934,    1067-68. 

run  amuck 410,   700-1,   708 

searches   and   hold-ups,    indiscriminate.  ...  871-74, 
884-85,   887-88,   891. 

of   mother    with    child 404-5 

soft-point   bullets   used   by 673-74 

terrorism  by.     See  Terrorism. 

uniform  of 35,  42,  410,  586,  591-92 

unpunished   for    outrages 672,    689,    708,   814 

See  also  Police  and  Royal  Irish  Constabulary. 

Blackpool 629,    630,    636,    639,    644,  655 

Blacksod    Bay 491 

advantage    for    American    trade 963 

Blackwater,   The.... 126,    929-30 

Blake,   Edward,    M.   P 489 

Blarney  Castle 875 

American   priest   assaulted 790 

Bloodless    revolution 352-55 

Bodkin,     Judge 624 

Bohemia    140 

Bohocoglin    376 

Bolshevik    gold 1049 

scare    unfounded 1047 

Bolshevism,    Sinn-Fein    unlike 882 

See  also  Soviet  and  Russia. 

Bombs   used   to   destroy   houses 862,   915 

to   murder 300,   650,   800-1 

to    terrorize 633 

Boroughs,    pocket .233-35 

Boston,    massacre 256 

trade   with   Ireland 967,  968 

Bouladuff    shot   up 823 

Boyne,   William  III   crossing  the. ......  550-51,   555 

Boy    Scouts 162 

auxiliary  to   Republican  army 649 

Countess  Markievicz  imprisoned  for  aiding.  .    663 


British  Page 

Murdered    by    Black-and-Tans 661-62,  663 

started  by   Lord  Mayor   MacCurtain 663 

Brabazen,    Miss,    shot 810 

Brannan,    Austin,   home  burned 810 

Brehon  laws 484-85,   945 

Brennan   farm   burned 583-84,   602 

Bristol,  demonstration  in 532 

British   Admiralty,   marines   disperse  raiders...    687 

semi-blockade  of  Irish   ports  by 968-71 

prohibits    American    passenger    service    to 

Cork 968-69 

Ambassador 5,    644M 

atrocities  in   Ireland,  exceed  German  in  Bel- 
gium  ix,  209,  770-71,   785,   796,  822-23 

cloaked  by  control  of  cables  and  press.  .784-85 

memoranda  on 1053-59,   1059-60 

two    years    of 148,    542-43 

See  also  Atrocities. 
authority  in  Ireland,  maintained  by  force.  166-67, 
520,  973,   1051. 

repudiated 44,    51,    86,    155,    244-45,    475. 

5i9,    724-25.   760,    1018-19,    1054. 

Board    of   Trade 483 

Cabinet    1056-  58 

Carson    becomes    member T45,  546 

cable    censorship 686,    784 

Congested   Districts   Board 494-97,    1014 

duplicity    of ioio 

Conservative  Party,   members  support   Ulster 

Rebellion     541 

Constitution    1 46 

courts.     See  Courts.  British. 

Embassy 4,    $n 

Empire ix,   215 

relation   of    Ireland   to 608-9,    951,    i°21 

safety    from    aggression 457,    609,  617 

guaranteed.  .  .251,    255-56,   617H,    1026,    1051 

treatment   of   nations   within 250-51 

Financial     Relations    Commission 236-38, 

487-90,   491,   945-46. 

garrisons  in  Ireland 40,  544 

Government,  agent  of  British  trusts 944-45 

aware  of  outrages  in  Ireland 548-49,  624 

betrays  pledge  to  Cork  mayor  and  bishop. 21 7-1 S 

to   Irish  soldiers 758 

broken  down  in  Ireland 548-49,   624 

Coalition,    adopts    Carsonism 544,    545-47 

Irish    policy    opposed   by   people 612-13 

press    615 

prevents   harmony   in   Ireland 616 

wins  khaki   election 544-45 

councils   sever   allegiance   to 155,   244-45, 

345,   724-25,    760,    1018,    1054. 

criticism  tolerated 614 

deceives   English   people   about   Ireland...      90, 

532.   586,   591,    597,   624,   793. 
denies      compensation      for      damage      by 

Crown  forces.  ..  .64,   114,  586,  921-22,  925 
destroys  Irish  agricultural  prosperity.  ..  580-81, 
583-84,    590,   698,   936-37- 

execution     of     prisoners 467-69,     541-42, 

546,    614,    1053. 

extracting  war  costs  from  Ireland 946-47 

evasion    of    responsibility    for    atrocities..    160, 
582,  623,  842,  987-88,  1057. 

discredited   by   broken    promises 522-23 

holds   up  Irish   railways 160,   582,   623 

Home    Office   294,   297,  313-14, 

317,  319,  324-26. 

Home   Rule   policy   unpopular 540 

ignores    Cork's    pleas    for    protection.  ..  .826-27 
indictments    of    coroners'    juries.. 52,  61,  80, 
362-63,   660,   767 
incites  troops  to  violence.  .66,  385-86,  474,  591, 

592,   593,   596,  623-24,    1057. 
justifies     reprisals    by    manufactured     pre- 
tense     81,   512-13,   580,   586, 

623,   624,   766-67,  930    988. 

Ministry   of  Transportation 582 

murders  concealed  by  falsehood.  ..  .33,   36,  61, 

160,     373-74.     593n,     624,     688-89,     767, 

768-69,  773,  813,  931,  1042,  1045,  1064-67. 

never  accepted  by  Irish   people.  ...  185-86,   624 


1073 


British  Page 

number  of  troops  in  Ireland  concealed.  148,  898 

power  and  respect   lost  in   Ireland 463-64, 

519-20,   523-24,   624,  661,   973. 
prevaricates     about     outrages     by     Crown 

forces 152-54.   580,  585-86,  746,   747, 

S25-26,     829-30,     839,     841,     931.     994-96, 


Tnionists   become   critical   of. 
950-5 


.554,   607,   912, 


ou    3  «■■ 

reasons   for   Irish   distrust   of ....465-67 

refuses   impartial    inquiry    into   burning    of 

Cork    826,  839-41 

suppresses    Strickland    report    on 841 

to    suppress    Ulster    Rebellion. ...  142-44,    205. 
54i,    543-  0^    , 

violates   international    law 260-62,    486-87. 

766,   786,   S08,    1059. 
White  Paper  convicts  of  Irish  atrocities..  542, 

543-44- 
withholds   local  government  grants.  ..  168.    586, 
"24-^5,   730-31.    1014. 

Minimum  Wage   Act   from   Ireland 447 

imperialism    558,   616 

crimes    of 1021 

interference   in    Ulster 230-31,    251-52. 

476,  616,   621. 

justice,   perversion  of 154,    177,    180,   205-6, 

207,   472. 

Quaid    .case 248-49 

Labor,   Commission   of   Inquiry  to   Ireland.  18-19, 
114,   572,  593)!,   74611,   770,  784.  836-38. 

find  Thurles   worse   than   Flanders 18,    19 

report    of 

cooperates    with    American    Commission...        5 

law    and   order    in   Ireland 150-52,    165,    178, 

248-49.    250,    609,    624,    638,    987-89,    995. 

cost    of 950-51 

navy    49 1,   97  J 

paper    money    prosperity 958-59,    971 

policy   in    Ireland 4S6-87 

a   continuity -. 477-80,   619 

alienates    Unionists. 607,    912,    1039 

anarchy   and   terrorism 617-18 

campaign     of 1053-58 

anti-Irish  propaganda.     See  English  propa- 
ganda. 

assassinations    and   murders ...151,    766 

of   public    officials 721-22,    736-40 

officially  ordered.  .  380,   385-86,  467-69,    1057 

break  down  Irish  morale 160,   585,   710-11 

denationalization    191-92,   221 

depopulation   65,   167,  450,   579,  585. 

619,   623,  936. 
destruction   of   agricultural   prosperity ..  580-81 , 
583-85. 
Irish  industries.  ..  .230,  445-47,  449,  466-67, 
481-83,  486,  580-89,  617-18,  619,  623,  940, 
987-90,   99^-92. 
British   capitalists    behind.  .944-45,   989-90 

discrediting   Britain   before    world 624 

''divide   and   conquer" 230-31,   616 

religious   difficulty   fostered 251-52,   476, 

616,   621,    1031,    1034-35. 

economic   blockade 579-84 

exploitation     457-58,    486,    500-1 

extirpation   of   Irish   race.  ..  .477-80,   486,    499, 
1009. 

false   evidence    manufactured 306-8,    336, 

586,    623,   624,   676,    690-91,   744,   931. 

frightfulness'    1056-58 

indictment    of 486,    623 

provocation  of  open  rebellion.  ...  135,   140,   151, 
233,   260,  382-83,   396,   702-3. 

stamp    out    self-government 40,    42,    164-65, 

168,  353-54,   357,  606,   726-27,    1001,   1051, 
1053- 

starvation    254,    337 

Ulster   issue   insincere   excuse 616 

propaganda.      See   English   Propaganda. 

Red    Cross 575 

a    military    organization 610-11 


Burnings  Page 

rule  in   Ireland 77,    148,    150-52,    166-67 

524,   624,   847,   898. 

sanctions  murders 151,  380,  385-86,  467-69 

secret  service 117,   245-50,   257-60,   331-32, 

354,  357,  592,  594,  597,  623,  624,  780,  860. 

sink  ship  bearing  arms 216 

troops,    moved    to    Ireland 548-49 

trained    in    Ireland 148,    544 

Women's    International    League.       See    Wo- 
men's   International  League,   British. 

Brixton   prison • .29,    79,    330,    1038 

death   of  Lord   Mayor  MacSwiney  in... 263,  265, 
279.    289,    311-12. 
Broderick,   John,   attempted  murder  of.... 411,   854 

home    burned 4I1>    4i3>    854 

parents  ordered  to  stay  in  burning 411-12 

Broderick,   Daniel  J.,   testimony   of 664-83 

Broderick,    Miss,    assaulted 855 

Bromyard    271 

Brosna   sacked '   675 

captured   police   released   uninjured 794 

Brosnan,   Peggy,    wantonly   shot 669,    810 

Bryce,   Ambassador  James 77,  89,   572 

Bryce,   Airs.    Annan 89,    132 

imprisoned    77)    i0S8 

Buckley,    Batt,    affidavit 768-69 

Buckley  brothers,  shot  while  prisoners 8ow 

688-89,  767,  811. 

Buckmaster,     Lord 538 

Bullets,   dum-dum,  fired  at   Miss   MacSwiney.!      80 

soft-point,  supplied  to  Crown  forces 673-74 

used    to    murder    O'Connell 766 

violation  of  international   law 766 

Buncrana,  town  hall  seized 

Burke,    Edmund " 

Burnings: 

Cork      •■••• 643,   647,   662-63,   825-43,   878 

879-81,  1058. 
firemen  prevented  from  extinguishing.  .662-63 
830-31,  83S. 
creameries  .....37,  64,  152-54,  204,  251,  339 
387,  406,  519,  584-86,  618,  623,  673,  680 
824,  913-14,  987,  988-89,  991-92,  993 
994-96,    1015,    1058,    1060. 

inhumane    consequences 590-91 

suffering  of  farmers   from.... 64,   339,    590-91 
927,   944-45- 

truth   about,   suppressed 152-54,    585-86 

994-96. 


farms    37^-7^,   522,   583-84,   714-15,    1058 

hay  ricks  burned no,   338-39,  371,   374 

383,    456,    520,    580-1,    583-84,    602,    623 

714-15. 
houses 88,  89,    107,   109-11,   119,    126,   136 

37i,   374,   383,   411-12,  456,   584,   602,   603 

604,  605,  607,  618,  643,  647,  669,  773 
810-11,  81s,  823-25,  854,  861-62,  883 
898,    911-12,    923,    1015,    1057,    1058,    1059 

victims   left   in 107-9,   411-12,    609 

women   and   children    driven   from 137 

370-71,     564,     571-72,     583-84,     600,     602 

605,  606,    669-70,    749,    810-11. 
indiscriminate   63-64,  520,  580,  603,  622 

804-5,  815,  832-34,  912. 

night   of I05,   370,   912 

officially  ordered 66,   804-5,  916-17,    1058-59 

Protestant  property   destroyed.  ..  .37,   77-78,    126, 
580,   607,   S32-34,  912,  915. 

purpose   of 111-12,   374,   842,   915-16 

shops,  stores,   and  offices 77,  88,    107,   no, 

370,  408,  520,  563,  587-88,  603,  604,  606 
643,  647,  662-63,  666,  773,  812,  823-25 
825-26,    828-29,    837-38,    911-12,    923-24: 

throughout    Ireland 698,   715,   89! 

town  and  city  halls 35-36,   127,  408,'  603 

605,   618,    666,    815,   819-22,   910-11,    1015 

towns   and   cities 478,    520-22,    524,    570 

.812-13,   822-25,   910-14,    1027,    1057, '1058 

violation  of  rules  of  war 261,  1059 

See    also    Destruction    of   Property    and    Re- 
prisals. 


1074 


Burns  Page 

Burns,  John 467 

Business,   effect  of  terrorism  on.... 38,    116,  655-56 

premises   looted   and   destroyed 39,   40,    77, 

85,  88,  100,  107,  no,  113,  114,  177, 
367-68,  370,  40S,  520,  563,  587-88,  589, 
686,  722-23,  773,  812-13,  815,  823-24, 
825-26,  858-59,  S62,  884,  885-86,  911-12, 
923-24,  928,  1068. 
Butt,  Sir  Isaac,  constitutional  movement  of...    188 

Butterfield,    Lord    Mayor 276 

Buttevant,  shooting  of  Patrick  Nunan  at.  .  .  .771-73 

soldiers   from   burn    Mallow 618,    908-14 

Byrne,    Inspector    General,    removed 1056 


Cables,   British  control  of  suppresses   news.  .  784-86 
Caddan,   John   Joseph,    ex-Constable: 

testimony    of 407-420 

Cadets.      See   Auxiliary    Corps. 

Calbally   shot   up   by   police 824 

Caltra   partially   sacked 824 

Cambridge 271 

Cameron   Highlanders   disarmed 777 

insult  American   woman 691-92 

looting    by 778 

murder    prisoner 89,    688-89,    768-69 

raids  by 691,   703,   705,   777,   778 

terrorism    by 693 

Camlough     burned 899 

Campaign   of   passive   resistance 44.   87, 

352-55,   358. 

gives  way  to   force   under   aggression 353-5° 

Canada    139.    '84,    540,   609 

Canadian    citizen 71 

law    184 

prison     329 

towns     158 

Capitalists,  oppose  united  Ireland.  .436-37,   562,  944 

Capp'oquin     126 

Capuchin   Friars   raided   and   arrested 1037-38 

Carewe    337 

Carrick,    Earl     of 445 

Carrick-on- Shannon  partially   sacked  by  police.    824 

Carrigaholt,    Gaelic    college 1032 

Carrigrohane,   captured   military  released   unin- 
jured        794 

Carrigtwohill,    captured    police    released    unin- 
jured     794 

farm   and   animals   burned 714 

Carriheen    128 

Carroll,    Professor,    raided 592 

Carson,  Sir  Edward 78,   143,  211,  364,   1034 

economic    interests 559.    990 

elevates   religious   differences 158,    436,    574 

fears  labor   control 555,   574 

"Grammar   of  Anarchy" 205,   229 

imports   guns   from   Germany 144,    206-7, 

607,    648,    651. 

King    prohibits    arrest 144 

leads   Ulster   rebellion 144,    204-5,   207,   540 

member  British  Cabinet.  .  .  . '. 145,  546 

opposes    proportional    representation 225 

policy,   adopted   by   British   Government ...  544-47 

cost  of 594 

greatly    modified 545,    549 

prevents   capital   levy 555,    574,    I°49 

shifts  position  on  Home  Rule.  .545,  549,  554,  574 

Solemn  League  and  Covenant 205,   559 

starts    Ulster    Volunteers 205,    1057 

supported   by   English    Tories 143,   205, 

540-41,   545- 

threatens   unions   with   Germany 204,   214 

treason   against   the    Crown 145 

Carsoiiism,   becomes   Government   policy ....  544-45, 
546-47- 

stronghold   of  capitalism 555,    561 

trades   unions   threaten    hold   of 554-55 

Carsonites     242 

hold   Coalition   Government  together 601 

Casement,   Sir   Roger 140,   211,   213,  617 

Castleeiny,    creamery    destroyed 824 

Castlerea,  houses  wrecked  by  police ,.    824 

Castlereagh,   Lord 229,    235 


Civilians  Page 

Castleisland     390 

Casualties   of    war 595,    621-22,    805-7, 

1042,     1055,     1060.       See    also    Police, 
shooting   of. 

Catholic   bishops 159 

Church,  maltreated  by  Crown   forces.  ...  1036-39 

disabilities   228-29,   939 

domination    433,    606-7 

emancipation    188,   191,   230-31 

school  issue  in   Ulster 433,   440-42 

traders     159 

workers,   expulsion   of 157,    174-75,    176, 

180,   556-57,    1049-50. 
Catholics    and    Protestants    fight    against    Eng- 
land        175 

admitted    to    Parliament 188 

to     schools 191 

English  prejudice  against 613 

franchise    restricted 228—29,    234 

Gaelic    League    unites    with    Protestants.  ...  1030, 
1031-32. 

in     Belfast 171 

in    Royal   Irish   Constabulary 142,    175 

refuse   to   persecute 252-54 

Cattle,    displace   human   beings 936 

driving    469,    472,    588,    1006,    1009,    ioit 

marketing   of 936-37,    989 

raising,    impoverishes    Ireland 936-37 

promoted    by    absentee    landlords 937-38 

by^  England 938 

Cavan,    County 179 

Cecil,    Lord    Robert .    839 

Celtic  Literary   Society , 201 

cemeteries,   terrorized  people  flee  to.  .692,  710,  917 

Central    Empires <....    214 

Charlemont,    Earl    of 230-31,   251 

Chicago,    crime    in,    compared 461 

Daily   News 428,    429 

living  conditions   compared 452-53 

Tribune   505 

Childers   Commission 237,   487-90 

Childers,    Erskine,    Lieut-Commander 77,    159, 

163,  237. 

Childers,   Hugh  C.   E 237,   489 

Children,    arrested 744 

beaten   and   flogged 507-9,    514-15,    645 

child   labor 455 

exploited     458 

laws  lax 455,  458 

scandalous   wages 553 

unschooled      children      become      cheap 

labor    552-53 

compelled  to  witness  destruction  of  home...    no 

deprived    of    milk 300 

held  up    644 

shot  by   Crown   forces 403-4.   405,   456,    503, 

661-62,    669,    700-1,    810,   813,    1040,    1060. 

suffering   338 

terrorized 14,   19,  38-39,  638,  810,  865,  868, 

883,   902,    917-18,    1040,    1041. 

unclad,   driven   from  home 104,   810 

(See   Women  and  Children.) 

Chisholm,    Dr.    Catherine 549,    620 

Christian  Brothers'  schools... 8,   195,  280,  396,  699 

shelter  terrorized  women  and  children 692 

Christianity     .  . 287 

Church   of   England 191,    640 

of   Ireland 186,    194,   251,   640,    1031,    1032 

disestablished     193 

Gaelicizing    influences 1033-34 

Churches    raided 701-2 

Citizens'   Army,    Irish 212,   216,   649, 

Civil  liberties  in  England  and  America 614 

suppressed    47-48,   116,  388,  398,  401-2,  424 

Civilians,   assaults   on   unarmed 107-9,    368-69, 

455.  503,  507-8,  509,  653-54,  664,  670, 
706-7,  775,  790,  810-11,  874-77,  879,  885, 
886,  889-90,  987,  994,  1054-55,  1058,  1060. 
1062-63. 

atrocities   upon 604,   706-7,   778-79,   780-84, 

874-77,    1058.      See   also   Beating   and 
Flogging,  Murder,  Torture,  etc. 


1075 


Clancy  Page 

burning   of    property    violates   rules    of   war.. 261, 
'059. 

horsewhipped    653-54.    775 

shooting  violates   rules   of    war 262,    1059 

Sinn  Feiners  ordered  bayonetted 396-98 

ordered   summarily   shot 380.   385-86,    1057 

unarmed    for    self-defense 374,    706-7,    711, 

S 10-11,   865-66,   932,   934. 

Clancy,   Patrick,   murder  of 766,   811 

Clancy,    Peter,    murder   of 1064-65 

Clare."  County 58,   248,   366.   377,    579,   693 

coroners'    inquests    suppressed 769—70 

destruction    in 715 

fairs   and   markets  suppressed 3S8 

hay  ricks  burned , 580,   590 

suppressions    unwarranted    in 388-89 

Claremorriss.     captured     police     released     unin- 
jured        795 

Clark.    Roger 518,    5-'5 

report   of   on    Irish   conditions 519.    523-24 

Clarke,   John    Charles,   testimony 699-715 

Clarke,    Thomas 241 

executed    468 

Clayton,     Divisional     Inspector,     indicted     for 

murder    363 

Cleary,    Michael,   shot 5  1—52 

Cleeves,    Sir   Thomas 903,    916 

creamery    of,    destroyed 64 

milk   condensery   burned 618,    913-16 

respected    by    employes 915-16 

Clerkenwell    prison,    blown    up 238 

Clogheen    378.    379,    380.    382.    383,    389, 

390.   421-22.   427. 

girl     assaulted 810 

religious    services    invaded 1038 

Clonan,     Councillor,    arrested 597 

Clonmel    390,    391,   42 1 

Cloture    bill 189 

Clovne,   captured   police   released   uninjured...  794. 

807. 
Chine,   Connor  , murder  cloaked  by  falsehood.  .  1045 

E.    Lysaght's    statement    of 1064-67 

Coal,   English  competition   with   crushed. .  .467,   990 

Irish    215,  446-47 

anthracite    990-9 1 

estimated    tonnage 446 

Industrial   Commission  inquiry   into... 980,   982 

mines  undeveloped 170,  446-47,  958 

peat    467.   961,   980 

quality    170,   447 

Coalition   Government,   adopts   Carsonism 544, 

545,  546-47- 

Irish    policy    opposed    by    people 612-13 

Press    615 

prevents    harmony    in    Ireland 616 

wins    Khaki    election 544-45 

Cochran    home    burned 109-110 

Cohalan,    Canon 779 

Coercion   Act 68,   251,    764.    1044 

Coleman,   James,   murdered.  .618,   662,    813-14,    892 

Collins,   Michael 430-31,    780,    1065,    1067 

Commandeering   of   houses 39,   41,    62,   66, 

72.    78,    126,    148,    982,    1057. 

Commanding    officer    incites    to    violence 66, 

385-86,    591,    592,    593,    596,    623-24,    1057. 
Commission    on    Conditions    in    Ireland.       See 

American    Commission. 
Committee    of    One    Hundred    Fifty    on    Condi- 
tions   in    Ireland iii-vi,    3 

Compensation  denied  for  destruction  by  Crown 

forces   ....64,   114,  586,  591,  597,  624,  793 
Condon,     W.     J.,     life     sought     by     Black-and- 

Tans    380,    381,    382,    385 

Congested    Districts    Board,    duplicity   of 1010 

established    494 

fails  to   distribute  land 494-97,    1014 

Connacht  Tribune ■ 715-16 

Connaught,   Province 167,   466,    494 

depopulation     of 1010 

land  trouble  in 1005,   1009,    1010 

Connolly,   James 157,   216,   649,    1001 

Connolly,   execution   of 468,    1047 

Connolly,    John,    murdered 813 


Cork  Page 
Connolly.    .Martin,    petrol   confiscated    from....    no 
Connolly,    Mrs.,    killed    by    terrorism    and    ex- 
posure        9 1  7 

Connolly,   public   house   looted   and   burned.  .  1 13-14 

Connor,  John,   wantonly   shot 1063 

Conscientious     objectors 614-15 

Conscription    .  .  .  .' 143.    544.    759 

German    plot    invented    to    justify 143 

opposition   to 614 

Protestants   join    with    Catholics   in 1033 

Considine,    shop    looted    and    burned 367,    370 

Constabulary.      See    Royal    Irish    Constabulary. 

Constituent    Assembly 1026,    1049 

Contemporary   Ireland,   excerpt    from 1042-44 

Continental    Congress 169 

Contrast     between     Polish     heroes     and      Irish 

criminals     1 46 

Convents,  raided  and  terrorized 72,    1037,   1058 

shelter  terrorized   women •  •    9]7 

Cookstown,     captured      police     released     unin- 
jured        794 

Cooperation,  development  of 115-   1  53.  99 1.  994 

997,    1031,    1050. 

without    independence    worthless 485-86 

Cooperative   banks 444-45,   448,   944,    959~6o 

commonwealth    163,    484-85,    944-45 

creameries     461,    994 

built    from    farmers'    savings 944 

burned    37-3».    152-54,   204,    339,    519. 

584-86,   987,   988-89,   991-92. 

loss  entailed 64,  339,  590-91,  921-22, 

923-24,    944-45.    991-94,    996. 

number   of 339,    944,   991-92,    994 

redress   demanded 1  53,  996 

redress  denied 586,   995 

truth     about,     prevaricated    by     Govern- 
ment     1 52-54,    585-86,   994-96 

employes   beaten    or    killed 456,    586,    994 

looted    992,   994,    i°45 

started   by   Sir   Horace   Plunkett 204,   584 

wrecked     •• ••387,    992 

See   also    Creameries,   Destruction   of. 

development    of   land 494,    960 

Employes'    Union 578 

Guild    • 55o 

industries    448,   585,   972.  973, 

986,   990,   994,    1065. 

destroyed    by    Crown    forces 993, 

1045,    1064.    1067-68. 

suppressed    by    British 984-89,    9go, 

movement    461  -62     485.    5»S 

British    Government    opposes 586,    944-45, 

959,   987-88,  990,   991. 

growth    of ...  .991.    994.    997 

societies    448,   461-62,   485,    ^2. 

944,   978.   994- 

among    deep-sea     fishermen 9/- 

battling   with    English    trusts 944-45.    99" 

taxes    on q?° 

wholesale    society l>-",° 

Coote,    Sir   Algernon '55 

Copenhagen,   Irish  trade  with 90/ 

Corbett,    Canon,    of    Mallow °IB 

secures    pledge    of   protection    for    town....  90b   0 

asks  reason   for  violation 9>° 

Cork    199.    -'49 

ambushes    605.    806.    828,    838 

American   sailors   in 652-53,    854-8.S9 

beating   and    flogging    of    citizens 653-54, 

775,    790-91. 

Black  Thorn   Shop   destroyed 81,   420,   825 

bombs   used   to  kill   citizens 650,    800-1 

British  break  pledge  to  mayor  and  bishop. 217-18 
Government,    ignores   city's    pleas    for    pro- 
tection      ■  ■  ■ 826-27 

refuses   impartial    inquiry 826,    839-41 

suppresses     Strickland     report 841 

i  udges    ostracized 245-46 

burning  of 643,   647,   662-3,   796,   815, 

816,   825-43,   878,   879-81,    1027,    1058. 
British     Labor     investigation    convicts 

Crown    forces 836-38 


<)>U. 


994 


1076 


Cork  Page 

firemen      prevented      from      extinguishing 

flames    662-63,   830-31,   838 

guilt  of  Crown   forces  falsely  denied 841 

losses,   financial 831,    832-35 

people    made    homeless   by 835-36,    840 

"private"    military    inquiry   into 840-41 

problems    created    by 843 

reason    for 842 

worse   than    Louvain 796 

captured   military   released   uninjured 794-95 

Chamber   of   Commerce 203,   814 

demands  impartial  investigation 839-40 

plea   for  city's   protection   ignored 826-27 

representative    debarred    from    military    in- 
quiry        841 

City  Hall: 

attacks  on 618,  815,  819-21 

destruction   of 605,   816,   819-22, 

826,   829-30,   838,    878. 

raided    and    looted 736,    754,    79i,    982 

usefulness  to  people  of  Cork.  .831-32,  833,  981 

continuous   shootings   and   murders 651 

corporation,  character  of  men  on 799 

declares   allegiance  to   Dail   Eireann......    345 

repudiates  suggestion  citizens  burned  city.    839 

County    198 

British    outrages   in 811-13 

curfew    ....80,   122,  420,  604,  622,  664,   828,  871 

destruction   (apart   from  burning) 715, 

722-23,   812-13,    825. 

Easter   uprising   in 216—17,    218 

Employers'  Federation  demands  impartial  in- 
quiry        840 

fairs  and  markets   suppressed 388 

harbor    619,    965 

American    freight    service    to 168,    204, 

966-67,  968-69. 
Britain   prohibits  American   passenger   ser- 
vice  to 168,    619-20,    968-69 

Commissioners    * 719,  964,  965,  970 

demand    investigation    of    city's    destruc- 
tion        840 

hold-ups    871-74,   884-85,   887-88 

housing    shortage 843-44 

indiscriminate    shooting 522,    605,    654, 

790-91,   Si 5,   824,   889. 
Industrial   Development  Association.  ..  .207,   618, 
619-20,   814. 

inquests   suppressed 769-70 

jail    219,   268 

Jews    251,   640,    742 

Library,    burning    of 829-30,    838 

usefulness  to  city 831-32,   833 

looting  and  robbery 81,  654,  712-13,  722-23, 

74i,   747-48,   749,   752-53,   754-55,   775-76, 
813,  823,  877. 
Lord     Mayor     and     councillors     pursued     by 

British    278-79,    282-83,    303-4, 

720-21,  734-36. 

attempted    murder    of 736-38,    740-42 

imprisonment    of.      See    MacSwiney,   Lord 

Mayor  Terence. 
murder  of.     See  MacCurtain,  Lord  Mayor 
Thomas. 

Martyrs'    Plot 329-30,    801 

murders 280-81,  341-42,  359-65,  595,  654, 

713,   721-22,   797,   800-1,   813,   815. 

continuous    651 

National    Monument  shot   up 889,   892 

newspapers    640,  641,   737,   837 

forced   to   insert   threats 659,    788-89 

raided    81 

suppressed    787 

Poverty    256 

Protestant     bishop 640 

mayor   elected 253 

raids   81,   122-23,   124,  361,   522,  604-5, 

630-32,   636,   644,    656-57,    740,   742,   747- 


Courts  Page 

48,    751-53,    754-55,    756-57,    79i,   812-13, 
815,   823. 

nightly    124,    651,    722-23 

Relief    Committee 843 

religious    difficulties    unknown 251-52,   640 

Republicans  95   per  cent,   of  population 736 

reprisals 81,     605,     618,     828,883 

School    of    Art 981 

suffering  of   people 591,    647,   715 

summary  of   outrages   in 811-13,   814-16 

Sunday's    Well,    deaf    man    killed    at 713 

terrorism  in....  72,  80,   81,   122,  420,   522,  604-5, 
653-56,   662-63,   749,   752-53,   773-74,   776, 
790-91,   821,  828,   883. 
effect  on  business  and  industry .......  .655-56 

unemployment    656,   842,   1029 

University   of 444,   454,  459 

University    College 719,    722,    799,  813 

Vigilance  Committee 652-53 

'Volunteers     2 1 1 ,  64 1 

Hall    269,  345 

women,  raided.. 741,  748-49,  778,  810-11,  817-18 

searched    712 

terrorized 742,    748-49,     752-53,     756-57, 

810-11,  813,   814,  816-18,  822. 

Coroners'  inquests  suppressed 50,  69,  80,    168, 

409,   622,   763,   769-70,   861,   1057. 

gives  immunity  for  outrages 770,  1057 

last   legal   inquest 763 

supplanted  by  military  inquiries.  50,  69,  80,  763 

murderers    to    judge    themselves 770 

juries,  impaneled  by  accused  police... 33,  363-64, 
764-66. 
indict  military  and  police  for  murder.  .  .31-33, 

61,    79-S0,    766. 
indict    officials    of    British    Government...      80 
verdicts  ignored  by  British  Government..      52, 
61,   767-6S. 

Costello.    Dr.    Thomas    B 1062 

Cotter,   Rev.   Dr.   Tames  H.,  testimony  of.... 75-91 

Council  of  Action,  fails  to  act 320,  321 

stops  support   of  Polish  war 615 

Councils.     See  County   Councils,    Urban  Coun- 
cils,  Local  Government. 
Coughlan,   Alderman,    attempt   to   murder ...  740-42 

Coughlan,  Mrs.  Eamon,  affidavit  of 741 

County  Councils 1 56«,   734ft 

character    of   men    on 799 

declare    allegiance    to    Dail    Eireann ...  155,   168, 
244-45,   345,    724-25,    760. 

elections   won    by    Sinn    Fein 154-156,    475, 

724,    1014. 

England     seeks     to     paralyze 168,     726-27, 

730-31,   979- 
grants  withdrawn,   168,   586,  724-25,   1014; 

from    Rpublican    counties    only 760 

members  arrested  and  imprisoned.  ..  .356,  720-21 

organization    and   duties 723-24 

Unionist    760 

Courtney,   Lady 538 

Courtney,    Sean,    affidavit 752-53,    754~55 

home  raided  and  robbed 751-53 

tortured   752-53 

Courts,   British,   closed 26,   246-47,   678 

failure   of 26,    37,    762-63,    1008,    1055 

military    enforce    decrees 764-973 

pervert  justice 154,   177,   180,  205-6,  207, 

248-49,  1044,   1053. 

repudiated  by  Irish 51,  245-46,  330,   697, 

_  755,   761,  999- 

resignation   of  magistrates    from 51,  246 

superseded  by  courts-martial 154,  330,  469, 

542,   622,   763,   1044,    1060. 

Republican   353,  761-62 

arbitration 26-27,   37,   44,  245,   732,  761, 

998,   101 1. 
authority  derived  from  consent  of  people.     74 
173,   247,   621,   973,   977,   999,    ion. 


1077 


Cove  Page 

British  endeavor  to  suppress 250-51,  356, 

621,   697,   732,   761-62,  979,    1001,    1012— 13. 

police  send   men   to 1 67 

courts  supplanted  by 245-47,  607,  762-63, 

9/2,    1055. 

civil   justice 167,   761,    764,    972 

coyer  all  but   four   counties 761-62 

criminal  justice 522,   732,   972,   976 

decrease    of    litigation "63-64 

decrees   respected 37,    173,   247,   697,   698, 

.973,   977,   999.    1012,    1013. 

efficiency    of 173,    522,    607,    677-78,    709, 

761,   999.    1008,    ion. 
Greenwood,  Sir  Hamar,  admits  existence..    154 

High   Court 761-62,   1012 

impartiality 522,    761,    ion 

industrial  conciliation  boards 972,    1000-1 

Judges   liable   to  arrest 732-761 

elected  and  appointed 999,   101 1 

judgments   prove   Irish   fit   for   self-govern- 
ment     330,    356,   522 

justice  obtainable  only  in 607,    1013-14 

Land  Courts.  .  .961,  974,   1005-8,   1011-12,  1013 

only  judicial  body  in  towns 37,   678 

organization 760-61,    998-99,    1011-12 

penalties  imposed  by... 46,  604.  607,  709,   1007 

Solomon's  judgment   in 330,   886 

used   by   British   insurance   company 607. 

973,   999- 

used  by  Unionists 155,   247,  251,  909 

Cove,  attempted  murder  of  Republican  police.  .    793 

named    240 

sacked 72,    695-96,    778 

Urban     council 777 

See  Queenstown. 

Covenanters,     Ulster 205 

"Cowardly   murders   of   police" 90,   256 

"Cow  lots"  cause  emigration  and  cheap  labor. 448-49 

Coyle,   Albert,  x;   attest   of  transcript xi 

Official    Reporter   to    Commission viii 

Craven,  Miss  Nellie,  brother  brutally  flogged.  507-8, 
514-15- 

cousin   murdered 509-13,    859-60 

house    raided    ;tnd    looted 508-9 

testimony    of 506-16,    60311 

Creameries    destroyed    by    Crown    forces 37, 

64,  153,  204,  251,  387,  406,  519,  584-86. 
623,  673,  680,  824,  913-14,  944,  987, 
991-93.    994-96,    1015,    1058,    1060. 

alleged   justification 65,    89,    387,    586 

critical     suffering     caused    by 338-39,     406, 

585,  590. 

employes    beaten    or    killed 456,     586,     994 

Government  refuses  compensation.  ..  586,  921-22, 
995- 

threatens  destruction 988 

impartial    inquiry    demanded 153,   996 

threatens     998 

inhumane    consequences 590-91 

loss    inflicted    on    farmers 64,    339,    590-91, 

927,    944-45- 

Mallow    milk    condensery 590-91,    618, 

913-16,   018,   987. 

number  of 585,   590,  600,   944 

purpose  to  ruin  Irish  industry 585,  623,   944 

truth  prevaricated  by  Government 152-154 

585-86,  624,  994-96. 
See  also  Cooperative  Creameries. 

Creed,   John,   affidavit   of 775-76 

Crime,  absence  of  in  Ireland? 9,  247,  248,  250, 

357-58,  378-79,  422-23.  460-61,  637-38, 
904. 

created  by  Crown  police 151.  609,  624,  638, 

661-62. 

suppressed     by     Republican     police 45,     46, 

128,  172-73,  378,  475.  524,  651,  685, 
694-95,  697,  708-9,  793,  881,  886,  973, 
977,   1006-7. 

Criminals,  captured  by  Republican  police 45, 

172-73,  378,   651,   695-97,  793- 

England  treats   prisoners  as 260-62,   786-87 

sent  as  spies  and  Black-and-Tans.  .  .  .  163,  249-50, 
414-15,    503- 
Croke  Park  massacre 300,   59311,    863-67 


Cumann   na   m'Ban  Page 

Cromwell,    Oliver,    198,    1009;   conditions    worst 

since 847 

Crowley,  Daniel  Francis,   Ex-Constable.  ..  .422,  427 

leaves    Ireland    to    protect    life 389 

resigns    from    Constabulary 385 

testimony  of 376-89 

Crowley,    Mrs.,    shot 654 

Crown   forces,   bad   living  conditions  of 592 

beat  and  flog  American  citizens 790,   874-77, 

879,  885,  886,   889-90. 
civilians 107-9,    455,    503,    507-8,    514-15. 

653-54,     670,     706-7,    775,    790,    987,    994, 

1054-55,    1058,   1060,   1062-63. 

priests 368-69,   796,  800,  801-2,   1058 

burnings  by.     See  Burnings. 

cost    of 591,   897-98,    950 

crops  destroyed no,  338-39,   37',   374,   383, 

456,     520,     522,     580,     583-84,     590,     603, 

714-15,   1058. 

discipline   broken   down 153,   624 

lack   of 427,    597,    599,    671-73,    689,    914, 

1058. 
drinking    and    drunkenness 65,    82,    83,    87 

97-99,    100,    135-36,   162,    165,   367-68,  369 

399,  400-1,  410,  418-19,  566,  587,  622,  670 

675,   686,   687,    700-1,    708,    778,    703,    812 

814,    822,    853,    857,    859,    892,    910,    914 

933,   1040,   1041-42,   1068. 
Government     bar     in     barracks 416,   426, 

566,  670-71. 

firemen,   aided 838,   914,   925,   933 

fired   upon 662-63,   830-31,   854,   911,  913 

forced    position    of 170,    565-66,    593,    596, 

597,   598,  623-24,    1057- 
friendly  relations  with  people 129,  171,  622, 

933.    1023-24. 
hold-ups     and     robbery 59,     70-71,     381-82, 

492-93,   503-4,    508,   509,   5ii,   513-14,   623, 

653,   664,   666,   675,   679,  681,   682,   713-M, 

741,     744-46,     749,     752-53,     754-55,     756. 

775-76,   812,   857-58,   871-74,   877,   884-85, 

887-88,  890,  934,   987,    1067-68. 
incited     to     violence     by     Government 66, 

385-86,    591,   592,    593,    596,   623-24,    1057, 
looting.  ..  .39,  40,  81,   100,   114,    177,  233,  367-68. 

503,    511,    514,    563,    587.    623,    666,    667, 

670,     675,     722-23,     744-46,     747-48,     749. 

753,  754,  756,  773.  77%,  779,  812,  813,  838, 

842,    858-59,    910,    923-24,    933,    934,    994. 

1067-68. 

mentality     59 1 

murders  by.      See  Murders. 

number  of 142,  148,  591,  594,  898,  935,  973, 

1057.  , 

organization    59!-92,   622 

outrages  by,  memoranda  on.  ...  1053-59,   1059-60 

raids.      See   Raids. 

shooting  and  killing  of 141,   147,  251,  355-57, 

366-67,  408,   521,   592,   618,   666,   778,   805, 

852,    881-82,    907,    996,    1022,    ro27,    1045, 

1053-S8. 
See  also  Police,  Killing  of . 
terrorism  by.     See  Terrorism. 
removal    of    necessary    for    peace 524,    525, 

539-40,    593,    607,    609,    624,     1026,     1047, 

unpunished  for  outrages.  .  .659-60,  672,  689,  708. 

814,  922. 
See    also    Auxiliary    Corps.    Black-and-Tans. 
Marines,     Military.     Police,     Royal     Irish 
Constabulary. 

Crown     solicitor 61,     298,    364 

Crozier,    General,    resignation   of 599" 

Cruelty    drives    woman    insane 88 

to  prisoners.     See  Prisoners. 
Cruise,   District   Inspector,    171,   411;    promoted 

after   reprisals 4 1 3 

Cuba    255 

Culture,   Irish 333.   477-   5oo,   851,    1043 

Cumann   na   m'Ban 631,   811 

aids    Republican    Government 642 

meaning    647 

organized 207-  " 


purpose 


62^ 


1078 


Cumann   na   n'Eaglaise  Page 

relief   work 645-47 

supports  'Volunteers 212-628,   645 

suppressed    474 

women    assaulted   by    military 855 

Cumann   na   n'Eaglaise 1033-34 

Cummins,    Joe,    shot 854 

Curfew   law y2,   80,   419,  420 

child  shot   after  change  in 403—4,  405 

cloaks    outrages    by    Crown    forces 80,    473, 

597,  622-23,  664,  815,  828,  838. 

in  Cork 80,  122,  420,  604,  622,  664,  828,   871 

in    Galway 418-603 

in     Limerick 83,   597 

Curragh  Camp,  544;  officers  refuse  to  suppress 

Ulster    rebellion 145,    205,   543 

Currie,    Bertram    W ' 489 

Curry,    captured    police    released 795 

Curzon,    Lord 153 

Cuskinny,  American  woman  insulted  at 691-92 

Czecho-Slovakia 140,   146,    166,   609 

language   saved 1 042-43 

D 

Dail    Eireann 485,    549,   972 

averts    land    riots 1005-6 

constructive     legislation 475,     484-85,   524, 

584,  971-72,  973,  980-81,   1051. 

councils   declare  allegiance   to 44,    51,    155, 

168,  244-45,  345,  475,  724-25,  760,  1018-19 

no   repudiations  of   allegiance 760 

decrees... 974-78,    1005-6,    1036 

conserving  Irish   resources 975-76,    977-78 

establishing  a  Civil  Service 975 

establishing    a    Commission    of    Industrial 

Inquiry 167,   975-76 

establishing  an   Economic   Council 977-78 

establishing  a   Land   Commission 978 

observed    by    people 973 

restricting   emigration 868-69,    974-75 

restricting   increase    of    rent 976-77 

restricting  land   litigation 974,    1005-6 

established 241-42,   474-75,    545,    548,    1054, 

1055- 

labor   representation   in 1  049 

Land   Bank  created 960 

Local   Government  Department ....  1016,    1018-19 

members , 431,    460,    462 

imprisoned  and  executed.  ...  161;/,  356,  4S3-84, 
621,   721-22,    1000,    1055. 

_  official   reports  of , 504 

open   meetings...    241-42,    243-44,   449,   484,    524 

prevented    from    developing    industries 589 

proscribed  by  Britain 169,  243-44,  353,  621, 

975-76.   979.    1051,    1054. 
relation   to   Empire   determinable   only   by...    608 

supported    by    people 29-30,     59,     169,    475, 

519-20,  621,   624,   973,  999. 
See  also  Irish  Parliament. 

Daily    Herald,    London 249-50,    533-34 

1  >airies     115,167 

inquiry  on  milk  production 167,   982,   983 

Danagher,    automobile    confiscated 680 

Darcy,    Constable 701 

Dartmoor     prison 784 

Davies,   District   Inspector 694 

Davies,   W.   M.,   Deputy    Inspector   General    re- 
signs     1056 

Davis,    Thomas 186 

poems   of 200,  253 

Deasey,    General 394 

orders   invasion    of   religious   services 395 

orders    Sinn    Feiners    bayoneted 396-98 

"Death   or  Victory   League,"  threats  by...  789,   791 

de   Broke,   Lord    Willougbby 143 

Defense  of  the  Realm  Act 747,   770 

Delehanty,    Father 504 

Delehunty,  Rev.  P.   II.,  imprisoned 1036-37 

Dempsey,     Frank,     Chairman     Mallow     Urban 

Council    893 

correspondence    seized 900-1 

repeated   raids    on    home 899,  902 

testimony    of 893-93  5 

Denikin,  aided  by  American   Red  Cross 611 


Devastation  Page 

Denmark    169,    174 

cost     of     government     less     than     Ireland's 

taxes    501 

Irish  consul   in 966 

Irish   trade   with   Copenhagen 967 

like    Ireland    economically 163 

Derry.     See  Londonderry. 

Derrygallon,  murder  of  O'Connell  and   Clancy 

at 766 

Deportation    of    elected    public    officials 20-22, 

289,  310,  471-721. 

of    Sinn    Fein    suspects 143,     269,    270-71, 

275,   542,    543,   631,    1053,    1054,    1055- 

wholesale 27,  29,    143,  212,   721,    1053,    1060 

Derham,   James,   arrested 93 

Derham,  John,   town  councillor  of  Balbriggan, 

shop    looted    and    burned 103 

testimony     92- 1 20 

torn   from   family 1 02-3 

Derham,   John,    of    Skerries,    home   raided    and 

burned   119 

Derham,   Michael,   brutally  beaten 107-9 

de   Roiste,   Liam 619 

Desart,   Countess   of 445,   447,    1036 

Destitution,    Red    Cross    not   relieving 575-76, 

611-12. 

from   burning    and    looting m-12,    515-16, 

570-72,  603,  918-19,  928. 
from  unemployment.  ...  589-90,  610,  656,   842-43, 
918. 

relief   of 112,    453,    550,    566-67,    569,    647, 

919,  926. 

Destruction  of   property 623 

business  premises.  .  .77-78,  85,  88,  no,  1 13-14, 
177,  370,  408,  520,  563,  587-88,  589,  686, 
722-23,  773,  812-13,  815,  823-24,  825-26, 
858-59,  862,  884,  885-86,  912,  924,  928, 
1068. 

compensation   denied 153,   585,  586,   588,   623 

creameries 37,   64,    153,   204,   251,   387,   406, 

519,  584-86,  623,  673,  680,  824,  913-14, 
944,  987,  994-96,   1015,   1058,   1060. 

factories 92,  94,   111-12,  587,  590,  618,  623, 

913-14,  987,   1060. 

financial    losses    from 47,     590-91,    832-34, 

921-22,    923-24,   944-45,   991-94,    996. 

homes 63,  77,  85,  88,  89,   107,   109-11,   125- 

26,  136,  371,  374,  383,  408-9,  411-12,  456, 
521-22,  562-63,  584,  602,  603,  604,  605, 
607,  618,  622-23,  686,  687,  710-n,  810-11, 
812-13,  815,  823-25,  826,  861-62,  883, 
911-12,  923,  928-29,   1057,   1058,   1059. 

ordered  as  reprisal 804-5,    1058-59 

killing     of     animals 59,     60,     456,     669,, 

672,   714. 

farms 338-39,  522,  583-84,  603,  698,  714-15. 

1058. 

public   buildings 35-36,    127,   408,    603,    605, 

618,  666,  815,  819-27,  829-30,  838,  878, 
910-11,    1001,    1015. 

suffering  from 1 11-12,  589-90,  609-10,  698, 

842-43,  91S-19. 

towns   and   cities 520,    812-13,   822-25,   827, 

828-43,  878,  879-81,  910-14,  1057,  1058, 
1060. 

universal   1 698,  7 1 5,  898 

windows i4-!5,    72~73>    83.    102,    112,    351, 

408,     520,    522,    588,    686,    696,    705,    707, 
710,   741,   812,822,   823-24,   848,   862,   884. 
912. 
See  also  Burnings,  Raids,  Reprisals. 

de  Valera,   Eamon 4,  5,  242,  430 

elected    from    three   constituencies 242 

elected   president 169,    243,   475 

ideals  supported  by  Irish  people 337 

in   jail 243,    275 

letter   to    President    Wilson 617 

solution  of  Irish  problem 105 1 

Devastation    by    Cromwell,    present    conditions 

worst  since 847 

by    Henry    VIII    and    Elizabeth 477-479 

in.  1798 232-33 

in    Bantrv 126 


1079 


Devlin  Page 

in     Limerick 136,   520 

in    Lisburn 520 

in   Tuam 604 

like     Belgium t8,   622 

throughout    Ireland 520,    698,   715 

worst  in  martial  law   zone 847-48 

Devlin,  Joseph 1  58,   571 

Devonshire    regiment 171 

disgraceful    acts    of 381-83 

Devoy,    John 187 

Dillon.    Dr.    Thomas 162 

Dillon's    Corners,    alleged    ambush 828,   838 

reprisals   without   justification 883 

Documents,   seditious 68,    205.    230.    505,    786, 

900,    1063. 

planted   to    incriminate 306-8,    623,   676 

Dollan.   Mrs.    Agnes 549.   620 

Dominic,   Father,   298,   324;    terrorized    and    im- 
prisoned      1037-38 

Dominican    Church,    window     destroyed 83 

Dominion  home  rule 1039 

acceptable    in    Ulster 178 

favored  by  Free   Liberals 540,    573 

hope    for    abandoned 546 

no   solution   for   Irish    problem 139 

not  in    1914   bill 146 

Southern   L'nionists   plead    for 155.   607 

Don,    Rt.    Hon.    O'Connor 489,   490 

Donegal.    County 420.    448,    458-59.    896 

burnings    in 898 

poverty    in 453-54 

Doon.    sacked   by    troops S24 

Doran,    Sir    Henrv 495-96 

Dowdall,    J.    C..." 155 

Dowse,    Bishop 640 

Down,    County,    won    by    LTnionists 760 

Doyle,    Michael    Francis,    of    counsel 718/f 

Doyle,   Mr.,  shot  and  left  to  die 1045 

Drangan,  captured  police  released  uninjured..    794 
Drinking     and      drunkenness      among      Crown 

forces 65,   82,  83,  87,  97-99,    100,   13S-36, 

162.  165,  367-68,  369,  399.  400-1,  410, 
566.  587.  622.  670,  675,  686.  687,  708. 
778,  793,  812,  814,  822,  853.  857,  859.  892, 
910,  914,  933,   1040,   1041-42,   1068. 

drink   and  extra   pay   for  raids 4i'8-i9 

murder   Canon    Magner 814,    1042 

drunken    officers    in    command 399-400 

run  amuck.  700-1;  terrorize  woman 1040 

in    Ireland   ceasing 250,  423 

Volunteers    suppress 695.    697,   708 

Government   bar   in  barracks 416,   426,   566, 

670-71. 
Driscoll,      Sergeant,     attempts     to     plant     evi- 
dence     690-9 1 

raids    Millwood    home 703 

Drogheda 109.    112,    116,    138 

Drumshambo.   partially   sacked   by   police 824 

Drumsna,  captured  military  released  uninjured.    794 
Du    Bois,    Dr.    L.    Paul,    excerpt    from    Contem- 
porary  Ireland 1042-44 

Dublin 92.    116,    138,   141,    145,   151,    168,   204, 

239.   429- 

Bachelor's  Walk   massacre 145 

Bridewell    273 

British  spies  shot 260 

captured  soldiers   released  uninjured 794,   795 

Castle    166-67.  430 

decrees    repudiated 973 

evidence  of  espionage  obtained   from 259 

false  reports  from.  .33.  36.  365,  996,  1064.  1067 

interferes   with   newspaper   reporters 601-2 

officials   indicted    for   murder 362-63,  365 

orders    escaped    prisoners    shot 392 

orders  invasion  of  religious  services 426 

Protestant    rector    protests    to 381 

Chamber    of    Commerce 158 

Charitv    Organization    Society 455 

City   Hall,    98 1  ;    raided 736 

Convents    raided    and    terrorized 1037 

Councillors   arrested   and    imprisoned 736 

Crime,    absence    of 461 

Croke  Park  massacre 300,   59311,   863-67 


Economic  Page 

Easter   uprising 143,   212-13,   215-17,    220 

Declaration    of    independence 241-42 

E.vprcss    ; 365 

fairs   and  markets   suppressed 388 

Freeman's    Journal 'nj 

editors    imprisoned 786,     1044 

suppressed     47,   787 

High   Court   of  Ireland 761-62 

£"?"•  970 

hold-ups     674. 

houses    destroyed 823 

in  state  of  siege 47^ 

King   Street  atrocities 1053 

Lord    Mayor 43  ;_470 

Mansion    House 243,    430-31,    980 

Martial    law    542-1027 

Metropolitan  Police  disarm 165-66,  669,  676, 

733,    79S. 

safety    of (,09,    7?j-H 

Minister    &    Leinster     Bank    robbed    by    mili- 
tary     '.  .  .  .  492-93 

National     Library 473 

National    University 458 

one-room    tenements 451-53 

Phoenix    Park    training   depot 37^-77,    391- 

395-  407.  421. 
police,  unarmed,  protected  by  Sinn  Fein ..  165-66, 
609,  619,  71,2. 

population   451-52 

Poverty   45i~53.   461 

raids 49.    430-31.    592,   736,   863 

Republic    declared 241-42 

Richmond    barracks 258,    269,   270 

St.   Brigid's  school 333~34 

slums 145,    429-3°.    451-53-    461.    474,    1004 

streets   of,   blocked    and   searched 49 

suffering    in 591 

terrorism    in 49,   619 

tuberculosis     hospitals 168 

University    962,   980 

wag,es    ••■.•: 4-'9-    438-39,   450 

working   girls 429-30 

Duffy,   Miss   Gavan,    school   of 333 

Dum-dum  bullet  fired   at    Miss    MacSwiney .  .  .  .      80 

Dun   Laoghaire,   non-sectarian   school 1033 

See  also   Kingstown. 
Dundalk,    274:    captured    police    released    unin- 
jured, 794:    houses    wrecked    by    military...    824 
Dunford,   Colonel,  captured  and   released  unin- 
jured        795 

1  hingloe    429 

Dunmore    410.  761 

Dwyer,   member   of  Thurles  arbitration  court..      34 
murder   of   by    police 32 


East,    Colonel,     pledge    to     mayor     and    bishop 

broken    217-18 

Easter  uprising 143.    159,    222,   269,   313,   352, 

628,    630,    631.    636. 

arrests    and    imprisonments 143,    222,     631, 

1053. 

awakens  England  to  Irish  crisis 54! 

begins  war   for  independence 212-13.   354 

conflict   of  orders 215-17 

Dublin     shelled 212 

execution  of  leaders 16111,  220,  242,  467-68, 

541-42.   546.  614,   1053. 

cheered  by   House  of   Commons 467-69 

makes    Ireland    Republican 1 6 1  ;r .    222-23, 

467,-69,    541-42,    546. 

in    Cork 216-19 

lives   lost 209 

precipitated   by   industrial  conditions 1004 

spies     258-59 

Economic    blockade 579-84 

conditions    5,   451 

life    of    Ireland 1 38-40 

effect    of    terrorism    on 38-40.     116-17. 

655-56. 

plot  to  destroy 89,    579-S9,   617-18 

self-supporting 163-64,    236-38,    487-90, 

490-91,    500-1,    729-30,    945-52,    962,   972 


1080 


Edinburgh  .  ,  .    Page 
motives  underlie  England's  opposition  to   in- 
dependence  442-44,   457-58,   944-45,  990 

Edinburgh,    demonstrations    in 532 

Education,    agricultural 169 

Belfast,    Catholic   schools 551-52 

inadequate   schools 433,   440-42,    551 

semi-literates  manipulated  by  politicians.  550-52 
unschooled  children  become  cheap  labor. 552-53 

Christian   Brothers  schools 8,    195,  280,   396 

coeducational    school 1033 

disestablishment     fund i93~94 

Gaelic    College 1032 

Gaelic    League    renationalizes    people 201-3, 

1031-32. 

hedge    schools J  9- 

Irish    language    taught 850 

Irish  summer   colleges   destroyed 847 

literacy,  effect   of  poverty   on 454-55 

non-sectarian    school 1033 

nuns'   schools 195,   220-22 

British  system,  budget  less  than  for  police..    951 

designed  to   denationalize ioi-93>   221 

National   Education    Act 191-93.    455-   45$ 

differs    from    English    Act 552 

rejected    by    Archbishop    MacIIale 193 

"national"    schools 192 

plan   of 19 1 

private    schools 193 

secondary    schools 193-96 

anglicizing  influence  of 194-96,   220-22 

whiskey  tax   helps   finance i93~94 

Republican    educational    program 332~34 

An   Dail   to   finance 334 

Minister  of  Education 333,   972 

Padraic    Pearse's     school 33 

schools  for  girls  founded 333-34 

schools,    not    attacked 847 

not  used  to  propagandize 334 

Ulster   school    issue 433,    440-42 

universities 280,    444,    454,    458.    485.    7[9, 

722,   799,  962. 

Edward,    King 64,   203 

Egar,   John,   affidavit 75 5-56 

Egypt,   atrocities   in 239 

Elections,    analysis   of   vote 154 

county  council   (1920),  Republicans  win.. 154-56, 
225,  244,  475.  724.    1014- 

local  government  (1920) 7,  8,   11-13,  29-30, 

93-94,^24,244-45,475,  546,  550,  724,  894. 

machinery    of 719-20 

Republican    victory 154-56,    244-45,    475. 

546,   721,   724,    1014,    1055-56. 

parliamentary    (1918) 223-24,    354,    474-75, 

483,    544-45- 
Coalition  Government  adopts    Carsonism.  544-45 
forty    imprisoned    Republican    leaders 

elected    471,   483-84 

Republican    victory 155-56,    223-25, 

242,   474-76,    545-47.    624,    723,    1054. 

pledge   of    Republican   candidates 224 

proportional  representation 12,  225,  475-76, 

725-6,    894- 

prove  people  want  Republic 154-56,  223-24, 

244-45.    352,   747-76. 

Unionists   lose   ground   in    Belfast 225, 

475-76.   ;jo,    555- 

in   Ulster 154,   156",   223-24,   555,    1056 

Elizabeth,  Queen. 198,  49 1 

extirpation    oolicy    of 478 

Ellis.   Edith   M 518 

Emigrant  ship  with   Sinn   Feiners^  sunk 67 

Emigration,   caused  by  "cow  lots" 448-49,   936 

from    Ulster 940 

object  of  destruction   of   Irish  industries....     65. 

613,  623. 
of  young  men.  prevented  by  development  of 

industries    448,    5«4 

restricted  by   Dail    Eireann 868-69,   974-75 

wanted  by    Lord    French 65,   499, 

579,  "623,    975. 
Emly,   captured   soldiers    and    police   released..    795 

creamery    wrecked 824 

shot   up   by    police 824 


English  Page 

Emmet,    Robert 186,    1047 

Employment    94,   95,    254 

Belfast    unemployment    strike 175-76 

child   labor 455-58,    552-53 

destruction  to  deprive  people  of 65,  m-12, 

339,   581,    589,   842,   915-16. 

development  of   industries   gives 204,   584 

hiring    fairs 454 

lack    of 451 

causes    65,   94-95,    m-12,    157,    174, 

176,  254,  339,  406,  448-50,  555-57,  58i, 
585,    589-90,   655-56,   842,   915-16,    1028. 

suffering  from 589-90,  610,  656, 

842-43,    918-19. 
women's  wages  and   working  conditions.  .429-30, 
447,   450-1,    553,    561,    565. 
England: 

abuse    of    power 486 

authority  in   Ireland,   an   usurpation 186 

based    on    force 166-67,    520,    973 

•    ceasing    524,   661,   973 

Bank    of,    drains    Irish    deposits 957-58 

borrowing    from    America 213,    240,    897-98 

cheap  meat  supply  from  Ireland 449,  938 

clever  nation 202 

colonies,   France  aids  revolutions   in 214 

courses    open    to 523,    624-25 

creates   Ulster   difficulty 230-31,   251-52, 

476.   616,  621. 

destroys    Irish    industries 229-30, 

445-47,  449,  466-67,  481-83,  486,  579-89, 
590,  617-18,  623,  655-56,  939-40,  979, 
981-82,    984-90,    991-92,    1067-68. 

difficulty   of,    Ireland's   opportunity 214 

economic   exploitation    of   Ireland 266,    486, 

936-37,    946-49,    990. 

interests   in   Ireland 443-44,   939 

motives  underlie  opposition  to  Republic. 442-44, 
457-58,    944-45,    990. 

encourages  Irish   emigration 65,   237, 

499,    579,    613,   623,   975. 

false   pretense   of   self-determination 850 

greed 466 

fosters    Ulster    religious    prejudices 230-31, 

251-52,   476,   616,   621,    1031,    1034-35. 

infidelity  to  public   engagements 486,    522-23 

converts      Home      Rule      Party     to      Sinn 

Fein   523-24 

Ireland's    best    customer 105 1 

Land  Acts  money  not  a  gift 240-41 

wrested  from 238-40,   942 

liberal    groups    in 5 

migration  of  Irish   labor  to 448-49 

misgovernment    in    Ireland 385,    486, 

499,  623,   847,  946-5.2,  956. 

oppression 215 

plans    massacre 89 

right   to    rule    Ireland    forfeited 486-87 

taxes  drained  from  Ireland 163-64,  236-38, 

486,    487-90,    491.,    500-1,  .729-30,    945-56. 

trade,    monopoly    on    Irish 966 

broken    by    Republican    Government ...  .966-67 

violation    of   rules   of    war   by 260-62, 

486,  487-90.  766,   786,  808,   1059. 

war   against   Ireland,   cost   of 591,   897-9S 

state  of 374,   524,   621-22,   808 

admitted   by   Lloyd   George 202,   595 

two   lines   of   conflict 979 

war   with    France 214 

witnesses    summoned    from . 4,    53° 

English    aggression    compels    resistance 352-55. 

356-58. 

arguments    against    Irish    independence 236, 

251.  255,  457-58.  608-9,  613,  616-17,   1051. 
aristocrats   support   Ulster   rebellion ....  143,    205, 
540-41. 

atrocities    209-10.    232-33,   ,^7,   770- 

7'.   785,   796,   822-23.      See  also   Atro- 

attitude   toward    Irish 127,    146,    170-71, 

399,  47i.  521-22,  532,  59i,  593,  595.  606, 
612-13,  821,   996. 

authorities  prevent  transport  of  food 339-40 


1081 


English  Page 

seize    MacSvviuey    body    from    family ..  .328-29 

Board    of   Trade '. 965 

capitalism    fights    Iri^h    cooperatives.  .  944-45,    990 
churches,     attitude     toward     Ulster     persecu- 
tions      568-69 

clearances    in    Ireland 477.     1009 

Commission    proves    financial    competency    of 

Ireland    236-37,  487-90,  491,  945"46 

conquest    i85 

debt   saddled   on   Ireland   by    fraud 235-36 

gold    213 

insurance    companies    refuse    payment 588, 

534-35,    859,    915. 

jails 22,  24-25,  27,  93,    132,    160,   238,  250, 

258,    269,    270,    275,    279,    330,    392,    469, 
470-71,  473,  631,  784,  1036,  1038,  1039. 

jails    22,  29,   ?i,  39,  212,  631 

j  tinkers    143 

newspapers,    liberal    press    prints   truth   about 

Ireland    533-34,    615 

Northcliffe    .press 615 

tell   only   of   Irish   violence 547-48, 

573-    595.    601,    794. 
people  deceived  about  Ireland.. 90,   532,  793,  995 
meetings  to  inform.. 532,  537,  548,  572,  576-77 

uninformed    about    Ireland 547-48, 

573-    576-77.    595.    596. 
plantations,   1009;  in  Ulster ...  1 79.  336.  477,   616 
policy   in    Ireland.      See   British   policy. 

prejudice    against    Irish 613-14 

propaganda    yy,  202,   209-10.  263,  295, 

306,    307-S,    338,    zyz,    603,    793-94.    1034, 
I0.35- 

apologist    deliberately    insincere 175 

British-controlled   cables   and   press 784-86 

Carson     subsidized 205 

countered    203,    314-15 

incites    Crown    forces   to    violence 591, 

592,  596,  624. 
miscalculates     effects    of     MacSwiney     im- 
prisonment     312-13,    31S 

prevarications    336,   586,    593:1,    624,   626, 

746,    758,    773,    825-26,    829-30,    839,    841, 
1063. 

7 he    Weekly   Summary 592 

unscrupulous    1  044)1 

pound,     depreciation    of 958-59 

public   buildings,    Ireland    taxed    for 948-49 

secret   service.      See   British   secret   service. 
soldiers,    hatred   for   Americans.  ...  686,   872,    875 

solution   for   Irish   problem 17,    141,   474,    598 

sympathizer,    reprisal    against 588 

usurpation     287,    309 

wool    230 

veomen,    atrocities    of 232-33 

English,    Rev.    M.    M.,   brothers    fired   upon    by 

Black-and-Tans    57 

home   raided 54-57 

invited  solely  by   Commission 69 

life    threatened 57 

property    searched    and    confiscated 55-57 

testimony    of 6,    53-69 

English,    Patrick,    arrested 56-57 

Englishmen,   ashamed    of   Government's   deeds.    524 

Ennis     591 

captured    military    released 795 

Enniskillen     76 

Ennistymon    579,    62 1 

houses   burned 602 

murder  and   terrorism   in 520-21 

sacked    520,    824 

town    hall    burned 603 

"Escape  from  arrest"  an  excuse  for  murder..  61, 
160,  373-74,  392.  766-67,  688-89,  768-69, 
7-3,   811,  813,    1042,   1045,   1064-67. 

Essex,    Earl    of 478 

Everard,    Sir    Nugent 445 

Evidence,    false,    manufactured 306-8,    586, 

623,   676,   690-91,   744,   773. 

Exhibit    1 357",     1053-58 

Exhibit    II 60011,    1059-60 

Exhibit    III 604U,    1 060-63 

Exhibit    IV.,.,., 1 04611,     1064-68 


Flood  Page 

EXi?e,"efd  ^vorkers '57.     >  74-75.     176,     180 

Relief    Committee 550,    1049-50 

administration   of   relief ...  566-67,    569,    571-72 

shipyard    riots 174-76,'   556-57 

basis  political,  not  religious.  .  555-56,  567,   1050 

Extremists,    Sinn    Fein 14  x  (    I47     3Ig 

,       .    336,    365,    523,    596. 

elections     disprove 155 

false    insinuation 1  72, '  337. '  641*    660 


Factories    burned I060 

Balbriggan    92,   94,'  623',    987 

brings     destitution 111-12,     915-16 

Limerick    tannery 587 

Mallow   milk  condensery 590/  618 

913-14.    915,    987- 


mh 


umane    consequences 590-9 1 


Fahey,    Constable,   murdered    after    resigning.  .    383 

Fairs   and   markets   suppressed 387-88,   424, 

.         543,  580,  715,   1054,   1055.   1060. 
Famine    Irish......... .........  1 99,   454.   937,   940 

artificially  made  by   England.  .  187,  477-78,   480 

deaths    from 187,    478 

depopulation    by 498 

of    milk    in    cities 406     59 1 

Farms   burned 338-39,    522,    ^83-84, 

603,    714-15,    1058. 

destroyed     gg8 

Farmers,    deciding    factor    in    Ireland 1050 

discrimination    against 444-45 

poverty    of      453-54,    495~97 

prosperity    of 239>    943_44 

limited     4-4?     458 

destroyed 580-81    583-84.    590,    698,   936-37 

Protestant  and   Catholic  injured  alike... 466     580 
suffer   from  burning  of  hay  ricks.  ...  580,   583-84 

destruction    of   creameries 64,    339, 

59.0-91,    927,    944-45- 
See  Agriculture  and  Creameries, 

Farrer,     Lord 4gg 

Fawsitt,   J.    L.,    Irish    Consul-General 201,   204, 

229,    241,    892,    935. 

,       testimony    of 935-978 

366 


Feakle 

Feis  suppressed 398-99, '401- 

Fenians ,87.    ,89,    238 

Fenian    Uprising 184,    187-88,    237 

Ferguson,    H.    C 455 

Fermanagh,    County 76,    555,    574 

Fermoy    260,   380,   899'    996 

sacked    by    military 823 

soldiers    from   burn    Mallow 618, '909-14 

Fianna  Fail,   Terence   MacSwiney   starts.  ..  .210-1 1 

Fieries   456 

Figgis,    Darrell 77,    1 72 

arrested   585 

murder    attempted 982-83 

on   the   run 984 

_  secretary    Industrial    Inquiry    Commission. 980-85 

Financial    independence    of    Ireland 163-64, 

236-38,   4S7-90,    490-91,    962,   972. 
taxes  exceed   upkeep   of   European   states....    501 

loss   from  damage  by   Crown    forces 47, 

590,  832-34,  921-22,   923-24.   944-45,   991- 
,  94,  996. 
Relations  Commission.  .237,   487-90,   491,   945-46 

Finland     i40,     i46 

Finlay,    Rev.    Thomas 996 

Finnegan,    Constable,   shot 28 

Firearms.      See  Arms  and  Ammunition. 

Fisheries    95,    115,    244,    491,    972 

cooperative  societies   among   fishermen 972 

inquiry    into 980,    982 

Republican    Fisheries    Department 972 

Fitzgerald,    Admiral 90 

hunger    striker,    death    of 374,    802 

funeral    of    restricted 374-75,    802-3 

Lord   Edward 1S6 

Flaherty,    John,    brutally    beaten 514 

Flanders    i7o 

Thurles   destroyed   worse   than 58 

Flood,  Henry,   Protestant  patriot,  ,228,   230-31,   334 


1082 


Flower  Page 

Flower,    Assistant    Inspector    General,    resigna- 
tion   of 1056 

Foley,     Constable,     shot 852 

Folk,    Hon.    Joseph    W 3" 

Food,  available   for  those  with   money 9-6 

Committee,    Irish 980 

cost    of 926 

destruction    by    Crown    forces 51' 

causes    critical   shortage 338-39,    406, 

580-81,    590-91. 

distribution,   arranged   by   Irish    Labor 1025 

chief     difficulty 610-11 

difficult    to    secure    in    cities 38,    406, 

582-83,    591.    715- 
English    prevent    transport    to    cities.  .  .339-40, 
582-83. 

export   prohibited    by    Republic 239-40,    974 

starvation     diet 45J-53 

black   bread   and   no    milk    for   babies.  ..  .405-6 

people    facing 71  5 

terrorism   enhances   price   of 38 

makes   difficult    to    get 38,    "6 

Force,    British    authority    maintained    by 141, 

166-67,    474,    1053-59- 
Forde,   Cornelius,   home   and   store   burned....  911, 
927-29. 

statement    of 92» 

France    ix,   213,   214,   231-32, 

240,    313.    333,    57i.    624,    851. 

Irish    consuls   in 966 

trade     with 967 

Francis,   Rev.   R 716 

Free    Liberals 573.    601 

Freedom,    Ireland's   continuous    fight    for ...  185-87, 
212—13,   286. 
Easter  Week  first  battle  in  present  war.  .  212-13. 
541. 

Fenian    Uprising    (1867) .'187-88 

Insurrection    of    1798 186 

horrors    repeated    today 233 

provoked    by    English    atrocities 232 

Land    Wars 237,    1009-10 

Led  by  Protestants.  .  186-87,  43*,   432,   460,   1037 

Repeal     Movement 1 86 

Republican   Movement    (1848).... 186,    188 

right  to  secure  aid  from  England's  enemies. 213- 
14.  231-32. 

Tithe    Wars 186 

of   press   and   speech   suppressed.      See   Sup- 
pressions. 

terrorism    intensifies    determination    for 337, 

652,  661,   712,   851,  919-20,   1056. 
See  also  Independence. 

Freeman's  Journal   115 

editors    arrested    and    imprisoned 786,    1044 

penalized   for   printing   truth 787,    1044" 

suppressed    47,    787 

French,    Lord 64m,     1055 

charged   as   an    "Irish   service" 948,   949 

correspondence     captured 258 

ignores  jury  summons 365,   659,   660 

indicted  for  murder 80,   363 

Irish   "poisonous  insects" 47 1,   99° 

resigns    from   army   to   support    Ulster   rebel- 
lion     145 

says  too  many  young  men  in   Ireland 65, 

499,    579,    623,   975,   990. 

Fright   and   exposure,    deaths   from 117, 

742-3,    917-18. 

Frightfulness,    policy     of 1056-58 

Frongach    prison 63 1 

Froude,    J.    A 235 

Fuel    industry    suppressed 466-67 

Funerals,  armed  military  dominate. 374,   802-3,   881 

multiple,    of    outrage    victims.... 881-82 

restrictions   on 117,   374-75,    512,   802-3 

Furlong,   Lily,  shot  by   Black-and-Tans.  .403-4,  405 
Furnas,    Paul    J.,    testimony    of 517-29 


G  Division. 257-59,   273.   658,   676 

See  also  Secret  Service,  British,  and  Spies. 
Gaelic    college ..,,,,,,,..,,,,,,,.,,,, 1032 


Germany  Page 

Ireland,  religious  persecutions  unknown.  .252-54, 
501-2,  608,  640,  920-21. 

language    192,    194,    197,  201-3,   469,   779 

spoken    202,    276-77,    1043-44,    ^49 

used   in   Dail    Eireann 243 

League    197,    212.    344,    629,    719 

non-sectarian   and   non-political 203,    1030 

overcomes   religious    prejudices.  .  1029-34,    1035 
renationalizes  people.  .201-3,    1031-32,   1043-44 

movement    1 042-44 

Gaelicizing     Irish     Protestantism 1033 

Gallagher.    Constable,   assaults   American 790 

Gait  and   Wilbur,   attest  of  transcript xi 

Galvin,   Daniel,    ex-Constable 380,    381,    400 

testimony    of 421-27 

Galway    83,   151,   171,   247,  408,  461,   506 

Archbishop    of 408 

barracks,   Government   bar   in 416-17 

Bay,  advantages  for  American  trade 963 

denuded   of  shipping 491-92 

civil  inquests   suppressed 85,    603,   769-70 

Connacht    Tribune 715-16 

continuous    manhunt 863 

county    council,    members    arrested 356 

Easter   uprising   in 143,    213 

Express  destroyed 85,    134,   603,   825,  862 

farmers,    poor :- 459 

hay   ricks    burned 583-84 

houses  burned  and  destroyed 85,    133, 

411-12,   413.   854,   861-62. 

Krumm,    Black-and-Tan,    killing    of 83-84, 

'30-31,    161-62,  410-11,   603. 

Land  trouble 1006,    1008,    1009,    ioio 

Looting    -.511,    587 

murders     130-35,    603 

Father    Griffin 162,    715-16 

James  Quirk.... 85,   133,   162,  413,  603,  853-54 
City  Councillor  Walsh.  ...  509-1 1,   603,   859-61 

population     418 

raids    82-83,    r30-3i,   4iI-I3>   4'8,   507,   602 

reprisals    84-85,    130-35,    603 

peaceful   conditions   prior   to 852-53 

shot   up   and   bombed 410-11,    824,    825 

__  women     assaulted 855 

Geddes,    Sir   Eric,   ties   up   Irish   railways 89, 

582,    1025. 

Geddis,  Deputy  Inspector,  resigns 384 

Geneva   Red   Cross 575,    612 

George  I,  King 226-27 

George    III 226 

George  VI,  picture  destroyed 170 

prohibits  arrest  of  Carson 144 

signs    Home    Rule    Bill 146 

George,    Lloyd 90,    160,    172, 

256,   355,   445-46,    596,   966. 

admits   state   of   war    in   Ireland 202,    595 

called   upon    to   stop   murders 766 

condones   killings   and    reprisals 689 

convention  called  by 143,  1054 

crimes    of    agents 1058 

elected    354 

indicted   for   murder So,   363,   767-68 

policy   supported   by   Parliament 601 

refuses   to   save   MacSwiney's   life 319 

tactics   repeat   horrors   of    1798 322 

unemployment  insurance  act   of 918-19 

untruthful    359,    624,    641,    758 

German    atrocities 327,    827 

exceeded    by    British    in    Ireland ix,    209, 

770-71,    785,    796,    822-23. 

stories    of 209,    785 

gold    213-14,    1049 

invasion    571 

Kaiser,    Carson   threatens   to   invite 204,   214 

to    be    hung 547 

plot    invented 143,    162,    243-471 

prisoners     631 

reporters  attend   Belfast   parade 144 

soldiers    256-57 

submarines    617 

Germany,  American   Red  Cross  unable  to  work 

in    611 

arms  imported  from,  bv  South  Ireland,  J45,  175 


I  on: 


Ghetto  Page 

by    Ulster 144-    1 75,    54i 

declaration    of    war    against 145 

relations    with    Sinn    Fein 175,    J14.    646 

right   of  Republic  to  secure   aid    from 213-14, 

231-32. 

suppositious    American     union    with 235 

to    pay   war   costs 547 

Ghetto,    Jewish,    in    Cork 252 

Republican,   in    Belfast 568-69 

Gibbons,    John,     funeral     restricted 1  17-18 

murdered    105-6,     1058 

Ginnell,   Hon.    Laurence 219-20,    271 

evidence  not  to  be  used  against   Republic. 463-64 
repeated  imprisonments. 469-71,  472-73,  489,  49° 

testimony    of 462-505 

(".iris,  assaulted 750,   75 '•   810-11 

arrested     .  .  . | 744 

cutting   of   hair   as    reprisal ...  600-1 .    810-11,    855 

driven   from    homes 8 1 0-1 1 

held    up    by    Black-and-Tans 381,    38-',    712, 

776,  887-88. 

rape    attempted 749~5 ' 

robbed    7  1  --  ■  3 

shot    403-4.  405,   601,  669,   71.3-   810,   880 

terrorized    710,   810-11,    865,    1063 

wages,    Belfast 78,    157,    439 

Dublin   ■ 4-9-30 

starvation    447,    450-1 

working    conditions,    Belfast 78,    440 

Gladstone,   W.    E 190.   235,   238 

( ilanbane,    burned 456 

Glasgow     485 

housing    conditions    compared 451-52 

Gleason,    Arthur    L 511 

Glengariff    89,    43 1 

shot  up  by  police 813,  824 

Glynn,   Miss,   shot   by   police 810 

Good,    Mr 177 

i75 
443 
199 


History    of    Lister 

Gordon,    Dawson 434,    440, 

Gore,     Senator 

Gort    

murder   of   Mrs.    Ellen    Quinn   at , 

809-10,    1040.    1058. 

Grady,   Miss,   assaulted 

Grants,    local    government,    decreased    by    Par 

liament     

Republican    administration    functioning   with- 
out     44.    7^7,    730.    955,    1016, 

taken    from    Irish    taxes 725, 

withheld     168,    586,     ioi 

effect   on    disabled   soldiers 758-59. 

education     433, 

hospitals    ;.nd    asylums ....  168,    727-28, 

from    Republican    counties    only 

to    paralyze    self-government 

726-27.    730-31,    979- 
See  also  Local   Government. 

Grattan,    Henry.  •••_•• -->>,    230-31. 

opposes    Act    of    Union 

Grattan's    Parliament 196-97,    227, 

disabilities     32 

prosperity   of    Ireland   under 22 

Gray,    Major,   searches   American  citizen 5 

Greece    476. 

Green,    Mrs.    Alice    Stopford 

Green,    Lieutenant,   tortures    prisoners 

Greenwood,  Sir  Hamar 160,  250,  505,  538, 


admits  murders  sanctioned  by  Government.  . 

admits  Irish  courts   functioning 

crimes    of    agents 

falsely    repudiates    witnesses 

ingenuity  of  evasion 842,   987-88, 

prevaricates    about    beating   of   trades    union 

ists    

about  burning   of   Cork Sj 

829-30,    839,    841. 

Cork    Corporation    protests    against 

about  burning  of  creameries.  .  152-54,   586 

about   thefts   by    raiders 

salary    taxed    upon    Ireland 

threatens    to    cancel    pensions 

Grey,   Sir    Edward 209, 


948 


i-17 
760 
7-7 

[016 

760 
168. 


2  34 

-36 

228 

8-29 

S-29 

6-57 

501 

229 


'51 
154 

1058 
626 

[057 


1063 
5-26. 


746 


Hogan  Page 

Griffin,     Father 162-63 

kidnapped    161,    800 

murdered    16211,    715-16,    799-800 

Griffin,    Miss    Geraldine 1032 

Griffith,  Arthur.. 201,  203.   227.  337,  344,   505.    1005 

character    and    ability 440 

elected    vice-president    of    Republic 243 

founds    Sinn    Fein 196-97 

imprisoned    260-61,    505 

policy     196-97,     20  1 

Protestant     leader 432 

states  Ireland's  aims 1 05  1 

states    number    of    troops    in    Ireland 148 

_  unmasks    British    spy 249-50 

Griffiths,  Dr 291,  202.   204,  2<>7,  313.  323.  325 

Guilfoil,   P.  J.,   house   burned .....3*66,   370-71 

family    escape    unclad 370-71 

testimony    of 366-76 

witnesses   beating    of    priest 368-69 

Gun-running  at    Howth 145,    206   7 

at    Larne 145.    175,    206-7,    54'.    607 

shows   England's  bias 143-5,  206-7 

II 

Ilackctt,   Francis,  testimony  of 6,    137-74 

Hague   Conventions   violated    by    England....'.  261, 
467,    486-87.    1059. 

J  [ales,    Thomas,    affidavit    of 780-83 

imprisonment    783-84,    786 

torture    of .' .  .  780-84 

Hamburg,    arms    imported    from 206 

Hamilton,    Sir    Robert    G.    C 489 

Hampshire     Regiment,     raids     and     robs     Citv 

_  Hall    ".755 

Hands   in    pockets,    prohibited 789.    Hy2-y'^ 

persons  with   to  be  shot 66 

Dr.    Hickey    shot 86  ^ 

Hannon,   Rev.   C 1061,    1062 

Hannley,    Patrick,    murdered    in    bed 8m 

Hardy,    criminal    sent    as   'spy 249-50 

Harmon,   Canon,   of    .Mallow 908-9 

Harlan   and   Wolff 443 

Harte,   tortured  to   insanity 780-84 

Hartnett,  Mr.,  murdered  by   Black-and-Tans...    668 

Mrs.,   clubbed    by    Black-and-Tans 669-70 

Hartney  house  destroyed 64 

Hastings    267 

Haulbowline    Island,    dangerous    Black-and-Tan 

transferred    708 

Hay   ricks  burned.  ...  1  1  o,   371,    374.    383,   456,    520. 
562-63,    580-1,    583-84.    590,    714-15. 

effect  on   agricultural    prosperity 580.    590 

importation    of    fodder   to    replace    pro- 
hibited     580-81 

Hayes,   Eamon,   deported    from   Thurles 20 

Hcadford     506-7,    510.    514-15 

Ilealey,   murdered  by    Black-and-Tans.  .'.....'..    668 

Health,    effect    of   poverty    on 454 

effect   of  raids   and   terrorism    on [9,    38-39, 

135,    370,    5-24,    628-29,    632-33. 

Hegarty,    William,    murder    of 812 

Henderson,    Arthur,    on    Labor    Commission    to 

Ireland     19.     1021 

Cork    corporation    protests    to 839 

opposes    Government    policy    in    Ireland 601 

tells  of  threats  against   Thurles 34 

Hennissey,   home   burned 126 

Henry    VIII 185 

destroys    Irish    industries 481-S2 

extirpation     policy     of 477-7S 

Herford,    Miss    Amy 620 

Hessians    ' 227,    232-7,:, 

Hibernians,   Ancient   Order   of 208 

Hickey,   Dr.,   flogged   and   shot 863 

Higginson,   General    II.    A.,   seizes    Republicans 

as     hostages 803 

Higson,   D1-...2S9,   293,   312,   313-14.   324.   325,    326 

Hildegard,    commander    in    Galwav 171 

Hiring   fairs " 454,    458 

Hobson,   J.    A 538 

Hoffman,   murdered   by   Black-and-Tans 456 

Hogan,    Miss,    assaulted 


Mr.,  killed  in  Crokc   Park  massac 


.S64,   866 


1084. 


Hold-ups  Page 

Hold-ups,   daily,   in   Cork 871-74,   884-85,   887 

of  girls 381-82,  712,  77b,  887-88 

of  merchants 511,  934 

on  country  roads.  ...  59,  70-71 .  679.  681,  682,  987 

Holland,  Irish  trade  with 967 

Hollinshed,    Raphael,    historian 478 

Holy   Cross,  murder  of  Dwyer  at 32 

Holyhead 303.  328 

Home   Rule 211,    237,   414,   456,   486,   607 

Bill  of  1912 204-5,  206 

of  1914 r44,  UO,  540,  596 

inducement  to   support   war 210 

signed    by    King 146 

suspended    1 46-47 

of    1920 146.    555.  966 

protects    Ulster    capitalists 555.   S74 

despaired    of 146,    546-47 

English    arguments    against 236,  433 

inadequate     1 89,   608 

movement    for 185,   188 

Party    obliterated 456,522-23 

(See  Redmonditcs  and  Nationalists.) 

policy    of    Government    unpopular 540,   845 

Ulster    rebels    against T43-44,     146,    204-5, 

206,   540-41. 
shifts  position  upon....  545,  549,  554.   574,  845 
unacceptable  to  Irish  people.  ..147,  845,  846,  966 
See  also  Dominion  Home  Rule  and   Redmond, 
John. 

Honan,   Mrs.,   affidavit 817-18 

home     raided 638,   817 

Hosiery    factory    burned 92 

Horgan,    Timothy,    affidavit 747~48 

shop   and   home    raided   and   robbed 747-48 

Horgan,    Bridget,    affidavit 748-49 

raided,  robbed  and  terrorized .    749 

Hospital,    town,    military    raid    American    citi- 
zens     54-56 

murder  of  Patrick  Lynch  in 60-61,   160,   769 

shot  up 62 

Hospitals,    commandeered   for    barracks ...  .41,    126 

effect   of   withdrawal    of   grants    on 727-2%, 

758-60. 

Hostages,  no  comparison   with  Belgium 827 

Republican   leaders   seized   as 803 

House    of    Commons 89,    151,    189,    202,    219, 

220,  225,  259,  325,  361,  443,  466,  467, 
537,  601,  793,  922    931. 

cheers   execution   of   Irish   leaders 4&7-D9 

discriminates   against   Irish   speakers 467 

Irish  members  refuse  to  sit  in 204,  465,  545 

House   of   Lords 144,    U7,    153,   443,   607 

Home    Rule    bill   passed   over 146 

members    lead    Ulster    Rebellion 144 

Veto    Bill r47 

Houses  burned  and  destroyed 63,   77,   85,  88, 

89,  107,  109-11,  119,  125-26,  136,  371, 
374,  383.  408-9,  411-12,  456,  521-22, 
562-63,  584,  602,  603,  604,  605,  607,  618. 
622-23,  686,  687,  710-11,  810-11,  812-13, 
815,  823-25,  826,  861-62.  883,  911-12, 
923,  928-29,    1057,   1058,    1059. 

commandeered 39,     41.     62,     66, 

72,   78,    126,    148,    982,    1057. 
Howe,   Dr.    Frederic   C   member   of   the   Com- 
mission         vit 

acting  chairman 3" 

Howth,   arms   imported 145,   206-7 

Hue  and  Cry,   The 392 

Hunchback  murdered. 125 

tortured     778-79 

Hungary    169.   454 

Hunger    Strikes,    effect   of 284ff,   694 

Mountjoy    prison 93,    160,  273 

religious    demonstration    at 1036 

won  by  labor  strike 160,    1023 

of  Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney.  .272,  284,  290j  291 

of   Laurence    Oinnell 47" 

Wormwood    Scrubbs    prison 24-25,    27 

Hunger   strikers,    deaths   of 291,   681 

funerals    restricted .374-75-    802-3 


Industries  Page 

mark    of    respect    forbidden 681-82 

released    27,    1023 

thrown   into  'punishment   cell" 24-25 

to  die   in  jail 66,    1057 

Hunter,    W.    A.,    M.    P 489,    490 

Hutchinson,    Hely 228 

Hutson,    Captain,    affidavit 819-20 

Hyde,  Dr.  Douglas,  President  Gaelic  League..  1029- 
30,   1032. 

I 

Immunity  given  Crown  forces.. 67,  380,   386,   1057 

abolition  of  coroners'  inquests  gives.  ..  .770,   776 

Imprisonment  without  trial 21,   143,  469,  471, 

720-21,   755,  883,   1053,    1060. 
See   also   Arrests,  Deportations,   Prisoners. 

Incitements  to  violence 66-67,  380,  385-86, 

474,    59i,    592,    596,    624,    1057. 

Independence,    arguments    against 236,    251, 

255,   456-58,   698-9,    613,    616-16,    1051. 

bloodless    revolution    to    secure 352-55 

Firitish    Empire   and 100,    608-9,    95 ' 

declaration    of    Irish.  ..  .208,    241-42,    258,    469, 
961. 

signers    executed 467-69 

demanded   by  people 29-30,   40,   59,   166- 

67,  194-95,  222-23,  286-88,  337,  652, 
1055,    1056. 

terrorism    intensifies   demand 337,    652, 

661,   712,    851,   919-20,    1056. 

economic,   of   Ireland 163-64,    236-38, 

487-90,  490-91,   962,   972. 
taxes  exceed  upkeep  of  European  states..    501 

goal    of    Parnell 1 88-90 

maximum   demand 608 

sole   solution   of   Irish   issue 138-39,    i4I_42, 

337,     485,     523,     538-40,     625,     846,     850 
5i,    1051. 

Protestants  favor 75-   77,   79,   159,   172, 

186.    188,   432-33,   912,    921,   977,    1035. 

fight   for 186,    188,  431,   432,  460,    1037 

war  for.   Eastern  Week  first  battle.  .212-13,   542 
Republican    election    victory    starts.  ...  545-47 
See  also  Freedom. 

India,    atrocities    in . 232 

England    incites    religious    prejudices 1034 

trouble  in .  . ; 925 

Indiscriminate  beatings  and  floggings 455-56, 

653-54,   775,   790-91,  874-77,  987- 

burnings    63-64,    520,    580,    603, 

622,  804-5,  815,  832-34,  912. 

highway    robbery 503-4,    653,    664,    775-76 

killings    650,    77^-73,    774-75,    800-815, 

864-67,   929-30,    1053,    1060. 

raids   and    arrests 143,    218,    222,    471,    473, 

520,  622,   686-87,  1054-56. 

shooting  and  bombing 63-64,   113,   124,  370, 

399,  523,  605,  650,  654,  656,  669,  672,  687, 
700-1,  708,  773-74,  778,  790-91,  815,  828, 
857,  864,  880,  889,  892,  910-12,  930-3', 
1050. 

Industrial   conditions.  .  .  ._ 74~75,    445-47 

precipitate    Easter    uprising 1004 

Development    Association,    Irish ...201,    204, 

212,  445-46,   584-85,   618,   619. 
Industries,   Irish: 

agriculture    7,    152,    169,    238-41. 

244,  444,  445,  453-54,  458,  466,  469-70. 
495-97,  497-99-  „  „     „ 

prosperity    destroyed 580-81,    583-84 

capital   needed  to  develop 938,   940 

drained  from  Ireland  by  taxes.     See  under 

Tares. 
drained  from  Ireland  by  British  banks  and 

insurance     companies 957-58 

foreign  government  prevents  investment..    940 

Land   Act   loans   not  gifts 240-41,   941-42 

cattle    raising 936-38,    989 

Commission  of  Inquiry  into....  167,  975,   980-85 

outlawed  by   British.  .585,  975-76,  981-83,   984 

controlled    by    England 443~44 


1085 


Infant    Mortality  Page 

cooperative   448,  585,  972,  973,  986, 

990,    994,    1065. 

creameries    204,    584,   994 

looted  and   burned 37-38,    152-54,   204, 

339,    519,    584-86,    618,    987,    988-89,    992, 
994,    1045. 

societies 38,   448,   461-62,   485, 

562,  944,   972,  978,   994. 

cotton    483 

dairying 115,    167 

report   on   milk   production 167,    982,    983 

denied    war    contracts 445-46 

developed   by    Republican    Government ...  .972-73 
See    Industrial   Development    Associa- 
tion     and      Commission      of      Inquiry 
above. 

fisheries    95,    115,   244,   491,    97 „• 

glass     483 

hampered    by    through    rate    system 939 

hosiery,    Balbriggan 92-95,    584 

Irish    Trade   and  Industry 619 

knitting    mill 448 

linen    78,   95,   254,   553,   556,    565,    585,  941 

meat   packing 581,    973 

motor    trucks 655,    989 

milk   condensing 590,    618,   913-14,   918 

milling 581 

Minister   of    Industries 972 

peasant    crafts 585,    1065 

poultry     .,..'. 743.    745 

compared    with    Belfast    shipyards 941 

promoted    201,   204,   466-67,    584-85,   980-82 

repressed  and  destroyed  by  England.  ..  .229-30, 
445-47,  449,  466-67,  481-83,  486,  579-89, 
590,  617-18,  623,  655-56,  939-40,  979. 
981-82,    984-90,    991-92,    1967-68. 

cause    of 989-90 

result    of 450,     589-90 

shipbuilding    443~44,    553,    556,    561 

.  soap    502 

textiles 115,  1 56-57,  254,  448,  453 

wool    130,   481,    585 

Infant    mortality,    Belfast 561 

Information,  torture  of  prisoners  to  extort ..  107-8, 
752-53,  756,  778-79.  780-84,  789-90,  792, 
1037- 

Informers   757 

essential    to    British    rule 624 

Penstraw    kill  id 118 

punished    588 

reward   offered 117,    474,    594,    696 

unknown    392-93,    474,    678 

Inniscarra,  raid  on S 1 2,  824 

Inquests,   coroners: 

indict    British    Government So 

Crown    forces    for    murder 31-23 

61,    79,   80,    766,    769-70. 

MacCurtain   murder 80.    359-62 

suppressed   50,   69,   80,    1 68,   409, 

622,    763,    861.    1057. 
gives  immunity  for  Crown  outrages.  ...  770,    1057 
military,   supplant   civil.... 50,   69,    80,    763,    1066 

murderers   to   judge   themselves 770 

no   public   report 841,    917 

public    representatives    debarred 841,    916 

Inquiry,    public   suppressed 85,    603,    775 

into  burning  of  Cork  refused 826,   839-40 

Insanity    454~S5 

caused  by  imprisonment 1000 

by   terrorism 88,    710,  918 

by   torture    783-84 

Insurance,  against  damage  by  Crown  forces...  588 
859. 

American     companies 835 

English  companies  take  capital   from  Ireland  957 

refuse   to   pay 588,   834-35,   859,    915 

unemployment    918-19,    1020 

Insurrection,    Easter    Week 143,    159,    209, 

212-13,    215-17,    222,    269,    313,    352,    467- 
69,    541-42.    546. 

of    1798 186 

provoked    by    English    atrocities 232 

International    Labor    Conference ,    435 


Ireland  Page 
Ireland,    atrocities    in    exceed    German    in    Bel- 
gium  -....ix,    770-71,    785,    796,   822-23 

investigated.        See     under     Labor     Party, 
British;  Society  of  Friends;   Women's 
International   League. 
facts     suppressed     by     British      cable     and 

press    784-86,  787 

papers   dare    not    publish   affidavits 788 

memoranda  on '053-59,    1059-60 

See  also  Atrocities. 

birth   rate    455 

British  authority  in  broken  down.  ..  .548-49,  973 
maintained     by     force 166-67,     520,     973, 


sd    by    local    councils 44,    51,    155, 

168,  244-45,  345,  475,  724-25,  760,   1018-19 

unlawfully    constituted 186,    486 

troops    trained    in 148,   544 

Church  of 186,  194,  251 

disestablished    193 

conditions  in  growing  worse 847 

conscription  in 143,   544,  614,   759 

contributions  to  civilization.  .  .476-77,  851,1043 
cooperative    commonwealth 163,    484-85, 

946-47 

crime,   absence   of 9,   247,   248,   250,   357-58, 

378-79,  422-23,   460-61,   637-38,  904. 

depopulation   of 450,  477-80,   486,   491,   498, 

devastation 126,    136,  477-79,   520,  604,  622, 

698,   715. 

worst   since   Cromwell 847 

economic    blockade 579-84 

conditions    5,   45 1 

destruction    580-89 

exploitation   of 266,   486,   936-37,   946-49, 

990. 

interests    controlled    by    England 443-44, 

939-40. 

stagnation   under   English    rule 936-38 

economically    self-supporting 163,     236-7, 

490-91,  950,  962,  972. 

wealth  taken  in  taxes  by    England 163-64, 

236-38,    486,    487-90,    491,    500-1,    729-30, 
945-52. 
education.      See  Education. 

England's   best   customer 169,    989,    1051 

English    debt    saddled    on 235-36 

France    preferred    to    Germany 232 

Government  of 74,   77,    196 

able   to    relieve   housing   shortage 844 

aim   of 499-5oo 

achievements    of 167-69,    2+4.     475,     524. 

960,   971-73,   980-81,   998. 

America    asked    to    recognize 302,   971 

bonds  of 47,    164,   213,   335-36,   972,    1036 

breaks   England's   trade   monopoly .....  .966-67 

Cabinet.  ..358-59,   519,   524,  971-72,  980,    1055 

Courts.      See   Courts. 

Dail    Eireann.      See  Dail  Eireann. 

de   facto.... 74.    167,    169,   241-42,    519-20,   524, 

608,   1055. 

elected 243,    1055.    1060 

established 41,     241-42,     353-55.     474"76, 

524,    545,    548,    1055. 

executive    524,   971-72 

financial     support 47,     164,     213,     335-36, 

950,   972. 
Industrial   Inquiry    Commission.  ..  167,    584-85, 
980-85. 

outlawed    by    British 585 

judiciary.      See   Courts  and  Police,  Repub- 
lican. 
leaders  restrain   people   from  retaliation.  .702-3 

undivided    358-59 

Land    Bank 167,   619,   959-60,   972. 

law    and    order    maintained 45,    46,     128, 

697,  708-9,  793,  881,  886,  973,  977,   1006-7 
See  Dail  Eireann. 

Ministry    of    Defense 649,   972 

Industry   972,  980 

Labor   132,   137,  972,   1000 

not    pro-German 231-32 

See  Cabinet  above. 


1086 


Ireland  Page 

only   civil   authority 45,    621,    972,  973 

outlawed  by  British  Government 50,    169. 

243-44.  353-55.  621,  975-76,  979,  1051, 
1054. 

passports 868-69.   975 

prohibits   exportation   of   food 239-40 

Provisional      243-44 

recognition  of 302,  971,   972,  974,   1005 

relations    with    Germany 175,    231-32 

restricts    emigration 868-69,    974~7S 

revenues   of 164,   621,   950 

successfully    functioning 44,    169,    524, 

621,    954-55,    955-66,    971-73- 

supported    by    people 29-30,    59,    86,    154, 

160,  169,  337,  376,  456,  474-76,  500,  519. 
621,  624,  678,  712,  849,  882,  919-20,  973. 
1038-39,    1055. 

Supreme    Council 335 

Unionists    serve 524,    980,    982,    983-84 

harbors 168,    240,    244,    617 

best  in  Western  Europe 962 

Cork  harbor,  embargoed  by  England 168, 

240,    619-20. 

excels    Liverpool 963 

projected  development  by   Irish  boards.  .0.64—65 

undeveloped  by  England 962-63,  964 

impoverished  by   cattle-raising 449-   936-38 

independence.  See  Independence  and  Free- 
dom. 
military  occupation.     See  under  Military. 

misgovernment  of 385,   486,   499,   624,   946- 

52,   956. 
national  consciousness,  growth  of  in  Ulster.    554, 
555,    1042-44. 

new 489-50,    10 10,    1042-44 

natural    resources,    rich 480-81 .    961-63 

undeveloped 170,     446-47,     461-65,     958, 

961-63. 

opportunity    in    England's    difficulty 214 

oppression    justified    by    England 594-96 

population,    decrease    of 167,    450,    619,   936 

possible    962 

poverty 448-55.   495.   500 

causes    of 448-5 1 .   936 

England    responsible    for 267 

effect   on  health,   sanity,   and  literacy.  .  .454-55 

prosperity,    falalcy    of   paper    money 958-59 

revival    of,   943-44;    limited 453-54 

under    Grattan's    Parliament 228-29 

refuses  to  crush   American   Revolution ^27 

religious  question.      See   under   Religious. 
right  to  secure  aid  from  England's  enemies.  .    213- 
74.   231-32. 

sacrificed  by  British   Empire 140,    167.   4S6 

schools.     See  Education. 

self-government,  demand  for 29,   30.   40-41, 

59,  86,  154,  160.  164,  337,  376,  456,  47 1- 
76,   500,   519,  621. 

cause    of    oppresion 40-1,    42 

development  of 5.  44.  97I_78 

dominion     form     of 139,     155,     540,     546, 

573.  607,   1037-38,    1039. 

England    endeavors    to    paralyze 50.    168. 

726-27,   730-31,   979- 

military   rule   to   suppress 40,   42-43, 

164-65,  168,  353-54.  357-  606,  725-27, 
1001,   1051,    1053. 

solution     for     Irish    qustion 138-39,    141- 

42,   485,    523,    538-40,   625,   849. 

sends  relief  ship  to   America 238,  338 

soul  of  always  Republican 203,  208,  222-23 

confirmed  by  Easter  Week 212-13,   5-M 

South,  arms  in   defense 145,   205-6,  211,   648 

concessions   to   Ulster 253,    612,    1026 

industries  compared  with   Ulster's 940-41 

religious  harmony  in.     See  Religious  Har- 
mony. 

solidly   opposes   home   rule 846 

taxable    capacity 489,    945-46,   950 

taxes  drain  wealth  to  England 163-64,  236- 

38,  486,  487-90,  500-1,   729-30,  945-52, 


Irish  Page 

trade    and     commerce,     annihilated     by     Eng- 

,;in('     ; 491-92,   587 

consular    service 966-67,   972 

Director  of 792 

free  trade 228,  620,   938 

Irish    Trade  and  Industry 619 

merchants,    discrimination    against ..  .444,    492- 
93,   587- 

monopolized    by    England 966 

credit   and   industry   controlled 443-44 

Republican      Government     breaks     mon- 
opoly     966-67 

restricted  by  England 228,  240,  444,  486- 

87,   492-93.  619,  970. 

parcel    post    prohibition 587 

supplies   cut   off 587,  618 

trade   balance 971,    1051 

with   America.      See   American    Trade. 

with    Continental    Europe 966-67 

with    England 169,   989,    1051 

See  also  Harbors,   above. 

two  governments  in 519,   549,   606,  973 

urged   to   fight    for    small    democracies 541, 

758,  848-50. 

vitality,     low 454~55 

war 374,   524,  621-22,   808 

aggressive,   renounced 1027 

on  defenseless  civilians 374,   71  r,  875-76, 

932,   934. 

on    women    and    children 124,     133,    531, 

647,  712-13-   * 

state  of,  admitted  by   Lloyd  George.  .  .202,   595 

struggle  between  two  civilizations 944-45 

two   lines   of   conflict 979 

wealth 163,  236-38,  962 

agriculture   1he  basis 943-44 

drained  by   England   in   taxes.      See    Taxes 
above, 
by    English    banks    and    insurance    com- 
panies     957-58 

of    provinces,    comparative .940-41 

See    also    Agriculture,    Industries,    Mines 
and  Minerals,  and  Natural  Resources, 
above, 
workers'    commonwealth  ....  1 59-60,    163-,    484-85, 
1047,   1048. 

Irish    Agricultural    Organization    Society 152. 

444-45,    584,    619,    994,    998,    1066. 

growth    of 99 1 

investigates    reprisals 995,    996 

non-political 985,    994,    995 

reliability 984-85 

'     atrocities.     See  Atrocities. 

Bulletin 16111,  505.  825,  1012,   1044 

chieftains    197-99 

Church 186,    193-94.    251,    1033-34 

Citizens'    Army .  .212,  649 

Consul-General,    testimony   of 935-78 

consuls    966-67,   972 

Cooperative     Meat,     Ltd.,     suppressed.  ....  .97311. 

984-89. 
cooperatives  battling  British  trusts.  .  .944-45.   99o 

culture 333,  477,  500,  851,   1043 

declaration   of   independence 241-42,   258, 

469,  961. 

Education    Act ' 191-93,    455,    458 

famine    454.   498.   937,   940 

made   by    England 187,    199,    477-78,   4S0 

Freedom    210 

history 185-86,    195.  221,  476-79,   596,  616 

Homestead .  ...  154,   172,  984,  985-89,  991-92.   997 

idealism 850 

importers  taxed  double  port  fees .492-93 

Independent,    580,    1063;    suppressed 787 

Industrial     Development    Association 201, 

204,   212,   445-47.   584-85.   618,   619. 
industries.     See  Industries. 

Insurrection    (1798) 185-86,    232,233 

issue:   dominion  home  rule  inadequate 139 

economic  cleavage  underlies 442-44,  457- 

58,  944-45.   99°- 

independence  sole  solution 138-39,   141-42, 

337.    485,    523,    538-40,    625,    846,    850-51, 
1051. 


1087 


Irish  Page 

military   force  English  solution.  ..  141,   474,   598 

of  international  concern 534,  848,  850-51 

right    of   self-determination    demanded.  ...  849, 
850-51. 
labor.     See  Labor,  Irish. 
language.     See  Gaelic  Language. 
local   government.      See    Councils   and   Local 

Government . 
merchants       and        farmers,        discrimination 

against 444~45,    492-93,    587 

Pale    616 

Parliament    226-27,    236.    243-44, 

449.  460,   462,   485. 

Act   of   Union   passed  by   fraud.  .  , -'33-35 

Grattan's    Parliament 196-97,    227,    228 

suppressed    (  1  80  1  ) 226   27 

See    Dai!    Eireann    and    Ireland.    Govern- 

people,    endurance    and    patience 160-61, 

286-88,    300-1,    352-58,    606,    702-3,    711, 
1052,  1054. 

English  attitude  toward 127,   146,    170-71, 

399,  47i.   521-2-2,    532,    591,    593,   595,   606, 
613-14,  821,   996. 

extirpation    England's    policy 477-80,    486, 

499,   1009. 
Home  Rule  unacceptable  to..  147,  845,  846,  966 

leaders   restrain   from   retaliation 702-3 

never    betray    political    refugees 392-93 

new    national    consciousness 849-50,     10  10, 

1042-44. 

"poisonous   insects" 471 

religious    tolerance 252-54,    501-2 

self-control 76,    122,    134,    711,    714 

spirit 267,   300-1,   334-35.   337-   606,   652. 

661,   712,   850-51,   919-20.    1052,    1056. 

suffering 299-301,  337-38,  339,  589-90,  603, 

609-10,    647,    656,    698,    710,    715,    918-19, 
925- 
unanimity    for    Republic.      See    under    Re- 
public,  below. 

prisoners   refuse   rescue   by   police 173, 

247,  709,   1007. 

Rebellion    misnamed 1 85-86 

Republic    196,   645,   646 

America   asked   to   aid 338,    3411,    848,   851 

recognize    302,   97  i 

American  Association  for  Recognition  of..    172 

attitude    of    ex-soldiers    toward 758 

capitalistic  opposition  to 436-37.   555,    561, 

99o. 
Consul-General     of,     201,     935;     testimony 

of    936-78 

desired  by  people. .  .29-30,   59,    166-67,    194-95, 
286-88,   596. 

established 41,  241-42,   353-55,  474-5-   5-4, 

545.    548,    1054.    1055. 

financed  by  people 47,    164,  213,   335-36, 

972,    1036. 

Hag  of .  .  .117,  375,   512,   691,   790.   882 

not   interested  in   war -'5  5,    1027 

opposition  to  by   England  economic ...  .457-58, 
990. 

by    Ulster 178,    560-62 

position  of  Ulster  in 253,  500-1,  612,    1026 

right  to   receive  aid   from   Germany ...  .218-14, 

231-3-'. 
unanimity   of   people   for ...  .29-30,   59,    73,   86, 
222-24,   337,  436,   456,   474,   500;   519,    546. 
621,   624,   652,   661,   678,   712,   736,   850-51, 
882,   919-20,    1038-39,    1049,    1055. 

proved   by    elections 154-156,    223-25 

"Volunteers    declare    for 207-8,    241-42 

without   a   daily   paper 785 

witness  refuses  evidence  if  status  be  ques- 
tioned   463-64 

See   also    Independence   and   Ireland,    Gov- 
ernment of. 

Republican  Army 52,  7611,  87,   335,  638 

795,  803,   1041. 

aided  by  Cumann  na  m'Ban 212,   628,   645 

armed    warfare  begins 212-13,    352-55 

arms  secured.  ...  90,   145,  206-7,  365,   592,   650, 
687-88,    777,    794-95,   806-7,    1054.    1055. 


Judges  Page 

attack    police    barracks 90,    373,    618,    650, 

794-95.   9C6-7. 
captured  police  released  uninjured. 793-96,   907 

discipline 150,    173,   694-95,   702,  808-9 

independence  declared  by 208-9,  241-42 

MacCurtain,  Lord   Mayor,  an  officer 344 

MacSwinev,    Lord    Mayor,    an   officer 266, 

268,   274,   298. 
maintain  order.  ...  128,   173,  378,  651,  685,  697, 
708-9,  886,   1006-7. 

Martyrs'     Plot 329-30,   801 

Minister    of    Defense 649,  971 

not   a   murder   gang 793~96 

organization 353-54,    648-51,   972 

police    killed    by 372~73-    9°7 

secret     service 258,    594 

strength    of 353-54,    049,   650 

supported   by   people 375"76,   919-20 

uniform   not   worn 593,  649,  804,  808,  906 

proscribed    649-50,    805,    906 

Volunteers    constitute 524,  649 

war   activities 352-54.    374,    5i9,   621-22, 

649.   794-95,   806,   807-8. 
See    also    Volunteers.    Irish. 

clubs   wrecked  and   robbed 638,   815,   816-18 

Courts.      See   Courts,    Republican. 

election    pledge 224 

Government.       See    Ireland,    Government    of. 

of. 
leaders,  character  of.  .  .  172,  432,  436-37,  449,  799 

attempts  to   murder 31,    i6im,   638,   722, 

736-3S,    777-78,    854. 

imprisoned 21,   22,   24,   212,   218,   222. 

344-45,  356,  43i,  469,  47i.  483-84,  541- 
42,  628,  720-21,  755,  863,  1000,  1053,  1055 

murdered    and    executed 160,    161  n,    222- 

23,  280-81,  341-42,  357-58,  467-69,  509- 
11,  541-42,  603,  633-35,  657-58,  721-22, 
738-40,  853-54,  861,  1053. 

pursued  and  harassed 39~43,  116-17, 

278-79,  282-83,  304-5,  430-31,  594,  7io, 
720-21,  734-35,  777-78,  890-91,  984,  1005, 
101S,  1053,  1055. 

seized  as  hostages 803 

Loan 47.    164.   -'13.   335-36,  972,    1036 

movement,   background   of 185-87 

not    involved    in    religious    issue 76.    1035 

police.      See    Police,    Republican. 

Party,   assumes   administrative   duties 723-24 

birth  of   ^ 207-8 

distinguished   from   Sinn    Fein 196-97,   201, 

212-13. 
wins     Irish     elections.       See     under     Elec- 
tions. 
Republicanism,      attempt      to      suppress      by 

force 17,    '4 1 .   474.    598 

growth     of 195-96,     572,     651,     661,     827. 

845-46,   1038-39,   1046-47. 

in    Belfast 172,    550,    564-65.    567,   845-46 

Republicans,   Parnell   works   with 188 

schools.     See  Education. 

soldiers,    Britain   betrays    pledge   to 758 

Trade    and    Industry 619 

See  Ireland.   Trade  and  Commerce,  above. 

Women,    United 619 

Women's   International    League 53!-532,   979 

statement    of 1059-52 

Islands    of   Aran 83,    473,    491 

Italy,  627;   Irish  consul  in 966 

.1 

Jamison,    Rev.   William ._ 96 

Jews,    freedom    from    persecution 253,    501-2 

in    Cork 251,   640 

non-sectarian     school 1033 

raid   on,   742;   woman   dies   from   fright ..  742-43 

Johnson,  Harold,  testimony  of 882-86 

Johnson,    Lieutenant-Colonel 430 

Johnson,   Thomas 619,   980,    1022,    1025,    1028, 

1049. 

accused   of   Bolshevism 1047 

character     1048 

Judges,    British 472 


1088 


Junkers  Page 

given   white   gloves 248,    904 

ostracized  in   Cork 245-46 

superseded   by   courts-martial.  ...  154,   330,   469, 
542,  622,   763,    1044,    1060. 

Republican  Arbitration   Court 1011-12 

in   constant   danger   of   arrest 732 

Land  Court 1006,  1012 

Junkers,     English 143 

Juries.      See  Corjners'  Juries  and   Courts. 
Justice,    administered    by    Republican    Courts.      86, 
167,   607. 

English,   perversion  of 154,    177,    180,   205-6, 

207,  472,  493,   104411,   1053. 

Quaid     case 248-49 

of   Ireland's  cause 851,   935,    1052 

supplanted  by  arson  and  anarchy 35-36 

See  Courts  and  Lam  and  Order. 


Kaiser,   German 204,   214,   547 

Kane,   Mrs.,  home  burned 852-53 

Stephen,    trades    union    official,   beaten.  ..  1062-63 

Kanturk,    Mallow    sends    milk   to 927 

murder    at 766 

Keane,   Sir  John,   D.S.0 986,   988,   989 

Kelley,   Rev 83 

Kellock,     Harold,    Publicity     Secretary    to    Com- 
mission        viii 

Kelly,  Alderman  Thomas 493,  1000 

Kelly,   Captain,  tortures  prisoners 780-84 

Kenny,  Michael,  attempted  murder .■  •  •  •  I0f>3 

Kent,     Eamon,     signed     declaration     of     inde- 
pendence,   242 ;    executed 468-69 

Kenworthy,   Lt.   Commander 325,   538,   601 

Cork    corporation    protests    to 839 

Keogh,   Lieutenant,   tortures   prisoners 780—83 

Kerry,    County 138,    376,    385,    390,    421,    422, 

665,  715. 

captured   marines   released   uninjured 795 

Coroners'    inquests    suppressed 769-70 

Kerry  Row  raided  and  wrecked 83,    136,   170, 

520. 
Kilbeggan,  captured  police  released  uninjured.    794 

Kilcommon,    creamery    destroyed 387 

partially    wrecked    by    police 823 

sacked    823 

Kildare,    County 395 

hay   ricks   burned 580 

land  problem 498 

Quakers    in 502 

trops  refuse  to  quell  Ulster  rebellion 145 

Kildorrery,    murder    in 813 

shot  up  and  sacked 813,  824 

Kilfinane,   captured  police   released 795 

Kilkenny,    138;   coal  mines 170,    446,    497 

mayor  seized  as  hostage 803 

troops    in 143 

Kill,  town,  wrecked  by  police 824 

Killaloan     421 

Killaloe     373 

Killarney,    73;    hotel    commandeered,    72;    raid 

on   convent 72 

Killea,    creamery   destroyed *. 824 

Killings.      See  Murder,  Police,  Killing  of,   and 

Shooting. 
Killmallock,    cooperative    creamery    looted    and 

destroyed    992 

farmers   terrorized 988 

sacked  by  police 823 

Killorglin,    houses    wrecked 825 

Kilmuth,    murder    at 785 

Kiltimagh,    captured    police    released 795 

King,  Mrs.   Agnes   B.,  testimony  of 120-37 

referred    to 173 

King,   Joseph,    M.    P 467 

King    Street    atrocities 1053 

Kingstown   121,  250 

Kinsale,    partially    sacked 823 

Knight,  Hon.  C.   L 182 

Knockfune,  cooperative  creamery  destroyed...    992 

Knights    of    Columbus 70,    75 

Knocklong,    creamery    wrecked 64,    824 

Knocknacurra,  torture  of  Hales  and  Harte.  .780-84 


Labor 

Knutsfonl     jail 

Krumm,  killing  of,   in  Galway 83-84,   130—3 

161-62,   409,  410-11,   412,   603. 


Page 
.    469 


Labor,    British,    contributes    to    Irish    workers' 

relief    566-67 

cooperates  with  American  Commission 5 

Council   of  Action   fails   to   act 320 

duplicity  of  Mr.  Thomas 320-22 

Irish   branches   separating   from 1020-21 

Party,    Commission   to   Ireland 18,    19,    114, 

572,  776,  784. 

investigation    of   Cork   hie   convicts   crown 

forces     836-38 

demand   for   impartial   inquiry   ignored 839 

report  of 593",   746»,   837-39 

committed       to       self-determination       (for 

Ireland)    572-73.   608-9,    >02i 

comprises  workers  of  hand   and  brain....    534 

imperialism   in 608-9,    1021 

leaders    oppose    Government    policy 601 

peace  plan  indorsed  by  Irish  labor 1026 

promotes  peace  with  Ireland.  ...  537,  572,  1047 

Portsmouth    Labor    Congress 320-22 

refuses   action   to   end   MacSwiney   imprison- 
ment     322-22 

refuses  to  handle  munitions  for  Poland....  320. 
581-82,  895,    1024. 

similar  action  for  Ireland  discussed 897 

Labor,    Irish,   accused    of   Bolshevism 1047-48 

affection   for  James   Larkin 1003-4 

arbitration   boards,    Republican 972,    1000-1 

Belfast 157,    174-    175-76 

difficult   position   of  leaders 559-6o 

Expelled  Workers'   Committee. ..  .550,   566-67, 
569,  571-72,   1049-50. 

Nationalist  workers  expelled 157,   i74~75. 

176,   180,  555-57,   1050. 

Socialism     in 1049-50 

Vigilance    Committees 558 

wages,  low 157.  439,  44°,  447.  553.   561 

cheap,    caused   by    "cow   lots" 448~49 

child    labor,    exploited 458 

laws  lax 455.  458 

scandalous    wages 553 

unschooled   children   to   supply 552~53 

cohesive   tendency   of 158,   434.   435 

compels  release   of   hungry   strikers.  .  160,    1023 

demands   industrial    democracy 159-60 

hiring     fairs •  •  454.  458 

manufacturers  promote  religious  agitation  to 

divide 157,    178,    254-55,    434~35.    436, 

557-58. 

meetings    prohibited 46,    559-°° 

migration    to    England 448-49,  613 

Ministry     of 972 

National  Union  of  Railwaymen.  .896,   1021,   1024 

officials   beaten 1062-63 

forced  to   political   action 1021-22 

robbed    775"76,    1063 

socialistically    inclined 1022,    1048 

organization   of 46,    115.  437-38,   613 

in    Belfast 157.    553-55,    557 

wages  increased  by 434.  438-39 

Party,      Belfast      members      expelled      from 

work 556 

control  of  Ulster  Parliament  feared 555 

Cork    Convention 155-60 

election    successes 29-30,    93-94,    i54~55. 


political    question    paramount 441.    1021-22, 

1048. 
refuses  to  handle  war  munitions 89,   159-60. 

168,   582,  589,  894-97,   1024,   1025-26. 

action    rescinded 896-97,    1027-29 

representation  in   Dail  Eireann   wanted 1049 

separating  from  English  unions 1020-21 

social    legislation    for 952,    956,   97- 

Socialism   in 1022,    1048-49,    1049-50 

solvent     for     political     and     religious     preju- 
dices     435-36,    553-55 


30  JO 


Lahinch  Page 

supports   Republic 18,   46-47.   439-4°,   895 

Trades   Congress,    980,    1048;    indorses   peace 

plan    1 026 

renounces    aggressive    war 1027 

supports    munitions    strike 1025-26 

Transport  Workers'   Union.  ..  .20,    115,    157,   439, 

613,  619,  775,  IOOI,  1020,  1022,  1024. 

hall    burned 826 

meeting    broken    up 46 

organize    peasant    workers 1010-1050 

unemployment,  suffering  from 589-90,   610, 

656,'  842-43,  918-19. 

wages   and   standard   of   living 429,    438-39, 

450-1,   454.   553,  561,  565,  613,    1004,    1048, 
1050. 

workers'   cottages  built 942 

women   workers,    living   conditions 451,   565 

wages 4-9-30,    447,    450,    553,    561,    1003, 

1004. 
Union,      .979,      1001,      1003;      organization 

of   1001-2 

Lahinch,     621;     killings     and     burnings,     521, 

602-3  ;    wrecked 520-824 

Land    Acts 481,    936,    9-M.    i°i4 

annual    payments    under 94-,    953 

benefits   of 238-40,    590,   944 

Gladstone    Act 454 

interest    rates 942 

money  advanced  not  a  gift.  240-41,  941-42,948 

opposed   by    Unionists 943 

rural    conditions   still  .bad 453~54. 

494-97,     1005-6,     1008,     1014. 

secured  by  force 238-40,  942 

Wyndham  Act 238-39,  454 

Lank,   167,  619,  997;  organization  and  opera- 
tion,  959-60,   972. 

Commission,    Republican 962,  978 

Compulsory  Tillage   Act   discriminatory ..  .469-70 
Congested     Districts     Board,     494-97,     1014; 

duplicity     of 1010 

Courts,  Republican.  ..  .961,  974,   1005-8,  1011-12, 
1013-14. 

cooperative   development   of 494,    960 

fertility 459,    481,    495,    1008 

League    23S 

litigation  stopped  by  Dail  Eireann.  .  .974,    1005-6 

Purchase    Law ' 47° 

problem 167,   494-95,   499,    1009-1  1 

alien   landlordism 238-39,    240-41,    443, 

937-38,   960-61,    1009. 

made   by    England 1 009 

solved  by   Land   Bank 960 

riots    1 005-8 

averted  by  Dail  and  Land  Courts 1005-6, 

1007-8,    1009,    1016. 

cattle    driving 469,    472,    588,    1006 

causes    1  o  1  o- 1 1 

occur  where  Land  Acts  are  inoperative.  ..  1008 

undivided    estates 494-96,    497-98,     1008, 

1010,    1014. 

untitled    469-70,    497~99 

Wars    237,    1009-10 

Lane,   Miss   Ellie,   affidavit 750-51 

rape    attempted 750-5 1 

Langhorne,    County    Inspector 384 

Larkin,   James 216,    1020 

affection  of  workers  for 1003-4 

organizes    Citizens'     Army 649 

Larkin,    Sergeant,    assaults    American    citizen..    790 

Larne,  gun-running 145,    175,  206-7,   S41,  607 

Law  and   order 9,    143,   355, 

378-79,   422-23,   460-61. 

British    143,    150-52.    165,    178, 

245-49,    250,    609.    624,    638,    987-89,    995. 

an    illusion 160,    973 

partisan   administration 563-64,    606 

police   force   not   needed 423-24 

love   of   Irish    people    for 999 

maintained   by    Republican   authorities.  ..  .45,    46, 

128,     172-73,     378,     475,     524,     651,     685, 

694-95,    697,    708-9,    793,    88i,    886,    973, 

977     1006-7. 

See  also  Crime,   Courts,  and  Police. 

Law,    Bonar 78,    1056 


Local   Gov't  Act  Page 

called   upon   to   stop    murders 766 

leader    of    Ulster    rebellion 144 

law,   international,   violated   by   British   Govern- 
ment     260-62, 

486-87,   766,   787,  808,    1059. 
Lawless,  James,   children   driven    from   home..    104 

funeral     restricted 1 17-18 

murdered     . 105-7,    1058 

lawlessness    141 

created  by   British ..  151,   609,   624,   637-8,  661-62 

in   Ulster 541 

League    of    Nations 1052 

Leap,   town,   sacked   by   police 812,    824 

Lecky,  W.   E.   II 235,  483 

Leeds,    demonstrations    in 532 

Lehand,   James,    murdered 813 

Leinster,   Province 92,    466 

wealthiest    in    Ireland 940-41 

Leitrim,    County,    burnings    in 898 

Lendrum,    Captain,    killed 602 

Lenin,     Nikolai 1047 

Lewis  guns 122,    123,    177 

Liberal   alliance 190 

Government,     English 144 

See  also   Free  Liberals. 

liberals,    definition    of 437 

lead    Republican   movement 436-37 

Limerick,    absence    of    crime 460-61 

coroners'   inquests   suppressed 769-70 

curfew    law 597 

destruction    in 136,    585 

burning  of  hay   ricks 580,   583-84,   590 

houses    824 

cooperative    industry    destroyed 585 

indiscriminate    firing    and   burning 63-64, 

520,    580. 

drunken    police 165 

Industrial    Inquiry    Commission    in 982 

industries   crinpled 581 

Mayor   excluded   from   City   Hall 982 

murders    60-62,    160,    769,    1022 

raids     82,    83 

religious    harmony 606-7,    608 

services    interrupted 82 

shot    up    by    police 823 

soldiers    in 7 1 

suffering   of    people 589-9° 

unemployment    589 

war    zone    around 70 

Limerick    Junction.  .  .  .' 70,    71 

Lincoln    prison 275,    392 

Lind,    Mr.,    insincere    apologist 175 

Lisburn    549,    62 1 

burned   by    Orangemen 150,    570 

devastation  in 520,   570~7!>  899 

killing    of    Swanzy 150,    570 

refugees    from 563,    571-72 

Lisdoonvarna    58,    136 

farms    burned 603 

Lismore,   sacked   by   military 823 

Listowel,    charge    of    Divisional    Commissioner 

to    police 66,    385-86,    1057 

drunken    Black-and-Tans 670 

Lisvarrinane,     feis    suppressed 398-99 

literacy,    effect    of    poverty    on 454~55 

Liverpool    667 

box    contractors 445-46 

port   fees   extorted   from   Irish   importers.  .492-93 

Local    Government    Act 168,    246,    724 

Board,   English 13,   724-25,   742,   844,   966 

appoints    coroners 764-65 

"grants"    decreased    by    Parliament 948 

taken   from   Irish   taxes 725,    1017 

withdrawn    to    cripple    public   bodies....  168, 
586,   726-27,   730-31,    1014. 

now  idle 1016 

bodies,    Irish 168,     1015 

Britain   seeks   to    paralyze 168,    726-27, 

730-31.    979.    1015",    1017. 

pursues    and    arrests    officials 20-21, 

24,   39,   43,    116,   356,  431,   720-21,   734-36, 
890-91,   984,    1005,    1055. 

withholds    "grants" 168,    586, 

724-25,   955,    1014,    1018-iQ. 


1090 


Logue  Page 

effect  of 727-28,   843-44,   1019 

on  disabled  ex-soldiers 758-59,  760 

on    hospitals   and    asylums 168, 

727-28,    1016. 

from    Republican   counties    only 760 

character    of    men    on 799 

declare  allegiance   to   Dail  Eireann 44,   51, 

155,  168,  244-45,  345,  475,  724-25,  760, 
1018-19. 

ninety   per   cent   favor    Republic 29-30, 

154",    1  5 6 m ,   244. 

duties    723-24,    965-66 

legally    constituted 43 

reforms  and   economies  effected 976,    1019 

successfully     functioning 44,    727, 

730,    954-55.    1016,    1018. 

Minister    of 972 

officials.      See   Public   Officials. 

taxation   (rates)  ..  561,  562,  728,  731,  942,  954-56 
paid  to   Republican  bodies.  ...  731-32,   734,   954 

prove     Ireland    self-supporting 954-56 

See  also  Councils,  Self-Government. 

Logue,    Cardinal 223 

London 141,    184,   204,   271,   303,   446 

American    ambassador 536-37 

Bridge 256 

Daily    Chronicle 615,    96S,    969,    1056 

Daily  Express 1056 

Daily  Herald    249-50,    533~34 

Daily  Mail 615,    1056 

Daily  News  and  Leader 533-34,    537 

Nation    533,    601,    1055 

Pall  Mall  Gazette 1 056 

Post     1056 

Times  173,  519,  "615,  1064 

Londonderry    138,    476,    621,   896 

a   beleaguered   city 572 

Protestant    population 176 

Republicans  win  city 572 

riots    476 

Unionists   win   county 760 

Londonderry,     Lord 143,     144 

Longford      County,      coroners'      inquest      sup- 
pressed     769-70 

Looting,   of  Cork   City   Hall 754,   791,   982 

of   homes 514,    623,    744-46,    748,    749,    753, 

756,   779,   812,   813,    1067-68. 

of  public  houses 100,  1 14,   177,  367-68,  503, 

5ii,  563,  587,  670,  675,  812,  857,  910,  933 

of   shops,    stores   and   creameries 39-40,    81, 

113,  666,  722-23,  747-48,  773,  778,  813, 
838,  842,  858-59,  923-24,  934,  992,  994, 
1045,    1067-68. 

Lordon,  Miss  Mary,  assaulted 810-11,   813 

Lorries    898 

ambushed    605,   779,   789,   803-4,   806, 

828,  838. 

purpose  to  get  arms 806-7 

described 59 

manned    by    drunken    soldiers 889 

terrorize  city  streets 72,   121,   121,  521,  604, 

662,  773-74,  82S,  883,  892. 

country  roads 38,  59,   137,  455-56,   503-4, 

516,  522,  867,   1063. 

used  to  break  munitions  strike S96-97 

Loughmore,   creamery   destroyed 824 

Louth,  County,  coroners'  incp_iest  suppressed .  769-70 

Louvain,  827;  burning  of  Cork  surpasses 796 

Lovett,   Dean   Robert    Morss 511 

Lowndes,  County  Inspector,  398-99;   drunk,   in 

command   of  raid 399 

Lucas,    General 173 

captured    380,   383,   795 

escapes     795 

orders    Sinn    Feiners   summarily   shot 380 

Lucy,    Christopher,    murder   of..'. 813 

Lukens,   Lord 495,  496 

Lyburn,   Prof.   E.   St.   John 962 

Lynch,   Diarmuid,   food   controller 240 

Lynch,    Rev.    Francis    C 1063 

Lynch,  Jack,   murdered 86,    137,   519,   622 

Lynch,   Mr.,   K.   C 641,   659,   660 

Lynch,    Michael,    murdered 812 

Lynch,  Patrick,  murdered 60-62,    160,   769 


MacDonagh  Page 

Lynn,    Dr.    Kathleen 159 

Lysaght,    Edward 1064 

burned  out  by  Crown   forces 585,    1064 

on    the    run 1045 

starts    cooperative    industry 585 

raided,   robbed,   and  wrecked 1045, 

1064,    1067-68. 
statement    on    murder    of    Connor    Clune.  .  .  1045, 
1064-67. 
Lysaght,  Mrs.  Katherine,  statement  of 1067-68 

M 

Macaulay,  Mrs.,  shop  looted 675 

Macaulay,  Thomas   256 

MacBride,    Madam    Gomme 430 

MacCoole,    Finn 211 

MacCracken,    Irish   patriot 186 

MacCurtain,   Lord  Mayor  Thomas 

administrative   genius 346-47,    348,    641,    739 

business,  ability 344,  345,  346,  629-30 

British  seek  to  ruin 630,   636 

managed    by    sister-in-law 627-28,    631 

character    344,  642,   660,  739 

election  of 278,   286,  309,   345,   642-43,   721 

esteemed   by   opponents 347-48,    641 

family 281,  344,  628,  633,  634,  642 

effect   of   murder   upon 628-29,    634-35 

effect  of  raids   and   terrorism 632-33 

friendship   with   Terence   MacSwiney .  .  .278,    280, 

343-44- 
home   looted,   644;   repeatedly   raided.  .  .361,   630- 
32,  636,  644,  656. 

imprisoned 344-45,   628,   63 1 

literary  achievements 642 

murder    of 280-81,    341-42,    343,    359-65, 

595,   633-35,  636,  657-58,   738-40. 

armed   patrols   surround   house 350, 

359-6i,   639. 
begins    assassination    of    public    officials...  352, 
357-58,   721-22. 

begins  disorders   in   Cork 69S 

cloaked   by   hypocracy 79 

evidence   convicts   police.  .350-51,    359-65,    639 

followed  by  military   raid 361,   636 

funeral  tributes 640,   661 

household    unarmed 351-52 

inquest    640-4 1 ,   763 

jury-   impaneled    by   police 363-64 

indicts    Government    and    police 80. 

362-63,    767. 

summons   ignored  by   Lord   French 365, 

659,   660. 

Lloyd   George   responsible    for 80,    319 

police    persecute    inquest    witnesses 645 

records   juggled    to   conceal 350-5  ' 

shoot  comrade   for  refusing  to   aid... 636-37 

shot    for 149-50,    570 

shot   in    wife's  presence 281,    349-50, 

633-35,    657-58. 
testimony   of   Miss   Mary    MacSwiney   con- 
cerning     343-365 

of  Miss  Anna  Walsh,  653-664;   of   Miss 

Susanna    Walsh 627-653 

warning  of 149-50,   739 

office   sacked   and   burned 643 

officer  in   Republican   Army 344 

on    the 


popularity    347,    641,    660-6 

started    Boy    Scou 


lrder. 


663 

644 

628 

•  •    633 

349-50, 


MacCurtain,    Mrs.,    attempt    to    1 

effect    of    murder    upon 

effect   of   raids  and   terrorism . 

husband  murdered  in  presence 

634-35,   657-58. 

in   Gaelic   League 629 

sympathy  for  expressed  by  Crown  counsel .  .    364 

jury    363 

people  of   Cork 641 

Protestants   and   Jews 640 

MacDermott,    John 216,    242,    258 

executed    468-69 

MacDonagh,    Joseph,    executed 468-69 

signed    Irish    Declaration    of    Independence..    242 


1091 


MacDonald  Page 

MaeDonald,    Ramsey 538 

Robert,    affidavit    of 793 

Dr.    William,    Secretary    to    Commission....    viii, 
Sj    161.   533,  602". 

MacGearailt,   Seamus 74;,   748,   751,   753,   75b, 

773.   774,   779- 

affidavit   of 777~7& 

MacHale,    Archbishop   of    Tuam 193,    195 

Mackay,     Mrs.,    shop    wrecked,    customers    as- 
saulted    706-7 

MacNeil,    Eoin 211.   216 

MacPherson,    Ian 361,  47' 

indicted   for   murder 80,  363 

Macready,    Sir    Nevil 1 64,-993 

appeal    to    protect    Mallow    ignored 909 

called    upon    to    stop    murders 766 

denies  thefts  by   raiders 746 

given  free  hand   in   Ireland 1056-58 

Macroom,    ambush    at 882 

MacSweeney,  Father,  assaulted  and  terrorized.  800, 
801-2. 

MacSwiney,    Annie 29211 

John   Terence 184,    199,    200 

Lord   Mayor  Terence 79,   83,    130,    132,    162 

anonymous  letters  of   abuse  to 317 

arrested 219,   268-69,    270,   272.    273.    275, 

278.    279,   283,   306,   719,   973. 
body   secured   with   difficulty ....  298-99,   327-29 
British    Labor    gives    only    sympathy ....  320-22 

character     279-80,     29 1 

courtship  interrupted  by  imprisonment ..  268-69 

dare   not   live   at   home 278-79, 

281-82,    283.    304-5. 

death  of 265,  327.   484.  607,  650,  681 

effect    on    Irish    cause 313 

England's    purpose    in 233 

mark  of   respect   for   forbidden 681-82 

delirium     292-93,    323-24 

deportations.  .  .269,   270-71,   275,   284,   289,    310 

education     200-1,    279-80 

ejected  Lord   Mayor  of  Cork.  .  276-77,  280,   281 

English   propaganda   against 263,    295,   306, 

307-8,    312-13.    314-15.    316,   318. 
evidence    against    manufactured ....  306-8.    310 

faith   in    Republican   cause 286-88 

family     history 183-84.      i97~99 

spirit 199-200 

first   sees  baby    in    prison 274-75 

funeral   of 420 

procession    576 

restrictions    on 118 

guard   of  honor   imprisoned 80 

hunger    strikes:    first 272-73 

last 284/F,  301,   308,   1036 

insidious   appeals   to   take   food 316-17 

Lloyd  George  refuses  to  save  life....    319 
never  fed  by  relatives.  ... 295.  314-15,   316 

prison    doctors,    attitude    of 289-90 

313-14,    316-17. 

feed    while    unconscious 295. 

297.    3°i,    3^4- 
threaten  forcible  feeding.  ...  291,  322-23 

suffering 284,  291-3    301,  312 

imprisonments 219,   243,    268-69,   -7-,   273. 

274,  275,  279.  284,   289. 

inquest      298,      327 

interment   in   Martyrs'   Plot 330 

joins    Volunteers 211 

literary   achievements 279-80 

founds    Fianna     Fail 210-11 

poems    200- 1 

marriage 269-7 1 

not   a   Sinn    Feiner 197,    201 

officer  in  Republican  Army.. 266,  268,  274,  298 

place  in    family.  , 184 

purpose    of    sacrifice 284,    290-91,    301 

raids  on  home 277,   281-82,   307,    310 

release,   fictitious   protest   against 263 

succeeds   murdered    Mavor    MacCurtain.  .  .  278, 
280. 

tolerance  toward  opponents 309-10 

treatment  in  prison 270,   273-74,  291-92 

trial    by    court-martial 284-86,    308-9 

speech  at 286-88,  308-9 


Marines  Page 

Volunteers,    dying    trust    in 31S 

Maura,    affection    for    father 279 

born     209,     274 

first   sees   father   in   prison 274-15, 

picture    of 301 

.Miss    Mary,    arrested 218-19 

at     Brixton    prison 31 1-27 

dismissed    from    anglicized    school 220-2 

dum-dum    bullet    fired    at 80 

efforts   to   save   brother's   life 319,   320-22 

exhibits   submitted 1053,    1059 

forcibly    ejected    from    prison 326-27 

founds  school    for   girls 333-34,    776 

homes    raided 218.    307,    310 

refused  admission   to   dying  brother.  ..  .295-96, 
3-4-27. 

scrupulous    accuracy jn 

sees   brother    before   deportation 310 

testimony   of 183/?,   27S,   303/r',   394 

murder  of  Lord   Mayor   MacCurtain.  ..  .343- 
365.    039;;. 

Mrs.    Muriel,    a    Republican    convert 266-6S 

asked   to   end   husband's  strike 289-90 

rinal    half-hour    with   husband 296-97 

forbidden  admission   to  dying   husband. 293-95, 
301. 

use  of  telephone 296 

health     shattered     by     persecution     of     lius- 

,    ^nd 303-5 

learns    Irish    language 276-77 

marriage   in  internment   camp 271 

prison    relief    work 270 

rarely    saw    husband 271,    274 

reconciled    to    husband's    death ....  288-89,    -9° 

sees   husband   in   prison 271,   274 

testimony    of 265-277 

vigil    in    Brixton    prison 289-97 

( )f  the   Battle  Axes 1 98 

Pet«    , • 184,    294 

dare   not   sleep   at    home 891 

testimony    of 889-92 

Madden,    Miss,    assaulted 855 

Magistrates,    favor    independence 155 

receive    white    gloves 248,   904 

resident     5 1 

resignation  of 51,    155,    166-67,   -46,  905 

Magna    Charta 770 

Magner,    Canon,    murdered 800,    814,    1042 

Mahoney,    Constable,   killed 666 

Malicious   Injuries    Act; 1015,    1017 

claims   awarded   under 992,   993-94 

Britain  deducts  from  local  grants.  ..  101 5,   1018 

people    unable   to    pay 993-94 

Republican   councils   refuse   to    pay .  .  .  .  1017-18 
levies  costs  of  war  upon  victims.  ..  585,   587,  623, 
921-22,  996,   1017. 

Mallon,    J.    J 53s 

Mallow,  256,   579,  621;  burning  of 618,  910-20 

milk  condensery  destroyed 590,   618,  913-16, 

918,  987. 
peaceful   and  prosperous   before   burning. .  .903-4 
pledge    of    protection    to    town    broken.  .  .908-10, 
916-17. 

population    893,   903 

repression,   raids  and  arrests 905-6 

Republicans   win    election 894 

volunteer    firemen    save    town 925 

aided    by    Constabulary 925 

fired  upon  by  military 911,  928 

Malone,    Dudley    Field,   of   counsel 343 ff 

Manchester,    American    consul    hinders    coming 

of   witnesses 534~37 

demonstrations  in 532,  548,  576-77 

Guardian 533,    534,   537,   577,    104411 

Man-hunting.     See  On  the  Run  and  Sinn  Fein 
Leaders. 

Manly,    Basil    M.,    of   consul 429/r",    503-5, 

506-16,  552,  578,  595,  601-2,  620,  '664/9". 
852/r',  893/F,  1030,  1038,  1040.  1042,  1047- 
50,  1059. 

Mansion  House,  243;  raid  on 430-31 

Mannix,    Archbishop 311 

Marines,      Admiralty,      706-7;      Black-and-Tan 


1092 


Markets  Page 

disperse   raiders 687 

khaki,   brutal   assaults   by 706-7 

Markets    and     fairs    suppressed 387-88,     424, 

543,   580,   715,    1054,    loss,    1060. 
Markievicz,     Countess,     132,     30;;     imprisoned, 

663;   Minister  of  Labor 132,   137 

Marshall,    Rev.    George    F .  ...    455 

Martial   law,   in   Dublin 542,    1027 

to  apply  to  all  Ireland 66 

zone,   769-70,    1027-28;   devastation   worst  in  847 

Martin,    C.    E 459,  990 

Martin,    Hugh,    171;    life   threatened 50-51, 

172,   578,   601-2. 

Martin,  John  F.,  testimony  of 6,  69-75 

Martine,  Ex-Senator  James 182 

Mary  II,  Queen,   persecutions   of 252,   502 

plantations  in  Ireland 616 

Massacre,    Bachelors  Walk 145,-207 

Croke   Park 300,   593)1,   863-67 

King   Street 1053 

officially  ordered 380 

planned   by    England 89 

Masterman,  C.   F.   G 601 

Maurer,    James    II.,    member    of    the    Commis- 
sion          vii 

selected   on    Mission    to   Ireland 511 

Maxwell,    General 219 

Mayflower     235 

Mayo,  County,  coroners'  inquest  suppressed.  769-70 

land  trouble  in 494-98,    1006-7,    1008,    1010 

McCan,   Pearse,   death   in   prison 483-84 

McCarthy,  Rev.  F.,  assaulted  and  terrorized.  .801-2 

McCarthy,    James,    murdered 31 

McCarthy,  John  G.,  affidavit 791-92 

McCooey,    P.   J.,   home   bombed 810 

McGurk,    John,    affidavit,    818;    home    wrecked 

and  burned 818 

Meat  packing  industry,   crippled  by   England..    581 

suppressed    ;  •  984-89 

Meath,    County,    land    problem 498 

Melland,    Miss 620 

Mercantilism    S85 

Mewhort,   Miss   M 549,  620 

Mexico,  American  soldiers  in 596 

Micks,   Mr.,   Congested   Districts   Board 496 

Mid-Cork,  Terence   MacSwiney  elected   from..    276 
Middleton,  Lord,  supports  dominion  home  rule  607 

Midleton,    ambush    at 1058 

Buckley  brothers  shot... 89,   688-89,   767,   768-69 

houses  ordered  burned 1058-59 

shot  up  by  police 823 

soldier  killed    72 

Militarism,  English  people  oppose 615 

root   of   Irish  trouble 141,   598 

Military    aid   firemen 838,    914 

ambushed    605,  666,   67S,  838,  914 

animals  killed  by 59-60,   672,    714 

arbitrary   powers   of 67,   873-74 

assaults  on  women 381,   81 1,   855,    1041 

bayonet    prisoners    to    death 766,   769 

beating  and  flogging  of  civilians.     See  Beat- 
ing and  Flogging. 
burning   of   houses,   shops,    and    factories...    622, 
666,  812,  825-29,  910-14,  915,  923-24,  928 

boy  soldiers 565-66,  "596,   618,   622 

commandeer    houses    62,    66,    72,    78,    126, 

148,  982. 

creameries    destroyed 3S7,     586,     618,     673, 

913-14,   915,   992. 

coroners'    juries    indict    for    murder 61,   766 

cost    of 591 

discipline,    farcical 922 

lack  of 672-73,   914,    1058 

drinking  and  drunkenness 83,  367,  368,   369, 

399,   566,    622,    675,    700-1,    812,    814,    892, 
910,   914,    933,    1040,    1041-42. 

duties     673 

force,   English   solution   for   Irish   problem..    141', 
,  474- 

forced    position    of 170,    565-66,    593,    597, 

624,  689. 

funerals   dominated   by 117,   374-75,    512, 

802-3. 
inquests,  supplant  civil 50,   69,  80,  763,  861 


Morgan  Page 

murderers   to   judge   themselves 770 

reports   not   made   public 841,  86 1 

killing  of 618,   778,  80S,    1027,   1043 

looting  by 367,   666,   779,   812,   923-24,   933", 

987. 

misconduct  of 126,  381-83,  811,   1040,   1041 

murders   by 60-62,    86-87,    145,    593".    661- 

62,  766,  768,  769,  811-13,  864-65,  866-67, 
929-30,  1041,  1042,  1045,  1054,  1055, 
1064-67. 

attempted 768-69,    771-73 

concealed    by    falsehood.  .  .373-74,    593 n,    767- 
69,  773,  813,  93i,  1065-67. 

number    of 599-600.    770-71 

prevented  by 170-71,   598,  662-63 

occupation 10,    41,    166-67,    898 

cost  of 591,  897—98,  950 

demoralized    624 

number  of  police,    142,    1057;   of  troops..    148. 
591,    594,    898,   935,    973- 

tyranny   of 1055 

officers   torture   hunchback 778-79 

psychology     593,  624 

raids  by 123,  277,   361,  384,  430-31,   604-5, 

636,  656,  703,  705,  734-36,  744-46,  754-55, 
755-56,   757,  777,   778,   791-92,  811,  901-2, 
929,  987,    1001,    1041. 
religious  services  interrupted,  82;  invaded. 395-96 

robbery   by 492-93,    514.    675,    745,    747-48, 

754-=5,   ?i-,   871,    875-77,   987. 

rule   in   Ireland 77,    148,    150-52,    524.   624, 

847,  898. 

extent  of   147-48,   591-92 

purpose  to   crush  self-government 40,  42, 

164-65,  168,  353-54,  357,  606,  726-27, 
1001,    1051,    1053. 

sack  and  shoot  up  towns 812-13,   910-14 

terrorism 622,   773-74,   S12-13,   910,  912,  915. 

917-18,  919-20,  930-31,  988,    1041,   1053-58 

unpunished    for    outrages 689,    814,    922 

Milk,    babies   deprived   of 405-6,    591 

condensary,   burning   of 590,   913-14,  918 

inhumane    consequences 590 

production,    inquiry    into 980 

report   on 167-68,   982,   983 

wasted  by  destruction  of  creameries.  .  .64,  339, 
591.  927,  944- 
See  also  Creameries. 
Miltown-Malbay,    520;    houses    burned,    602-3; 

sacked  by  police S24 

Milling    industry,    crippled   by    England 5S1 

Millwood  home  raided.  .685-86,  689-92,   699,703-5 

Mines   and    Minerals 95S 

coal.     See   Coal,  Irish. 

Industrial    Commission    inquiry   into 980-81 

metals    961-62 

peat 467,    961,    980 

undeveloped  by  England.  ...  170,  446-47,  461-65, 
958,  961-63. 

Minimum  Wage  Law,  not  applied 447 

Ministry  of  Labor,  Irish 137,  44S 

Mitchel,    John 1 86 

Mitchell,  Mason,  American  consul 876-77,  890 

Mob,  Belfast,   177,  476,  520,  555-56. 

Dublin 14  = 

Mohan,     Mrs.     Michael,      American     flag     in- 
sulted      685-86 

raids  on  home 685-86,   689-92 

testimony    of 684-98 

Mohill,  captured  soldiers  released 795 

Monivea,  captured  police  released  uninjured..    794 

Monteagle,     Lord 996 

Moore,    Sir   Norman 290,   298,   327 

Moore,   Colonel,  saves  Darrell  Figgis 982-83 

Morgan,   Denis,    arrested   and   deported 20-21 

elected   chairman   of   council 24 

home  shot   up,   family   terrorized 14 

effect   of   on    family 19,    38-39 

death  of  son 39 

hunger    strike    of 24-25 

imprisoned    without    trial 21 

invited   by   Commission 43~53 

"on   the  fun" 39,43 

refused  parole  to  see  dying  son 22 


1092 


Morley  Page 

testimony    of 6ff 

thrown   into    "punishment    cell" 24-25 

Morley,  Rev.   Michael 512 

arrest 514 

home  raided  and  robbed 513-14 

friend    beaten 514 

signed     statement 5r3-i4 

Motor  transport,  restrictions  on...7i,   340.   679-80, 
1025. 

cause   economic    crisis 581-82 

motor  cars  confiscated  or  wrecked 583,  680 

permits  denied  Republicans 58-' 

Mountjoy,     Baron 337 

Mountjoy  prison 93,   160,  470-71.  473,   1036 

labor    compels    release    of    hunger    strikers..  160, 
1023. 
Mount   Talbot,   captured   policemen    released...    795 

Mulcahy.    William,   shooting    of 815 

Mullingar    473 

Minister,    Province 466,  494 

"Murder  Gang,"   British 740,   777,   778, 

Irish 336,  383,   622,   624,    1028,    1064 

disproved  by  release  of  captured  police.  ..  793-96 

Murders ". 351-55.   47$,   651 

attempted 380,    381,    411-12,    427,    602,   638, 

658,  669,  685,  722,  771-73,  777-/8,  793, 
813,  854,   1063. 

Belfast    attitude    toward 606 

by    Crown    forces 85.    125.    542.    543,    59311, 

595,  618,  621-22,  654,  664,  713,  785,  797, 
799-800-1,  811-13,  815,  994,  1040,  1042, 
1053-55,   1057- 

by  military 60-62,  86-87,   J45.  593",  661-62, 

766,  768,  769,  811-13,  864-65,  866-67, 
929-30,  1041,  1042,  1045,  1054,  1055, 
1064-67. 

by    police    and    Black-and-Tans 3 1-33,    105- 

106,  119-120,  130-135,  503-4,  509-n,  66S, 
766,  774-75,  814,  853-54,  892,   1055. 

of   hunchback 125 

of   Lord  Mayor   MacCurtain.  ...  79-80,   280-81, 
341-42,    343-    359-65,    633-35,    738-40. 

of  policemen 262,  383,  401,  636-37 

coroners'      juries      render      verdict      against 

Crown  forces 31-33.   61,   79-80,   362-63 

exceed   German   record  in   Belgium 770-71 

glossed     over 1  79-80 

guilty    officers    promoted 774-75,    1053 

incitement  to 66-67,   380,  385-86,  474.   591, 

592,    596.    1057. 

indiscriminate 650,    771-73,    774-75,    800-1, 

S64-67,   930,    1053. 

inquiry    into    suppressed 50.     69,     80,     168, 

409,   603. 

in    1 798    233 

number  of ....  599-600,   770-71,    1040,    1042,    1060 

on    the    increase 1042 

officially    ordered 66-67,    35-,    380,    385-86, 

io57- 

of   children 661.    1040 

of   ex-soldiers .. 661,    758,    760 

of  police.      See  Police,   killing  of. 

after     resignation 383 

used    by    Government    to    justify    oppres- 
sion     594-96 

of   priests 162;;,   715-16,   799-800,    1036 

of  prisoners.  ..  .61,   89,    105-7,   I6o,   373-74,   541- 
42,   766.   768-69. 

of     public     officials 16111,     280-81,     341-42, 

357-58,    509-11,   603,   861. 
screened  by  official  falsehoods.  ..  .33,  36,  61,  365, 
373-74,     593",     624,     660,     767,     773,     931. 
1042,    1045,    1064-67. 
British   begin  campaign   of ...  .721-22,    1056-58 

responsibility     for 594,596 

sanctioned   by   Government 151,   380, 

385-86,    427,    1057. 

screened   by   official    falsehoods 33,    36,   61, 

365,  373-74.  593".  624,  660,'  767,  773, 
931,     1042,    1045,    1064-67. 

take  place  at   night 43.    84,   87 

threatened    20,   34,    408,    513,    570,    645, 

738-39,  752-53,  777,  788-89/791,  815,  817, 
822,  858,  862,  914,   931,   1037,    1039-4'- 


39,    105S 
532 


Nuns  Page 

unprovoked    512-13,   668,   768-69,   865,   930 

unpunished    427,  800,  931,    1053,   1054 

1055,    1057- 
See   also    Civilians,    Shooting   of. 

Murphy,   Mrs.   Anna,   testimony  of 402-406 

Murphy,   James,   tortured 778-70 

Murphy,     Nicholas .    266 

Murphy,    Sean,   affidavit    of 778-79 

Murtagh,  Constable,  murdered  by  comrades. 636-37 
Muskerry    " Io8 

N 

Napoleon    .  .  .         23I)   g85_86 

Napoleonic    W  ars 236 

Nass,  shot  up  by   police !!!"'""    8'4 

Nation,   London 533)   601', '  1055 

New   York j;^   3>  ^ 

National  conscience,  growth  of  in  Ulster.  .  554,   ccc 

Nationalists    . 309 

See    also    Redmond,    John. 

Balbriggan    a    stronghold 93-94 

become   Sinn   Feiners 523     920 

constituencies  included  in  Ulster  parliament."   555 

county    council    elections 1 54-5  5 

expelled    from    work   in    Belfast 556 

unite   with   Labor  and   Sinn   Fein   in   Ulster.    550 

Party   defunct 190-91,   456,    522,    523-24 

discredited    by    broken    Government    prom- 
ises      522-23 

Nature   of   military   occupation 41 

Nervous    breakdowns    from    terrorism..      1^5      51  = 
710,    748,    749,    868,    918. 

New   Republic I38>    I40 

New  Statesman 

Newcastle,    England,    demonstrations  ' 

Newcastle-West 

mark  of  respect   for  dead   forbidden.  ......'.    681 

terrorism    in g-.2 

wrecked   by    police 8^3 

Newman,    Major    Oliver    P.,    member    of    the 

Commission    vii,    3;;     18' 

selected   on    Mission   to   Ireland .'....'      5^ 

Newport  creamery,  ambush   falsely  alleged gg; 

New  Ross ; 402,  4o3 

cooperative   society    hall   wrecked 993 

Newspapers,     American,     fed     British-censored 

news     ;8- 

compelled  to  print  threats 6^9.   788-89,   791 

correspondents 249-50 

debarred   from    military   inquiry 841 

protests    of 57g 

threatened   50,   172,  578,  601-2,   1058 

dare    not   publish    affidavits    of   atrocities 788 

editors  arrested   and   imprisoned 786,    1044 

indicted    JT- 

offices  raided 81,   85,    123,    134.   603',   862 

Republican    Government    without 785 

suppressed    47.    210-11,    450", 

787-88,    1053,    1054,    1060. 

New    Witness,    The ~ 89 

New    York l8z,-   4^i 

steamboat  line  to   Cork 168,   204 

966-67,  968-69. 
Britain    prohibits    passenger    service.  ..  .968-69 

Times 162,  358-59,  626,  970.    1059,   1060 

Bolshevik   scare   unfounded 1047 

Nichols,    George,     Chairman     Galway     Council, 

imprisoned    863 

Nolan,  Thomas,  on  the  run 855-56 

store    raided    and    robbed 858-59 

testimony    of 852,    869 

Nonconformists     230,    2;i 

Norris,    Senator    George    YV.,    member    of    the 

Commission     viii,    182 

Northcliffe    press 615 

Northcote,    Sir    Stafford 490 

Norway,    cost    of    government    less    than    Irish 

taxes    501 

Nunan,    Patrick,    Jr.,    deposition 772-73 

shot   by   military 771-73 

Nunan,    Patrick,    Sr.,    affidavit 771-72 

nuns    195.   220-2  = 


1094 


O'Brien  PaBe 

O'Brien,   Arthur 29-'.  296, 

297,    298,    311,    329.    1060. 

O'Brien    house    burned 370_/i 

O'Brien,    Miss   Nellie,    article   by 1036 

statement    of 1030-34 

O'Brien,    William 219,    618 

O'Callaghan,    Lord    Mayor    Donal 74L    749. 

7/2,    773.    775.    820.     _ 

Commission  appreciates  testimony 651-52 

election    7J  9~2° 

on   the   run 73  5-3°,    739 

public    and    private    offices 7*9 

raids    on    home ■    740 

testimony    7I        a?2. 

O'Connell,    Daniel 180 

Dennis,  murdered 813 

Eugene,   murdered    in   bed 813 

lohn,   murdered 766,   811 

Mr.,    store   burned    following    threat 819 

Patrick,    deposition    of 821-22 

O'Connor,  Dr.,  attends  murdered  Lord  Mayor.    635 

life    threatened  645 

on    the    run 645 

Miss    Maggie,    terrorized 750-51 

Maurice,    K.    C 659 

O'Cruadlaoic,   C,   affidavit   of 774 

O'Curry    College ■  •  •  1032 

O'Day,    Louis,    solicitor   of    (..alway 85,    603 

home    demolished 603 

O'Dempsey,    Captain    P.    H.,    denies    thefts    by 

raiders    747 

O'Donnell.    James,    home   raided   and    robbed.  .    812 

Red    Hugh 198 

O'Dowd.     John 495 

O'Dwver,    Bishop ■    7  54 

O'Gradv,      Mr.      George,      home      raided      and 

robbed    743~4^ 

deposition    of 74° 

Mrs.    George,    affidavit 744-45 

O'Halloran,    Dr 367,    369 

Oil   fields.   England   collars 215,   986 

Old  age  pensions 168,   236-37,   953 

Republican  Government   can   pay 952 

O'Mara,    Mr 172,    581,    583 

O'Morda,    Sean 776,    778 

O'Neill,    Laurence,    Lord    Mayor 47° 

O'Neill,   Owen   Roe,   death   of 200 

"On   the   Run" 126,    373, 

515-16,    594,   673,   685,   690,   855-56. 

male    population 392~93 

public    officials 890-91,    1005,    1008 

Lord   Mayor   MacCurtain 721 

Lord  Mayor  MacSwiney .278-79,  282-83,  303-4 

Councillor   Morgan 39,    43 

Lord    Mayor    O'Callaghan 735,    739~40 

vicissitudes    of    men 304-5,    597,    647-48, 

658-59,   710,    735,    856-58,    863. 

Orange    Day T74 

leaders,    claims    of 561 

incite    Belfast    riots 556 

spurn    rest    of    Ireland 560-62 

section,   ignorance  of 253,    550-51 

workmen    heavily    armed 563 

Orangemen     76 

burn   Lisburn 15°.    52o 

Orangeism,    associated    with    capitalism 555, 

561,    562. 

Oranmore.    burnings. 852-53 

resigned    policeman    killed 149 

sacked    bv    police 824 

O'Reilly,    Eather '•    367 

brutally   beaten 368-69 

property     burned 37t-72 

O'Reillv,    Professor,   on    Cork    Corporation....    799 

O'Shea',    Rev.    Edmond.    affidavit 790 

American   assaulted   by  police 790 

O'Shea,    Poer,    Inspector 386 

O'Shiel,    Judge     Kevin 999 

duties  as  Land  Judge 1005,   1006-7,   1013 

on  the  run 1005,    1008 

statement    of 1008-12 

O'SulIivan,   Aid.   John,   home   raided 638,    740 


Philippines  Page 

Owens,   Thomas,   trades   union   official   flogged.  1061, 
1062. 


Pallas     70-72 

Pallaskenry     580 

cooperative    organizer    beaten 987 

Palmer,    A.    Mitchell,    raids   by 899 

Palmore,    Lady 518 

Pankhurst,     Svlvia 615 

Paris    Matin. .' 65 

Parliament,    British 206,   229, 

242,   462,   465,   483,   493,   494,    541. 

crushes   Irish   wool    industry 230 

Home    Rule    Bill   passed 144,   206,   486 

suspended    146-47 

no    opposition    in 601 

opposes    Irish    cooperatives 959 

reasons   for  distrusting 465-67 

White      paper     convicts     Government     of 

atrocities    542,    543,    546 

Irish     196-97,    226-27,    228,    233, 

236,    243-44,    449,    460,    462,    485,    966. 
See  also  Dail  Eireann   and   Grattan's  Parlia- 
ment. 
Parnell,    Charles    Stewart ..  186,    190,    196,    197,   238 

goal   absolute   independence 188-90 

Land     League 238 

social   policy 189 

Passive    resistance,    campaign    of 44,    87, 

352-55,    358. 

gives   way    to    force 353~58 

Patriotic     Party 234 

Payne,    General    Hackett 143 

supports    Ulster    rebellion 145 

Peace,   arguments    for 594 

bases  of 523,   624-25,    1026,    1051-52 

Constituent    Assembly 1026 

human    understanding 598 

military  and  naval   menace  prevented.  ...  1026. 
1051. 

protection    to    minorities 1026 

release    of    political    prisoners 539,    624 

self-determination    538-40,    625, 

848,    850-51,    1051. 

truce 539-40,    609,   624 

local   bodies  to   govern   during.. 609,   624,    1026 

withdrawal  of  Crown  forces.. 524,  525,  539-40, 

593-94,    607,    609,    624,    1026,    1047,    1051. 

effect    of    atrocities    on 531 

for  Ireland  Committee 537~38.  539 

public    meetings    held 548,    576-77 

offer  must  be  made  through  Dail   Eireann .  .    608 

possibility    of 523 

promoted  by   British   Labor  Party 537, 

572,    1026,    1047. 

by  influential   Englishmen 537-38,   576 

by   Women's    International   League 539~40 

responsibility    for 594 

societies    in    Britain 615 

Pearse,    Padraic 212,    216.    217,    258 

executed    468 

Pearse,    William,    executed 468-69 

Peasants,    poverty    of 453~54 

Pedestrians,    arbitrarily    interfered    with ...  .873-74 

beaten    455.    507-8,    5°9,    514-15, 

790-91,    874-77,    987. 

horsewhipped    653-54.    77  5 

robbed    ....503-4,   653,   664,   712-13,    775-76,   877 

shot    790-9 1 ,    880 

Peel,    Sir    Robert,    founded   constabulary 142 

Pembroke,   Countess   of,   hall   wrecked 993 

Penal   servitude ;  •  •  • ; 220,   2^8 

Pennywell    sector    in    Limerick 63 

Penstraw,    informer,    killed 118 

Pentonville    prison 132 

Perversion    of   justice 154,    177.    '8o, 

205-6,    207,    472,   493,    104411,    1053. 

Petrol,   confiscated    for   arson 36,   38,    110 

Pezolt,    Emil,    savagely    beaten 874-77, 

879,   885,    886,   889. 

testimony    of 869-79,    96811 

Philippines,    American    imperialists    in 445 


1095 


Phoenix    Park  Page 

Phoenix    Park,   training   depot 37°-77.    39i> 

395.    407,   421. 

Pitt.     William 227 

destroys    Irish    industries 229 

secures   Act   of   Union  by   fraud 230-1,   233 

tricks    of 230-31 

Placemen     233-35 

Plunkett    House 450.    991.    1066 

reliability    of 984-85,    99i 

Thomas,    signed    Irish    Declaration    of    Inde- 
pendence        242 

executed     468-69 

Sir  Horace 139.    141,  6ig,  985,  991 

convicts    Government    of    falsehood ....  1  52-54. 
5S5-86,    995-96- 

Irish    Convention 616 

letter   to   London   Times 152-53 

lives   lost   in   Ireland 595 

need   for   relief  throughout   Ireland 566 

politics    of 997 

starts    cooperative    creameries 204,    584 

wholesale    society .    959 

See    Irish     Agricultural     Organization     So- 
ciety. 

'"Poisonous     insects" 47 1 

Poland    146,   320,   450.   582.   615,   895,    1024 

Police.    British,   act   as   spies 90,    143, 

246,  257-58,    357,    380,    381. 

armed  for  aggressive  war n,   142.  357,  377, 

391-92"  414,   424,    544.    550,    591,    618. 

captured,    released    uninjured 44,    793-96 

cost    taxed    against    Ireland 950 

cost    exceeds    educational    expenditure 951 

crime  created  by 151,   609,   624.   638,   661-62 

drunken.      See   Drinking   and   Drunkenness. 
Irish    prisoners    refuse    rescue    by 173. 

247,  709,    1007. 

killing   of 141,    147,   251,    355-57,    366-67, 

408-9,     521,     592,    666,    852,    881-82.     907, 
996,    1022,    1053-58. 

attitude    of    people    toward 30-31. 

335.  375-76,   546,   593.   606. 

by    Black-and-Tans 262.    383,    401 

by     other    police 636-37 

England's    strong    card 160,    178 

595-6,    613,    1054. 
evidence   as   to    perpetrators    lacking.  ...  27,    30. 
366-67,    409. 

in    Thurles 16-17,    27-2S,    30,    46 

memorandum    on 1053-58 

"murder   gang"... 336,    383,   622,    793-96 

necessary    act    of   justice 149.    264 

not     encouraged     by     Republican     govern- 
ment     44,   694 

not    murder 90,    256, 

372,    595,    621,    805-6,    1055. 

numrJeV   killed 148,    165.    594-95,    805-6 

disputed   by    Irish   Government 595 

preceded   by    English   violence 148-49. 

542,    546,   573.    1053-55. 

trial    held 1 49-50 

unarmed,    not   shot   unless   spies 257-58 

protected  by  Sinn  Fein.  .  165-66,  609,  732-33 

unavoidable    in    military   operations 805-6 

used     by     Government    to    justify     oppres- 
sion     594-96 

warranted  by  rules  of  war 90,   256-57, 

372.    595.   621,   805-6. 

why   killed 148-50.    160, 

331-32,   546,    593.    1054-55. 

number   of 142,   385.   506-7,    733,    1057 

no  retaliation  against  in  Queenstown ..  702-3,  714 
Republican    police    rescue    from    mobs.... 46,    141 
resignations     of.        See     under     Royal     Irish 
Constabulary. 

stations    142 

superior    to    civil    authorities 50.    732 

used  for  political  purposes ....  142,   143,    146,   606 
See     also     Black-and-Tans    and     Royal     Irish 
Constabulary. 

Police.    Republican 246.    732 

law   and   order   maintained   by 45,   46,    128, 

172-73.    37&,    475.    524.    651,    685,    694-95. 


Protestants  Page 

697,      708-9.     793,     881,     886,     973,     977. 
1006-7. 

orders    cheerfully    obeyed 475 

penalty   for  acting  as.... 46,  524,  709,   732,  793 

wear    no    uniform 793,    886 

See   also    Volunteers,    Irish. 
Political    manipulation    of    Belfast    semi-literate 

population    550-52 

opinion   penalized 17,   78,   374,   471,  472,   622, 

760,   812,   855,   856,   891-92,    1018. 

death  penalty   for 69 

Sinn    Feiners   ordered    summarily   shot....    380 
prisoners.      See   under   Prisoners. 

purpose  of  Constabulary 142,    143,    146.    ion 

question,  economic  cleavage  underlies.  ..  .442-44, 

457-58.   944-45- 
unanimity   of   Irish   people.      See    Unanimity. 

Portland     prison 250 

Portsmouth    Labor    Congress 320-22 

Postal   service,    Britain   threatens  to  stop 623 

Poverty   in   Ireland 266,    450-55,    500 

effect   of   on   health,   sanity,   and    literacy ..  454-55 

Portugal,    Irish    trade    with 967 

Poyning's    Law 226-27 

Prayer,    for    hunger    strikers 1036 

hunchback   murdered    in 125 

man   beaten    and   murdered    in    act   of 503 

people    terrorized    in 692-93 

Presentation    Convent    raided 72 

Priests,    arrested 790,    800,    1036-38 

beaten    368-69,    790,   800,   801-2.    1058 

denied    to    victims 509,    781,    783,    860-61 

imprisoned    162,    514,    1036,    1037-38 

kidnapped    161-62 

murdered    162)1,    715-16,    799-800.    827. 

1036,    1040,    1042,    1058,    1060. 

property   burned 37 1-72 

raided   and   robbed 5  1 3- 1 4 

terrorized    513-14,    1037 

Prisoners,  beaten  and  flogged 108. 

779.   780-84.    1044. 

executed    16111.  222-23,   467-69.   541-42,  614 

inhuman  treatment 470.   629 

768,    786-87,    1039-40. 

left   in   burning   house 109 

murdered    105-6.    160,    541-42. 

688-89,    767,    811,    1060,     1064-67. 

"attempting  to   escape" 160.    373-74,    3Q-' 

688-89,    766-67,    768-69,    772-73.    811,    813, 
1042,    1045,    1064-67. 

by    bayonetting 105-7,    766,    769 

handcuffed    768-69 

shot   in   the  back 768-69,   796 

of  war,   Irishmen   entitled   to   treatment   of.. 261- 
63.   786-87. 

ordered    shot    on    slightest    resistance 392 

outrages   on....  103-4.    772.    811,   S13,    1053.    1054 

political,     English,    released 615 

refuse   rescue   by    British    police.  ...  1 73.    247,    709 

Republican    Army    treats    kindly 796,    1008 

suffering    471-73-    1039 

terrorized    107,    108,    752-53.    778-79-    ~8o- 

84,    789-90.    1037,    1046.    1062. 

tortured    107,    108,    778-79,    780-84,    789-90 

causes   insanity 783-84 

Propaganda,    English 77,    202,    203,    209-10, 

263,    295,    306,    307-8,    316,    338,    372,    602. 
626.   641,    793-94.    1034.    1035- 

apologist    insincere 175 

Carson   subsidized ^   205 

controlled   cables   and   press 7S4-86 

countered     203,    3  14-1  5 

foments    hatred    of    Irish 623-24 

incites  troops  to  violence.  ..  591,   592,   596,   624 
miscalculates     effect     of     MacSwiney     im- 
prisonment     312-13.    318 

prevaricates    ....336,   586,   593;!,  624.  660,   746. 
758,    77?,    825-26,    829-30,    839,    841,    1063 

Weekly   Summary.    The '....502.    624 

unscrupulous    1044" 

Irish     313 

Proportional    representation 12.    225.    475-/6 

decreases    Republican    majorities 725-26.   894 

Protestants,    arrested 744~45 


1096 


Belfast  Page 

Belfast,    children    unschooled 550-52 

drive    Nationalists    from    employment 157, 

174-76,    'So,    555-56,    571-72. 

favor    Republic 1039 

growth   of   Sinn   Fein   among 564-65 

clergymen   ridicule   danger   of   Catholic   usur- 
pation      606-7,    608 

distinguished    from    'Vangemen 76 

fight    Catholics   with    stones 175 

franchise  only  for 188,  227 

restricted    235 

friendly   relations   with    Catholics 423-24, 

1033-34,    1035. 

in    Balbriggan 96 

in    Bantry 126 

in    Belfast      171,    176,    564 

in    Clogheen 379 

in    Limerick 606-7,    608 

in    Mallow 920-21 

in  South  Ireland.  ...  159,  252-54,  422,  423-24, 
432-33,  440,  476,  502,  526-27,  606-7,  608, 
640,   920-21. 

in    Thurles 8-9 

Gaelic   League   unites   with   Catholics 1030, 

1031-33- 

homes   raided  and  robbed 743-46,   922-23 

Huguenots    in    Ireland 502 

in  Fenian  movement 188 

in    wool    industry 482-83 

join  with   Catholics   to   avert   conscription.  ..  1033 

lead    struggle    for    freedom 186, 

188,   431,   432,   460. 

nationality    and 1030-32,    1035 

officials   elected   by   Catholics 253-54,    440 

persecution   in   Gaelic   Ireland   unknown.  .  252-54, 

501-2,    526-27,    608. 
property   burned   by   Crown    forces.  ..  .37,    77-78, 
126,   580,   607,   832-34,   912,   915. 

threatened     606-7 

seek  safety   from    Marian   persecutions.  .252,    502 

self-determination    favored 443 

support   Republic 76,   77,   79,    159,    172,    186, 

188,  431,  432-33,  460,  912,  921,  997,   1035. 
Provocations,   British.     See  British  policy. 
Prudential   Assurance   Company,    uses   Republi- 
can  courts 607,   973,    999 

Public    houses    (saloons),    burned 107, 

114,    177,   370,   408,    563,   812,   819. 

closed   by   Republican   police 475 

Government    bars    in    police    barracks 416-17 

426,   566,  670-71. 

killing    of    Burke    in 97-98 

looted    100,   113-114,    177,  367-68,   503,    51 1, 

.,       563,   587,   670,   675,   812,   857,   910,   933. 

raided  and  wrecked 103,   114,  511,   587,  706 

Public    meetings    suppressed 47-48,    116,    388, 

398,  424,  472,  542,  603,  905-6,  1053,  1054, 
1055- 

Public   officials,   arrested 20-21,   24,    16m,   212, 

218,  268-69,  283,  306,  356-57,  469-71, 
483-84,  597,  720-21,  734-35,  736,  755, 
1055. 

daily    danger   of 720-21 

resignations  ready  in  case  of 743 

hampered  by   repeated  raids   and  arrests....  720, 
734-35,   740,    1000-1. 

imprisoned    21,  22,  24,  212,  218,  222,  344- 

45,  3S6,  431,  469,  47i,  483-84,  628,  *755, 
863,    1000. 

murdered    i6.in,   280-81,    341-42,   357-58, 

510-n,   603,  633-34,  721-22,  738-40,   861. 

•attempts   to    murder 31,    i6i« 

638,    722,    736-38,    777-7&- 

on  the  run 39,  43,   n6,   278-79,   282-83, 

304-5.  430-31,  594,  710,  720-21,  734-36, 
890-91,    984,    1005,    1055." 

raided   and  robbed 754~55 

Purcell,    Mary 266 


Ouaid   case,   perversion   of   justice 248-49 

Quaile,    Robert   N.,    home   burned 912 

statement    of 922-23 


Page 

517 


Raids 

Quakers     

English,   invited  by  the  Commission '.'.    517 

persecution    in    England 502 

religious   freedom  in   Ireland 502,   526-27 

See    also    Society    of   Friends. 

Queenstown    684,    699,    870 

Cathedral     raided 701-2 

destruction   in 648,   883-84,  889 

England    embargoes   port..  168,   240,    619-20,    623 

protest    against 203,    619-20 

named    240 

now    Cove 240 

political     life 698 

population     \  .    848 

raids   and   searches   in 685-87,    689-92 

Republican    court    in 696-97 

sacked    y2,   695-96,   813,   824 

soldiers    in , 82 

terrorized    692-93,    710 

windows    demolished 686,'    696 

young  men   "on   the   run" 710 

See   Cove. 

Quinn,    Mrs.    Ellen,   murder   of 300, 

809-10,    1040,    1058. 

Quirk,  James,  murder  of.. 85,  133,  413,  603,  853-54 
Mrs.,    killed    by    terrorism 918 


Ragg,  murder  of  Dwyer  at 32 

Raheen   Rural   Industries,  burned 585 

wrecked   and   robbed 1045,    1067-68 

Rahilly,    Alfred    D 738 

Raids    352,    593,    622-23 

absence    of    security    from 720 

alleged    purpose 72,    384,    678, 

691,    701-2,    704. 

becoming-     worse 773-74 

Bishops'     graves     violated 701-2 

by  Irish   on    British   mails 258-59,    696 

to    secure   arms 90,    365,    542, 

650,    687-88,    793-96. 

drink  and   extra  pay   for 418-19 

in     Belfast 5^63-64 

in   Cork 81,    122-23,    124,   361, 

522,     604-5,     630-31,     636,     644,     656-57, 

740,     742,     747-48,     752-53,     756-57,     791. 

812-13,   815,   823. 

nightly    124,    651,   722-23 

in    Dublin 49,    430-31,    592,    736,    S63 

in    Limerick    and    Galway 82-83,     130-31, 

411-13,    418,    507,    602. 
in    Queenstown 72,    685-87, 

689-92,    703-5- 

in    Ulster 898-99 

indiscriminate     473"74,     622, 

686-87,    1054—56. 
officers    in    command    of 513,    622, 

686,    744,    746,    748,    749,912. 
on   barracks 33,   36,    90,    373, 

618,    782,    794-95,   906-7,    1042. 

on    cathedral..... 701-2,     1058 

on    city    halls 736,     754,    791,    982 

on    colleges 693-94,     1058 

on    convents 72,    1037,    1058 

on    countryside 137,    455-56, 

503-4,    516,    522,    867. 
on    homes 54_55,    102-3,     119, 

277,     281-82,     307,     310,     361,     408,     542, 

630-32,     636,     644,     656,     685-87,     689-92, 

703-5,   740-41,   242,   744-46,    747-49,    750- 

51,     752-53,    77i,     777,    900-2,    906,    987, 

1053,    1054,    1068. 

on    Mansion    House 430-31 

on    Protestants 37,     126,    607, 

743-46,   922-3. 
on  public  houses   (saloons) 103,    107, 

1 13-14,    177,   367-68,   370,    408,    503,    511, 

563,    587,    670    675,    706,    812,    857,    910, 

933. 

en     public    bodies 735~36 

on    stores,  shops,   and  offices 81,    85, 

103.    113,    722-23,    1025. 


1097 


Railroads  Page 

on   unprotected   women 82,   ,184,   508-9, 

583-84,  587,  622,  630-31,  632-33,  636, 
644,  647,  656,  609-70,  741,  748-49.  750- 
51,  778,  810-11,  817-18,  857,  901,  1037, 
1040,    1 04 1,    1067-68. 

photographs    of 533,    602 

prevent   efficient   public   administration 720— 

-21.    734-35.     740. 

without    provocation 58,    431,    636, 

656,   702,   706,   742,    743,    1067-68. 
See  also  Burnings,  Destruction  of  Property, 
Looting,   Reprisals,    Terrorism. 
Railroads.   Irish,  built   for  strategic  purposes..    939 

controlled    by    Government 582,    939 

munitions    strike 89,    159-60,    168,    582, 

589,   894-97,   1024,    1 025-26,    1028. 

rescinded    to    save    economic   life 896-97 

prohibited   from   hauling   cattle   and    pigs.  .  .    581 

stoppage  of 579,    5S2,    679,    1028 

British    Government    threatens 623,    1025 

causes  economic  crisis 581-82 

food  shortage 582-83,  610-1 1 

unemployment 589,      1028 

dislocates    travel 582,    679 

Ranelagh    Convent,    raided 1037 

Rape.      See  Sex   Crime. 

Rates 561,  562,  728,  731,  734,  942. 

948,    954-56- 
See    also    Local    Goi'crnment    Taxation. 

Rathduff,    captured    police   released 795 

Reading    jail 471,    63 1 

Rearcross,   cooperative  creamery  burned 992 

Recruiting  Act 206 

Red    Cross 207,    340,    1045 

American,    340;    a    government    institution..    611 
aids    Russian    counter-revolutionists.  ..  .61 1-12 

impartiality   questioned 611-12 

not    engaged    in    Irish    relief 575-/6,    611 

unable    to   work   in    Germany 611 

British     ; 575 

aids    Lister    rebellion 144 

military     organization 610— 1  1 

Geneva   575,  612 

Redmond.    John    E 196,    223,    641 

demands  control  of  volunteers 208,  212,   344 

dual    voice    of 190-91 

Financial   relations   commission 489-90 

opposes   volunteers 207,   209 

policy    of 209 

recruiter   for   England 209,    541 

Redmondites    210,    242 

accept    Home    Rule    Bill    of    1914 146 

discredited     by     broken     Government     prom- 
ises    522-23,   524 

lose    elections 93,    94,    223-24 

newspapers   an,   789 

without   power 456,    522-23,    524 

See  also  Nationalists. 

Reformation,     historv    of 221 

Irish    Pale .' 616 

Reiska,    cooperative    creamery    wrecked 992 

Relief    of    destitution,     American     Red     Cross 

not  assisting    575~76 

by   Cumann   na   m'Ban 645,    646-47 

by    public    subscription 112,    918-19 

by    unemployment    insurance 918-19 

inadequate     569,     925-26 

not     available 569 

expelled  workers'  committee 550,  566- 

67,    571-72.    1040-50. 

need     for 112,     203,     299- 

300,     302,     338-39,     405-6,     566-67.     575. 
589-90,    609-10,    647,    715,    918-19,    926. 
Republican     government     can     provide     if 

free    844 

St.    Vincent   de    Paul    Society 453,   569 

Religious    aspects    of   Fenian    movement 188 

differences    dissolved   by    Gaelic    League.  ..  1029- 
34,    1035. 
less   than   in   United    States 433 


Reprisals  Page 

not    involved    in    Republican    movement..      73, 

76,     156-59,     186-87,    640. 
primarily     economic     and     political ....  1 56-59, 
1/8.    255,    436-37.    442-44,    457,    562,    574. 
economic   cleavage   underlies ...  .442-44,   574 

theological    basis   nil 158 

unimportant     1 86 

harmony,   among   Republican    leaders 77, 

437,   640,    1035. 

in    South    Ireland 8-9,    159,    252-54, 

379.    422,    423-24,    432-23,    440,    476,    501, 
526-27,     606-7,     608,    640,    920-21. 

issue    in    Ulster 156-59,    432-35 

artificial     78-79,     157-59,     171, 

180-81,    43^-33,    557-58. 

created   by    England 230-31,    251-52, 

476,     616,     621,     1031,     1034-35. 

expelled     workers 157,     174-175 

176,     180,     566-67. 

fostered    by   manufacturers 79,    157-59, 

171,     178.     180-81,     254-55,    434-45,     440, 
.  5  5.7-58,   574- 
prejudices     overcome     by     Gaelic     League. 
Sec  above. 

by  labor  organization 158,  435,   553-54, 

555,    573-74- 

by  personal   contact 171,    176,   564,   565 

«ots    175,    177.    476,    520 

political   basis 555-57,    567.    1050 

school    question 433,    440-42,    550-53 

to    be    ended 500-1 

legislation   prohibited   by   Republic 976,    977 

persecution  in   England 252,   501-2 

unknown    in    Gaelic    Ireland 252-54, 

Soi,    526-27,    608. 

of    Quakers 502,    526—27 

pictures     bayonetted no 

services — congregation    beaten 1038 

fired    upon    654-55 

searched    48 

terrorized    666 

disrupted     by     military 82 

invaded    by    armed    police 395-96, 

425-26,     1038. 

tolerance    of    Irish    people 252-54 

war,    England   trying  to   incite 252-54 

See   Protestants   and    Ulster. 

Repeal      Movement 1  86 

Reppington,   Colonel 144 

Reprisals,   Abbeyfeale 666-6S,  669 

against   English    sympathizer 588 

neighboring    houses 804-5 

political    opinion 17,    77-78,    374 

Protestants    580,    586,    743-46 

unarmed  civilians 16,   119,  374,   376,   409, 

521.   570,  622. 

women  and  children 605,  669-70,   810-11 

violate  rules  of  war 261,   1059 

alleged  justification   for 161,   400,   580,    586, 

593,  602,  605,  606,  670,  773,  883. 

based  on   manufactured   pretense 81,    512-13, 

580,    586,    623,    636,    773,    994-96. 

cause    milk    famine    in    towns 406 

Cork    81,   605,    618 

Cove     72 

defended   by   Sir   Nevil   Macready 164-65 

Dillon's   Corners,   without   justification S83 

Englishmen   ashamed  of 524 

Ennistymon    520-21 

essential    to   government   by   force 624 

excessive    83,    84,    593 

Feakle      367-74 

forbidden   in   U.    S.    Army 667 

Galway 84-85,   130-135.   410-13,  852 

indiscriminate    580,    603,    804-5,    012 

investigation    after    killings 412,    S92 

Limerick    83 

Eishurn    570-71 

Mallow    618 

Miltown-Malbay    602-3 

officially    ordered 66,    622,    74611,    804-5, 

916-17,     105S-59. 


1098 


Republic  Page 

directed   by   officers.  ...  586,   605,   686,   746,   912 

sanctioned     164-65,    586,    622 

people      refrain      from      retaliation      against 

police    702-3.    7 !  4 

support    Republic    despite 3 7 5-76 

Skerries     1  18-19 

stopping   of   as    means    to    peace 523 

Templemore    34_35 

Thurles 16 

Tuani    408-9 

"war   on   women   and   children 124,    133, 

531.   605-6. 

without   justification 161,   400,    514-15,    580, 

586,    59311,    714,   805,   883,   994-96. 
Republic,    Irish.      See   Irish    Republic. 
Republican      Army.        See      Irish      Republican 
Army. 
Courts.      See    Courts,   Republican. 
Government.     See  Ireland,   Government  of. 
Parliament.      See   Dail  Eireann. 
Police.       See    Police,    Republican. 

Resident    magistrates 5  > .    246 

Republicanism,  attempt  to  suppress  by   force.  .       17, 
141.    474-    598. 

growth    of 195-96,    572,    651,    661, 

827,   845-46,    1038-39,    1046-47. 

in    Belfast 172,    550,    564-65,    567,    845-46 

Republicans,    Parnell   works   with 188 

See  also  Irish  Republican  Leaders  and  Shin 
Fein. 
Resignations,   of   assistant   inspectors   general.  .  1056 

of    Black-and-Tans 598~99 

of  Deputy  Inspector  General  W.  M.   Davies.1056 

of   Deputy    Lieutenants 1  5  5.    905 

of   General    Crozier 599" 

of   Inspector   General    Smith 384 

of  magistrates 51.    1 55-    246,  905 

of     police.       See     under     Royal    Irish     Con- 
stabulary. 
of  Privy   Counsellor    Sir   Thomas    Stafford..   155, 

9*05- 
of   public   officials    ready    in    case    of   arrest..    743 

Resistance,     forcible 3S3~58 

passive,    campaign    of 44.    87.    352-55,    358 

Respect    for    dead    contrasted 881-82 

Restoration   of   Order   in   Ireland   Act 68, 

251,  764,  1044. 

Restrictions    on    funerals 117-18,     512,    802-3 

on    import    of    fodder 580 

on    Irish    industries 229-30.    445-47.    449. 

466-67,   481-83,   4S6,    579-89.    590,   617-18. 
623;    655-56,    939-40. 

on   motor    transport 71,    160,    581-83, 

679-80,    1025. 

on    railway    shipments.. 581-82 

cause     economic     crisis 583 

travel    demoralized   by 679-80,    681 

Richardson,    Lieutenant,    tortures    prisoners...    781 

Richmond    Barracks 258,    269.    270 

Ring,    Mrs.,    store    looted    and    burned 924 

Ring,    Timothy,    Sr.,    affidavit 820 

Ring.    Timothy,    Jr.,    affidavit 821 

Riordan.    Edward 445-46,    618,    619 

Riots,    Belfast ...476,    520,    555-56 

Londonderry,    checked    by    Volunteers 651 

Roads,    blockaded 70 

hold-ups    on 59 

terrorized   bv   armed    lorries 38,    ^9,    137. 

455-56,    503-4,    5i6,    522,    867,    988,    1040. 

Robbery    by    Black-and-Tans 503~4-    508,    509. 

511,    653,    664,    675,    712-13.    775-76,    857- 
58,    877,    888,    890,    934,    1067-68. 

by    Crown    forces 623.    741,    744-46,    749, 

75^-53.    754-55.    756.    812,    871.    875-//- 

by    military 492-93.    5'3-i4.    666,    675,    745, 

747-48,    754-58,   812,   987. 
See   Looting. 
Roberts,    Lord,    recruits    for   Ulster   rebellion..    144 

Roberts,    Thomas,   affidavit 790-91 

shot      79i 

Robinson,   Mrs.   Annot   Erskine 62  1 

personal    observations    in    Ulster 549^ 

testimony    of 53off,    587    599,    606.    614 


Royal  Page 
United    States    Consul    seek    to    prevent    sail- 
ing    534-37 

Rockwell     College 59 

searched    for    arms 693 

Rooney,  Mr.   murder  of 32-33 

Roosevelt,    President 152 

Rosegreen,  shot  up  by  police 824 

Ross,    D.    W.,   espionage    agent 117 

Ross,    Judge 472 

Roscommon,     County 68 

burnings    in 898 

coroners'     inquests     suppressed 769-70 

land   trouble   in 1009,    1010 

Royal     Irish    Constabulary 10,     1  : 

advance  guard  of  imperialism 142 

age      415 

ambushed    149,   256,   409,   521,  666,    1058 

aggressive    armed    force ,....11,    142,    357, 

391-92,   414,   424,    544,    550,    591,    618. 

barracks    33*   36,    41 .    63, 

95,  96,    129,   351,   400-1. 

attacks    on 33.    36,    44.    63,    90,    353. 

373.   397.   618,  782,   794-95.  807. 

fortified     11,    424 

Government  bar  in.. .416-17,  426,   566,  670-71 

houses    commandeered    for 39,    41, 

62,    66,    72,    78,    126,    148,    1057. 
beat    and    flog    civilians.      See    Beating    and 
Flogging. 

burnings    by    65,    105,    107,    109-12, 

370,    411,    813,    815,    817-18,    819-22,    825- 
43,     852,    992. 

aid    firemen 838,    925.   933 

boast       of       destruction      of      Cork      City 

Hall   821-22 

fire    upon   firemen 854 

boycott    of    780 

captured  and  released  uninjured 44,  793-96 

character    of 163,    249-50, 

372,    417,    671,    695- 

civil    status    desired 179-80,    425 

coroners'    juries    indict    for    murder 3I_33. 

80,  362-63,  766. 

impanelled     bv     33.     363-64- 

764-66. 

creameries  destroyed   by 64,    153,   824. 

992-93.    1058,    1060. 

crime    created    bv 151.    609,    624. 

638.    661-62. 

crown   counsel  drops   defense 364 

cut  off  girls'  hair .600-1,  810-1  1.   855 

discipline    671,   1058 

drinking  and   drunkenness 65.   87,    165, 

399,    622,    670,    793.    822.    853.    1068. 

Government     bar     in     barracks 416-17. 

426.566,    670-71. 

factory    burned    by 92.    1  1 1 

fair*    ard   markets   suppressed 387-88.   424 

(',    Division 257.    273,   658.    676 

killing   of,    by    Sinn    Fein.      See   Police,    Kill- 
ing   of. 

by     Black-and-Tans 262,383.    401 

by    fellow    police 636-37 

killings  by 31-33.  79~8o,   105-6,  766,  800-1, 

813,   825-53,   853-54. 

attempted 411-12,  738.  793.  854 

cloaked  bv  official   falsehood.  ...  33.   36.  61,  365 

Lord  Mayor   MacCurtain 280-81,   350-51. 

359-65,   633-35,   639,   738-40. 

number    of 599-600,    770-71 

officially   ordered  bv  General  Lucas 380 

by   Colonel    Smyth 66-7,    385-86.    1057 

sanctioned     164-65 

threatened    34,    645,    817.    822 

looting  and   robbery.     See  Looting  and  Rob- 
berv. 

number  of 142.   385,    506-7,   733,    i°57 

officers    opposed    to    frightfulness    sacked.  ...  1056 

origin    of     -42 

patrols    350.   618 

pav    of    387,   4i4 


1099 


Royal  Page 

pensions 167,    389,   425 

raids    by 399,    622-23,    630-31,    632-33,    647, 

*  7°3.    7°4.    810-11,    812-13,    816-18,    900-1. 

drink  and  extra  pay  for 418-19 

records   juggled   10   conceal   murder 3.50-51 

recruited    formerly    from   peasantry 142 

from    England 734 

reinforced    by    "'men    who    can    kill" 413-14 

relations    with     Hlack-and-Tans 129,     135-36, 

160,   400-1.   402,  415,   689,   695,   777. 
restrain    Black-and-Tans    from    murder...    777 

shot    by    Black-and-Tans 262,    383,    401 

religious   services   invaded.  .395-96,    425-26,    1038 
reprisals   by.      See  Reprisals. 

resignations    from 66,    166-67,    -46,    262-64, 

376,   384-85,    389,   417,    59i.    733-    810. 

penalized 129,    385,   810 

by  flogging.  .  149,  262,  417-18,   1058,   1061-62 

by  murder 129,   149,  262-63,  383 

prevented  by   pensions 167,   389,   401 

reasons    for 263-64,    384-85,    401-2,    418, 

425.  905- 

reserve  force  ask  to  be  disarmed 733,   798 

run   amuck 351,   410,   701 

service  in  native  county  forbidden.  .  .377-78,    591 

shelter    terrorized    women 917,  933 

soft-point    bullets    used 673-74 

spies   for  military 90,   143    246,   257-58,  357, 

380,   3S5,   393-94- 

espionage    replaces    police    duties 393-94 

superior    to    civil    authorities 50,   j.\2 

terrorism     bv 14-18.     35,     83-86,    618,     622, 

810-11,   817,  821-22,  838,   986-S7.  988. 
testimony   of  resigned   members: 

John  Joseph  Caddan 407-20,  626 

Daniel   Francis  Crowley 376-89 

l>aniel    Galvin 421-27 

John    Tagney 390-402 

referred    to 460-61 

repudiated    falsely    by    Sir    Hamer    Green 

wood    626-27 

towns  sacked  and  shot  up 14-18,  35,  83-86, 

812-813. 

training   of 3/6-77.   39L    407.    4-i 

in   use  of   war  weapons 377,   391-92,   407, 

414.    424; 

used    for    political    purposes 142,     143,     146, 

1011. 

war,  equipped   fur 377,   391-2.  407,  414,   591 

weapons  captured  by   Sinn  Feiners 365 

women  assaulted,  terrorized,  shot 810-11.817 

See    also    Au.tJliarv    Corps,    Black-and-Tans, 
and   Police. 

Royal    University    of    Ireland 280 

Rumenia,    cost    of   government    less    than    Irish 

taxes     501 

Ruddy,   Hugh,  resigned  constable   flogged  ...  4  1  7-18. 
1061-62. 

Russell,     George     W.     OE) 152,     154.     172.    432. 

451,   619.    985. 

editorials   by 984,    985-89.    994-97 

Russell,  Miss  Ruth,  testimony  of .  .  .  .  .428-462 

Russia 176,   598 

American     Red     Cross     aids     counter-revolu- 
tionists      61 1-12 

Council    of    Action    prevents    war    against...  320, 

582,    895.    1024. 
See  also  Bolshevism  and  Soviet. 

Ryan.    Prof.    Hugh,    D.    S.    C 980 

Rycroft.    General,    alleges   false    excuse    for    re- 
prisals        005 


Safety    of   the    Empire 457,    609,    617 

Ireland    will    guarantee 251,    255-56,    61711. 

1026.    1051. 

St.  Paul's    256 

St.   Vincent   de   Paul   Society 433,   569 

Saloons.      See   Public   houses. 

Samuel,   Hon.    Herbert,   on   Ireland 1055 

Sanitv.   effect   of   poverty   on 454 

San  Francisco.  Cork  destroyed  like.... 878,  880-S1 
Sanskrit,    relation   to   old   Gaelic 485 


Sinn    Fein  Page 

Scanlon,    American    sailor,    robbed 888 

Scariff    373 

Schleswig    140,    146 

Scotch    Reformation 561 

Scotland    499 

birth    rate    compared 455 

contented  with  Act  of  Union 596,  607,  951 

Educational    Act 552 

number   of   police 142 

prejudice    against    Irish 613 

relative  contribution  to  Imperial   treasury. 945-46 

Scott,    Sir   Walter "192,   202 

Searches,    indiscriminate 863,    866, 

873-74.   884-85,    1053. 

of   American   citizens 55-57,   71,   72, 

679,   680-81,   705,    711-12,   871,   887,  891. 
of  women  and  children.  ...  381-82,  404,  513,  630, 
63-'.   638,   682,   691,   712-14. 
Secret  service.     See  G  Division,  British  Secret 
Service,    and    Spies. 

Security,    absence    of    in    Ireland 720 

Seditious    literature,    raids    for 68,    205,    230, 

505,   786,   900,    1063. 

penalty    for    possessing 505 

planted    to    incriminate 306-8,    623,   676 

Self-control    of    Irish    people 76,    122,    134,    160 

Self-determination     basis    of    any     Irish     settle- 
ment     538-40.    625,   849 

Dail   Eireann  alone  can  decide 608 

England's    false    pretense   of 850 

favored   by    British    Labor    Party 57-~73 

by    Protestants 443,   607 

meaning    of    456 

right  of 607,  848-49,   1047 

Ireland   will   fight    for 850-51 

various  interpretations.  . 538-40,   608-9 

Self-Determination    League 292,    576-77 

Self-government.        See     Ireland,     Self-govern- 
ment. 

Serbia    455 

Sex  crime 751,    1040 

court-martials     for 1040 

difficult   to   ascertain 75  1,    1040 

no  evidence 382,   564,   600 

rape    attempted 749~5 1 

Sexton,  Thomas,  M.   P 489 

Schools.      See  Education. 

Scott,   Sir  John 348 

Scott,    Sir   Walter 192,  202 

Shaftesbury,    Lord 155 

Shanagolden   partially   sacked  by   police 824 

Shandon   church,   Cork 121 

Shannon,   River 173,  466,   1009,    101 1 

Sheehan,    Father,    convicted    of    slander 761 

Sheehy-Skeffington,    Mrs 600 

Sherlock,    John,    murder    of 118-119 

Shipbuilding.   Belfast 443,   553,   556,561 

Shrewsbury     271 

Shooting,   "a    night   of 105,    370,    910-12 

indiscriminate 63-64,    113.    124.    370,    399, 

520-21,    523,   605,   650,   654,   656,   669.   672, 
700-1,   708,   773-74.   778.   700-91,   815,   828, 
857,   864,   880,   889,   892,   910,    912,    930-31. 
1060. 
of  children.      See   Children. 
of   police.      See   Police,    killing   of. 
of   Prisoners.      See   under   Prisoners. 
of  civilians,   fatal.      See   Murders. 

not   fatal 51-52,   374.   403-4.   4".   456, 

669,     713,     768-69,     77I~73.     790-91.     810, 
812-13,    815,    854,    880,    1063. 

Simon,  Sir  John 538,   548,  601 

Shortt,    Edward 298-99,    319,    324-26,    470 

Sinn    Fein,    aims    of 167,    170,    523,    541.    961 

""  assimilates    Nationalist    Party 522-24 

Belfast,    rapid   growth    in 564-65 

British  campaign   against.      See  British   Policy. 

-cabinet     1  59-1 72 

clubs  raided,  robbed,  and  wrecked 638,  81  s. 

816-18,   S25. 

constitution     of 170 

•constitutional    movement 196-97,   344 

desires   peace 151 


1100 


Sisters    of    Mercy  Page 

disrespectable  to  be 220-22 

elections  prove  people  want 154-56,  223-25 

evidence  manufactured  to  convict 623,  676, 

690-91,   744,   773. 

English  sympathizer  raided  by 587 

"extremists" 141,     147,     318,     336,     365, 

523,  596. 

elections   disprove 155 

false    insinuation 172,    337,    641,    660 

flag   117,  375,   512,  691,   790,   882 

founded   by  Arthur  Griffith 196-97 

growth   of 172,    195-96,   564-65,   651,  661, 

827,  845-46. 
Government.      See   Ireland,    Government   of. 
independence  not  in  original  program.  .  .  197,  201, 
54'- 

now   demanded 523,    524,   608 

intimidation    by,    untrue 765 

leaders,    ability 449 

arrested  and  imprisoned.  .  .20,  21,  24,  161/1, 
218,  222,  356,  471,  541,  621,  720-21,  1000, 
1053.  1055. 

executed 16m,    222-23,    467-69,    541-42, 

614.    1053. 

highly    educated 172,    432,    436-37.    449 

murdered 160,     280-81,     341-42,     509-11, 

721-22,  738-40,  854,  861,    1018,    1053. 

attempts   to   murder 31,    i6ih,    638,    722, 

736738,   777-78. 
no  religious  differences.  .  76-78,  437,  640,    1035 
Protestant.  ..  .77,    172,   431-32,    437,    460,    1035 

pursued     and     harassed 39,     43,     1 16-17, 

27&-79,  282-83,  304-5,  430-31,  594,  7io, 
720-21,  734-35,  777-/8,  890-91,  984,  1005, 
1053,   1055- 

restrain  people  from   retaliation 702-3 

spied   upon 249-50 

law  and  order  maintained  by.... 45,    128,    172-73 
meaning  and  policy ....  196-97,  201,   212-13,   882 

movement 167,    170.    191,    195,   207 

"murder  gang" 336,   383,  622,  624,    1028, 

1064. 
disproved  by  release  of  captured  police.  .793-96 
odium  for  Crown  outrages  falsely  put  upon.  262, 

365,  624,   660. 
Parliament.     See  Dail  Eireann. 
police.      See  Police,   Republican. 

supported   by   business   men 172,    882 

by   Irish   people 59,   73,    86,   222-24, 

337.  436,  456,  474.  500,  519,  546,  621,  624, 
661,   678,   712,   736,   882,    1038. 

not    a    class    movement 882 

supporters   denied   auto   permits 582-83 

right  of  assembly 388 

hunted  and  pursued 39,  43,   116-17,  304-5, 

594,    673,    690,    704,    710,    801,    863,    891, 
101 1. 
See  On  the  Run. 

to  be  bayoneted  at  sight .  .396-98 

to    be    summarily    shot 67,    352, 

?8o,   385-86,    388-89,    1057. 

to  be  wiped  out 67,  1057,  1058 

tradesmen,   discrimination   against 630,    636, 

663,   664. 

Ulster,  strength  in 172,  432,  564-65 

Ulsterman    repudiates 178 

workers  expelled  in  Belfast 157,  174-75,  176, 

556,   567. 
See   also   Ireland,   Government  of,   Irish  Re- 
public,   Irish    Republican    Army,    and 
Volunteers. 
Sisters   of   Mercy,    ejected    from   workhouse...    126 

shelter   terrorized   women   and   children 692 

Skerries    95,    118-19 

Skibbereen   shot   up  by   military 812 

Slattery,   Henry   F 489 

Sligo,     County 402,  495 

poverty    in 453-54,    459 

Lord    495,  496 

Smith,  Inspector  General  T.  J 1056,   1057 

indicted    for    murder 363 

resigns   384 

Smith,   F.   E.     See  Lord  Birkenhead. 


Stores  Page 

Smith-Gordon,    Eionel 167,   450,   459,    619 

Smyth,    Divisional    Commissioner,    incites    men 

to    violence 66,    385-86,    1057 

killed 67)1,     174,    386 

orders  Sinn  Feiners  shot  at  sight.  .  .385-86,    1057 

Social   life  disrupted  by  terrorism 39 

Socialism,   in  Irish  labor 1022,    1048-49 

like   Brehon   laws 485 

strongest    in    Ulster 1049-50 

Socialists,    Belfast,    expelled    from    work 556, 

1049-50. 

Protestant     1 050 

unite  with  Labor  and  Sinn   Fein 550 

British,    favor  Irish   independence 608 

Society    of   Friends,    American 528 

English,     579;     ashamed     of     Government's 

deeds    in    Ireland 524 

Commission    to    investigate    Irish    condi- 
tions     517-18,   573 

impartiality   of 519,    526 

purpose   of 519 

report   of 519-24 

number    of 528 

relieves  suffering  in  Ireland 610 

Irish,   aid   investigation 51S 

never  persecuted 502,    526-27 

opposed  to  all  war 527-28 

political   affiliations   527 

See   also   Quakers. 
Soldiers,   British.      See   Military. 

Soldiers    (ex),   Irish 170,   759 

.     Britain  betrays   pledge   to 758,    759 

gives  election   beer  to 643 

injures  by   withdrawal    of   grants.  .  758-59,    760 

fought   for   rights   of   small   nations 758 

murdered  by  Crown  forces 661,   758,   760 

support    Republic .    758 

wounded    by    Crown    forces 760 

Soldiers'    and    Sailors'    Federation 93,    347 

Solomon's    judgment 86,    330 

South    Africa 1 39 

Southampton,    searches    at 711 

Southern    Ireland.      See   Ireland,    South    of. 
Soviet,   Russia,  American   Red  Cross  not  in.611-12 

gold    1049 

in    Ireland 1047,     1049 

See   also   Bolshevism   and   Russia. 

Spain    491,    627 

Irish   consul   in 966 

trade    with 967 

Spies    594,   623,    1055 

criminals   sent   as 249-50 

essential   to   government   by   force 624 

G   Division 257-59,   273 

police  act  as 90,    143,  246,  257-58, 

357,   380,    381,    385,   392-93. 

reward   offered    for 117,    474,    696 

shooting    of   police    as,    justified    by    code    of 

war 331-32 

shot  only  on  official  evidence 259 

prior  warning  given 260,   331-32 

unarmed   police  not  shot   unless 257-59 

Stack,   Austin,   T.   D. 392 

Stafford.   Sir  Thomas,   resignation   of 155,   905 

Starvation     45 1-53,    461 

America  asked   to   prevent 340 

caused  by  destruction  and  burnings.  .338-39.  698 

people    facing 715 

suffering  of   women   and   children 338 

wages    429,   447,   450-1 

Stewart,     Rev.    William 76 

Stockley,   Prof.   \V.    F.   P 660,    799 

affidavit    737-38 

attempted   murder   of 722,   736-38 

Stores  and  shops,  burned 77,   88,    107,    no, 

370,    408,    520,    563,    587,    606,    773,    815, 
816,   825-26,   828-29,   837-38,   923-24,   928. 

financial  losses 47,  832-34,  922-24 

looted    39-40,    100,    1 13-14,    177,    367-68, 

587,     666,     773,     778,     816,     858-59.     885, 
923-24. 

raided  and  wrecked 81.  85,  103,   113,  603, 

605,   657,    706-7,    773,   778.   884,    885. 


1101 


Strickland  Page 

customers    assaulted 706-7 

Strickland.   Major  General   Sir  E.  P 310,  361 

holds  military  inquiry  into  burning  of  Cork.    840 

report    suppressed    by    Government 841 

Suck   River 466 

Suffering.  See  Destitution.  Destruction,  Irish 
People,  Relief,  Starvation,  Unemploy- 
ment,   Women   and   Children. 

Sughreel,    shot    by    Black-and-Tans 456 

Sullivan,  hay  burned 456 

home   commandeered 62 

shot   by    Black-and-Tans 456 

Sullivan,  T.   D.,   poems   of 200 

Sunday's  Well,  deaf  man  killed  at 713 

Suppression    1 060 

British    policy    of 1053-58 

of  civil  liberties.  .47-48,   115-16,  210-11,  542,  545 

of  coroners'  juries 50,   69,  80, 

168,  409.  622.  763,  769-70. 

of   Dail    Eireann i6i;i,    243 

of  fairs  and  markets 387-88,  424,   543,   580, 

715,    1054.    1055. 
of  Irish  industries.     See  under  Industries. 

of   news 578,   623,    784-86,    1044;;,    1058. 

Freeman's  Journal 47,   115,   786,  787,   1044 

of  newspapers 47,  81,  85,  210-11,  450,  542, 

787-88,  862,   1053,   io54,   1055,   1060. 

of   popular   festivals 398-99,    401-2 

of    public    meetings 47-48,     116,    388,    424, 

472,  542,  603,  905-6,   1053,   1054,  1055. 

of   public    inquiries 85,    603 

of  Republican  courts 250-51,  356  ,621,  697, 

732,    761-62,   979,    1001,    1012-13. 

of  truth  about   Ireland 90 

by  British-controlled  cables  and  press. ..  784-86 

unwarranted     388-89 

Swanwick,    Mrs.    H.    M 538,    999 

letter  to  Commission 617-19 

Swanzy,  District  Inspector 362,   738 

indicted   for  murder 80,   363 

killed 149-1 50,  570 

Sweden 467 

cost  of  government  exceeded  by  Irish  taxes.    501 

Switzerland    435 

comparative   cost   of   government 501 

Swords,  shot  up  by  troops 824 

Sydney,    Sir   Henry 478 


Tangney,  John,  Ex-Constable,  resignation  from 

Constabulary    401-2 

testimony   of 390 ff 

Taxes,    income,    chief    direct   tax 729 

collected  by   Republican   Government 164, 

524.  976. 
increased    by    Republican    Government....    955 

indirect    730 

Ireland    exploited    by     Britain     for 163-64, 

236-38,  486,  487-90,  500-1,  729-30,  945-52 

local   rates 561,    562,    728,   942,   954-56 

paid    to    Republican    bodies 731-32,    734, 

954- 

prove     Ireland    self-supporting 954-55 

people  refuse  to  pay  to  England 164, 

697-98,  729- 

Taylor,    Sir   John 365 

Taylor,    Ralph,   testimony   of 886-88 

Taylor,  Captain  Shaw,  killed  by  land  rioters.  .  1006, 
1009,   1011. 

Temperance  movement,   Irish 250,   423.    695 

Volunteers  pledged  to   sobriety 87,  695 

suppress  drunkenness 695,   697,    708 

Templebredan,   raid  on 54 

Templemore,    miracle    at 127,   130 

shot    up    35,  824 

town    hall    burned.... 35,    127 

Volunteers  maintain    order   in 128,    173 

Terrorism     1 60,    621,    622-23 

deaths   from  terror   and   exposure 117, 

742-43,   917-18. 
effect  on  economic  life.  ..  .38-40,   1 16-17,  655-56 

families   driven   from   home   by 112-13, 

1 37,    524,   667,   692,   710,   810,   811,   917. 


Thurles  Page 

feis   suppressed 399 

growing    worse 48-49,     773 

in    Abbeyfeale 666 

in   Balbriggan 101-19,    137 

111   Cork 7^,   80.    522,   604-5,   633,   638,   653- 

56,  662-03,  742,  752-53,  756,  773-74.  7/6, 
790-91,    821,    828,    883. 

in   Dublin 49,   430,   592,   736,  863,   867 

in   Ennistymon 520-21 

in    Galway 130-35,    411-12, 

413,    509-n,    856,    857,    867. 

in     Headford 516 

in    Limerick 63-64,    82-83,    136,    520, 

580.    585.    589-90. 

in    Mallow 910,    912,    915, 

917-18,   919-20,  930-31. 

in    Queenstown 692-93,    706,    710-11 

in    Templemore 121-22 

in    Thurles 14-15 

in    Tuani 88-89,    408-9,     513, 

579,    604,   824,    1060-63. 

intensifies   determination    for    freedom 337, 

652,   661,   712,   851,   919-20,    1056. 

invasion    of    almshouse 678 

of    religious    services 397,    692 

military   campaign   of 160-61,    1053-58 

night    of    yelling,    burning    and    shooting....   105, 
37o]    912. 

of   convents 1037 

of   countryside 38,    59,    137,    455-56, 

503-4,    516,    522,    867,    988,    1040. 

of   prisoners 107,    108,    752-53,    778-79, 

780-84,    789-90,    1037,    1046,    1062. 

of  women  and  children 102,    132-33,  370, 

507,  516,  524,  600,  618,  622,  633,  638, 
654,  656,  662,  692,  699,  700,  704,  710, 
748-49,  756,  810-11,  816-18,  822,  856,  857, 
865,    883,    917-18,    1037,    1040. 

effect   of 19,   34-39,   524,   628-29,   632-33, 

638,  654-55,  656,  662,  710,  742,  748-49, 
778,   867-68,   917-18,    1062. 

on   city   streets 49,    521,   653-55,    656, 

666,    706,    713-14,    773-74,   883. 

prevalent    in    Ireland. 121-22,    137 

repudiated    by    resigning    Black-and-Tans.  .  598-99 

surpasses    Turks   in    Balkans 1058 

six    days   of 112-13 

wholesale    656,    864-67,    1054.    1055 

See    also    Indiscriminate    Shooting,    Threats, 
Torture. 

Terry,    Michael    A.,    affidavit 774-75 

Textile  industry 115,    156-57,   254 

workers  organized 115,  254,   434 

Thierrv,    Augustine 476 

Thomas,   J.    H S95,    1024 

duplicity    of 320-22 

only    sympathy    for    Irish    strikers 896 

urges  end   of   munitions   strike 1026 

Thomas,    Rev.     Norman     M.,     member    of    the 

Commission    viii,   311,    1S2 

selected   on   Mission   to   Ireland 5>j 

Thompson,     Sir     William 454 

Threats  by   Crown    forces 860,   987 

against  newspaper  men 50,   78S 

officer   admits   official   nature   of 791-92 

to    murder 20,    34,    408,     513,     570,     645, 

738-39.  752-53.  777.  788-89,  791,  815, 
817,  822,  858.  862,  914,  931,  1037,  1039- 
40,    1 04 1,    1062. 

attempt   to   extort   information   by 107, 

752-53.    755,    778779,    792,    856. 

papers  forced  to   publish 659,   788-S9 

to   sack   and   burn 34,    117-18,    12S, 

788,   816-17,   856,   908,    1041. 

to  stop   railwav   and   postal   service 623 

Thurles    '. 6/7,    122,    141 

absence   of   crime 9 

Cleary,    Michael,    shot 5 1-52 

courts   of 10 

elections ..7,    8,    11,    13 

hospital    commandeered    by    British 40 

industries    and    population 7 

military     occupation 10 


1102 


Times  Page 

religious    harmony 8 

shot   up   and   terrorized 14/f,   31,   823 

worse    than    Flanders 18 

town   hall   commandeered 39 

urban    council 6 

election   of 7,   8 

favors    Irish    independence 11 

Times,   Irish 993,    1036-37 

Times,    London 173,    519,    1064 

Times,  New  York.  162,  358-59,  626,  970,  1059,   1060 

Bolshevik   scare   unfounded 1047 

Tipperary     377,    390,    665 

captured   police   released   uninjured 794 

coroners'    inquests    suppressed 769-70 

creameries     destroyed 387 

destruction    in 715 

disruption   of   community   life 425 

fairs   and   markets   suppressed 387-88,    424 

feis    suppressed 398-99 

hay   ricks   burned 583-84 

partially   sacked    by   military 824 

South    Riding 421,   424 

Tithe    Wars 186,    237 

Toksvig,    Miss    Signe 6,    138 

testimony    of 174-182 

Tone,   Wolfe 186,    197,    1047 

Tories,    support    Carson 143,    205 

Torture   of  prisoners 107,    108,   756, 

778-79,    780-84,    789-90. 

Towns   shot  up,   sacked,   or  burned 14-17,   31. 

92,    97-102,     126,    520,    812-13,    822,    823, 
824,    1057,    1060. 

surpass    German    ravages    in    Belgium 822-23 

Townshend,    Miss   Caroline   M.,    testimony    of.  1000, 

1015-19,    1029-36,     1042-44. 
Trade   and   commerce.      See   under   Ireland. 

Tralee    50,    172,   455,  679,    1057 

captured    police    released    uninjured 795 

partially   sacked 823 

shops   closed 338 

shot    up    by    police 824 

Transportation.       See     Motor     Transport     and 
Railroads. 

Treason    against    Crown 143-45,    204 

Tricolor,   Irish 117,    375,    512,   691,    790 

Trim,  sacked  by  police 825 

Trinity    College 485 

Tuam,   Archbishop   of 604 

atrocities  in 88-89,   579-   604,    1060-63 

sacking   of 408-9,    513,    604,    824 

terrorism  in,   Exhibit  III 1060-63 

Tulane,   Mr.,  candidate   for   Council   chairman.      24 

deported    20 

Tuberculosis,    in    Belfast 561 

prevalence    of 454"55,    953 

Lister    lags    in    preventing 952-53 

Tulla    368 

sacked  by  police 824 

Turk,   Henry,   testimony   of 879-82 

Turk,   Misses,    assaulted 855 

Turner,    ex-soldier,    murdered 929-30 

Tyacke,    Assistant    Inspector   General,    resigns.  1056 

Tyrone,   County 555,    574,    762 

Tyranny,     petty 693 

Tyrrel,    Colonel,    captured    and    released    unin- 
jured        795 

U 

Ulster 174,   239,   466 

American    Civil   War   parallel 225-26 

Coercion  Act  not  applied  to 764 

conditions  different   from   South   Ireland.  .  178-79 

counties   of 76 

delegation    ....798,   940,   941,   942,   943,   945,   958 

destruction    in 898,    899 

elections,    Republicans   elected    in    Belfast.  ..  225, 

475-76,   55o,   555- 
Unionists  lose  in   Ulster.. 154,   156;!,   555,    1056 
England  keeps  divided 230-31,   251-52, 

476,   616,   621,    1031,    1034-35. 

English    plantation    in 179,    336,   477,    616 

factories 78,   179,   553.   565,  941 

position    in    Republic 253,    Soo-t,    612,    1029 

history    of 175,    179,    6t6 


Unemployment  Page 

Home  Rule  held  up  (1914) 146,  204-5, 

206,   540-4 1,   574- 

Home    Rule   supported    (1920) 554,    574,   845 

independence  projected  by  Carson.  ...  144,   204-5 

labor,   conditions   of 179,    565 

expulsion    of    Nationalist    workers '57, 

174-75.    176,    180,   555-57- 

basis    political,    not    religious 555-56, 

567,    1050. 

Expelled    Workers'    Committee 550, 

566-67,    571,    1049-50. 
kept    divided    by    religious    agitation.       See 

under   Manufacturers,   below, 
organization      dissolving      religious      preju- 
dices     158,    435,    553-54,    555.    573"74 

political    question    paramount 440 

socialistic    1049-50 

supports    munitions    strike 896 

supports     self-determination 435 

threatens  hold   of  Carsonism 158,   555 

wages    157,   439,   447,    553,    561 

loss    of    population 940 

manufacturers  promote  religious  fanaticism.  79, 
156-59,  171,  178,  180-81,  254-55,  434. 
436,   440,    557-58,    1034-35. 

why    Unionists 436 

new    national    consciousness 554,    1042-44 

partisan  administration  of  law  and  order .  563-64, 
606. 

personal    observations    in 549-50 

policy  adopted  by   British  Government.  ..  .544-47 

effect   of 609 

position    in    Republic 253,    500-1,    612,    1026 

possibility   of   settlement   in 435-36,   549,   616 

Parliament    . 606,    612 

capital    levy    prohibited 555,    574,    1049 

labor  domination  feared.  ...  1 58,  555,  574,  1049 

Protestants  in   South  Ireland 8-9,    159, 

379,   422,   423-24.    432-33,   440,   606-7. 
Rebellion:     British     Government     refuses     to 


205,    543- 

guns  imported  from  Germany 144,  204, 

206-7,   607,    648,   651. 

King    prohibits    Carson's    arrest 144 

leaders    of 1 43~44 

supported    by    English    aristocrats 143, 

205,   540-41- 

treason    against    Crown '43-5,    204 

union    with    Germany   threatened 204-5 

religious    issue:    an   insincere   excuse 616 

artificial    78-79,    156-59,    171,  «78, 

180-81.    432-33.    434,    440,    476. 

created    by    England 251-52, 

476,    616,    621,    1031,    1034. 

dissolved   by   labor   organization 15S, 

435.    553-54,    555.    573"74- 

by   personal   contact 171,    176,    564,    565 

fostered  to  prevent  labor  organization...  79, 
156-59,  178,  180-81,  434,  436,.  557-58, 
1034-35. 

monster    of    religious    prejudice 180-81 

Republicanism,    growth    of 172,    432, 

564-65,    567,    572,   845-46,   898,    1056. 

school    question 433,    440-42,    551-53 

shipyard  riots 157,   174,  175-76,   180,  555-57 

Solemn  League  and  Covenant 205,  559 

Socialism    in 1 049-50 

tuberculosis    neglected 561,    9S2-53 

Volunteers.      See    V olunteers.    Ulster. 

wealth   of,   less   than   Leinster 940-42 

See      also      Belfast,      Protestants,      Religions 
Issue. 

Ulstermen,    refuse   Home   Rule    Bill 146 

Republicans    432 

Unemployment    451,  972,    1029 

caused    by    burning    of    creameries,    factories 

and   towns 65,   94-95,    m-12,   254, 

339.     448-50,     581,     589-90,     842,     915-16, 
1029. 

by   expulsion   of   Belfast   workers 157, 

174,    176,    180,   555-57- 
by    railway    strike 589,     1028 


1103 


Unanimity  Page 

by    repression    of    Irish    industries 448-50, 

5S1,    589-90,    936. 

by     terrorism 655-56 

insurance     918-19,     1029 

suffering  from.  .  589-90,  610,  656.  842-43,  918-19 

Unanimity    of    people    for    Republic 29-30, 

59,  73,  86,  222-24.  244.  337.  436-37,  456, 
474.  500.  519,  546,  621,  024.  66r,  678.  712, 
736,  850-51.  882,  919-20.  1038-39,  1044, 
1055- 

Unionism,    stronghold    of    capitalism 555.    561 

Unionists    ...189,   267.   309,  364.   434,  435.   456,  696 

alienated    by    Government    policy 607, 

912.    950-51.    1039. 

P.albriggan     elections 93~94 

condemn   excesses   under    Cromwell 847 

counties    receive    English    grants 760 

defeated    in    Ulster    elections 223-24. 

225,   475-76.    550.    555,    760.    105b. 

irreconcilable    Unionism    dead 522-23 

leaders    interviewed 550,    624 

spurn    rest    of    Ireland 560-62 

oppose    proportional    representation 225 

opposed   Land   Acts 943 

property  destroyed 64.    111-12,    125-26, 

2_54,    607,   662,   832-54,   912,   915. 

property    spared 923 

recognize    Republican    Government 524, 

734.    9S0,    983-84. 

rich   mill   owners   support 435 

reason    for 436 

Southern    579,    641 

favor    independence 155,     1039 

oppose  new   Home    Rule 846 

prosperity    of 502.    606 

want   dominion   home   rule 155 

ridicule    Catholic    menace 606-7 

use   Republican   courts 155.   247,   251,   999 

United   Irishmen 231,    232-33 

Irishwomen     619 

United    States ' 140 

agreement    with    Cuba 255 

army     1 48,    665 

forbids    reprisals 666 

punishes    terrorism 673 

Cabinet    358 

citizens,    assaulted    and    beaten 790, 

874-77,  ?'79,  885.   886.   889-90. 

blacklisted     368 

citizenship  ignored 55,   679.   872,   875,   890 

insulted     691-92,     872 

property   confiscated 56-57 

searched    55-57,  679,  681,   690 

stolen     249 

robbed     877,    888,    890 

searched    71,    72,   679,   681,   682, 

705,    711-12,    S71-73.   887,   891. 

Congress    235,    467 

Congressmen      iii 

Continental    Congress 169 

consul  hinders  coming  of  witnesses.  .  534-37,  998 

Department    of    State 969 

affidavit     of     English     witnesses     submitted 

to    537" 

complaint  of  outrages  on   American   sailors 

filed    with 877 

immigration    laws    of 768 

passports    vised 511 

flag  insulted . 685-86,   687 

friendlv   relations   with    Britain    menaced...        iii, 
686,   872. 

Government    x,    873,    971/1 

Mail   Steamship   Company 619,   963,   966,   969 

passenger     service     to     Cork     pro- 
hibited     168,    619-20 

Navy    665 

President     475,    61  1 

press,   fed   British-censored   news 785 

gives    small   space    to    Irish   atrocities.  ..  785-86 

Senate    467 

Senators     iii 

Shipping   Board 619,   870 

trade   with    Ireland.      See   American    Trade. 
Unknown   destination 46,   694,   697,    709,    1007 


Walsh  Page 

Urban   councils,  arrest   of  members.  .  20-2 1 ,   24.   72U 
declare    allegiance    to    Dail    Eireann 155, 

724-25.    894. 
elections,    Republicans    win 29-30.    154-56. 

-44-45-     475.     546,     721.     7-^4,     894,     1014, 

1055-56. 
grants   withheld   to    paralyze 168,    586, 

726-27,    730-31. 

murder  of   members 510-11,    721-22 

attempted    31 

See  also  Local  Government. 

V 

Valley    Forge 203 

\  igilance    committees.     Belfast 558 

Cork     652-53 

Veto    bill 146 

V^ice-Regal    Commission    on    Education 441 

Victoria,    Queen 193,    240 

Vitality,   effect   of   poverty   on 454-55 

Volunteers,  Irish 76,   118,    125,    127,    150,    162, 

165,   204,   262,   305,   334,   384,   638,   641. 
armed  warfare  begun. 212-13,  352-54,    1027,   1028 

arms   imported 145,   206-7 

secured    by    raids 90,    365, 

592,    650,    687-88,    793-96. 

bombed  to  death 650,   800-1 

capture    British    mail 258-59,    696 

character    87,    695.    708 

constitute    Republican    army 524,    649.    972 

Convention    208 

declare    for    Republic 207-8,    241-42 

discipline    150,    173,    694-95 

Easter    uprising 216-17,     218-19,     345 

Lord   Mayor    MacSwinev   an   officer   of 266. 

268,    274,    298. 

dying    trust    in 318 

effect   of  death   on 233 

maintain    order 128,    173,    378,    651, 

685,  695,  697,   708-9,  886,   1006-7.' 

number    650 

of    1782 228 

divided    by    Pitt 230-31,    232,    251 

organize   to    resist    aggression ....  205-6,    211,    648 

purpose    of 87,    695 

rapid   growth    of 208.    210.    212,    649 

Redmond    demands    control    of 208-9 

shot   while   prisoners 160,   688-89.    767-69 

unarmed     134,    351,    357"58 

sobriety    of.  .  .  . 87,    695,    697,    708 

supported   by    Cumann    na   m"Ban  .  .  .  .  21  1-12,   628 

war   against    England 352-54,    519 

See  also  Irish  Republican  Army  and  Police, 
Irish. 

Volunteers,    National 208-10 

Volunteers,    Ulster 144,    211,    1034 

armed    and    drilled 541.    ^39 

Carson   starts 205,    1057 

Catholic    neighbors    protected    by 171 

English    aristocrats    support ....  143,    205,    540-41 

import   arms 144,    204,   205,    206-7.    541 

threaten    rebellion 143-44.    204-7,    54°~4i 

British       Government       refuses      to       sup- 
press     142-45-    205.    54'~43 

W 

Waddell,   Mrs.,   Protestant    Republican 77 

Wages,    dollar    a    week 429 

effect   of   organization    on 437_39,    613 

minimum    wage    law    not    applied 447 

standards    of   living   and 438-39.    5b5 

starvation,    in    Belfast 78,    157. 

439,   44".    553.    561. 

in     Dublin 429-30.     450-1 

Wakefield   prison 258.    269,   279 

Wales     596,    63 1 

Walker,    George,    shot    and    bayoneted 769 

Walsh,   Miss  Anna 620,   634 

home    repeatedly    raided 656-57 

testimony    of 653-64 


1104 


Walsh  Page 

Walsh,     Senator     David     I.,     evidence     intro- 
duced  455-56,   479",    503-4 

evidence,   specific,   wanted 492,   503-4 

member  of  the  Commission viii 

Walsh,    Hon.    Frank    P.,   of   counsel 6ff,    92ff, 

183/F,    430,    636/F,    890,    1059. 

Walsh,    James    Joseph 629 

attempted    murder    of 658 

Walsh,    Louis,    elected    in    Ulster 475~76 

Walsh,     Maurice,     life    sought    by     Black-and- 

Tans    380,   381,  382,   385,   427 

Walsh,      Councillor      Michael,      family      desti- 
tute     515-16 

murdered    509-11,  512-13,   603,  859-61 

no     public     inquest     held 861 

refused    services    of    priest 509,    860-61 

raids   on   home 507,    511,    855-58 

restrictions    on    funeral 512 

shop    wrecked    and    robbed 511 

"Walsh,    Mrs.,   home   repeatedly   raided 384 

Walsh,    Miss    Susanna 620 

arrested    for    relief    work 645-46 

health    shattered    by    raids 632-33 

testimony    of 627-53 

Walsh,   Senator   Thomas 182,   297 

AVandsworth    prison 270 

War,    aggressive,    renounced    by    Ireland 1027 

aims    ix,   214-15,   596,   758,   848,   850-51 

atrocities.     See  Atrocities. 

cost   of,    against    Ireland 591,    897-98,    950 

Britain   extracting  in  taxes 946-47 

contracts    denied    Irish    industries 445-47 

declaration  of,   against  Germany ...  146,   207,   541 

against    England 212-13,    352,    621 

Irish   alienated    from 145-46 

on   defenseless   civilians 374,   711, 

865-66,   932,   934,    1053-58. 

on   women    and   children 124,    133, 

531,  647,   712-13- 

on   wounded ;•••; •. 1044-45,    1063 

restrictions   on    Irish    industries 940 

rules  of,  violated  by  England.  .260-62,  467,   1059 

state  of 374.    524.   621-22,    808,    932 

admitted    by    Lloyd    George 202,    595 

two   lines  of   conflict 979 

zone    around    Limerick 70 

Warburton,     Colonel 467 

Warning  of  impending  murders.     See  Threats. 

Washington,  George 127 

crime   of 166 

picture    destroyed 57 

Waterford    138,    223,    419,    715 

cooperative   meat    industry    organized 973 

suppressed    984-89 

Waycross,    creamery    destroyed 387 

Wealth.      See   Ireland,    Wealth   of. 

Weedle,  J.   G.,   statement 924 

store    looted    and    wrecked 924 

Weekly  Summary,  The,  incites  to  violence.  592,  624 

Welby,    Lord 489 

West   Cannon,    U.    S.    S.,   sailors    held    up   and 

assaulted     870-92 

Wells,    Alfred 502 

F.,    American    consul,    hinders   witnesses.  .  534-37 
Captain   V.    H.,    searches  American   citizen..      56 

West   Britons 190,    196,   222,   234,   333 

West    Meath,    County 465 

fuel    industry    crushed 466-67 

land    problem 498 

Westminster 188,    189,    196-97. 

229,  465,  988,  989. 

abstention  from 204.  465,   545,   548 

Irish  Party   189,   524 

no    hope    from 466 

Westport     495.    5°6 

Wexford    150 

County     402,     715,     993 

religious    worshippers    beaten 1 038 

Whately.     Archbishop,     censors      Irish     school 

books     192,    202 

Whig,   The,   Belfast 175 

Whiskey    tax    supports    education 194 

Whitby,    Miss 619 


Women  Page 

Whitegate,    men    taken    from    and    shot ...  .373-74 

Wiley,  Mr.,  K.  C,  drops  defense  of  police 364 

Wilkinson,    Ellen    C 531,    532,    535-36, 

544,    549,    559,     577,    578,    620,     1060. 

testimony    of 578-626 

Wilkinson,    Mary 1 84 

William    III,    King 230,    550-51,    555 

Williams,    Lily,    statement    of 1035 

Wilson,  President 139,  214-15,  617,   1011 

Windows   demolished 14-15,   72-73,  83, 

102,  112,  351,  408,  520,  522,  588,  686, 
696,  705,  707.  7!0,  741,  812,  822,  823- 
24,   848,   862,   884,   912. 

Witnesses,    at    MacCurtain    inquest 350-62 

of   the    Commission  : 

American    consul    exacts    pledge    from....    535 

hinders     coming 534~37 

attempted    murder    of 80,    64J. 

correspondence     seized 900-1 

examination   of  by  counsel 6 

expenses   paid   by    Commission 6,    53 

invited,   from   England 4,    5,   517 

impartially    4,    5,    53 

solely  by  Commission ....  53,  69,  74,  91,  718 

index    of xii-xiv 

scrupulous   exactitude x,    311,    931-32, 

Wolfe,    J.,    Crown    solicitor 660 

Wolff,    G.    W 489,    490 

Women       (and       children),       American,       in- 
sulted      691-92 

arrested    218-19,  327,   645-46,   744,   1058 

babies,  black  bread  and  no  milk 405-6 

brutal  treatment  of 88,   89,   381,   564. 

587,  600,  623,  646,  656,  669-70,  712-14, 
744,  747-48,  750-51.  756,  785,  810-11. 
817-18,    1040,    1041-42. 

Cumann   na   m'Ban   organized 207-8,   299 

cutting  of  hair  as  reprisal ...  .600— 1,  810— 11,  855 
destitution    from    raids,    robbery,    and    burn- 
ings  515-16,   570-72.   603 

death   from   fright  and  exposure 117, 

742-43,    917-18. 

driven     from     homes 1 12-13,     137. 

370-71,  524,  564.  S83-84.  600,  602,  605, 
606,  623,  644,  667,  669-70,  692,  710,  749, 
810-11,    911,    1040,    1057. 

insane    by    cruelty    and    terror 88,    91S 

fired    upon    by    Crown    forces 31,    113, 

618,  644,  654-55,  656,  713,  778,  810,  857, 
865,    1040. 

mother   with    child   roughly   searched 404-5 

murdered     300,    809-10,     867, 

1040,    1058,   1060. 

personal    indignities 381,    691-92,    712- 

'3.    749-51,    810-11,    1040-41,    1058. 

raids   on   unprotected 82,   384,   508-9. 

583-84,  587,  622,  630-31,  632,  636,  644. 
647,  656,  669-70,  741,  748-49,  778,  810-11, 
817-18.  857,  901,  1037.  1040,  1041. 
1067-68. 

rape    75i,    J040 

attempted      749-5 ! 

no  evidence  of 382,   564,  600 

searched    381-82,    404.    5 '3, 

630,    632,    638,    682,    691,    712-13,    887-8S. 

shot  and  wounded 403-4,  456. 

503,    601,    654,    712-14,    810-11,   880,    1058. 

spared    521 

spirit    of     299,    301, 

^06.    315,    606,    652,    661,    919-20. 

suffering   inflicted   on 203,    299-300, 

337-38,  51S-16,  531-32,  564,  571-72,  710, 
712-13,  748-49,  750-51,  753-  778,  785, 
917-18,     1041,    1062. 

terrorized    102,   132-33,  370, 

507,  516,  524,  600,  618,  622,  633,  638, 
654,  656,  662,  692,  699,  700,  704,  710. 
742,  748-49,  753,  756,  810-11,  816-18. 
822,  856,  857,  86s,  883,  917-18,  1037. 
1040. 


no; 


Women's  Page 

effect    of 19,    38-39,    370,    524, 

628-29,  632-33,  638,  654-55,  656,  662,  710, 
742,   748-49.    778,   867-68,   917-18,    1062. 

sheltered    by    Constabulary 917,    933 

wages  and  working  conditions 157,   429-30, 

439.   447,   450-1,   553,   561,    565. 

war    on 124,    133,    531,    647,    712-13 

widows     682-83 

witness   assault    or   murder  of   husbands    and 

fathers    102,   281,    349-50, 

633-35.    657-58.    662.    813-14. 
See  also  Children  and  Girls. 
Women's       International      League.      American 

Section    531 

British    Section 531-532 

demonstrations   to-  inform   people 532,    572 

letter    to    Commission 617—19 

Mission   to   Ireland.  ...  1 14,    531,   532,   560,    57S 

no   Catholics   on 561 

reason     for 531-32 

report   of 532.   560,    595,   620—25 

promotes   peace   with    Ireland 537-40 

Irish      Section 979 

founded 532 

proposal    for    peace 1050-52 


Zimracr  Page 

purpose    531,    979 

Women's    Trade    Union    League 1001 

Wood,    L.    Hollingsworth,    Chairman    of    Com- 
mission  vi,    3)t,    lion 

Wool   trade,   crushed   by   England 481-83,   585 

Workers'     commonwealth 159-60, 

163,    484-85,    1047,    1048. 

Workhouse  raided  and   terrorized 678 

commandeered     for     barracks 126 

World,    New    York 138,    501 

safe   for    democracy 215 

Wormwod   Scrubbs   prison 22,   34 

Wounded,    war   on 1044-45 

Wrangel,     Baron,     aided     by     American     Red 

Cross    61 1-12 


W 


am 


U8-39,    4J 


Youghal    126-27,    283,    310,    656 

raids  and   destruction   in 126-27,    812 

Young    Ireland,    excerpt    from 1000-12 


Zimmer,  Heinr 
Cultin 


Irish  Element  in  Mediaeval 
473,    477 


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